Revision as of 20:33, 20 August 2014 editJytdog (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers187,951 edits →Perceptions: add time stamp← Previous edit |
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{{Old AfD multi|page=Organic food|date=30 November 2012|result='''speedy keep'''}} |
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== Certified Organic Catagories == |
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Maybe this should go under first topic: Definition. |
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There are four different levels or categories for organic labeling. |
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1)‘100%’ Organic: This means that all ingredients are produced organically. It also may have the USDA seal. |
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2)‘Organic’: At least 95% or more of the ingredients are organic. |
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3)’Made With Organic Ingredients': Contains at least 70% organic ingredients. |
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4)‘Less Than 70. Organic Ingredients’: Three of the organic ingredients must be listed under the ingredient section of the label. |
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<ref></ref>“USDA organic: what qualifies as organic?" Massage Therapy Journal Spring 2011: 36+. Academic OneFile. Web. 3 Mar. 2014. |
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] (]) 16:08, 12 April 2014 (UTC) |
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:Two objectsions. 1. the USA has 300 million people, it's undue to give them more weight. 2. Your source is crap, ] (]) 10:11, 9 August 2014 (UTC) |
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== changes made in mid-July == |
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in , {{u|Jmh649 |Doc James}} made a series of edits that I mostly reverted today. Two main issues: |
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# It is ''not true'' that in the scientific literature, differences between organic and conventional produce are controversial. Every serious review, including the most recent one, acknowledges that it is very hard to draw generalizations from the data at hand, due to variability in the actual things being tested (due to a) differences in how they are grown (soil, fertilizer, weather, seed, in any given region in any given year); b) differences in what transpires between harvest and testing (how far do they travel, what is done to them in the meantime), and c) what is actually tested for. Furthermore, everybody agrees that it is nigh onto impossible to draw '''conclusions about health effects''' between eating conventional and organic, due to the difficulty and expense of designing and running a meaningful clinical trial. So - nothing is contoversial from within science. |
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# I object to the 2014 meta analysis being added to the lead. It found differences in cadmium and antioxidants, but again, '''it drew no conclusions about health effects'''. Different studies are going to find different things - this nutrient or that anti-nutrient are going to be higher or lower in this or that study. The key thing, and I again emphasize this - no study, not even the 2014, draws conclusions that organic food is healthier. |
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It is totally fine to cite and use the 2014 meta-analysis (of course!) but I fail to see why it belongs in the lead or causes any dramatic changes to this article.] (]) 14:42, 16 August 2014 (UTC) |
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:It should be in the lead. It's the most definitive meta-analysis to date. There is no rule that says only health effects can be covered in the lead. It's a fact that organic food has less pesticide residue, higher anti-oxidants, and less cadmium. Fine if it's not claimed that these are health effects, but odd to completely omit. ] (]) 09:27, 17 August 2014 (UTC) |
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::One problem here is that none of the variables mentioned here have been unambiguously tied to health. Antioxidants have variously been found to increase or decrease the risk of cancer/mortality, or to have no effect for example , , and .] (]) 11:40, 17 August 2014 (UTC) |
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== Bio and eco == |
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::{{u|TimidGuy}} we don't discuss details of any of the recent reviews in the lead, nor should we (in my opinion... I don't know how we would summarize that mass of data, but i am open to suggestions). And if we are going to, it seems to me that we would have to provide detail about how they are '''not''' different as well, and deal with very recent reviews that found different things. You have provided no reason under ] nor ] to justify describing '''just the two positive findings for organic food''' from the 2014 meta review in the lead. Please do so. Also the lead does mention differences in chemical composition... Thanks! ] (]) 14:31, 17 August 2014 (UTC) |
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What is actually the problem here with ecologic and biological food? Both terms redirect to this article and you can simply verify the interwiki's to see that they are nearly the only used terms in Europe. Only a few use organic, which does not simply translate to ecologic or biological. --] (]) 13:57, 7 April 2022 (UTC) |
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==Taste section== |
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== Confounding factors when comparing health effects == |
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The "Taste" section of the article ironically brings up the an issue related to the somewhat arbitrary line between organic and non-organic agriculture. While the paragraph refers to artificially ripening fruits with the "chemical" ethylene, ethylene is in fact a naturally produced hormone produced by most fruit bearing plants as part of their regulation of fruit ripening. We don't call vitamin C a chemical when it is extracted from citrus and compressed into a pill for human consumption at large multiples of any possible natural exposure, but concentrating the natural product ethylene and applying to to fruit at concentrations similar to those found in nature is "chemical"? It seems like the language of the paragraph needs to be modified, but I"m not sure how to do it without wandering into ]. ] (]) 11:57, 17 August 2014 (UTC) |
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:addressed that. thanks! ] (]) 20:13, 17 August 2014 (UTC) |
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The sentence I wrote "It has been demonstrated that income, educational level, BMI, physical activity, dietery habits and number of children are associated with the level of organic food consumption*. (citing Brantsæter et al 2017) was modified to "In Norway, alcohol intake and smoking, as well as exercise and low BMI, were associated with higher levels of organic food consumption." I stand by my first sentence. The relevant section in Brantsæter et al contains the following sentence "Most studies report that organic consumption is closely linked to other health and lifestyle indicators, e.g., consumers often have higher education and income, have lower body-mass index (BMI), are more physically active, and have healthier diets than those who do not or seldom use organic food". They cite 5 publications. A similar list of factors appears in the following two reviews, which also cite the original papers. |
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== article structure == |
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A Systematic Review of Organic Versus Conventional Food Consumption: Is There a Measurable Benefit on Human Health? Vanessa Vigar, Stephen Myers, Christopher Oliver , Jacinta Arellano , Shelley Robinson and Carlo Leifert. Nutrients 2020, 12(1), 7; https://doi.org/10.3390/nu12010007 |
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In the course of the discussion about how to handle the 2014 meta review, I just want to let new folks here know that the current structure of the article was the result of a looooong negotiation. (much of it is ] but it is in other archives as well.) The crux of the conflict, was the conflation of two separate questions -- 1) is organically produced food chemically different from conventionally produced food in any generalizable way, and 2) to the extent those differences exist, do they ''matter'' for health? By separating those two topics carefully, we were able to settle the article content to the satisfaction-enough of all the parties involved at that time, which was a happy thing. If we want to revisit that consensus, let's do that consciously and carefully. Anyway, to maintain that, I moved content introduced by {{u|Formerly 98}} in , down into the health section. ] (]) 14:24, 17 August 2014 (UTC) |
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:::No worries, sorry to intrude. ] (]) 15:51, 17 August 2014 (UTC) |
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::::the content was great, thank you! just thought i should let everybody know about the structure thing - your edit just prompted it. ] (]) 16:25, 17 August 2014 (UTC) |
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Azizur Rahman, Parnian Baharlouei, Eleanor Hui Yan Koh, Diana Gabby Pirvu, Rameesha Rehmani, Mateo Arcos, Simron Puri. A Comprehensive Analysis of Organic Food: Evaluating Nutritional Value and Impact on Human Health. Foods 2024, 13 (2) , 208. https://doi.org/10.3390/foods13020208 |
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== Perceptions == |
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Perhaps it is only my experience and observation, but I would have thought that these correlations would be not at all controversial, and would be what we all would have judged to be the case if we were to guess. Therefore unless anyone has a serious objection, I will reinstate the first sentence. |
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I had my edits to perceptions reversed apparently due to the claim it is original research. Actually the paragraph contains much original research and doesn't address where the perceptions came from at all.I was fixing that. To accuse me of original research when I claim that the source of the perception of organic food being healthier comes from The likes of Sir Albert Howard, Lady Eve Balfore and Rodale press etc.. is ridiculous actually. They are the principle reason we even have an organic movement. But if you want more. Why not read this:http://books.google.com/books?id=Qh7dkdVsbDkC&pg=PA145&lpg=PA145&dq=sir+Albert+Howard+Knighted&source=bl&ots=w9euvIx-85&sig=XHLtq-Ql7sz506GMlnzCf8Z2On8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Wfv0U6GfBOGejAL24YHQBg&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=sir%20Albert%20Howard%20Knighted&f=false "] (]) 19:59, 20 August 2014 (UTC) |
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:actually just the first sentence was unsourced. everything else is sourced. Thanks for pointing that out. Very grateful you are working to expand the article - please just follow ]. Thanks! ] (]) 20:03, 20 August 2014 (UTC) |
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::To explain, what needs sourcing is the claim that " This perception originated in the early days of the organic movement as a result of publications like ], Gardening and Farming for Health or Disease, and later ] and periodicals like ] and ]." How do I ] that it is true that the perception originated from those publications? That is what you need a source for. Without a source, the content is indeed ]. Thanks.] (]) 20:10, 20 August 2014 (UTC) |
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:::<cynical>And I guess that source must be ] approved?</cynical> <span style="border:1px solid green; padding:0 2px">] ]</span> 20:26, 20 August 2014 (UTC) |
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] (]) 15:23, 19 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Redbaron, really, I am glad you are improving the article. The section is ''public perception''. lan's book makes it clear that "the living soil" Blafore, etc are important for ''organic movement "geeks"'', as it were but are not what made organic Important to the Public. Pollan talks about the Alar scare, about silent spring, and other stuff. Not Howard/Balfore/Rodale. Do you see what I mean? ] (]) 20:32, 20 August 2014 (UTC) |
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:I think the issue is that the source continues with a massive caveat after where you stop: |
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:::::and Banner, don't be a dick. You already made a pointy revert. ] (]) 20:32, 20 August 2014 (UTC) |
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:{{talkquote|However, this pattern does not necessarily apply when organic food consumption is related to an alternative lifestyle that includes vegetarianism, environmentalism, or other ideologies.}} |
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:and is preceded by a more general qualifier: |
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:{{talkquote|Research describing lifestyle and socioeconomic characteristics of organic food consumers has shown that organic consumption is a complex phenomenon involving diverse groups that do not fit into typically defined consumer segments.}} |
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:At least the Norway stuff seems straightforward. Taking the source's qualifications into account, and its cautious wording ("Most studies report that ..."), and having Misplaced Pages say in wikivoice "It has been demonstrated that ..." imperils our need for ]. ] (]) 15:38, 19 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::That vegetarians etc buck the trend makes sense. If this is a conviction rather than a lifestyle choice, i.e. wanting to reduce your footprint rather than wanting the best for yourself and your family, then even poor vegetarians are prepared to pay the up-price. Should we mention the exceptions? I don't have a strong opinion on this, but feel the general trends are enough. I agree with changing the wording to the more cautious "Most studies report ....". ] (]) 17:33, 19 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:::The problem with only mentioning smoking is that so few people now smoke in the western world, that although it doubtlessly correlates strongly, it is not very relevant. Income and fitness have a huge correlation with public health. which is why I am keen to see them listed. There are dozens and probably hundreds of publications analysing the nature of purchasers of organic food, mainly from a marketing perspective, most citing factors from numerous previous publications.. Unfortunately I could find no review focusing on this aspect, so below I am listing all the reviews on the correlation of organic food consumption with health. They describe the confounding factors in greater or lesser detail. I have copied the relevant text from each and pasted it just below the reference in italics. This is long so when the matter is settled please can an administrator delete it. If this is not deemed adequate to justify my original list I will go back to the dozens of primary sources to get more solid data. |
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:::On reconsidering perhaps it is good to mention the idealists. A vegetarian who denies his or herself something enjoyable to help save the planet should be honoured. |
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:::A Systematic Review of Organic Versus Conventional Food Consumption: Is There a Measurable Benefit on Human Health? Vanessa Vigar, Stephen Myers, Christopher Oliver , Jacinta Arellano , Shelley Robinson and Carlo Leifert. Nutrients 2020, 12(1), 7; https://doi.org/10.3390/nu12010007 |
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:::''Regular consumers of organic food are most likely to be female, health-conscious, physically active, and in the higher brackets of education and income than their non-organic consuming counterparts . They are also more likely to have a higher ratio of plant to animal foods, with a strong relationship between vegetarian/vegan consumers and organic consumption . This consumer group generally has an increased wholefood dietary intake, as a result of both the general ethos of organic consumers (i.e., preference over processed/ultra-processed foods), and restricted use of additives in organic processed foods. Diet composition between organic and non-organic consumers may, therefore, be quite different''. |
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:::Dangour, A.D.; Lock, K.; Hayter, A.; Aikenhead, A.; Allen, E.; Uauy, R. Nutrition-related health effects of organic foods: A systematic review. Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 2010, 92, 203–210 https://doi.org/10.3945/ajcn.2010.29269 |
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:::''no confounding factors mentioned''. |
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:::Jiang, B.; Pang, J.; Li, J.; Mi, L.; Ru, D.; Feng, J.; Li, X.; Zhao, A.; Cai, L. The effects of organic food on human health: a systematic review and meta-analysis of population-based studies. Nutrition Reviews 2023, nuad124. https://doi.org/10.1093/nutrit/nuad124 |
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:::''Organic food consumers tend to be younger and thinner, with diets of higher nutritional quality, and they tend to be followers of a healthy lifestyle''. (1 citation) |
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:::Azizur Rahman, Parnian Baharlouei, Eleanor Hui Yan Koh, Diana Gabby Pirvu, Rameesha Rehmani, Mateo Arcos, Simron Puri. A Comprehensive Analysis of Organic Food: Evaluating Nutritional Value and Impact on Human Health. Foods 2024, 13 (2) , 208. https://doi.org/10.3390/foods13020208 |
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:::''Considering affordability and perceived value majorly influence purchasing decisions, higher income levels often correlate with an increased likelihood of purchasing organic foods . In addition, higher levels of education are associated with greater awareness of health and environmental concerns related to food choices . Educated consumers may be more informed about the benefits of organic farming practices and choose organic products accordingly. A recent study investigating the organic purchasing intentions of Bangladeshi consumers uncovered a significant positive correlation between the level of education and the intention to purchase sustainable organic food. Specifically, the study found a 3.27-fold increase in organic food purchasing among consumers with higher levels of education . Other socio-economic factors that may influence organic purchasing decisions include age and gender, cultural dietary habits and health and wellness trends in the market .'' (9 citations) |
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:::The again later in the same publication |
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:::''Many of these experiments are short term and may be confounded by variations in dietary patterns and lifestyles that profoundly affect human health . Notably, observational studies often lack a comprehensive examination of the various health factors that may differ between organic and non-organic food consumers, such as lifestyle choices, physical activity levels and overall dietary patterns . These factors may be a source of confounding that significantly influence the health outcomes observed, precipitating the need for further longitudinal intervention studies. Nevertheless, the compounds found in organic fruits and vegetables are generally believed to promote human health and longevity . Consequently, individuals who consistently consume organic food often opt for more fruits and vegetables and less meat, potentially reducing the risk of mortality and chronic diseases . Additionally, research indicates that those who regularly choose organic food are more likely to be female, have higher education and income levels and maintain a healthier lifestyle by smoking less and engaging in more physical activity '' (4 citations) |
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:::Mie, A.; Andersen, H.R.; Gunnarsson, S.; Kahl, J.; Kesse-Guyot, E.; Rembiałkowska, E.; Quaglio, G.; Grandjean, P. Human Health Implications of Organic Food and Organic Agriculture: A Comprehensive Review. Environ. Health 2017, 16, 111. https://doi.org/10.1186/s12940-017-0315-4 |
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:::''In observational studies, a specific challenge is the fact that consumers who regularly buy organic food tend to choose more vegetables, fruit, wholegrain products and less meat, and tend to have overall healthier dietary patterns . Each of these dietary characteristics is associated with a decreased risk for mortality from or incidence of certain chronic diseases . Consumers who regularly buy organic food are also more physically active and less likely to smoke .'' (4 citations) |
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:::Anne Lise Brantsæter, Trond A. Ydersbond, Jane A. Hoppin, Margaretha Haugen, Helle Margrete Meltzer. Organic Food in the Diet: Exposure and Health Implications. Annual Review of Public Health 2017, 38 (1) , 295-313. https://doi.org/10.1146/annurev-publhealth-031816-044437 |
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:::''Already discussed above'' |
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:::Marcin Barański, Leonidas Rempelos, Per Ole Iversen, Carlo Leifert. Effects of organic food consumption on human health; the jury is still out!. Food & Nutrition Research '''2017''', 61 (1) , 1287333. https://doi.org/10.1080/16546628.2017.1287333 . |
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:::''However, there are a range of confounding factors that may have influenced the outcome of all cohort studies since organic and conventional consumers are known to differ in a range of other lifestyle factors (e.g. diet composition, use of medicines, health supplements and vaccinations, and/or levels of exercise, alcohol consumption, and smoking) which are often difficult to properly factor out in cohort studies .'' (3 citations) |
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:::Bhagavathula, A.S.; Vidyasagar, K.; Khubchandani, J. Organic Food Consumption and Risk of Obesity: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis. Healthcare 2022, 10, 231. https://doi.org/10.3390/healthcare10020231. |
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:::''Finally, it could also be possible that consumers of organic foods could be more health-conscious or have more favorable social determinants of health'' . (4 citations) |
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:::''In addition, a recent Danish study observed that people with generally healthy lifestyles, physical activities, and dietary habits were more likely to eat organic food'' . (1 citation) |
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:::''Third, we cannot omit the residual confounding due to the specific profile of high organic food consumers. Fourth, organic food is generally more expensive (specifically in western countries) and it can be reasonably assumed that organic food is mostly consumed by individuals with higher socioeconomic status (SES). These individuals and population groups also have a lower prevalence of obesity; such confounding due to SES factors could limit the validity of our results as there were not enough details across all studies on SES of individuals included for this review.'' (no citations – only supposition) ] (]) 16:06, 21 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::::I believe in Norway > 30% of adults smoke. I think the overall point of the review is that globally everything just too complex to make an overall statement. Anyway, I'm not sure the article should overly dwell on these 'characteristics' of organic food buyers, as this is an article about food, not consumers. The important thing to relay is how there's consensus there are no health benefits from organic food. ] (]) 16:15, 21 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::There are a lot of smokers in Norway!! Yes - things are impossible to deconvolute. I agree the section on "public perception" is too long and could happily be replaced by a couple of sentences with lists of the characteristics of buyers, and a list of their drivers (motivations), although it might vary from country to county. By the way the authors of the review are Norwegian, but the studies they cite are British, French, German and Norwegian, although I haven't read them. However I have spent many hours on this matter, even though as you correctly write it is not the most important thing in the world. But I have sunk my teeth into it to a certain extent. I would like to see income on the list, but am more than happy for a second opinion as to the validity of such a claim. I don't feel the original list would overburden the section. ] (]) 18:40, 21 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::Finally I found a review of the "who" as well as the "why". Kramer reviews five high-quality, population-based surveys of who buys organic food. In different countries they "paint a fairly clear portrait". So I will insert the list again with more careful wording "Several high quality surveys find that income, educational level, BMI, physical activity, dietery habits and number of children are associated with the level of organic food consumption." I will add Kramer's review in addition to the Brantsæter review These are marketing studies, and unrelated to the medicinal aspects, and really should not be controversial. However if this is still not OK, than I am happy to have another go. ] (]) 15:42, 24 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::Looks like a reasonable source but I am having trouble ]erifying the text you added. What is it in the source, for example, that supports assertions about the relationship between BMI and organic food? ] (]) 16:37, 24 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::BMI came from the Brantsæter review, but as Kramer writes, "Only the associations with overweight and obesity were adjusted for confounding due to other participant characteristics". The relation with BMI and physical acitivity is clearly tight, so let us delete BMI from the list. Sewn twice as they say in Switzerland. I'll delete it. ] (]) 10:06, 25 January 2024 (UTC) |
What is actually the problem here with ecologic and biological food? Both terms redirect to this article and you can simply verify the interwiki's to see that they are nearly the only used terms in Europe. Only a few use organic, which does not simply translate to ecologic or biological. --Wickey (talk) 13:57, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
The sentence I wrote "It has been demonstrated that income, educational level, BMI, physical activity, dietery habits and number of children are associated with the level of organic food consumption*. (citing Brantsæter et al 2017) was modified to "In Norway, alcohol intake and smoking, as well as exercise and low BMI, were associated with higher levels of organic food consumption." I stand by my first sentence. The relevant section in Brantsæter et al contains the following sentence "Most studies report that organic consumption is closely linked to other health and lifestyle indicators, e.g., consumers often have higher education and income, have lower body-mass index (BMI), are more physically active, and have healthier diets than those who do not or seldom use organic food". They cite 5 publications. A similar list of factors appears in the following two reviews, which also cite the original papers.
A Systematic Review of Organic Versus Conventional Food Consumption: Is There a Measurable Benefit on Human Health? Vanessa Vigar, Stephen Myers, Christopher Oliver , Jacinta Arellano , Shelley Robinson and Carlo Leifert. Nutrients 2020, 12(1), 7; https://doi.org/10.3390/nu12010007
Azizur Rahman, Parnian Baharlouei, Eleanor Hui Yan Koh, Diana Gabby Pirvu, Rameesha Rehmani, Mateo Arcos, Simron Puri. A Comprehensive Analysis of Organic Food: Evaluating Nutritional Value and Impact on Human Health. Foods 2024, 13 (2) , 208. https://doi.org/10.3390/foods13020208
Perhaps it is only my experience and observation, but I would have thought that these correlations would be not at all controversial, and would be what we all would have judged to be the case if we were to guess. Therefore unless anyone has a serious objection, I will reinstate the first sentence.