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= February 4 = = December 28 =


== Truncated Indian map in Misplaced Pages ==
== Nellie McClung ==


Why is the map of India always appears truncated in all of Misplaced Pages pages, when there is no official annexing of Indian territories in Kashmir, by Pakistan and China nor its confirmation from Indian govt ? With Pakistan and China just claiming the territory, why the world map shows it as annexed by them, separating from India ? ] (]) 15:05, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
My husband is a great nephew of Nellie McClung and is very familiar with her life and works. In your article you list a 17th book attributed to her "The Morning After Dawn" (1950). We own the complete collection of her books (16) and a list of all the articles written by her, many of which are housed in the Sipiweske Museum at Wawanesa, Manitoba, where she grew up and went to school. We have been unable to find any mention of the book listed in the article, nor does it appear that she wrote an article or essay under this name. Also, have researched it in Victoria, B.C. where she resided prior to her death and there is no mention of this book. We are wondering what the source of this information is and, frankly doubt that a book or article under this name was written by her. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 01:09, 4 February 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


:The map at ] shows Kashmir in light green, meaning "claimed but not controlled". It's not truncated, it's ''differently included.'' ]&nbsp;] 17:17, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
:I wouldn't dismiss the publication and the authorship of the book right away. It could perfectly be an anthology of her previous work, in the same venue as Baraka (]) and not an original work. The number of books would remain then 16, consistent with your information. ] (]) 01:44, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
:Please see no 6 in ] ] (]) 20:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)


= December 29 =
:Appointed discussion area is ]... -- ] (]) 01:54, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
:Looking at second-hand book websites brings up no mention of this title, so I would be tempted to delete it. If anyone else comes up with a reference, they can always restore it. --] 09:01, 4 February 2014 (UTC)


== Set animal's name = sha? ==
:The two bibliographies I found, while they disagree with each other (added to the article), don't list ''The Morning After Dawn'' either, nor was I able to find anything other than Misplaced Pages mirrors, so I took it out. ] (]) 11:44, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
:Added a third bibliography source. ] (]) 12:00, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
::For what it's worth, the user who added that title to the bibliography made another on the same day. --] (]) 16:32, 4 February 2014 (UTC)


"In ancient Egyptian art, the Set animal, or sha," - this seems like a major citation needed. Any help?
== article help ==
] (]) 00:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
:Which article does that appear in? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 01:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
::It must be ] article. ] (]) 04:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
:::That term was in the original version of the article, written 15 years ago by an editor named "P Aculeius" who is still active. Maybe the OP could ask that user about it? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 05:00, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
:*{{tq|Each time, the word ''šꜣ'' is written over the Seth-animal.}}<sup></sup>
:*{{tq|Sometimes the animal is designated as sha (''šꜣ'') , but we are not certain at all whether this designation was its name.}}<sup></sup>
:*{{tq|When referring to the ancient Egyptian terminology, the so-called sha-animal, as depicted and mentioned in the Middle Kingdom tombs of Beni Hasan, together with other fantastic creatures of the desert and including the griffin, closely resembles the Seth animal.}}<sup></sup>
:*{{tq|''šꜣ'' ‘Seth-animal’}}<sup></sup>
:*{{tq|He claims that the domestic pig is called “sha,” the name of the Set-animal.}}<sup></sup>
:Wiktionary gives '']'' as meaning "<u>wild</u> pig", not mentioning use in connection with depictions of the Seth-animal. The hieroglyphs shown for ''šꜣ'' do not resemble those in the article ], which instead are listed as ideograms in (or for) '']'', the proper noun ''Seth''. &nbsp;--] 08:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
::Thank you! The reason I brought it up was because the hieroglyph for the set animal didn't have the sound value to match in jsesh.
::] (]) 22:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
{{Hiero|The word ''sha'' (accompanying<br>depictions of the Set animal)|<hiero>SA-A-E12.E12</hiero>|align=right|era=egypt}}
:::IMO they should be removed, or, if this can be sourced, be replaced by one or more of the following two: &nbsp;--] 09:49, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
{{clear}}
{{multiple image
| width = 125
| image1 = Sha (animal).jpg
| alt1 =
| image2 = Set animal.svg
| alt2 =
| footer = Budge's original drawing and second version of PharaohCrab's drawing; the original looked very different, and this one is clearly based on Budge's as traced by me in 2009, but without attribution.
}}
:The article—originally "Sha (animal)" was one of the first I wrote, or attempted to write, and was based on and built on the identification by ], in , which uses the hieroglyph <hiero>M8</hiero> for the word "sha", and includes the illustration that I traced from a scan and uploaded to Commons (and which was included in the article from the time of its creation in 2009 until December 21, 2024 when ] replaced it with his original version of the one shown above; see its history for what it looked like until yesterday). I have had very little to do with the article since ] made substantial changes and moved it to "Seth animal" in 2010; although it's stayed on my watchlist, I long since stopped trying to interfere with it, as it seemed to me that other editors were determined to change it to the way they thought it should be, and I wasn't sophisticated enough to intervene or advocate effectively for my opinions. In fact the only edit by me I can see after that was fixing a typo.


:As for the word ''sha'', that is what Budge called it, based on the hieroglyph associated with it; I was writing about this specific creature, which according to Budge and some of the other sources quoted above has some degree of independence from Set, as it sometimes appears without him and is used as the determinative of one or two other deities, whose totemic animal it might also have been. One of the other scholars quoted above questions whether the word ''sha'' is the name of the animal, but still associates the word with the animal: Herman Te Velde's article, "Egyptian Hieroglyphs as Signs Symbols and Gods", quoted above, uses slightly modified versions of Budge's illustrations; his book ''Seth, God of Confusion'' is also quoted above, both with the transliteration ''šꜣ'', which in "Egyptian Hieroglyphs" he also renders ''sha''. ] is the source cited by the ] quotation above, claiming that ''sha'' referred to a domestic pig as well as the Set animal, and a different god distinct from Set, though sharing the same attributes (claims of which Thompson seems skeptical). Herman Te Velde also cites Newberry, though he offers a different explanation for the meaning of "sha" as "destiny". ''All Things Ancient Egypt'', also quoted above, calls the animal "the so-called ''sha''-animal", while ''Classification from Antiquity to Modern Times'' just uses ''šꜣ'' and "Seth-animal".
What factors caused Las Casas to renounce his holdings and devote his life to defending the interests of Spain's Native American subjects? <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 17:52, 4 February 2014 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


:I'm not certain what the question here is; that the hieroglyph transliterated ''sha'' is somehow associated with the creature seems to have a clear scholarly consensus; most of the scholars use it as the name of the creature; Herman Te Velde is the only one who suggests that it ''might'' not be its name, though he doesn't conclude whether it is or isn't; and one general source says in passing "so-called ''sha''-animal", which accepts that this is what it's typically referred to in scholarship, without endorsing it. Although Newberry made the connection with pigs, none of the sources seems to write the name with pig hieroglyphs as depicted above. Could you be clearer about what it is that's being discussed here? ] (]) 16:47, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
:According to this article, ] it was while reading the ]. I assume you are looking for something more than that? ] (]) 18:11, 4 February 2014 (UTC)


:]
== ] ==
:I asked because I couldn't find it in Gardiner (jsesh, no match when searching by sound value) or Budge (dictionary vol II.)
:] (]) 05:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)


= December 30 =
Hi, the man is deceased but I'm not sure how to confirm his actual middle name. It could be William or Wellington, I see both used and reported but it would be nice to confirm it and add the reference(s). Any ideas? ] (]) 22:50, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
:Ancestry.com has 'Wellington' for his middle name, sourced to 'California, Death Index, 1940-1997': but I don't have subscription to verify. ~:] (]) 23:12, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
::I do, and it does indeed say "Wellington". ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 23:25, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
:::Thank you! I'll add the reference now. ] (]) 00:56, 5 February 2014 (UTC)


== I do not say the Frenchman will not come. I only say he will not come by sea. ==
== Name of a painting (and artist) ==


1. What is the ultimate source of this famous 1803 quote by John Jervis (1735 – 1823), 1st Earl of St Vincent, First Lord of the Admiralty at the time. I googled Books and no source is ever given except possibly another collection of quotations. The closest I got was: "At a parley in London while First Lord of the Admiralty 1803". That's just not good enough. Surely there must be someone who put this anecdote in writing for the first time.
Does anyone know the name of the painting (and of the artist who painted it) displayed from 01:00 onwards in . Thanks! ] (]) 23:29, 4 February 2014 (UTC)


2. Wouldn't you say this use of the simple present in English is not longer current in contemporary English, and that the modern equivalent would use present continuous forms "I'm not saying... I'm only saying..." (unless Lord Jervis meant to say he was in the habit of saying this; incidentally I do realize this should go to the Language Desk but I hope it's ok just this once)
:I believe it is '']'' by ] - (see ) - <span style="font-family: cursive">]</span> 23:50, 4 February 2014 (UTC)


] (]) 11:47, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
= February 5 =
:Assuming he's talking about England, does he propose building a bridge over the Channel? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 12:13, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
::How about a ]? --] (]) 12:29, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
:::It's a joke. He's saying that the French won't invade under any circumstances (see ]). ] (]) 20:30, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
:::The First Lord of the Admiralty wouldn't be the one stopping them if the French came by tunnel (proposed in 1802) or air (the French did have hot air balloons). Any decent military officer would understand that an invasion by tunnel or balloon would have no chance of success, but this fear caused some English opposition against the Channel Tunnel for the next 150 years. Just hinting at the possibility of invasion by tunnel amongst military officers would be considered a joke.
:::Unless he was insulting the British Army (no, now I'm joking). ] (]) 10:30, 31 December 2024 (UTC)


:The quoted wording varies somewhat. Our article ] has it as "I do not say, my Lords, that the French will not come. I say only they will not come by sea" in an 1801 letter to the Board of Admiralty, cited to {{cite book | last = Andidora | first = Ronald | title = Iron Admirals: Naval Leadership in the Twentieth Century | publisher = Greenwood Publishing Group | year = 2000 | isbn = 978-0-313-31266-3 | url = https://books.google.com/books?id=0P-A8rIfO34C&pg=PA3 | page = 3}}. Our article ] has Jervis telling the House of Lords "I do not say the French cannot come, I only say they cannot come by sea", and then immediately, and without citation, saying it was more probably ]. I can't say I've ever seen it attributed to Keith anywhere else. ] (]) 13:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
== Private surveillance questions ==
:Hmm, Andidora does '''not''' in fact say it was in a letter to the Board of Admiralty, nor does he explicitly say 1801. And his source, ''The Age of Nelson'' by G J Marcus has it as Jervis telling the House of Lords sometime during the scare of '03-'05. Marcus doesn't give a source. ] (]) 13:52, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
::] was as early as 1806, and while I don't want to put too much weight on his phrase "used to say" it does at any rate raise the possibility that St Vincent said (or wrote) it more than once. Perhaps Marcus and our St Vincent article are both right. --] (]) 16:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Interesting. Thanks. Some modern accounts (not Southey apparently) claim Lord St Vincent was speaking in the House of Lords. If that was the case, wouldn't it be found in the parliamentary record? How far back does the parliamentary record go for the House of Commons and/or the House of Lords. ] (]) 17:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
:As for (2), the tense is still alive and kicking, if I do say so myself. ] (]) 23:12, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
::You don't say? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ] (]) 02:47, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
:::This is not what I am asking. ] (]) 05:05, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Then I will answer you more directly. You are wrong: while the usage you quote is ''less common'' than it once was, it ''is'' still current, according to my experience as a native BrE speaker for over 65 years. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ] (]) 13:32, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::I kid you not. &nbsp;--] 23:47, 31 December 2024 (UTC)


== What percentage of Ancient Greek literature was preserved? ==
The willingness of many Americans (and others, I presume) to accept private surveillance is difficult for me to understand. A few questions:


Has anyone seen an estimate of what percentage of Ancient Greek literature (broadly understood: literature proper, poetry, mathematics, philosophy, history, science, etc.) was preserved. It doesn't matter how you define "Ancient Greek literature", or if you mean the works available in 100 BC or 1 AD or 100 AD or 200 AD... Works were lost even in antiquity. I'm just trying to get a rough idea and was wondering if anyone ever tried to work out an estimate. ] (]) 17:58, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
* ] frequently advertises a ] service, for which people actually pay, by means of which activities in the home can be monitored remotely by the user on a mobile phone, and which will also lead to police being contacted in various emergencies. Question: when are they watching and when not? How often does a homeowner get busted for something seen on these cameras? Does the ADT Corporation have a legal ''duty'' to watch for certain types of crimes to report when possible? (domestic abuse comes quickly to mind) I won't ask if the NSA gets a copy of the information, only whether they've admitted it. Anyway - if anyone understands these issues, please sing out, or point to some sources.


:I don't have an answer handy for you at the moment, but I can tell you that people ''have'' tried to work out an estimate for this, at least from the perspective of "how many manuscripts containing such literature managed to survive past the early Middle Ages". We've worked this one out, with many caveats, by comparing library catalogues from very early monasteries to known survivals and estimating the loss rate. -- ] (]) 20:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
* Speaking of ads... ads about surveillance. ''Why'' do so many companies publish television ads that hint, not very subtly, that their products are spying on their users? An example that sticks out: an ad by <strike>]</strike> ] in which an actress representing their printer scans and copies documents, then pauses her activity to literally 'phone home to mother'. Or car ads like 'You talk, Sync listens'. What is their goal?
:One estimate is (less than) one percent. --] (]) 20:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)


:We have a ] article with a large "Antiquity" section. ] (]) 21:15, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
* In general, why do products with serious surveillance or security issues not have more trouble in the marketplace? I would think that, for example, the very serious security vulnerabilities in cars would have provoked an angry rejection of modern models, yet I see no evidence that consumers ask or companies offer cars that are free from surveillance and indeed even lethal sabotage. To the contrary, ] is offered as a ... feature. Consumers lined up to get the ]. Why?
::These are works known to have existed, because they were mentioned and sometimes even quoted in works that have survived. These known lost works are probably only a small fraction of all that have been lost. &nbsp;--] 23:35, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
:Few things which might be helpful:
:#{{xt|So profuse was Galen's output that the surviving texts represent nearly half of all the extant literature from ancient Greece.}}<ref>]</ref>
:#Although not just Greek, but only 1% of ancient literature survives.<ref>https://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog/2009/10/26/reference-for-the-claim-that-only-1-of-ancient-literature-survives/</ref> --{{User:ExclusiveEditor/Signature}} 11:12, 31 December 2024 (UTC)


:The following quantities are known: <math>S,</math> the number of preserved works, <math>L,</math> the (unknown) number of lost works, and <math>M_L,</math> the number of lost works of which we know, through mentions in preserved works. In a (very) naive model, let <math>\mu</math> stand for the probability that a given work (lost or preserved) is mentioned in some other preserved work (so <math>M_L=\mu L</math>). The expected number of mentions of preserved works in other preserved works is then <math>M_S=\mu(S-1).</math> If we have the numerical value of the latter quantity (which is theoretically obtainable by scanning all preserved works), we can obtain an estimate for <math>\mu</math> and compute <math>L\approx\frac{M_L}{M_S}(S-1).</math>
I just don't understand this huge disconnect between the public which says it opposes being spied on, and the supposedly free market that sells them ever more ways of being spied on. ] (]) 05:55, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
:&nbsp;--] 13:09, 31 December 2024 (UTC)


* Even without seeing any professional estimate of the kind I'm asking about here, my ballpark figure was that it had to be less than 1 percent, simply from noting how little of even the most celebrated and important authors has been preserved (e.g. about 5 percent for Sophocles) and how there are hundreds of authors and hundreds of works for which we only have the titles and maybe a few quotes, not to mention all those works of which we have not an inkling, the number of which it is, for this very reason, extremely hard to estimate.
:Just a quick note... I believe you're looking for ]. They make printers. I'm sure many fine printers have come from ] but they're not really known for it. <span style="font-family:monospace;">]</span>|] 09:27, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
::Yes, thanks! ] (]) 12:18, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
:A typical response (mostly OR, but easy to find in online discussions) is that americans don't want ''the government'' to be spying on us. At the same time they opt in to corporate data-gathering schemes (most striking to me is Facebook) because they accept it as a tradeoff for a service which they want. ] (]) 13:57, 5 February 2014 (UTC)


* But as a corollary to my first question I have another three:


* 1. Has any modern historian tackled this paradox, namely the enormous influence that the culture of the Ancient World has had on the West while at the same time how little we actually know about that culture, and as a consequence the problem that we seem to believe that we know much more than we actually do? in other words that our image of it that has had this influence on Western culture might be to some extent a modern creation and might be very different of what it actually was?
:People ''are'' concerned about the Xbox One "spying" on them. See e.g. here , or just google it. In that case, hard-core security types won't buy it, and millions of others will. I think the fear is far overblown, in that a <del>paranoiac</del> security-and-privacy-conscious consumer can simply unplug the system or sensors when not in use. Also, I'll mention that ''anything'' that records any form of information (text, audio, video, etc) can potentially be used to "spy" -- it all depends on your ]. For most of Xbox's market (it seems) the ability to play exclusive games with the latest motion capture is a big incentive. While you're on the topic, have you considered how many people pay top dollar to carry around "tracking devices" in their pockets? They mostly think it's quite handy to have mapping and navigation systems on their phones :) My point is, there is ''no way'' to have a motion-capture entertainment system (or personal always-on GPS) that cannot be used for ill, and to potentially harm the owner. Call it a ] if you will, but most consumers just want the cool new stuff. ] (]) 20:41, 5 February 2014 (UTC) (P.S. I assume that you only ever send or read encrypted email, right? How else can you be sure your mail provider isn't spying on you ;)
:: Actually, that's another example. There's ''no reason'' why a phone couldn't come with a GPS unit that is only activated by the user (even with a physical toggle switch) so that he can find where he is but not be tracked all the time. Instead, what I hear about are people carrying around phones that ''have'' GPS, for purposes of the government, but the poor saps using them don't even have access because they "don't have the software". I'd be curious how many of those there are. I mean, there's all this out and out ''bullshit'' about the Free Market and how the Free Market perfectly satisfies consumer demand, and when I look at things like this, I don't see the slightest evidence that the Free Market even ''exists''. ] (]) 21:21, 5 February 2014 (UTC)


* 2. I understand that in this regard there can be the opposite opinion (or we can call it a hypothesis, or an article of faith) which is the one that is commonly held (at least implicitly): that despite all that was lost the main features of our knowledge of the culture of the Ancient World are secure and that no lost work is likely to have modified the fundamentals? Like I said this seems to be the position that is commonly implicitly held, but I'm interested to hear if any historian has discussed this question and defended this position explicitly in a principled way?
:I haven't seen any of the ads you mention and I don't know what the products do, but from your question about ADT ("Does the ADT Corporation have a legal ''duty'' to watch for certain types of crimes...") it sounds as though you think that they employ people to watch video feeds from customers' homes. In reality I think it would be a huge scandal if any employee was ever found to be doing such a thing. If the word "monitoring" in the ads means anything, it's that they have 24-hour call centers that are notified if a window is opened or a motion sensor trips, at which point they call the home and/or the police to check that everything is okay. They are marketing to people who feel more comfortable if their homes are being "guarded"—or "watched", if you prefer, since guards are also called watchmen. That doesn't mean they want a guard peering in their windows. Some of them want to be able to peer in the windows themselves, remotely, if they're afraid something awful is happening, and that's the service ADT advertises for their Internet-connected cameras.
:The phrase "You talk; Sync listens" doesn't sound all that ominous to me. I dare say people associate it with a more positive image, like a friend who's a good listener. If you think your interpretation is more rational, consider that marketing slogans in ads have no impact on a company's legal obligations re privacy or anything else. If you judge their privacy practices from their ads, you're as foolish as anyone else who is swayed by advertising.
:In general, what you seem to be asking is why people don't demonstrate their commitment to privacy by staying in their homes all the time with the blinds drawn and no telephones or internet-connected computers or any other link to the outside world. The fact that people try to have a life doesn't mean that they don't care about their privacy. I'm old fashioned enough to still believe that the government has the job of safeguarding people's rights, and if you can't safely use any technology that might theoretically be used to spy on you, then the government has completely failed to do that. And maybe it has, but if so that's the problem that needs to be fixed, not Kinect. -- ] (]) 01:20, 6 February 2014 (UTC)


* 3. Finally to what extent is the position mentioned in point 2 simply a result of ignorance (people not being aware of how much was lost)? How widespread is (in the West) the knowledge of how much was lost? How has that awareness developed in the West, both at the level of the experts and that of the culture in general, since say the 15th century? Have you encountered any discussions of these points?
== Benemerent Metal ==


] (]) 08:40, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
I just read an article dated Sunday July 7th, 1996 in the Morning Star from Vernon, BC, Canada.
The article shows Mrs. Grace O'Keefe receiving the Benemerent Medal from Pope John Paul in June of that year.
She received the medal for amazing service to St. James Catholic Church.
Would you please post this on your site.
Thank you.
Linda <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 18:03, 5 February 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


:The issues touched upon are major topics in ] as well as the ], not only for the Ancient (Classical) World but for all historical study. Traditionally, ]s have concentrated on the culture of the high and mighty. The imprint on the historical record by '']'' is much more difficult to detect, except in the rare instances where they rose up, so what we think of as "the" culture of any society is that of a happy few. Note also that "the culture of the Ancient World" covers a period of more than ten centuries, in which kingdoms and empires rose and fell, states and colonies were founded and conquered, in an endless successions of wars and intrigues. On almost any philosophical issue imaginable, including ], ancient philosophers have held contrary views. It is not clear how to define "the" culture of the Ancient World, and neither is it clear how to define the degree to which this culture has influenced modern Western society. It may be argued that the influence of say Plato or Sophocles has largely remained confined to an upper crust. I think historians studying this are well aware of the limitations of their source material, including the fact that history is written by the victors. &nbsp;--] 13:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
:For anyone to help you here, they would need to know in which article and which context do you think it might be notable enough for it to be posted.
:Perhaps you could post it yourself where it is relevant? ] (]) 18:47, 5 February 2014 (UTC)


:178.51.7.23 -- Think of it this way: What did it mean to "publish" something in the ancient world? You had at least one written manuscript of your work -- rarely more than a handful of such manuscripts. You could show what you had written to your friends, have it delivered to influential people, bequeath it to your heirs, or donate it to an archive or research collection (almost none of which were meaningfully public libraries in the modern sense of that phrase). However you chose to do it, once you were gone, the perpetuation of your work depended on other people having enough interest in it to do the laborious work of copying the manuscript, or being willing to pay to have a copy made. Works of literature which did not interest other people enough to copy manuscripts of it were almost always eventually lost, which ensured that a lot of tedious and worthless stuff was filtered out. Of course, pagan literary connoisseurs, Christian monks, Syriac and Arabic translators seeking Greek knowledge, and Renaissance Humanists all had different ideas of what was worth preserving, but between them, they ensured that a lot of interesting or engaging or informative works ended up surviving from ancient times. I'm sure that a number of worthy books still slipped through the gaps, but some losses were very natural and to be expected; for example, some linguists really wish that Claudius's book on the Etruscan language had survived, but it's not surprising that it didn't, since it would not have generally interested ancient, medieval, or renaissance literate people in the same way it would interest modern scholars struggling with Etruscan inscriptions.
::I have added Mrs. O'Keefe to the list of recipients on the ] page under the John Paul II heading. I haven't added the reference though (Morning Star) because it would be out of step with the rest of the page.
:By the way, college bookstores on or near campuses of universities which had a Classics program sometimes used to have a small section devoted to the small green-backed (Greek) and red-backed (Latin) volumes of the ], and you could get an idea of what survived from ancient times (and isn't very obscure or fragmentary) by perusing the shelves... ] (]) 01:03, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
::] (]) 00:38, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
::Indeed - at the other end of the scale, the '']'' by Pausanias seems to have survived into the Middle Ages in a single MS (now of course lost), and there are no ancient references to either it or him known. Since the Renaissance it has been continuously in print. ] (]) 03:00, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
{{reflist-talk}}


= December 31 =
::: If anyone's up for it, that page can do with a thoroughgoing vacuuming and cleanup. For starters, we can get rid of the multiple repetitions of "awarded the medal to". -- ] </sup></font></span>]] 19:40, 6 February 2014 (UTC)


== Was the fictional character "The Jackal" (as played by Edward Fox and Bruce Willis) based on Carlos The Jackal? ==
== End of inheritance estates ==


Talking about the fictional assassin from the books and films. I once read somewhere that the real Carlos The Jackal didn't like being compared to the fictional character, because he said he was a professional Marxist revolutionary, not merely a hitman for hire to the highest bidder (not in the article about him at the moment, so maybe not true). ] (]) 02:47, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
When does an ] end? In other words, when does property stop being owned by the dead person's estate and start being owned by the heirs? For example, why does Bruce Chatwin still assert anything in 2011, instead of his heirs asserting things about him? I would assume that the answer is "it varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction," so I'm actually looking for a summary of different laws or a list of links to them. ] (]) 18:29, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
:To start with, there will be at least 50 different laws in the US. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 18:39, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
::I know. That's why I said "looking for a summary or a list of links." But perhaps different U.S. states have enacted the same provisions, so it could be somewhat less than 50 for the U.S. ] (]) 19:07, 5 February 2014 (UTC)


:No, the character wasn't based on Carlos. The films are based on the 1971 historical fiction novel '']'' by Frederick Forsyth, which begins with a fairly accurate account of the actual 1962 assassination attempt on Charles de Gaulle by the French Air Force lieutenant colonel ], which failed. Subsequently in the fictional plot the terrorists hire an unnamed English professional hitman whom they give the codename 'The Jackal'.
:::Estates exist as such through the period of ] as directed by the ] so there's no necessary reason for them to end existence at some ''arbitrary'' cut-off point if they are managed properly. Basically what happens is they either self-liquidated by the distribution of assets to real persons or other entities, or they evolve into charities or trusts and other corporate-type entities as set up by their provisions. A judge will oversee this process in probate court. In the meantime, estate taxes as applicable and lawyer fees will eat up the capital, as will sales tax on assets and commissions of liquidators. See also ] and ]. Foundations set up by estates and properly managed have no set lifetime. See for example, the , which was liquidated in 1990, on his direction, 200 years after it was set up. ] (]) 21:55, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
:] was a Venezuelan terrorist named Ilich Ramírez Sánchez operating in the 1970s and '80s. He was given the cover name 'Carlos' when in 1971 he joined the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. When authorities found some of his weapons stashed in a friend's house, a copy of Forsyth's novel was noticed on his friend's bookshelf, and a ''Guardian'' journalist then invented the nickname, as journalists are wont to do. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ] (]) 03:15, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
::There's also the fictionalised Ilich Ramírez Sánchez / Carlos the Jackal from the ] novels. ] (]) 10:44, 31 December 2024 (UTC)


== References ==
== Is this legal the way this guy is filming this "drug addict" in Vancouver? ==


I am on to creating an article on {{ill|Lu Chun|zh|陸淳}} soon. If anyone has got references about him other than those on google, it would be great if you could share them here. Thanks, {{User:ExclusiveEditor/Signature}} 11:20, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
wwww.youtube.com/watch?v=XOGkJXh-xRU


:Did you try the ] of Taiwan? The library has a lot of collection about history of Tang dynasty. If you want to write a research paper for publication purpose, you need to know what have been written by others. Then the under the central library can be a good starting point. ] (]) 09:16, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
] (]) 19:03, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
:That would depend on the laws in Vancouver and/or the province of British Columbia and/or the nation of Canada. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 19:50, 5 February 2014 (UTC)


== Battle of the Granicus ==
:I don't see what evidence there is for him being a "drug addict" ("crack head" as the video puts it). I mean, he's talking like a drunk, he's holding a bottle, he's talking ''about'' times he's been thrown in the ] ... that pretty well convinces me that he's drunk. I would be surprised if someone on crack acted like that. ] (]) 21:28, 5 February 2014 (UTC)


This month about identification of the Battle of the Granicus site, stating in particular: "Professor Reyhan Korpe, a historian from Çanakkale Onsekiz Mart University (ÇOMÜ) and Scientific Advisor to the “Alexander the Great Cultural Route” project, led the team that uncovered the battlefield". However, per ] it seems that the exact site has been known since at least . Am I reading the news correctly that what Korpe's team actually did was mapping Alexander’s journey to the Granicus rather than identifying the battle site per se? Per news, "Starting from Özbek village, Alexander’s army moved through Umurbey and Lapseki before descending into the Biga Plain". ]<sup>]</sup> 23:38, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Once again, we have no reliable evidence of any criminal or other behavior, and imputing such accusations can lead to liability for ]. So let's follow ] and drop the speculation about a private person.''' ] (]) 22:24, 5 February 2014 (UTC)


:If Körpe and his team wrote a paper about their discovery, I haven't found it, so I can only go by news articles reporting on their findings. Apparently, Körpe gave a presentation at the Çanakkale Provincial Directorate of Culture and Tourism for an audience of local mayors and district governors,<sup></sup> and I think the news reports reflect what he said there. Obviously, the presentation was in Turkish. Turkish news sources, based on an item provided by ], quote him as saying, "{{tq|Bölgede yaptığımız araştırmalarda antik kaynakları da çok dikkatli okuyarak, yorumlayarak savaşın <u>aşağı yukarı</u> tam olarak nerede olduğunu, hangi köyler arasında olduğunu, ovanın tam olarak neresinde olduğunu bulduk.}}" Google Translate turns this into, "During our research in the region, by reading and interpreting ancient sources very carefully, we found out <u>more or less</u> exactly where the war took place, which villages it took place between, and where exactly on the plain it took place." I cannot reconcile "more or less" with "exactly".
== Olympic sports ==
:The news reports do not reveal the location identified by Körpe, who is certainly aware of Hammond's theory, since he cited the latter's 1980 article in earlier publications. One possibility is that the claim will turn out to have been able to confirm Hammond's theory definitively. Another possibility is that the location they identified is not "more or less exactly" the same as that of Hammond's theory. &nbsp;--] 02:08, 2 January 2025 (UTC)


= January 1 =
Is there a ranking somewhere of Olympic sports by maximum number of spins or flips (or spins plus flips)? I want to compare. Which sports beat any Olympic sport? ] (]) 21:25, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
:Are you talking about figure skating? There are various required elements for the various categories. That might a factor in a few other sports as well, such as mogul skiing or snowboarding. Not so for events based strictly on speed and/or distance. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 21:34, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
::I can also think of diving, gymnastics vaulting, trampolining.. Skydiving and NASCAR and maybe some extreme sports must beat them all. You only need to build the halfpipe bigger (than the current one) to beat the snowboarding Olympic record for example. Yes, I don't expect to see swimming or equestrian on that list either.. ] (]) 22:26, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
:::Yes, in the summer games. The connection is that any event that involves judging is likely to have some required moves. In men's single in skating, for example, there are points for the number of revolutions on various spins and jumps. There's no "maximum" as such, but no one has yet successfully landed (or even tried, as far as I know) a quadruple axel. But some other types of jumps have quads. The scoring for each rotation goes up almost exponentially, so it's advantageous to land jumps that have more rotations. Having said all that, I'm not quite sure what you're asking. Are you trying to compare different sports with each other? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 23:16, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
::::Yes, I want to compare different sports with each other. ] (]) 23:49, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
::::To clarify, what's been achieved in the Olympics is the current maximum until someone beats him. ] (]) 00:04, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::...or her. ] (]) 00:14, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::::Oh right. I was thinking of snowboarding and aerial skiing and most other Olympic sports where men currently have the advantage (talent pool and a 10% or so top-flight strength and speed edge) and forgot about womens' rotational inertia and interest edge in gymnastics and trampolining where I'd be very unsure which sex holds the record without checking. ] (]) 01:00, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::: I'm not sure I'm following this thread. Many world records beat Olympic records. That's why when someone breaks an Olympic record it's not necessarily a new world record. -- ] </sup></font></span>]] 00:35, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::::With flip and spin records there should be fewer of these though, because records are set in half or even full turn chunks, and many won't be improved by tech any time soon the way a bigger halfpipe or ]s on speedskaters did. ] (]) 01:26, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
:I suspect the new Winter Olympic sport of ] skiing will be right up there as an answer to this question. See . Pretty spectacular. ] (]) 00:23, 6 February 2014 (UTC)


== Has there ever been an incident of a serial killer murdering another serial killer? ==
== Health insurance and employers ==


Question as topic. Has this ever happened outside of the movies? ] (]) 05:30, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
I'm not sure how it is in other countries (I'm only vaguely familiar with socialized medicine, eg Britain, Canada) but here in the US many people get their health insurance through their employer. I've been wondering for a while now why this is. I don't go through my employer for my car insurance, electric bill, or any other service besides my 401k, which makes a bit of sense since the money comes straight from my paycheck, but health insurance has been tied to employers for years. Why did this develop? I don't see why it didn't start from the beginning that I would get paid by my employer and then go get health insurance like I do car insurance, i.e. on my own. So how did this develop and why has it not changed for... well, ever. <span style="font-family:monospace;">]</span>|] 22:53, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
:The article ] has some enlightening comments about the rise in employer health plans since WWII. In a nutshell, it seems that unions pushed for this because it was impossible to get Congress to take any action toward establishing a national health insurance plan. And as you see, even 65 or more years later, it still meets strong resistance. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 23:24, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
::I'm Canadian and have supplemental health insurance over and above the government-provided healthcare. This is provided at a price, shared with my employer. This is vey common, probably as common as in the US. It covers some supposedly non-essential costs including dental, prescription coverage and other services that aren't covered by our regular care. ] (]) 00:45, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
:Also consider it from the employer's point of view. If you can't get car insurance, you can get public transport or someone can give you a lift. If you can't get home insurance, then it's unlikely to stop you working (in fact, if something does go wrong, you'll probably want overtime to make more money). If you can't get health insurance, then you're going to have a lot more days off sick, since the point where it is costing you more to visit the doctor than to lose a few days of wages (once you've exhausted any free sick days) comes much sooner. <small> As an aside, many British companies, especially in higher end jobs, also offer private health insurance to their employees, presumably for similar reasons, but related to getting the employee seen to faster, and therefore working faster. </small>] (]) 09:47, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
::(ec) One reason mentionned sometimes (at least by my company) is that they value good health for all their employees. Whereas they don't value their employees using loads of electricity in their own home, an employee that feels good is more productive, especially if they get regular health checks and if they are is not worrying about becoming helpless because he is too sick and cannot afford the cost of getting better. Regarding why your company does not pay for your car insurance, well, in theory your company should value you having good means of mobility, but also in theory you could take the bus, or buy a house next to work and walk, so paying for everyone's car insurance would mean those taking the bus don't get this particular benefit, so it would be unfair to them to pay the car owners this little extra. --] (]) 09:50, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
= February 6 =


:This is an interesting question. Just because you can't find any incident, doesn't mean this kind of case never happened (type II error). ] (]) 09:57, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
== Jus solis vs. jus sanguinis principles in running for president in the U.S ==


:Apparently yes: ] was killed by one of his his accomplices, ]. --] (]) 12:13, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
I know that a person who is a U.S citizen by the principle of ] is elligeable to run for president of the U.S, but what about a person who is U.S citizen by the principle of ]? Is he or she elligeable to run for president as well as if he or she would have been born in American soil or does the Natural Born Citizen clause of the U.S Constitution only applies to jus solis Americans? Could Ted Cruz for example, who seems to have presidential ambitions and is trying to renounce his Canadian citizenship, be eligible to run for president by the principle of jus sanguinis given that his mother was born an American citizen, or again, does the Natural Born Citizen clause's application is narrow enough to exclude him from running for president? Another example....A minority of people have made the false claim that President Obama was born in Kenya when he was actually born in Hawaii, but let's say that he was born in Kenya for the sake of the question. Again, would Barack Obama still have been eligible to run for president by the principle of jus sanguinis given that his mother was born an American citizen by the principle of jus solis like Ted Cruz's mother, or would the Natural Born Citizen clause's purpose and definition have been narrow enough to exclude him from running for president? Again, I know that he was born in Hawaii. I'm just making up a scenario for the sake of the question. ] (]) 06:34, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
:The answer is that we won't know until a case comes up before the Supreme Court. The U.S. Constitution is a short document relative to those of other countries. Much is left open to interpretation. —] (]) 07:16, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
::Why then does Ted Cruz and others believe that he is 100% qualified to run for president of the U.S even though he was born in Canada? Why would the birthers, on the other hand, say that Obama being born in Kenya according to them is not qualified to run for president even though his mother is American-born like Ted Cruz's mother? If a person was born an American national by means of jus sanguinis, how would it violate or not violate the Natural Born Citizen Constitutional requirement to run for president or vice president? If so, would that mean or not that a person can be born in another country and still be able to run for president or vice president of the U.S? ] (]) 16:51, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
:::The answer is ''we don't know'' because the issue has never been tested. Ultimately, the U.S. is a country with a ] legal system, where the ''interpretation'' of law by courts through the means of ''precedence'' is supreme. A statute means nothing until a court interprets it, and where there is no precedence, there is no means to adjudge it. It's ambiguous, and until there is a test case, it will remain ambiguous. There are of course unambiguous cases (i.e. we're sure that someone like ] could never be president). But with the "edge cases", the question is unanswerable until the courts decide, or until a more explicit, unambiguous law is written. Since we don't have the latter, and we don't have the former, we don't have a way to answer for those edge cases. --]''''']''''' 18:51, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
::::Ok, I also read that children born to foreign diplomats and children born to enemy forces engaged in hostile occupation of the country's territory would not be natural born citizens even if born in the U.S. What if a foreign diplomat was married to an American-born citizen and gives birth to a child? Would the child, because of the American-born parent, be a natural-born citizen and if so, would the child be eligible to run for president? ] (]) 22:13, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
::::: As Jayron says, we don't know for sure until it happens. But the general sense among those in the know seems to be that if you're entitled to US citizenship from birth, you're a natural-born citizen, no matter why you're entitled to it.
::::: By the way, it's not clear that it would be settled in the ''courts''. It might be a ] and therefore not ]. The Constitution provides for Congress to do the actual counting of electoral votes and presumably Congress is the court of last resort for all these questions. --] (]) 22:19, 6 February 2014 (UTC)


::Of course it would be more notable if the two were not connected to each other. --] (]) 08:22, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::: What about the product of the rape of an American woman by a member of a hostile invading foreign force? -- ] </sup></font></span>]] 23:02, 6 February 2014 (UTC)


:If you're including underworld figures, this happens not infrequently. As an Aussie, a case that springs to mind was ] murdering ]. Both underworld serial murderers. I'm sure there are many similar cases in organised crime. ] (]) 08:40, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::::Can't tell if that's serious or not, but if it is, Trovatore's comment stands: "But the general sense among those in the know seems to be that if you're entitled to US citizenship from birth, you're a natural-born citizen, no matter why you're entitled to it." ] (]) 00:57, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
::Aren't hired killers distinct from the usual concept of a serial killer? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 09:11, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::::: Certainly serious. I was just responding to Willminator's ''...children born to enemy forces engaged in hostile occupation of the country's territory would not be natural born citizens even if born in the U.S''. That seems to be in stark contrast to what you and Trovatore are saying. -- ] </sup></font></span>]] 04:34, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::::: Well, if ''both'' parents were hostile occupiers, I think that might apply. Or just the mother, who came over to engage in hostile occupation while pregnant by a non-American man. Or two foreign diplomats, or a pregnant foreign diplomat, or ... I think you get the picture.
::::::::: The key phrase is "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof". --] (]) 07:21, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::: No, I was considering the case of a male foreign occupier who rapes an American woman. She goes full term and gives birth in the US. Is the child an American citizen? -- ] </sup></font></span>]] 19:38, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::: Yes, I think so &mdash; born in the US, and "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" by virtue of his mother, I suppose. The phrase is mainly about diplomats, I believe &mdash; they didn't want the child of some ambassador and his wife being automatically burdened with US citizenship. --] (]) 19:44, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
:::: ]s ≠ ]. —] (]) 11:14, 7 February 2014 (UTC)


:Outside the movies? Sure, on ]. ] (]) 21:09, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
:By the by, Ted Cruz is not very good at renouncing his Canadian citizenship. . ] (]) 00:58, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
:The Dexter character from the multiple Dexter series is based on ], who killed criminals, including murderers. It is necessary to decide how many merders each of those murders did in order to decide if you would want to classify them as serial killers or just general murderers. ] (]) 19:04, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
::It sounds like the '']'' film series might have also drawn inspiration from Filho. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 03:24, 4 January 2025 (UTC)


== Another serial killer question ==
::There is an amusing argument to be made that the problem relates to the documentation supporting Cruz's claim to U.S. citizenship. Canada has an obligation to ensure that Cruz is not rendered ]; in principle, a significant amount of documentary evidence could be required to ensure that Cruz actually does meet U.S. requirements for citizenship. Specifically, if the Canadian government were particularly sticky, Cruz could be required to prove that his mother prior to his birth (including at least five years after she turned 14)&mdash;something that might actually be relatively difficult to establish, given that the relevant period was more than forty years ago. (Curiously, the birther movement seems remarkably quiet on this issue.) ](]) 05:02, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
:::They're too busy creating fake Democratic Party websites. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 05:42, 7 February 2014 (UTC)


about 20 years ago, I saw a documentary where it was said that the majority of serial killers kill for sexual gratification, or for some sort of revenge against their upbringing, or because in their head that God (or someone else) told them to kill. But the FBI agent on the documentary said something about how their worst nightmare was an extremely intelligent, methodical killer who was doing what he did to make some sort of grand statement about society/political statement. That this sort of killer was one step ahead of law enforcement and knew all of their methods. Like a Hannibal Lecter type individual. He said that he could count on the fingers of one hand the sort of person who he was talking about, but that these killers were the most difficult of all to catch and by far the most dangerous. Can you tell me any examples of these killers? ] (]) 05:49, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
::: That five-year rule, by the way, is (I'm told) why Obama would be disqualified if he were born abroad: his mother had not lived in the US for five years after age 14, as she wasn't yet 19 when he was born. From the Immigration and Nationality Act (1952):
:] ("the Unabomber") comes to mind. --] (]) 07:06, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
:::: §301(a): "The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth: ...(7) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than ten years, at least five of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years: ''Provided,'' That any periods of honorable service in the Armed Forces of the United States by such citizen parent may be included in computing the physical presence requirements of this paragraph."
::I second this. Ted the Unabomber only got finally caught by chance, only after his brother happened to recognise him. ] (]) 08:43, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
:::: §301(b): "Any person who is a national and citizen of the United States at birth under paragraph (7) of subsection (a), shall lose his nationality and citizenship unless he shall come to the United States prior to attaining the age of twenty-three years and shall immediately following such coming be continuously physically present in the United States for at least five years: ''Provided,'' That such physical presence follows the attainment of the age of fourteen years and precedes the age of twenty-eight years."
:More than a few killed for money; ] apparently just for joy. The case of ] comes to mind, who hoped to demonstrate superior intellect; if they had not bungled their first killing despite spending seven months planning everything, more would surely have followed. &nbsp;--] 15:09, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
::: That's from the back of a ''Report of Birth Abroad of a Citizen of the United States of America'', issued by a consulate in January 1961, shortly before Obama's birth. —] (]) 06:03, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
:]. ] (]) 13:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC)


== Missing fire of London ==
:For some interesting reading: . There was a Senate resolution in 2008 declaring the opinion that John McCain was eligible for the presidency despite having been born in the Panama Canal Zone. Additional complications come into it in this case, because the Canal Zone was under US administration but not part of the US for most constitutional purposes. People born within the Canal Zone at that time did not automatically receive US citizenship. Laws were later passed extending US citizenship to those who had been born in the Canal Zone, but since legislation was required it was not clear whether this qualified as "natural born". The article mentions several other candidates who could have tested the "natural born" requirement for various reasons had they won. --] (]) 20:13, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
::Also, I understand there is some debate about whether he was born in the CZ at all, as opposed to in a nearby hospital in Panama proper. I don't know whether there's any credibility to that or whether it's at the "Obama born in Kenya" level of "debate". --] (]) 20:18, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
:::I don't see how that's relevant or parallel to the supposed Obama case, since both of McCain's parents were American citizens. I have never heard it said the child of citizen parents overseas due to muilitary service is of dubious citizenship. ] (]) 01:44, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
::::Well, it's certainly not relevant to whether he's a citizen. It ''might'' be relevant to whether he's a natural-born citizen. As I said earlier, the smart money seems to be on the proposition that if you're entitled to citizenship from birth, then you're a natural-born citizen, but there's not exactly unanimous agreement on that. --] (]) 02:10, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
I read that a person born who was born in Puerto Rico is not allowed to run for president or vice president of the U.S even though the person was born an American citizen. Puerto Ricans are citizens by statute. Congress "naturalized" them. So, Puerto Ricans can't run for president or vice president. If so, and if people born outside of the U.S can run for president by means of jus sanguinis, what if a person was born in Puerto Rico to at least one parent who was born in the states? Should the parent contact the proper authorities that way the child would be a natural born citizen as if he or she were born in the states that way the child would be eligible to run for president or vice president of the U.S when he or she grows up even though the child was born in Puerto Rico and if the parent met all the criteria necessary for the child to have been born in Puerto Rico as a natural born citizen by means of jus sanguinis? ] (]) 16:23, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
:Where did you read that? I don't think it's true. I have never heard of anyone born in Puerto Rico running for president, but I don't believe there would be any bar to eligibility (though the question would certainly come up if such a person appeared to have a genuine chance of winning). --] (]) 20:25, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
::I never said that there was a Puerto Rican-born who has tried to run for president of the U.S. ] (]) 21:23, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
:::No, but you said you had read they weren't eligible. You may have read that, but if so, whoever wrote it was wrong. Well, as best as we can currently tell, until it happens. --] (]) 21:39, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
::::This is where I read that Puerto Rican-born Americans aren’t elligeable to run for president or vice-president: “One might think that while all citizens at birth may not be natural born citizens, all natural born citizens are also citizens at birth. However, it is possible for someone to be natural born without being a citizen at birth, or even being a citizen. Being a child of foreign diplomats or invaders is one way, but it is also possible that someone might be natural born on territory not incorporated into the United States at the time. For example, natural born citizens of Puerto Rico are not natural born citizens of the United States, eligible to be president, while it remains a protectorate or dependency. However, citizens of Puerto Rico have been naturalized by statute to be citizens of the United States at birth. Now if Puerto Rico were admitted as a state, its natural born citizens would then become natural born citizens of the United States, eligible to be president, if otherwise qualified. If it later seceded (with the consent of Congress) its natural born citizens would cease to be natural born citizens of the U.S.” However, it seems that some Supreme Court justices are opened to discussing the idea of whether just being born in Puerto Rico is itself enough for a person to be able to run for the presidency or vice presidency of the U.S. So, the question remains about whether or jus sanguinis can apply to someone born in Puerto Rico were one or both parents was born in the States and thus, whether or not that Puerto Rican-born child can run for president. ] (]) 05:03, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
::::: Took a glance at your first link. That page seems to have a very strong point of view, one which is probably "wrong" at least in the sense that, if it were ever tested, the decision would go the other way. That's about everything, not just Puerto Rico. I don't think you can rely on that page on the issue in question. Its citations may well be accurate, though, and you are certainly entitled to consider its arguments in forming your own view on how the issue ''should'' be decided. --] (]) 05:07, 9 February 2014 (UTC)


] covered the in this somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but apparently factual, film. At 00:15 it refers to 'the biggest London blaze since 1892'. What happened in 1892 that could be considered comparable to the Palace's demise, or at least sufficiently well-known to be referred to without further explanation?
: My guess is that, as in other respects, the eligibility rule will always be read broadly for anyone nominated by a Major Party and narrowly for a third-party candidate who looks likely to disrupt the orderly anointment. —] (]) 06:05, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
:: Hmm. I'm generally well-disposed to this sort of cynicism, especially as a third-party supporter myself, but I don't see much evidence for it in recent history. The last two seriously disruptive candidates were ] in 1992 and ] in 1968 (you could make a case for ] in 2000, but that's only because of the extreme closeness of that election, which was hardly predictable so I'm not sure it counts). I don't recall any serious effort to disqualify any of them. Not that there was much to go on, to be sure. --] (]) 06:14, 9 February 2014 (UTC)


I can see nothing in ], ], ] or ]. The records "May 8, 1892 - Scott's Oyster Bar, Coventry Street. 4 dead.", but also lists later fires with larger death tolls. Does anyone have access to the Journal of the ]'s article ? <span class="nowrap">]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></span> 13:48, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
== Citing and Reference ==


:I see the ] destroyed half the capital of Newfoundland and Labrador. But comparing that to ], which destroyed only the Crystal Palace, is an odd choice. ]&nbsp;] 14:45, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
If I am using Wikepedia as reference for geographical names, do I have to create reference as to where I got the names? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 06:34, 6 February 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Only if the geographical names are not well-known to most people and if the names are hard to find. ] (]) 07:06, 6 February 2014 (UTC) ::It would also be odd to call it a "London blaze". &nbsp;--] 15:15, 1 January 2025 (UTC)


:::The closest I found was the ]. ] (]) 16:30, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
== 2 notes played at the same time question. ==
::::Also a large fire at Wood Street in the City in 1882 (perhaps later mistaken for 1892?). ] (]) 16:40, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::I too wonder whether the Movietone newsreader was the victim of a typo. In December ''1897'' ] suffered "the greatest fire...that has occurred in the City since the Great Fire of 1666". . --] (]) 11:46, 2 January 2025 (UTC) That's also mentioned, I now see, in Verbarson's London Fire Journal link. --] (]) 12:24, 2 January 2025 (UTC)


:{{re|Verbarson}} ''Fires in London and the Metropolitan Fire Brigade in 1892'' is available on JSTOR as part of the Misplaced Pages Library. It doesn't give details of any individual fires. ] (]) 16:51, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
What happens when i play a note with the frequency of X hz and Y hz at the same time. The "resulting note" will be a note with a frequency of (x +y)/2? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 10:21, 6 February 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::{{Re|DuncanHill}}, so it is. The DOI link in that article is broken; I should have been more persistent with the JSTOR search. Thank you. <span class="nowrap">]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></span> 17:15, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
:Unexpectedly, from the ''Portland Guardian'' (that's ]): Dated 26 November 1892. ]&nbsp;] 07:02, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
::Oh, the poor ducks. &nbsp;--] 12:05, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
::<small>The whole OCR transcript of that blurred newspaper column is hilarious. "The fames have obtained a firm bold", indeed! {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ] (]) 12:07, 2 January 2025 (UTC)</small>
::Setting aside the unsung history of the passionate ducks of London, what I see in that clipping is:
::* 1892 - Australia is still a colony (18+ years to go)
::* which is linked to the UK by (i) long-distance shipping, and (ii) ]
::* because of (i), the London docks are economically important
::* because of (ii), they get daily updates from London
::Therefore, the state of the London docks (and the possible fate of the Australian ships there) is of greater importance to Australian merchants than it is to most Londoners. So headlines in Portland may not reflect the lesser priority of that news in the UK? <span class="nowrap">]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></span> 17:15, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
:::Yes, I was highly impressed by the rapidity of the Victorian Victorian telegraph system there. But my money's on Antiquary's theory, above - I think the newsreel announcer's script had 1892 as a typo for 1897. ]&nbsp;] 18:31, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
::::Which I have finally found (in WP) at ] (using the same cite as Antiquary). It does look persuasively big ("The Greatest Fire of Modern Times" - ]), though there were no fatalities. Despite that, an inquest was held. It sounds much more likely than the docks fire to have been memorable in 1936. <span class="nowrap">]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></span> 19:26, 2 January 2025 (UTC)


:That's known as a "chord", and you get resonances, not frequency averaging... ] (]) 11:09, 6 February 2014 (UTC)


= January 4 =
:See ] for the music-theory description. ] has some nice graphs of how the waves combine for nearby frequencies to produce a wave that has two major audible components - the average frequency, but also half of the difference in frequency. ] (]) 13:20, 6 February 2014 (UTC)


== Could the Sack of ] be almost ==
== Ads ==


historical in the sense that the story of what happened, happened to a different city but was transferred to Jericho?] (]) 05:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
Are ads on Youtube just random or based on searches you've done? ] ] 13:16, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
:It might be. But then again, it might not be. Following whatever links there are to the subject within the article might be a good start for finding out about whatever theories there might be. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 07:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
:Certainly they are related to your searches and browsing, unless you've opted out of interest-based ads (which it's possible to do). More here . --] 13:42, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
:To believe that the events in the story are historical, whether for Jericho or another city, amounts to believing in a miracle. Barring miracles, no amount of horn-blowing and shouting can bring defensive walls down.
::This is done through the use of "cookies", right? I've noticed that youtube and google images and such not infrequently post things that have nothing to do with what I'm searching for at that moment, but have searched for in the past. For example, looking for an old sports clip and seeing stuff about the Marx Brothers popping in there randomly. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 14:25, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
:Jericho was destroyed in the 16th century BCE. The first version of the ] was written in the late 7th century BCE, so there are 9 centuries between the destruction and the recording of the story. An orally transmitted account, passed on through some thirty generations, might have undergone considerable changes, turning a conquest with conventional war practices, possibly with sound effects meant to install fear in the besieged, into a miraculous event. &nbsp;--] 10:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
:::I don't think it's cookies so much as they keep a record of your browsing history. --] 14:31, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
::::OK, I went to that link you posted above. It appears the database is at Google's end and the cookies just retain the opt-out checkmarks. So I'll see if that makes a difference. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 15:22, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::Slightly relevant: You can see your search history at <span style="font-family:monospace;">]</span>|] 18:12, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::Requires an account. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 22:38, 6 February 2014 (UTC)


: The sack was described in the ], which however was likely compiled around 640–540 BCE, some six or seven centuries after the supposed Hebrew conquest of Canaan. Some scholars now discount the whole Exodus and Conquest narrative as political lobbying written by ] (which the Persians later took over) hoping to be given control over the former territory of Israel as well as being restored to their native Judah.
== Receiving immunity ==
:The narrative logically explains why a people once 'Egyptian slaves' (like all subjects of the Pharoah) were later free in Canaan, but by then it was likely forgotten that Egypt once controlled almost the entirety of Canaan, from which it withdrew in the ]. The Hebrew peoples of the (always separate) states of Israel and Judah emerged from Canaanite culture ''in situ'', though minor folk movements (for example, of the ], who often had Egyptian names) may have had a role. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ] (]) 10:52, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
:::I heard the sack of Jericho in book of Joshua was an explanatory myth, not some kind of Exile claim to ownership, which is more logical anyway. If there were a more recent city that was sacked, it would be less than the estimate of 30 geneations of remembrance. I did forget to stress that when I asked if the story could be almost historical that I wasn't suggesting that Jericho's walls were supernaturally destroyed by trumpets. After all, the actual method of conquest in the story could be the connivance of the traitor Rahab.] (]) 02:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
::::Oh, certainly the myth likely existed before it was consolidated with others into the written documents, just as stories about the mythical ] may have been adapted into the fictional ] of the supposedly contemporary ] describing his exploits in the 6th century BCE court of ], although scholars generally agree that this was actually written in the period 167–163 BCE. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ] (]) 07:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)


::The Israelites partly emerged ''in situ'' (though there was also a definite nomad/pastoralist component), especially along the West Bank hill-chain (running in an approximate north-south direction) where the ] took hold among the rural inhabitants there. They were not originally city-dwellers, and their culture could not have been consolidated until the power of the Canaanite cities in that area had declined, and it's not too hard to believe that they sometimes moved against what cities remained, so that part of the conquest narrative is not necessarily a pure myth. Jericho was in the valley (not along the hill-chain), so was not part of the core settled rural agricultural four-room house area, but was inhabited more by pastoralists/animal-herders who became affiliated... ] (]) 21:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
All of this talk about Governor Chris Christie and the ] made me think of this question. Several people are seeking immunity from prosecution; the idea, of course, being that (in return for immunity) they will reveal information that the prosecuting authorities want and/or need to enable the prosecution of some other (usually higher-ranking) individual. So, here is my question. Let's call the person seeking immunity "Person X". The basic idea is this: Prosecutor says, "If you give up the information, I will grant you immunity from prosecution" and Person X says "OK". So, at this point, removing the prospect of prosecution is entirely contingent upon Person X revealing their information. Now, ''before'' he is assured immunity, Person X does not want to "spill the beans" on what information he knows. He will not want to disclose his vital information until and unless he is guaranteed immunity. (He does not want to forfeit the "big" bargaining chip that he holds in this negotiation process.) So, how exactly does this play out? In other words, the Prosecutor will not know what "juicy information" Person X holds until Person X tells him what that information is, exactly. But, Person X will not reveal that information until he is assured immunity. The prosecutor, presumably, is not going to guarantee immunity unless the information is good, helpful, and significant. In other words, the prosecutor will not grant immunity only to have Person X subsequently offer up some non-important, trivial, and insignificant information. So, my question is: how do the two parties get over this seeming "impasse"? The prosecutor wants to find out what information Person X has, and the prosecutor will not guarantee immunity until he feels that the obtained information will be "worth it". Meanwhile, Person X holds this information close to the vest; he will not reveal the information until and unless he is promised immunity. It seems like a standstill. It seems both parties are at an impasse. How is this typically worked out and resolved ... so that both parties obtain what they want and do not "screw over" the other party? Another way to ask this question is: who makes the first move, without putting himself at a disadvantage and at the mercy of the other party? If the prosecutor offers immunity first (without hearing the information first), then the prosecutor runs the risk of having offered immunity for worthless and unhelpful information. If Person X reveals the information first, Person X runs the risk that the prosecutor will now have that information and (now that he has it), he will not offer the immunity. Thanks for any insight. ] (]) 19:29, 6 February 2014 (UTC)


==Accessibility, for URLs in text document==
:I believe the prosecutor can offer immunity "contingent upon the defendant providing material information which leads to a conviction". So, if the info provided is useless, the immunity is withdrawn. ] (]) 19:38, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
We've been asked to increase the accessibility of all documents we produce, esp. syllabi. I use WordPerfect, where I don't seem to be able to have a URL with a descriptive text in the way Word allows. 508 is the operative term. I'm trying this out: "Princeton University has some handy tips on what is called “active reading, on this webpage: https://mcgraw.princeton.edu/active-reading-strategies." In other words, descriptive text followed by a bare URL. Is that good for screen readers? {{U|Graham87}}, how does this look/sound to you? Thanks for your help, ] (]) 18:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
:{{replyto|Drmies}} I wouldn't make a general rule about that as it's context-dependent ... depending on how many URL's are in a document, reading them might get annoying. In general I'd prefer to read a link with descriptive text rather than a raw URL, because the latter aren't always very human-readable ... but I don't think this is really an accessibility issue; just do what would make sense for a sighted reader here. ] (]) 00:34, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
::], thanks. There's only one or two in a ten-page document. According to our bosses, this is an accessibility issue--but it seems to me as if someone sounded an alarm and now everyone who doesn't actually know much about the issue is telling us to comply with a set of directives which they haven't given us. Instead, we are directed to some self-help course that involves only Word. It's fun. ] (]) 15:34, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
:Stop using WordPerfect and start using Word. --] 07:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
::I don't know why, but it seems many legal professionals prefer WordPerfect. ] (]) 10:21, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
:::], thanks so much for that helpful suggestion. ] (]) 15:27, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
:You can create a hyperlink to a file using WordPerfect. First, you select text or a graphic you want to create a hyperlink. Then you click “Tools”, select “Hyperlink” and then type a path or document you want to link to. ] (]) 10:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
::], that sounds like it might work: thank you. ] (]) 15:34, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
:{{small|Do web browsers display WordPerfect documents? I don't think I have a WordPerfect viewing app installed on my platform (macOS). Does anyone have a ] of a WordPerfect document handy? &nbsp;--] 14:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC)}}
::], WP translates easily to PDF and to Word. I use PDFs in my ]. ] (]) 15:34, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
:::You can see why WordPerfect is popular in legal circles at ] (fourth bullet point) and ]. ] (]) 16:48, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
:::I don't have the feeling this answers my question. Would I have to find and install an app that translates .wpd documents to .pdf or .doc documents? Would I then be able to tell my browser to use this app? The question is informative, not meant to bash a product that I have zero familiarity with. &nbsp;--] 17:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
::::I've opened early WordPerfect (WP 5.1) documents using both Word and Firefox without any need for a third party translator. The only trick was changing the file extension to .WPD so that my computer could create the file association more easily. In the old days, file extensions were not so rigorously restrictive and many files ended up with extensions like .01 or .v4 or whatever. ] (]) 17:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::I cannot check if it would work for me, for lack of access to any WordPerfect document of any age. &nbsp;--] 21:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::: ]&nbsp;] 00:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::::Thanks, finally an answer. When I click on a {{mono|.wpd}} link, the file is downloaded. I can then open and view it with ]. (I can also open it with ], but then I get to see garbage like ╖#<m\r╛∞¼_4YÖ¤ⁿVíüd╤Y.) &nbsp;--] 14:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
::Yes, web browsers do display WordPerfect documents. If you google “wpd online viewer”, you will find a lot of them. ] (]) 23:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
:::When I google , I get two hits, one to this page and one to where you can <u>upload</u> a WPD document in order to be able to view it online. What happens when you view an html page with something like {{mono|<nowiki><a href="file:///my-document.wpd">Looky here!</a></nowiki>}} embedded? &nbsp;--] 13:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
::::Yes, you're right. Only Docx2doc (https://www.docx2doc.com/convert) and ] provide online viewers now. However, there are still other offline alternative, such as Cisdem (https://www.cisdem.com/document-reader-mac.html) and ]. ] (]) 09:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
::::Some other text editors, such as ], can open and view WPD files. However, after editing, the WPD files can only be saved as other formats, such as docx or doc. ] (]) 09:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC)


One more thing that just came up--we got rapped on the fingers though the mandatory "training" didn't touch on it. We've been told that hyphens are bad. The internet tells me that screenreaders have trouble with hyphenated words, but does this apply also to date ranges? {{U|Graham87}}, does yours get this right, "Spring Break: 17-21 March"? For now I'm going with "Spring Break, 17 to 21 March", but it just doesn't look good to my traditional eyes. And on top of that I have to use sans serif fonts... ] (]) 17:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
:: Yes, but that is my whole point. Person X says "OK, this is the info that I have to offer ... (provides details) ...". ''After'' getting the information, the prosecutor can then say "Oh, that info is really not material or helpful to me, so I don't think I will offer immunity after all." But, now, the prosecutor ''has'' the info (that he didn't have a minute ago). How does Person X protect himself against this? Side note: you stated that the material must lead to a conviction. I cannot imagine that to be true. Person X can offer up tons of info (that he has), but he clearly has no control over whether the jury ultimately decides to convict or not. I can't imagine this (a successful conviction) being a part of the deal. What Person X would ever take ''that'' risk? ] (]) 20:00, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
*To give another example, I have to redo this: "Final grades are computed along the following scale: A: 90-100; B+: 87-89; B: 80-86; C+: 77-79; C: 70-76; D+: 67-69; D: 60-66; F: Below 60." ] (]) 17:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
**{{replyto|Drmies}} Under its default setting my screen reader does read out the hyphens, but I have my punctuation set lower than normal because I don't like hearing too much information so it doesn't for me. The other major Windows screen reader, ], also reads them out by default. ] (]) 01:05, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
***Thanks ]--I appreciate your expertise. ] (]) 01:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
***:As recently discussed on the Help or Teahouse desk, a date or other range should ''technically'' use an unspaced ], not a hyphen (according to most manuals of style, including our own), but I doubt that screen readers would notice the difference. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ] (]) 08:23, 8 January 2025 (UTC)


= January 5 =
::: The process, formally called a "]", and informally "queen for a day", is described . -- ]'''ჷ'''] 20:34, 6 February 2014 (UTC)


== How to search for awkwardly named topics ==
::: The key point, as Wisenberg observes, is that you don't proffer unless you really have to. But there are so often more than just X and the prosecutor - the prosecutor wouldn't be talking immunity if there were only one possible defendant. Say there's there's not just accused person X, but their alleged co-conspirators Y and Z too. The prosecutor needs a conviction, but he'd rather convict two people than none; he'd like three convictions (and so rather than immunity he might only offer a reduced charge to whoever cooperates). The whole thing is a high-stakes ] - X,Y, and Z each have their own lawyers, and each is saying that the others are the prime movers and that they're just a pawn. If Y or Z cuts a deal with the prosecutor, X is SOL, so there's pressure on X (and thus in turn on Y and Z too) to cut a deal, even if that involves the risks of proffering. In a case like that, the prosecutor is in the catbird seat, as he can play each off against the other and bargain each to give more and accept a crappier deal in exchange. -- ]'''ჷ'''] 21:03, 6 February 2014 (UTC)


On and off I've been looking for good sources for the concepts of ] and ] so as to improve the articles, but every time I try I only get one or two somewhat helpful results. Many of the results are not of material about the concepts of general union or trade union federations, but often about a ''specific'' instance of them, and as a result hard to gleen a lot from about the broader concept. Typcially this is because of issues such as many general unions being named as such (for example ]). I'm aware of the search trick that'd be something like {{tq|"general union" -Transport & General Workers' Union}} but I've found it largely cumbersome and ineffective, often seeming to filter out any potential material all together
::::: To: ] – Thanks for the information. That was very interesting. The link you provided (Wisenberg's website) was very helpful. Also, in my original post above, it was implicit that there are other defendants (or, at least one) besides Person X. Otherwise, there would be no issue at all. Thanks. ] (]) 21:44, 7 February 2014 (UTC)


::: It isn't just up to the prosecutor. Ultimately a judge is going to make a decision about whether the agreement applies. ] (]) 17:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC) Thought I'd ask because I'd like to improve those articles, and this is an issue I'm sure would come up again for me otherwise on other articles ] (]) 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)


:Do any of the articles listed at ] help? ] (]) 14:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
:::: Are you sure about that? The decision of whether or not '''''to''''' prosecute lies in the sole discretion of the prosecutor. If he decides not to prosecute, there is no legal proceeding whatsoever; hence, no judge ever enters the picture. Right? (Or no?) If, on the other hand, we are talking about a plea agreement, then, yes, the judge will enter the picture. And he will accept/approve that agreement (or not). ] (]) 19:03, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
:If you search for , most hits will not be about a specific instance. &nbsp;--] 14:43, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
:Our relevant articles (although neither really has a lot of content) are ] and ]. ] (]) 12:30, 8 February 2014 (UTC)


= January 6 =
== Anyone ever actually been found and rescued thanks to their Breitling Emergency watch? ==


== What does the ] consist of? ==
I ask this in the humanities section instead of the science or computing because I am interested in any news references (if any) telling of people being found and rescued because they used their (a high-end wristwatch that puts out a radio signal when activated). It seems like the odds are against you if, say, your aircraft goes down in a very remote region. First, search crews would have to be in range of the little watch's propagating signal, and second, they'd have to have equipment tuned into whatever frequency that thing puts out on, and all of this within the time period the watch's power reserves last (hopefully, they notice you're gone and come looking for you close enough to where you are in that window). ] (]) 22:22, 6 February 2014 (UTC)


I asked about this at the article talk page and WikiProject Palestine, no response. Maybe it's not a question Misplaced Pages can answer, but I'm curious and it would improve the article. ] (]) 09:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
: It looks like that watch has a ] beacon in it. Those certainly work, and are widely deployed in aviation, maritime (e.g. on lifeboats), and sometimes land use by people on foot in the wilderness or in ski/avalanche emergency beacons. You can find pocket-size ones (about the size of a packet of cigarettes) for a few hundred quid online (e.g. Amazon) - ''much'' less than the $16,000 Breitling. Given they can reduce it to that size, there's no reason to suppose the Breitling would be worse, although it doesn't have as much space for batteries. -- ]'''ჷ'''] 23:02, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
*It's acronym (or an abbreviation) for the four principles enumerated in the article. Like how the ] ''is'' the first ten amendments to the US Constitution. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 13:16, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
*:''Thawabit'' is short for ''alThawabit alWataniat alFilastinia'', the "Palestinian National Constants". ''Thawabit'' is the plural of '']'', "something permanent or invariable; constant". &nbsp;--] 13:36, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
*:What I'm saying is that I'm not sure the article is correct. The sourcing is thin, reference are paywalled, offline, or dead, and Google isn't helpful. Other scholarly and activist sources give different versions of the Thawabet, e.g. adds the release of Palestinian prisoners, adds that Palestine is indivisible. The article says that these principles were formulated by the PLO in 1977 but doesn't link to a primary source (like the Bill of Rights). I don't know if you're a subject matter expert here, I'm not--actually trying to figure this out. ] (]) 13:39, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
*::I was able to access the paywalled articles through the Misplaced Pages library, which adds a little more clarity. ] (]) 10:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)


