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==Style discussions elsewhere==
== Vertical space, specifically in the "footer" ==
<!-- START PIN -->{{Pin message}}<!-- ] 06:15, 18 June 2029 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1876457735}}<!-- END PIN -->
Add a link to new discussions at top of list and indicate what kind of discussion it is (move request, RfC, open discussion, deletion discussion, etc.). Follow the links to participate, if interested. Move to ''Concluded'' when decided, and summarize conclusion. Please keep this section at the top of the page.


===Current===
There are one or two editors who have devoted at least a few hundred separate edits to the reduction of vertical space in articles, often at the end of the article, between the text of the last section (external links, references) and usually the first navbox template (but sometime just above other "footer" elements like the bottom of the page itself, category or other tags like persondata). The type of vertical spacing removed is most often a simple double blank line, but other kinds like <nowiki>{{-}}</nowiki>, <nowiki><br></nowiki> and variations, or a double blank like containing one ] are also among the constructs eliminated. Does the MOS make any recommendations in this regard? I've searched the archives, but couldn't find anything conclusive... ] (]) 20:37, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
(newest on top)
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* ] - A ]/] question
* ] – Plural possessive ] question
* ]
* ] – to use policy-based material on "Christ" found in an essay but more useful in a guideline. (Nov. 2024)
* ] – Has stylistic implications (punctuation, leading "The", etc.) despite not being intrisically an MoS matter. (Nov. 2024)
* ] - use of flag icons in infobox per ] (Sep.–Nov. 2024) – See also prior ].
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=== Vertical space: Discussion about previous discussions ===
'''Pretty stale but not "concluded":'''
{{formerly|Discussion about previous discussions}}
* RfC needed on issue raised at ] (June–July 2004, archived without resolution). Presently, the royalty/nobility wikiprojects have imposed putting British peerage titles in place of names in biographical infoboxes, against ], ], and the template's documentation. Either the community will accept this as a best practice and the guidelines changed to accomodate it, or it should be undone and the infobox used consistently and as-intended.
* A ] revision RfC needs to be drafted, based on ] (Dec. 2023 – Jan. 2024, archived without resolution). JOBTITLES remains a point of confusion and conflict, which the guidelines are supposed to prevent not cause.
* ] – Involves ] (plus ], ], ]). Covers more than thread name implies. (Dec. 2023 – Jan. 2024) ''Result:'' Stalled without resolution; at least 3 options identified which should be put to an RfC.
* ] – Involves ], ], ], ], etc. (Sep. 2023 –) ''Result:'' Still unresolved, though consensus seems to lean toward permitting lower-case "prophet" when needed for disambiguation, but no agreement yet on specific guideline wording.
* ] – Specifically in tables, possibly elsewhere. ] (at the table "General guidelines on use of units") has an example of existing use that is being challenged, and material at ] is also at issue. (Dec. 2023 –) ''Result:'' Still unresolved.
* ] – Help page is conflicting with ] and ] on a technical point. (Aug. 2023 – Jan. 2024) ''Result:'' No objection to fixing it, and a suggestion to just do it ]ly, but the work actually has to be done.
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:] Note that bots do remove the blank space you are talking about so adding spacing would be oppositional and ].] (]) 08:09, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
'''Capitalization-specific:'''
:: I don't quite see the consensus there, well, for anything. You certainly supported your own proposal. ] opposed adding it to the MOS ans so did ] although the latter seemed to like the whitespace, but wanted it added via the nav templates themselves. (Is this even feasible?) ] also preferred the visuals ''with whitespace''; he also opposed your article edits removing the spaces. ] opposed your proposed addition to MOS but he also opposed the "mass addition of spacing". ] supported adding them manually at least to some articles. ] and ] did not have a clear opinion on the visuals, but agreed with you that site-wide solution is desirable. Rich even said a site-wide solution was already introduced by CSS, but even you, Curb Chain, seem to think no such thing is currently in place. That doesn't read like much of a consensus to me. Some issues were confounded, so it's probably best to separate them. ] (]) 11:30, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
{{Excerpt| Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters|Current|subsections=no}}
:I am revising the heading of this subsection from <b>Discussion about previous discussions</b> to <b>Vertical space: Discussion about previous discussions</b>, in harmony with ], point 13 (Section headings). Please see .
}}
:—] (]) 00:40, 29 June 2013 (UTC)


===Concluded===
=== Vertical space: Current MOS rules ===
{{collapse top|left=y|title=Extended content}}
{{formerly|Current MOS rules}}
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* ] – Use en dash not hyphen in four paired names? ''Result:'' Yes.
:] (version of ) treats navigation templates and persondata sections and category sets and stub templates as sections. ] (version of ) says "Include one blank line above the heading, and optionally one blank line below it, for readability in the edit window." These entities lack headings in the usual sense, so a blank line would be placed immediately above the border or content of any one of them.
* ] – In short, should we use odd-ball stylization of band names and the like to match their marketing? (July–Aug. 2024) ''Result:'' No formal closure, but a clear consensus against this idea, and against the underlying "conflict" premise; the proponent simply did not understand the policy.
:—] (]) 14:56, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
** Various simultaneously executed RMs by the same proponent all concluded against the desired over-stylizations (usually ALL-CAPS) – some by affirmative consensus against, some by no consensus to move.
Well, since they have no heading, it's also wikilegal to have, for example:
* ] – Should British peers use their peerage title in place of their name in infoboxes? (June–July 2004) ''Result:'' archived without resolution. This needs to be RfCed.
<source lang="html4strict">
* ] – ]: "Shays'" or "Shays's"? ''Result:'' "Shays's". No objective rationale was presented for an exception to the guideline, and evidence shows "Shays's" common in source material even if "Shays'" is also common, especially in older sources.
Last sentence of the article.
* ] – Should multiple entries be formatted as a list or a single phrase? (Apr.–May 2024) ''Result:'' 4:1 against proposed change to a list format; alternative idea at end neither accepted nor rejected.
<!-- mandatory blank line before the nonexistent heading -->
* ] – Do flags in this infobox serve a "useful purpose" per ] or are they primarily decorative and should be removed? (Apr.–May 2004) ''Result:'' 3:1 against inclusion; the 1 did not read or understand the entire guideline. See also later ].
<!-- no real heading (zero-length) --><!-- optional blank line after the nonexistent heading -->
* ] – Primarily on a recent habit of military-conflict articles having collages of 4, 6, or even more images in their infobox. (Mar.–May 2024) ''Result:'' No formal closure, but a clear consensus against this practice; image galleries (when appropriate at all per ]) belong in the article body.
{{some nav template}}
* ] – ] (and ]) in "day of year" (DoY) article candidates for "featured list". (Feb. 2024) ''Result:'' No formal closure, and little clear consensus other than that ] / ] apply, as does ].
</source>
* ] – On ] vs. ], etc. (Jan. 2024) ''Result:'' No clear consensus reached; a great deal of sourcing is provided, but there's a feeling that real-world usage varies considerably on a case-by-case basis, so ] might invididually trump ]. Worth revisiting in a few years to see whether source usage has shifted.
That gives two separating blank lines, the 2nd one being optional, but MOS-valid.] (]) 20:29, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
* ] (moved from WP:VPPOL) – Yet another round of this long-term, multi-RfC process. Consensus about "deadnames" seemed possible this time but was mostly elusive. (Dec. 2023 – Jan. 2024) ''Result:'' no consensus to change the wording of MOS:GENDERID based on this proposal; consensus against changing "should be included" to "may be included".

** Related: See numerous previous deadname-related and more general GENDERID discussions listed below.
Also I'm not sure if those rules imply anything about
* ] – Proposal to merge a "guideline in all but name" into MoS. (Jan. 2024) ''Result:'' consensus to promote to a guideline (after some significant revisions).
<source lang="html4strict">
* ] – Peripherally related to ] and ]. (Jan. 2024) ''Result:'' Consensus to increase to 250px.
Last sentence of the article.
* ] – ] has long been considered too complicated and hard to follow. (Dec. 2023 – Jan. 2024) ''Result:'' input stalled out over the holidays, then it was archived without resolution.
{{-}}
** ] – Abortive, unclear RfC that resolved nothing. (May–Sep. 2023) ''Result:'' unanimously opposed.
<!-- mandatory blank line before the nonexistent heading -->
* ] – Involves ], ], ], ]. (Oct.2023 – Jan. 2024) ''Result:'' Archived without closure. There does not seem to be a compelling reason for this ALL-CAPS behavior in the template/module, but it was still happening in Nov. 2024.
<!-- no real heading (zero-length) -->{{some nav template}}
** Discussion re-opened at ] (Nov. 2024). Changed to lowercase ; we'll see if that sticks.
</source>
* ] – Involves ], ], ], ], ], etc. (Oct. 2023 – Jan. 2024) ''Result:'' No formal closure, but there seems to be no appetite for diverging from ], and the OP commingled unrelated cases like stagenames of real people.
because {{tl|-}} is not a blank line in code-editing mode. ] (]) 20:49, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
* ] – About use of {{tlx|sronly}} around table captions (which are primarily for screen readers) to hide them from the usual non-screen-reader view, only when their content repeats what is in the table headers. (Nov.–Dec. 2023) ''Result'': Archived without firm resolion. As there was but one opposer of the idea, there is no consensus against doing this. If more opposition arose or some reason, open an RfC about it.
: I'm suprised that you would make the claim that "one or two editors" make these edits. They are completely covered by MOS, so I'm ''not'' surprised that I'm only aware of one of two editors that '''do''' add these whitespaces: One admits that he has bad eyesight, the other only ever mention "better looks" for a reason.
* ] – Involves ]. (Oct. 2023 – Feb. 2024) ''Result:'' Thinly attended, but there does seem to be a linguistics standard to render ]s in {{sc2|smallcaps}}, so this has been accounted for and added to the exception lists at ] (since our articles are consistently doing it based on that sourcing).
:* First and formost: "Modifications in font size, blank space, and color are an issue for the Misplaced Pages site-wide style sheet, and should be reserved for special cases only." - That alone makes it clear that '''any''' ad-hoc style changes should be avoided.
* ] – On ] and whether to add another example to it. (Oct. 2023) ''Result'': Discussion archived without a clear conclusion.
:* Later on, the MOS explicitly forbids exactly these comments: "Check that your invisible comment does not inadvertently change the formatting, for example by introducing white space in read mode."
* ] – On use of a template to link Korean characters to Wiktionary (Jan. 2024). ''Result'': general consensus to not do that excessive linking; and a bot request made to clean it up.
:* There is also ]: "Comments in the wikicode added by <!-- Comment --> can contribute to whitespace. Format the comment to avoid this, "
* ] – Use an en dash instead of a hyphen? ''Result'': Withdrawn
:* Last, ] makes exactly the same point: "Inappropriate uses for hidden text Creating whitespace."
*] – Move review on Pākehā settlers vs. European settlers in New Zealand, related to ], ], ], ] (Feb. 2024). ''Result:'' There were many steps in this process but ultimately ] was moved to ].
: The first point is the most important. While the other three might go either way, the first point can't really be any different: The alternative would be that every article would constantly be battled for formatting, with devastating effects (among others) to WP:ACCESS and mobile devices.
* ] – To treat word-substitutions ("U" for "You", "❤️" for "Heart", {{nowrap|"..."}} for elided wording), as "words" for the purposes of a particular line-item about title-case treatment. (Dec. 2023 – Jan. 2024) ''Result:'' Done, with unanimous support.
: There is no other way, if you want to change the space, go change the style sheet. --] (]) 19:16, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
* ] – To merge a line-item (about stylization of stage/pen names) out of MOS:INITIALS (where the one of the examples is only semi-pertinent anyway) and into ], leaving behind a cross-reference to MOS:TM from ]. (Nov.–Dec. 2023) ''Result:'' Because of some things that apply to personal not corporate names, this ended up not being practical; intead the MOS:BIO material was cleaned up and cross-references between the two MOS sections was improved; description at: ]. No objections or other issues have come up.
:: I'm not convinced that the intent of the first sentence is two prohibit two blank lines in wiki code anywhere. The context with fonts and colors seems to be about changing the ] of fonts using <nowiki><span></nowiki> etc. If the intended reading of that rule is to prohibit two blank lines of wiki code, then the prohibition needs to be stated explicitly, because it's far too tenuous of an inference. As for the rules about the comments, they don't prohibit adding a comment to a double-blank line if the double blank line is ''intentional''. ] (]) 21:19, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
* ] – Proposal to add something to ]. (Oct.–Dec. 2023) ''Result:'' "no consensus as to whether or how to standardize ISBNs or whether to subject them to a CITEVAR-like rule .... The closest thing we have to a consensus here is that spaces (option 4) should not be used."
::: You are far too literal in your understanding of style sheets. '''Every''' visual aspect of a web page should be handled by style sheets. In many ways, if it ''could'' be done with a style sheet, it ''should'' be done with a style sheet. This is not only true for Misplaced Pages, it's true for every web page.
* ] – About changing ] to specify a format (new or otherwise) for betting-odds ratios. (Oct.–Dec. 2023) ''Result:'' No formal closure, but apparent general agreement that the <code>:</code> style for ratios in general applies to odds ratio in particular like the rest, and MOS:RATIOS updated to say this.
::: If you miss an explicit prohibition of "two blank lines of wiki code", would you not also miss an explicit prohibition of "three blank lines of wiki code"? What about four?
* ] – Primarily a matter of article title, but there are related issues such as capitalisation. (Nov. 2023) ''Result:'' basically stalled out, without resolution/action. Specific revision proposal is needed.
::: I already mentioned the alternative: If visual aspects of the article would be subject to ad-hoc changes in HTML, many articles would suffer from constant back-and-forth between various ways to manage white space. WP:ACCESS would suffer, as would mobile devices.
* ] – Also involves ]. RfC on "season 3, episode 7" vs. "season three, episode seven" styles (and probably also "seventh season" vs. "7th season", etc.). (Oct.–Nov. 2023) ''Result:'' "season and episode numbers should be expressed as numerals in tables, headings, and article body" (revision of a previous, less clear close).
::: Please state a few advantages of dealing with this issue in other ways than in the style sheet. --] (]) 21:44, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
* ] – On how WP uses terms like "terrorist/terrorism" and "freedom fighter", specifically to add a requirement "these words should only be used in quotations or referencing third-party use of the term". (Oct. 2023) ''Result:'' "nearly unanimously opposed".
::: I wondered about your use of ''intentional''. It turns out that BMK POV-pushed his view of thing into the MOS. Not for the first time, and he was told after the first time that he shouldn't do it. --] (]) 21:51, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
* ] – Involves ], ], etc. (Sep.–Oct. 2023) ''Result:'' "rough consensus to allow for lowercase or capital letters after dashes or colons in article titles, section titles, and list items".
:::: ... ] (]) 23:10, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
* ] – ] / ] and Northern Ireland again. (Sep.–Oct. 2023) ''Result:'' No formal closure, but near-unanimous consensus against using national flags as ethnicity symbols.
:I am revising the heading of this subsection from <b>Current MOS rules</b> to <b>Vertical space: Current MOS rules</b>, in harmony with ], point 13 (Section headings). Please see .
* ] – Involves ] and could have implications for what the guideline says due to wildfire news bringing many more editorial eyes to that page than to ]. (Aug.–Sep. 2023) ''Result:'' Archived without closure or any clear consensus; the general gist seems to be that the state of Hawaii is named Hawaii, the island is named Hawaiʻi, and diacritics (] and ]) should not be suppressed in the more localized names (and the US Geological Survey, which sets official placenames, along with the Hawaiʻi Board on Geographic Names, which basically tells USGS what to do in Hawaii/Hawaiʻi, both agree).
:—] (]) 00:40, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
* ] – ] stuff. (Aug. 2023) ''Result:'' Not moved. Lots of invalid arguments, and confused attempt to pit ] against MoS (COMMONNAME is not a style policy, never has been one, and never will be; every proposal to incorporate a style matter into a policy has failed).

* ] – Wikiproject propsal to change ] or ]. (Aug. 2023) ''Result:'' wrong venue, and to the extent people commented on using 24-hour time, it was mostly opposed.
=== Vertical space: Technical question ===
** ] – Above question was raised at a specific article as a "local consensus" matter. (Aug.–Sep. 2023) ''Result:'' unanimous opposition to 24-hour time.
{{formerly|Technical question}}
* ] – Follow-up to "unfruitful" discussions at ], etc. (Aug. 2023) ''Result:'' No formal closure; general agreement basically boils down to "write clearly and don't confuse or over-simplify with an adjective".

* ] – Wikiproject proposal to change rank abbreviations (to NATO style) in ]. (Aug. 2023) ''Result:'' no formal closure, but overwhelming consensus to stick with MoS and ignore NATO preferences.
Is there a feasible, site-wide solution by which the amount of spacing above the first nav-box can be set? (Keep in mind that navboxes can be part of a stack.) ] (]) 11:30, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
* ] – And some alternative ideas, including merger into ]. (Aug. 2023) ''Result:'' No formal closure, and the idea was mostly opposed, with no effect but returning all of the shortcuts (], ], ], ], ]) that someone changed to point to the ] essay to now point back to the real guideline at ].
:We already have a site-wide CSS rule that goes <source lang=css>ol + table.navbox, ul + table.navbox { margin-top: 0.5em; }</source> - what this says is "when a navbox follows either a numbered list or a bulleted list, make sure there is at least 0.5em of space between the list and the navbox". That 0.5em could be increased to a larger value. If the problem only shows when a navbox follows some other structure, we could broaden the selectors to cover other elements besides ol and ul which might precede the navbox. --] (]) 13:16, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
** The essay has since been retooled to be an exegesis of the guideline, though attempts at ]ing are likely to continue, as this is one of our most hotbed internal topics. See also the guideline ], and the essays ] and ].
:: Does that actually do anything? I don't see any vertical spacing difference between and . ] (]) 13:43, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
** ] – Proposal to move the MoS material into WP:BLP. (Aug. 2023) ''Result:'' Procedurally closed as "premature".
:: Actually, looking very carefully, I observed the opposite effect: the actual list seems to have one or two pixels less space in Firefox. ] (]) 13:47, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
* ] – Should the en dash have spaces around it; should it be an em dash? ''Result:'' moved to spaced en dash.
:::Your first example doesn't use a list, this is true; but HTMLTidy has wrapped the word "something" in a {{tag|p}} element, which has a bottom margin of 6px. If you have Firefox version 21 (not FF v 19, I'm not sure about FF v 20) you can verify these figures by using the "Inspect element" feature: right-click on the word "something", select "Inspect Element (Q)", and at bottom right, click the "Box Model tab. That produces a series of nested rectangles, with their dimensions. In the centre there will be the space allocated to the word "something" - for me it's 1083x19, although the first figure will differ with various monitor sizes and resolutions. Below that is a zero, this is the ; directly below that is a 6, this is the . Next, in the box at lower left, click on the row directly below the {{tag|p|c}} - this ''should'' be {{tag|table|o|params=class="navbox" style="border-spacing:0;" cellspacing="0"}} - and observe that the box model now shows "auto" as the value for .
* ] and ] – Relating to concordance between wikidata descriptions and enwiki "short description". (Aug. 2023) ''Result:'' Good summary: "as long as you choose a comprehensible form, your edits are fine. However, you should not change existing descriptions for stylistic reasons, and also not to unify desriptions for a given set of items"; also observations that various languages, e.g. Spanish, do not use an en dash for this purpose. So, Wikidata will not be changing away from hyphen as default, and any desire to have WD material, like automatically provided short descriptions, will have to do that change on our end.
:::Now switch to your second example, and repeat the exercise: you should find that the {{tag|li|c}} has a bottom margin of 1 and the {{tag|table|o}} has a top margin of 5. --] (]) 18:12, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
* ] and ] – Use "&" or "and"? (see ]). ''Result:'' Follow ]; the essay ] conflicting with the guideline and with ] policy was noted, and this ] was fixed in Jan. 2024. The second of these actually closed as "no consensus" because the ] who closed it did not know of ] policy and incorrectly treated policy- and guideline-based arguments as no stronger than those based on a contrary essay.
:::: I'm not entirely sure I understand you, but I've tried in IE 10 as well, with the same result. So the extra CSS spacing, even if it is working as intended code-wise, does not add any ''extra'' spacing from the user's perspective; the spacing looks the same as after a normal paragraph (because a {{tag|p}} paragraph has some vertical spacing after it, but a list element does not have any, so the "+" space between a list element and a navbox just compensates for that lack of trailing space, minus a pixel or so). ] (]) 20:06, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
* ] – Some re-wording proposals, and even a suggestion to remove the language entirely. (July 2023) ''Result:'' No formal closure, and did not result in wording changes, though a re-do might come to such a conclusion.
:::::OK, it can be demonstrated, but you'll need to ]. When you are logged in, go to ] and add the following line: <source lang=css>ol + table.navbox, ul + table.navbox { margin-top: 5em; }</source> - it's just like the earlier example except that is specifies a much deeper gap, so that you can see the effect. Having saved that, view your two examples from before - {{oldid|Misplaced Pages:Sandbox|560295977|the one without the bullet}} should be unchanged, {{oldid|Misplaced Pages:Sandbox|560296027|the one with the bullet}} should show a gap ten times as deep as previous. Of course, ten times the size is somewhat in excess of what people will really want, but it demonstrates that it can be done. The gap may be set to . --] (]) 20:39, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
* ] – move to ] like ], or is there a reason to hyphenate as ]? (July 2023) ''Result:'' Not moved. The closer actually misunderstood the guideline wording badly, and this has created a ] policy failure with titles of other such entities including AFL–CIO, and the Famous Players-Lasky decision covered just below. This probably needs to be re-done.
:I am revising the heading of this subsection from <b>Technical question</b> to <b>Vertical space: Technical question</b>, in harmony with ], point 13 (Section headings). Please see .
** ] – ditto. ''Result:'' Procedurally closed as a ] of the RM above.
:—] (]) 00:40, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
* ] –&nbsp;proposal to use dash instead of hyphen. (June–July 2023) ''Result:'' Use the dash per ]; a followup RM to add "Corporation" to the title rejected that idea despite ] supporting it, one of several recent RM incidents suggesting that at least some portions of the page do not enjoy consensus.

* ] – Proposal to change ] that "encyclopaedic significance of the deadname established through in-depth analysis or discussion of the name in high quality sources, or if they were notable prior to transitioning". (June–July 2023) ''Result:'' "no clear consensus".
=== Vertical space: Esthetic question ===
* ] – Primarily about "When should Misplaced Pages articles include the former name of a deceased trans or nonbinary person who was not notable prior to transitioning?" (May–June 2023) ''Result:'' "there is a consensus against using the former names of transgender or non-binary people, living or dead, except when of encyclopedic interest or when necessary to avoid confusion. Also, there is clear consensus that a former name is not automatically of encyclopedic interest. Where, exactly, the lines of encyclopedic interest and avoiding confusion are is not simple or clear and will likely need discussion on individual articles, although there is definitely space for more guidance in the MOS". This has let to a lot of follow-on discussion and dispute.
{{formerly|Esthetic question}}
* ] – Proposal to move section to naming-convention guideline. (June 2023) ''Result:'' no pro or con input; re-opened (Jan. 2024) on main MoS page.
* ] – Proposal to make anti-deadnaming rules apply to the long-deceased as well. (Apr.–May 2023) ''Result:'' No consensus to remove ''living'', so "the ''living'' qualifier, shall remain in place". The May–June 2023 RfC above was an outgrowth of this discussion.
* ] – essential information, or icon cruft? (Mar.–Apr. 2023) ''Result:'' "There is consensus against inclusion of rank icons."
* ] – involves ] and ]. (Feb.–Mar. 2023) ''Result:'' no consensus to use "v"; continue to use "vs." or "vs" as suits the ] of the article.
* ] – Should an external style guide be used in place of ] in chapter lists (e.g. ])? (Jan.–Feb. 2023) ''Result:'' Insufficient input to reach a consensus. Needs to be RfCed. But the {{lang|la|status quo}} default principle is that a lack of consensus to create an exception to general rules does not result in such an exception.
* ] – Open discussion as to whether decimalized years should be used in personal biographies. (Jan. 2023) ''Result:'' discussion archived; majority felt that decimalized years are not standard in biographical prose and should be limited to a statistical/mathematical context.
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== Retain or remove citation indicators in quoted text? ==
How much extra space should there be above the first navbox? It seems the main choices here are "none" and "one extra blank line", although if a more fine-grained approach is technically feasible, by all means specify in your favorite ]. (By the general MOS rule, if there is no site-wide consensus on how much, it will "defer to the style used by the first major contributor" in any given article.) ] (]) 11:40, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
: Here's my opinion on this. If you look at ] you see that most vertical space is between the last actual paragraph and the "See also" section. There is a bit less vertical space between the "See also" and "References", probably because the list elements don't have space after, whereas the paragraph element does (as discussed with Redrose64 above). There is slightly more space after the multi-column References list. The ''least'' vertical space of all is between the "External links" list elements and navboxes! This makes the navboxes look as is they are ''part'' of the last section (whichever that may happen to be), rather than be a section of their own. So, I think the CSS spacing above navboxes should be increased to make it look like the spacing between the paragraph element and the heading element. ] (]) 23:43, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
: As another comparison, if you look at ], an article with no navboxes, there is considerably more space after the last EL element when it's followed by just the categories box. ] (]) 02:05, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
::That space is not due to the bulleted list of external links, nor to any part of the article text. The category box <small>(which should be present in every article - if it isn't, give the article an {{tlx|uncategorised}})</small> has <code>class=catlinks</code> which includes the styling <code>margin-top: 1em;</code>. You'll find a gap of similar size above the category box in articles with navboxes, such as ]. --] (]) 11:52, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
::: I wasn't saying that the list was causing the extra space. But I did find the more generous space above the category box more pleasing. Since that one is 1em, I suggest that the CSS "plus space" between list elements and navboxes also be increased to 1em (from the current value of 0.5em). ] (]) 16:06, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
{{out}}As one of the primary editors who have argued for the need for visual space separating navboxes from the text of the final hierarchical section (usually "External links"), I do not think that it's necessary to have a full blank line there -- I'd be happy with, say, the equivalent of half a line. The only reason I use a full line is that it's the only way I know of to provide the visual separation that the system provides (for instance) to every hierarchical section to set them off from the text above. Not being familiar with the coding of these things, I don't know how much space is provided for each new section, but whatever it is should be sufficient to set off the navboxes from the text above and dissipate the visual crowding that results if there is no space. The navboxes are, in effect, a new section without a header (and attempts by other editors to add a header to them have been consistently rejected), and they need the same kind of spacing that any other new section is given. Because navboxes are a relatively new addition, and dealing with them has been something of an afterthought, that spacing has never been integrated into the system, but I'm pleased to hear that it is technically possible to do so, and urge that it be adopted. ] (]) 00:54, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
: At least two people told you at more than on occasion that there are better ways to add white space - you ignored it.
: At any rate, I'm glad that you now acknowledge the existence of style sheets. Redrose64 explains in ] how you use a personal style sheet. If you experiment with the values given (and remove the additional white lines), you should be able to provide valuable feedback to whomever is responsible for the style sheet.
: Any change is apparently made to ], so that's where the discussion about details should happen. --] (]) 18:47, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
:: I'm ignoring your personalization of issues with Beyond, 79.223.18.156. I will reply to your last point however, as I'm hatting this: that's a help page with practically zero discussion on its talk page. If discussion about global CSS changes needs to be held/solicited someplace else, that help page doesn't look like it's the right place. I did leave a note on ] pointing to this page when this thread got started. Anyway, if you think another venue is the right place, you should drop a pointer to this discussion over there. I take it you have no opinion on the amount of CSS spacing, 79.223.18.156. ] (]) 21:39, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
::: Thanks for the pointer, I wasn't sure about the best location to address this.
::: I have an opinion about the amount of spacing, but it would be distracting right now. --] (]) 22:25, 26 June 2013 (UTC)


Is it acceptable to remove citation indicators – ¹ or (Gorgon, 1993) – that appear within quoted text (this would be to improve readability). I'm not referring to citing quoted material, but to citation marks ''within'' quoted material. Thanks! ] (]) 12:18, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
: You should maybe also the . --] (]) 18:55, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
::And perhaps you should edit under your account name, and not edit stealthily as an IP to avoid scrutiny of your behavior, which is a violarion of ] &ndash; a '''''policy''''' &ndash; whereas nothing that I've done is a violation of '''''any''''' policy. ] (]) 05:06, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
::: So instead of saying ''anything'' in your favour, you immediately switch to personal attacks. This is not a war, A "good offense" is not the "best defense". --] (]) 17:52, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
* <small>I'm going to make this brief, since I do not want to get in the middle of a personal battle between {{U|Beyond My Ken|BMK}}, whomever he thinks this (these) IP editors are and the actual IP editors regardless of if they are indeed whom they are thought to be.</small> I think there should be some whitespace above the first navbox at the bottom, and I think the best way to accomplish this is to create an id section in the navbox template itself like <tt>id="navbox-top-space"</tt> and create a new line for common.css that reads <tt>#navbox-top-space{ margin-top: 2em; }</tt> and then finally offer some instructions on the navbox template page or a help page that is relevant that people can set <tt>#navbox-top-space{ diplay: none; }</tt> in their ] or ] if they don't want the space. Hopefully this offers a solution for everyone and perhaps {{U|Redrose64}} would be willing to implement this idea or something similar? ] (]) 14:51, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
::Each <code>id=</code> within a given document. A Misplaced Pages page may contain more than one navbox, therefore, to place <code>id="navbox-top-space"</code> into {{tlx|navbox}} will yield invalid HTML. --] (]) 15:32, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
::: {{U|Redrose64}}, that is exactly why I specified an <code>id=</code>... It would make it so only the first instance (top navbox) would display the extra space just like {{Tl|Tracked}} only updates the first listing for each bug number on a page using ]. ] (]) 16:19, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
::::Not necessarily. A browser confronted witb invalid HTML, such as more than one instance of <code>id="navbox-top-space"</code> has several choices: (i) ignore all and don't apply any styling; (ii) apply the styling only to the first instance, ignore the others (this is what you are hoping will happen); (iii) apply the styling to all of them (this is what most popular browsers including Firefox 21, Google Chrome 27, IE 7, Opera 12 and Safari 5 do); (iv) throw an error. It's very easy to test; first you need a short HTML doc:
<source lang=html5>
<!DOCTYPE html>
<html>
<head>
<title>HTML Test</title>
<style>
div { margin: 0; }
div#MyID { margin-top: 5em; }
</style>
</head>
<body>
<h1>HTML Test</h1>
<div>This is a DIV with zero margin all round</div>
<div id=MyID>This is a DIV with <code>id=MyID</code> which sets the top margin to 5 em</div>
<div>This is a DIV with zero margin all round</div>
<div id=MyID>This is another DIV with <code>id=MyID</code></div>
<div>This is a DIV with zero margin all round</div>
</body>
</html>
</source>
::::Open a text editor (like WordPad), copy that in, save it as plain text, and then open it in your browser. Then look to see if there'a a big gap above "This is another DIV with <code>id=MyID</code>" or not. The thing is, the specs don't say ''what'' a browser should do with invalid HTML like this. --] (]) 16:49, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
:I am revising the heading of this subsection from <b>Esthetic question</b> to <b>Vertical space: Esthetic question</b>, in harmony with ], point 13 (Section headings). Please see .
:—] (]) 00:40, 29 June 2013 (UTC)


:Yes. References to footnotes are usually silently omitted, as they are not a part of the text flow anyway. ] (]) 11:52, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
== Contiguous vs. continental United States ==
::Thanks. Is this addressed in the MoS? I couldn't find mention ]. This would seem a common situation when citing academic sources. ] (]) 15:58, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
:::I added it while doing some other cleanup. It's entirely normal to silently (not with "...") remove inline citations from quoted material, since WP isn't providing the source info, and to the reader it will be just be frustrating (they'll go looking for "Smith 1997" or whatever, and not find it). If our article is also citing the same source, then linking the quoted citation to our citation might be useful, but shouldn't be seen as manadatory. A general principle of quotation (inline or block) is to only quote what is pertinent, what is contextually necessary for our purposes; otherwise we're wandering into over-quotation which is both poor writing and apt to be a copyright issue unless the source is public-domain. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] 😼 </span> 13:55, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Thanks. Your addition is helpful and doesn't seem to overcomplicate things. I realized the primary aim with quoted material is not to forensically reproduce it from the source (as I'd kinda been doing), it's to accurately represent the meaning as it appears in the full context of the source. Which makes minor silent adjustments for readability fine, provided meaning is strictly preserved – comprehension and judgement are of course required. ] (]) 17:06, 11 December 2024 (UTC)


== Stale advice: slashes have been line-breaks since 2005 (Unicode 4.1.0) ==
Has there been any discussion on what term to use to refer to the contiguous United States?? "Continental" literally includes Alaska, so I suggest we use "contiguous". Any disagreements?? ] (]) 18:27, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
:It is more of a vocabulary question than a ''style'' question. But yes... "Contiguous" is the correct term when referring to the "Lower 48 States" that directly boarder on other States... while "Continental" is used when including Alaska, but not Hawaii. ] (]) 18:55, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
::While it is in some sense technically correct, prepare to be misunderstood if you use the term "continental United States" to include Alaska. My understanding is that that particular usage is mostly found in Alaska. That's not to say you can't use it, but make sure you explain it. --] (]) 21:40, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
:::As noted in ], both terms have changed definition over time and both are used ambiguously. --<span style="color:Turquoise">''''' &nbsp;]'''''<sup>]</sup></span> 14:22, 27 June 2013 (UTC)


{{alink|Slashes (strokes)}} says "On the other hand, if two long words are connected by an unspaced slash, an {{tl|wbr}} added after the slash will allow a linebreak at that point."
== Regarding ] ==
{{rfc|style|policy|rfcid=8EF89A9}}


I've recently tweaked a couple of articles doing this, and realized that my browser will allow breaks after slashes without any special markup. This is part of the . Looking into the archives, it was added to support breaking URLs between and .
I am seeking clarification regarding the proper method for including/excluding punctuation in quoted material. For examples:


It's been 19 years. Do we still need this advice? I ask because ''some'' parts of WP are aggressively backward-compatible: {{tl|wbr}} still expands to <code>&lt;wbr/>&amp;#8203;</code> since apparently IE7 and earlier don't support <code>&lt;wbr/></code>. But I seriously doubt that WP is ''consistently'' backward-compatible; I'm sure there are lots of more recent edits where the editors didn't see a problem with long /-separated lists on their browsers and didn't do anything tricky. ] (]) 17:20, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
* "Lindsay Planer of ] describes the song as a 'scathing rocker' in which lyrically Harrison 'forgoes his trademark arid wit for a decidedly more acerbic and direct approach'."


:Look at Good articles (or former Good articles) from years ago they read like they do now and it just shows that the Manual of Style will stay exactly the same as it has been for 18 years unfortunately. ] (]) 02:45, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
* "Leng praises the performance of all the musicians on the recording, particularly Keltner, and describes it as 'one of Harrison's most accomplished pieces'."


==Input needed on disagreement over where the lifespan goes in relation to a baronetcy or a peerage title==
While both of the terminal punctuation points are included in the quoted material, ] has that these periods should be placed outside the quote marks. What is the best practice? In the 16th edition of CMOS, section 6.9: ''Punctuation in relation to closing quotations marks'', it states, "Periods and commas precede closing quotation marks, whether double or single ... This is a traditional style, in use well before the first edition of this manual (1906)."(p.309) Also, CMOS gives this example: "Growing up, we always preferred to 'bear those ills we have.' 'Thus conscience does make cowards of us all,' she replied."(p.309) In the example they include both the comma and the terminal punctuation point inside the quote marks. Any thoughts? ] <sup>(]&#124;])</sup> 23:25, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
] and I disagree on where the lifespan goes in relation to a name that includes a baronetcy or a peerage title. It started with Muéro removing honorifics from the lead of several articles on peers (many of which I have on my watchlist), following the recently changed guidelines at ]. This is not controversial, but in their edits, he also removed a comma unrelated to the honorifics, but called for by ] ("''Don't let other punctuation distract you from the need for a comma, especially when the comma collides with a bracket or parenthesis''").


I pointed this out to them, and they acknowledged the error, but then they instead started to leave another comma in place, a comma that was required by the now obsolete guideline. I can't find the guideline in the history of this article, but it went something like this:
:The discussion we had about it on my talk page is , where difficulties in the wording of ] are described. I'd welcome clarification too. --] (]) 23:36, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
:''For people with a baronetcy or a peerage, the post-nominals should be separated from each other, <u>and from the name</u>, by a comma, for consistency's sake.'' (my underscore)
:: Don't you mean to say: "I'd also welcome clarification"? ] <sup>(]&#124;])</sup> 05:03, 23 June 2013 (UTC)


That is the comma Muéro left in place, and the result was this:
* From ''New Hart's Rules'' (Oxford University Press, 2005): "In US practice, commas and full points are set inside the closing quotation mark regardless of whether they are part of the quoted material&nbsp;... This style is also followed in much of British fiction and journalism."(p.155) ] <sup>(]&#124;])</sup> 00:13, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
John Doe, 1st Baron Doe, (1 January 1801 – 31 December 1881), was a Whig politician ...
* From ''Fowler's Modern English Usage'' (Oxford University Press, 2004): "All signs of punctuation used with words in quotation marks must be placed according to sense. If an extract ends with a point&nbsp;... let that point be included before the closing quotation mark; but not otherwise."(p.646) ] <sup>(]&#124;])</sup> 00:24, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
* From ''The Cambridge Guide to English Usage'' (Cambridge University Press, 2004): "In American style&nbsp;... always goes inside the quotes, as also for most Canadian editors&nbsp;... The North American practice (put it inside) is still the easiest to apply".(p.455) ] <sup>(]&#124;])</sup> 00:32, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
* From ''The Economist Style Guide'' (): "For the relative placing of quotation marks and punctuation, follow Hart's rules. Thus, if an extract ends with a full stop or question-mark, put the punctuation before the closing inverted commas." ] <sup>(]&#124;])</sup> 00:36, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
* From ''The Times Style and Usage Guide'' (Time Books, 2003): "Punctuation marks go inside the inverted commas if they relate to the words quoted".(p.139) ] <sup>(]&#124;])</sup> 00:43, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
* From ''The New York Times Manual of Style and Usage'' (Three Rivers Press, 1999): "Periods and commas, in American usage, always go inside the closing quotation marks, regardless of grammatical logic."(p.280) ] <sup>(]&#124;])</sup> 00:48, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
* From ''The Associated Press Stylebook'' (Basic Books, 2011): "Placement with other punctuation: Follow these long-established printers' rules: —The period and the comma always go within the quotation marks."(p.381) ] <sup>(]&#124;])</sup> 00:55, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
* From the ''MLA Handbook'' (7th edition, 2009): "By convention, commas and periods that directly follow quotations go inside the closing quotation marks."(p.103) ] <sup>(]&#124;])</sup> 01:27, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
* From ''The UPI Style Book & Guide to Newswriting'' (Martin, Cook, 2004): "The period and the comma always go within the quotation marks."(p.208) ] <sup>(]&#124;])</sup> 01:51, 23 June 2013 (UTC)


I pointed out to Muéro that this is also wrong, and that punctuation rarely – if ever – precedes a parenthetical expression. But they are adamant that it should be there.
"The North American practice (put it inside) is still the easiest to apply"—I don't understand why it's "the easiest". This list demonstrates that it's not really a trans-Atlantic issue. And some US academic journals, I believe, insist the other way round. Are the double quotes from your initial examples, or did you insert them for the purpose of this thread? ] ] 00:53, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
: Tony, I'm not sure what you mean. I quoted several style guides and so I put the quoted material inside double quotes. This thread isn't about whether or not we should use single or double inverted commas, its about whether or not commas and periods should be placed inside quoted material when they appear there in the original source. ] <sup>(]&#124;])</sup> 00:59, 23 June 2013 (UTC)


So here we are. I'd like input from the project, and I'm sure Muéro would like that too.
You have confused your point by requoting the material. Here are you two pieces and my reactions:


The discussion originated on ], but I'm copying it here, and closing it there, while notifying them.
* Lindsay Planer of ] describes the song as a "scathing rocker" in which lyrically Harrison "forgoes his trademark arid wit for a decidedly more acerbic and direct approach".


===The discussion on Muéro's talk page===
:I'd put the period back inside, since the quote seems to be clearly a sentence ending there.
Hello.


Thank you for your contributions. Regarding your edit of ], and similar edits removing postnoms per the new guidelines, please don't remove the comma '''''after''''' the parenthetical birth–death expression. It's supposed to be there per ]: "''Don't let other punctuation distract you from the need for a comma, especially when the comma collides with a bracket or parenthesis''".
* Leng praises the performance of all the musicians on the recording, particularly Keltner, and describes it as "one of Harrison's most accomplished pieces".


:I'd leave that one outside, since the material quoted is just a noun phrase, even if it was originally at the end of a sentence. ] (]) 00:56, 23 June 2013 (UTC) Thank you. ] (]) 15:50, 25 November 2024 (UTC)


:Ah, good catch. I can't wait for the day when nobility titles are also excluded entirely, which would make that comma unnecessary anyway. ]<sup>(]/])</sup> 15:58, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
Tony, re your above comment: "I don't understand why it's 'the easiest'." See Dicklyon's above comments. If placement is situational, then the rules are inherently more complex. This thread is some proof of that, since Dicklyon and Stfg obviously do not agree and since Stfg reverted me under the assumption that he was correct and that I wasn't. So how could we expect newer editors to understand the distinction if two of our finest veterans cannot agree? Hence, it would be simpler/easier to just follow the advice from the UK ''and'' US style guides, IMO. ] <sup>(]&#124;])</sup> 01:11, 23 June 2013 (UTC)


::Hello again.
:Yes, principals that require thought are in some sense less "easy". But applying thought come naturally to some; it's not hard. Where people disagree on which is most logical, it probably doesn't matter much. ] (]) 02:39, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
::I'm concerned about inserting punctuation that isn't there in the original that is being quoted; and the disjuncture between everyone's treatment (of parenthetical wording), and "of quoted material." I have also seen sentence-level commas inserted into <nowiki>''an italicised portion,''</nowiki> which is a bit weird, isn't it? ] ] 02:56, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
::As I understand the ''principle'' ;p of LQ, it’s to prevent a false inference that a stop comes from the source text. I don’t think it demands that they always be reproduced: whether or not to include them, at least where the quotation comprises less than a full sentence, should be a matter for the writer’s discretion. I read Fowler’s “according to sense” above as referring not only to preservation of the original meaning, but also to the manner in which the quotation is integrated with the framing sentence.—]]] 02:58, 23 June 2013 (UTC)


::Thank you for your understanding. Re: your latest edits, you're now leaving a comma in place that shouldn't be there.
:Please see my reference—] (May 2013)—to comments by Noetica in February 2010 (]).
:—] (]) 03:05, 23 June 2013 (UTC)


Nathaniel Charles Jacob Rothschild, 4th Baron Rothschild, (29 April 1936 – 26 February 2024),
I think the usage of the so-called "American Style" and "British style" for quoted items depends on whether or not the quoted material is a full sentence. If the quoted material is a full sentence, then the punctuation goes before the last quotation mark. If the quoted material is not a full sentence, punctuation goes after the last quotation mark. That way, "American Style" can be for full-sentence quotes, and "British Style" for non-full-sentence quotes.
^ ^ ^
A B C


::Commas A and C are paired, comma B should be removed along with the postnoms that followed it. Commas rarely precede parentheses.
Why was it even established that, in the "American style", punctuation has to go before the last quotation mark every time, regardless of whether the quote is a full sentence or just a fragment? ] (]) 20:50, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
::The usual story is that it has something to do with not breaking small pieces of movable type. I have never really understood why it was supposed to help, and the story may be nonsense for all I know, but it is at least the story one hears. --] (]) 20:57, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
:::Agreed, as for example in the (although sometimes it’s not breakage but movement that’s said to be the problem). The only reason given by Fowler for what he calls the “conventional” style (which he ''didn’t'' favour) is “on the ground that this has a more pleasing appearance” (second ed. Gowers). Some stronger language of his, probably from the first edition, is quoted on that FAQ page.—]]] 23:33, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
::::The history of American-style quotation and punctuation rules is as described but not really relevant anymore. I prefer a more logicial approach, in which sentences that are entirely in quotes have their punctuation similarly enclosed. Similarly, if punctuation "belongs" to the quoted text then it should be quoted. That being said, I disagree with Dicklyon's analysis of the first example; since the quoted text is a sentence fragment then the period logically belongs outside the quotes to end the entire sentence (and not just the quoted material). In practice, I almost always leave the period outside when quoting a sentence fragment but that's a personal preference. As to why the American rules are "easier", well I guess that's because it makes arguments such as mine with Dicklyon moot. :-) Peace, ]|]|] 15:41, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
{{outdent}}
Perhaps the solution is to place the disputed marks above one another, thus: <span style="color:darkgreen">This style is "easier.<span style="position:relative; left:-0.3em;">"</span></span> Or perhaps not – what would editors do without such disputes to occupy their time? :-) (Anyway it probably doesn't work in all browsers.) ] (]) 16:13, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
::I wish there were an easy & reliable way to do that for decimal points and DMS/HMS symbols, which are usually typeset that way.—]]] 08:30, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
:The current rule on Misplaced Pages is use the British rules in all articles, even ones otherwise written in American English. This rule shouldn't be in place because it flat-out requires incorrect punctuation, but it is in place. Here's how to use it:
:Misplaced Pages's required practice: Because you are quoting complete sentences, place the periods according to sense. That would be outside the single quotes but inside the double quotes, as Dicklyon describes.
:But your actual question was best practice. Best practice would be replacing WP:LQ and using an ENGVAR-based rule in which, if the article were written in a national variety of English that follows American practice, to put the periods inside both the single and double quotation marks.
:As for preventing false inferences, think about this: Can you name one time, on Misplaced Pages or off, when you've ever witnessed or heard of anyone getting confused or making a mistake because of American English punctuation? It's even less often than someone thinking that "centre" is pronounced "sen-treh." In the absence of any difference in performance, "this is more logical" boils down to "I happen to like this more." It's perfectly valid to have personal preferences, as Dusty puts it, but we shouldn't base rules on them. ] (]) 17:29, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
::It doesn't need to be complicated at all. The question should be simply: is the punctuation part of the quoted material, or not? If it is, it belongs inside the quotes; if not, it goes outside. --] (]) 18:56, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
:::Another way of thinking about it is that . (for example) goes exactly where ? or ! would go. {{tq|Did he say "No"?}} → {{tq|He said "No".}} {{tq|She said "Why should I do it?"}} → {{tq|She said "I should do it."}}
:::(However, I still believe that articles written in American English should be consistent and use what is clearly standard American punctuation.) ] (]) 19:13, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
::::I don't know about that example, PC. "No" can be a complete sentence, and that would place the period inside the quotation marks under British rules. ] (]) 19:15, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::Sure. The point is that when the placement of . is determined by the same considerations as the placement of ? or ! there are the same choices: {{tq|He said "No"!}} (surprise at what he said) or {{tq|He said "No!"}} (he spoke forcefully). Type setters' quotation makes it simpler for . and , but doesn't affect the other punctuation marks. ] (]) 21:50, 24 June 2013 (UTC)


::Cheers.
* Re: "The current rule on Misplaced Pages is use the British rules in all articles, even ones otherwise written in American English." Is this statement accurate? If so, why? ] <sup>(]&#124;])</sup> 20:20, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
:::It's accurate but, in my view, misstated. The correct statement is, "use logical punctuation in all articles, including those written (not 'otherwise written') in American English". Using logical punctuation does not prevent the text from being in American English. --] (]) 21:48, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
::::The statement is entirely accurate. "British punctuation" is also ''called'' "logical punctuation," and many of the regulars on this board prefer the second name. I find it a bit of a misnomer. The most logical way to write is the way that will be understood by one's readers and present the material well, and the two practices have little in the way of measurable differences in those two respects.
::::Using British punctuation prevents the text from being in ''correct'' American English, just as spelling "harbor" with a U prevents it from being in correct American spelling.
::::As for why the rule is in place, it's because many regulars on this board like British style a lot more than they like American style. I also dug through the archives and found one reference to a compromise between American and British English, the idea that Misplaced Pages would use double quotes all the time (under the mistaken belief that British punctuation requires single quotes) in exchange for using British punctuation around quotation marks. My personal take on the matter is that a disproportionate number of early Wikipedians were computer programmers, and using British style can be advantageous when dealing with raw strings of characters. However, that advantage disappears when the reader is a human being instead of a computer. ] (]) 23:43, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::It is in fact misstated. So-called "American" punctuation is not American at all; it was used in Britain until not so long ago. Typography is not the same thing as spelling &mdash; typesetting is arguably not part of the language at all. We should use logical punctuation because it is, in fact, more logical, at least in the sense that it more closely reflects the underlying logic of the sentence. That is not in and of itself the same as being more "logical" in the sense of being the more rational ''choice''; that's a separate issue, but my position on that one is clear. --] (]) 23:50, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::Considering that I'm the one who made the statement, I'm the authority on whether or not it is a misstatement. It isn't. I said exactly what I meant to say. ] (]) 03:48, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::Actually, Trovatore, to the extent that the various British and American style guides describe the differences between predominant style of quotation punctuation used in the United States and Canada and the system used by a majority in Britain, they invariably refer to them as "American style" and "British style." The phrase "logical quotation" is virtually never used in the reliable sources. You can call it whatever you want, but let's at least acknowledge what the actual sources call the two different systems. As for whether there is a distinct American style, at last count there were only ''two'' significant American style guides among literally dozens that advocate the use of British style/logical quotation. So, please let's acknowledge that reality and stop pretending that the American style is not the predominant system in both Canada and the United States. ] (]) 00:13, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::::Yes, it is the predominant system in the US. Nevertheless it is not "American". As an American I object to having my country's name associated with an inferior punctuation scheme, even if (unfortunately) it is the one most used here. --] (]) 00:21, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::::As I said above, Trovatore, you may call the American style whatever you want as a matter of personal preference, but let's also acknowledge that ''The Chicago Manual of Style'', ''The New York Times'', ''The Cambridge Guide to English Usage'' and numerous other American and British style books call them "American style" and the "British style" . . . Mind you, these "sources" are not five guys having an argument about inferior and most used punctuation schemes, but this is what actual reliable sources call the two different systems of quotation punctuation. I might add that virtually none of the reliable sources call the majority British practice "logical quotation"; that seems to be a relatively obscure phrase someone on Misplaced Pages latched onto for obvious reasons. I'm happy to consider any sources others may produce on point, and trade PDF copies of relevant excerpts from the 25+ American and Canadian style books I have accumulated over the past three weekends. ] (]) 00:34, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::: I stand by all my statements. It may well be that those manuals ''call'' it American. --] (]) 00:44, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::Trovatore, you have repeatedly been presented with proof that American punctuation is American. You don't ''like'' that it is American. You don't ''like'' that punctuation is part of the language. That is not the same as it not being true. I don't like that "logical punctuation" is one of British punctuation's names, but if I were to claim that it weren't actually one of the practice's names and therefore no one should use it, I'd be wrong.
:::::::::::As for the system being inferior, kindly provide proof: Show me a case of American punctuation causing even one non-hypothetical, non-imaginary problem on Misplaced Pages or in the real world. Don't just claim that your preferred system is superior; show us why it is worth it to deliberately use incorrect punctuation and to impose this requirement on others. ] (]) 03:46, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::: Bullshit. It's not American. That style guides call it American doesn't make it so. It was the style held over from the days of mechanical type, and was used just as much in Britain.
:::::::::::: Logical punctuation is superior because it better reflects the underlying logic of the utterance. --] (]) 03:49, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Prove it. We've shown you verifiable sources stating that American is American and British is British, verifiable to the point at which if I wanted to state in a Misplaced Pages article, "This is American style," I could cite at least one (in this case dozens) of sources and do it. Now you do the same. Find some sources that back you up or stop miseducating the newbies. No one here has expected you to take their word or their opinions as hard fact. Now you do the same.
:::::::::::::Same answer: Prove it. Show how the fact that the logic of British style appeals to you improves the reader experience. Show that American punctuation causes problems or that British punctuation improves reading comprehension. Show that either style facilitates the retention of the material better than the other. Because otherwise "this is more logical" boils down to "this appeals to me personally." That's not bad but it's not something upon which the MoS should be based. ] (]) 03:55, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::::::First one: <s>No, you haven't. You've given sources that ''call'' it American or British.</s> Well, maybe they do say that; I don't know. But still, it's the wrong thing to call it. This is not an article, so it's not about sourcing it.
::::::::::::::Logical punctuation appeals to me personally because it better reflects the logical structure of the utterance. That goes beyond a personal preference; that's what makes it logical. Typesetters' punctuation, on the other hand, is just a mistake. --] (]) 03:59, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::Trovatore, I don't claim that my sources could prove it in a court of law (although...), but they're definitely proof enough to meet WP:V. If I wanted to add the words "this punctuation style is American" to an article, I could cite these sources and do it. That is what I'm asking you to do, show us at least one Misplaced Pages-level source that agrees with you. You say that the idea that American English is American and British is British is "bullshit" and that American punctuation is "a mistake." Back up your claims or put them away. ] (]) 18:03, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::I have backed them up. You can see my arguments above. I never said American English is not American, or that British English is not British. I said American and British are the wrong names to use for typesetters' and logical punctuation, respectively. I stand by that. Those are the wrong names, no matter how many style guides may call them that. And logical is superior to typesetters', and I've explained why. --] (]) 22:35, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::You seem to be confused about my request. Stating and restating your opinion isn't proof, Trovatore. No, saying "this is more logical; this is more ''logical''" does not explain what that does or doesn't make anything superior. What I'd consider proof is what I've shown you: A secondary source that backs you up. ] (]) 22:42, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::::I'm not "stating my opinion". I have explained exactly why it's superior. This isn't an article so there are no rules about secondary sources. --] (]) 22:44, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::::I was using WP:V as a yardstick, a threshold for what quality of proof I had provided. The point of this part of the conversation is that I didn't just expect you to take my word for it; I showed you sources. You have no grounds to refer to what I said as "bullshit" unless you can back up your own even more outlandish claims even better than I backed up mine. I'll settle for as well.
:::::::::::::::::::::How's this: "American punctuation is superior to British because it is easier to learn, teach, use and copy-edit." Are you going to buy it just because I said so? Do I get to say that your unsubstantiated claims of BP being more logical are "bullshit"? ] (]) 22:51, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::::: V is a standard for articles. The reasons it's a standard for articles have almost nothing to do with its reliability as a form of persuasive argument. They have to do instead with the nature of an encyclopedia.
:::::::::::::::::::::: Logical punctuation more closely reflects the underlying logic of the sentence, hence the name. I can detail in what ways it does so, if you like, but I think you know them`. --] (]) 22:56, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::::::Trovatore, I'll speak even more plainly. You don't agree with my position, but I've shown you sources that do. You, however, have done nothing but restate your own opinion. You act as if I should just take your word for it, and I have not expected you to just take mine. If you ''can't'' find sources of similar or better quality for your own position, then you should rethink that position. At the absolute least, you must stop referring to my position as "bullshit." If an evidence-supported position is bullshit, then an unsupported position must be something much worse. ] (]) 07:17, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::::::::I have explained why your position is wrong. --] (]) 07:38, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::::::::No, Trovatore, you haven't. You claim that British punctuation "reflects the logic of the sentence," but you don't prove how or why, and you have offered no evidence that either system performs better than the other. I'm going to have to conclude that if you had sources or anything else that supported your position, you'd have provided them by now. You don't have to agree with me but you do have to stop claiming that my position is less grounded than yours. ] (]) 15:48, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::::::::::I have in fact explained it. And I don't "have" to do anything. --] (]) 22:20, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
{{outdent}}
Typesetter's punctuation wasn't a "mistake" for typesetters: it was a perfectly rational choice.<br>
Instead of people taking sides based on nationalist preferences or on the supposedly "logical" nature of one convention over another, it would be more useful to recognize the underlying reality. Typography, whether spelling, capitalization, punctuation, spacing, or whatever, is a matter of {{em|convention}}. Even in so-called LQ, there are "illogical" conventions, e.g. forbidding repeated full stops. The following is the "logical" way to punctuate: {{tq|She said "I don't know.".}} There are two sentences here; "logically" each should have its own full stop. However, I guess for reasons of appearance, no-one recommends punctuating like this.<br>
Given that we have articles written in different styles of English, it's easier for readers – less jarring – if a consistent set of conventions is used throughout. Since the overwhelming majority of material written in American English outside Misplaced Pages uses TQ rather than LQ, this is what should be used inside Misplaced Pages {{em|unless}} it can be shown that there are {{em|real}} examples of {{em|significant}} advantages in not following the standard convention. I note that in spite of repeated challenges to produce these, no-one supporting LQ in American English articles has ever done so.<br>
<small>One reason I personally won't label these punctuation styles by nationality is that I'm British but sufficiently old to have used TQ in my early writing before LQ became such a common style in the UK; I still prefer the visual appearance of most examples of TQ, but accept that the convention has changed.</small><br>
It's not Misplaced Pages's role to try to lead changes of conventions, but to reflect accurately the conventions that exist. The right answer to ]'s original question is, in my view, that many of the editors who built up the MOS came to believe via a local consensus that they should {{em|create}} conventions rather than {{em|reflect}} them. This was wrong, and needs to be corrected, not just in this matter but in a number of others. ] (]) 07:55, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
:I actually agree with you that the sentence you put in green is the ideal way to punctuate that sentence. However, we can quote only part of what she said, if we like, and therefore we can leave off the period that she would have written had she written the sentence rather than spoken it. So {{tq|She said "I don't know".}} doesn't have anything actually ''wrong'' with it. --] (]) 09:38, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
::Just as a passing comment, I would push back against the idea that LQ is "British" style. In fact, and as Peter suggests above, British practice varies widely as far as I can tell from both writing and reading in this country. And although many of the sources cited and quoted above suggest that there is something that is probably correctly identified as the predominant "American" style or practice, they are in no way as specific when it comes to defining a universal "British" style or practice. Hence it's slightly misconceived to present this issue as being an ENGVAR contradiction or about the imposition – sensible or otherwise – of one national style over another. When it comes to minor punctuation points, we simply do not always have the level of rigid certainty and clear distinction – or the visual impact for most readers, for that matter – that applies, for example, to spelling (for the most part at least, excluding the Oxford -ize of course). <small>''']''' ''']/]'''</small> 09:46, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
:::Exactly. This is very like the situation regarding serial commas. And I think we should treat LQ and TQ (under whatever names) as options, prescribing nothing more than internal consistency within an article, as has been suggested by others here. When I copy edit, it makes me very uncomfortable to alter punctuation that already conforms perfectly well to many of the best style guides out there, just becuase the MOS tells me to. It ''feels'' pedantic, and I suspect that some good writers don't like it when their perfectly sound punctuation is altered like that. GabeMc queried it recently, and ] did so a few months ago when I did a copy edit for him (the thread is ], starting at the 3rd paragrah). I think they are justified. That said, we can't ditch LQ from the set of available options, so that phrase, "communicates a complete sentence" still needs disambiguating. I've always treated it as meaning "''is'' a complete sentence". But if that's the case, why not have it say so, and if it isn't, then what does it mean? --] (]) 11:09, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::I disagree. Even if you could prove that British English allows either American or British style, American English doesn't. This isn't the case with the serial comma. It's kind of like how an article can use either -ize or -ise and still be written in a correct form of British English, but it ''must'' use -yse and not -yze. ] (]) 17:46, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
::::Other punctuation issues are a good comparison. It's probably fair to say that the serial comma is more common in US writing and less so in British, while the em-dash is preferred in US writing for parentheticals over the en-dash seen more commonly in British texts. However, no one would surely say that one use is strictly "US English" and the other "British English"; nor does the WP MOS associate or classify them as such for ENGVAR purposes, and insist that US English articles use serial commas and em-dashes. All it asks when it comes to such punctuation issues is that text has clarity and that articles are consistent within themselves. <small>''']''' ''']/]'''</small> 11:19, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::There's a big difference between the serial comma and quotation punctuation in American English. There is nothing like a near-universal consensus regarding the mandatory use of the serial comma in the United States; in reality, the de facto rule is to use the serial comma when it makes sense to do so, or omit the final comma when it adds nothing. Pedants will argue for absolute consistency and are generally ignored. The serial comma debate, to the extent one can say there is a "debate," is on about the same level as that regarding split infinitives (which are now generally accepted). American style quotation punctuation (or "typesetter's quotation" if you prefer) is the nearly universal convention in American and Canadian English. So, yes, in American and Canadian English it is the predominant ''national'' convention per WP:ENGVAR. The fact that only a growing majority use British style quotation punctuation (or "logical quotation") in the UK, and not the overwhelming majority as use American style punctuation in the United States and Canada, does not mean that the obvious trans-Atlantic split in punctuation conventions does not exist. Supporters of British style quotation punctuation/logical quotation in Misplaced Pages feel the need to obscure this reality in order to sidestep the obvious ENGVAR issue. In the United States and Canada, "logical quotation" is a distinctly minority practice, generally limited to computer programming manuals and a handful of technical journals. The overwhelming mainstream practice in the United States and Canada, as demonstrated by the overwhelming majority of American and Canadian style guides, is to use "American style" quotation punctuation. Imposing British style quotation punctuation/logical quotation on Misplaced Pages articles written in American and Canadian English is odd, eccentric and contrary to standard American and Canadian English punctuation practices. Let's call it exactly what it is: the imposition of a personal preference that is contrary to the predominant practice in American and Canadian English. ] (]) 12:28, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::@Both Dirtlawyer and Darkfrog. Well, my main point was that there is no such thing as a consistent "British style" on this point while at the same time acknowledging that US practice does seem more fixed one way. So I don't quite see how replies that use the term "British style", predicated on the unevidenced assumption that there is such a thing, and that tell me that American practice is near universal are a response to anything I said, assuming they were meant to be. The first assertion is not accurate and the second I had already acknowledged (I would also dispute the claim – not that I made it originally anyway – that the use of the serial comma is not similarly near universal in US texts, but let's let that pass). Anyway, I only had a passing comment to make and I've made it. Look at how much space this crap has taken up – in my view while proceeding from several false assumptions – compared to the response someone coming to this page asking for practical help gets. <small>''']''' ''']/]'''</small> 21:24, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::ps: and, for the sake of clarity, I don't particularly favour the current MOS guidance; I'm just not convinced the solution lies in making it into a rigid ENGVAR or ENGVAR-equivalent issue, not least because there is no sound real-world reasoning or evidence in favour of doing that. <small>''']''' ''']/]'''</small> 21:33, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::::"Unevidenced"? Why didn't you just ask? Here's some evidence.
:::::::"British style" and "British punctuation" are the terms most commonly used by reliable sources. No one here made them up or pulled them out of a hat. ] (]) 22:39, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::::Maybe not, but regardless of the descriptive terms that some formal – and mostly American, it would seem – style manuals might choose to distinguish styles of punctuation, there is, as I and several other British editors have now said, no consistent or prescriptive "British style" or practice of punctuation in respect of quotations that would be taken as correct – with any deviation as incorrect – in the UK. There isn't, and hence the phrase is misleading in the context of this discussion and it is misleading to propose an ENGVAR-style rule here that can work in the same way as for spelling, where there are clear correct and incorrect forms for certain words in US and UK versions of English respectively. <small>''']''' ''']/]'''</small> 23:15, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::Do you perhaps mean that there is ''more than one'' British style? That's not the same as being no British style.
::::::::::The term "logical punctuation" is even more misleading because it indicates that one of these two systems is more logical than the other. Rule out "British" and we have nothing left to call it.
::::::::::There ''are'' clear and correct forms for punctuation, just as there are clear and correct forms for spelling. American English requires American punctuation and forbids British. You seem to be saying that BrE has more than one correct punctuation system, just as it has more than one correct spelling system, but we still refer to both Oxford and non-Oxford systems as British. ] (]) 00:15, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::Well, now we're just into semantics. I mean what I said, which is that there is no one British style or practice. People can call individual systems whatever they like for all I care. And yes, there are very definitely clear rights and wrongs in some aspects of punctuation, but there are also much looser areas without right or wrong and where practice varies in myriad ways within national styles of English, eg from publisher to publisher, as well as between them. Regardless of the Oxford -ize – which is a limited and specific sub-variety that is clearly defined, understood and delineated – spelling is fixed, and fixed by national variety, in ways that punctuation is not always, including here. I'm surprised someone would continue to contest that rather obvious truism. <small>''']''' ''']/]'''</small> 09:01, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::::The best way to avoid terminolgy with undesirable implications might be to name the systems by their internal characteristics rather than their historical or (claimed) external ones. Just for an Aunt Sally, how about "fixed-position punctuation" and "contextual punctuation", or something along those lines? --] (]) 10:19, 26 June 2013 (UTC)


