| Revision as of 20:05, 6 July 2013 editDarkness Shines (talk | contribs)31,762 edits →Edit request on 6 July 2013: Ce← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 13:12, 19 September 2024 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,305,781 editsm Archiving 2 discussion(s) to Talk:2002 Gujarat riots/Archive 8) (bot |
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{{On this day|date1=2005-02-27|oldid1=16332577|date2=2012-02-27|oldid2=479209102|date3=2015-02-27|oldid3=648874268|date4=2017-02-27|oldid4=767768467|date5=2020-02-27|oldid5=942936243|date6=2022-02-27|oldid6=1074273797|date7=2023-02-27|oldid7=1141869973}} |
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{{Archive basics|archive=Talk:2002 Gujarat riots/Archive %(counter)d|counter=7}} |
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{{Archive box |search=yes |bot=MiszaBot I |age=20 |units=days |auto=yes |index=/Archive index | |
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| author = Aria Thaker |
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| title = Indian election battles are being fought on Misplaced Pages, too |
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| url = https://qz.com/india/1620023/aatish-taseers-wikipedia-page-isnt-the-only-target-of-modi-fans/ |
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| date = 16 May 2019 |
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| accessdate = 16 May 2019 |
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| author2 = Rachel Chitra |
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| title2 = 1600 edits on Delhi riots, Wiki wars turn fierce on ideology |
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| url2 = https://www.pressreader.com/india/the-times-of-india-new-delhi-edition/20200314/282067689002544 |
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| date2 = 14 March 2020 |
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| accessdate2 = 15 March 2020 |
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* <nowiki>]</nowiki> The anchor (#Banerjee Committee) has been ] before. <!-- {"title":"Banerjee Committee","appear":{"revid":545073329,"parentid":545062024,"timestamp":"2013-03-17T22:31:06Z","removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":},"disappear":{"revid":566862558,"parentid":566770755,"timestamp":"2013-08-02T14:59:42Z","removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":}} --> |
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== Request for comment == |
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== "Caused by" parameter == |
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{{rfc|hist|pol|rfcid=8867BB0}} |
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The following content was recently removed from this article, should it be restored? ] (]) 06:01, 18 June 2013 (UTC) |
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These attacks have been described by ] as ] and a new form of ], and that these pogroms are not riots but "organized political massacres".<ref name=Pandey>{{cite book|last=Pandey|first=Gyanendra|title=Routine violence: nations, fragments, histories|publisher=Stanford University Press|isbn=978-0804752640|pages=187-188|year=2005|month=November}}</ref> According to ] the only conclusion from the evidence which is available points to a methodical Anti-Muslim pogrom which was carried out with exceptional brutality and was highly coordinated.<ref name=Brass4>{{cite book|last=Brass|first=Paul R.|title=The Production of Hindu-Muslim Violence in Contemporary India|year=2005|publisher=University of Washington Press|isbn=978-0295985060|page=388|month=July}}</ref> |
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*'''Comment''': Just to be clear, the content was removed from the lead of the article not from the body and the content was not present in the body, Lead is the summary of body and if few editors want to overlook this simple logic then nothing can be done.-] (]) 18:09, 17 June 2013 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment''': . If it is covered in multiple highly reliable sources, it can be included. I don't think the 2 authors you mentioned have enough credibility for such exceptional claim. ] (]) 19:21, 17 June 2013 (UTC) |
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::There are no shortage of sources which call this incident a pogrom, help ] (]) 19:43, 18 June 2013 (UTC) |
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:::I have do agree with DS. We have multiple gold standard academic sources giving a similar picture. See e.g.{{cite book|author1=Barbara D. Metcalf|author2=Thomas R. Metcalf|title=A Concise History of Modern India|accessdate=19 June 2013|date=28 September 2006|publisher=Cambridge University Press|isbn=978-1-139-45887-0|pages=299–}}: ''"In the first years of the new century, as in the decade before, communal violence accompanied the growing liberalized economy. By far the most serious was the 2002 railway carriage fire at Godhra and the subsequent weeks-long concerted ‘pogrom’ directed against Gujarat’s Muslims..... The Gujarat state government, far from seeking to contain Hindu ‘reprisals’, tacitly connived at the ensuing violence. For three days the police stood idly by as Hindu mobs, led by VHP and BJP activists, using computer printouts from the records of the Ahmedabad municipal corporation, identified Muslim shops and residences, pulled their owners outside, killed the man and raped and killed the women, and then set the buildings afire. From Ahmedabad the violence spread to other Gujarat cities and even into the countryside. Order was restored only when the army was deployed throughout the state. At least 1,000people died and some 150,000 had to take shelter in relief camps.Few Muslims ever returned to the neighbourhoods in which they had originally lived.''" ] (]) 08:03, 19 June 2013 (UTC) |
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::::First, the applicability of the word "pogrom" was discussed in detail ] as well as on the AFD <u>]</u>. Harping on the same thing again and again is disruptive. I don't wish to repeat my claims again and again. This was not a pogrom, period. |
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::::Second, Author's contentious claims are nothing but personal ''opinions''. We must ''look'' to balance the ]. ]] <span class="plainlinks"></span> 09:30, 19 June 2013 (UTC) |
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:::::* Not the same discussion. Moving the article to a name containing pogrom, is not the same as including significant published views in the article (per our ] policy) that characterise the events as a pogrom. |
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:::::* ''"This was not a pogrom, period.''" - I believe this comment is characteristic of major POV issues you have with this article. To wit, you believe you know the truth of the events and that your own beliefs about the topic trump what has been published in high quality academic RS. This is not how we write wikipedia articles. We should be putting aside our own beliefs. Identifying high quality sources and dispassionately representing what they say. If high quality RS (e.g. books published by distinguished University presses, written by professors in relevant fields) disagree on particular points, then we include the different viewpoints. That is what our ] policy says. |
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:::::* Your final comment is incoherent. Academics published by scholarly presses are the best sources for articles such as this. Please see ]: "''Where available, academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources, such as in history..."'; ]:''"Historical articles on wikipedia should use scholarly works where possible....Historical scholarship is: Books published by academic and scholarly presses by historians"'' |
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::::::Currently the article relies to much on primary source journalism from the time of the events. This type of source is not preferred for historical articles (again see ]) and should be phased out and replaced with the kind of scholarship DS is proposing. If there are alternate views in high quality academic sources, of course they should all be included per ]. But as it stands trying to keep scholarly sources out of the article that is largely based on lower quality sources is simply not tenable. ] (]) 10:29, 19 June 2013 (UTC) |