:According to , a fifth principle was added in 2012: "the objection to recognize the State of Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people". However, I cannot find this in the &nbsp;--] 13:29, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
:: For example, (which someone on Amazon Marketplace will sell me for £246) has GPS (your location is encoded in the distress signal) and a bright emergency flashing light. As far as I can tell, the Breitling has neither. -- ]'''ჷ'''] 23:12, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
:::I checked the Arabic Misplaced Pages article before I responded above, and they list the same four principles. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 13:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
::::That appears to be a translation of the English article, so this doesn't mean much to me. ] (]) 13:44, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::I've poked around a little, and there doesn't appear to have been any change. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 13:59, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
::::::The list in the book I linked to above is not the same as that in our article. The book does not include a "right to resistance", but demands the release by Israel of all Palestinian prisoners. It would be good to have a sourced, authoritative version, in particular the actual 1977 formulation by the PLO. Of course, nothing is so changeable as political principles, so one should expect non-trivial amendments made in the course of time. &nbsp;--] 14:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::::That book is incorrect. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 21:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
::::::::How do you know? &nbsp;--] 00:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
::::The text does not explicitly say, "among others", but the use of {{lang|ar|بها بما في ذلك}} suggests that this list of four principles is not exhaustive. &nbsp;--] 00:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC)


= January 7 =
::::I wonder if the average LUT station is equipped and able to notice and decode that embedded GPS message. ] (]) 01:20, 9 February 2014 (UTC)


== Is there such a thing as a joke type index? ==
:::I see. So the signal gets to a satellite and operators are listening in those LUT stations.] (]) 23:40, 6 February 2014 (UTC)


:"Breitling has sold about 40,000 previous versions of the emergency watch, which has helped to save more than 20 people, Girardin said." ] (]) 18:16, 7 February 2014 (UTC) Has anyone produced an index of joke types and schemata (schemes?) along the lines of the ] for folk tales? More generally what kind of studies of the structure of jokes and humor are available? Has anyone come up with an A.I. that can generate new jokes? ] (]) 18:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
:For starters, there's ]. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 21:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
:AI generated jokes have been around for years. Just Google for it. They range from weird to meh. ]|] 10:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
:] made an attempt of sorts in his two joke collections, but it was kind of a half-assed approach: there are a bunch of indices printed on pages, but no key tying them together per se. His interest was in the core of the subject of the joke, so he might have said, for example, that ''these'' jokes were all based on unresolved Oedipal drives while ''those'' jokes were based on hatred of the mother (he was a capital "F" Freudian). The link Bugs shared is more about the formats of the jokes themselves, though some are also differentiated by their subject (albeit in a more superficial way than Legman attempted). ] (]) 21:15, 8 January 2025 (UTC)


:] has attempted to develop a theory of humour (as well as art and discovery), first in ''Insight and Outlook'' (1949) and slightly elaborated further in '']'' (1964). He did, however, not develop a typology of jokes. IMO ]'s ] presented in ''Semantic Mechanisms of Humor'' (1985) is essentially the same as Koestler's, but Raskin does not reference Koestler in the book. For an extensive overview of theories of humour see . &nbsp;--] 00:51, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
::Coincidentally, a friend of mine fell through a ] on a ridge, during a ] in the Scottish Highlands last week. After a long fall, he came to rest with a badly dislocated knee. It would have taken the rest of the party several hours to reach him, even if they could see where he had gone, but he was able to alert his emergency contact using a similar device and he was taken to hospital by helicopter. I'm not sure exactly which gizmo he used - I'll ask when he gets home. ] (]) 12:58, 8 February 2014 (UTC)


= February 7 = = January 8 =
== Wealth, Justice, and Superpowers ==


== ''The Nest'' magazine, UK, 1920s ==
If all people are equal before the law, why are rich countries more powerful than poor countries? For example, the reason why America is the superpower is because it is rich.
] (]) 03:35, 7 February 2014 (UTC)


I have a copy of {{cite book | title = The Grocer's Window Book | year = 1922 | location = London | publisher = The Nest Magazine }}, "arranged by The Editor of ''The Nest''". The address of ''The Nest'' Magazine is given as 15 Arthur Street, London, EC4. It contains suggestions for arranging window displays in an attractive manner to attract customers into independent grocer's shops. I would be interested to know more about ''The Nest''. I suspect it may have something to do with Nestles Milk, as 1) the back cover is a full-page advertisement for Nestles and Ideal Milk, and there are several other adverts for Nestles products in the book, and 2) one of the suggested window displays involves spelling out "IDEAL" with tins of Ideal Milk. Thank you, ] (]) 02:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
:In reality people are not equal before the law; rich people can afford the best lawyers, for example. Also, whereas national law is enforced by the state, international law does not always have such power behind it and if a strong state chooses to conquer a weaker one, then international law remains a scrap of paper with all the power that parchment possesses i.e. none. For example, the states of Europe (including Germany) were bound by treaty to preserve the independence and neutrality of Belgium. This piece of paper was incapable of preventing German troops from crossing the Belgian border. Only force persuaded the Germans to evacuate Belgium and it is force that really governs: it's the eternal law of nature. Wealthier countries can afford to equip their armed forces with more (and better) weaponry and are usually therefore more powerful than poorer states who cannot afford to successfully defend themselves. It's always been this way and will always be so.--] (]) 04:08, 7 February 2014 (UTC)


:{{Tq|Nest, 1922. M.—1st. 6d. Nestle and Anglo-Swiss Condensed Milk Co., 15 Arthur Street, E.c.4}} according to ''Willing's press guide and advertisers directory and handbook.'' I also found it in ''The Newspaper press directory and advertisers' guide,'' which merely confirms the address and the price of sixpence. Both of these were for the year 1922, which suggests to me that the magazine might not have survived into 1923. M signifies monthly, and 1st probably means published on the 1st of the month. ]&nbsp;] 19:37, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
"The law, in its majestic impartiality, forbids both rich and poor alike from sleeping under bridges"... --- ] (]) 08:27, 7 February 2014 (UTC)


== Historical U.S. population data by age (year 1968) ==
:I don't know about others but I see the question as a non-sequitor. The first half talks about people and the law but then the second is about countries and power. <span style="font-family:monospace;">]</span>|] 13:52, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
:: Furthermore, the minor premise is false. Is there any jurisdiction where all people are equal in law, even formally? —] (]) 22:23, 7 February 2014 (UTC)


In the year 1968, what percentage of the United States population was under 25 years old? I am wondering about this because I am watching the movie ], and want to know if a percentage claimed in the film was pulled out of a hat or was based in fact. ] (]) 04:17, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
For example, the reason why America is the superpower is because it is rich.
:What percentage did they give? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 05:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
::52% (it's on the movie poster). ]&nbsp;] 16:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
:Tabel No. 6 in the (p. 8) gives, for 1960, {{val|80093}} Kpeople age 0–24 on a total population of {{val|180007}} Kpeople, corresponding to 44.5%, and, for 1970, {{val|94095}} Kpeople age 0–24 on a total population of {{val|204265}} Kpeople, corresponding to 46.1%. Interpolation results in an estimate of 45.8% for 1968. &nbsp;--] 12:36, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
::{{small|Who are Kpeople? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 23:48, 9 January 2025 (UTC)}}
:::Reverse engineering and a spot of maths: k = kilo = 1 000 = 1 thousand. ] (]) 10:49, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
::::{{small|So, Kpeople means 1 thousandpeople. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 18:07, 10 January 2025 (UTC)}}


== Countries with greatest land mass ==
] (]) 21:51, 7 February 2014 (UTC)


Can someone please fill in these blanks? Thank you.
*I can't address ] or ] at length. But, as for superpowers, there are many explanations. Shin Hayata gained his superpowers when he was killed in an accidental collision with an alien who merged with him to become ]. Ka-El's powers as ] derive from the effect of our sun on a native of Krypton. Batman's superpowers are, in fact, a product of wealth and effort, rather than, say, ]s, which give the Jedi their power through The Force. Whatever the source of America's superpowers, they may have to do with ]. Other nations, like ], may have to look elsewhere. ] (]) 22:23, 7 February 2014 (UTC)


1. Currently, the USA ranks as number _____ among countries with the greatest land mass.
== Origin of surname ==


2. If the USA were to "annex" or "acquire" both Canada and Greenland, the USA would rank as number _____ among countries with the greatest land mass.
What is the origin of the surname Bagchi in Bengal region of Indian subcontinent.What is the history of this particular surname.Where from the people with this surname originate in ancient and medieval times.Who where their ancestors, where was their original homeland and what was their profession and what was their economic and social status.I want an answer in detail.```` <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 07:21, 7 February 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Is this a homework assignment? If you want a lot of detail, you should do your own research. Happy to get you started though: have a look at the articles about ] and ]. --] (]) 08:32, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
It is nothing to do with homework assignment.I just want to know out
of personal curiosity.I could not find much in the web.I wonder that you believe that this kind of things will be asked for homework.The two pages that you mentioned does not shed any light on my query.I expect that give your properly if you can and dont be arrogant.```` <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 10:22, 7 February 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:You're welcome! By the way, the article ] mentions the name, and has more detail—as I alluded to above, the Bagchis are Kulin Brahmans from Varendra. --] (]) 12:41, 7 February 2014 (UTC)


Thanks. ] (]) 05:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
== "It is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness" origin ==
:See ], which gives a nuanced answer to your first question, and the answer to your second question is obvious from the data in the article.-] (]) 05:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
:4 and 1. But the chance of Trump to annex Canada is close to zero. ] (]) 09:58, 10 January 2025 (UTC)


MSNBC has been using the phrase "It is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness" in it's promos recently, attributing it to ], but I'm not convinced this is the right source. It's also the motto of ] who say it's a "Chinese proverb" but this seems more suspect. One site says it's actually from ] (founder of Amnesty International) at a 1961 Human Rights Day ceremony, but AI's website also gives "Chinese proverb" as the source. Google also lists sites attributing it to ] and ]. Given all this conflicting information, what I am looking for is a source with some convincing evidence to back it up. It's possible that Kennedy, Benenson, and Stevenson all used the phrase in the early '60's, but did one of them actually make it up or were they all just quoting a phrase that was popular at the time? The problem I have the Chinese proverb source is that it's so difficult to verify; it's easy to say "There's an ancient Chinese saying that ..." when really it's something you just made up. It's the kind of thing the writers of Charlie Chan movies did all the time. Thanks in advance. --] (]) 11:11, 7 February 2014 (UTC)


= January 11 =
: mentions the proverb. Assuming the reprint is a faithful copy, it predates the Benenson usage by quite a way. <small>(As a child, I was always confused by this proverb, because I took it to mean "...than to wish bad things to happen to the darkness" rather than "...to blame the darkness", and lighting a candle seemed to me to be a way to wish bad things to happen to the darkness.)</small> ] (]) 12:23, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

: ] (]) 12:27, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

::Yes, Wiktionary acknowledges William Lonsdale Watkinson as the first recorded user of the expression in 1907, and that was the conclusion I came to when I researched it a few years ago, though we don't know whether he heard it from someone else. ] 13:39, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

:::There's a Biblical expression about not hiding one's lamp under a bushel, which would seem to be at least a cousin to the same idea. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 14:50, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
::::Thanks, the Watkinson quote in context is "But denunciatory rhetoric is so much easier and cheaper than good works, and proves a popular temptation. Yet is it far better to light the candle than to curse the darkness." Watkinson tends to use a lot of quotations in his work, some from the Bible and some only vaguely attributed, so it still seems likely that he was getting the expression from somewhere else. But at least we can dismiss the JFK nonsense. It seems more likely that The Christophers got it from the sermon than the Chinese, just speculation on my part though. --] (]) 15:41, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
:According to , it actually is a Chinese proverb, but probably derives from Western sources. Nobody seems to have traced it back further than Watkinson. ] (]) 17:18, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
::It says the Chinese attribute it to ], but since she postdates Watkinson, and from her bio it appears that she would likely have read Watkinson, it seems like she would have gotten it from him. It's interesting how the modern version has the slightly different meaning than Watkinson's. His meaning was more like "Don't sit around criticizing others when you can do something constructive." Now it's more "Don't complain about a problem if there's something you can do to fix it." --] (]) 23:10, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

== How do you plead? ==

In most English speaking countries, at least, an accused person is innocent until proven guilty, right? So how come they're required to plead either "Guilty" or "Not guilty" - which makes no mention of the default assumption of innocence - rather than either "Innocent" or "Guilty"? Verdicts are also rendered as either "Guilty" or "Not guilty". No mention of innocence there either.

Is "Not Guilty" qualitatively different from "Innocent"?

Another way of putting it is, why don't we say that a person is considered "not guilty" until proven "guilty"? Either way, why don't these two things match up? -- ] </sup></font></span>]] 11:56, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

:"Not guilty" is not perfectly synonymous with "innocent" - a person can be found "non guilty" for many reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with being innocent. A not guilty verdict can be due to insufficient evidence, investigator's misconduct, procedural errors, etc. The expression "freed/got away on a technicality" is commonly used in the media when someone who really did do the deed is found not guilty. Innocent on the other hand means the accused definitely did not do the deed - proving a negative can be extremely difficult if not impossible. ] (]) 13:04, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

:Scots Law also has the ] verdict, the history of which is relevant to your point. ] (]) 13:15, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

::Let's not confuse the plea with the verdict... defendants in Scotland do not ''plead'' "Not Proven". The ''plea'' is essentially a question... the judge is essentially asking the defendant: "Are you guilty?" To which the two appropriate answers are: "Yes, I am guilty" or "No, I am not guilty". ] (]) 14:01, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
:::{{small|If they're blootered they'll likely plead "not proven". ] (]) 18:58, 7 February 2014 (UTC)}}

:::The intermediate plea is ]... ] (]) 21:27, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

:One way I've heard it put is, a "not guilty" plea is not an actual assertion of factual innocence. It just says "I don't waive the requirement that the government prove its case before convicting me". --] (]) 19:32, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
::On a slight tangent, it is a very common misnomer that at law a person is "innocent until proven guilty", and it certainly does not help that the popular and constantly rerun American television show, ], has announced the expression this way ("all suspects are innocent until...") at the top of every show for the past 25 years. The actual doctrine is that a person is "<u>presumed</u> innocent until proved guilty." It might seem tacit but it leads to real misunderstandings by the public.--] (]) 23:38, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
:::Good point, Trovatore. Imagine a situation in which everyone knows that the defendant performed the illegal action in question: after a not-guilty plea and subsequent conviction, if "not guilty" were an assertion of innocence, a vengeful prosecutor might attempt to get an indictment for obstruction of justice ("you lied to the court!"), and that kind of thing would be a bigtime chilling effect. ] (]) 05:41, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

== What is the The Percy Anecdotes? ==

Is it kind of collection of stories? and if yes, what is it's genre? <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 12:20, 7 February 2014 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Where did you hear of it? ] (]) 12:23, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
:: , I want to know what kind of book is this?] (]) 13:04, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

:::From ]:'' 'a collection of "gobbets" suitable for social small-talk, or what in modern parlance would be a bluffer's guide to appearing well read'. '' See also ] ] (]) 13:13, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
::::Thank you all anyway... but I need more than extant information which available on Wiki...] (]) 14:51, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

== Percy's anecdotes and pay for Scottish soldiers ==

A question previously asked on the Ref Desk about "Percy's anecdotes," a collection of moral anecdotes from 1826. I found one volume of it at Google Books at but I have a question about "Scottish loyalty in the American war (Vol 2, 1826, p169 ff)" It says that patriotic nobles ruling Scotland, as well as Scottish tradesmen's associations, raised various regiments and companies to fight in the American Revolution, and the book praises them for giving (the Duke of Athol) not only two guineas to each recruit, but to "maintain the families, if they need support." This sounds like paying soldiers or their families during a war was an exception. Were the recruits not paid anything but the "two guineas" for their overseas service, likely of several years' duration? Did they get periodic pay in the field, where they might spend it on necessities or frolic, but were unlikely to be able to sending a draft of money back home? The ] was officially worth 21 shillings at the time of the American Revolution per the Misplaced Pages article, so the enlistment incentive of £2 2s in, say 1776 would amount to £239.00 today using the retail price index. or £3,020.00 using average earnings, per Measuring worth.com, which does not sound like it would support a family very long. What pay did Scottish (or British) soldiers in that war actually get during or after the conflict? Thanks. ] (]) 15:16, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
:How can i find the question in previous archives of Ref Desk? could you help me please?] (]) 15:59, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
:::The question is immediately above this one. The book can be read at the link provided. ] (]) 16:44, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::OH! yes! I had asked that one! and I thought there was another one asked before. :D ] (]) 17:19, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
::{{EC}} See the ], which was the daily pay (before living expenses) of a British soldier, so 42 shillings was six weeks' pay as a lump sum. I couldn't find information about civilian pay in Scotland, but (Table 5, page 17) says that the winter agricultural wage in the north of England in 1780 was 11 pence per day, a penny less than a shilling. ] (]) 16:12, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

:The conventional approach at the time was to pay soldiers in the field, though possibly at irregular intervals depending on the circumstances. In the late eighteenth century, it was unlikely they would send much if any of this money home, which is why Atholl's offer was seen as unusually generous. (Practically speaking, it might also incentivise married men to join up, which would have been unlikely otherwise - and the landowners would gain esteem and possible military command from the number of men they raised)
:The guinea (or two guineas) discussed would be the recruiting bounty, which was also common - it was not pay per se, but a single lump sum paid to a new recruit when they joined up. In some circumstances they'd drink it all, in others - especially if it was at a time of financial hardship - it might go to other family members. ] (]) 20:42, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

== Who was the first female Lutheran pastor? ==

I found that ] became the first woman Lutheran pastor in North America when ordained by the Lutheran Church in America in 1970, but the qualifier made me wonder who was the first female Lutheran pastor, period? In Europe, Asia, etc. The article about ] says she was ordained in Norway as a Lutheran pastor in 1961, but the article does not address the question of whether a woman was ordained previously as a Lutheran pastor somewhere besides Norway. It seems important enough to mention in Pastor Bjerkås' article if she was the first femal Lutheran minister to be ordained anywhere, as opposed to just in Norway. opposed to such ordination says (image 3, of page 90) "Norway permitted the first women pastors in 1938" but that seems to be permission from the government, rather than an ordination. It says "It was not until 1961, or twenty-three years after the law was passed, that a woman was ordained in Norway." It does not mention the name of Pastor Bjerkås. Is it synthesis to state that she was the world's first woman to be ordained a Lutheran pastor? says Bjerkås was "the first female Lutheran priest." Is that a sufficient source to make the claim in the Bjerkås article, or might they mean "the first in Norway?" ] (]) 17:20, 7 February 2014 (UTC)


:April 10th 1960 the first three women were ordained as priests of the Swedish Church, which is a Lutheran church. Elisabeth Djurle , Ingrid Persson and Margit Sahlin according to the article Ämbetsfrågan_i_Svenska_kyrkan in the Swedish wikipedia. I do not know about other countries, nor do I know anything about the difference between a pastor and a priest. ] (]) 19:42, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

::The article ] has a timeline stating the the "Lutheran Protestant Church" (which could be any Lutheran Church in any country) started ordaining women in 1947. It is unverified, since it uses as a reference a deadlink to an old article with no article name, author or date provided which one appeared in "Breaking News" in the Straits Times of Singapore, at http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/Singapore/Story/STIStory_634591.html I could not find it in their archives, nor could I find anything like it in Google News archive, either from February 2011 when it was added or from back in the 1940's. That Misplaced Pages article's timeline also says the Danish Lutheran Church started ordaining women in 1948. The Swedish and Norwegian churches '''authorized''' the ordinations years before one actually took place, so I wonder if that factor might be at work. Details are suspiciously lacking for the claimed 1947-1948 ordinations (no name, no city), compared to the details available for the ones from 1960 and 1961. ] (]) 00:04, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
:::The reference from the Straits Times is preserved . And, referring to your first question, ] was ordained in Austria in 1945 (, ). --] (]) 12:14, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

:::: The article Historik_kring_ämbetsfrågan_inom_Svenska_kyrkan names the three women ordained in Denmark on April 28th 1948: Johanne Andersen, Ruth Vermehren och Edith Brenneche-Petersen. It also mentions earlier female priests, but it is unclear to me whether these earlier were lutheran. ] (]) 20:05, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

== Orignin of surname Or Shahar ==

Can anyone give the meaning or origin of the surname ''Or Shahar'' / ''Orshahar''? Thanks. ] (]) 18:48, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

:If it's Hebrew, it could mean "light of the dawn", I guess (אור שחר)... -- ] (]) 21:24, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

::That's cool (I had assumed it was Hebrew). Is that literal, AnonMoos? Or in doubt (since you say "could mean")? Might it be a recently assumed name, or would it be one of long standing? The family I know of that bears it is Hasidic. ] (]) 22:50, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

:::If it comes from Hebrew and its Hebrew spelling is <big>אור שחר</big> (things which I was guessing about), then it unequivocally means "light of dawn". You can put <big>אור שחר</big> into Google... ] (]) 12:01, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

::<small>Hmm, "the light of dawn" ? Does that mean they're not too bright now, but hopefully will become so, as time passes ? :-) ] (]) 23:28, 7 February 2014 (UTC) </small>
::: <small> So, the answer to the question: ''O say can you see by the dawn's early light, What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming'' is "Nope. Someone hand me a hurricane lamp". :) -- ] </sup></font></span>]] 02:14, 8 February 2014 (UTC) </small>

::::Thanks, AnonMoos. I am coming to think I have to learn the Hebrew Alphabet. Does anybody have a self-teaching tool they can recommend? ] (]) 17:58, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

:The meaning of the Hebrew words is as above. This is a highly uncommon surname so evidently was chosen by the present bearers or their immediate forebears. The origin can't be known unequivocally but very likely follows one of the patterns of Hebraicizing a foreign surname from the Diaspora: (a) by meaning, (b) by sound, or (c) abridging. In this case, the original surname might have been (a) "Licht..." or "...licht," (b) a European place name with that string of consonants, (c) e.g. "Shcharansky" which ] chose to simplify thus from the Russian upon his emigration to Israel. Elements from nature are popular as given names or surnames. Also, the individual or family choosing a name, such as in your case, might prefer something unique to distinguish themselves. A survey of the most common surnames in Israel was led by "Tal" (HE: dew), an elegant Hebraic solution for the numerous Rosenthals, Braunthals, et al. ''<br>
:'''ETA''': ''Shachar'' is a fairly common surname (and given name), while ''Or Shachar'' as a surname is quite unique. It might benefit from hyphenization, though, as ''Or'' is a given name, usually masculine (the feminine being ''Ora'' or ''Orit''), and very likely there are individuals named "Or Shachar." ''-- ] (]) 06:35, 9 February 2014 (UTC)''

= February 8 =

== America, Republic and Empire ==

Is America an empire?

] (]) 03:42, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

:Read our article on ], and decide for yourself - it is a matter of opinion, and we don't answer requests for opinions. ] (]) 03:54, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

: See also ]. —] (]) 11:25, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

::] is a pretty decent article on the issues. The question is always what you mean by Empire. One can use the term to refer to a specific form of government and state organization; or one can use it metaphorically to describe how a state behaves towards other states. How you define your term determines what the answer to your question is. --]''''']''''' 17:23, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

:::And of course, don't forget that America did have an ] at one point. He even has a ] named after him. --]''''']''''' 17:32, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

:You may find the premise of '']'' interesting. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 18:14, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
America is an empire? America is not an empire. America is a republic. America has always been a republic. America is the world's oldest republic. America is a republic, not an empire.
Empires usually form from wars of conquest. But this is not how America was founded. America was founded by a war of independence, which is the opposite.

] (]) 01:39, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
:I'm not sure if you are asking a question or just trying to make a point of some sort, but perhaps you could read ] and ]. The US might not be the kind of empire you are thinking of, and it isn't a traditional one either, but these articles might help explain to to you why some might call it one anyway. ] (]) 02:08, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

:America was also founded by a series of many wars of conquest waged against Native Americans. However, it looks like you asked a question and then, after a few people replied, proceeded to answer it yourself. Why did you ask in the first place? ] (]) 08:16, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

::That's a hugely misleading or mistaken statement, Pfly. There certainly were wars, battles, and horrible ethnic cleansings at some points. Jackson was an evil man, and Custer got what he deserved. But almost the entirety of settlement was peaceful, and enabled by the fact that diseases and alcohol killed off the natives. And the natives were not always innocent either, or chose the wrong side in wars external to them. But don't let facts get in the way of POV. ] (]) 23:48, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

"America is the world's oldest republic." Not really. According to ] that San Marino is the oldest. Followed by the Netherlands, Switzerland and England. Of course only San Marino and Switzerland are still republics today. ] (]) 03:01, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

:The U.S. could be considered the oldest broadly-based democratic polity which was not a city-state or ministate, and currently has the oldest still-functioning constitution... ] (]) 06:53, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

== Environmental Impact of Christian Countries ==
{{hat|combine and close chat room questions}}
Most countries with large environmental impact, high per capita emission of carbon dioxide, high per capita consumption of energy and large ecological footprint are Christian countries. Most Christian countries have large environmental impact, high per capita emission of carbon dioxide, high per capita consumption of energy and large ecological footprint. Why? What do Christians think about it?

] (]) 03:51, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

:What is a Christian country? If you mean countries where there are more people claiming to be Christian than any other faith, that means they will hold the full cross section of views held in those countries. ] (]) 03:57, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

=== God Bless America's Environmental Impact ===
God Bless America? But what about America's large environmental impact, high per capita emission of carbon dioxide, high per capita consumption of energy and large ecological footprint?

] (]) 03:53, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
{{hab}}

== gay organized crime mafia? ==

how come nobody has written about the Gay organized crime mafia based out of san Francisco? My undrstanding is they are invovled in drug trafficking, sex trade, political extortion, just to mention a few. Yet they seem to stay iff the radar. Are they behind the rapid rise in gay rights? Is this why other countries that have strong mafia's are becoming very anti-gay? To protect thier economic interests? Please help sort out this debate] (]) 07:26, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
:Amazingly, there is a ] article. Apparently is a pejorative term for gay rights groups. There is also a conspiracy theory that proposed the term ]. Regarding you assumption of 'rapid rise in gay rights', I can assure you that it's was not fast. Gay rights activists have been active defending gay marriage since the sixties or earlier. Before that, there was the decriminalization of homosexuality and anti-discrimination legislation. It was a long road to them. ] (]) 17:47, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

== "Marriage is promised" What does it mean ==
{{formerly|Query}}
"Marriage is promised" What does it mean <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 11:50, 8 February 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:That would depend a lot on the context. Where did you see this? You might be interested in ] but that's just a guess. <span style="font-family:monospace;">]</span>|] 16:54, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

:If marriage is promised but does not take place, that can be ]... ] (]) 17:21, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

:It's expressed in the ], if that helps. It means that somebody, or perhaps something, promises marriage. - ] ]

== What lies ahead? request for horoscope) ==
{{formerly|What lies ahead?}}
{{hat|we explicitly do not do prediction, see the top of the page}}
My date of birth is 10th September 1983 according to Gregarian calender.Time of birth is 09:55 a.m. in Indian Standard Time.Location
approximately 22.54 degrees North Latitude and 88.35 degrees East Longitude.Can someone predict how my prospective wife will look like,what kind of person she will be and how will be my married life.
Can you give any idea about who can be my prospective wife.Please predict based on Vedic Astrology and Western Astrology.] (]) 11:59, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
{{hab}}
: Note this question has been cross-posted on ], where it has been replied to. -- ]'''ჷ'''] 15:12, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

== Looking for books ==
Books about people who wanted to live without being loved or loving somebody.

] (]) 14:58, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
:], ]. Doesn't always work out as planned. ] (]) 17:46, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

:I don't have a book for you (though '''' is blatantly implicit), but I have one word that might help you look: ]. ] ] 19:45, ], ] (UTC)

:Good search terms might include ] and maybe ], though that only precludes sexual relationships. For example, there is a non-fiction book titled ''The Asocial Networking'' by Dhiraj Kumar. ] (]) 01:06, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
::If you want fiction, the '']'' series may well count: ], the chief antagonist, doesn't trust anyone, doesn't want to trust anyone, and rejects the concept of love as something that's essentially a weakness. ] (]) 04:29, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
::If you want bloodier, sexier pop fiction '']'' has many characters like that. Bastards seeking honour, kings seeking fear, corpses seeking nothingness, girls seeking anonymity, wildlings seeking absolute freedom, eunuchs seeking...something, no doubt. ] ] 05:51, ], ] (UTC)

== Trade Unionism in Banking in India ==

Hi, I am looking for information about "Trade Unionism in Banking in India". Can any one help me to get the information. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 18:30, 8 February 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:You asked this a few days ago (at least, I assume it was you). A link to the archived question is ]. -] ] 18:52, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

= February 9 =

== Woodrow Wilson ==

Having come to familiarize myself with American conservatism, I'm wondering why Woodrow Wilson seems to be a target of it. I already have my reasons for disliking him, but what is it that makes him particularly noxious to conservatives? — ] ] 05:19, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
:Well, look, first of all, the things that make him unlikable to the contemporary center-left (like the Klan stuff) are not particularly approved by the contemporary center-right, either. So pretty much today's whole mainstream spectrum is against him on those things. But the center-right also doesn't like him as a symbol of so-called "progressivism". He's one of those guys who just can't win. --] (]) 05:26, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
::Didn't some conservatives also dislike him due to his support for interventionism in foreign affairs, including in Europe? After all, some/many conservatives in the U.S. between c.1919 and c.1941 were not particularly fond of the ] (into which Wilson unsuccessfully tried to have the U.S. enter). ] (]) 08:48, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

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December 28

Truncated Indian map in Misplaced Pages

Why is the map of India always appears truncated in all of Misplaced Pages pages, when there is no official annexing of Indian territories in Kashmir, by Pakistan and China nor its confirmation from Indian govt ? With Pakistan and China just claiming the territory, why the world map shows it as annexed by them, separating from India ? TravelLover05 (talk) 15:05, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

The map at India shows Kashmir in light green, meaning "claimed but not controlled". It's not truncated, it's differently included.  Card Zero  (talk) 17:17, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
Please see no 6 in Talk:India/FAQ ColinFine (talk) 20:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

December 29

Set animal's name = sha?

"In ancient Egyptian art, the Set animal, or sha," - this seems like a major citation needed. Any help? Temerarius (talk) 00:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Which article does that appear in? ←Baseball Bugs carrots01:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
It must be this article. Omidinist (talk) 04:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
That term was in the original version of the article, written 15 years ago by an editor named "P Aculeius" who is still active. Maybe the OP could ask that user about it? ←Baseball Bugs carrots05:00, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
  • Each time, the word šꜣ is written over the Seth-animal.
  • Sometimes the animal is designated as sha (šꜣ) , but we are not certain at all whether this designation was its name.
  • When referring to the ancient Egyptian terminology, the so-called sha-animal, as depicted and mentioned in the Middle Kingdom tombs of Beni Hasan, together with other fantastic creatures of the desert and including the griffin, closely resembles the Seth animal.
  • šꜣ ‘Seth-animal’
  • He claims that the domestic pig is called “sha,” the name of the Set-animal.
Wiktionary gives šꜣ as meaning "wild pig", not mentioning use in connection with depictions of the Seth-animal. The hieroglyphs shown for šꜣ do not resemble those in the article Set animal, which instead are listed as ideograms in (or for) stẖ, the proper noun Seth.  --Lambiam 08:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
Thank you! The reason I brought it up was because the hieroglyph for the set animal didn't have the sound value to match in jsesh.
Temerarius (talk) 22:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
SAAE12
 
E12
The word sha (accompanying
depictions of the Set animal)
in hieroglyphs
IMO they should be removed, or, if this can be sourced, be replaced by one or more of the following two:  --Lambiam 09:49, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
Budge's original drawing and second version of PharaohCrab's drawing; the original looked very different, and this one is clearly based on Budge's as traced by me in 2009, but without attribution.
The article—originally "Sha (animal)" was one of the first I wrote, or attempted to write, and was based on and built on the identification by E. A. Wallis Budge, in The Gods of the Egyptians, which uses the hieroglyph
M8
for the word "sha", and includes the illustration that I traced from a scan and uploaded to Commons (and which was included in the article from the time of its creation in 2009 until December 21, 2024 when User:PharaohCrab replaced it with his original version of the one shown above; see its history for what it looked like until yesterday). I have had very little to do with the article since User:Sonjaaa made substantial changes and moved it to "Seth animal" in 2010; although it's stayed on my watchlist, I long since stopped trying to interfere with it, as it seemed to me that other editors were determined to change it to the way they thought it should be, and I wasn't sophisticated enough to intervene or advocate effectively for my opinions. In fact the only edit by me I can see after that was fixing a typo.
As for the word sha, that is what Budge called it, based on the hieroglyph associated with it; I was writing about this specific creature, which according to Budge and some of the other sources quoted above has some degree of independence from Set, as it sometimes appears without him and is used as the determinative of one or two other deities, whose totemic animal it might also have been. One of the other scholars quoted above questions whether the word sha is the name of the animal, but still associates the word with the animal: Herman Te Velde's article, "Egyptian Hieroglyphs as Signs Symbols and Gods", quoted above, uses slightly modified versions of Budge's illustrations; his book Seth, God of Confusion is also quoted above, both with the transliteration šꜣ, which in "Egyptian Hieroglyphs" he also renders sha. Percy Newberry is the source cited by the Henry Thompson quotation above, claiming that sha referred to a domestic pig as well as the Set animal, and a different god distinct from Set, though sharing the same attributes (claims of which Thompson seems skeptical). Herman Te Velde also cites Newberry, though he offers a different explanation for the meaning of "sha" as "destiny". All Things Ancient Egypt, also quoted above, calls the animal "the so-called sha-animal", while Classification from Antiquity to Modern Times just uses šꜣ and "Seth-animal".
I'm not certain what the question here is; that the hieroglyph transliterated sha is somehow associated with the creature seems to have a clear scholarly consensus; most of the scholars use it as the name of the creature; Herman Te Velde is the only one who suggests that it might not be its name, though he doesn't conclude whether it is or isn't; and one general source says in passing "so-called sha-animal", which accepts that this is what it's typically referred to in scholarship, without endorsing it. Although Newberry made the connection with pigs, none of the sources seems to write the name with pig hieroglyphs as depicted above. Could you be clearer about what it is that's being discussed here? P Aculeius (talk) 16:47, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
things that start with sh
I asked because I couldn't find it in Gardiner (jsesh, no match when searching by sound value) or Budge (dictionary vol II.)
Temerarius (talk) 05:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

December 30

I do not say the Frenchman will not come. I only say he will not come by sea.

1. What is the ultimate source of this famous 1803 quote by John Jervis (1735 – 1823), 1st Earl of St Vincent, First Lord of the Admiralty at the time. I googled Books and no source is ever given except possibly another collection of quotations. The closest I got was: "At a parley in London while First Lord of the Admiralty 1803". That's just not good enough. Surely there must be someone who put this anecdote in writing for the first time.

2. Wouldn't you say this use of the simple present in English is not longer current in contemporary English, and that the modern equivalent would use present continuous forms "I'm not saying... I'm only saying..." (unless Lord Jervis meant to say he was in the habit of saying this; incidentally I do realize this should go to the Language Desk but I hope it's ok just this once)

178.51.7.23 (talk) 11:47, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Assuming he's talking about England, does he propose building a bridge over the Channel? ←Baseball Bugs carrots12:13, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
How about a tunnel? --Wrongfilter (talk) 12:29, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
It's a joke. He's saying that the French won't invade under any circumstances (see English understatement). Alansplodge (talk) 20:30, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
The First Lord of the Admiralty wouldn't be the one stopping them if the French came by tunnel (proposed in 1802) or air (the French did have hot air balloons). Any decent military officer would understand that an invasion by tunnel or balloon would have no chance of success, but this fear caused some English opposition against the Channel Tunnel for the next 150 years. Just hinting at the possibility of invasion by tunnel amongst military officers would be considered a joke.
Unless he was insulting the British Army (no, now I'm joking). PiusImpavidus (talk) 10:30, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
The quoted wording varies somewhat. Our article John Jervis, 1st Earl of St Vincent has it as "I do not say, my Lords, that the French will not come. I say only they will not come by sea" in an 1801 letter to the Board of Admiralty, cited to Andidora, Ronald (2000). Iron Admirals: Naval Leadership in the Twentieth Century. Greenwood Publishing Group. p. 3. ISBN 978-0-313-31266-3.. Our article British anti-invasion preparations of 1803–05 has Jervis telling the House of Lords "I do not say the French cannot come, I only say they cannot come by sea", and then immediately, and without citation, saying it was more probably Keith. I can't say I've ever seen it attributed to Keith anywhere else. DuncanHill (talk) 13:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
Hmm, Andidora does not in fact say it was in a letter to the Board of Admiralty, nor does he explicitly say 1801. And his source, The Age of Nelson by G J Marcus has it as Jervis telling the House of Lords sometime during the scare of '03-'05. Marcus doesn't give a source. DuncanHill (talk) 13:52, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
Robert Southey was attributing it to Lord St Vincent as early as 1806, and while I don't want to put too much weight on his phrase "used to say" it does at any rate raise the possibility that St Vincent said (or wrote) it more than once. Perhaps Marcus and our St Vincent article are both right. --Antiquary (talk) 16:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
Interesting. Thanks. Some modern accounts (not Southey apparently) claim Lord St Vincent was speaking in the House of Lords. If that was the case, wouldn't it be found in the parliamentary record? How far back does the parliamentary record go for the House of Commons and/or the House of Lords. 178.51.7.23 (talk) 17:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
As for (2), the tense is still alive and kicking, if I do say so myself. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:12, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
You don't say? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.223.204 (talk) 02:47, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
This is not what I am asking. 178.51.7.23 (talk) 05:05, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
Then I will answer you more directly. You are wrong: while the usage you quote is less common than it once was, it is still current, according to my experience as a native BrE speaker for over 65 years. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.223.204 (talk) 13:32, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
I kid you not.  --Lambiam 23:47, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

What percentage of Ancient Greek literature was preserved?

Has anyone seen an estimate of what percentage of Ancient Greek literature (broadly understood: literature proper, poetry, mathematics, philosophy, history, science, etc.) was preserved. It doesn't matter how you define "Ancient Greek literature", or if you mean the works available in 100 BC or 1 AD or 100 AD or 200 AD... Works were lost even in antiquity. I'm just trying to get a rough idea and was wondering if anyone ever tried to work out an estimate. 178.51.7.23 (talk) 17:58, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't have an answer handy for you at the moment, but I can tell you that people have tried to work out an estimate for this, at least from the perspective of "how many manuscripts containing such literature managed to survive past the early Middle Ages". We've worked this one out, with many caveats, by comparing library catalogues from very early monasteries to known survivals and estimating the loss rate. -- asilvering (talk) 20:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
One estimate is (less than) one percent. --Askedonty (talk) 20:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
We have a Lost literary work article with a large "Antiquity" section. AnonMoos (talk) 21:15, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
These are works known to have existed, because they were mentioned and sometimes even quoted in works that have survived. These known lost works are probably only a small fraction of all that have been lost.  --Lambiam 23:35, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
Few things which might be helpful:
  1. So profuse was Galen's output that the surviving texts represent nearly half of all the extant literature from ancient Greece.
  2. Although not just Greek, but only 1% of ancient literature survives. --ExclusiveEditor 🔔 Ping Me! 11:12, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
The following quantities are known: S , {\displaystyle S,} the number of preserved works, L , {\displaystyle L,} the (unknown) number of lost works, and M L , {\displaystyle M_{L},} the number of lost works of which we know, through mentions in preserved works. In a (very) naive model, let μ {\displaystyle \mu } stand for the probability that a given work (lost or preserved) is mentioned in some other preserved work (so M L = μ L {\displaystyle M_{L}=\mu L} ). The expected number of mentions of preserved works in other preserved works is then M S = μ ( S 1 ) . {\displaystyle M_{S}=\mu (S-1).} If we have the numerical value of the latter quantity (which is theoretically obtainable by scanning all preserved works), we can obtain an estimate for μ {\displaystyle \mu } and compute L M L M S ( S 1 ) . {\displaystyle L\approx {\frac {M_{L}}{M_{S}}}(S-1).}
 --Lambiam 13:09, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
  • Even without seeing any professional estimate of the kind I'm asking about here, my ballpark figure was that it had to be less than 1 percent, simply from noting how little of even the most celebrated and important authors has been preserved (e.g. about 5 percent for Sophocles) and how there are hundreds of authors and hundreds of works for which we only have the titles and maybe a few quotes, not to mention all those works of which we have not an inkling, the number of which it is, for this very reason, extremely hard to estimate.
  • But as a corollary to my first question I have another three:
  • 1. Has any modern historian tackled this paradox, namely the enormous influence that the culture of the Ancient World has had on the West while at the same time how little we actually know about that culture, and as a consequence the problem that we seem to believe that we know much more than we actually do? in other words that our image of it that has had this influence on Western culture might be to some extent a modern creation and might be very different of what it actually was?
  • 2. I understand that in this regard there can be the opposite opinion (or we can call it a hypothesis, or an article of faith) which is the one that is commonly held (at least implicitly): that despite all that was lost the main features of our knowledge of the culture of the Ancient World are secure and that no lost work is likely to have modified the fundamentals? Like I said this seems to be the position that is commonly implicitly held, but I'm interested to hear if any historian has discussed this question and defended this position explicitly in a principled way?
  • 3. Finally to what extent is the position mentioned in point 2 simply a result of ignorance (people not being aware of how much was lost)? How widespread is (in the West) the knowledge of how much was lost? How has that awareness developed in the West, both at the level of the experts and that of the culture in general, since say the 15th century? Have you encountered any discussions of these points?

178.51.7.23 (talk) 08:40, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

The issues touched upon are major topics in historiography as well as the philosophy of history, not only for the Ancient (Classical) World but for all historical study. Traditionally, historians have concentrated on the culture of the high and mighty. The imprint on the historical record by hoi polloi is much more difficult to detect, except in the rare instances where they rose up, so what we think of as "the" culture of any society is that of a happy few. Note also that "the culture of the Ancient World" covers a period of more than ten centuries, in which kingdoms and empires rose and fell, states and colonies were founded and conquered, in an endless successions of wars and intrigues. On almost any philosophical issue imaginable, including natural philosophy, ancient philosophers have held contrary views. It is not clear how to define "the" culture of the Ancient World, and neither is it clear how to define the degree to which this culture has influenced modern Western society. It may be argued that the influence of say Plato or Sophocles has largely remained confined to an upper crust. I think historians studying this are well aware of the limitations of their source material, including the fact that history is written by the victors.  --Lambiam 13:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
178.51.7.23 -- Think of it this way: What did it mean to "publish" something in the ancient world? You had at least one written manuscript of your work -- rarely more than a handful of such manuscripts. You could show what you had written to your friends, have it delivered to influential people, bequeath it to your heirs, or donate it to an archive or research collection (almost none of which were meaningfully public libraries in the modern sense of that phrase). However you chose to do it, once you were gone, the perpetuation of your work depended on other people having enough interest in it to do the laborious work of copying the manuscript, or being willing to pay to have a copy made. Works of literature which did not interest other people enough to copy manuscripts of it were almost always eventually lost, which ensured that a lot of tedious and worthless stuff was filtered out. Of course, pagan literary connoisseurs, Christian monks, Syriac and Arabic translators seeking Greek knowledge, and Renaissance Humanists all had different ideas of what was worth preserving, but between them, they ensured that a lot of interesting or engaging or informative works ended up surviving from ancient times. I'm sure that a number of worthy books still slipped through the gaps, but some losses were very natural and to be expected; for example, some linguists really wish that Claudius's book on the Etruscan language had survived, but it's not surprising that it didn't, since it would not have generally interested ancient, medieval, or renaissance literate people in the same way it would interest modern scholars struggling with Etruscan inscriptions.
By the way, college bookstores on or near campuses of universities which had a Classics program sometimes used to have a small section devoted to the small green-backed (Greek) and red-backed (Latin) volumes of the Loeb Classical Library, and you could get an idea of what survived from ancient times (and isn't very obscure or fragmentary) by perusing the shelves... AnonMoos (talk) 01:03, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
Indeed - at the other end of the scale, the Description of Greece by Pausanias seems to have survived into the Middle Ages in a single MS (now of course lost), and there are no ancient references to either it or him known. Since the Renaissance it has been continuously in print. Johnbod (talk) 03:00, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

References

  1. Galen's article
  2. https://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog/2009/10/26/reference-for-the-claim-that-only-1-of-ancient-literature-survives/

December 31

Was the fictional character "The Jackal" (as played by Edward Fox and Bruce Willis) based on Carlos The Jackal?

Talking about the fictional assassin from the books and films. I once read somewhere that the real Carlos The Jackal didn't like being compared to the fictional character, because he said he was a professional Marxist revolutionary, not merely a hitman for hire to the highest bidder (not in the article about him at the moment, so maybe not true). 146.90.140.99 (talk) 02:47, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

No, the character wasn't based on Carlos. The films are based on the 1971 historical fiction novel The Day of the Jackal by Frederick Forsyth, which begins with a fairly accurate account of the actual 1962 assassination attempt on Charles de Gaulle by the French Air Force lieutenant colonel Jean Bastien-Thiry, which failed. Subsequently in the fictional plot the terrorists hire an unnamed English professional hitman whom they give the codename 'The Jackal'.
Carlos the Jackal was a Venezuelan terrorist named Ilich Ramírez Sánchez operating in the 1970s and '80s. He was given the cover name 'Carlos' when in 1971 he joined the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. When authorities found some of his weapons stashed in a friend's house, a copy of Forsyth's novel was noticed on his friend's bookshelf, and a Guardian journalist then invented the nickname, as journalists are wont to do. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.223.204 (talk) 03:15, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
There's also the fictionalised Ilich Ramírez Sánchez / Carlos the Jackal from the Jason Bourne novels. PiusImpavidus (talk) 10:44, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

References

I am on to creating an article on Lu Chun  soon. If anyone has got references about him other than those on google, it would be great if you could share them here. Thanks, ExclusiveEditor 🔔 Ping Me! 11:20, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Did you try the National Central Library of Taiwan? The library has a lot of collection about history of Tang dynasty. If you want to write a research paper for publication purpose, you need to know what have been written by others. Then the National Digital Library of Theses and Dissertation in Taiwan under the central library can be a good starting point. Stanleykswong (talk) 09:16, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Battle of the Granicus

This month some news broke about identification of the Battle of the Granicus site, stating in particular: "Professor Reyhan Korpe, a historian from Çanakkale Onsekiz Mart University (ÇOMÜ) and Scientific Advisor to the “Alexander the Great Cultural Route” project, led the team that uncovered the battlefield". However, per Battle of the Granicus#Location it seems that the exact site has been known since at least Hammond's 1980 article. Am I reading the news correctly that what Korpe's team actually did was mapping Alexander’s journey to the Granicus rather than identifying the battle site per se? Per news, "Starting from Özbek village, Alexander’s army moved through Umurbey and Lapseki before descending into the Biga Plain". Brandmeister 23:38, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

If Körpe and his team wrote a paper about their discovery, I haven't found it, so I can only go by news articles reporting on their findings. Apparently, Körpe gave a presentation at the Çanakkale Provincial Directorate of Culture and Tourism for an audience of local mayors and district governors, and I think the news reports reflect what he said there. Obviously, the presentation was in Turkish. Turkish news sources, based on an item provided by DHA, quote him as saying, "Bölgede yaptığımız araştırmalarda antik kaynakları da çok dikkatli okuyarak, yorumlayarak savaşın aşağı yukarı tam olarak nerede olduğunu, hangi köyler arasında olduğunu, ovanın tam olarak neresinde olduğunu bulduk." Google Translate turns this into, "During our research in the region, by reading and interpreting ancient sources very carefully, we found out more or less exactly where the war took place, which villages it took place between, and where exactly on the plain it took place." I cannot reconcile "more or less" with "exactly".
The news reports do not reveal the location identified by Körpe, who is certainly aware of Hammond's theory, since he cited the latter's 1980 article in earlier publications. One possibility is that the claim will turn out to have been able to confirm Hammond's theory definitively. Another possibility is that the location they identified is not "more or less exactly" the same as that of Hammond's theory.  --Lambiam 02:08, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

January 1

Has there ever been an incident of a serial killer murdering another serial killer?

Question as topic. Has this ever happened outside of the movies? 146.90.140.99 (talk) 05:30, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

This is an interesting question. Just because you can't find any incident, doesn't mean this kind of case never happened (type II error). Stanleykswong (talk) 09:57, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
Apparently yes: Dean Corll was killed by one of his his accomplices, Elmer Wayne Henley. --Antiquary (talk) 12:13, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
Of course it would be more notable if the two were not connected to each other. --142.112.149.206 (talk) 08:22, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
If you're including underworld figures, this happens not infrequently. As an Aussie, a case that springs to mind was Andrew Veniamin murdering Victor Pierce. Both underworld serial murderers. I'm sure there are many similar cases in organised crime. Eliyohub (talk) 08:40, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
Aren't hired killers distinct from the usual concept of a serial killer? ←Baseball Bugs carrots09:11, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
Outside the movies? Sure, on TV. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:09, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
The Dexter character from the multiple Dexter series is based on Pedro Rodrigues Filho, who killed criminals, including murderers. It is necessary to decide how many merders each of those murders did in order to decide if you would want to classify them as serial killers or just general murderers. 68.187.174.155 (talk) 19:04, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
It sounds like the Death Wish (1974 film) film series might have also drawn inspiration from Filho. ←Baseball Bugs carrots03:24, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Another serial killer question

about 20 years ago, I saw a documentary where it was said that the majority of serial killers kill for sexual gratification, or for some sort of revenge against their upbringing, or because in their head that God (or someone else) told them to kill. But the FBI agent on the documentary said something about how their worst nightmare was an extremely intelligent, methodical killer who was doing what he did to make some sort of grand statement about society/political statement. That this sort of killer was one step ahead of law enforcement and knew all of their methods. Like a Hannibal Lecter type individual. He said that he could count on the fingers of one hand the sort of person who he was talking about, but that these killers were the most difficult of all to catch and by far the most dangerous. Can you tell me any examples of these killers? 146.90.140.99 (talk) 05:49, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Ted Kaczynski ("the Unabomber") comes to mind. --142.112.149.206 (talk) 07:06, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
I second this. Ted the Unabomber only got finally caught by chance, only after his brother happened to recognise him. Eliyohub (talk) 08:43, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
More than a few killed for money; Michael Swango apparently just for joy. The case of Leopold and Loeb comes to mind, who hoped to demonstrate superior intellect; if they had not bungled their first killing despite spending seven months planning everything, more would surely have followed.  --Lambiam 15:09, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
Joseph Paul Franklin. Prezbo (talk) 13:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Missing fire of London

British Movietone News covered the burning down of the Crystal Palace in this somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but apparently factual, film. At 00:15 it refers to 'the biggest London blaze since 1892'. What happened in 1892 that could be considered comparable to the Palace's demise, or at least sufficiently well-known to be referred to without further explanation?

I can see nothing in History of London, List of town and city fires, List of fires or 1892. The London Fire Journal records "May 8, 1892 - Scott's Oyster Bar, Coventry Street. 4 dead.", but also lists later fires with larger death tolls. Does anyone have access to the Journal of the Royal Statistical Society's article Fires in London and the Metropolitan Fire Brigade in 1892? -- Verbarson  edits 13:48, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

I see the Great Fire of 1892 destroyed half the capital of Newfoundland and Labrador. But comparing that to the Crystal Palace fire, which destroyed only the Crystal Palace, is an odd choice.  Card Zero  (talk) 14:45, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
It would also be odd to call it a "London blaze".  --Lambiam 15:15, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
The closest I found was the 1861 Tooley Street fire. Alansplodge (talk) 16:30, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
Also a large fire at Wood Street in the City in 1882 (perhaps later mistaken for 1892?). Alansplodge (talk) 16:40, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
I too wonder whether the Movietone newsreader was the victim of a typo. In December 1897 Cripplegate suffered "the greatest fire...that has occurred in the City since the Great Fire of 1666". . --Antiquary (talk) 11:46, 2 January 2025 (UTC) That's also mentioned, I now see, in Verbarson's London Fire Journal link. --Antiquary (talk) 12:24, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
@Verbarson: Fires in London and the Metropolitan Fire Brigade in 1892 is available on JSTOR as part of the Misplaced Pages Library. It doesn't give details of any individual fires. DuncanHill (talk) 16:51, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
@DuncanHill:, so it is. The DOI link in that article is broken; I should have been more persistent with the JSTOR search. Thank you. -- Verbarson  edits 17:15, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
Unexpectedly, from the Portland Guardian (that's Portland, Victoria): GREAT FIRE IN LIONDON. A great fire is raging in the heart of the London ducks. Dated 26 November 1892.  Card Zero  (talk) 07:02, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
Oh, the poor ducks.  --Lambiam 12:05, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
The whole OCR transcript of that blurred newspaper column is hilarious. "The fames have obtained a firm bold", indeed! {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.84.253 (talk) 12:07, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
Setting aside the unsung history of the passionate ducks of London, what I see in that clipping is:
  • 1892 - Australia is still a colony (18+ years to go)
  • which is linked to the UK by (i) long-distance shipping, and (ii) telegraph cables
  • because of (i), the London docks are economically important
  • because of (ii), they get daily updates from London
Therefore, the state of the London docks (and the possible fate of the Australian ships there) is of greater importance to Australian merchants than it is to most Londoners. So headlines in Portland may not reflect the lesser priority of that news in the UK? -- Verbarson  edits 17:15, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
Yes, I was highly impressed by the rapidity of the Victorian Victorian telegraph system there. But my money's on Antiquary's theory, above - I think the newsreel announcer's script had 1892 as a typo for 1897.  Card Zero  (talk) 18:31, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
Which I have finally found (in WP) at Timeline of London (19th century)#1890 to 1899 (using the same cite as Antiquary). It does look persuasively big ("The Greatest Fire of Modern Times" - Star), though there were no fatalities. Despite that, an inquest was held. It sounds much more likely than the docks fire to have been memorable in 1936. -- Verbarson  edits 19:26, 2 January 2025 (UTC)


January 4

Could the Sack of Jericho be almost

historical in the sense that the story of what happened, happened to a different city but was transferred to Jericho?Rich (talk) 05:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

It might be. But then again, it might not be. Following whatever links there are to the subject within the article might be a good start for finding out about whatever theories there might be. ←Baseball Bugs carrots07:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
To believe that the events in the story are historical, whether for Jericho or another city, amounts to believing in a miracle. Barring miracles, no amount of horn-blowing and shouting can bring defensive walls down.
Jericho was destroyed in the 16th century BCE. The first version of the Book of Joshua was written in the late 7th century BCE, so there are 9 centuries between the destruction and the recording of the story. An orally transmitted account, passed on through some thirty generations, might have undergone considerable changes, turning a conquest with conventional war practices, possibly with sound effects meant to install fear in the besieged, into a miraculous event.  --Lambiam 10:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
The sack was described in the Book of Joshua, which however was likely compiled around 640–540 BCE, some six or seven centuries after the supposed Hebrew conquest of Canaan. Some scholars now discount the whole Exodus and Conquest narrative as political lobbying written by Jewish exiles in Babylonia (which the Persians later took over) hoping to be given control over the former territory of Israel as well as being restored to their native Judah.
The narrative logically explains why a people once 'Egyptian slaves' (like all subjects of the Pharoah) were later free in Canaan, but by then it was likely forgotten that Egypt once controlled almost the entirety of Canaan, from which it withdrew in the Late Bronze Age Collapse. The Hebrew peoples of the (always separate) states of Israel and Judah emerged from Canaanite culture in situ, though minor folk movements (for example, of the Tribe of Levi, who often had Egyptian names) may have had a role. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.84.253 (talk) 10:52, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
I heard the sack of Jericho in book of Joshua was an explanatory myth, not some kind of Exile claim to ownership, which is more logical anyway. If there were a more recent city that was sacked, it would be less than the estimate of 30 geneations of remembrance. I did forget to stress that when I asked if the story could be almost historical that I wasn't suggesting that Jericho's walls were supernaturally destroyed by trumpets. After all, the actual method of conquest in the story could be the connivance of the traitor Rahab.Rich (talk) 02:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Oh, certainly the myth likely existed before it was consolidated with others into the written documents, just as stories about the mythical Danel may have been adapted into the fictional Daniel of the supposedly contemporary Book of Daniel describing his exploits in the 6th century BCE court of Nebuchadnezzar II, although scholars generally agree that this was actually written in the period 167–163 BCE. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.84.253 (talk) 07:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
The Israelites partly emerged in situ (though there was also a definite nomad/pastoralist component), especially along the West Bank hill-chain (running in an approximate north-south direction) where the Four-room house took hold among the rural inhabitants there. They were not originally city-dwellers, and their culture could not have been consolidated until the power of the Canaanite cities in that area had declined, and it's not too hard to believe that they sometimes moved against what cities remained, so that part of the conquest narrative is not necessarily a pure myth. Jericho was in the valley (not along the hill-chain), so was not part of the core settled rural agricultural four-room house area, but was inhabited more by pastoralists/animal-herders who became affiliated... AnonMoos (talk) 21:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Accessibility, for URLs in text document

We've been asked to increase the accessibility of all documents we produce, esp. syllabi. I use WordPerfect, where I don't seem to be able to have a URL with a descriptive text in the way Word allows. 508 is the operative term. I'm trying this out: "Princeton University has some handy tips on what is called “active reading, on this webpage: https://mcgraw.princeton.edu/active-reading-strategies." In other words, descriptive text followed by a bare URL. Is that good for screen readers? Graham87, how does this look/sound to you? Thanks for your help, Drmies (talk) 18:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

@Drmies: I wouldn't make a general rule about that as it's context-dependent ... depending on how many URL's are in a document, reading them might get annoying. In general I'd prefer to read a link with descriptive text rather than a raw URL, because the latter aren't always very human-readable ... but I don't think this is really an accessibility issue; just do what would make sense for a sighted reader here. Graham87 (talk) 00:34, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Graham87, thanks. There's only one or two in a ten-page document. According to our bosses, this is an accessibility issue--but it seems to me as if someone sounded an alarm and now everyone who doesn't actually know much about the issue is telling us to comply with a set of directives which they haven't given us. Instead, we are directed to some self-help course that involves only Word. It's fun. Drmies (talk) 15:34, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Stop using WordPerfect and start using Word. --Viennese Waltz 07:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
I don't know why, but it seems many legal professionals prefer WordPerfect. Stanleykswong (talk) 10:21, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Viennese Waltz, thanks so much for that helpful suggestion. Drmies (talk) 15:27, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
You can create a hyperlink to a file using WordPerfect. First, you select text or a graphic you want to create a hyperlink. Then you click “Tools”, select “Hyperlink” and then type a path or document you want to link to. Stanleykswong (talk) 10:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Stanleykswong, that sounds like it might work: thank you. Drmies (talk) 15:34, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Do web browsers display WordPerfect documents? I don't think I have a WordPerfect viewing app installed on my platform (macOS). Does anyone have a URL of a WordPerfect document handy?  --Lambiam 14:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Lambiam, WP translates easily to PDF and to Word. I use PDFs in my LMS. Drmies (talk) 15:34, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
You can see why WordPerfect is popular in legal circles at WordPerfect#Key characteristics (fourth bullet point) and WordPerfect#Faithful customers. 2A00:23A8:1:D801:8C31:BAC2:88CF:A92B (talk) 16:48, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
I don't have the feeling this answers my question. Would I have to find and install an app that translates .wpd documents to .pdf or .doc documents? Would I then be able to tell my browser to use this app? The question is informative, not meant to bash a product that I have zero familiarity with.  --Lambiam 17:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
I've opened early WordPerfect (WP 5.1) documents using both Word and Firefox without any need for a third party translator. The only trick was changing the file extension to .WPD so that my computer could create the file association more easily. In the old days, file extensions were not so rigorously restrictive and many files ended up with extensions like .01 or .v4 or whatever. Matt Deres (talk) 17:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
I cannot check if it would work for me, for lack of access to any WordPerfect document of any age.  --Lambiam 21:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Here's a bunch of them, in the DOJ archives.  Card Zero  (talk) 00:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
Thanks, finally an answer. When I click on a .wpd link, the file is downloaded. I can then open and view it with LibreOffice. (I can also open it with OpenOffice, but then I get to see garbage like ╖#<m\r╛∞¼_4YÖ¤ⁿVíüd╤?Y.)  --Lambiam 14:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
Yes, web browsers do display WordPerfect documents. If you google “wpd online viewer”, you will find a lot of them. Stanleykswong (talk) 23:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
When I google , I get two hits, one to this page and one to a site where you can upload a WPD document in order to be able to view it online. What happens when you view an html page with something like <a href="file:///my-document.wpd">Looky here!</a> embedded?  --Lambiam 13:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
Yes, you're right. Only Docx2doc (https://www.docx2doc.com/convert) and Jumpshare provide online viewers now. However, there are still other offline alternative, such as Cisdem (https://www.cisdem.com/document-reader-mac.html) and Apache. Stanleykswong (talk) 09:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
Some other text editors, such as TextMaker, can open and view WPD files. However, after editing, the WPD files can only be saved as other formats, such as docx or doc. Stanleykswong (talk) 09:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

One more thing that just came up--we got rapped on the fingers though the mandatory "training" didn't touch on it. We've been told that hyphens are bad. The internet tells me that screenreaders have trouble with hyphenated words, but does this apply also to date ranges? Graham87, does yours get this right, "Spring Break: 17-21 March"? For now I'm going with "Spring Break, 17 to 21 March", but it just doesn't look good to my traditional eyes. And on top of that I have to use sans serif fonts... Drmies (talk) 17:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

  • To give another example, I have to redo this: "Final grades are computed along the following scale: A: 90-100; B+: 87-89; B: 80-86; C+: 77-79; C: 70-76; D+: 67-69; D: 60-66; F: Below 60." Drmies (talk) 17:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
    • @Drmies: Under its default setting my screen reader does read out the hyphens, but I have my punctuation set lower than normal because I don't like hearing too much information so it doesn't for me. The other major Windows screen reader, NVDA, also reads them out by default. Graham87 (talk) 01:05, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

January 5

How to search for awkwardly named topics

On and off I've been looking for good sources for the concepts of general union and trade union federation so as to improve the articles, but every time I try I only get one or two somewhat helpful results. Many of the results are not of material about the concepts of general union or trade union federations, but often about a specific instance of them, and as a result hard to gleen a lot from about the broader concept. Typcially this is because of issues such as many general unions being named as such (for example Transport & General Workers' Union). I'm aware of the search trick that'd be something like "general union" -Transport & General Workers' Union but I've found it largely cumbersome and ineffective, often seeming to filter out any potential material all together

Thought I'd ask because I'd like to improve those articles, and this is an issue I'm sure would come up again for me otherwise on other articles Bejakyo (talk) 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Do any of the articles listed at Unionism help? Blueboar (talk) 14:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
If you search for , most hits will not be about a specific instance.  --Lambiam 14:43, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

January 6

What does the Thawabit consist of?

I asked about this at the article talk page and WikiProject Palestine, no response. Maybe it's not a question Misplaced Pages can answer, but I'm curious and it would improve the article. Prezbo (talk) 09:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  • It's acronym (or an abbreviation) for the four principles enumerated in the article. Like how the Bill of Rights is the first ten amendments to the US Constitution. Abductive (reasoning) 13:16, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
    Thawabit is short for alThawabit alWataniat alFilastinia, the "Palestinian National Constants". Thawabit is the plural of thabit, "something permanent or invariable; constant".  --Lambiam 13:36, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
    What I'm saying is that I'm not sure the article is correct. The sourcing is thin, reference are paywalled, offline, or dead, and Google isn't helpful. Other scholarly and activist sources give different versions of the Thawabet, e.g.This one adds the release of Palestinian prisoners, this one adds that Palestine is indivisible. The article says that these principles were formulated by the PLO in 1977 but doesn't link to a primary source (like the Bill of Rights). I don't know if you're a subject matter expert here, I'm not--actually trying to figure this out. Prezbo (talk) 13:39, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
    I was able to access the paywalled articles through the Misplaced Pages library, which adds a little more clarity. Prezbo (talk) 10:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
According to this source, a fifth principle was added in 2012: "the objection to recognize the State of Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people". However, I cannot find this in the cited source  --Lambiam 13:29, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
I checked the Arabic Misplaced Pages article before I responded above, and they list the same four principles. Abductive (reasoning) 13:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
That appears to be a translation of the English article, so this doesn't mean much to me. Prezbo (talk) 13:44, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
I've poked around a little, and there doesn't appear to have been any change. Abductive (reasoning) 13:59, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
The list in the book I linked to above is not the same as that in our article. The book does not include a "right to resistance", but demands the release by Israel of all Palestinian prisoners. It would be good to have a sourced, authoritative version, in particular the actual 1977 formulation by the PLO. Of course, nothing is so changeable as political principles, so one should expect non-trivial amendments made in the course of time.  --Lambiam 14:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
That book is incorrect. Abductive (reasoning) 21:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
How do you know?  --Lambiam 00:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
The text does not explicitly say, "among others", but the use of بها بما في ذلك suggests that this list of four principles is not exhaustive.  --Lambiam 00:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

January 7

Is there such a thing as a joke type index?

Has anyone produced an index of joke types and schemata (schemes?) along the lines of the Aarne–Thompson–Uther Index for folk tales? More generally what kind of studies of the structure of jokes and humor are available? Has anyone come up with an A.I. that can generate new jokes? 178.51.8.23 (talk) 18:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

For starters, there's Index of joke types. ←Baseball Bugs carrots21:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
AI generated jokes have been around for years. Just Google for it. They range from weird to meh. Shantavira| 10:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Gershon Legman made an attempt of sorts in his two joke collections, but it was kind of a half-assed approach: there are a bunch of indices printed on pages, but no key tying them together per se. His interest was in the core of the subject of the joke, so he might have said, for example, that these jokes were all based on unresolved Oedipal drives while those jokes were based on hatred of the mother (he was a capital "F" Freudian). The link Bugs shared is more about the formats of the jokes themselves, though some are also differentiated by their subject (albeit in a more superficial way than Legman attempted). Matt Deres (talk) 21:15, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Arthur Koestler has attempted to develop a theory of humour (as well as art and discovery), first in Insight and Outlook (1949) and slightly elaborated further in The Act of Creation (1964). He did, however, not develop a typology of jokes. IMO Victor Raskin's script-based semantic theory of humor presented in Semantic Mechanisms of Humor (1985) is essentially the same as Koestler's, but Raskin does not reference Koestler in the book. For an extensive overview of theories of humour see Contemporary Linguistic Theories of Humour.  --Lambiam 00:51, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

January 8

The Nest magazine, UK, 1920s

I have a copy of The Grocer's Window Book. London: The Nest Magazine. 1922., "arranged by The Editor of The Nest". The address of The Nest Magazine is given as 15 Arthur Street, London, EC4. It contains suggestions for arranging window displays in an attractive manner to attract customers into independent grocer's shops. I would be interested to know more about The Nest. I suspect it may have something to do with Nestles Milk, as 1) the back cover is a full-page advertisement for Nestles and Ideal Milk, and there are several other adverts for Nestles products in the book, and 2) one of the suggested window displays involves spelling out "IDEAL" with tins of Ideal Milk. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 02:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Nest, 1922. M.—1st. 6d. Nestle and Anglo-Swiss Condensed Milk Co., 15 Arthur Street, E.c.4 according to Willing's press guide and advertisers directory and handbook. I also found it in The Newspaper press directory and advertisers' guide, which merely confirms the address and the price of sixpence. Both of these were for the year 1922, which suggests to me that the magazine might not have survived into 1923. M signifies monthly, and 1st probably means published on the 1st of the month.  Card Zero  (talk) 19:37, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Historical U.S. population data by age (year 1968)

In the year 1968, what percentage of the United States population was under 25 years old? I am wondering about this because I am watching the movie Wild in the Streets, and want to know if a percentage claimed in the film was pulled out of a hat or was based in fact. 2601:18A:C500:E830:CE4:140C:29E5:594F (talk) 04:17, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

What percentage did they give? ←Baseball Bugs carrots05:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
52% (it's on the movie poster).  Card Zero  (talk) 16:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Tabel No. 6 in the 1971 US Census Report (p. 8) gives, for 1960, 80093 Kpeople age 0–24 on a total population of 180007 Kpeople, corresponding to 44.5%, and, for 1970, 94095 Kpeople age 0–24 on a total population of 204265 Kpeople, corresponding to 46.1%. Interpolation results in an estimate of 45.8% for 1968.  --Lambiam 12:36, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Who are Kpeople? ←Baseball Bugs carrots23:48, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
Reverse engineering and a spot of maths: k = kilo = 1 000 = 1 thousand. Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 10:49, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
So, Kpeople means 1 thousandpeople. ←Baseball Bugs carrots18:07, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Countries with greatest land mass

Can someone please fill in these blanks? Thank you.

1. Currently, the USA ranks as number _____ among countries with the greatest land mass.

2. If the USA were to "annex" or "acquire" both Canada and Greenland, the USA would rank as number _____ among countries with the greatest land mass.

Thanks. 32.209.69.24 (talk) 05:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

See List of countries and dependencies by area, which gives a nuanced answer to your first question, and the answer to your second question is obvious from the data in the article.-Gadfium (talk) 05:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
4 and 1. But the chance of Trump to annex Canada is close to zero. Stanleykswong (talk) 09:58, 10 January 2025 (UTC)


January 11

Categories: