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==Usability and discoverability==

I would expect the main page of the encyclopedia to prominently feature both a table of contents and a search feature. This page has a lot of trivia, which is a nice secondary function, but no longer seems to serve its primary functions very well. It does have a search feature, but it's a small icon up at the top in a bar of icons, rather than being front and center and already open with a box to type in words (in the style of a search engine, like ).
== Main page redesign ==

:''Link to page under discussion: and ].''

The ] on the ] has completely died after the ]. The RFC has provided many useful ideas, but no one seems interested in continuing the process, and no one is stepping up as a 'manager'. It seems the collaborative model is has also been proven unsuccesfull. I have been working on a basic framework (and design) but I severely lack feedback, especially on the content. This is becoming a bit of a one-man show.

I might just be '''very bold''' and just put the thing up... Then discuss and tweak. This seems to work better then trying to pre-plan everying in advance (just look at Visual Editor). But I would ''really'' like to have some feedback and collaboration. So I'm calling for participants in this process. Without you, the Main Page may suddenly look ''''''. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] (]) — </span> 13:01, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

:I would like to express my interest in this. I have submitted my proposal before and it met with hearty discussion, but as yet, none of the proposals have been implemented. Can you please include the items listed in the below proposal?
:'''A Proposal''' I believe the main page of Misplaced Pages could be make a great deal bolder with a couple of small changes. The top boxes (In the News) and (Today's Featured Article} are not bold enough - the headings should be in BOLD and ALL-CAPS and the typeface should be at least 2 points larger, with the blue news headlines possibly flashing or just scrolling along the top of the page in the manner of a news ticker, also there should be a much larger image on the page, and the font is a bit square, should be replaced for something a bit more fun. I think this would get more people keen to view more parts of the site.
:Thank you, ] (]) 13:23, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
::Flashing and scrolling headlines? You're joking, I take it? This is an encyclopaedia, not a 12 year-olds website.....] (]) 16:20, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
:How about the Commons main page design? It's a refreshment of what we have now, but I probably wouldn't include the lime green here. ] (]) 18:29, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
::That wouldn't be very original, would it? Commons' design is bland at best. We need to be simple yet innovative and elegant. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] (]) — </span> 18:34, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
:::I for one would have no problem with the Main Page Edokter is proposing. I like the fact that it gives more prominence to the encyclopedic aspects of the encyclopedia and our best content, as well as to the nuts and bolts Other areas.
:::One nitpick. As was suggested some time ago, it seems to me more logical to reverse the titles of DYK: have From Misplaced Pages's newest content as the section heading outside the box, and Did you know... inside the box, directly preceding the hooks. (The overall structure of present order, Did you know...From Misplaced Pages's newest content...that the music video bla bla bla is simply incoherent).
:::And er, no flashing, scrolling or the like, please. ] (]) 19:21, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
::::Another vote generally in favor of Edokter's proposal, for the same reasons Awien has given. I would also second Awien's proposal about DYK. Alternatively, the "from Misplaced Pages's newest content" blurb could be moved to the end of the list and rephrased as "...that all of the above were taken from Misplaced Pages's newest content?" Basically working the notice into the format of the section. Additionally, I would place OTD before ITN, it just seems more encyclopedic. Finally, another "no" to any flashing, scrolling, etc. --] (]) 01:53, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
:Note I cannot change anything ''inside'' the boxes at this moment, as that content is transcluded from the respective projects. What I would like the change/replace is the ''Other areas...'' blurb, making it focus more on aspiring editors and pointing them to the appropriate pages. I could definitely use some input there. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] (]) — </span> 09:02, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
::Where exactly should I go to propose my change to DYK? --] (]) 14:17, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
:::]. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] (]) — </span> 14:56, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
:'''Make the pictures bigger than they presently are'''. Presently they are miserable little things; often you can hardly even see what they depict. I would also like to see the "picture of the day" more prominent, if the layout can bear it. ] (]) 11:13, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
:I have an idea. Currently the animated GIF is one of the most popular media formats on the Internet. I believe the front page would be more vibrant if an animated GIF of reasonable size (about 350-400px) was placed in a prominent position. These animations would illustrate some of the key topics of Misplaced Pages, and could possibly accompany the featured article. Also if music was mentioned on the Main Page it would be good if it could play that music when you view the main page. I can see some of your points about how the flashing and scrolling text may be a bit distracting but it would have the benefit of making the main page stand out and the content seem more enticing. ] (]) 17:16, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
:Quite aside from rendering the page unprintable, substantially slowing the download speed, drawing attention away from more significant aspects of the page, and the general dislike many people have of intrusive animated elements, any animated GIF of over five seconds would ]. What sort of a signal would it send out if our most visited page broke our own accessibility policy?&nbsp;]&nbsp;(]) 17:24, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
::That suggestion was obviously a joke. ] (]) 19:05, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
::I've thought this since Horatio Snickers's previous post in this thread. I certainly hope he is joking, as I see no benefit to making Misplaced Pages look like an old Geocities page. --] (]) 19:14, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
:::"Snickers", i.e. "gives a half-suppressed secretive laugh", about says it all. ] (]) 19:39, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
:::: You know, I have never heard that definition before - I had always assumed it related to the ]. It is a family name and it is not meant to display any troublesome intent, and neither do I - I believe in being ] and I can see my suggestions may seem a bit surprising. It is a shame about the policy on five second gifs - I was not previously aware of it. ] (]) 19:59, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
:Let's just put Edokter's version up and work from there, that's probably the best bet at this point. ] (]) 21:11, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
::No. It's a shame that discussion died out, but suddenly introducing a redesigned main page without the consent of the community is not on. It would only result in an almighty drama followed by a return to the status quo in any case. ] (]) 21:43, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
:::Sure there will be dramah. But it's better then nothing happening at all. The process is dead, someone needs to step up and be bold. My feeling about all this: Input is welcome all the time, but don't complain afterward is you didn't have anything to say when you had the chance. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] (]) — </span> 22:15, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
::::It's only better if it's an improvement. Which I'll reserve judgement on, but just point out that it hasn't been discussed or explained. Your design is basically made up of a series of more minor changes. Why not try a new tack and seek consensus for each one in turn. Propose changing the font, moving this, resizing that, each in turn.
::::Oh, and BTW, you've technically lost the ability to cite BOLD for the change by opening a discussion first... ] (]) 22:27, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::Actually, ] recommends this very thing. I am bold in ''not'' seeking consensus (because a !vote is guaranteed to fail), but looking for constructive feedback instead, working that in, and finally go ahead and replace this dinosaur. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] (]) — </span> 20:35, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
::::::] depends on the ability of other editors to revert your work, and as you are an admin editing a protected page, this approach is not possible. I consider "boldly" editing the main page to be the equivalent of editing through protection. <span style="font-variant:small-caps">]</span> (]) 20:53, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::::Were the main page be protected due to an content dispute, you would have a point. But the main page protection is there only because of high visibility, to prevent vandalism. There are also over 1500 admins who can revert any change, so "not possible" does not apply. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] (]) — </span> 21:08, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
::: I like it; it looks fresh. I think you should go ahead. -- ] (]) 22:22, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
::::Why not put up a formal proposal on here that we adopt the new design and then ask for comments on the proposal on the banner on the watchlist page. Then no one can say they didn't have the chance to discuss it. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">]</span> ] 22:44, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
:'''Comment''' - Lots and lots of white space.&nbsp;—&nbsp;] (]) 09:10, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
: I think the thing most lacking is a call to action, inviting readers to become editors. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); ]; ]</span> 13:57, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
::Agreed. I want to replace the 'Other areas...' sections with something like 'Be an editor' wich links to the relevant introducory pages. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] (]) — </span> 20:26, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
:::I have now replaced {{tl|Other areas of Misplaced Pages}} with {{tl|Be an editor}}. The blurb is a draft, so comments/edits welcome. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] (]) — </span> 09:50, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

: I feel that the text "Our goal is to build an encyclopedia that contains information on all branches of human knowledge" could be better honed. Arguably that goal has already been largely achieved. Often now it's more about the quality of information. ] (]) 17:32, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
::Remember the maxim about a camel being a horse designed by a committee? Ever wonder what ] would have looked like designed by a committee? Or whether Picasso's Femme would exist if Picasso had had to work to orders from a committee? Never mind a committee of the whole, which is what we would get here if we were to throw the question open to the community. Just imagine the endless contradictory demands and incoherent design if we tried that! No, what we need is someone with vision looking at the big picture.
::So what I say is, with firm opinions all being positive, and in the absence of any serious objections, put up Edokter's (imo well-thought-out) design, and tweak as necessary. That, after, all is the principle that has got WP to where it is today. Otherwise, the process is interminable, nobody knows what constitutes a consensus anyway . . . and yet again, nothing happens. ] (]) 19:50, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
:::With the greatest respect to those involved, you could scarcely say the new design has anything to do with "vision". It is mostly just a slightly less space-efficient rearrangement of the old design, with some cosmetic tweaks. ] (]) 20:01, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
::::It may look like a cosmetic tweak on the outside, and you are right that the content hasn't changed. But under the hood, the whole code base has been changed to allow a lot of flexibility in terms of content, layout and styling. None of the other proposals/designs have this flexibility. That framework serves as the basis. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] (]) — </span> 20:26, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
::Please suggest a better phrasing. Feedback is a good thing! And don't be afraid to edit it! I will make sure nothing breaks. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] (]) — </span> 20:26, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
I've been here since January 2006, the Main Page has pretty much remained the same since I joined, so I wouldn't mind a little spruce up, and I have no objections to using Edokter's proposal, but I will say is it possible for the DYK and Other areas of Misplaced Pages boxes to be aligned at the bottom, same goes for ITN and OTD? --&nbsp;'''<nowiki>]]]'''&nbsp;<nowiki>]]</nowiki>''' 21:31, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
:Not without some serious CSS hacking, I tried. I used divs to get away from tables. Divs have the annoying property of not allowing its height to be set. But it does add some 'looseness' to the layout, which I think is not a bad thing. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] (]) — </span> 21:37, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

I think it looks awesome and I would '''support''' a bold replacement of the Main Page. However, as a future change, I also would like to see the "Other Areas" space turned into some sort of "Become and Editor" section, I think that's a great idea. --]]<sub>(])</sub> 03:02, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
::I too support this refreshing change but would like to suggest some minor rearrangement of the boxes. For me, "In the news" is more 'encyclopaedic' than "Other areas of Misplaced Pages". I would swap these two over, bringing "Other areas..." lower down the page. I would then push "Other areas..." to the right, bringing "On this day..." to the left. Finally, I would move Today's featured picture" (always nice eye-candy) above "On this day..." and "Other areas...". As "Other areas..." is more about the maintenance of the project, rather than part of the encyclopaeic content, I feel it may be better situated nearer "Misplaced Pages's sister projects" and "Misplaced Pages languages", near the foot of the page. Would love to display graphically what I mean but do not have the technical knowhow or time - sorry. Also agree with Crisco that there's a bit more whitespace than perhaps is necessary. There was something else but I can't remember what it was... ] ] 08:09, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
:While I slightly prefer the finessing of the slightly rounded corners and shadows and stuff of , I really don't see any advantage in the rearrangements of the panels and other layout changes. In fact, in some cases I think the changes are detrimental. Perhaps the new "finishing touches" should just be applied to the existing layout? ] (]) 19:57, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

'''Comment.''' Everything else is fine except I don't fancy the arrangement of the sections. "''In the news''" and "''On this day...''" are too far down, they should be right below TFA. "''Other areas of Misplaced Pages''" should be at the bottom right above "''Misplaced Pages's sister projects''", like the way it was. ] (]) 21:11, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Some thoughts:
* Why is the discussion taking place here? Why do we have to start with one editor's "single" proposal? (personally I don't like it.)
* More importantly, why is redesigning always about rearranging elements? Why can we try something totally new? (I don't understand for example why we must keep "Welcome to Misplaced Pages"; that's so 90s.)
* My personal proposal (which I suggested numerous times before) is to make the main page more like a newspaper without focusing on news: we need to have sections on politics, math, science, arts, sports, etc. Just like newspaper site, we can let a relevant Misplaced Pages project to manage a section; Misplaced Pages project math can decide what to put on the math section; maybe newly improved article.
-- ] (]) 11:38, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

===Done so far===
* Replaced 'Other areas...' with 'Be and editor'.
* Moved POTD up; Will move down on mondays to make space for TFL.
<span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] (]) — </span> 19:18, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

===Suggested changes in content===
* I put up a draft blurb for 'Be an editor' (replacing 'Other areas...'). Any comments on wording welcome. This also goes for the blurb in the banner (Welcome to Misplaced Pages). <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] (]) — </span> 19:18, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand what this is about ] (]) 03:40, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

===Suggested changes in layout===
* I would miss "In the News" appearing at the top without scrolling so much that I am opposed to the redesign as it currently stands. I think the community does a pretty good job of news curation. ] (]) 20:58, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
** I will add my voice to the number of people who would like to see ITN remain towards the top as well. While I approve of the redesign in general, having the news so far down seems unfortunate. --] (]) 09:36, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
***I concur with EllenCT and Nizolan as well. ''']'''<sup>]]</sup> 07:33, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
* Could we swap the DYK section on the design with the OTD section? I think that the OTD section will be able to make a much better use of that slot, and serve to promote the most relevant articles for the day to the reader, save the OTD section. ] (]) 01:15, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
**Done. It does imbalance the OTD/BAE row a bit, but that can be fixed. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] (]) — </span> 19:10, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
***Hm, I'd actually disagree. I think DYK should be above the fold. DYK is usually more interesting and has better articles compared to OTD. ] (]) 19:52, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
****I tend to agree here. DYK also fits better next to BAE. Swapping it back. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] (]) — </span> 21:00, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
*****I'd also support DYK being in the second row rather than the third, as it features articles that editors have actively worked on recently, while OTD tends to cycle through articles that have not recently been improved. A big part of DYK is that editors can have their hard work rewarded by getting on the Main Page even in a small way, and putting DYK under the fold lessens that. ] (<sup>]</sup>⁄<sub>]</sub>) 07:48, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
*There seems to be a lot of space devoted to the featured picture description. I don't think so much will generally be needed. Only the first couple of lines of long descriptions are really needed on the main page, I think. I would roughly half the width of the featured pic box, float it right, and move "in the news" up to the left of it. Not sure what to replace the current "in the news" space with, but for the time being you could stretch "on this day" to 100% width. <font style="font:Futura;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #999">] <span style="font-size:75%">]</small> 22:14, 21 Sep 2013 (UTC)</font>
**The problem is that POTD will sometime feature a 'panoramic' image, taking the full width of the page, with the image on top and the description below. If that happens and and it only has half the space available, it may push the rest off the screen. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] (]) — </span> 09:56, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
*I am liking the look of the new layout, although I believe the featured picture should be pushed to the bottom, with ''In the news'' and ''On this day'' above it. Commons is more the place for photos, whereas the news, on this day, and DYK are all things on the Main Page which are all regularly updated, interesting, and encyclopaedic information, which is exactly what we'd want to be prominent on the homepage. ''']'''<sup>]</sup> 05:38, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
*When the Main Page ] randomly rotating accompanying images to the featured article, that gave me an idea. Why should Today's Featured List/Picture always be below (and less visible than) TFA? Could the Main Page have the three current slots for TFA, TFL and POTD become randomised, such that the '''position''' of those three items on the Main Page becomes randomised? This would IMO give TFL and POTD more prominence. ''']''' <sup>'''] / ]</sup>''' 10:58, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

===Suggested changes in design===
*It seems the pastel colors meet with some opposition. Please suggest alternatives here. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] (]) — </span> 12:41, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

*The proposed design is an improvement, but not by much. It still looks dated. I feel last year's redesign contest had some revolutionary ideas, and I'm intrigued that ] was basically able to steal them and streamline them into a nice, modern front page. I feel we should steal that layout back. -- ''']''' 02:55, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
**It may work for the Chinese, but it would be way too minimal for here. I also aim for ''some'' originality. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] (]) — </span> 19:12, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
***Huh? But it's quite obviously based off two of the most popular designs from last year's Main Page redesign attempt (] and ]). Perhaps it is minimalist (and I think the Chinese minimalized it even more), but that appears to be something a good number of people like. I don't understand the attachment to the pastel colors and the restricting borders; are websites made that way anymore? -- ''']''' 20:49, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
****It is based on Pretzel's design, but virtually all origonal styling has been stripped to a few grey lines. I'm not attached to the pastel colors, but no one has yet put up an alternative, so by all means, suggest a different box style. The beauty of my framework is that it is now possible to do so without affecting layout and content. Not sure what to make of "restrictive" borders; they are always there, visible or not. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] (]) — </span> 09:50, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

===General Comments/Informal Votes===
:''NOTE: This should not be considered a vote on the current design, but for opining on the framework.''
* An enthusiastic '''Support''' for the design as proposed by Edokter. The new format looks well-thought out and chic enough to not be too 2000s. I suppose it's possible to iron out any minor issues, but I agree in principle with this new design. ] (]) 01:15, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
* '''Support''' the proposed design; it's a step in the right direction, an upgrade that can be readily adapted to changing needs. -- ] (]) 18:21, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''' the layout changes (don't see any purpose to them; if there is, could it be explained here?). <s>'''Support''' the cosmetic changes such as slightly rounded corners and shadows.</s> Sorry, I am changing my opinion after seeing other suggestions linked below, which I was not previously aware of (] and ]), which have greater potential IMO. Also, can someone add a more prominent link to what we're voting on and make sure it does not change while voting is in progress? (Alternative versions can be separately linked, so long as it is clear which version people's votes apply to.) ] (]) 19:29, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
**Link added to the top. Currently there is only one version and it is constantly changing according to comments. This is not a formal vote, just collecting some opinions. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] (]) — </span> 19:46, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
:::I disagree with having any sort of vote on something that is constantly changing. How can you possibly tally the votes if people are voting for different things? And if you are not intending to tally votes then it should not be a vote. ] (]) 21:00, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
::::This !vote section wasn't my idea. I think gathering suggestions and working on a live version is the better method. But as Nick pointed out below, it is more the ''concept'' that is being opined. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] (]) — </span> 21:16, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
:::::I feel the purpose of the "vote" should be more clearly explained at the top of the section then. For example, the comment below seems to be supporting invisible "behind-the-scenes" changes more than any specific implementation. Most ordinary punters will presumably be voting on exactly what they see at the linked page. If that changes significantly then the tally of votes just becomes meaningless. ] (]) 22:02, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
*'''Strong support''' The fundamental proposal is this: abandoning the rigid structure enforced by tables, and moving to this more flexible framework. This can be used to render the Main Page in exactly the same manner it is now. As I write this, I think that perhaps it should. When it is accepted and editors play with the framework, then we can play with layout and content. --]]<sub>(])</sub> 20:35, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Comes across as a small improvement, still quite dated. I would prefer jettisoning the pastel colors and restrictive borders, as in ] or ] from last year's redesign competition or ]. -- ''']''' 20:54, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
**Pretzel's design is IMO the only viable option from last year's efforts. Technically, it fits very well in the framework (but has a rigid two-column structure). It could be a bit more daring in its use of colors. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] (]) — </span> 21:25, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' due to suppression of "In the News" which I usually appreciate more than TFA. ] (]) 21:03, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. Decision to place DYK next to static "Be an Editor" section either places a new and arbitrary requirement that DYK utilize the same amount of vertical space as this new section or will result in the introduction of a wasteful and ugly block of whitespace. Similar situation with ITN and SA/OTD section shows design has not considered the needs and normal operational patterns of these sections or an awareness of how balancing the the sizes of Main page sections is traditionally performed. --'']''&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 22:14, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - A terrible idea. This is change for the sake of change. Main page is fine just like it is. ]]] 05:28, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per Nickpenguin. I would suggest putting an opt-in link for the Visual Editor in a prominent place near the top.