::] (]) 17:52, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Semantics are underrated. We're using words to communicate, so their meanings are important. There are places where punctuation is not fixed&mdash;the serial comma jumps to mind&mdash;but the placement of periods and commas with quotation marks isn't one of them. In American English, British-style punctuation is wrong, so we shouldn't require editors to use it in American English articles. If you don't want me to believe that, then show me proof. Show me style guides that say that American English goes either way or show me articles about the history of the language written by experts. I would change my position on WP:LQ if someone could show me a series of conclusive studies stating that British style is significantly better for reading comprehension than American style is. (I don't think that any have yet been performed, though, and I wouldn't be surprised if American punctuation came out on top in a side-by-side study, but that's just me hypothesizing.)
:::I don't think that makes sense. If someone doesn't have a nobility/royalty title, there is no comma before or after the life span. When adding the nobility/royalty title, the pair of commas should go before and after the nobility/royalty title. Why, when adding the nobility/royalty title, would the life span get looped into the comma pair? ]<sup>(]/])</sup> 17:56, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::That's a nice enough idea, Stfg, but it amounts to making up our own names for things. The whole point is that the MoS shouldn't attempt to improve English but instead reflect the language as it actually exists. Then there's the problem that, "contextual punctuation" presents British style in an unfairly favorable light. If we make up new names, everyone will try to arm their own preferred system with the most biased name that they can get away with. If we're going to frame one side as better than the other, then we should use the names that already exist. ] (]) 15:48, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::::::I've never argued that either system is better than the other. The problem is that the national terms are divisive and tend to set in stone a crosspondian separation when it isn't even real. To call the one "American punctuation" ignores the fact that many (most, I suspect) Brits still use it. To call the other "British punctuation" implies that it's the default for BrE articles. Both are wrong. I understand the desire to use well attested terms and that style guides use those terms, but in my opinion style guides that use national terms are being tendentious. The printed style guides only need to be applied to one or other side of the Atlantic; we have a tougher problem that needs greater care. Can you think of a solution to this problem of divisiveness? --] (]) 16:28, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::1. Because ENGVAR is an established policy on Misplaced Pages, the idea of whether these systems are indeed American and British is relevant. 2. Reliable sources refer to them as American and British. So these names might be divisive, but they're also relevant and accurate.
:::::::::::::::The national divide on this issue is indeed real. "American" isn't just a name, this punctuation system ''is'' American. I don't expect you to take my word for it: Here are some sources that support this. As for the British system, it was invented by British guys named Fowler and Fowler and popularized in England in their book ''The King's English''. It's used by most professional writers of British non-fiction, the same ones who produce the sources that we use on Misplaced Pages. If that's not enough to make it British, then I don't know what is. ...but you could tell me, of course. If you have sources or proof showing that American style isn't really American or that British isn't really British, then I'd be more than willing to look at it, just as I've asked you to look at mine. But no, I'm not going to stop using the correct names (though in the BrE case not the only correct name) of these systems just because some people wish there weren't a national divide on this issue.
:::::::::::::::My solution to the problem is that everyone must accept that there are things they don't like about this. I don't like that British style is also called "logical punctuation" because it implies that American style is illogical, but I put up with it because people showed me sources proving that that ''is'' one of its names. ] (]) 17:45, 26 June 2013 (UTC)


====Step by step====
I think we all need to remember this is "English Misplaced Pages" and not "North American Misplaced Pages". We can pick the best bits from each version of English, and use them to create a very readable encyclopedia, we dont have to stick with a majority of english speakers convention at all. Also remember ENGVAR covers spelling/vocabulary, but the MOS covers punctuation. -- ] (]) 13:01, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
I think it makes perfect sense. You don't put a parenthetical expression '''''after''''' punctuation, do you?
::::::Nbound, this may be the English Misplaced Pages, but we've actively embraced the idea that there is more than one national variety of English. For us to pick and choose little bits of each variety based solely on what contributors to this page happen to like would produce a system that is not correct by anyone's standards.
Let me take this step by step. Normally, the first sentence would be something like this:
:::::::::Its called compromise, just like we already have to do with dates :). Allowing articles with differing rules lowers the polish of the encyclopedia, can we do it, sure! Should we, probably not... - ] (]) 22:36, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
John Doe was a Whig politician ...
::::::::::What you're describing is dispensing with ENGVAR and picking just one national variety of English. I actually wouldn't mind if we picked British English for the whole encyclopedia, but that is a separate issue. It's been long established that the unit of consistency is the article, not the whole encyclopedia or even the Wikiproject. That may change, but it is how things are now.
::::::::::I share your concern about lowering the tone of the encyclopedia, but the best way to project confidence and polish is to use ''correct'' English, and leaving periods and commas outside the quotation marks is flat-out wrong in American English. ] (]) 22:45, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::As stated earlier, ENGVAR applies to spelling and vocab only. MOS is the document used for punctuation. ENGVAR doesnt apply here, at all. Its not like North Americans can't read LQ (or vice versa), its a preference. LQ was chosen as it's more accurate. In another circumstance some North American quirk might provide a better outcome and it will be chosen over the Commonwealth version. The date example I listed is a good one, if we begin to go down the "use your national standard route", imagine we if started using MM/DD/YYYY on Nth American articles, and DD/MM/YYYY elsewhere... was that the 12th of February, or the 2nd of December!? -- ] (]) 22:56, 25 June 2013 (UTC)


Now let's add that he was a peer:
::::::::::::WP:ENGVAR does fail to mention national differences in punctuation. That is one thing that I'd like to see changed. Regardless, the national varieties themselves ''do'' differ with respect to punctuation, and we should respect that the way we respect other differences.
John Doe, 1st Baron Doe, was a Whig politician ...
::::::::::::You say that LQ is more accurate, but do you know or are you assuming? Can you show even one case of American punctuation causing an error, inaccuracy or confusion? I'm not being rhetorical. If you've seen American punctuation cause any non-hypothetical problems, that would be very relevant to this conversation. I've never seen or even read about one. ] (]) 00:10, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
^ ^
:::::::::::::<s>Sure, quotatations involving questions can sometimes be a little odd. If the quote contains the question mark it is clear a question was part of the quote. When if it is outside it may not be obvious (as it could be part of the quote, or it could be questioning the quote.
A B
::::::::::::::*He said, "Ten bags?". - means that the quote was actually the question. (Someone asked if there were ten bags)
The commas A and B are paired, i.e. the "parenthetical" title is set off at both ends (unless when there is other punctuation, like at the end of sentence). Let's see what happens without the closing (second) comma:
::::::::::::::*He said, "Ten bags"? - means either that the quote was actually the question (Someone asked if there were ten bags) '''OR''' that someone is wondering if that was what was said. (Someone else is confirming someone said there was ten bags)
John Doe, 1st Baron Doe was a Whig politician ...
:::::::::::::Similar things can occur with other punctuation marks such exclamation marks. Discerning the originator of the proposed meaning can be a little harder under the North American standard. Of course, context can most of the time. Context will help someone trained in the Nth American way, to eventually figure out what is being described by the Commonwealth version, which does not leave the exact outcome upto the reader to decipher, but is rather part of the text.</s> -- ] (]) 10:23, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::::::Uh, Nbound, you are apparently unfamiliar with the more arcane points of American style quotation punctuation. In the examples you cited, the results would probably be the same under either American style quotation punctuation or British style quotation punctuation/logical quotation. Generally, only commas and periods/full stops are invariably placed within the quote marks; other forms of punctuation -- colons, semicolons, question marks and exclamation points -- are only placed within the quote marks if the punctuation was part of the quoted passage. (See, e.g., ''The Chicago Manual of Style''.) So, no, your examples would not be evidence of the superiority of BS/LQ over AS/TQ. ] (]) 11:39, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::What DL said, Nbound. American and British styles treat question marks and exclamation points the same way. They differ ''only'' in the treatment of periods and commas. Also, I'm not 100% that British style requires or even allows a period in ''He said, "Ten bags?".'' ] (]) 15:51, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::Fair enough, I had been previously mislead in the differences and retract my previous statement. I will also remove my vote. -- ] (]) 23:16, 26 June 2013 (UTC)


If the commas aren't paired, the sentence reads "1st Baron Doe was a Whig politician", and "John Doe" is left dangling at the start of the sentence.
::::::Dirtlawyer has it right. We went ] that dealt with this issue, and there were only two American guides that even allowed British style punctuation. Just ''two'' out of dozens, and they were both for specialized types of writing that we don't do on Misplaced Pages. The national divide is real. The only question is whether we treat every variety of English equally or allow full British next to American lite. ] (]) 17:46, 25 June 2013 (UTC)


Now, let's add the life span. Where do we add it? Before punctuation.
:@Dirtlawyer1, shall we try to avoid imputing motives to people? It seems from this discussion that there isn't agreement on whether it's an ENGVAR issue. However, that's a theoretical question. If we were to impose TQ on all articles written in AmE, we would suddenly render many FAs non-compliant with MOS, when they had previously been compliant. Same applies to GAs (MOS is not part of the GA criteria, but many GAs have been edited for MOS compliance anyway). Treating stop positions as separate from ENGVAR, as we already do with listing-comma habits and dash styles, would allow us to abandon the strict constraint to use LQ everywhere, without creating a lot of unproductive work. --] (]) 14:31, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
John Doe, 1st Baron Doe (1 January 1801 – 31 December 1881), was a Whig politician ...
::So, to be clear, is your preference to allow TQ or LQ so long as there is consistency within the article, in the way that we allow either unspaced em-dashes or spaced en-dashes, regardless of the ENGVAR? I can see that this might be the best compromise given where we are now, although not everyone's ideal solution. ] (]) 16:22, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
^ ^
:::Yes. Thanks for putting it so clearly. --] (]) 17:27, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
A B
The commas A and B are still paired. See?


] (]) 23:04, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
::Stfg, there is no need to "imput motives" when various editors are openly stating them in this discussion and others. In the face of the factual evidence from numerous reliable sources from Britain, Canada and the United States, past and present discussion participants have openly denied (a) that what you call "typesetter's quotation" (TQ) is most commonly called "American style" in the majority of reliable sources in both Britain and the United States, (b) American style quotation punctuation is the overwhelming majority practice in the United States and Canada, and (c) the British style majority practice is different from the American and Canadian style majority practice. The discussion even evokes an emotional response among the vocal minority of Americans who are personally committed to British style quotation punctuation/logical quotation because, well, they just believe it is "more logical." There is an Alice-in-Wonderland element to all of this when no amount of real world evidence seems to convince BS/LQ proponents that they are imposing an eccentric and distinctly minority practice on articles written in American and Canadian English, an imposition which leads to frequent discussions on the MOS talk page when North American editors repeatedly question why Misplaced Pages imposes a mandatory usage that is contrary to the standard punctuation practices of Americans and Canadians. To my knowledge, there is no other widely used and widely recognized punctuation practice that is defined along geographic/national lines in the same manner.


:The nobility title is a nonessential appositive. Commas go before and after a nonessential appositive. I'm assuming you don't consider the lifespan, which is never set off by commas in a Misplaced Pages article, to be a part of the same nonessential appositive somehow, right? If it's not included in the nobility title nonessential appositive, then it goes outside the commas. ]<sup>(]/])</sup> 00:04, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
::As for how a transition to American style quotation punctuation would work, I believe your concerns have merit. Personally, I would not impose an mandatory, across-the-board use of American style in articles written in American and Canadian English, and would allow for the continued use of BS/LQ in topic areas where BS/LQ is actually used in the subject area literature (e.g., chemistry, computer programming, and a small handful of others). Nor would I advocate an immediate conversion of Feature Articles and Good Articles written in American and Canadian English articles from BS/LQ to AS/TQ because of the attendant work, but such a transition would, I believe, be inevitable over time as editors would convert articles from one punctuation practice to the other. I don't see a problem with a gradual transition based on manual editing by knowledgeable editors; that should be applauded. What I do see as a potential problem is the attempted use of auto editor programs to effect the rushed transition without careful and considered editing. That having been said, I would accept any compromise that permitted new articles written in American and Canadian English to use AS/TQ, and that provided for an orderly transition, over time, from one practice to the other for the majority of articles that did not specifically adopt BS/LQ by consensus. In the absence of sloppy auto edits, I doubt that the transition would hardly be noticed. For instance, the George Washington GA has fewer than a dozen instances where the punctuation would change.


::No, it doesn't. Sure, the lifespan parenthetical isn't part of the appositive, but neither are the commas, which is demonstrated by the fact that at, if the name and title occurred at the end of a sentence, there wouldn't be a comma; there would be a period/full stop:
::As I have repeatedly said, the Manual of Style works best for everyone when it tracks the conventional practices used by the majority in the real world because that leads to greater voluntary compliance. Imposing a minority practice simply leads to more non-compliance, aggravation, and endless talk page discussion, here and elsewhere. In this case, "logic" suggests that MOS should recognize that there is a significant geographic/national split in quotation punctuation practices, and not try to impose a minority practice on most articles written in Canadian and American English. ] (]) 16:32, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
... {{xt|Joseph Smith bequeathed the manor to his nephew, John Doe, 1st Baron Doe (1801–1881).}}


::You wouldn't place the parenthetical outside the sentence like this, would you?
:::With one small change, this point of Dirtlawyer1's should be in a box at the top of every MOS page: {{xt|The Manual of Style works best for everyone when it tracks the conventional practices used by the majority in the real world because that leads to greater voluntary compliance. Attempting to impose a minority practice simply leads to more non-compliance, aggravation, and endless talk page discussion, here and elsewhere.}} Yes! ] (]) 16:54, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
... {{!xt|Joseph Smith bequeathed the manor to his nephew, John Doe, 1st Baron Doe. (1801–1881)}}


::Ergo: normal rules apply, which is that punctuation doesn't precede a parenthetical. (The exception being when there is a complete sentence inside the parentheses, in which case punctuation occurs both at the end of the preceding sentence, i.e. before the parenthetical, and before the closing parenthetical, as shown here.)
:::Dirtlawyer1: you said "''Supporters of British style quotation punctuation/logical quotation in Misplaced Pages feel the need to obscure this reality in order to sidestep the obvious ENGVAR issue.''" I don't think anyone admits to wanting to "obscure the reality" or to intending to "sidetep" an "obvious" issue. That's what I was referring to. --] (]) 17:25, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
::Commas go before and after an appositive (unless there is other punctuation), but that does not necessarily mean immediately after.


::] (]) 10:29, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
:::::Stfg, a lot of articles ''already'' use American punctuation, even featured articles that appear on the front page. I checked every article-of-the-day for a year and change, and some used American. Even more of them were an inconsistent mix. This rule has pretty low compliance already. Reforming WP:LQ it wouldn't make quite as much more work for people as you seem to think; the work is already there. Also, MoS or no MoS, articles that purport to be written in AmE but use BrE punctuation are incorrect and would be improved by being fixed, regardless of what we decide here. ] (]) 17:46, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
:::"Punctuation doesn't precede a parenthetical" is not a rule at all. It's just something you made up.
::::::Excellent. You understand, I'm sure, that I'm on the side of '''''not''''' forcing AmE articles to use LQ. I have a problem with the terminology you're using, and would have a problem if you want to enforce a link between ENGVAR and puctuation style. These problems are elaborated below. --] (]) 18:32, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
:::If the parenthetical were being applied to the nobility title, then the parenthetical should go within the commas that set off the nobility title. But the parenthetical is being applied to the actual name of the person, which came before the nonessential appositive that is set off by commas.
:::If you dislike the placement of the nobility title between the name and the lifespan parenthetical, I wouldn't disagree. I'd happily remove the nobility title entirely from the lead sentence (or heck, the whole article). Or put the lifespan parenthetical first, and then the nobility title. But wherever the nobility appositive is being stuck, it gets set off by commas. That's the rule. ]<sup>(]/])</sup> 13:38, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
:::This one is simple: a comma is ''never'' placed immediately before other punctuation. Instead it's placed ''after'' them or, in case or semicolons and periods, omitted altogether. While ] doesn't say so quite explicitly (supposedly treating it as one of these common sense things that everybody already knows?), it gives an example of how to do it correctly: "Burke and Wills, fed by locals (on beans, fish, and ngardu), survived for a few months." (With the second parenthetical comma ''after'' the closing bracket.) So, by analogy, "John Doe, 1st Baron Doe (1 January 1801 – 31 December 1881), was a Whig politician" is indeed correct. ] (]) 08:58, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
:Concur with the OP and with Gawaon on the typographical point; we don't use a comma right before a round-bracketed parenthetical, nor does much of anyone else in the world. One might make an argument that "logically", in the way a computer program would approach logic, there should or could be one there, and this is the direction Muéro has been going, but human language does not operate on such a basis, being a matter of convention combined with expediency, not a matter of a JSON-like syntax in which a comma that really should not be needed to parse the material must be present anyway or the operation will fail.<p>That said, we do have several interrelating issues in play in this titles and post-noms sector that are worth cataloguing and considering in some detail:</p>
:# Something like "Xerxes Youill Zounds, Grand Poobah of Elbonia–Brobdingnag (3 May 1571 – 24 July 1644), was ..." is {{em|always}} indicating the life-span dates. If there is a need to specify the duration of a peerage, including a change in titles, that should be done in plain English in the article body, and is not going to be lead-sentence or even lead-section material. It's body material, like "Upon the death of his father, Zounds became 3rd poobah of Elbonia on 12 December 1629. He was elevated to 1st grand poobah of Elbonia–Brobdingnag on 20 June 1639 by High King Korki IX of Kerblachistan. Zounds was also the bishop of Lilliput from ca. 1630 to 14 February 1633, when he was defrocked by the archbishop of Elbonia."
:# As an anti-classist myself, I still have to observe/concede that "don't include any titles or post-noms because they are classist" is not a viable position. WP is ], and when any such title or honor (whether earned or hereditary or otherwise) is pertinent to a notable article subject, it should be covered, more prominently the more important it is within the context of their notability. (See below for an idea toward suppressing lead inclusion when not related to notability at all but a late-coming add-on to the pile of someone's life aachievements.)
:# There's a been a very long-standing {{lang|la|de facto}} consensus to always include peerage titles {{em|and}} important post-nominals (but not academic or professional titles or post nominals like "Dr" or "PhD", or guild/union stuff like "]", "]") in the lead sentence. Virtually every applicable article has been written this way.
:# A recent-ish RfC (I seem to have lost the link to it – help me out?) with probably much too low a turnout upended part of this, and now has us remove the post-nominals from the lead {{em|sentence}}. This has not sat well, and actually introduces some writing problems that the RfC participants did not anticipate. For example, WP does not, except in an article on the subject being abbreviated, introduce an acronym/initialism unless it is going to be re-used later in the same article. But if our bio subject's investiture as a ] is covered in the body only, the point at which this is done has no need to a "KCB" appearing at that point, since "KCB" is used as a post-nominal not otherwise and would not be re-used later in the article; the result is that the "KCB" that applies to this person has no logical place to go in the article any longer, since it was actually only pertinent in the lead sentence, attached to the person's name. We could do something very awkward like state that this knighthood entitles/entitled this person to use "Sir" or "Dame" and the post-nominal "KCB", but this sort of blather would have to be repeated throughout many thousands of articles, and was already very concisely conveyed by the original lead sentence without having to spell it out and micro-] the bio article with detailia about how a particular order's nomenclatural rules operate. Simply showing rather than telling was better.<p>So, this really should be re-RfCed, at a higher-profile venue like ] so we are certain that the community at large really wants to impose this lead rule change and its problems all in the name of shaving a few characters off the lead sentence. "The postnoms will be in the infobox anyway" isn't the (or an) answer, since not all bios have infoboxes, and there is staunch resistance to adding them in many cases. A potential compromise might be to not include postnoms in lead sentence but in an infobox when one is present and has a parameter for it.</p>
:#Even without revisiting that with a better RfC, the present wording at ] is daft: "post-nominal letters may be included in the main body of the article, but not in the lead sentence of the article". This has already lead to dispute about whether it means post-noms are banned from the entire lead or only the literal lead sentence, because it only addresses the lead sentence and the post-lead-section article body. The correct answer (if you look at the RfC discussion and the alleged consensus arising from it) is that this should instead read something like "post-nominal letters may be included, but not in the lead sentence of the article"; there was no consenus to ban them from the entire lead section. However, this runs into the problem above: Because post-nominal letters are used directly with full names, and generally only upon first introduction, there effectively is no practical place for them, in the lead section or in the article body, other than the lead sentence (except arguably in an infobox if it's there and has a place for this information).
:#Next, there's a misapprehension here (evidenced in the beginning of this thread) that this anti-postnom RfC result somehow also means to remove peerage and nobility titles from the lead. It does not. They are a different category of thing and were not addressed in that RfC. It is possible that a consensus might be reached to remove peerage titles when they are not pertinent to the subject's notability (e.g. that would have been the case with ] had he remained an actor/director/producer only and not taken a seat in the House of Lords). There are also many life baronetcies created late in the life of the recipients and to little public awareness; a case can be made to exclude them from the lead sentence and probably from the entire lead section. But this is something for a consensus discussion on an article-by-article basis, or for a new RfC if we wanted a categoric rule of some kind about it.
:#A side issue is that some parties from the nobility and peerage wikiprojects have, by ] behavior, programmatically usurped the {{para|name}} parameter of {{tlx|infobox person}} and its offshoots, abusing it to hold the peerage title, when that really belongs in {{para|postnom}} since it is in fact post-nominal (it's just not a post-nominal abbreviation). See ] for the typical absurd result. Because this has been done to thousands and thousands of articles and involves yet another "wikiproject rebellion" against the norms of the entire rest of the project, I suspect this is probably best addressed with another WP:VPPOL RfC so there can be no doubt about the community consensus level of the result (which will obviously be to stop having our infobox blatantly lie to our readers that Margaret Thatcher's {{em|name}} is "The Baroness Thatcher". For the Thatcher case, the obvious solution is: {{para|name|Margaret Hilda Thatcher}}{{para|honorific_suffix|Baroness Thatcher&lt;br /&gt;{{tlp|Post-nominals|country{{=}}GBR|size{{=}}100%|LG|OM|DStJ|PC|FRS|HonFRSC}} }}, and this is what agrees with the lead of the article. (Note lack of "The" before "Baroness".)</p><p>These infoboxes are also failing ] by including honorific {{em|salutation}} phrases like "The Right Honorourable" that are not part of the name in any sense, but used when writing a letter to such a person or when introducing them as speaker, and so on; that sort of information does not belong in a bio article (much less thousands of them robotically) but in an article on forms-of-address etiquette and probably again in the article on the title (baronet or whatever the case may be).
:There are probably other issues to address, but this is a lot already. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] 😼 </span> 13:42, 11 December 2024 (UTC)


== Any objections to extending MOS:TIES to all nations and regions? ==
On terminology: TQ was the standard for the English-speaking world 50 years ago -- Peter Coxhead mentioned having used it, and I was taught it (as the only "correct" form) between 50 and 60 years ago (I'm British). So "American punctuation" is certainly a misnomer. What has happened more recently is that some people have started to adopt LQ. Since you say so, I'll accept that has happened faster in the UK than in North America, but many Brits still use TQ, so "British punctuation" is also a misnomer. Will that evolution speed up, slow down or even go into reverse, and in which countries? Nobody knows. Should we try to accelerate it or to slow it down? No, in my opinion. Why impose a rule on either AmE or BrE writers? If most AmE writers prefer TQ, they will naturally use it. If some BrE writers still prefer TQ (which I believe to be the case), let them use it. And ''mutatis mutandi'' for writers on either side of the pond who prefer LQ. Speaking as someone who has copy edited for writers on both sides of the Atlantic, all I want is not to be forced to de-voice them by imposing a choice of method that differs from their preference. Tying their punctuation to their spelling of {{nobreak|''harbo(u)r''}} is just one way to constrain people's choice of how they write. Why do it? --] (]) 18:32, 25 June 2013 (UTC)


Currently ] qualifies itself to English-speaking nations. However, in an increasingly multicultural world with English emerging as the ], at minimum in the ], why qualify this part of the MoS like that, ESPECIALLY when it also impacts on ]? For example, the ] has 24 official languages, including English, and multilingualism is one of its founding principles.
:As I've said before, I much prefer LQ to TQ but I find some of the arguments here compelling; specifically, if we allow editors to write in any of the recognized standard dialects of English then I think we should be similarly tolerant with respect to punctuation. More precisely, I think that the author of an article should be able to use either punctuation style and MOS should not prefer one over the other, except that the style should be consistent within the article and we shouldn't permit needless conversions from LQ to TQ or vice versa. The reason for this is that for some editors, forcing LQ over TQ may be unnatural and might discourage would-be contributors. Besides, I don't think it's important enough to risk alienating any of our fellow editors over the issue. ]|]|] 19:36, 25 June 2013 (UTC)


Would it not make sense to extend ] to nations (and regions) irrespective of whether they traditionally speak English or not? Because I can see how saying to someone that embraces multilingualism and values Europe's rich linguistic diversity wishing to contribute to an article on a topic with strong ties to their nation or region in the EU, where English is an official language, that in this case that tie doesn’t count (and someone else gets to decide) might be perceived as ... well ... rude and arrogant, which isn't just unnecessary but also unproductive. Would the article not benefit from including anyone with a strong tie to it?
::Stfg, as for "American punctuation" being a misnomer, the bottom line is that no it's not. The overwhelming majority of style guides refer to the two practices by these names. As for usage, if 100% compliance were required, then we wouldn't be able to say "American spelling" or "British spelling" either. I live in the U.S. and watch movies at an establishment with the word "Theatre" written on it and I drive past a "Town Centre."
::I prefer the term "British punctuation" to "logical punctuation" because I feel that LP implies that American punctuation is illogical, but that ''is'' one of the practice's names and I have no ground to tell other people that they're wrong for calling it that.
::Also, I came to accept that LP is a valid name because I saw it used to refer to British punctuation in reliable sources. I've never seen "TQ" in one, however. Do you happen to have one on link?
::The MoS should curtail people's choices by instructing them on correct vs. incorrect English. The case can be made that British English allows either American or British punctuation, but American English requires American, so no, the MoS shouldn't allow British style in American English articles. The national divide on this issue is very real, so we really should have some form of ENGVAR-based rule.
::That beings said, even just allowing editors to use context-correct punctuation would be a huge improvement over requiring context-incorrect punctuation. ] (]) 22:34, 25 June 2013 (UTC)


I must note I would prefer if there was an established international variant, but I also find it practical not to have to waste time and effort trying to work out whether in a given article its meter or metre, organise or organize, or SI first and then imperial, or imperial first and then SI. Because getting it wrong just causes unnecessary consternation, especially if the article is inhabited by one or more "]s". ] (]) 06:41, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
*I've a feeling everyone in this discussion probably pretty much understands everyone else's point of view by now. Has anyone got an idea on how to progress? :) --] (]) 23:35, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
:I'm not in favor of this idea. TIES is an exceptional case that should be used only when it's very clear; the main rule is RETAIN.
:: I agree. Are there any compelling arguments why we would choose to ''not'' follow the multitude of US and UK style guides? I.e., if the punctuation mark is part of the original quoted material then we retain its original placement in said material. What could be easier than that? ] <sup>(]&#124;])</sup> 23:44, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
:In practice I think this proposal comes down to "don't use American English in articles about Europe". I don't agree with that. --] (]) 06:52, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Uh, that's not what the style guides say, GabeMc. The American style guides all say ''not'' to do that. They say that periods and commas go inside the closing quotation marks regardless. For the most part, the British style guides do not.
::{{reply to |Trovatore}} The proposal doesn’t suggest it no longer needs to be clear, nor that that main rule is no longer retain. It simply proposes that MORE voices are heard.
:::That being said, I believe an ENGVAR-based rule would be best, but I could get behind almost anything that even allowed American punctuation in American English articles; I could get behind lifting the ban. ] (]) 00:18, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
::As for the “don’t use American English in Europe” bit ... that would then only happen if most voices then want that. The solution surely isn’t “but I don’t like that, so let’s exclude them from the set of voices allowed to speak”. Fear not, they may choose American, who knows. ] (]) 06:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::: Perhaps I've misrepresented my position. The 16th edition of CMOS (2010) states: "In an alternative system, sometimes called British style&nbsp;... only those punctuation points that appeared in the original material should be included within the quotation marks." That's really all I meant to convey. What am I missing Darkfrog24, I'm the one who quoted 9 styled guides above that agree with you? ] <sup>(]&#124;])</sup> 01:30, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
:Also not in favor for the reasons cited by Trovatore. ] (]) 07:16, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::I was confused because you said "Let's do what the style guides say," but the style guides say to use American punctuation when writing in American English. Yes, those that describe the British system describe it the way you just did. ] (]) 04:19, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
:I do object to this.
:Moreover, from what I understand it's a perennial suggestion, so I recommend perusing ], wherein I happen to embark on a journey from the exact wrong position all the way to the right one, filling your heart with hope for a better future as you follow my progress. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 07:23, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
::If it keeps coming up, perhaps there is something there.
::However, you do highlight its more complex than I originally thought, so back to the drawing board 🤔. ] (]) 06:24, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:'''Not a chance.''' The purpose of MOS:TIES is entirely, only, solely about English-language dialects that exist at a more or less national level and in a formal ] suitable for encyclopedia writing. Under no circumstances would we accept an English pidgin/creole or some vaguely identifiable informal habits of English-as-a-second-language users in some country or region as a "variety of English" to accept for encyclopedia writing. If you encounter "Franglais", "Spanglish", "Deutchlish", etc., in any of our articles it should be normalized on the spot to whichever form of standardized English suits the subject best if there are strong ], or to the form that the article already most closely matches (British, American, Canadian, or some other dialect of a country with majority or official and large minority English usage in a formal register). Another way of looking at this: There is no strong tie between Finland and any form of English. Even the "Well, it at least shouldn't be American, but British, because the UK is part of Europe and the US is not" sort of argument fails, because there's more than one national dialect of English in Europe (Irish, for now, and probably Scottish if they have another independence referendum). If there's not a particular encyclopedia-appropriate variety/dialect of English in widespread use in a country, then that country by definition has no strong tie to any such particular variety. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] 😼 </span> 06:22, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::{{reply to |SMcCandlish}} Thank you for stating very clearly and firmly that {{tq|the purpose of ] is entirely, only, solely about English-language dialects}}, because THAT means my primary concern of how it relates to ] is a non-issue!
::For the record, I did not, and still don’t, propose that “Franglais” and so on become accepted English variants. Because that would be insane, pointless and not useful. ] (]) 06:46, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::If this is something to do with promotion of ''crore'' and ''lakh'' in articles that pertain to India, there's already a big thread about that at ] (again), and last I looked the consensus wasn't really changing: they're permissible as secondary units, but always need to be converted because they don't mean anything to anyone outside India and parts of its immediate neighbors (and of course among first-gen Indic diaspora). Maybe the tide has shifted in that discussion; I last looked at it about a week ago. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] 😼 </span> 06:50, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::No. I wasn’t aware of that thread. ] (]) 06:52, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::The thread to which you refer is “RfC Indian numbering conventions”? ] (]) 06:59, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::I don’t think there is any real overlap with the “RfC Indian numbering conventions” thread.
::::I also think ] is a dog’s breakfast, but happy to leave it alone at this time.
::::Are there any objections then to apply the direction from {{u|SMcCandlish}} that {{tq|the purpose of ] is entirely, only, solely about English-language dialects}} to ] and decouple "respect the principle of 'strong national ties'" from MOS:TIES? For example, change it to "respect the underlying principle of strong national ties as also used in MOS:TIES but in a different context”, and then also qualify the following with ''only''?
::::*In non-scientific articles with strong ties to the United States only, the …
::::*In non-scientific articles with strong ties to the United Kingdom only, the …
::::*In all other articles, the …
::::] (]) 08:34, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::Well, you're been so vague about why you are asking these things, what rationale you could have for making up a new rule or changing any existing one, without any reference to an ongoing and important on-site problem, that all one has been left with is guesswork based on encounters with extant or recent discussions that seem like they could be pertinent. "{{tq|Are there any objections}}"?: '''Yes.''', I can think of a number:
:::::#There is no clear rationale for what you're proposing, much less a consensus to do it. Substantive changes to policies and guidelines (]) need consensus or they will not be accepted (unless they, rarely, hit upon something that needed to adjusted and no one else noticed until now, which isn't the case here).
:::::#There are strong rationales against it, most obviously:
:::::#:A. Your implicit notion that units of measure have no connection to dialect (or "variety" as WP likes to say) is not correct.
:::::#:B. Even if it were, it'd be immaterial. The next implicit idea in your proposal (quite central to it really) is that if P&G page X reiterates a general principle from another, Y, and cites the latter for the explanation, such that X applies that principle to X's circumstances because they are reasonably analogous to Y's, that this somehow creates a ] rules-chain dependency in which every aspect of the context of the cited origin of the principle in Y must also be applicable to the citing circumstances of X. Nothing on Misplaced Pages works that way at all. Cf. ]: it's a mistake to try to interpret our P&G as essentially a legal system (or as something like a procedural programming language, or a chain of dependencies in building software from source code; more than one analogy works).
:::::#:C. Because of point B, and because of the guideline's current "where applicable" wording (which is there for a reason and meaningful), your first rewrite idea, of tacking on a bunch of "respect the underlying principle of strong national ties as also used in MOS:TIES but in a different context" verbiage it entirely superfluous. The two versions convey the same meaning, because it is already understood that the principle (not the detail-by-detail contextual specifics) of TIES is being applied at UNITS. This is the way our entire P&G system operates. It wouldn't really be possible for it to be any other way. If UNITS was literally just restating TIES, down to the specifics of exactly what TIES covers, then UNITS would be redundant (in this regard) with TIES, and its wording about this issue would've been deleted long ago and replaced with a simple cross-reference to TIES without further comment. The kind of exemplary and contextual more-than-crossreferencing done at UNITS is entirely normal. And important: an editor looking for "what to do about units" is unlikely to instead stumble upon "what to do about national-level usage disputes", and so would be unlikely to find the TIES principles and then be certain how to contextually apply them (if at all) to units, without being basically an expert in our style guide the way some Tolkien fans learn Elvish.
:::::#:D. The next bit of suggested rewriting is to inject "only" into two line items, but this change would have a nonsensical and undesirable result in two ways: It would make those items applicable under no circumstances to anywhere but the US and the UK, respectively (even to former UK colonies with English- and units-usage norms virtually indistinguishable from British in an encyclopedic ]); and it would necessitate (to fix that new problem) expanding that into a long list of every country with anything that WP would consider a "national variety of English" with pertinent unit-usage norms. The purpose of those two examples is {{em|as examples}} (not as an exhaustive list) of how to approach these matters. The examples were chosen because they settled previously recurrent disputes. So, what long-term, recurrent, serious problem can you point to that you think your changes would resolve? The examples are not there to serve as the beginning of an ever-growing rulebook to address every imaginable case with a new micro-topical line item to thump. The purpose of giving a general principle and providing some prominent examples is to obviate the need to have a pile of micro-rules. (MOS:NUM is already too detailed as it is.)
:::::# The long-term stability of these guidelines is very important, because even small but meaningful/operative changes to them can affect many thousands up to potentially millions of articles, for reasons that almost always resolve to trivial and subjective peccadilloes. That cascading-wave-of-unneeded-changes problem (and all the fighting the endless trivial tweaks would generate) is never more of a danger than when a national-level and frequent usage matter is at issue (and literally millions of our articles do have measures with units in them). See also ]: If MoS, after 20-odd years, doesn't already have a rule about something, then it needs to {{em|not}} have a rule about it, because it is not necessary for the project to do what it does successfully, and MoS is already way too long.
:::::# Your "I also think ] is a dog's breakfast, but happy to leave it alone at this time" approach does not bode well. Our policies and guidelines don't exist as hills to die on. The purpose of these style guidelines is (aside from the main one of producing intelligible and consistent content for our readers) {{em|dissuading}} style-warring behavior. Arriving with the idea that the rules are broken and that at some forthcoming time you're going to fix them is antithetical to their purpose and to the needs of the community. It largely doesn't matter {{em|what}} any particular line-item in MoS sets out (except when there is objectively a reader-clarity improvement offered by one option over another), only that it sets out, and long-term retains, {{em|something}} that addresses a recurrent dispute pattern and brings it mostly (hopefully entirely) to an end, and/or that it produces better content for our readers – even if that "something" is arbitrary or is a compromise that can't please everyone. Just as a word to the wise, ] (including TIES) is pretty much the hardest-fought consensus compromise reached in MoS's history, and is also one of the oldest and most stable, so if you think you're going to make serious changes to it, you are very mistaken. It's like going to Canada and declaring your mission is to undo the country's approach to French and English as official languages.
:::::This might all come off as harsh, but ], and the vast majority of proposals to change any P&G are off the mark. There are many devils in many details (thus the length of this), with a lot of nuanced interrelations between different rules (or advice or best practices or whatever you want to call them). Most of the real kinks were worked out long ago. Those that remain are subject to long-term dispute that hasn't produced a workable compromise. There is no such dispute about the material you want to change. And there are sometimes severe costs for making changes that are not vital to make.<!--
-->PS: I've tried hard to find a "yes" to put into this pile of "no", and there is one! Namely, your version is correct that the "scare quotes" around ''strong national ties'' shouldn't be there. I just went and removed them, so thanks for that. Otherwise, no element of your draft appears to be clearly an improvement. Here's the original wording: {{xt|The choice of primary units depends on the circumstances, and should respect the principle of ], where applicable}}. Here's yours (presumably also keeping the original's first 10 words and the link): {{!xt|respect the underlying principle of strong national ties as also used in ] but in a different context}}. Mentioning the other guideline by name is redundant with linking to it, and all our P&G pages are fairly (not entirely) consistent in, when practical, using plain English with links around pertinent terms rather than injecting page names. Mentioning it by shortcut in particular is "newbie-unfriendly" and wrongly presumes memorization of our shortcut strings. "Underlying" is a puff word and doesn't serve a concrete purpose in the sentence. (And underlying what? It has no clear downstream referent.) "As also used in" is more redundancy; if we're linking to TIES as the locus of the principle, it's already automatically understood that the principle is applied at the place we're linking to. "But in a different context" is a combination of redundancy with the implication of the link again, and quite odd wording: Why is there a "but" in this? (What it is contrasting against?) "Different" from what? Different in what way? And "context" is conceptually misused in this construction, in that the general principle at TIES is a meta-context, of all usage/style disputes pertaining to national-level English dialects, while use of units is a subset of that, a sub-context, not a conflicting/alternative context. Finally, unit usage is only {{em|sometimes}} a subset of the usage in a national variety of English, thus the original's "where applicable" – a key point that your version drops, despite it seeming to be central to the bee in your bonnet. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] 😼 </span> 11:54, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::Introducing Scottish as an additional form of English would cause mayhem - or at least a shedload of future editing - here. We’ve already had a nationalist-driven push towards replacing ‘British’ with ‘English’ or ‘Scottish’ in bio articles, usually uncited and based purely on supposition or the subject’s birthplace. Fortunately, Scottish Independence appears to be receding as a prospect, at least in the short to medium term. ] (]) 07:48, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::I don't disagree (and we had a real template at {{tlx|Use Scottish English}} in 2013, with an attempt to re-create it in 2016). Several years ago, I tried to get rid of all the "Use {{var|Foo}} English", and related, templates declaring "national varieties" that, in reality, are completely indistinguishable from general British English {{em|in an encyclopedic register}}, and could all collectively be covered by a "Use Commonwealth English" template. ENGVAR only applies to national (not subnational) varieties, and only those dialects that exist in distinct forms and with a formal register (by definition: if you can't write encyclopedia-appropriate material in a dialect, then it doesn't belong in our articles for any reason, so ENGVAR cannot be used to "protect" it from edits). But nationalistic sentiments won out in the end, and we still have all that claptrap, with ridiculous results like articles being tagged with {{tlx|Use Jamaican English}}, {{tlx|Use Singaporean English}}, etc. (Likewise we have no use of American-splitoff variants, either, like "Use Guam English", etc.) Too many editors who should know better and should think just a tiny bit harder have utterly mistaken the purpose of these as something like "national pride" flags to put on articles, in a verging-on-] manner. These tags absolutely do not resolve to "write an article about Nigeria using colloquialisms and grammatical oddities found only in the informal speech and writing of English in Nigeria, which will be confusing to everyone else in the world". If someone tries that crap in response to such a template, rewrite the material per ] and ]. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] 😼 </span> 11:54, 23 December 2024 (UTC)


