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{{ITN talk |date1=13 September 2012 |oldid1=512242307 |date2=26 April 2016 }} |
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{{On this day|date1=2004-04-15|oldid1=3205439|date2=2005-04-15|oldid2=12414594|date3=2006-04-15|oldid3=48583947|date4=2007-04-15|oldid4=123038891|date5=2013-04-15|oldid5=550501439|date6=2014-04-15|oldid6=604104755|date7=2017-04-15|oldid7=775557526|date8=2019-04-15|oldid8=892635661|date9=2023-04-15|oldid9=1149810979|date10=2024-04-15|oldid10=1219013335}} |
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{{press|date=2014-04-25 |url=http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-27152223 |title=Hillsborough Misplaced Pages posts: Government pledges 'urgent inquiries' |org=] |section=}} |
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| url=http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-27152223 |title=Hillsborough Misplaced Pages posts: Government pledges 'urgent inquiries' |org=] |section= |
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| url2=http://www.channel4.com/news/hillsborough-government-offensive-comments-wikipedia-page|title2=Hillsborough: government probes 'sickening' Misplaced Pages edits|org2=]|date2=2014-04-25| author3 = Oliver Duggan| title3 = Shocking Hillsborough insults added on Misplaced Pages from Government computers| org3 = '']'' |
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| url3 = http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/hillsborough-wikipedia-insults-added-government-7029881 | date3 = 2014-04-24|quote3 = | archiveurl3= https://web.archive.org/web/20140426215152/http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/hillsborough-wikipedia-insults-added-government-7029881 | archivedate3 = 2014-05-01 | accessdate3 = 2014-04-30 |
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| url4 = http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/offensive-hillsborough-comments-added-wikipedia-11256592 | date4 = 2016-04-28 | author4 = Francesca Fitzsimmons | title4 = Offensive Hillsborough comments added to Misplaced Pages using council IP address | org4 = '']'' | accessdate4 = 2016-04-29 |
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{{Top 25 Report|Apr 13 2014|Apr 24 2016}} |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 13 June 2022 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Hillsborough disaster|answered=yes}} |
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== Image issues == |
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Fans in the stadium were literally crushed to death. ] (]) 17:29, 13 June 2022 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:ESp --> ] (]) 17:38, 13 June 2022 (UTC) |
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].]] |
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For some reason this image in the ] section of the article refuses to appear, despite the markup being exactly the same as the other image included in that section. It does render properly however when previewing edits. I've commented it out for now until someone more competent with markup than I am can work out where it's wrong. - '''<span style="text-shadow:silver 0.3em 0.3em 0.1em">]</span>''' '']'' 01:21, 17 April 2012 (UTC) |
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:Resolved - ] is sometimes the way to go - <font color="purple">]</font><font color="orange">really</font><font color="red">]</font> 20:49, 17 April 2012 (UTC) |
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== Lead == |
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I have accidentally overcooked the lead, due to not seeing the previous expansion a few minutes earlier. Any ideas on how to consolidate it? There are some important elements in both paragraphs. While mindful of POV, what I would hope is that the final paragraph of the lead can convey the widespread consensus on the version of events that came out today, from the families to the people mentioned in the paragraph I added. —]— <sub>''']'''</sub> 19:03, 12 September 2012 (UTC) |
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I tried to tighten it up a little. Is this what you meant? |
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Also, wanted to clarify something. The mentions the 96 deaths, and then it says "Another 766 persons were injured. All of those were fans of Liverpool Football Club." Does this mean that of the 96 deaths some were fans of the other team while the 766 injured were Liverpool fans? Does that mean there were no police or stadium officials injured? It also implies that among the dead were individuals other than Liverpool Football Club fans. ] (]) 23:56, 12 September 2012 (UTC) |
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I know little about this disaster and and came here to learn about it but it would be very odd if, of 766 injured people, all were liverpool fans and yet it the 96 deaths included non-liverpool fans. The injuries and deaths would have had similar causes and in British Football stadia it is normal to keep many stands for the exclusive use of fans of just one club. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 10:02, 20 May 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== chief superintendent Brian Mole == |
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There needs to be section on the replacement of chief superintendent Brian Mole, who was the police commander at Hillsborough for a number of years, 21 days before the disaster. |
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Having replaced an extremely experienced match commander with essentially a novice, is a contributory factor and Phil Scraton's book notes some reasons for this - we need another source |
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] (]) 21:57, 12 September 2012 (UTC) |
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== "Advertising hoardings" or advertising boardings? == |
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In the second paragraph it says "To carry the injured, supporters tore down advertising hoardings ..." Is "boardings" meant instead? I'm from the other side of the pond and know you Brits have some funny words for things. ;-) |
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In one of the later paragraphs it says "advertising boards." Is "boardings" a word? ] (]) 23:24, 12 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:Hoardings would be correct usage. ] (]) 00:22, 13 September 2012 (UTC) |
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==This needs a tag to indicate it is in the news== |
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This topic is in the news at present (September 2012). Shouldn't there be a tag heading the article to indicate that it it is in the news? ] (]) 10:26, 13 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:That tag is generally reserved for articles which are posted on the Main Page's ] section. There is currently a discussion about Hillsborough ]. —]— <sub>''']'''</sub> 10:30, 13 September 2012 (UTC) |
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== New information source == |
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*. ] (]) 11:20, 13 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:Thanks. You'll see we already have a section on the new report, and links to the report and the HIP website. --] ] 11:34, 13 September 2012 (UTC) |
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* As far as I can see the Hillsborough Independent Panel didn't claim that there hads been "strenuous attempts" by the police to deflect blame onto the plans. This would be consistent with the HIP's policy of providing information and letting others draw conclusions. I have therefore deleted a reference to this from the Article. However the "strenuous attempts" claim does seem to have been widely reported in the media so I could be wrong. Bur for the moment I think it should be excluded - there's a lynch mob atmosphere already.] (]) 20:28, 28 December 2012 (UTC) |
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== Before the disaster == |
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I have removed reference to the Heysel Stadium Disaster from this section, though it's necessary to explain the reason why, to avoid accusation of censorship. According to ''The Roots of Football Hooliganism'' (Routledge) and ''Hooligans'' (Milo Books), the first fences were erected in 1974. Manchester United was relegated and ] hooligans travelled around the country causing mayhem, stabbing opposing fans, invading the pitch and halting play. Author Dominic Sandbrook, in his book ''State of Emergency'', writes:<br> |
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"Officials had been talking of installing steel fences for years, but hesitated because of safety, cost and image concerns. Manchester United, though, had been ordered to install fences in the summer of 1974, and where they led others followed."<br> |
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To be clear, almost every single football club attracted an undesirable element that would cause serious trouble both home and away. See ]. (Liverpool erected fences in 1978-1979 to stop fans from invading the playing field and swarming the players whenever they paraded a trophy.) In this context, it is potentially confusing that an event that occurred nine years later -- in 1985, conincidentally involving Liverpool fans -- should serve as the sole example of football hooliganism in English football. I do not believe this section requires specific examples of violence, in any case. It should be enough to explain that hooliganism was a growing concern in the early 1970s and that English clubs took a variety of measures to contain the problem, including the erection of fencing. — ] 18:12, 13 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:I think that Heysel is relevant in setting the context for Hillsborough. Heysel had happened only four years earlier and English clubs were still banned from Europe at the time of Hillsborough. The (non-football) public had a negative opinion football fans generally but, due to Heysel, of Liverpool supporters specifically. This meant that the public was more inclined to believe the lies put out by the police, including that it was the fans who had caused the disaster. Even after the Taylor Report some people held on to the view that the fans were to blame. |
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:If Forest had been given the Leppings Lane end and 96 Forest fans had died then, had the police put out the same lies, I think the public would have been more sceptical. So, while Heysel is not relevant to the Hillsborough disaster itself; it is relevant to the cover-up and the reaction of the public. I'm not sure where it would best fit into the article, though. ] (]) 02:19, 15 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::More accurately, Heysel is relevant in setting the context for Police deception and obfuscation. Yes, I agree entirely. Heysel was a pure act of thuggery. It was the final straw that saw all English clubs banned from competing in Europe. Therefore it was easy for senior officers to conflate two separate incidents and create a fictitious narrative in order to conceal simple individual failings. I think, given the weight of evidence now in the public domain, bolstered by countless reliable sources, this article requires a new section between The disaster and The Taylor inquiry that explicitly makes this point. Something along these lines: |
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::The disaster |
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::Police obfuscation |
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::The Taylor inquiry |
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::Lord Justice Taylor recognised how senior Police officers had attempted to control the message following the disaster, but I doubt he could have imagined the amount of evidence that was withheld from his enquiry — ] 11:06, 15 September 2012 (UTC) |
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==Merge from Hillsborough Independent Panel article== |
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:''This discussion is continued from ].'' |
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* I don't think ] is helpful or useful; rather it should be a redirect to this article. Thoughts? --] ] 20:33, 13 September 2012 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' It does seem unnecessary as there is a large section on it here with most of the content of the article giving a good 'cut and thrust' of it. After merging redirect to the relevant section here. --] ] 23:02, 13 September 2012 (UTC) |
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*The creator of that article has been blocked for edit warring, and three separate users attempted to redirect it to ]. The simple solution would probably be to redirect once more, given that at least seven users support this course of action (here, there and at WT:FOOTY), and the only user against was blocked specifically for removing the redirect. I can't due it myself due to 3RR. —]— <sub>''']'''</sub> 01:11, 14 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:Hmm I think I would feel more comfortable if it were to go to AfD as has been suggested in order to gain broader consensus in light of the dispute. Of course if there is a sudden influx of people all saying we should merge and redirect then that is clearly not necessary. Either way thats just my thoughts, but not having been involved the dispute I'll leave it to others to decide what to do. --] ] 01:53, 14 September 2012 (UTC) |
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*'''Merge''', preferably '''Speedy Merge''' given the significant number of responses on the Hillsborough Independent Panel talk page. The Panel page says nothing that should not be said here; the only content actually specific to the panel on that page is the list of names of the participants. ] (]) 04:23, 14 September 2012 (UTC) |
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**Can I just make the point that the list of participants is incorporated into the prose in this article (second paragraph of the independent panel section). It is formatted uniquely in the forked article, but is not new information. —]— <sub>''']'''</sub> 08:17, 14 September 2012 (UTC) |
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*'''Speedy redirect''' for the following reasons: |
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**Unanimous consensus among unblocked editors (myself, Tagishsimon, wintonian, VQuakr, Struway2, Peridon and Lemonade51) that the page should redirect to the relevant section here. |
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**The fact that DePiep's most recent removal of the redirect was a breach of 3RR, which resulted in a 48 hour block for edit-warring, with a second admin stating that the only reason he did not block is because he considered himself involved with the user |
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***I repeat: the status quo of two articles has been achieved through edit-warring which resulted in a block. Without this edit-warring, the page would currently redirect to this article. |
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**'''] is copyvio''', as it fails to comply with the terms of the CC-BY-SA 3.0 Licence (attribution). |
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**Even after the expansion, ] is a near-exact fork of the appropriate section in this article. Don't let the section headers fool you: the prose itself was a direct port. And don't let the list of names at the bottom fool you: these names were already included in the prose – no new information is communicated. —]— <sub>''']'''</sub> 07:57, 14 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::What is the basis for the copyvio claim? Insufficient attribution of copying with Misplaced Pages ], and Depiep the source page in a rough sort of way. ] (]) 08:05, 14 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::Sure, it's easily resolved, but lack of attributions is one of many reasons I have given above for a speedy redirect. —]— <sub>''']'''</sub> 08:14, 14 September 2012 (UTC) |
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*'''I have redirected'''. The texts of ] and ] were just about identical. ] (]) 09:13, 14 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::I can note that the original page did not have a link tot the source . Apart from not sourced, it was a great encyclopedic section. -] (]) 01:29, 16 September 2012 (UTC) |
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* '''Best way forward''': I agree. Page ] should stay a redirect until it is independent enough to be on its own. Solved. How come I did not think of that? -] (]) 02:24, 16 September 2012 (UTC) |
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== Tottenham near tragedy == |
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This is a quote from ]. The sentence apparently classifies some of the casualties as less than "serious" which I think is inappropriate. Unless someone can root out (and clarify to show) some other valid meaning, I move that ", many of them serious" be removed. ] (]) 01:06, 16 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:This sentence refers to broken limbs. Lord Taylor wrote of the Tottenham and Wolverhampton incident in 1981: |
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:''"Those being crushed called for the perimeter gates to be opened onto the track. There was no immediate reaction, according to Mr Vaux who was there, but fortunately a police Inspector gave instructions and the gates were then opened. About 250 came out onto the track. There were broken arms, legs and ribs and 38 were treated either in hospital or by the St John Ambulance Brigade. It is clear from the documents (a) that the turnstile readings showed the capacity figure of 10,100 had been exceeded by over 400 (b) that the police shut off further access to the terraces because of crushing, and (c) the police view after the event was that the capacity figure of 10,100 in the Safety Certificate was too high. This latter view was communicated to the Club by the Chief Superintendent then in command of F Division but it was not pursued."'' |
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:We can describe the injuries sustained, rather than saying "many of them serious". — ] 10:49, 16 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::Accounts from Tottenham fans are scarily familiar: |
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::''"Women and children were being crushed. I am tall and able to take care of myself, but I felt my ribs cracking. Not until 3.10 did the police become aware of the dangerous situation and begin letting people on to the touch-line."'' |
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::Another: |
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::''"I can remember clearly people pleading with the police to open the gate at the front of the pitch to relieve the crush but there was obviously no one senior to make the decision to allow the gate to be opened. Fans started to scream, throw and spit at the police in an attempt to get the gate opened. Finally the gate was opened but then because the opening was higher than the floor people couldnt raise their knees to get out of the opening because of the crush so people were having to be pulled out from pitch side."'' |
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::Video of the incident and some written accounts . — ] 13:22, 16 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::While that may add to the article independently of my concern, my point is that the sentence structure implies that many (but not all) of the casualties were serious. Casualties meaning serious injury or death, this seems inappropriate, especially since to most (many) the word means only (or at least implies primarily) fatalities/deaths, which I am uncomfortable grading in seriousness. ] (]) 12:09, 17 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::How about ''...resulting in 38 injuries, many of them serious''? — ] 13:02, 17 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::To avoid value judgements, how about ''....resulting in 38 injuries, including broken arms, legs and ribs''. Keeps it factual as referenced above and arguably provides more impact as to the seriousness of the injuries. ] (]) 13:42, 17 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::I'm happy with that. — ] 16:52, 17 September 2012 (UTC) |
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==The Sun on 13/9/12== |
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] |
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I noticed that that day's Sun had a cover recalling 'The Truth', and I thought it might be useful for inclusion in the article. I invite anyone who wishes to do so to clean it up, edit out my shoes and reduce the resolution to something reasonable. --] (]) 20:56, 17 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:Only months later do I see the thumbnail was removed per non-free content usage policy, and then the image itself was deleted for being a non-free orphan. Well that's just lovely. If anyone still wants it leave me a message on my talk page. --] (]) 03:07, 10 April 2013 (UTC) |
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==Missing from this article?== |
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Unless I'm missing this, the article currently doesn't convey anything at all about the family's campaign; does not explain why the Stuart-Smith scrutiny or the HIP were demanded or required. Oh, sorry - we say in HIP: "''In the years after the disaster there was a feeling that the full facts were not in the public domain and a suspicion that some facts were deliberately covered up. The Hillsborough Family Support Group, led by Trevor Hicks, campaigned for the release of all relevant documents.''" I tend to think we should be saying more, sooner, about the campaign, probably by way of a mention in the lead; and campaign reactions to Taylor, the inquests, Stuart-Smith, and HIP. |
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Next I think missing from HIP is discussion of consequences and reactions - not least SYP thinking about referring themselves to the IPPC; and the media consensus that new inquests are required, and that a number of lines of prosecution exist. |
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Finally, I think the article needs additional material on the political & cultural context, particularly the thread between the Tories and SYP post the miner's strike. There are plenty of RS for a discussion of this. |
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I hope to join in & add some of this, but for now am as interested in identifying perceived gaps. (Oh, and removal of Cracker: good) --] ] 23:20, 18 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:Agree with you entirely. A lot more can be said of the HIP. I plan to read their report shortly (wish to add one additional sub section regarding poor signage before proceeding) so I can help out with this. A lot more can be said about Police misdirection and obfuscation. Possibly an entire section given the amount of reliable sources available. Not sure where to place it, though. — ] 23:56, 18 September 2012 (UTC) |
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== BBC Panorama - 20 May 2013 additions == |
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The piece has just been broadcast. |
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* Article says 1 ambulance entered stadium, programs says 3 ambulances entered stadium - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22566230 |
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Likely many more corrections for the article. |
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-- 21:07, 20 May 2013 (UTC) <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== Universal English? == |
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This article utilizes British English in a way that makes it difficult to understand from a non-British background. The true meaning of the disaster and what happened is lost. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 16:38, 14 December 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:May be you could give a couple of examples. ] (]) 19:56, 14 December 2013 (UTC) |
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==Recentism in the lead== |
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I have just read the article and there appears to be quite a lot of recentism ]) in the lead. It appears as if, as the story has developed over the past few years, this information has gradually accumulated in the lead. The reason I noticed it is that we allocate 324 words for the disaster itself (what the article should be mainly about), 46 words on the official inquiry and the significant changes that resulted because of it, but 229 words solely about events in the past few years. I understand that it is natural to want to put this in, but we must remember that the lead is only supposed to summarise the overall events and it is not helpful to have a lopsided lead. As an example, is the long sentence containing Andy Burnham really needed? I have not made any changes because I know this is a potentially controversial topic. I thought I would copy here a suggested version of the final three paragraphs. Please let me know what you think. ] (]) 15:31, 26 February 2014 (UTC) |
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The 1990 official inquiry into the disaster, the Taylor Report, concluded that "the main reason for the disaster was the failure of police control." The findings of the report resulted in the elimination of standing terraces at all major football stadiums in England, Wales and Scotland. |
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After the release of previously unavailable documents, the Hillsborough Independent Panel concluded that no Liverpool fans were responsible for the deaths, and that attempts had been made by the authorities to conceal what happened, including the alteration by police of statements relating to the disaster. The facts in the report prompted apologies from Prime Minister David Cameron and the Chief Constable of South Yorkshire Police, David Crompton, amongst others, for their organisations' respective roles. The Panel concluded that up to nearly half of the fatalities might have been avoided had they received prompt medical treatment. The report revealed "multiple failures" by other emergency services and public bodies that contributed to the death toll. In response to the report, a new inquest was granted in the High Court with the possibility of overturning the original verdicts of accidental death. |
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By the way, the end of the current final sentence seems a bit inappropriate in tone: 'On 19 December 2012, a new inquest was granted in the High Court, to the relief of the families and friends of the Hillsborough deceased.' I shall not make any changes until I hear back from you. ] (]) 15:31, 26 February 2014 (UTC) |
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Shouldn't there be some criminal charges against the organisers for the un-timly deaths of 96 true liverpool fans? |
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Rob Kemp life long liverpool supporter <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 08:15, 16 April 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== Police Witness Statements Altered - A Cover Up? == |
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'The findings concluded that 164 witness statements had been altered. Of those statements, 116 were amended to remove or change negative comments about South Yorkshire Police.' It's worth reading the full report about these alterations. Much is made of them, but in reality they seem quite innocuous. Draft witness statements were collected from police officers present and then checked by the force's solicitors who in turn recommended that a significant number be changed in various, often small, ways. The reasons for the suggested changes varied, but included unprofessional language, subjective comments about both fans and fellow officers, and observations on things the officers had not actually seen. The idea seems to have arisen that these alterations meant that there was 'a police cover up', but the last investigation, which examined this question in detail, does not seem suport such a belief since all the changes were (a) suggested by the solicitors and (b) seem to have been logical ones having regard to the fact that the purpose of a witness statement is to record what one actually saw or experienced. Cassandra. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 14:47, 22 April 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:The phrase you mention is a direct quote from the summary to the report ( http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/report/Section-1/summary/page-13/ ) and so is entirely appropriate to this article. Attempting an interpretation, as you have done, violates ]. ] (]) 17:20, 24 April 2014 (UTC) |
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== Misplaced Pages edits from government IP addresses == |
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This is starting to break as news at the moment and the government is looking into it. Probably worth adding to controversies once enough third-party detail is out there. In particular, it should be made clear that this doesn't mean this was an official decision, as the Liverpool Echo article says: |
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:"However, an official inquiry is necessary to establish exactly which department and which people are responsible for the changes as the IP addresses cover thousands of Whitehall computers." |
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Links so far: ] (]) 17:29, 24 April 2014 (UTC) |
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:Guardian has got it now see .— ] <sup>]</sup> 20:45, 24 April 2014 (UTC) |
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::And the Telegraph see .— ] <sup>]</sup> 20:54, 24 April 2014 (UTC) |
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:::Daily Mirror version .— ] <sup>]</sup> 20:59, 24 April 2014 (UTC) |
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::::ITV now has .— ] <sup>]</sup> 21:11, 24 April 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::And the BBC .— ] <sup>]</sup> 21:40, 24 April 2014 (UTC) |
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:Which edits are being cited? What ip numbers?--] (]) 21:44, 24 April 2014 (UTC) |
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::Edits during 2009. None so far I can see from 194.60.38.198, our usual Parliamentary friends. Appalling stuff, from individual departments "... entries were posted from IP addresses used by computers based in government departments, including the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, Her Majesty's Treasury and the Office of the Solicitor General." From ''The Guardian'' ] (]) 22:14, 24 April 2014 (UTC) |
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:::''Liverpool Echo'' mentions two addresses used from "34 known to public from the Government Secure Intranet (GSI)" ] (]) 22:33, 24 April 2014 (UTC) |
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:::I think the mention of the Treasury comes from the written answer (see below) and the other two departments are the ''Liverpool Echo'' stirring things up, since they relate to Hillsborough. The two IP addresses are shared by all government departments, so there's no basis for singling out those particular ones and no way of telling, just from the IP address, which department the edit came from. Only the government will be able to trace the sources of the edits, assuming they still have the relevant logs. ] (]) 01:17, 25 April 2014 (UTC) |
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::] and ] are the IP addresses mentioned in a 2008 written answer from Angela Eagle . In the article that broke the story , the ''Liverpool Echo'' journalist has looked at all the edits from those IPs, I think. They don't specify the IPs in the article, but they are clear about their source: |
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:::"The web of computers is tracked online by a handful of IP addresses, the details of which were released by Wallasey MP Angela Eagle following a parliamentary question in 2008, when she was a Treasury minister. |
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:::Analysis of Misplaced Pages’s revision history revealed the same unique ID codes were used to amend the Hillsborough and Anfield pages with a series of sick jokes." |
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::The article mentions several edits and gives 2009 and 2012 as the dates for a couple of them. |
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::I used to work as a network engineer for the ISP that provides the Government Secure Intranet and I can say that those two address are firewalls that provide internet access (via ]) to pretty much the entire civil service - so thousands and thousands of people will be sharing those addresses to access the internet from work, from the lowest admin assistant all the way to the top. Most likely they were by fans of other clubs trolling and unaware that they'd leave a trace. I'd be surprised if the Government has the logs to track down the individuals responsible. ] (]) 23:35, 24 April 2014 (UTC) |
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:::Diffs - this article: ; ]: . I think that covers everything reported - I went back as far as 2007 on both IPs and didn't find anything else. ] (]) 03:22, 25 April 2014 (UTC) |
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::Thanks to everyone in the community for their customary vigilance and competence. If there are any press enquiries that end up here we will be able to explain, yet again, how Misplaced Pages works. To quote user Rexx about this page 'our system works. But that's not news.' ] (]) 08:38, 25 April 2014 (UTC) |
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:::Yes. Reverted in 4 minutes, 3 hours 28 minutes and 9 minutes respectively, which may even compare well to the comments sections of some of the sites that are carrying this story. ] (]) 10:39, 25 April 2014 (UTC) |
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Getting picked up widely now, in addition to those already mentioned: |
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Essentially they are all variations on the original ''Liverpool Echo'' piece, but I notice that the story is already starting to mutate. From the ''Daily Mail'': |
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:"Further abusive revisions were traced to IP addresses of computers in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, the Treasury and the Solicitor General’s office. " |
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and |
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:"The revelations came to light after 34 IP addresses of Whitehall computers were disclosed via a parliamentary question." |
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Neither of these statements is correct: the parliamentary answer only named two addresses (see above) and neither address can be traced to specific departments without further investigation. The article also gives the impression of many separate changes, but the diffs (above) only show three edits in total from the two IP addresses and all the changes mentioned are covered by just two of them. |
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Until the results of the official investigation are published, I'd suggest that any editors who want to add this to the article are cautious about how they use the media reports - the press doesn't currently have enough information to do much more than speculate. Even calling them Whitehall address may turn out to be misleading in terms of how that is typically understood. The 195.92.40.49 gateway is in Leeds and is likely to cover offices in the northern half of the country, the 62.25.106.209 gateway is in Watford and probably covers the south, although not exclusively London or specifically Whitehall. To pick a couple of possible scenarios, a northern edit could have come from ] and a southern one from the ]. So nothing is going to be that clear until the government investigates and reports its findings. ] (]) 10:21, 25 April 2014 (UTC) |
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===Any other pages involved?=== |
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I'm doing a radio interview about this later today (5 Live). Were any other pages involved? Or are we talking about literally three IP edits from two and five years ago? - ] (]) 11:34, 25 April 2014 (UTC) |
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:The Daily Mail has two more from ]: "The words ‘nothing for the victims of the Heysel stadium disaster’ were also added to a description of the Hillsborough memorial at the Anfield stadium" and "On another occasion, the description of a statue of Liverpool manager Bill Shankly on the Anfield Misplaced Pages page was revised to change the well-known quote ‘He made the people happy’ to the bizarre ‘He made a wonderful lemon drizzle cake’." ] (]) 12:14, 25 April 2014 (UTC) |
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::Ah yes, those were one edit: , reverted 4 min later. Thanks! - ] (]) 12:21, 25 April 2014 (UTC) |
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:::Actually, only the next edit was 4 minutes later (also from a GSi address, and adding contentious, but not insulting stuff - it was reverted 5 minutes later , but the first edit remained), it took almost two days for that edit to completely disappear . ] (]) 12:47, 25 April 2014 (UTC) |
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== January 2024 == |
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:::Just as a side-note: I've been extra cautious around Daily Mail stories about Misplaced Pages ever since "Christina Aguilera fluffs the lines to the National Anthem at the Super Bowl - by singing botched lyrics found on Misplaced Pages", when we found that the lyrics had been changed on Misplaced Pages after the event but still in time to make a good story. ] (]) 13:12, 25 April 2014 (UTC) |
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::::As I said, above, they've already managed to mangle the story when simply copying it from the ''Liverpool Echo'' original. ] (]) 13:20, 25 April 2014 (UTC) |
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Re : the sourcing does not say this, nor did the coroner's inquests. '''''] <sup>]</sup>''''' 16:24, 15 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:The origin of the story is the ''Liverpool Echo'' and that only mentions Hillsborough (this page) and ] as being changed. Those are the search terms I used when looking through the logs. Of the diffs I provided, above, isn't insulting and is not referenced in the article. The following quote from the article is covered by this edit : |
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::"A series of sickening revisions to the site began on the 20th anniversary of the 1989 tragedy, when “Blame Liverpool fans” was anonymously added to the Hillsborough section of the encyclopedia site." |
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:The rest is partially covered by this edit but I'll quote what the article says because that edit doesn't cover everything (I've bolded the bits that aren't accounted for). |
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::"Computers on Whitehall’s secure intranet were used again in 2012 to change the phrase “You’ll never walk alone” to “You’ll never walk again” '''and later “You’ll never w*** alone.”''' |
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Yes they did. I quote from the following source: "The jury found match commander Ch Supt David Duckenfield was "responsible for manslaughter by gross negligence" due to a breach of his duty of care." |
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::"'''A further amendment from a government machine includes changes to the phrase “This is Anfield”, which appears above the players’ tunnel at the club's ground, to “This is a S***hole.”''' |
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36138337 <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 12:39, 7 April 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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::"The words “nothing for the victims of the Heysel stadium disaster” were also added to a description of the Hillsborough memorial at the Reds’ stadium. |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 11 April 2024 == |
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] |
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{{edit semi-protected|Hillsborough disaster|answered=yes}} |
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::"On another occasion, the description of a Bill Shankly statue on the Anfield Misplaced Pages page was revised to change the well-known quote “He made the people happy” to “He made a wonderful lemon drizzle cake.”" |
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The first paragraph currently reads: "This resulted in overcrowding of those pens and the crush." It should instead read "This act of gross negligence resulted in overcrowding of those pens and the crush." |
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That is what the inquest found, as per the source provided above. The previous person (who removed my edit) has not responded to my source. I can only presume he therefore accepts that he was wrong and that there is no further valid objection to this edit. ] (]) 01:15, 11 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:The edit I found changes "This is Anfield" to "This Is A Field" not "This is a Shithole" - and there are no other edits on either page for 62.25.106.209 or 195.92.40.49 that I could find (someone may want to double check this). That means that "This is a Shithole" and “You’ll never wank alone.” were either made by a different IP or IPs or were made earlier than I searched (to about mid 2007), assuming the reporter isn't mistaken. Probably the best thing to do to get the full details would be to contact the journalist, Oliver Duggan, at the ''Liverpool Echo'' or via Twitter or his website . ] (]) 13:20, 25 April 2014 (UTC) |
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:]. ]. ] 04:35, 11 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::The ] already says "The second coroner's inquests were held from 1 April 2014 to 26 April 2016. They ruled that the supporters were unlawfully killed owing to grossly negligent failures by police and ambulance services to fulfil their duty of care." Anyone with an attention span long enough to read the entire lead rather than just the opening paragraph will come across the phrase "gross negligence".--'''''] <sup>]</sup>''''' 10:30, 11 April 2024 (UTC) |
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Interview just done - prerecorded (they're prerecording everything they can about Hillsborough from a great deal of legal caution about the issue) - technical stuff about how to edit (click "edit"), what gets recorded when you edit Misplaced Pages as an IP, that our policy is to keep things as open as possible and only lock when needed, that we're unlikely to change this policy (since we can revert rubbish easily, and can lock pages as needed if necessary), that anyone can see the history tab and look through it and that if you create a login then people can't see your IP, but they can see your track record of changes 'cos that's how you accumulate reputation. Wonder what they'll use from it ... it'll be on this afternoon - ] (]) 14:11, 25 April 2014 (UTC) |
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:::Interesting. How come you didn't know that then, when you were falsely asserting above that the sourcing did not support my edit? |
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:::Could that be because you hadn't actually read the full paragraph yourself and thus didn't actually know the full picture? |
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:::Thus, I think you've just demonstrated my point for me: this critical information needs to be stated up front so that it isn't missed {{PA}}. ] (]) 13:42, 12 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Already answered. ]. Get over it. Move on. Your attitude will get you absolutely nowhere. ]. ] 16:33, 12 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Hi Soetermans. You like throwing around links to pages (without making an actual argument). So I've done some reading, and I have a page to throw back at you. This one: |
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:::::https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Status_quo_stonewalling |
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:::::That page perfectly describes you (and IanMacM). The following passages are particularly pertinent. |
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:::::''"Status quo stonewalling is opposition to a proposed change without (a) stating a substantive rationale based in policy, guidelines and conventions or (b) participating in good faith discussion. |
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:::::Such stonewalling is typified by an insistence on keeping a current version instead of adopting a proposed change – or reverting to the version prior to a disputed change (the status quo) – and avoiding substantive discussion of the issues related to the change while engaging in behavior that is typical of disputes. Such behavior creates the appearance of a real substantive dispute about the change when none (or little) exists. |
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:::::'' |
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:::::... |
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:::::In multiple stalled discussions, proponents of the change are likely to make patient and good faith repeated attempts to discuss the substantive points at issue. Trying different approaches, some posts might get long and repetitive. So another diverting/delaying tactic used at such a point is for the stonewallers to accuse the frustrated proponents of change of too much editing, either in the form of tendentious editing, or battleground mentality, or making TLDR or WP:DE/WP:IDHT posts."'' |
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:::::Sorry, but I'm not giving in to your stonewalling. You are wrong. You and IanMacM both know you're wrong. That's why you both tried to censor me earlier by removing my comment. Neither of you have ever produced any substantive rationale as to why my proposed edit should not be allowed. The best you could do was assert that my edit was factually inaccurate. And when I debunked that, you had nothing. ] (]) 19:09, 26 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:The article is edit protected. Others disagree with you. Move on. ]. ] 19:37, 26 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::And do not change the request again. It has been answered. ]. ] 19:38, 26 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Thank you for your status quo stonewalling. If you wish to contribute something productive to this discussion, feel free to do so. ] (]) 05:01, 27 May 2024 (UTC) |
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{{ec}} |
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::::This is largely a stylistic decision, it's perfectly normal, and IMO reads well to first say what happened at an event, whether natural or man-made, then to say what caused it and who or what was to blame. 143.58.205.157, you want to turn that on its head and ascribe blame before informing what the blame is for. I agree with the others, this wouldn't be an improvement and is somewhat clumsy English. ] (]) 05:02, 27 May 2024 (UTC) |
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] '''Not done for now:''' please establish a ] for this alteration ''']''' using the {{Tlx|Edit semi-protected}} template.<!-- Template:ESp --> The edit request template is intended for minor, noncontroversial edits. As this is now '''self-evidently''' not that, this template is not the appropriate venue to request this change. ] (]) 16:57, 27 May 2024 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 1 December 2024 == |
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== The Elephant in the Room == |
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Was this match an all ticket game ? |
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If so, how many of those who died did not have tickets ?? |
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More to the point - how many of those who turned up on the day did so without tickets ??? |
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Signed, Red Birdy Scouser. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 14:37, 25 April 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) </span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) </span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:] and ] baiting here. You keep putting this back and logging your phone off and back on again to get a different IP, so you look like different people. Rather than edit-war, I'll respond. Even as far back as the Taylor Report the whole "ticketless" thing was shown to be a police myth used to smear the fans. From this article: |
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{{Edit semi-protected|answered=yes}} |
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:"The possibility of fans attempting to gain entry without tickets or with forged tickets was suggested as a contributing factor. South Yorkshire Police suggested the late arrival of fans amounted to a conspiracy to gain entry without tickets. However, analysis of the electronic monitoring system, Health and Safety Executive analysis, and eyewitness accounts showed that the total number of people who entered the Leppings Lane end was below the official capacity of the stand. Eye witness reports suggested that tickets were available on the day and tickets for the Leppings Lane end were on sale from Anfield until the day before. The report dismissed the conspiracy theory." |
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<!--Don't remove anything above this line.--> |
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Also, from the summary of the independent panel report : |
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I would like for the following change to be made to the lead: |
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{{TextDiff|Ninety-four people died on the day; one more died in hospital days later, ] in 1993, and in 2021, a 97th who had suffered irreversible brain damage on the day.|Ninety-four people died on the day; one more died in hospital days later, and two people who had suffered brain damage on the day died ] and 2021.}} |
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:"153. Consistent with Lord Justice Taylor's findings, the Panel found no evidence among the vast number of disclosed documents and many hours of video material to verify the serious allegations of exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans. There was no evidence that fans had conspired to arrive late at the stadium and force entry and no evidence that they stole from the dead and dying. Documents show that fans became frustrated by the inadequate response to the unfolding tragedy. The vast majority of fans on the pitch assisted in rescuing and evacuating the injured and the dead." |
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This is to clarify that Bland, like Devine, also suffered brain damage on the day. |
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So, your questions are not "the elephant in the room", the situation has been exhaustively investigated and it is extremely likely that all the victims had tickets and that the vast majority of fans turned up with tickets. If a few did turn up without tickets, it has been established that this made no difference. |
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Now please do not post further unless you have a serious suggestion for improving the article and can provide suggestions based on ] and not just inflammatory questions. ] (]) 15:36, 25 April 2014 (UTC) |
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] (]) 22:52, 1 December 2024 (UTC) |
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<!--Don't remove anything below this line--> |
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:I've slightly rephrased your suggestion for clarity, thus: ''"Ninety-four people died on the day; one more died in hospital days later, ] died in 1993, and in 2021, a 97th. Both Bland and the 97th victim had suffered irreversible brain damage on the day."'' I hope this addresses your concerns.] (]) 05:07, 2 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::Thanks! However, you forgot to mark the edit request template as answered. I have done that for you tho, so don't worry. ] (]) 12:50, 2 December 2024 (UTC) |
Yes they did. I quote from the following source: "The jury found match commander Ch Supt David Duckenfield was "responsible for manslaughter by gross negligence" due to a breach of his duty of care."
The first paragraph currently reads: "This resulted in overcrowding of those pens and the crush." It should instead read "This act of gross negligence resulted in overcrowding of those pens and the crush."
That is what the inquest found, as per the source provided above. The previous person (who removed my edit) has not responded to my source. I can only presume he therefore accepts that he was wrong and that there is no further valid objection to this edit. 143.58.205.157 (talk) 01:15, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
This is to clarify that Bland, like Devine, also suffered brain damage on the day.
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:38, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the