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			= December 26 =
	{{Misplaced Pages:Reference_desk/Archives/Humanities/2013 October 5}}

			== What would the president Trump brokered peace treaty in Ukraine look like? ==
	{{Misplaced Pages:Reference_desk/Archives/Humanities/2013 October 6}}

			I know this is probably speculation, but going by what I've read in a few articles - how would the new president sort this out?
	{{Misplaced Pages:Reference_desk/Archives/Humanities/2013 October 7}}

			- the war stops
	= October 8 =

			- Russia withdraws all troops from the invaded regions of Ukraine
	== Hypothetical US law question - Illegal spying? ==

			- Ukraine withdraws all troops from the same regions
	I realize that this will likely vary by state but I have a hypothetical legal question regarding laws in the US. Note: I am not looking for legal advice. It's just a curiosity.

			- these regions become a DMZ, under control of neither party for the next 25 years, patrolled by the United Nations (or perhaps the USA/Britain and China/North Korea jointly)
	Imagine someone, I'll call them a snoop, finds a way to hide a video camera in someone else's house and they manage to record the homeowner selling drugs, beating their kids, or some other crime. I would think that if the tape were turned over to the police that the homeowner could be arrested for those crimes, correct? Even though the snoop that put the camera in the house did it without the homeowners permission or knowledge. I realize that the snoop would have cause to worry about the potential legal trouble of breaking in to the house, illegally spying on the homeowner, etc. but I'm not as concerned about trouble that they would be in. Though if you want to tell me about that as well, that would be welcome. Is there anywhere in the US where this video evidence could not be used to arrest and try the homeowner? <span style="font-family:monospace;">]</span>\|] 02:23, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
	:Since the Supreme Court decided that it was going to take part of the Fourteenth Amendment out of context and ], this is presumably a nationwide issue, not a state-by-state one. ] (]) 03:03, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
	:::"Imposing" rights is a bit of an oxymoron. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 04:33, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
	::::Depends on the context, I read Nyttend to be saying one government telling another government what rights it must not trample which was one effect of the 14th Amendment. The recent case of ] reminded local governments that it wasn't about what rights they decided on locally but what one might describe as the imposition of the 2nd Amendment on the city of Chicago.
	::::States/localities can & do have even greater protections against say being filmed or audio recorded than simply the Bill of Rights or US statutes.] 07:16, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
	:::::"Imposing rights" is different; the point is that the Court imposed restrictions on the states and their subentities, e.g. municipalities, misusing a section that's basically meant to prevent the existence of state laws that discriminate by race. ] (]) 12:01, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::Side issue, but as our incorporation article attests, the "misuse of one section" repaired an earlier misuse of the 14th amendment's original intent, understanding, and plain meaning - which ''was'' to incorporate. The restriction of the 14th amendment by the post Civil War Supreme Court was the true unwarranted imposition by the judicial over the legislative.] (]) 23:20, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
	::::::Did that include conferring second amendment rights upon all citizens? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 16:56, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

			- Russia promises to leave Ukraine alone for 25 years
	::It's a question of ], and the easy answer is, it's no good as condemnatory evidence if the ''police'' are in anyway involved in an illegal search. (If the evidence is disculpatory it will almost certainly be allowed.) If there's no standing law or precedent in a state, it will be up to the judge to decide. You can be sure they are going to weigh heavily against illegally obtained evidence. In a case like murder a judge might allow, say, the victims' cell phone recorded video to be admitted if he was killed and there was no other direct physical evidence, under, say, the ] exception, even if the victim didn't walk into the killers house with permission to be recording. A judge will exclude such evidence if he thinks the case can be proven without it in order to avoid grounds for an appeal. This is extremely speculative, case dependent, and as you say, relative to the state involved. ] (]) 03:29, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
	:::So how is that different from planting a camera <u>and</u> evidence in an innocent person's house? Seem like some kind of ] that could be inadmissable in court. ] (]) 11:15, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
	::Planting false evidence is different from what was mentioned above. It would bring evidence tampering and perhaps perjury and other charges, not entrapment, which is a defense, and means the government officer enticed the accused to commit a crime he would not otherwise have committed. If evidence is not obvious and conclusive to the layman the prosecution and/or defense will hire expert witnesses to testify about it. Overseeing this process is one of the chief roles a judge plays. See ] for standards generally used in the US. ] (]) 16:55, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
	:To Dismas' original question: .] 02:14, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

			- Ukraine promises not to join NATO or the EU for 25 years
	So, if I'm understanding the comments thus far, the video would likely be thrown out and the homeowner would go unpunished because the video was obtained illegally even though the snoop did not do anything to encourage the homeowner to carry out the crime and thus entrap them. Seems odd but okay. <span style="font-family:monospace;">]</span>\|] 03:06, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	:The overall is it depends; especially since many jurisdictions are only now starting to pass laws & set court precedence (back to μηδείς's point about admissibility--lots of disagreement between judges since there is no X v. Y to cite that went through all appeal levels & had legal journals ponder it for years) to catch up with smartphone & mini cams/mics.
	:Aside from that, even with age old precedence & all the evidence admitted just because you go to trial doesn't mean the jury (or appeals court) will agree with the prosecution, so your "unpunished" comment could relate to most every crime. I could think of at least 5 "media" trials in the last few decades where the jury 'shocked the world' in spite of not having any of the complications in your question. ] 03:37, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	::To emphasize MD's point, common law has had centuries to develop ways to deal with things like hearsay evidence, and much of it developed within the single jurisdiction of England. Now you have dozens of states and provinces dealing with uncertain law regarding technologies that are not even two generations old yet. ] (]) 16:41, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

			- A peace treaty will be signed
	== Disturbing images in Revelation ==

			- The can will be kicked down the road for 25 years, at which point more discussions or wars will commence
	In the book of Revelation, what is the point behind all the disturbing images? Is Heaven supposed to be aversive or frightening? ] (]) 13:59, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
	:The book itself was written as a letter intended to comfort Christians who were being persecuted. The core message is that God will eventually prevail and destroy the evil in the world. The images are primarily symbols that would have been well-understood by their audience. And as to them being "disturbing", that was the point. You don't get people's attention about good and evil by using images of hearts and flowers. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 16:08, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

			So maybe the Americans will say "this is the best deal you're going to get, in the future we're going to be spending our money on our own people and no-one else - if you don't take it, we'll let the Russians roll right over you and good luck to you".
	:I thought the idea was that this is what those not raised up to heaven in the ] would face. Then we basically get hell on Earth for the rest of us. ] (]) 16:09, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

			Is this basically what is being said now? I think this is what Vance envisioned. ] (]) 03:01, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
	:You asked "Is Heaven supposed to be aversive or frightening?", I think you're confusing this with sayings 'Heaven comes to Earth' & the like that usually refer to what happens long after what Revelation foretells. The book/"disturbing images" is more about the 'final battle' of 'good' & 'evil'/'saved' & 'unsaved', not Heaven but more about Hell's last offensive one could say.] 17:23, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
			:{{small\|The downside is that the residents of the buffer zone will be compelled to eat their pets. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 03:12, 26 December 2024 (UTC)}}
			::{{small\|Or each other's pets. ] (]) 21:52, 1 January 2025 (UTC)}}

			:You seem to be overlooking one of the major obstacles to peace -- unless it suffers a stinging military defeat, Russia won't withdraw from territories belonging to 1990s Ukraine which it's formally annexed -- Crimea and ]... -- ] (]) 03:14, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
	:The account can also be interpreted to include a prolonged period of liberty, peace, prosperity, and health. Now, I will not claim to have a very ''usual'' interpretation of Christianity, but I would argue that something like can readily be interpreted to mean that the world powers will create a lasting peace in Syria (where the warring factions face one another across the Euphrates), put aside weapons of mass destruction, and begin implementing a world without oppression, war, poverty, or disease. I think such an interpretation of the Revelation makes a lot more sense than the usual lugubrious reading, because how do you notice all the disasters and tribulations of the end times in a world that staggers from one set of concentration camps and droughts and oppressive governments to the next? Why should any parent, let alone a wise God, reward children who stage a "nuclear apocalypse" with a brand new world before demanding they learn how to use the one they have? But what makes a lot of sense is that if you can create a world where people do everything as best as fallible mortals can, sooner or later it will go to crap again, because nothing in this world lasts forever. And when that happens, you'll have something you never had before: a crime without an excuse, a First Cause of evil in the world. I mean, for all I know even Hitler had some Jewish kid beat him up and take his lunch money when he was a boy. Create the best possible world, and you "drain the lake to catch the fish". Satan is revealed from his hiding. ] (]) 03:17, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
			::You're right, Russia won't withdraw from territories belonging to 1990s Ukraine, but it is likely that Ukraine does not expect Russia to do so too. Restoring to pre-war territories and the independent of ], ], ], ], and ] are the best Ukraine can hope for. ] (]) 10:10, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			:Never heard of any such plan. 25 years? This is completely made up. Can't say I'm surprised since this is the same guy who asked the previous "question". My understanding is that Misplaced Pages and the Reference Desk are not a forum for debate. This is not Facebook. But this guy seems to think otherwise. Anyway, there's no way that the territories Russia has annexed will ever go back to the Ukraine. The only question which remains is what guarantees can be given to Ukraine that Russia will never try something like this ever again and eat it up piecemeal. The best answer (from Ukraine's point of view) would have been that it join NATO but of course Russia won't have it. If not that, then what? This's exactly where the "art of the deal" comes in. Speculating in advance on Misplaced Pages is pointless. Better to do that on Facebook. ] (]) 03:49, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			::You're right, by policy Misplaced Pages is not a forum and ]. But attend also to the policy ]. Oh, and the guideline ] is another good one. ] ] 10:27, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			:: Further, it's a bit pointless to tell an OP that WP is not a forum or a soapbox, but then immediately engage in debate with them about the matter they raise. -- ] </sup></span>]] 18:57, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			:A politician's butt dominates his brain. What he is going to do is more important than what he had said. ] (]) 09:57, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			:Expect that a concept of a peace plan will be ready soon after day one. Until then we can only speculate whose concept. Will it be Musk's, Trump's, Vance's, Rubio's, Hegseth's, Kellogg's? The latter's plan is believed to involve Ukraine ceding the Donbas and Luhansk regions, as well as Crimea, to Russia,<sup></sup> after which the negotiators can proclaim: "]. ]."  --] 10:17, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

			:* There may also be peace plans required for a possible US incursion in Canada and Greenland / Denmark. All three are members of the NATO, so this may be tricky. --] (]) 18:42, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
	:Giving an answer would depend on where you place the emphasis - on "disturbing" or "images"; and it also depends on which of the images in Revelation you are talking about. Not all the images relate to Heaven. To the Christian with wisdom and understanding, Revelation does not frighten, but enlightens of the past, present and future, and encourages perseverance. ] (]) 12:28, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

			Isn't this one of those "crystal ball" things we are supposed to avoid here? - ] \| ] 21:40, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
	:Revelation was intended to comfort its audience, in a time when it appeared Christianity would be destroyed. The core message of the Revelation is "I am coming ''soon.''" Two millennia later doesn't exactly qualify as "soon" in human terms, although in terms of the age of the universe it does. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 14:09, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

			:{{agree}} ] (]) 00:37, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
	::The problem with Revelation is that, of probably ALL of the books of the Christian bible, it is the one with the least amount of agreement among theologians, both mainstream and on the fringes, as to exactly what it means. You'll find reliable, well respected interpretations of the book ranging from literal word-for-word prophesy of exactly what will happen at the ], to coded language which ''symbolicly'' describes the victory of good over evil in a general sense, to a ] of sorts which was describing and/or inspiring Christians to rise up against the Roman Empire. It's really a hard book to extract meaning out of; whether one reads it "blind" without knowing the historical and literary context in which it was written. Even if one does know that background, it's still quite hard to get into. The opening bits are fairly straight forward, the letters to the ] seem to be fairly straightforward guidance on how to run a church or fix common congregational problems; the don't read all that different than the Pauline Epistles in that regard. Then you get into the stuff with the four living beings with the six wings covered in eyes, and it goes all pear shaped. John, unfortunately, didn't leave us with a key to interpret his work, and that would be really helpful here. The best thing to offer is to read what respected scholars from different traditions have to say on it, and also read it yourself, and come to your own conclusions. --]''''']''''' 02:00, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
			::If the OP provided an actual source for this claim, then it could be discussed more concretely. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 00:40, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::It is not a claim, but a question, "What is being said now about the prospects and form of a Trump-brokered peace treaty?" Should the OP provide a source for this question? If the question is hard to answer, it is not by lack of sources (I gave one above), but because all kinds of folks are saying all kinds of things about it.  --] 19:27, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
			:Whatever the plan may be, Putin reportedly doesn't like it.<sup></sup>  --] 22:38, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

			== ID card replacement ==
	== Number of nonreligious people who study the Bible ==

			In California you can get a drivers' license (DL) from the DMV, which both serves as an ID card and attests that you are authorized to drive a car. Alternatively, from the same DMV, you can get a state ID card, which is the same as a DL except it doesn't let you drive. The card looks similar and the process for getting it (wait in line, fill in forms, get picture taken) is similar, though of course there is no driving test.
	Are there nonreligious people who study the Bible academically and rigorously and who do not have a religious background/affiliation since birth? Are there nonreligious people who have gotten inspired or enlightened by the Bible and God's actions and words? ] (]) 14:04, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
	:There are plenty of people who study it academically and historically as a work of literature. Whether ones believes in it from a religious perspective or not, it's a singularly important book in world history so it will be studied by anyone interested in that kind of thing. ] (]) 14:33, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
	:As for the second part of your question, we have an article on ]. - ] ] 14:38, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
	::Sorry, I misunderstood what you were asking. I am sure there are people who have taken away useful ideas from the Bible, even if they don't embrace the religious aspect. You don't have to accept the alleged divine origin of the ], for instance, in order to believe that it's a bad idea to be jealous of people, or to kill them. - ] ] 14:48, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
	:::Hypothetically, anything is possible. Now, can you actually list some nonreligious or nontheistic people who become inspired by the biblical narratives and behave in the world to imitate the God in the Bible? ] (]) 15:03, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
	:::::<small>? And I'm saying this as a Catholic. It feels a bit like you are fishing for something with this question. ] (]) 16:42, 8 October 2013 (UTC)</small>
	::::::<small>Hence the term "]". ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 16:53, 8 October 2013 (UTC) </small>
	:::::::<small>Holy crap, that's actually a thing?!? I always got mildly annoyed when I saw the word "trolling" in a fishing context, as I just thought people were misspelling ] due to having seen the other word on message boards and such (where I thought it had come about exclusively due to its practitioners being mendacious little thugs who ambush threads and then go back to ]). Learn something new every day! <span style="font-family:Garamond;">]]]</font></span> <small>17:04, 8 October 2013 (UTC) </small>
	:::::::: <small> You certainly do learn something new every day. You've been on WP since 2007, and been hanging around the Ref Desks since 2010, but never came across the terminology of internet trolling until now? That is very surprising indeed. You even have a mini-essay on your user page, "On the Harms of Anti-Vandal Zealotry". That is not in any way a put down, just an expression of my surprise. But then, I'm constantly hearing about popular singers who've been "taking the world by storm" for years, sold umpteen million albums, had a gazillion squared utubular hits and so on, but their name meant absolutely nothing to me. Literally nothing. It all depends on the circles in which one moves. -- ] </sup></font></span>]] 18:11, 8 October 2013 (UTC) </small>
	:::::::::{{small\|The ''fishing'' term, not the internet term necessarily. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 18:42, 8 October 2013 (UTC)}}
	:::::::::<small>Hah, forgive my imprecision. Bugs has it right: I didn't know "trolling" is a real means of fishing for actual fish, and not just something that assholes do on the internet. I had thought it was '''exclusively''' a ] of ], not a description of ]. The practice of "trolling" message boards I've been aware of for quite some time, alas. Only the etymology and the technique performed on actual boats escaped me. <span style="font-family:Garamond;">]]]</font></span> 21:20, 8 October 2013 (UTC) </small>
	::::::::::<small>Just to keep the tangent going, I knew of the term "trolling" in a fishing context since before the Internet was much more than some silicon valley geeks and defense contractors. The term predates the Internet usage by a long time, and is quite familiar to anyone who fishes. --]''''']''''' 01:50, 10 October 2013 (UTC)</small>
	::::Take a look at ] and remove those that also appear in ] will give you those who don't believe in god but also believe in not murdering people. ] (]) 15:42, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
	:::::The Bible has plenty of passages which not only doesn't forbid murder, but actively encourages it. . So atheistic murderers could in theory have been inspired by the Bible. --] (]) 16:03, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

			If you need a replacement drivers' license, you can request it online or through one of the DMV's self-service kiosks installed in various locations. That's reasonably convenient.
	:You may find ] interesting. ] (]) 16:33, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

			If you need a replacement ID card, you have to request it in person at a DMV office, involving travel, waiting in line, dealing with crowds, etc. DMV appointment shortens the wait but doesn't get rid of it. Plus the earliest available appointments are several weeks out.
	:I think there's some underlying conceptual fallacy in the question. Anyone who reads or even encounters ideas from a religious document by hearsay has "a religious background". They have already been touched, to some degree, not only by the document but by its presentation and the circumstances that led them to read it. Is a person ''strongly'' religious? Hard to say. Hard to define. Who is more religious, someone who points out that the person ahead in line dropped a twenty, or someone who handles a rattlesnake? Depends on who's answering. You can of course go by self-identification, but this may be outright falsified, and far more often is confused and poorly grounded in fact. I'm afraid the question comes apart like smoke in my hands. ] (]) 19:51, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

			My mom is elderly, doesn't drive, doesn't handle travel or waiting in line well, and needs a replacement ID card. I'm wondering why this discrepancy exists in the replacement process. Not looking for legal advice etc. but am just wondering if I'm overlooking something sane, rather than reflexive ]. Thanks. ] (]) 19:39, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
	== Woman president ==

