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Revision as of 17:33, 25 September 2013 editDoncram (talk | contribs)203,830 edits →Doncram: request to consider comment← Previous edit Latest revision as of 03:34, 9 January 2025 edit undoSeraphimblade (talk | contribs)Edit filter managers, Administrators46,240 edits →PerspicazHistorian: Closing 
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==PerspicazHistorian==
== Doncram ==
{{hat|] is indefinitely topic-banned from any edits relating to the ] and related areas, broadly construed, aside from the ]. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 17:00, 25 September 2013 (UTC) }} {{hat|{{u|PerspicazHistorian}} is blocked indefinitely from mainspace. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 03:34, 9 January 2025 (UTC) }}
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br>Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> <small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small>


===Request concerning Doncram=== ===Request concerning PerspicazHistorian===
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : ] (]) 02:51, 17 September 2013 (UTC) ; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|NXcrypto}} 15:53, 19 December 2024 (UTC)


; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Doncram}} ; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|PerspicazHistorian}}<p>{{ds/log|PerspicazHistorian}}</p>


<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. --->
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ]

;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ]
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> <!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced --->


; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : ; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it :
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. --> <!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as ], or groundless or ] complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.-->
# - removed "discrimination" sidebar from the page of ] (fascist ideology) even though the sidebar was inserted inside a section, not even the lead.
In the last 24 hours or so, Doncram has breached normal standards of behavior and decorum through personal attacks on multiple other editors, as well as edit warring over whether his new article creations are stubs or start-class. This behavior has caused real damage, including bot operator's decision not to continue work on a bot request related to the WikiProject's actions to solve the issue that was "remanded to the community" in ]:
# at ] over article rating. # - tag bombed the highly vetted ] article without any discussion or reason
# - attributing castes to people withhout any sources
#Revert war over that rating (Doncram violates 3RR, but he wasn't warned): , , , , , , , ,
# - edit warring to impose the above edits after getting
# - In this NRHP WikiProject talk page discussion of whether the Eads gymnasium article is a stub or a start, Doncram lashes out with personal attacks against Orlady (moi) and ], and apparently accuses ] of being my clone (in "don't egg on another clone like you did egg on S. and also egg on P., imho"). Both Coal town guy and ] announce their intention to stay away from the Wikiproject.
# - just like above, but this time he also added unreliable sources
# - Doncram entered discussion (where he had not been previously involved} at ] regarding Tony's accusations of racism against other editors, and gave Tony the potentially fan-flaming advice that "it seems reasonable ... to begin to assume something awful like racial discrimination going on." Also said ] should "back the hell off".
# of ] from plan to run an "NRIS-only" bot to flag minimally sourced stubs for the NRHP Wikiproject, apparently responding to the displays at Eads Gymnasium and the Wikiproject talkpage. # - still edit warring and using edit summaries instead of talk page for conversation
# - filed an outrageous report on WP:ANI without notifying any editors. This report was closed by Bbb23 as "{{tq|This is nothing but a malplaced, frivolous personal attack by the OP.}}"
# in the same style he employed in numerous similar personal attacks prior to the Arbcom case.

:
; Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (not required in this instance):
<!-- Many arbitration remedies require a prior warning before sanctions may be imposed. Link to the warning here. -->
#Several admonishments by various users are included on the pages linked above. Also see


; Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any :
<!-- To the extent it may be relevant, link to previous sanctions such as blocks or topic bans.-->
*Already 2 blocks in last 4 months for edit warring.
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]):
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : ; Additional comments by editor filing complaint :
<!-- Add any further comment here -->
I didn't want to come here. I was looking around to find someone Doncram respects who is currently active here to ask them to give him some "word to the wise" advice when I saw the evidence of the damage his recent behavior has done to the NRHP Wikiproject. After seeing that, I concluded that this behavior warrants a more vigorous response than mere advice. -- Orlady (talk) 02:51, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


I do not see any positive signs that this editor will ever improve. So far he has only regressed. ] <small><small>]</small></small> 15:53, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
I am disappointed by Doncram's initial statement (which I acknowledge is likely to be revised or supplemented). The warring over whether an article is a stub or a start-class, together with Doncram's unilateral effort to prevent the wikiproject from having assessment criteria or tagging articles with sourcing issues, has been disruptive and is a concern. However, that pettiness is hardly the only issue here. ] (]) 17:06, 17 September 2013 (UTC)]


:While going through this report, PerspicazHistorian has made another highly problematic edit by edit warring and misrepresenting the sources to label the organisation as "terrorist". This primary source only provides a list of organisations termed by the Indian government as "terrorist" contrary to ]. ] <small><small>]</small></small> 03:12, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
Doncram's persistence in personalizing content discussions -- a pattern I've seen for more than 5 years -- is poisonous. The personal attacks -- the assertions that other users have "weird" or racist motivations, the allegations that other users are "egging on other editors" for the purpose of "construct contention" or "harass" Doncram -- are unacceptable and need to stop. His statement here and his recent actions on talk pages suggest to me that he not only doesn't recognize that his "when faced with adversity, assume bad faith" attitude is a problem, but that he thinks it's absolutely the right filter for interpreting other users' behavior. --] (]) 16:52, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


*PerspicazHistorian is still using sources (see ]) and wishing to move ] to ] which is a blatant POV. ] <small><small>]</small></small> 04:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
@The Devil's Advocate: I'm not aware of any restriction against my participating in RM discussions that were highlighted on a noticeboard that I have watchlisted, such as or in visiting (and fixing problems I see) at articles identified in an active Wikiproject discussion like . And after some other very recent discussions on article ratings with Coal town guy ( ), it didn't even occur to me that his query on the NRHP talk page might be related to an article by Doncram. --] (]) 01:16, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested :
:<small>Note: User:Orlady and User:The Devil's Advocate have had little or no interaction outside of this Arbcom case. The only other identifiable interaction was at ] on 21 February 2013. --] (]) 16:05, 18 September 2013 (UTC)</small>
<!-- Please notify the user against whom you request enforcement of the request (you may use {{subst:AE-notice|thread name}}), and then replace this comment with a diff of the notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise. -->


<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. --->
I'm sorry to see that Doncram has not come back to edit his statement here. This may mean that he decided that he needed a break from Misplaced Pages to clear his head. However, if that's what he's doing, it probably would be in his interest to explain himself here. --] (]) 15:35, 24 September 2013 (UTC)


===Discussion concerning PerspicazHistorian ===
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested :
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small>


====Statement by PerspicazHistorian ====
<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. --->
*By far I am also concerned how my edits were forcefully reverted without a proper reason despite providing enough references. Please check how I am getting attacked by them on ] Page.
I didn't know about the three-revert-rule before ] told me about this: ].
Please grant me one more chance, I will make sure not to edit war.<br>
*In the below statement by LukeEmily, As a reply I just want to say that I was just making obvious edit on ] by adding a list of notable people with proper references. And according to ] it is clearly said: "Edits from a slanted point of view, general insertion or removal of material, or other good-faith changes are not considered vandalism." It was a good faith edit but others reverted it. I accept my mistake of not raising it on talk page as a part of ].<br>
*As a clarification to my edit on ], it can be clearly seen that I provided enough reference to prove its a terrorist organisation as seen in this . I don't know why is there a discussion to this obvious edit? Admins please correct me if I am wrong.
:@], Yes I read about 1RR and 0RR revert rules in ]. I now understand the importance of raising the topic on talk page whenever a consensus is needed. Thank You ! ] (]) 07:16, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::Yes, I will commit to that. ] (]) 13:10, 20 December 2024 (UTC) <small>Moved comment to own section. Please comment, including replies, only in this section. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 13:19, 20 December 2024 (UTC) </small>
:At that time I was new to how AFD discussions worked. Later on when ] was marked for deletion, I respected the consensus by not interfering in it. The article was later deleted. ] (]) 11:54, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
*Hi @] , I just checked your user page. You have 16 years (I am 19) of experience on wiki, you must be right about me. I agree that my start on Misplaced Pages has been horrible, but I am learning a lot from you all. I promise that I will do better, get more neutral here and contribute to the platform to my best. Please don't block me.
::''<small>P.S.- I don't know If I will be blocked or what , according to this enforcement rules, I just want to personally wish good luck to you for your ongoing cancer treatments, You will surely win this battle of Life. Regards.</small>'' ] (]) 12:23, 21 December 2024 (UTC)<small>Moved comment to own section. Please comment, including replies, only in this section.] (]) 15:30, 24 December 2024 (UTC)</small>


*1) I just asked an user @] if the page move is possible. What's wrong with it? I still have not considered putting a move request on talk page of article.
===Discussion concerning Doncram===
:2) Many of other sources are not raj era. Moreover I myself have deleted the content way before you pointing this out. Thank You ! ] (]) 06:29, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. <br>Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small>
::even @] is seen engaged in edit wars before on contentious Indian topics. ] (]) 06:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
====Statement by Doncram====
:::as mentioned by @] before, <sub>Please discuss at talk, not here; we don't deal with content here</sub>. You can discuss content related topics on talk pages of articles rather than personally targeting a user here in enforcement. ] (]) 06:42, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
I have been notified and will respond later. However real life obligations intervene, with deadlines that I must meet through Thursday, and I cannot respond fully for a few days. I don't think there is anything extremely urgent that must be addressed here, and I won't be editing elsewhere.
::::@] I once filed a to find it @] is a sock (out of a misunderstanding, as all were teamed up similarly on various pages). I think he felt it as a personal attack by me and filed this request for enforcement. Please interfere. ] (]) 06:47, 29 December 2024 (UTC) <small>moving to correct section ] (]) 13:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)</small>


*Hi @] @], In my defense I just want to say that
Extremely briefly, though: it seems inappropriate for editors from one wikiproject, who are in the process of redefining what a Start rating means for their wikiproject, to change other Wikiproject's ratings, and I think especially not to change a named AFC editor's rating. I opened discussion about this at a Talk page and discussed this clearly, and I reverted changes of the AFC editor's AFC rating, but did not revert the NRHP wikiproject rating. Hasteur noted, I think directed at CTG changing the rating: " Please for the love of DIETY do not edit war over the evaluation that a member of the AfC project gave to a page. If you disagree with the rating given on behalf of your project, feel free to change it, but each project has it's own rubric over what constitutes the various classes." For my objecting to an editor changing the AFC editor's rating (which seems like editing the AFC editor's Talk page comments to say something different than what the AFC editor said), an Arbitration Enforcement?
:1)Yes I usually edit on RSS related topics, but to ensure a democratic view is maintained as many socks try to disrupt such articles. Even on ] page, I just edited on request of talk page and added a graph. I don't think its a POV push.
:2) My main interest in editing is ] and ] topics.
:3)There have been certain cases in past where I was blocked but if studied carefully they were result of me edit warring with socks(although, through guidance of various experienced editors and admins I learnt a SPI should be filed first). I have learnt a lot in my journey and there have been nearly zero case of me of edit warring this month.
:Please do not block me. ] (]) 14:09, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
*@] I beg apologies for the inconvenience caused, thanks for correcting me. I will now reply in my own statement section. @] I am a quick learner and professionally competent to edit in this encyclopedic space. Please consider reviewing this enforcement if its an counter-attack on me as mentioned in my previous replies. You all are experienced editors and I have good faith in your decision-making capability.] (]) 08:27, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
*@]@] I have edited content marked as "original research" and "mess" by you, I am ready to help removing any content that might be considered "poorly sourced" by the community. Please don't block me.] (]) 08:27, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
*@] This enforcement started for edit-warring and now I feel its more concerned to my edited content(which I agree to cooperate and change wherever needed). After learning about edit wars, there has been no instance of me edit-warring, Please consider my request.--] (]) 08:27, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
*:@] I am not a slow learner, I understand the concerns of all admins here. I will try my best to add only reliable sources, and discuss content in all talk pages, as I already mentioned ]. ] (]) 12:55, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
*::@]@] I think admins should focus more on encouraging editors when they do good and correct when mistaken. I have made many edits, added many citations and created much articles which use fine citations. The enforcement started out of retaliation by nxcrypto, now moving towards banning me anyways. I started editing out of passion, and doing it here on wiki unlike those who come here just for pov pushes and disrupt article space(talking about socks and vandalizers on contentious Indian topics).
*::The article ] doesn't only has issue on citations, but the whole article is copypasted from the citations I added. I just wanted to point that out. Remaining about ], I am currently pursuing Btech in cs from IIT delhi, idt I am a slow learner by any means. Still, happy new year to all ! ] (]) 14:01, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::@] You mean to say, "<sub>The ''prasada'' is to be consumed by attendees as a holy offering. The offerings may include cooked food, ] and confectionery sweets. Vegetarian food is usually offered and later distributed to the devotees who are present in the ]. Sometimes this vegetarian offering will exclude prohibited items such as garlic, onion, mushroom, etc. "</sub> is not copy pasted by website? Is this also a wiki mirror website? How would you feel if I doubt your competence now? ] (]) 14:47, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::@ ] I just asked others to share their opinion in the enforcement. With all due respect, I don't think its wrong in any sense. ] (]) 15:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
*:::::To all the admins involved here,
*:::::* I agree to keep learning and apologize if my previous edits/replies have annoyed the admins.
*:::::* I have not edit warred since a month and please see it as my willingness to keep learning and getting better.
*:::::*Please give me a chance, I understand concern of you all and respect your opinion in the matter. But please don't block me from editing from main article space. I promise that I will abide by all the rules and will learn from other editors.
*:::::] (]) 15:22, 8 January 2025 (UTC)