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:::::::*It is not what MrT believes or some other author believes, this cannot be called a Pogrom unless it is proven. Did any court in India or International held the Gujarat or Indian government responsible for the violence?. There was an investigation against the Chief Minister for his alleged involvement in the violence, the Investigation team did not find any evidence. You provided a 2006 source above which is outdated because it has not taken into consideration the SIT report(2010) which did not find any fault with the state government.-] (]) 11:16, 19 June 2013 (UTC) |
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::::::::*Yes, it doesn't matter what I believe or anyone ''believes'' unless the allegation is proven in a court of law. ]] <span class="plainlinks"></span> 11:25, 19 June 2013 (UTC) |
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:::::::{{ec}}@Dlv: I really don't know what to say, if your mind is already made-up. This IS about the same issue. It may not be ''identical'' but the refutations are going to be the ''same''. <p>If I had a bucket and showed you the bucket would you still ask for a newspaper article to prove that I had a bucket? That was not a pogrom because if it were majority of the ''sources'' wouldn't call it by any other name. They would clearly mention that POLICE connived at all this. The fact of the matter is, they didn't connive (look it up) even though ''some'' would have liked to see that. I reiterate, I doubt anything is more credible than the Verdict, presented by a ''Judiciary committee in a Court of Law'', basing on the findings of a ''Supreme court'' appointed ''investigative'' body which were supported by ''years'' of investigation and ''literally'' thousands of testimonies. No charge could be brought against Narendra Modi. He was in a way ''exonerated'' by the report presented by the Supreme court Investigative Team.<sup></sup> As Dharma wrote ], ″academic research of any superior quality cannot replace a judicial decision″. I don't believe that the article currently depends very much on primary sources. Authorities imposed a curfew in Gujarat they didn't sit back and watch idly. A good many people (mostly Hindus) were ''punished'' (sentenced to life in prison). If this was a ′pogrom′ then I dare say ''every'' random act of communal ''vengeance'' is a pogrom. <p>About '''Barbara Metcalf and her book''': <ol><li>In the same book Barbara Metcalf calls the violence following Babri Masjid demolition an anti-muslim ′pogrom′, that is a far cry from ''violence'', let alone a real pogrom. Plurality of Hindus died too. Don't forget ''Indian Mujahideen'' a banned outfit carried out terrorist attacks on Hindus citing demolition of Babri Mosque as a justification.<sup></sup> How is it a pogrom then? <li>About the cause of Godhra Train Fire, she very brashly proclaims, "''it was almost certainly not deliberately set by Muslims on the station platform, as Hindus frequently alleged''". There is not a shred of doubt in her mind. She had already independently ''precluded'' the possibility of veracity in the allegations of Hindu witnesses before the investigations ''themselves'' were over. That reeks of an utterly ''inauspicious prejudice'' and a ''doctrinaire attitude''. </ol> |
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:::::::It seems as though she, in ''2006'', had more access to the info and evidences than the authorities of India did. She has clearly done it on ''purpose'' and I am not sure if that purpose is ''neutral'' or ''penchant-free''. This one-sided focus on Anti-muslim violence while ignoring the plights of other faiths really strikes me as ''conspicuous'' to say the least. ]] <span class="plainlinks"></span> 11:22, 19 June 2013 (UTC) |
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::::::::{{ec}}Let us leave aside the intentions of the author. In 2006, the author '''might''' have made some assumptions, many of the important verdicts like the verdict in ] case the ] case came after 2010, so we cannot use this outdated source.-] (]) 11:41, 19 June 2013 (UTC) |
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''"this cannot be called a Pogrom unless it is proven.''" We have high quality academic sources that describe the event as a pogrom. ], a core policy of our encyclopaedia sates that we should represent ''" all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic.''" These academics in appropriate fields that have been published by distinguished University presses are significant views published in RS on the topic. If this article is to comply with core policies and principles of the encyclopaedia this viewpoint must be included. You can't really get around that. We can't say that it is a fact unless there is agreement in RS on the point, but the text under discussion is for the material to be correctly attributed to the academic. |
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Your point about the date of the publication of the source has some validity. But here we must be consistant. If you want to prohibit all sources prior to 2006 or 2010 do it consistently. As I have already pointed out a lot of the sources currently in the article are primary source journalism from the time of the events. |
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Mr T's arguments critiquing academic sources based on his own beliefs on the topic are not arguments that carry any weight at all in Misplaced Pages. The two sources he does cite are journalism. We do not write historical articles based on journalist sources. You cannot cite a piece of journalism to refute what has been written by academics published under scholarly imprints (gold standard sources). ] (]) 13:11, 19 June 2013 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment''': In addition to what {{UT|Neo}} said, I say the following. ''Politically organized''?? Who was convicted? In India, like other nations, people are presumed innocent unless proven guilty, if no politician is guilty of conspiring then how is it a politically ''organized'' massacre? Precisely these sort of unfounded innuendos we are required to bar from inclusion. Darkness Shines is pushing a very specific agenda on multiple articles and discussion boards. From ] to ] to ] and so on. This is turning into an unacceptable pattern of ''persistent'' ]. ]] <span class="plainlinks"></span> 07:00, 18 June 2013 (UTC) |
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* '''Comment''' - Both citations are high quality academic sources: professors in relevant fields published under notable academic imprints. I think the article is suffering from major POV issues and the way to get it back on track is to shift towards these kind of high quality sources and away from the lower quality sources. ] (]) 20:18, 18 June 2013 (UTC) |
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* '''Question''': Some have argued the viewpoints expressed in these academic sources should not be included in the article because of ]. What sources are there of equal quality or better (i.e. at least professor of relevant field published by notable academic press) that dispute the viewpoint in the sources under discussion? ] (]) 13:18, 19 June 2013 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment''' - I was directed here by the RFC bot. After reading the article and discussion I have to say that that the Stanford University Press and University of Washington Press are top notch academic sources. In the absence of compelling academic or other RS saying this was explicitly ''not'' a pogrom, they should be used in the article and lead. Further, the lack of criminal convictions of authorities is not dispositive. Pogroms, as I understand them, are violent attacks by a majority against a minority often with official inaction or support. Hence official inaction (lack of criminal convictions) doesn't rule out pogrom. I agree with Dlv999. Something has gone wrong at an article when solid academic reliable sources are dumped. ] (]) 13:35, 19 June 2013 (UTC) |
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::Thats a sensible comment Capitalismojo. I have been asking this question of mine at various forums wherever this issue has been dragged by editors but everyone has refrained from answer me. Probably you wont. My question is; what is a pogrom? Your understanding is that the attacks are ''often'' with official inaction or support. Is this a universal definition of pogrom or are other definitions also available? §§]§§ {]/]} 15:22, 19 June 2013 (UTC) |
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:::''RS saying this was explicitly ''not'' a pogrom'' - We don't include radical claims into articles based on absence of ''word-for-word'' negation. Majority of RSes ''don't'' call it as ′pogrom′ that is intrinsically saying something. You ''cannot'' demand that reliable sources specifically claim ''it was not a "pogrom"''. They won't do that. What they would do is call it by the right name and that's what ''majority of RSes'' are doing. <br>''official inaction (lack of criminal convictions) doesn't rule out pogrom'' - official inaction? But my point is, that the administration, the police were not ''inactive''. <br>''lack of criminal convictions of authorities is not dispositive'' - but the verdict from the court of law is, I think. That this was a pogrom is an ''unsubstantiated'' fringe opinion and that is why measuring ] is relevant. Something has gone wrong at an article ''when'' personal opinions of authors and syntheses of sources are callously included. ]] <span class="plainlinks"></span> 15:53, 19 June 2013 (UTC) |
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::::Here are two more very recent academic sources describing the events as "pogrom". |
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:::# {{cite journal|coauthors=Raheel Dhattiwala; Michael Biggs|title=The Political Logic of Ethnic Violence: The Anti-Muslim Pogrom in Gujarat, 2002|journal=Politics & Society|date=December 2012|year=2012|month=December|volume=40|pages=483-516|doi=10.1177/0032329212461125|url=http://users.ox.ac.uk/~sfos0060/2002.pdf|accessdate=19/06/2013}} |
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:::# {{cite book|author=Parvis Ghassem-Fachandi|title=Pogrom in Gujarat: Hindu Nationalism and Anti-Muslim Violence in India|url=http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=EFnjJa_xefsC&source=gbs_navlinks_s|accessdate=19 June 2013|date=8 April 2012|publisher=Princeton University Press|isbn=978-1-4008-4259-9}} |
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::::It is simply not credible for editors to keep making unsupported claims that this view of the topic is a "fringe opinion" in light of the source evidence that has been presented. Standford University Press, University of Washington Press, Cambridge University Press, Princeton University Press. These are among the most prestigious academic publishing imprints you will find anywhere. They are not in the business of publishing "''unsubstantiated'' fringe opinion". ] (]) 07:33, 20 June 2013 (UTC) |
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:::*Here some more news reports(my emphases): |
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:::#: |
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:::#:<blockquote>The Supreme-Court-appointed Special Investigation Team, which submitted a closure report on the probe into the Zakia Jafri petition levelling serious charges against Narendra Modi and 62 others in connection with the 2002 communal riots, '''has not found any evidence''' of the Chief Minister having promoted enmity among various communities on religious grounds.<p>In the section dealing with Mr. Modi in its 541-page report, '''the SIT on the contrary claimed that the Chief Minister had repeatedly appealed to the people for peace and had also taken due care for the rehabilitation and medical facilities for the riot victims in the relief camps.'''</blockquote> |
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:::# |
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:::#:<blockquote>″SIT, which recently submitted a status report to the Supreme Court, has found no substantial evidence to show that Modi allowed the riots to rage on.<br> Sources said the SIT found '''no substance''' in petitioner Zakia Jafri's allegations that there was dereliction of duty on Modi's part. <p>Zakia is the widow of Congress MP Ehsan Jafri, who was killed along with others during a mob attack on Gulbarg housing society in Ahmedabad in 2002. <br>Zakia had '''alleged''' the ''state administration failed'' to discharge its constitutional duties during the riots. Her complaint had identical charges against others, including cabinet ministers and MLAs.<p>In March, Modi was questioned by the SIT after the Supreme Court asked for an investigation into Jafri's complaint.″</blockquote> |
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:::#The allegations are ''biased and baseless''. |
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:::#:<blockquote>″Putting up a strong defence of the Gujarat Chief Minister, Mr Advani said in his 60 years of political life he has not known any of his colleague “so consistently, so viciously maligned by opponents as Narendra Modi”.″</blockquote> |
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:::#SIT-representative R. S. Jamuar said in response to the much-touted "appeal": |
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::::<blockquote>"In comparison to the complaint as defined in Criminal Procedure Code(CrPC), this (the FIR) is '''not at all a complaint''', it's a piece of waste paper to be thrown away, '''It's a fiction or novel written by 4-5 persons''' and complainant Zakia has '''no knowledge about anything written in it'''."</blockquote> |
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::::This sort of mudslinging and allegations are a part and parcel of a '''POLITICAL''' game. Misplaced Pages, fortunately, is not part of that political circle. ]] <span class="plainlinks"></span> 08:17, 20 June 2013 (UTC) |
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:::::As previously discussed journalism is not a good source for articles on contentious historical events, especially in this case where academic sources cite the "inflammatory" press reports as a significant factor in the events themselves (see e.g. citation 1. pg 486 in my comment above). Myself and DS have cited only academic scholarship and I would ask you to try to keep to a similar standard of sourcing. ] (]) 09:08, 20 June 2013 (UTC) |
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::::::If these were op-eds or personal opinion then your comment would have had some merit. But these are essentially analysis of SIT reports and quotes from the representatives. What's wrong with that? In fact what ''you'' think is "academic" is not neutral, I would argue. ]] <span class="plainlinks"></span> 09:23, 20 June 2013 (UTC) |
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:::::::My comments are based on Misplaced Pages policy and guidance, which I have cited to you, which tells us to base historical articles on academic scholarship, and that journalism is not academic scholarship. ] (]) 09:29, 20 June 2013 (UTC) |
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;We are straying away from the main issue: |
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It is the allegation of '''State terrorism'''. These sort of outdated, prejudicial personal commentaries became even more '''''irrelevant''''' after the Supreme Court appointed investigative team's report was put forward. That accusation was a personal perspective of the "author" and what he thought was going on. He thinks India is a sponsor of "state terrorism". To frame India as a sponsor of State terrorism based on people's personal opinion is intolerable. As ] wrote at an ]: "A historian doesn’t decide on whether a act is terrorism or not. He might ''opine'' on whether it is terrorism or not. A judicial system ''decides'' on whether it is terrorism or not."(emphasis in original) |
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This is exactly the sort of ''scandalmongering'' Misplaced Pages tends to actively avoid. ]] <span class="plainlinks"></span> 08:24, 20 June 2013 (UTC) |
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:Writings of a professor of a relevant field published by a prestigious University press in an area of his competence is not regarded by Misplaced Pages as "prejudicial personal commentaries". In fact this is just the kind of source that we can and should be including in our article according to our ] policy, which tells us to include "all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources". |
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:There is a substantial body of high quality academic scholarship discussing state government involvement in the violence. We have seen that published academics refer to the violence as a "pogrom". Gyanendra Pandey uses the term "State<s>-sponsored</s> terrorism" (text amended per DS comment below). I think the different ways the events have been characterized should be discussed as an aspect of the topic in our article, according to the high quality RS that have been cited in this discussion. I would say that what is more important than the semantic debate is the actual substance of what these sources are saying about the violence and the state involvement in the violence. ] (]) 09:26, 20 June 2013 (UTC) |
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:It is state terrorism, not state sponsored terrorism. And it is not the only source which says this. ] (]) 10:51, 20 June 2013 (UTC) |
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::Even ''worse'' than State-sponsored terrorism. ]] <span class="plainlinks"></span> 11:54, 20 June 2013 (UTC) |
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{{ping|D4iNa4}} The ] you linked to does not in any way establish consensus for this parameter; nor do the sources provided there actually support it. We have sourced text in the lead and the body saying that the causes of the riots were complex (to say the least). Please demonstrate that this text is ] (not just verifiable). Pinging {{ping|RegentsPark|Kautilya3|El cid, el campeador|Capitals00}} as the other participants in that discussion (not pinging Sdmarathe, as he is banned from interacting with me and therefore cannot participate directly in this discussion). <span style="font-family:Papyrus">] (])</span> 11:40, 20 August 2022 (UTC) |
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* Here is another up to date academic source to add to the list: |
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: I added additional causes mentioned in the lead. -- ] (]) 14:40, 20 August 2022 (UTC) |
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::"Unless later research disproves the proposition, the existing reports give us every reason to believe the ''riots'' in Gujarat were actually full-blooded ''pogroms''. Two common reference sources define pogrom as follows: |
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::That's now more complete, and also more confusing. The Godhra burning is generally acknowledged as a trigger, but not a root cause. State terrorism and ethnic cleansing are terms used for the riots themselves; sources say "the riots were an example of ethnic cleansing", not "the riots were caused by ethnic cleansing". It's just too complex to convey in three words in the infobox; hence my contention that it should just be removed. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">] (])</span> 16:08, 20 August 2022 (UTC) |
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:::An organized, often officially encouraged massacre or persecution of a minority group, especially one conducted against Jews. (www.dictionary.com) |
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:::{{ping|Vanamonde93}} It does seem "complex" and one reason is indeed not enough for a infobox. Even in 2017, we had 1 more option that we should get rid of the infobox but 5 years have passed and there has been no other controversy with the infobox. I agree that this new addition is even more confusing because "state terrorism" (very minority view) and "ethnic cleansing" (one of the common view) is the classification of the riot than the "cause". I agree that this parameter can be blanked again. ] (]) 07:49, 21 August 2022 (UTC) |
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:::A mob attack, either approved or condoned by authorities, against the persons and property of a religious, racial, or national minority. (www.britanica.com) |
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::::Kautilya, I trust that's okay with you? <span style="font-family:Papyrus">] (])</span> 07:51, 21 August 2022 (UTC) |
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::After the train was torched, the state made no attemot to preven, or stop, revenge killings. State police looked the other way, as gangs murdered scores of Muslims with remarkable ease. 7 The statements of NGOs most closely associated with Gujarat state government, run by the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), openly supported anti-Muslim violence. According to the Vishva Hindu Parishad (VHP), the BJP government did what was absolutely necessary: namely, allow Hindu retaliation against the Muslims, including those who had nothing to do with the mob that had originally torched the train in Ghodhra.8"({{cite book|author1=Atul Kohli|author2=Prerna Singh|title=Routledge Handbook of Indian Politics|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=glfPl6xapzgC&pg=PA157|accessdate=20 June 2013|year=2013|publisher=Routledge|isbn=978-0-415-77685-1|page=157}}) ] (]) 18:08, 20 June 2013 (UTC) |
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::I don't think the other two reasons - State terrorism & Ethnic cleansing - should be listed, as they have not been proven. We should stick to findings instead of some individual's opinion. Changes like this would make Misplaced Pages look like an opinion piece. ] 20:46, 26 January 2023 (UTC) |
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*] characterize this as a pogrom. To deny this because the Indian government did not prosecute the pogromists is absurd: the essence of a pogrom is that authorities look the other way and often covertly assist or collude with the attackers, as seems to be clearly established happened in 2002. --] | ] 17:26, 28 June 2013 (UTC) |
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::: Misplaced Pages is written based on ], and those sources do not agree that Godhra was the sole reason for the scale of violence that ensued. |
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*It would seem to be that the consensus would be to include the content. Any objections? ] (]) 17:20, 1 July 2013 (UTC) |
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::: In response to {{U|Vanamonde93}}'s earlier query, I think omiting the field is not a good idea, because somebody will come and add it again. It is easy enough to find good sources that say that Godhra caused it. But the matter doesn't end there. -- ] (]) 21:00, 26 January 2023 (UTC) |
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::::Sorry, I still don't like it. The parameter has no meaning here. It is sociological nonsense; things don't have singular causes. The riots were described as ethnic cleansing; how are they ''caused'' by ethnic cleansing? Entire book chapters and journal articles have been written about the genesis of this violence. We can't summarize it in three words. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">] (])</span> 21:22, 26 January 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::Agreed ] (]) 11:02, 2 September 2023 (UTC) |
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::::Again, including some people's opinions as "caused by" sounds weird. That's not a fact; that's just an individual's opinion. Despite they were taken from a reliable source, they remain opinions of some individuals. Using them as a fact inside the infobox doesn't sound good. ] 13:55, 29 January 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::How are is the link to the Godhra incident any less one person's opinion? <span style="font-family:Papyrus">] (])</span> 16:41, 29 January 2023 (UTC) |
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== This entire article reads like a biased Hindu-phobic propaganda. == |
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== You gotta be kidding me == |
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- Reflect to Supreme Court of India's verdict on the case. List the names of Godhara Train Burning convicts. |
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How is that not undue weight? The opinion of one person which lays the blame for the carnage directly at the doors of the victims. The article is just getting worse with every edit. ] (]) 08:51, 23 June 2013 (UTC) |
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:who were the victins in godhra train burning? -] (]) 10:29, 23 June 2013 (UTC) |
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::Is this article about the train burning or the violence in Gujarat? ] (]) 10:39, 23 June 2013 (UTC) |
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:::The last time I read, Godhra was in Gujurat and train burning was part of Gujarat violence.The first section is about Godhra and rest are post Godhra.-] (]) 10:44, 23 June 2013 (UTC) |
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::::Again, is this article about the train burning or about the violence? The article already has as much an the train burning a it does about the violence. When a minority community is attacked and we have an article on it the focus of the article is meant to be on the people who got attacked. The violence against muslims section is shorter than that against Hindus, yet the vast majority of the violence was against muslims. Like I said, a fair few times now in fact, this article has massive NPOV issues, of course my tagging it is a waste of time as it is alwasy removed in violation of policy. ] (]) 10:52, 23 June 2013 (UTC) |
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:::::I did answer that, cannot help if you do not want to hear it. I will repeat it again, train burning is part of the 2002 violence. This article is a general one about the violence, we need to mention about the attacks on all the communities. Have you read the article? The section on violence against Muslims is bigger. Cannot help if you see NPOV issues when they are not present. -] (]) 11:27, 23 June 2013 (UTC) |
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::::::And there was me thinking this article was about the violence after the train burning, NPOV issues, RS say this was a preplanned attack, article does not say that. Other issues I pointed out above. And as for this "An interesting observation with regard to media handling of Gujarat riots is that at the time of riots, the media reports had been pointing out the steps taken by Modi administration to curb riots and how even the combined strength of Indian Army which Modi had requested with few hours of riots having broken, and State Police could not control the situation. However, later, the media editorials became critical of Modi, sidelining the facts they'd already published" sourced to a blog piece. The article is a joke. ] (]) 11:55, 23 June 2013 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment''': Darkness Shines, did you say to my question about 1946 Bihar Riots? Shifting goal posts? ] (]) 16:55, 23 June 2013 (UTC) |
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:What exactly has that to do with this article? ] (]) 05:34, 24 June 2013 (UTC) |
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::Of course, you can't comprehend! Wearing colored glasses do not help in creating or editing wiki articles. ] (]) 16:10, 24 June 2013 (UTC) |
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:::No seriously, what does the violence in 1946 in Bihar have to do with this article? ] (]) 16:17, 24 June 2013 (UTC) |
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::::Sorry. I didn't notice the talk page discussion. Blogs and opinion editorials don't count as reliable sources as we all should know. Plus, if you're going to argue that the media is confused (which it always is!) or duplicitous, you're going to need something solid to back that up. Like an academic source that analyzes media coverage of the incident rather than an opinion. --] <small>(])</small> 14:54, 25 June 2013 (UTC) |
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So I removed the OR sourced to an Op-Ed which I pointed out here days ago, and it was of course reverted? Explanations please. ] (]) 14:39, 25 June 2013 (UTC) |
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:Here where? §§]§§ {]/]} 14:48, 25 June 2013 (UTC) |
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::Read the section, the entire thing is quoted about 6 response up. ] (]) 14:58, 25 June 2013 (UTC) |
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- Remove ridiculous propaganda terms - "State Terrorism" and "Ethnic Cleansing" under "caused by" section. |
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== Straw poll on moving the article == |
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- Stop taking bribes from George Soros and China. |
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I am thinking of doing a RM to ] due to my recent research on this incident. "There is by now a broad consensus that the Gujarat violence was a form of ethnic cleansing, that in many ways it was premeditated, and that it was carried out with the complicity of the state government and officers of the law"<ref name="Nussbaum 2008">{{cite book|last=Craven Nussbaum|first=Martha|title=The Clash Within: Democracy, Religious Violence, and India's Future|year=2008|publisher=Harvard University Press|isbn=978-0674030596|pages=50-51}}</ref> Before I do I would like to discuss the issue with those involved in editing the page. ] (]) 12:58, 3 July 2013 (UTC) |
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- Also integrity of editors responsible to contribute to the biased changes to the article in past requires thorough investigation. It's nothing short of a shameless act of information terrorism. ] (]) 11:15, 2 September 2023 (UTC) |
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:Looks like attacks on Hindus, the ], and the Akshardham Temple Attack (all of which figure in 2002 Gujarat violence) and clearly factually disprove your research arent being considered? Obvious '''oppose'''.]<sup>]</sup> 16:19, 3 July 2013 (UTC) |
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:'''Oppose'''. Again? After you failed with "pogrom", now this? What about the Hindus, who accounted for 25% of those who were killed during the rioting? ] (]) 16:21, 3 July 2013 (UTC) |
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::This article is about the events after Godhra, all sources say this violence was an attack on the Muslim community, so how is my research factually disproved? Please note the academic source which says there is a consensus that these attacks were premeditated. If you do not come with sources of comparable academic quality to refute this then I will initiate an RM. ] (]) 16:26, 3 July 2013 (UTC) |
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::'''Q''': As I have asked above, how do you account for the Anti-Hindu violence unleashed by the Muslims post Godhra? You are always free to go ahead with your requested move at any point of time, but there also, will have to justify this. ] (]) 16:32, 3 July 2013 (UTC) |
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:::There was no "Anti-Hindu violence unleashed by the Muslims" some were killed in self defense during their attacks on Muslims, some were killed by the police, the simple fact is that this was an orchestrated, sustained attack on a minority community. The article title needs to reflect the consensus of sources and what the academic sources say about the matter. ] (]) 16:44, 3 July 2013 (UTC) |
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::::Ohh! So you deny the authenticity of the news reports published in reliable sources? ] (]) 16:54, 3 July 2013 (UTC) |
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:::::Please provide an academic source which says there was an "Anti-Hindu violence unleashed by the Muslims" ] (]) 16:57, 3 July 2013 (UTC) |
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::::::If you think that Indian Express and India Today are not reliable, please move to the concerned noticeboard. ] (]) 16:59, 3 July 2013 (UTC) |
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:::::::Compared to academic sources, no. But feel free to provide the links. ] (]) 17:11, 3 July 2013 (UTC) |
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* '''Comment''' - The anti-Muslim violence/pogrom in Gujarat in 2002 is treated as a separate topic in its own right in academic sources already discussed at length on this talk page. It is also true that there were incidents that could not be characterised as "Anti-Muslim violence" that occurred in 2002 in Gujarat. E.g. the Godhra train incident and retaliatory acts by Muslims during and after the anti-Muslim pogrom. If the ] warrants its own article and is also summarised here, the anti-Muslim Pogrom/violence certainly does, based on widespread academic coverage per the sources discussed in various threads on this talk page. One possible solution could be to create an article covering the Anti-Muslim violence/pogrom in Gujurat, 2002, which could be linked and summarised here in the same way the Gujarat train burning article is linked and summarised here. This article would remain a collection of all the incidents in Gujarat in 2002, with the topics whose coverage in RS (e.g. Godhra train incident, anti-Muslim violence) warrants separate articles being linked and summarised, as per ] is currently treated in this article. ] (]) 17:04, 3 July 2013 (UTC) |
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: So by your way we also have to create article on ]. <span style="border:2px solid #000;background:#000">]]</span> 17:09, 3 July 2013 (UTC) |
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::Good idea, I will retitle draft and move it to mainspace. ] (]) 17:11, 3 July 2013 (UTC) |
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::rSolomon7968 My impression of the sources is that it would not be warranted, but I am open to persuasion if editors are able to produce a similar quality, quantity and depth of academic coverage that has been shown on this talk page for the topic of anti-Mulsim violence. ] (]) 17:17, 3 July 2013 (UTC) |
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::"I focus on the coverage of the political violence in the western Indian state of Gujarat in the spring of 2002 - which was widely seen as a pogrom against Muslims" ''Conflict, Terrorism And the Media in Asia'' p82 ] (]) 19:00, 3 July 2013 (UTC) |
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:::Do any of your *academic sources give examples of violence before Godhra? <span style="border:2px solid #000;background:#000">]]</span> 23:25, 3 July 2013 (UTC) |
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::::Any discussion of violence before Godhra would belong on the talk pages of articles on those subjects, not here. ] (]) 23:35, 3 July 2013 (UTC) |
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:::::So since all of your *academic sources only give examples of violence after Godhra I propose the naming of your *future article be ]. <span style="border:2px solid #000;background:#000">]]</span> 23:42, 3 July 2013 (UTC) |
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::::::I come with the best sources per Misplaced Pages policy, you come with? ] (]) 23:53, 3 July 2013 (UTC) |
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:::::::Can't understand the controversy. I just proposed the name of your *future article and you agreed to what I asked. <span style="border:2px solid #000;background:#000">]]</span> 23:58, 3 July 2013 (UTC) |
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== Narendra Modi about irresponsible journalism by NDTV == |
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Still waiting on the sources which describe the "Anti-Hindu violence unleashed by the Muslims". ] (]) 14:00, 4 July 2013 (UTC) |
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:Is that so ]? Doesn't that mean that you haven't read the very article which you would like to move? Huh? ] (]) 15:15, 4 July 2013 (UTC) |
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::Actually I have, other than HRW, who BTW say the attacks on Hindus were retaliatory the section has nothing. In fact what I have in userspace has more information. So, you got the sources which describe the "Anti-Hindu violence unleashed by the Muslims", or not? ] (]) 15:21, 4 July 2013 (UTC) |
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:::Do you mean to say that '''"10,000"''' Hindus walked out of their homes to prove something to people like you? ] (]) 15:37, 4 July 2013 (UTC) |
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:::And, what does '''"retaliatory"''' mean? By many a persons' logic, the entire Gujarat episode was a '''"retaliatory"''' measure of Godhra. Don't come up with circular arguments! ] (]) 15:39, 4 July 2013 (UTC) |
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::::Call me old fashioned but if a mob were to burn my home to the ground, rape my wife and children and then burn them to death, I figure I would seek retribution. That is what "retaliatory" means. Muslims were being systematically targeted and murdered, so they took retaliatory action. And 10000 displaced Hindus were a result not of "Anti-Hindu violence unleashed by the Muslims" as you claim, but as a result of either retaliatory attacks (which according to the sources were few) or fires which had gotten out of control, fires started by the Hindu attackers. Still waiting on your sources for your claim of "Anti-Hindu violence unleashed by the Muslims" BTW ] (]) 15:47, 4 July 2013 (UTC) |
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:::::That argument, I guess, puts an end to all the claims to pogroms and all. The entire "Anti-Muslim violence" was unleashed as the Hindus saw their brethren being roasted. Per your argument only! Ohh, and for the sources, refer to the violence against the Hindus section in the article, if you have chosen to overlook it. ] (]) 15:54, 4 July 2013 (UTC) |
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::::::I already told you that the only source in that section is from HRW, the attacks by Muslims on Hindus are minimal. You have yet to provide a single source which refutes the sources I have given here, do you have the sources to support your contention of an "Anti-Hindu violence unleashed by the Muslims" or not? If you do not have the sources just say so. ] (]) 15:58, 4 July 2013 (UTC) |
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:::::::And, as I already pointed out, if you chose to push only your own POV and overlook others, just say so! Btw, that section also has references from Indian Today and Indian Express. ] (]) 16:02, 4 July 2013 (UTC) |
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::::::::Erm, not a single source then for your claim of "Anti-Hindu violence unleashed by the Muslims" then. As I thought it would be. As for the other sources, pure junk. an interview, should not even be used as a source. , the same, neither of these sources should have any weight and are probably PRIMARY sources as they are interviews. And as for it is already quoted in the HRW report, so circular citations there. So in total that section has one decent source, HRW. Now where are your academic sources which refute the ones presented here. ] (]) 16:35, 4 July 2013 (UTC) |
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:::::::::So, sources do not carry any weight when they describe anything which is not to your liking? How else, do you justify your above comment on the Indian Express piece? Btw, where did I say that "Anti-Muslim violence" did not take place? I have said, and still do say, that anti-Hindu violence also took place, which you refute! ] (]) 16:55, 4 July 2013 (UTC) |
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::::::::::No, here is what you said "Anti-Hindu violence unleashed by the Muslims". I have asked you numerous times for sources to support this, you have failed to deliver. And I just checked WP:PRIMARY, those sources which are interviews, fail it, as such I will be removing them. Now, supply the sources, academic ones, which refute the entire purpose of this section, which was to discuss a page move. ] (]) 17:03, 4 July 2013 (UTC) |
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:Nopes. Those are NOT primary sources. You may read those again. I will, although, wait for another uninvolved editor to revert your edits. And, talking about your proposal to move the article, it seems that '''only you''' think/believe the whole unfortunate episode to be a one sided affair. Why don't '''you provide a reliable source''' which says that there were '''no attacks on Hindus''' during the period? ] (]) 17:21, 4 July 2013 (UTC) |
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::From ] "Primary sources are original materials that are close to an event, and are often accounts written by people who are directly involved." So yes, interviews are primary sources. Regarding your other point, I have already stated there were attacks on Hindus, however they were few and far between and were in retaliation for the systematic slaughter being visited upon them. All the sources, and I mean all of them, say these events were an attack on the Muslim community, you have failed to provide a single source to refute that. Unless you do I see no point in further debate, as all you have provided is empty rhetoric. ] (]) 17:29, 4 July 2013 (UTC) |
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] in an informal interview , told told journalist Madhu K that “If you see the data you will see that within 72 hours we had put down the riots and brought the situation under control. But these TV channels kept on playing up the same incidents over and over again" |
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== POV pushing by User:Darkness Shines == |
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Modi then further talks about another incident of reporting by journalist ]. “In a second incident in Anjar, she played up the news that a Hanuman mandir had been broken and vandalised. I told her, “What are you up to? You are in Kutch which is a border district. There you are showing the attack and destruction of a temple. Do you realise the implications of broadcasting such news? We haven’t yet recovered from the earthquake. Have you actually done proper investigation into the riots? Why are you lighting fires for us? Your news takes a few minutes to broadcast that such and such place is unprotected or a mandir has been vandalized. But it takes for me a few hours to move the police from one disturbed location to another since these incidents are breaking out in the most unexpected places.” |
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I have noticed that ] is replacing whole article with his POV article created in his user space. He is giving ] weight to some sources and trying to project that it is significant view of all sources. User should stop pushing his POV in article and self-revert all his today's edits. ] (]) 17:49, 5 July 2013 (UTC) |
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:Excuse me? I have spent six days gathering sources and reading up on this subject, I am removing newspaper sources from 2002. thats right we have sources in this article from 2002, and am replacing them with academic sources. Per the obvious consensus in the RFC above, and policy, we ought to be using these sources. I have merged unnecessary sections, formatted references, and worked damn hard on the content. I will not revert all that work just because you think I am pushing a POV, I am following policy, NPOV. ] (]) 17:56, 5 July 2013 (UTC) |
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:One other thing, I cannot, and nor can anyone else wholesale revert all my edits, I removed not only PRIMARY sources, I removed some per ] So if you want to revert you will have to do it a bit at a time and ensure you do not reinsert those BLP violations. ] (]) 17:59, 5 July 2013 (UTC) |
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Modi further said that when he inquired about the said incident, the administration found out that it was a small, insignificant structure under a tree which had been damaged a little bit by some crazy individual. “But ] presented it as an attack on a Hanuman mandir. When the fires were raging these journalists were pouring fuel on those fires,” he said. Subsequently, the channel was banned temporarily from broadcasting news in Gujarat as it would only lead to flaring up of communal tension. Modi had called up ] and said, “I will have to put a temporary ban on your channel if you continue with the provocative coverage. There is a well-established regulation that media should not name communities during communal riots nor identify a damaged placed as a mandir or masjid. Why are you violating that code and well set protocol about not naming communities or identifying places, of worship? You are going against established norms.”<ref>{{Cite web |title=NDTV Role in Adding Fuel to the Fire During 2002 Riots |url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpsfA3FRnwo&t=119s}}</ref> |
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The article was totally inconsistent with the academic scholarship on the topic on which it should be based. Unfortunately I don't have the time to go through all the edits and read all the sources, but from what I have looked at and what has been discussed on talk DS is moving the article in the direction of the academic scholarship on the topic. In all this long list of discussions on this talk page I haven't seen a single editor cite a serious academic source to support their criticism of DS work. |
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] (]) 14:36, 18 September 2024 (UTC) |
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== Rajdeep Sardasai on modi == |
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As I have said previously to make an ] claim you need to cite a body of academic scholarship that would contradict or dispute the sources that DS is citing. Just claiming undue with no evidence is not even worthy of a response. ] (]) 19:10, 5 July 2013 (UTC) |
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:@] Don't response then. Nobody is asking your response. No where in wikipedia there is any guidelines which states that we have to '''only''' use academic sources. <span style="border:2px solid #000;background:#000">]]</span> 08:51, 6 July 2013 (UTC) |
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::WP:RS "Where available, academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources, such as in history, medicine, and science." ] (]) 09:02, 6 July 2013 (UTC) |
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::: This is not article on ] to give importance to academic sources. Professors do not roam on streets during voilence. Courts, journalists and witnesses know better about such situation. Common people switch on TV or read newspapers for info about such situation. They don't buy such academic crap which make up stories long after the incident. Also it is well-known fact that conspiracy theorists tends to screw straight forward cases and publish books to earn money. Anybody can see that ] article is using media sources. Misplaced Pages community is not using biased academic crap to support contents. Again, this is not article about ]. So pls do not try to impress with 'academic sources' words. Pls self-revert yourself. Thank you. ] (]) 20:07, 5 July 2013 (UTC) |
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::::Are you seriously saying that the best sources per Misplaced Pages policy are "academic crap" and that newspaper reports from the period are in fact better sources? Do me a favour and go say that on the reliable sources noticeboard. And I am quite sure I already told you why a blanket revert cannot be done. ] (]) 20:11, 5 July 2013 (UTC) |
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::::BTW, Parvis Ghassem-Fachand, who wrote ''Pogrom in Gujarat: Hindu Nationalism and Anti-Muslim Violence in India'' Princeton University Press, he was there. Read his book, it is very good. ] (]) 20:32, 5 July 2013 (UTC) |
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:::::We need scientists or professors to explain complicated science theories. We don't need them to explain why two persons on the corner of streets were fighting. Almost all the time some author publish book to tell something which is not covered by media significantly. If book covers what is already in media, then nobody will buy it. Their aim is always to create sensation to sell their books. Not every news source is reliable, likewise not every professor is reliable. Which media sources are reliable that is known, but which professors/book authors are reliable that's not known. That's the reason articles like ] do not use so called 'academic sources'. Your attempt to screw facts by discarding reputed media sources and picking up biased 'academic' crap will not succeed. Thank you. ] (]) 22:13, 5 July 2013 (UTC) |
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::::::Read BLPPRIMARY before you revert again. ] (]) 08:28, 6 July 2013 (UTC) |
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In your userspace you have evidence presented by one side of a court case, even though most of the court cases have already been completed. Misplaced Pages should not be standing with the prosecution or defense in a trial. Also statements like "Prasun Sonwalkar believes the media can play an important role in highlighting acts of action, or inaction and abuses of power" are obviously irrelevant to the article. ] ] 16:02, 6 July 2013 (UTC) |
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:What I have been working on is far from complete, I have requested some journal sources and am waiting on them, both the trial and aftermath sections are very very far from completion. And media reactions to the events obviously have a bearing on the article. ] (]) 16:08, 6 July 2013 (UTC) |
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::Okay, but I object to any attempt at "trial by Misplaced Pages". Adding pre-2012 accusations that the riots were orchestrated, despite the 2012 ruling that they weren't, is worse than using 2002 newspaper sources if they haven't been contradicted by later sources. That is not to say that there is no possibility of corruption in a self-appointed Indian government investigation. But it means a bigger claim is being made and an extra burden should be placed on books such as ''Internally Displaced People: A Global Survey'' or ''The Geography of Genocide'' which clearly are not about the violence in particular. ] ] 16:14, 6 July 2013 (UTC) |
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:::The court judgement is irrelevant per our policies. Sources from 2013 still say it was deliberate, policy dictates so do we per NPOV, you will note I hope that in the lede I had written that Modi was blamed for the violence, and directly after added that he was cleared, no doubt that source is fine for the second bit </sarc>. How do you conclude that books which deal in violence ''The Geography of Genocide'' for instance is not about violence? ] (]) 16:32, 6 July 2013 (UTC) |
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:::As for the possibility of corruption, ] (]) 17:04, 6 July 2013 (UTC) |
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Former NDTV employee, ] said that he personally believed that Modi was not responsible for the 2002 riots that followed after Godhra massacre. |
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== Template == |
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“It is unfair of us to say that Mr Modi or anyone was responsible for the riots. He did not ask or incite violence,” said Rajdeep Sardesai,Responding to a question by journalist ], on whether Narendra Modi the then Chief Minister of Gujarat in 2002 was in any way responsible for the incident,<ref>{{Cite web |title=Rajdeep Sardesai on how TV journalism failed the Godhra riots |url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S52spI8P72g}}</ref> ] (]) 14:38, 18 September 2024 (UTC) |
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{{edit protected|answered=no}} |
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] should be added on the page. §§]§§ {]/]} 13:13, 6 July 2013 (UTC) |
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==Edit request on 6 July 2013== |
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{{edit protected|answered=no}} |
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Quote from ]: {{quote|Since protecting the most current version sometimes rewards edit warring by establishing a contentious revision, administrators may also revert to an old version of the page predating the edit war if such a clear point exists.}} User:Darkness Shines started inserting his POV contents from edit on 3 July. During 29 June to 3 July there is only 1 edit and that too non-controversial as you can see it . So "clear point predating the edit war" exists. Hence I request Admins to restore version. Thank you. ] (]) 17:10, 6 July 2013 (UTC) |
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:I strongly object to restoration of a version you edit warred to keep. ] (]) 17:37, 6 July 2013 (UTC) |
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::I have not made even a single edit on this article before today. I am requesting Admins to restore fairly stable version written by community over 10 years. You pushed your massive POV contents and then article is protected. This protection is rewarding your POV version and that's unfair. ] (]) 17:51, 6 July 2013 (UTC) |
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:::Except it was not my revert which put it in this version was it, you reverted another editor twice and he reverted you. And I can tell you right now that, that mess is not "my version" it is now a mish mash of the old stuff and my fixes. ] (]) 17:54, 6 July 2013 (UTC) |
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::::That's why fairly stable version should be restored. That User:The Rahul Jain edits only Jainism articles. I think he jumped in here only to oppose me because of our disputes elsewhere and he mindlessly gathered your stuff and inserted in the article. ] (]) 18:58, 6 July 2013 (UTC) |
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:::::By stable version you mean the one you edit warred to keep right? The one which violates ], which I told you about above, and violates ], which I also told you about above, yet you still edit warred to your preferred version because, in your words the academic sources used are "biased 'academic' crap" because they "make up stories long after the incident" as it is a "well-known fact that conspiracy theorists tends to screw straight forward cases and publish books to earn money". Of course I am the POV pusher, not you at all. ] (]) 19:06, 6 July 2013 (UTC) |
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::::::You are using diversion tactits to divert attention of Admins. Citing some possible minor problem in the article to keep your massive POV contents. ] (]) 19:54, 6 July 2013 (UTC) |
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:::::::You have yet to explain anywhere, let alone on this talkpage what is not neutral about the edits I did, and there are far more than minor problems in an article where the articles owners point blank refuse to discuss, call the best sources crap, and insist that any editor who disagrees with them is a POV pusher. ] (]) 20:04, 6 July 2013 (UTC) |
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- Reflect to Supreme Court of India's verdict on the case. List the names of Godhara Train Burning convicts.
- Remove ridiculous propaganda terms - "State Terrorism" and "Ethnic Cleansing" under "caused by" section.
- Stop taking bribes from George Soros and China.
- Also integrity of editors responsible to contribute to the biased changes to the article in past requires thorough investigation. It's nothing short of a shameless act of information terrorism. Chinmay nayak23 (talk) 11:15, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
Modi further said that when he inquired about the said incident, the administration found out that it was a small, insignificant structure under a tree which had been damaged a little bit by some crazy individual. “But NDTV presented it as an attack on a Hanuman mandir. When the fires were raging these journalists were pouring fuel on those fires,” he said. Subsequently, the channel was banned temporarily from broadcasting news in Gujarat as it would only lead to flaring up of communal tension. Modi had called up Rajdeep Sardesai and said, “I will have to put a temporary ban on your channel if you continue with the provocative coverage. There is a well-established regulation that media should not name communities during communal riots nor identify a damaged placed as a mandir or masjid. Why are you violating that code and well set protocol about not naming communities or identifying places, of worship? You are going against established norms.”
“It is unfair of us to say that Mr Modi or anyone was responsible for the riots. He did not ask or incite violence,” said Rajdeep Sardesai,Responding to a question by journalist Manu Joseph, on whether Narendra Modi the then Chief Minister of Gujarat in 2002 was in any way responsible for the incident, Aravind Sivaprasad (talk) 14:38, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