			:European (Brit) here, so responding with logic rather than knowledge, but . . . . If a replacement ID could be requested remotely and sent, it would probably be easier for some nefarious person to do so and obtain a fake ID; at least if attendance is required, the officials can tell that the 25-y-o illegal immigrant (say) they're seeing in front of them doesn't match the photo they already have of the elderly lady whose 'replacement' ID is being requested.
	Why no woman has been elected as US president? --] (]) 15:38, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
			:Drivers' licences have the additional safeguard that drivers are occasionally (often?) stopped by traffic police and asked to produce them, at which point discrepancies may be evident. {The poster formerly known as 87.812.230.195} ] (]) 00:30, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
	:Probably for similar reasons that only about a few dozen have been elected national leaders throughout the world and then only in the last <s>50</s><s>40</s> 54 years. It might be even more curious why no woman has ever won a major US party nomination for president, though the three that I'm aware of winning VP nods all had their tickets lose in the general.] 15:59, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
			::Thanks, I guess there is some sense to that, though I haven't been stopped by police in quite a few years. I reached the DMV by phone and they say they won't issue an actual duplicate ID card: rather, they want to take a new picture of my mom and use that on the new card. Of course that's fine given that we have to go there anyway, but it's another way the DL procedure is different. ] (]) 00:46, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
	:(ec) ] has a list. Why have none been successfully elected is due to the electoral system of the United States which heavily favors a fight between two parties to gain ] votes. This leaves many minor parties with next to no chance of getting their candidate elected. For example, in the 2012 election the ] nominated ] as their presidential candidate, the party gained 468,907 votes (~0.36%) but that got them zero out of 538 Electoral College votes. When women have sought the Democrat or Republican party nomination, then have lost out to male candidates. In the 2008 election ] only narrowly lost out to Barack Obama for the Democrat nomination. ] (]) 16:02, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
			:::What purpose does the ID card serve? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 04:27, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
	::Because none have received a majority in the Electoral College. ] (]) 17:42, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
			::::See ]. These cards can be used for such purposes as boarding a plane, purchasing alcohol or cigarettes where proof of age is required, cashing a check, etc. Most folks use their driver's license for these purposes, but for the minority that does not drive, some form of official id is required from time to time, hence the delivery of such cards by states. --] (]) 13:34, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::I'm just wondering under what circumstances a shut-in would ever use it. The OP could maybe explain. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 21:52, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::OP did not describe a "shut-in". And anyway, have you ever heard the well-known phrase-or-saying "none of your fucking business"? ] (]) 21:59, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::Are you the OP? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 22:46, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Not OP and not a shut-in, but ID is necessary for registration for some online services (including ID requirements for access to some state and federal websites that administer things like taxes and certain benefits). I've had to provide photos/scans of photo ID digitally for a couple other purposes, too, though I can't remember off the top of my head what those were. I think one might have been to verify an I-9 form for employment. And the ID number from my driver's license for others. At least a couple instances have been with private entities rather than governments. The security implications always make me wary. -- ] (]) 23:05, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::Virtually all of the private information of US citizens has been repeatedly compromised in the last decade. Not a single company or government entity has faced consequences, and no US legislation is in the works to protect our private information in the future. For only one small example, the personal info of 73 million AT&T account holders was released on the dark web this year. In the US, if you're a private company, you can do just about anything and get away with it. If you're a private citizen, there's an entirely separate set of laws for you. ] (]) 21:25, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
			:Unless someone affiliated with the CA DMV drops by here, I'm afraid none of us are going to be able to tell you why something is the way it is with them. Essentially it's requesting people to guess or predict at why X ''might'' be the case. Have you tried and asking them for an answer? You and/or her could also her CA state elected representatives and let them know your feelings on the matter. Sometimes representatives' offices will assist a constitutent with issues they're having involving government services ("constitutent services"). --] (]) 01:43, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
			:If your mom is old and her medical condition affects her ability to perform daily activities (she couldn't handle the travel or waiting in line well), she can ask her medical doctor to complete a DS 3234 (Medical Certification) form to verify her status. Then you can help her to fill out a DS 3235 application form on the DMV website and submit the required documents accordingly. ] (]) 09:14, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

			::{{tq\|I'm wondering why this discrepancy exists in the replacement process.}}
	:: Market diamond, what happened in 1973? Women have been getting to be top dog ] or ]. -- ] </sup></font></span>]] 17:54, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
			:The ] contributed to the discrepancy in the replacment process, as did several notable fake ID rings on both coasts. In other words, "this is why we can't have nice things". ] (]) 21:17, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::(ec) Wasn't the question "elected", not the few appointed or co-acting etc. of non-"free world" nations? Your 2nd list does confirm my memory that the first was in the 60s so I take back my strike should be 50(4) not 40, good find there.] 18:18, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
			::{{small\|We can't have nice things because those in power regulate the allocation of goods. To distinguish between the deserving and undeserving they need people to have IDs.  --] 10:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC)}}
	::Because none have received a majority in the Electoral College? ] (]) 19:03, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
	:::Even with a majority of the Electoral College it doesn't always elect you: ]. <small>Am I seeing double ;)</small>] 21:08, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
	::::Jackson had the plurality, not the majority. As regards the OP's question, keep in mind that very few women have sought the office in the first place. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 21:21, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
	::::::Ahh, your right Baseball Bugs. Jackson's writings tend to gloss over that with some interesting hyperbole.] 01:59, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::That's not to say that the accusations of a "corrupt bargain" were not justified. On the contrary, it looked very fishy. Jackson eventually had his time, though. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 05:15, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	:::::The gender of a president is irrelevant anyway, any president should try to do the best for all his citizens, of both genders. A woman can be as great or as awful a president as a man. --] (]) 21:59, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
	::::::Just like the race of a president ''should be'' irrelevant. There are a lot of things that "should be" irrelevant, yet somehow are seen as relevant. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 23:05, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::Agreed, however it's telling to see the biggest demo shifts between Kerry 2004 & Obama 2008 .] 02:34, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

			= December 27 =
	:In addition to the factors mentioned above:
	:* Women are significantly underrepresented in the offices from which US Presidential (and VP) candidates are typically chosen from: ], ], ], ], and senior business or military positions. So the pool of plausible women candidates meeting the job experience expectation has been, and still is, relatively shallow.
	:* Historically a significant fraction of US voters have been unwilling to vote for any women candidate for president. Here is Gallup data from (by 2012 the number had gone up %; by comparison, the number for male candidates, though not polled, would have been in the high nineties at all times).
	:] (]) 23:44, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
	:::Of course Americans don't want to vote for anybody for president. In the last election one major party candidate had the looks and demeanor of ], and the Democratic candidate was a golf player named Barack Obama. ] (]) 19:52, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	::::Don't forget Ryan, who was compared unfavorably to Eddie Munster. There was definitely no excessive facial attractiveness in the last election. And there's a number of old geezers in the House and Senate who would be best off confining their public appearances to the radio. For 2016, maybe we could arrange to have Kathy Ireland for the Republicans and Cindy Crawford for the Democrats. That could make things interesting and improve voter turnout. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 00:45, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
	:::::More like ] for the Republicans and ] for the Democrats. ] (]) 01:50, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
	::::::That could work too. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 02:17, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

	== ~~Salaama~~ ~~Hut~~ in ~~Toronto~~ ==		== Building containing candle cabinets ==

			Is there a term (in pretty much any language) for a separate building next to a church, containing candle cabinets where people place votive candles? I've seen this mostly in Romania (and in at least one church in Catalonia), but suspect it is more widespread. (I've also seen just candle cabinets with no separate building, but I'm guessing that there is no term for that.) - ] \| ] 01:40, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
	In the Somali diaspora article, there is a picture of a restaurant in Toronto. Where is that in Toronto, I mean is it in North York or Etobicoke? Or also, what is the address? Thanks. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 17:59, 8 October 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:. ] (]) 18:19, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

			:] ''might'' cover it, but I suspect there's a more specific term in at least one language. {The poster fornerly known as 87.81.230.195} ] (]) 21:49, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
	== Australia census by ethnicity and religions and by cities and divisions in the federal government ==
			::Somebody contributed a couple of photos of these kind of cabinets to commons. ] and ]. Both are in Romania, and outdoor. I suppose the purpose of the cabinet is to protect the candles from the weather? I see pictures of indoor ''racks'' for candles. One example is ] which is an upcoming Commons picture of the day. This small dark metal shed full of dripping wax is apparently located in or near to the rather pretty and well-lit ], but I saw nothing to tell me the spatial relationship. Some discussion, again about Romanian Eastern Orthodox traditions, , which calls them ... candle cabinets. (They protect the candles from wind and rain, and protect the church from the candles.) ] ] 11:11, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
			::: {{ping\|Card Zero}} the things you are posting are, precisely, candle cabinets. What I'm talking about are structures like a proper building, but with just a portal, no doors as such. Here's a rare non-Romanian example I photographed in 2001: ]. Remarkably, I don't see any Romanian examples that really show the structure, they are all too close-in detailed. I'll try to see if I can find an example I may have shot but not yet uploaded. - ] \| ] 04:44, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

			= December 28 =
	Is there a website or part of the Australian Government website that gives you the access to census data on which cities in Australia has the largest population of Bangladeshis or Muslims and which divisions in the federal government has the largest population of Bangladeshis and Muslims like UK census website? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 18:10, 8 October 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:The Australian Census site kept giving me "Ancestry" but just in general terms from my searches. If you put in 'Australian Census Banglaeshis' to Google I did it isn't at the census page but the 'immi.gov.au' site.] 18:50, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

			== Truncated Indian map in Misplaced Pages ==
	:No, you can't. Chiefly because the ] is not an organ of the government of the United Kingdom and uses different statistical and reporting criteria. Using immigration data as a proxy won't get you self-identified ancestry data like census will. I'm sorry, but you'll have to face the fact that Australian census data on ethnicity does not map neatly onto your personal view of ethnicity. Moreover, "divisions" in the Australian context often refers to a bureaucratic structure, and I strongly doubt that Government is going to provide ethnic or religious data on its employees in that way. ] (]) 20:36, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
	::I read it as OP asking if the Australian website displays data in a way that is like the one in the UK, not if the UK site gives Australia data or if the two are connected, though I'm seeing what you mean Fifelfoo as far as ethnicity in my searches on the Australian Census sites. Perhaps OP could re-phrase so there is no doubt.] 21:15, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
	:::The Australian government collects Australian data in an '''Australian manner.''' This manner will be fundamentally different to the '''manner''' in which the UK government collects data. Particularly as there isn't an international standard on ethnic data, as opposed, to for example, terminal level of education. Thus, OP will '''never''' be able to display data on an Australian website in the way in which data displays on a UK website because the '''structures of the data sets are ].''' ] (]) 21:22, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
	:::The request was for OP. Bringing up "education" & "terminal" after I commended you & we await OP's response to my link: Inspiring! '''Bolding''' too!] 01:56, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	::::I usually declare myself to be Australian on the census. That option is available to everybody in the census, no matter what their ancestry. That makes drawing conclusion on anything but self identification meaningless. ] (]) 01:33, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	:::::Same in the U.S. HiLo48, yet so many conclusions keep being drawn.] 01:56, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	::::::In the U.S., it should be noted that this information is NOT part of the ], that is the constitutionally mandated decenial census. The ] DOES collect this data, not for every person, but as a statistical sampling as part of its ], which is a detailed statistical snapshot (as opposed to a comprehensive counting) of a wide range of U.S. data. --]''''']''''' 16:56, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::You need to check those links, , as well as the , if parts of those wikiarticles are confusing readers, we may need to revise those. Whats with the bolding & caps on this thread? I see the IP/OP checked back in so I trust my earlier Australian PDF was perused.] 18:22, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
	I mean that you know if you go to city of Sydney, the data tells you how many are Bangladeshis or how many are Muslims. That's all that I can ask. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 14:34, 9 October 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:Australian census data defines both religion and ethnicity from self-reporting. What is a "Bangladeshi" to you? If your personal definition of being "Bangladeshi" maps onto the collective and shared definition of Australian census respondents then you can '''use census data.''' Similarly with being "Muslim." But if you really detest Sufis, or believe that some people who you'd call "Bangladeshi" have reported themselves as "Australian" then you're out of luck. ] (]) 22:24, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

			Why is the map of India always appears truncated in all of Misplaced Pages pages, when there is no official annexing of Indian territories in Kashmir, by Pakistan and China nor its confirmation from Indian govt ? With Pakistan and China just claiming the territory, why the world map shows it as annexed by them, separating from India ? ] (]) 15:05, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
	== How easy is it to get a low paying job? ==

			:The map at ] shows Kashmir in light green, meaning "claimed but not controlled". It's not truncated, it's ''differently included.'' ] ] 17:17, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
	I've always believed that someone can find a job without too much difficulty if they are willing to accept a low wage, but I realize now that I have no facts to back this opinion up (or disprove it for that matter). Where can I find statistics on the time it typically takes for someone to find a minimum wage job, for example? Thanks. ] (]) 20:19, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
			:Please see no 6 in ] ] (]) 20:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

			= December 29 =
	:That will depend on several factors: the specific work(s) considered, unemployment rate, the expertise of the worker in the work, other personal information that may benefit or harm the worker's chances with the employer, the distance that the worker is willing to commute to work, etc. --] (]) 20:45, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

			== Set animal's name = sha? ==
	:{{ec}}I'd suggest Ehrenreich's ] or Lowenstein's ] here. Labour market statistics analysis won't tell you anything about difficulty, acceptance, willingness, finding, what a job is, lowness of wage: labour market statistics incorporate their assumptions in their reporting requirements. Only discursive work will get you there. There's a lot of half-decent industrial sociology on ] which is immediately relevant, in particular some studies claims about a ] ought to be useful. By the way, you'd want to look at ] and ] alongside ]. In a great deal of cases (per Lowenstein's discursive reporting) workers refuse shit work and see "willingness" as a sickening forced consent. ] (]) 20:49, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

			"In ancient Egyptian art, the Set animal, or sha," - this seems like a major citation needed. Any help?
	:If a job is low paying, it implies automatically that lots of people are willing to do it, otherwise, the salary would go up.
			] (]) 00:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	The reason doesn't matter, maybe they don't have other marketable skills, but that's irrelevant when it comes down to define a market price. Low price implies high offer. The 'easiest' way of finding a job is learning skills. Even simple qualifications like commercial driver's license could improve dramatically your situation. ] (]) 23:52, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
			:Which article does that appear in? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 01:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::It must be ] article. ] (]) 04:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::That term was in the original version of the article, written 15 years ago by an editor named "P Aculeius" who is still active. Maybe the OP could ask that user about it? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 05:00, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:*{{tq\|Each time, the word ''šꜣ'' is written over the Seth-animal.}}<sup></sup>
			:*{{tq\|Sometimes the animal is designated as sha (''šꜣ'') , but we are not certain at all whether this designation was its name.}}<sup></sup>
			:*{{tq\|When referring to the ancient Egyptian terminology, the so-called sha-animal, as depicted and mentioned in the Middle Kingdom tombs of Beni Hasan, together with other fantastic creatures of the desert and including the griffin, closely resembles the Seth animal.}}<sup></sup>
			:*{{tq\|''šꜣ'' ‘Seth-animal’}}<sup></sup>
			:*{{tq\|He claims that the domestic pig is called “sha,” the name of the Set-animal.}}<sup></sup>
			:Wiktionary gives '']'' as meaning "<u>wild</u> pig", not mentioning use in connection with depictions of the Seth-animal. The hieroglyphs shown for ''šꜣ'' do not resemble those in the article ], which instead are listed as ideograms in (or for) '']'', the proper noun ''Seth''.  --] 08:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::Thank you! The reason I brought it up was because the hieroglyph for the set animal didn't have the sound value to match in jsesh.
			::] (]) 22:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			{{Hiero\|The word ''sha'' (accompanying<br>depictions of the Set animal)\|<hiero>SA-A-E12.E12</hiero>\|align=right\|era=egypt}}
			:::IMO they should be removed, or, if this can be sourced, be replaced by one or more of the following two:  --] 09:49, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			{{clear}}
			{{multiple image
			\| width = 125
			\| image1 = Sha (animal).jpg
			\| alt1 =
			\| image2 = Set animal.svg
			\| alt2 =
			\| footer = Budge's original drawing and second version of PharaohCrab's drawing; the original looked very different, and this one is clearly based on Budge's as traced by me in 2009, but without attribution.
			}}
			:The article—originally "Sha (animal)" was one of the first I wrote, or attempted to write, and was based on and built on the identification by ], in , which uses the hieroglyph <hiero>M8</hiero> for the word "sha", and includes the illustration that I traced from a scan and uploaded to Commons (and which was included in the article from the time of its creation in 2009 until December 21, 2024 when ] replaced it with his original version of the one shown above; see its history for what it looked like until yesterday). I have had very little to do with the article since ] made substantial changes and moved it to "Seth animal" in 2010; although it's stayed on my watchlist, I long since stopped trying to interfere with it, as it seemed to me that other editors were determined to change it to the way they thought it should be, and I wasn't sophisticated enough to intervene or advocate effectively for my opinions. In fact the only edit by me I can see after that was fixing a typo.

			:As for the word ''sha'', that is what Budge called it, based on the hieroglyph associated with it; I was writing about this specific creature, which according to Budge and some of the other sources quoted above has some degree of independence from Set, as it sometimes appears without him and is used as the determinative of one or two other deities, whose totemic animal it might also have been. One of the other scholars quoted above questions whether the word ''sha'' is the name of the animal, but still associates the word with the animal: Herman Te Velde's article, "Egyptian Hieroglyphs as Signs Symbols and Gods", quoted above, uses slightly modified versions of Budge's illustrations; his book ''Seth, God of Confusion'' is also quoted above, both with the transliteration ''šꜣ'', which in "Egyptian Hieroglyphs" he also renders ''sha''. ] is the source cited by the ] quotation above, claiming that ''sha'' referred to a domestic pig as well as the Set animal, and a different god distinct from Set, though sharing the same attributes (claims of which Thompson seems skeptical). Herman Te Velde also cites Newberry, though he offers a different explanation for the meaning of "sha" as "destiny". ''All Things Ancient Egypt'', also quoted above, calls the animal "the so-called ''sha''-animal", while ''Classification from Antiquity to Modern Times'' just uses ''šꜣ'' and "Seth-animal".
	:"Low price implies high offer" completely ignores the demand side of the situation. If demand for a product or service goes down, the price normally goes down as well. See ]. --] (]) 00:01, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

			:I'm not certain what the question here is; that the hieroglyph transliterated ''sha'' is somehow associated with the creature seems to have a clear scholarly consensus; most of the scholars use it as the name of the creature; Herman Te Velde is the only one who suggests that it ''might'' not be its name, though he doesn't conclude whether it is or isn't; and one general source says in passing "so-called ''sha''-animal", which accepts that this is what it's typically referred to in scholarship, without endorsing it. Although Newberry made the connection with pigs, none of the sources seems to write the name with pig hieroglyphs as depicted above. Could you be clearer about what it is that's being discussed here? ] (]) 16:47, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	::OK, low price for something implies a high'''er''' supply than demand. It doesn't matter if someone thinks it's high, the only thing that's important is that it is higher in comparison to the demand, for whatever reason. But yes, the logic is the same: there are lots of candidates trying to obtain a low paying job. ] (]) 00:55, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

			:]
	:::Some years ago I worked in the local vineyards for six months. Locale was terrific, the company was great, but the pay was crap. To get the job I had to attend a trial day where I was obviously assessed for work ethic and potential to learn the necessary skills quickly enough. (Bad pruning can really destroy a vineyard.) Many didn't pass that test. So, poorly paying job, but not all that easy to get. ] (]) 01:28, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
			:I asked because I couldn't find it in Gardiner (jsesh, no match when searching by sound value) or Budge (dictionary vol II.)
	::::What about perks? Did you get any free samples? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 02:18, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	:~~::::Yes, there were some fringe benefits of that kind. Did add to the pleasures of the job. Hic.~~ ] (]) 02:23, 9 ~~October~~ ~~2013~~ (UTC)		:] (]) 05:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

			= December 30 =
	:. Tell me how easy you think it is to get a job where you are up against 300 other applicants? --] (]) 09:22, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	::The situation in regard to low-paying jobs (in the UK often called "entry-level jobs") varies by time and place much more than the situation regarding to higher-paying skilled jobs does. If you qualify as a doctor you will get a job either very easily or quite easily, even in a recession. If you are looking to work as a supermarket cashier they are either desperate to snap you up, or dismissive, or anything in between. ] (]) 22:38, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

			== I do not say the Frenchman will not come. I only say he will not come by sea. ==
	== Entering a hotel via the window ==
	{{resolved}}

			1. What is the ultimate source of this famous 1803 quote by John Jervis (1735 – 1823), 1st Earl of St Vincent, First Lord of the Admiralty at the time. I googled Books and no source is ever given except possibly another collection of quotations. The closest I got was: "At a parley in London while First Lord of the Admiralty 1803". That's just not good enough. Surely there must be someone who put this anecdote in writing for the first time.
	I guess this could be construed as legal advice, as it pertains to a situation which actually occurred to me, however the situation has passed and I am not actually asking for advice, rather looking to satisfy my curiosity. I recently stayed in a small French hotel, where we were given a key which opened both the front door and the room we were staying in. Being outside tourist season we were the only guests. Returning late one night we found that the key failed to open the front door (it later transpired that the door had been deadlocked from the inside by mistake before the owners left via the back door). One of the options we considered before finally waking the owners up by furiously knocking on the door to their nearby house was to check for an unsecured ground floor window and enter via that. Is there any law which prohibits this? Feel free to choose your jurisdiction - I'm not specifically interested in French law. My view was that as we had permission to be in the hotel, any means of entry which wouldn't cause damage would be fair game. My friend remained less convinced. ]<small> (] \| ])</small> 21:12, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
	:Hard telling about the laws in various places, but read what happened to ] when he had to break into ''his own house''. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 21:16, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
	:At a certain point it only matters if the "victim" or an officer chooses to report or enforce it. Misplaced Pages has a whole article (that could use expanding) with several links at ], most of us would be in custody if they went strictly by the book--& forgot about statute of limitations.] 02:10, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	::Being accidentally locked out of a rented room is a ]. ] is a ]. You are not entitled to commit a crime to rectify a tort under ]. ] is ]. ]. ] (]) 02:25, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	:::That begs the question of whether your intent was unlawful. A locksmith picks a lock, but it is legal when he does so with the owner's permission. The guest at a hotel is entitled to open the window, to be on the inside, to be on the outside; the only question is whether there is some written or unwritten rule prohibiting him from clambering through it. ] (]) 03:07, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	::::Intent to redress a tort has nothing to do with excusing breaking and entering; it is you who is begging the question--the OP said nothing about having permission; and a locksmith entering with an owner's permission is a locksmith entering ''with an owner's permission.'' Next you'll be giving us medical advice, Wnt, and suggesting knocking a hole in the wall is okay if they have your credit card on file for a damage deposit? ] (]) 03:23, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	::::::<small>As someone who's been witnessed "knocking a hole in the wall", now I am concerned & oh yeah, the wall provoked me!] 03:46, 9 October 2013 (UTC)</small>
	:::::::Actually, so far as I know, knocking a hole in the wall actually ''isn't'' a criminal offense so long as you pay your damages, is it? Hotels get this kind of nonsense all the time, especially from rock stars. ] (]) 19:56, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	::::::::<small>'''].'''] 14:21, 10 October 2013 (UTC)</small>
	:::::Given the premise that the renter is ''accidentally'' locked out, he has permission to be inside. The owner could walk by and see him looking out the open window from the inside, and see nothing wrong with the world. He could walk by and see the renter sitting with one leg outside the window, and might look at him askance because it's not normal use, but is it prohibited? Which brings us right to the "breaking" and entering scenario, because the legal use of the term doesn't actually mean the renter bashed in the window. ] (]) 03:39, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	::::::A guest has the right to be in their room (and most hotel's can revoke that at will, so if you're locked out, you may have lost that right and, hence, have no right to "break in") a guest does not have a right to unrestricted access to the rest of the building. At some hotels the doors are locked at night and you need a key to access, or need to communicate via intercom with staff, if you lost your key and tried entering via another means, you would be removed by the police and, probably, not welcome back. Granted that in these instances, you wouldn't be breaking the law so much as having the hotel kick you out, but there's nothing you could do about it. The owners control what is, and isn't, legitimate access- so entering in a nonstandard way may not end you up arrested, but it can get your privileges revoked.] (]) 04:13, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::Well, in this case the owners would likely never have known - I would have entered through the window, un-locked the door, closed the window again and everything would have been back to how it should have been. The impression I get from the answers thus far (which I realise cannot be definitive) is that it is potentially just on the edge of breaking the law (and might depend whether the window opened onto a public area of the hotel, or somewhere like a kitchen), but would certainly be grounds for expulsion from the hotel. I think I still would have tried it if waking the owners up hadn't worked - beats sleeping in a doorway in your best suit after rather a lot of good champagne at your friend's wedding reception. Sleeping in the car wasn't even an option - we'd left that at the reception hall and got a taxi back. ]<small> (] \| ])</small> 10:16, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	::::::::In UK law, it wouldn't count as "breaking and entering", as there was no intention to engage in any wrongdoing after entering the building. I can't find what the position is in French law. Breaking in is called "effraction". From a fairly extensive experience of small French hotels I think that the owners would not have minded you entering by the window. Did their security arrangements not include a large dog? If they had called the gendarmes, the gendarmes would likely have refused to come out, and if they had come out they would have laughed and asked the owners to sort the problem out with you. ] (]) 11:10, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::::No - I don't think the owners would have minded either. No large dog - unless it was sleeping in the house rather than the hotel. The owners were very apologetic about the whole situation - in fact they were so nice that we bought them a box of chocolates to apologise for knocking them up at half one in the morning. Leaving the hotel on the last day I noticed that they had stuck some sticky tape over the inside keyhole, obviously they don't want this to happen again! ]<small> (] \| ])</small> 13:17, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	::::::::::Like. The function of the dog, by the way, is not barking or biting, as it is too old for either of these purposes, but for the intruder to trip over. Sticky tape ("du Scotch" in French) is a useful item in premises security, but not as useful as a dog. Wired and wireless intruder alarms are actually available in France, contrary to popular belief. ] (]) 14:15, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	*Equisetum, the purpose of your question is unclear at this point. If you think the owners would not mind or know, what does the law have to do with this? If your question is, does being locked out legally justify a tenant to enter through the window, (a window not meant for that purpose), then the answer is no, he is not ''entitled'' to enter through the window. Indeed, the landlord might be forced to press charges if he injures himself doing so or face legal liability. For example, a neighbor of mine had a son who used her car all the time, but who was not a resident of her house. One night he took the car, damaged several neighbors' cars, and injured himself, none of which would be covered by her insurance. She was forced to press charges against him for theft of the car, which she did, or face many tens of thousands of dollars in civil damages. The purpose of civil courts is to redress damages like being negligently locked out of an accommodation. The law doesn't let people climb their neighbors' fences to retrieve lost balls or pry open windows when the door should not be locked. ] (]) 16:37, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	::Well, the purpose of my question was entirely idle curiosity - i.e. if we assume that a) I actually did this, b) the owners did find out, c) the owners did mind, would I be guilty of anything (primarily I was thinking criminal, but I guess a civil wrong would also apply) and if so, what? I was always fairly clear that I am not specifically legally justified to do this (apologies for not making this clear in my original question), but it wasn't clear to me ''which'' if any provision under law embodies this. I think that this has been answered as well as it can be without me seeking a professional legal opinion (which is a little too expensive for idle curiosity). I am still interested as to what I could be guilty of - in terms of civil torts a close reading of ] implies that I could be sued for that in at least the US under case law which establishes that any use of land beyond that which I have been granted permission for constitutes trespass. In criminal law I'm not sure if anything applies, even breach of the peace/disorderly conduct doesn't fit as opening an unlocked window and climbing through it doesn't cause a disturbance of any kind, likewise breaking and entering doesn't fit as my intent upon entering would not have been unlawful. Apologies if this seems a little pedantic, feel free not to respond if you don't want to. I happen to enjoy musing on fairly trivial legal "edge" cases, but appreciate that many people find it annoying. ]<small> (] \| ])</small> 18:45, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	::P.S. I am aware that France is not a common law jurisdiction - however my knowledge of ] is even worse than my knowledge of common law, so I tend to do most of my musings assuming common law (usually UK law) applies. ]<small> (] \| ])</small> 18:57, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	:::From , my emphasis added: "''breaking and entering n. 1) the criminal act of entering a residence or other enclosed property through the '''slightest amount of force (even pushing open a door), without authorization.''' If there is intent to commit a crime, this is burglary. If there is no such intent, the breaking and entering alone is probably at least illegal trespass, which is a misdemeanor crime.''" The situation you describe would be breaking and entering in the US. ] (]) 19:02, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	::::The premise of the question is that the person ''has'' authorization. There is, of course, always a risk that he is ''wrong'' about that; for example, his room might have been swapped with another guest by someone who didn't think we was checked in yet. But even then, so long as he cannot be proven to have had the '']'' to have deliberately entered the wrong room without authorization, he is still innocent. I think... (There's a case where this breaks down, namely, I think that heavily intoxicated people who enter the wrong house still end up in trouble, but I think that is some interaction of the deliberate choice to become intoxicated as opposed to a genuine accident, isn't it?) ] (]) 19:54, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	:::::In the posts immediately above this the OP specifies "if the owners did mind", and the law dictionary quote says it is still trespass without mens rea. Your response misses that entirely, Wnt. ] (]) 20:03, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	::::::I guess it boils down to this (assuming no complications like swapped rooms) - is the required "authorization" the authorization to enter a property in general (which I had), or the authorization to enter a property by a specific means (which I did not). If the former, Wnt's interpretation holds and I would not be guilty of illegal trespass according to the law dictionary definition. If the latter, Medeis' interpretation holds and I would be guilty. I doubt we can get any further without a lawyer. I agree that trespass does not depend on the intent to commit a crime (although this is slightly different to the question of ''mens rea'', which I believe for illegal trespass would hinge on whether I intended to enter the property or not - pretty moot in this case as I clearly did). I was not hitherto aware of the crime of illegal trespass, which I don't believe exists in the UK (trespass is merely a civil tort over here). I'm marking this question resolved - my idle curiosity is satisfied, thank you to everyone who responded. Feel free to discuss this further if you are still interested though. ]<small> (] \| ])</small> 22:47, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

			2. Wouldn't you say this use of the simple present in English is not longer current in contemporary English, and that the modern equivalent would use present continuous forms "I'm not saying... I'm only saying..." (unless Lord Jervis meant to say he was in the habit of saying this; incidentally I do realize this should go to the Language Desk but I hope it's ok just this once)
	== German Argentinians in Europe ==

			] (]) 11:47, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
	Reading ], I am surprised that there is no discussion of German Argentinians migrating to Europe.
			:Assuming he's talking about England, does he propose building a bridge over the Channel? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 12:13, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
	I know that, due to the laws on ] and ], many ]s and ]s took advantage to migrate to Europe during the ] and after the ] crisis.
			::How about a ]? --] (]) 12:29, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
	Was it so with German Argentinians?
			:::It's a joke. He's saying that the French won't invade under any circumstances (see ]). ] (]) 20:30, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
	Why (not)?
			:::The First Lord of the Admiralty wouldn't be the one stopping them if the French came by tunnel (proposed in 1802) or air (the French did have hot air balloons). Any decent military officer would understand that an invasion by tunnel or balloon would have no chance of success, but this fear caused some English opposition against the Channel Tunnel for the next 150 years. Just hinting at the possibility of invasion by tunnel amongst military officers would be considered a joke.
	--] (]) 22:38, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
			:::Unless he was insulting the British Army (no, now I'm joking). ] (]) 10:30, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

			:The quoted wording varies somewhat. Our article ] has it as "I do not say, my Lords, that the French will not come. I say only they will not come by sea" in an 1801 letter to the Board of Admiralty, cited to {{cite book \| last = Andidora \| first = Ronald \| title = Iron Admirals: Naval Leadership in the Twentieth Century \| publisher = Greenwood Publishing Group \| year = 2000 \| isbn = 978-0-313-31266-3 \| url = https://books.google.com/books?id=0P-A8rIfO34C&pg=PA3 \| page = 3}}. Our article ] has Jervis telling the House of Lords "I do not say the French cannot come, I only say they cannot come by sea", and then immediately, and without citation, saying it was more probably ]. I can't say I've ever seen it attributed to Keith anywhere else. ] (]) 13:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
	:] is less liberal than Spanish or Italian laws, not allowing descendants after several generations or descendants from German mothers, if the child was born before 1975. Add to this that you have to renounce your previous nationality, which is probably a deal-breaker for many. ] (]) 22:21, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
			:Hmm, Andidora does '''not''' in fact say it was in a letter to the Board of Admiralty, nor does he explicitly say 1801. And his source, ''The Age of Nelson'' by G J Marcus has it as Jervis telling the House of Lords sometime during the scare of '03-'05. Marcus doesn't give a source. ] (]) 13:52, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			::] was as early as 1806, and while I don't want to put too much weight on his phrase "used to say" it does at any rate raise the possibility that St Vincent said (or wrote) it more than once. Perhaps Marcus and our St Vincent article are both right. --] (]) 16:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::Interesting. Thanks. Some modern accounts (not Southey apparently) claim Lord St Vincent was speaking in the House of Lords. If that was the case, wouldn't it be found in the parliamentary record? How far back does the parliamentary record go for the House of Commons and/or the House of Lords. ] (]) 17:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:As for (2), the tense is still alive and kicking, if I do say so myself. ] (]) 23:12, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			::You don't say? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ] (]) 02:47, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::This is not what I am asking. ] (]) 05:05, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::Then I will answer you more directly. You are wrong: while the usage you quote is ''less common'' than it once was, it ''is'' still current, according to my experience as a native BrE speaker for over 65 years. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ] (]) 13:32, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::I kid you not.  --] 23:47, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

			== What percentage of Ancient Greek literature was preserved? ==
	::Thank you. --] (]) 22:47, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

			Has anyone seen an estimate of what percentage of Ancient Greek literature (broadly understood: literature proper, poetry, mathematics, philosophy, history, science, etc.) was preserved. It doesn't matter how you define "Ancient Greek literature", or if you mean the works available in 100 BC or 1 AD or 100 AD or 200 AD... Works were lost even in antiquity. I'm just trying to get a rough idea and was wondering if anyone ever tried to work out an estimate. ] (]) 17:58, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
	== Are ] numbers in the public domain? ==

			:I don't have an answer handy for you at the moment, but I can tell you that people ''have'' tried to work out an estimate for this, at least from the perspective of "how many manuscripts containing such literature managed to survive past the early Middle Ages". We've worked this one out, with many caveats, by comparing library catalogues from very early monasteries to known survivals and estimating the loss rate. -- ] (]) 20:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
	Thanks for any help! ]<sup> ]\|]</sup> 23:33, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
			:One estimate is (less than) one percent. --] (]) 20:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

			:We have a ] article with a large "Antiquity" section. ] (]) 21:15, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
	:Not every information can be protected by copyright, not everything can be an intangible asset, since not every piece information is a creative work. Therefore, sometimes it's meaningless to ask if something is public domain or not. ] (]) 23:37, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
			::These are works known to have existed, because they were mentioned and sometimes even quoted in works that have survived. These known lost works are probably only a small fraction of all that have been lost.  --] 23:35, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:Few things which might be helpful:
			:#{{xt\|So profuse was Galen's output that the surviving texts represent nearly half of all the extant literature from ancient Greece.}}<ref>]</ref>
			:#Although not just Greek, but only 1% of ancient literature survives.<ref>https://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog/2009/10/26/reference-for-the-claim-that-only-1-of-ancient-literature-survives/</ref> --{{User:ExclusiveEditor/Signature}} 11:12, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

			:The following quantities are known: <math>S,</math> the number of preserved works, <math>L,</math> the (unknown) number of lost works, and <math>M_L,</math> the number of lost works of which we know, through mentions in preserved works. In a (very) naive model, let <math>\mu</math> stand for the probability that a given work (lost or preserved) is mentioned in some other preserved work (so <math>M_L=\mu L</math>). The expected number of mentions of preserved works in other preserved works is then <math>M_S=\mu(S-1).</math> If we have the numerical value of the latter quantity (which is theoretically obtainable by scanning all preserved works), we can obtain an estimate for <math>\mu</math> and compute <math>L\approx\frac{M_L}{M_S}(S-1).</math>
	:Supposing one could copyright an ISBN number, what would be the point? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 00:35, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
			: --] 13:09, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

			* Even without seeing any professional estimate of the kind I'm asking about here, my ballpark figure was that it had to be less than 1 percent, simply from noting how little of even the most celebrated and important authors has been preserved (e.g. about 5 percent for Sophocles) and how there are hundreds of authors and hundreds of works for which we only have the titles and maybe a few quotes, not to mention all those works of which we have not an inkling, the number of which it is, for this very reason, extremely hard to estimate.
	::The fruit may be in the public domain, its shape belongs its ]. The question has not been answered! <small>Marvels of the language, compare the two following propositions</small> a)<small> are A, B and C in the public domain, b) A, B and C are in the public domain.</small> --] (]) 05:56, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	:::ISBN numbers are not secret. You may reveal them whenever you wish. In case it helps, they are also verifiable in Misplaced Pages terms. ] (]) 11:03, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	::::They are an ] standard so rather a constraint than an asset still perhaps their checksum system would feature intellectual property restrictions. --] (]) 21:03, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

	:Can you clarify the question? Are you asking whether there are ISBNs such that if I reproduced them I could be sued for breach of copyright? ] (]) 11:03, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	:] is generally about protecting creativity. There isn't much creative about the next number in a well-known sequence. ] (]) 19:54, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

			* But as a corollary to my first question I have another three:
	::I think there was a legal battle over phonenumbers in The Netherlands which the then-monopolist PTT considered theirs so nobody else could create a phonebook without their permission. ] (]) 20:01, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	:::That would not be exactly the same premise. The numbers in a phone book are meaningful. An ISBN has no special meaning except for being attached to a particular book. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 00:35, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
	:::That might have involved a copyright on the phonebook as a compilation/database itself: ] (if it was already law at the time) ] (]) 18:38, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

			* 1. Has any modern historian tackled this paradox, namely the enormous influence that the culture of the Ancient World has had on the West while at the same time how little we actually know about that culture, and as a consequence the problem that we seem to believe that we know much more than we actually do? in other words that our image of it that has had this influence on Western culture might be to some extent a modern creation and might be very different of what it actually was?
	= October 9 =

			* 2. I understand that in this regard there can be the opposite opinion (or we can call it a hypothesis, or an article of faith) which is the one that is commonly held (at least implicitly): that despite all that was lost the main features of our knowledge of the culture of the Ancient World are secure and that no lost work is likely to have modified the fundamentals? Like I said this seems to be the position that is commonly implicitly held, but I'm interested to hear if any historian has discussed this question and defended this position explicitly in a principled way?
	== What about Peake? ==

			* 3. Finally to what extent is the position mentioned in point 2 simply a result of ignorance (people not being aware of how much was lost)? How widespread is (in the West) the knowledge of how much was lost? How has that awareness developed in the West, both at the level of the experts and that of the culture in general, since say the 15th century? Have you encountered any discussions of these points?
	I've been exploring areas around ]. On the ] online gift store, there's a plush Chessie. On another website involving Chessie, there's a plush "Nip" and a plush "Tuck". But I don't find anything regarding "Peake". What did he look like? Could anyone help, please? Thank you.] (]) 07:52, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	:I googled around some seems there is a historical society with lots of pictures & merch. , & there are tons more under search. The society page is .] 07:59, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	Thank you, but I was hoping to find a plush "Peake", actually.] (]) 18:27, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	:Very true, after dozens of search result sites I lost track of that, I did the obligatory Google images and Ebay searches, nothing at all is turning up for Peake plushes. Not tons of experience in these type of searches so another editor may know of sites/portals that could give more detailed results than a google or google image query.] 19:10, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	Alright. But judging what you provided me, can you do so with the description of Peake, please? Thank you.] (]) 04:43, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
	:You're asking to run the searches again for "plushes"? Not sure what you're asking, but in my 2nd response I was saying that I did go back with Ebay, Google and Google images and run those search combos, nothing at all is turning up. There could be other editors with knowledge of some other search portal or resource for a search but I am unaware of any.] 14:07, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

			] (]) 08:40, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	== Recommendations for graphic novels ==

			:The issues touched upon are major topics in ] as well as the ], not only for the Ancient (Classical) World but for all historical study. Traditionally, ]s have concentrated on the culture of the high and mighty. The imprint on the historical record by '']'' is much more difficult to detect, except in the rare instances where they rose up, so what we think of as "the" culture of any society is that of a happy few. Note also that "the culture of the Ancient World" covers a period of more than ten centuries, in which kingdoms and empires rose and fell, states and colonies were founded and conquered, in an endless successions of wars and intrigues. On almost any philosophical issue imaginable, including ], ancient philosophers have held contrary views. It is not clear how to define "the" culture of the Ancient World, and neither is it clear how to define the degree to which this culture has influenced modern Western society. It may be argued that the influence of say Plato or Sophocles has largely remained confined to an upper crust. I think historians studying this are well aware of the limitations of their source material, including the fact that history is written by the victors.  --] 13:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	I recently read Alan Moore's ] and enjoyed it very much. Can anyone provide me with recommendations for other graphic novels in a similar vein? Obviously Moore's own V for Vendetta is one. I would like to read graphic novels which are particularly literate in tone and formally experimental in style, like Watchmen is. Thanks, --] 13:28, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	:It sounds like you'd like some other titles in ]'s ] imprint, which I believe publishes both of the works you mentioned. You mention "literate" and "experimental;" it's hard to combine those two traits much better than Moore does it, but I'd recommend '']'' by ] (literate; imagine, among other things, ] writing a fictionalized biography of ] in the style of '']'' and you'll start to approach Transmet), though perhaps relatively straightforward in its pacing. I also enjoyed ]'s ''].'' Morrison definitely falls on the "experimental" side of things and clearly has a lot of fun doing it (while using enough arcane sources to keep you busy at the library for days afterward if you really get into it). The first thing anyone will recommend to you, however, is ]'s ''],'' which would be worth buying even if it only consisted of ]'s cover art (but it turns out there are complex and interesting stories there, too, huh). Other than ''Watchmen,'' or maybe ''],'' ''Sandman'' is probably the most recognized English-language comic series, and for good reason. If you want to get away from heroes and gods, you might check out the work of ] (other editors can recommend more authors on that side of the literary spectrum). Happy reading! <span style="font-family:Garamond;">]]]</font></span> 14:51, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

			:178.51.7.23 -- Think of it this way: What did it mean to "publish" something in the ancient world? You had at least one written manuscript of your work -- rarely more than a handful of such manuscripts. You could show what you had written to your friends, have it delivered to influential people, bequeath it to your heirs, or donate it to an archive or research collection (almost none of which were meaningfully public libraries in the modern sense of that phrase). However you chose to do it, once you were gone, the perpetuation of your work depended on other people having enough interest in it to do the laborious work of copying the manuscript, or being willing to pay to have a copy made. Works of literature which did not interest other people enough to copy manuscripts of it were almost always eventually lost, which ensured that a lot of tedious and worthless stuff was filtered out. Of course, pagan literary connoisseurs, Christian monks, Syriac and Arabic translators seeking Greek knowledge, and Renaissance Humanists all had different ideas of what was worth preserving, but between them, they ensured that a lot of interesting or engaging or informative works ended up surviving from ancient times. I'm sure that a number of worthy books still slipped through the gaps, but some losses were very natural and to be expected; for example, some linguists really wish that Claudius's book on the Etruscan language had survived, but it's not surprising that it didn't, since it would not have generally interested ancient, medieval, or renaissance literate people in the same way it would interest modern scholars struggling with Etruscan inscriptions.
	: <small> What do we call a graphic novel that contains what the media loves to call "graphic violence" - a "graphic graphic novel"? -- ] </sup></font></span>]] 20:27, 9 October 2013 (UTC) </small>
			:By the way, college bookstores on or near campuses of universities which had a Classics program sometimes used to have a small section devoted to the small green-backed (Greek) and red-backed (Latin) volumes of the ], and you could get an idea of what survived from ancient times (and isn't very obscure or fragmentary) by perusing the shelves... ] (]) 01:03, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Indeed - at the other end of the scale, the '']'' by Pausanias seems to have survived into the Middle Ages in a single MS (now of course lost), and there are no ancient references to either it or him known. Since the Renaissance it has been continuously in print. ] (]) 03:00, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{reflist-talk}}

			= December 31 =
	::<small>Not to mention back in the eighties and nineties, before the idea of comics for anyone other than children was really established in the popular imagination, you had formulations like "adult graphic novel" or "graphic novel for adults" which made them sound absolutely filthy. Sadly, very few of them were. --] (]) 15:56, 10 October 2013 (UTC) </small>

			== Was the fictional character "The Jackal" (as played by Edward Fox and Bruce Willis) based on Carlos The Jackal? ==
	:McCloud ''Understanding Comics,'' ''Reinventing Comics,'' and ''Zot!'' (Wasn't it? Hard to find.). Satrapi ''Persepolis'' and ''Persepolis 2''. Spiegelman ''Maus''. Spiegelman etal ''RAW''. Fleener ''Life of the Party''. Sacco ''Safe Area Gorazde''. Moebius ''Madwoman of the Sacred Heart''. Miller ''300'' ''Sin City'' (Collected). Various, ''Lucifer'' (Trust me on this one, particularly the Eileen Belloc subplot). Lutes ''Berlin''. ] (]) 22:35, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	::Let me link: ], ], ]. ] and ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ]. --] (]) 23:16, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

			Talking about the fictional assassin from the books and films. I once read somewhere that the real Carlos The Jackal didn't like being compared to the fictional character, because he said he was a professional Marxist revolutionary, not merely a hitman for hire to the highest bidder (not in the article about him at the moment, so maybe not true). ] (]) 02:47, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	:Keeping with Moore, ]. I don't remember if Miller's '']'' is what you want.
	:Thanks for the tips from my side as well.
	:--] (]) 23:16, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
	:Thanks for the recommendations all. -] 07:14, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
	::'']'' by ], ]'s ''Alec'' stories, Moore and Campbell's '']'', ''The Wrong Place'' by Brecht Evens, and '']'' and '']'' by ] are some graphic novels with literary and formalist ambitions that spring to mind. I'd dispute the inclusion of ''300'' and ''Sin City'' - regardless of how good they are, they're pulp rather than literary in style. Straddling literary and pulp, I'd suggest '']'' by ] and '']'' by ] and ]. McCloud's ''Understanding Comics'' and its follow-ups may be formalist, but are academic rather than literary - they're explorations of comics form and theory. --] (]) 12:48, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

			:No, the character wasn't based on Carlos. The films are based on the 1971 historical fiction novel '']'' by Frederick Forsyth, which begins with a fairly accurate account of the actual 1962 assassination attempt on Charles de Gaulle by the French Air Force lieutenant colonel ], which failed. Subsequently in the fictional plot the terrorists hire an unnamed English professional hitman whom they give the codename 'The Jackal'.
	== A Rhetorics introduction textbook? ==
			:] was a Venezuelan terrorist named Ilich Ramírez Sánchez operating in the 1970s and '80s. He was given the cover name 'Carlos' when in 1971 he joined the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. When authorities found some of his weapons stashed in a friend's house, a copy of Forsyth's novel was noticed on his friend's bookshelf, and a ''Guardian'' journalist then invented the nickname, as journalists are wont to do. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ] (]) 03:15, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::There's also the fictionalised Ilich Ramírez Sánchez / Carlos the Jackal from the ] novels. ] (]) 10:44, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

			== References ==
	I am looking for a good Introduction textbook in Rhetorics (Something that covers the topic generally). it should be a cherished text in the academic world, admired, and chosen by the most active and honored institutions. you have my deep thanks ! ] (]) 21:38, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

			I am on to creating an article on {{ill\|Lu Chun\|zh\|陸淳}} soon. If anyone has got references about him other than those on google, it would be great if you could share them here. Thanks, {{User:ExclusiveEditor/Signature}} 11:20, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	:] is a pretty broad topic, it would be difficult to come up with one, unless you tell us what you want to learn exactly.
	:On the other hand, many "active and honored institutions" have online syllabus of their courses, you could check these for a literature list. ] (]) 22:12, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

			:Did you try the ] of Taiwan? The library has a lot of collection about history of Tang dynasty. If you want to write a research paper for publication purpose, you need to know what have been written by others. Then the under the central library can be a good starting point. ] (]) 09:16, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Note that "rhetorics" is a rather archaic word. You might have better luck looking for "persuasive writing" or "persuasive speaking". '']'' by ] is one such book. As I recall, Ben, constantly repeating your target's name, Ben, is a way, Ben, to make them feel like you are their friend, Ben. :-) ] (]) 12:50, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

			== Battle of the Granicus ==
	:Agreed with the views already expressed, however you may find a . There are also books & websites on famous quotations, toastmaster guides & even with transcripts of all speeches & papers going back in time.] 14:13, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

			This month about identification of the Battle of the Granicus site, stating in particular: "Professor Reyhan Korpe, a historian from Çanakkale Onsekiz Mart University (ÇOMÜ) and Scientific Advisor to the “Alexander the Great Cultural Route” project, led the team that uncovered the battlefield". However, per ] it seems that the exact site has been known since at least . Am I reading the news correctly that what Korpe's team actually did was mapping Alexander’s journey to the Granicus rather than identifying the battle site per se? Per news, "Starting from Özbek village, Alexander’s army moved through Umurbey and Lapseki before descending into the Biga Plain". ]<sup>]</sup> 23:38, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	= October 10 =

			:If Körpe and his team wrote a paper about their discovery, I haven't found it, so I can only go by news articles reporting on their findings. Apparently, Körpe gave a presentation at the Çanakkale Provincial Directorate of Culture and Tourism for an audience of local mayors and district governors,<sup></sup> and I think the news reports reflect what he said there. Obviously, the presentation was in Turkish. Turkish news sources, based on an item provided by ], quote him as saying, "{{tq\|Bölgede yaptığımız araştırmalarda antik kaynakları da çok dikkatli okuyarak, yorumlayarak savaşın <u>aşağı yukarı</u> tam olarak nerede olduğunu, hangi köyler arasında olduğunu, ovanın tam olarak neresinde olduğunu bulduk.}}" Google Translate turns this into, "During our research in the region, by reading and interpreting ancient sources very carefully, we found out <u>more or less</u> exactly where the war took place, which villages it took place between, and where exactly on the plain it took place." I cannot reconcile "more or less" with "exactly".
	== It's drafty in here. ==
			:The news reports do not reveal the location identified by Körpe, who is certainly aware of Hammond's theory, since he cited the latter's 1980 article in earlier publications. One possibility is that the claim will turn out to have been able to confirm Hammond's theory definitively. Another possibility is that the location they identified is not "more or less exactly" the same as that of Hammond's theory.  --] 02:08, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

			= January 1 =
	During the ], could someone who had already served in the ] be drafted? I'm trying to figure out if ] was a soldier. thinks so, but '']'' notes he was drafted in 1865, and that Lincoln had to arrange to get him out of it. ] (]) 00:27, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

			== Has there ever been an incident of a serial killer murdering another serial killer? ==
	: At the bottom of the Crook article, there’s a link to his autobiography – see page 25 where he describes being drafted and says ''”I had served in the army already”''. Is that enough? ] (]) 16:07, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

			Question as topic. Has this ever happened outside of the movies? ] (]) 05:30, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
	== ] and the Apocrypha ==

			:This is an interesting question. Just because you can't find any incident, doesn't mean this kind of case never happened (type II error). ] (]) 09:57, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
	] notes how the Apocrypha was included between the Old and New Testaments in the original 1611 version, and it discusses how the Apocrypha began, on occasion, to be removed from certain printings of the KJV Bible. I'm unclear as to whether current printings of the KJV Bible contain the Apocrypha. Also, do those that are part of the ], who consider the original 1611 printing to be the only acceptable translation, consider the Apocrypha to be cannon? ] (]) 04:27, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
	:The KJV is currently available in both versions and the KJV Only people would use the one without it. ] (]) 05:07, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

			:Apparently yes: ] was killed by one of his his accomplices, ]. --] (]) 12:13, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
	::The exact status of the Apocrypha in the Anglican Church is described in Article VI of the ]; ''"And the other Books ''(ie the Apocrypha)'', as ] saith, the Church doth read for example of life and instruction of manners; but yet doth it not apply them to establish any doctrine..."'' Our article, ] says; ''"All King James Bibles published before 1666 included the Apocrypha. In 1826, the British and Foreign Bible Society decided that no BFBS funds were to pay for printing any Apocryphal books anywhere. Since then most modern editions of the Bible and re-printings of the King James Bible omit the Apocrypha section."''. ] (]) 12:45, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

			::Of course it would be more notable if the two were not connected to each other. --] (]) 08:22, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Why do Jewish people look white? ==

			:If you're including underworld figures, this happens not infrequently. As an Aussie, a case that springs to mind was ] murdering ]. Both underworld serial murderers. I'm sure there are many similar cases in organised crime. ] (]) 08:40, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
	Living in the United States, a person who says that he is Jewish looks like a typical white person, not South Asian, East Asian, Southeast Asian, sub-Saharan African, or Native American. Why do Jews look white even though the Semitic peoples come from the Middle East, which is part of West Asia, and have darker complexion with black/brown hair+eyes and tan skin color? Also, during World War II, if a Jewish family refuses to put on the yellow star badge thingy and practices Judaism in secret under the mask of Christianity, then can that evade persecution by the NAZIs? ] (]) 14:20, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
			::Aren't hired killers distinct from the usual concept of a serial killer? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 09:11, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
	: I must add that, in research experiments, researchers may ask, "What is your race/ethnicity?" and offer choices like "Asian-American/Pacific Islander, White-American, African-American, Jewish, and Other," and then adds, "Are you Hispanic?" and the choice is "Yes/No". So, is being Jewish treated as an ethnicity or a race, even though Jewish people may look like white people? ] (]) 14:29, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

			:Outside the movies? Sure, on ]. ] (]) 21:09, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
	::I'll answer only about the allegation that Jews look white. well, Not all Jews look "White". Some Jews, mainly those of Ashkenazi ancestry may look europeanish (and i can promise that it probably won't be a typical north-european look though there are exceptions off course). This is because primarily, jews from europe tend to resemble some kind of a mixture between Israelite, European-native, and a bit Khazar ancestry. ] (]) 14:38, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
			:The Dexter character from the multiple Dexter series is based on ], who killed criminals, including murderers. It is necessary to decide how many merders each of those murders did in order to decide if you would want to classify them as serial killers or just general murderers. ] (]) 19:04, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::It sounds like the '']'' film series might have also drawn inspiration from Filho. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 03:24, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

			== Another serial killer question ==
	::As to the second, ] shows that the Nazi persecution was racial, not religious. Unlike the Spanish Inquisition, where many Jews survived by converting, the Nazis were only interested in who your parents were. There were cases of people who did not even know that they had Jewish ancestry being "outed" and persecuted by the regime. --] (]) 14:36, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
	:::So, practicing Jews and non-Jewish people with Jewish ancestry can be persecuted, huh? I imagine that a Jewish family may survive through the Spanish Inquisition, but fails to survive through the Holocaust, because the NAZIs base the Jewish identity on race and looks. ] (]) 15:05, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
	::You also have families of several different races who have ] such as ] & the list goes on.] 14:48, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

			about 20 years ago, I saw a documentary where it was said that the majority of serial killers kill for sexual gratification, or for some sort of revenge against their upbringing, or because in their head that God (or someone else) told them to kill. But the FBI agent on the documentary said something about how their worst nightmare was an extremely intelligent, methodical killer who was doing what he did to make some sort of grand statement about society/political statement. That this sort of killer was one step ahead of law enforcement and knew all of their methods. Like a Hannibal Lecter type individual. He said that he could count on the fingers of one hand the sort of person who he was talking about, but that these killers were the most difficult of all to catch and by far the most dangerous. Can you tell me any examples of these killers? ] (]) 05:49, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::It is worth pointing out that Semitic peoples in general are sometimes classified as 'white' - the 'races' are all social constructs, with no clear scientific method existing to establish 'boundaries' - or for that matter, to establish how many 'races' there supposedly are. ] (]) 14:53, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
	:~~:::Ethnicity,~~ on the ~~other hand, may be more measurable, because it is dependent on culture and ancestry rather than~~ on ~~physical~~ ~~appearance~~. ] (]) 14:58, 10 ~~October~~ ~~2013~~ (UTC)		:] ("the Unabomber") comes to mind. --] (]) 07:06, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
	::~~:::]~~ is ~~dependant~~ on ~~who/what~~ ~~people~~ ~~think~~ ~~they~~ ~~are.~~ ~~Nothing~~ ~~more~~, ~~nothing~~ ~~less.~~ ~~And~~ ~~what~~ do ~~you~~ ~~measure~~ ~~culture with?~~ ] (]) 15:04, 10 ~~October~~ ~~2013~~ (UTC)		::I second this. Ted the Unabomber only got finally caught by chance, only after his brother happened to recognise him. ] (]) 08:43, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			:More than a few killed for money; ] apparently just for joy. The case of ] comes to mind, who hoped to demonstrate superior intellect; if they had not bungled their first killing despite spending seven months planning everything, more would surely have followed.  --] 15:09, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::::::::That is more of an understatement. Classification of ethnicity based on skin colour or on perceived historical or ancestral links with certain geographical locations ''is'' problematic and unscientific; however, that doesn't mean that classification of ethnicity is less important. As a matter of fact, the following source shows that ethnic identification is important in its relationship with health and other indicators and asks for a clearer understanding of the processes involved in ethnic identification in England: Karlsen, S. (2004). 'Black like Beckham'? Moving beyond definitions of ethnicity based on skin colour and ancestry. Ethnicity & Health, 9(2), 107-137. doi:10.1080/1355785042000222842. Sure, ethnicity may be dependent on "who/what people think they are", but your "nothing more" part is arguable due to the perceived correlations between ethnicity and health. And furthermore, I didn't mean quantitative measurement; I meant to say qualitative "measurement" or putting people into categories. ] (]) 15:30, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
			:]. ] (]) 13:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::Hogwash ATG, thats a silly eucentirc version without any regard for the rest of the world. All jews are NOT European (and hae not been persecuted either)/. Ashkenazis (who are the lasrgest immigrants to teh US) are white./ There race is white, then you have Mizrahi and Sephardic who look totally different. Indian Jews (and Ethiopians and East Asians) look like thaeir counterparts from that part of the world.
	::::::Any study will tell you that are varied definition so "nothing more, nothing less" is absoltuely silly rooted in nothing but personal opinion.] (]) 15:15, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::Nobody has suggested that "Jews are all European". As for my definition of ethnicity, it is the one given in our (well sourced) article on the subject. Read it. You might learn something. ] (]) 15:32, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

			== Missing fire of London ==
	:I think that the degree of genetic integration with non-Jewish populations must be higher than is sometimes assumed, despite the evidence of traceable Y-chromosomes. (For one thing, it is immensely more drastic for a man to consider conversion than a woman...) Certainly to my eye Dutch Jews look Dutch, Russian Jews look Russian, etc. See also ]... ] (]) 15:29, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

			] covered the in this somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but apparently factual, film. At 00:15 it refers to 'the biggest London blaze since 1892'. What happened in 1892 that could be considered comparable to the Palace's demise, or at least sufficiently well-known to be referred to without further explanation?
	*Might there not be some sort of conspiracy? ] (]) 19:00, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

			I can see nothing in ], ], ] or ]. The records "May 8, 1892 - Scott's Oyster Bar, Coventry Street. 4 dead.", but also lists later fires with larger death tolls. Does anyone have access to the Journal of the ]'s article ? <span class="nowrap">] <sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></span> 13:48, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
	== What proportion of Americans were raised in Christian households? ==

			:I see the ] destroyed half the capital of Newfoundland and Labrador. But comparing that to ], which destroyed only the Crystal Palace, is an odd choice. ] ] 14:45, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
	It seems to be quite common to find a Christian or someone who is raised Christian in the United States (i.e. sometimes people may say that they celebrate Easter and Christmas with their families). My question is, what proportion of the population were raised Christian or came from Christian households? ] (]) 16:33, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
			::It would also be odd to call it a "London blaze".  --] 15:15, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
	:] says that 73% of Americans self-identify as Christians in a 2012 survey. --]''''']''''' 16:39, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
	:(ec) Aside from the inherit problems that no one is obligated to report this data (unlike Census) & that this data is dependent on respondents who are not swearing to it's accuracy, may help answer your questions.] 16:44, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

			:::The closest I found was the ]. ] (]) 16:30, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
	: I know Jewish people who celebrate Christmas with their families. They certainly do not consider themselves Christian families. And when I say "celebrate Christmas", I mean exactly what most people who call themselves Christians do, i.e. share presents and gorge themselves stupid, but go nowhere near any church. -- ] </sup></font></span>]] 18:24, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
			::::Also a large fire at Wood Street in the City in 1882 (perhaps later mistaken for 1892?). ] (]) 16:40, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
	::On ''Arthur's Perfect Christmas'', Francine Frensky and Muffy Crosswire were mad at each other. Francine wanted to celebrate Hanukkah with her Jewish family, not going to Muffy's party. Muffy assumed that Hanukkah was not important as Christmas, and Francine said, "Well, it is to me!" and slammed the phone down. Jack of Oz, do you mean eating a very large Christmas banquet for "gorge themselves stupid"? I think many people do that during the Big Holidays in many cultural traditions. :) ] (]) 18:30, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
			:::::I too wonder whether the Movietone newsreader was the victim of a typo. In December ''1897'' ] suffered "the greatest fire...that has occurred in the City since the Great Fire of 1666". . --] (]) 11:46, 2 January 2025 (UTC) That's also mentioned, I now see, in Verbarson's London Fire Journal link. --] (]) 12:24, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

			:{{re\|Verbarson}} ''Fires in London and the Metropolitan Fire Brigade in 1892'' is available on JSTOR as part of the Misplaced Pages Library. It doesn't give details of any individual fires. ] (]) 16:51, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
	==Deregulation in 2000s in the US==
			::{{Re\|DuncanHill}}, so it is. The DOI link in that article is broken; I should have been more persistent with the JSTOR search. Thank you. <span class="nowrap">] <sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></span> 17:15, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
	Does anyone know about major industry deregulations (laws) after the year 2000? This page (http://en.wikipedia.org/Deregulation) lists many of them from late 1970s to late 1990s. However, I am curious if much has happened since year 2000 in any major industry in the US. Need this information for a research project.--] (]) 18:43, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
			:Unexpectedly, from the ''Portland Guardian'' (that's ]): Dated 26 November 1892. ] ] 07:02, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
	:I looked at ], since Republicans are generally the party of deregulation in the US. It says that Bush was big on regulation, but it's entirely sourced to an article in ''Reason'', a libertarian publication, so that should be taken with a grain of salt. I can't think of any ''major'' deregulation after 2000; the focus in the main ] article is probably about right. Checking Google under {{Google\|deregulation under bush}} (it all seems to focus on 43) yields mostly a partisan mix of the left saying Bush deregulated and caused the financial crisis and the right pushing back against that. And while less intuitive, {{Google\|deregulation under obama}} offers some similar, mostly partisan, sources. --] (]) 19:08, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
			::Oh, the poor ducks.  --] 12:05, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			::<small>The whole OCR transcript of that blurred newspaper column is hilarious. "The fames have obtained a firm bold", indeed! {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ] (]) 12:07, 2 January 2025 (UTC)</small>
			::Setting aside the unsung history of the passionate ducks of London, what I see in that clipping is:
			::* 1892 - Australia is still a colony (18+ years to go)
			::* which is linked to the UK by (i) long-distance shipping, and (ii) ]
			::* because of (i), the London docks are economically important
			::* because of (ii), they get daily updates from London
			::Therefore, the state of the London docks (and the possible fate of the Australian ships there) is of greater importance to Australian merchants than it is to most Londoners. So headlines in Portland may not reflect the lesser priority of that news in the UK? <span class="nowrap">] <sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></span> 17:15, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Yes, I was highly impressed by the rapidity of the Victorian Victorian telegraph system there. But my money's on Antiquary's theory, above - I think the newsreel announcer's script had 1892 as a typo for 1897. ] ] 18:31, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Which I have finally found (in WP) at ] (using the same cite as Antiquary). It does look persuasively big ("The Greatest Fire of Modern Times" - ]), though there were no fatalities. Despite that, an inquest was held. It sounds much more likely than the docks fire to have been memorable in 1936. <span class="nowrap">] <sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></span> 19:26, 2 January 2025 (UTC)


			= January 4 =

			== Could the Sack of ] be almost ==

			historical in the sense that the story of what happened, happened to a different city but was transferred to Jericho?] (]) 05:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:It might be. But then again, it might not be. Following whatever links there are to the subject within the article might be a good start for finding out about whatever theories there might be. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 07:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:To believe that the events in the story are historical, whether for Jericho or another city, amounts to believing in a miracle. Barring miracles, no amount of horn-blowing and shouting can bring defensive walls down.
			:Jericho was destroyed in the 16th century BCE. The first version of the ] was written in the late 7th century BCE, so there are 9 centuries between the destruction and the recording of the story. An orally transmitted account, passed on through some thirty generations, might have undergone considerable changes, turning a conquest with conventional war practices, possibly with sound effects meant to install fear in the besieged, into a miraculous event.  --] 10:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

			: The sack was described in the ], which however was likely compiled around 640–540 BCE, some six or seven centuries after the supposed Hebrew conquest of Canaan. Some scholars now discount the whole Exodus and Conquest narrative as political lobbying written by ] (which the Persians later took over) hoping to be given control over the former territory of Israel as well as being restored to their native Judah.
			:The narrative logically explains why a people once 'Egyptian slaves' (like all subjects of the Pharoah) were later free in Canaan, but by then it was likely forgotten that Egypt once controlled almost the entirety of Canaan, from which it withdrew in the ]. The Hebrew peoples of the (always separate) states of Israel and Judah emerged from Canaanite culture ''in situ'', though minor folk movements (for example, of the ], who often had Egyptian names) may have had a role. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ] (]) 10:52, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I heard the sack of Jericho in book of Joshua was an explanatory myth, not some kind of Exile claim to ownership, which is more logical anyway. If there were a more recent city that was sacked, it would be less than the estimate of 30 geneations of remembrance. I did forget to stress that when I asked if the story could be almost historical that I wasn't suggesting that Jericho's walls were supernaturally destroyed by trumpets. After all, the actual method of conquest in the story could be the connivance of the traitor Rahab.] (]) 02:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Oh, certainly the myth likely existed before it was consolidated with others into the written documents, just as stories about the mythical ] may have been adapted into the fictional ] of the supposedly contemporary ] describing his exploits in the 6th century BCE court of ], although scholars generally agree that this was actually written in the period 167–163 BCE. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ] (]) 07:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

			::The Israelites partly emerged ''in situ'' (though there was also a definite nomad/pastoralist component), especially along the West Bank hill-chain (running in an approximate north-south direction) where the ] took hold among the rural inhabitants there. They were not originally city-dwellers, and their culture could not have been consolidated until the power of the Canaanite cities in that area had declined, and it's not too hard to believe that they sometimes moved against what cities remained, so that part of the conquest narrative is not necessarily a pure myth. Jericho was in the valley (not along the hill-chain), so was not part of the core settled rural agricultural four-room house area, but was inhabited more by pastoralists/animal-herders who became affiliated... ] (]) 21:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

			==Accessibility, for URLs in text document==
			We've been asked to increase the accessibility of all documents we produce, esp. syllabi. I use WordPerfect, where I don't seem to be able to have a URL with a descriptive text in the way Word allows. 508 is the operative term. I'm trying this out: "Princeton University has some handy tips on what is called “active reading, on this webpage: https://mcgraw.princeton.edu/active-reading-strategies." In other words, descriptive text followed by a bare URL. Is that good for screen readers? {{U\|Graham87}}, how does this look/sound to you? Thanks for your help, ] (]) 18:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:{{replyto\|Drmies}} I wouldn't make a general rule about that as it's context-dependent ... depending on how many URL's are in a document, reading them might get annoying. In general I'd prefer to read a link with descriptive text rather than a raw URL, because the latter aren't always very human-readable ... but I don't think this is really an accessibility issue; just do what would make sense for a sighted reader here. ] (]) 00:34, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::], thanks. There's only one or two in a ten-page document. According to our bosses, this is an accessibility issue--but it seems to me as if someone sounded an alarm and now everyone who doesn't actually know much about the issue is telling us to comply with a set of directives which they haven't given us. Instead, we are directed to some self-help course that involves only Word. It's fun. ] (]) 15:34, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Stop using WordPerfect and start using Word. --] 07:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I don't know why, but it seems many legal professionals prefer WordPerfect. ] (]) 10:21, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::], thanks so much for that helpful suggestion. ] (]) 15:27, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:You can create a hyperlink to a file using WordPerfect. First, you select text or a graphic you want to create a hyperlink. Then you click “Tools”, select “Hyperlink” and then type a path or document you want to link to. ] (]) 10:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::], that sounds like it might work: thank you. ] (]) 15:34, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:{{small\|Do web browsers display WordPerfect documents? I don't think I have a WordPerfect viewing app installed on my platform (macOS). Does anyone have a ] of a WordPerfect document handy?  --] 14:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			::], WP translates easily to PDF and to Word. I use PDFs in my ]. ] (]) 15:34, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::You can see why WordPerfect is popular in legal circles at ] (fourth bullet point) and ]. ] (]) 16:48, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I don't have the feeling this answers my question. Would I have to find and install an app that translates .wpd documents to .pdf or .doc documents? Would I then be able to tell my browser to use this app? The question is informative, not meant to bash a product that I have zero familiarity with.  --] 17:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I've opened early WordPerfect (WP 5.1) documents using both Word and Firefox without any need for a third party translator. The only trick was changing the file extension to .WPD so that my computer could create the file association more easily. In the old days, file extensions were not so rigorously restrictive and many files ended up with extensions like .01 or .v4 or whatever. ] (]) 17:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I cannot check if it would work for me, for lack of access to any WordPerfect document of any age.  --] 21:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::: ] ] 00:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Thanks, finally an answer. When I click on a {{mono\|.wpd}} link, the file is downloaded. I can then open and view it with ]. (I can also open it with ], but then I get to see garbage like ╖#<m\r╛∞¼_4YÖ¤ⁿVíüd╤Y.)  --] 14:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Yes, web browsers do display WordPerfect documents. If you google “wpd online viewer”, you will find a lot of them. ] (]) 23:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::When I google , I get two hits, one to this page and one to where you can <u>upload</u> a WPD document in order to be able to view it online. What happens when you view an html page with something like {{mono\|<nowiki><a href="file:///my-document.wpd">Looky here!</a></nowiki>}} embedded?  --] 13:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Yes, you're right. Only Docx2doc (https://www.docx2doc.com/convert) and ] provide online viewers now. However, there are still other offline alternative, such as Cisdem (https://www.cisdem.com/document-reader-mac.html) and ]. ] (]) 09:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Some other text editors, such as ], can open and view WPD files. However, after editing, the WPD files can only be saved as other formats, such as docx or doc. ] (]) 09:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

			One more thing that just came up--we got rapped on the fingers though the mandatory "training" didn't touch on it. We've been told that hyphens are bad. The internet tells me that screenreaders have trouble with hyphenated words, but does this apply also to date ranges? {{U\|Graham87}}, does yours get this right, "Spring Break: 17-21 March"? For now I'm going with "Spring Break, 17 to 21 March", but it just doesn't look good to my traditional eyes. And on top of that I have to use sans serif fonts... ] (]) 17:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			*To give another example, I have to redo this: "Final grades are computed along the following scale: A: 90-100; B+: 87-89; B: 80-86; C+: 77-79; C: 70-76; D+: 67-69; D: 60-66; F: Below 60." ] (]) 17:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			**{{replyto\|Drmies}} Under its default setting my screen reader does read out the hyphens, but I have my punctuation set lower than normal because I don't like hearing too much information so it doesn't for me. The other major Windows screen reader, ], also reads them out by default. ] (]) 01:05, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			***Thanks ]--I appreciate your expertise. ] (]) 01:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			***:As recently discussed on the Help or Teahouse desk, a date or other range should ''technically'' use an unspaced ], not a hyphen (according to most manuals of style, including our own), but I doubt that screen readers would notice the difference. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ] (]) 08:23, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

			= January 5 =

			== How to search for awkwardly named topics ==

			On and off I've been looking for good sources for the concepts of ] and ] so as to improve the articles, but every time I try I only get one or two somewhat helpful results. Many of the results are not of material about the concepts of general union or trade union federations, but often about a ''specific'' instance of them, and as a result hard to gleen a lot from about the broader concept. Typcially this is because of issues such as many general unions being named as such (for example ]). I'm aware of the search trick that'd be something like {{tq\|"general union" -Transport & General Workers' Union}} but I've found it largely cumbersome and ineffective, often seeming to filter out any potential material all together

			Thought I'd ask because I'd like to improve those articles, and this is an issue I'm sure would come up again for me otherwise on other articles ] (]) 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

			:Do any of the articles listed at ] help? ] (]) 14:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:If you search for , most hits will not be about a specific instance.  --] 14:43, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

			= January 6 =

			== What does the ] consist of? ==

			I asked about this at the article talk page and WikiProject Palestine, no response. Maybe it's not a question Misplaced Pages can answer, but I'm curious and it would improve the article. ] (]) 09:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*It's acronym (or an abbreviation) for the four principles enumerated in the article. Like how the ] ''is'' the first ten amendments to the US Constitution. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 13:16, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:''Thawabit'' is short for ''alThawabit alWataniat alFilastinia'', the "Palestinian National Constants". ''Thawabit'' is the plural of '']'', "something permanent or invariable; constant".  --] 13:36, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:What I'm saying is that I'm not sure the article is correct. The sourcing is thin, reference are paywalled, offline, or dead, and Google isn't helpful. Other scholarly and activist sources give different versions of the Thawabet, e.g. adds the release of Palestinian prisoners, adds that Palestine is indivisible. The article says that these principles were formulated by the PLO in 1977 but doesn't link to a primary source (like the Bill of Rights). I don't know if you're a subject matter expert here, I'm not--actually trying to figure this out. ] (]) 13:39, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::I was able to access the paywalled articles through the Misplaced Pages library, which adds a little more clarity. ] (]) 10:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

			:According to , a fifth principle was added in 2012: "the objection to recognize the State of Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people". However, I cannot find this in the  --] 13:29, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I checked the Arabic Misplaced Pages article before I responded above, and they list the same four principles. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 13:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::That appears to be a translation of the English article, so this doesn't mean much to me. ] (]) 13:44, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I've poked around a little, and there doesn't appear to have been any change. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 13:59, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::The list in the book I linked to above is not the same as that in our article. The book does not include a "right to resistance", but demands the release by Israel of all Palestinian prisoners. It would be good to have a sourced, authoritative version, in particular the actual 1977 formulation by the PLO. Of course, nothing is so changeable as political principles, so one should expect non-trivial amendments made in the course of time.  --] 14:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::That book is incorrect. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 21:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::How do you know?  --] 00:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::The text does not explicitly say, "among others", but the use of {{lang\|ar\|بها بما في ذلك}} suggests that this list of four principles is not exhaustive.  --] 00:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

			= January 7 =

			== Is there such a thing as a joke type index? ==

			Has anyone produced an index of joke types and schemata (schemes?) along the lines of the ] for folk tales? More generally what kind of studies of the structure of jokes and humor are available? Has anyone come up with an A.I. that can generate new jokes? ] (]) 18:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:For starters, there's ]. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 21:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:AI generated jokes have been around for years. Just Google for it. They range from weird to meh. ]\|] 10:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:] made an attempt of sorts in his two joke collections, but it was kind of a half-assed approach: there are a bunch of indices printed on pages, but no key tying them together per se. His interest was in the core of the subject of the joke, so he might have said, for example, that ''these'' jokes were all based on unresolved Oedipal drives while ''those'' jokes were based on hatred of the mother (he was a capital "F" Freudian). The link Bugs shared is more about the formats of the jokes themselves, though some are also differentiated by their subject (albeit in a more superficial way than Legman attempted). ] (]) 21:15, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

			:] has attempted to develop a theory of humour (as well as art and discovery), first in ''Insight and Outlook'' (1949) and slightly elaborated further in '']'' (1964). He did, however, not develop a typology of jokes. IMO ]'s ] presented in ''Semantic Mechanisms of Humor'' (1985) is essentially the same as Koestler's, but Raskin does not reference Koestler in the book. For an extensive overview of theories of humour see .  --] 00:51, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

			= January 8 =

			== ''The Nest'' magazine, UK, 1920s ==

			I have a copy of {{cite book \| title = The Grocer's Window Book \| year = 1922 \| location = London \| publisher = The Nest Magazine }}, "arranged by The Editor of ''The Nest''". The address of ''The Nest'' Magazine is given as 15 Arthur Street, London, EC4. It contains suggestions for arranging window displays in an attractive manner to attract customers into independent grocer's shops. I would be interested to know more about ''The Nest''. I suspect it may have something to do with Nestles Milk, as 1) the back cover is a full-page advertisement for Nestles and Ideal Milk, and there are several other adverts for Nestles products in the book, and 2) one of the suggested window displays involves spelling out "IDEAL" with tins of Ideal Milk. Thank you, ] (]) 02:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

			== Historical U.S. population data by age (year 1968) ==

			In the year 1968, what percentage of the United States population was under 25 years old? I am wondering about this because I am watching the movie ], and want to know if a percentage claimed in the film was pulled out of a hat or was based in fact. ] (]) 04:17, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:What percentage did they give? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 05:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			::52% (it's on the movie poster). ] ] 16:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Tabel No. 6 in the (p. 8) gives, for 1960, {{val\|80093}} Kpeople age 0–24 on a total population of {{val\|180007}} Kpeople, corresponding to 44.5%, and, for 1970, {{val\|94095}} Kpeople age 0–24 on a total population of {{val\|204265}} Kpeople, corresponding to 46.1%. Interpolation results in an estimate of 45.8% for 1968.  --] 12:36, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

			== Countries with greatest land mass ==

			Can someone please fill in these blanks? Thank you.

			1. Currently, the USA ranks as number _____ among countries with the greatest land mass.

			2. If the USA were to "annex" or "acquire" both Canada and Greenland, the USA would rank as number _____ among countries with the greatest land mass.

			Thanks. ] (]) 05:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:See ], which gives a nuanced answer to your first question, and the answer to your second question is obvious from the data in the article.-] (]) 05:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

			= January 9 =

Latest revision as of 01:39, 9 January 2025

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December 26

What would the president Trump brokered peace treaty in Ukraine look like?

I know this is probably speculation, but going by what I've read in a few articles - how would the new president sort this out?

- the war stops

- Russia withdraws all troops from the invaded regions of Ukraine

- Ukraine withdraws all troops from the same regions

- these regions become a DMZ, under control of neither party for the next 25 years, patrolled by the United Nations (or perhaps the USA/Britain and China/North Korea jointly)

- Russia promises to leave Ukraine alone for 25 years

- Ukraine promises not to join NATO or the EU for 25 years

- A peace treaty will be signed

- The can will be kicked down the road for 25 years, at which point more discussions or wars will commence

So maybe the Americans will say "this is the best deal you're going to get, in the future we're going to be spending our money on our own people and no-one else - if you don't take it, we'll let the Russians roll right over you and good luck to you".

Is this basically what is being said now? I think this is what Vance envisioned. 146.90.140.99 (talk) 03:01, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

The downside is that the residents of the buffer zone will be compelled to eat their pets. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 03:12, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Or each other's pets. —Tamfang (talk) 21:52, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

You seem to be overlooking one of the major obstacles to peace -- unless it suffers a stinging military defeat, Russia won't withdraw from territories belonging to 1990s Ukraine which it's formally annexed -- Crimea and Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia... -- AnonMoos (talk) 03:14, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

You're right, Russia won't withdraw from territories belonging to 1990s Ukraine, but it is likely that Ukraine does not expect Russia to do so too. Restoring to pre-war territories and the independent of Crimean, Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk, and Zaporizhzhia are the best Ukraine can hope for. Stanleykswong (talk) 10:10, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Never heard of any such plan. 25 years? This is completely made up. Can't say I'm surprised since this is the same guy who asked the previous "question". My understanding is that Misplaced Pages and the Reference Desk are not a forum for debate. This is not Facebook. But this guy seems to think otherwise. Anyway, there's no way that the territories Russia has annexed will ever go back to the Ukraine. The only question which remains is what guarantees can be given to Ukraine that Russia will never try something like this ever again and eat it up piecemeal. The best answer (from Ukraine's point of view) would have been that it join NATO but of course Russia won't have it. If not that, then what? This's exactly where the "art of the deal" comes in. Speculating in advance on Misplaced Pages is pointless. Better to do that on Facebook. 178.51.7.23 (talk) 03:49, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

You're right, by policy Misplaced Pages is not a forum and not a soapbox. But attend also to the policy Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks. Oh, and the guideline assume good faith is another good one. Card Zero (talk) 10:27, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Further, it's a bit pointless to tell an OP that WP is not a forum or a soapbox, but then immediately engage in debate with them about the matter they raise. -- Jack of Oz 18:57, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

A politician's butt dominates his brain. What he is going to do is more important than what he had said. Stanleykswong (talk) 09:57, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Expect that a concept of a peace plan will be ready soon after day one. Until then we can only speculate whose concept. Will it be Musk's, Trump's, Vance's, Rubio's, Hegseth's, Kellogg's? The latter's plan is believed to involve Ukraine ceding the Donbas and Luhansk regions, as well as Crimea, to Russia, after which the negotiators can proclaim: "Mission accomplished. Peace for our time." --Lambiam 10:17, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

There may also be peace plans required for a possible US incursion in Canada and Greenland / Denmark. All three are members of the NATO, so this may be tricky. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 18:42, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Isn't this one of those "crystal ball" things we are supposed to avoid here? - Jmabel | Talk 21:40, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Agree Slowking Man (talk) 00:37, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

If the OP provided an actual source for this claim, then it could be discussed more concretely. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:40, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

It is not a claim, but a question, "What is being said now about the prospects and form of a Trump-brokered peace treaty?" Should the OP provide a source for this question? If the question is hard to answer, it is not by lack of sources (I gave one above), but because all kinds of folks are saying all kinds of things about it. --Lambiam 19:27, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Whatever the plan may be, Putin reportedly doesn't like it. --Lambiam 22:38, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

ID card replacement

In California you can get a drivers' license (DL) from the DMV, which both serves as an ID card and attests that you are authorized to drive a car. Alternatively, from the same DMV, you can get a state ID card, which is the same as a DL except it doesn't let you drive. The card looks similar and the process for getting it (wait in line, fill in forms, get picture taken) is similar, though of course there is no driving test.

If you need a replacement drivers' license, you can request it online or through one of the DMV's self-service kiosks installed in various locations. That's reasonably convenient.

If you need a replacement ID card, you have to request it in person at a DMV office, involving travel, waiting in line, dealing with crowds, etc. DMV appointment shortens the wait but doesn't get rid of it. Plus the earliest available appointments are several weeks out.

My mom is elderly, doesn't drive, doesn't handle travel or waiting in line well, and needs a replacement ID card. I'm wondering why this discrepancy exists in the replacement process. Not looking for legal advice etc. but am just wondering if I'm overlooking something sane, rather than reflexive system justification. Thanks. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:DA2D (talk) 19:39, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

European (Brit) here, so responding with logic rather than knowledge, but . . . . If a replacement ID could be requested remotely and sent, it would probably be easier for some nefarious person to do so and obtain a fake ID; at least if attendance is required, the officials can tell that the 25-y-o illegal immigrant (say) they're seeing in front of them doesn't match the photo they already have of the elderly lady whose 'replacement' ID is being requested.

Drivers' licences have the additional safeguard that drivers are occasionally (often?) stopped by traffic police and asked to produce them, at which point discrepancies may be evident. {The poster formerly known as 87.812.230.195} 94.1.223.204 (talk) 00:30, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I guess there is some sense to that, though I haven't been stopped by police in quite a few years. I reached the DMV by phone and they say they won't issue an actual duplicate ID card: rather, they want to take a new picture of my mom and use that on the new card. Of course that's fine given that we have to go there anyway, but it's another way the DL procedure is different. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:DA2D (talk) 00:46, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

What purpose does the ID card serve? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 04:27, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

See Identity documents in the United States. These cards can be used for such purposes as boarding a plane, purchasing alcohol or cigarettes where proof of age is required, cashing a check, etc. Most folks use their driver's license for these purposes, but for the minority that does not drive, some form of official id is required from time to time, hence the delivery of such cards by states. --Xuxl (talk) 13:34, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm just wondering under what circumstances a shut-in would ever use it. The OP could maybe explain. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:52, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

OP did not describe a "shut-in". And anyway, have you ever heard the well-known phrase-or-saying "none of your fucking business"? DuncanHill (talk) 21:59, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Are you the OP? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:46, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Not OP and not a shut-in, but ID is necessary for registration for some online services (including ID requirements for access to some state and federal websites that administer things like taxes and certain benefits). I've had to provide photos/scans of photo ID digitally for a couple other purposes, too, though I can't remember off the top of my head what those were. I think one might have been to verify an I-9 form for employment. And the ID number from my driver's license for others. At least a couple instances have been with private entities rather than governments. The security implications always make me wary. -- Avocado (talk) 23:05, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Virtually all of the private information of US citizens has been repeatedly compromised in the last decade. Not a single company or government entity has faced consequences, and no US legislation is in the works to protect our private information in the future. For only one small example, the personal info of 73 million AT&T account holders was released on the dark web this year. In the US, if you're a private company, you can do just about anything and get away with it. If you're a private citizen, there's an entirely separate set of laws for you. Viriditas (talk) 21:25, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Unless someone affiliated with the CA DMV drops by here, I'm afraid none of us are going to be able to tell you why something is the way it is with them. Essentially it's requesting people to guess or predict at why X might be the case. Have you tried contacting them and asking them for an answer? You and/or her could also contact her CA state elected representatives and let them know your feelings on the matter. Sometimes representatives' offices will assist a constitutent with issues they're having involving government services ("constitutent services"). --Slowking Man (talk) 01:43, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

If your mom is old and her medical condition affects her ability to perform daily activities (she couldn't handle the travel or waiting in line well), she can ask her medical doctor to complete a DS 3234 (Medical Certification) form to verify her status. Then you can help her to fill out a DS 3235 application form on the DMV website and submit the required documents accordingly. Stanleykswong (talk) 09:14, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm wondering why this discrepancy exists in the replacement process.

The Real ID Act contributed to the discrepancy in the replacment process, as did several notable fake ID rings on both coasts. In other words, "this is why we can't have nice things". Viriditas (talk) 21:17, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

We can't have nice things because those in power regulate the allocation of goods. To distinguish between the deserving and undeserving they need people to have IDs. --Lambiam 10:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

December 27

Building containing candle cabinets

Is there a term (in pretty much any language) for a separate building next to a church, containing candle cabinets where people place votive candles? I've seen this mostly in Romania (and in at least one church in Catalonia), but suspect it is more widespread. (I've also seen just candle cabinets with no separate building, but I'm guessing that there is no term for that.) - Jmabel | Talk 01:40, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Shrine might cover it, but I suspect there's a more specific term in at least one language. {The poster fornerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.223.204 (talk) 21:49, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Somebody contributed a couple of photos of these kind of cabinets to commons. File:Orthodoxe_Nonne_putzt_Kerzenöfchen.JPG and File:Behälter_für_Opferkerzen_an_einer_orthodoxen_Kirche_in_Rumänien.JPG. Both are in Romania, and outdoor. I suppose the purpose of the cabinet is to protect the candles from the weather? I see pictures of indoor racks for candles. One example is File:Religión en Isla Margarita, Valle del Espíritu Santo.jpg which is an upcoming Commons picture of the day. This small dark metal shed full of dripping wax is apparently located in or near to the rather pretty and well-lit Basilica of Our Lady of El Valle, but I saw nothing to tell me the spatial relationship. Some discussion, again about Romanian Eastern Orthodox traditions, in this Flickr photo's text, which calls them ... candle cabinets. (They protect the candles from wind and rain, and protect the church from the candles.) Card Zero (talk) 11:11, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

@Card Zero: the things you are posting are, precisely, candle cabinets. What I'm talking about are structures like a proper building, but with just a portal, no doors as such. Here's a rare non-Romanian example I photographed in 2001: File:Montserrat - prayer candles.jpg. Remarkably, I don't see any Romanian examples that really show the structure, they are all too close-in detailed. I'll try to see if I can find an example I may have shot but not yet uploaded. - Jmabel | Talk 04:44, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

December 28

Truncated Indian map in Misplaced Pages

Why is the map of India always appears truncated in all of Misplaced Pages pages, when there is no official annexing of Indian territories in Kashmir, by Pakistan and China nor its confirmation from Indian govt ? With Pakistan and China just claiming the territory, why the world map shows it as annexed by them, separating from India ? TravelLover05 (talk) 15:05, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

The map at India shows Kashmir in light green, meaning "claimed but not controlled". It's not truncated, it's differently included. Card Zero (talk) 17:17, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Please see no 6 in Talk:India/FAQ ColinFine (talk) 20:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

December 29

Set animal's name = sha?

"In ancient Egyptian art, the Set animal, or sha," - this seems like a major citation needed. Any help? Temerarius (talk) 00:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Which article does that appear in? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

It must be this article. Omidinist (talk) 04:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

That term was in the original version of the article, written 15 years ago by an editor named "P Aculeius" who is still active. Maybe the OP could ask that user about it? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 05:00, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Each time, the word šꜣ is written over the Seth-animal.
Sometimes the animal is designated as sha (šꜣ) , but we are not certain at all whether this designation was its name.
When referring to the ancient Egyptian terminology, the so-called sha-animal, as depicted and mentioned in the Middle Kingdom tombs of Beni Hasan, together with other fantastic creatures of the desert and including the griffin, closely resembles the Seth animal.
šꜣ ‘Seth-animal’
He claims that the domestic pig is called “sha,” the name of the Set-animal.

Wiktionary gives šꜣ as meaning "wild pig", not mentioning use in connection with depictions of the Seth-animal. The hieroglyphs shown for šꜣ do not resemble those in the article Set animal, which instead are listed as ideograms in (or for) stẖ, the proper noun Seth. --Lambiam 08:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! The reason I brought it up was because the hieroglyph for the set animal didn't have the sound value to match in jsesh.

Temerarius (talk) 22:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

The word sha (accompanying
depictions of the Set animal)
in hieroglyphs

IMO they should be removed, or, if this can be sourced, be replaced by one or more of the following two: --Lambiam 09:49, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Budge's original drawing and second version of PharaohCrab's drawing; the original looked very different, and this one is clearly based on Budge's as traced by me in 2009, but without attribution.

The article—originally "Sha (animal)" was one of the first I wrote, or attempted to write, and was based on and built on the identification by E. A. Wallis Budge, in The Gods of the Egyptians, which uses the hieroglyph

for the word "sha", and includes the illustration that I traced from a scan and uploaded to Commons (and which was included in the article from the time of its creation in 2009 until December 21, 2024 when User:PharaohCrab replaced it with his original version of the one shown above; see its history for what it looked like until yesterday). I have had very little to do with the article since User:Sonjaaa made substantial changes and moved it to "Seth animal" in 2010; although it's stayed on my watchlist, I long since stopped trying to interfere with it, as it seemed to me that other editors were determined to change it to the way they thought it should be, and I wasn't sophisticated enough to intervene or advocate effectively for my opinions. In fact the only edit by me I can see after that was fixing a typo.

As for the word sha, that is what Budge called it, based on the hieroglyph associated with it; I was writing about this specific creature, which according to Budge and some of the other sources quoted above has some degree of independence from Set, as it sometimes appears without him and is used as the determinative of one or two other deities, whose totemic animal it might also have been. One of the other scholars quoted above questions whether the word sha is the name of the animal, but still associates the word with the animal: Herman Te Velde's article, "Egyptian Hieroglyphs as Signs Symbols and Gods", quoted above, uses slightly modified versions of Budge's illustrations; his book Seth, God of Confusion is also quoted above, both with the transliteration šꜣ, which in "Egyptian Hieroglyphs" he also renders sha. Percy Newberry is the source cited by the Henry Thompson quotation above, claiming that sha referred to a domestic pig as well as the Set animal, and a different god distinct from Set, though sharing the same attributes (claims of which Thompson seems skeptical). Herman Te Velde also cites Newberry, though he offers a different explanation for the meaning of "sha" as "destiny". All Things Ancient Egypt, also quoted above, calls the animal "the so-called sha-animal", while Classification from Antiquity to Modern Times just uses šꜣ and "Seth-animal".

I'm not certain what the question here is; that the hieroglyph transliterated sha is somehow associated with the creature seems to have a clear scholarly consensus; most of the scholars use it as the name of the creature; Herman Te Velde is the only one who suggests that it might not be its name, though he doesn't conclude whether it is or isn't; and one general source says in passing "so-called sha-animal", which accepts that this is what it's typically referred to in scholarship, without endorsing it. Although Newberry made the connection with pigs, none of the sources seems to write the name with pig hieroglyphs as depicted above. Could you be clearer about what it is that's being discussed here? P Aculeius (talk) 16:47, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I asked because I couldn't find it in Gardiner (jsesh, no match when searching by sound value) or Budge (dictionary vol II.)

Temerarius (talk) 05:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

December 30

I do not say the Frenchman will not come. I only say he will not come by sea.

1. What is the ultimate source of this famous 1803 quote by John Jervis (1735 – 1823), 1st Earl of St Vincent, First Lord of the Admiralty at the time. I googled Books and no source is ever given except possibly another collection of quotations. The closest I got was: "At a parley in London while First Lord of the Admiralty 1803". That's just not good enough. Surely there must be someone who put this anecdote in writing for the first time.

2. Wouldn't you say this use of the simple present in English is not longer current in contemporary English, and that the modern equivalent would use present continuous forms "I'm not saying... I'm only saying..." (unless Lord Jervis meant to say he was in the habit of saying this; incidentally I do realize this should go to the Language Desk but I hope it's ok just this once)

178.51.7.23 (talk) 11:47, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Assuming he's talking about England, does he propose building a bridge over the Channel? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 12:13, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

How about a tunnel? --Wrongfilter (talk) 12:29, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

It's a joke. He's saying that the French won't invade under any circumstances (see English understatement). Alansplodge (talk) 20:30, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

The First Lord of the Admiralty wouldn't be the one stopping them if the French came by tunnel (proposed in 1802) or air (the French did have hot air balloons). Any decent military officer would understand that an invasion by tunnel or balloon would have no chance of success, but this fear caused some English opposition against the Channel Tunnel for the next 150 years. Just hinting at the possibility of invasion by tunnel amongst military officers would be considered a joke.

Unless he was insulting the British Army (no, now I'm joking). PiusImpavidus (talk) 10:30, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

The quoted wording varies somewhat. Our article John Jervis, 1st Earl of St Vincent has it as "I do not say, my Lords, that the French will not come. I say only they will not come by sea" in an 1801 letter to the Board of Admiralty, cited to Andidora, Ronald (2000). Iron Admirals: Naval Leadership in the Twentieth Century. Greenwood Publishing Group. p. 3. ISBN 978-0-313-31266-3.. Our article British anti-invasion preparations of 1803–05 has Jervis telling the House of Lords "I do not say the French cannot come, I only say they cannot come by sea", and then immediately, and without citation, saying it was more probably Keith. I can't say I've ever seen it attributed to Keith anywhere else. DuncanHill (talk) 13:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Hmm, Andidora does not in fact say it was in a letter to the Board of Admiralty, nor does he explicitly say 1801. And his source, The Age of Nelson by G J Marcus has it as Jervis telling the House of Lords sometime during the scare of '03-'05. Marcus doesn't give a source. DuncanHill (talk) 13:52, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Robert Southey was attributing it to Lord St Vincent as early as 1806, and while I don't want to put too much weight on his phrase "used to say" it does at any rate raise the possibility that St Vincent said (or wrote) it more than once. Perhaps Marcus and our St Vincent article are both right. --Antiquary (talk) 16:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Interesting. Thanks. Some modern accounts (not Southey apparently) claim Lord St Vincent was speaking in the House of Lords. If that was the case, wouldn't it be found in the parliamentary record? How far back does the parliamentary record go for the House of Commons and/or the House of Lords. 178.51.7.23 (talk) 17:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

As for (2), the tense is still alive and kicking, if I do say so myself. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:12, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

You don't say? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.223.204 (talk) 02:47, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

This is not what I am asking. 178.51.7.23 (talk) 05:05, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Then I will answer you more directly. You are wrong: while the usage you quote is less common than it once was, it is still current, according to my experience as a native BrE speaker for over 65 years. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.223.204 (talk) 13:32, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

I kid you not. --Lambiam 23:47, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

What percentage of Ancient Greek literature was preserved?

Has anyone seen an estimate of what percentage of Ancient Greek literature (broadly understood: literature proper, poetry, mathematics, philosophy, history, science, etc.) was preserved. It doesn't matter how you define "Ancient Greek literature", or if you mean the works available in 100 BC or 1 AD or 100 AD or 200 AD... Works were lost even in antiquity. I'm just trying to get a rough idea and was wondering if anyone ever tried to work out an estimate. 178.51.7.23 (talk) 17:58, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't have an answer handy for you at the moment, but I can tell you that people have tried to work out an estimate for this, at least from the perspective of "how many manuscripts containing such literature managed to survive past the early Middle Ages". We've worked this one out, with many caveats, by comparing library catalogues from very early monasteries to known survivals and estimating the loss rate. -- asilvering (talk) 20:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

One estimate is (less than) one percent. --Askedonty (talk) 20:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

We have a Lost literary work article with a large "Antiquity" section. AnonMoos (talk) 21:15, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

These are works known to have existed, because they were mentioned and sometimes even quoted in works that have survived. These known lost works are probably only a small fraction of all that have been lost. --Lambiam 23:35, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Few things which might be helpful:

So profuse was Galen's output that the surviving texts represent nearly half of all the extant literature from ancient Greece.
Although not just Greek, but only 1% of ancient literature survives. --ExclusiveEditor _{🔔 Ping Me!} 11:12, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

The following quantities are known:

S,

the number of preserved works,

L,

the (unknown) number of lost works, and

M_{L},

the number of lost works of which we know, through mentions in preserved works. In a (very) naive model, let

\mu

stand for the probability that a given work (lost or preserved) is mentioned in some other preserved work (so

M_{L}=\mu L

). The expected number of mentions of preserved works in other preserved works is then

M_{S}=\mu (S-1).

If we have the numerical value of the latter quantity (which is theoretically obtainable by scanning all preserved works), we can obtain an estimate for

\mu

and compute

L\approx {\frac {M_{L}}{M_{S}}}(S-1).

--Lambiam 13:09, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Even without seeing any professional estimate of the kind I'm asking about here, my ballpark figure was that it had to be less than 1 percent, simply from noting how little of even the most celebrated and important authors has been preserved (e.g. about 5 percent for Sophocles) and how there are hundreds of authors and hundreds of works for which we only have the titles and maybe a few quotes, not to mention all those works of which we have not an inkling, the number of which it is, for this very reason, extremely hard to estimate.

But as a corollary to my first question I have another three:

1. Has any modern historian tackled this paradox, namely the enormous influence that the culture of the Ancient World has had on the West while at the same time how little we actually know about that culture, and as a consequence the problem that we seem to believe that we know much more than we actually do? in other words that our image of it that has had this influence on Western culture might be to some extent a modern creation and might be very different of what it actually was?

2. I understand that in this regard there can be the opposite opinion (or we can call it a hypothesis, or an article of faith) which is the one that is commonly held (at least implicitly): that despite all that was lost the main features of our knowledge of the culture of the Ancient World are secure and that no lost work is likely to have modified the fundamentals? Like I said this seems to be the position that is commonly implicitly held, but I'm interested to hear if any historian has discussed this question and defended this position explicitly in a principled way?

3. Finally to what extent is the position mentioned in point 2 simply a result of ignorance (people not being aware of how much was lost)? How widespread is (in the West) the knowledge of how much was lost? How has that awareness developed in the West, both at the level of the experts and that of the culture in general, since say the 15th century? Have you encountered any discussions of these points?

178.51.7.23 (talk) 08:40, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

The issues touched upon are major topics in historiography as well as the philosophy of history, not only for the Ancient (Classical) World but for all historical study. Traditionally, historians have concentrated on the culture of the high and mighty. The imprint on the historical record by hoi polloi is much more difficult to detect, except in the rare instances where they rose up, so what we think of as "the" culture of any society is that of a happy few. Note also that "the culture of the Ancient World" covers a period of more than ten centuries, in which kingdoms and empires rose and fell, states and colonies were founded and conquered, in an endless successions of wars and intrigues. On almost any philosophical issue imaginable, including natural philosophy, ancient philosophers have held contrary views. It is not clear how to define "the" culture of the Ancient World, and neither is it clear how to define the degree to which this culture has influenced modern Western society. It may be argued that the influence of say Plato or Sophocles has largely remained confined to an upper crust. I think historians studying this are well aware of the limitations of their source material, including the fact that history is written by the victors. --Lambiam 13:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

178.51.7.23 -- Think of it this way: What did it mean to "publish" something in the ancient world? You had at least one written manuscript of your work -- rarely more than a handful of such manuscripts. You could show what you had written to your friends, have it delivered to influential people, bequeath it to your heirs, or donate it to an archive or research collection (almost none of which were meaningfully public libraries in the modern sense of that phrase). However you chose to do it, once you were gone, the perpetuation of your work depended on other people having enough interest in it to do the laborious work of copying the manuscript, or being willing to pay to have a copy made. Works of literature which did not interest other people enough to copy manuscripts of it were almost always eventually lost, which ensured that a lot of tedious and worthless stuff was filtered out. Of course, pagan literary connoisseurs, Christian monks, Syriac and Arabic translators seeking Greek knowledge, and Renaissance Humanists all had different ideas of what was worth preserving, but between them, they ensured that a lot of interesting or engaging or informative works ended up surviving from ancient times. I'm sure that a number of worthy books still slipped through the gaps, but some losses were very natural and to be expected; for example, some linguists really wish that Claudius's book on the Etruscan language had survived, but it's not surprising that it didn't, since it would not have generally interested ancient, medieval, or renaissance literate people in the same way it would interest modern scholars struggling with Etruscan inscriptions.

By the way, college bookstores on or near campuses of universities which had a Classics program sometimes used to have a small section devoted to the small green-backed (Greek) and red-backed (Latin) volumes of the Loeb Classical Library, and you could get an idea of what survived from ancient times (and isn't very obscure or fragmentary) by perusing the shelves... AnonMoos (talk) 01:03, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Indeed - at the other end of the scale, the Description of Greece by Pausanias seems to have survived into the Middle Ages in a single MS (now of course lost), and there are no ancient references to either it or him known. Since the Renaissance it has been continuously in print. Johnbod (talk) 03:00, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

References

December 31

Was the fictional character "The Jackal" (as played by Edward Fox and Bruce Willis) based on Carlos The Jackal?

Talking about the fictional assassin from the books and films. I once read somewhere that the real Carlos The Jackal didn't like being compared to the fictional character, because he said he was a professional Marxist revolutionary, not merely a hitman for hire to the highest bidder (not in the article about him at the moment, so maybe not true). 146.90.140.99 (talk) 02:47, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

No, the character wasn't based on Carlos. The films are based on the 1971 historical fiction novel The Day of the Jackal by Frederick Forsyth, which begins with a fairly accurate account of the actual 1962 assassination attempt on Charles de Gaulle by the French Air Force lieutenant colonel Jean Bastien-Thiry, which failed. Subsequently in the fictional plot the terrorists hire an unnamed English professional hitman whom they give the codename 'The Jackal'.

Carlos the Jackal was a Venezuelan terrorist named Ilich Ramírez Sánchez operating in the 1970s and '80s. He was given the cover name 'Carlos' when in 1971 he joined the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. When authorities found some of his weapons stashed in a friend's house, a copy of Forsyth's novel was noticed on his friend's bookshelf, and a Guardian journalist then invented the nickname, as journalists are wont to do. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.223.204 (talk) 03:15, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

There's also the fictionalised Ilich Ramírez Sánchez / Carlos the Jackal from the Jason Bourne novels. PiusImpavidus (talk) 10:44, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

References

I am on to creating an article on Lu Chun soon. If anyone has got references about him other than those on google, it would be great if you could share them here. Thanks, ExclusiveEditor _{🔔 Ping Me!} 11:20, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Did you try the National Central Library of Taiwan? The library has a lot of collection about history of Tang dynasty. If you want to write a research paper for publication purpose, you need to know what have been written by others. Then the National Digital Library of Theses and Dissertation in Taiwan under the central library can be a good starting point. Stanleykswong (talk) 09:16, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Battle of the Granicus

This month some news broke about identification of the Battle of the Granicus site, stating in particular: "Professor Reyhan Korpe, a historian from Çanakkale Onsekiz Mart University (ÇOMÜ) and Scientific Advisor to the “Alexander the Great Cultural Route” project, led the team that uncovered the battlefield". However, per Battle of the Granicus#Location it seems that the exact site has been known since at least Hammond's 1980 article. Am I reading the news correctly that what Korpe's team actually did was mapping Alexander’s journey to the Granicus rather than identifying the battle site per se? Per news, "Starting from Özbek village, Alexander’s army moved through Umurbey and Lapseki before descending into the Biga Plain". Brandmeister 23:38, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

If Körpe and his team wrote a paper about their discovery, I haven't found it, so I can only go by news articles reporting on their findings. Apparently, Körpe gave a presentation at the Çanakkale Provincial Directorate of Culture and Tourism for an audience of local mayors and district governors, and I think the news reports reflect what he said there. Obviously, the presentation was in Turkish. Turkish news sources, based on an item provided by DHA, quote him as saying, "Bölgede yaptığımız araştırmalarda antik kaynakları da çok dikkatli okuyarak, yorumlayarak savaşın aşağı yukarı tam olarak nerede olduğunu, hangi köyler arasında olduğunu, ovanın tam olarak neresinde olduğunu bulduk." Google Translate turns this into, "During our research in the region, by reading and interpreting ancient sources very carefully, we found out more or less exactly where the war took place, which villages it took place between, and where exactly on the plain it took place." I cannot reconcile "more or less" with "exactly".

The news reports do not reveal the location identified by Körpe, who is certainly aware of Hammond's theory, since he cited the latter's 1980 article in earlier publications. One possibility is that the claim will turn out to have been able to confirm Hammond's theory definitively. Another possibility is that the location they identified is not "more or less exactly" the same as that of Hammond's theory. --Lambiam 02:08, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

January 1

Has there ever been an incident of a serial killer murdering another serial killer?

Question as topic. Has this ever happened outside of the movies? 146.90.140.99 (talk) 05:30, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

This is an interesting question. Just because you can't find any incident, doesn't mean this kind of case never happened (type II error). Stanleykswong (talk) 09:57, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Apparently yes: Dean Corll was killed by one of his his accomplices, Elmer Wayne Henley. --Antiquary (talk) 12:13, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Of course it would be more notable if the two were not connected to each other. --142.112.149.206 (talk) 08:22, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

If you're including underworld figures, this happens not infrequently. As an Aussie, a case that springs to mind was Andrew Veniamin murdering Victor Pierce. Both underworld serial murderers. I'm sure there are many similar cases in organised crime. Eliyohub (talk) 08:40, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Aren't hired killers distinct from the usual concept of a serial killer? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 09:11, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Outside the movies? Sure, on TV. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:09, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

The Dexter character from the multiple Dexter series is based on Pedro Rodrigues Filho, who killed criminals, including murderers. It is necessary to decide how many merders each of those murders did in order to decide if you would want to classify them as serial killers or just general murderers. 68.187.174.155 (talk) 19:04, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

It sounds like the Death Wish (1974 film) film series might have also drawn inspiration from Filho. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 03:24, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Another serial killer question

about 20 years ago, I saw a documentary where it was said that the majority of serial killers kill for sexual gratification, or for some sort of revenge against their upbringing, or because in their head that God (or someone else) told them to kill. But the FBI agent on the documentary said something about how their worst nightmare was an extremely intelligent, methodical killer who was doing what he did to make some sort of grand statement about society/political statement. That this sort of killer was one step ahead of law enforcement and knew all of their methods. Like a Hannibal Lecter type individual. He said that he could count on the fingers of one hand the sort of person who he was talking about, but that these killers were the most difficult of all to catch and by far the most dangerous. Can you tell me any examples of these killers? 146.90.140.99 (talk) 05:49, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Ted Kaczynski ("the Unabomber") comes to mind. --142.112.149.206 (talk) 07:06, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

I second this. Ted the Unabomber only got finally caught by chance, only after his brother happened to recognise him. Eliyohub (talk) 08:43, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

More than a few killed for money; Michael Swango apparently just for joy. The case of Leopold and Loeb comes to mind, who hoped to demonstrate superior intellect; if they had not bungled their first killing despite spending seven months planning everything, more would surely have followed. --Lambiam 15:09, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Joseph Paul Franklin. Prezbo (talk) 13:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Missing fire of London

British Movietone News covered the burning down of the Crystal Palace in this somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but apparently factual, film. At 00:15 it refers to 'the biggest London blaze since 1892'. What happened in 1892 that could be considered comparable to the Palace's demise, or at least sufficiently well-known to be referred to without further explanation?