====Statement by LukeEmily====
Briefly about ], contrary to Orlady and Crisco 1492's statements, I have previously advised/commented to TTT in the FourAward discussion (i believe at TTT's Talk and at one or more ANIs and at wt:fouraward). And I absolutely do not and did not condone accusations of racism. The assertions regarding that, here are out of context and misleading. I can comment more about that later, if necessary, but it seems unfortunate to drag TTT and Crisco and others into the NRHP topic area, it really seems unrelated.
PerspicazHistorian also violated ] by engaging in an edit war with {{u|Ratnahastin}} who reverted his edits and restored an article to a stable version by admin. Also, I want to assume good faith but it is surprising that PerspicazHistorian claims that he did not know the three revert rule given that he has more than 800 edits.] (])


====Statement by Doug Weller====
About other issues raised I will comment later. --]]] 06:53, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
I'm involved so just commenting. I don't think this editor is competent. I had to give them a community sanction caste warning as they were making a mess of castes. See this earlier version of their talk page.]https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:PerspicazHistorian&oldid=1262289249] and ]'s comment that "It was very unwise of you to keep moving ] to article space when it has not passed review. As a direct result of your actions, a deletion discussion is taking place, and when this is complete and the article is deleted, you will be prevented from recreating it. ] (]) 14:44, 4 December 2024 (UTC)" There have also been copyright issues. I strongly support a topic ban. ] ] 11:00, 21 December 2024 (UTC)


:::I won't be involved in the decision. No more treatments for me, just coast until... ] ] 12:50, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:Thanks for not closing this too quickly. The main threat in discussion below is to ban me from editing in NRHP areas (which I would be extremely sad to see, and believe is not at all justified). I am busy in real life and there is not urgency to close this, as I am not editing in mainspace and will return to comment more.


====Statement by Toddy1====
:I do resent editor Orlady's persistent pressure over many years, including this AE proceeding and a recent ANI proceeding. I do personally experience Orlady's following me to mainspace pages and commenting directly after me at wt:NRHP and elsewhere, and these AN noticeboard as bullying / wikihounding / wiki-harassment / harassment -- define it as you wish. TheDevilsAdvocate's comments are on point. I thought Orlady recognized, during the Arbitration, that I really do experience her following me in this way. And she was advised not to by a couple of editors during the Arbitration, and she did not for a while, but she has resumed. I really cannot understand a person persisting with something they know is personally directed and experienced as hurtful. Orlady knows that I would regret being banned from NRHP, where I have been a fundamental builder of supporting structures (lists, help/info pages, disambiguation) and direct contributor of thousands of good references to NRHP documents and other sources in mainspace articles. I think there is broader issue of what Misplaced Pages stands for, does it stand for protecting productive contributors or does it stand more for allowing an infinite amount of long-running harassment type activities against them. I perceive Orlady as biased, clearly, in having interest to prove that her following and criticism is justified. And I think she is reaching, again, here, with kicking up confusion and manufacturing contention that tends to suggest to others that "something must be done" against her target, justifying her targeting. Is there no limit? What does it take to get someone to stop. Why not, at some point upon request by a person experiencing another as a harasser, cannot some other mechanism -- some other designated party be appointed, or just something. This is a flaw in Misplaced Pages, that there is no mechanism to stop infinite, deep incivility / vendetta-type behavior, if that behavior is just a bit disguised and couched differently. Upon request, why allow the pattern to continue?
This is another editor who appears to have pro-] (RSS) and pro-] (BJP) views. I dislike those views, but find it rather alarming that Misplaced Pages should seek to censor those views, but not the views of the political opponents. Imagine the outrage if we sought to topic-ban anyone who expressed pro-] views, but allowed ] to say whatever they liked.


A lot of pro-RSS/BJP editors turn out to be sock-puppets, so please can we do a checkuser on this account. And to be even-handed, why not checkuser NXcrypto too.
:Here, Orlady raises as an issue disagreement at a Talk page (about whether non-AFC editors should change AFC editor ratings), as contention. It is highly appropriate to discuss disagreement at a Talk page. It happens that I restored the AFC editor's AFC rating (and not the WikiProject NRHP rating), a total of 4 times, reverting editor CTG twice and a new-to-the-subject-area-editor twice. But it was discussed at the Talk page and also at wt:NRHP, and the new-to-subject editor had stated at wt:NRHP that they would not edit further there, i.e. would not disagree with the restoration of the AFC rating for the AFC wikiproject. This is not any regular form of edit-warring; my last change was implementing what was in effect a consensus. It is a stretch to call this a case of edit-warring needing ban from a vast subject area; it is not part of any pattern at all.


If we want to talk about ] when editors make mistakes, look at the diff given by NXcrypto for "Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested" - it is the wrong diff. He/she did notify PerspicazHistorian - but the correct diff is .
:I can return and provide diffs, if you cannot follow this. Sorry, I can't participate in wiki-litigation to an infinite extent. I see no urgency in proceeding with a ban; I see no real justification except possibly for a lack of complete response by me with diffs and legal-like discussion in this forum (again, to which I resent being dragged). --]]] 17:25, 25 September 2013 (UTC)


A topic ban from Indian topics would be unhelpful, unless given to both parties. Misplaced Pages is meant to be a mainstream encyclopaedia, and BJP and RSS are mainstream in India. Loading the dice against BJP and RSS editors will turn Misplaced Pages into a fringe encyclopaedia on Indian topics.
====Statement by Hasteur====
I have elected to withdraw from the NRHP project for a multitude of reasons, but in specific the Toxic and disruptive environment presented against Doncram (with specific notice to the last 24 hours of content) is the straw to break the camel's back. Early on in the BotReq phase of the request for the NRIS-only tagging, Doncram attempted to insert such complications that would make it nearly impossible for a repeated and mundane process to be able to accomplish the stated goal (]). Once the process moved forward into the BRFA thread Doncram tried to load the process down with additional tasks that would again make the bot's task impossible without adding a great amount of complexity and subsequently making it a loosing proposition for any Bot Operator to take up the task. As there were veiled threats of bulk undoing and contestations of consensus, I only considered it right to remove the rapidty from the equation. At this point, any editor could re-construct the list for calculating the matching articles without using a bot account to edit. I have attempted to give Doncram the benefit of the doubt by viewing pages that he has submitted for creation as neutrally as possible. In some cases this means approval and movement into mainspace (such as ]). In others this means declining the pseudo-AfC and attempting to get more. I've watched various projects and associations of editors clash with Doncram with the percieved result of Doncram continues much in the same way whereas the other side becomes demoarlized and conceeds the point in face of the mass changes that Doncram leads in the consensus of 1. ] (]) 03:30, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
:I've been asked to clarify my meanings, which is reasonable given my editing after I had start to head to bed.
::"Toxic and disruptive environment presented against Doncram" - this phrase is attempting to indicate that Doncram's actions have created a Toxic and disruptive environment.
:I reserve the right to further clarify. ] (]) 12:58, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
:{{Reply to|Sanderson}} I agree that the topic ban ideas may be appropriate, but I note that Doncram has already been warned and reminded without (what I would consider) significant improvement. For this reason I consider that a wiki-holiday length break will only defer the disruption instead of prevent it.] (]) 19:19, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


I can see a good case for restricting PerspicazHistorian to draft articles and talk pages for a month, and suggesting that he/she seeks advice from more experienced editors. Another solution would be a one-revert rule to last six months.<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:10pt;color:#000000">--] ]</span> 13:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
====Statement by TheCatalyst31====
After the Arbcom case closed, I reviewed a lot of Doncram's articles and tried to improve his contributions. It seemed to be going well at first, but over the past few months he's been making all kinds of problematic edits. There was back in June. There was that I "would have to be incredibly bizarre" to question his work after I pointed out that he didn't appear to have read a document he cited. There was , which simultaneously attacked writers of long articles and "some weirdly anti-NRHP people", which seems to be directed at Orlady. There's the overrating of his own articles, which started and has been going on since. There's that appears to imply that editors he doesn't like would have to worry about being punched in the face at a meetup. There's the comment, which was another attack on writers of longer articles and upset Coal town guy, who's from a rural area. And now there's his latest attack on Orlady and Coal town guy, which has driven three editors away from WikiProject NRHP and is exactly the kind of behavior he was warned against. This kind of behavior has been causing all kinds of trouble for WikiProject NRHP, and something needs to be done to get it to stop (and based on past experience, admonishment isn't going to work). ] <sup>]•]</sup> 04:36, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
:Regarding Sandstein's question, I'd be satisfied with an escalating series of topic bans along the lines of what Smallbones is proposing, provided it's enforced properly. Doncram's unwillingness to listen or follow consensus and his continual arguing over certain matters tend to be the root of these problems, and if he can't cooperate with other NRHP editors he shouldn't be allowed to work on NRHP-related topics. Enforcement is key, though; if Doncram continues to make occasional disruptive comments for a month until someone decides to do something, this probably won't help much. ] <sup>]•]</sup> 18:28, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


====Statement by Crisco 1492==== ====Statement by Capitals00====
I find the comment from {{U|Toddy1}} to be entirely outrageous. What are you trying to tell by saying "{{tq|Misplaced Pages is meant to be a mainstream encyclopaedia, and BJP and RSS are mainstream in India}}"? If you want us to entertain those who are in power, then we could never have an article like ].
] and I, as is plastered throughout much of the WP namespace, have been having a falling-out since June/July. Doncram, to the best of my knowledge, has not been previously involved in any of the discussions regarding this, be it one of three on ANI (links later if required) or at ]. As such, I find it concerning that his initial reaction was (to paraphrase) "Yeah, Tony, someone might be out to get you". <s>Regarding Doncram's comment there, I found it to be implying (very obliquely) that I may have racist tendencies, at least where TTT is concerned, as he writes "weird (possibly discriminatory) opposition in stuff going on (which i personally ascribed a lot to editor crisco"), suggesting that "discriminatory" opposition is being caused by me.</s> I fail to see why Doncram has decided to insert him/herself here, and fail to see why Doncram finds it necessary to bring me back to a discussion which I had already left for two days. As for the use of the word "hell", I don't find it that troubling, nor threatening, though I appreciate that some editors may. If Doncram's actions are indeed against probationary sanctions which have previously been enacted, then enforcement should be undertaken.&nbsp;—&nbsp;] (]) 05:34, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
:@Doncram: Hence why I said "to the best of my knowledge". I have stricken my interpretation of your comment, but please understand that was my first reading based on the collocation of my name and "possibly discriminatory".&nbsp;—&nbsp;] (]) 00:27, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
:@Cailil: My post was entirely focused on Doncram. The mention of TTT was simply to provide some context for Doncram's remarks.&nbsp;—&nbsp;] (]) 00:26, 25 September 2013 (UTC)


You cannot ask topic ban for both editors without having any evidence of misconduct. Same way, you cannot ask CU on either user ]. It is a high time that you should strike your comment, since you are falsely accusing others that they "{{tq|seek to censor}}" this editor due to his "{{tq| pro-Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) and pro-Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) views}}". You should strike your comment. If you cannot do that, then I am sure ] is coming for you. ] (]) 15:20, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
====Statement by Choess====
In light of the history between Orlady and Doncram, I feel I should point out that I independently came to the {{diff|Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places|next|573250088|same conclusion}} regarding that advisability of sanctions. I think the diffs above largely speak for themselves. This is the culmination of five years or so of tension, wherein Doncram has created an enormous volume of very short articles on NRHP-listed properties and resisted the increasingly forceful efforts of other editors on the topic to make him improve his articles or to clean them up in an organized fashion. Because of this history of acrimony, Doncram now attributes criticism of his methods to the machinations of a few particular editors, which has seriously disrupted collaboration at ]. ] (]) 06:16, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
:Well, so far Doncram's reponse seems to have been {{diff|Eads School Gymnasium|prev|573810659|this edit}}, removing what seems to be a sound paraphrase to replace it with his cut-and-paste quotes from the NRHP nomination statement. I understand that he's personally uncomfortable with synthesizing multiple sources and paraphrasing, and that he's gotten more grief than other editors would because of that writing style. But preventing others from improving the articles he creates, and his unwillingness to discuss his methods or compromise, are a real problem. At this point, I think a topic ban from NRHP material is the most reasonable solution. ] (]) 06:34, 22 September 2013 (UTC)


====Statement by TonyTheTiger==== ====Statement by Vanamonde93====
{{U|Toddy1}}: I, too, am baffled by your comment. We don't ban editors based on their POV; but we do ban editors who fail to follow our PAGs, and we certainly don't make excuses for editors who fail to follow our guidelines based on their POV. You seem to be suggesting we cut PH some slack because of their political position, and I find that deeply inappropriate. Among other things, I don't believe they have publicly stated anywhere that they support the BJP or the RSS, and we cannot make assumptions about them.
I interact with Doncram for advice on ] articles and help him out with photo needs as I am able. Recently Doncram has interacted with me in an attempt to stabilize ] when it first got rocky about two months ago. He has helped keep me level-headed in regards to a turbulent situation. In general I find him to be quite productive. I briefly looked at some of the edits above. I side with the stub viewpoint in the stub/start war above. Personally, I find a start/stub ratings disagreement not worth getting hung out to dry over. I would advise him to let ratings slide when he encounters vigorous opposition from multiple parties. In regards to his comments on my most recent blow up with Crisco, I found him to be supportive of my claims in a way that may have been offensive to my detractors. Nonetheless, I appreciate his empathy. I thinks it would be great if this tag team could ease up on Doncram and let him go on doing his fine work here on our national monuments and landmarks.--] <small>(] / ] / ] / ] / ])</small> 06:39, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


That said, the fact that this was still open prompted me to spot-check PH's contributions, and I find a lot to be concerned about. is from 29 December, and appears to be entirely original research; I cannot access all of the sources, but snippet search does not bear out the content added, and the Raj era source for the first sentence certainly does not support the content it was used for. ], entirely authored by PH, is full of puffery ({{tq|"first to sacrifice his life for the cause of Swarajya"}}, and poor sources (like , and , whose blurb I leave you to judge), from which most of the article appears to be drawn. ], also entirely authored by PH, has original research in its very first sentence; the sources that I can access give passing mention to people whose names include the suffix "appa", and thus could perhaps be examples of usage, but the sources most certainly do not bear out the claim.
====Statement by Smallbones====
I've been one of Doncram's few supporters at ], in general I agree with his aims, if not his style. The ongoing problem over several years has been that he just can't get along with other editors. I do see some ganging up on him and he is not always in the wrong, but he fails to go along with consensus, '''most of the time just arguing ad naseum''' I've proposed at that he receive a one-week topic ban for this disruption, followed by a two-week topic ban if it happens again, with a doubling of the length of the topic ban each additional time he causes disruption. This should concentrate his mind on ways to avoid disruption, or give us some peace at ]. The choice would be up to Doncram. ]<sub>(<font color="cc6600">]</font>)</sub> 18:34, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
:Since Doncram has not responded, I think the admins should go ahead and decide on sanctions. From reading the current suggestions from admins, it looks like they are too strict or permanent for my taste. I suggest that something more creative (such as I suggest immediately above) would be better than the nuclear option. Perhaps just ban him from NRHP talk pages - he can continue to contribute via AfC - and if WP:NRHP finds fault with the articles via AfC, we can communicate with the AfC editors. That wouldn't be stretching the ArbCom decision, in that the project was left to decide what is an acceptable stub (for our purposes). In any case, it is time to decide. ]<sub>(<font color="cc6600">]</font>)</sub> 02:36, 25 September 2013 (UTC)


I will note in fairness that I cannot access all the sources for the content I checked. But after spotchecking a dozen examples I have yet to find content PH wrote that was borne out by a reliable source, so I believe skepticism is justified. We are in territory where other editors may need to spend days cleaning up some of this writing. {{U|Bishonen}} If we're in CIR territory, just a normal indefinite block seems cleanest, surely? Or were you hoping that PH would help clean up their mess, perhaps by providing quotes from sources? That could be a pathway to contributing productively, but I'm not holding my breath. ] (]) 18:00, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
====Statement by The Devil's Advocate====
Once more, I would like to reiterate that Orlady should stay away from Doncram. She was already after dragging Doncram to ANI because . . . wait for it . . . she thought his user talk page was too long. This was after she had taken the lead in going after Doncram for the start-stub dispute ( ). Despite Errant's admonishment she has continued stalking his contributions ( ) in addition to her usual role in fanning the flames of disputes with Doncram at the NRHP wikiproject. I know she claims that she did not know the Eads Gymnasium article was one of Doncram's contributions, but it seems unlikely that she did not at least suspect it since she ] that she presumably knew was contributed by Doncram as she had looked at the revision history.


:Thanks Bish: I agree, as my exchanges with PH today, in response to my first post here, have not inspired confidence. . ] (]) 20:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
Unfortunately, it is very hard to deal with this situation because any sanctions would have to come through some other forum as there is no authorization under the ArbCom case for resolving this persistent problem of Orlady's harassment. I will say, my impression is that stub-class is meant for articles that are one or two sentences long, not articles that are a good-sized paragraph long and certainly not any longer than that. Additionally, I think the proposal for a bot adding clean-up tags is absurd and seems pretty unusual. I don't know of any bots that perform such a pointless task and given the way some editors seek to denigrate Doncram's contributions it does not surprise me that he would take personal offense. Orlady's involvement in fanning the flames is just making it all the more difficult for him to keep cool.--] <sub>] ]</sub> 21:51, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
:Orlady, you can give all the excuses and evasive arguments you like, but the reality is that you regularly put yourself at the forefront of any complaint against Doncram no matter how frivolous, such as that nonsense over his user talk page. Your very participation at the NRHP project is motivated by your vendetta against Doncram. Oh and exactly when did you watchlist the Freemasonry Wikiproject? Did it happen to be around the time you were feuding with Doncram over his contributions in that topic area? Looking over your contributions it seems you never touched that project or the topic area until Doncram became prominently involved in it back in 2010. Sorry, but noticing something concerning the target of your harassment on a page you watchlisted because the target of your harassment was involved there once does not magically make it not harassment. Many stalkers and harassers find ways to work their way into their target's everyday activities so they can provide an innocent cover for their actions.--] <sub>] ]</sub> 04:20, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
@NW, my comment may be too blunt for you, especially since you were reluctant to take substantive action against ''anyone'' harassing Doncram, but it is no less truthful and is most certainly relevant. Orlady seems to think that Doncram coming across a page she has on a watchlist means she is not engaged in harassment by opposing him there, even if the page is only on her watchlist because Doncram had previously been there. Anyone who knows anything about harassment knows that harassment often involves following places a person has previously been in case they show up there again. Orlady is bringing this case here and citing comments about her as part of the basis for sanctions so her treatment of him is pertinent.--] <sub>] ]</sub> 20:00, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
:Unlike some on this site I do not use these terms lightly, NW. This is real-life. A real human being is on the other end of that screen name. It doesn't trivialize in-person stalking to suggest that the same behaviors can be exhibited online and have the same emotional consequences.--] <sub>] ]</sub> 20:50, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
@Cailil, I believe barring Doncram from the NRHP area would be excessive and harmful to the project given that it is his primary contribution here. Were you to look over most of his articles you would see not even a hint of the problems his opponents have regularly cited against him. If your main concern is the dispute over classifications of articles then you can simply bar him from changing and adding such classifications himself.--] <sub>] ]</sub> 16:18, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
:Sandstein, my suggestion for barring Doncram from changing article classifications is much clearer and would be targeted rather than ham-fisted. As to your excessive suggestion to block me, I did not call Orlady a stalker or accuse her of stalking. I am accusing her of harassment. When I said "stalkers and harassers" I was including her in the latter group, not the former.--] <sub>] ]</sub> 22:11, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


====Statement by Acroterion==== ====Statement by UtherSRG====
I've mostly dealt with PH around ]. They do not seem to have the ability to read and understand our policies and processes. As such, a t-ban is too weak. The minimum I would support is a p-block as suggested below, though a full indef is also acceptable. They could then ask for the ] when they can demonstrate they no longer have ] issues. - ] ] 20:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
The contention is an outgrowth of the effort by the NRHP project to implement Remedy #6 of the arbitration conclusion, in which the community was advised to set standards for stub creation. This has led to a focus on consistent standards for article rating, and scrutiny of newly created articles and their ratings. The emphasis of this effort is broader than simply deciding what constitutes a stub, it is intended as a focused article improvement and expansion effort, supported by bot tasks to gather information on minimally-sourced stubs. While on a small scale it's not important whether a given article is rated a stub or a start, and in my opinion not worth a single revert, much less an edit war, the larger effort is necessary and appropriate as Misplaced Pages matures. Arguments over a stub/start evaluation are characteristic of the minimalist approach adopted by Doncram. Doncram is capable of producing detailed, quality articles, but prefers a broad-brush approach that emphasizes quantity over quality, and he appears to view the quality improvement initiative and stub scrutiny as criticism of his effort, which to some degree it is, given that it's an result of the previous arbitration proceeding. If the small, and largely meaningless step from stub to start is so contentious, what about real improvement to B and beyond?


:Based on , I'm more strongly leaning towards indef. - ] ] 12:27, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
Some of the problem is the result of AfC ratings that don't coincide with the goals of the NRHP project, and of course we can all find dozens of articles throughout the wiki that are rated as B when they're no better than starts. I'm fairly cynical about the accuracy of any individual rating, but the larger effort is important and the disruption to that effort is undermining a larger benefit to the encyclopedia.
::They now indicate they believe the article they edited was copied from one of the websites they used as a reference, when in reality the website is a mirror/scrape of the Misplaced Pages article. I believe we are firmly in ] territory here. - ] ] 14:25, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
::: is a mirror of the Misplaced Pages article. - ] ] 16:29, 31 December 2024 (UTC)


===Result concerning PerspicazHistorian ===
I've generally supported Doncram more than many participants in NRHP, but I find his attitude toward other editors and toward criticism, either explicit or implied, to be frustrating and divisive. I endorse Smallbones' proposed remedy as a way of allowing the work of the encyclopedia to proceed: no one editor should be able to disrupt basic article improvement initiatives or to affect what should be a dispassionate evaluation of articles and their state of development. '''<font face="Arial">] <small>]</small></font>''' 15:28, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.''


