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{{WikiProject Politics of India}}I removed the following from the article because it seems very POV to me:
{{controversial}}
:Shiv Sena members have supported the massacre of Christians, Jews, Muslims, homosexuals, moderate Hindus, and ]
{{Indian English}}
It was by ], who has a history of POV disputes. --] ] 00:16, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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== Libel and Slander==
{{WikiProject Conservatism|importance=}}
Libel and slander against a vital political party in India gets editors banned here. I have removed all the nonsense in the article. It was highly pejorative of Marathas and can be construed as racist and ethnocentric. Please refrain from using wikipedia as a sandbox for expressing anti-maratha and anti-Hindu hatred. Calling them 'terrorists' and such is uncalled for, since no indictments or formal charges have been made against them. Violence against Jews? Was that for effect of false accusations of anti-semitism? Please, Shiv Sena is an open supporter of Israel and Thackeray an avid admirer of Zionism. Again, baseless accusations without proof from a nutjob leftist with a typical low-class education.(] 14:10, 10 July 2006 (UTC))
{{WikiProject India|importance=mid|politics=yes|politics-importance=high|maharashtra=yes|maharashtra-importance=high|image-needed=yes|mumbai=yes|mumbai-importance=low}}
{{WikiProject Politics |importance=mid| political-parties=yes| political-parties-importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject Discrimination |class=B |importance=High}}
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== Name of the party ==
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== Feedback from New Page Review process ==
I know that the name originally refers to Chhatrapati ], but from what I've understood is that SS has started implying that their name refers to the deity ] when they've started to start branches in other Indian states. --] 18:34, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)


I left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: this probably needs to be a disambiguation page now
== Criminal Activites and Accusations ==


-] (]) 07:38, 11 November 2024 (UTC)


== Requested move 11 November 2024 ==
<div class="boilerplate mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: var(--background-color-success-subtle, #efe); color: var(--color-base, inherit); margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted var(--border-color-subtle, #AAAAAA);"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color: var(--color-error, red);">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''


The result of the move request was: '''page moved'''. ] (]) 06:25, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
Shiv Sena is an Indian political party operating in a democratic country where the media and judiciary are vibrant. Accusations put up by a French source should not be featured in the main article let alone a reference link put up. If what has been said is true then the SS party leader would have been behind bars. This is as far away from a NPOV that we can get.
----
The slant of the article is completely negative to the said political party and hence cannot be said to be NPOV. For instance, the article needs balance and does not present the Shiv Sena thinking behind any of its actions.


] → {{no redirect|Shiv Sena}} – Need discussion for undiscussed move to this current title ]. This article may be the primary topic for the name "Shiv Sena", even if the party has been split into two. ] (]) 21:43, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
== Soman's edits ==
:<small>Note: ] has been notified of this discussion. ] (]) 18:23, 12 November 2024 (UTC)</small>
:<small>Note: ] has been notified of this discussion. ] (]) 18:30, 12 November 2024 (UTC)</small>
*'''Support''' It was recently moved and was an undiscussed controversial page move. Anyone who says "Shiv Sena" is obviously referring to pre-split. - ] (]) 05:21, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per ]. ] (]) 12:43, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Comment''': See https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User:Andrewa/sandbox&oldid=1258715699 for the rather messy history. ] (]) 06:16, 21 November 2024 (UTC)


<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: var(--color-error, red);">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from ] -->
The user Soman is hell bent on adding what is written in LMD. Mere accusations should not be taken as proof. The SS chief is routinely accused of such activities but then so are ALL the politicians in India. I suggest you remove POV even if it is LMD's pov and not your own. and please discuss before writing such imp things in the article
</div><div style="clear:both;" class=></div>


:{{ping|Ratnahastin}} Request to keep discussions open at-least for a week and provide references and citations before making major moves. Please re-open to the discussion. Thank you. --] (]) 22:13, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
:??? But they are not presented as proofs, are they? What is presented is criticism, and the source of criticism is clearly provided. If you can provide text material that provides another viewpoint, it can also be referred to. However, there is a differntiation betwen if an opinion is published in a major reputed international journal or on an individual fringy blog somewhere.
::Kindly check https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Shiv_Sena#Clarification_on_Shiv_Sena_dispute for additional context. --] (]) 00:00, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
:Also, when Thackerey brought Arun Gawli to the dais of their rallies, how do you from your personal pov analyze that? I have little faith in Indian politicians in general, but Thackerey's record cannot just be whitewashed with reference to the general political culture. --], the left-centric hell-bender 12:03, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
:I cannot re-open a discussion closed by an admin, you can trying asking them. - ] (]) 01:41, 24 November 2024 (UTC)


==About Shiv Sena being defunct==
Very nice soman but its better if you ref the LMD article as an external link, LMD or Times doesnt constitute fact, in a section titled criminal activities you mention facts and convictions not opinions however "reputed" the journal. You can simply state Arun gawli was present on the stage with him in a rally and give the reference where it is stated, but you can blindly say the things you have said, it has been said that CPI(m) was involved in the kerala sex-scandal cover-up, and in a journal too but I dont see you adding that to the wiki as a fact......
In 2022, the Election Commission of India (ECI) recognized Eknath Shinde as the leader of the original Shiv Sena, granting his faction the party's name and the "bow and arrow" symbol. Consequently, no new party was created for Eknath Shinde; he inherited the existing Shiv Sena.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Sharma |first=Padmakshi |date=2023-02-17 |title=Shiv Sena Rift : Why Election Commission Allowed Eknath Shinde To Retain Official Name & Symbol? Read Reasons |url=https://www.livelaw.in/top-stories/shiv-sena-rift-election-commission-allowed-eknath-shinde-retain-official-name-symbol-uddhav-thackeray-221863 |access-date=2024-11-23 |website=www.livelaw.in |language=en}}</ref> Meanwhile, Uddhav Thackeray's faction was assigned a new name, 'Shiv Sena (Uddhav Balasaheb Thackeray),' and a new symbol, the 'flaming torch' (mashaal). Therefore, it's appropriate to include the developments from 2022 onwards as a subsection within the existing Shiv Sena article, rather than creating a separate section. --] (]) 21:57, 23 November 2024 (UTC)


==Clarification on Shiv Sena dispute==
I understand your point, LMD ref can stay there ,but 'Committee for the Protection of Democratic Rights' ??? how fringe is that, thats pure POV and you cannot deny that. The other refs were also vague it was said in 1998 by whom where, and what article were you ref to?
Think carefully, dont push an agenda.


It might be confusing for average readers and editors regarding the recent developments in the Shiv Sena party. To clarify the situation, I am sharing some key facts along with reliable references and citations to help others understand the main issue.
-The commie-pseudo-intellect seeker


===Split===
:First of all: Sign your posts. Secondly: I think that accusations, if properly referenced may be included in wikiarticles. Of course a great deal of caution is to be applied in this. Accusations mentioned in articles has to be significant for the party as an organization (and not just of individual members) and the inside the article the accusations has to be balanced to the rest of the content. For example, it would be both irrelevant and practically impossible to list every single Congress politician ever accused of corruption. However, it would be bizarre to leave out the Bofors scandal when talking about Congress or Rajiv Gandhi.
The split in the Shiv Sena resulted in two factions:
:Now when it comes to SS it is highly relevant to mention the links to the underworld and the tendency of the party to engage in muscle-power politics. That doesn't make other politicians saints, but certainly Thackerey's leadership is markably different than that of mainstream politicians in India. SS once started its political activity by murders and fomenting communalism. Also concerning SS, its clear that criminal activities are not just coincidental or individual behaviour, its part and parcel of party strategy of constantly seeking confrontations. --] 07:33, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
#"Balasahebanchi Shiv Sena" led by Eknath Shinde (not to be confused with main Shiv Sena) and
# "Shiv Sena (Uddhav Balasaheb Thackeray)" or "Shiv Sena UBT" led by Uddhav Thackeray.
This division was '''temporary''' as the courts and the Election Commission of India (ECI) were determining who should inherit the original Shiv Sena. Ultimately, Eknath Shinde's faction, Balasahebanchi Shiv Sena, received control of the original party, thereby resolving the dispute. Following this, Shiv Sena (UBT) emerged as an independent party with its own symbol and identity, distinct from the original Shiv Sena, as they lost their legal battle in front of the ECI and the courts.


===Legal Resolution of Dispute===
Agreed you cant leave out imp details like bofors or muscle power, but be accurate and reliable, mention SS demanded south indians out of maharashtra, mention the board blackening incidents,even fire or valentine incidents are fine...but 'Committee for the Protection of Democratic Rights'' accusations are hardly npov, give ref to the Samana articles urging such articles but the things you mentioned were pure "mirch masala". I hope you understand what I am trying to say.... and what signature?
As it was not a traditional party split, '''legal dispute was resolved by the Election Commission of India''' (ECI):
#ECI granted Eknath Shinde's faction the original Shiv Sena name and "Bow and Arrow" symbol. <ref>{{Cite news |last=Bureau |first=The Hindu |date=2023-02-17 |title=Eknath Shinde faction gets Shiv Sena name, symbol |url=https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/eknath-shinde-faction-recognised-as-real-shiv-sena-allotted-bow-and-arrow-symbol/article66521586.ece |access-date=2024-11-23 |work=The Hindu |language=en-IN |issn=0971-751X}}</ref> This also meant temporary "Balasahebanchi Shiv Sena" arrangement was merged into original party.
#Uddhav Thackeray's group became a new party: "Shiv Sena (Uddhav Balasaheb Thackeray)" with "Flaming Torch" symbol.<ref>{{Cite web |title=Shiv Sena (UBT) Gets Modified 'Mashaal' Symbol Ahead Of Maharashtra Election |url=https://www.news18.com/elections/shiv-sena-uddhav-thackeray-gets-modified-mashaal-symbol-ahead-of-maharashtra-election-eknath-shinde-election-commission-latest-news-9091169.html |access-date=2024-11-23 |website=News18 |language=en}}</ref>


===Reasons for ECI Decision===
: While ome member of the shiv Sena can be a bit overzealous, why does this article focus exclusively on their flaws and none on their achievements as a legitimate political party. I'm sorry, but this article reeks of Islamist propaganda and anti-Hindu hatred. It still is POV.]
Shinde's faction had majority support in legislative wing (76% vs 23.5%).
{{Election box metadata}}
Decision based on Supreme Court precedents emphasizing majority principle.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Sharma |first=Padmakshi |date=2023-02-17 |title=Shiv Sena Rift : Why Election Commission Allowed Eknath Shinde To Retain Official Name & Symbol? Read Reasons |url=https://www.livelaw.in/top-stories/shiv-sena-rift-election-commission-allowed-eknath-shinde-retain-official-name-symbol-uddhav-thackeray-221863 |access-date=2024-11-23 |website=www.livelaw.in |language=en}}</ref>


===Key Points===
"The power of the Sena has come from its ability to create terror most of the times for the good and sometimes for the bad."
* Shinde retained original Shiv Sena identity and properties (i.e ]). No new party was created, he simply inherited old Shiv Sena.<ref>{{Cite web |date=2023-02-17 |title=Election Commission allots Shiv Sena name, bow and arrow symbol to Shinde faction |url=https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/shinde-sena-to-get-party-name-bow-and-arrow-symbol-says-election-commission-2336173-2023-02-17 |access-date=2024-11-23 |website=India Today |language=en}}</ref>
* Thackeray's faction is a new party, not a sub-party of Shiv Sena. i.e (])
* The dispute was resolved legally, not through a voluntary split.


===Timeline of Shiv Sena Dispute and Split===
This sentence sucks. Even more so since all the examples that follow it are of the "bad" nature.


{| class="wikitable"
...In fact that whole section sucks.
|+ Timeline of Events
|-
! Date !! Event !! Description !! References
|-
| June 21, 2022 || Eknath Shinde's Rebellion || Eknath Shinde, along with several MLAs, rebelled against Uddhav Thackeray, leading to a split within the Shiv Sena and the collapse of the Maha Vikas Aghadi (MVA) coalition. || <ref>{{cite web |title=Maharashtra Political Crisis: MVA slides into minority; here's how the numbers stand |url=https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/maharashtra-political-crisis-mva-slides-into-minority-heres-how-the-numbers-stand/article65548913.ece |website=The Hindu |date=2022-06-22 |access-date=2024-11-23}}</ref>
|-
| June 23, 2022 || Disqualification Notices || The Deputy Speaker of Maharashtra issued disqualification notices to 16 rebel MLAs from Shinde's faction. || <ref>{{cite web |title=Shiv Sena MLA Disqualification Case: An Analysis of Anti-Defection Law |url=https://pwonlyias.com/current-affairs/shiv-sena-mla-disqualification-case/ |website=PWOnlyIAS |date=2023-01-15 |access-date=2024-11-23}}</ref>
|-
| June 26, 2022 || Supreme Court Intervention || Shinde moved the Supreme Court against the disqualification notices. The court granted interim relief to the rebel MLAs. || <ref>{{cite web |title=Understanding the Shiv Sena Conflict |url=https://www.scobserver.in/journal/understanding-the-shiv-sena-conflict/ |website=Supreme Court Observer |date=2022-07-01 |access-date=2024-11-23}}</ref>
|-
| July 3, 2022 || New Speaker Recognition || Rahul Narwekar was elected as the new Speaker of the Maharashtra Assembly and recognized Shinde's faction as the legitimate Shiv Sena. || <ref>{{cite web |title=Shiv Sena split explained |url=https://www.deccanherald.com/india/maharashtra/sena-split-explained-ahead-of-the-maharashtra-speakers-verdict-here-is-all-that-has-happened-in-the-case-2842718 |website=Deccan Herald |date=2023-01-10 |access-date=2024-11-23}}</ref>
|-
| August 23, 2022 || Referral to Constitution Bench || The Supreme Court referred the disqualification cases related to both factions to a Constitution Bench for further deliberation. || <ref>{{cite web |title=Shiv Sena Case: Supreme Court Constitution Bench Reserves Judgment |url=https://www.livelaw.in/top-stories/shiv-sena-case-supreme-court-constitution-bench-reserves-judgment-uddhav-thackeray-eknath-shinde-maharashtra-223929 |website=LiveLaw |date=2023-03-16 |access-date=2024-11-23}}</ref>
|-
| February 17, 2023 || ECI Decision || The Election Commission of India granted Eknath Shinde's faction the name "Shiv Sena" and the "Bow and Arrow" symbol, recognizing it as the original party. Uddhav Thackeray's faction was named "Shiv Sena (Uddhav Balasaheb Thackeray)" with a new symbol, the "Flaming Torch." || <ref>{{cite web |title=Eknath Shinde faction wins Shiv Sena symbol war: A timeline of events |url=https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/shiv-sena-symbol-eknath-shinde-uddhav-thackeray-2336227-2023-02-17 |website=India Today |date=2023-02-17 |access-date=2024-11-23}}</ref>
|-
| March 16, 2023 || Supreme Court Hearing Completed || The Supreme Court completed hearings regarding disqualification matters but reserved its judgment for later. || <ref>{{cite web |title=Shiv Sena Case: Supreme Court Constitution Bench Reserves Judgment |url=https://www.livelaw.in/top-stories/shiv-sena-case-supreme-court-constitution-bench-reserves-judgment-uddhav-thackeray-eknath-shinde-maharashtra-223929 |website=LiveLaw |date=2023-03-16 |access-date=2024-11-23}}</ref>
|-
| May 11, 2023 || Supreme Court Ruling || The Supreme Court ruled that the government led by Eknath Shinde would continue as it could not reinstate Thackeray's government without a floor test. || <ref>{{cite web |title=Maharashtra Governor, Speakers' Actions Illegal But Can't Restore Uddhav Govt: Supreme Court |url=https://thewire.in/law/supreme-court-shiv-sena-uddhav-thackeray-eknath-shinde |website=The Wire |date=2023-05-11 |access-date=2024-11-23}}</ref>
|-
| October 30, 2023 || Deadline Set by Supreme Court || The Supreme Court set a deadline for the Maharashtra Speaker to decide on cross-petitions filed by both factions regarding disqualification. || <ref>{{cite web |title=Sena vs Sena: Speaker says Shinde Sena 'real party', dismisses all pleas for disqualification |url=https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/mumbai/maharashtra-speaker-verdict-shiv-sena-disqualification-rahul-narwekar-9103444/ |website=The Indian Express |date=2024-01-10 |access-date=2024-11-23}}</ref>
|-
| January 10, 2024 || Speaker's Declaration || Maharashtra Speaker Rahul Narwekar declared Eknath Shinde's faction as the 'real' Shiv Sena, solidifying their control over the party. || <ref>{{cite web |title=Sena vs Sena: Speaker says Shinde Sena 'real party', dismisses all pleas for disqualification |url=https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/mumbai/maharashtra-speaker-verdict-shiv-sena-disqualification-rahul-narwekar-9103444/ |website=The Indian Express |date=2024-01-10 |access-date=2024-11-23}}</ref>
|}
{{reflist}}


I hope this provides some clarity and context --] (]) 23:06, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
Someone(preferably with a better grasp of the English language) really should rewrite this article.


== Proposal to Merge ']' into ']' ==
== Sources on "Statue desecration" riots ==
There is ]. Context: Currently, there are '''two separate''' pages—'Shiv Sena' and 'Shiv Sena (2022–Present)'—dedicated to the '''same political party'''. The party's leadership was disputed in 2022, but its existence remained unchanged. For additional clarity, ]. I propose merging the 'Shiv Sena (2022–Present)' page into the main 'Shiv Sena' article, with developments post-2022 included as a subsection to provide a comprehensive historical narrative. Kindly have a ] --] (]) 03:27, 24 November 2024 (UTC)


:Not gonna work. Even Godi media outlets call it "Shinde's Shiv Sena", We are calling it "Shiv Sena (2022–Present)" which is more supportive of your point of view. - ] (]) 05:30, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
'''Makes very pretty pictures of Congress party's hypocrisy: Violent reaction towards Muslims protesting in Bhiwandi by even firing leading to two deaths; kid gloves for Shiv Sena terrorist attacking properties and lives! "Incestous bedfellows" leaps to the mind!'''


== Move discussion in progress ==
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41866000/jpg/_41866578_shivafp2_203.jpg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5163288.stm
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2006/20060710/nat1.jpg
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2006/20060710/main2.htm
http://www.mumbaimirror.com/nmirror/Mirror/2006/7/10/2/7920062313931279200622587203/images/imgn1city_09.jpg
http://www.mumbaimirror.com/nmirror/mmpaper.asp?sectid=2&articleid=7920062313931279200622587203#
http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=307745&sid=REG&ssid=
http://www.cybernoon.com/DisplayArticle.asp?section=fromthepress&subsection=inbombay&xfile=July2006_inbombay_standard10184
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1722155.cms
http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_full_story.php?content_id=133400
http://www.ndtv.com/homepage/gallery.asp?imgid=316&img=1
http://www.ndtv.com/images/APphotogallery/mumbairiots/1.jpg
http://www.ndtv.com/images/APphotogallery/mumbairiots/2.jpg
http://www.ndtv.com/images/APphotogallery/mumbairiots/3.jpg
http://www.ndtv.com/images/APphotogallery/mumbairiots/4.jpg
http://www.ndtv.com/images/APphotogallery/mumbairiots/5.jpg
http://www.daijiworld.com/news/news_disp.asp?n_id=23830&n_tit=Mumbai%3A%20Defaced%20Statue%20of%20Thackeray's%20Wife%20Creates%20Tension


There is a move discussion in progress on ] which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. <!-- Talk:Shiv Sena (2022–present)#Proposal to Merge 'Shiv Sena (2022–Present)' into 'Shiv Sena' crosspost --> —] 09:37, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
] 17:10, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


== Merge proposal ==
: Thank you. I'm glad to see that some Congress members have brains. The Shic Sainiks had every right to protest the desecration of an important symbol of their party. I find it amusing that you attack them for this minor spat, yet I'm sure you rooted for the muslims when they rioted worldwide over the Jylliands-Posden (prob'ly wrong spelling) cartoons of Mohamed. (] 17:31, 10 July 2006 (UTC))
{{archive top|There is '''no consensus''' to merge the articles. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 13:36, 12 January 2025 (UTC) }}
I propose merging ] into ] because they are the same party, as recognised by ECI. For precedent see ]. ] (] • ]) 11:44, 27 November 2024 (UTC)


:'''Oppose'''. SS had split into ] and BSS . ECI gave the name and symbol to BSS later on and there is an ongoing court case on it. Both claim to be the "real Shiv Sena", this is taking sides in a dispute. NCP never officially split into two before Ajit Pawar was handed control of the party. ] (]) 03:48, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
::The Congress has brains only for malice. The Shiv Sena is the ] of the Congress; they only pretend to be enemies, but they are in fact one. "Important symbol" bollocks; both the Congress and Shiv Sena are nothing but lowbrow robbers who encroach on the public and impose on them. Build your memorials to Sanjay Gandhi and Meena Thugraj on your own properties, not state properties. What is the ] doing? They did good work getting the Courts to force the City to demolish illegal mosques, temples and churches encroaching on public land, but what about this Meena Thugraj temple?
::Which ongoing court case? All court cases have been resolved. The dispute is settled as far as most people are concerned. Just by naming the article Shiv Sena (2022–present) we are recognising it as the "real Shiv Sena". ] (] • ]) 07:05, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
:::They have not been. , quote: "the court battle is still going on". We are also distinguishing it from this Shiv Sena because RSes distinguish it by calling that one Shinde's Shiv Sena or Shinde faction, etc.
:::As far as I am concerning, we are naming it Shiv Sena (2022–present) because it's the current official name. If you think we are taking sides then you can start a discussion on that page to find a better name to disambiguate it. ] (]) 09:33, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
::::We do not take much notice of ]s. Regardless of the court proceedings or rulings, if we say or imply in the ] of Misplaced Pages that one of the parties is the '''real''' ''Shiv Sena'' then we are taking sides. This is tricky because readers cannot be expected to know our article naming standards.
::::So, the article naming policy is designed to avoid as far as possible such inferences being made.
::::Of course supporters of the various claimants want their favourite to be given the name by Misplaced Pages, and this includes the authors of reliable sources. Tricky indeed. Thus is an example of a source being reliable for some sorts of information but not others.
::::To cut to the chase, I think we want an article called ''{{-r|Shiv Sena}}'', and that the article needs to in some way cover all the uses of that name. A ] is the obvious way of doing this, but may not be the best way. ] (]) 02:30, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
:::::I am not getting your position. Merging would be saying in the voice of Misplaced Pages that one of the parties is the real Shiv Sena. So why do you support merge?
:::::This page is about the estwhile undivided Shiv Sena whose legacy both claim and ] is one of the two parties, the other is ].
:::::If we want a single page to cover all usages then it will have to be a disambiguation page. ] (]) 09:07, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
::::::No, it would not need to be a DAB. Why do you say that? ] (]) 20:03, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
:'''Oppose''' - Per MrMkg's argument. - ] (]) 05:04, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
:{{tick}}'''Merge''' the two articles for Shiv Sena into one and '''Create''' a seperate article titled ] for the party that existed during the split.
:*Precedent 1: We don't have Twitter (post-2022) article, instead have a seperate article named Twitter under Elon Musk.
:*Precedent 2: Congress (Indira) does not have a seperate article. As this was recognised by the ECU as original Inc.
:] (]) 16:42, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
::I'm sorry, you want to merge the two articles, and then recreate one of them? Why would we do that? If there is agreement to cover the Shinde faction's future activity at this title, we can just do so. If we want that faction's page to exist at a different title, we can move it. There is no reason at all for the merger. This isn't even a POV issue: regardless of which faction you believe to be the genuine one, there is clearly enough material for a standalone page. This discussion is getting rather silly. ] (]) 17:27, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
:::''Balasahebanchi Shiv Sena'' existed for a few months with its own seperate symbol, therefore a '''seperate''' page is needed.
:::While the two ''Shiv Sena'' pages with bow and arrow symbol needs to be '''merged'''. ] (]) 13:11, 22 December 2024 (UTC)


I think we need to take a step back.
::And you only prove your own insanity when you maliciously pretend that I had rooted for the Muslims protesting the ]. If you had any thing like a brain, you would have seen from my user page that I would be the last to do so. But you are only an arrogant, conceited hoodlum, whether on the streets or on the web. Your arrogance and courage only comes from your numbers, otherwise, alone, you are a coward. Here you have the Goan traitor Nicholas to back your play, besides others.


This is a common political problem when a party splits, and Misplaced Pages needs to avoid taking sides, and this can be very tricky. Because for example if as in this case one of the new parties has succeeded in the courts in acquiring the rights to the old name, that doesn't necessarily mean that under our naming policies the article on that party should receive this old name, much as their supporters might want it to.
::] 04:54, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


The first step is to decide what the topics are that deserve their own articles. And names do come into this. If for example the old party name is now commonly applied to one of the new parties, then that raises the possibility that they are in a sense the same party and can be covered by a single article. We need to be careful not to assume this, as that supports this new party and is thus POV. But we also need to use this old name for the new party if that's what our naming policies indicate. To avoid this unnecessarily is also POV. Lots going on. ] (]) 10:55, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
==Debate over Shiv Sena Article ==


* '''Support merge'''. On reflection, this is IMO an improvement. We should not make perfect the enemy of good. ] (]) 20:11, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
All right. Now that the article has been protected. I am prepared to debate with anyone who wants to do so about Shiv Sena. I challenge ] , ] or anyone to engage me in civilized debate over this decisive organization, although I am highly skeptical this will happen. There is only so much anti-India and anti-Hindu hatred that I can take.(] 17:31, 10 July 2006 (UTC))


*An important question here is whether reliable sources treat the post-2022 version as its own entity, or whether they consider it a <s>new party</s><u>continuation</u>. I haven't read enough to be certain. ] (]) 20:52, 29 November 2024 (UTC) (amending, this is what I meant to write). ] (]) 17:08, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
:How do you debate with a stone-throwing, violent, fanatic Neanderthal thug? Thuggery and civilized debates are mutually exclusive! ] 04:54, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
*:They treat it as its own entity. They consider the party to have split and add distinguishing language for "Shiv Sena (2022–present)" like calling it Shinde's Shiv Sena or Shiv Sena (Shinde) or Shinde group/faction, etc to distinguish it from Shiv Sena (UBT) and the former Shiv Sena (either without any distinguishing addition or sometimes as "undivided").
:]. I don't debate with people who worship with Nazi hitler-youth members like the Catholic pope either, so we're even(] 05:37, 11 July 2006 (UTC))
*:List of sources:–
::*
::*
::*
::*
::*
::*
::* (SS(UBT), Shinde faction and MNS are all considered offshoots)
::*
::*
::* (Marathi)
::Shiv Sena had a splinter before in the 2000s too (called ]) but MNS was seen as a sole offshoot. Distinguishing language was never used for the Shiv Sena then. It was considered that there was only one Shiv Sena and MNS was a new party. Unlike the present split.
::@] What do you think? ] (]) 10:15, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose, for the moment''' based on the sources above. It's quite clear that the media are treating ''both'' factions as distinct, and we should therefore do the same. However, it's not unlikely that in the long term one or other of these will become the "primary" party once again, and would therefore need to be described in this article (under the "Shiv Sena" name with no qualifications). For some precedent, the page about the Indian National Congress describes a continuous history, but we have pages about the short-lived factions that existed in the late 1960s and 1970s, even the ones which were eventually recognized as the continuation of the parent party: see ], for instance. We should of course note which faction was granted the parent party's symbol and name, including in this article. It's also not unlikely that, even if we eventually need to do this merge, there will be enough content about the two factions to justify a standalone page for the period during which a primary party hadn't been recognized. ] (]) 17:08, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
Oppose there was one shiv sena party before 2022, ECI has recognised eknath’s shiv sena as official shiv sena bcs they had majority of MLA’s but uddhav also claimed the same, so ECI spit it into two until it’s resolved as government was needed to be formed, and case is still on going, so there has to have 2022-present title, as original shivsena has been dissolved and two new parties have been formed. Here’s the for it ] (]) 12:40, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
<br>
* '''Support''' Based on precedents. I haven't come across any political party page divided based on ''years'' of dispute. Other than that, there are set examples like the ], which shows how Misplaced Pages has consistently handled such situations. The main article for Indian National Congress remains the same, despite numerous leadership changes and splits. Instead of dividing the main article by years, there are separate pages for breakaway factions like:
** ]
** ]
** ]
** ]
:There’s even a dedicated ] to provide clarity. When a party splits or its leadership is disputed in court, the party doesn’t become defunct—it’s just contested. Like a property dispute, the party still exists. However, the current ] article wrongly labels it as defunct. <br>For consistency, I support merging ] into ], with a clear mention in the lead section that the leadership is disputed and the matter is pending in court. This approach ensures clarity and aligns with existing practices on Misplaced Pages. --] (]) 20:41, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
::Your evidence and your position are entirely contradictory. The Indian National Congress that exists today is the successor to the INC (R) and the later INC (I), both of which have their own pages, as you pointed out. If the Shinde faction of the Shiv Sena eventually begins to be treated as the continuation of the parent party - as is likely - we would still preserve ] as a standalone article about the faction, just at a different title. ] (]) 21:28, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
:::There seems to be some misunderstanding. My main point is about adding a year to the title, like ''Shiv Sena (2022–Present)'', which I find inconsistent with how political parties are named on Misplaced Pages. No single media source refers to it as ''"Shiv Sena (2022–Present)"'', which makes this naming even more questionable. The Indian National Congress (INC) is a good example—despite its splits and leadership disputes, there’s no ] or ] article title. Instead, the main article reflects the party’s continuity, and separate pages exist only for truly distinct factions like ] or ]. ''In the case of Shiv Sena, both factions claim to represent the original party founded in 1966''. This makes it more appropriate to have one main article covering the party’s history, with the ongoing leadership dispute explained within it. If the factions eventually evolve into clearly distinct entities, separate articles with consistent naming conventions can be created. --] (]) 19:28, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
::::That is a good argument for renaming the article, but has no bearing at all on the merge proposal. There is considerable evidence showing that the media treat the two factions separately, especially for the substantial period of time during which neither could use the parent party's name and symbol. Even if Shinde's Shiv Sena eventually represents the parent party, its activities during the split are significant enough to maintain this spinoff. It is simply far too much detail for the parent article. ] (]) 17:03, 6 December 2024 (UTC)


::{{ping|AbhiSuryawanshi}} I am sure not even a layman would agree with you. The Congress party founded in 1885 and presided by ] is called "Indian National Congress" or just "Congress" even by the most partisan sources. Whereas Shiv Sena faction headed by ] is commonly called "Shinde's Shiv Sena" by the sources. You can analysis the difference. - ] (]) 03:33, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
== Who is this fanatic ==
:::As per Misplaced Pages policy, we rely on reliable sources. Could you please provide any reliable source where the Shinde-led faction is explicitly identified as "Shiv Sena (2022–Present)"? --] (]) 19:41, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
::::You are now changing the topic, Shiv Sena (2022-Present) is simply a disambiguation. I am going to have no problem with supporting renaming of "Shiv Sena (2022–Present)" to "Shinde's Shiv Sena" should anyone start one such request. - ] (]) 02:45, 6 December 2024 (UTC)


:'''Support'''. Most rationals given here about the Supreme Court's decision impending and the period of BSS and SHS(UBT) seem very insignificant in the context of the article, they can be incorporated into a section that explains the political crisis during the time and also describes the current situation. It seems to me that the situation is similar to that of Congress(R) and Congress(O), seeing that under Shinde, the party has emerged victorious and has won about a similar number of seats and vote share as it did under Thackeray, I don't see why there needs to be two articles for it. Not to forget that it would take an extraordinary effort to correct wikilinks across thousands of articles if these two articles remain separated. ] (]) 07:51, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
This article is definitely very pro-ShivSena. Why are fanatics editing this article? Misplaced Pages is not a repository for party progpoganda. Shiv Sainiks, leave Misplaced Pages alone!
::Election victory is irrelevant here. A lot of wikilinking has already happened. ] (]) 16:38, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}


== Move discussion in progress ==
--] 19:44, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


There is a move discussion in progress on ] which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. <!-- Talk:Shiv Sena (2022–present)#Requested move 25 November 2024 crosspost --> —] 11:52, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
::Pal, Misplaced Pages '''''is''''' a repository for Shiv Sena propaganda. Ask Mr. "Neutral" "Administrator" Nicholas, a Goan traitor busy licking it up for the Shiv Sainiks!!!!

::This is what Mr. Quisling wrote:

:::''Please do not push your POV. Call the Shiv Sena whatever you want on your personal blogs or forums, but here in wikipedia, respect the Neutral Point of View, and Cite credible sources. - Nichalp 17:18, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

::"Neutral"? Calling a spade a spade is "POV"! I suppose that we must not call Hitler an Anti-Semite - that would be "POV"! I suppose we must not call the Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty an act of hypocrisy - that would be "POV". What is '''NOT''' POV is whitewashing the criminal and terrorist activities of the Shiv Sena and its ilk and portraying these vermin as kindergarten kids on a harmless rumpus!!!

::This shameless hypocrite Nicholas writes: ''Protection is not an endorsement of the current page version''. Bloody hell, Nicholas and Pushyamitra Sunga are complicit, and Nicholas has deliberately protected Pushyamitra's castrated version of the page!!! ''Not an endorsement'' my foot!!!

::Quit the dreamworld, pal!!!

::::Baap-re-baap! Hum to dar ke maare kaap rahe hain babu! BWAHAHAHA. I'm neither Marathi nor ShivSainik. I'm a Bengali Telu-Caste. So pity you sir!(] 05:36, 11 July 2006 (UTC))

::] 04:54, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

== Lets ban Pusyamitra Sunga ==

If there is a mechanism to ban Pusyamitra Sunga from editing, then I am in support of it. He seems to be a Shiv Sainik using Misplaced Pages for his propoganda. His presence is disgusting.
:Too bad, I'm back. Can;t stop the truth mein Freund. Even your Allah said so. (] 05:35, 11 July 2006 (UTC))

==Removed ad-Hominem attack==
Removed racist and insulting post by Wikisceptic (sceptic indeed). How'd you like it if somebody called your christian pope a Nazi for being part of the Hitler youth gang? Please don;t act like a 12 year old boy.(] 05:34, 11 July 2006 (UTC))

Latest revision as of 13:37, 12 January 2025

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Feedback from New Page Review process

I left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: this probably needs to be a disambiguation page now

-MPGuy2824 (talk) 07:38, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 11 November 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Andrewa (talk) 06:25, 21 November 2024 (UTC)


Shiv Sena (1966–2022)Shiv Sena – Need discussion for undiscussed move to this current title Shiv Sena (1966–2022). This article may be the primary topic for the name "Shiv Sena", even if the party has been split into two. Natg 19 (talk) 21:43, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Note: Noticeboard for India-related topics has been notified of this discussion. Natg 19 (talk) 18:23, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
Note: WikiProject Politics has been notified of this discussion. Natg 19 (talk) 18:30, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
@Ratnahastin: Request to keep discussions open at-least for a week and provide references and citations before making major moves. Please re-open to the discussion. Thank you. --AbhiSuryawanshi (talk) 22:13, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
Kindly check https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Shiv_Sena#Clarification_on_Shiv_Sena_dispute for additional context. --AbhiSuryawanshi (talk) 00:00, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
I cannot re-open a discussion closed by an admin, you can trying asking them. - Ratnahastin (talk) 01:41, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

About Shiv Sena being defunct

In 2022, the Election Commission of India (ECI) recognized Eknath Shinde as the leader of the original Shiv Sena, granting his faction the party's name and the "bow and arrow" symbol. Consequently, no new party was created for Eknath Shinde; he inherited the existing Shiv Sena. Meanwhile, Uddhav Thackeray's faction was assigned a new name, 'Shiv Sena (Uddhav Balasaheb Thackeray),' and a new symbol, the 'flaming torch' (mashaal). Therefore, it's appropriate to include the developments from 2022 onwards as a subsection within the existing Shiv Sena article, rather than creating a separate section. --AbhiSuryawanshi (talk) 21:57, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Clarification on Shiv Sena dispute

It might be confusing for average readers and editors regarding the recent developments in the Shiv Sena party. To clarify the situation, I am sharing some key facts along with reliable references and citations to help others understand the main issue.

Split

The split in the Shiv Sena resulted in two factions:

  1. "Balasahebanchi Shiv Sena" led by Eknath Shinde (not to be confused with main Shiv Sena) and
  2. "Shiv Sena (Uddhav Balasaheb Thackeray)" or "Shiv Sena UBT" led by Uddhav Thackeray.

This division was temporary as the courts and the Election Commission of India (ECI) were determining who should inherit the original Shiv Sena. Ultimately, Eknath Shinde's faction, Balasahebanchi Shiv Sena, received control of the original party, thereby resolving the dispute. Following this, Shiv Sena (UBT) emerged as an independent party with its own symbol and identity, distinct from the original Shiv Sena, as they lost their legal battle in front of the ECI and the courts.

Legal Resolution of Dispute

As it was not a traditional party split, legal dispute was resolved by the Election Commission of India (ECI):

  1. ECI granted Eknath Shinde's faction the original Shiv Sena name and "Bow and Arrow" symbol. This also meant temporary "Balasahebanchi Shiv Sena" arrangement was merged into original party.
  2. Uddhav Thackeray's group became a new party: "Shiv Sena (Uddhav Balasaheb Thackeray)" with "Flaming Torch" symbol.

Reasons for ECI Decision

Shinde's faction had majority support in legislative wing (76% vs 23.5%). Decision based on Supreme Court precedents emphasizing majority principle.

Key Points

  • Shinde retained original Shiv Sena identity and properties (i.e Shiv Sena). No new party was created, he simply inherited old Shiv Sena.
  • Thackeray's faction is a new party, not a sub-party of Shiv Sena. i.e (Shiv Sena UBT)
  • The dispute was resolved legally, not through a voluntary split.

Timeline of Shiv Sena Dispute and Split

Timeline of Events
Date Event Description References
June 21, 2022 Eknath Shinde's Rebellion Eknath Shinde, along with several MLAs, rebelled against Uddhav Thackeray, leading to a split within the Shiv Sena and the collapse of the Maha Vikas Aghadi (MVA) coalition.
June 23, 2022 Disqualification Notices The Deputy Speaker of Maharashtra issued disqualification notices to 16 rebel MLAs from Shinde's faction.
June 26, 2022 Supreme Court Intervention Shinde moved the Supreme Court against the disqualification notices. The court granted interim relief to the rebel MLAs.
July 3, 2022 New Speaker Recognition Rahul Narwekar was elected as the new Speaker of the Maharashtra Assembly and recognized Shinde's faction as the legitimate Shiv Sena.
August 23, 2022 Referral to Constitution Bench The Supreme Court referred the disqualification cases related to both factions to a Constitution Bench for further deliberation.
February 17, 2023 ECI Decision The Election Commission of India granted Eknath Shinde's faction the name "Shiv Sena" and the "Bow and Arrow" symbol, recognizing it as the original party. Uddhav Thackeray's faction was named "Shiv Sena (Uddhav Balasaheb Thackeray)" with a new symbol, the "Flaming Torch."
March 16, 2023 Supreme Court Hearing Completed The Supreme Court completed hearings regarding disqualification matters but reserved its judgment for later.
May 11, 2023 Supreme Court Ruling The Supreme Court ruled that the government led by Eknath Shinde would continue as it could not reinstate Thackeray's government without a floor test.
October 30, 2023 Deadline Set by Supreme Court The Supreme Court set a deadline for the Maharashtra Speaker to decide on cross-petitions filed by both factions regarding disqualification.
January 10, 2024 Speaker's Declaration Maharashtra Speaker Rahul Narwekar declared Eknath Shinde's faction as the 'real' Shiv Sena, solidifying their control over the party.
  1. Sharma, Padmakshi (2023-02-17). "Shiv Sena Rift : Why Election Commission Allowed Eknath Shinde To Retain Official Name & Symbol? Read Reasons". www.livelaw.in. Retrieved 2024-11-23.
  2. Bureau, The Hindu (2023-02-17). "Eknath Shinde faction gets Shiv Sena name, symbol". The Hindu. ISSN 0971-751X. Retrieved 2024-11-23. {{cite news}}: |last= has generic name (help)
  3. "Shiv Sena (UBT) Gets Modified 'Mashaal' Symbol Ahead Of Maharashtra Election". News18. Retrieved 2024-11-23.
  4. Sharma, Padmakshi (2023-02-17). "Shiv Sena Rift : Why Election Commission Allowed Eknath Shinde To Retain Official Name & Symbol? Read Reasons". www.livelaw.in. Retrieved 2024-11-23.
  5. "Election Commission allots Shiv Sena name, bow and arrow symbol to Shinde faction". India Today. 2023-02-17. Retrieved 2024-11-23.
  6. "Maharashtra Political Crisis: MVA slides into minority; here's how the numbers stand". The Hindu. 2022-06-22. Retrieved 2024-11-23.
  7. "Shiv Sena MLA Disqualification Case: An Analysis of Anti-Defection Law". PWOnlyIAS. 2023-01-15. Retrieved 2024-11-23.
  8. "Understanding the Shiv Sena Conflict". Supreme Court Observer. 2022-07-01. Retrieved 2024-11-23.
  9. "Shiv Sena split explained". Deccan Herald. 2023-01-10. Retrieved 2024-11-23.
  10. "Shiv Sena Case: Supreme Court Constitution Bench Reserves Judgment". LiveLaw. 2023-03-16. Retrieved 2024-11-23.
  11. "Eknath Shinde faction wins Shiv Sena symbol war: A timeline of events". India Today. 2023-02-17. Retrieved 2024-11-23.
  12. "Shiv Sena Case: Supreme Court Constitution Bench Reserves Judgment". LiveLaw. 2023-03-16. Retrieved 2024-11-23.
  13. "Maharashtra Governor, Speakers' Actions Illegal But Can't Restore Uddhav Govt: Supreme Court". The Wire. 2023-05-11. Retrieved 2024-11-23.
  14. "Sena vs Sena: Speaker says Shinde Sena 'real party', dismisses all pleas for disqualification". The Indian Express. 2024-01-10. Retrieved 2024-11-23.
  15. "Sena vs Sena: Speaker says Shinde Sena 'real party', dismisses all pleas for disqualification". The Indian Express. 2024-01-10. Retrieved 2024-11-23.

I hope this provides some clarity and context --AbhiSuryawanshi (talk) 23:06, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Proposal to Merge 'Shiv Sena (2022–Present)' into 'Shiv Sena'

There is proposal to merge on talk page. Context: Currently, there are two separate pages—'Shiv Sena' and 'Shiv Sena (2022–Present)'—dedicated to the same political party. The party's leadership was disputed in 2022, but its existence remained unchanged. For additional clarity, please refer to the discussion on the talk page. I propose merging the 'Shiv Sena (2022–Present)' page into the main 'Shiv Sena' article, with developments post-2022 included as a subsection to provide a comprehensive historical narrative. Kindly have a look at the proposal --AbhiSuryawanshi (talk) 03:27, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Not gonna work. Even Godi media outlets call it "Shinde's Shiv Sena", We are calling it "Shiv Sena (2022–Present)" which is more supportive of your point of view. - Ratnahastin (talk) 05:30, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Shiv Sena (2022–present) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 09:37, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Merge proposal

There is no consensus to merge the articles. Seraphimblade 13:36, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


I propose merging Shiv Sena (2022–present) into Shiv Sena because they are the same party, as recognised by ECI. For precedent see Nationalist Congress Party. Arnav Bhate (talkcontribs) 11:44, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. SS had split into SS(UBT) and BSS . ECI gave the name and symbol to BSS later on and there is an ongoing court case on it. Both claim to be the "real Shiv Sena", this is taking sides in a dispute. NCP never officially split into two before Ajit Pawar was handed control of the party. MrMkG (talk) 03:48, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
Which ongoing court case? All court cases have been resolved. The dispute is settled as far as most people are concerned. Just by naming the article Shiv Sena (2022–present) we are recognising it as the "real Shiv Sena". Arnav Bhate (talkcontribs) 07:05, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
They have not been. Source (19 November 2024), quote: "the court battle is still going on". We are also distinguishing it from this Shiv Sena because RSes distinguish it by calling that one Shinde's Shiv Sena or Shinde faction, etc.
As far as I am concerning, we are naming it Shiv Sena (2022–present) because it's the current official name. If you think we are taking sides then you can start a discussion on that page to find a better name to disambiguate it. MrMkG (talk) 09:33, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
We do not take much notice of official names. Regardless of the court proceedings or rulings, if we say or imply in the voice of Misplaced Pages that one of the parties is the real Shiv Sena then we are taking sides. This is tricky because readers cannot be expected to know our article naming standards.
So, the article naming policy is designed to avoid as far as possible such inferences being made.
Of course supporters of the various claimants want their favourite to be given the name by Misplaced Pages, and this includes the authors of reliable sources. Tricky indeed. Thus is an example of a source being reliable for some sorts of information but not others.
To cut to the chase, I think we want an article called Shiv Sena, and that the article needs to in some way cover all the uses of that name. A set index article is the obvious way of doing this, but may not be the best way. Andrewa (talk) 02:30, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
I am not getting your position. Merging would be saying in the voice of Misplaced Pages that one of the parties is the real Shiv Sena. So why do you support merge?
This page is about the estwhile undivided Shiv Sena whose legacy both claim and Shiv Sena (2022–present) is one of the two parties, the other is Shiv Sena (UBT).
If we want a single page to cover all usages then it will have to be a disambiguation page. MrMkG (talk) 09:07, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
No, it would not need to be a DAB. Why do you say that? Andrewa (talk) 20:03, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
Oppose - Per MrMkg's argument. - Ratnahastin (talk) 05:04, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
checkYMerge the two articles for Shiv Sena into one and Create a seperate article titled Balasahebanchi Shiv Sena for the party that existed during the split.
  • Precedent 1: We don't have Twitter (post-2022) article, instead have a seperate article named Twitter under Elon Musk.
  • Precedent 2: Congress (Indira) does not have a seperate article. As this was recognised by the ECU as original Inc.
Manasbose (talk) 16:42, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
I'm sorry, you want to merge the two articles, and then recreate one of them? Why would we do that? If there is agreement to cover the Shinde faction's future activity at this title, we can just do so. If we want that faction's page to exist at a different title, we can move it. There is no reason at all for the merger. This isn't even a POV issue: regardless of which faction you believe to be the genuine one, there is clearly enough material for a standalone page. This discussion is getting rather silly. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:27, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
Balasahebanchi Shiv Sena existed for a few months with its own seperate symbol, therefore a seperate page is needed.
While the two Shiv Sena pages with bow and arrow symbol needs to be merged. Manasbose (talk) 13:11, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

I think we need to take a step back.

This is a common political problem when a party splits, and Misplaced Pages needs to avoid taking sides, and this can be very tricky. Because for example if as in this case one of the new parties has succeeded in the courts in acquiring the rights to the old name, that doesn't necessarily mean that under our naming policies the article on that party should receive this old name, much as their supporters might want it to.

The first step is to decide what the topics are that deserve their own articles. And names do come into this. If for example the old party name is now commonly applied to one of the new parties, then that raises the possibility that they are in a sense the same party and can be covered by a single article. We need to be careful not to assume this, as that supports this new party and is thus POV. But we also need to use this old name for the new party if that's what our naming policies indicate. To avoid this unnecessarily is also POV. Lots going on. Andrewa (talk) 10:55, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

  • An important question here is whether reliable sources treat the post-2022 version as its own entity, or whether they consider it a new partycontinuation. I haven't read enough to be certain. Vanamonde93 (talk) 20:52, 29 November 2024 (UTC) (amending, this is what I meant to write). Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:08, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
    They treat it as its own entity. They consider the party to have split and add distinguishing language for "Shiv Sena (2022–present)" like calling it Shinde's Shiv Sena or Shiv Sena (Shinde) or Shinde group/faction, etc to distinguish it from Shiv Sena (UBT) and the former Shiv Sena (either without any distinguishing addition or sometimes as "undivided").
    List of sources:–
Shiv Sena had a splinter before in the 2000s too (called MNS) but MNS was seen as a sole offshoot. Distinguishing language was never used for the Shiv Sena then. It was considered that there was only one Shiv Sena and MNS was a new party. Unlike the present split.
@Vanamonde93 What do you think? MrMkG (talk) 10:15, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose, for the moment based on the sources above. It's quite clear that the media are treating both factions as distinct, and we should therefore do the same. However, it's not unlikely that in the long term one or other of these will become the "primary" party once again, and would therefore need to be described in this article (under the "Shiv Sena" name with no qualifications). For some precedent, the page about the Indian National Congress describes a continuous history, but we have pages about the short-lived factions that existed in the late 1960s and 1970s, even the ones which were eventually recognized as the continuation of the parent party: see Indian National Congress (R), for instance. We should of course note which faction was granted the parent party's symbol and name, including in this article. It's also not unlikely that, even if we eventually need to do this merge, there will be enough content about the two factions to justify a standalone page for the period during which a primary party hadn't been recognized. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:08, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose there was one shiv sena party before 2022, ECI has recognised eknath’s shiv sena as official shiv sena bcs they had majority of MLA’s but uddhav also claimed the same, so ECI spit it into two until it’s resolved as government was needed to be formed, and case is still on going, so there has to have 2022-present title, as original shivsena has been dissolved and two new parties have been formed. Here’s the Source for it Shubhamgawali1 (talk) 12:40, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

There’s even a dedicated List of Indian National Congress breakaway parties to provide clarity. When a party splits or its leadership is disputed in court, the party doesn’t become defunct—it’s just contested. Like a property dispute, the party still exists. However, the current Shiv Sena article wrongly labels it as defunct.
For consistency, I support merging Shiv Sena (2022–Present) into Shiv Sena, with a clear mention in the lead section that the leadership is disputed and the matter is pending in court. This approach ensures clarity and aligns with existing practices on Misplaced Pages. --AbhiSuryawanshi (talk) 20:41, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
Your evidence and your position are entirely contradictory. The Indian National Congress that exists today is the successor to the INC (R) and the later INC (I), both of which have their own pages, as you pointed out. If the Shinde faction of the Shiv Sena eventually begins to be treated as the continuation of the parent party - as is likely - we would still preserve Shiv Sena (2022–Present) as a standalone article about the faction, just at a different title. Vanamonde93 (talk) 21:28, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
There seems to be some misunderstanding. My main point is about adding a year to the title, like Shiv Sena (2022–Present), which I find inconsistent with how political parties are named on Misplaced Pages. No single media source refers to it as "Shiv Sena (2022–Present)", which makes this naming even more questionable. The Indian National Congress (INC) is a good example—despite its splits and leadership disputes, there’s no INC (pre-1969) or INC (post-1969) article title. Instead, the main article reflects the party’s continuity, and separate pages exist only for truly distinct factions like Indian National Congress (R) or Indian National Congress (I). In the case of Shiv Sena, both factions claim to represent the original party founded in 1966. This makes it more appropriate to have one main article covering the party’s history, with the ongoing leadership dispute explained within it. If the factions eventually evolve into clearly distinct entities, separate articles with consistent naming conventions can be created. --AbhiSuryawanshi (talk) 19:28, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
That is a good argument for renaming the article, but has no bearing at all on the merge proposal. There is considerable evidence showing that the media treat the two factions separately, especially for the substantial period of time during which neither could use the parent party's name and symbol. Even if Shinde's Shiv Sena eventually represents the parent party, its activities during the split are significant enough to maintain this spinoff. It is simply far too much detail for the parent article. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:03, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
@AbhiSuryawanshi: I am sure not even a layman would agree with you. The Congress party founded in 1885 and presided by Mallikarjun Kharge is called "Indian National Congress" or just "Congress" even by the most partisan sources. Whereas Shiv Sena faction headed by Eknath Shinde is commonly called "Shinde's Shiv Sena" by the sources. You can analysis the difference. - Ratnahastin (talk) 03:33, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
As per Misplaced Pages policy, we rely on reliable sources. Could you please provide any reliable source where the Shinde-led faction is explicitly identified as "Shiv Sena (2022–Present)"? --AbhiSuryawanshi (talk) 19:41, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
You are now changing the topic, Shiv Sena (2022-Present) is simply a disambiguation. I am going to have no problem with supporting renaming of "Shiv Sena (2022–Present)" to "Shinde's Shiv Sena" should anyone start one such request. - Ratnahastin (talk) 02:45, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
Support. Most rationals given here about the Supreme Court's decision impending and the period of BSS and SHS(UBT) seem very insignificant in the context of the article, they can be incorporated into a section that explains the political crisis during the time and also describes the current situation. It seems to me that the situation is similar to that of Congress(R) and Congress(O), seeing that under Shinde, the party has emerged victorious and has won about a similar number of seats and vote share as it did under Thackeray, I don't see why there needs to be two articles for it. Not to forget that it would take an extraordinary effort to correct wikilinks across thousands of articles if these two articles remain separated. Xoocit (talk) 07:51, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
Election victory is irrelevant here. A lot of wikilinking has already happened. Capitals00 (talk) 16:38, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Shiv Sena (2022–present) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 11:52, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

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