Talk:Madonna: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 16:31, 4 July 2014 editChasewc91 (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers12,746 edits →Requested move 8: r← Previous edit		Latest revision as of 01:20, 15 January 2025 edit undoLuca Bagnoli bis (talk \| contribs)3 edits →Argument for the inclusion of the Italian IPA pronounciation of "Ciccone": new sectionTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit New topic
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	== Error ==

	At the end of the section for Music videos there is an error. it says in May 2014 Rolling Stone magazine named her the 4th highest grossing touring act. It was in fact Billboard magazine who named her this! <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 22:42, 5 June 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

	:{{Done}}--] • ] 22:55, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

	== My OCD spellcheck ==

	Under the vocal style & Instruments section, this phrase:

	"After two decades, Madonna decide to perform with guitar again during the promotion of Music"

	Should read:

	"After two decades, Madonna decided to perform with guitar again during the promotion of Music"

	...as the content of the paragraph is in the third person/past tense, "decide" should be "decided"

	Cheers :) <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 03:26, 13 June 2014 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:Thanks for pointing that out! Correcting..... '''''] (] • ])''''' 06:15, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

	== Most Influential Woman in History ==

	http://www.evoke.ie/most-influential-women-in-history/ This is a huge accomplishment and needs to be added right away. Also Queen of Pop should be next to her name, just like Michael Jackson's. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 09:49, 13 June 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:No. Misplaced Pages page views are not means of popularity. —] · <sup>] ]</sup> 09:59, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
	::I came across the article and immediately saw the lead with its superlatives: "unprecedented level of power," "Immense popularity" and so on. I'm going to trim the fawning portions, which (unsurprisingly) have no citations. Madonna is one of many singers but is not, as the article now implies, one of the greatest people who ever lived.] (]) 22:33, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
	:::Thabks for the catch. Article does need POV cleaning. '''''] (] • ])''''' 23:16, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
	::::Trimming =/= removing the whole block. I have reinstated it while deleting the non-neutral POV. Most of it is indeed critically discussed in the article body. Again, just to make it clear, I'm not for the fluffery that has seeped into this article in its legacy and other sections. But I'm against deleting whole blocks because of ]. And the edit by Catherinejarvis particularly seemed problematic because instead of finding an interim solution the user deleting the whole portion. I hope the user is careful from the next time though. —] · <sup>] ]</sup> 03:11, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

	== Potential GAR ==

	As the person who nominated this page for GA, I'm considering proposing it for reassessment as I think the problems of this page are worsening beyond belief. The was by no means perfect, but I believe it to be far more neutral than the current state of the article. The two worrying aspects are the lead and the Legacy section, which I think have been incrementally expanded into sections with fansite-like writing and lots of cut-and-stick quotations about how influential and amazing Madonna is. This isn't how an encyclopedia entry should read. I hope that editors can help facilitate a re-write of these sections, either formally in a GAR or informally through talk page discussion and general editing, or failing this, I think the article could be helped by copyedits from editors not interested in the subject. Regards, —'']'' \| ] 15:32, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
	:{{u\|IndianBio}}: A while ago you said you would attempt a re-write of the lead in your user space, did you start anything? I think the article would greatly benefit from that. However, if you didn't get round to it then don't worry, I'm sure we can figure something out! —'']'' \| ] 15:35, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
	::I think the legacy section is what bothers me the most. The lead can be definitely tweaked but the legacy section is too much. Give me a week's time, I think I can work on it in my sandbox. This week I would be busy completing some other assignments I had planned. How does that sound? I do not think it warrants a GAR based on two overflowing sections though. Just pretty much pruning the weed. —] · <sup>] ]</sup> 15:40, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
	:::GAR isn't quite needed, ]. I was thinking of touching it up in my own sandbox. Legacy is far too long. Taking a look at FA's such as ] and ], we should opt for three or four paragraphs at most. {{u\|IndianBio}} can take the lead section. '''''] (] • ])''''' 15:42, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
	:Great suggestions. The reason why I considered GAR is because I think this article suffers the same problems ] (and other female pop-singer BLPs) did. The GAR process on that article, which most (including myself) felt was initially unnecessary and drawn-out, nevertheless led to a much stronger article than existed previously, particularly as it attracted useful external opinion. However, I'd much prefer to not go through that process and you both seem confident that it's unnecessary, so we'll review it informally. I'll go through the rest of the article in the coming days for copy edits, fixes, formatting, etc. I'll also be on hand to assist either of you with the lead or legacy sections, so drop me a talk page note or a note here and I'll assist. {{u\|IndianBio}}: Take as long as you like, the same to you {{u\|XXSNUGGUMSXX}}, if we can complete this by early/mid July I think that would be great! Best, —'']'' \| ] 16:27, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
	::Okay great then, we will have a great team in making this perfect, and maybe FA worthy {{small\|(just kidding)}} :D —] · <sup>] ]</sup> 16:30, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
	:::No problem. I was thinking of taking to FAC eventually, but not for quite some time. I do think, however, it would be nice to have this as "Today's Featured Article" for her birthday some year. '''''] (] • ])''''' 16:35, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
	::::{{ping\|JennKR\|XXSNUGGUMSXX}} lets say we start the trimming of the article here at ]? —] · <sup>] ]</sup> 03:18, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

	== Bisexuality ==

	Adding ]. From page 147 of ]: "Because Madonna has been frank about her bisexual nature". I'm surprised that this isn't mentioned in the article. Its mentioned in ] and its been brought up on these talk pages a few times before. ] (]) 17:03, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
	:Actually holding back after finding the following quote from Madonna herself on page 66 of Madonna as Postmodern Myth: "Whether I'm bisexual or not is of no interest. My position on sexuality is that it is not necessary to have a position, whatever that may be, but it is necessary to be free to do what you want."

	:Additionally the following excerpt from her 1991 interview with ] seems relevant.
	::Madonna: It’s incredible. What I hope is — maybe I’m being too idealistic — that my movie changes things in Hollywood in that direction. But like anything, it’s slow progress, two steps forward, one step back. Even though I dealt with some other-than-heterosexual themes in “Justify My Love,” unfortunately some people just saw it in a superficial way and didn’t really want to deal with it.

	::Advocate: Deal with what?

	::Madonna: The sexual themes in it. It wasn’t just about me. It’s about life, about human nature. I think everybody has a bisexual nature. That’s my theory. I could be wrong.

	::Advocate: Are you as kinky personally as your image makes you seem?

	::Madonna: Well, what do you mean by kinky? I mean, I am aroused by two men kissing. Is that kinky? I am aroused by the idea of a woman making love to me while either a man or another woman watches. Is that kinky? Also, just because I’m presented life in a certain way doesn’t mean I do all these things. It’s just something I choose to express.

	:What does everyone else think? I'm pinging lgbt@lists.wikimedia.org on this, not to ] but to get their opinion as some folks there might be more knowledgeable on the matter and have more sources in either direction than I do. ] (]) 17:12, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

	== Requested move 8==
	{{requested move/dated\|Madonna}}

	] → {{no redirect\|Madonna}} – I'm aware that this is a perennial request and has been repeatedly shot down. The argument that frequently comes up is that ] and ] are more notable. However, the singer's page has been viewed in the last 90 days - about 4 times as much as Mary (where "Madonna" isn't even the common name, as shown by the title and the lead section of that article) and nearly ''19 times'' as much as the art. ] states, "A topic is primary for a term, with respect to usage, if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term." And I think it's pretty obvious looking at the stats that most of our readers are looking for Madonna the singer.

	PRIMARYTOPIC also mentions long-term notability and educational/cultural significance, which I'm sure will be brought up in opposition to this request, but given that the common name for the mother of Jesus, by far, is Mary, and the pageview stats, I think listing the singer as the primary topic with a hatnote at the top linking to Mary and a disambiguation page would be the most appropriate choice. –''''']''''' (] / ]) 18:50, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

			== Argument for the inclusion of "producer" in lead ==
	*'''Support''' - Per ], Misplaced Pages should represent neutrality (no certain religion) and <u>worldwide</u> point of view. shows that more than 50 language-editions of Misplaced Pages use simply "Madonna" to refer the singer, including the world's most-spoken languages such as , , , and . Here in Asia, most people don't even know "Madonna" as the other name of Mary. ] (]) 23:26, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
	:*So our current setup would be highly educational to most people in Asia. ] (]) 00:35, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
	::*It is not appropriate to base primary topics on what ''some editors'' feel our readers should be educated on; it ''is'' appropriate to base it on what readers are most likely to search for. The cultural/educational significance part of PRIMARYTOPIC was addressed in the request. –''''']''''' (] / ]) 00:38, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

			It is my opinion that Madonna's lead sentence should include producer, as she has produced every track on every album of hers since 1986, which marks 33~ years of her producing every song on every album of hers since her third record. This is very notable and should be included in her lead sentence.
	*'''Oppose''' - (1) the "entertainer" (meaning clown? comedian?) is not more notable than all other uses combined, and (2) malformed request, this should be a multimove template to move ] to ]. (3) WikiProject Catholicism should be notified of this move request. ] (]) 23:50, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

			Additionally, Babyface, who co-produced ] with her, said: {{tpq\|"I don't believe anyone who's worked with Madonna would've made a great Madonna song if she hadn't been involved as a writer and producer. We wrote it together. We each brought lyrics and melodies, singing them back and forth. She also brought in the arranger for the strings, which sound amazing."}} https://ew.com/music/babyface-girls-night-out-favorite-female-collaborations-madonna-whitney-houston/ ] (]) 13:31, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
	:*The article for Madonna the singer was viewed 2.43 times more in the last 90 days than everything on the current disambiguation page combined. That increases to 2.64 times when you omit the Beatles song ] (which is unlikely to be known as simply Madonna), and 2.84 when you also omit the other articles related to Madonna the singer (her debut album and the 2001 biography). So while the singer may not be more notable, she is ''clearly'' what people are searching for if they're searching for her page nearly 3 times as much as any other Madonna. And I requested the correct move; requesting ] be moved to ] would make it unclear which "Madonna" should be moved to the primary topic. This move implies that the current Madonna page will be moved to ]. –''''']''''' (] / ]) 00:17, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

			:Not sure how relevant the Babyface quote is or how much weight that carries for including producer here. As far as I can tell, it was previously omitted because Madonna doesn't appear to get as much recognition for this as singing, movies, or even business ventures. However, over 30 years of production work is quite a feat, and I can't think of anybody else who consistently produced or co-produced their own tracks for that long. ] (] / ]) 18:03, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, this is clearly the most common term people are looking for when they search "Madonna". I agree with Bluesatellite on the DAB listing, though In ictu oculi has a point about informing WikiProjects about this. '''''] (] '''·''' ])''''' 23:58, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
			::I would argue that notability wise, her work as a producer is more notable to her career than her acting, as her acting is mainly notable for the many misses in her film career. Whereas people hold her music in pretty high regard ] (]) 04:37, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

			== Semi-protected edit request on 16 December 2024 ==
	:*I will notify the Catholicism project in addition to the Madonna and music projects, so as not to ]. Any editor may feel to notify any other appropriate wikiprojects of this discussion. –''''']''''' (] / ]) 00:17, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

			{{edit semi-protected\|Madonna\|answered=yes}}
	::*Looks like In ictu oculi already got around to notifying WikiProject Catholicism. –''''']''''' (] / ]) 00:19, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
			Madonna has announced on 16th December 2024 that she will be releasing new music in 2025 with Confessions on a Dancefloor producer Stuart Price<ref>https://www.instagram.com/p/DDpfxnmS0_G/</ref> ] (]) 18:35, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
			:Let's wait for further details on this before adding to the prose. That link just gives a vague description. ] (] / ]) 20:14, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
			::I have rewritten it to remove any release information until there's more concrete information from the album's release cycle. —] <sup>] ]</sup> 19:48, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

			== Argument for the inclusion of the Italian IPA pronounciation of "Ciccone" ==
	*'''Support''' Per the reasoning provided in the RM statement, this seems the primary article under the name "Madonna" an not Mary, Jesus' mother. —] · <sup>] ]</sup> 02:09, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

			Hello there, Misplaced Pages users.
	*'''Oppose''' Madonna is the mother of God. The primary topic is ] "Madonna" should redirect to that article, not (The Material Girl) Ciccone's. -- ] (]) 05:17, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
			In my humble opinion, I think that it would be more correct to put the Italian IPA transcription of Madonna's surname, , as her family has got Italian roots (from a village in Abruzzo, more precisely), and so that would be the right way to pronounce her surname - and even, probably, more respectful to her family's history and to her fair amount of relatives who are still in Italy. Currently, the page only shows the American English IPA transcription of Ciccone, I think that the page should show the IPA transcription in both Italian and American English. ] (]) 01:20, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	:*Then why do people most often refer to Jesus' mother as "Mary" and not "Madonna"? '''''] (] '''·''' ])''''' 05:22, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
	::*The mother of whose God? Do you think seven billion people on earth has ''the same'' God? Not even all Christians use "Madonna" to call ''their'' God's mother. Otherwise her page would be titled ], not ]. ] (]) 06:36, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
	:::* Both of you are confusing the most common name for the mother of Jesus with what is the primary topic of Madonna. These are two separate issues. The primary topic of "name X" is not the same thing as the most common name of "topic X". These can be different, as illustrated by ] being the most common name, but the primary topic of ] is the same topic, even though it is ''not'' the most common name. We have ], but that doesn't occupy ] because it isn't the primary topic, but ] doesn't occupy ] either, because it isn't the most common name. This is the same case here. Mary, mother of God, is the primary topic, but the most common name for the topic is "Mary". -- ] (]) 06:52, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
	::::*You're comparing a short-lived, relatively unsuccessful band to a woman who is not just a pop star, but one of the most famous and well-known musicians (and women, for that matter) in history. Madonna ''is'' a name for Mary the mother of Jesus, but it's not her common name. Not even close. –''''']''''' (] / ]) 16:26, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Comment''' this is a malformed request. Unless the nominator wants to merge the entire disambiguation page into a massive hatnote, this is missing the move request for the disambiguation page located at ] -- ] (]) 05:20, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose'''. Misplaced Pages is not meant to be only for 2014 and a little longer. ''The'' Madonna is likely to be of interest much longer, as are Madonna and Child paintings. ] (]) 06:24, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
	:*''The Madonna is '''likely''' to be of interest much longer'' -> ] or ]? This results indicate that the term "Madonna" has widely documented to the singer. ] (]) 06:36, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose'''. Madonna the pop artist is a derivative of the original Madonna and making her the primary topic is just caving in to ] and pop culture. Maybe in 2,000 years time if the singer's still more popular, we should reconsider. --] (]) 07:30, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
	:*There is no consensus that source material (or in this case, who one's name is based on) is automatically the primary topic. –''''']''''' (] / ]) 16:26, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' as pointy, tendentious, recentism. The English Misplaced Pages's usage is also in line with Oxford, MW, Macmillan. -- ] (]) 11:40, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose'''. This is pretty much the textbook example of why the "greater enduring notability and educational value" criterion was added to PRIMARYTOPIC. ] (]) 14:52, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Strong Oppose''' per Jenks24. Pageview statistics are flatly irrelevant in this case. The "greater enduring notability and educational value" criterion weighs incredibly heavily in favor of the Virgin Mary and artistic depictions of her. Mary is the actual PRIMARYTOPIC of the term Madonna. (Since supporters have suggested religious bias might play a role here, I'll add that I am a Buddhist, with no devotional attachment to the religious figure. My only attachment is to a love of history, and it is for that reason alone that I find this request galling and wrongheaded.) ] (]) 15:58, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
	:*I have no doubt that Mary is more culturally and educationally significant than Madonna the Material Girl. But "Madonna" is not what she is commonly known by - Mary is ''by far'' her more common name amongst English speakers. Hence the proposal to mention Mary in a hatnote. –''''']''''' (] / ]) 16:31, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

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This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

Logs and discussions:

Discussions:

RM, Madonna (entertainer) → Madonna (performer), Not moved, 14 January 2007
RM, Madonna (entertainer) → Madonna, Not moved, 5 April 2008
RM, Madonna (entertainer) → Madonna, Not moved, 8 June 2010
RM, Madonna (entertainer) → Madonna, Not moved, 1 August 2012
RM, Madonna (art) → Madonna, Not moved, 6 February 2013
RM, Madonna (entertainer) → Madonna, Not moved, 9 March 2013
RM, Madonna (entertainer) → Madonna Ciccone, Not moved, 15 May 2013
RM, Madonna (entertainer) → Madonna, Not moved, 30 July 2014
RM, Madonna (entertainer) → Madonna (singer), Not moved, 21 August 2014
RM, Madonna → Madonna (disambiguation) (and redirect to Mary (mother of Jesus)), Not moved, 12 May 2016
RM, Madonna (entertainer) → Madonna, Not moved, 18 July 2016
RM, Madonna (entertainer) → Madonna, Moved, 30 July 2020
RM, Madonna → Madonna (entertainer), Not moved, 31 July 2022
RM, Madonna → Madonna (entertainer), Not moved, 17 June 2024

This article has been viewed enough times to make it onto the all-time Top 100 list. It has had 76 million views since December 2007.

This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report 2 times. The weeks in which this happened:

February 8 to 14, 2015 (11th)
March 8 to 14, 2015 (23rd)

Argument for the inclusion of "producer" in lead

It is my opinion that Madonna's lead sentence should include producer, as she has produced every track on every album of hers since 1986, which marks 33~ years of her producing every song on every album of hers since her third record. This is very notable and should be included in her lead sentence.

Additionally, Babyface, who co-produced Take a Bow (Madonna song) with her, said: "I don't believe anyone who's worked with Madonna would've made a great Madonna song if she hadn't been involved as a writer and producer. We wrote it together. We each brought lyrics and melodies, singing them back and forth. She also brought in the arranger for the strings, which sound amazing." https://ew.com/music/babyface-girls-night-out-favorite-female-collaborations-madonna-whitney-houston/ PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 13:31, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Not sure how relevant the Babyface quote is or how much weight that carries for including producer here. As far as I can tell, it was previously omitted because Madonna doesn't appear to get as much recognition for this as singing, movies, or even business ventures. However, over 30 years of production work is quite a feat, and I can't think of anybody else who consistently produced or co-produced their own tracks for that long. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 18:03, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I would argue that notability wise, her work as a producer is more notable to her career than her acting, as her acting is mainly notable for the many misses in her film career. Whereas people hold her music in pretty high regard PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 04:37, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 December 2024

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Madonna has announced on 16th December 2024 that she will be releasing new music in 2025 with Confessions on a Dancefloor producer Stuart Price Finley 2009 (talk) 18:35, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Let's wait for further details on this before adding to the prose. That link just gives a vague description. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 20:14, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

I have rewritten it to remove any release information until there's more concrete information from the album's release cycle. —IB 19:48, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Argument for the inclusion of the Italian IPA pronounciation of "Ciccone"

Hello there, Misplaced Pages users. In my humble opinion, I think that it would be more correct to put the Italian IPA transcription of Madonna's surname, , as her family has got Italian roots (from a village in Abruzzo, more precisely), and so that would be the right way to pronounce her surname - and even, probably, more respectful to her family's history and to her fair amount of relatives who are still in Italy. Currently, the page only shows the American English IPA transcription of Ciccone, I think that the page should show the IPA transcription in both Italian and American English. Luca Bagnoli bis (talk) 01:20, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

https://www.instagram.com/p/DDpfxnmS0_G/

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