===Four options regarding MOS:LQ=== == MOS:NOTGALLERY ==
{{formerly|Four options}}


At another talk page, I was writing an explanation of why articles should not be swamped in a plethora of images, planning to cite ]. Fortunately for once I checked first and found that it is just an alias for ], not a statement that article spaces should not be mirrors of Commons.
It seems we have four options:


Given that the majority of visitors do so on mobile phones, is there a case for an explicit policy that says that curation is essential, ]?
# Keep WP:LQ as it is, requiring British/logical punctuation in all articles regardless of the national variety of English in which the article purports to be written.
# Require American punctuation in American English articles and British/logical punctuation in British articles, etc.
# Require American punctuation in American English articles but allow either style in British articles so long as each article is internally consistent.
# Allow either style of punctuation in any article so long as each article is internally consistent.


Or would it be enough to change the target of NOTGALLERY to ] (which might need a little expansion because right now it just says {{tq|Images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context, not primarily decorative. They are often an important ] to understanding. When possible, find better images and improve captions instead of simply removing poor or inappropriate ones, especially on pages with few visuals. However, not every article needs images, and too many can be distracting.}} At least a reference to ]? (which is expressed in terms of word count, not megabytes, so would also need work). ] (]) 17:48, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
The second of these two options seems to be the one that reflects the source material most accurately, but others have argued that British English really allows either style. I don't ''like'' the fourth option, but it's definitely better than the first one. ] (]) 00:43, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
:::I can accept the fourth option provided the styles are not described with national labels. --] (]) 00:46, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
::::Options 2 and 3 are absurd; there is some evidence that the styles are changing; if they do, are we going to rewrite all the articles in question? I prefer #1 as being unambiguous (particularly in regard quotes within quotes), but could accept #4. — ] ] 01:20, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::I don't know what you mean by styles changing. American English has ''always'' required American punctuation and has always forbidden British, going back to at least 1906. We're not talking about changing WP:LQ to reflect some recent change in the English language. The rule contradicted the requirements of American English even when it was first put in place. ] (]) 01:25, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::I have seen a number of specific journal style guides which provide for LQ, whether or not published in the US. Furthermore, at my last full-time employer (based in the US, but multinational) the style guide specified LQ. I'm saying that the preferred style is subject to change, and is changing. — ] ] 02:30, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::::A few weeks ago, a bunch of us dug around looking for style guides that dealt with this issue . If you'd seen one that specifically said to use B/LQ in American English, I'd be very interested in seeing it as well. It would be highly relevant. Did it have an official name? Also, in what industry were you working? Law? Programming? Literary criticism?
:::::::As for the language changing, of course it is. No contest there. But at any given point in time, there are things that are correct and things that are incorrect. Right now, American English requires American punctuation. If B/LQ becomes standard AmE in five or twenty years down the line, we can always change the MoS when it happens. ] (]) 04:23, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
* I find 1 through 3 unappealing (if #1 worked in practice, this thread would not be two miles long), but I support the fourth option. ] <sup>(]&#124;])</sup> 01:32, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
*DF, it's not a simple them-and-us pattern, is it? See what Arthur has pointed out above. ] ] 02:39, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
* Generally, the period inside non-full-sentence quotes looks awkward and messed-up, so I'll have to go with "option 1". I will never use "American style" punctuation all the time, nor will I be required to. I'd rather just stick with the "logical punctuation" style rather than us having to restart this debate over and over again and be forced go with the "punctuation-inside-the-quotes-all-the-time" crowd. ] (]) 04:05, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
::Tony, regardless of whether British English permits both, it is pretty clear that American English doesn't. That part is simple.
::Jim856796, British style looks awkward and wrong to me, but I've used it when writing in British English. In the years that I've seen this matter discussed, appearance has shown itself to be an eye of the beholder thing. As for "punctuation-inside-the-quote-all-the-time," I don't think I've encountered anyone who's seriously advocated that. It would be wrong to require a system that is incorrect in one major national variety throughout all of Misplaced Pages. That's why "Require American punctuation in all articles" isn't among the options listed above. ] (]) 04:19, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
:::No, American ''English'', the language, does not in fact require TQ. It's not properly a language issue per se, at least not in the usual sense &mdash; it's more of a typography issue. You can say that American ''style manuals'' (or at least most of them) require TQ. --] (]) 05:47, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
::::I can say that the style manuals require it. I can also say that teachers require it in school. I can also say that the professional-level and educated writers use it. I can also say that this is how nearly the entirety of American literature is written. All of this together adds up to "the language requires it"/"it is correct American English." If you want me to stop saying it, show me comparable or better reasons why I should. ] (]) 06:18, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
::::: It's still a typography issue, not the language in the usual sense. To the extent that it's an issue of the ''formal'' language, TQ is just an error; no one would intentionally design that into a formal system. For the language in the informal sense, it's just not part of it. --] (]) 06:22, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::Trovatore, the word "error" means "The act or an instance of deviating from an accepted code of behavior, especially unintentionally." The style guides all say to do it; teachers all say to do it; professional writers all do it. It's safe to say that American punctuation is ''not'' an error. It is 1. in compliance with said code of behavior and 2. deliberate. You should really stop throwing around words like "error."
::::::But if you were writing an encyclopedia, you wouldn't be designing a system for computers, Trovatore, you'd be designing it for human beings whose brains process images and visual meaning in some very counterintuitive ways. It doesn't make sense that serif and sans serif fonts are easier or harder to read depending on the light source, but they are. I wouldn't be surprised if American punctuation is one day proven to be literally easier on the eyes in a similar way. From what a century and change of trial and error have told us, though, there are no obvious differences in performance between U.S. and British punctuation systems. ] (]) 07:10, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::::DF, obviously that's not the sense of the word "error" that I meant. It's an error more in the sense of getting the wrong answer to a problem, not in the sense of conforming to a code of behavior. Punctuation is there to mark the logical structure of an utterance. TQ fails to accomplish that, at least in as direct a way as possible. --] (]) 07:21, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::::Only if you treat every symbol that is between the quote marks as a literal character string, as in computer programming. That's not the way reading actual words works, though. It is understood that by readers familiar with TQ (which is the vast majority of English readers, by the way) that the included comma/stop is part of the quoting process, part of the quote mark really. ] (]) 08:53, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::I have to agree with Oknazevad, Trovatore. It's not clear how using American punctuation would be like the wrong answer to a problem. The problem is communication, and American punctuation solves it perfectly well. ] (]) 15:48, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::It's not about strings. It's about what parts of the sentence are to be parsed as belonging to what. If I say something like
:::::::::::I love the word "Tucumcari", and so does John.
::::::::::then the comma distinguishes the two clauses, whereas the quote marks serve to mark the ] (I am mentioning the word "Tucumcari" but not using it). But the entire word in quotes belongs to the first clause. It makes no sense to break the clauses ''inside'' the use–mention marker. --] (]) 22:27, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::But there's also no reason ''not'' to. Nothing impedes the flow of the sentence. Nothing hinders the reader's comprehension. If anything, the fact that the comma, which tells the reader to stop talking momentarily, does ''not'' come immediately after the word could be mistakenly interpreted as an indicator that there were more words to come before any pause, causing the reader to skip or stumble. I haven't seen any evidence proving that this happens, but I haven't seen any proving that placing commas the way the Brits do helps anything either. Remember, we're dealing with a human reader who has a human brain and not with a computer. ] (]) 23:06, 27 June 2013 (UTC)


:I think IMAGEREL would be a better redirect target. I want this to point to guidance that images should be included selectively rather than overwhelming articles with images. NOTDB instead seems to be guidance that images should be relevant and accompanied by text, which is not enough to prevent big indiscriminate galleries. —] (]) 20:52, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
'''No consensus?''' The problem seems to be that there would {{em|now}} appear to be no consensus to introduce the current rule requiring LQ everywhere. But neither is there a clear consensus to remove it. Sigh... ] (]) 08:31, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
:There's certainly no unanimity, and I don't see how we're ever going to reach it. But has anyone actually said they wouldn't accept option 4 as a compromise? --] (]) 08:40, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
::It's not perfect, but option four does allow for most anyone to do what they feel is best. Actually, that no one is fully happy with it and only support it grudgingly is actually a sign of a good compromise. ] (]) 08:53, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
:::Ok, so we need to stop discussing – which is going nowhere – and see if there is indeed a consensus on option 4. ] (]) 10:16, 26 June 2013 (UTC)


::I've had second thoughts about this one. It is probably not wise to make NOTGALLERY an exception to the general rule that WP:NOTaaaaaaaa shortcuts all redirect to ]. So the better plan is to add a short sentence to the current target to say that {{tq|Misplaced Pages is not a database of images or a {{lang|fr|]}}; those are among the functions of ]. Image use in Misplaced Pages articles must comply with ].}} I will do that now.
'''Support option four'''. I would prefer option two or three, but anything that ''allows'' editors to go in and correct the punctuation in American English articles would be an improvement over the current rule. ] (]) 15:53, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
:I need to understand something: Are you saying that an editor who creates an article in AmE would not be allowed the choice of punctuation method; and if they tried to use LQ, they could be overruled by another editor who considers that period/comma-inside-quotes is the only permissible method for AmE articles? --] (]) 16:58, 26 June 2013 (UTC) ::IMAGEREL needs some work too, to make it even more explicit that to bury an article in a mass of images is sure way to ensure that nobody reads it. --] (]) 10:43, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
:While some types of "galleries" should be avoided, articles on certain visual topics do benefit from many visual examples. I also do not think we should explicitly outlaw the ] model while allowing many other bibliographic lists. One size does not fit all, and such a change would need to be debated with the folks curating ] and those who work on visual topics. —] (]) 10:57, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
::My take on the matter? I'd go to the talk page of an American article that used British punctuation and say, "Hey, anyone mind if I change the British punctuation to American? We're allowed to do that now." Then I'd wait a day or two and when no one responded&mdash;because almost no one but us ''cares'' about this&mdash;I'd go in and make the changes. I guess it could work in the other direction as well. As far as the wording, it would treat American and British styles equally. I don't think that's good, but it's better than British-no-matter-what. ] (]) 17:48, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
::Pending further discussion, I have removed the reference to ''catalogue raisonné'' from my amendment (so that it now reads simply {{tq|Misplaced Pages articles are not a repository of images: image use in Misplaced Pages articles must comply with ].}} to item 4, "Photographs or media files".
:::Perfect, thanks. I was actually about to strike my question, having realised that it seemed to imply option 3. That was unintentional and I apologise for it. --] (]) 17:59, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
::I agree certainly that, in an article about an artist or an artistic movement, it is essential to illustrate the phases of their artistic development. That to me is clearly in keeping with IMAGEREL and wp:localconsensus can determine relevancy. But to include an image of <em>every</em> work in an artist's '']''? How is that a valid exception to NOTDB? (and likely a COPYVIO too). And why not show every putter manufactured by ACME Golf Inc? every locomotive made by ACME Rail Inc? every postage stamp (including all misprints) produced by the Austro-Hungarian empire? We have articles so swamped in pointless images that they have become essentially unusable to visitors on mobile. How does that make any sense? --] (]) 11:34, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
:::I would definitely oppose including every work in an artist's oeuvre in an article on the ''artist'', but I want to make sure we do not outlaw ], where the images are perfectly encyclopaedic and just as relevant for identification as the images in ]. Tables in such long lists are often not great for small screens, but that is a separate issue from the number of images. Generally, lists are not the same as other articles in their use of images, so the rules should reflect that. —] (]) 12:25, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
::::I don't see a problem with that. Clearly the application of IMAGEREL should (and would) be different between a list article v a fairly broad concept article. To take your example, it would be entirely reasonable to include every image we have in the list article, provided that we use small thumbnails (upright=0.2); conversely (IMO) the bio article about Munch should be curated so that it has just one carefully chosen image to illustrate each phase of the development of his style , with maybe one or two especially notable examples that he did . Surely we don't want to replicate Commons? --] (]) 18:23, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
:Please, let's not compromise the full extent of the encyclopedia by limiting what has always been one of its main features. Images and galleries define and describe just as much as text. That many choose to "read" Misplaced Pages on tinier gadgets should not dictate the coverage and image-styling of encyclopedic content articles. ] (]) 11:49, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
::The problem we have at the moment with some articles is what {{u|David Eppstein}} describes above as "big indiscriminate galleries" and rote copying of everything in Commons for no evident informative purpose, a form of ]. As IMAGEREL begins, "Images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context, not primarily decorative. They are often an important ] to understanding". Without curation, the information gets buried in the woodpile.
::I am not proposing a principle that we must minimise the number of images, period. My proposal is that we provide a policy basis that editors can use to say "that point is already adequately illustrated, another image adds nothing new" or "this article had become so bogged down in images that it no longer navigable". I am talking about edge cases here, in most articles it is not an issue. But some have become swamped in an uncritical replica of Commons. This is not to enable wikilawyering, it just makes it easier to explain the rationale. --] (]) 18:23, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
:::As an example of the sort of burying articles in galleries that I would object to, see ], where (at least in its ) four of its six sections are entirely image galleries (in some cases hidden in collapsed templates, with much of their content peripheral to the main article topic).
:::We do need wording that distinguishes this case from ], where the galleries are entirely appropriate, though. —] (]) 18:29, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
::::But as far as I can see, the List of paintings by Edvard Munch (and similar lists by artists) already complies with IMAGEREL, because the use of images in that article is ''proportionate and entirely relevant to that context''. Conversely, to put all those paintings in the Munch bio article as a giant gallery would not be proportionate (IMO).
::::So to focus this discussion, can anyone suggest another sentence we can use to amplify the point made in the opening sentence of IMAGEREL? ("Images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context, not primarily decorative. They are often an important illustrative aid to understanding".) How about
::::{{blockquote|Consequently, each image in an article should have a clear and unique illustrative purpose: for guidance, see ].}}
::::AFAICS, that responds to and respects both the Munch examples above. (FWIW, very few if any of the visual arts articles suffer from this swamping problem. The issue affects high profile articles like ].) ] (]) 11:29, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
:It is entirely enough that we have the ] shortcut. A proposal to retarget ] to that would almost certainly fail, because it's part of a very long-standing set of policy (not guideline) WP:NOT{{var|FOO}} shortcuts to sections of ], and such a change would both confuse editors today and render archived discussions of policy misleading. "Ain't broke; don't fix it." <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] 😼 </span> 06:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)


== Audio video guidance ==
'''Support option four'''. I support the option that is least restrictive in that it also allows for the unlikely possibility that an editor might be neither British nor American and thus unfamiliar with the nuances of whether to put a full stop inside the quote marks or a period on the outside. It also allows WP to accommodate emerging changes in punctuation styles without having to revisit the policy, which will free us to handle more pressing issues such as whether to assign ] labels or descriptive labels to the various punctuation styles while discussing them on talk pages. ]|]|] 17:37, 26 June 2013 (UTC)


Hi there, I'm noting a lack of guidance for Audio video content, I've mentioned this at ]. It seems people just edit MOS rather than run through large discussions, but I'm reluctant to start plunging in before getting some help. Here is what i think is needed:
'''Support option four''' provided that: (a) the words "American" and "British" are not used in the definition and that nothing is said to tie to two systems to nationalities, even implicitly; (b) change to existing articles requires consensus on the article's talk page. --] (]) 16:27, 27 June 2013 (UTC)


* Something explaining that the guidance at ] applies to Audio-video content in most cases, eg regarding relevance, image quality, textual information, offensive images, placement, size, location, availability. Nearly all of the page is relevant, in fact.
'''Support option four provided the styles are not described by national labels.''' --] (]) 20:04, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
* The download advice might need to be different. Do videos or audio need a warning that they are large files? This is not assumed, it seems.


There is a case for some separate AV guidance, regarding:
'''Support option four'''. - Just in case my above support is not clear or has been lost in the thread. ] <sup>(]&#124;])</sup> 20:29, 26 June 2013 (UTC)


* Length: should inline videos be shorter where possible? Does this apply to audio clips?
'''Reject the premise''' – I still don't think it's fair to call LQ "British" style and to lobby to use it selectively or only on British articles, just because it originated there and is more common there. It was adopted as WP style because it is more logical, conveying intended meaning better, and that's good enough reason to continue to recommend it as the preferred style and to work toward using it more consistently. ] (]) 21:54, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
* Language: if audio or video is original language, should subtitled content be preferred rather than recording originals? Should songs be subtitled where possible? What are the requirements for validating translations (what are the relevant WP policies on translation of original source material that apply?)
* Rendition: historical accents and historical musical performances might be very rare. Should we say that modern standards are fine, in the absence of authentic reconstructions?
* Public domain renditions: if audio or video is a rendition of a public domain source, for example a work by Mozart, or a speech by Caesar, what are the requirements for source validation (these should reference WP's general guidelines, but these are mostly focused on secondary sources).


] ] 20:25, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
'''Support option four''' – I've been keeping tabs on this discussion, and I also agree it is the best available compromise. —<B>]</B> <sup>]</sup><sub style="margin-left:-3ex;">]</sub> 22:01, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
*Elsewhere, someone asked whether an RfC would be needed to add guidance on this topic. I think not -- while discussion will be needed on details, I can't see anyone objecting to clarifying that multimedia beyond everyday images should follow similar guidelines to those for image. The question is where to say that. We don't want to duplicate guidance on contextual significance etc., because that creates two things that need to be kept in sync. Probably the best thing is to expand MOS/Images to explicitly cover other multimedia. See BTW ], which has a ''contextual significance'' section. ]] 20:39, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
*:Thanks very much (and yes that was me!) I agree that MOS:Images would be best, especially to get this started.
*:The ''contextual significance'' contains much about in-copyright works. That is in general very helpful. In-copyright video samples feels like something rather complex that might need an RFC, and might be best parked until there is a little more in place. ] ] 20:49, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
*::@] Would it be helpful if I draft up something on ] and ask for feedback? ] ] 21:03, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::I suggest you wait a while so that the experienced editors gathered here can lend their thoughts. After that, you might take the conversation back to Talk:MOS/Images, but since that page has 1/5 watchers of this one, and you've already put a pointer there to this thread here, it might be better to continue here as you begin to draft. There's no hurry to this, so the slower you take it, and the greater the extent to which others can get their thoughts in, the smoother it will go. (I'm afraid I'm really tied up IRL so the time I myslf can contribute is limited.) ]] 21:24, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::Happy to wait. I made a stab at below, but I can wait for further thoughts / feedback here. What I've provided relates to historical source content, as most of the AV I've been dealing with falls into this category; I have guessed at some other considerations but it is currently narrower than it should be. ] ] 21:44, 16 December 2024 (UTC)


<blockquote>Audiovisual content can also be used for illustrative purposes. Most of the guidance on images above applies to audio visual content. Additionally, consider:
'''Reject the premise'''. If called LQ (logical quotation) and TP (typographical punctuation), no mention is made of "American" or "British" punctuation in the guideline, and no implication that the selection should be made on the basis of ], I might reluctantly accept the modified option 4. I don't think that's going to be proposed. (BTW, TP placed commas and periods inside, question marks and exclamation points where appropriate, and colons and semicolons outside. Some people have claimed that colons and semicolons were placed "logically" in TP.) — ] ] 22:31, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
*'''Reject option 4'''. The claim that LQ is predominate '''on the web''' suggested we do not need to change. — ] ] 01:48, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


* '''Length''': inline videos or audio that is shorter will be easier for users to watch. Consider clipping long form content, and linking to the original on Commons, or elsewhere. Longer videos (eg, over 10 minutes) may be more suitable for links than inline video, unless they are highly relevant to the page's subject.
'''Reject the premise.''' Darkfrog, is this a continuation of a campaign to cut deep boundaries through English on some nationalistic basis? As usual, it's an exaggeration or inaccurate representation of the reality. seeking to make this a nationalistic issue. I strongly attempt any attempt to tag this issue as "North American" (that's your empire, is it?) and British. And it's bemusing to see people here dividing the world up into American and British linguistic empires. This will go nowhere useful. And per Dicklyon, I reject the premise. ] ] 01:41, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
* '''Rendition''': historical accents and historical musical performances of content may be very rare. Modern renditions are fine, where authentic reconstructions are not available, and may be preferred, where there is uncertainty about the original performances.
:::Tony, it's not inaccurate. It is what the sources ''all'' say. I'm not cutting or inventing boundaries. The English language was like that when I got here! You've always struck me as a reasonably sensible person. Why ''don't'' you believe that American English requires American punctuation when you are repeatedly shown proof that it does? If there is some other, more powerful evidence showing that all the style guides are wrong, then why haven't you or anyone else shared it here?
* '''Musical, poetic and literary content''': aesthetic considerations are higher for these kinds of content. Where possible, the performances should be considered good by other editors. Where editors find performances are poor, content should generally not be included.
:::Honestly. It's as if you think I'm crazy or disconnected from reality. That would make sense if I believed the opposite of what the sources say, but I don't. Why do you think I'm messing with you? I keep showing people links to style guides and they answer "Well these sources are not perfect for reasons A and B," but sources showing that I'm wrong? None whatsoever! Of course I haven't changed my position.
* '''Language''': where audio or video is in the original language, subtitles should generally be preferred rather than translated versions, as this reflects the original more closely and text files are easier to correct than mistakes in audio-visual content. Where possible, songs should be subtitled. Original language versions should be made available where where possible for artistic content.
:::As for this whole "reject the premise" thing, ''what premise'' are you talking about? The four options listed above? They're 1. Keep LQ, 2. Replace LQ with this 3. Replace LQ with that 4. Replace LQ with the other thing. That's not a premise. I don't understand why you don't just say "Support option one." Is it the terminology? I deliberately used both of the British system's names. (The American system has only one name that I've seen in reliable sources, so I only used that one.) ] (]) 02:38, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
* '''Translations of subtitles''' should be verifiable, but as with other Misplaced Pages content, competent editors can create them. While academic translations are preferred, where subtitle translations are longer than 10-20 words, use of academic translations is likely to constitute copyright infringement. Here, a Wikipedian's translation should ideally be verifiable against an academic translation. (See ] for further guidance.)
::::Your premise, starting in Option 1, is that LQ is British. Your first option, "Keep WP:LQ as it is, requiring British/logical punctuation in all articles regardless of the national variety of English...", seems to designed to dissuade people from the default, based on purported national differences; it would be more simply and neutrally stated as a simple "Keep WP:LQ as it is, recommending logical punctuation in all articles...", which is what we'll do, lacking a proper RFC establishing a consensus to do otherwise. ] (]) 06:15, 27 June 2013 (UTC
* '''Public domain renditions''': if audio or video is a rendition of a public domain source, for example a work by Mozart, or a speech by Caesar, the original sources must be valid. The performance should be comparable and follow the original. Where possible, include links on media file pages so that editors can make checks.
::::::Dicklyon, 1. regardless of whether or not it ''is'' British, "British style" is indisputably its correct name and the name by which this practice is best known. You don't like that, but you have to deal with it. I don't approve of the name "logical punctuation" because it endorses the premise that British style is logical, but that ''is'' its name, so I used both. 2. It's British. It's endorsed by British style guides, taught in British schools and used in British nonfiction materials, but ''not'' by/in American counterparts. ''That makes it British.'' ] (]) 14:59, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
* '''Sourcing''': as with images, sourcing of audio-visual content needs to be copyright compliant. Sources of CC video and audio can include Youtube, Flickr and CC search tools. Care should be taken to ensure the licensing claims appear to be valid.
:::::::Errr ... no ... these nationalistic tags are inaccurate. And as I've said before, the division of the whole world into two empires is troubling. The British don't own LQ, and often they don't use it (see their newspapers). And some US academic journals require LQ, don't they? ] ] 14:56, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
* See also: ]</blockquote> ] ] 21:50, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::Have you read ''The Guardian'', Tony? Hey, here's ''I, Claudius'' off my shelf. Yes, the British use British style. As to whether they own it, well it can be credited to Fowler and Fowler's ''The King's English'' and the majority of Brits use it. That makes it British. If you want to make the case that the British don't ''only'' use British style, then that's another matter. Remember that I'm the one who put option three in that list; some contributors here were starting to make a reasonably convincing case. However, you ''can't'' make the case that standard American English allows both. In U.S. English, tucked-in commas are required. Option three reflects this.
::::::::The reliable sources refer to these practices as "British" and "American," and usually by no other names. That means that ''those are their names''. You don't ''like'' that they're called this, just as I don't like that British style is also called "logical," but I looked at the sources, connected with reality, and accepted that this practice has a name that I don't like and that can be used to frame this argument in a way that is damaging to my side. If I can deal with that, then you can too.
::::::::U.S. publications that use British style are 1. extremely rare and 2. overwhelmingly specialist publications. Remember that bit about the ornithology journals and the capitalization of bird names? They adopted that practice for reasons that are not relevant to an encyclopedia. Misplaced Pages is a general-English publication and uses general-English rules.
::::::::Tony, I'll say it flat-out: I find it extremely hard to believe that you don't know perfectly well that "American" and "British" are valid names for these punctuation practices. You're not stupid. You know what it means when there's this level of consensus among professional sources. It means that what they're doing is correct, even if it's not the only correct thing. You want people to stop using these names because they frame the issue in a way that doesn't support your own opinions, and that is childish. Stop it. ] (]) 17:27, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


:The "Language" point is a bit unclear to me. Is it asking for subtitles to be in English or the original language? If the phrase "rather than translated versions" is referring to the spoken or written material, that seems to contradict the phrase "where audio or video is in the original language". Which is also a weird way to say it because the "original language" could be English. Given that this is English Misplaced Pages, an English version should be provided whether or not there is a non-English version.
'''Support Option 4''' to provide a measure of flexibility to use the predominant style of American quotation punctuation in articles written in American or Canadian English, or where otherwise appropriate, such as articles regarding regarding British fiction, where the older "typographical punctuation" remains in common use even in Britain. In its final form, the provision should permit consensus to be determined at the article level, so that BS/LQ may be used as appropriate even in American English for such topics as computer programming, etc. ] (]) 03:04, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
:Subtitles should be provided for all videos with an audio track, to make them accessible for readers who cannot hear or find it difficult. There are additional guidelines at ].
*First, this is not a properly constructed RFC—especially when the changes proposed affect a long-standing guideline that involves almost every article on the site. This has every appearance, to me, of a small-sample straw poll. As such, it can be no basis for actually tampering with the MOS text.<p>We could discuss technical improvements, but not in such a chaotic framework. ] ] 05:59, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
:Not sure the "Sourcing" point needs to be made, as this is explained in detail for images generally.
::It's not an RFC. We could try to construct one, but this straw poll very much suggests that we wouldn't even be able to agree what words to use for the question, much less how to cover all the necessary detail. IMO Dirtlawyer1's formulation just above is a pretty good headline for option 4, but the question of the national labels looks like a showstopper, and it's not the first time that it's come up; recent archives are rather full of words about it, but rather empty of progress. Tony, do you have an idea for a less "chaotic" discussion framework that might get us some progress? --] (]) 09:06, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
:The "Length" point should probably link to the ] and point out the copyright issue when displaying here under fair use. It should say "video" not "videos" to be grammatical.
:::Names don't have to be a showstopper. I could get behind using no names at all. "There are two practices. In one, periods and commas are placed inside closing quotation marks every time. In the other, they are placed inside the quotation marks if they apply to the quoted material and outside if they are not, as with question marks." Boom. The practices are explained without anyone throwing an "American" or "logical" onto the pile for us to fight about. ] (]) 15:05, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
:I would drop the "Translations of subtitles" point and just link to ] for guidance on translations.
::::Ah, very good. I can get behind that, too, and have changed my comment accordingly. --] (]) 16:27, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
:The "Public domain renditions" point does not make any sense to me, and I would just drop it.
:::::Because frankly, if we're not going to use the most common names for these systems, then I'd have to insist that we not use their secondary names either. You don't like that the name "British style" frames British style as British and I don't like that "logical punctuation" frames it as logical. Saying nothing about either style's name or names would work.
:I'm not sure whether the "Rendition" point needs to be made, but if it does, it's confusing. I think it's supposed to be recommending that historically accurate renditions of older works are preferred, if available. Maybe that's true, maybe it isn't, depending on what the purpose of inclusion in the article is. Might be better just to leave this point off; I don't see any similar guidance for audio samples of music. Page editors can decide which samples are best out of those available.
:::::I could also get behind calling them "American style" and "logical style," though "American style and British/logical style" would be my first pick. The issue of what these styles are called and why is already addressed in the article space. ] (]) 17:00, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
:Another point probably worth making is that a video should be considered an optional part of an article. In other words, any content vital to reader understanding should be included in the text and not be omitted on the assumption that reader will watch the video. Many readers will not be able to view video due to technical limitations, such as using a web browser that is not configured with a video player, or reading an article in another medium such as an app, paper printout, or text-to-speech system (including those who cannot see or find it difficult to read text). There is more specific guidance against putting text in images at ].
:It's fine for a video to re-explain something that's already explained in the text if having a moving image clarifies substantially, but it seems wasteful for embedded videos to effectively repeat or rephrase the text.
:-- ] (]) 22:49, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
::Thanks very much!
::* Regarding '''language''', this was meant to be about non-English content, think Bach or Mozart in German or Latin; or Goethe's poetry.
::* On '''Sourcing''', the section on images does not include YT, which is significant for CC video.
::* On '''translation''', the situation for subtitles is a bit different, as usually you cannot use academic in-copyright translations, so this mention is retained.
::* On '''public domain renditions''', this was the subject of a ]. Does that help? Take a file such as ]. There is some need for verification, even tho it is not being used as a citation? I've edited it for clarity.
::* On '''style of renditions''', this has come up a few times in discussion, including at the link above, where a user claimed only a Catholic priest could do a Latin audio recording; also at ] on LA Misplaced Pages about accents and delivery, preferring a modern standard over historical guesses. I figured the same principle might apply to say reading Shakespeare, or using 16th century instruments; it simply shouldn't be a consideration, but sometimes editors think it should be.
::* I've added the points on (1) text as images, (2) subtitles for EN content, (3) optionality of AV content
::'''VERSION 0.2'''
::Audiovisual content can also be used for illustrative purposes. Most of the guidance on images above applies to audio visual content. Importantly, audio-visual content should not be an essential part of a page, which is necessary to understand the whole. This is because not all readers will be able to download or access the content, for example because of technical limitations or relying on text to speech tools. With audio and video just as with any content, relevance is paramount; consult ] for further context. There must be a clear reason for including the content on the page.
::Additionally, consider:
::* '''Length''': inline videos or audio that is shorter will be easier for users to watch. Consider clipping long form content, and linking to the original on Commons, or elsewhere. Longer videos (eg, over 10 minutes) may be more suitable for links than inline video, unless they are highly relevant to the page's subject.
::* '''Rendition''': historical accents and historical musical performances are not required. Modern renditions of audio are acceptable. For example, there is no need to read Shakespeare with an Elizabethan pronunciation.
::* '''Musical, poetic and literary content''': aesthetic considerations are higher for these kinds of content. Where possible, the performances should be considered good by other editors. Where editors find performances are poor, content should generally not be included.
::* '''Subtitles for comprehension''': In English language videos, an English language subtitle track should always be provided for accessibility. See ] for more details.
::* '''Subtitles for translation''': where audio or video is originally in a non-English language, for example a Goethe poem, subtitles should generally be preferred over than translated audio, as this reflects the original more closely and text files are easier to correct than mistakes in audio-visual content. Where possible, songs should be subtitled. Original language versions should be made available where where possible for artistic content.
::* '''Translations of subtitles''' See ] for guidance. Note that longer subtitle sequences may need to be translated by Wikipedians rather than obtained from academic sources to avoid copyright infringement.
::* '''Embedding text''': As with images, rendered text should be avoided in video content. See ] for more information.
::* '''Public domain renditions''': if audio or video is a rendition of a public domain source, for example a work by Mozart, or a speech by Caesar, it must be possible to check the original scores or texts. An editor should be able to compare the performance with the original. Where possible, include links on media file pages so that editors can make checks.
::* '''Sourcing''': as with images, sourcing of audio-visual content needs to be copyright compliant. Sources of CC video and audio can include Youtube, Flickr and CC search tools. Care should be taken to ensure the licensing claims appear to be valid.
::* See also: ]


::] ] 23:32, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
'''Support option 1'''. i reject the premise of options 2 & 3 that the question has to do with linguistic varieties, whatever labels are attached to the conventions. Typographic style, unlike diction and grammar, is not germane to any discussion of dialect. I’m also concerned about ‘instruction creep‘: will we end up with two (or more) parallel guides, where BrE articles use single quotes primarily, AmE double; BrE spaced en-dashes, AmE unspaced em-dashes; BrE acronyms in <small>SMALL CAPS</small>, AmE acronyms in CAPS …? That way lies madness. Having said that, I would be prepared to accept option 4 as a compromise.—]]] 10:08, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
:::This appears to be related to situations such as ], where a consisting of a person reading a letter aloud was included in an article, one example of a series of such edits. It is not clear to me that we need a bunch of guidelines about the best form for this sort of application because it is not clear that it is desirable to include such videos in the first place - the cart is being put before the horse. ] (]) 23:54, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
::Hey, Odysseus. Upon what have you based your position? Do you have any sources or evidence showing that these punctuation styles are not divided along national lines? Because you would be the first to show any. As for evidence that they are, we collected some a few weeks ago. Here's a summary. It shouldn't take you more than ten seconds to get the gist: ] (]) 15:05, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
::::Yes, I certainly would like to clear up some of the misapprehensions that regretfully appeared in that discussion. It's a discussion I will deeply regret getting involved in for some time.
:::Why is the world divided into two empires? ] ] 02:09, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
::::I'll be clear about the other discussions and examples of this content for context:
::::Straw arguments are beneath you, Tony. This isn't about whether the world or the English language is divided into two empires. This is about whether leaving commas untucked is incorrect American English. According to the sources, it is. Most British sources appear to require this practice in British English writing. If you want me to stop believing that, then show me proof that all the style guides are wrong. Or, even better, show me proof that British English provides non-hypothetical advantages over American English under Misplaced Pages conditions. Until then, we have no business requiring editors to punctuate articles incorrectly. ] (]) 02:32, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
::::* ]; ] no debate and no questions occurred
:::The fact that there exists a significant minority practice (not just a few eccentrics) in all the countries mentioned, opposing the prevalent convention in each, demonstrates that punctuation style is not an essential part of their dialects. Even in comparison with orthography—itself a relatively shallow aspect of language—the national habits run much deeper: the number of Americans who write “colour“ and Brits who prefer “color” is negligible. I think the burden of proof is on those claiming that the conventional punctuation style is a characteristic of the American variety of the English language (and likewise for LQ and the British). Among the referenced guides that I could access (most of them), only one could be construed as offering any support: Garner, who uses the terms “AmE” and “BrE“. (I don’t have that book; I’d be interested to see if he defines or expands upon those abbreviations somewhere.) Several of the others characterize their recommendation as “American style”, but most simply proffer advice (although some may explain the basis therefor in introductory material, which I didn’t look for); some are just citations to support the advice given. From one or two of the first group one might infer their usage of “American” is intended to be little more than a convenient label. (Fowler/Gowers implies much the same about “logical”, if that’s any consolation.) Vorfeld finds it necessary to qualify: “if you’re in the U.S., you’ll probably place your periods and commas inside the closing quotation mark.” Wilbers quotes ''CMOS'' saying, “The British style is strongly advocated by some American language experts.” Could one say that, with a straight face, of any feature of the language proper? The crux of this is that punctuation style is not a characteristic of languages or dialects, rather an ephemeral detail.—]]] 05:34, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
::::* ]; no questions raised (I am the main editor for this page but plenty of people make edits)
::::The number of professional-quality American publications that use British punctuation is also extremely small. Even if it weren't, why would we go so far as to ''require'' a punctuation system that even ''most'' American style guides actively prohibit?
::::* ]; ] as a link after discussion with editors
::::The style guides all refer to these practices as British and American. Can you show any sources that prove that they are wrong?
::::* ]; ] after discussion with editors
::::Burden of proof? Here you go: Your turn.
::::* ]; readings included; no discussion or objection
::::If punctuation really were an unimportant detail, then you wouldn't care about banning it. Half the MoS deals with what most people would consider minor details. Those details add up and create an impression of quality and professionalism in the reader's mind. ] (]) 05:50, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
::::* ]; reading of his disputes with no objections raised
::::* ]; reading of his defence of Catholicism; posted and no objections raised
::::* ]; ]; no response yet
::::* ] and ]; early work added; an editor has asked me to check whether these are sufficiently relevant; I've agreed to do so and remove the videos if ] is not met.
::::@] I hope you can at least see that normally I try to be as collaborative as I can be. there's not much point going further into why that discussion became hard for me. However, policy is the place where we make guidelines to avoid disputes and lack of clarity.
::::What meets ] overrides any other consideration, to my mind so I have added that to the draft text. (''With audio and video just as with any content, relevance is paramount; consult ] for further context. There must be a clear reason for including the content on the page.'') ] ] 00:12, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::As regards the other articles where there was no discussion, just because there was no dissent at the moment doesn't mean there wont be in the future. What happened at the Machiavelli article could just as easily happen in the other ones
:::::I am also asking you kindly to please stop making the issues with that RfC bigger than what they are. ] (]) 00:27, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::We can take this discussion in two ways:
::::::* We can either construtively discuss the principles behind what video content should be allowable; or
::::::* We can decide that emotions are too high for it and pause it
::::::I do need this guidance, because there are divergences of opinion on some of the points, and it's important to me to be able to resolve them. But my guess is that if the three of us are just going to rehash the RFC discussion, then that would a terrible use of other people's time and energy. A break off would make sense, in my view. ] ] 00:41, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::No one's emotions are high but yours, judging by your rather relentless snipes against my character and the fact that you have so much as admitted it in the RfC. You have also stated that the RfC "needed to die" (quite strong words) when I gave you a chance to change your mind, and now you want to pause now that the discussion is nearing a close?
:::::::I do not get what you are trying to accomplish here, to be fair. ] (]) 00:47, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::It is not needed to rehash the RFC here, but I did feel that fresh eyes on this talk page should have enough context to understand what the proposal is about. ] (]) 00:48, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::Thanks, I appreciate that as a valid concern. Does the change regarding ] help, or do you feel more is needed? For context, other points raised in the RFC such as regarding the need to be able to validate translation is also included. ] ] 00:54, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::I dropped the video from ]; it seemed like excessive detail. It's already on '']'' where it's a bit more appropriate. But even there, it seems like it violates the video equivalent of ]. Same for ] and ].
:::::I also posted that the video for ] should probably just be kept on Commons; there's already a general link to the topic there.
:::::I agree it's not clear that videos of performances of works should generally be included, so I would also be hesitant about specifying anything in particular about those. Uploaded videos cover a broad variety of subjects, including scientific phenomena, buildings, and specific events. -- ] (]) 03:22, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::I would like to understand ] a bit more, especially regarding accessibility in particular, as this is certainly an overriding concern. What makes the text subtitle files inaccessible and not regarded as text? ] ] 09:09, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::Subtitles are, of course, text. They are less accessible than the text in an article because some readers will have technical or logistical difficulty watching video and thus reading subtitles or listening to audio narration. For readers that ''do'' watch a video (which presumably has an animation or something which illustrates the subject of the article in a way a still image cannot), it ''increases'' accessibility by allowing people who cannot hear or find it difficult to know what is being said or what sounds are happening in the video. -- ] (]) 15:37, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
:::] already says that for user-created diagrams, etc., a source for the underlying data must be included. To me, this applies straightforwardly to videos that are presenting public-domain content. A citation to the original work is kind of implied, but a reference to a specific version or even better an online copy, should suffice. YouTube videos that we're importing into Misplaced Pages as on-article videos are no different than diagrams or maps or explanatory videos uploaded by random Misplaced Pages or Commons users, assuming an appropriate copyright license. The reliability of YouTube is not really in question, any more than the reliability of any given Misplaced Pages editor is, when they are just repackaging information from a different underlying source in a more digestible way. That's different than citing a YouTube video as a reliable source for the information itself.
:::I'm not sure I have enough examples to make a guideline about video length. Ten minutes seems way too long for download on a mobile phone, and most videos I would expect to be under a minute. Perhaps there are exceptions, but I'd want to survey how videos are being used now. In the meantime, I would trim the 0.2 version down to reduce scope and reduce overlap with other pages and rephrase and retitle:
:::----
:::'''Video content (v. 0.3)'''
:::* The guidelines on this page also generally apply to videos.
:::* Many readers will not be able to play videos, because of technical limitations of their web browser, because they are seeing article content on a different web site or app, or because they are using a different medium, such as paper or text-to-speech system. Some readers cannot see or find it difficult. Videos should be used as a ''supplement'' to article material, to concisely illustrate the subject in a way that a still image or text cannot do. Videos should not replace article text, and articles should remain coherent and comprehensive when video playback is not available.
:::* Similar to ], for accessibility and file size reasons:
:::** Videos that simply show text should be replaced with text.
:::** Videos that simply show a sequence of still pictures should be replaced with an image gallery.
:::** Videos of text being read aloud should be replaced with text, or if the sound of words is being demonstrated, audio files (with the text being read in the file caption or in closed captioning).
:::** Videos of text and narration with should be converted to article text.
:::* The copyright and other guidelines on ] also apply to video samples.
:::* The policies on ] also generally apply to videos.
:::* Accessibility guidelines at ] apply.
:::----
:::-- ] (]) 03:56, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
::::] has additional suggestions; not sure if it's appropriate to link there from here. -- ] (]) 03:57, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
::::With your commentary, this makes a lot of sense. I would point out that there was a lot of heat generated over YT reliability in the aforementioned RFC, so it would be good to point that it can be used. YT is not mentioned as a source for images in the images section above; an alternative would be to add it there in the list of common sources, but that also seems odd. I know one can point to the archive discussion, but that is not generally available knowledge for anyone looking at the guidance in future. ] ] 09:14, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::I added a clarifying note at ] for YouTube; hopefully this will not be controversial. -- ] (]) 02:44, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Unfortunately that has been . It might make more sense here, because this is about video as illustration, and there is ]. Perhaps it should be parallel advice to this, eg mentioning that YT has a search facility for CC content (and there isn't anything else AFAIK). ] ] 09:10, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::I started a discussion at ]. -- ] (]) 20:21, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::Thanks - quick observation that we have lost that the guidance for illustrative audio content would also generally derive from the images guidance. The music samples page linked is wholly focused on samples from copyrighted material; there is a lot of PD / CC music material on WP, especially for classical music. Sometimes this could do with subtitling, etc, care in positioning, checks for relevance, etc. ] ] 09:36, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::OK, what are you suggesting? -- ] (]) 18:59, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::I think, where appropriate, add audio, eg "The guidelines on this page also generally apply to videos and audio files"; maybe "where appropriate, for instance non-English language audio files should include subtitles". I'm not sure there is much else. ] ] 22:56, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::And where would you find that addition to be appropriate? -- ] (]) 02:37, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::I would amend the title to "Video and Audio content"; I would amend bullet one to "The guidelines on this page also generally apply to videos and audio files". Under "Similar to MOS:TEXTASIMAGES, for accessibility and file size reasons:" I would add "where appropriate, for instance non-English language audio files should include subtitles". The accessibility guidelines could move to be bullet two, in order that audio and video advice is at the top. ] ] 08:02, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::It looks to me like hardly anything on ] applies to audio files, and it seems like the wrong place to go looking for style advice about them. -- ] (]) 22:52, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::::For example:
::::::::::::::* ]
::::::::::::::* ]
::::::::::::::* ]
::::::::::::::* ]
::::::::::::::* ]
::::::::::::::* ]
::::::::::::::* ] Uploading to commons, recording information about files, changes in editing and download size etc
::::::::::::::These seem pretty substantially helpful guidance to me, and pretty similar level of relevance as to video files. ] ] 09:10, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::Yeah, most of the material in those sections is not relevant to audio. I'd say if you feel strongly that guidance is needed for audio generally and not just music samples, we should create a new page. Editors shouldn't have to read through a whole page about images just to pick out the occasional tidbit on audio files, if they're only interested in the latter. -- ] (]) 20:32, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::I've posted the 0.3 draft for now, since that wouldn't be changed by adding an audio page somewhere else. -- ] (]) 20:46, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::Thanks for posting the v 0.3. On audio, I would think about this from a few user perspectives:
::::::::::::::::* There is currently no MOS advice at all on audio files and approaching general layout, pertinence, etc. What would the user do? Currently, MOS offers them nothing, so they must either guess or work off examples on other pages.
::::::::::::::::* If a user asks for advice, where would they be pointed? (my guess: ] as closest match.
::::::::::::::::IMO, it would be better to offer them something, even apologetically ("There is currently no detailed advice on MOS regarding use of audio files, but the basic principles of ] and some considerations at ] may be helpful.") This could be placed at a page relevant to other audio usage files, for example. ] ] 10:02, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::Feel free to propose a draft if you like. It's also possible no particular guidance is needed, if people are able to figure this stuff out using common sense and regular editorial judgement, and if disputes arise, turn to the various policy and guideline pages on topics like due weight. -- ] (]) 21:56, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:Given the small amount of material to include about this, and the redundancy that would be required with MOS:IMAGES if "MOS:VIDEOS" were its own page, and given the short nature of the audio samples MoS page, I think the most sensible approach is to merge all of this into a WP:Manual_of_Style/Images_and_multimedia page with a top MOS:MEDIA shortcut (which I'm surprised doesn't already exist as an internal disambiguation page), then MOS:IMAGES, etc., going to sections. We have too many separate MoS pages as it is, and this is an ideal merge of two of them and a proposed third. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] 😼 </span> 06:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::Sure, that's a reasonable alternate approach. I think it would work if we put the things that apply across all three at the top, and then make it clear with section headers which those interested in a specific media type should look at without having to read inapplicable guidelines. -- ] (]) 08:22, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::+1 to both of these observations. ] ] 09:04, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::Yeps. If we hammer out a videos-related section, I'll be happy to do the work (most MoS merges and the like are done by me because I kind of have a database in my head of all the rules and how they interrelate, and 19 years of observing how misinterpretations, lawyering, and other problems can be avoided by careful wording. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] 😼 </span> 14:23, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::I think what we could agree on for videos has been added. -- ] (]) 00:27, 24 December 2024 (UTC)


== misleading text in ] ==
'''Support option one''' The reasons for our choosing LQ are just as valid now as they ever have been: we don't want the quote tampered with. With TQ we don't know whether a comma or full stop belongs to the quote or not. Can we find an example where this caused a war or the failure of a mission to Mars? Can we even find any documented problem caused by this uncertainty? Maybe not but this doesn't prove that the problem isn't there. Moreover, I'd call the said uncertainty problem enough in itself. We're not robots; we can work it out; anyone can disentangle TQ. Can we? No, not always. Sometimes it's clear enough that the punctuation mark doesn't belong, sometimes you're just left guessing. I'm afraid I don't have any documented proof of others having this problem but I've found it myself. So, what's TQ got going for it? It's more æsthetic; not really, that's a matter of taste and what you're used to (it looks ugly to me); either way, though, "I (don't) like it." arguments don't count on WP (of course). Tradition? TQ was invented so that full stops and commas wouldn't get broken. What did writers do before the printing press? I assume they put punctuation marks where logic would have suggested. TQ is easier ... I don't see how. The easiest way of punctuating is to put punctuation marks where logic and common sense dictate. The further we deviate from this the more difficult and, yes, more ''illogical'' our practice gets. LQ does deviate slightly for this ideal; TQ is way off. The more exceptions to common sense you have to deal with the harder things get, surely. To be fair LQ has a few such exceptions (as mentioned above) but TQ outdoes LQ here with what appear to be exceptions to the exceptions (full stops and commas being treated differently to questions marks, exclamation marks, colons and semicolons). No, TQ is ''not'' easy. American style guides may advocate TQ (Canadians, alas, may also blindly follow suit) but WP is not bound by outside style guides nor should it be. As I see it fidelity to the quoted material still trumps adherence to a practice which ceased to make sense centuries ago. ] 05:11, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
:What American punctuation has going for it, aside from being easier to teach, learn, copy edit and use, is that it is correct American English and British punctuation is not. Common sense does not support requiring what is for a huge proportion of our editors an extremely obscure rule and ramming it down their throats because a few of us happen to prefer it. ''Yes'', Misplaced Pages is supposed to be about sources and verifiability, so ''yes'' we are bound to follow the style guides. If you can't show even one case when American punctuation failed to keep fidelity with the quoted material, ''even one'', then this boils down to a personal preference, and it's wrong to impose that on others.
:As for logic, since when is English logical? If we start inventing our own version of the language, then why keep British spelling? It's illogical to have an extra u that doesn't do anything or to spell "centre" as if it were pronounced "sen-treh." But we keep doing it because it's not really British English if we don't. ] (]) 05:29, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
::I do not agree that it is easier to teach, learn, copy edit or use. The easiest system would be to put inverted commas about quoted stuff and punctuate whatever is inside and outside according to sense. That is simply teach what the punctuation marks are and let the kid figure it out ... logically. There'd be hardly any teaching even required (if any at all). Sadly neither system is perfectly like this so exceptions also have to be taught. The more exceptions you have, the more you have to teach and/or learn. LQ, having far fewer exceptions, therefore needs less teaching, is easier to learn & use than TQ. This is exactly the problem Mr Yagoda (mentioned below) is facing: his students are naturally tending toward the more logical solution and he's thus left fighting an uphill battle to impose TQ on the class.
::Yes, we should follow the style guide: this is our style guide (WP:MOS). Any publication is free to put together their own style guide (or not to) and we're doing that. Outside inspiration is all well and good but it's not the be all and end all. LQ was chosen over TQ for fidelity to the source. You, Darkfrog, insist that TQ doesn't fail. Well, I haven't found a book, a website, newspaper article, etc. with a story about a punctuation tragedy, no, but I have seem umpteen instances where I wouldn't know whether the full stop or comma belonged to the quote or not. That in itself is a failure in my view.
::As for keeping the illogical British spelling, yeah, but why keep the only-slightly-more-logical-and-not-always-at-that American spelling? ] 06:51, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
:::In my work instructing people, it's easier to explain the rule about periods and commas (inside all the time) than the rule about question marks. It does indeed require teaching.
:::To know whether a word was followed by a period or comma in the original text, I must look at the original text. This is true of both the British and American systems.
:::So I show you some evidence that American punctuation is required in American English, in the form of style guides, but you do no find it sufficiently convincing. Okay, fine, it's going to take more than that. But you show me absolutely no evidence contradicting my position and you're surprised that I'm not convinced either? If people around here like logic so much, then this shouldn't be giving anyone any trouble. The people in this conversation keep going back to, "What are you going to believe, what the sources say or what I tell you?" Well... the sources, actually.
:::Yes, and we'd be free to require everyone to capitalize the fifth letter of every word if we want to or to use Asian-style name order (hey, public figures are usually better known by their last names anyway), but that would be silly. It wouldn't really be English. It would be a made-up, amateur-hour imitation of English.
:::Why keep it? 1. Because ''not'' keeping it is imposing the personal preferences of a few contributors to this page on the entire encyclopedia. Like I said, lots of things about English are illogical, but spelling "psychology" with a P is right and leaving the P out is wrong. 2. Because using correct punctuation creates a sense of confidence and respectability in the reader's mind, even if they can't identify every little rule and twist. Using incorrect punctuation on purpose makes us look stupid and amateurish, and because it is ''so'' easy to fix, it also makes us look lazy. ] (]) 07:08, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
::::If you have to explain different rules for full stops and commas than those for question marks, your system ''harder''.
::::The truly logical approach would be to include all punctuation marks that belong to the quote within the inverted commas. Yes, the "British" style may fail here (omitting full stops in mid-sentence quotes) but at least it doesn't insert them when they weren't there. With LQ if a quote contains a full stop or comma, it's part of the quote; with TQ you just don't know.
::::The language is illogical, sure, and we're not here to fix it but the choice of LQ isn't about fixing stuff but about conveying information clearly. ] 07:54, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::You seem to have misunderstood me. When I explain how to use periods and commas with quotation marks, the students go, "Okay, I get it now." When I explain the use with question marks, they go "Huuuuuuh?" In this way, the "tuck-them-in-all-the-time" appears to be easier to teach and understand.
:::::Yes, but it ''doesn't'' contain the comma or period. In the sentence "She said there were 'things to be discussed'." I don't know if there was a period after "discussed" or not because British rules require that it be omitted even if it was there. In the sentence "She said there were 'things to be discussed.'" I don't know if there was a period after "discussed" because American rules require that it be included. I have to look at the original no matter what. ] (]) 14:36, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


The text on keyboard entry of dashes in {{slink|Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style|Dashes}} is misleading. The text {{tqq|or on a Windows keyboard }} implies a technique specific to windows when in fact it is valid for any OS. -- ] (]) 15:20, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
'''Support option 1''' Misplaced Pages is an international web-based encyclopedia. Compromise is part of cooperation. Misplaced Pages is taken most seriously when it is consistent. If multiple styles of quotations are allowed, Misplaced Pages looks sloppy. I don't know of any style guides which recommend using multiple styles of quotations in the same publication.
:True. What it should say: "on a Windows keyboard enter them manually as {{key press|Alt|0}} {{key press|1|5|0|chain=}} (on the numeric keypad) for en dash, and {{key press|Alt|0}} {{key press|1|5|1|chain=}} for em dash." -- ] (]) 16:02, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
::Wrong on two counts:
::# No. It should not say anything at all, per ].
::# And even if it does, those ]s are only valid for ] and related. They don't work if the user has a different default code page installed.
::Delete it completely. --] (]) 17:23, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
::::I doubt that NOTHOWTO is meant to apply to the MOS. It's surely helpful for editors and hence should stay, reworded if needed. ] (]) 08:26, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::Gaewon is correct: NOTHOWTO applies to articles only. MOS is littered with how-to stuff, as is should where the ratio {{nobreak|<code>(editor confusion and time saved)/(])</code>}} seems sufficiently high. However, if this starts getting into weeds of code pages and such, it may be best to relegate the whole thing to ], with a pointer to that from MOS. ]] 20:28, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::So why not simply recommend {{tl|mdash}}, {{tl|ndash}} and {{tl|snd}} rather than advise keyboard callisthenics? --] (]) 20:36, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::Yes, I have always advocated symbolic representations (templates such as you list, or html escapes such as &amp;mdash;) of the various dashes (and in some cases, even hyphens), rather than having them appear literally in the wikisource, so that editors can see at a glance that the right character is present. But even though ], I can't seem to get people on board with this. ]] 20:49, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::I am happy typing the dashes on my Apple keyboards but also happy with recommending the templates rather than giving keyboard-specific advice. What I would like to avoid is warring bands of gnomes going around changing unicode dashes to templated dashes and vice versa. —] (]) 21:31, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Edit conflict: yes, different route to the same answer. --] (]) 20:38, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
:::JMF's policy understanding {{em|is}} mistaken above. ] only applies to article content (and other reader-facing content, like portals and the front page features). If it applied to internal documentation, then we would have to delete the entire "Help:" namespace and about 95% what is in "Misplaced Pages:" namespace. However, the technical point JMF raised is entirely correct, and we should not be telling editors to use keyboard codes that will do the wrong thing (or nothing) if they don't happen to be using the "right" code page. To {{tq|1=simply recommend {{tl|mdash}}, {{tl|ndash}} and {{tl|snd}}}} is the sensible approach. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] 😼 </span> 06:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Let's just direct people to ]. --] &#x1f339; (]) 23:00, 23 December 2024 (UTC)


== Is there a MOS guidance that applies to changing between common terms based on the name of the Wiki article? ==
I was educated using American style typesetters' quotations, punctuation inside the quotes, except when it isn't, like with question marks and exclamation points. I always found it illogical. In LQ the punctuation from the original source is kept inside the quote marks so you can tell what the original source said. Calling that logical quotation makes perfect sense for me.


Do we have a guideline for dealing with different name, common names for the same thing (] vs ])? The target article, ], has used both names (changed in 2009 and 2022). Sources use both terms but I think the shorted "I4" is used more often in sources. I presume we would follow something like the MOS:ENGVAR where if there is no source preference we go with what the editors used first. Recently an editor, {{u|Kumboloi}}, made a number of good faith changes in linking articles from "inline-four" to "straight-four" to align external article text with the target article name. Is there a guide on this? How should this be handled? ] (]) 14:55, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
We are not asking anyone to write incorrectly. We are asking people to write following a manual of style. Just like if I wrote for a newspaper in AP style and term papers using Chicago. Neither is wrong, they are each appropriate in their place. Our MoS has specified LQ for many years and no proposals to change it have been successful. The current consensus works for me. <span style="background-color:#B7D9F9;border:solid 0px #0E5CA4;padding:0px 3px;border-radius:3px">]&nbsp;<span style="border-left:1px solid #0E5CA4;padding-left:3px">]</span></span> 05:46, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
:Actually, we're only "not asking anyone to write incorrectly" in that we are ''requiring'' them to write incorrectly. I got brought up on AN/I a couple years ago for using American punctuation in the article space. Yes, these systems are both appropriate in their place, but in a piece of writing that purports to be in American English, British punctuation is as wrong as spelling "harbor" with a U.
:Consistency is one thing, but Misplaced Pages has not pretended to be consistent with respect to national varieties of English. Rather, it has embraced this diversity through ENGVAR. So long as Misplaced Pages claims to treat all national varieties equally, it should actually do it and not require incorrect punctuation in American English articles. ] (]) 05:57, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


:It's a policy, our ], which largely doubles as our policy on article titles. Generally, for a given thing there's no reason to use a different name in the prose of any other article than one would use in the article about the thing itself, if that makes sense.<span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 14:57, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' I haven't read through this whole thread so I feel unqualified to vote. I think this should be decided at the village pump rather than here; this ''isn't even an RFC''. But if Option 4 is chosen, it must be made '''''absolutely clear''''' that editing an article solely to change one type of optional punctuation to another is inappropriate. ] ] 18:35, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
::I'm not sure where the naming convention says we should change article text in a case like this. The article in question indicates both names are common (''A straight-four engine (also referred to as an inline-four engine)''). This is also reflected in the two name changes over the years. I don't see where the naming convention says we should favor the target article name vs what the individual article sources are using. Consider a hypothetical, I'm created a Wiki article about the new "CarX". My RS source that says, "CarX uses an ''inline four engine''". Why would I not follow the source vs use the title of our straight four article? This is especially true if if the hyperlink is added later by a different editor. Also, until 2022 the title of the article was "inline". A consensus of 3 editors changed the article name. That's fine but the result is many changes to other articles. If a new consensus of 5 editors reverses the change do we flop back? I think it's less disruptive (makes articles more stable) if we avoid article text changes in cases like this. However, I am interested in knowing what guidance might apply here. ] (]) 15:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::: I'm interested in understanding this. My motivation in making the edits came down to a suspicion that there was some type of penalty incurred by linking through a redirect page, or that the redirects imposed a maintenance overhead. I hadn't read the naming convention, but if there's no real reason to reduce the number of redirected links, and recognizing that the target page could just as easily be renamed again in the future, I'll stop doing these edits. (Personally, I prefer "inline" to "straight", but I can see how the renaming would help organize the associated pages.) Thanks. ] (]) 15:56, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::My reasoning is ] stresses how we are required to name things, as we are un all editorial decisions, based on WP:V and WP:NPOV (in many cases this boils down to the result of ]). It has provisions specific to the article title and not the body, but much of it is expressing how to apply V and NPOV in deciding what to call things.
::::If we take alternative names as such—e.g. that, all else being equal, we do take ''inline four'' and ''straight four'' to be synonyms, truly referring to the same thing for our purposes—it makes very little sense to "wall off" which names are used in a particular article, as there are no clear limits on how strictly this would have to be observed. Am I allowed to use any synonymous nouns, verbs, or adjectives in my synthesis that don't happen to appear in my three best sources? On the other hand, naming according to a generalized scope is surely more coherent for a hyperlinked encyclopedia providing tertiary analysis instead of merely refactoring and reshuffling the specific language of our secondary sources.
::::Of course exceptions abound, much of the time alternative names and redirects should be freely used according to syntactical and contextual concerns—but I believe this to be correct mindset to assume by default. I don't think any given article that uses ] needs to be changed. However, in cases like these, I feel it pays dividends to use terminology consistently between pages. If readers are encountering technical or domain specific language for the first time, we create the most helpful and coherent tertiary analysis for them if we zoom out a bit. It makes no sense to prefer '']'' to '']'' just because the book we're citing prefers the former—e.g., in an article about a specific battle, or a broad conceptual article not specific to the Sasanians—our deliberately preferring ''Sassanid'' simply does not aid the reader in becoming familiar with whatever additional context they're going to go to ] for in order to better understand our other article.
::::If I wake up and find this totally incoherent, I apologize. It's hard to speak clearly about naming and reference, though it's one of my favorite things to think about. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 16:49, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::] clearly says: "Piping links solely to avoid redirects is generally a time-wasting exercise that can actually be detrimental. It is almost never helpful to replace <syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline>]</syntaxhighlight> with <syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline>]</syntaxhighlight>." So if a link already leads to the correct article, but using an alternative name that redirects, that's ''absolutely fine'' and nothing more needs to be done. I realize that you're probably not talking about piping, but about changing the link text and link target together – but that too is unnecessary if the existing link target works fine (by redirecting). ] (]) 17:12, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Kumboloi, thanks for that explanation. It reaffirms my believe that you were acting in good faith (I hope you took my revert that way as well). ] (]) 19:11, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:I think there needs to be a good reason to not use the article title in text (and they do exist), and that can be discussed on a per-case basis at the relevant article (or other) talk page.—] (]) 17:19, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::Agreed. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 17:21, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Just so long as it is realized that THERE RATHER OFTEN IS A GOOD REASON! National language preferences for one thing. Busywork drive-by changes should be strongly discouraged. ] (]) 18:48, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Goes without saying! <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 19:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::I just thought I'd drive by and agree with that. ]] 22:10, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:The answer the the OP's question is "More or less ''yes''", in the form of ]. Remesense's idea above that article titles policy and its dependent naming-conventions guidelines and essays (which actually defer to MoS on style questions) somehow dictate in-article content. They absolutely do not, or we would simply merge them. However, agreement with the page title can actually qualify as a good reason for a text change under STYLEVAR a lot of time, such as when a old page title (and our mirroring of it in the text) was a misnomer, unhelpfully ambiguous, obsolete, or obscurantist. When such problems don't apply, then having more than one way to refer to the subject is a boon to editors and readers, since it allows us to write less repetitively. But the lead should almost always agree with the title, and start with the term/name in the title and secondarily provide any noteworthy alternative(s). Some exceptions of course apply, such as when a term/name in the title is a colloquialism and used for ] purposes in the title but is not the best way to introduce the first sentence (this is especially common at biographical articles, in which we often give the full "Elizabeth" or "Robert" name of someone more commonly called "Liz" or "Bobby" and given that way in the page title). <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] 😼 </span> 03:28, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::I think they must dictate in-article content to a degree at least—it would make no sense to use a particular name in the title and initial definition (I've been assuming congruence throughout, e.g. no disambiguators considered) and then never again. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 03:36, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::That's a correlation/causation mix-up. What you're talking about is just ] (to the point of "Don't be intentionally perverse as if with a goal of confusing readers as much as possible") and a matter of ]. It's not an element of title policy or of naming conventions, which do not address article content (except a few of the worst-written NC pages have a statement or two in them about body content that needs to move out of those pages; I've been cleaning those up as I run across them). <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] 😼 </span> 14:18, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::I've been racking my brain trying to articulate exactly what I mean here, but I do not think it is <em>merely</em> correlative. Hopefully that is a useful thought inasmuch beyond just the trivial truth that the language one is exposed to affects the language they go on to use and think in terms of. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 19:32, 25 December 2024 (UTC)


== Legibility of thumbnails at default size ==
===Article by Ben Yagoda: The rise of logical punctuation===
{{Moved discussion from|Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Images#Legibility of thumbnails at default size}}
]
]
I am surprised there is no direct statement along the lines of {{xt|If possible, the selection, placement, and sizing of images should allow readers to fully decipher what they are intended to illustrate; thumbnails should be legible with the default base size of 220px without requiring readers to expand them.}} It seems like much of the guidance has this as an unstated goal, but there are cases where it is slightly less intuitive that this is a principle that editors should heed. My one worry is hypothetical quibbling over what any given image is intended to illustrate—is the specific text written on a street sign important for illustrative purposes?—but I feel like that's totally explicable in each instance via editor discussion. It's clear that some appropriate images cannot be legible at thumbnail size in context, either because they are visually intricate or the placement context simply won't allow it, but it seems helpful to state that editors should make an attempt when it is possible. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 16:02, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:{{ping|Remsense}} Can you give an example? ] (]) 16:39, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::Clicked around until I found one: at ], it's not really possible for me to discern the field of figures as men sitting at desks rather than just noise. This image should be displayed at a slightly larger size, and maybe cropped a bit.
::Another class of examples is insignia and coats of arms, where arguably key details that would be legible in the original contexts are illegible at thumbnail sizes in infoboxes, especially in cases where there are especially elaborate versions that editors sometimes opt for out of a misplaced sense of completeness (I guess). <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 17:03, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::]
:::]
:::They're everywhere. ] (]) 21:23, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::::That is something that gives me pause: this seems like a common-sense guideline to me, but either it's so obvious that it shouldn't be a guideline (?) or it's not nearly as obvious to others. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 21:48, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::I've always found it odd that we don't have a minimum size recommendation. Can't tell you how many times I see collages or galleries that have teeny mini images that lack accessibility for all. <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 03:49, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::It's a perfectly reasonable thing to do to print articles out (or otherwise have them in a format where the thumbnails are all you get), also. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 03:51, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::I do worry my criterion above is too loosey-goosey to be a good guideline; I don't think there's a problem with speaking in terms of minimum size as such, maybe it's better getting the intended point across? <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 03:55, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::Definitely better getting the intended point across. If we try to impose a numeric min. size, people are going to argue about it until the end of fargin' time, based on the behavior of their preferred devices and browsers, and so on. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] 😼 </span> 03:17, 23 December 2024 (UTC); rev'd. 13:39, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::What do you think about the potential phrasing first presented—i.e. {{xt|if at all possible, what images are being used to illustrate should be fully legible when scaled according to the default base size}} <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 03:23, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::Lots of unnecessary words. {{xt|When possible, images with text should be legible when ...}} I'm not sure what "according to" the default base size means. Is it really the {{em|default}} base size? Are more than handful of editors reading this going to understand what "base size" means? I thinking there must be a clearer way to get the point across, but the goal seems right. (Speaking of "getting the intended point across": ironically, my previous message had an extraneous word, "than", in it – in a position that reversed or at least badly confused my meaning, so I've removed it.) <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] 😼 </span> 13:39, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::I'm not sure how to phrase it. It's not just images with text either, it's all images that are added but cannot actually be deciphered without expansion. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 04:40, 24 December 2024 (UTC)


== Commas around incorporated businesses' names ==
Even those who promote it agree that it's illogical and hard for writers to grasp, and that it's fading from practice in web-based content, especially user-generated content. See by an American, who discusses the "British" alternative, noting ''Indeed, since at least the 1960s a common designation for that style has been "logical punctuation."'' He observes that ''If it seems hard or even impossible to defend the American way on the merits, that's probably because it emerged from aesthetic, not logical, considerations.'' He claims that we are "simply accustomed to the style" while admitting that it is fading out and hard to get his students to use. It will be a lot easier to WP to achieve a consistent and professional look with the more "logical" approach that suits how American writers not subject to this odd prescription naturally write. ] (]) 17:19, 27 June 2013 (UTC)


from looking at ], there isn't any guidance on how to deal with names with '']''. multiple articles do any of the following, either with no comma, a comma only before and a comma around the word.
He writes
{{quote | I spotlight the Web not because it brings out any special proclivities but because it displays in a clear light the way we write now. The punctuation-outside trend jibes with my experience in the classroom, where, for the past several years, my students have found it irresistible, even after innumerable sardonic remarks from me that we are in Delaware, not Liverpool.}}


# {{xt|Mumumu Inc. is a company ...}}
] (]) 17:21, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
# {{xt|Mumumu, Inc. is a company ...}}
# {{xt|Mumumu, Inc., is a company ...}}


I am aware that the commaless and comma style may coexist (sometimes in the same article!), however the second and third styles should likely be decided upon. ] (]) 01:09, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
::1. Thanks for being the first person on your side of this issue to offer a source.
*Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy, oh boy, oh boy! I ''cannot wait'' for someone to say that ''Inc.'' is an "appositive", and therefore the commas have to come in pairs. ]] 01:20, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
::2. This source doesn't say that the practice isn't divided along national lines. Actually, he does. He calls American style predominant in the U.S. and refers to the British system by name as "the British style."
*:Is that the cool way of saying that you don't think it is one? ] (]) 06:46, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
::3. The first paragraph says flat-out that American punctuation is used by almost all reputable style guides and professional publications, and that British/logical comes into play in "copy-editor-free zones." Misplaced Pages might not ''be'' combed by professional copy editors, but the whole point of the MoS is that we want it to be just as high-quality as documents that are.
*There is a lengthy discussion at ]. --] &#x1F98C; (]) 09:42, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
::4. Mr. Yagoda isn't endorsing the British system. He says that he docks his students' grades when they use it.
*:@] thank you so much for your link and oh dear it really is long. ] (]) 13:56, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
::5. What this guy is saying is that he thinks that American punctuation will die out. He isn't saying that it has already died out. As per WP:NOT, Misplaced Pages is not a crystal ball. We're not here to instruct users on how to work with a version of English that doesn't exist yet; we're here to instruct them on how to use the English that exists right now. If American punctuation does die out in five or twenty or a hundred years, we can always change the MoS then.
::6. Here are a dozen-plus American style guides that show that American punctuation is required in American English. They are in an easy-to-read list:
::Conclusion: According to Mr. Yagoda, yes, this issue is divided along national lines. Yes, American punctuation is used in high-quality American English writing, which is what we're trying to produce in our AmE Wikiarticles. So yes, we should lift the ban on American punctuation. ] (]) 17:32, 27 June 2013 (UTC)


== An editing policy question ==
*In answer to Dicklyon's linking to a Slate.com opinion piece, I highlight that the author of the article, Ben Yagoda, does not cite a single mainstream American style guide (or any other publication) as authority for his position on the growing usage of so-called "logical quotation." And with delicious irony, I also note that the author refers to LQ as the "British style." Once again, we have a very selective reading of a source, in this case an opinion piece no less, to support the proposition that "logical quotation" is in general use in the United States (it's not), and that no one calls it "British style" (when the article itself does so). As for the weight to be attributed to Yagoda's article, he is simply expressing his opinion as to the purported logical superiority of his preferred style of punctuation, in much the same manner as Dicklyon and other LQ proponents have done in this and other discussions. If any form of "prescriptivism" has failed, it's the "failed prescriptivism" of WP:LQ which ''requires'' that we use LQ in American and Canadian English articles, which results in numerous, repeated and ongoing discussions on this very talk page initiated by North American editors who ask "WTF?" Not surprisingly, it's one of the most routinely ignored MOS provisions because it's not the natural or common usage among American and Canadian editors. The fact that some Misplaced Pages editors like the British majority practice better than the predominant American and Canadian practice -- "it's more logical" -- does not mean that it is a mainstream punctuation practice in the United States or Canada. That's the fundamental problem: LQ proponents argue their opinions; proponents of using the predominant American style argue that virtually all mainstream style guides continue to support it, and most mainstream publications, editors and writers continue to use it. But, hey, let's not allow reality to get in the way of a strongly expressed opinion. ] (]) 18:12, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
::My point was that even though he prescribes the American system, and calls the other British, he admits that the other is more logical, is called "logical punctuation", and represents how even Americans actually write, because it is more logical. Yes, he's trying to maintain or establish a national divide where none need be and none tends to be if you let people write logically. He is doing what you and frog are doing, but admitting that he's losing because it's not how logical people write. ] (]) 18:22, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
:::That point has come across very well, Dicklyon. You've shown us one source written by one guy acting alone who explains why he thinks that British style is better, and does so well. But he does not claim that using British style is correct in American English or that professional-quality publications should switch to British at this time. By reading that he docks his students papers, we can infer that he believes the opposite. So there isn't anything in this article that could outweigh the requirements outlined in style guides that we've provided. In fact, most of it is consistent with them.
:::I also notice that Yagoda doens't list even one case of British style performing better (or worse) than American style under real-world conditions. He doesn't claim that it improves reading comprehension or inspires more confidence in the reader.
:::Got any more? I much prefer analyzing sources to the other kind of discussion. ] (]) 18:34, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
::::My point is that even though he prefers it and prescribes it as American, he laments that Americans don't write this way, because it's illogical. We got beyond that problem in WP, so let's not go back there. ] (]) 00:13, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::Yes, I got that part: he likes British style more and he explains why. But the bottom line is that that is one man's opinion. Why is his opinion more important than mine? More relevantly, what makes his opinion more important than the dictates of every American style guide and the practice of almost every quality American publication?
:::::As for "problem," this article doesn't establish that there is one. Mr. Yagoda doesn't list even one case of confusion, ambiguity or frustration attributable to American English. He just explains why he likes the British way more.
:::::WP:LQ, however, is causing problems for Misplaced Pages now. The use of incorrect punctuation makes us look stupid, and the MoS regulars are continually bogged down with challenges.
:::::Let's look at this in more immediate terms: If you wanted to say "This punctuation practice is not really American" or "British English is superior to American English" or "American English causes problems that British English does not" in a Misplaced Pages article, you would not be able to use Mr. Yagoda's piece as a source because it does not say any of those things. You could say, "According to Slate contributor Ben Yagoda, British style is more logical than American style." However, if you wanted to say "This punctuation practice is American and that one is British" you would have your pick of reputable sources, including this one. ] (]) 01:37, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::(partial edit conflict). No. He says that LP (LQ) is predominately used '''on the web'''. Misplaced Pages is on the web. The conclusion is obvious. Given that, I can't really support option 4. That provides a clear justification for option 1.
::::::And I disagree that LQ is causing problems. I would need a citation to believe that. — ] ] 01:44, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::::The examples that he gives of "on the web" are bulletin boards and email, the places where people say rofl and don't bother to capitalize things. That's not what Misplaced Pages is trying to be. Professional writing in American English, online or off, still uses American punctuation. In fine, the things that Yagoda describes as "on the web" are best described as casual conversation, which Misplaced Pages is not.
:::::::As for problems, the incorrect punctuation in American English articles is itself a problem, but I'd understand that you guys don't agree with me about that. I cite this conversation as an example of another problem. WP:LQ has been challenged ''three times'' in the past forty days, by three separate people.
:::::::Another problem? Users getting brought up on AN/I for using American punctuation in the article space. That happened to me a few years ago. ] (]) 02:27, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


When I read Wiki policy and guidance pages, I sometimes find ''shall'' used instead of ''will'' to indicate what must be done ''—'' for example, in the ] article, we find: "The more signs that are present, the more likely sockpuppetry is occurring, though no accusations '''shall''' be made unless, beyond a reasonable doubt, one is really certain."
You know what? Sources speak louder than words: '''Places on the web that use American punctuation:'''
:# ''The New York Times''
:# ''The Washington Post''
:# And for something that's not also paper-based, ''Yahoo News''
:# Here's a BNF livejournal account as an example of informal web writing in which American punctuation is used consistently.
And that took me about five minutes to find.
Yes, Misplaced Pages is on the web, but is the mission of the MoS to make it look like emails and bulletin boards or to make it look like a professional, reliable source of information? We're better off copying these guys. 02:40, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


Granted that ''shall'' is often used this way in government and judicial documents, I think it sounds somewhat at odds with the more user-friendly ambience Misplaced Pages has tried to create for editors. Besides, ''shall'' is not consistently applied throughout the policy and guidance pages ''—'' for example, in the same ] article, we find: ''"''The closing administrator '''will''' be required to follow the consensus, even if they personally disagree.''"''
:I am revising the heading of this subsection from <b>Four options</b> to <b>Four options regarding MOS:LQ</b>, in harmony with ], point 13 (Section headings). Please see .
:—] (]) 01:10, 29 June 2013 (UTC)


— For the above reasons, wouldn't it be in Misplaced Pages's best interests to avoid using the conversationally archaic ''shall'' in these articles and replace it with ''will?''? I doubt that this would make editors with wrongdoing on their minds less likely to behave as desired.
== Lead of seven paragraphs ==


— But if the decision is made to continue "shalling," then for the sake of consistency couldn't a search-and-replace be done throughout the policy and guidance articles to replace ''will'' with ''shall'' where the word needs to indicate what must be done? ] (]) 16:53, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
I need a quick third opinion as to whether the current lead of ] (seen ) is MOS-compliant. It consists of seven paragraphs of one or two sentences apiece. Is this acceptable under ] and ]? It seems odd to me, but perhaps I'm being too rigid in my reading of these guidelines. Thanks, -- ] (]) 03:15, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
:I would absolutely condense those graphs to no more than four. ] <sup>(]&#124;])</sup> 03:21, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
::Is that only your opinion or do you believe that article's Introduction is not MOS-compliant? Would bulletpointing help? ] (]) 03:24, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
::: It is my opinion that the lead is not currently MoS compliant and I would not advise the use of bulletpointing for the same reason. ] <sup>(]&#124;])</sup> 03:29, 23 June 2013 (UTC)


:It's fine, really. This is one of those things the MOS exists to obliquely neutralize—i.e. this is a pretty conjectural position and not worth getting into all-in or all-out discussions over. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 17:16, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
== Brief informative headings ==
::“Obliquely neutralize” — there’s a new one for me! 😅
::I just thought it would help lighten the bureaucratic tone of these articles to dial down the legalese, as many editors feel increasingly on edge with all the rules and regulations they discover the more they wade into Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 17:31, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Genuinely, I apologize that I can't talk normal when the situation would benefit from it. Take that how you will. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 17:32, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Or shall. ]] 17:39, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::😂 ] (]) 07:44, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::{{small|Am losing the ] here, mate. ] (]) 12:34, 31 December 2024 (UTC)}}


:::Just be aware that you’ve entered the purview of a global encyclopedia, and that means you will encounter forms of English that aren’t necessarily common locally to wherever you live. ] (]) 17:57, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
This is a reminder for the attention of all editors of ] or of any other talk page. Brief informative headings (and subheadings, and so forth) help all of us to use the table of contents (of a talk page, either active or archived) and to follow changes to watchlisted pages. A simple glance at a heading in a table of contents or in a watchlist can often be enough to help an editor to decide whether to investigate a discussion further. <br>
::::Is this one of those ] situations where we should stick to a limited number of ]s on a sliding scale (must > should > may)? --] &#x1F98C; (]) 18:42, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
A heading does not need to contain every detail describing a discussion, but should contain enough information to convey, as narrowly as it can within practical limits, the scope of the discussion. Attitudinal words (whether they are positive or neutral or negative) are generally wasted words when they are in a heading. Topical words help to identify the topic of a discussion. <br>
::::@], Although I’m aware of different styles of English in different parts of the world, the ''shall/will'' issue I’ve raised here is more about how Misplaced Pages wants to show officially expected actions in particular situations.
Subheadings can often be more challenging than main headings, but concise informativeness can be achieved when a subheading repeats briefly some or all of the main heading and then adds information specific to the section. A subheading "Arbitrary break" appearing in a watchlist (or in a link on a talk page) contains very little useful information. <br>
::::Not like , “Today I shall go to the beach” … but like, “Administrators shall hold discussions on the matter for one week before reaching a decision.” ] (]) 12:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
Concise informativeness is a skill to be developed by practice. (If any professional instructor is reading this, then that person can incorporate the teaching of this skill into the report-writing part of the teaching program. The benefits of that skill can be applied to e-mail subject lines and to advertising and marketing.) <br>
:::::Nevertheless, ‘shall’ is still reasonably common usage in formal, official or legal written texts, in the UK, in a way that I don’t think you can say for the US (but willing to be corrected…), and is not considered particularly user-unfriendly. Your observation to the contrary above is therefore pitched from the perspective of a particular Engvar, which was my original point. ] (]) 15:16, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
Here are links to archived discussions.
::::::@], you're probably right about "how official" ''shall'' sounds to UK and US readers of official documents. And frankly, that word is still used from time to time in official documents in the US, even though much more rarely these days''.'' Even so, here's a thought: if ''will'' would work equally well as ''shall'' in Misplaced Pages policy and guidance documents, why not use it consistently here so as to make "official stuff" sound a bit less bureaucratic but at the same time affirming of expected behavior?
*] (March 2011)
::::::Though I'm American, I doubt that any of our UK cousins across the pond would feel affronted if Misplaced Pages consciously adopted ''will'' in its policy and guidelines. Wouldn't it simply be one more example of Misplaced Pages's intentions of providing as welcoming and user-friendly environment as possible in which to work, while in no way demeaning other varieties of writing?
*] (March 2010)
::::::Alternatively, to avoid the whole ''shall/will'' issue, there are still other ways wording could be done. For example, instead of "Administrators shall hold discussions...,” we could say, "Administrators are to hold discussions ....” ] (]) 11:04, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
Here is an external link to additional information.
::::::::More rules about how rules should be written could be one step forward, two steps back. ]] 12:28, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
*
:::::::Onbiously, you're free to edit how you want, but as a general rule, surely it isn't WP's object, nor that of the MoS, to try and enforce general language preferences on our editors? ] (]) 11:41, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
Brief informative headings in ] can help me (or anyone else) to maintain ]. Brief informative headings can help all of us to use that page and ] efficiently. I understand that, when there is an issue raised about a style guideline, editors can be very absorbed in trying to settle it and unaware of ]. However, I request help from all editors so that those pages can be maintained and used with minimal time being spent in studying future past discussions. Then, when a discussion will have been archived, it will be more accessible and more easily documented. Past discussions are in the past, but henceforth we can all spend time in forming brief informative headings. <br>
—] (]) 00:09, 24 June 2013 (UTC) and 22:47, 25 June 2013 (UTC) :::::::: You state the onbious. ]] 12:28, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::Well, @], I think it’s time for me to gracefully bow out of the discussion now. My only Intent in making my suggestion was far from an attempt to ''enforce,'' though I see how it might be interpreted that way''.''
::::::::Instead, I was trying to make a case for a slight change in wording that seemed to me could help Misplaced Pages accomplish its very positive goal of creating an open, light, friendly ambience — just as seniors helping in the Teahouse and elsewhere are asked to do with those who ask questions. I know that as some editors get involved with Misplaced Pages, they come to feel weighed down by many rules and regulations and even become fearful they might make a slip and face serious consequences.
::::::::It was this I hoped my suggestion might help prevent in the long run, with the flip-side benefit of editor retention. ] (]) 12:37, 31 December 2024 (UTC)


==Discussion at ] (redux) ==
== Blatant POV-Pushing by Users Beyond my Ken, MarnetteD and Binksternet ==
]&nbsp;You are invited to join the discussion at ]. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 21:13, 29 December 2024 (UTC)<!-- ] -->


==Discussion on ] bio leads==
] is making a lot of changes to various article's white space which conflicts with MOS. During one discussion about his behaviour on AN:I last May, and without any discussion, he (making the false claim that this would be a "clarification") to support his position and was immediately .
See ]. ] (]) 19:07, 1 January 2025 (UTC)


== Usage of historical place names in infoboxes ==
He made a second attempt which went unnoticed until this week. I reverted it, but was reverted again my MarnetteD (telling the blatant lie that it would be uncontested; MarnetteD is of the dispute) and again by Binksternet (making unsupported sockpuppet claims).


Some feedback ] would be nice. Thanks --] (]) 19:34, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
I will no longer interact with them, but I'm curious to see whether they will get away with their disruptive editing. --] (]) 13:49, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 12:28, 9 January 2025

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Why does the Manual of Style recommend straight (keyboard-style) instead of curly (typographic) quotation marks and apostrophes (i.e., the characters " and ', instead of “, ”, ‘, and ’)‍? Users may only know how to type in straight quotes (such as " and ') when searching for text within a page or when editing. Not all Web browsers find curly quotes when users type straight quotes in search strings. Why does the Manual of Style recommend logical quotation? This system is preferred because Misplaced Pages, as an international and electronic encyclopedia, has specific needs better addressed by logical quotation than by the other styles, despite the tendency of externally published style guides to recommend the latter. These include the distinct typesetters' style (often called American, though not limited to the US), and the various British/Commonwealth styles, which are superficially similar to logical quotation but have some characteristics of typesetters' style. Logical quotation is more in keeping with the principle of minimal change to quotations, and is less prone to misquotation, ambiguity, and the introduction of errors in subsequent editing, than the alternatives. Logical quotation was adopted in 2005, and has been the subject of perennial debate that has not changed this consensus. Why does the Manual of Style differentiate the hyphen (-), en dash (–), em dash (—), and minus sign (−)? Appropriate use of hyphens and dashes is as much a part of literate, easy-to-read writing as are correct spelling and capitalization. The "Insert" editing tools directly below the Misplaced Pages editing window provide immediate access to all these characters. Why does the Manual of Style recommend apostrophe+s for singular possessive of names ending in s? Most modern style guides treat names ending with s just like other singular nouns when forming the possessive. The few that do not propose mutually contradictory alternatives. Numerous discussions have led to the current MoS guidance (see discussions of 2004, 2005, 2005, 2006, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2008, 2008, 2009, 2009, 2009, 2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2017, 2017 (the RfC establishing the present consensus), 2018, 2018, 2019, 2021, 2022). Why doesn't the Manual of Style always follow specialized practice? Although Misplaced Pages contains some highly technical content, it is written for a general audience. While specialized publications in a field, such as academic journals, are excellent sources for facts, they are not always the best sources for or examples of how to present those facts to non-experts. When adopting style recommendations from external sources, the Manual of Style incorporates a substantial number of practices from technical standards and field-specific academic style guides; however, Misplaced Pages defaults to preferring general-audience sources on style, especially when a specialized preference may conflict with most readers' expectations, and when different disciplines use conflicting styles.
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Section size for Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (157 sections)
Section name Byte
count		 Section
total
(Top) 2,657 2,657
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Vocabulary 98 22,675
Contractions 476 476
Gender-neutral language 1,692 1,692
Contested vocabulary 256 256
Instructional and presumptuous language 2,578 2,578
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Gender identity 1,647 1,647
Non-English terms 301 8,016
Terms without common usage in English 1,547 1,547
Terms with common usage in English 400 400
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Geographical items 3,376 3,376
Media files 69 2,791
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Avoid using images to display text 884 884
Captions 526 1,344
Formatting of captions 818 818
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Links 10 1,750
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Miscellaneous 18 13,328
Keep markup simple 1,219 1,219
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Color coding 1,245 1,245
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How to add an invisible comment 1,263 1,263
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See also 1,199 4,870
Guidance 1,242 1,242
Tools 300 300
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Guidelines within the Manual of Style 310 1,606
Names 1,296 1,296
Notes 24 24
References 28 28
Further reading 1,206 1,206
Total 226,980 226,980
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    Style discussions elsewhere

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    Add a link to new discussions at top of list and indicate what kind of discussion it is (move request, RfC, open discussion, deletion discussion, etc.). Follow the links to participate, if interested. Move to Concluded when decided, and summarize conclusion. Please keep this section at the top of the page.

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    Pretty stale but not "concluded":

    Capitalization-specific:

    This section is an excerpt from Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters § Current.

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    Other discussions:

    Pretty stale but not "concluded":

    Concluded

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    2024
    2023
    2022
    2021

    Retain or remove citation indicators in quoted text?

    Is it acceptable to remove citation indicators – ¹ or (Gorgon, 1993) – that appear within quoted text (this would be to improve readability). I'm not referring to citing quoted material, but to citation marks within quoted material. Thanks! Tsavage (talk) 12:18, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

    Yes. References to footnotes are usually silently omitted, as they are not a part of the text flow anyway. Gawaon (talk) 11:52, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
    Thanks. Is this addressed in the MoS? I couldn't find mention MOS:QUOTE. This would seem a common situation when citing academic sources. Tsavage (talk) 15:58, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
    I added it while doing some other cleanup. It's entirely normal to silently (not with "...") remove inline citations from quoted material, since WP isn't providing the source info, and to the reader it will be just be frustrating (they'll go looking for "Smith 1997" or whatever, and not find it). If our article is also citing the same source, then linking the quoted citation to our citation might be useful, but shouldn't be seen as manadatory. A general principle of quotation (inline or block) is to only quote what is pertinent, what is contextually necessary for our purposes; otherwise we're wandering into over-quotation which is both poor writing and apt to be a copyright issue unless the source is public-domain.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:55, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
    Thanks. Your addition is helpful and doesn't seem to overcomplicate things. I realized the primary aim with quoted material is not to forensically reproduce it from the source (as I'd kinda been doing), it's to accurately represent the meaning as it appears in the full context of the source. Which makes minor silent adjustments for readability fine, provided meaning is strictly preserved – comprehension and judgement are of course required. Tsavage (talk) 17:06, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

    Stale advice: slashes have been line-breaks since 2005 (Unicode 4.1.0)

    § Slashes (strokes) says "On the other hand, if two long words are connected by an unspaced slash, an {{wbr}} added after the slash will allow a linebreak at that point."

    I've recently tweaked a couple of articles doing this, and realized that my browser will allow breaks after slashes without any special markup. This is part of the current Unicode line-break algorithm. Looking into the archives, it was added to support breaking URLs between Unicode 4.0.1 (2004-03-30) and Unicode 4.1.0 (2005-08-29).

    It's been 19 years. Do we still need this advice? I ask because some parts of WP are aggressively backward-compatible: {{wbr}} still expands to <wbr/>&#8203; since apparently IE7 and earlier don't support <wbr/>. But I seriously doubt that WP is consistently backward-compatible; I'm sure there are lots of more recent edits where the editors didn't see a problem with long /-separated lists on their browsers and didn't do anything tricky. 97.102.205.224 (talk) 17:20, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

    Look at Good articles (or former Good articles) from years ago they read like they do now and it just shows that the Manual of Style will stay exactly the same as it has been for 18 years unfortunately. This0k (talk) 02:45, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

    Input needed on disagreement over where the lifespan goes in relation to a baronetcy or a peerage title

    Muéro and I disagree on where the lifespan goes in relation to a name that includes a baronetcy or a peerage title. It started with Muéro removing honorifics from the lead of several articles on peers (many of which I have on my watchlist), following the recently changed guidelines at WP:POSTNOM. This is not controversial, but in their edits, he also removed a comma unrelated to the honorifics, but called for by WP:COMMA ("Don't let other punctuation distract you from the need for a comma, especially when the comma collides with a bracket or parenthesis").

    I pointed this out to them, and they acknowledged the error, but then they instead started to leave another comma in place, a comma that was required by the now obsolete guideline. I can't find the guideline in the history of this article, but it went something like this:

    For people with a baronetcy or a peerage, the post-nominals should be separated from each other, and from the name, by a comma, for consistency's sake. (my underscore)

    That is the comma Muéro left in place, and the result was this: 

    John Doe, 1st Baron Doe, (1 January 1801 – 31 December 1881), was a Whig politician ...

    I pointed out to Muéro that this is also wrong, and that punctuation rarely – if ever – precedes a parenthetical expression. But they are adamant that it should be there.

    So here we are. I'd like input from the project, and I'm sure Muéro would like that too.

    The discussion originated on Muéro's talk page, but I'm copying it here, and closing it there, while notifying them.

    The discussion on Muéro's talk page

    Hello.

    Thank you for your contributions. Regarding your edit of Frederick Curzon, 7th Earl Howe, and similar edits removing postnoms per the new guidelines, please don't remove the comma after the parenthetical birth–death expression. It's supposed to be there per WP:COMMA: "Don't let other punctuation distract you from the need for a comma, especially when the comma collides with a bracket or parenthesis".

    Thank you. HandsomeFella (talk) 15:50, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

    Ah, good catch. I can't wait for the day when nobility titles are also excluded entirely, which would make that comma unnecessary anyway. Muéro 15:58, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
    Hello again.
    Thank you for your understanding. Re: your latest edits, you're now leaving a comma in place that shouldn't be there.
    Nathaniel Charles Jacob Rothschild, 4th Baron Rothschild, (29 April 1936 – 26 February 2024),
                                  ^                     ^                                   ^
                                  A                     B                                   C
    Commas A and C are paired, comma B should be removed along with the postnoms that followed it. Commas rarely precede parentheses.
    Cheers.
    HandsomeFella (talk) 17:52, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
    I don't think that makes sense. If someone doesn't have a nobility/royalty title, there is no comma before or after the life span. When adding the nobility/royalty title, the pair of commas should go before and after the nobility/royalty title. Why, when adding the nobility/royalty title, would the life span get looped into the comma pair? Muéro 17:56, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

    Step by step

    I think it makes perfect sense. You don't put a parenthetical expression after punctuation, do you? Let me take this step by step. Normally, the first sentence would be something like this: 

    John Doe was a Whig politician ...

    Now let's add that he was a peer: 

    John Doe, 1st Baron Doe, was a Whig politician ...
        ^              ^
        A              B

    The commas A and B are paired, i.e. the "parenthetical" title is set off at both ends (unless when there is other punctuation, like at the end of sentence). Let's see what happens without the closing (second) comma: 

    John Doe, 1st Baron Doe was a Whig politician ...

    If the commas aren't paired, the sentence reads "1st Baron Doe was a Whig politician", and "John Doe" is left dangling at the start of the sentence.

    Now, let's add the life span. Where do we add it? Before punctuation. 

    John Doe, 1st Baron Doe (1 January 1801 – 31 December 1881), was a Whig politician ...
        ^                                                  ^
        A                                                  B

    The commas A and B are still paired. See?

    HandsomeFella (talk) 23:04, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

    The nobility title is a nonessential appositive. Commas go before and after a nonessential appositive. I'm assuming you don't consider the lifespan, which is never set off by commas in a Misplaced Pages article, to be a part of the same nonessential appositive somehow, right? If it's not included in the nobility title nonessential appositive, then it goes outside the commas. Muéro 00:04, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
    No, it doesn't. Sure, the lifespan parenthetical isn't part of the appositive, but neither are the commas, which is demonstrated by the fact that at, if the name and title occurred at the end of a sentence, there wouldn't be a comma; there would be a period/full stop:
    ... Joseph Smith bequeathed the manor to his nephew, John Doe, 1st Baron Doe (1801–1881).
    You wouldn't place the parenthetical outside the sentence like this, would you?
    ... Joseph Smith bequeathed the manor to his nephew, John Doe, 1st Baron Doe. (1801–1881)
    Ergo: normal rules apply, which is that punctuation doesn't precede a parenthetical. (The exception being when there is a complete sentence inside the parentheses, in which case punctuation occurs both at the end of the preceding sentence, i.e. before the parenthetical, and before the closing parenthetical, as shown here.)
    Commas go before and after an appositive (unless there is other punctuation), but that does not necessarily mean immediately after.
    HandsomeFella (talk) 10:29, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
    "Punctuation doesn't precede a parenthetical" is not a rule at all. It's just something you made up.
    If the parenthetical were being applied to the nobility title, then the parenthetical should go within the commas that set off the nobility title. But the parenthetical is being applied to the actual name of the person, which came before the nonessential appositive that is set off by commas.
    If you dislike the placement of the nobility title between the name and the lifespan parenthetical, I wouldn't disagree. I'd happily remove the nobility title entirely from the lead sentence (or heck, the whole article). Or put the lifespan parenthetical first, and then the nobility title. But wherever the nobility appositive is being stuck, it gets set off by commas. That's the rule. Muéro 13:38, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
    This one is simple: a comma is never placed immediately before other punctuation. Instead it's placed after them or, in case or semicolons and periods, omitted altogether. While MOS:COMMA doesn't say so quite explicitly (supposedly treating it as one of these common sense things that everybody already knows?), it gives an example of how to do it correctly: "Burke and Wills, fed by locals (on beans, fish, and ngardu), survived for a few months." (With the second parenthetical comma after the closing bracket.) So, by analogy, "John Doe, 1st Baron Doe (1 January 1801 – 31 December 1881), was a Whig politician" is indeed correct. Gawaon (talk) 08:58, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
    Concur with the OP and with Gawaon on the typographical point; we don't use a comma right before a round-bracketed parenthetical, nor does much of anyone else in the world. One might make an argument that "logically", in the way a computer program would approach logic, there should or could be one there, and this is the direction Muéro has been going, but human language does not operate on such a basis, being a matter of convention combined with expediency, not a matter of a JSON-like syntax in which a comma that really should not be needed to parse the material must be present anyway or the operation will fail.

    That said, we do have several interrelating issues in play in this titles and post-noms sector that are worth cataloguing and considering in some detail:

    1. Something like "Xerxes Youill Zounds, Grand Poobah of Elbonia–Brobdingnag (3 May 1571 – 24 July 1644), was ..." is always indicating the life-span dates. If there is a need to specify the duration of a peerage, including a change in titles, that should be done in plain English in the article body, and is not going to be lead-sentence or even lead-section material. It's body material, like "Upon the death of his father, Zounds became 3rd poobah of Elbonia on 12 December 1629. He was elevated to 1st grand poobah of Elbonia–Brobdingnag on 20 June 1639 by High King Korki IX of Kerblachistan. Zounds was also the bishop of Lilliput from ca. 1630 to 14 February 1633, when he was defrocked by the archbishop of Elbonia."
    2. As an anti-classist myself, I still have to observe/concede that "don't include any titles or post-noms because they are classist" is not a viable position. WP is not a socio-political activism tool, and when any such title or honor (whether earned or hereditary or otherwise) is pertinent to a notable article subject, it should be covered, more prominently the more important it is within the context of their notability. (See below for an idea toward suppressing lead inclusion when not related to notability at all but a late-coming add-on to the pile of someone's life aachievements.)
    3. There's a been a very long-standing de facto consensus to always include peerage titles and important post-nominals (but not academic or professional titles or post nominals like "Dr" or "PhD", or guild/union stuff like "ASC", "PGA") in the lead sentence. Virtually every applicable article has been written this way.
    4. A recent-ish RfC (I seem to have lost the link to it – help me out?) with probably much too low a turnout upended part of this, and now has us remove the post-nominals from the lead sentence. This has not sat well, and actually introduces some writing problems that the RfC participants did not anticipate. For example, WP does not, except in an article on the subject being abbreviated, introduce an acronym/initialism unless it is going to be re-used later in the same article. But if our bio subject's investiture as a Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath is covered in the body only, the point at which this is done has no need to a "KCB" appearing at that point, since "KCB" is used as a post-nominal not otherwise and would not be re-used later in the article; the result is that the "KCB" that applies to this person has no logical place to go in the article any longer, since it was actually only pertinent in the lead sentence, attached to the person's name. We could do something very awkward like state that this knighthood entitles/entitled this person to use "Sir" or "Dame" and the post-nominal "KCB", but this sort of blather would have to be repeated throughout many thousands of articles, and was already very concisely conveyed by the original lead sentence without having to spell it out and micro-WP:COATRACK the bio article with detailia about how a particular order's nomenclatural rules operate. Simply showing rather than telling was better.

      So, this really should be re-RfCed, at a higher-profile venue like WP:VPPOL so we are certain that the community at large really wants to impose this lead rule change and its problems all in the name of shaving a few characters off the lead sentence. "The postnoms will be in the infobox anyway" isn't the (or an) answer, since not all bios have infoboxes, and there is staunch resistance to adding them in many cases. A potential compromise might be to not include postnoms in lead sentence but in an infobox when one is present and has a parameter for it.

    5. Even without revisiting that with a better RfC, the present wording at MOS:POSTNOM is daft: "post-nominal letters may be included in the main body of the article, but not in the lead sentence of the article". This has already lead to dispute about whether it means post-noms are banned from the entire lead or only the literal lead sentence, because it only addresses the lead sentence and the post-lead-section article body. The correct answer (if you look at the RfC discussion and the alleged consensus arising from it) is that this should instead read something like "post-nominal letters may be included, but not in the lead sentence of the article"; there was no consenus to ban them from the entire lead section. However, this runs into the problem above: Because post-nominal letters are used directly with full names, and generally only upon first introduction, there effectively is no practical place for them, in the lead section or in the article body, other than the lead sentence (except arguably in an infobox if it's there and has a place for this information).
    6. Next, there's a misapprehension here (evidenced in the beginning of this thread) that this anti-postnom RfC result somehow also means to remove peerage and nobility titles from the lead. It does not. They are a different category of thing and were not addressed in that RfC. It is possible that a consensus might be reached to remove peerage titles when they are not pertinent to the subject's notability (e.g. that would have been the case with Christopher Guest had he remained an actor/director/producer only and not taken a seat in the House of Lords). There are also many life baronetcies created late in the life of the recipients and to little public awareness; a case can be made to exclude them from the lead sentence and probably from the entire lead section. But this is something for a consensus discussion on an article-by-article basis, or for a new RfC if we wanted a categoric rule of some kind about it.
    7. A side issue is that some parties from the nobility and peerage wikiprojects have, by WP:FAITACCOMPLI behavior, programmatically usurped the |name= parameter of {{infobox person}} and its offshoots, abusing it to hold the peerage title, when that really belongs in |postnom= since it is in fact post-nominal (it's just not a post-nominal abbreviation). See Margaret Thatcher for the typical absurd result. Because this has been done to thousands and thousands of articles and involves yet another "wikiproject rebellion" against the norms of the entire rest of the project, I suspect this is probably best addressed with another WP:VPPOL RfC so there can be no doubt about the community consensus level of the result (which will obviously be to stop having our infobox blatantly lie to our readers that Margaret Thatcher's name is "The Baroness Thatcher". For the Thatcher case, the obvious solution is: |name=Margaret Hilda Thatcher|honorific_suffix=Baroness Thatcher<br />{{Post-nominals|country=GBR|size=100%|LG|OM|DStJ|PC|FRS|HonFRSC}} , and this is what agrees with the lead of the article. (Note lack of "The" before "Baroness".)

      These infoboxes are also failing MOS:HONORIFIC by including honorific salutation phrases like "The Right Honorourable" that are not part of the name in any sense, but used when writing a letter to such a person or when introducing them as speaker, and so on; that sort of information does not belong in a bio article (much less thousands of them robotically) but in an article on forms-of-address etiquette and probably again in the article on the title (baronet or whatever the case may be).

    There are probably other issues to address, but this is a lot already.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:42, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

    Any objections to extending MOS:TIES to all nations and regions?

    Currently MOS:TIES qualifies itself to English-speaking nations. However, in an increasingly multicultural world with English emerging as the lingua franca, at minimum in the Western world, why qualify this part of the MoS like that, ESPECIALLY when it also impacts on MOS:UNIT? For example, the European Union has 24 official languages, including English, and multilingualism is one of its founding principles.

    Would it not make sense to extend MOS:TIES to nations (and regions) irrespective of whether they traditionally speak English or not? Because I can see how saying to someone that embraces multilingualism and values Europe's rich linguistic diversity wishing to contribute to an article on a topic with strong ties to their nation or region in the EU, where English is an official language, that in this case that tie doesn’t count (and someone else gets to decide) might be perceived as ... well ... rude and arrogant, which isn't just unnecessary but also unproductive. Would the article not benefit from including anyone with a strong tie to it?

    I must note I would prefer if there was an established international variant, but I also find it practical not to have to waste time and effort trying to work out whether in a given article its meter or metre, organise or organize, or SI first and then imperial, or imperial first and then SI. Because getting it wrong just causes unnecessary consternation, especially if the article is inhabited by one or more "Shelobs". Elrondil (talk) 06:41, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

    I'm not in favor of this idea. TIES is an exceptional case that should be used only when it's very clear; the main rule is RETAIN.
    In practice I think this proposal comes down to "don't use American English in articles about Europe". I don't agree with that. --Trovatore (talk) 06:52, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
    @Trovatore: The proposal doesn’t suggest it no longer needs to be clear, nor that that main rule is no longer retain. It simply proposes that MORE voices are heard.
    As for the “don’t use American English in Europe” bit ... that would then only happen if most voices then want that. The solution surely isn’t “but I don’t like that, so let’s exclude them from the set of voices allowed to speak”. Fear not, they may choose American, who knows. Elrondil (talk) 06:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Also not in favor for the reasons cited by Trovatore. Doremo (talk) 07:16, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
    I do object to this.
    Moreover, from what I understand it's a perennial suggestion, so I recommend perusing the last major flare-up of it from June, wherein I happen to embark on a journey from the exact wrong position all the way to the right one, filling your heart with hope for a better future as you follow my progress. Remsense ‥ 论 07:23, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
    If it keeps coming up, perhaps there is something there.
    However, you do highlight its more complex than I originally thought, so back to the drawing board 🤔. Elrondil (talk) 06:24, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Not a chance. The purpose of MOS:TIES is entirely, only, solely about English-language dialects that exist at a more or less national level and in a formal register suitable for encyclopedia writing. Under no circumstances would we accept an English pidgin/creole or some vaguely identifiable informal habits of English-as-a-second-language users in some country or region as a "variety of English" to accept for encyclopedia writing. If you encounter "Franglais", "Spanglish", "Deutchlish", etc., in any of our articles it should be normalized on the spot to whichever form of standardized English suits the subject best if there are strong MOS:TIES, or to the form that the article already most closely matches (British, American, Canadian, or some other dialect of a country with majority or official and large minority English usage in a formal register). Another way of looking at this: There is no strong tie between Finland and any form of English. Even the "Well, it at least shouldn't be American, but British, because the UK is part of Europe and the US is not" sort of argument fails, because there's more than one national dialect of English in Europe (Irish, for now, and probably Scottish if they have another independence referendum). If there's not a particular encyclopedia-appropriate variety/dialect of English in widespread use in a country, then that country by definition has no strong tie to any such particular variety.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:22, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    @SMcCandlish: Thank you for stating very clearly and firmly that the purpose of MOS:TIES is entirely, only, solely about English-language dialects, because THAT means my primary concern of how it relates to MOS:UNIT is a non-issue!
    For the record, I did not, and still don’t, propose that “Franglais” and so on become accepted English variants. Because that would be insane, pointless and not useful. Elrondil (talk) 06:46, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    If this is something to do with promotion of crore and lakh in articles that pertain to India, there's already a big thread about that at WT:MOSNUM (again), and last I looked the consensus wasn't really changing: they're permissible as secondary units, but always need to be converted because they don't mean anything to anyone outside India and parts of its immediate neighbors (and of course among first-gen Indic diaspora). Maybe the tide has shifted in that discussion; I last looked at it about a week ago.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:50, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    No. I wasn’t aware of that thread. Elrondil (talk) 06:52, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    The thread to which you refer is “RfC Indian numbering conventions”? Elrondil (talk) 06:59, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    I don’t think there is any real overlap with the “RfC Indian numbering conventions” thread.
    I also think MOS:TIES is a dog’s breakfast, but happy to leave it alone at this time.
    Are there any objections then to apply the direction from SMcCandlish that the purpose of MOS:TIES is entirely, only, solely about English-language dialects to MOS:UNITS and decouple "respect the principle of 'strong national ties'" from MOS:TIES? For example, change it to "respect the underlying principle of strong national ties as also used in MOS:TIES but in a different context”, and then also qualify the following with only?
    • In non-scientific articles with strong ties to the United States only, the …
    • In non-scientific articles with strong ties to the United Kingdom only, the …
    • In all other articles, the …
    Elrondil (talk) 08:34, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Well, you're been so vague about why you are asking these things, what rationale you could have for making up a new rule or changing any existing one, without any reference to an ongoing and important on-site problem, that all one has been left with is guesswork based on encounters with extant or recent discussions that seem like they could be pertinent. "Are there any objections"?: Yes., I can think of a number:
    1. There is no clear rationale for what you're proposing, much less a consensus to do it. Substantive changes to policies and guidelines (WP:P&G) need consensus or they will not be accepted (unless they, rarely, hit upon something that needed to adjusted and no one else noticed until now, which isn't the case here).
    2. There are strong rationales against it, most obviously:
      A. Your implicit notion that units of measure have no connection to dialect (or "variety" as WP likes to say) is not correct.
      B. Even if it were, it'd be immaterial. The next implicit idea in your proposal (quite central to it really) is that if P&G page X reiterates a general principle from another, Y, and cites the latter for the explanation, such that X applies that principle to X's circumstances because they are reasonably analogous to Y's, that this somehow creates a bureaucratic rules-chain dependency in which every aspect of the context of the cited origin of the principle in Y must also be applicable to the citing circumstances of X. Nothing on Misplaced Pages works that way at all. Cf. WP:WIKILAWYER: it's a mistake to try to interpret our P&G as essentially a legal system (or as something like a procedural programming language, or a chain of dependencies in building software from source code; more than one analogy works).
      C. Because of point B, and because of the guideline's current "where applicable" wording (which is there for a reason and meaningful), your first rewrite idea, of tacking on a bunch of "respect the underlying principle of strong national ties as also used in MOS:TIES but in a different context" verbiage it entirely superfluous. The two versions convey the same meaning, because it is already understood that the principle (not the detail-by-detail contextual specifics) of TIES is being applied at UNITS. This is the way our entire P&G system operates. It wouldn't really be possible for it to be any other way. If UNITS was literally just restating TIES, down to the specifics of exactly what TIES covers, then UNITS would be redundant (in this regard) with TIES, and its wording about this issue would've been deleted long ago and replaced with a simple cross-reference to TIES without further comment. The kind of exemplary and contextual more-than-crossreferencing done at UNITS is entirely normal. And important: an editor looking for "what to do about units" is unlikely to instead stumble upon "what to do about national-level usage disputes", and so would be unlikely to find the TIES principles and then be certain how to contextually apply them (if at all) to units, without being basically an expert in our style guide the way some Tolkien fans learn Elvish.
      D. The next bit of suggested rewriting is to inject "only" into two line items, but this change would have a nonsensical and undesirable result in two ways: It would make those items applicable under no circumstances to anywhere but the US and the UK, respectively (even to former UK colonies with English- and units-usage norms virtually indistinguishable from British in an encyclopedic register); and it would necessitate (to fix that new problem) expanding that into a long list of every country with anything that WP would consider a "national variety of English" with pertinent unit-usage norms. The purpose of those two examples is as examples (not as an exhaustive list) of how to approach these matters. The examples were chosen because they settled previously recurrent disputes. So, what long-term, recurrent, serious problem can you point to that you think your changes would resolve? The examples are not there to serve as the beginning of an ever-growing rulebook to address every imaginable case with a new micro-topical line item to thump. The purpose of giving a general principle and providing some prominent examples is to obviate the need to have a pile of micro-rules. (MOS:NUM is already too detailed as it is.)
    3. The long-term stability of these guidelines is very important, because even small but meaningful/operative changes to them can affect many thousands up to potentially millions of articles, for reasons that almost always resolve to trivial and subjective peccadilloes. That cascading-wave-of-unneeded-changes problem (and all the fighting the endless trivial tweaks would generate) is never more of a danger than when a national-level and frequent usage matter is at issue (and literally millions of our articles do have measures with units in them). See also WP:MOSBLOAT: If MoS, after 20-odd years, doesn't already have a rule about something, then it needs to not have a rule about it, because it is not necessary for the project to do what it does successfully, and MoS is already way too long.
    4. Your "I also think MOS:TIES is a dog's breakfast, but happy to leave it alone at this time" approach does not bode well. Our policies and guidelines don't exist as hills to die on. The purpose of these style guidelines is (aside from the main one of producing intelligible and consistent content for our readers) dissuading style-warring behavior. Arriving with the idea that the rules are broken and that at some forthcoming time you're going to fix them is antithetical to their purpose and to the needs of the community. It largely doesn't matter what any particular line-item in MoS sets out (except when there is objectively a reader-clarity improvement offered by one option over another), only that it sets out, and long-term retains, something that addresses a recurrent dispute pattern and brings it mostly (hopefully entirely) to an end, and/or that it produces better content for our readers – even if that "something" is arbitrary or is a compromise that can't please everyone. Just as a word to the wise, MOS:ENGVAR (including TIES) is pretty much the hardest-fought consensus compromise reached in MoS's history, and is also one of the oldest and most stable, so if you think you're going to make serious changes to it, you are very mistaken. It's like going to Canada and declaring your mission is to undo the country's approach to French and English as official languages.
    This might all come off as harsh, but WP:Policy writing is hard, and the vast majority of proposals to change any P&G are off the mark. There are many devils in many details (thus the length of this), with a lot of nuanced interrelations between different rules (or advice or best practices or whatever you want to call them). Most of the real kinks were worked out long ago. Those that remain are subject to long-term dispute that hasn't produced a workable compromise. There is no such dispute about the material you want to change. And there are sometimes severe costs for making changes that are not vital to make.PS: I've tried hard to find a "yes" to put into this pile of "no", and there is one! Namely, your version is correct that the "scare quotes" around strong national ties shouldn't be there. I just went and removed them, so thanks for that. Otherwise, no element of your draft appears to be clearly an improvement. Here's the original wording: The choice of primary units depends on the circumstances, and should respect the principle of strong national ties, where applicable. Here's yours (presumably also keeping the original's first 10 words and the link): respect the underlying principle of strong national ties as also used in MOS:TIES but in a different context. Mentioning the other guideline by name is redundant with linking to it, and all our P&G pages are fairly (not entirely) consistent in, when practical, using plain English with links around pertinent terms rather than injecting page names. Mentioning it by shortcut in particular is "newbie-unfriendly" and wrongly presumes memorization of our shortcut strings. "Underlying" is a puff word and doesn't serve a concrete purpose in the sentence. (And underlying what? It has no clear downstream referent.) "As also used in" is more redundancy; if we're linking to TIES as the locus of the principle, it's already automatically understood that the principle is applied at the place we're linking to. "But in a different context" is a combination of redundancy with the implication of the link again, and quite odd wording: Why is there a "but" in this? (What it is contrasting against?) "Different" from what? Different in what way? And "context" is conceptually misused in this construction, in that the general principle at TIES is a meta-context, of all usage/style disputes pertaining to national-level English dialects, while use of units is a subset of that, a sub-context, not a conflicting/alternative context. Finally, unit usage is only sometimes a subset of the usage in a national variety of English, thus the original's "where applicable" – a key point that your version drops, despite it seeming to be central to the bee in your bonnet.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  11:54, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Introducing Scottish as an additional form of English would cause mayhem - or at least a shedload of future editing - here. We’ve already had a nationalist-driven push towards replacing ‘British’ with ‘English’ or ‘Scottish’ in bio articles, usually uncited and based purely on supposition or the subject’s birthplace. Fortunately, Scottish Independence appears to be receding as a prospect, at least in the short to medium term. MapReader (talk) 07:48, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    I don't disagree (and we had a real template at {{Use Scottish English}} in 2013, with an attempt to re-create it in 2016). Several years ago, I tried to get rid of all the "Use Foo English", and related, templates declaring "national varieties" that, in reality, are completely indistinguishable from general British English in an encyclopedic register, and could all collectively be covered by a "Use Commonwealth English" template. ENGVAR only applies to national (not subnational) varieties, and only those dialects that exist in distinct forms and with a formal register (by definition: if you can't write encyclopedia-appropriate material in a dialect, then it doesn't belong in our articles for any reason, so ENGVAR cannot be used to "protect" it from edits). But nationalistic sentiments won out in the end, and we still have all that claptrap, with ridiculous results like articles being tagged with {{Use Jamaican English}}, {{Use Singaporean English}}, etc. (Likewise we have no use of American-splitoff variants, either, like "Use Guam English", etc.) Too many editors who should know better and should think just a tiny bit harder have utterly mistaken the purpose of these as something like "national pride" flags to put on articles, in a verging-on-WP:OWN manner. These tags absolutely do not resolve to "write an article about Nigeria using colloquialisms and grammatical oddities found only in the informal speech and writing of English in Nigeria, which will be confusing to everyone else in the world". If someone tries that crap in response to such a template, rewrite the material per MOS:COMMONALITY and MOS:TONE.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  11:54, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    MOS:NOTGALLERY

    At another talk page, I was writing an explanation of why articles should not be swamped in a plethora of images, planning to cite MOS:NOTGALLERY. Fortunately for once I checked first and found that it is just an alias for WP:NOTDB, not a statement that article spaces should not be mirrors of Commons.

    Given that the majority of visitors do so on mobile phones, is there a case for an explicit policy that says that curation is essential, less is more?

    Or would it be enough to change the target of NOTGALLERY to MOS:IMAGEREL (which might need a little expansion because right now it just says Images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context, not primarily decorative. They are often an important illustrative aid to understanding. When possible, find better images and improve captions instead of simply removing poor or inappropriate ones, especially on pages with few visuals. However, not every article needs images, and too many can be distracting. At least a reference to WP:ARTICLESIZE? (which is expressed in terms of word count, not megabytes, so would also need work). 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 17:48, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

    I think IMAGEREL would be a better redirect target. I want this to point to guidance that images should be included selectively rather than overwhelming articles with images. NOTDB instead seems to be guidance that images should be relevant and accompanied by text, which is not enough to prevent big indiscriminate galleries. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:52, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
    I've had second thoughts about this one. It is probably not wise to make NOTGALLERY an exception to the general rule that WP:NOTaaaaaaaa shortcuts all redirect to WP:Misplaced Pages is not. So the better plan is to add a short sentence to the current target to say that Misplaced Pages is not a database of images or a catalogue raisonné; those are among the functions of Wikimedia Commons. Image use in Misplaced Pages articles must comply with MOS:IMAGEREL. I will do that now.
    IMAGEREL needs some work too, to make it even more explicit that to bury an article in a mass of images is sure way to ensure that nobody reads it. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 10:43, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    While some types of "galleries" should be avoided, articles on certain visual topics do benefit from many visual examples. I also do not think we should explicitly outlaw the catalogue raisonné model while allowing many other bibliographic lists. One size does not fit all, and such a change would need to be debated with the folks curating WP:NOT and those who work on visual topics. —Kusma (talk) 10:57, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    Pending further discussion, I have removed the reference to catalogue raisonné from my amendment (so that it now reads simply Misplaced Pages articles are not a repository of images: image use in Misplaced Pages articles must comply with MOS:IMAGEREL. to item 4, "Photographs or media files".
    I agree certainly that, in an article about an artist or an artistic movement, it is essential to illustrate the phases of their artistic development. That to me is clearly in keeping with IMAGEREL and wp:localconsensus can determine relevancy. But to include an image of every work in an artist's oeuvre? How is that a valid exception to NOTDB? (and likely a COPYVIO too). And why not show every putter manufactured by ACME Golf Inc? every locomotive made by ACME Rail Inc? every postage stamp (including all misprints) produced by the Austro-Hungarian empire? We have articles so swamped in pointless images that they have become essentially unusable to visitors on mobile. How does that make any sense? --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 11:34, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    I would definitely oppose including every work in an artist's oeuvre in an article on the artist, but I want to make sure we do not outlaw List of paintings by Edvard Munch, where the images are perfectly encyclopaedic and just as relevant for identification as the images in List of members of the 19th Bundestag. Tables in such long lists are often not great for small screens, but that is a separate issue from the number of images. Generally, lists are not the same as other articles in their use of images, so the rules should reflect that. —Kusma (talk) 12:25, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    I don't see a problem with that. Clearly the application of IMAGEREL should (and would) be different between a list article v a fairly broad concept article. To take your example, it would be entirely reasonable to include every image we have in the list article, provided that we use small thumbnails (upright=0.2); conversely (IMO) the bio article about Munch should be curated so that it has just one carefully chosen image to illustrate each phase of the development of his style , with maybe one or two especially notable examples that he did . Surely we don't want to replicate Commons? --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 18:23, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    Please, let's not compromise the full extent of the encyclopedia by limiting what has always been one of its main features. Images and galleries define and describe just as much as text. That many choose to "read" Misplaced Pages on tinier gadgets should not dictate the coverage and image-styling of encyclopedic content articles. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:49, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    The problem we have at the moment with some articles is what David Eppstein describes above as "big indiscriminate galleries" and rote copying of everything in Commons for no evident informative purpose, a form of visual clutter. As IMAGEREL begins, "Images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context, not primarily decorative. They are often an important illustrative aid to understanding". Without curation, the information gets buried in the woodpile.
    I am not proposing a principle that we must minimise the number of images, period. My proposal is that we provide a policy basis that editors can use to say "that point is already adequately illustrated, another image adds nothing new" or "this article had become so bogged down in images that it no longer navigable". I am talking about edge cases here, in most articles it is not an issue. But some have become swamped in an uncritical replica of Commons. This is not to enable wikilawyering, it just makes it easier to explain the rationale. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 18:23, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    As an example of the sort of burying articles in galleries that I would object to, see hexagonal prism, where (at least in its current version) four of its six sections are entirely image galleries (in some cases hidden in collapsed templates, with much of their content peripheral to the main article topic).
    We do need wording that distinguishes this case from List of paintings by Edvard Munch, where the galleries are entirely appropriate, though. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:29, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    But as far as I can see, the List of paintings by Edvard Munch (and similar lists by artists) already complies with IMAGEREL, because the use of images in that article is proportionate and entirely relevant to that context. Conversely, to put all those paintings in the Munch bio article as a giant gallery would not be proportionate (IMO).
    So to focus this discussion, can anyone suggest another sentence we can use to amplify the point made in the opening sentence of IMAGEREL? ("Images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context, not primarily decorative. They are often an important illustrative aid to understanding".) How about

    Consequently, each image in an article should have a clear and unique illustrative purpose: for guidance, see less is more.

    AFAICS, that responds to and respects both the Munch examples above. (FWIW, very few if any of the visual arts articles suffer from this swamping problem. The issue affects high profile articles like Swastika.) 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 11:29, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    It is entirely enough that we have the MOS:IMAGEREL shortcut. A proposal to retarget WP:NOTGALLERY to that would almost certainly fail, because it's part of a very long-standing set of policy (not guideline) WP:NOTFOO shortcuts to sections of WP:NOT, and such a change would both confuse editors today and render archived discussions of policy misleading. "Ain't broke; don't fix it."  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    Audio video guidance

    Hi there, I'm noting a lack of guidance for Audio video content, I've mentioned this at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Images. It seems people just edit MOS rather than run through large discussions, but I'm reluctant to start plunging in before getting some help. Here is what i think is needed:

    • Something explaining that the guidance at Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Images applies to Audio-video content in most cases, eg regarding relevance, image quality, textual information, offensive images, placement, size, location, availability. Nearly all of the page is relevant, in fact.
    • The download advice might need to be different. Do videos or audio need a warning that they are large files? This is not assumed, it seems.

    There is a case for some separate AV guidance, regarding:

    • Length: should inline videos be shorter where possible? Does this apply to audio clips?
    • Language: if audio or video is original language, should subtitled content be preferred rather than recording originals? Should songs be subtitled where possible? What are the requirements for validating translations (what are the relevant WP policies on translation of original source material that apply?)
    • Rendition: historical accents and historical musical performances might be very rare. Should we say that modern standards are fine, in the absence of authentic reconstructions?
    • Public domain renditions: if audio or video is a rendition of a public domain source, for example a work by Mozart, or a speech by Caesar, what are the requirements for source validation (these should reference WP's general guidelines, but these are mostly focused on secondary sources).

    Jim Killock (talk) 20:25, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

    • Elsewhere, someone asked whether an RfC would be needed to add guidance on this topic. I think not -- while discussion will be needed on details, I can't see anyone objecting to clarifying that multimedia beyond everyday images should follow similar guidelines to those for image. The question is where to say that. We don't want to duplicate guidance on contextual significance etc., because that creates two things that need to be kept in sync. Probably the best thing is to expand MOS/Images to explicitly cover other multimedia. See BTW Misplaced Pages:Manual_of_Style/Music_samples, which has a contextual significance section. EEng 20:39, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
      Thanks very much (and yes that was me!) I agree that MOS:Images would be best, especially to get this started.
      The contextual significance contains much about in-copyright works. That is in general very helpful. In-copyright video samples feels like something rather complex that might need an RFC, and might be best parked until there is a little more in place. Jim Killock (talk) 20:49, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
      @EEng Would it be helpful if I draft up something on Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Images and ask for feedback? Jim Killock (talk) 21:03, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
      I suggest you wait a while so that the experienced editors gathered here can lend their thoughts. After that, you might take the conversation back to Talk:MOS/Images, but since that page has 1/5 watchers of this one, and you've already put a pointer there to this thread here, it might be better to continue here as you begin to draft. There's no hurry to this, so the slower you take it, and the greater the extent to which others can get their thoughts in, the smoother it will go. (I'm afraid I'm really tied up IRL so the time I myslf can contribute is limited.) EEng 21:24, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
      Happy to wait. I made a stab at below, but I can wait for further thoughts / feedback here. What I've provided relates to historical source content, as most of the AV I've been dealing with falls into this category; I have guessed at some other considerations but it is currently narrower than it should be. Jim Killock (talk) 21:44, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

    Audiovisual content can also be used for illustrative purposes. Most of the guidance on images above applies to audio visual content. Additionally, consider:

    • Length: inline videos or audio that is shorter will be easier for users to watch. Consider clipping long form content, and linking to the original on Commons, or elsewhere. Longer videos (eg, over 10 minutes) may be more suitable for links than inline video, unless they are highly relevant to the page's subject.
    • Rendition: historical accents and historical musical performances of content may be very rare. Modern renditions are fine, where authentic reconstructions are not available, and may be preferred, where there is uncertainty about the original performances.
    • Musical, poetic and literary content: aesthetic considerations are higher for these kinds of content. Where possible, the performances should be considered good by other editors. Where editors find performances are poor, content should generally not be included.
    • Language: where audio or video is in the original language, subtitles should generally be preferred rather than translated versions, as this reflects the original more closely and text files are easier to correct than mistakes in audio-visual content. Where possible, songs should be subtitled. Original language versions should be made available where where possible for artistic content.
    • Translations of subtitles should be verifiable, but as with other Misplaced Pages content, competent editors can create them. While academic translations are preferred, where subtitle translations are longer than 10-20 words, use of academic translations is likely to constitute copyright infringement. Here, a Wikipedian's translation should ideally be verifiable against an academic translation. (See Non-English sources for further guidance.)
    • Public domain renditions: if audio or video is a rendition of a public domain source, for example a work by Mozart, or a speech by Caesar, the original sources must be valid. The performance should be comparable and follow the original. Where possible, include links on media file pages so that editors can make checks.
    • Sourcing: as with images, sourcing of audio-visual content needs to be copyright compliant. Sources of CC video and audio can include Youtube, Flickr and CC search tools. Care should be taken to ensure the licensing claims appear to be valid.
    • See also: Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Music samples

    Jim Killock (talk) 21:50, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

    The "Language" point is a bit unclear to me. Is it asking for subtitles to be in English or the original language? If the phrase "rather than translated versions" is referring to the spoken or written material, that seems to contradict the phrase "where audio or video is in the original language". Which is also a weird way to say it because the "original language" could be English. Given that this is English Misplaced Pages, an English version should be provided whether or not there is a non-English version.
    Subtitles should be provided for all videos with an audio track, to make them accessible for readers who cannot hear or find it difficult. There are additional guidelines at MOS:ANIMATION.
    Not sure the "Sourcing" point needs to be made, as this is explained in detail for images generally.
    The "Length" point should probably link to the Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Music samples and point out the copyright issue when displaying here under fair use. It should say "video" not "videos" to be grammatical.
    I would drop the "Translations of subtitles" point and just link to WP:NONENG for guidance on translations.
    The "Public domain renditions" point does not make any sense to me, and I would just drop it.
    I'm not sure whether the "Rendition" point needs to be made, but if it does, it's confusing. I think it's supposed to be recommending that historically accurate renditions of older works are preferred, if available. Maybe that's true, maybe it isn't, depending on what the purpose of inclusion in the article is. Might be better just to leave this point off; I don't see any similar guidance for audio samples of music. Page editors can decide which samples are best out of those available.
    Another point probably worth making is that a video should be considered an optional part of an article. In other words, any content vital to reader understanding should be included in the text and not be omitted on the assumption that reader will watch the video. Many readers will not be able to view video due to technical limitations, such as using a web browser that is not configured with a video player, or reading an article in another medium such as an app, paper printout, or text-to-speech system (including those who cannot see or find it difficult to read text). There is more specific guidance against putting text in images at MOS:TEXTASIMAGES.
    It's fine for a video to re-explain something that's already explained in the text if having a moving image clarifies substantially, but it seems wasteful for embedded videos to effectively repeat or rephrase the text.
    -- Beland (talk) 22:49, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
    Thanks very much!
    • Regarding language, this was meant to be about non-English content, think Bach or Mozart in German or Latin; or Goethe's poetry.
    • On Sourcing, the section on images does not include YT, which is significant for CC video.
    • On translation, the situation for subtitles is a bit different, as usually you cannot use academic in-copyright translations, so this mention is retained.
    • On public domain renditions, this was the subject of a long and unclear discussion recently. Does that help? Take a file such as File:Queen Elizabeth I's Reprimand of an Insolent Polish Ambassador..webm. There is some need for verification, even tho it is not being used as a citation? I've edited it for clarity.
    • On style of renditions, this has come up a few times in discussion, including at the link above, where a user claimed only a Catholic priest could do a Latin audio recording; also at a parallel discussion on LA Misplaced Pages about accents and delivery, preferring a modern standard over historical guesses. I figured the same principle might apply to say reading Shakespeare, or using 16th century instruments; it simply shouldn't be a consideration, but sometimes editors think it should be.
    • I've added the points on (1) text as images, (2) subtitles for EN content, (3) optionality of AV content
    VERSION 0.2
    Audiovisual content can also be used for illustrative purposes. Most of the guidance on images above applies to audio visual content. Importantly, audio-visual content should not be an essential part of a page, which is necessary to understand the whole. This is because not all readers will be able to download or access the content, for example because of technical limitations or relying on text to speech tools. With audio and video just as with any content, relevance is paramount; consult WP:DUE for further context. There must be a clear reason for including the content on the page.
    Additionally, consider:
    • Length: inline videos or audio that is shorter will be easier for users to watch. Consider clipping long form content, and linking to the original on Commons, or elsewhere. Longer videos (eg, over 10 minutes) may be more suitable for links than inline video, unless they are highly relevant to the page's subject.
    • Rendition: historical accents and historical musical performances are not required. Modern renditions of audio are acceptable. For example, there is no need to read Shakespeare with an Elizabethan pronunciation.
    • Musical, poetic and literary content: aesthetic considerations are higher for these kinds of content. Where possible, the performances should be considered good by other editors. Where editors find performances are poor, content should generally not be included.
    • Subtitles for comprehension: In English language videos, an English language subtitle track should always be provided for accessibility. See MOS:ANIMATION for more details.
    • Subtitles for translation: where audio or video is originally in a non-English language, for example a Goethe poem, subtitles should generally be preferred over than translated audio, as this reflects the original more closely and text files are easier to correct than mistakes in audio-visual content. Where possible, songs should be subtitled. Original language versions should be made available where where possible for artistic content.
    • Translations of subtitles See Non-English sources for guidance. Note that longer subtitle sequences may need to be translated by Wikipedians rather than obtained from academic sources to avoid copyright infringement.
    • Embedding text: As with images, rendered text should be avoided in video content. See MOS:TEXTASIMAGES for more information.
    • Public domain renditions: if audio or video is a rendition of a public domain source, for example a work by Mozart, or a speech by Caesar, it must be possible to check the original scores or texts. An editor should be able to compare the performance with the original. Where possible, include links on media file pages so that editors can make checks.
    • Sourcing: as with images, sourcing of audio-visual content needs to be copyright compliant. Sources of CC video and audio can include Youtube, Flickr and CC search tools. Care should be taken to ensure the licensing claims appear to be valid.
    • See also: Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Music samples
    Jim Killock (talk) 23:32, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
    This appears to be related to situations such as Talk:Niccolò_Machiavelli#RFC_on_video_inclusion, where a video consisting of a person reading a letter aloud was included in an article, one example of a series of such edits. It is not clear to me that we need a bunch of guidelines about the best form for this sort of application because it is not clear that it is desirable to include such videos in the first place - the cart is being put before the horse. MrOllie (talk) 23:54, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
    Yes, I certainly would like to clear up some of the misapprehensions that regretfully appeared in that discussion. It's a discussion I will deeply regret getting involved in for some time.
    I'll be clear about the other discussions and examples of this content for context:
    @MrOllie I hope you can at least see that normally I try to be as collaborative as I can be. there's not much point going further into why that discussion became hard for me. However, policy is the place where we make guidelines to avoid disputes and lack of clarity.
    What meets WP:DUE overrides any other consideration, to my mind so I have added that to the draft text. (With audio and video just as with any content, relevance is paramount; consult WP:DUE for further context. There must be a clear reason for including the content on the page.) Jim Killock (talk) 00:12, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    As regards the other articles where there was no discussion, just because there was no dissent at the moment doesn't mean there wont be in the future. What happened at the Machiavelli article could just as easily happen in the other ones
    I am also asking you kindly to please stop making the issues with that RfC bigger than what they are. Plasticwonder (talk) 00:27, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    We can take this discussion in two ways:
    • We can either construtively discuss the principles behind what video content should be allowable; or
    • We can decide that emotions are too high for it and pause it
    I do need this guidance, because there are divergences of opinion on some of the points, and it's important to me to be able to resolve them. But my guess is that if the three of us are just going to rehash the RFC discussion, then that would a terrible use of other people's time and energy. A break off would make sense, in my view. Jim Killock (talk) 00:41, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    No one's emotions are high but yours, judging by your rather relentless snipes against my character and the fact that you have so much as admitted it in the RfC. You have also stated that the RfC "needed to die" (quite strong words) when I gave you a chance to change your mind, and now you want to pause now that the discussion is nearing a close?
    I do not get what you are trying to accomplish here, to be fair. Plasticwonder (talk) 00:47, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    It is not needed to rehash the RFC here, but I did feel that fresh eyes on this talk page should have enough context to understand what the proposal is about. MrOllie (talk) 00:48, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    Thanks, I appreciate that as a valid concern. Does the change regarding WP:DUE help, or do you feel more is needed? For context, other points raised in the RFC such as regarding the need to be able to validate translation is also included. Jim Killock (talk) 00:54, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    I dropped the video from Henry VIII; it seemed like excessive detail. It's already on Defence of the Seven Sacraments where it's a bit more appropriate. But even there, it seems like it violates the video equivalent of MOS:TEXTASIMAGES. Same for Martin Luther and On the Bondage of the Will.
    I also posted that the video for Elizabeth I should probably just be kept on Commons; there's already a general link to the topic there.
    I agree it's not clear that videos of performances of works should generally be included, so I would also be hesitant about specifying anything in particular about those. Uploaded videos cover a broad variety of subjects, including scientific phenomena, buildings, and specific events. -- Beland (talk) 03:22, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    I would like to understand MOS:TEXTASIMAGES a bit more, especially regarding accessibility in particular, as this is certainly an overriding concern. What makes the text subtitle files inaccessible and not regarded as text? Jim Killock (talk) 09:09, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    Subtitles are, of course, text. They are less accessible than the text in an article because some readers will have technical or logistical difficulty watching video and thus reading subtitles or listening to audio narration. For readers that do watch a video (which presumably has an animation or something which illustrates the subject of the article in a way a still image cannot), it increases accessibility by allowing people who cannot hear or find it difficult to know what is being said or what sounds are happening in the video. -- Beland (talk) 15:37, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    Misplaced Pages:Image use policy already says that for user-created diagrams, etc., a source for the underlying data must be included. To me, this applies straightforwardly to videos that are presenting public-domain content. A citation to the original work is kind of implied, but a reference to a specific version or even better an online copy, should suffice. YouTube videos that we're importing into Misplaced Pages as on-article videos are no different than diagrams or maps or explanatory videos uploaded by random Misplaced Pages or Commons users, assuming an appropriate copyright license. The reliability of YouTube is not really in question, any more than the reliability of any given Misplaced Pages editor is, when they are just repackaging information from a different underlying source in a more digestible way. That's different than citing a YouTube video as a reliable source for the information itself.
    I'm not sure I have enough examples to make a guideline about video length. Ten minutes seems way too long for download on a mobile phone, and most videos I would expect to be under a minute. Perhaps there are exceptions, but I'd want to survey how videos are being used now. In the meantime, I would trim the 0.2 version down to reduce scope and reduce overlap with other pages and rephrase and retitle:
    ----
    Video content (v. 0.3)
    • The guidelines on this page also generally apply to videos.
    • Many readers will not be able to play videos, because of technical limitations of their web browser, because they are seeing article content on a different web site or app, or because they are using a different medium, such as paper or text-to-speech system. Some readers cannot see or find it difficult. Videos should be used as a supplement to article material, to concisely illustrate the subject in a way that a still image or text cannot do. Videos should not replace article text, and articles should remain coherent and comprehensive when video playback is not available.
    • Similar to MOS:TEXTASIMAGES, for accessibility and file size reasons:
      • Videos that simply show text should be replaced with text.
      • Videos that simply show a sequence of still pictures should be replaced with an image gallery.
      • Videos of text being read aloud should be replaced with text, or if the sound of words is being demonstrated, audio files (with the text being read in the file caption or in closed captioning).
      • Videos of text and narration with should be converted to article text.
    • The copyright and other guidelines on Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Music samples also apply to video samples.
    • The policies on Misplaced Pages:Image use policy also generally apply to videos.
    • Accessibility guidelines at MOS:ANIMATION apply.
    ----
    -- Beland (talk) 03:56, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    Misplaced Pages:Videos has additional suggestions; not sure if it's appropriate to link there from here. -- Beland (talk) 03:57, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    With your commentary, this makes a lot of sense. I would point out that there was a lot of heat generated over YT reliability in the aforementioned RFC, so it would be good to point that it can be used. YT is not mentioned as a source for images in the images section above; an alternative would be to add it there in the list of common sources, but that also seems odd. I know one can point to the archive discussion, but that is not generally available knowledge for anyone looking at the guidance in future. Jim Killock (talk) 09:14, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    I added a clarifying note at Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Perennial sources for YouTube; hopefully this will not be controversial. -- Beland (talk) 02:44, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    Unfortunately that has been reverted as "unnecessary". It might make more sense here, because this is about video as illustration, and there is parallel advice for images above about CC content sources. Perhaps it should be parallel advice to this, eg mentioning that YT has a search facility for CC content (and there isn't anything else AFAIK). Jim Killock (talk) 09:10, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    I started a discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Reliable sources/Perennial sources#Imported YouTube videos. -- Beland (talk) 20:21, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    Thanks - quick observation that we have lost that the guidance for illustrative audio content would also generally derive from the images guidance. The music samples page linked is wholly focused on samples from copyrighted material; there is a lot of PD / CC music material on WP, especially for classical music. Sometimes this could do with subtitling, etc, care in positioning, checks for relevance, etc. Jim Killock (talk) 09:36, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    OK, what are you suggesting? -- Beland (talk) 18:59, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    I think, where appropriate, add audio, eg "The guidelines on this page also generally apply to videos and audio files"; maybe "where appropriate, for instance non-English language audio files should include subtitles". I'm not sure there is much else. Jim Killock (talk) 22:56, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    And where would you find that addition to be appropriate? -- Beland (talk) 02:37, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    I would amend the title to "Video and Audio content"; I would amend bullet one to "The guidelines on this page also generally apply to videos and audio files". Under "Similar to MOS:TEXTASIMAGES, for accessibility and file size reasons:" I would add "where appropriate, for instance non-English language audio files should include subtitles". The accessibility guidelines could move to be bullet two, in order that audio and video advice is at the top. Jim Killock (talk) 08:02, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    It looks to me like hardly anything on Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Images applies to audio files, and it seems like the wrong place to go looking for style advice about them. -- Beland (talk) 22:52, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    For example:
    These seem pretty substantially helpful guidance to me, and pretty similar level of relevance as to video files. Jim Killock (talk) 09:10, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    Yeah, most of the material in those sections is not relevant to audio. I'd say if you feel strongly that guidance is needed for audio generally and not just music samples, we should create a new page. Editors shouldn't have to read through a whole page about images just to pick out the occasional tidbit on audio files, if they're only interested in the latter. -- Beland (talk) 20:32, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    I've posted the 0.3 draft for now, since that wouldn't be changed by adding an audio page somewhere else. -- Beland (talk) 20:46, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    Thanks for posting the v 0.3. On audio, I would think about this from a few user perspectives:
    • There is currently no MOS advice at all on audio files and approaching general layout, pertinence, etc. What would the user do? Currently, MOS offers them nothing, so they must either guess or work off examples on other pages.
    • If a user asks for advice, where would they be pointed? (my guess: MOS:Images as closest match.
    IMO, it would be better to offer them something, even apologetically ("There is currently no detailed advice on MOS regarding use of audio files, but the basic principles of WP:DUE and some considerations at MOS:Images may be helpful.") This could be placed at a page relevant to other audio usage files, for example. Jim Killock (talk) 10:02, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Feel free to propose a draft if you like. It's also possible no particular guidance is needed, if people are able to figure this stuff out using common sense and regular editorial judgement, and if disputes arise, turn to the various policy and guideline pages on topics like due weight. -- Beland (talk) 21:56, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Given the small amount of material to include about this, and the redundancy that would be required with MOS:IMAGES if "MOS:VIDEOS" were its own page, and given the short nature of the audio samples MoS page, I think the most sensible approach is to merge all of this into a WP:Manual_of_Style/Images_and_multimedia page with a top MOS:MEDIA shortcut (which I'm surprised doesn't already exist as an internal disambiguation page), then MOS:IMAGES, etc., going to sections. We have too many separate MoS pages as it is, and this is an ideal merge of two of them and a proposed third.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Sure, that's a reasonable alternate approach. I think it would work if we put the things that apply across all three at the top, and then make it clear with section headers which those interested in a specific media type should look at without having to read inapplicable guidelines. -- Beland (talk) 08:22, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    +1 to both of these observations. Jim Killock (talk) 09:04, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Yeps. If we hammer out a videos-related section, I'll be happy to do the work (most MoS merges and the like are done by me because I kind of have a database in my head of all the rules and how they interrelate, and 19 years of observing how misinterpretations, lawyering, and other problems can be avoided by careful wording.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  14:23, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    I think what we could agree on for videos has been added. -- Beland (talk) 00:27, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    misleading text in Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style#Dashes

    The text on keyboard entry of dashes in Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style § Dashes is misleading. The text or on a Windows keyboard implies a technique specific to windows when in fact it is valid for any OS. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 15:20, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

    True. What it should say: "on a Windows keyboard enter them manually as Alt+0 150 (on the numeric keypad) for en dash, and Alt+0 151 for em dash." -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 16:02, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    Wrong on two counts:
    1. No. It should not say anything at all, per WP:NOTHOWTO.
    2. And even if it does, those alt codes are only valid for code page 1252 and related. They don't work if the user has a different default code page installed.
    Delete it completely. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 17:23, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    I doubt that NOTHOWTO is meant to apply to the MOS. It's surely helpful for editors and hence should stay, reworded if needed. Gawaon (talk) 08:26, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    Gaewon is correct: NOTHOWTO applies to articles only. MOS is littered with how-to stuff, as is should where the ratio (editor confusion and time saved)/(WP:MOSBLOAT) seems sufficiently high. However, if this starts getting into weeds of code pages and such, it may be best to relegate the whole thing to WP:How to make dashes, with a pointer to that from MOS. EEng 20:28, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    So why not simply recommend {{mdash}}, {{ndash}} and {{snd}} rather than advise keyboard callisthenics? --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 20:36, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    Yes, I have always advocated symbolic representations (templates such as you list, or html escapes such as &mdash;) of the various dashes (and in some cases, even hyphens), rather than having them appear literally in the wikisource, so that editors can see at a glance that the right character is present. But even though EEng is pretty much always right, I can't seem to get people on board with this. EEng 20:49, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    I am happy typing the dashes on my Apple keyboards but also happy with recommending the templates rather than giving keyboard-specific advice. What I would like to avoid is warring bands of gnomes going around changing unicode dashes to templated dashes and vice versa. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:31, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    Edit conflict: yes, different route to the same answer. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 20:38, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    JMF's policy understanding is mistaken above. WP:NOTHOWTO only applies to article content (and other reader-facing content, like portals and the front page features). If it applied to internal documentation, then we would have to delete the entire "Help:" namespace and about 95% what is in "Misplaced Pages:" namespace. However, the technical point JMF raised is entirely correct, and we should not be telling editors to use keyboard codes that will do the wrong thing (or nothing) if they don't happen to be using the "right" code page. To simply recommend {{mdash}}, {{ndash}} and {{snd}} is the sensible approach.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Let's just direct people to Misplaced Pages:How to make dashes. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 23:00, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    Is there a MOS guidance that applies to changing between common terms based on the name of the Wiki article?

    Do we have a guideline for dealing with different name, common names for the same thing (Inline-four engine vs Straight-four engine)? The target article, Straight-four engine, has used both names (changed in 2009 and 2022). Sources use both terms but I think the shorted "I4" is used more often in sources. I presume we would follow something like the MOS:ENGVAR where if there is no source preference we go with what the editors used first. Recently an editor, Kumboloi, made a number of good faith changes in linking articles from "inline-four" to "straight-four" to align external article text with the target article name. Is there a guide on this? How should this be handled? Springee (talk) 14:55, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

    It's a policy, our naming conventions policy, which largely doubles as our policy on article titles. Generally, for a given thing there's no reason to use a different name in the prose of any other article than one would use in the article about the thing itself, if that makes sense.Remsense ‥ 论 14:57, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    I'm not sure where the naming convention says we should change article text in a case like this. The article in question indicates both names are common (A straight-four engine (also referred to as an inline-four engine)). This is also reflected in the two name changes over the years. I don't see where the naming convention says we should favor the target article name vs what the individual article sources are using. Consider a hypothetical, I'm created a Wiki article about the new "CarX". My RS source that says, "CarX uses an inline four engine". Why would I not follow the source vs use the title of our straight four article? This is especially true if if the hyperlink is added later by a different editor. Also, until 2022 the title of the article was "inline". A consensus of 3 editors changed the article name. That's fine but the result is many changes to other articles. If a new consensus of 5 editors reverses the change do we flop back? I think it's less disruptive (makes articles more stable) if we avoid article text changes in cases like this. However, I am interested in knowing what guidance might apply here. Springee (talk) 15:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    I'm interested in understanding this. My motivation in making the edits came down to a suspicion that there was some type of penalty incurred by linking through a redirect page, or that the redirects imposed a maintenance overhead. I hadn't read the naming convention, but if there's no real reason to reduce the number of redirected links, and recognizing that the target page could just as easily be renamed again in the future, I'll stop doing these edits. (Personally, I prefer "inline" to "straight", but I can see how the renaming would help organize the associated pages.) Thanks. Kumboloi (talk) 15:56, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    My reasoning is WP:NC stresses how we are required to name things, as we are un all editorial decisions, based on WP:V and WP:NPOV (in many cases this boils down to the result of WP:COMMONNAME). It has provisions specific to the article title and not the body, but much of it is expressing how to apply V and NPOV in deciding what to call things.
    If we take alternative names as such—e.g. that, all else being equal, we do take inline four and straight four to be synonyms, truly referring to the same thing for our purposes—it makes very little sense to "wall off" which names are used in a particular article, as there are no clear limits on how strictly this would have to be observed. Am I allowed to use any synonymous nouns, verbs, or adjectives in my synthesis that don't happen to appear in my three best sources? On the other hand, naming according to a generalized scope is surely more coherent for a hyperlinked encyclopedia providing tertiary analysis instead of merely refactoring and reshuffling the specific language of our secondary sources.
    Of course exceptions abound, much of the time alternative names and redirects should be freely used according to syntactical and contextual concerns—but I believe this to be correct mindset to assume by default. I don't think any given article that uses First World War needs to be changed. However, in cases like these, I feel it pays dividends to use terminology consistently between pages. If readers are encountering technical or domain specific language for the first time, we create the most helpful and coherent tertiary analysis for them if we zoom out a bit. It makes no sense to prefer Sassanid to Sasanian just because the book we're citing prefers the former—e.g., in an article about a specific battle, or a broad conceptual article not specific to the Sasanians—our deliberately preferring Sassanid simply does not aid the reader in becoming familiar with whatever additional context they're going to go to Sasanian Empire for in order to better understand our other article.
    If I wake up and find this totally incoherent, I apologize. It's hard to speak clearly about naming and reference, though it's one of my favorite things to think about. Remsense ‥ 论 16:49, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    WP:NOTBROKEN clearly says: "Piping links solely to avoid redirects is generally a time-wasting exercise that can actually be detrimental. It is almost never helpful to replace ] with ]." So if a link already leads to the correct article, but using an alternative name that redirects, that's absolutely fine and nothing more needs to be done. I realize that you're probably not talking about piping, but about changing the link text and link target together – but that too is unnecessary if the existing link target works fine (by redirecting). Gawaon (talk) 17:12, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Kumboloi, thanks for that explanation. It reaffirms my believe that you were acting in good faith (I hope you took my revert that way as well). Springee (talk) 19:11, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    I think there needs to be a good reason to not use the article title in text (and they do exist), and that can be discussed on a per-case basis at the relevant article (or other) talk page.—Bagumba (talk) 17:19, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Agreed. Remsense ‥ 论 17:21, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Just so long as it is realized that THERE RATHER OFTEN IS A GOOD REASON! National language preferences for one thing. Busywork drive-by changes should be strongly discouraged. Johnbod (talk) 18:48, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Goes without saying! Remsense ‥ 论 19:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    I just thought I'd drive by and agree with that. EEng 22:10, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    The answer the the OP's question is "More or less yes", in the form of MOS:STYLEVAR. Remesense's idea above that article titles policy and its dependent naming-conventions guidelines and essays (which actually defer to MoS on style questions) somehow dictate in-article content. They absolutely do not, or we would simply merge them. However, agreement with the page title can actually qualify as a good reason for a text change under STYLEVAR a lot of time, such as when a old page title (and our mirroring of it in the text) was a misnomer, unhelpfully ambiguous, obsolete, or obscurantist. When such problems don't apply, then having more than one way to refer to the subject is a boon to editors and readers, since it allows us to write less repetitively. But the lead should almost always agree with the title, and start with the term/name in the title and secondarily provide any noteworthy alternative(s). Some exceptions of course apply, such as when a term/name in the title is a colloquialism and used for WP:COMMONNAME purposes in the title but is not the best way to introduce the first sentence (this is especially common at biographical articles, in which we often give the full "Elizabeth" or "Robert" name of someone more commonly called "Liz" or "Bobby" and given that way in the page title).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:28, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    I think they must dictate in-article content to a degree at least—it would make no sense to use a particular name in the title and initial definition (I've been assuming congruence throughout, e.g. no disambiguators considered) and then never again. Remsense ‥ 论 03:36, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    That's a correlation/causation mix-up. What you're talking about is just WP:Common sense (to the point of "Don't be intentionally perverse as if with a goal of confusing readers as much as possible") and a matter of MOS:BETTER. It's not an element of title policy or of naming conventions, which do not address article content (except a few of the worst-written NC pages have a statement or two in them about body content that needs to move out of those pages; I've been cleaning those up as I run across them).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  14:18, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    I've been racking my brain trying to articulate exactly what I mean here, but I do not think it is merely correlative. Hopefully that is a useful thought inasmuch beyond just the trivial truth that the language one is exposed to affects the language they go on to use and think in terms of. Remsense ‥ 论 19:32, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

    Legibility of thumbnails at default size

    Moved from Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Images § Legibility of thumbnails at default size
    Noisy haze at 220px
    Noisy haze at 165px

    I am surprised there is no direct statement along the lines of If possible, the selection, placement, and sizing of images should allow readers to fully decipher what they are intended to illustrate; thumbnails should be legible with the default base size of 220px without requiring readers to expand them. It seems like much of the guidance has this as an unstated goal, but there are cases where it is slightly less intuitive that this is a principle that editors should heed. My one worry is hypothetical quibbling over what any given image is intended to illustrate—is the specific text written on a street sign important for illustrative purposes?—but I feel like that's totally explicable in each instance via editor discussion. It's clear that some appropriate images cannot be legible at thumbnail size in context, either because they are visually intricate or the placement context simply won't allow it, but it seems helpful to state that editors should make an attempt when it is possible. Remsense ‥ 论 16:02, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

    @Remsense: Can you give an example? Magnolia677 (talk) 16:39, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    Clicked around until I found one: at Crony capitalism#In sections of an economy, it's not really possible for me to discern the field of figures as men sitting at desks rather than just noise. This image should be displayed at a slightly larger size, and maybe cropped a bit.
    Another class of examples is insignia and coats of arms, where arguably key details that would be legible in the original contexts are illegible at thumbnail sizes in infoboxes, especially in cases where there are especially elaborate versions that editors sometimes opt for out of a misplaced sense of completeness (I guess). Remsense ‥ 论 17:03, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    They're everywhere. Magnolia677 (talk) 21:23, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    That is something that gives me pause: this seems like a common-sense guideline to me, but either it's so obvious that it shouldn't be a guideline (?) or it's not nearly as obvious to others. Remsense ‥ 论 21:48, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    I've always found it odd that we don't have a minimum size recommendation. Can't tell you how many times I see collages or galleries that have teeny mini images that lack accessibility for all. Moxy🍁 03:49, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    It's a perfectly reasonable thing to do to print articles out (or otherwise have them in a format where the thumbnails are all you get), also. Remsense ‥ 论 03:51, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    I do worry my criterion above is too loosey-goosey to be a good guideline; I don't think there's a problem with speaking in terms of minimum size as such, maybe it's better getting the intended point across? Remsense ‥ 论 03:55, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Definitely better getting the intended point across. If we try to impose a numeric min. size, people are going to argue about it until the end of fargin' time, based on the behavior of their preferred devices and browsers, and so on.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:17, 23 December 2024 (UTC); rev'd. 13:39, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    What do you think about the potential phrasing first presented—i.e. if at all possible, what images are being used to illustrate should be fully legible when scaled according to the default base size Remsense ‥ 论 03:23, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Lots of unnecessary words. When possible, images with text should be legible when ... I'm not sure what "according to" the default base size means. Is it really the default base size? Are more than handful of editors reading this going to understand what "base size" means? I thinking there must be a clearer way to get the point across, but the goal seems right. (Speaking of "getting the intended point across": ironically, my previous message had an extraneous word, "than", in it – in a position that reversed or at least badly confused my meaning, so I've removed it.)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:39, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    I'm not sure how to phrase it. It's not just images with text either, it's all images that are added but cannot actually be deciphered without expansion. Remsense ‥ 论 04:40, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Commas around incorporated businesses' names

    from looking at MOS:COMMA, there isn't any guidance on how to deal with names with Inc.. multiple articles do any of the following, either with no comma, a comma only before and a comma around the word.

    1. Mumumu Inc. is a company ...
    2. Mumumu, Inc. is a company ...
    3. Mumumu, Inc., is a company ...

    I am aware that the commaless and comma style may coexist (sometimes in the same article!), however the second and third styles should likely be decided upon. Juwan (talk) 01:09, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

    An editing policy question

    When I read Wiki policy and guidance pages, I sometimes find shall used instead of will to indicate what must be done — for example, in the Signs of Sockpuppetry article, we find: "The more signs that are present, the more likely sockpuppetry is occurring, though no accusations shall be made unless, beyond a reasonable doubt, one is really certain."

    Granted that shall is often used this way in government and judicial documents, I think it sounds somewhat at odds with the more user-friendly ambience Misplaced Pages has tried to create for editors. Besides, shall is not consistently applied throughout the policy and guidance pages — for example, in the same Signs of Sockpuppetry article, we find: "The closing administrator will be required to follow the consensus, even if they personally disagree."

    — For the above reasons, wouldn't it be in Misplaced Pages's best interests to avoid using the conversationally archaic shall in these articles and replace it with will?? I doubt that this would make editors with wrongdoing on their minds less likely to behave as desired.

    — But if the decision is made to continue "shalling," then for the sake of consistency couldn't a search-and-replace be done throughout the policy and guidance articles to replace will with shall where the word needs to indicate what must be done? Augnablik (talk) 16:53, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

    It's fine, really. This is one of those things the MOS exists to obliquely neutralize—i.e. this is a pretty conjectural position and not worth getting into all-in or all-out discussions over. Remsense ‥ 论 17:16, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
    “Obliquely neutralize” — there’s a new one for me! 😅
    I just thought it would help lighten the bureaucratic tone of these articles to dial down the legalese, as many editors feel increasingly on edge with all the rules and regulations they discover the more they wade into Misplaced Pages. Augnablik (talk) 17:31, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
    Genuinely, I apologize that I can't talk normal when the situation would benefit from it. Take that how you will. Remsense ‥ 论 17:32, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
    Or shall. EEng 17:39, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
    😂 Augnablik (talk) 07:44, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
    Am losing the will to live here, mate. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:34, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
    Just be aware that you’ve entered the purview of a global encyclopedia, and that means you will encounter forms of English that aren’t necessarily common locally to wherever you live. MapReader (talk) 17:57, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
    Is this one of those rfc:2119 situations where we should stick to a limited number of modal verbs on a sliding scale (must > should > may)? --Redrose64 🦌 (talk) 18:42, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
    @MapReader, Although I’m aware of different styles of English in different parts of the world, the shall/will issue I’ve raised here is more about how Misplaced Pages wants to show officially expected actions in particular situations.
    Not like , “Today I shall go to the beach” … but like, “Administrators shall hold discussions on the matter for one week before reaching a decision.” Augnablik (talk) 12:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
    Nevertheless, ‘shall’ is still reasonably common usage in formal, official or legal written texts, in the UK, in a way that I don’t think you can say for the US (but willing to be corrected…), and is not considered particularly user-unfriendly. Your observation to the contrary above is therefore pitched from the perspective of a particular Engvar, which was my original point. MapReader (talk) 15:16, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
    @MapReader, you're probably right about "how official" shall sounds to UK and US readers of official documents. And frankly, that word is still used from time to time in official documents in the US, even though much more rarely these days. Even so, here's a thought: if will would work equally well as shall in Misplaced Pages policy and guidance documents, why not use it consistently here so as to make "official stuff" sound a bit less bureaucratic but at the same time affirming of expected behavior?
    Though I'm American, I doubt that any of our UK cousins across the pond would feel affronted if Misplaced Pages consciously adopted will in its policy and guidelines. Wouldn't it simply be one more example of Misplaced Pages's intentions of providing as welcoming and user-friendly environment as possible in which to work, while in no way demeaning other varieties of writing?
    Alternatively, to avoid the whole shall/will issue, there are still other ways wording could be done. For example, instead of "Administrators shall hold discussions...,” we could say, "Administrators are to hold discussions ....” Augnablik (talk) 11:04, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
    More rules about how rules should be written could be one step forward, two steps back. EEng 12:28, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
    Onbiously, you're free to edit how you want, but as a general rule, surely it isn't WP's object, nor that of the MoS, to try and enforce general language preferences on our editors? MapReader (talk) 11:41, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
    You state the onbious. EEng 12:28, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
    Well, @MapReader, I think it’s time for me to gracefully bow out of the discussion now. My only Intent in making my suggestion was far from an attempt to enforce, though I see how it might be interpreted that way.
    Instead, I was trying to make a case for a slight change in wording that seemed to me could help Misplaced Pages accomplish its very positive goal of creating an open, light, friendly ambience — just as seniors helping in the Teahouse and elsewhere are asked to do with those who ask questions. I know that as some editors get involved with Misplaced Pages, they come to feel weighed down by many rules and regulations and even become fearful they might make a slip and face serious consequences.
    It was this I hoped my suggestion might help prevent in the long run, with the flip-side benefit of editor retention. Augnablik (talk) 12:37, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

    Discussion at Archimedes § MOS:'S (redux)

     You are invited to join the discussion at Archimedes § MOS:'S. Remsense ‥ 论 21:13, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Discussion on American football bio leads

    See here. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 19:07, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

    Usage of historical place names in infoboxes

    Some feedback here would be nice. Thanks --Flominator (talk) 19:34, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

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