—] <small>]/]</small> 20:21, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Win7, 1280x800, FF24 (with proper menus, address bars, tabs, title bar, aka not awful unusable Chrome look) the only thing visible without scrolling is the gigantic static banner and TFA. DYK requires scrolling, ITN and OTD require significant scrolling. If there is a great american Wikinick or some pledge drive running, that banner will push the dynamic content down even further! Rounded corners do not render in older versions of IE. Current Main Page on the same setup has TFA, ITN, OTD and DYK all fully or partially visible without scrolling. In fact, isn't Misplaced Pages well known enough that the huge banner with the 9 portal links and string "the 💕 that anyone can edit." totally unnecessary? IMO ditch that banner all together, put the portal links and article count, and "be an editor" in the sidebar. All static content in the sidebar, all dynamic content in the main frame. --] (]) 17:17, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. I can't see any rhyme or reason to the layout changes. I don't think many people would say that TFA is currently not dominant enough, that ITN and OTD need to be shoved as far out of view as possible, or that the "Welcome to Misplaced Pages" box needs to be made bigger. I quite like the headers with the serif font, so I would probably support that change if it was proposed as a standalone. ] (]) 21:02, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
*'''Support''' at least the move away from the adjoining, clunky, tabular design that the Main Page currently has. I'm not too fussed about any particular order or placement of content but Edokter's proposed page is far more pleasing on the eye. <b><font color="teal">]</font></b>''<sup><font color="teal">]</font></sup>'' <sup><b><font color="teal">]</font></b></sup> 08:33, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
* The current main page was put in place by a consensus of the Misplaced Pages community, in which the discussion was widely announced throughout the Misplaced Pages namespace, and for which around a thousand editors turned out to voice their support/opposition/comments. You can't trump that with a minor discussion amongst a few editors. A major overhaul of the main page, without bringing it to the whole community to reach a new consensus, would shock a lot of editors. It would certainly result in the page's speedy reversion followed by much drama. However, the current main page is subject to evolution, in which individual changes are discussed, adopted, and then implemented from this talk page one-change-at-a-time. Like the way ''Today's Featured List'' was added (appears Mondays). ] 07:21, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
* '''Support''' the layout change. ] (]) 01:50, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
* '''Oppose'''. The layout is essentially very similar to the current one, and the design is just terrible with all those rounded corners and fake shadows. I think if something need to change from the current layout is the size of images, which should be bigger. --] (]) 13:16, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
* '''Support''' - new layout/design seems much more inviting ''']'''<sup>]</sup> 13:19, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
* '''Support''' for the framework, and for iterating on a design. I like Edokter's layout, a nicely cleaned-up version of what we have now. I '''love''' ] from last year, and would enjoy seeing variations on those two designs, to choose among?
*: Tariq makes a good point that the Chinese main page does an excellent job of limiting whitespace and reducing the total # of borders while maintaining a clean, elegant look... we can learn from that in updating those two designs.
*: Support for having a small 'Be an editor' section. <span style="color:#666">&ndash;&nbsp;]]</span> 05:44, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
* '''Support''' . A step in the right direction without being too radical change. It keeps the steady reliable brand feel of Misplaced Pages with just a little freshness. I believe people want and are reassured by , continuity and reliability in an encyclopedia, not a fashionable design which changes with the wind. ] (]) 11:11, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''' the rearrangement of material, which doesn't seem to have much logic behind it and puts everything except TFA ]. '''Neutral''' on the graphical tweaks, which look fine but don't seem any better or worse than what we have currently. Lose the serif font for titles though - that's not what it's designed for. '''Strong oppose''' the very concept of a 'be an editor' box. We shouldn't put that sort of material on the Main Page - it's supposed to be a resource of use to readers, not a recruitment advert. ] ] 17:45, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
** The last RFC has established that editor engagement is one of the primary objectives for the main page. Only catering to readers is not a consideration. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] (]) — </span> 08:57, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
*'''Supportive''' I'm positive towards this. Not quite there, but very good so far. Keep it up! --] (]) 10:59, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per Formerip. I don't like having just one section (TFA) at the top of the page - fewer people will look at the others. ] (]) 20:28, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' The general layout is haphazard looking. I don't like the way that the gaps between the sections look, and I don't like that I have to scroll down even further to get to the picture of the day. It's already below the fold on my 1600x900 screen, but it's even further down in this proposal. ] ] 23:55, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

===How would YOU organize a redesign?===
I feel that any recent attempts to organize the redesign of the main page is doomed to fail; the community has simply gotten too big to gain some form of consensus. How would you go about organizing a process that resulted in a new main page?
* For me, I think a small committee comprised of a selection of trusted community members with the relevant design and technical skills should be elected. That group can design the main page without haveing every step under scrutiny. There will be several community consultations before presenting the end result. That result will be put up for consideration, with the condition that any opposing voice must be ''well'' motivated, to prevent weeks or months of hard work to be for nothing, simply because of "I don't like it" comments. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] (]) — </span> 11:56, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
**'''Support''' <span class="nowrap">&mdash; (っ◔◡◔)っ<sup>''']'''</sup></span> 23:58, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
* Well, when you're talking about design, "I don't like it" is really pretty valid. If you're looking for a process that will guarantee a front-page redesign regardless of whether the community wants it or likes it, I don't think you're going to get your wish. As I suggested above, it might be more realistic to propose incremental changes. Perhaps a competition could also work, although someone would need to be willing to put in a lot of effort to organise it. ] (]) 13:56, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
** Looking at the past two years, competition or otherwise, no process based on consensus is ever going to change the main page. That has become very apparent. Incremental changes might work, but people will still complain. What works best is what worked for the Vector skin; just put it up, hear the roar and let it die out, and go on with our lives. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] (]) — </span> 19:08, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
***I think you should give up all hope that no-one will ever complain. If you agree that incremental changes ''could'' work, then surely you have identified your best option? I would make each proposal as tiny as it possibly can be. So, with the headers, I would propose removing the boxes, then I would propose switching the font, then I would propose changing the font size. That way you have simple yes/no questions. By presenting a re-design in one go, you are giving people a hundred things to say no to, which is the root of your problem. ] (]) 23:44, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
****I agree that incremental change might be the best option. Implement the current design in proper css and get that fully debugged first, then replace the {{tl|Other areas of Misplaced Pages}} with the {{tl|Be an editor}} (once a more final content selection has been debated), then update the header bar. Defer any re-arrangements, or re-colourings, or font changes till the end (in the hopes that the ] efforts towards researching and then proposing a change to the font stack moves forward, and because aesthetics and ordering are the 2 most subjective/contentious/divisive issues...); then once all the ''content and architecture'' changes are working, begin the process of iterating on alternate designs. –] (]) 05:43, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
*I suppose the first step should be to define what the redesign is intended to achieve. Or has that already been done? ] (]) 21:10, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
**Sort of, see ]. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] (]) — </span> 22:17, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

===Featured pix===
A belated comment on the above (partly joshing) discussion of featured-picture size: Today's photo of Abbotsbury (]), however picturesque (it looks like a backdrop for ]), is a case in point. Even at full resolution it's impossible to make out much of the distant detail. Seems to me featured pics should be limited to subjects that can fit with decent resolution into the space available. ] (]) 21:17, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
*FPs are already considerably larger than they were this time last year (50 to 60 percent, I believe). In the case of Abbotsbury, I could have gone with a scrolling bar allowing greater zoom levels. Maybe I will next time there is a panorama.&nbsp;—&nbsp;] (]) 00:25, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

== Categorization ==

As with all other pages on Misplaced Pages, the man page should be categorized. As this is formatted as a portal, it should be categorized into ]

-- ] (]) 02:09, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
:AFAIK, all categories on the Main Page are usually ]. There has been several discussions on this issue of categorizing (such as ] and ]), but current consensus is to leave the Main Page as "]". Basically, the two objections of having a category on the Main Page was that it spoils its appearance, and that no one needs help finding it because it is linked from every page via the left sidebar menu. ] (]) 02:24, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

::"''the ]''"? ] ]. ] (]) 13:47, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
:::See for categorising the main page, and for tagging it as an uncategorised article; it was done completely without discussion! After finding them, I now see that Zzyzx11's links mention them. ] (]) 01:25, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

== Who decides what's on OTD? ==

Some odd choices of topics in OTD recently (and not so recently), for instance today, is a single murder (]) really noteworthy enough to put on OTD? I think not. Many better options for today. So what exactly is the process of deciding what goes on OTD? ] (]) 08:27, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
:It's all explained at ] ] (]) 20:18, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
::Several days late, but the Hattori shooting was a big international kerfluffle at the time. <span style="font-family:Verdana; ">—''']''' <small>{]}</small></span> 16:12, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

== 19th October TFA choice ==

{{moved from|WP:ERRORS|2=]] 23:48, 19 October 2013 (UTC)}}
Another article about cricket? Pathetic. Who decides what articles to feature? And are they all obsessed with cricket? Pathetic! ] (]) 23:03, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
:Hello, Autodidact. As it says at the top of ], the place to nominate or discuss nominations for the TFA slot is ]. In default of nominations for a particular date, I make the decision, so the more nominations the better - at present, the community on average only nominates three articles per week so I'm choosing the remaining four and trying to achieve the impossible of keeping everyone happy.<p>I don't know whether your complaint is that there's too much sport chosen as TFA, or simply that too much of the sport chosen for TFA is cricket. If it's the first, 10.9% of ] are sports articles (147 out of 1,349), which means that if each broad type of FA category was selected in strict proportion to its size, there'd be between 3 and 4 sports articles every month. In fact, today is only the 22nd day this year on which there's been a TFA from sports and recreation, so not much more than 2 per month. So if anything sport is ''underepresented'' in the TFA slot (compared to, say, historical/political articles or literature articles, ]).<P>If it's the latter complaint, please bear in mind that ], so they will inevitably appear more often than, say, American football biographies (only 2 left) or basketball (only 2 left). As for today's TFA, I chose ] because it was the 140th anniversary of his birth and he is that rarity, a leading American in a game that is not traditionally associated with American achievement. I'm sorry you didn't find it interesting, but hope to see you contribute at WP:TFAR in future, or bringing an article to FA standard yourself to help widen the choices for TFA. ]] 23:35, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
::Also, insulting editors contributions and hard work with "Pathetic!" doesn't seem to be conducive to improving the project. Perhaps a little civility and personal involvement would make a bigger difference. <b>]]]</b> 06:17, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

The Today's Featured article should be chosen based on the date of the day. For example, historical events, anniversary celebrations etc. You should not keep selecting the TFA from the similar categories or else people may feel bored reading it.] (]) 08:17, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
*If you think so, please feel free to find anniversaries and nominate them at ].&nbsp;—&nbsp;] (]) 08:20, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
*#Please be sure to tell me, {{u|Newestcastleman}}, when you find anniversaries for articles such as our many FAs on dinosaurs, birds, fungi, food and drink, people from the Middle Ages or earlier where we have no dates of birth or death, early literature or music without a date of publication, constellations and stars etc... Your "date of the day" approach is far too simplistic and would make TFA an offshoot of OTD, as not only would it exclude many articles without a date link but also doesn't help when there is no article with a link to a particular day. What do we do then - not have a TFA? Or re-run the same articles every year?
*# Please tell me the categories from ] from which I ''haven't'' been selecting enough articles. I'd love to know... Tell you what, check out ] and tell me. ]] 08:35, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Maybe you can use some articles related to food and drinks as you have not been using it for the year such as those food and drink companies. I suggest that tomorrow (October 22), ] can be used as the featured article since it is the 5th anniversary of the lauch of this unmanned nuclear mission in ].] (]) 08:55, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
:The only FA-class food and drink article not to have been on the main page is ], which was promoted less than a week ago. But it seems that you don't understand the term "Today's ]". When it becomes "Today's B-class article", then I'll use ]. ]] 09:00, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Sometimes, it is not always that you follow the date, you can simply randomly select the featured article, such as those related to things or events that interest people.] (]) 08:56, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
:Like I do already, then. Glad we've cleared that up... ]] 09:00, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

== Smallpox featured picture for Saturday ==


It's a bit weird we visibly link to ], but the only link to ] (which is important enough it's linked to from every page on the site) is hidden behind the pancake menu icon in the upper left. We do have templates like ] that could be used directly on this page as a better gateway to actual articles, for those that are curious but don't have any particular query in mind or are looking for inspiration. ] (]) 20:26, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
The smallpox image (which will run on Saturday) '''will''' cause a significant amount of negative commentary. In generally, Misplaced Pages tends to keep certain content off of the main page because while it's not (and shouldn't be) policy, we do follow the principle of least astonishment. I'm just going to be direct here and say that running this image on the main page is a bad idea. It was significantly discomforting for me to look at, and I figure that I've got a higher tolerance than many. This image has a place on the project, but I don't think that it has a place on the main page.


:Agree about the trivia, but remember opinions here come from the trivia writers. Last time I looked at portal usage statistics, it looks like a few people click to see what they are, and most of them don't click anything further. ] (]) 03:55, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
I fully expect to be roughed up at least a little for saying this, so all I ask is that you be civil. ] ] 01:54, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
:It's a little graphic, yes, but that also makes in poignant in some convoluted way of human psyche. Controversy sells.<span style="text-shadow:0em 0em 1em #003399;">]</span><span style="text-shadow:0em 0em 1em #FF8C00;">]</span> 04:31, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
:Note that featuring this image was discussed at ], with ]. That proposal followed a discussion at ]. - ]] 04:54, 23 October 2013 (UTC)


:This appears to be an objection to the ], not the contents of ] itself. The default skins on desktop and mobile both have a large search box or icon right at the top of every page. The desktop skin also has a link to ] in the menu shown on every single page. If you don't like the way that requires opening the menu before that link is visible, I suggest you bring it up on an appropriate talk page for the skin (perhaps ]) or at the ]. ] ] 14:09, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
*Graphic it very much is. I personally will refrain from scrolling down to that section on Saturday. But we do have many such "too-graphic" ] which at a certain time have to come out. Although to debut from the list a lesser controversial one could be used, like maybe the lynching one, but lets go with a bang is also fine. We should definitely try it out. People have criticized for being too birdy and cute and hence lets try this. §§]§§ {]/]} 06:27, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
::Yes, I'm objecting to the fact that the primary functions of the main page are hidden in a menu and in an icon rather than being directly on - if not the most prominent things on - the page.
:*Less controversial is... quite subjective, to say the least. Having graphic images on the MP is not new. ] ran with a very poignant image of the young man's charred corpse last year. POTD has, until now, not partaken, but the both discussions clearly showed a consensus for running the image.&nbsp;—&nbsp;] (]) 08:13, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
::Wouldn't changing the skin change ''all'' pages? That seems like the wrong answer, since it wouldn't make sense to put the Contents listing on every page, nor would it make sense to have an open search bar on every page. Unlike the main page, I would expect the primary means of navigation to be clicking on links to related articles, as opposed to browsing through topics. (Search is sort of intermediate on those pages, so an icon seems like a good compromise.) -- ] (]) 21:52, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
::@Sven: As indicated above, I did not choose this image willy-nilly. There was discussion, and a clear consensus. That this may cause discomfort in some does not make the image any less encyclopedic or valuable to the encyclopedia.&nbsp;—&nbsp;] (]) 08:18, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
::I see no reason why we can't have in the top box "Welcome to Misplaced Pages" a visually predominant search bar. Doesn't touch the skin. ] (]) 22:31, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
:::Misplaced Pages is an academic resource. The image is an unbiased, uncensored look at the effects of smallpox. Sure, it might look a bit 'icky', but are we really going to start applying ] to featured images too?
:::While it is regrettable that this may cause some people personal discomfort, it's a very-real consequence of a very-real disease and gives significant weight. I, for one, think an image with such educational potential should be hidden because someone might find it gross. ] 15:54, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
:::Let me say, I have seen several far more disturbing medical images than the smallpox one (which is visually just a bunch of bumps on the skin). ] (]) 16:52, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

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I would expect the main page of the encyclopedia to prominently feature both a table of contents and a search feature. This page has a lot of trivia, which is a nice secondary function, but no longer seems to serve its primary functions very well. It does have a search feature, but it's a small icon up at the top in a bar of icons, rather than being front and center and already open with a box to type in words (in the style of a search engine, like ).

It's a bit weird we visibly link to Misplaced Pages:Contents/Portals, but the only link to Misplaced Pages:Contents (which is important enough it's linked to from every page on the site) is hidden behind the pancake menu icon in the upper left. We do have templates like Misplaced Pages:Contents/TOC navbar that could be used directly on this page as a better gateway to actual articles, for those that are curious but don't have any particular query in mind or are looking for inspiration. Beland (talk) 20:26, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Agree about the trivia, but remember opinions here come from the trivia writers. Last time I looked at portal usage statistics, it looks like a few people click to see what they are, and most of them don't click anything further. Art LaPella (talk) 03:55, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
This appears to be an objection to the WP:SKIN, not the contents of Main Page itself. The default skins on desktop and mobile both have a large search box or icon right at the top of every page. The desktop skin also has a link to Misplaced Pages:Contents in the menu shown on every single page. If you don't like the way that requires opening the menu before that link is visible, I suggest you bring it up on an appropriate talk page for the skin (perhaps Misplaced Pages talk:Vector 2022) or at the village pump. Modest Genius 14:09, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
Yes, I'm objecting to the fact that the primary functions of the main page are hidden in a menu and in an icon rather than being directly on - if not the most prominent things on - the page.
Wouldn't changing the skin change all pages? That seems like the wrong answer, since it wouldn't make sense to put the Contents listing on every page, nor would it make sense to have an open search bar on every page. Unlike the main page, I would expect the primary means of navigation to be clicking on links to related articles, as opposed to browsing through topics. (Search is sort of intermediate on those pages, so an icon seems like a good compromise.) -- Beland (talk) 21:52, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
I see no reason why we can't have in the top box "Welcome to Misplaced Pages" a visually predominant search bar. Doesn't touch the skin. Masem (t) 22:31, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
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