I can see nothing in History of London, List of town and city fires, List of fires or 1892. The London Fire Journal records "May 8, 1892 - Scott's Oyster Bar, Coventry Street. 4 dead.", but also lists later fires with larger death tolls. Does anyone have access to the Journal of the Royal Statistical Society's article Fires in London and the Metropolitan Fire Brigade in 1892? -- Verbarson _edits 13:48, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

I see the Great Fire of 1892 destroyed half the capital of Newfoundland and Labrador. But comparing that to the Crystal Palace fire, which destroyed only the Crystal Palace, is an odd choice. Card Zero (talk) 14:45, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

It would also be odd to call it a "London blaze". --Lambiam 15:15, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

The closest I found was the 1861 Tooley Street fire. Alansplodge (talk) 16:30, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Also a large fire at Wood Street in the City in 1882 (perhaps later mistaken for 1892?). Alansplodge (talk) 16:40, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

I too wonder whether the Movietone newsreader was the victim of a typo. In December 1897 Cripplegate suffered "the greatest fire...that has occurred in the City since the Great Fire of 1666". . --Antiquary (talk) 11:46, 2 January 2025 (UTC) That's also mentioned, I now see, in Verbarson's London Fire Journal link. --Antiquary (talk) 12:24, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

@Verbarson: Fires in London and the Metropolitan Fire Brigade in 1892 is available on JSTOR as part of the Misplaced Pages Library. It doesn't give details of any individual fires. DuncanHill (talk) 16:51, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

@DuncanHill:, so it is. The DOI link in that article is broken; I should have been more persistent with the JSTOR search. Thank you. -- Verbarson _edits 17:15, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Unexpectedly, from the Portland Guardian (that's Portland, Victoria): GREAT FIRE IN LIONDON. A great fire is raging in the heart of the London ducks. Dated 26 November 1892. Card Zero (talk) 07:02, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Oh, the poor ducks. --Lambiam 12:05, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

The whole OCR transcript of that blurred newspaper column is hilarious. "The fames have obtained a firm bold", indeed! {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.84.253 (talk) 12:07, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Setting aside the unsung history of the passionate ducks of London, what I see in that clipping is:

1892 - Australia is still a colony (18+ years to go)
which is linked to the UK by (i) long-distance shipping, and (ii) telegraph cables
because of (i), the London docks are economically important
because of (ii), they get daily updates from London

Therefore, the state of the London docks (and the possible fate of the Australian ships there) is of greater importance to Australian merchants than it is to most Londoners. So headlines in Portland may not reflect the lesser priority of that news in the UK? -- Verbarson _edits 17:15, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, I was highly impressed by the rapidity of the Victorian Victorian telegraph system there. But my money's on Antiquary's theory, above - I think the newsreel announcer's script had 1892 as a typo for 1897. Card Zero (talk) 18:31, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Which I have finally found (in WP) at Timeline of London (19th century)#1890 to 1899 (using the same cite as Antiquary). It does look persuasively big ("The Greatest Fire of Modern Times" - Star), though there were no fatalities. Despite that, an inquest was held. It sounds much more likely than the docks fire to have been memorable in 1936. -- Verbarson _edits 19:26, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

January 4

Could the Sack of Jericho be almost

historical in the sense that the story of what happened, happened to a different city but was transferred to Jericho?Rich (talk) 05:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

It might be. But then again, it might not be. Following whatever links there are to the subject within the article might be a good start for finding out about whatever theories there might be. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 07:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

To believe that the events in the story are historical, whether for Jericho or another city, amounts to believing in a miracle. Barring miracles, no amount of horn-blowing and shouting can bring defensive walls down.

Jericho was destroyed in the 16th century BCE. The first version of the Book of Joshua was written in the late 7th century BCE, so there are 9 centuries between the destruction and the recording of the story. An orally transmitted account, passed on through some thirty generations, might have undergone considerable changes, turning a conquest with conventional war practices, possibly with sound effects meant to install fear in the besieged, into a miraculous event. --Lambiam 10:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The sack was described in the Book of Joshua, which however was likely compiled around 640–540 BCE, some six or seven centuries after the supposed Hebrew conquest of Canaan. Some scholars now discount the whole Exodus and Conquest narrative as political lobbying written by Jewish exiles in Babylonia (which the Persians later took over) hoping to be given control over the former territory of Israel as well as being restored to their native Judah.

The narrative logically explains why a people once 'Egyptian slaves' (like all subjects of the Pharoah) were later free in Canaan, but by then it was likely forgotten that Egypt once controlled almost the entirety of Canaan, from which it withdrew in the Late Bronze Age Collapse. The Hebrew peoples of the (always separate) states of Israel and Judah emerged from Canaanite culture in situ, though minor folk movements (for example, of the Tribe of Levi, who often had Egyptian names) may have had a role. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.84.253 (talk) 10:52, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I heard the sack of Jericho in book of Joshua was an explanatory myth, not some kind of Exile claim to ownership, which is more logical anyway. If there were a more recent city that was sacked, it would be less than the estimate of 30 geneations of remembrance. I did forget to stress that when I asked if the story could be almost historical that I wasn't suggesting that Jericho's walls were supernaturally destroyed by trumpets. After all, the actual method of conquest in the story could be the connivance of the traitor Rahab.Rich (talk) 02:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Oh, certainly the myth likely existed before it was consolidated with others into the written documents, just as stories about the mythical Danel may have been adapted into the fictional Daniel of the supposedly contemporary Book of Daniel describing his exploits in the 6th century BCE court of Nebuchadnezzar II, although scholars generally agree that this was actually written in the period 167–163 BCE. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.84.253 (talk) 07:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

The Israelites partly emerged in situ (though there was also a definite nomad/pastoralist component), especially along the West Bank hill-chain (running in an approximate north-south direction) where the Four-room house took hold among the rural inhabitants there. They were not originally city-dwellers, and their culture could not have been consolidated until the power of the Canaanite cities in that area had declined, and it's not too hard to believe that they sometimes moved against what cities remained, so that part of the conquest narrative is not necessarily a pure myth. Jericho was in the valley (not along the hill-chain), so was not part of the core settled rural agricultural four-room house area, but was inhabited more by pastoralists/animal-herders who became affiliated... AnonMoos (talk) 21:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Accessibility, for URLs in text document

We've been asked to increase the accessibility of all documents we produce, esp. syllabi. I use WordPerfect, where I don't seem to be able to have a URL with a descriptive text in the way Word allows. 508 is the operative term. I'm trying this out: "Princeton University has some handy tips on what is called “active reading, on this webpage: https://mcgraw.princeton.edu/active-reading-strategies." In other words, descriptive text followed by a bare URL. Is that good for screen readers? Graham87, how does this look/sound to you? Thanks for your help, Drmies (talk) 18:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

@Drmies: I wouldn't make a general rule about that as it's context-dependent ... depending on how many URL's are in a document, reading them might get annoying. In general I'd prefer to read a link with descriptive text rather than a raw URL, because the latter aren't always very human-readable ... but I don't think this is really an accessibility issue; just do what would make sense for a sighted reader here. Graham87 (talk) 00:34, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Graham87, thanks. There's only one or two in a ten-page document. According to our bosses, this is an accessibility issue--but it seems to me as if someone sounded an alarm and now everyone who doesn't actually know much about the issue is telling us to comply with a set of directives which they haven't given us. Instead, we are directed to some self-help course that involves only Word. It's fun. Drmies (talk) 15:34, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Stop using WordPerfect and start using Word. --Viennese Waltz 07:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't know why, but it seems many legal professionals prefer WordPerfect. Stanleykswong (talk) 10:21, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Viennese Waltz, thanks so much for that helpful suggestion. Drmies (talk) 15:27, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

You can create a hyperlink to a file using WordPerfect. First, you select text or a graphic you want to create a hyperlink. Then you click “Tools”, select “Hyperlink” and then type a path or document you want to link to. Stanleykswong (talk) 10:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Stanleykswong, that sounds like it might work: thank you. Drmies (talk) 15:34, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Do web browsers display WordPerfect documents? I don't think I have a WordPerfect viewing app installed on my platform (macOS). Does anyone have a URL of a WordPerfect document handy? --Lambiam 14:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

User:Lambiam, WP translates easily to PDF and to Word. I use PDFs in my LMS. Drmies (talk) 15:34, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

You can see why WordPerfect is popular in legal circles at WordPerfect#Key characteristics (fourth bullet point) and WordPerfect#Faithful customers. 2A00:23A8:1:D801:8C31:BAC2:88CF:A92B (talk) 16:48, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't have the feeling this answers my question. Would I have to find and install an app that translates .wpd documents to .pdf or .doc documents? Would I then be able to tell my browser to use this app? The question is informative, not meant to bash a product that I have zero familiarity with. --Lambiam 17:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I've opened early WordPerfect (WP 5.1) documents using both Word and Firefox without any need for a third party translator. The only trick was changing the file extension to .WPD so that my computer could create the file association more easily. In the old days, file extensions were not so rigorously restrictive and many files ended up with extensions like .01 or .v4 or whatever. Matt Deres (talk) 17:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I cannot check if it would work for me, for lack of access to any WordPerfect document of any age. --Lambiam 21:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Here's a bunch of them, in the DOJ archives. Card Zero (talk) 00:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks, finally an answer. When I click on a .wpd link, the file is downloaded. I can then open and view it with LibreOffice. (I can also open it with OpenOffice, but then I get to see garbage like ╖#<m\r╛∞¼_4YÖ¤ⁿVíüd╤?Y.) --Lambiam 14:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, web browsers do display WordPerfect documents. If you google “wpd online viewer”, you will find a lot of them. Stanleykswong (talk) 23:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

When I google , I get two hits, one to this page and one to a site where you can upload a WPD document in order to be able to view it online. What happens when you view an html page with something like <a href="file:///my-document.wpd">Looky here!</a> embedded? --Lambiam 13:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, you're right. Only Docx2doc (https://www.docx2doc.com/convert) and Jumpshare provide online viewers now. However, there are still other offline alternative, such as Cisdem (https://www.cisdem.com/document-reader-mac.html) and Apache. Stanleykswong (talk) 09:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Some other text editors, such as TextMaker, can open and view WPD files. However, after editing, the WPD files can only be saved as other formats, such as docx or doc. Stanleykswong (talk) 09:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

One more thing that just came up--we got rapped on the fingers though the mandatory "training" didn't touch on it. We've been told that hyphens are bad. The internet tells me that screenreaders have trouble with hyphenated words, but does this apply also to date ranges? Graham87, does yours get this right, "Spring Break: 17-21 March"? For now I'm going with "Spring Break, 17 to 21 March", but it just doesn't look good to my traditional eyes. And on top of that I have to use sans serif fonts... Drmies (talk) 17:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

To give another example, I have to redo this: "Final grades are computed along the following scale: A: 90-100; B+: 87-89; B: 80-86; C+: 77-79; C: 70-76; D+: 67-69; D: 60-66; F: Below 60." Drmies (talk) 17:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Drmies: Under its default setting my screen reader does read out the hyphens, but I have my punctuation set lower than normal because I don't like hearing too much information so it doesn't for me. The other major Windows screen reader, NVDA, also reads them out by default. Graham87 (talk) 01:05, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
  - Thanks Graham87--I appreciate your expertise. Drmies (talk) 01:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
    As recently discussed on the Help or Teahouse desk, a date or other range should technically use an unspaced En Dash, not a hyphen (according to most manuals of style, including our own), but I doubt that screen readers would notice the difference. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.84.253 (talk) 08:23, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

January 5

How to search for awkwardly named topics

On and off I've been looking for good sources for the concepts of general union and trade union federation so as to improve the articles, but every time I try I only get one or two somewhat helpful results. Many of the results are not of material about the concepts of general union or trade union federations, but often about a specific instance of them, and as a result hard to gleen a lot from about the broader concept. Typcially this is because of issues such as many general unions being named as such (for example Transport & General Workers' Union). I'm aware of the search trick that'd be something like "general union" -Transport & General Workers' Union but I've found it largely cumbersome and ineffective, often seeming to filter out any potential material all together

Thought I'd ask because I'd like to improve those articles, and this is an issue I'm sure would come up again for me otherwise on other articles Bejakyo (talk) 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Do any of the articles listed at Unionism help? Blueboar (talk) 14:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

If you search for , most hits will not be about a specific instance. --Lambiam 14:43, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

January 6

What does the Thawabit consist of?

I asked about this at the article talk page and WikiProject Palestine, no response. Maybe it's not a question Misplaced Pages can answer, but I'm curious and it would improve the article. Prezbo (talk) 09:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

It's acronym (or an abbreviation) for the four principles enumerated in the article. Like how the Bill of Rights is the first ten amendments to the US Constitution. Abductive (reasoning) 13:16, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
Thawabit is short for alThawabit alWataniat alFilastinia, the "Palestinian National Constants". Thawabit is the plural of thabit, "something permanent or invariable; constant". --Lambiam 13:36, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

What I'm saying is that I'm not sure the article is correct. The sourcing is thin, reference are paywalled, offline, or dead, and Google isn't helpful. Other scholarly and activist sources give different versions of the Thawabet, e.g.This one adds the release of Palestinian prisoners, this one adds that Palestine is indivisible. The article says that these principles were formulated by the PLO in 1977 but doesn't link to a primary source (like the Bill of Rights). I don't know if you're a subject matter expert here, I'm not--actually trying to figure this out. Prezbo (talk) 13:39, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
I was able to access the paywalled articles through the Misplaced Pages library, which adds a little more clarity. Prezbo (talk) 10:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

According to this source, a fifth principle was added in 2012: "the objection to recognize the State of Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people". However, I cannot find this in the cited source --Lambiam 13:29, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I checked the Arabic Misplaced Pages article before I responded above, and they list the same four principles. Abductive (reasoning) 13:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

That appears to be a translation of the English article, so this doesn't mean much to me. Prezbo (talk) 13:44, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I've poked around a little, and there doesn't appear to have been any change. Abductive (reasoning) 13:59, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

The list in the book I linked to above is not the same as that in our article. The book does not include a "right to resistance", but demands the release by Israel of all Palestinian prisoners. It would be good to have a sourced, authoritative version, in particular the actual 1977 formulation by the PLO. Of course, nothing is so changeable as political principles, so one should expect non-trivial amendments made in the course of time. --Lambiam 14:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

That book is incorrect. Abductive (reasoning) 21:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

How do you know? --Lambiam 00:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

The text does not explicitly say, "among others", but the use of بها بما في ذلك suggests that this list of four principles is not exhaustive. --Lambiam 00:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

January 7

Is there such a thing as a joke type index?

Has anyone produced an index of joke types and schemata (schemes?) along the lines of the Aarne–Thompson–Uther Index for folk tales? More generally what kind of studies of the structure of jokes and humor are available? Has anyone come up with an A.I. that can generate new jokes? 178.51.8.23 (talk) 18:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

For starters, there's Index of joke types. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

AI generated jokes have been around for years. Just Google for it. They range from weird to meh. Shantavira| 10:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Gershon Legman made an attempt of sorts in his two joke collections, but it was kind of a half-assed approach: there are a bunch of indices printed on pages, but no key tying them together per se. His interest was in the core of the subject of the joke, so he might have said, for example, that these jokes were all based on unresolved Oedipal drives while those jokes were based on hatred of the mother (he was a capital "F" Freudian). The link Bugs shared is more about the formats of the jokes themselves, though some are also differentiated by their subject (albeit in a more superficial way than Legman attempted). Matt Deres (talk) 21:15, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Arthur Koestler has attempted to develop a theory of humour (as well as art and discovery), first in Insight and Outlook (1949) and slightly elaborated further in The Act of Creation (1964). He did, however, not develop a typology of jokes. IMO Victor Raskin's script-based semantic theory of humor presented in Semantic Mechanisms of Humor (1985) is essentially the same as Koestler's, but Raskin does not reference Koestler in the book. For an extensive overview of theories of humour see Contemporary Linguistic Theories of Humour. --Lambiam 00:51, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

January 8

The Nest magazine, UK, 1920s

I have a copy of The Grocer's Window Book. London: The Nest Magazine. 1922., "arranged by The Editor of The Nest". The address of The Nest Magazine is given as 15 Arthur Street, London, EC4. It contains suggestions for arranging window displays in an attractive manner to attract customers into independent grocer's shops. I would be interested to know more about The Nest. I suspect it may have something to do with Nestles Milk, as 1) the back cover is a full-page advertisement for Nestles and Ideal Milk, and there are several other adverts for Nestles products in the book, and 2) one of the suggested window displays involves spelling out "IDEAL" with tins of Ideal Milk. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 02:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Historical U.S. population data by age (year 1968)

In the year 1968, what percentage of the United States population was under 25 years old? I am wondering about this because I am watching the movie Wild in the Streets, and want to know if a percentage claimed in the film was pulled out of a hat or was based in fact. 2601:18A:C500:E830:CE4:140C:29E5:594F (talk) 04:17, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

What percentage did they give? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 05:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

52% (it's on the movie poster). Card Zero (talk) 16:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Tabel No. 6 in the 1971 US Census Report (p. 8) gives, for 1960, 80093 Kpeople age 0–24 on a total population of 180007 Kpeople, corresponding to 44.5%, and, for 1970, 94095 Kpeople age 0–24 on a total population of 204265 Kpeople, corresponding to 46.1%. Interpolation results in an estimate of 45.8% for 1968. --Lambiam 12:36, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Countries with greatest land mass

Can someone please fill in these blanks? Thank you.

1. Currently, the USA ranks as number _____ among countries with the greatest land mass.

2. If the USA were to "annex" or "acquire" both Canada and Greenland, the USA would rank as number _____ among countries with the greatest land mass.

Thanks. 32.209.69.24 (talk) 05:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

See List of countries and dependencies by area, which gives a nuanced answer to your first question, and the answer to your second question is obvious from the data in the article.-Gadfium (talk) 05:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

January 9

Categories: