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== Semi-protected edit request on 24 September 2024 == | |||
==Strong Bias towards Skeptic Researchers== | |||
{{edit semi-protected|Acupuncture|answered=yes}} | |||
Example at the Efficacy section: | |||
I would like to make some suggestions to the acupuncture page. I do understand it is a contentious topic but believe some added edits and updated references would add better context as the WHO among others is expanding the use of traditonal medicine practices and has added a specific chapter in ICD11 for Traditional Medicine Acupuncture titled TM1 | |||
{{collapse top|collapse long requested changeset}} | |||
'''Change X''' - the theories and practices of TCM are not based on scientific knowledge, and it has been characterized as quackery.] | |||
'''to Y''' – . | |||
Although minimally invasive, the puncturing of the ] with acupuncture needles poses problems when designing trials that adequately ] for ].<ref name="pmid17265547"/><ref name="pmid16783282"/> ] is listed as a concern in the reviews of ]s of acupuncture.<ref name = Colquhoun2013/> '''SKEPTIC POV''' | |||
There is a range of acupuncture technological variants that originated in different philosophies, and techniques vary depending on the country in which it is performed. However, it can be divided into two main foundational philosophical applications and approaches; the first being the modern standardized form called eight principles TCM and the second being an older system that is based on the ancient Daoist wuxing, better known as the five elements or phases in the West. Acupuncture is most often used to attempt pain relief, though acupuncturists say that it can also be used for a wide range of other conditions. Acupuncture is generally used only in combination with other forms of treatment. | |||
Since most trials found "sham" acupuncture may be as efficacious as "real" acupuncture, the validity of traditional acupuncture theories including acupuncture point locations has been questioned.<ref name="Moffet 2009"/> Some research results are encouraging but others suggest acupuncture's effects are mainly due to ].<ref name="Ernst2006"/>'''SKEPTIC POV''' | |||
The global acupuncture market was worth US$24.55 billion in 2017. The market was led by Europe with a 32.7% share, followed by Asia-Pacific with a 29.4% share and the Americas with a 25.3% share. It was estimated in 2021 that the industry would reach a market size of US$55 billion by 2023. | |||
'''Change X''' – ] | |||
It remains unclear whether acupuncture reduces pain independent of a psychological impact of the needling ritual.<ref name = Madsen2009/> | |||
The results of trials researching the ] of acupuncture are variable and inconsistent for any condition.<ref name = Colquhoun2013/>'''SKEPTIC POV''' | |||
'''to Y''' – . Acupuncture is generally safe when done by appropriately trained practitioners using clean needle technique and single-use needles. When properly delivered, it has a low rate of mostly minor adverse effects. When accidents and infections do occur, they are associated with neglect on the part of the practitioner, particularly in the application of sterile techniques. A review conducted in 2013 stated that reports of infection transmission increased significantly in the preceding decade. The most frequently reported adverse events were pneumothorax and infections. Since serious adverse events continue to be reported, it is recommended that acupuncturists be trained sufficiently to reduce the risk. | |||
An overview of high-quality ]s suggested that acupuncture is effective for some but not all kinds of pain.<ref name="pmid21359919"/> An overview of ]s found that numerous reviews have shown little convincing evidence that acupuncture is an effective treatment for reducing pain.<ref name = "Ernst 2011"/>'''SKEPTIC POV''' | |||
'''Change X''' – and many modern practitioners no longer support the existence of life force energy (qi) or meridians, which was a major part of early belief systems.] | |||
Acupuncture is generally safe when administered using Clean Needle Technique (CNT) but there is a low risk of ], which can be serious<ref name="Xu S"/> including death in rare cases.<ref name="Ernst 2011"/>'''SKEPTIC POV''' | |||
'''to Y''' - However, modern research substantiates the effectiveness of Acupuncture. Studies using functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) have shown that acupuncture elicits changes in the brain that correlate with neurological effects. As confirmed by the world-renowned Cleveland Clinic, “Acupuncture affects the limbic and para-limbic networks in the brain and has a deep hemodynamic response, which is influenced by the psychophysical response. Acupuncture also stimulates the nervous system and improves conduction and communication between nerves. This improved functioning of the nervous system stimulates neurotransmitter actions and the release of the body’s natural endorphins and other opioids. For example, serotonin may be released following acupuncture, therefore helping patients feel more relaxed and sustain a sense of well-being that lasts for hours thereafter, if not longer. Research has also shown acupuncture’s ability in relieving myofascial pain by releasing muscular trigger points with ensuing concomitant anti-inflammatory effects.” | |||
5 instances of the skeptic POV dominating the tone, weight 3 references to Ernst, 2 to Colqhoun. These 2 represent the fringe, or outlier POV. If they represented the mainstream, medical POV, then these guys http://www.medicalacupuncture.org wouldn't be around. Where does dry needling, or medical acupuncture fit it? ] (]) 22:21, 9 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
Acupuncture is believed to have originated around 100 BC in China, around the time The Inner Classic of Huang Di (Huangdi Neijing) was published, though some experts suggest it could have been practiced earlier. Over time, conflicting claims and belief systems emerged about the effect of lunar, celestial and earthly cycles, yin and yang energies, and a body's "rhythm" on the effectiveness of treatment. Acupuncture fluctuated in popularity in China due to changes in the country's political leadership and the preferential use of rationalism or scientific medicine. Acupuncture spread first to Korea in the 6th century AD, then to Japan through medical missionaries, and then to Europe, beginning with France. In the 20th century, as it spread to the United States and Western countries, spiritual elements of acupuncture that conflicted with scientific knowledge were sometimes abandoned in favor of simply tapping needles into acupuncture points. | |||
'''Add Y''' – . | |||
{{cot|empty reflist, named not defined refs}}Refs in post (named, undefined{{reflist|close=1}} | |||
{{cob}} | |||
'''Add Y''' – | |||
::Ah? Who cares were or not these guys are around "http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/" Whether or not evidence supports acupuncture has nothing to do with whether or not some physicians do acupuncture. Lots of MDs promote stupid stuff and have non evidence based practice. | |||
::We should be using the original Cochrane reviews IMO rather than this paper ] (] · ] · ]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 22:39, 9 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
: Um, no, that's "strong bias towards reality-based researchers". This is medicine and science we're talking about, any claim has to be proven by its proponents and the more extraordinary it is, the stronger the burden of proof. In medicine, appeal to tradition is tantamount to an admission that it's twaddle. Before the 20th Century we knew next to nothing about human physiology, biochemistry or the mechanism of disease. A system based on the idea that an empirically unverifiable life force flows in empirically unverifiable meridians and is subject to imbalances that can be corrected by inserting needles - oh and by the way ancient texts show this was fleams not needles - could only be anywhere close to right by the most amazing happenstance. In reality, of course, we now know that it doesn't matter where you stick the needle, or even whether you stick it in. That's what we find if instead of asking "how do we show that acupuncture works?", we ask "does acupuncture work?". | |||
: Existence of some kind of trade body does not validate the practice. There are medical homeopaths. That does not make homeopathy any more valid. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 23:05, 9 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
:: We're not talking about homeopathy which, according to my knowledge has no evidence of effectiveness. Also, we're skipping my main point: overuse of skeptic POV at the efficacy section. We're also dismissing an entire system of healing based on our own Western values as opposed to what the Chinese actually think and do. This is called ]. Regardless of the mechanism, why are we using 5 skeptic papers to dismiss the increasing body of literature that suggests effectiveness for specific conditions, such as this new systematic review which states "there is high-level evidence to support the use of acupuncture for treating major depressive disorder in pregnancy." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24761171. The article, like many other CAM articles over-represents Ernst et al. while watering down (or deleting) sources that suggest otherwise. ] (]) 17:39, 10 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::That is a fringe journal written by the trade. Med Acupunct. 2013 Jun;25(3):164-172 is not an independent source on the subject matter. See ]. Cheers. ] (]) 17:45, 10 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::Are you asserting a fact, or your personal belief system? Providing a source would be helpful. There is another systematic review that concludes "Our results are consistent with acupuncture significantly lowers blood pressure in patients taking antihypertensive medications. We did not find that acupuncture without antihypertensive medications significantly improves blood pressure in those hypertensive patients." ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24723957). This and other CAM articles at WP, that have a growing evidence-base, seems to be whitewashing or watering down sources that suggest effectiveness or that contradict the Ernst, whom you acknowledge you're in contact with (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk%3AChiropractic&diff=606080466&oldid=606052541). How are do you explain the fact that it appears that you're acting as a ] for EE? He's directly and personally feeding you with his critical articles offline. Something is definitely awry here. ] (]) 18:05, 10 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::Does Med. Acupunct. have legit peer-review? AIM, it turns out, doesn't, disappointingly: see ]. We have to use good journals, no question. If EBCAM has real peer review, great, let's use it. I'm just real cautious after the AIM experience (good on jps to catch that). --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 19:36, 10 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
'''Change X:''' | |||
(e/c) Some thoughts, and forgive me for talking a bit about the subject rather than the article: | |||
[Clinical practice | |||
{{cot|a bit long; collapsed for readability}} | |||
Acupuncture is a form of alternative medicine. It is used most commonly for pain relief, though it is also used to treat a wide range of conditions. Acupuncture is generally only used in combination with other forms of treatment. For example, the American Society of Anesthesiologists states it may be considered in the treatment of nonspecific, noninflammatory low back pain only in conjunction with conventional therapy. ] to | |||
* 1 is true; study design is confounded by acu being a procedure. I thought that this was something both skeptics and proponents agreed upon (albeit with proponents saying acu is so complex that study design is highly confounded, and the plethora of (-) results are really false negatives aka Type 2 errors). (btw doesn't matter who said it if it's true) | |||
* 2 is certainly true in the literature that MEDRS considers optimum, even though some proponents feel that the false negative caveat mentioned above has been neglected. Note: IMO, it hasn't been neglected as much as proponents say it has. Not when multiple studies show that nonpenetrating needles, or toothpicks etc., function as well as real needles at acupoints. Not when multiple studies show that penetrating needles at nonacupoints (another kind of sham acu) function as well as penetrating needles at acupoints. Granted, there is potential for Type 2 errors when such studies are carried out using naive practitioners who don't know how to needle properly (a concession has been made in order to blind the practitioner). But there have also been studies of this type (penetrating needles at both acupoints and nonacupoints) using trained practitioners (who insert & manipulate needles properly) -- and blinded evaluators -- THAT ALSO SHOW EQUIVALENCE OF THE TREATMENT AND CONTROL GROUPS. GERAC was such a study. This is strong evidence that the verum acupoints studied are not uniquely active. Note also that in such studies, any unblinding would tend to create '''false positives''' aka Type 1 errors. And there have also been studies where ''practitioners'', remarkably, have been blinded through use of ingenious sham needles (note that this just wouldn't work with some practitioners who manipulate needles a lot in order to break up trigger points). Such studies ''also'' have shown equivalence between treatment and control groups. Note again that unblinding (of either the patient or practitioner) would tend to lead to Type 1 errors, not Type 2 errors. | |||
* 3 is true also -- see Cochrane reviews -- and no wonder, given #2 above. It's even true for studies on pain. Now, I would like to see a treatment group comparing real trigger-point release and a control group using some sort of other technique that's equally "noxious" or intense but nonspecific -- say a nice strong "reflexology" session (a nice, twinge-y foot massage, just for good measure avoiding the regions of the foot that are supposed to be reflex areas (per both TCM and Western relexology) for whatever area is being treated with the acupuncture. And then add in *another* treatment group with *both* the acu trigger-point release AND the reflexology. That would tell me something, assuming the control group were really inert. That would help me figure out whether the efficacy for pain seen in the Vickers review is due to verum acupuncture working, or an accumulated bunch of the Type 1, unblinding errors mentioned above. It would also be nice to see a meta-analysis that separated out the results of the sham studies that are prone to the Type 2 and the Type 1 errors, respectively. Bottom line -- still a margin of plausibility for acu working for pain, but the margin has undeniably been growing slimmer over time. Note -- my bias, from my style of treatment which is similar to {{U|DVMt}}'s, is that trigger point release is real, and even some skeptic types like Brangifer have, in the past, spoken positively of trigger point release. But it ''still'' can and should be studied, and if it doesn't hold up, well, what then? | |||
* 4 probably shows a need for the text to be rewritten, using the most up-to-date reviews, and accomodating all their conclusions. Still, both sentences are pretty much true summaries of the literature. | |||
* 5 is true but gives too much weight to DEATH in one sentence. | |||
{{cob}} | |||
Just my thoughts FWIW. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 18:57, 10 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
'''to Y:''' | |||
:I will tell you why the skeptical viewpoint is favored by default in science: ]. ] (]) 01:15, 16 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
Clinical Practice | |||
:: The skeptical viewpoint shouldn't be confused with dogmatic or cynical viewpoint. Misplaced Pages is littered with dogmatic skeptics and cynics which is why these holistic/CAM/traditional/alt-med pages never get past the fundamental issue: what SPECIFIC aspect of practice is considered FRINGE and what specific area of practice is considered MAINSTREAM? The whole thing is bogus nor pseudoscience. That term is loosely thrown and broad here and it does wikipedia a great disservice. It leaves the narrative polarized as though there is no middle ground. Dominance is given to skeptic researchers whose weight is thrown around in a false context. Physiotherapists are lobbying hard in the US to get 'dry needling' rights which is to stick needles in the human body for therapeutic benefit. We need to separate fact from fiction, Western vs. Eastern approaches and present all the reviews as they are, without attempts to delete reviews that are supportive of acupuncture for 'x' diagnosis. Perhaps we should get an ArbCom to review this and chiropractic since the same principles and players are at play. ] (]) 03:08, 16 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
Acupuncture is a form of alternative medicine. It is used most commonly for pain relief, though it is also used to treat a wide range of conditions. Acupuncture is generally only used in combination with other forms of treatment. For example, the American Society of Anesthesiologists states it may be considered in the treatment of nonspecific, noninflammatory low back pain only in conjunction with conventional therapy. Practitioners who practice Acupuncture are trained and take didactical coursework and clinical practice in their education; and, pass the National Certification Commission for Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine (NCCAOM) board exams, or a state-specific licensing exam in California. The Acupuncture training program includes techniques such as cupping, gua sha tui na, moxibustion, herbal medicine, lifestyle and nutrition based on Traditional Medicine principles. | |||
There is current research supporting that acupuncture has efficacy with pain management being the most well-known application. Conceptually, it is believed to stimulate the body's meridians, or energy-carrying channels, in an attempt to correct imbalances and to restore health. These benefits are thought to be derived from the proximity of acupoints with nerves through intracellular calcium ions. This lesson outlines a brief history of acupuncture and how it may be used to treat various types of physical and emotional pain and specific conditions, including overactive bladder and psoriasis. Acupuncture has been demonstrated to enhance endogenous opiates, such as dynorphin, endorphin, encephalin, and release corticosteroids, relieving pain and enhancing the healing process. Of particular note is that Acupuncture is now incorporated by highly-acclaimed Western Medicine providers as part of a treatment plan for numerous conditions. The world-renowned Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center endorses the newly updated Society of Integrative Oncology’s recommendations for acupuncture for breast cancer patients with joint pain. . Medical institutions such as the Mayo Clinic, National Cancer Institute, City of Hope, and Cleveland Clinic also integrate Acupuncture into their patients care programs. ] (]) 19:39, 24 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
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:This is a hodgepodge of content ] verbatim from copyrighted sources. It can't be used. ] (]) 20:04, 24 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Also, {{tq|Historical records as old as 3,500 years demonstrate the effectiveness of Acupuncture}} is invalid reasoning - ] - not consistent with ], to give just one example. --] (]) 06:45, 25 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
== This article is racist == | |||
<s>To begin to work towards neutrality on this article, the introductory paragraphs should be as neutral as possible. I have attempted to make edits in this spirit and have been reverted by multiple by tag-team editors gaming the system, attempting to have me stumble into a three reverts first. I don't see how we can have a true encyclopedia-worthy article with edits such as these. I, therefore propose the following: a completely neutral, matter of fact description of what acupuncture is in the introductory paragraph. Then, creating a criticism section down the article where those who feel passionately that acupuncture is pseudoscientific can have their voices heard. Once we create that section, then perhaps we can positively work towards neutrality in the rest of the article and hope to have the neutral POV tag removed. ] (]) 22:18, 24 May 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sock comments stricken. -- ] (]) 00:01, 2 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
It must be changed. ] (]) 22:14, 23 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:You may want to read ]: skepticism is by default ''the'' scientific position, adopted professionally by all scientists worth their salt. So, accusing us of skeptic bias means accusing us of ], which is pretty germane to a pseudoscience label applied to acupuncture. ] (]) 00:03, 25 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
:Opposing ] such as ] and ] does not make me a racist. Why? {{talk quote| If an Indian, American, British, Nigerian or Brazilian scientist makes an empirical claim about the body, they're expected to prove it, and that proof must be replicable. Why should it be different for Chinese scientists?|WLU}} Quoted by ] (]) 22:16, 23 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::The official Misplaced Pages stance: ]. ] (]) 00:05, 25 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
A difficulty is that quality research is being pulled from the site if it is supportive of the efficacy or biomedical basis for acupuncture. I have listed numerous studies from prestigious universities and research groups pertaining to individual aspects of acupuncture and it continues to get pulled from the page. I suggest that the so-called quack watch bias is extreme and unscientific. The vast quantity of quality of research to have evolved within the last 18 months is scientific. Double blinded, randomized studies using placebo controls have demonstrated important effective aspects of acupuncture. Moreover, there have been numerous secondary studies to supplement the primary studies. I would not be surprised if this comment is pulled. I would list the research but too often I have done this only to find it has been removed. I suggest a second look at the recent science. I am concerned that the skeptic bias on the acupuncture page overlooks modern science. ] (]) 21:04, 31 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
== Edit request on 3 December 2024 == | |||
:::You should take each source to ] and if it stands up to scrutiny there, it should be included. As per the Quackwatch quote I offered on this talk page, TCM is an accumulation of such diverse, bizarre and convoluted viewpoints that one cannot properly do scientific research with its theories. E.g. there has to be some consensus where the acupuncture points are located, otherwise one acupuncturist from town A will say they are in certain place, an acupuncturist from town B will disagree and say there are somewhere else. Till the acupuncture points are identified with certainty there will be no serious research upon acupuncture points possible, since they could be everywhere on the body and if you use a control group to stimulate a not existing acupuncture point, some acupuncturist will say that is a valid acupuncture point, too, so it voids the very definition of controlled experiment. ] (]) 23:07, 31 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
{{cot|title=perennial complaints of 'bias' have been addressed countless times already}} | |||
It is not “neutral” to immediately dismiss acupuncture as “pseudoscience in the first paragraph and subheading. That is an expression of opinion that fails to take into account years of scientific research on the topic accepted by the US NIH and other major health organizations. I recommend that the current “pseudoscience” sentence be supplanted by a sentence stating “The U.S. National Institutes of Health (NIH) states “there’s evidence that acupuncture may have effects on the nervous system, effects on other body tissues, and nonspecific (placebo) effects. (https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/acupuncture-effectiveness-and-safety) The current “psuedoscience” sentence can be attributed to critics of the field, e.g., “Critics have dismissed the scientific research on the effects of acupuncture and characterized it as psuedoscience” <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 18:16, 3 December 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
:Have a look at ], and note that essentially nothing published by the ] - a political department set up to boost alternative medicine, which is /not/ under the supervision of the NIH - is a reliable source. ] (]) 18:53, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Sources on acupuncture with positive results == | |||
::So cherry-picking articles that prove your point of view is a more objective approach than referring to the US NIH as a reliable source? It would be fair to say that critics of acupuncture ''view'' it as psuedoscience after noting that there is significant scientific research showing a range of benefits, accepted by NIH and the increasing number of insurance companies that provide acupuncture coverage for proven purposes, like pain relief. | |||
::But it is highly biased to dismiss the entire field in the first sentences rather than providing a more appropriately balanced and nuanced perspective. I thought Misplaced Pages pages were supposed to be, not for people with axes to grind, but instead for the fair presentation of information for readers to make their own judgments. ] (]) 21:42, 8 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
Greetings! Here are couple of sources dealing with the positive research outcomes with acupuncture that I'd like to suggest to be taken into account in the article: | |||
:::Again, what you just cited is not 'the US NIH', nor is Acupuncure 'accepted by NIH'. Also, if you're looking for balance, you should know that Misplaced Pages doesn't do that, see ]. ] (]) 22:02, 8 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
# : "''Thirty-one studies were included in this review. The majority of included trials comparing true acupuncture and sham acupuncture showed a trend in favor of acupuncture. The combined response rate in the acupuncture group was significantly higher compared with sham acupuncture either at the early follow-up period (risk ratio : 1.19, 95% confidence interval : 1.08, 1.30) or late follow-up period (RR: 1.22, 95% CI: 1.04, 1.43). Combined data also showed acupuncture was superior to medication therapy for headache intensity (weighted mean difference: -8.54 mm, 95% CI: -15.52, -1.57), headache frequency (standard mean difference: -0.70, 95% CI: -1.38, -0.02), physical function (weighted mean difference: 4.16, 95% CI: 1.33, 6.98), and response rate (RR: 1.49, 95% CI: 1.02, 2.17).'' ... ''Needling acupuncture is superior to sham acupuncture and medication therapy in improving headache intensity, frequency, and response rate.''" (Sun, Y., Gan, T. J. (2008). Acupuncture for the Management of Chronic Headache: A Systematic Review. Anesth. Analg. 107: 2038-2047) | |||
::::NCCIH is literally on the NIH website, which is literally part of the HHS website. Not a shocker that the Misplaced Pages page on NCCIH shows the same consistent bias against all alternative medicine approaches demonstrated by this site, regardless of actual research or evidence. But I don’t see how you can deny the reality of a sub-organization being part of its parent organization. | |||
# : "'' A short course of traditional acupuncture for persistent non-specific low back pain in primary care confers a modest health benefit for minor extra cost to the NHS compared with usual care. Acupuncture care for low back pain seems to be cost effective in the longer term.''" (Ratcliffe J, Thomas KJ, MacPherson H, Brazier J. A randomised controlled trial of acupuncture care for persistent low back pain: cost-effectiveness analysis. BMJ 2006;333:626) | |||
::::It is not “false balance” to refer to actual health research that has been reviewed and validated by major research organizations like NIH, WHO and others. It is a matter of telling the story fairly and accurately. | |||
::::And it’s odd that you all seem to believe that health insurance companies are stupid enough to be increasingly providing coverage for practices that you blithely equate with astrology or Tarot card reading without bothering to review the evidence or let others add it. Sad to see Misplaced Pages promoting biased entries and censorship in this manner. ] (]) 02:36, 9 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
I suggest that these findings will be included into the article in order to have a more balanced view on the subject. | |||
:::::The NCCIH is 'literally' a separate institute which does not answer to the NIH director. That's because it was set up as a personal project by a US Senator who wanted an outfit that would validate the scientifically invalid bee pollen treatments he believed in. You are getting basic facts incorrect here, which is not going to be a basis for changes to this article. Some health insurance companies will cover ], too. That does not mean that homeopathy isn't nonsense. ] (]) 02:39, 9 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::Please specify which facts I got wrong. NCCIH is indisputably one of the over two dozen centers and institutes of NIH. (https://www.nih.gov/institutes-nih/list-institutes-centers). Are you saying that the National Cancer Institute or National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases are not part of NIH either and therefore have no validity as sources of information? | |||
Ps. This also intersects with the ] as well, so if you haven't, please take a look at that as well! ;) ] (]) 18:18, 12 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::::Also, to say that NCCIH is illegitimate because Sen. Tom Harkin was its original champion does not make any sense. All agencies of the U.S. Government ultimately derive from Congressional legislation and many are the result of particular politicians championing them. The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, for example, was Sen. Elizabeth Warren’s pet project. Does that make it somehow “political” and therefore illegitimate? ] (]) 02:55, 9 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I've already explained what you're getting wrong, but here it is one more time: The NCCIH is illegitimate because they publish nonsense. What they accept is not 'accepted by NIH' because the rest of the NIH (especially the NIH director) gets no say in the nonsense they publish. By conflating a fringe body with mainstream medical bodies, you are undermining your argument. If you have to cite the NCCIH for legitimacy, that is a sign to everyone else that what you're doing is promoting pseudoscience. We're now just repeating ourselves, so I imagine I will not comment again unless someone new comes up. Do not interpret my silence as agreement. ] (]) 03:05, 9 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:Agree, these are excellent MEDRS's. There's also this (h/t {{U|Puhlaa}}): , a medical guideline from the US Dept. of Veterans Affairs Health Services Research and Development Service. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 02:51, 13 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Yeah, you refused to respond to any of my specific questions or points, so I guess we’re done. Interesting, though, to learn that the National Cancer Institute and all of NIH’s other Centers and Institutes aren’t part of NIH and therefore their work can and should be ignored by Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 03:17, 9 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::] <small>(] • ] • ])</small>, that's just great! It should be definately included in the article. ] (]) 15:26, 13 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::You don't get it. NCCIH is not unreliable because NIH has no power over it. It is unreliable for other reasons, and it '''does not get to suck reputation from the NIH because NIH has no power over it'''. You tried to copy-and-paste the reliability from NIH to NCCIH, and that was refuted. Other centers and institutes are reliable or unreliable for their own reasons. | |||
::Disagreed. We have newer sources for ]. | |||
:::::::::Possibly, the NIH itself will lose reliability from 2025 on because it will be ruled by a quackery proponent who forces it to publish dangerous nonsense. --] (]) 08:15, 9 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::The other source is already in the article. {{cite journal| pmid=23067573 | doi=10.1186/2046-4053-1-46 | pmc=3534620| title=The effectiveness of acupuncture research across components of the trauma spectrum response (tsr): A systematic review of reviews| year=2012| last1=Lee| first1=Courtney| last2=Crawford| first2=Cindy| last3=Wallerstedt| first3=Dawn| last4=York| first4=Alexandra| last5=Duncan| first5=Alaine| last6=Smith| first6=Jennifer| last7=Sprengel| first7=Meredith| last8=Welton| first8=Richard| last9=Jonas| first9=Wayne| journal=Systematic Reviews| volume=1| pages=46|displayauthors=5}} | |||
:I agree. Claiming acupuncture is pseudoscience is a bold non-neutral statement. Misplaced Pages is too biased in this regard and I won't donate a cent to them until they fix this. ] (]) 15:58, 5 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::The cited reviews which we currently use in the article. If there are any missing reviews we should use the reviews directly. ] (]) 03:02, 13 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
::]. It's precisely ''for'' reasons of neutrality that Misplaced Pages is obliged to observe that acupuncture is a pseudoscience. ] (]) 16:13, 5 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::I agree that we should cite individual reviews, but reviews of reviews -- or ], like the VA Evidence Map -- are also considered good MEDRS's. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 18:25, 15 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
:To present that some say it's 'pseudoscience' or 'quackery' without presenting that there are multiple meta-anaylsis studies showing its efficacy is deeply misleading. It fails to show the scientific backing that acupuncture has. A meta-analysis study does not just look at one randomized study or one case report. It is an in depth look at multiple scientific studies. Multiplele meta-analysis studies confirm the benefit of acupuncture. | |||
:::I think you have misunderstood something regarding the publication date of an article. There are currently two articles listed in Acupuncture#Cost-effectiveness, one from 2011 and the other from 2013. The one that I mentioned is from 2012. All of these articles are published by a different set of authors in rather a short period of time, and you can't make a conclusion that those authors who have conducted the latest research would be somehow automatically "the most right". It's typical for human sciences to obtain a large variety of different test results, and that's the reason why a lot of repetition is needed. The latest one available, however, does not signify that it would be somehow more reliable or a better one even. Therefore, it is still very well-grounded to include those two pieces of research in the article. ] (]) 15:26, 13 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
:For example note the study "Acupuncture for chronic pain: update of an individual patient data meta-analysis" Authors: Vickers, A. J., et al. (2018)Published In: The Journal of Pain, 2018. This study clearly demonstrated the efficacy of acupuncture in multiple studies for muscloskeletal, headache and osteoarthritis pain. Full text is available here https://www.jpain.org/article/S1526-5900(17)30780-0/fulltext | |||
::: However, the usual problem applies: what are the chances of someone studying acupuncture in this way, who is not already convinced of its efficacy and seeking to confirm it? Where will negative results get published? How many journals are looking to carry negative results for things that have no plausible mechanism of action anyway? For subjective symptoms, placebo effects, expectation effects, regression to the mean and so on are particularly strong, so do we see much weaker results of objectively measurable outcomes (yes we do) and what does this indicate about whether the intervention actually works (it weakens the conclusions of studies on subjective outcomes). You have to be really careful with reviews like the VA one. They are very often motivated by political pressure for a treatment that has failed to gain acceptance through the orthodox route of unambiguous good quality evidence. It has taken a long time to show that meridians and acupoints are almost certainly irrelevant, and most of the studies involved in these reviews will not have been able to properly blind for whether the needle is inserted or not. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 09:38, 13 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
:To have an accurate article on this subject without giving a profession that medical professionals spend years in education and which multiple scientific studies back these types of articles need to be addressed. | |||
:::::@Guy - Given the numerous results showing little evidence for efficacy, ''somebody'' has to be publishing them, and it's not just Cochrane. You're certainly right about caveats such as blinding and expectation effects, but it's up to reviewers to account for these, right? On the VA source, IIRC it doesn't deviate hugely from other reviews, and one wouldn't expect unanimity. Author bias is possible, but that's speculative; I don't remember any red flags. Seems like yet another meta-analysis. I think it's reasonable to say that if we're going to exclude positively slanted things just because they're positive, then we're not fairly representing the current state of the literature (and I say this as someone who believes that ] and ] shouldn't be taken too far). For example, we saw within the last year both " (Wang et. al.) " and "" (Colquhoun and Novella) editorials in a mainstream journal. (The latter rang truer, but the former didn't really contest a lot of its conclusions.) | |||
:Dismissing such a long-standing practice as quackery is simply not showing the full picture and incredible benefit this medical profession offers the public. ] (]) 16:23, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::As far as why study it at all, one answer I've seen is that it's highly safe and makes people feel better, so the large placebo effect is actually a plus when added to whatever its nonspecific effects may turn out to be. Yes, that would be really perverse logic if used when evaluating a new drug, but the double standard is apparently justified by acu's known lack of side effects and drug interactions. An example of this view is the editorial introduction to the "pro" and "con" editorials above, and I've heard some doctors, whose patients try it and like it, say similar things. Perverse but pragmatic. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 20:01, 15 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::Publication bias? Yes, that might be true, or then it might be not. We are not here to conduct critical evaluation on such things though in Misplaced Pages. There are analytical tools however to evaluate possible publication bias, such as the ''funnel plot'' etc. It's a very interesting issue still; in an ideal case the scientific community will try to falsify the test results. For example, if opponents of some theory would like to falsify the former results, they would naturally have the incentive to re-run the test setting and publish any negative / statistically insignificant results acquired. When it comes to meta-analyses, of course, it is good for oneself to be aware what studies have been included in the meta-analysis, what have been left out, and why possibly? Anyway, that's a whole different field of research (and a lot of work and data collection!) and we are not here to do that in Misplaced Pages. Interesting subject though. ] (]) 15:26, 13 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::Publication bias is not an issue with complementary medicine journals, this also occurs in conventional medicine. Also the suggestion that negative reviews would be buried is pure speculation but there is evidence of this with pharmaceutical companies duping the public . The reality is, acupuncture, like chiropractic, is gaining increasingly researched with better designs and there seems to be a pattern emerging and that acupuncture is useful adjunct with specific diagnoses. This does not validate TCM theory, but it does suggest that needles inserted at various points seems to have a beneficial effect. ] (]) 00:09, 14 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::::: Guy, not only do I agree with the previous 2 comments, I would also point out that actual scientists, people who do science and whose reputations depend on a truthful explanation of science, would never be so cavalier as to assert that ANYTHING has been absolutely firmly established, ESPECIALLY the absence of phenomena based on an absence of evidence. Even Ernst, who is truly on a mission but nevertheless is a true believer in science, does not make the kind of absolute, religious fundamentalist type conclusions you make about the current scientific lack of evidence for some of the effects of acupuncture and TCM. Your appeal to attack any positive reviews for publication bias is absurd considering there is literally no profit-motive (patents) in the acupuncture profession the way there is in the pharmaceutical industry or even in the realm of surgery. Even with the current natural medicine loving culture we have in the states right now, schools of acupuncture are under pressure to reduce tuition and program length due to debt-to-income ratios. Almost nobody gets wealthy doing acupuncture, so who is driving the publication bias you complain about? Are you at the Vioxx page decrying publication bias? How bout Chantix? Cuz those are truly dangerous areas where money talks louder than science. Acupuncture is simply not such an area. ] (]) 07:32, 14 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Ah, a nice dose of common sense! Agreed with the comment above. Some editors are trying to substitute their own personal belief system and white-wash the whole profession or modality as pseudoscientific. With almost 21000 hits at Pubmed (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=acupuncture) is it still really fair to say there is no scientific aspect about the study of using needles to promote positive physiological change? <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 01:02, 16 May 2014 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> | |||
{{od}} | |||
Proper scientists who do real scientists certainly do say that things have been firmly established. The problem here is that there are two parallel threads of research: one conducted by believers, looking to find evidence of the conditions for which acupuncture might work, and the other conducted by non-believers, looking to test the basis of the claims made for and about acupuncture. If you are determined to seek a mechanism by which it works, then you have to allow the possibility that the mechanism is placebo effects, expectation effects and the like: most publications on the mechanisms of acupuncture quietly ignore this rather important question. When you consider that the supposed meridians and acupoints are different between Chinese and Japanese acupuncture, you can't really carry on ignoring this. To quote one source: | |||
{{quote|Research on the nature of acupuncture points and meridians is often difficult to evaluate because of the diverse nature of the claims made, incomplete data provided in published studies and the variety of parameters involved in the assessment of these claims. Many of the studies purporting to have identified acupuncture points or meridians come from China; the role of publication bias in Chinese literature needs to be considered in light of the fact that no trial published in China from 1966 through 1995 found a test treatment to be ineffective. Obvious contradictions exist between current acupuncture practice and the historical record, as well as on the “correct” number of points and meridians reported by current practitioners of acupuncture. From an empirical standpoint—discrete structures such as acupuncture points and/or meridians would revolutionize | |||
the study of anatomy and physiology—no such revolution has occurred. Whatever the clinical efficacy of needling, there is, as yet, no convincing evidence to show that acupuncture points or meridians exist as discrete entities.}} | |||
That seems pretty neutral to me, albeit not to the taste of acupuncturists. It's also in line with the absence of any credible evidence of anatomy associated with the purported meridians and acupoints. | |||
We should not feel threatened by this sort of thing. There's no reason to believe that ancient wisdom is anything other than wrong in medical matters, the cases of historical remedies, diagnoses and treatments that turn out to be both valid and only recently unambiguously shown to be so, are few and far between. We worked out salycilic acid and quinine quite early in the development of modern medicine. In practice, it does not seem to matter where you stick the needles and it does not seem to matter if you actually insert them. Neither of these is at all surprising given the source of both ideas. I think the question of the non-existence of meridians and acupoints is settled, with only the believers continuing to plough that furrow. I don't think this is a particularly controversial view, other than with believers. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 18:35, 16 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
:Who here is discussing about meridians and acupoints? We're talking primarily about systematic reviews of effectiveness. You're conflating theory and practice. You can get good results with a wrong theory. ] (]) 19:29, 16 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
::If there are good results regardless of where you insert the needles, then any idiot could randomly insert needles and claim to provide medical care. Wait, there actually was a MythBusters episode on acupuncture which did precisely this and obtained good results. ] (]) 11:34, 1 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::<blockquote><p>If there are good results regardless of where you insert the needles, then any idiot could randomly insert needles and claim to provide medical care.</p></blockquote> | |||
:::So this proves that you haven't read the sources I provided, really. If you'll take a look, you will see that the places where they insert the needles have been controlled already. I'd be surprised to find peer-reviewed studies where such a preliminary thing wouldn't be taken into consideration even. | |||
:::I don't know about the university where you used to study, Theorgescu, but in mine MythBusters weren't a proper source. Your source based on MythBusters, shall I say, '''busted'''! ;) ] (]) 12:41, 2 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::The argument has been made that Chinese and Japanese acupuncture have vastly different acupuncture points. It could be that nowadays that Chinese acupuncture system is pretty unified, but an argument can be made that it was unified by fiat, namely that Maoist authorities were embarassed by the diversity of Chinese acupuncture systems and have politically decided to teach only one version. In fact, it is hard to see that a medical system enshrined in folksy superstition would produce a clearly identifiable system of acupuncture points, i.e. that acupuncture points could be unequivocally identified through evidence-based medical research, instead of relying upon centuries-old writings for identifying them. E.g. a surgeon knows where to find the liver and this knowledge is objective since there are clear criteria for what is a liver and where to find it inside a body. As far as I know, there are no such clear-cut criteria for establishing acupuncture points otherwise than relying upon folklore. And we know that folklore varies vastly among different regions. ] (]) 18:07, 9 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::: Interesting. This is mostly just speculation on your part but its worth addressing. Its true that the description of acupuncture point location has evolved, but the actual location of major points probably has not. We still use the cun measurement system, which uses divisions of space between anatomical landmarks. What has changed is that the classical texts did not use modern anatomical terminology to describe the points, while modern textbooks do. This is for the sake of accurate and efficient teaching, not "political fiat". There are not really different points in Japanese acupuncture generally, which mostly is rooted in the Nan Jing, a Han dynasty text. There are, however, multiple sub-styles of acupuncture, from various countries, that use unique points chosen with unique criteria. ] (]) 22:12, 9 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
== Cultural Bias == | |||
<s>I propose modifying the article to rid it of cultural bias. By definitively characterizing acupuncture as pseudoscience while using only select Western studies to back up these claims, it becomes quite problematic. If modern, scientific studies are required for the article, perhaps studies mostly conducted in modern-day China, opposed to US/Europe would be a better solution. ] (]) 19:41, 24 May 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sock comments stricken. -- ] (]) 00:01, 2 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
::Please read ]. This is how we determine our refs. ] (] · ] · ]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 20:21, 24 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::<s>My point is that using only modern, western scientific journals to cite claims made in an article on an ancient Eastern healing modality is biased, both selective bias as well as cultural bias. If a credible US publication made one claim and a credible Chinese publication made another, to avoid cultural bias we would have to use the information from the Chinese publication. And, don' t forget, the WHO has considerable data on acupuncture which should be given more weight than US publications.] (]) 21:10, 24 May 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sock comments stricken. -- ] (]) 00:01, 2 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
::::It was previously discussed by ] and others. The lede has a "strong bias towards reality-based researchers". See ]. ] (]) 00:45, 25 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::<s>Reality based researchers? Can you please engage in a discussion without using weasel words? ] (]) 01:41, 25 May 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sockmaster comments stricken. -- ] (]) 00:01, 2 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
:The OP's suggestion sounds like it would actually increase the chance of bias, not reduce it. <code>]]</code> 03:16, 25 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
::If OP could be met with anything other than total dismissal, that would be great. ] (]) 03:24, 25 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::Chairman Mao had a dog in this fight: . this explains the Chinese bias. According to ], Misplaced Pages does not give on medical issues equal footage to science and ideology. ] (]) 12:12, 25 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::<s>And Adolf Hitler helped develop commercial sulfa antibiotics. Your point doesn't have anything to do with the OP's argument, which, as I understand it is that there are high quality studies in acupuncture performed in China and that certain claims can't be made when they're in conflict with data from Chinese studies, which should be given stronger weight. Personally, as a person of mixed Asian decent, this article struck me as xenocentric and even a tad bit racist. While I'm sure Misplaced Pages doesn't exist to coddle everyone's feelings at the expense of quality, I think what has been suggested here is quite reasonable. Studies from today's Chinese researchers would probably be set up and conducted with superior understanding. If you have ever had acupuncture done on you, you understand what I'm saying. One acupuncturist might have excellent technique in needle insertion and stimulation, whereas another is painful and gives you horrible results. Acupuncture is an art-form, and since it originates in China, it stands to reason they would recognize this better. Chinese studies would be more likely to have renowned acupuncturists doing the needling, opposed to Western studies, which might not even use trained acupuncturists at all. ] (]) 12:52, 25 May 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sockmaster comments stricken. -- ] (]) 00:01, 2 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
:::::We base our content on high quality secondary sources published in well respected journals. If there is continued removal of the current high quality sources than a ban or block may be needed. Chinese researchers are more than welcome to publish secondary sources in respected journals. ] (] · ] · ]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 12:59, 25 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::::<s>Woah there, put your gun back into your holster, nobody's saying we should remove high quality sources. The whole point is that certain claims might be disputed when you have two HQ reliable sources with two different conclusions. If that's the case, then can these claims even be made, when one high quality reliable source doesn't support it and happens to be more high quality (conducted in China) than the other, possibly culturally biased source?] (]) 13:34, 25 May 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sockmaster comments stricken. -- ] (]) 00:01, 2 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
:I agree with you Ricflairsbutt and Klocek, there is currently a strong bias in the article, and I hope it can be fixed in the future. I don't see any reason why modern-day Chinese articles would be any worse than Western articles. If somebody wants to conduct statistical studies about possible publication bias (China vs. West), university is the right place that and we will be waiting enthusiastically the fruits of such researches here in Misplaced Pages. However, Misplaced Pages is not the right forum to speculate possible publication bias. So far, I think Chinese articles published in respected journals (Chinese or Western) are just equally good with all the other articles. Personally, I can't any Chinese though ;) ] (]) 17:36, 25 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
== Pseudoscience == | |||
<s>The article calls acupuncture a pseudoscience, but nowhere in wikipedia's guidelines does this seem to be allowed. ] There is no scientific consensus that acupuncture is pseudoscience, therefore, it is classified as a questionable science. ] (]) 12:05, 25 May 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sockmaster comments stricken. -- ] (]) 00:01, 2 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
:The same way, why call astrology a pseudoscience when there are people aiming to transform astrology into hard, empirical science? ] (]) 12:21, 25 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
::If there are high quality reliable sources that say it is a pseudoscience so should we. ] (] · ] · ]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 12:39, 25 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::<s>DocJames, Have you read ? It addresses your point. Just because some high quality reliable resources say it's a pseudoscience, doesn't mean the article can claim it. There is no scientific consensus. Hell, even in the article we have conflicting research and meta-analyses. Acupuncture, therefore falls into wikipedia's classification of questionable science, not pseudoscience. ] (]) 13:11, 25 May 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sockmaster comments stricken. -- ] (]) 00:01, 2 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
::::If there are conflicted sources than we say "X state it is pseudoscience, Y describes it as..." ] (] · ] · ]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 13:13, 25 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::<s>But that's not what the guidelines on Fringe Theories say to do. It says Misplaced Pages's definition of questionable science, opposed to pseudoscience, is that there are conflicted sources. Therefore, to follow Misplaced Pages's guidelines, it would need to read "Acupuncture is a questionable science, with X saying this, Y saying this".] (]) 13:21, 25 May 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sockmaster comments stricken. -- ] (]) 00:01, 2 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
:::::: We follow the sources, and they say pseudoscience. -- ] (]) 17:19, 25 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
<s>I understand that one source says pseudoscience, but Misplaced Pages's guidelines state that the very definition of questionable science is that there isn't scientific consensus and therefore, we cannot broadly and definitively characterize something as pseudoscience. Further, one cannot make a broad claim of consensus with one editorial backing it up.] (]) 18:04, 25 May 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sockmaster comments stricken. -- ] (]) 00:01, 2 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
::Exactly - one editorial expressing an opinion is being used to establish a statement of fact. Its bullshit. Doc James has it right, just say "sos and so says its pseudoscience" - then the notable opinion is included and we don't grossly over-simplify an issue that is obviously not cut and dry (seeing as it has been the dominant subject of debate here and at TCM for what seems like an eternity.) ] (]) 21:19, 26 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::{{quote|TCM theory and practice are not based upon the body of knowledge related to health, disease, and health care that has been widely accepted by the scientific community. TCM practitioners disagree among themselves about how to diagnose patients and which treatments should go with which diagnoses. Even if they could agree, the TCM theories are so nebulous that no amount of scientific study will enable TCM to offer rational care.|Stephen Barrett, M.D.|Be Wary of Acupuncture, Qigong, and "Chinese Medicine" }} | |||
:::Misplaced Pages sees Quackwatch as an authoritative source for such claims, so, again it is a fact that acupuncture and TCM are pseudoscience. ] (]) 21:37, 26 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
{{quote|In Taiwan to a quarter of traditional Chinese medicines there were seemingly added standard medicines (which are available on prescription). Among them there were dangerous substances, such as phenytoin (an anti-epileptic), glibenclamide (lowers blood sugar) and corticosteroids.|prof. dr. Martijn B. Katan|Wat is nu gezond? 1st ed., p. 146}} | |||
::::Quoted by ] (]) 02:03, 27 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::: Yeah, we all know what quack watch says and that SOME people here consider it a reliable source. That misses the point. Your second post doesn't make a lick of fucking sense at all.] (]) 06:51, 27 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::::You think any source you disagree with is ? ] (]) 07:13, 27 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::::::The Katan quote (which I have translated from Dutch) simply says that some TCM medicines are effective because they incorporate allopathic drugs. It says this and that such substances are dangerous when added in tea and herbs, instead of being prescribed by a MD and properly dosed. ] (]) 12:48, 28 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::An alternative translation is: | |||
{{quote|In Taiwan a quarter of traditional Chinese medicines were found to apparently incorporate (prescription) drugs. Among them there were dangerous substances, such as phenytoin (an anti-convulsive), glibenclamide (lowers blood sugar) and corticosteroids.|prof. dr. Martijn B. Katan|Wat is nu gezond? 1st ed., p. 146}} | |||
:::::::::Quoted by ] (]) 16:41, 28 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
===Quackwatch as a Source=== | |||
<s>Stephen Barrett is a de-licensed MD who failed his board exam. On what planet are his words regarding anything medically related considered reliable? ] (]) 20:54, 27 May 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sock comments stricken. -- ] (]) 00:01, 2 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
:Wow, since when QuackWatch has been a peer-review journal? ] (]) 04:08, 28 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
::Barrett de-licensed is an old canard, it has been debunked over and over. ] (]) 12:44, 28 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
==Opening paragraph== | |||
<s>In an effort to resolve the neutral POV tag, I had made several high quality, well-referenced changes to illustrate other POV's. These high quality edits were reverted wholesale, without any discussion by what appears to be a team of editors. I would like to open discussion to resolving this issue. ] (]) 17:07, 25 May 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sockmaster comments stricken. -- ] (]) 00:01, 2 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
: Thanks for not continuing an edit war. That never works. I have left some instructions about edit warring and BRD on your talk page. | |||
: Discussion of each change is the way to go. You're editing the ], and the lead should always ''follow'' changes to the body. Changes to the body will need to be accepted first, and sometimes that will entail minor tweaks of the lead, but not always. That's why changing the lead is often very controversial, so it's really a bad place to start, especially when you're deleting long-standing content which is based on properly sourced content in the body of the article. | |||
: Much of your editing looks like special pleading and whitewashing, so be careful. Start here by suggesting an edit, including its source. Then we can work on it. A consensus version has the advantage of being accepted by more editors, who will also protect it. -- ] (]) 17:17, 25 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
:: I couldn't find anything wrong with the sources you used and indeed, they seem to be of a high quality. I can't see any reason why the edits you made couldn't be remained at the article, but I agree with BullRangifer: maybe you could start from the body of the article first? As long as the source doesn't fail, it is more than welcome to be used in the article. ] (]) 17:23, 25 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::<s>Thanks for your suggestion and for confirming the sources I used. I'll take your advice and add to the body first. ] (]) 17:59, 25 May 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sockmaster comments stricken. -- ] (]) 00:01, 2 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
I agree that some of your sources ''might'' be okay, but when you make so many edits, which also include deleting properly sourced content you don't like, then it's much easier to start all over and take it a bit at a time, using discussion to guide us. -- ] (]) 17:41, 25 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
:<s>The "properly sourced" content I think you're referring to is one editorial from Nature magazine which is supposed to support the claim that "acupuncture is largely considered to be pseudoscience. One editorial cannot support such a broad consensus, especially when, even in this very article, there are contradictory claims. That is why I deleted it. Furthermore, here are the ] regarding the use of the term pseudoscience:</s> | |||
<s>Pseudoscience: Proposals which, while purporting to be scientific, are obviously bogus may be so labeled and categorized as such without more justification. For example, since the universal scientific view is that perpetual motion is impossible, any purported perpetual motion mechanism (such as Stanley Meyer's water fuel cell) may be treated as pseudoscience. Proposals which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community, such as astrology, may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience."</s> | |||
<s>"Questionable science: Hypotheses which have a substantial following but which critics describe as pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect; however it should not be described as unambiguously pseudoscientific while a reasonable amount of academic debate still exists on this point."</s> | |||
<s>Given these guidelines, the term shouldn't be used. Clearly, with many high quality studies, meta analyses and scientific support of acupuncture's efficacy, it should undoubtedly be termed "questionable science" instead of pseudoscience. Anyway, that's the reason for my removing that statement and source. ] (]) 17:57, 25 May 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sockmaster comments stricken. -- ] (]) 00:01, 2 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
::Issues include: 1) use of non pubmed indexed sources 2) use of the journal medical hypotheses that is not a reliable source 3) one of the publications was retracted 4) issues with caps 5) issues with the refs being poorly formatted so that other editors have trouble following them up | |||
::Klocek you are at 5 reverts and have a warning on your talk page. ] (] · ] · ]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:49, 25 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::<s>no, I'm at 2 reverts for the content under discussion, and so are you. ] (]) 18:53, 25 May 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sockmaster comments stricken. -- ] (]) 00:01, 2 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
::::<s>And regarding the issues you cited, 1) we have a non pubmed source in the lead, nature magazine, an editorial at that, as the support for "largely considered pseudoscientific" and yet you reverted my improvement. Clearly, you could care less about pubmed sourcing and only about bullying me. 2) so medical hypothesis isn't reliable. There's plenty of additional citations provided. Perhaps you could edit it out specifically instead of making broad wholesale reverts to my work. 3) again, see 2, 4) and again 5) and again. Perhaps you need to read Misplaced Pages's guidelines on making helpful edits. ] (]) 19:00, 25 May 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sockmaster comments stricken. -- ] (]) 00:01, 2 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
:::::Just to clarify are you stating that ] agrees with your proposed edit? ] (] · ] · ]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 19:06, 25 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
<s>Yes, that user made the suggestion of changing the body instead of the lead, and did not object to the sources...same with ] ] (]) 19:17, 25 May 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sockmaster comments stricken. -- ] (]) 00:01, 2 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
:<s> And I noticed you didn't reply to any of my retorts. It would be nice if you would return the kindness I presented to you and use this talk page for civil debate. ] (]) 19:20, 25 May 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sockmaster comments stricken. -- ] (]) 00:01, 2 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
::Okay lets wait for BullRangifer's reply. ] (] · ] · ]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 20:06, 25 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
::: While I did mention the primacy of article content before the lead, I also wrote this, as well as clear advice on Klocek's talk page: | |||
:::* "Start here by suggesting an edit, including its source. Then we can work on it. A consensus version has the advantage of being accepted by more editors, who will also protect it." | |||
::: There is nothing in my comments which allows for continued edit warring, so the block for edit warring is entirely proper. Lack of collaboration is part of the problem here. Trying to force one's edits through, against the objections of other editors, never works. It's a common mistake made by newbies. I hope that Klocek learns something from this. One can even be 100% correct, and even have all the RS on one's side, and still get blocked. I'm not implying that's the case here, but telling it like it is. One ''must'' collaborate or one has no success. -- ] (]) 20:54, 25 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::: Brangifer your complaints about this editor's practices sound much more applicable to the editing of Quackguru ] (]) 07:01, 27 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::You have a lot of . ] (]) 07:15, 27 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::: Um, was my edit summary not clear?] (]) 17:30, 27 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I did add in-text attribution to the lede. Stop making excuses. ] (]) 17:32, 27 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::::: Oy, mea culpa. I assumed it was the same block of text we have been arguing about, and didn't realize you had edited it. My apologies.] (]) 17:42, 27 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::There was already enough (characterized) in the lede before your change. The body makes it clear it was ''Nature'': "Nature found TCM to be largely pseudoscience, with no valid mechanism of action for the majority of its treatments." ] (]) 18:18, 27 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
Well, given that we don't really even have consensus to use the word in the lede at all, it is at least a minimally acceptable compromise to include it, with clarity about it originating in Nature.] (]) 00:07, 28 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
:I tried to reorganize this section as bit as it was all over the place and jumped too quickly into criticisms - they should be noted, but not as quickly as the third sentence of a large article. The efficacy/criticisms could still be reworked a bit for flow, but i think this is step in the right direction at least! ] (]) 19:28, 1 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
== Original research? == | |||
This change was . CONCLUSION:There was '''little''' evidence that different characteristics of acupuncture or acupuncturists modified the effect of treatment on pain outcomes. ] (]) 19:54, 25 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
: It's not only OR, but actually devious. We follow the sources, and this one said "little". Good catch. -- ] (]) 20:56, 25 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
Sourced text was replaced with ] (]) 15:39, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
Milliongoldcoinpoint claims "" but the text was not in quotation marks.. Here is the source. I could the claim. Did I miss something? ] (]) 17:24, 28 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
==About nature source== | |||
I check the source from nature which define the TCM as pseudoscience. This source is . Actually this article tries to refute another article which is also from nature . The second one describe some opinion, one of them is to use system biology as a way to assess the usefulness of tcm. I just wonder whether it is good to use one article in nature as the view of nature journal while ignore others which are also from nature. Despite article which is also from nature 448 in 2007, I see another article from journal nature which describe the usefulness (for dementia) of TCM. This article was published in 2010 and stated " Sound therapeutic effects promote more scientists, domestic and abroad, to study extracts from herbal medicines. Today, a great number of compounds from herb extracts have proven to be multi-targeted, low toxicity and potent in alleviating dementia." It seems there are many articles which present different idea in nature . I wonder whether to add all of these sources from nature to keep neutrally. I hope someone can check all of these articles from nature journal . Now I think one editorial in nature is a neutral description in this article but whatever, add the website link for the reference is a good way for reader to follow up the source. | |||
:: Thank you, you make an important point - does one article constitute the consensus view of Nature on the subject? Does Nature's view constitute the consensus of something larger (the "scientific community", the "medical profession")? Even if it did (hint, it doesn't), would that justify stating the opinion as fact? No. This is a case of cherry picking and blowing one statement way out of proportion leading to a weight problem, and a POV problem. Just state, in the body of the text, "An editorial in Nature labeled TCM pseudoscience" - problem solved. ] (]) 17:36, 27 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::<s>I thought the sentence needed to be modified slightly because, as you pointed out, Nature magazine hasn't completely come to the conclusion that it's pseudoscience. The article cited actually was, as you said, a rebuttal to another article in Nature that was supportive of acupuncture. ] (]) 20:50, 27 May 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sock comments stricken. -- ] (]) 00:01, 2 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
:: I am the user who start this section. My point is to neutrally indicate that“this is one editorial in Nature” because natural magazine has many articles which present different viewpoint.In the first paragraph, I added many articles from nature which have other view. For example, one of this described the effective of TCM for dementia. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 21:31, 4 June 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
:::<s>I noticed your post, but unfortunately the article you cited was on herbal treatment of dementia. I added an article from Nature on acupuncture which should meet your needs. ] (]) 22:33, 23 June 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sock comments stricken. -- ] (]) 06:14, 30 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
==Extremely== | |||
Were in the text did this work come from in this edit ? Please provide a direct quote from the text as I do not see it. ] (] · ] · ]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 14:37, 2 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
== Original research again == | |||
"Thirty-eight acupuncture trials were identified. Most studies (22/38 = 58%) found no statistically significant difference in outcomes, and '''most''' of these (13/22 = 59%) found that sham acupuncture may be as efficacious as true acupuncture, especially when superficial needling was applied to non-points." The recent edit replaced source text with . The source does not claim 58% found that sham acupuncture may be as efficacious as true acupuncture. The "majority of" is the correct explanation. ] (]) 20:47, 22 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:<s>How would you suggest it read? When you made your edit, it read "The majority of studies" which could imply that the majority of all studies everywhere state that sham equals acupuncture and that's not the case at all. Reading it again, I see the outcomes state that only 13 of the 38 studies found that sham equals acupuncture, so there is no way the word most could be used as far as I can see. ] (]) 21:23, 22 June 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sock comments stricken. -- ] (]) 06:14, 30 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
::<s>If we do the math, 13 out of 38 actually equals 34%. If we changed 58% to 34% would that be original research, or should we just state 13 out of 38 instead?] (]) 21:26, 22 June 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sock comments stricken. -- ] (]) 06:14, 30 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
:::It is not our job to question reliable sources. "The majority of" is sourced per ]. It should read . It is better to summarise the source. I added the specific numbers to the body of the article. ] (]) 21:47, 22 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::<s>It is our job to quote sources accurately and not out of context. To say "the majority of studies" without saying that it is the majority of studies within only one review, is misleading. And as a matter of fact it's not even the majority of studies within that one review. They have two sections of statistics, one group and one group within that group. Again, how should it read? I'm more than willing to compromise here, but let's not take what a source says out of context. ] (]) 21:49, 22 June 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sock comments stricken. -- ] (]) 06:14, 30 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
:::::"'''A systematic review''' found that the majority of "sham" acupuncture..." The text is currently not misleading. | |||
:::::The text is sourced but you are questioning the source again. To say "the majority of" is accurate according to the source. ] (]) 21:55, 22 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
<s>Well, not to quibble, but now it reads as though that one systematic review stated that the majority of all sham studies equal acupuncture. That's not the case. The majority of the studies they reviewed stated that, not the majority of all studies. Do you think it might read better if we state, "One systematic review found that the majority of the trials in the review stated sham acupuncture..." ?] (]) 22:14, 22 June 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sock comments stricken. -- ] (]) 06:14, 30 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
:A systematic review found that the majority of "sham" acupuncture may be as efficacious as "real" acupuncture, and, therefore, the validity of traditional acupuncture theories including acupuncture point locations has been questioned. The text is accurate but you are still questioning the source. There is no need to add extra words to question the source. | |||
:Other sources are summarised the same way in this article. For example: A 2011 Cochrane review found that there is insufficient evidence to determine whether acupuncture is an effective treatment for cancer pain in adults. ] (]) 22:30, 22 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::<s>Well, I don't want to make a bigger issue out of it than it deserves. We can leave it as you edited for now. I still hold that it's a fairly unique source in that there are two levels of data in the conclusion, and we aren't even accurately representing what the source state but rather making broad sweeping statements about sham studies in general. But I'm curious what other editors have to say. ] (]) 23:59, 22 June 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sock comments stricken. -- ] (]) 06:14, 30 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
::: We should use the actual numbers, and clearly state which review those numbers come from.] (]) 14:24, 23 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:I have to agree with QuackGuru here, it does not say that 58% of trials found that "sham" acupuncture may be as efficacious as "real" acupuncture. However, it neither says that "the majority of sham acupuncture may be as efficacious as real acupuncture". What the source says is that 58% were '''statistically insignificant'''. Therefore, such conclusion cannot be made (for the obvious lack of statistical significance). | |||
:When studying further these statistically insignificant studies (22 studies which is the majority, while only 16 could demonstrate statistical significance), however, "sham acupuncture may be as efficacious as true acupuncture". We cannot make a conclusion though that "the majority of sham acupuncture may be as efficacious as real acupuncture". That doesn't override the statistical insignificance. ] (]) 15:14, 23 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::I'd like to see the more detailed methodology, but in my understanding "most of these (13/22 = 59%) found that sham acupuncture may be as efficacious as true acupuncture" means that in those 13 studies out of 22, sham acupuncture was as efficacious as - or even more efficacious than - true acupunture . Therefore, I'd suggest that let's keep it '''A systematic review found no statistically significant difference between true acupuncture and sham acupuncture...''' etc. etc. ] (]) 15:38, 23 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::<s>What about if we quote all the relevant numbers? It could then read, "In a systemic review, 13 of 22 studies found that sham may be..."?] (]) 15:53, 23 June 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sock comments stricken. -- ] (]) 06:14, 30 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
:::: I would prefer that - give the results clearly, thus not allowing a POV summary statement either way.] (]) 15:57, 23 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::<s>Ok I changed it, and this looks perfect now. Thanks for everyone's input!] (]) 18:39, 23 June 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sock comments stricken. -- ] (]) 06:14, 30 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
I restored it to what it was before will this is discussed. This is not need "13 of 22 studies found that". Additionally we should be paraphrasing instead of using quotes as our text is supposed to be CC BY SA. ] (] · ] · ]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 20:37, 23 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::We could shorten to "A systematic review found no difference between true acupuncture and sham acupuncture..." ] (] · ] · ]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 20:39, 23 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::I agree. '''No difference''' doesn't mean that there weren't any difference in the studies at all; what it means is that even though there was difference, it wasn't statistically significant. ] (]) 20:51, 23 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::Yes, the lede should be a summary. I reverted the to discuss first. I'm not sure which version is better. The extreme low level details about the numbers do not belong in the lede or the body. ] (]) 20:57, 23 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::I reverted it back to your edit which I found was good. I have no opinion about the lede or body, though. Sometimes I'm just scared that too much information is packed up to the lede, but I don't have a comment on that on this one. ] (]) 21:03, 23 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::I reverted it back to your edit which I found was good. I have no opinion about the lede or body, though. Sometimes I'm just scared that too much information is packed up to the lede, but I don't have a comment on that on this one. ] (]) 21:03, 23 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
<s>I would agree that it's not all that bad now, it's not completely out of context like it originally was. But the source uses the word "may" instead of just the current, definitive "no difference." I believe they might have worded it such to reflect the substantial number of studies that said otherwise. It wasn't 100-0, or even 90-10, it was 13-9. To keep all editors happy, I'm changing it to read, "A systematic review found there may be no difference between true acupuncture and sham acupuncture..."] (]) 21:30, 23 June 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sock comments stricken. -- ] (]) 06:14, 30 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
:You added again. ] (]) 23:56, 23 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::<s>Could you please explain how it is OR when the source clearly says, "and most of these (13/22 = 59%) found that sham acupuncture may be as efficacious as true acupuncture, especially when superficial needling was applied to non-points." It says "May be" so I think not saying it is OR. I'm afraid we have to agree to disagree.] (]) 01:28, 24 June 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sock comments stricken. -- ] (]) 06:14, 30 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
:::The source does say "that sham acupuncture '''may be''' as efficacious as true acupuncture" but we are not discussing that . We are summarising a different point in the lede. | |||
:::''A systematic review found that the majority of "sham" acupuncture may be as efficacious as "real" acupuncture, and, therefore, the validity of traditional acupuncture theories including acupuncture point locations has been questioned.'' | |||
:::If you want to add "may be" to the lede this text is supported by the source. ] (]) 01:51, 24 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::"''...sham acupuncture may be as efficacious as true acupuncture...'' <- and there was found no statistically significant differences in those studies (n=22). Therefore, one cannot make any conclusion from that. ] (]) 11:45, 24 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
<s>I'm not sure I'm following you. You said "may be" is in the source. Why do you object to using it in the lede?] (]) 03:34, 24 June 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sock comments stricken. -- ] (]) 06:14, 30 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
:The part "may be" is sourced for the text the majority of "sham" acupuncture "may be" as efficacious as "real" acupuncture. The part there "" no difference between "true" acupuncture and "sham" acupuncture is not supported by the source. These are two separate points. ] (]) 03:42, 24 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::<s>Thank you for clarifying. To me, saying "as efficacious" and "no difference" are the exact same thing. I'm curious what others think?] (]) 04:09, 24 June 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sock comments stricken. -- ] (]) 06:14, 30 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
==Popular press peice== | |||
This is a popular press peice Thus removed. ] (] · ] · ]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 22:42, 23 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::Does not appear to be pubmed indexed or a review. ] (] · ] · ]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 22:43, 23 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
This text was supported by a pubmed indexed source ] (] · ] · ]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 22:50, 23 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::<s>I thought it was a secondary source since the article commented on pubmed cites, but I agree the bar must be higher for this article. There are non pubmed, non review sources everywhere. I removed one above it and think I'll get to work on some more!] (]) 23:01, 23 June 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sock comments stricken. -- ] (]) 06:14, 30 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
:::: Careful fellas, there's tons of these kind of sources in here. We need to be clear about what kind of text can be supported by such sources and what cannot. I would recommend identifying the text you feel is unsupported by reliable sources and discussing here. ] (]) 23:19, 23 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
<s>Doctor James, you removed this edit was supported by these two pubmed indexed sources At the top of this page, it says I should assume good faith. I will also assume good faith for this edit I had to correct of yours here ] (]) 01:41, 24 June 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sock comments stricken. -- ] (]) 06:14, 30 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
: <s>Since I added a well sourced article from Nature which was backed up by two pubmed indexed sources, and it was removed, I propose adding it again. Are there any objections to its inclusion?] (]) 13:13, 24 June 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sock comments stricken. -- ] (]) 06:14, 30 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
::Why was it removed? What did the edit summary say? -] (]) 13:55, 24 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::<s>Hello, the edit summary said "trimmed primary source". Doc James removed it, and you can read his reasoning above, and my reasoning below that.] (]) 14:15, 24 June 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sock comments stricken. -- ] (]) 06:14, 30 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
:::: Well, the Nature article looks ok as a primary source to support clearly-attributed statements. We've been using other articles from the same source, why is it "popular press" now? ] (]) 16:54, 24 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
<s>Since there was support and no objections to it, and since we all agree that Nature is a worthy source, I put it into the article. ] (]) 03:37, 25 June 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sock comments stricken. -- ] (]) 06:14, 30 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
::Here is the source . It is not pubmed indexed. It is a "news" article. Not a review article. ] (] · ] · ]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 03:56, 25 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::Agree with JMH. Its a news article written by a freelance journalist (do a search on the author's name). This is very different from a peer reviewed review article written by an expert in the field. ] (]) 04:17, 25 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::<s>Well, it did meet Misplaced Pages's secondary source criteria for medical articles, but if the editors here feel everything needs to be peer reviewed and backed w a pmid,that's fine too, I added another nature source that has a pmid. Thanks for the input. ] (]) 05:05, 25 June 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sock comments stricken. -- ] (]) 06:14, 30 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
:::::Not sure . The source says: "The editor of Nature China reports on his first visit to a traditional Chinese medicine practitioner to find out how this ancient practice is dispensed in the twenty-first century — and to see if anything can be done to relieve his back pain." ] (]) 07:07, 25 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::So far the . ] (]) 21:04, 25 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
As long as we are not applying a double standard. I have been complaining about articles like the Matuk article being used to say TCM is not concerned with anatomy, or the Slate article being used to say that Mao invented TCM. Those were (wrong, and) of the same or lower level of reliability as this Nature article. Please be careful to not be cherry picking here.] (]) 16:09, 25 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:Mao invented TCM? LOL! What is this, somebody trying to open the gate for conspiracy theories to Misplaced Pages perhaps? =D ] (]) 16:20, 25 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
== Original research in the article again == | |||
Background information from recent misleading edits or replacing source text with OR: '''Milliongoldcoinpoint''' recently made some controversial edits. The . The is OR. This edit added to the lede when the lede . The part is . Sourced text was repeatedly deleted source material but there was a . There is a new account making controversial edits and there is another account that are doing very similar things to this article like adding or to the lede. '''Middle8''' also recently made some controversial edits. ]Do I hear ]? | |||
The source says: "Serious complications after acupuncture continue to be re-ported. Many are not intrinsic to acupuncture, but caused by mal-practice of acupuncturists. This might explain why surveys of adequately trained therapists failed to yield such complications. Most of the case reports originated from Asia (Tables 2–4), possibly reflecting the fact that, in Asia, acupuncture is more widely practised than elsewhere. Alternatively, it might be due to more Asian therapists being poorly trained." | |||
The lede says" "Serious adverse effects (including death in rare cases) are known, but have not been reported in surveys of adequately-trained acupuncturists." | |||
The body says "A 2011 overview of systematic reviews (without language restrictions) found that serious complications following acupuncture have continued to be reported, but not in surveys of adequately-trained acupuncturists." | |||
There are problems with the changes. For example, the part "but have not been reported in surveys of adequately-trained acupuncturists." and | |||
"but not in surveys of adequately-trained acupuncturists." seems like original research. | |||
Was sourced text ? We are going to have to review these recent edits. For example, see this . ] (]) 16:30, 24 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
: Just use the actual friggin numbers from the source! Why are we still discussing this? Why are you edit warring AGAIN? Over such a minor issue. Sheesh. ] (]) 19:51, 24 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
: * QuackGuru, please do have the respect to explain why some specific edit(s) is/are OR in your opinion. Otherwise, we can't really be of any assistance. | |||
: * I find Middle8's edits to improve this article. No complaints about those IMHO. ] (]) 20:31, 24 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
: @ QG, you said that my wording "seems like original research", and you ask if sourced text was used. Have you compared my edits with the source? I used the very same wording, with only minor changes in grammar (for the sake of good prose) that I do not believe affect the meaning. Ernst says that serious complications (serious adverse effects) have not been reported in surveys of adequately-trained acupuncturists. That's what the article said too, both before and after my edits, which were meant to clarify and highlight this important aspect of safety. I also followed Xu's wording. No need to ask whether or not I might have, just look it up. And just what do you mean by "the duck test"? Are you accusing me of sock- or meat-puppetry with this article? --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 06:38, 25 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::Ersnt said "Many are not intrinsic to acupuncture, but caused by mal-practice of acupuncturists. This '''might''' explain why surveys of adequately trained therapists failed to yield such complications. I think you did add OR/misleading text to the article and low level details to the lede. There has been too many recent controversial edits by more than one account on this article. I didn't notice a serious problem with the previous text. ] (]) 06:59, 25 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::That doesn't support your OR claim in any way (let alone your implicit sock accusation). Ernst's quote states as fact that "surveys of adequately trained therapists failed to yield such complications". Also he says that this fact may or may not explain his observation about malpractice, but whether it does or not, it's still a statement of fact in a MEDRS, and there's no OR. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 07:32, 25 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::"Serious adverse effects (including death in rare cases) are known..." The wording can be improved. Saying Serious adverse effects are known does not tell the reader anything. Putting text in parentheses (including death in rare cases) is weird in the lede. | |||
::::When Ersnt said it ''might explain...'' it that does not mean it is now fact. The do not belong in the lede. Ersnt never said '''but''' the surveys...etc. ] (]) 07:50, 25 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::: Again, "might explain" part doesn't affect the truth-value of "surveys of adequately trained therapists failed to yield such complications". The latter is a statement of fact and not misleading. Please move on. As for "Low level detail", that's something you often bring up but it isn't in WP:PAG; please support your argument with something that is. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 08:25, 25 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::: I still can't find any OR in Middle8's edits, and I have to disagree with QuackGuru here: I think the edits helped to improve the article. ] (]) 10:21, 25 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::::There but it was . ] (]) 20:51, 25 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Surveys are not a great source of evidence. Thus we should separate these points into two sentence. Not notable enough for the lead. ] (] · ] · ]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 21:00, 25 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Oops, yep I realized this after looking at the sources Ernst cites for his statement (papers by himself a/o White). When he said "surveys" he was talking about ''surveys of practitioners'' as opposed to literature surveys of case reports involving adequately-trained acu'ists. thanks for fixing. .... oops, I see there's been an edit war, anyway am going to go back to the correct version. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 04:42, 26 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::It looks like editors followed Middle8's change to the lede (without any rationale explanation). Middle8 previously told me to . This was deleted. The part "" makes absolutely no sense. ] (]) 04:58, 26 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::Time to move on QG. Your objection was vague and unclear, and you were IDHT-ing which is why I said move on. Doc James by contrast identified the problem and was clear and easy to understand. Herbxue has a right to remove his own comment, so why are you bringing it up? | |||
:::::::::::Roxy, please ].. That said I am now going to IAR and comment on contributors: it's sad the way editors line up over perceived ideologies, especially in the "borderline" areas like acu and chiro that are mixed bags. Whether editors support or oppose an edit, it's not a good idea to take a position reflexively without reading the source. I can tell that Doc James both read and understood the source I used but it's not clear who else did, so, just some food for thought. All that was needed was for somebody to say "can someone post an excerpt of the original" and we probably would have figured it out without an edit war. /grumbling --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 06:15, 26 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
==Supporting text== | |||
This was added "However, another editorial in Nature found the actual practice of TCM to be modernized, well accepted, and scientific". A few issues | |||
# Where does it state it is an editorial? | |||
# What quotes from teh article supports the text in question? ] (] · ] · ]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 21:20, 25 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:I could not verify the . ] (]) 04:41, 26 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::<s>I have full text access to Nature and many other publications where I work. And I posted it after having read Misplaced Pages's policy on journal sources that require paid access; namely, that these articles are allowed, but full or partial text is preferred. I could post what the editorial says verbatim, but would I be correct in saying that would violate copyrights?</s> | |||
::<s>But for all you naysayers, I will post this critique from sciencebasedmedicine, who criticized Nature and the very editorial I cited, as I won't be back on wikipedia until the weekend, so we can hash out the details then. ] (]) 14:18, 26 June 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sock comments stricken. -- ] (]) 06:14, 30 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
:::I got a copy of the editorial, and it's report of a visit to a TCM clinic for back pain. It might be usable to describe what such a visit is like. I don't agree (at all) that it supports the sentence "However, another editorial in Nature found the actual practice of TCM to be modernized, well accepted, and scientific". <small>(aside: I also don't see how it rises to the level of "atrocities against skepticism and science" that Gorski calls it, but then blogs don't get as many readers without a certain level of drama.)</small> --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 08:49, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::<s>Is everyone sure they are looking at the correct article?? Felix Cheung is the editor of Nature China, and he wrote two separate pieces on TCM, one on getting his experience back pain treated and another on TCM's modernization and scientific merits. The two different PMID's are: 22190085 and 22190091 and the names of the articles are "TCM: Made in China" and "Modern TCM: Enter the Clinic", respectively. ] (]) 15:16, 27 June 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sock comments stricken. -- ] (]) 06:14, 30 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
:::::You are not providing verification for the text. I think it should be removed now. ] (]) 15:39, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
<s>I will remove it, but not because it doesn't support the statement made. I do not wish to set the precedent of materials posted which require full text access to verify the claim. ] (]) 16:34, 27 June 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sock comments stricken. -- ] (]) 06:14, 30 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
==Safety and weight== | |||
I've tweaked the wording again re safety in the lede and omitted death from the lede since there are a couple per year worldwide ascording to our sources. Awhile back we reached a consensus that this was too little to mention and undue weight. If editors want to put it back let's figure out a way to make clear what the scale is. Also annotated a review below that found 26 cases (including 14 deaths) of cardiac tamponade: the text neglected to mention that the review was done without language or time limits and thus the sample size is all human-occupied space and time since medical reporting began. We need to be objective; whatever else is going on with acupuncture it's not that dangerous. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 06:33, 26 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:I disagree with your the recent changes. You claim you have consensus for your changes where there is none. What you added to the lede is a problem. For example, "(especially in developed countries) and often are due to malpractice. is low level details again. Not sure if the text is accurate and sourced. The source says there are "'''many''' serious adverse events from developed countries, including Australia, Austria, Canada, Croatia, France, Germany, Holland, Ireland, New Zealand, Spain, Sweden, Switzer-land, the United Kingdom, and the United States." ] (]) 06:47, 26 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::Many yes, but not most -- well, it's closer than I thought, given the developed countries in Asia; I'm removing that part. Now it says "Serious adverse effects are rare and often are due to malpractice." Consensus -- I'm not claiming any present consensus, just saying that there was an earlier time when we decided not to have death in the lede, and it was because the rate is that low: something some of our current editors may not have realized. I know a lot of things cause more than a couple of deaths per year due to people screwing them up and we don't put that in the lede. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 11:53, 26 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::If you don't like the way this article is presented, please do what '''LeadSongDog''' says —] (]) 13:38, 26 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::@Khabbos - Easier way: Edit article, discuss on talk page. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 03:40, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::: I don't understand the objection to "low level details" - the facts in the sources are the only thing we can agree on. At this point I would rather see a flood of raw data (sl. exaggeration) rather than the POV summaries the QG is always cooking up. Its the only way to keep NPOV in alt med subjects.] (]) 15:54, 26 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
The text . "Many are not intrinsic to acupuncture, but caused by malpractice of acupuncturists." does not verify the claim "often". <nowiki><ref name="Adams 2011"/><ref name="Ernst 2011"/><ref>{{cite pmid|24554789}}</ref></nowiki> All these three refs at the end of the sentence do not verify the claim. The part "due to malpractice" does not summarise the body well. ] (]) 06:10, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:I think it does, when you also look at tables 2-4 in Ernst '11 (ref.5). All cases of infection are preventable with CNT, and all cases of pneumothorax and cardiac tamponade are preventable with proper needling. 34 cases of infection, 21 cases of pneumothorax and 2 cases of cardiac tamponade (without comorbid pneumothorax) = 57 cases of 95 reported. Which I think qualifies as "often". Adams (ref.1) says "Many of the serious AEs might have been caused by substandard practice" but I agree that's too weak and am removing it. I don't know why another editor added , the pregnancy review; I'm removing it also pending discussion. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 08:38, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
I revised your most recent edits, and I have to say ''Good work Middle8''! ] (]) 10:27, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::You are drawing your own conclusions when the source does not specifically say it was "often". ] (]) 15:39, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::We're talking about how many SAE's are due to malpractice. Not only is 57 out of 95 "often", it's "more often than not", which is what I'm going to change the text to in a moment. Paraphrasing and using common sense are not only allowed, but encouraged. Remember that one of ] is ], which is basically another way of saying "use common sense". I'm not saying that we need to invoke IAR to justify this edit, because we don't. What I am saying is that this edit is simple common sense, and indeed a very conservative one given IAR. I encourage you to think about IAR and "writing for the enemy" (]) and take them to heart. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 05:51, 28 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::I could not verify the claim "and more often than not are due to malpractice, and therefore preventable with proper training." | |||
::::I think the text is misleading. ] (]) 09:33, 28 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::Explained above and in --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 11:05, 28 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::::You added original research, plain and simple. ] (]) 11:10, 28 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Well, I've explained above why I think it's a reasonable translation (57 out of 95). Again, I think your insistence on the article using the precise and literal wording of the source is rigid and goes against common sense. | |||
:::::::I've explained my reasoning above, and all you've said is "I could not verify the claim" and "you added OR", which is simply a repetition of your earlier comment "you are drawing your own conclusions". You're not addressing my arguments, but just repeating your position. This is textbook IDHT, not at all helpful in ]. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 11:30, 28 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
@ {{U|Jmh649}}/Doc James - Re your of a couple of edits -- I'll briefly explain them both and then let you reply. '''''' I explained , referring to the tables in . He says "many" AE's are due to malpractice, and that works out to be at least 57 of the 95 total that he found, (searching internationally) from 2000-2009, which sounds like "more often than not" to me. .... And then '''''' I explained in the ES itself; it obviously follows from the definition of malpractice, and the source specifically makes this connection too (cf. quote in ES). Thanks! Have a great weekend. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 12:11, 28 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::So which text from the paper supports this? ] (] · ] · ]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 12:17, 28 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::(1) "Many are not intrinsic to acupuncture, but caused by malpractice of acupuncturists" and (2) tables 2-4, from which we learn further that at least 57 of the 95 SAE's were due to malpractice (infection or pneumothorax or cardiac tamponade). Or does WP's dictum "use common sense" preclude doing arithmetic when summarizing sources? :-) --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 05:09, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::The source does ''not'' specifically say it was "often" or say "more often than not". The source says: "Many are not intrinsic to acupuncture, but caused by malpractice of acupuncturists. I changed it from "often" to "many" according to ] policy. | |||
:::The source does ''not'' specifically say "and therefore preventable with proper training." The source says: "In order to minimize the risk, all acupuncturists should be trained adequately." I added only sourced text to the lede rather than original research. ] (]) 03:33, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::5 deaths in 10 years is undue weight in the lede; see my comment above (). Additionally, Ernst '11 doesn't say "deaths continue to be reported". --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 05:20, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::"Serious adverse events, including deaths, continue to be reported." The text is sourced and is a summary of the body. ] (]) 05:24, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I checked and it doesn't say this anywhere in the paper. It is in the abstract online, but not the abstract as displayed in the paper. Anyway, we're failing WEIGHT if we don't make clear how frequent (or infrequent) such deaths are. 5 in 10 years. What a POV push. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 06:36, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::::Great, since you like to stick close to the source, let's do it,. ES was truncated, should say "if we're going to insist on scary TEH DEATHS in the lede, then let's be clear about scale". Having it in the lede at all is undue weight; we'd never do this in another medical article (or any other article) with that rate of deaths. Excellent example of POV-pushing from the anti-CAM side. Plenty to criticize in acu, but it's pretty safe. Too much attention is given to scary death in both body and lede; another e.g. is 2nd para of ], which goes into all that detail for a total of 17 deaths found worldwide EVER. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 05:35, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
. ] (]) 05:32, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:Explained right above. What WP policy says we have to use exact wording from source? None at all. Quite the contrary; we're supposed to use common sense and write for an encylopedia, not a link farm. You're not following ]. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 05:38, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::Then again, you also once said that rendering "0.05 in 10,000" as "5 in one million" was "too confusing". That was... remarkable. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 09:55, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::Bit more on ref "Ernst 2011" (I have the full paper): For 2000-2009, searching multiple databases internationally and without language restrictions, they found "Ninety-five cases of severe adverse effects including 5 fatalities". So 5 fatalities over 10 years, which I rendered as "an average of one death every two years was reported internationally." --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 09:55, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::: The source cited actually says that serious adverse effects, including deaths, continue to be reported. You removed that text and substituted your own analysis of the review. Just because the time scale for a review covers a period of 10 years, it doesn't mean that every report within that period was included. In fact we know from the abstract that inclusion criteria were employed to filter the sources considered. Within that selected group there were 5 reported fatalities, but we have no way of knowing what time period the selected group covered. In short, you're making the assumption that the fatalities considered by Ernst were the only ones reported; that those 5 were spread over a time period that you're assuming was ten years (by guessing the end date for the selection criteria); and then you've applied an average using an uncertain numerator over an uncertain denominator. Of course, it suits your POV to say "one death every two years internationally" than "deaths continue to be reported" (which is what the source says), but using unjustifiable assumptions to attempt to whitewash the broad conclusions of the source isn't how we should be dealing with topics on an encyclopedia. --] (]) 13:11, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::@ {{U|RexxS}}, I'm not sure you've read the review itself, because you're quoting a passage that's in the PubMed abstract only and not in the paper. (The version of the abstract in the PDF doesn't have the same wording as in PubMed.) Am I wrong? If we're editing at this granular level I'd expect editors to have the full source at hand. | |||
::::I meant "reported" as in "reported by the review that did the search". Just saying "continue to be reported" without a number imparts little information (we're not obliged to include every statement from a source). I understand what you're saying, but I don't think the results in the review are very far off what was reported globally in the literature, because the goal was to find all reported deaths, and Ernst's selection criteria were ''as inclusive'' as possible. There wasn't any "filtering out" going on. (Injecting drugs into acupoints is not acupuncture.) | |||
{{cot|title=Ernst's selection criteria for lit search of adverse events incl. deaths}} | |||
{{Cquote|Embase, Medline, CINAHL, AMED, and the Cochrane Library were searched (October 2009) without language restrictions. Departmental files and bibliographies were hand searched. We included all case reports and case series relating to serious adverse effects, that is, an unwanted clinical outcome that needed medical/surgical attention or led to death. Reports of adverse effects due to injecting drugs into acupuncture points were excluded.}} | |||
{{cob}} | {{cob}} | ||
::::Just saying "deaths happen" without giving ''some'' idea of what we know about the scale is absurd. It certainly fits the POV of acu-critics. You assume I'm an acu-proponent, but that's not really compatible with sticking malpractice into the lede, is it, or add Cochrane reviews, or pruning inappropriate claims? I'm about as critical an acu'ist as you'll find, and expect you and other editors to follow NPA and comment on content, not the contributor, unless there's a good reason to call out an apparent POV-push. Trying to depict scale of reported deaths isn't a POV-push; just saying "death" in the lede, when the known rate is so low, is. How would you depict the rate, or would you even try? I'm going to make an edit using the exact wording from the review. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 13:55, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::::@{{U|RexxS}} P.S. - OK, no need to answer; I realize you didn't read it based on your comment that I assumed what the time span was. It's not in the abstract but is in the paper (which I previously mentioned I had a copy of). If all you have is the abstract, it's a good idea to note this in talk page discussions, so that others know what information you're working with. (Especially if you're going to criticize another editor for supposedly misreading a source) :-) --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 15:56, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::The specific details are in the body and the lede explains "Serious adverse effects are rare...." So the reader knowns as for serious adverse effects it is indeed rare. The lede should be a summary without going into excessive details. See "Between 2000 and 2009, a total of 95 serious adverse events, including 5 deaths, were reported." The context and a more detailed explanation is the body. ] (]) 14:22, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::::"How rare?" is a valid question given how rare it really is, and I repeat that with such a low number it's misleading to mention it without a qualifier, and it ideally shouldn't be there at all for WEIGHT reasons. (Because we don't mention it at all in other articles where there are more deaths.) We could go to RSN or some sort of NPOV-related noticeboard I guess. In the meantime, please consider using the wording after your first edit (partly removing the detail but leaving the number) as a compromise. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 15:04, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::: | |||
:::In my opinion, five death cases is far too marginal to be included in the article. I agree with RexxS however, that we cannot make our own analysis about the average annual death rate. But in the light of the source, we know that 5 deaths have been reported, and that's something I wouldn't give too much weight. In my opinion, it's too minor to be included in the article. ] (]) 14:48, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::"Deaths continue to be reported", and what's the information value of this? I think it's way too general and should be removed. ] (]) 15:11, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::: {{reply to | Middle 8}} The source that is cited in the article supporting its content is https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21440191 - the abstract available at PMID: 21440191. If you want to claim that a different source contradicts it, then it's normally polite to give a clear quote for material that's not freely available. I don't usually go to the trouble of getting full text versions when the abstract is so clear, but I can if it's essential. In this case, everyone can see in the cited source where it says "Serious adverse events, including deaths, continue to be reported." What's the quote that's supporting "5 in a 10-year period"? For what it's worth, as the full text contains more detail than the summary, there's obviously going to be a case for reporting that detail in the article; but when the ''source's'' summary fails to mention a particular detail, isn't that a clear pointer against putting it into ''our'' summary? | |||
:::: {{reply to | Jayaguru-Shishya}} I disagree that fatalities resulting from treatment are "far too marginal to be included in the article". The average reader would not anticipate that acupuncture could kill people, so noting that it can happen is certainly a key point. If you can't see the information value of reporting that deaths continue from what many would expect to be a relatively harmless treatment, then I doubt that you ought to be editing in this area. Isn't it the simple truth that you're trying your hardest to whitewash acupuncture and are working to remove anything critical? --] (]) 19:24, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::Hi RexxS. No, I am not trying to whitewash acupuncture. I neither find it really nice that you are saying such as the very first thing after I told my opinion. Anyway, I was thinking that five reported death cases are not significant enough to be mentioned; we are still in the very marginal here. ] (]) 19:59, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::: RexxS I don't think that omitting something important from the source because it is not included in the summary makes sense. It is important to include the number of deaths so the reader has a sense of scale. It would even be helpful to note death rates of other minor surgical procedures for comparison. In any case, I prefer we include the stats because numbers are less likely to advance a POV.] (]) 20:09, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::::: Jayaguru-Shishya, just how many people have to die from a treatment before you think it is significant? I'm not interested in playing games with you. I look at your contributions and I have to say it does nothing to change my assessment of the nature of your edits on this article. Your most recent edits to this article include stunts like rewriting the source {{xt|acupuncture may be useful as an adjunct treatment or an acceptable alternative '''or be included in''' a comprehensive management program}} as {{!xt|suggesting acupuncture as both a useful adjunct or '''alternative to''' a comprehensive management program}}. How can you seriously tell me that isn't a serious misrepresentation whose only purpose is to cast acupuncture in a more positive light than the source provided? --] (]) 22:58, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::{{reply to | RexxS}} Just to clarify, the citation is indeed for the full paper. For some reason it's paywalled when you click through via the PubMed abstract, but -- as I just discovered -- you can access the whole thing via the doi. Anyway, I guess you missed it, but I did paste in a quote from the full paper above when I thought it was unaccessible. To answer your question, no, there is no good reason to assume that if a detail is omitted in an abstract, it's unlikely to be encyclopedic. If that were true then Wikipedians wouldn't care about free access journals, right? Doesn't make much sense at all, and I don't think it was a good reason for your reverting ; and if we're to have it in the lede, then doing it the way jps just did is reasonable. | |||
:::::But getting back to the bigger picture and your (unduly rude) reply to Jayaguru-Shishya, it doesn't make sense to put it in the lede when it's so rare, and not intrinsic to acupuncture. All five deaths in that paper are due to some acupuncturist, somewhere, being an idiot and either using a dirty needle or sticking it in a grossly inappropriate place, like the lung. People die all the time from unsterile needles, but we don't talk about such deaths in the lede sections of (e.g.) articles on IV antibiotics. The reason for that is that such deaths aren't intrinsic to the treatment. Same logic should apply here. And the language needs tightening.... Actually, is mostly a big improvement, except for the undue weight that comes with mentioning death in the lede. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 21:22, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::: Middle 8, I didn't miss your quote and the quote doesn't say that "there were 5 deaths internationally over 10 years" - the fragment you quoted said simply "Ninety-five cases of severe adverse effects including 5 fatalities". I can only assume you didn't understand the point I was making that not all reports were guaranteed to be included in the review and we don't know how the five fatalities were distributed, so creating an average may well be misleading. It would be safe to conclude that there were at least 5 fatalities in a period of at most 10 years, but that's not particularly helpful to the reader. | |||
:::::: Next, don't put words into my mouth. The mistake here is your assertion that I was asking whether a detail is ''encyclopedic''. You need to understand that a detail may be worthy of inclusion in a Misplaced Pages article but not be of sufficient weight to be included in its summary (the lead). The figures that you have been battling to have in the lead may well be worthy of examination in the section on safety, but when the original authors in their summary merely tell us how many "cases of severe adverse effects including ... fatalities" were ''included in the review'', then how can we justify extrapolating that to an average or a mortality rate "internationally" when we don't know how many events were ''not included in the review'', or the actual time period they cover? | |||
:::::: As for the comparison with dirty IV needles, if people have died as a result of such malpractice, and a good quality source surveyed the literature and drawn a conclusion, I'd have no problem in reporting that conclusion in the relevant article. My only concern is that we accurately summarise what the best sources say, and not make assumptions like "All five deaths in that paper are due to some acupuncturist, somewhere, being an idiot and either using a dirty needle or sticking it in a grossly inappropriate place." The fact is neither of us know how the fatalities came about and the moment we substitute our own analysis - no matter how likely - we ] and distort what the sources say. --] (]) 22:58, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Hi RexxS, the cause of death of the five subjects is in the paper. See my comment below to Kww. More later... (I sense the heat is a little high here so let's take it down a bit OK?) --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 10:18, 1 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::::: Yes, I can see that four of the five deaths were ''diagnosed'' as pneumothorax, the other is presumably the Chang report which diagnosed "aorta-duodenal fistula, shock". It's worth remembering that cause of death is not the same as diagnosis. I still don't see how you managed to relate deaths to dirty or unsterile needles - we should be trying hard to stick to what the sources say, not what our own opinions or experiences suggest. Anyway, my point remains: none of us would expect a patient receiving treatment (of any sort) for shoulder stiffness or lower back pain to die as a direct result of the treatment. Yes, it's incredibly rare in acupuncture, but it's such a serious outcome from treating such a minor ailment that it is definitely noteworthy. Does that explain my concerns any better? --] (]) 13:54, 1 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::::::: Hi RexxS, thanks, I get what you're saying re: death being an unexpected and serious outcome. I agree with this; the only issue is that of proportion, relative to other topics, and how we handle those on WP. Kww said it well below. Almost ''anything'' can kill at some point just due to human fallibility and the sheer probability that goes with having 6 billion people around. Aspirin kills hundreds of people per year in the US alone; undoubtedly, many of these come from misuse, which is also true of acupuncture and much else that unexpectedly causes death. IOW: one has every right NOT to expect death from generally-seen-as-benign things if one and/or one's practitioner is reasonably careful. In the US at least, acu'ists are trained to use clean needles, not to needle deeply or at all in certain areas, and so on. | |||
::::::::: Of much greater interest than raw totals is death ''rate''. Back of the envelope (not a proposed edit; just for perspective): For acu, SAE's may be on the order of one in 200,000 treatments (per Adams, citing White), and if 5% of those are fatal (our Ernst review), then we have one in four million, ballpark. Some perspective: "A one-in-a-million chance of death can also be thought of as the consequences of a form of (imaginary) Russian roulette in which 20 coins are thrown in the air: if they all come down heads, then the subject is executed (the chance of this happening is 1 in 220, which is roughly equal to one in a million)." Also see: . See what I mean about undue weight to death in the lede? | |||
::::::::: About dirty needles: what meant to say above is that "most SAE's, including fatal ones, as in this review" are either due to dirty needles OR poor needle placement. It was the latter that that caused the 4 pneumothorax deaths and maybe the other one. (Virtually all pneumothorax from acu is preventable... just don't needle deeply... take my word for now; can source later. This is a big part of training in safety.) As for infections, most aren't fatal, but Hep C eventually could be. BTW, in the review, pneumothorax (etc.) is meant as the diagnosis ''of the adverse event'' (fatal or not); see "causality" for whether they're sure it was due to acu. | |||
::::::::: Anyway, I'm sure we can work out some compromise, and as is often the case in contentious CAM areas, it may help to get fresh eyes at (e.g.) a noticeboard. Opinions tend to get pretty entrenched among active editors in CAM areas. I think it would really help to get the article to a certain point (maybe not that far off?), and then bring in editors who specialize in helping move articles to GA status; they'll also be good judges of stuff like how to weight safety. | |||
::::::::: Sorry so long. But I think we got off to a bad start, so maybe more is better for the moment, in terms of understanding each other. (I cannot believe I just spent an hour googling and replying here... easy to get drawn in... it's fun, but I can't spend any more than 30-60 minutes per day, max, on WP.) regards, ] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 13:38, 2 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::: I'm not sure, but I think from what you say above, that you now agree that the issue of fatalities is noteworthy enough to be mentioned (albeit briefly) in the lead? | |||
:::::::::: The problem that I see with the back of the envelope is that you can make the mistake of dividing 200K apples by 0.05 pears and getting 4 million. Let me explain: Ernst searched the literature for reviews of acupuncture being used to treat pain. Although that's probably the commonest application of acupuncture, it's not the sole one. Ask yourself "Were there SAEs following acupuncture not included in Ernst's review of reviews?" The wrong answers are: (1) "Yes" (2) "No". The right answer is "We don't know". Similarly, ask "Were there any fatalities amongst the half dozen reports that gave no information on outcome?" The same right/wrong answers apply. In addition Ernst makes the point that "Fifty-seven systematic reviews met our inclusions criteria ... They focused on a wide range of pain syndromes ... and most were published within the last 2 years". Even though most reports were clustered in a two-year period, the deaths occurred in 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, and 2009. Small numbers create unintuitive distributions and averages are poor indicators in those cases (check the Poisson distribution). Now, we ''can'' estimate the death rate from fuzzy figures, but it's what we call a "swag" (scientific wild-arsed guess), but I wouldn't care to assign any confidence in such an estimate. That's why I don't feel confident saying much more that "deaths have been reported" - and qualifying by describing it as "rare", rather than trying to ascribe actual figures where we really don't have the precision. | |||
:::::::::: Having taught statistics for 20-odd years, half a lifetime ago, I do have some idea of odds. For example, the chance of winning the UK National Lottery is about 1 in 14 million (<sup>49</sup>C<sub>6</sub>), yet most weeks somebody wins. For the person who wins, it's pretty significant - and without that, nobody would buy a lottery ticket. What I'm saying is that even rare events can be noteworthy when their consequences are huge, doubly so when they are unexpected. | |||
:::::::::: I don't think you're reading the causality column correctly. Take a look at the penultimate paragraph of the review and you'll see that "certain/probable/etc." implies the confidence in whether the SAE was the cause of the ''diagnosis''. We don't have "cause of outcome" because diagnosis =/= outcome. For example in the Karst report the diagnosis was "Injury of arteria brachialis, ischemia of hand" - which was "certain" to have been caused by the acupuncture; the outcome was "Amputation below the elbow" which I contend was ''not'' caused by acupuncture (unless they used a really, really big needle). Bottom line: we end up guessing at cause of death. Hope that gives you some more perspective on what I've been concerned about. --] (]) 20:25, 2 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::: Hi RexxS; I'll address your points in the order that you raised them. | |||
:::::::::::# I agree that unexpected and rare events with huge consequences are important, but don't agree that deaths from acu are frequent enough to warrant mention in the lede. All kinds of unusual accidents happen to people and we don't mention these in every pertinent article's lede section. Again, we're talking five ''known'' deaths in a decade from acu -- and not only from treatment for pain, cf. #2. | |||
:::::::::::# It sounds like you believe the review was limited to SAE's due to pain; if so, that's incorrect. Only the search on efficacy was limited to pain. (See column "reason for acu".) The goal was to summarize reports of SAE's for 2000-2009. (Of course they may have overlooked some reports, and some SAE's go unreported, but those caveats are true in any such review.) I think the summarizes the source adequately, other than the undue weight to death in the lede. So my back-of-the-envelope wasn't apples-to-pears, but setting that aside: whatever the rate is, we know that -- unlike with the lottery -- we ''don't'' hear about people dying every week from acu. | |||
:::::::::::# Re cause of death (or other adverse outcome): If acu is certain to have caused the SAE and the outcome was death, the death is ascribed to acu. (So acu was the "proximate cause" of amputation, in the example you mention.) A false positive for causality would mean one less SAE ascribed to acu. But I don't understand why you raise this issue. | |||
::::::::::: Sounds like we agree to disagree about whether it's a WP:UNDUE problem to mention death in the lede, specifically "five known deaths in a decade according to a comprehensive search of the international literature", which is how the source should be summarized in the article body. Anything else? Seems like we're close to moving on. regards, ] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 07:13, 3 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::RexxS, I'm glad to find out that there are some others who also understand statistics. In scientific studies, however, we never try to make findings about the whole population. There is always some criteria for selection of data, and we base our findings on that data in use. How well the included data represents the whole population, that's another issue. Especially in systematic reviews, the publication bias may be a problem, but there is whole different set of methods to study that one. In experimental trials, the small sample size might be problematic. Anyway, when we are referring to Ernst, we are just to report the findings he made on the basis of his own study; not to speculate how well it represents the whole population. | |||
:::::::::::Where I agree with RexxS however, is that we certainly should not calculate any "death rates" of our own. | |||
:::::::::::Where I agree with Middle8, is that five deaths are far too mariginal to be reported. ] (]) 13:35, 3 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::: I've looked again at the "Reason for acupuncture" column in the SAE tables (2, 3, 4) and you're right: the search for SAEs wasn't confined to just treatment for pain. That gives me more confidence in the figure of 5 deaths, although it doesn't remove the uncertainty from those cases where the outcome was unknown. I think I'd relent on my objection to the "(5 deaths reported in 10 years)" wording. I agree that the {{oldid2|615313825|current version}} summarises the review adequately, but re-iterate my contention that the fact that deaths occurred from what most people would expect to be a benign procedure is of sufficient interest to be included in our summary, particularly when the authors chose to feature it in their summary. We may have to agree to disagree on that. | |||
:::::::::::: Cause of death is always a difficult topic to adequately summarise in our articles. I'll give you a clear example: my wife was diagnosed with bowel cancer and underwent treatment for two years; she eventually died from pneumonia. That was the cause of death, yet I know there was a story that lay behind that that couldn't be easily summarised on a certificate. I could speculate that at least one of the deaths reported in Ernst's review might be due to a botched attempt at resuscitation possibly following a spontaneous pneumothorax - acupuncture not then being the cause, proximate or distal. That would indeed mean less than 5 deaths actually caused by acupuncture in the period. The point I'm making remains: presenting 5 fatal outcomes reported as "5 deaths caused by acupuncture" involves an assumption on our part that may not necessarily be warranted by the source. That why I prefer to refer to a "small number" or a "rare event" when summarising, rather than giving a figure that carries an unsupportable precision in its implications. Hope that helps. --] (]) 15:58, 3 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::{{replyto|RexxS}} That's a terrible thing that happened to you and your wife, and I don't know how long ago it was (the impact does change with time but never leaves), but you have my sincerest sympathies. Re the principle for which you mentioned that as an example (causality), I agree with your logic; I'd just like to ''somehow'' convey an idea of scale, within an order of magnitude or two, at least (can't really go down so it'd just be plus :-) ). More on this below. On including it at all, although I do agree with your logic that unexpected = important, but as with anything else, probability matters, and again I just don't think we're reaching significance (especially with respect to other things that probably happen more often but don't either, like horrible but very surgical accidents. (Any doctors in the house to comment on this? {{ping|Jmh649}}/Doc James?) With respect to consensus: Myself, Kww, Herbxue and Jayaguru-Shishya have supported disclusion in the lede, and you, QuackGuru and I would guess JPS have disagreed, and I don't know about the rest. This may be worth an RfC/A. In the meantime specifying the number a la "(5 deaths reported in 10 years)" sounds like a good compromise position, to which the current text is close. But how to do this and take into account your point about causality -- which turns out to be well-founded, as the source doesn't use such language! In the abstract just says cases of SAE's were "found", and in the body talks about complications "after acupuncture". Ah! So we could say, e.g.: "A review found ninety-five cases of serious adverse events after acupuncture (including five deaths) between 2000 and 2009". That's highly faithful to the source, and superior to what we have now, which deviates in more than one respect. You may want to make a mildly bold edit; I will refrain. Over to you -- this is helpful. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 09:52, 5 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
It frightens me, but I think I tend towards the pro-acupuncture camp on this one. There's a death rate associated with nearly any procedure. Remember the famous case a few months ago where the little girl wound up brain dead after apnea surgery? Would that make it legitimate to put '''''may cause death''''' in an article about sleep apnea surgery? Probably not. To mention this here would require that the source had demonstrated that the death rate for the procedure was abnormal compared to the death rate for minor medical procedures.—](]) 20:16, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:Yep... most of the serious adverse events in that review were due to malpractice (e.g. infection due to dirty needles, organ puncture due to needling too deeply near the heart and lungs), including all five of said deaths -- well, 4 for sure (]); I'm not sure about aorto-duodenal fistula, which may have been acceptable needling meets a rare anatomical anomaly. Still, most SAE's and nearly all (if not all) deaths are not instrinsic to acupuncture, but rather to people's tendency to be idiots, as Dr. House would put it. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 22:18, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:Heh, I don't know about "pro-acupuncture camps", but just make sure you won't include me in one of those ;) ] (]) 20:25, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
=== Good reorg of lede... === | |||
Nice edit from jps. Far better prose: it badly needed tightening; there were too many instances of using the near-exact wording of multiple sources (a problem severely afflicting much of the article). And even though the lede is now 5 para's, that's fine; 4 is not a rigid limit. We need more of this approach. My only significant objection is death (famous last words eh?). See Kww just above and my reply . --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 22:02, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
See ]: "The appropriate length of the lead section depends on the total ]. As a general guideline—but not absolute rule—the lead should usually be no longer than four paragraphs." The lede should be . I don't see a reason for 5 paragraphs. ] (]) 23:07, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:The reason is better prose: each para has its own topic; gluing them together is awkward. I've seen articles that worked well with six or more short paragraphs in the lede. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 23:42, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
I hope nobody minds my turning the definition list into a sub-heading, but it is a help for accessibility and the section needed a break anyway. The rewrite of the lead is an improvement in my humble opinion. Although I would prefer fewer paragraphs to comply with the Misplaced Pages "house style", in this case it is arguable that paragraphs covering introduction, effectiveness, safety, mechanism, and history makes a coherent framework for the lead. It's worth it if we can get a consensus for that structure. | |||
I ought to make two minor criticisms: | |||
# The effectiveness paragraph is too big, because it goes into too much detail. For example, the issue of variable and inconsistent evidence is worth stating, but not examining in the lead - the section on ''Effectiveness'' is where I'd expect to see the comment about publication bias. Perhaps we can look at that paragraph in the future to see if we can pare it down a little. | |||
# There is a sentence in the safety paragraph that concludes {{!xt|... there is a low risk of adverse effects which are fairly minor.}} Now, in UK-English that is grammatically correct but means "the minor adverse effects are the ones which have a low risk" (i.e. it's a ). In US-English, the construction is deprecated because "that" is strongly preferred to "which" in defining relative clauses. In either form of English, a non-defining relative clause should be separated by a comma (and I suspect that is what was intended here). I'd suggest something like {{xt|... there is a low incidence of adverse effects, most of which are minor.}} might summarise the text less ambiguously. | |||
Neither of those is a serious problem, but perhaps worth consideration. --] (]) 00:49, 30 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:Belatedly, these are both good points IMO. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 07:33, 5 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
==="Continue to be reported"=== | |||
Can someone explain why "serious adverse events continue to be reported" is useful at all? It's from a 2009 review that we already cite (both in the body and the lede) for the "95 SAE's including 5 deaths" statistic (found in a lit search covering 2000-2009). What additional information does it provide? (Yes, the source uses that wording, but it's tautological, and editors have discretion to choose what to include, cf. ].) Hence this edit of mine (later reverted): | |||
*, ES: tighten lede wording --- "continue to be reported" (per '09 source) is redundant & self-evident, given that the VERY SAME source says "Between 2000 and 2009, 95 instances were reported". I trust this makes sense logically & grammatically... | |||
BTW, we can do without this, which obviously refers to the ES above and is an example of ]: | |||
* , ES: Safety: move wikilink up (be careful of an editor who may put in his edit summary something like "tighten redundant lede wording" or something like "redundant and self-apparent wording in lede". | |||
* (edit) and then same ES again, as a null edit here on talk? Why? | |||
Content disputes should be ] (this is obvious, but they still had to write it down in WP:DR). "Be careful of an editor..." is, in the context of a content dispute, an inappropriate comment on the contributor. This isn't a battleground. QG, if you have a concern, just discuss it here on talk, please. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 08:34, 2 July 2014 (UTC) <small>edited 13:43, 2 July 2014 (UTC)</small> | |||
: The reason why "serious adverse events continue to be reported" is useful in the Misplaced Pages sense is that it's a prominent conclusion of a high-quality source - by prominent in this case, I mean that the author/editor chose to include the phrase (twice!) in the summary of the review. The fact that X SAEs occurred in a recent time frame does not automatically imply that such SAEs continue to occur, so it is not true that "SAE's occurred ..." and "SAEs continue to occur ..." make up a tautology. | |||
: Could I also please remind you that the purpose of this talk page is to improve the article. Complaints solely concerned with other editors' behaviour rarely meet that objective and are best taken up on the other editor's talk page or pursued through ]. --] (]) 19:34, 2 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
::Sure it's prominent, it just doesn't add any information. The review covers 2000-2009, and it tells us that SAE's continued to be reported through 2009. (And it's very likely that they continue to be, but since we're being so highly specific about citations, I'll note that the source doesn't claim to predict the future). So? We already quantify the source's findings, so better to "omit needless words". (BTW I'm familiar with ] and so forth.) --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 07:39, 3 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
::: Surely it adds the information that SAEs were still being reported and had not ceased? If that was so mind-bogglingly obvious, then why would the authors of the review make a point of mentioning it twice in the paper and twice in the abstract? --] (]) 15:58, 3 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
{{od}} | |||
{{replyto|RexxS}} - Look, I'm not going to fight consensus on this if it's different from my view, but since you ask again, I repeat, I don't agree for several reasons. I think it's biased and POINT-y on the part of the authors -- verifiability doesn't guarantee inclusion, so it's not unreasonable to question -- and as scientific writing adds virtually nothing to the statement that "N # of SAE's were reported over a 10-year period". If those reports had significantly increased or decreased, we'd expect him to say so, but otherwise, it's just taken as a given that the results were distributed more or less randomly over the decade. The statement is information-poor and reads more like a press release than a useful conclusion. | |||
Apropos of the press-release comparison, there's also evidence of bias in the source. more... | |||
{{cot}} | |||
It suggests bias to in effect give equal weight to (a) meta-analyses covering hundreds of patients and (b) single case reports of SAE's, given the very very low # of SAE's for acupuncture relative to most other treatments. I'd be surprised to see at such an approach to data in other fields. It suggest bias to not even attempt to guess at a denominator, or at least note other attempts to do so, and come up with some guess at a rate, even if it's a very rough guess. | |||
Now, I understand where Ernst is going with the comparison: that maybe acu has zero specific effects, so there's no justification for using it as long as the rate of SAE's is nonzero. (I'm not going to be disingenuous and fail to address the best arguments that I see on either side of a debate.) But there are counterarguments. First, he gives short shrift to the positive evidence for efficacy that exists, assuming that inconsistency among reviews' conclusions implies likeliness of the null result, when that's not necessarily so; heterogeneity of study designs could account for a mix of Type 1 and Type 2 errors, each of which some reviews take into account more than others. Second, his argument that it makes no sense that acu would treat some but not all kinds of pain is silly on its face (different mechanisms for different kinds of pain, no?). Third, what Ernst and many acu-critics are neglecting is that even ''if'' acu is mostly non-specific, it's highly likely that it has local effects for the same reasons massage does (such as trigger point release). Fourth -- and I know this view is controversial, but it's essentially what e.g. Vickers and the German body that acted upon GERAC said -- as long as there's no common way ''in practice'' to leverage non-specific effects (strong placebo effects that result from the ritual of acu treatment and noxious stimulation), the marginal difference between acu's placebo effects and the next best safe thing counts for something in terms of reducing suffering. That last argument is particularly valid to the degree that acu has specific (even if local) effects, but if it's all a nonspecific dance, it gets dicey. | |||
{{cob}} We have discretion as editors and are not bound to include material that's flawed. I'd be surprised if enough editors join me on this to make a consensus, and some won't read it. But those are my specific reasons for objecting to this wording, fwiw. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 07:12, 5 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
== Duplication == | |||
A 2012 meta-analysis conducted by the Acupuncture Trialists' Collaboration found "relatively modest" efficiency of acupuncture (in comparison to sham) for the treatment of four different types of chronic pain, and on that basis concluded it "is more than a placebo" and a reasonable referral option. | |||
A 2012 meta-analysis for chronic pain stated that significant differences exist between true and sham acupuncture, indicating that acupuncture is "more than a placebo." | |||
We should not repeat the , especially when it is disputed. See: "Commenting on this meta-analysis, both Edzard Ernst and David Colquhoun said the results were of negligible clinical significance." ] (]) 17:08, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:<s>They are in two different sections, with different emphases. Are you saying that the article shouldn't have duplicate citations anywhere, because I see dozens we could trim if that's the case. ] (]) 17:52, 27 June 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sock comments stricken. -- ] (]) 06:14, 30 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
::A compromise was reached with the wording. IMO the disputed text should not be added to different sections. You did not include: "Both Edzard Ernst and David Colquhoun said the results were of negligible clinical significance." ] (]) 18:00, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
Maybe I'm not just following here, but where is the duplication? ] (]) 20:58, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:The same source is being used twice in different sections for very similar statements. ] (]) 21:01, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::So...? Can you please present it now here? Just point out which sections and what parts, it'd be enough thanks. ] (]) 21:11, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::I already did show what was the in this thread. The text is already in the ] section but now very similar text was added to . ] (]) 21:17, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::Seems reasonable. I same thing is dealt with in more depth at ]. I removed the duplicated part from the article. ] (]) 19:26, 28 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
== No consensus for disputed source == | |||
that was by ] and others. It was not a German review. It was a review by a Chinese source and the text is not neutrally written. I recommend we go back before the disputed text and original research was added to the article. ] (]) 17:08, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:I have to say I agree with '''QuackGuru''' here; I'm seeing misleading wording inserted, original research, and poor sourcing. We should return to the version from a few days ago, as suggested. ] (]) 17:44, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::I checked the edit history again. The only clean version I could find is . ] (]) 17:50, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::: No, don't undo the work of several editors on multiple parts of the article just to undo a couple edits you find questionable. Do them one by one. You are doing this because several of us have disagreed with your recent work and you want to sneak around us by undoing everything that has been done. That's edit warring. I have no reason to believe you are doing this in good faith. Undo one questionable edit at a time like everyone else does. ] (]) 17:52, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::There has been numerous questionable edits. Continuing to replace sourced text with OR is a problem. I'm not making the controversial edits or adding to the . On the contrary, you continuing to . You are not helping to fix the problems. See ]. You are and you were the problems. ] (]) 18:17, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
Your diffs don't really make your point (I'm not really sure what your point is). My point is there has been much work done to the article beyond the addition of sources you are complaining about. Going back to an earlier version is destructive and unnecessary. Just challenge the problematic sources one by one.] (]) 18:56, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:You think duplication is ? ] (]) 19:04, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::What does that diff (about POV tags) have to do with duplicating citations? Are you just randomly linking to make it look like you are making cogent points?] (]) 19:10, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::You without removing the . Part of the problem is that you don't see there is any problem with the current version even after diffs was provided. ] (]) 19:41, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:QuackGuru, what is your point? I am sorry but I can't find any. Please do have the respect for other editors to explain what you are trying to say with those innumerable diffs you give. | |||
:So far, I found no problem with the edits, and I think good job has been made. The article has improved again a bit. ] (]) 19:53, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::But I have with the recent edits. The , , and should be removed. ] (]) 20:18, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::Without fixing the problems the . I did explain about the . The two sources were not MEDRS complaint. ] (]) 20:41, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::Thanks for your reply QuackGuru. So far, OR, MEDRS and duplication have been mentioned. Now, can you please explain us why do you think a specific edit is OR/MEDRS/duplication in your opinion? Please include the specific edit and your opinion why it falls under one of those categories. Thanks. ] (]) 20:46, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::The edit summary claims "". But I am . ] (]) 20:51, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
== Questioning of Sources == | |||
<s>On the page, many sources to edits I made have been questioned. Yet these edits are cited by pubmed indexed, peer-reviewed publications, such as Medical Acupuncture. I have counted the number of times an Edzard Ernst review has been cited, which is 28 times individually with many duplications in the article. Is this a problem of weight? Ernst has many reviews on the CAM field, and not once has he had positive findings. Ernst has been criticized many times and published commentaries on his work have have listed many problems, including selection bias, negligence, inconsistencies and inclusion of unverified data. Has the time come to tag everything Ernst claims as well? ] (]) 18:10, 27 June 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sock comments stricken. -- ] (]) 06:14, 30 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
:For controversial or strong claims the consensus was to be leave out . See comment on 19:36, 10 May 2014: "Does Med. Acupunct. have legit peer-review? AIM, it turns out, doesn't, disappointingly: see ]. We have to use good journals, no question." ] (]) 18:29, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::OR, FV, MEDRS... a lot of tags have been inserted again over the article. I'd suggest that QuackGuru provides each specific edit, one by one, and tells what he thinks is wrong in there. Mere statements like "FV" doesn't give us any further understanding. Please communicate, explain. ] (]) 19:57, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::We can start . I . "FV" stands for failed verification. I did explain the problems with the . ] (]) 20:33, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::Thanks for your answer. Now, can you please explain that why do you find that certain edit as FV? E.g. "In my opinion, it fails verification because..." ] (]) 20:48, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::It did explain this before. It was not a and the source was disputed. was by ] and others. ] (]) 20:55, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::::Instead of giving those diffs (I don't really get your point), could you just please explain? Please try to paraphrase your main points what you are trying to say. I see a lot of diffs you are giving, but I don't really know what you are trying to tell with those. Thanks. ] (]) 21:08, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::::The diffs show there was no consensus to use the Chinese source on Misplaced Pages. There was a long discussion about this at GERAC. The result was no consensus. ] (]) 21:13, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Thanks, answered my question finally. I won't say yes or no to your earlier discussion at GERAP at this point though. ] (]) 21:35, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::I even tried to add the source to the GERAC page but I was reverted. ] (]) 21:37, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
<s>QuackGuru, I find it rather interesting you chose to disagree with , opposed to . If you have a problem with what you tagged, you can do me and everyone else the courtesy of explaining each need for a tag. You tagged each source, you should be able to explain each need for a tag. A broad generalization doesn't work when each source is unique. Nor does cherry picking one source to criticize doesn't work when you tagged many sources.] (]) 21:02, 27 June 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sock comments stricken. -- ] (]) 06:14, 30 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
:I already explained about the . See ]. And I already explained about the which is not a review. ] (]) 21:13, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::<s> is a secondary, opposed to the typical systematic review. It is not a primary source, and therefore is allowed. Some other editors might feel that Medical Acupuncture isn't peer reviewed, and they are entitled to their opinion. But facts are facts, and I invite anyone to show me unequivocal proof that this is not the case. I read the archived discussion and saw no such proof. That's only two, you tagged many more. What is your argument for those, or should their tags be conceded?] (]) 21:44, 27 June 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sock comments stricken. -- ] (]) 06:14, 30 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
::: is not compliant with MEDRS. You are using poor sources to argue against better sourcing. Medical Acupuncture was previously ]. | |||
:::{{cite journal| title=Acupuncture for depression| journal=Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews| date=17 March 2004| volume=2004| editor1-first=Caroline A|issue=3|pages=CD004046| doi= 10.1002/14651858.CD004046.pub2| url=http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab004046.html| editor1-last=Smith|accessdate=2 May 2008| pmid=15846693| last1=Smith| first1=CA| last2=Hay| first2=PP| last3=Smith| first3=Caroline A | archiveurl= http://web.archive.org/web/20080421190430/http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab004046.html| archivedate= 21 April 2008}} | |||
:::We are currently using a Cochrane review for depression. You should not continue to repeatedly add poor sources to argue against MEDRS compliant reviews. ] (]) 21:54, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
Have trimmed this "A 2013 systematic review found high-level evidence to support the use of acupuncture for major depressive disorders in pregnant women. <ref>{{cite pmid|24761171}}</ref> | |||
In a 2014 secondary analysis, patients with depression and comorbid pain recovered sooner with acupuncture than patients receiving either counselling or usual care. <ref>{{cite pmid|24793257}}</ref>" The ref for the first one has a very low impact factor and the second is a primary source. ] (] · ] · ]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 22:34, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:The previous discussion resulted in . See ]. ] (]) 22:39, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::We have a much higher impact factor here ] (] · ] · ]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 22:46, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
The Med. Acupture source . ] (]) 00:03, 28 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:<s>Hi, QuackGuru, it was not the Med Acupuncture source, it was a different source. Further, I did not give my consensus to remove Med Acupuncture as a source. It is a peer reviewed journal and it meets Misplaced Pages's standards. ] (]) 01:44, 28 June 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sock comments stricken. -- ] (]) 06:14, 30 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
::The source you added is from . See (PMID 24781054). The source is not a . ] (]) 02:05, 28 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
{{reflist|close=1}} | |||
== Interesting edit == | |||
This edit was . I'm going to go read the again. ] (]) 22:15, 27 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
== Sceptic source == | |||
The ] resulting in . I believe the is User:Klocek was . ] (]) 00:05, 28 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
== Another source from Nature == | |||
I . For such claims we would need a review. I thought this source was previously deleted. See ]. ] (]) 00:09, 28 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:<s>Hi QuackGuru, I updated the nature source, fixing the doi and pmid. Just thought you'd like the know. ] (]) 01:38, 28 June 2014 (UTC)</s> <small>''Sock comments stricken. -- ] (]) 06:14, 30 June 2014 (UTC)</small>'' | |||
::I fixed the ref but it was a . ] (]) 01:50, 28 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
== Sham acupuncture in Germany but not acupuncture in general == | |||
The recently added text is a ] violation: However, a 2013 German review of sham controlled clinical trials found problems in their conclusions and stated not enough evidence to claim "acupuncture and sham acupuncture have no difference in treatment effect" and "acupuncture is just a placebo effect." | |||
The text claims it was a German review. It was not a German review of sham controlled clinical trials in general. It was a Journal of Traditional Chinese Medicine review of sham acupuncture in Germany specifically. The text is not neutrally written and using this source is a WP:WEIGHT violation because it is only about the results from acupuncture in Germany specifically. Also the part "However" is original research. The previous sentence and this sentence are not directly related to each other, anyhow. | |||
was previously deleted from GERAC The diffs show there was no consensus to use the J Tradit Chin Med. source on Misplaced Pages. There was a long discussion at the GERAC talk page. The result was no consensus. There was also a previous discussion that resulted in no consensus for the J Tradit Chin Med. source. See ]. I tried to include (along with other sources) but I to use it. ] (]) 17:15, 28 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:Why WP:WEIGHT? Are you suggesting that it's presenting minority views? Even if it happened deal wit German results specifically, it does certainly not mean that it is presenting "minority views". ] (]) 19:20, 28 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::It is presenting only the minor view of sham in Germany rather than the broader topic of acupuncture in general. If you want to use the source you would move the source to the ] page rather than include it in this article. This is the wrong article for the source. This article is not about German acupuncture. ] (]) 20:02, 28 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
== This statement is more than five years old and is provided solely for historical purposes == | |||
This edit from . The outdated source from 1997 says: "<font color="Red">This statement is more than five years old and is provided solely for historical purposes. Due to the cumulative nature of medical research, new knowledge has inevitably accumulated in this subject area in the time since the statement was initially prepared. Thus some of the material is likely to be out of date, and at worst simply wrong. For reliable, current information on this and other health topics, we recommend consulting the National Institutes of Health's MedlinePlus"</font color="Red"> ] (]) 20:15, 28 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:Correct me if I'm wrong of course, but translating QG's red text above, the source itself admits it is outdated, as I stated in my edit summary, and has no place on our page. I look forward to Jaya-S reverting himself. -] (]) 22:19, 28 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:True, seems reasonable. I think that piece of text is already removed from the article. ] (]) 15:40, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
==Impact factor== | |||
I have trimmed in this edit "A 2014 review found that while acupuncture did not improve the ''in vitro'' ] (IVF) pregnancy rate when performed only at the time of embryo transfer, there was a statistically significant benefit when performed at other, specific, times.<ref>{{Cite pmid | 24854767}}</ref>" as the journal has an impact factor of 1 ] (] · ] · ]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 23:36, 28 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
{{reflist|close=1}} | |||
==A massive revert - What just happened?== | |||
Wow, what just happened here? A massive revert indeed, but what was reverted and why? =P ] (]) 15:33, June 29, 2014 (UTC) | |||
:Everything from the last point that Klocek began editing again was removed. If there was some small amount of valid material lost in the reversion, I trust that responsible editors can add it back.—](]) 15:36, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::I don't know whether that was reverted by a new user or an indefinitely blocked user, but if it is a new user, this is my advice: You have to cite references for every sentence you plan to add to any article of wikipedia and avoid removing sentences with references. This article is written as per the policies of wikipedia which is that all complementary and alternative medicine articles should be written, not from the perspective of its advocates/practitioners, but from the perspective of 'researchers and scientists'. If you want to complain about wikipedia's policies, please do what '''LeadSongDog''' mentioned on the Talk:Homeopathy page (and tell me also about it, on my ). I'm probably the only sympathiser you'll find here, so please follow my advice or else you will get blocked, banned or topic banned (from this article).—] (]) 16:28, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::What was reverted was all changes made after an indefinitely blocked sockpuppet began making a large series of edits. The article was restored to a previous version. This is often done when an editor who winds up blocked makes multiple changes to an article. It is then up to involved editors to redo valid edits that were lost in the revert. | |||
:::Adding a link to a largely unrelated discussion repeatedly is not needed. If your point is follow policy or try to change policy, say that. It's generally not necessary, if specific policy is not being followed point out the specific edit that doesn't follow policy, indicate the specific policy and explain how it doesn't follow that policy. | |||
:::Short version, stop spamming the same comment on multiple talk pages. - - ] (]) 17:09, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::: Quack Guru proposed this massive revert but did not make a good faith effort to get consensus to do so. The questionable edits could have been removed (or better, discussed) one by one. I asked him not to do it on his talk page. Where is the consensus to do this? Since QG was banned for a bit, shall we revert to a version before QG started editing? ] (]) 20:29, June 29, 2014 (UTC)) | |||
::::: This is standard practice. It is usually nearly impossible to fix these types of things one edit at a time, so a mass revert is done. Klocek's duplicity and use of many sock puppets has been exposed here: ]. See this too: ]. -- ] (]) 00:54, 30 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
All the "valid material lost in the reversion" was restored. I checked all the recent and past edits and updated the article. ] (]) 22:40, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:Even if it is standard practice, shouldn't there be consensus?] (]) 04:28, 30 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::It's policy: ]. The reason is precisely this kind of event, where someone violates his block, damages an article nearly beyond repair, and other editors then try to claim that consensus is necessary to undo the damage.—](]) 05:10, 30 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::Hmmm, I see one suspected (proven?) sock of klocek that was active here, who made a handful of very noticeable edits. During that time Middle8 and others made many well sourced edits. Are you telling me that all of Middle8's work was restored? If so that is fine, but it would have been WAY easier to just undo the edits Milliongoldcoin or whatever the user name was, rather than to revert everything and then try to redo all the good faith edits. And forgive me for being doubtful that QG faithfully restored other editors' work, I just don't buy it, but I don't have time to check it. That's why I am opposed to this overly bold move. ] (]) 05:55, 30 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::: You're walking a very lonely road on this one. This is how we do it, so get used to it. You are welcome to check the contribution history and see if any good content has been lost. Then try to restore it. -- ] (]) 06:02, 30 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
Not satisfying in the least. You're saying "my questionable skeptic buddy gets to undo ANYTHING he wants and its up to you to redo all the work he messed up" - I just can't accept that. You need to get support before undoing everyone else's work, especially when you are a previously banned editor with an ownership problem. And as far as being "used to" disrespectful editing, I have been since 2010 so don't worry about that, doesn't mean I'm not gonna call you on that dismissive and unhelpful response, or QG on his underhanded tactics. ] (]) 06:20, 30 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:I don't think following standard practice for reverting to previous version before multiple edits by indef banned editors needs to go through a consensus seeking first. This technique enjoys widespread support on WP in general to deal with this type of issue. I fully sympathize with the frustration it can cause and the tedium of finding and replacing any worthwhile edits. However it has been stated that all such edits were restored. An assertion of a problem with this instance should be accompanied by some example of something undone and not redone, otherwise what is the point? Without an example we should AGF that the assertion that all worthwhile edits have been restored is true. I understand there have been conflicts with the editor who did the revert and understand some strain to AGF but going to "questionable skeptic buddy" and "underhanded tactics" without any evidence is uncalled for. - - ] (]) 11:28, 30 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
], you seem to be of the opinion that I am at QG's beck and call. I'm not. I didn't act until I saw enough evidence at the SPI to persuade me that Milliongoldcoinpoint was Klocek. Since then, a checkuser has been run that confirmed the relationship. I reverted all of his edits everywhere, as I do with every sock that I block. There was nothing underhanded here except Klocek using sockpuppets to evade his block.—](]) 17:00, 30 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
::: Sorry Kww my beef is with QG and my recent comments were directed at Brangifer, not you. I was over the top, but I think he understands my frustration. ] (]) 17:20, 30 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
Look at . I removed this (PMID 22243605). ] (]) 23:51, 30 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
: What's wrong with the source? I understand the sock edit has to go, any problem with the source? ] (]) 00:43, 1 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
::There may be a problem with the source: "The most recent meta-analysis appearing in Fertility and Sterility on acupuncture was reevaluated in view of the marked heterogeneity of interventions, controls, data analysis, and timing of interventions in the trials that were included. After removing some of the trials and data based on more rigorous standards for a high quality meta-analysis, a significant benefit of the intervention could no longer be shown." ] (]) 04:32, 1 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::From what I understand about an article being NPOV, we should use the source Milliongoldcoinpoint inserted here, as well as put what you, ] mention, right?—] (]) 15:07, 1 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::I think you should read about the . ] (]) 17:27, 1 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
==Commenting about other editors== | |||
This needs to stop. There should be no comments about other editors here. This page is about discussing how to improve this article. Suggested improvements should be based on high quality sources per always. And RfC can be used when there are disagreements. Discussing issues around socks can take place on peoples talk pages or some notice board. The same applies to issues around individual editors. ] (] · ] · ]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 02:41, 4 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
:Seconded, I have been rather dismayed with the various comments that are borderline uncivil that I have seen lately. I think a lot of editors, and I'm not pointing at anyone in particular, have been putting comments out there that are far from constructive in tone. As Doc James said, it's fine to disagree, but there is no need to be snippy with one another. If you feel passionate about something and it's getting heated, do yourself (and all of us) a favor and take a walk, take a few hours away from the computer, and go cool off. An integral part of Misplaced Pages is etiquette and because many editors are not being mindful of this, we have been losing valuable editors. If you're not convinced that this applies to you, review some of your older comments and ask yourself if you could have phrased the comment in a nicer or more polite way. We are here to improve an encyclopedia, we are not here to defame character or to push a POV. If you're not here for these reasons, then it's time to reflect on what you're really doing here. Please, stick to talking about the content and quit arguing over who did what or whom you don't trust. Seriously, enough already. The only discussion that should be taking place on this page is one about the acupuncture article. Rant over. ] (]) 03:26, 4 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
::Thirded; I recognized my role in this when I read Doc's . For example , , and (the latter not wholly unjustified for the same reasons the preceding comments are, and the other two perhaps having some wiggle room given that engagement on user talk pages is in some cases unfruitful, meets IAR). But I like the course change proposed (including the ) and for the sake of editing environment will minimize such comments. It's long past time we got this page to the point where we can solicit broader input and get it to GA status, and that won't happen unless we focus on what matters. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 07:28, 5 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
=="Stated it is X", "described it as X"== | |||
Note: this thread has been moved from ], and is about this ] series of edits: | |||
*: (emphasis added) change "An editorial in Nature '''stated that TCM is''' largely pseudoscience, with no valid mechanism of action for the majority of its treatments" to "An editorial in Nature '''characterized TCM as''' largely pseudoscience, with no valid mechanism of action for the majority of its treatments." ES: ''minor wording change: "stated" ==> "characterized" -- neutral synonym, better prose (we always seem to say "stated", good to vary it'' | |||
* Revert; ES: ''(Reverted to revision 615313825 by QuackGuru (talk): Reverted non neutral change characterised as neutral. (TW)'' | |||
* I posted at the user talk of the reverting editor (see ), and without more to go on other the knowledge that the concern was NPOV, posted at ]. After some discussion (at the point of ) I made this edit: | |||
* : change "An editorial in Nature '''stated that TCM is''' largely pseudoscience, with no valid mechanism of action for the majority of its treatments" to "An editorial in Nature '''described TCM as''' largely pseudoscience, with no valid mechanism of action for the majority of its treatments." | |||
Further discussion ensued. latest version is pasted below. I'm manually annotating pre-existing signatures to indicate discussion was on that page. (whew) --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 12:55, 5 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
"Stated" is a universally-agreed-upon neutral verb, but we use it so much that prose can suffer, so neutral synonyms are desirable. When somebody states that "X is like Y", I assume it's also neutral to say they're "describing" X as Y, or "characerizing" X as Y. Does either of these seem problematic? (Context: was , which surprised me. But the topic area is highly fraught.) Thanks. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 10:28, 4 July 2014 (UTC) <small>originally posted at ]; moved 12:55, 5 July 2014 (UTC)</small> | |||
:"Characterize" is not strictly a synonym for "describe". To characterize means to "define the character or identity of, to mark, distinguish; to be typical or characteristic" (OED). Thus it's a bit less direct than describe/call. ] <sup>]|]|]</sup> 10:44, 4 July 2014 (UTC) <small>originally posted at ]; moved 12:55, 5 July 2014 (UTC)</small> | |||
::A good synonym for "characterize" would be "demarcate", which is exactly what people do when they call something pseudoscience, which is why I thought it was a decent choice. Oxforddictionaries.com (OED's cousin) defines "describe" as "Give an account in words of (someone or something), including all the relevant characteristics, qualities, or events", and defines "characterize" as "Describe the distinctive nature or features of", so they're pretty close. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 11:19, 4 July 2014 (UTC)) <small>originally posted at ]; moved 12:55, 5 July 2014 (UTC)</small> | |||
:::Demarcation is a different thing again: setting the dividing line between things. ] <sup>]|]|]</sup> 16:57, 4 July 2014 (UTC)) <small>originally posted at ]; moved 12:55, 5 July 2014 (UTC)</small> | |||
::::I shouldn't be saying "synonym" when I mean "cousin". "Characterize" isn't the same thing as "describe", but a "word to avoid" in this context? There's a sense of "less direct", but it's also more specific. It seems like a good choice, because it's got some.... characteristics in common with "demarcation". But I guess it seems too close to hedging and therefore not neutral. "Described" is probably better, and I think it's better than "stated".--] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 23:51, 4 July 2014 (UTC)) <small>originally posted at ]; moved 12:55, 5 July 2014 (UTC)</small> | |||
''note - at this point I made the third edit mentioned above, . --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 12:55, 5 July 2014 (UTC)'' | |||
:::::Maybe we should invite ] to this discussion via ] so that Roxy the dog can elaborate on the reasons for reverting? ] (]) 02:47, 5 July 2014 (UTC) <small>originally posted at ]; moved 12:55, 5 July 2014 (UTC)</small> | |||
::::::{{replyto|Flyer22}} - The only reason I didn't is because I didn't think he was interested after . --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 13:16, 5 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::: showed up on my watchlist: "re two edits down -- "described" may be best fit, cf. MOS discussion Special:Diff/615612765/615634335" | |||
:::::Where is the agreement in this thread for the change? I prefer "found" but can live with "stated". ] (]) 05:17, 5 July 2014 (UTC) <small>originally posted at ]; moved 12:55, 5 July 2014 (UTC)</small> | |||
::::::{{replyto|QuackGuru}} - At the time of posting, the discussion had proceeded only as far as 23:51, 4 July 2014 above, i.e. my and Alexbrn's exchange. I thought his comments made a lot of sense, so using those, I undertook a second round of a ] cycle. I'd prefer "stated" to "found", as "found" goes beyond "stated" imo, but if you & others are OK with "described", I think that's better prose. IMO, "An editorial in '']'' characterized TCM as largely pseudoscience" is a lot better than "An editorial in '']'' stated that TCM is largely pseudoscience...". I'm not looking for anything different in meaning from "stated". And if "stated" is what people want, "stated" it will remain. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 13:16, 5 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
{{od}} | |||
On inspection, this isn't primarily a dispute over word choice, but about neutrality: to what extent does Misplaced Pages assert that acupuncture ''is'' pseudoscience (flavouring it so with words such as "found" or "noted") or suggest more that this is an opinion ("characterized", "described", etc.). I suggest that this perma-discussion is better continued on the ] article's Talk page. ] <sup>]|]|]</sup> 05:41, 5 July 2014 (UTC) <small>originally posted at ]; moved 12:55, 5 July 2014 (UTC)</small> | |||
::{{replyto|Alexbrn}} - as far as assertion as fact goes, you may remember our discussion about demarcation aways back, cf. my reply to RexxS below. As far as word choice goes, my intent was to stay neutral, hence posting here. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 13:21, 5 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
:My reasons for reverting were clear in the edit summary. The difference between "stated" and "characterised" is not insignificant, the source did not characterise, it stated. The result, before my revert, allowed a little more wiggle room in the meaning of the sentence. Apart from improving the article, I just made a small repair to the dam, like putting a hand over a hole, just to help stem the tide of fringe pushing. -] (]) 07:51, 5 July 2014 (UTC) <small>originally posted at ]; moved 12:55, 5 July 2014 (UTC)</small> | |||
:::{{replyto|Roxy the dog}} Your edit summary, "Reverted non neutral change characterised as neutral", and subsequent discussion (see ) revealed that your concern was NPOV. Next time if you give me a little more detail, I'll have something to work with and can do a proper ] cycle. Anyway, Alexbrn helped me surmise that the concern might be about wiggle room, hence "described", if people are OK with that. And FFS, man, AGF a bit; this wasn't a POV push, just a prose improvement, as promised. --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 13:21, 5 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
:: For me, the distinction is a reflection of ]: assert simple facts. When an authoritative source (in this case an editorial in ''Nature'') makes a statement that is not contradicted by another equally good source, we should be treating it as fact and reporting it in Misplaced Pages's voice, like this: "X is true". When there is significant disagreement between sources, then we neutrally report the ''opinions'' of the sources by attributing those opinions, like this: "A states X is true; but B states X is false". Sometimes we end up with "A states that X is true", which informs the reader within the prose of the source of that conclusion (even though the citation is easy enough to click on), but starts to mimic the construction we use for disputed conclusions. When the dispute is only among the editors, not among the reliable sources, I'd prefer to stick with ASF. A further change of "A stated X is Y", ("found" or "concluded" are useful alternatives for stylistic variation) to "A described X as Y" (or "characterised") emphasises the author rather than the conclusion and casts the statement even more as an opinion. --] (]) 10:48, 5 July 2014 (UTC) <small>originally posted at ]; moved 12:55, 5 July 2014 (UTC)</small> | |||
:::{{replyto|RexxS}} -- WP's guideline/policy (it's wobbled between both, like RS <==> V) on demarcation is ]. It says "Proposals which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community, such as astrology, may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience" and "Hypotheses which have a substantial following but which critics describe as pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect; however it should not be described as unambiguously pseudoscientific while a reasonable amount of academic debate still exists on this point." Obviously we follow RS, and sufficiently weighted RS don't call a topic pseudoscience, then we don't. (A higher threshold -- presence of a source meeting ] calling a topic pseudoscience -- has also been accepted in some topics. But for this discussion I won't apply it.) So we generally follow more than one RS. Acupuncture is considered to be a borderline case, rather than outright pseudoscience or science, by ], in a book coedited by ] (). There are others, more calling it pseudo than borderline, but enough of the latter to miss the "generally considered" threshold -- hence attribution of the Nature source. But again, I'm not looking for any connotation different from "stated". I hope "described" is that simply because "An editorial in '']'' characterized TCM as largely pseudoscience" is a lot better than "An editorial in '']'' stated that TCM is largely pseudoscience...". --] <small>(] • ] • ])</small> 13:18, 5 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
{{od}} | |||
{{ec}} The first question to ask is "why are attributing to ''Nature'', rather than stating the fact?" If we are basing our content solely on the ''Nature'' source, without any other equally reliable source that contradicts it, then we should be reflecting the conclusions of that source as fact, not as merely an opinion. As far as I can see, the source concludes that TCM is largely pseudoscience, with no valid mechanism of action for the majority of its treatments. I'm puzzled why we didn't simply write that? --] (]) 13:24, 5 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
: I think it's clear that neither ''Nature'' nor Misplaced Pages is describing acupuncture as "unambiguously pseudoscientific", despite little dispute that meridians, qi and acupuncture points are about as scientific as astrology. Michael Shermer has created a rather unique triple system of classifications - that of scientific, pseudoscientific, and borderline that isn't reflected in the mainstream. And that's the key point - it's the mainstream scientific viewpoint that determines whether a topic is science or pseudoscience. An editorial from ''Nature'' is going to carry a lot more weight when evaluating the mainstream view than a book from a couple of authors - particularly when those authors believe acupuncture is in the same category as ]. | |||
: This description in ] is pertinent: | |||
:* {{tq|"To determine whether something is pseudoscientific or merely an alternative theoretical formulation, consider this: Alternative theoretical formulations generally tweak things on the frontiers of science, or deal with strong, puzzling evidence—which is difficult to explain away—in an effort to create a model that better explains reality. Pseudoscience generally proposes changes in the basic laws of nature to allow some phenomenon which the supporters want to believe occurs, but lack the strong scientific evidence or rigour that would justify such major changes."}} | |||
: Which one is closest to what we're looking at here? | |||
: If I look at a Google search on <kbd>acupuncture pseudoscience</kbd>, I get 80K ghits and browsing through them, they all seem to equate acupuncture with pseudoscience. On the other hand, searching on <kbd>acupuncture "not pseudoscience"</kbd> gives me 1.2K ghits. That's not proof, of course, but it does indicate the difficulty of trying to argue that the mainstream scientific view is 'acupuncture is not pseudoscience'. If you want to attribute ''Nature'', then you will need to provide and attribute the contradictory source without breaching ]. Frankly I don't think anything along the lines of: | |||
:* {{!xt|An editorial in ''Nature'' stated that TCM is largely pseudoscience, but ] stated that acupuncture is borderline science.}} | |||
: is likely to find consensus as being a balanced representation of the scientific mainstream. YMMV, of course. --] (]) 14:20, 5 July 2014 (UTC) |
Latest revision as of 15:16, 8 January 2025
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Semi-protected edit request on 24 September 2024
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I would like to make some suggestions to the acupuncture page. I do understand it is a contentious topic but believe some added edits and updated references would add better context as the WHO among others is expanding the use of traditonal medicine practices and has added a specific chapter in ICD11 for Traditional Medicine Acupuncture titled TM1
collapse long requested changeset |
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Change X - the theories and practices of TCM are not based on scientific knowledge, and it has been characterized as quackery.] to Y – . There is a range of acupuncture technological variants that originated in different philosophies, and techniques vary depending on the country in which it is performed. However, it can be divided into two main foundational philosophical applications and approaches; the first being the modern standardized form called eight principles TCM and the second being an older system that is based on the ancient Daoist wuxing, better known as the five elements or phases in the West. Acupuncture is most often used to attempt pain relief, though acupuncturists say that it can also be used for a wide range of other conditions. Acupuncture is generally used only in combination with other forms of treatment. The global acupuncture market was worth US$24.55 billion in 2017. The market was led by Europe with a 32.7% share, followed by Asia-Pacific with a 29.4% share and the Americas with a 25.3% share. It was estimated in 2021 that the industry would reach a market size of US$55 billion by 2023. Change X – ] to Y – . Acupuncture is generally safe when done by appropriately trained practitioners using clean needle technique and single-use needles. When properly delivered, it has a low rate of mostly minor adverse effects. When accidents and infections do occur, they are associated with neglect on the part of the practitioner, particularly in the application of sterile techniques. A review conducted in 2013 stated that reports of infection transmission increased significantly in the preceding decade. The most frequently reported adverse events were pneumothorax and infections. Since serious adverse events continue to be reported, it is recommended that acupuncturists be trained sufficiently to reduce the risk. Change X – and many modern practitioners no longer support the existence of life force energy (qi) or meridians, which was a major part of early belief systems.] to Y - However, modern research substantiates the effectiveness of Acupuncture. Studies using functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) have shown that acupuncture elicits changes in the brain that correlate with neurological effects. As confirmed by the world-renowned Cleveland Clinic, “Acupuncture affects the limbic and para-limbic networks in the brain and has a deep hemodynamic response, which is influenced by the psychophysical response. Acupuncture also stimulates the nervous system and improves conduction and communication between nerves. This improved functioning of the nervous system stimulates neurotransmitter actions and the release of the body’s natural endorphins and other opioids. For example, serotonin may be released following acupuncture, therefore helping patients feel more relaxed and sustain a sense of well-being that lasts for hours thereafter, if not longer. Research has also shown acupuncture’s ability in relieving myofascial pain by releasing muscular trigger points with ensuing concomitant anti-inflammatory effects.” Acupuncture is believed to have originated around 100 BC in China, around the time The Inner Classic of Huang Di (Huangdi Neijing) was published, though some experts suggest it could have been practiced earlier. Over time, conflicting claims and belief systems emerged about the effect of lunar, celestial and earthly cycles, yin and yang energies, and a body's "rhythm" on the effectiveness of treatment. Acupuncture fluctuated in popularity in China due to changes in the country's political leadership and the preferential use of rationalism or scientific medicine. Acupuncture spread first to Korea in the 6th century AD, then to Japan through medical missionaries, and then to Europe, beginning with France. In the 20th century, as it spread to the United States and Western countries, spiritual elements of acupuncture that conflicted with scientific knowledge were sometimes abandoned in favor of simply tapping needles into acupuncture points. Add Y – . Add Y – Change X: [Clinical practice Acupuncture is a form of alternative medicine. It is used most commonly for pain relief, though it is also used to treat a wide range of conditions. Acupuncture is generally only used in combination with other forms of treatment. For example, the American Society of Anesthesiologists states it may be considered in the treatment of nonspecific, noninflammatory low back pain only in conjunction with conventional therapy. ] to to Y: Clinical Practice Acupuncture is a form of alternative medicine. It is used most commonly for pain relief, though it is also used to treat a wide range of conditions. Acupuncture is generally only used in combination with other forms of treatment. For example, the American Society of Anesthesiologists states it may be considered in the treatment of nonspecific, noninflammatory low back pain only in conjunction with conventional therapy. Practitioners who practice Acupuncture are trained and take didactical coursework and clinical practice in their education; and, pass the National Certification Commission for Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine (NCCAOM) board exams, or a state-specific licensing exam in California. The Acupuncture training program includes techniques such as cupping, gua sha tui na, moxibustion, herbal medicine, lifestyle and nutrition based on Traditional Medicine principles. There is current research supporting that acupuncture has efficacy with pain management being the most well-known application. Conceptually, it is believed to stimulate the body's meridians, or energy-carrying channels, in an attempt to correct imbalances and to restore health. These benefits are thought to be derived from the proximity of acupoints with nerves through intracellular calcium ions. This lesson outlines a brief history of acupuncture and how it may be used to treat various types of physical and emotional pain and specific conditions, including overactive bladder and psoriasis. Acupuncture has been demonstrated to enhance endogenous opiates, such as dynorphin, endorphin, encephalin, and release corticosteroids, relieving pain and enhancing the healing process. Of particular note is that Acupuncture is now incorporated by highly-acclaimed Western Medicine providers as part of a treatment plan for numerous conditions. The world-renowned Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center endorses the newly updated Society of Integrative Oncology’s recommendations for acupuncture for breast cancer patients with joint pain. . Medical institutions such as the Mayo Clinic, National Cancer Institute, City of Hope, and Cleveland Clinic also integrate Acupuncture into their patients care programs. Sam Collins 33 (talk) 19:39, 24 September 2024 (UTC) |
- This is a hodgepodge of content copied verbatim from copyrighted sources. It can't be used. ScienceFlyer (talk) 20:04, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
- Also,
Historical records as old as 3,500 years demonstrate the effectiveness of Acupuncture
is invalid reasoning - argumentum ad antiquitatem - not consistent with WP:MEDRS, to give just one example. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:45, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
- Also,
This article is racist
It must be changed. 2600:100F:A110:4802:ED55:9578:694F:5135 (talk) 22:14, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
- Opposing quackery such as acupuncture and Traditional Chinese Medicine does not make me a racist. Why?
Quoted by tgeorgescu (talk) 22:16, 23 October 2024 (UTC)If an Indian, American, British, Nigerian or Brazilian scientist makes an empirical claim about the body, they're expected to prove it, and that proof must be replicable. Why should it be different for Chinese scientists?
— User:WLU
Edit request on 3 December 2024
perennial complaints of 'bias' have been addressed countless times already |
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It is not “neutral” to immediately dismiss acupuncture as “pseudoscience in the first paragraph and subheading. That is an expression of opinion that fails to take into account years of scientific research on the topic accepted by the US NIH and other major health organizations. I recommend that the current “pseudoscience” sentence be supplanted by a sentence stating “The U.S. National Institutes of Health (NIH) states “there’s evidence that acupuncture may have effects on the nervous system, effects on other body tissues, and nonspecific (placebo) effects. (https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/acupuncture-effectiveness-and-safety) The current “psuedoscience” sentence can be attributed to critics of the field, e.g., “Critics have dismissed the scientific research on the effects of acupuncture and characterized it as psuedoscience” — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kindlerva (talk • contribs) 18:16, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
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