{{u|PerspicazHistorian}}, can you explain your understanding of ] and the ] rule? I'd like you to read thoroughly enough to also explain wny someone may be edit warring ''even if they aren't breaking 3RR''. ] (]) 21:58, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
====Statement by Cla68====
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. -->
NuclearWarfare, instead of spending so much time criticizing DevilsAdvocate's statement, why don't you first work through if what he is saying is true? ''Is'' Orlady following Doncram around Misplaced Pages and trying to find reasons to get him banned or bait him into reacting to her? If so, are you going to do anything about it? Please look at the evidence ''before'' picking a side. ] (]) 22:25, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
:@], that explanation of edit warring is a bit wanting. An edit war is when two or more editors revert content additions/removals repeatedly. Even a second reversion by the same editor can be considered edit warring. Best practice -- and what I highly recommend, especially for any inexperienced editor -- is ''the first time'' someone reverts an edit of yours, go to the talk page, open a section, ping the editor who reverted you, and discuss. Do you think you can commit to that?
:<small>Re: your question on why your "obvious edit" was reverted: we don't deal with content issues here, only with behavior issues, but from a very quick look, the source is 50 years old, and using a list headed "TERRORIST ORGANISATIONS LISTED IN THE FIRST SCHEDULE OF THE UNLAWFUL ACTIVITIES (PREVENTION) ACT, 1967" that includes a certain organization as a source that the organization should be described as a terrorist organization is ]; in their ] NXcrypto provided an edit summary of "Not a reliable source for such a contentious label. See WP:LABEL." Please discuss at talk, not here; we don't deal with content here.</small> ] (]) 11:28, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::I'm seeing this as a CIR issue. I'd like input from other admins, if possible. I'm a little concerned that setting a tban from IPA is just setting a trap. Maybe a p-block from article space would be a kinder way to allow them to gain some experience? ] (]) 13:28, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
:::@], have you seen how many times I or others have had to move your comments to your own section? This is an example of not having enough experience to edit productively. Please do not post in anyone else's section again. ] (]) 16:09, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
::::I do agree we're in CIR territory, and the concerns expressed are completely valid. I don't think this editor is ill-intentioned. They just don't seem very motivated to learn quickly. Well-intentioned-but-a-slow-learner is something that can only be fixed by actually practicing what you're bad at. I'd prefer an indef from article space which gives them one more chance to learn here before we send them off to mr.wiki or Simple English to try to learn. Not a hill I'm going to die on, though. ] (]) 11:36, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::@], like Uther I have major concerns about the edit you made yesterday, which included replacing a citation needed tag with these sources.<ref>{{Cite web |title=Significance of Different Type of Prasad in Hinduism For God |url=https://www.ganeshaspeaks.com/predictions/astrology/prasad-food-for-god/ |access-date=2024-12-30 |website=GaneshaSpeaks |language=en-GB}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |title=What Is Prashad |url=https://www.swaminarayan.faith/articles/what-is-prashad |access-date=2024-12-30 |website=Shree Swaminarayan Mandir Bhuj |language=en}}</ref> The first is a company that markets astrology services. The second is the site for a religious sect. Neither is a reliable source for explaining the concept of prasada in Wikivoice. You made this edit ''yesterday'', after you'd confirmed here and on my talk that you understood sourcing policy.
:::::The reason for an indef from article space is to allow you to learn this policy: You would go into article talk and suggest sources to fix citation needed tags. Another editor would have to agree with you that the sources are reliable before they'd add them. ] (]) 12:51, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
*A tban from IPA for PerspicazHistorian would be a relief to many editors trying to keep this difficult area in reasonable shape. However, Valereee makes a good point about 'setting a trap': it's doubtful that PH would be able to keep to a tban even if they tried in good faith. I would therefore support a p-block from article space. ] &#124; ] 16:48, 29 December 2024 (UTC).
*:{{u|Vanamonde93}}, no, I don't really think PH can usefully help clean up their mess; I was following Valereee, who has been going into this in some depth, in attempting to keep some way of editing Misplaced Pages open for PH. It's a bit of a counsel of desperation, though; there is very little daylight between an indef and a p-block from article space. Yes, we ''are'' in CIR territory; just look at PH's ] for NXcrypto being "engaged in edit wars before on contentious Indian topics": one diff of an opponent complaining on NXcrypto's page, and one diff of somebody reverting NXcrypto. What do those actually prove? That NXcrypto has opponents (big surprise). So, yes, as you suggest, I'll support an indef as well. ] &#124; ] 20:09, 29 December 2024 (UTC).
*Is there a length of time proposed for the p-ban or would it be indefinite? ] (]) 17:06, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
*:I would say indefinite; not infinite, but I'd be wary about letting them back into articlespace without some kind of preclearance. ] (] • she/her) 18:39, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
*It looks to me like there is a consensus for an indefinite partial block for PerspicazHistorian from article space. Unless any uninvolved admin objects within a day or so, I will close as such. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 06:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
*:Given PH's recent slew of requests on multiple admin talk pages, yes, please do. - ] ] 12:58, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
*<!--
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{{reflist talk}}
====Statement by Nyttend====
{{hab}}
Let me simply remind the AE admins that this project has long experienced serious strife, with the singular exception of a period running from . Few or no problems occur in discussions in which Doncram is uninvolved (see the ] thread on "Cedar Point Light"; we don't all agree, but it's calm and peaceful), but his actions and his methods of interacting with other users generally produce the problems. Language such as "egging another editor on" (without evidence) and as "indictments" that are "pretty hurtful, and pretty immature, and pretty short-sighted" has persisted since before the Arbcom case, as has his pattern of to the point that they take down useful resources when he's used those resources in a way that produces strife. This was the kind of stuff that was supposed to be stopped by the case's restrictions. ] (]) 03:33, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


==LaylaCares==
===Result concerning Doncram===
{{hat|There is consensus to remove LaylaCares's EC flag. ] (]) 17:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)}}
<!-- Use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}} to mark this request as closed.-->
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small>
<small>''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.''</small>


===Request concerning LaylaCares===
Waiting on Doncram's statement. Meanwhile, could the editors who ask for administrator action please recommend which action they deem appropriate, and why? <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 06:22, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|Vice regent}} 08:00, 3 January 2025 (UTC)


; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|LaylaCares}}<p>{{ds/log|LaylaCares}}</p>
:{{ping|The Devil's Advocate}} There's a line and you're crossing it with "Many stalkers and harassers find ways to work their way into their target's everyday activities so they can provide an innocent cover for their actions." '''<font color="navy">]</font>''' ''(<font color="green">]</font>)'' 16:14, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
:Yes. Let's talk about what ] is. It is not ]. That term has been deprecated since 2005 for good reason, because it seriously trivializes abuse that actual real life victims must face. '''<font color="navy">]</font>''' ''(<font color="green">]</font>)'' 20:17, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. --->
*I have to say that nobody is coming out of this looking good. Doncram's behaviour is in breach of the RFAR, and it does look like Orlady is following him. Then we have TTT and Crisco carrying on their dispute with each other here by proxy. Certainly the evidence is such that I suggest Doncram should be excluded from the NRHP area broadly construed for an indefinite period (and if the same argument re: classification of start or stub class articles begins elsewhere i would strongly advise him not to repeat this behaviour). Furthermore a two-way IBAN for Orlady and Doncram seems necessary. Certainly a one way IBAN can be issued to Doncram but we would need to go to WP:ARCA to see if the Committee would allow it to go two ways? <br>However, I'd echo NW re: TDA's allegation of vendetta and stalking. There is a profound difference between ] and ]. Using the term "stalking" for effect is not helpful in describing wikihounding and implies an element of '''criminal''' behaviour that is neither there nor appropriate to allege. There are legitimate concerns about Doncram's behavoiur (even expressed by those who agree with his points of argument) but I do think an IBAN would resolve many issues here--] <sup>]</sup> 13:58, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
*I would support a suitably-tailored restriction that would keep Doncram from undoing a Wikiproject consensus. ]'s view that Doncram should be excluded from the entire NRHP area is one way of doing that. I suggest hearing from more people before the exact form of any restriction is decided. Arbcom already made Findings of Fact in the case about Doncram engaging in 'uncollegial behavior' and 'repeatedly creating articles with placeholder text and stubs with insufficient context..' They also banned him from making new submissions directly in article space. Revert warring on the rating of his own submissions certainly fits the pattern of behavior that Arbcom found fault with. It's reasonable that AE admins could adopt measures that are sufficient to keep these problems from continuing. ] (]) 16:21, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
*I agree with Cailil that there is poor behavior all around.
:*'''Orlady:''' In Orlady's request, several points of evidence are not diffs of edits by Doncram, but edits by somebody else, and in most cases it remains obscure to me how even the edits by Doncram could constitute sanctionable misconduct. There are many broad allegations, but little hard evidence. I'm open to evidence that her conduct constitutes wikihounding, but I don't find such evidence here (in the form: he makes edit A, she immediately follows up with edit B), and also this case does not contain remedies concerning conduct by editors other than Doncram and somebody who hasn't appeared here.
:*'''Doncram''': But the evidence of edit-warring by Doncram is clear, and this is sanctionable misconduct. A NRHP topic ban appears appropriate in reaction to it. I'm not a fan of overly elaborate restrictions like one that "would keep Doncram from undoing a Wikiproject consensus". Complicated restrictions are complicated to enforce. Also, that sounds like a content-based sanction, and we don't do content dispute resolution here.
:*'''The Devil's Advocate''': As Nuclear Warfare said, it is egregious misbehavior by The Devil's Advocate to accuse Orlady of what sounds like real-life stalking: "Many stalkers and harassers find ways to work their way into their target's everyday activities so they can provide an innocent cover for their actions." These are unacceptable personal attacks and ], and a block appears in order in reaction to them (under normal admin authority, because the remedy covers Doncram only).
:Essentially, this is, as depressingly usual on this page, just a bunch of people so tied up in their petty feuds that they lose all sense of scope and proportion. A round of bilateral interaction bans could help address this, but would not be covered by the remedy. Does anybody believe that an escalation to ArbCom to seek broader sanctions would help? <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 19:25, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
:*In fact a ban of Doncram from NRHP topics is the obvious choice; I just wanted to leave it open what the best restriction was going to be. When I reviewed ] I at first thought that Arbcom was deferring all the real decisions. But in fact, a read of the FOFs and the restrictions on Doncram gives a good feeling for their direction and intentions. It should be possible for the AE admins in September to enforce whatever thinking Arbcom had in March without an immediate return trip. Anyone who thinks that editors on the other side (such as Orlady) are likely to be restricted if the matter returns to the Committee won't be encouraged by reading the discusion of Orlady on , including the comments left after each vote. ] (]) 21:50, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
:*I'm inclined to agree that an indefinite topic ban on Doncram from NHRP related subjects, broadly construed, is going to be necessary here. I am, however, hesitant to find fault with Orlady. While her ANI filing about archiving the talk page was not the best judgment, there's already been a ] issued for that, and unless that can be shown to be a pattern, I'm not inclined to find such to be sanctionable (under normal admin authority, since the ArbCom decision authorized discretionary sanctions against only Doncram). It is generally not considered stalking to keep an eye on an editor's behavior when their edits have in fact been problematic, and I'd have to see more evidence of wrongdoing or ill intentions on Orlady's part beyond that to consider requesting sanctions from ArbCom. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 21:56, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
:] has not edited Misplaced Pages since 21 September, and there is no response to a message I left on his talk, inviting him to expand on his statement (as he indicated he might do). Should we go ahead and close this and make whatever decision is appropriate? ] (]) 12:56, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
{{hab}}


;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ]
:I was just commenting in an edit-in-progress that was swept into the now-hatted, closed discussion. I did not experience an edit conflict, but it was an ec-type simultaneous edit. To the closer and others, could you please consider that comment, and perhaps unhat for some further discussion. sincerely, --]]] 17:33, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced --->


; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it :
== Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Jiujitsuguy ==
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as ], or groundless or ] complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.-->
# EC gaming


<small>''Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found ]. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. <p>To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see ]).''</small>


;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]):
; Appealing user : {{userlinks|Jiujitsuguy}}


; Additional comments by editor filing complaint :
; Sanction being appealed:
Pretty obvious case of EC gaming. Account created on Nov 17, 2024, then about 500 mostly minor edits followed by the first substantial edit ever was the creation of on Dec 17 (subsequently moved to draftspace).''']''' <sub>(Please ] on reply)</sub> 08:00, 3 January 2025 (UTC)


https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement&diff=503267313&oldid=503208820 ; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested :
; Administrator imposing the sanction : ].
; Notification of that administrator :
===Statement by Jiujitsuguy===
Per the advice and constructive criticism offered by ] and concurrence of ] I am resubmitting my appeal. In the break between my last appeal and the instant one, I have created articles and added content on a variety of subjects including archeology, orthopedics, military history and weapon systems. I have edited constructively, in a collegial, collaborative and non-confrontational manner. I understand now that my previous editing pattern was abrasive and tendentious. In addition, rather than seeking to reconcile differences with a colleague with whom I was having a dispute, I moved too quickly to AE, which was entirely inappropriate. AE should never be used as a tool to silence anyone and should be avoided when possible. I will try hard not to repeat the past mistakes that have led me to the instant topic ban, now in its 14th month.


<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. --->
I also wish to offer my sincerest apologies to ] for misconstruing his disciplinary actions and acting with haste in making groundless accusations against him. I blame my lack of maturity for the tasteless outburst and I am embarrassed by it.


===Discussion concerning LaylaCares===
I sincerely hope that in light of my constructive editing, the fact that I've expressed contrition and recognize my mistakes, the fact that I’ve embraced the suggestions of the aforementioned syops rather than arguing with them, the fact that I’ve already been banned for a year and two months and the fact that I have zealously adhered to the provisions of the topic ban, that the ban be lifted. Whichever way you decide, I thank you for taking the time to consider my appeal and will of course respect your decision. I do however, hope that you will look favorably upon it. Thank you.
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small>


===Statement by Timotheus Canens=== ====Statement by LaylaCares====
===Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Jiujitsuguy===


====Statement by The Devil's Advocate==== ====Statement by Aquillion====
Question: Assuming it's determined that they gamed the extended-confirmed restriction, would the page they created be ]-able? I've asked the relevant question in more detail ], since it is likely to come up again as long as we have such a broad restriction on effect, but I figured it was worth mentioning the issue here as well. --] (]) 14:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
Jiujitsuguy had appealed the topic ban just two months ago and has only made 113 edits in the past month and made no edits in the month immediately following his appeal. This second appeal seems hasty, especially given the reason for his topic ban from ARPBIA areas. I think this appeal should be declined. Perhaps AE admins should consider giving JJG some strict bounds determining when he can appeal again. Not just a time limit, but strict editing criteria so that he will not be able to appeal until he has truly demonstrated editing that makes a future appeal worthy of some consideration.--] <sub>] ]</sub> 20:19, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


====Statement by EatsShootsAndLeaves==== ===Statement by Dan Murphy===
Please look at ], written by the account under discussion. It's a hit job, originally placed in mainspace by this account. Anyone who wrote that shouldn't be allowed with 1 million miles of the topic.] (]) 23:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
100% in agreement with TDA's statement. Nothing in their actions show ''substantive changes'' which are required for appeals - mostly there's no changes because they've done nothing, and thus cannot prove anything <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 21:41, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


===Result of appeal by Jiujitsuguy=== ====Statement by starship.paint====
I've edited Draft:Hamas–UNRWA relations, so Dan Murphy's link is inaccurate for the purposes of this discussion. For the version of Draft:Hamas–UNRWA relations with content only written by LaylaCares, . '''] (] / ])''' 10:45, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

====Statement by (username)====

<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. -->

===Result concerning LaylaCares===
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' :''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.''
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. -->
*I agree that this looks like EC-gaming. Absent evidence that the edits themselves were problematic, I would either TBAN from ARBPIA or pull the EC flag until the user has made 500 edits that aren't rapidfire possibly LLM-assisted gnomish edits. ] (]) 17:02, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
*I agree on the gaming piece and would suggest mainspace edits+time for restoration of EC. I will throw out 3 months + 500 (substantive) main space edits. ] (]) 17:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
*I agree with Barkeep but I'd up it to 4 months. I don't believe that a TBAN is necessary at this point. ] (]/]) 04:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
*@]: I agree that the draft should be G5'd, but will wait for consensus to develop here. ] (]/]) 01:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
*:I don't think the wording of ] allows for deletion of a page that was created by an EC user. <small>(ECR also seems to forget that anything other than articles and talkpages exists, but I think the most reasonable reading of provision A still allows for G5ing drafts at admins' discretion if the criteria are met.)</small> That said, a consensus at AE can delete a page as a "reasonable measure that necessary and proportionate for the smooth running of the project". Deleting under that provision is not something to be done lightly, but I think for a case where a page's existence violates the spirit of an ArbCom restriction but not the letter, it'd be a fair time to do it. And/or this could make for a good ARCA question, probably after PIA5 wraps. <span style="font-family:courier"> -- ]</span><sup class="nowrap">&#91;]]</sup> <small>(])</small> 03:48, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
*I would just pull EC and require the editor to apply via AE appeal for its restoration. They should be very clearly aware that receiving such restoration will require both substantial time and making ''real'', substantive edits outside the area, as well as an understanding of what is expected of editors working in a CTOP area. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 01:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
*I see a clear consensus here to remove the EC flag. For clarity, when I proposed a TBAN above it was because removing this flag ''is'' an ARBPIA TBAN as long as the ECR remedy remains in place; it's simply a question of whether the editor get the other privileges of EC or not. I don't see a consensus on what to do with the draft, but given that other editors have now made substantive contributions to it, I don't believe it's a good use of AE time to discuss the hypothetical further. ] (]) 17:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
{{hab}}


==AstroGuy0==
== Arbitration enforcement action appeal by 198.189.184.243 ==
{{hat|{{u|AstroGuy0}} has been issued a warning for source misrepresentation by {{u|Voorts}}. No other reviewers have expressed any wish for further action. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 06:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC) }}
{{hat|Appeal declined--] <sup>]</sup> 13:00, 25 September 2013 (UTC)}}
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small>
<small>''Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found ]. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. <p>To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see ]).''</small>


===Request concerning AstroGuy0===
; Appealing user : {{userlinks|{{{Appealing user|198.189.184.243}}}}} – ~<includeonly>~</includeonly>~~
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|Hemiauchenia}} 03:41, 4 January 2025 (UTC)


; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|AstroGuy0}}<p>{{ds/log|AstroGuy0}}</p>
; Sanction being appealed :


<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. --->
; Administrator imposing the sanction : {{admin|{{{User imposing the sanction|EdJohnston}}}}}


;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ]
; Notification of that administrator : http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:EdJohnston&diff=574388991&oldid=574378913
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced --->
(Even though this isn't the usual R&I fare, I consider the intersection of "Race/ethnicity and sex offending", to come under "the intersection of '''race/ethnicity''' and human abilities '''and behaviour'''")


; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it :
===Statement by 198.189.184.243===
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as ], or groundless or ] complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.-->
# Asserts that "A majority of the perpetrators were Pakistani men" despite the cited source (freely accessible at ) does not mention the word "Pakistani" or any variant once.
# Describes the sex offender ring as "Pakistani" in the opening sentence when the cited source in the body says that they were only "mainly Pakistani"


; Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any :
I feel that there is a violation of the ] policy at play here, since the fact of reconsideration of ascorbate for cancer treatment (evidence aside from those reviews suggests that it might have use as a ''complementary'' cancer treatment) is being pushed in mainstream journals: http://advances.nutrition.org/content/2/2/78, http://ar.iiarjournals.org/content/29/3/809.long


;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]):
The reasons for this reconsideration are pharmacokinetic studies, animal studies, case series, and pharmacological observations.


: Made aware of contentious topics criterion:
Some discussion ensued on the talk page about subsequent phase I trials. There were discrepancies with these trials - some of them ''did'' show an effect, others did not (implying that the effect was situational), and the blanket condemnation of them is not valid. Other studies showed improved quality of life as an adjunct to traditional therapy, regardless of specific anticancer effect. I cover all of this here, at a comment at the bottom of the talk page, which has since been deleted: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Orthomolecular_medicine&diff=prev&oldid=574384007#Vit_C
<!-- Add any further comment here -->


; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested :
The initial pretext was that I deserved sanctions because I was "edit warring", when I only made one edit. Immediately I was reported to a noticeboard, which, to me signified an illegitimate attempt against me. After this, I made only '''one''' revert (did not at all violate 3RR), because I felt that these pretexts were invalid. After that, my edit was reverted because Phase I trials are not encouraged under ], which I am perfectly fine with. People can view the history here: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Orthomolecular_medicine&action=history
<!-- Please notify the user against whom you request enforcement of the request (you may use {{subst:AE-notice|thread name}}), and then replace this comment with a diff of the notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise. -->


<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. --->
In light of everything that has been presented at the talk page (including my deleted comments), I feel that a perfectly reasonable replacement for the contentious section is the following:


Additional comments by editor filing complaint:
'''"Some research groups have recently suggested that the use of ascorbate in cancer treatment be reevaluated.( http://advances.nutrition.org/content/2/2/78 )( http://ar.iiarjournals.org/content/29/3/809.long ). A retrospective, multicenter, epidemiological cohort study showed that ''complementary'' treatment of cancer patients receiving traditional chemotherapy and radiotherapy with intravenous vitamin c improved quality of life.( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22021693 )"'''] (]) 23:24, 24 September 2013 (UTC)


This new user seems intent on POVPUSHING regarding "Asian/Muslim grooming gangs" and making contentious claims that are not backed up by sources. ] (]) 03:44, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
'''Aside from that, I would be fine with being given the ability to make only one revert or to not make reverts at all - as a limited, but not banned, user - or at least be given the ability to write on talk pages, with the articles made semi-protected. From the contributions on the talk page (particularly the deleted one), I feel that I bring up important points. {{u|Monty845}} says on his user page that he finds any form of censorship offensive. I feel that I bring important relevant information to the discussion that warrants consideration, that deleting it (even on talk pages - particularly considering the last edit (see bottom): http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Orthomolecular_medicine&diff=prev&oldid=574384007#Vit_C) is going a step too far.'''] (]) 00:54, 25 September 2013 (UTC)


===Statement by EdJohnston=== ===Discussion concerning AstroGuy0===
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small>
I imposed this restriction after a discussion at the edit warring noticeboard that can be seen . The immediate reason for the ban was the user's persistence in adding his POV at ] regardless of the opposition of other editors on the talk page. (He wants the article to give credence to the value of Vitamin C in cancer treatment). He became active on the article on 21 August and has made about nine reverts since that time. The editor's style of reasoning may be seen at ]. Since he started work on ] the user has been blocked twice, the last time for 72 hours. The blocks do not seem to have had any beneficial effect. ] (]) 03:21, 25 September 2013 (UTC)


===Statement by (involved editor 1)=== ====Statement by AstroGuy0====


===Statement by (involved editor 2)=== ====Statement by Iskandar323====
This rather dated "Asian/Muslim grooming gangs" malarkey from the UK has recently been pushed on social media by a certain US tech billionaire and is now recirculating in right-wing social media and the blogosphere, partly in connection with UK politics, so this trend could flare before it dims. ] (]) 03:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)


====Statement by (username)====
===Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by 198.189.184.243 ===
<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. -->


===Result of the appeal by 198.189.184.243=== ===Result concerning AstroGuy0===
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' :''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.''
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. -->
*198.189.184.243, you were already blocked twice for edit warring on that page. Coming back from the last block, you immediately added content that was similar to what you were previously edit warring over. When that content was reverted, you reverted it right back. That is classic edit warring behavior. ] is not an entitlement, even less so when talking about the resumption of a previous edit war. Even in your appeal here, you continue to be focused on trying to get the content of the article changed. While I personally would have been more lenient, the topic ban here looks well justified. ][[User talk:Monty845|<small>
*<!--
<sub><font color="#A3BFBF">845</font></sub></small>]] 00:12, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
-->
*I've reviewed the history and agree with Monty that the topic ban was justified. Escalating blocks were clearly not successful in preventing further disruption.--] (]) 00:42, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
:The second diff was before AG0 received a CTOP alert. I've alerted AG0 to other CTOPs that they've edited in, and I am going to warn them for their conduct in diff #1 without prejudice to other admins determining that further action is warranted. ] (]/]) 04:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
*I would decline the appeal as presented here. As it affects the editing of the article ], the topic ban is a reaction to edit-warring that is within the scope of administrator discretion as described in ]. Contrary to what the appellant seems to believe, this process does not adjudicate the content aspects of any disagreements; their arguments with respect to the content at issue are therefore not relevant here. As it applies to fringe science topics other than ], the ban may well prove to be too broad in scope, because I see no evidence of misconduct in other fringe science topic areas. However, the appeal does not put forth the argument that the topic ban unduly restricts editing in any other topic areas, and therefore any questions related to the scope of the ban do not need to be decided at this time. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 09:14, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
:I also looked at the source, and it indeed does not in any way support the claim made; it does not mention "Pakistani" even once. This is a fairly new editor, but I think we need to make it very clear to them that misrepresentation of sources is not something we will tolerate. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 04:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

::Given that AstroGuy0 has already been issued a warning, I don't think anything further is necessary, and will close as such unless any uninvolved admin shortly objects. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 18:23, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
<!-- Please notify the appellant in the event of a successful appeal, in addition to logging it on the case page. ] informs users that "If you appeal this sanction, you remain bound by it until you are notified by an uninvolved administrator that the appeal has been successful."-->
<!-- Use {{discussion top}} / {{discussion bottom}} to mark this request as closed.-->
{{hab}} {{hab}}


==Lemabeta==
==Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )==
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br>Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> <small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small>

===Request concerning Lemabeta===
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|EF5}} 20:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC)


; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Lemabeta}}<p>{{ds/log|Lemabeta}}</p>
===Request concerning Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )===
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : ] (]) 06:51, 25 September 2013 (UTC)


; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )}}
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> <!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. --->


;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] ;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ]
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced --->

; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : ; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it :
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. --> <!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as ], or groundless or ] complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.-->
# - Made a draft on a European ethnic group, which they are currently barred from doing.
# Richard Arthur Norton links to , where the file history makes it clear that he contributed that page there. The edit is nearly a month old, but I don't check these that regularly either...
# - Started a page on a Georgian ethnologist.



;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]):
<!-- The following are examples. Write "Not applicable" or similar if this is not a discretionary sanctions enforcement request. Otherwise, fill out at least one line that applies and delete the rest. If you wish to request discretionary sanctions but none of these situations apply, issue an alert yourself instead of making this request, see the link above. -->
*Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above.
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : ; Additional comments by editor filing complaint :
I likely filed this improperly, but to sum it up they continue to make pages in a scope they were banned from. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 20:25, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
It's only one violation, but considering that the editor hardly edits anymore, I still consider it significant enough to warrant attention. Whether that should be a stern final warning or a block is up to those reviewing this of course. ] (]) 06:51, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
:On the bullet point, I’ve never filed an AE report before, and I wasn’t sure if “block” meant T-ban, p-block, etc., so I just picked whichever one made the most sense. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 21:45, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
:(Not sure if I’m allowed to reply here) I’ve never filed an AE report before, and I wasn’t sure if “block” meant T-ban, p-block, etc., so I just picked whichever one made the most sense. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 21:45, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
:: <small>Response to Bishonen. Moved from results section. ] (]/]) 21:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)</small>
::(RES to Bishonen) That's fair. When starting the AE, it only gave me nine options, none of which seemed to fit right. The third bullet ("Previously given a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction or warned for conduct in the area of conflict on DIFF by _____") didn't seem to fit, as the sanction wasn't for verbal conduct. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 22:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested :
<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. --->


===Discussion concerning Lemabeta===
Note that (from June, but still among his 100 most recent edits) may not violate the letter but at least the spirit of his restriction, ''adding'' a 76-word quote from a copyrighted source (a 1978 Chicago Tribune article), from a link to his own copyright-violating flickr site, instead of ''removing'' the link to his own copyright violation. The work that he should have done at the article has since been done by Nikkimaria. ] (]) 07:09, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small>


====Statement by Lemabeta====
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested :
Yeah, my bad. Didn't realize translation of a page of ethnographic group would count as a violation of my topic ban about "history of the Caucasus and its cultural heritage, broadly construed" I recognize my mistake. --] (]) 20:30, 5 January 2025 (UTC)


:Ethnographic groups and cultural heritage are '''related but distinct concepts'''. An ''ethnographic group'' refers to a '''community of people''' defined by shared ancestry, language, traditions, and cultural identity. In contrast, ''cultural heritage'' refers to the *''practices, artifacts, knowledge, and traditions preserved or inherited from the past''. But cultural heritage is indeed a component of ethnographic groups.
<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. --->
:So i don't believe ethnographic group should be considered as either history of the Caucasus or cultural heritage. ] (]) 20:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
===Discussion concerning Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )===
::In my opinion, cultural heritage (both tangible and intangible) '''emerges from''' ethnographic groups but '''does not define the group itself'''. ] (]) 20:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. <br>Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small>
:::I think ethnographic groups fall under the category of Ethnography, or even socio-cultural antropology but for sure not cultural heritage. ] (]) 21:09, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
====Statement by Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )====
::::I understand, i already apologized on my talk page for this accident. I will not repeat this mistake again. ] (]) 21:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)


====Statement by (username)==== ====Statement by (username)====
<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. --> <!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. -->


===Result concerning Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )=== ===Result concerning Lemabeta===
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.''
<!-- Use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}} to mark this request as closed.-->
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. -->
<small>''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.''</small>
*<!--
-->
* I don't see Lemabeta mentioned in the case itself, but they're currently under ] from "the history of the Caucasus and its cultural heritage, broadly construed". ] (] • she/her) 20:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
*:To be fair, when you click above to add a new enforcement request, the template states:<br><nowiki>;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ]</nowiki><br><nowiki><!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---></nowiki> ] (]/]) 20:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
*{{tq| Didn't realize translation of a page of ethnographic group would count as a violation of my topic ban about "history of the Caucasus and its cultural heritage, broadly construed"}} @]: what did you think "the history of the Caucasus and its cultural heritage" meant? I think it's pretty obvious that that an article on an ethnic group from the Caucasus and about an ethnologist who writes about that region is covered by your topic ban. ] (]/]) 20:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
*:Note that I've deleted ] as a clear G5 violation. I think ] is a bit more of a questionable G5. ] (]/]) 20:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
*:Your definition of "ethnographic group" includes the phrases "shared ancestry" (i.e., history), and "shared&nbsp;... traditions" and "shared&nbsp;... cultural identity" (i.e., cultural heritage). Your attempt to exclude "ethnographic group" from either of the two categories in your topic ban is entirely unpersuasive, particularly since your topic ban is to be "broadly construed". ] (]/]) 21:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
*:@]: this doesn't seem like a mistake to me, but I'm okay with a logged warning here. ] (]/]) 21:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
*:@]: This is about violating the TBAN. Per my response to leek, I think the issue is with the AE request template, which is a bit unclear. ] (]/]) 22:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
*:@]: I don't think a block is needed here, but the next violation, definitely. ] (]/]) 22:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
*:@]: They were "reviously given&nbsp;... contentious topic restriction", the topic ban at issue. ] (]/]) 22:09, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
* {{re|Lemabeta}} Not every single thing you could write about an ethnic group would fall under cultural history, but that's not really relevant on the Rachvelians page, where the History section was entirely about their cultural history, even containing the words {{tqq| highlighting their ethnographic and cultural identity}}. There's a reason we use the words "]" on most TBANs, and a reason we encourage people to act like they're TBANned from a broader area than they are. (Consider: Would you feel safe driving under a bridge where clearance is exactly the same height as your vehicle? Or would you need a few inches' gap to feel safe doing it?){{pb}}This does seem like a good-faith misunderstanding, so if you will commit to not making it again in the future, I think this can be closed with a clarification/warning. But that's an important "if". If you want to argue semantics, then the message that sends to admins is that you don't intend to comply with the TBAN, in which case the next step would be a siteblock. <span style="font-family:courier"> -- ]</span><sup class="nowrap">&#91;]]</sup> <small>(])</small> 21:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
*{{u|EF5}}, I don't understand your {{tq|"Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above"}} statement, can you please explain what it refers to? ]? Lemabeta's block log is blank.
:That said, I'm unimpressed by Lemabeta's lawyerly distinctions above, and also by ]. I'll AGF that they ''were'' accidental, but OTOH, they surely ''ought'' to have taken enough care to realize they were violations; compare Voorts' examples. I suggest a block, not sure of what length. A couple of weeks? ] &#124; ] 21:36, 5 January 2025 (UTC).
::{{u|EF5}}, OK, I see. Blocks and bans are ], and the block log only logs blocks. ] &#124; ] 22:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC).

Latest revision as of 03:34, 9 January 2025

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    PerspicazHistorian

    PerspicazHistorian is blocked indefinitely from mainspace. Seraphimblade 03:34, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning PerspicazHistorian

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    NXcrypto (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 15:53, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    PerspicazHistorian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log


    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    WP:ARBIPA
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 17:57, 18 December 2024 - removed "discrimination" sidebar from the page of Hindutva (fascist ideology) even though the sidebar was inserted inside a section, not even the lead.
    2. 17:59, 18 December 2024 - tag bombed the highly vetted Hindutva article without any discussion or reason
    3. 10:15, 18 December 2024 - attributing castes to people withhout any sources
    4. 12:11, 18 December 2024 - edit warring to impose the above edits after getting reverted
    5. 17:09, 18 December 2024 - just like above, but this time he also added unreliable sources
    6. 18:29, 18 December 2024 - still edit warring and using edit summaries instead of talk page for conversation
    7. 14:46, 19 December 2024 (UTC) - filed an outrageous report on WP:ANI without notifying any editors. This report was closed by Bbb23 as "This is nothing but a malplaced, frivolous personal attack by the OP."
    Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
    • Already 2 blocks in last 4 months for edit warring.
    If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    I do not see any positive signs that this editor will ever improve. So far he has only regressed. Nxcrypto Message 15:53, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

    While going through this report, PerspicazHistorian has made another highly problematic edit here by edit warring and misrepresenting the sources to label the organisation as "terrorist". This primary source only provides a list of organisations termed by the Indian government as "terrorist" contrary to MOS:TERRORIST. Nxcrypto Message 03:12, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested


    Discussion concerning PerspicazHistorian

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by PerspicazHistorian

    • By far I am also concerned how my edits were forcefully reverted without a proper reason despite providing enough references. Please check how I am getting attacked by them on Chandraseniya_Kayastha_Prabhu Page.

    I didn't know about the three-revert-rule before User: Ratnahastin told me about this: User_talk:PerspicazHistorian. Please grant me one more chance, I will make sure not to edit war.

    • In the below statement by LukeEmily, As a reply I just want to say that I was just making obvious edit on Chandraseniya_Kayastha_Prabhu by adding a list of notable people with proper references. And according to Edit_warring#What_edit_warring_is it is clearly said: "Edits from a slanted point of view, general insertion or removal of material, or other good-faith changes are not considered vandalism." It was a good faith edit but others reverted it. I accept my mistake of not raising it on talk page as a part of Misplaced Pages:BOLD,_revert,_discuss_cycle.
    • As a clarification to my edit on Students' Islamic Movement of India, it can be clearly seen that I provided enough reference to prove its a terrorist organisation as seen in this edit. I don't know why is there a discussion to this obvious edit? Admins please correct me if I am wrong.
    @Valereee, Yes I read about 1RR and 0RR revert rules in Misplaced Pages:Edit warring#What edit warring is#Other revert rules. I now understand the importance of raising the topic on talk page whenever a consensus is needed. Thank You ! PerspicazHistorian (talk) 07:16, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    Yes, I will commit to that. PerspicazHistorian (talk) 13:10, 20 December 2024 (UTC) Moved comment to own section. Please comment, including replies, only in this section. Seraphimblade 13:19, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    At that time I was new to how AFD discussions worked. Later on when Satish R. Devane was marked for deletion, I respected the consensus by not interfering in it. The article was later deleted. PerspicazHistorian (talk) 11:54, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    • Hi @Doug Weller , I just checked your user page. You have 16 years (I am 19) of experience on wiki, you must be right about me. I agree that my start on Misplaced Pages has been horrible, but I am learning a lot from you all. I promise that I will do better, get more neutral here and contribute to the platform to my best. Please don't block me.
    P.S.- I don't know If I will be blocked or what , according to this enforcement rules, I just want to personally wish good luck to you for your ongoing cancer treatments, You will surely win this battle of Life. Regards. PerspicazHistorian (talk) 12:23, 21 December 2024 (UTC)Moved comment to own section. Please comment, including replies, only in this section.Valereee (talk) 15:30, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    • 1) I just asked an user @Fylindfotberserk if the page move is possible. What's wrong with it? I still have not considered putting a move request on talk page of article.
    2) Many of other sources are not raj era. Moreover I myself have deleted the content way before you pointing this out. Thank You ! PerspicazHistorian (talk) 06:29, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
    even @NXcrypto is seen engaged in edit wars before on contentious Indian topics. see1see2 PerspicazHistorian (talk) 06:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
    as mentioned by @Valereee before, Please discuss at talk, not here; we don't deal with content here. You can discuss content related topics on talk pages of articles rather than personally targeting a user here in enforcement. PerspicazHistorian (talk) 06:42, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
    @Valereee I once filed a complaint to find it @NXcrypto is a sock (out of a misunderstanding, as all were teamed up similarly on various pages). I think he felt it as a personal attack by me and filed this request for enforcement. Please interfere. PerspicazHistorian (talk) 06:47, 29 December 2024 (UTC) moving to correct section Valereee (talk) 13:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
    1)Yes I usually edit on RSS related topics, but to ensure a democratic view is maintained as many socks try to disrupt such articles. Even on Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh page, I just edited on request of talk page and added a graph. I don't think its a POV push.
    2) My main interest in editing is Hinduism and Indian History topics.
    3)There have been certain cases in past where I was blocked but if studied carefully they were result of me edit warring with socks(although, through guidance of various experienced editors and admins I learnt a SPI should be filed first). I have learnt a lot in my journey and there have been nearly zero case of me of edit warring this month.
    Please do not block me. PerspicazHistorian (talk) 14:09, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
    • @Valereee I beg apologies for the inconvenience caused, thanks for correcting me. I will now reply in my own statement section. @Bishonen I am a quick learner and professionally competent to edit in this encyclopedic space. Please consider reviewing this enforcement if its an counter-attack on me as mentioned in my previous replies. You all are experienced editors and I have good faith in your decision-making capability.PerspicazHistorian (talk) 08:27, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
    • @Vanamonde93@Bishonen I have edited content marked as "original research" and "mess" by you, I am ready to help removing any content that might be considered "poorly sourced" by the community. Please don't block me.PerspicazHistorian (talk) 08:27, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
    • @Valereee This enforcement started for edit-warring and now I feel its more concerned to my edited content(which I agree to cooperate and change wherever needed). After learning about edit wars, there has been no instance of me edit-warring, Please consider my request.--PerspicazHistorian (talk) 08:27, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
      @Valereee I am not a slow learner, I understand the concerns of all admins here. I will try my best to add only reliable sources, and discuss content in all talk pages, as I already mentioned here. PPicazHist (talk) 12:55, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
      @Valereee@UtherSRG I think admins should focus more on encouraging editors when they do good and correct when mistaken. I have made many edits, added many citations and created much articles which use fine citations. The enforcement started out of retaliation by nxcrypto, now moving towards banning me anyways. I started editing out of passion, and doing it here on wiki unlike those who come here just for pov pushes and disrupt article space(talking about socks and vandalizers on contentious Indian topics).
      The article prasada doesn't only has issue on citations, but the whole article is copypasted from the citations I added. I just wanted to point that out. Remaining about Misplaced Pages:CIR, I am currently pursuing Btech in cs from IIT delhi, idt I am a slow learner by any means. Still, happy new year to all ! PPicazHist (talk) 14:01, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
      @UtherSRG You mean to say, "The prasada is to be consumed by attendees as a holy offering. The offerings may include cooked food, fruits and confectionery sweets. Vegetarian food is usually offered and later distributed to the devotees who are present in the temple. Sometimes this vegetarian offering will exclude prohibited items such as garlic, onion, mushroom, etc. " is not copy pasted by this website? Is this also a wiki mirror website? How would you feel if I doubt your competence now? PPicazHist (talk) 14:47, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
      @ UtherSRG I just asked others to share their opinion in the enforcement. With all due respect, I don't think its wrong in any sense. PPicazHist (talk) 15:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
      To all the admins involved here,
      • I agree to keep learning and apologize if my previous edits/replies have annoyed the admins.
      • I have not edit warred since a month and please see it as my willingness to keep learning and getting better.
      • Please give me a chance, I understand concern of you all and respect your opinion in the matter. But please don't block me from editing from main article space. I promise that I will abide by all the rules and will learn from other editors.
      PPicazHist (talk) 15:22, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

    Statement by LukeEmily

    PerspicazHistorian also violated WP:BRD by engaging in an edit war with Ratnahastin who reverted his edits and restored an article to a stable version by admin. Also, I want to assume good faith but it is surprising that PerspicazHistorian claims that he did not know the three revert rule given that he has more than 800 edits.LukeEmily (talk)

    Statement by Doug Weller

    I'm involved so just commenting. I don't think this editor is competent. I had to give them a community sanction caste warning as they were making a mess of castes. See this earlier version of their talk page.]https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:PerspicazHistorian&oldid=1262289249] and User:Deb's comment that "It was very unwise of you to keep moving Draft:Satish R. Devane to article space when it has not passed review. As a direct result of your actions, a deletion discussion is taking place, and when this is complete and the article is deleted, you will be prevented from recreating it. Deb (talk) 14:44, 4 December 2024 (UTC)" There have also been copyright issues. I strongly support a topic ban. Doug Weller talk 11:00, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

    I won't be involved in the decision. No more treatments for me, just coast until... Doug Weller talk 12:50, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

    Statement by Toddy1

    This is another editor who appears to have pro-Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) and pro-Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) views. I dislike those views, but find it rather alarming that Misplaced Pages should seek to censor those views, but not the views of the political opponents. Imagine the outrage if we sought to topic-ban anyone who expressed pro-Republican views, but allowed Democrat-activists to say whatever they liked.

    A lot of pro-RSS/BJP editors turn out to be sock-puppets, so please can we do a checkuser on this account. And to be even-handed, why not checkuser NXcrypto too.

    If we want to talk about WP:CIR when editors make mistakes, look at the diff given by NXcrypto for "Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested" - it is the wrong diff. He/she did notify PerspicazHistorian - but the correct diff is .

    A topic ban from Indian topics would be unhelpful, unless given to both parties. Misplaced Pages is meant to be a mainstream encyclopaedia, and BJP and RSS are mainstream in India. Loading the dice against BJP and RSS editors will turn Misplaced Pages into a fringe encyclopaedia on Indian topics.

    I can see a good case for restricting PerspicazHistorian to draft articles and talk pages for a month, and suggesting that he/she seeks advice from more experienced editors. Another solution would be a one-revert rule to last six months.-- Toddy1 (talk) 13:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Statement by Capitals00

    I find the comment from Toddy1 to be entirely outrageous. What are you trying to tell by saying "Misplaced Pages is meant to be a mainstream encyclopaedia, and BJP and RSS are mainstream in India"? If you want us to entertain those who are in power, then we could never have an article like False or misleading statements by Donald Trump.

    You cannot ask topic ban for both editors without having any evidence of misconduct. Same way, you cannot ask CU on either user only for your own mental relief. It is a high time that you should strike your comment, since you are falsely accusing others that they "seek to censor" this editor due to his "pro-Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) and pro-Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) views". You should strike your comment. If you cannot do that, then I am sure WP:BOOMERANG is coming for you. Capitals00 (talk) 15:20, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Statement by Vanamonde93

    Toddy1: I, too, am baffled by your comment. We don't ban editors based on their POV; but we do ban editors who fail to follow our PAGs, and we certainly don't make excuses for editors who fail to follow our guidelines based on their POV. You seem to be suggesting we cut PH some slack because of their political position, and I find that deeply inappropriate. Among other things, I don't believe they have publicly stated anywhere that they support the BJP or the RSS, and we cannot make assumptions about them.

    That said, the fact that this was still open prompted me to spot-check PH's contributions, and I find a lot to be concerned about. This edit is from 29 December, and appears to be entirely original research; I cannot access all of the sources, but snippet search does not bear out the content added, and the Raj era source for the first sentence certainly does not support the content it was used for. Baji Pasalkar, entirely authored by PH, is full of puffery ("first to sacrifice his life for the cause of Swarajya", and poor sources (like this blog, and this book, whose blurb I leave you to judge), from which most of the article appears to be drawn. Appa (title), also entirely authored by PH, has original research in its very first sentence; the sources that I can access give passing mention to people whose names include the suffix "appa", and thus could perhaps be examples of usage, but the sources most certainly do not bear out the claim.

    I will note in fairness that I cannot access all the sources for the content I checked. But after spotchecking a dozen examples I have yet to find content PH wrote that was borne out by a reliable source, so I believe skepticism is justified. We are in territory where other editors may need to spend days cleaning up some of this writing. Bishonen If we're in CIR territory, just a normal indefinite block seems cleanest, surely? Or were you hoping that PH would help clean up their mess, perhaps by providing quotes from sources? That could be a pathway to contributing productively, but I'm not holding my breath. Vanamonde93 (talk) 18:00, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Thanks Bish: I agree, as my exchanges with PH today, in response to my first post here, have not inspired confidence. . Vanamonde93 (talk) 20:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Statement by UtherSRG

    I've mostly dealt with PH around Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ankur Warikoo (2nd nomination). They do not seem to have the ability to read and understand our policies and processes. As such, a t-ban is too weak. The minimum I would support is a p-block as suggested below, though a full indef is also acceptable. They could then ask for the standard offer when they can demonstrate they no longer have WP:CIR issues. - UtherSRG (talk) 20:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

    Based on these two edits, I'm more strongly leaning towards indef. - UtherSRG (talk) 12:27, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
    They now indicate they believe the article they edited was copied from one of the websites they used as a reference, when in reality the website is a mirror/scrape of the Misplaced Pages article. I believe we are firmly in WP:CIR territory here. - UtherSRG (talk) 14:25, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
    This is a mirror of the Misplaced Pages article. - UtherSRG (talk) 16:29, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

    Result concerning PerspicazHistorian

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

    PerspicazHistorian, can you explain your understanding of WP:edit warring and the WP:3RR rule? I'd like you to read thoroughly enough to also explain wny someone may be edit warring even if they aren't breaking 3RR. Valereee (talk) 21:58, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

    @PerspicazHistorian, that explanation of edit warring is a bit wanting. An edit war is when two or more editors revert content additions/removals repeatedly. Even a second reversion by the same editor can be considered edit warring. Best practice -- and what I highly recommend, especially for any inexperienced editor -- is the first time someone reverts an edit of yours, go to the talk page, open a section, ping the editor who reverted you, and discuss. Do you think you can commit to that?
    Re: your question on why your "obvious edit" was reverted: we don't deal with content issues here, only with behavior issues, but from a very quick look, the source is 50 years old, and using a list headed "TERRORIST ORGANISATIONS LISTED IN THE FIRST SCHEDULE OF THE UNLAWFUL ACTIVITIES (PREVENTION) ACT, 1967" that includes a certain organization as a source that the organization should be described as a terrorist organization is WP:ORIGINAL RESEARCH; in their revert NXcrypto provided an edit summary of "Not a reliable source for such a contentious label. See WP:LABEL." Please discuss at talk, not here; we don't deal with content here. Valereee (talk) 11:28, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    I'm seeing this as a CIR issue. I'd like input from other admins, if possible. I'm a little concerned that setting a tban from IPA is just setting a trap. Maybe a p-block from article space would be a kinder way to allow them to gain some experience? Valereee (talk) 13:28, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
    @PerspicazHistorian, have you seen how many times I or others have had to move your comments to your own section? This is an example of not having enough experience to edit productively. Please do not post in anyone else's section again. Valereee (talk) 16:09, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
    I do agree we're in CIR territory, and the concerns expressed are completely valid. I don't think this editor is ill-intentioned. They just don't seem very motivated to learn quickly. Well-intentioned-but-a-slow-learner is something that can only be fixed by actually practicing what you're bad at. I'd prefer an indef from article space which gives them one more chance to learn here before we send them off to mr.wiki or Simple English to try to learn. Not a hill I'm going to die on, though. Valereee (talk) 11:36, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
    @PerspicazHistorian, like Uther I have major concerns about the edit you made yesterday, which included replacing a citation needed tag with these sources. The first is a company that markets astrology services. The second is the site for a religious sect. Neither is a reliable source for explaining the concept of prasada in Wikivoice. You made this edit yesterday, after you'd confirmed here and on my talk that you understood sourcing policy.
    The reason for an indef from article space is to allow you to learn this policy: You would go into article talk and suggest sources to fix citation needed tags. Another editor would have to agree with you that the sources are reliable before they'd add them. Valereee (talk) 12:51, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
    • A tban from IPA for PerspicazHistorian would be a relief to many editors trying to keep this difficult area in reasonable shape. However, Valereee makes a good point about 'setting a trap': it's doubtful that PH would be able to keep to a tban even if they tried in good faith. I would therefore support a p-block from article space. Bishonen | tålk 16:48, 29 December 2024 (UTC).
      Vanamonde93, no, I don't really think PH can usefully help clean up their mess; I was following Valereee, who has been going into this in some depth, in attempting to keep some way of editing Misplaced Pages open for PH. It's a bit of a counsel of desperation, though; there is very little daylight between an indef and a p-block from article space. Yes, we are in CIR territory; just look at PH's recent supposed evidence on this page for NXcrypto being "engaged in edit wars before on contentious Indian topics": one diff of an opponent complaining on NXcrypto's page, and one diff of somebody reverting NXcrypto. What do those actually prove? That NXcrypto has opponents (big surprise). So, yes, as you suggest, I'll support an indef as well. Bishonen | tålk 20:09, 29 December 2024 (UTC).
    • Is there a length of time proposed for the p-ban or would it be indefinite? Barkeep49 (talk) 17:06, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
      I would say indefinite; not infinite, but I'd be wary about letting them back into articlespace without some kind of preclearance. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 18:39, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
    • It looks to me like there is a consensus for an indefinite partial block for PerspicazHistorian from article space. Unless any uninvolved admin objects within a day or so, I will close as such. Seraphimblade 06:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
      Given PH's recent slew of requests on multiple admin talk pages, yes, please do. - UtherSRG (talk) 12:58, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

    References

    1. "Significance of Different Type of Prasad in Hinduism For God". GaneshaSpeaks. Retrieved 2024-12-30.
    2. "What Is Prashad". Shree Swaminarayan Mandir Bhuj. Retrieved 2024-12-30.

    LaylaCares

    There is consensus to remove LaylaCares's EC flag. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning LaylaCares

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Vice regent (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 08:00, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    LaylaCares (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log


    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/ARBPIA
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 13:54, December 17, 2024 EC gaming


    If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    Pretty obvious case of EC gaming. Account created on Nov 17, 2024, then about 500 mostly minor edits followed by the first substantial edit ever was the creation of this article on Dec 17 (subsequently moved to draftspace).VR (Please ping on reply) 08:00, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested


    Discussion concerning LaylaCares

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by LaylaCares

    Statement by Aquillion

    Question: Assuming it's determined that they gamed the extended-confirmed restriction, would the page they created be WP:G5-able? I've asked the relevant question in more detail on the CSD talk page, since it is likely to come up again as long as we have such a broad restriction on effect, but I figured it was worth mentioning the issue here as well. --Aquillion (talk) 14:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

    Statement by Dan Murphy

    Please look at Draft:Hamas–UNRWA relations, written by the account under discussion. It's a hit job, originally placed in mainspace by this account. Anyone who wrote that shouldn't be allowed with 1 million miles of the topic.Dan Murphy (talk) 23:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

    Statement by starship.paint

    I've edited Draft:Hamas–UNRWA relations, so Dan Murphy's link is inaccurate for the purposes of this discussion. For the version of Draft:Hamas–UNRWA relations with content only written by LaylaCares, click this link. starship.paint (talk / cont) 10:45, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning LaylaCares

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • I agree that this looks like EC-gaming. Absent evidence that the edits themselves were problematic, I would either TBAN from ARBPIA or pull the EC flag until the user has made 500 edits that aren't rapidfire possibly LLM-assisted gnomish edits. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:02, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
    • I agree on the gaming piece and would suggest mainspace edits+time for restoration of EC. I will throw out 3 months + 500 (substantive) main space edits. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
    • I agree with Barkeep but I'd up it to 4 months. I don't believe that a TBAN is necessary at this point. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
    • @Aquillion: I agree that the draft should be G5'd, but will wait for consensus to develop here. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
      I don't think the wording of WP:ECR allows for deletion of a page that was created by an EC user. (ECR also seems to forget that anything other than articles and talkpages exists, but I think the most reasonable reading of provision A still allows for G5ing drafts at admins' discretion if the criteria are met.) That said, a consensus at AE can delete a page as a "reasonable measure that necessary and proportionate for the smooth running of the project". Deleting under that provision is not something to be done lightly, but I think for a case where a page's existence violates the spirit of an ArbCom restriction but not the letter, it'd be a fair time to do it. And/or this could make for a good ARCA question, probably after PIA5 wraps. -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 03:48, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
    • I would just pull EC and require the editor to apply via AE appeal for its restoration. They should be very clearly aware that receiving such restoration will require both substantial time and making real, substantive edits outside the area, as well as an understanding of what is expected of editors working in a CTOP area. Seraphimblade 01:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
    • I see a clear consensus here to remove the EC flag. For clarity, when I proposed a TBAN above it was because removing this flag is an ARBPIA TBAN as long as the ECR remedy remains in place; it's simply a question of whether the editor get the other privileges of EC or not. I don't see a consensus on what to do with the draft, but given that other editors have now made substantive contributions to it, I don't believe it's a good use of AE time to discuss the hypothetical further. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    AstroGuy0

    AstroGuy0 has been issued a warning for source misrepresentation by Voorts. No other reviewers have expressed any wish for further action. Seraphimblade 06:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning AstroGuy0

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Hemiauchenia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 03:41, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    AstroGuy0 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log


    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Contentious topics/Race and intelligence

    (Even though this isn't the usual R&I fare, I consider the intersection of "Race/ethnicity and sex offending", to come under "the intersection of race/ethnicity and human abilities and behaviour")

    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 03:19, 4 January 2025 Asserts that "A majority of the perpetrators were Pakistani men" despite the cited source (freely accessible at ) does not mention the word "Pakistani" or any variant once.
    2. 01:40, 4 January 2025 Describes the sex offender ring as "Pakistani" in the opening sentence when the cited source in the body says that they were only "mainly Pakistani"
    Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
    If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
    Made aware of contentious topics criterion: 01:52, 4 January 2025
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested


    Additional comments by editor filing complaint:

    This new user seems intent on POVPUSHING regarding "Asian/Muslim grooming gangs" and making contentious claims that are not backed up by sources. Hemiauchenia (talk) 03:44, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

    Discussion concerning AstroGuy0

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by AstroGuy0

    Statement by Iskandar323

    This rather dated "Asian/Muslim grooming gangs" malarkey from the UK has recently been pushed on social media by a certain US tech billionaire and is now recirculating in right-wing social media and the blogosphere, partly in connection with UK politics, so this trend could flare before it dims. Iskandar323 (talk) 03:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning AstroGuy0

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    The second diff was before AG0 received a CTOP alert. I've alerted AG0 to other CTOPs that they've edited in, and I am going to warn them for their conduct in diff #1 without prejudice to other admins determining that further action is warranted. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
    I also looked at the source, and it indeed does not in any way support the claim made; it does not mention "Pakistani" even once. This is a fairly new editor, but I think we need to make it very clear to them that misrepresentation of sources is not something we will tolerate. Seraphimblade 04:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
    Given that AstroGuy0 has already been issued a warning, I don't think anything further is necessary, and will close as such unless any uninvolved admin shortly objects. Seraphimblade 18:23, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

    Lemabeta

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Lemabeta

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    EF5 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Lemabeta (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log


    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Eastern Europe#Final decision
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 5 Jan 2025 - Made a draft on a European ethnic group, which they are currently barred from doing.
    2. 4 Jan 2025 - Started a page on a Georgian ethnologist.


    If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
    • Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above.
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    I likely filed this improperly, but to sum it up they continue to make pages in a scope they were banned from. EF 20:25, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    On the bullet point, I’ve never filed an AE report before, and I wasn’t sure if “block” meant T-ban, p-block, etc., so I just picked whichever one made the most sense. EF 21:45, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
    (Not sure if I’m allowed to reply here) I’ve never filed an AE report before, and I wasn’t sure if “block” meant T-ban, p-block, etc., so I just picked whichever one made the most sense. EF 21:45, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
    Response to Bishonen. Moved from results section. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
    (RES to Bishonen) That's fair. When starting the AE, it only gave me nine options, none of which seemed to fit right. The third bullet ("Previously given a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction or warned for conduct in the area of conflict on DIFF by _____") didn't seem to fit, as the sanction wasn't for verbal conduct. EF 22:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Here

    Discussion concerning Lemabeta

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Lemabeta

    Yeah, my bad. Didn't realize translation of a page of ethnographic group would count as a violation of my topic ban about "history of the Caucasus and its cultural heritage, broadly construed" I recognize my mistake. --Lemabeta (talk) 20:30, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    Ethnographic groups and cultural heritage are related but distinct concepts. An ethnographic group refers to a community of people defined by shared ancestry, language, traditions, and cultural identity. In contrast, cultural heritage refers to the *practices, artifacts, knowledge, and traditions preserved or inherited from the past. But cultural heritage is indeed a component of ethnographic groups.
    So i don't believe ethnographic group should be considered as either history of the Caucasus or cultural heritage. Lemabeta (talk) 20:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
    In my opinion, cultural heritage (both tangible and intangible) emerges from ethnographic groups but does not define the group itself. Lemabeta (talk) 20:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
    I think ethnographic groups fall under the category of Ethnography, or even socio-cultural antropology but for sure not cultural heritage. Lemabeta (talk) 21:09, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
    I understand, i already apologized on my talk page for this accident. I will not repeat this mistake again. Lemabeta (talk) 21:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning Lemabeta

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • I don't see Lemabeta mentioned in the case itself, but they're currently under a topic ban imposed by a consensus of AE admins from "the history of the Caucasus and its cultural heritage, broadly construed". theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
      To be fair, when you click above to add a new enforcement request, the template states:
      ;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ]
      <!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> voorts (talk/contributions) 20:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Didn't realize translation of a page of ethnographic group would count as a violation of my topic ban about "history of the Caucasus and its cultural heritage, broadly construed" @Lemabeta: what did you think "the history of the Caucasus and its cultural heritage" meant? I think it's pretty obvious that that an article on an ethnic group from the Caucasus and about an ethnologist who writes about that region is covered by your topic ban. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
      Note that I've deleted Draft:Rachvelians as a clear G5 violation. I think Mate Albutashvili is a bit more of a questionable G5. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
      Your definition of "ethnographic group" includes the phrases "shared ancestry" (i.e., history), and "shared ... traditions" and "shared ... cultural identity" (i.e., cultural heritage). Your attempt to exclude "ethnographic group" from either of the two categories in your topic ban is entirely unpersuasive, particularly since your topic ban is to be "broadly construed". voorts (talk/contributions) 21:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
      @Tamzin: this doesn't seem like a mistake to me, but I'm okay with a logged warning here. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
      @Bishonen: This is about violating the TBAN. Per my response to leek, I think the issue is with the AE request template, which is a bit unclear. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
      @Bishonen: I don't think a block is needed here, but the next violation, definitely. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
      @EF5: They were "reviously given ... contentious topic restriction", the topic ban at issue. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:09, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
    • @Lemabeta: Not every single thing you could write about an ethnic group would fall under cultural history, but that's not really relevant on the Rachvelians page, where the History section was entirely about their cultural history, even containing the words highlighting their ethnographic and cultural identity. There's a reason we use the words "broadly construed" on most TBANs, and a reason we encourage people to act like they're TBANned from a broader area than they are. (Consider: Would you feel safe driving under a bridge where clearance is exactly the same height as your vehicle? Or would you need a few inches' gap to feel safe doing it?)This does seem like a good-faith misunderstanding, so if you will commit to not making it again in the future, I think this can be closed with a clarification/warning. But that's an important "if". If you want to argue semantics, then the message that sends to admins is that you don't intend to comply with the TBAN, in which case the next step would be a siteblock. -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 21:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
    • EF5, I don't understand your "Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above" statement, can you please explain what it refers to? This T-ban? Lemabeta's block log is blank.
    That said, I'm unimpressed by Lemabeta's lawyerly distinctions above, and also by their apology for "accidental violations". I'll AGF that they were accidental, but OTOH, they surely ought to have taken enough care to realize they were violations; compare Voorts' examples. I suggest a block, not sure of what length. A couple of weeks? Bishonen | tålk 21:36, 5 January 2025 (UTC).
    EF5, OK, I see. Blocks and bans are very different, and the block log only logs blocks. Bishonen | tålk 22:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC).