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Latest revision as of 19:43, 8 January 2025 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,303,439 editsm Archiving 1 discussion(s) to Talk:War in Donbas/Archive 12) (bot |
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* RM, War in Donbas → War in Donbas (2014–2022), '''Moved''', 5 June 2022, ] |
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* RM, War in Donbas (2014–2022) → War in Donbas, '''Moved''', 17 October 2023, ] |
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== Border Crossings == |
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== Infobox end date == |
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For the map, could we have some type of symbol the repersents border crossings? Ukrainian forces made gains to took some important ones.—] (]) 19:21, 11 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::{{ping|Arbutus the tree}} I've added in border post capability. The symbol looks like this: ]. ] — ] 04:12, 12 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::The downside of this symbol is that it's not possible to show who controls the post (unlike the bridge symbol used in the Syria & Iraq maps, where a colored dot can be place between the lines). ] (]) 14:03, 20 July 2014 (UTC) |
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== Huge defeat of Ukrainian forces in the South == |
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There is a cascading news about large part of Ukrainian forces being surrounded in the southern area and cut off from the rest of the ATO force, while being pounded by rebel artillery, news is accompanied by numerous videos showing rebel howitzers and newly captured tanks entering villages and fortifications in the area. I believe looking at previous events that this news will filter to the West in 4-5 days, as of now even some pro-Maidan news sources reported huge losses and withdrawal of National Guard and Ukrainian Army. |
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Sample video of newly captured howitzers and tanks(I believe capture of howitzers is new development_ |
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Just to let you know. |
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--] (]) 22:49, 16 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:Well, what "non-Western" sources indicate this? Also, we must make sure that reliable sources publish such information before making any sort of mention. ] ] 22:51, 16 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::It is unhelpful to be left with YouTube links, which we can't use. We need reliable sources. ] — ] 22:56, 16 July 2014 (UTC) |
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So far BBC reported only heavy fighting in the areas mentioned, like said we will have to wait around 5 days before the news eventually emerges in the West.Although some unreliable pro-Maidan sources like Kyiv Post mentioned encirclement already.—] (]) 23:18, 16 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::Can you provide the appropriate Kyiv Post article? ] — ] 00:52, 17 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:I don't think there's any hurry. Even English language Russian outlets (RT and RiaNovosti) are lagging behind what's appearing in Russian language blogs and Novorossian Web sites. – ] (]) 04:04, 17 July 2014 (UTC) |
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More Info is emerging about Ukranian aircraft destroyed, by alleged Russian missiles. A article about Ukranian Aircraft Destroyed during 2014 Eastern Unrest/Crisis/Whatever its needed, giving a breakdown, and indicating witch aircraft is reported loss by the Insurgents or by Russian fire.] (]) 13:00, 17 July 2014 (UTC) |
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==Malaysia Airlines crash== |
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New article at ]. ] (]) 18:37, 17 July 2014 (UTC) |
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== ], Ukraine Primeminister describes insurgency as '''war''' 3 times today == |
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] (President of Ukraine) also describes the conflict as '''war''' every week. So do the rebels and various other belligerents. Links are easy to find. Why does one wiki editor concentrate religiously on the use of the word '''insurgency'''? |
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Support to rename the 'insurgency' to war. |
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*'''Support''' for the above reasons. ] (]) 13:05, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*What Mr Poroshenko says is irrelevant, as he is a primary source. What matters is if reliable secondary sources call it a war. At present, they still seem to be holding off. ] — ] 13:37, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
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**'''Comment''' - quick search for Ukrainian Civil War in Google, plenty of recent articles such as: |
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**The last reference even refers to eastern Ukraine as "war-torn".] (]) 21:19, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::The first one does use civil war. The Kyiv Post one expressly denies that there is a "civil war". The third one doesn't even use the word, except in reference to Syria. ] — ] 21:27, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::::No, but it does say there is a '''war''' of some description, even if it is not a civil one. The third reference says Ukraine is "war-torn", so does say there is a war on really. I've changed my viewpoint on the name now (see below), but still think a name change is needed. ] (]) 21:45, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' for above reasons. ] (]) 21:16, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
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**'''Comment''' in such a case, I think the appropriate title should be '''Ukrainian Civil War''' ] (]) 21:16, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::'''Comment''' further research suggests that perhaps '''Russia-Ukraine war''' would be more appropriate a name, in the same vein as the ] naming. ] (]) 21:45, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::Nice bit of ]. Sources? ] — ] 21:54, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*It isn't an appropriate title, unless reliable secondary sources are using it. They are not. ] — ] 21:17, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*If you were to call this a civil war, that means that the Chechen wars would also have to be renamed civil wars. How about "2014 war in Donbass", or "2014 Ukrainian Anti-Terrorist Operation" <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 16:30, 26 July 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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'''Please note that a formal move request has been established in the section directly below.''' ] (]) 21:56, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
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== Renaming request == |
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{{requested move/dated|Russo-Ukrainian war}} |
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] → {{no redirect|Russo-Ukrainian war}} – Same naming convention as ]. Most news outlets now referring to the conflict as a "war", especially in the aftermath of ]. '''Ukrainian Civil War''' would be an acceptable alternative name. ] (]) 21:53, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Strong Oppose''' – Talk about ]. Can't make up your mind about who's fighting who, eh? Is it Russia against Ukraine, or a "civil war" between Ukrainians? I've never seen a more flippant proposal, and it isn't at all backed by reliable sources. ] — ] 21:58, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::Am I not allowed to change my mind? I put it was a civil war originally as I was listening to BBC News at the time and they described it as such, but then I searched the web a bit more and realised that it really wasn't one. What's wrong with that? ] (]) 22:03, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::::Because they are two entirely different things, neither is verifiable, and saying that both are "acceptable alternatives" makes it clear that you haven't thought out what you wrote, and have no experience with the topic. ] — ] 22:10, 18 July 2014 (UTC)io |
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:::'''Comment''' I'll not get too involved any further anyway, it's not my primary area of expertise to be honest, as you'll see on my user page... I've only been dragged into it because of the MH17 tragedy as planes are more of my area ] (]) 22:07, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Strong Oppose''' Concerning to the 1st suggestion, we can't rename an article based on allegations. Concerning to the 2nd suggestion, the insurgency is limited to Donbass, not all Ukraine.] (]) 22:41, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''': The conflict is between pro-Russian insurgents and the Ukrainian supporters. Where does Russia actually play in? ] ] 04:49, 19 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::At the moment, it is a matter of point of view. Ukrainian media and government both consider this a direct war with Russia. I've spoke to some people in Donetsk, and they agree with this assessment. They say there are no actual separatists, just "Little Green Men" and forcible conscripts. Note that the Ukrainian Misplaced Pages page for this event is written in that manner. Of course, this is all original research, nothing worth basing an encyclopaedia article on. Russia portrays it, on the other hand, as a civil war between two different indigenous Ukrainian forces. The Russian Misplaced Pages page is written in that manner. The thing is, it isn't our job to pick and choose between the available options floating around. We've got to report what reliable sources say. At the moment, both "civil war" and "war against Russia" are not the common names. The word "war" is sometimes used, but usually in a vague sense. I've found that the word "conflict" is much more common than war. Regardless, that's a different discussion. ] — ] 05:12, 19 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::{{ping|RGloucester}} Perhaps ]? ] ] 05:17, 19 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::::"Civil" is inappropriate, because, as I said, that is disputed. Ukrainian sources deny entirely that this is a civil war, as you'll see in the Kyiv Post article that the guy who started this request cited. Furthermore, it isn't used in reliable mainstream western sources. It would have to be plain "conflict", as that's the only neutral descriptor that is being used in the western media, in addition to things like "insurgency". However, I'm not sure that's an improvement on the present title. ] — ] 05:22, 19 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' – WP:RS issues and the fact that Russia isn't directly involved in what really isn't much of a war in the first place. ] (]) 05:08, 19 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Strong oppose to any renaming, and strong oppose to moving without a redirect'''. I am fed up with the way this article keeps changing name or splitting and migrating. I think it started off as ], but that split and migrated and this bit became ], and then it got changed to ]. As for moving with no redirect - that is the worst idea of all.--] (]) 12:44, 19 July 2014 (UTC) If the article is moved :(, then a redirect is needed. This article is leaving a trail or article moves and redirects. Breaking the chain messes up the user's ability to follow the edit history, as text leaps article to article.—] (]) 14:11, 19 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::Where are you getting the idea about it "moving without a redirect"? The edit history is entirely intact, and whenever a page is moved there is alway a redirect. ] — ] 14:47, 19 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::I am getting the idea, because that is what is in the redirect proposal! See <nowiki>] → {{no redirect|Russo-Ukrainian war}} </nowiki>—] (]) 15:27, 19 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::::There would be a redirect if it was moved. There isn't one now, because it has been moved. ] — ] 15:28, 19 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::I am sure that I have seen moves done leaving no redirect at the old article name.—] (]) 15:34, 19 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::That's called a ]. We are not allowed to do that. Requested move discussions never result in a cut-and-paste move. Ever. That's something that would be done unilaterally and incorrectly. ] — ] 15:36, 19 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::You are mistaken. Some move discussions result in the page being moved leaving no redirect under the old page name. This is equivalent of the move taking place and the redirect page being deleted. The moved page has the article history, it just leaves no redirect behind it. The move proposal as written appears to be proposing this.—] (]) 15:52, 19 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:It isn't proposing that, and I've never heard of that being done. If the proposer didn't specifically say that, I don't think that's what he meant. It certainly isn't what I meant with regard to my proposal. ] — ] 15:58, 19 July 2014 (UTC) |
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* '''Proposal''' - The Red Cross officially recognizes the conflict as a civil war now . '''<span style="color:#4169E1;"><big>]</big>]<big></nowiki>]]</big></span>''' ] 22:22, 26 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::*'''Redundant proposal''' – This has already been proposed by the OP, and it is a non-starter. It is hopeless POV. Furthermore, as I've explained to many people, the Red Cross did not say it was a civil war. Please read the actual . Do you see the words "civil war"? No. You don't. "Non-international armed conflict", the words used, to what is called an "internationalised non-international armed conflict". In other words, that phrase does not preclude foreign involvement in the way that "civil war" does. ] — ] 22:56, 26 July 2014 (UTC) |
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==="War in Donbass"=== |
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*'''Proposal''' - I think something like "War in Donbass" might be appropriate. There is a lot of use of "war" and "conflict". "Civil" is contested and a matter of POV, so that must be left out. As the "war" is confined to Donbass, I think the regional clarification is needed. I'd think that this title would be a nice ] title. It is neutral, it descirbes the situation adequately, it is recognisable, concise, and precise. ] — ] 06:10, 19 July 2014 (UTC) |
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**{{ping|RGloucester}} So this excludes "2014"? ] ] 06:14, 19 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::Yes,on the basis that there has been no war called "War in Donbass", similar to ]. I'm not sure whether I support such a chance, but I'm willing to see what other people say. ] — ] 14:54, 19 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::*'''Strong Support''' for War in Donbass. ] (]) 12:53, 19 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::Reaper - was there a reason for supporting that particular change of name? If there was, please could you tell us what is was. Move discussions are done, in part, on the basis of the arguments for and against.--] (]) 14:09, 19 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::::::Of course, please read just above your head, also many media outlets are now deciding War is the word to describe the conflict. https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:2014_insurgency_in_Donbass#Arseniy_Yatsenyuk.2C_Ukraine_Primeminister_describes_insurgency_as_war_3_times_today ] (]) 15:07, 19 July 2014 (UTC) |
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***Now that is a good idea. I don't think "2014" would be necessary in this title as there haven't been any other "Wars in Donbass", other than conflicts that have affected the whole of the country and therefore named appropriately (e.g. ]). I thought you weren't allowed to change your mind though, eh RGloucester ;) ] (]) 04:30, Today (UTC−4) |
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*I can safely say that I now support using the word "war". Please see this New York Times article, titled "". Other sources above already use "war", as does . I voice my '''strong support''' for the title "War in Donbass". ] — ] 21:52, 19 July 2014 (UTC) |
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* '''Strong support''' 'War' more frequently used in media than 'insurgency' and more accurate. No need to include '2014'. ] (]) 00:11, 20 July 2014 (UTC) |
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* '''Support''' for "War in Donbass" ] (]) 07:37, 20 July 2014 (UTC) |
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* '''Strong Support''' for "War in Donbass", but lets try not to change the names of articles to frequently.—] (]) 09:54, 20 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::I hope that this will be the last move for a long time. I can't see any reason why it would change. ] — ] 16:23, 20 July 2014 (UTC) |
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* '''Strong support''' for "War in Donbass" per above. Knew we'd be able to find something eventually. Perhaps close the other move request above (it has no support) and open a formal one here for War in Donbass now? Hopefully we can get it done soon and then there won't be any further changes for a while. ] (]) 16:59, 20 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::No need. This discussion is already open, no reason to close it. The administrator who does will assess consensus after seven days, and if it is in support of either proposal, he will close it accordingly. ] — ] 17:03, 20 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:{{replyto|RGloucester}} '''War in Donbass''' may no longer be needed. This article by the washington post describes that conflict as a civil war, since the amount of casualties has exceeded 1,000. Even though it only takes place in Donetsk and Lugansk, it still describes it as one. Regardless, if war in donbass is a better title, let's choose that one.--] (]) 17:41, 20 July 2014 (UTC) |
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Read here:http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/07/20/what-do-citizens-of-ukraine-actually-think-about-secession/ |
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::Any inclusion of "civil war" is ]. Many sources contest the idea of it being a civil war, and these include the American Department of Defence, NATO, and various others, such as that New York Times article and the Kyiv Post article above. "War" is an objective description, at this point. Whether it is a proxy war or civil war is up for debate, and a matter of PoV. ] — ] 18:13, 20 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' since it's mostly described as a war, and it is in Donbass. The use of 2014 could eventually be useful for some kind of disambiguation. The wars in the Balkans during the 1990s were also described as wars, not as insurgencies. But we can't be always changing the name of the article so drastically. If it's decided to be changed, I'd have also to agree that any further change should be as minimal as possible.] (]) 18:04, 20 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' – I see no cons and it appears to be a decent proposal to me. I am still unsure about the inclusion of "2014", however. ] ] 18:07, 20 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::Inclusion of "2014" would be ]. There have been no other events called "War in Donbass", and hence, inclusion of the "2014" would be what is called "unnecessary disambiguation". If there is nothing to disambiguate from, we fall back on ]. No need to be overly ]. ] — ] 18:13, 20 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::A current event is not crystal-balling. ] ] 18:48, 20 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::::You misunderstood me. Including "2014" would be "preemptive disambiguation", implying that there would be another "War in Donbass" in the future, necessitating disambiguation. That is crystal-balling. As there is no previous "War in Donbass", and any presumption about a future "War in Donbass" would be crystal-balling, the 2014 is un-needed. ] — ] 18:59, 20 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::I was not completely sure, because the Turks and the Russians fought there in the 18th century, and there could also have been some war or insurgency there during the WW2 or after the October Revolution, but if none of those is <s>not</s> related to Donbass alone, then, I think that the use of "2014" can be avoided.] (]) 19:22, 20 July 2014 (UTC)] (]) 19:25, 20 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:The point is that there has never been another event called "War in Donbass". There may have been previous fighting there, but never was there an event called "War in Donbass". ] — ] 21:10, 20 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::If there has not been any event called with any similar name, than I agree (again, if people looking for any other clues might find it easily). I didn't look all through the Russian-Turkish War, the war after the Russian Revolution, and the WW2, but if you can be sure of that, of course you can have my support to change the name of the article (but don't change it too often, that's something I'd like to ask you, please!) I also appreciate a lot the opinion of Iryna, if that's possible and relevant.... ] (]) 23:49, 20 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::It is like ]. There have been plenty of wars in the area that is now called "Iraq". However, "Iraq War" is the only one called "Iraq War", and hence doesn't take a year. ] — ] 23:49, 20 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::Well, there were 3 Iraq wars, actually, the Iranian-Iraq war, the 1st Gulf War and the 2nd Gulf War. I can disagree with the 3rd one being called the "Iraq War" in Misplaced Pages, but that's not a reason why I would disagree that this article would be called "War in Donbass" or "Donbass War", or whatever you think it's more suitable to call it. As far as no other war previously was called "War in Donbass" or "Donbass War", I agree, and I support, as I already said that I would support it, as far as the name is not always changing (at least so in a so dramatic way)!] (]) 0:38, 21 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Strong oppose'''. Deeply POVed, because by definition, war is carried out by the states, not by a group of local rebels against a central government. ] ] 16:12, 21 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::Not true at all. See : "Hostile contention by means of armed forces, carried on between nations, states, or rulers, or between '''parties in the same nation or state'''; the employment of armed forces against a foreign power, '''or against an opposing party in the state'''". ] — ] 16:14, 21 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Strong Oppose''' – I don't think this really meets the definition of a war. The current name is better than this. ] (]) 16:16, 21 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::The problem, dear fellow, is that reliable sources are using "war", as cited above. Please see the New York Times article, among others. Also, note that I provided the OED definition, and this conflict meets it to the letter. ] — ] 16:18, 21 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::'''Support'''. It appears that "War in Donbass" is a better title than the current one. Only two opposes against an early consensus of several supports. The article's name should be changed. Calling the rebels "insurgents" is very POV and gives this article a strongly pro-West bias. ] (]) 12:41, 22 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::::I'd take into account more the definitions than if it's POV or not, because POV can be used in either ways. According to Misplaced Pages: An insurgency is an armed rebellion against a constituted authority (for example, an authority recognized as such by the United Nations) when those taking part in the rebellion are not recognized as belligerents. A belligerent (lat. bellum gerere, "to wage war") is an individual, group, country, or other entity that acts in a hostile manner, such as engaging in combat. According to the Oxford Dictionary: Insurgent: noun: A person fighting against a government or invading force; a rebel or revolutionary: an attack by armed insurgents; adjective: 1. Rising in active revolt: alleged links with insurgent groups; 1.1. Relating to rebels: a series of insurgent attacks; War: noun: 1. A state of armed conflict between different countries or different groups within a country: Japan declared war on Germany the two countries were at war for the next eight years.] (]) 15:59, 22 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Strong Support''' International Committee of the Red Cross being itself considered a reference in the United Nations deciding when violence has evolved into an armed conflict has assessed that it is a war, but refrained from calling it a civil war.<ref>http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/22/us-ukraine-crisis-warcrimes-idUSKBN0FR0V920140722</ref> ] (]) 17:54, 22 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment''' – With , which states that the ] has officially termed this conflict a "war", I think all questions about whether it is a "war" or not can be thrown out. It certainly is. ] — ] 18:30, 22 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' - Very similar to ]. --] (]) 18:47, 22 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Strong Oppose''' – I read BBC News regularly but they never call this conflict a "War"; Misplaced Pages is suppose to reflect sources, not overrule them.... Secondly per ] "Article titles should be recognizable": Most people do not know that a part of Eastern Ukraine is called "Donbass". The once that do know might think an article "War in Donbass" is about World War II in this area.... or all other armed conflicts ever held in it.... To rename this article "War in Donbass" makes the article less recognizable. Most international press label the conflict an insurgency in Eastern Ukraine. Hence "2014 insurgency in Eastern Ukraine" would be the best name for it. — ''']''' • ] 19:28, 22 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::Except that's not true, Yulia, as shown above. The ICRC, the body which usually decides what is a war and what isn't, specifically says that it is a war. Furthermore, so do many other sources, as shown above, such as the New York Times. No one would think it means "World War II" or anything like that, because there was no war ever called "War in Donbass". Otherwise, we'd have to change the name of ], ], and ], as there has been plenty of fighting in other wars in these places over time, but only one conflict in each called "Iraq War" or ]. Almost no sources label it an "insurgency", and no one has been able to find any as such. Given that sources now call it a war, our naming must follow suit. "Eastern Ukraine", by the way, is unacceptable, as that includes Kharkiv. The war is only in Donbass, and so calling it "eastern Ukraine" would imply that war was larger in scope than in reality. ] — ] 19:49, 22 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::{{Ping|Yulia Romero}} If that's really your concern, we can deal with it in the same way that it is dealt with at ], making a disambiguation page like this ]. Please reconsider your opposition to this proposal. ] — ] 20:06, 22 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::::I don't want this to become petty but . Trying to get a job at Russian TV ]...] — ''']''' • ] 20:58, 22 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::Yulia, I'm the one that named this article "insurgency" in the first place. I'm well aware that the word "insurgent" is used to refer to the people fighting. However, the conflict itself is almost NEVER described as just an "insurgency". It is a conflict between insurgents and the government. Most of the articles at your link describe it as such. Either a conflict, or a war, or whatever, fought by both an insurgency and the government. None refer to the conflict solely as an "insurgency". ] — ] 21:03, 22 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::Well I read English language sources like the ''Financial Times'' and ''The Economist'' that have always covered Ukraine, and they do not refer to something called "War in Donbass". It is not a generally recognised name for what is going on. I do not see this name used in reports on the British Government's BBC either.--] (]) 21:07, 22 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::I know this is personal and we should not write here in such manner, but I hope to convince Yulia towards a general consensus. I think neither RGloucester nor calling this conflict a war is pro-Russian or anti-Ukrainian. Especially considering that Ukrainian government (Chairman of the Verkhovna Rada and former acting Ukrainian president Oleksandr Turchynov consider) calls it this way.] (]) 22:43, 22 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:Do you see anyone calling it "insurgency in Donbass"? No. Usage is all over the place, but our current title is extremely poor by all standards, as it is used absolutely nowhere. We are using a ] title, to avoid taking any kind of point-of-view, and because there is no clear common name. The best way to neutrally describe the current events is "War in Donbass", now, because "insurgency" only reflects on one side of the current conflict, and because the Red Cross, among other sources, call it a war. ] — ] 21:11, 22 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Support.''' It is war red cross says war, people die in war with guns. many guns russian guns ukraine guns. it is clear that war and red cross know as neutral body. absolutely agree with IHasBecauseOfLocks.--] 20:56, 22 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose'''. Current title, ], is best solution, I think. ] (]) 22:55, 22 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:: Why? ] (]) 23:07, 22 July 2014 (UTC) |
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Curiously, by what I've read from the document that justifies calling it a war, contrarily to what is being argued here, it's a term that doesn't favor the insurgents, actually, since being a war implies that they're not only responsible for war crimes under the Ukrainian courts, but also under international courts. And the same applies to Ukrainian government war crimes, I suppose. And it's not favorable to the insurgents in other ways, by what I've read. So, in my opinion, saying that the article being called "War in Donbass" is pro-rebel or pro-Russian biased makes no sense at all.] (]) 23:16, 22 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:I also think in that direction even more. Compered to "War in Donbass", "insurgency in Donbass" is like pro-Russian, pro-rebel.] (]) 23:21, 22 July 2014 (UTC) |
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Google search: "War in Donbass": 719,000 results; "Insurgency in Donbass": 154,000 results.] (]) 23:52, 22 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' War has been shown to be the appropriate name. Thanks. ] (]) 02:36, 23 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' Who is calling this a war? The support opinions I see here seem to be trying to define what the wording of war means. Google hits (]) are not really accurate either as how many in those numbers include blogs or unreliable websites? Show some major news outlets calling this a war and then we can go from there. - ] (]) 03:03, 23 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*{{Ping|Knowledgekid87}} I'd appreciate it if you actually read the discussion instead of commenting without reading. I've provided plenty of sources above. Most notably , which determines whether war crimes trials can be brought before the ICJ and ICC. Also included are the New York Times, Kyiv Post, Reuters, all linked above. I shan't relink then. I expect you to read the discussion above. I'll throw in a few new ones now, like from The New Republic, from ''The Nation'', from ''The New York Times'', this article from the , and from ''The Economist''. I'll have people note that I've fought every "war" proposal to date. The reason I support this one is because it is now supported by the sources, starting with the New York Times article that initiated my vote in support, as seen above. Now that the Red Cross has said this conflict qualifies as "war", there can be no doubt otherwise. ] — ] 03:57, 23 July 2014 (UTC) |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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Can someone from the Ukraine explain why mostly Ukrainian people counter this rename? I am really curious, since not renaming is in my opinion anti-Ukrainian.] (]) 07:43, 23 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*It is not traditional war. It is something new and original in military history, similar to ]. ] (]) 10:33, 23 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::But for sure it is also not a traditional insurgency. So still I don't understand why could calling this an "insurgency" would be better than a "war". ] (]) 11:18, 23 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::Curious, because I looked at the list of proxy wars and I saw the Spanish Civil War there... I never heard anyone call it the "1936-1939 insurgency in Spain".] (]) 15:33, 23 July 2014 (UTC) |
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{{Ping|Nickst}} Well, there is a problem with that NickSt. There are multiple points of view. All call it a "war", but some call it a proxy war, some call it a civil war, some call it a direct war with Russia. The article has a section on that. That's why we use "war", as that is a neutral description that everyone can agree on. We can't, however, add the POV bits "proxy", "civil", or "direct", if we want to be neutral. This proposal does not want to rename the article "Traditional war in Donbass". Just plain "war". ] — ] 15:37, 23 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*I agree with RGloucester that 'War in Donbasa' is a better name (for the time being). I am strongly against adding 'proxy' or 'direct' war. As for 'civil' imho it is somehow …strange…and difficult...to say and decide...because of the restricted territory that the events are taking place. ] (] • ]) 20:02, 23 July 2014 (UTC) |
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'''Comment on what is going on'''. Every few weeks, some editors are trying desperately hard to find a catchy name for this conflict. Millions of people read Misplaced Pages, and if only we could invent a catchy name for it, maybe the name would be adopted by the media, and then find its way into the history books. Do not worry, whether the current proposal succeeds or fails, the same people will be at it again in August with a new name proposal: maybe ] or ]? But this goes against ]: "Misplaced Pages does not publish original thought". |
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Why can we not just wait and see what name this conflict ends up being called?—] (]) 21:43, 23 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::Because it is called a "war", and we know that, as the sources show it. One again, we are not creating a proper name. We are adapting the ] title appropriately. There is no common name, and if ] and ] are any indication, common names are not likely to be established. We are forced to use our editorial judgement to create a ] title that is both ] and ]. The present title fails these points, at present. It isn't neutral, as it focuses on one side of the conflict, and it isn't concise or ], because it isn't a common way to refer to the conflict. The proposed title is neutral, as reliable sources refer to the conflict as a "war", and because it does not take sides at all. It is concise and natural, because it instantly reveals to the reader what it refers to. It is precise, for explaining exactly what is happening: a war in the Donbass region. Like I've said, Toddy, I'm usually one to oppose these spurious move requests. We won't ever be able to satisfy everyone. However, it is necessary for the title to be neutral, precise, and concise. Compromises must be made. ] — ] 21:51, 23 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:To put it straight it is just a matter of whether to call it an insurgency or a war. And we are waiting for now, but I hope not for long as it is time to change. And to tell the truth I think that you, ] are much more prone to original thought. ] (]) 21:57, 23 July 2014 (UTC) |
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] please. Well its not a big thing for me (I do not understand why editors spend hours trying to get articles renamed...) but I believe articles should be named ]. ] and we should not start to name things taking cues from the Red Cross. Let alone start to decide on articles names because we see it as "a war". I don't think personal feelings should be allowed when deciding on articles names but just common names should be used... Case in point: if we call this article "War in Donbass" then the name for the article about the ] does not make sense... Because in the Congo Crisis 100,000 were killed by warfare. Like ] I also can not see the hurry here and why can we not just wait and see what name this conflict ends up being called... Is it not more useful to improof the content of the article then its name? — ''']''' • ] 20:25, 24 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::Except, there isn't a common name at all, and there certainly isn't one that is neutral. The present title is not the common name. And I never said anything about using an "official" name. It isn't personal feelings. It is called ]. If you follow this link, you will realise that many Misplaced Pages articles are at titles that we've made-up, given the lack of a common name, and the necessity that we be ]. We must follow the sources. The sources say that it is a "war". Different sources vary on what "kind of war" they think it is. But they do say that it is a war. Therefore, the ] demands that we be neutral, and use "war". I have been improving the content of the article, and I've also read plenty of sources. It is important that title of the article is neutral, precise, and concise. The present title is not. ] — ] 20:18, 24 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:Lets be precise about that Congo Crisis article. In the beginnig it states it was a series of civil and proxy wars. Unfortunately articles about particular wars were not created - we have much less information about that conflict than this. Today we also have a broader article, called 2014 pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine, but we are talking about an article which relates specifically to this heavily armed, broad scope killing beteen two considerable and well organized forces. And there are no personal feelings other than need of truth. Also Congo Crisis lasted for more than 5 years. If this war in Donbass would last that long with the current killing rate per time, it would cost approximately 31500 lives. ] (]) 21:33, 24 July 2014 (UTC) |
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] says use "Non-judgmental descriptive titles" and "Avoid judgmental and non-neutral words"... How is "war" a "Non-judgmental descriptive title/neutral word"? As I interpretate it ] says the article should be renamed ].... (] is in north-east Ukraine.) — ''']''' • ] 20:39, 24 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::"War" is not a judgemental word. It merely means people fighting with weapons. "Armed conflict" is what is called a euphemism, and the ] to avoid using euphemisms. We call a spade a spade, we don't try and hide behind constructions meant to "mask" the reality. "Southeastern" implies a broader area than just Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts. It would increase the scope of the article to areas like Crimea, Kherson or Zaporizhia, which are not part of this war. "Donbass" is ], and . ] — ] 20:56, 24 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::Without realizing it, Yulia Romero justified, on her own way, the use of the term "War" as a title for this article. According to the '''Oxford Dictionary''', the definition of '''War''' is: noun: 1. A state of '''armed conflict''' between different countries or different groups within a country.] (]) 22:58, 24 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::::Exactly. It fits exactly the definition I linked above. "Armed conflict" is just a ] for "war" that is less ] and less ]. Give that the Manual of Style specifies that we should not use euphemisms, and give the article title guidelines favour the concise, natural ,precise, and neutral, "war" must be used. I've provided about as much guideline and source-based reasoning as I possibly can. ] — ] 23:42, 24 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment''' - I've been watching this RM for a few days and have yet to be convinced that there is any justification for renaming the article, full stop. At what point did this suddenly shift from being an ongoing rebellion to becoming a war? I'm not aware of anything that has necessitated a change of name (other than Yatsenuk's coalition having fallen apart: but that hasn't changed the nature of the subject). —] (]) 02:06, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:Because the present title is inadequate, and does not meet ]. It has been flawed from the start, really, and that is my fault more than anyone else's, since I started the article. It isn't neutral or precise, as it only reflects one side in what is now a multi-faceted war. It is not natural, as "insurgency" quite frankly isn't used at all to refer to the war. The separatists are referred to as "insurgents", but the war is never called an "insurgency". It is not concise, as it doesn't instantly signify to the reader what it is referring to. It masks it, in a way, like a euphemism. It doesn't give the reader the knowledge that the reader needs. It needs to unambiguously define the scope of the article, and at present, it doesn't. Now, we also have many, many sources referring to these events as a "war" (when they did not before), as shown above, notably including the Red Cross, who usually makes this determination. I don't think this ever was a "rebellion", in the conventional sense of the word. Sources vary. Some say proxy war, some say civil war, some say direct war, some say "war". Regardless, we must follow the sources, and also follow our title guidelines. The current title does not meet them. ] — ] 02:28, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::Agreed that the present title is not a good one. Personally, I found myself parsing the term 'insurgent' and not being able to reconcile it with 'insurgency'. Nevertheless, I prefer to err on the side of caution in terms of renaming it without thinking it through carefully. A change to "War in Donbass" would shift the lexicon. 'War' ''is'' a POV term once applied to the content. On the simplest level, the warring parties automatically become 'separatists' versus the government of a sovereign state. What is being assigned is legitimacy to both parties despite the fact that the separatists have no legal recognition and a waging this 'war' within the boundaries of the Ukrainian state. I'd rather stick with an awkward title for a little longer than make bad decisions by not weighing up the entire package. Yes, as you've observed, there are various permutations of the use of 'war' in headlines and articles, but that is precisely the point: there are qualifiers for the use of the word 'war' in every instance. —] (]) 04:10, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::I don't see how "war" is a POV term. It does not imply legitimacy of any of the participants, as has been shown in the Oxford definition I provided. I'm not sure why you think it "automatically becomes separatists versus the government". It merely implies people fighting with weapons on a large scale, which is what these events are. The qualifiers are POV additions, "war" on its own is not POV. It just implies the dictionary definition, which reliable secondary sources agree applies to this conflict. They disagree about what kind of war. Therefore, the only solution is to use "war", which means nothing more than "people fighting with weapons on a large scale", and is used by the ICRC. ] — ] 04:31, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::::I probably should have gone with my initial response which was to support the move. Instead, I suspect I've overthought it rather than being my usual obnoxious, opinionated self. At this point, I'm probably best off thinking about butterflies and fluffy kittens and approaching the matter on a fresh head. —] (]) 04:58, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::As humans, our ability to overthink things is one of our greatest traits. Otherwise, the world would be simple and boring, and we'd never stumble across anything new. Perhaps this is all a bit more ], but it doesn't usually hurt. ] — ] 05:17, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::Well, I've gone Hegelian at this moment. Best that I abstain from making a decision until I've played with a few flawed algorithms and get back on track. Cheers for now. --] (]) 05:39, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::So, you're neutral, right? By the way, it was me who 1st provided the Oxford definition, wasn't it?....] (]) 05:48, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::I did, actually, under Poeticbent's comment… ] — ] 14:55, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::So maybe Ukrainian people try to block this rename because they think that calling it a war will give the other side a legitimacy. Firstly I was not pro-separatist at all. But now I see how Ukrainian people are obsessively countering this rename apparently just to diminish the other side of conflict. So no, I don't want to give separatists a right to rule over Donbass, but I think that on the other side their role should be not diminished. And still I consider that calling it a war is not pro-separatists. Ukrainian people tend to hide their problems until it gets really nasty. ] (]) 06:47, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::{{replyto|IHasBecauseOfLocks}}, see ] and do not use article talk pages to cast bigoted ] about other editors. This is ], and the only person you've indicted as lacking in neutrality is yourself. --] (]) 23:15, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::::Oh, yes, sorry, RGlocester! So, until now I counted 13 supports, 5 oppositions and Iryna abstained. Obviously there is no consensus. Would a qualified majority count? How much would that qualified majority need to be? ] (]) 18:06, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::This is ]. We don't tally votes here. The discussion will continue until an administrator decides that it is suitable for closing, whether in favour or in opposition to the proposal. ] — ] 18:31, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::OK, it's that I don't know how it works, really.] (]) 18:56, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Support'''. Because it's simple, short, neutral and accurately descriptive. If the conflict broadens then the page might need to be renamed again, but at this point in time I agree that "War in Donbass" is the best title. ] (]) 20:15, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*If it's up to an administrator to decide it, unless Iryna Harpy (whose opinion I take a lot into account) expresses another opinion here, I'll abstain from more comments, here, since what is clear for me, for RGloucester and another editors, has already been expressed, clearly. As I said, previously, any further change must be as definitive as possible (with possible very minor changes, like 2014 to 2014-2015, for instance, or so). RGloucester has already mentioned the Oxford Dictionary (which by mistake I thought I had the initiative to mention), a lot of credible sources, including from ], the New York Times, Kyiv Post (a newspaper that can't be consider as pro-Russian, I'm quite sure), Reuters, etc.] (]) 00:23, 26 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Support'''. The insurgency is now recognized as a civil war by the Red Cross . '''<span style="color:#4169E1;"><big>]</big>]<big></nowiki>]]</big></span>''' ] 22:22, 26 July 2014 (UTC) |
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==="2014 Ukrainian Anti-Terrorist Operation"=== |
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*'''Proposal''' - I suggest the article be renamed to "2014 Ukrainian Anti-Terrorist Operation". That is the official name of the conflict in Ukraine. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 16:35, 26 July 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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::Do you have ] for this? If so, please say what they are as part of this discussion.--] (]) 20:29, 26 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose with every ounce of my being''' – Another one-sided title, and a totally ridiculous one at that. It doesn't even encapsulate the scope of the article. What's more, this proposed title is not the "official name of the conflict in Ukraine". It is the name of a government operation against the insurgents as part of a larger war. What's more, it is hopelessly lacking in neutrality. ] — ] 16:44, 26 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Strong oppose''' Does not this look like something countering standards and like some original thought? ] (]) 20:24, 26 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Strong oppose''' Extremely biased name, not specific to Donbass, not used in sources. ] (]) 21:38, 26 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Strong oppose''' That is only the Ukrainian government opperation, it doesn't describe the conflict as a whole.] (]) 23:52, 26 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' – That title would be one-sided, there is not a source provided, and it is too narrow in scope. ] ] 00:00, 27 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' – One-sided and unsourced, per others. ] (]) 01:23, 27 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Very Strongly Oppose''' - one sided, because the operation isn't limited to donetsk and luhansk (were the war is taking place), and it is a biased name--] (]) 06:05, 27 July 2014 (UTC) |
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== map == |
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I noticed that the map's july update was reverted, and there has been some important events, such as Ukrainian forces took south eastern luhansk. Just sayin though, in needs to updated to it's current form--] (]) 07:42, 19 July 2014 (UTC) |
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== Minor edit request == |
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In ''Post-ceasefire government offensive'' section there is an unnecessary preposition ''of''. |
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"Ahead of a planned government offensive on the insurgent-occupied city of Donetsk, key roads leading into the city of were blocked on 7 July." > "Ahead of a planned government offensive on the insurgent-occupied city of Donetsk, key roads leading into the city were blocked on 7 July." <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 12:04, 19 July 2014 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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There is also a not needed article ''the'' before ''Russia'' later. |
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"DPR-affiliated insurgents blamed the Ukrainian government for disaster, whereas the government blamed the Russia and the insurgents." > "DPR-affiliated insurgents blamed the Ukrainian government for disaster, whereas the government blamed Russia and the insurgents." ] (]) 12:27, 19 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*{{Done}} ] — ] 14:56, 19 July 2014 (UTC) |
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==Foreign groups from ''both'' sides must be described in the article== |
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Currently, only foreign groups from the insurgent side are discussed in the article. Foreign groups from the pro-Ukrainian side have also been reported on in mainstream sources, and while some of these reports have attracted criticism from other journalists (such as the reported Academi involvement), others have been accepted as accurate. In the interest of evenhandedness, these groups and volunteers should be mentioned. The can be useful here (starting from the third paragraph, if there is a consensus to not mention the Academi reports in the English article). ] (]) 10:54, 20 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:The link is to ]. I looked in vain for anything of value.—] (]) 13:21, 20 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::You know, Toddy, you have a very wry-style of English. You could go into ] comedy. Nevertheless, I agree with Toddy on this matter. ] — ] 16:26, 20 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::How about the talking about the volunteers from the EU? ] (]) 20:19, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::::Can you find a print version? My computer won't let me watch the video. ] — ] 20:39, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::I don't think so. It's also on Youtube . Can you watch any other video, or is it the Al Jazeera website that's causing the trouble? ] (]) 22:15, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::Esn - maybe you could point us to some articles in the Financial Times that could act as a source - the FT has good coverage of Ukraine.--] (]) 22:50, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::Why don't you just say what you really think, Toddy1, instead of hiding behind sarcasm? But to answer your ''actual'' question, rather than the ''implied'' one, because I didn't find any articles in the Financial Times about this particular issue. ] (]) 23:04, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::Furthermore: Toddy1, if you are seeking to propose that reports from the global news network ] should not be used in articles about Ukraine, then you should say that publicly and let the debate commence. Are you going to do that? ] (]) 23:16, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::::You mean the FT prints news, and background information, and isn't any use when you are looking for a non-Russian source to buttress Russian propaganda lies.--] (]) 23:33, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*For that video, both on Youtube and AJ, it says that "it isn't available in my country". Oh dear! Regardless, print is to be preferred as a source. ] — ] 23:06, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::Ok, how about ? Is there a Misplaced Pages policy which says that print is to be preferred as a source? Even if there is, I think it wouldn't apply in a case where only a video report (in this case, from a major news network) exists, or if the print sources are just 3rd hand re-tellings of the video report. ] (]) 23:16, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::YouTube is not a reliable source.--] (]) 23:33, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::::It's not YouTube, Toddy1. It's an Al Jazeera news report qualified by "Al Jazeera's David Chater reports from Mariupol." in the article. The fact that it's up on YouTube does not disqualify it as a reliable and verifiable source: it just happens that it's linked to their official YouTube channel. --] (]) 23:37, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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{{od}}Verbatim article report: |
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"'''Neo-fascists train to fight Ukrainian rebels'''<br> |
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Volunteers believing in national socialism are joining a battalion raised by the interior ministry. |
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One special forces group, fighting separatists in Eastern Ukraine, is bringing together many self-declared neo-fascists. |
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The volunteers joining the so-called Azov battalion, raised by Ukraine's interior ministry, includes men from Russia, Sweden and Italy who believe in national socialism. |
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What's the precedent for a war being subsumed by another war? When there's a battle, there's start and end dates, and you can implicitly tell its part of a larger war, but titling an article "War in <location>" and having an end date in that infobox seems to suggest the "war" ended, when it didn't actually end, that phase of the war was eclipsed by the much larger invasion. Also, I don't think the "Major combat operations phase ended on 20 February 2015" is very relevant, there was sporadic levels of fighting all throughout 2014-2022. ] (]) 19:25, 25 August 2024 (UTC) |
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Al Jazeera's ] reports from Mariupol. |
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<small>Last updated: 09 Jun 2014 17:03</small>" |
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--] (]) 23:42, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:The solution is straightforward: remove the end date and specify that the conflict was followed by the Russian invasion. ] (]) 14:45, 19 September 2024 (UTC) |
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*I've seen something in the Kyiv Post about foreign "recruits" for the Azov Battalion, but I don't remember where the article was. Some of these "battalions" do seem unsavoury. Regardless, I can look for the KP article. ] — ] 00:26, 26 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::The main problem with the report is that it was filed in early June. Chater doesn't mention any numbers of recruits, and his footage shows literally a handful being trained in a very, very large training area. In and of itself, it doesn't attest to anything more than a minuscule presence. I'm going to do a search for updated information which might indicate whether a significant number have gone through training and are actually fighting in situ. —] (]) 00:39, 26 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::{{Ping|Iryna Harpy}} There is , from yesterday. Not sure if it can be verified, though. I generally consider AJ to be reliable. ] — ] 00:50, 26 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::::AJ has become a primary source for Australian international reportage. Even the most conservative of the commercial channels use their reports, as do printed and other outlets. I doubt that it could be seriously contested as an RS, particularly given that this is not reportage on the Middle East. —] (]) 00:57, 26 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::I'd say it is worthy of a mention, under the "pro-government paramilitaries" section. I'd oppose any changes to the infobox, though, as then numbers seem quite small. ] — ] 01:00, 26 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::I agree with that take on the subject. --] (]) 01:28, 26 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::Sure thing. Since more than half of that section is now about foreign volunteers, I've renamed it to "Pro-government paramilitaries and foreign volunteers". I've also moved the previous "foreign groups" tree to become a sub-tree of "Domestic insurgents", since all of the groups listed there are on the pro-Russian insurgent side (). ] (]) 15:46, 27 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::Great idea: I don't know why the "subsumed" thing was totally removed from the article, as if nothing of particular importance happened in 2022. And as for the conflict subsumption: the recent examples include the various ethnic conflicts in Myanmar (Karen , Kachin etc) being subsumed by a all-country Civil war with a new major and largely non-ethnic actor People's Defence Forces. Similar thing happened to ethnic conflicts in Sudan with the inception of 2023 Civil war. These conflicts didn't end, but their context changed markedly. ] (]) 12:32, 1 October 2024 (UTC) |
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== I'm not sure why the pro Russia camp is called insurgents? == |
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:::I've changed it again to keep the end date but include the explanatory note that the term "War in Donbas" generally only covers events up to the start of the invasion. I've also removed "Major combat operations phase ended", as this seems redundant now. </]> <] /><] /> 13:04, 25 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== Borodai in the lede == |
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As far as I can see, there are two camps, the pro Russia camp and the pro EU camp. In my opinion, no one side should be called insurgents.-- ] 00:02, 21 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::"An insurgency is an armed rebellion against a constituted authority". The insurgents are rebelling against the Ukrainian government with armed force. That makes them insurgents. ] — ] 00:33, 21 July 2014 (UTC) |
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And what makes the Ukrainian government the authority? As far as I can tell, Viktor Yanukovych is the legal president of Ukraine, because 1. he has not died 2. he has not resigned 3 he has not being impeached under the Ukrainian Constitution.-- ] 00:44, 21 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::The definition I quoted said nothing about "legal authority". It said "constituted authority". ] — ] 00:48, 21 July 2014 (UTC) |
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Novorossiya is also authority, is it not? -- ] 00:58, 21 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::::Not according to the international community's definition of authority, otherwise they would've been recognised. ] — ] 01:02, 21 July 2014 (UTC) |
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I'm not sure his words about 50k Russian citizens are lede-worthy. Borodai, as a direct participant, is essentially a primary source and Euromaidan simply repeats his assertions without any analysis. |
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Recognized by whom exactly? One should realize the UN hardly has any power these days.-- ] 13:02, 21 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*States at large, as per the large body of international law? ] — ] 15:05, 21 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:I also think that "insurgents" is not a good word. Probably there are some insurgents mixed in this. But more importantly the majority appears to be some mercenaries (someone would call them wolunteers) from some other countries fighting something like a war. And one has to add that they maintain something behaving quite officially like a quasi-independent state. Generally one would be stricken how much appreciation the leader of separatists got from one Maleysian official receiving black boxes and speaking to the leader per excellency. And in this example it was in fact intarnational recognition. I know it was not an official recognition of them as a state. (] (]) 21:23, 26 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::Also the prime minister of Malaysia talk a lot with the leaders of separatists. Rebels also do have someone like a prime minister, Alexander Borodai. And even they are issuing not only propaganda, but also some documents. And that Maleysian official who recieved black boxes even signed them...] 12:33, 27 July 2014 (UTC) |
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The topic itself - how many Russian citizens participated in the war is important and I'm not against discussing it in the lede. However we should provide a summary of high-quality secondary sources. We have quite a few of them already. ]<sub>]</sub> 22:54, 19 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== New Article or section regarding Aviation incidents/shoot downs - accidentes needed. == |
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== Composed in large part of Russian citizens == |
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Besides the Ilushing and the MH17 lost over Donbass, its urgently needed an article about all the aviation incidents in this war, including all those MI shoot down and all those claims made by the rebels, of Su-25 and Antonov cargo planes. More shot donws are reported weekly(2 SU-25 today), and since the battle box now excludes tha number of aircraft destroyed, a table its needed.] (]) 13:16, 23 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::Please see ]. ] — ] 15:39, 23 July 2014 (UTC) |
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@], @], regarding source request , this p. 154 says ''In reality, the conflict was fought between, on one side, Ukrainian-speaking and Russian-speaking ethnic Ukrainian and ethnic Russian Ukrainians having national allegiance to Ukraine against, on the opposing side, a minority of Ukrainians with massive Kremlin support having primary allegiance to Russia (Kuzio, 2020, pp. 106–133)''. |
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==DNR claim of the real number of Ukraine army deaths== |
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Seems like the DNR, through its Twitter account, a supposed internal document from the Ukrainian Security Service from July 19, which claims that the real losses on the Ukrainian side are 1600 KIA and 4723 WIA. I found an English translation . Lots of people are being quite skeptical about it, even on their side. This is obviously not something that would be a verified source by Misplaced Pages's standards. However, what ''is'' verified and perhaps notable is that the official DNR press agency is making this claim. Should it therefore be mentioned? ] (]) 18:31, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::Neither Twitter posts nor blog posts are reliable sources. It would need to be found in secondary reliable sources, such as a newspaper or whatever. ] — ] 18:37, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::Of course it's not a verifiable source. However, if dnrpress is the official Twitter account for the DNR, then we can verifiably say that this is an official DNR claim, without judging on the veracity of the actual claim. Although... hmm. Perhaps ] applies here. ] (]) 18:49, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::::It is possible that this is "self-serving", and also, it is a claim about a "third party", meaning that ] doesn't apply. I'd prefer if one could find a secondary source, even if it is an obviously biased one. ] — ] 18:54, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::I meant that ] applies in the sense that it couldn't be mentioned because of the reasons you stated. If you're talking about obviously biased secondary sources, though, would count? ] (]) 19:12, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*I don't know. I have to say that I find that pretty questionable. I'd wait and see what others say. ] — ] 19:16, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:Something just crossed my mind. Has it actually been confirmed anywhere that https://twitter.com/dnrpress/ is officially affiliated with the Donetsk Republic? I'd like to clear up the actual status of that account, if possible, and who's responsible for it. ] (]) 22:08, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:: claims that dnrpress is the "official Twitter account" of the Donetsk People's Republic". So does . Since both pro-NATO and pro-Russia news sources seem to say that it ''is'' official, would it make sense to treat all statements made on that account as being official statements of the Donetsk Republic? ] (]) 16:01, 27 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::If the claims are notable, then they will be mentioned by reliable sources such as non-Russian newspapers. That would provide a reliable source for the terrorists making the claims. If non-Russian newspapers ignore the claims, then the claims cannot be notable, so there is no justification for mentioning them on Misplaced Pages.--] (]) 16:24, 27 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::::Toddy1 makes two very interesting points. |
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::::1. Only non-Russian newspapers can be reliable sources. |
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::::2. Notability can be determined only by non-Russian sources. |
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::::Are those views supported by the majority of editors here? ] (]) 16:42, 27 July 2014 (UTC) |
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*If they don't appear in non-Russian sources, we have to take them with a grain of salt. If they had credibility, secondary sources from outside Russia would pick them up. It isn't really that hard to figure out, given the information war that is now occurring. ] — ] 16:46, 27 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::Alright. Does that also apply if they only appear in Ukrainian sources? ] (]) 16:53, 27 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:::Most Ukrainian newspapers are just as reliable for news events in Ukraine as most English ones are for news events in England.--] (]) 17:01, 27 July 2014 (UTC) |
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::::The English press has been shown to be consistently biased when issues of territorial integrity are at stake: . As would any country's, probably. ] (]) 17:22, 27 July 2014 (UTC) |
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p. 119 '' It cannot be true, as Sakwa (2017a) writes, that Russia sought to extricate itself from the Donbas at the same time as it built up a huge army and military arsenal controlled by GRU (Russian military intelligence) officers and 5,000 Russian occupation troops based in the DNR and LNR. '' ] (]) 01:33, 21 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== ukraine tropps shelled == |
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:The article now makes a very specific claim, that the forces that seized government buildings {{tquote|composed in large part of Russian citizens crossing the border into Ukraine}}. I wouldn't be too surprised if it were true, but the sources you've brought up here make ''different'' claims. They talk about the conflict in general rather than about the initial unrest. They also don't say anything about the Russian citizens being ''a large part'' of the separatist forces, whether in the beginning or subsequently. ]<sub>]</sub> 20:13, 22 December 2024 (UTC) |
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Perhaps a draft could be made about the russian troops allegedly shelling ukrainian troops? As long as it wouldn't be considered a fork or has nobility, and it has coverage, could it be possible?--] (]) 10:42, 26 July 2014 (UTC) |
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== Rostov-on-Don as a staging area == |
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== References to TASS == |
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This article has several references to ], also cited as “Information Telegraph Agency of Russia,” a biased source that’s unacceptable. TASS may be acceptable for direct quotations of the Kremlin, but not about any facts or events in Ukraine, including statements by Russian militants with whom the Kremlin obscured its true relationship. These should be tagged as unreliable, removed, and replaced with reliable sources. ] (]) 17:17, 4 January 2025 (UTC) |
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It seems to me that this is hard to dispute, meaning it could just be stated instead of attributed. In this there is a large amount of Russian kit that is traveling northbound towards Rostov-on-Don, given the sign that goes by for Vodyanaya Balka, which is about 60 km south of Rostov-on-Don, followed by a mileage sign to Rostov and Moscow.--] (]) 23:05, 26 July 2014 (UTC) |
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:Specific phrases please? ] (]) 17:23, 4 January 2025 (UTC) |
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::]? Youtube videos are not reliable sources. Regardless, we have a section on this matter already. It is ]. ] — ] 23:09, 26 July 2014 (UTC) |
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What's the precedent for a war being subsumed by another war? When there's a battle, there's start and end dates, and you can implicitly tell its part of a larger war, but titling an article "War in <location>" and having an end date in that infobox seems to suggest the "war" ended, when it didn't actually end, that phase of the war was eclipsed by the much larger invasion. Also, I don't think the "Major combat operations phase ended on 20 February 2015" is very relevant, there was sporadic levels of fighting all throughout 2014-2022. MarkiPoli (talk) 19:25, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
I'm not sure his words about 50k Russian citizens are lede-worthy. Borodai, as a direct participant, is essentially a primary source and Euromaidan simply repeats his assertions without any analysis.
The topic itself - how many Russian citizens participated in the war is important and I'm not against discussing it in the lede. However we should provide a summary of high-quality secondary sources. We have quite a few of them already. Alaexis¿question? 22:54, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
Referencing and citation: criterion met
