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{{notice|<center>'''Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates.'''<br/>
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'''He holds the founder's seat on the ]'s ].<br/>The three trustees elected as community representatives until July 2015 are ], ], and ].<br/>The Wikimedia Foundation Senior Community Advocate is ].'''</center>}}
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'''He holds the founder's seat on the ]'s .<br />The current ] occupying "community-selected" seats are ], ], ] and ].<br />The Wikimedia Foundation's Lead Manager of Trust and Safety is ].'''}}}}
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| author = Matthew Gault
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| title = Misplaced Pages Editors Very Mad About Jimmy Wales' NFT of a Misplaced Pages Edit
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==]==
==Homophobia in the Ukrainian Misplaced Pages!!!==
]
Hello. I'm open gay Wikipedian from Ukraine. I want to report a homophobic activities of some administrators and patrol Ukrainian Misplaced Pages. Present direct and indirect discrimination. Related articles LGBT renamed, removed or changed beyond recognition and biased their content. LGBT friendly accused of "advocating LGBT"! There is even an article on a similar topic that is unique only in the Russian Misplaced Pages and is unrelated to common sense and the rules of Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages Misplaced Pages, homophobes administrators and patrol called a "collection of information" and promote "non-traditional values." Homosexuality Article in Ukrainian Misplaced Pages entitled "homosexualist." And Article hey do not have any relation to the topic of the article. There napsyano of MSM and that gays - spread the AIDS disease. User A1 promotes orthodox attitudes to homosexuality and phaye information on how it relates to LGBT church in the paper, which is irrelevant. The new administrator Green Zero has deleted many categories and articles on LGBT issues. particular category of gay writers. Me and other LGBT participants repeatedly verbally humiliated publicly. Addiction is especially thorough and biased. Although we attempt to write quality articles as possible and have contributed enough respect. That our existence they and other homophobes recognized as "LGBT propaganda." I and other LGBT Wikipedian very simple somehow affect this entire situation because this is unacceptable - it bullinh and in direct violation of not only LGBT rights in Ukraine but also the rules of Misplaced Pages! Thank you! Please help! --] (]) 21:03, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
]
:{{reply to|Rayan Riener}} Bystander here. I have added a ] to the first article you linked to. Although I do not speak your language, Google Translate shows that the article is not very neutral. Could someone who speaks Ukrainian read the linked pages and tell us about them? --]&nbsp;<font color="#000000">'''&#183;'''</font>&nbsp;] 03:40, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
Happy New Year Jimbo!!! I hope all is well with you and your team.
:::Another bystander here with no opinion about content. The title of the first article is "Homosexual Propaganda" so it's reasonable to expect that there would be non neutral information there. There's a different article called "Homosexuality" that seems a lot more reasonable to me at first glance. If this is a content dispute, has it been addressed on the article talk page? I know the language, but maybe not as well as a native speaker. This example is a proposal to rename the article. The title is not ""homosexualist" like is being claimed. The proposal is to rename the article from "Societal attitudes toward homosexualism" to "Societal attitudes toward homosexuality." The discussion on the proposal talks about how the words related to homosexuality are not native to the Ukrainian language. All versions of the word are adaptations of English. So the discussion is about what's the right word to use "homosexuality" or "homosexualism."
:::According to the user page, ] claims to know Ukrainian, so my question is why are they not on the Ukrainian WP addressing this on the talk page there? What is being claimed in this English request is not reflected on the article. "There is even an article on a similar topic that is unique only in the Russian Misplaced Pages" --- I see the same article in Russian, Ukrainian and Polish, and they're not recent, they've been there for years. I don't know if Rayan Riener is fluent in English, but this request makes no sense to me. ] (]) 04:52, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
::::Could it be that ] does not understand English well and wrote the above post with the help of a machine translation? The user, "Green Zero" (admin), mentioned does seem to have replaced some instances of "homosexual" with "gay:" , but I cannot make a judgement as I cannot understand the language without the help of Google Translate. However, that action was eventually reverted by another editor. Just out of curiosity, are there any articles named "Homosexual Propaganda" in other wikis besides what you mentioned? I know that on enwiki, it redirects to a more neutral section on ]. --]&nbsp;<font color="#000000">'''&#183;'''</font>&nbsp;] 05:09, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::Based on their edit history, it's very possible that ] has a very limited proficiency in English and contributes with assistance, electronic for very simple things, and a secretary for more complicated things like this request. Their user page is written in third person, like a famous person's profile. If they contribute in other languages, their profile is not linked to their English profile, and being from a region not friendly to their needs, there may be a good reason for this, so I'm assuming good faith. As far as I can tell, Rayan Riener is unhappy with the actions of admins on Ukrainian Misplaced Pages. It's hard to tell what those actions are, because we don't know his identity there, so I can't track the actual edits. Rayan Riener doesn't have a talk page, and even if he did, I'm not sure he would be able to use it, but it's worth a try if someone wants to do that. As far as "Homosexual propaganda" article, it exists in Russian, Ukrainian and Polish. The title reflect the actual term used in other languages and in parliament to write laws for several countries including ]. If they're legislating "Homosexual propaganda" people need to know what it means. In the lede it does a good job of explaining what the term means to both sides, those who do and do not support the idea of homosexuality. And it's written in a neutral tone. Both Russian and Ukrainian articles seem fine in the lede. I can't speak for Polish. In the Russian version, it even explains that "propaganda" is not used in the traditional sense, that it's a combined term. Yes, that's correct. It's a combination of two words that means something different than each word individually. In English "Homosexual propaganda" means something totally different, that's why it redirects. An example of a combined term in English would be "pretty cool" where each word separately means something different. It's also possible that Rayan Riener only speaks English, which would explain his outrage. ] (]) 07:24, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
{{od}}
{{u|Rayan Riener}} I have to edit here as an IP because ]. But let me address some of the issues you have raised here. For the record, I am queer myself. :)

I have discussed the issues you raised above with some editors from Ukrainian Misplaced Pages, and in no particular order, the following needs to be raised:

# found that you have been "abusing" multiple accounts. In addition to your Rayan account, you also were using ]. Whilst this in itself is not a problem if you are creating content, like I have, where you ran into trouble is.....
# at ].
# on Misplaced Pages, we don't tend separate "gay" or "lesbian" from "LGBT" topics. Simply put, human sexuality is a complex subject and LGBT covers-all.
# many of the comments in that discussion from ] are, I agree, totally unacceptable. Being a board member of Wikimedia Ukraine, A1 should take stock of what they have said there and think whether some of their comments were appropriate (they are not!), and perhaps Wikimedia Ukraine members should think whether his comments truly are representative of Wikimedia projects.
# the articles you mention which were deleted, there are several issues:
## was deleted for being a copyvio of .
## was deleted for not being notable. It is available ] and it simply isn't notable.
## Likewise was deleted for similar reasons. It is apparently a yaoi manga by ], whom himself does not appear to be notable.
## There were several other deletions of non-notable garage bands and the like.
## There were also several machine translations of articles. Don't use machine translations on articles, do natural translations.
# Apparently you sent invites to over 100 editors on Ukrainian Misplaced Pages inviting them to join an LGBT WikiProject. Whilst a project for LGBT subjects would be an excellent idea, it's apparent that posted invites to random editors, many of whom have not shown an interest in editing those subjects. Targeted invites to editors whom had shown interest in those subjects would have been a better idea.

On the general issue of so-called gay propaganda, I can attest that ] is an absolutely horrific article. We need to remember that Misplaced Pages is the sum-of-all human knowledge, not just the sum of all Ukrainian knowledge, or Russian knowledge, or American knowledge. It is similar to ] here on this project, in that it does not present a worldwide view of the subject, and yes, all of these articles could do with a lot of work. Just be sure to aim for neutrality when editing and cover all points of view from a worldwide viewpoint. Good luck. ] (]) 10:53, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
: Perhaps I should add that ]'s views on this matter do not represent WMUA's position in any way. I, also being member of the board of WMUA, was actually opposing him in one of the discussions. Sincerely, ] (]) 15:44, 15 November 2014 (UTC)


Could you or your page watchers help me with ]? The draft has been declined and tagged up. It was then deleted years ago. I had it restored today after I came across one of his photos. I think he and his photography are fascinating for capturing aspects of New Zealand's transportation and industrial history. His work is in museum and library collections. At least one of his photographs has been used in a book. He photographed Maori sites.
:{{reply to|175.106.47.131}}{{reply to|Russavia}} This is off topic, but I see that you are a sysop on Commons, so out of curiosity, I would like to ask why you were banned here? It seems strange. Thanks, ]&nbsp;<font color="#000000">'''&#183;'''</font>&nbsp;] 21:54, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
::{{re|Tony Tan 98}} . Looks like harassment, edit warring, various other things. ] <sup>(] · ])</sup> 22:29, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
#: Thank you! What is not neutral? What section? --] (]) 07:56, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
#:: Hi, {{reply to|175.106.47.131}}. So, before I had a lot of mistakes. But that was before. I consider myself a beginner and trying to improve my skills, and I think that happens. Ryan Riener account I lost, forgotten password in 2012. Flower Blossom account created in 2013 and used it about a year. But clinging homophobes and removed all the articles on LGBT topics that I translated from English Misplaced Pages. So I created a new account that I did not touch many months was it. Then, to regain its original account. Of course, I had problems with the creation of articles at the beginning. But now everything is quite different. Everything else, except one - the same homophobia. --] (]) 08:20, 16 November 2014 (UTC)


], standing beside a collection of Maori carvings, including two fire-screens, carved by her father Albert Percy Godber]]
* In 1991, according to WHO recommendations, Ukraine was the first former Soviet republic abolished criminal penalties for voluntary sexual relations between adult men (Article 122, part 1 of the Criminal Code of the USSR).
I'm sorry I haven't been able to work the draft up enough to get it admitted to mainspace. It does make me wonder about what we do and don't include, our notability criteria, Articles for Creation (AfC) process, and collaborative ethos. Thanks so much for any help or guidance you can offer! Have a great 2025 and beyond. Thanks again. ] (]) 17:57, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
:If Godber is not ], which is what the draft reviewers say, then Wikipedians can't fix that. ] (]) 09:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
::] is he "notable" and should we have an entry on him? ] (]) 17:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
:::I dunno, but ] wrote that the draft did not show significant coverage about the subject in published, reliable, secondary sources that are independent of the subject at that point. ] (]) 19:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
]
::::And this a request to revisit his finding. We have a photographer from more than 100 years ago who documented areas of New Zealand's North Island. We have his work in a National Library collection. We have his work discussed as iconic for one of his Maori related photographs. We have his work revisited in a 2018 exhibition. We have descriptions of him related to his photographs, his career, and we have the photos themselves documenting the areas industries, sites, infrastructure from more than 100 years ago. If I was satisfied with the previous conclusions I would not be here. So I ask again, should we have an entry on this subject? Should we just attribute his photos where we use them to an unlinked name with no explanation or discussion of who he was? I think the answer is clear, and I wanted to hear Jimbo's opinion. I am aware of what was previously stated. Years have passed and I believe it's time to reevaluate and consider. I also think it's worth reflecting on our article creations processes more generally and how we apply our conception of "notability". ] (]) 23:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
*Godber's photographs include "views of the ] including large numbers of cars traveling to ], and the ]. Another group of images relate to a holiday at the ] Homestead in ] with scenes of farm life, including ], ] sheep, and farm buildings. During their stay in the South Island Godber also took photographs of Dunedin (including the ], ], ], the ], and the Hillside Railway Workshops); ] (including the Invercargill Railway Workshops); Stewart Island, ], ], ], ] and ]. Various railway stations in Canterbury and Otago, the ], and the Rosslyn Mills. Godber was a volunteer fireman with the Petone Fire Brigade with the album including views of the building, groups of firemen, fire engines and other fire fighting equipment, and a building in Petone damaged by fire. In his work with New Zealand Railways, mainly at the Petone Railway Workshops, he took interior photographs of various buildings, including the Machine Shop and finishing benches, the engine room, lathes, boilers, and fitting shops. He also took photographs of many of the steam engines that were built and worked on at the workshops. One scene shows a group of men watching a fight. Many images show his interest in logging railways, particularly in the ], ], ] area. Scenes of logging camps, various methods of transporting logs including bullock teams, logging trains, and dams created and then tripped to send logs down by river, and timber mills. Other topics covered in Godber's photographs are scenes at Maori ] and meeting houses, with some of the people identified; Maori carving and rafter designs; beekeeping, and gold mining." ] (]) 23:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
*It's hard to choose which photos to share. Historic views areas, industries, bridges, natural features, railways and bridges, crafts. to his photos on Misplaced Pages Commons. Many already illustrate our entries on various subjects. ] (]) 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
:: If you really want to help him, get a couple stories published about him in newspapers. Notability here will follow. ] (]) 01:23, 11 January 2025 (UTC)


== Just wanted to say ==
The word "homosexualizm" is used right-wing nationalists, Svoboda or Right Sector (!) Or other parties that support Russia. But rights or Latvia or Ukraine - It does not enshrined in any law (!) A major Ukrainian parties like the "Popular Front" or "Block Petro Poroshenko" (including all coalition representing the majority of the Ukrainian people) call against homophobia, and also promised to introduce legislation on combating discrimination LGBT in Ukraine. --] (]) 08:45, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
* I'll try to add my 5c to help others (as well as ]) better understand the situation.
** First of all, it's true that Ukrainian society is not the most gay-friendly one: sociologically according to the only 4.6% support same-sex marriages. On the other hand, I have absolutely no idea what Right Sector has to do with it: while this party is widely used by Russian propaganda, it does not have any notable pro- or anti-LGBT-related activity. I haven't seen anything either about pro- or anti-LGBT activities of major nationwide parties, thus I have no idea how this is relevant to the case. At the same time, unfortunately there is a problem of users who make untolerant statements, A1 unfortunately being one of them. However, I hope such statements are not representatives of Ukrainian wiki community.
** What is true that most mainstream Ukrainian sources currently use the term ''гомосексуалізм'', while LGBT-community prefers ''гомосексуальність'' to represent homosexuality. I don't see any bias here as well: the term ''гомосексуалізм'' is also used by neutral or sources. It's not up to Misplaced Pages to change terminology, it's up to ]s to change first. There is no difference between the word ''homosexuality'' or any other term here: Misplaced Pages uses the term used in sources, whether you like it or not.
** However, the main issue for Rayan Riener was not that he is an open gay, but his contributions and behaviour. I don't remember any problems with his contributions until he started actively breaching rules, and community largely ignored the fact he was an open gay. However, problems started after creation of 5 sockpuppets (]) with some small contributions to articles and active participation in discussions. Raising an LGBT-related issue in a discussion and promoting your point of view from 5 different accounts is definitely not the best way to do it: constructive, neutral and well-grounded arguments are much better way yo do it. On the other hand, articles by users who made anti-LGBT statements is not a good way to deal with the problem either. Similarly, with text that some people in Ukraine want to destroy the LGBT-community is far from NPOV: such texts are definitely non-neutral and in addition irrelevant. At the same time, (before contributions from one of Rayan's accounts) was much closer to NPOV as it did not contain any comments on the situation, neither pro-LGBT nor anti-LGBT
** Another point that was very negatively viewed by Ukrainian community was . I used the word spamming because most invitations were sent to people having absolutely no interest in the topic. In particular, most ] received no invitations, while users identifying themselves as deeply religious did receive an invitation. An obvious reaction of many people who were never interested in LGBT was reverting the invitation, sometimes with unfriendly comments.
** Finally, there was a problem related to use of sources. While LGBT-community finds that the fact that a person is a gay is very important, that is not true of other users and readers. The fact that a person is a gay might be worth mentioning in the article, but definitely not as a main (in the introduction) or the only fact, except if the person is primarily known for LGBT-activities. In addition, such facts must be well-sourced. For example, it is incorrect to write that ] or ] were gays given the disagreement among biographers and lack of clear evidence, while discussions on sexuality are worth mentioning in the article. In the same way, ] should not be called a ] without mentioning that he refuses this indication. This is extremely important for living people where one should carefully use sources. In the same way, edits with sole contributions being adding the fact that a person is gay without any source, are badly viewed by the community.
** To sum up, this whole story shows that the problem is not about homophobia — it is mostly due to very poor image most contributors now have of the WikiProject LGBT because of repeated breach of rules, including sockpuppetry, vandalism, spam and POV-pushing. I think that constructive contributions, as well as neutral, well-sourced and non-biased articles about LGBT-topics would be much better received by the community, as well as meaningful (and not emotional) arguments in sensible discussions. Most of these homophobia-related stories could have been avoided if articles were well-written and well-sourced, as neutral articles on what a person dislikes are less chances to receive a bad reaction than non-neutral articles on the same issues. I do hope that ] and others will try to keep their contributions as neutral and well-sourced as possible as well as follow rules and guidelines, and this will make the situation much less heated — ] (]) 18:27, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
*** Disagree. Until I pchoav working on LGBT and in particular Articles LGBT project, REAL pressynh I experienced. There is discussion of homophobia and not me as a person. As I tsoum in question supports almost all LGBT Wikipedian who are afraid to write about it openly. All project participants complain about homophobia. When they removed the article only Sawm teum or written there that does not apply to articles. Right Sector consists of many organizations, including organizations "Trident". During Euromaidan, and I was in. I had nowhere to stay, because in my city mayor threatened me as "Titushky." But in the same tent, where I stayed, was "trident". They began Torment, was over the fact that I picked up things as they planned physical punishment, I told the other activists. I was forced to go live in the hostel without food or as to the Navier Street. I could not even go to the area because they threatened me. They always smoked prymyaly drugs and had sex with girls in the tent, in the city center (!) And then you ubdete to me that the right sector and all its participants is okay, and the use of terms extrinsic civilized right ?! I am for all the years of Misplaced Pages is constantly trying to improve their articles, but almost always had to learn all over himself, because the plot Ukrainian Misplaced Pages is not to rule "delete last resort", and such as A1 users that do not interest the article by rules and "Society and homosexuality, "we are almost sure renamed, despite the many voices and arguments against. Argument user A1, which clearly confirms bias and inadequacy and failure criterion removal of articles: "Category is homophobic and violate the rights homikiv. Take a good look at its contents. There Article 4 - Gay Bar, Gay Games, gay pride LGBT rights in Ukraine. The author of this category might think that all this passed into history? So it is not. And gay bars and gay games and gay pride parades in bloom and smell. This is not a story, it is a reality. How can you write off our rainbow reality in history? It's homophobia!" The venerable user Brunei commented on this: "Even there is no desire to vote. Gross violation of rules. Plus the constant generation of conflict on level ground. I understand that Mr difficult days, but all of us is not easy. Suggest send it to rest for a week or another." And now the user A1 with his friend Green Zero znvou took up his. Not only is the article Homosexuality, is evident from the discussion, have long had to be renamed to international standards and Ukrainian, because all terms have long been included, they ATK pryynyalysya distribute the radyanskyy dates and other items. Or psyaty danger of MSM in such articles as Gay and others. His invitation I did the first time. And nowhere spelled out, considered spam and what is not in the rules ni. Tsoho wiki. Instead, "spamlyat" invitation anyone wiki. And on user behavior Jphwra, who called me "idiot". Violated writing my articles or improvements when working with template "writing", and at the same time put Nav ydalennya more than 10 articles, some of which are not even informed about the real authors. Matthew Shepard Naprkylad article! He was motivated by the fact that the bar is red link! Although his articles have a lot of those who do not meet the criteria of significance at all. The article he argued removal as "the importance of the project?" The article as Hardkiss, it is not surprising that thought put to delete article Kazaky. All my complaints to administrators simply wiped out, although yatam explain the behavior of all the people who cry out to me althoughbe blocked by something. The same is arbitrariness in the Russian Misplaced Pages. Curator LGBT blocked by some trifle, like most LGBT contributors. Although they were good Wikipedian. And regarding rights sektour and freedom - these marginalized - in nyhu political agenda spelled "fight antimoral Western propaganda" in one form or another. These parties are the same as the marginal pro and recently the same strength or their followers burned historic Kyiv cinema "October" and then blocked another theater, where he was to appear LGBT film. Do not lie, I'm writing here is not about homophobia, as Western people see everything very clearly. What I chose not to remain silent, others, and say - that's the difference. And so all of a school, and just as Misplaced Pages. Ukrainian Vikipediyinichym no different from the Ukrainian society, and now - and in general - supports rhetoric rightwing groups and religious organizations. I never their faith no imposed when homophobes active Wikipedian-in cap put articles on LGBT deprived neitralnosti rants about "traditional tsinnnosti."


You have created something valuable to everyone on the Internet. I'm sure you get this a lot, but thank you. <br>It may sound weird, but Misplaced Pages has helped me through some tough times. We can never thank you enough for this sometimes infighting, sometimes peaceful, sometimes divided, but always united community You are the backbone of the <s>cabal of editors</s> <b>thriving community</b> that is Misplaced Pages.
Homophobia - that's what I wanted to tell. And my mistakes, nothing to do. On my page in Ukrainian by Misplaced Pages (at the end) is the link to my contribution and everyone can tell whether it is "homophobic propaganda" or so terrible to say that I have really bad Wikipedian what a pity that yevandalom (to quote Mr. Green Zero). The only difference is that I'm the only one who dared to write about it at the risk of their articles. Others wrote to me in private messages and support because they are afraid to say it out loud because of their contribution to do the same as with me, or block. In the words of Mr. A1 - "Misplaced Pages is censorship." I do not know in English, but in Ukrainian, censorship is a small range of users that are administrators and patrol and abuse their powers for LGBT discrimination. A fault for all comers, the EU's my article on the blog (Ukrainian).
I wish I could give you a BarnMilkyWay but no one's come up with that, apparently. (]) &#124; (PS: Have a good day) 00:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)


== ==
Hikaru cite comment regarding renaming: First or "homosexuality" or "homosexuality" is not a native words in Ukrainian language. The term "homosexuality" moved to the Ukrainian language in English at a time when it is mistakenly considered a disease and then in our totalitarian country punishable by imprisonment. Now the disease is not considered either in the world or in Ukraine, why we have to use outdated erroneous terms of foreign origin that have been imposed by the then government? Second suffixes -ism and -ist in Ukrainian language (as in Russian, Belarusian) denote 1. deliberately chosen ideology (fascism, feminism, communism) 2. artistic directions (romanticism, classicism) 3. The concept of language properties (neologism phraseologism). Scientifically proven that homosexuality - it's not a conscious choice. Third term "homosexuality" is not scientifically justified and violates the uniformity of language - "homo" is a prefix, like "heterogeneous", "bi-", "trans" with all of these words used "sexy" (the difference in these words but their meaning). In addition to the examples of "fascism", "feminism", "communism" we use the adjective "feminist", "communist", "fascist". Did anyone says Ukrainian "homoseksualistychnyy" or "homoseksualistskyy"? And finally the whole world believes the term "homosexuality" is not politically correct, and the LGBT community does not use it for self (while homophobic and homophobic organizations deliberately use the term "homosexuality" for humiliation and contempt for LGBT demonstrations). So what is used in the Ukrainian Misplaced Pages is a word that violates the Ukrainian language is considered derogatory, not scientifically justified, and has a number of other contradictions? Just because it is not we imposed our elected government 70 years ago? The word "homosexuality" all of the above issues and controversies denied. Definitely against.


For the interested. ] (]) 10:58, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
That discussion renaming dstatno even a simple translation to understand what is happening:
. Numerous voices and arguments ignored. And do the same by users who have power and use it against LGBT people, as it was deleting the category "Writers gay"


:Summary: {{tq|This document intends to show the problematic situation in Hebrew Misplaced Pages (hewiki), and provide evidence that it has been overtaken by a group of mostly religious and nationalist editors, who prevent others from achieving higher permissions while promoting their own allies.}} –] <small>(])</small> 22:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
Even if all this does not help, English-speaking people need to know that information about LGBT people in Ukraine deliberately distorted, and instead of consensus homophobes use their powers everywhere to LGBT travyly the streets, burning theater, attacked gay clubs, or shot, both the NPT; What Should Misplaced Pages? Neitralno inform people about all significant phenomena that occur in life, or cause a wide range of readers hated minority? Excuse me, is a kind of hell and nowhere to turn... --] (]) 00:58, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
:Google translate is not, of course, the best way to express your point of view. It is not the best way to understand your opponent's either. You wrote in the beginning: "Absolutely agree." But according to what you wrote next, you didn't quite understand what Nickk meant. IMHO, even if he wrote it in Ukrainian - you wouldn't either. Because you don't want to.
:As for me, I am not homophobic. I didn't take part in any of those discussions that all of you mention above. But I ''am'' against ANY propaganda, especially in Misplaced Pages articles. So, {{ping|Rayan Riener}} Learn what is '''neutrality''' in Misplaced Pages and start to make contributions according to it. Stop being so emotional and biased about the topics you work upon - and in a while you'll see that there's no real homophobia addressed against you or your contributions (of course it will exist among users as any other POVs do, but it'll simply become irrelevant). You do this - the problem vanishes. Why do I think so? Because if I suddenly started working upon articles like those you do - no one would be able to reasonably accuse me in being prejudiced.--]<span style="background:#FFFACD;border-radius:2em 0 1.6em;font-family:Verdana;">&nbsp;]&nbsp;</span> 21:33, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
: Woe translation... But I repeat. I speak for all LGBT wikipedians who are intimidated and overwhelmed. They agree with everything I say. Regarding quality I've written - something that is critical of me for some reason does not apply to all others. Fault-finding, provocation, violation neitralnosti to promote hatred towards LGBT people. Subsequently, the appeal will be submitted in relation to this, writing that would not be me, but which I will sign and including all. --] (]) 23:49, 17 November 2014 (UTC)


== Happy new year ==
'''Note''': Someone mentioned an article called "homosexual propaganda" on the Russian WP. Russia has a law about "homosexual propaganda" which has sparked much controversy and outrage, to say the least. it is not surprising that there be an article about it. All&nbsp;the&nbsp;best: '']&nbsp;]'',&nbsp;<small>14:17,&nbsp;18&nbsp;November&nbsp;2014&nbsp;(UTC).</small><br />


Good days, Jimbo. I'd like to say that Chinese Misplaced Pages is introducing ARBCOM System currently, since Arbcom on this project, and in fact all the project is originated from the idea of yours, do you have any opinion for that? Any hints, advice or suggestions? ] 15:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
:I know little about Ukraine or Russia, but I would ask whether a broader focus on documenting human rights could be useful. Though perhaps in ignorance, I feel like the West failed in Russia because they never truly legalized ]: both ] and ] speak of severe legal obstructions that have kept such faiths almost unknown, while a servile ] finds a politically safe common ground in stirring up anti-gay prejudice rather than exploring deeper principle and genuine social awareness. A Christian moved by genuine faith, working independently of government and social approval - even if misled by anti-gay doctrine - should eventually do better than this out of the desire to do good. I would like to see work done on our English articles on ], such as ], with a statement that despite the 1996 constitutional guarantee of religious freedom, "However, as a minority and non-traditional religion the Baptists have been subject to persecution and discrimination, including being arrested." -- with a ''citation needed'' annotation placed in 2010! If people who speak Ukrainian can document contemporary religious freedom issues and the range of religious organizations available in Ukraine from local sources, and if we can get some translators lined up to keep the lines of communication open, we could improve both Wikipedias, and show why Ukraine is a nation worthy of respect in the world, and plot the path that Russia needs to take so that religious doctrine can become something other than a convenience for politically expedient bullying. ] (]) 15:31, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
::Let me begin by saying that I feel for the plight of Russian and Ukrainian people the same way that I feel for the plight of women in the Arab world. Yes, it's bad and inhumane. On the other hand, does a country not have the right to govern itself? The idea that "the West failed in Russia because they never truly legalized freedom of religion" is not the West's business if that's how a country wants to establish itself. To use an example from the West, the US failed to establish a national language, and as a result, Spanish is used in a lot of places to the point where an English speaker can't function in those places. So what? Is this a failure of the East? Did the East fail in its commitment to the West? The Russian empire managed their own affairs for many years before the Internet and before the West got involved. Why is the West getting involved now? People in Russia and everywhere else are capable of making their own decisions about where they want to live and how they want to be governed. Let's respect that. ] (]) 18:39, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
:::(e-c)No, a nation-state does not have the right to govern itself in a manner that denigrates its own people. This has been established in international law. There seems to be a school of thought out there (some times classified as "liberal" when it is not even close) that says everyone has a right to their own opinion, all thoughts are equal, every one gets to play. Bullshit. No, we don't have to "respect" their differences, its not like "oh, how cute, they drive on the left side of the road", they are wrong and doing wrong things to their people. I'm not saying the USA is perfect, always right, or in any such manner a special experiment that is a "light unto the nations" or "city upon a hill", and I certainly don't subscribe to the conservative belief of American exceptionalism, codified in many text books (especially in the South). But when it comes to fundamental human rights there is a right, there is a wrong; for the most part we now have it right though Ferguson MO events and the states and groups fighting against LGBT civil rights shows we still have things to work on, while Russia and Middle Eastern and many African nations have a long way to go to get out of the "wrong" category and even close to "right". As ] would say "We're right. They're wrong".] (]) 20:36, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
:::Well, the ] was largely a ], and the West made no pretense of disinterest in fighting it. In some aspects, such as capitalism, the West was indeed too arrogant in lauding itself the victor, especially considering how the Chinese continue to write new chapters at the end of ''that'' story. But there should have been no Western ideal more central, more essential than the fundamental and '']'' human right of free expression, the source from which all other rights emanate. To me, a moral relativist argument like yours seems like it would be better if it were entirely amoral -- if it is not wrong for the Russian government to deny freedom of religion to its people, then how can it be wrong to interfere with that government's internal affairs? Either do not trouble me with morality and let me follow my whims however I wish, or allow me to encourage freedom wherever I find it. Despite that, any suggestion I can make here, or the West as a whole can make, has very little chance of having any impact - what matters practically is what the ''Ukrainians'' decide to do about their Misplaced Pages and their culture. ] (]) 20:28, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
::::Yes of course, by all means, on Misplaced Pages you can follow your whims AND encourage freedom. And the Russian government did not deny freedom of religion to its people. People are free to be as religious as they want to be and to attend church. This is something that was not allowed before. The accepted religion is Eastern Orthodox. I agree completely that Ukrainians need to decide their own future. In Ukraine and on Ukrainian Misplaced Pages.
----
Some time ago, I conducted an experiment. He wrote articles intentionally poorer quality than my on various topics. This article gave some Wikipedian and they published them. Never, no claims to these articles. The fact that the homophobes in Misplaced Pages identified me "chief propagandist" and want to block althoughbe for something. Therefore, meticulously searching mistakes provoke and so on. That is true. Many articles in the Ukrainian Misplaced Pages "hang" in the form unacceptable, with no reference at all, and I do translations from the English Misplaced Pages where neutrality is checked. But that homophobes in Ukrainian Vikipedeyi not want to accept reality, they do not want to see any articles about LGBT Misplaced Pages that they distorted their original homophobic "research." --] (]) 13:54, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
:You wrote poor articles on poorly known movies, on hardly known topics. Who cares about them? The community cares only about particularly popular, controversial topics, among which is LGBT one. It's no big deal that in this case people began to react on what you write. Do not make doubtful conclusions and try to realize, that nearly all edit wars and other things like that start around either very popular or very controversial topics. And nearly all of those wars are based on the absence of neutrality in someone's POV. Sometimes it's both opponents that lack neutrality. Here and now I affirm that it is you who lacks neutrality. Of course there are also others who do. But exactly you are the most concerned about it.
:Oh, and I need to mention that you don't do translations from English Misplaced Pages, you do ''machine translations'' from En-wiki. And exactly the low-quality texts you create cause a lot of complaint chatter throughout our wiki. And I'm glad that you've stopped creating those poor-quality pages and started to work on those you'd written already. That's a good decision. --]<span style="background:#FFFACD;border-radius:2em 0 1.6em;font-family:Verdana;">&nbsp;]&nbsp;</span> 21:29, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
:: It's your personal opinion. Injustice and I have proved by experiment. Also, homophobia, and agree with all LGBT Wikipedian, most of which you do not even know, because they know what will happen if bullinh Coming out. Latest your article (which you've done a bunch) contain only a cap (a few paragraphs) and a bunch of red links. So can hardly your advice and comments can be taken seriously. Since you are talking about individual cases in my articles as all my articles. And tsoum chapter, I raised the general problem of homophobia in the Ukrainian Misplaced Pages. --] (]) 16:51, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
:::A "well done article" is not about how many red links it contains. Shame on you, that you don't understand this, given that you are the author of nearly 800 articles. It's about how it is written - is it neutral? is it correct? is it credible? is it readable at all? What's wrong with one of my latest articles (])? and what's wrong with yours (]), nearly 90% of which people after ], cause it was unreadable? It was a machine translation. And you don't wanna understand what people tell you. That's all. --]<span style="background:#FFFACD;border-radius:2em 0 1.6em;font-family:Verdana;">&nbsp;]&nbsp;</span> 15:29, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:::: It looks like uk.wikipedia does not have a ].<sup></sup> Do you think it would help to set this up, so that editors would have an obvious place to dump a simple machine translation of an article until they do more work on it to make it understandable and reliable? ] (]) 17:30, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:::Here is a category, created by one of your sockpuppets: ]. It belongs to only one parent category, which is itself (!). Every article in this category has been created by you, doesn't have interwiki links, is about hardly significant (as for an encyclopedia) '''erotic gay adult manga''' and nearly every one of them contains a description, which is a metaphrase of the appropriate description which can be found in one of the links you give as references to this article. Which demonstrates that you don't understand the rules of Ukrainian Misplaced Pages AT ALL. And this also shows how much predetermined you are in this case as well.--]<span style="background:#FFFACD;border-radius:2em 0 1.6em;font-family:Verdana;">&nbsp;]&nbsp;</span> 15:56, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:::I checked this topic (I mean ] manga) in en-wiki and I think that you should take a look at the articles in the appropriate ]. And see how these articles should be written. Oh, I've forgotten, my advices cannot be taken seriously as I've been creating too short and too "red-linked" articles lately, right?--]<span style="background:#FFFACD;border-radius:2em 0 1.6em;font-family:Verdana;">&nbsp;]&nbsp;</span> 16:45, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
* Everyone please cite '''links''' to the articles you mention here, and preferably '''diffs''' () for particular edits or comments. This is especially important when we don't understand what you are saying. ] (]) 18:26, 21 November 2014 (UTC)


== ==
== Misplaced Pages as a part of the controversy ==


That doesn't sound good. From '']''. ] (]) 09:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
I'm not even going to try to hide what I'm talking about. There has recently been talk that, the longer the GamerGate page stays on Misplaced Pages, the more close Misplaced Pages gets to becoming a part of/source for the controversy. Has such a thing happened in the past, where Misplaced Pages gets dragged into a major controversy/heated issue/shitstorm? If not, do you have any idea on what might be done in future things with a heavily on-internet nature? --] ] 03:49, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
:This is not a "major controversy". Most people haven't even heard of it. All I see is a lot of ]. ] — ] 03:56, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
:Something about images of Muhammad, perhaps. Or the FBI-seal. ] (]) 06:18, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
::Yes. See ] for a partial list. However, I don't see the existance of a GamerGate article as being a major controversy. Certainly it has only had limited coverage so far. - ] (]) 06:44, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


:Being discussed at ]. ] (]) 10:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
::Isn't our GamerGate article longer than our WaterGate article (I believe I read that in the news)? The problem isn't covering the controversy, it's that WP has taken a side and editors have taken sides while still trying to claim their side is NPOV. The opening sentence is the first clue as it's never written that way by mainstream outlets that are covering the controversy and not a part of it. --] (]) 20:54, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
::Thanks! ] (]) 11:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
:::I'd personally be interested to hear how you'd rewrite that first sentence, along with a full explanation of how mainstream outlets do write it and how your proposed version is a better fit to reliable sources.--] (]) 21:11, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
::Also discussed at ] and ]. ] (]) 19:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
:::: Here's an ABC news Opinion piece: {{tq|For some, GamerGate is about the "ethics of gaming journalism," about the alleged collusion between video game developers and video game journalists, and about the response of gaming journalists and websites to such accusations. For others, GamerGate is about the misogynistic culture of video games, a culture that exists both in the sexist portrayal of women in video games and in the violent threats that have been made against women who have criticized this culture.}}. I think that is fair opening sentence that doesn't diminish or relegate any particular view (I don't have a preference for which is listed first as long as it doesn't marginalize anyone) - and I would put it as past tense (not that my view means much). Game journalism sources are more difficult to find as they are reluctant to critically cover themselves (that's not unique, mainstream media does the same thing when they are part of the story). GamerGate is not one single thing and there are plenty of "outside of gaming" sources that place it as left vs. right, male vs. female, libertarian vs. social progressives, millenial vs. genx. Our first sentence (the last time I read it) was a definitive "GamerGate is" statement which if it were so clear cut it would have ended in about a week - gamers haven't been known to really care about portrayals of women in games and it's not like "Depression Quest" was about to put "Grand Theft Auto" out of business. Here's the "Reason" piece that mentions Misplaced Pages.. Here's a Vox piece by Ezra Klein on the real reason I think it exploded and continues . I think it stays alive because it provides a platform for various elements to keep talking about their own agendas which isn't even related much to games anymore but #GamerGate is a much more hip way to attract attention. Whether it's a feminist platform or whether it's a "journalists are leftists" platform, both are keeping the hashtag alive so they aren't drowned into irrelevancy. Gamers, historically, could care less about either and are caught in the middle. That case is made in mainstream media but is drowned in the voices that are platforming. Two other interesting pieces by Cathy Young --] (]) 22:01, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
:::: P.S. The pinnacle interpretation of the Blizzard CEO condemning harassment as coming down hard on GamerGate was followed by {{tq|Then, at that same convention, Blizzard also announced a new game called Overwatch. One of the main characters in the team shooter game is named Widowmaker. She's a well-endowed assassin in a revealing, cleavage-emphasizing catsuit with a sexy French accent (and, of course, heels). Is this a problem? Only if you accept the false consumer choice that the entire industry can appeal to either the id of a male gamer audience or the progressive demands of feminists, but somehow not both.}} --] (]) 22:26, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::That opinion article you cite above is a beautiful example of cherry-picking sentences while ignoring the context, because that opinion article goes on to completely reject GamerGate's claims to be about "ethics in journalism" and, in fact, argues that {{tq|Thus, if the "ethics in gaming journalism" side of GamerGate wants objectivity in game reporting, then it is only through the efforts of the feminist side of debate that we have seen any real strides taken in that direction. In other words, Anita Sarkeesian and those who are similarly "printing what someone else does not want printed" about games, are not the enemy of "ethics in gaming journalism" - they are the best representatives of it.}} That is not an argument in support of the idea that GamerGate supporters care about ethics in journalism — rather, it is a direct repudiation of that idea.
:::::Citing three pieces from the same libertarian house organ does not help demonstrate how "mainstream sources" view the issue. Rather, it's instructive to examine the front-page article in '']'' on GamerGate, headlined thusly: . This is not an outlier, rather a prime example of the mainstream coverage of the movement. Others: from the ], from ], from ], etc. etc. etc.
:::::The vast, vast majority of reliable sources covering the issue focus largely, if not exclusively, on the issues of harassment and misogyny that were brought to the fore and give the "but ethics" claims only the most dismissive of mentions — usually discussing them as "purported," "ostensible" and otherwise pointing out that the movement never actually raised real ethics issues. Reliable sources, in general, adhere to the POV that "ethics" was a smokescreen for misogynistic harassment. Our article must reflect that that POV is predominant. ] (]) 09:07, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::The day Gawker Media becomes a widely used RS is the day I know Misplaced Pages is dead. And, the narrative is failing. The media witch hunts are being questioned. Even now, the chairman of the IGDA Puerto Rico is being thrown under the bus for calling out anti-gg. So let me ask you, how's the smokescreen going for the cronyism in journalism and the gaming industry? I'm not pro-gg, I just didn't drink the Kool-aid™. --] ] 09:20, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::Literally none of those links are to Gawker, so I have no idea what you're even talking about here. ] (]) 15:12, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::20k diverse set of people harassing women for 3+ months for no benefits, or journalism becoming more and more corrupt? I've been doxxed, my life potentially in danger for trying to question the narrative, by anti-gg. I find it harder and harder to stay neutral. And, in what magical way can Gawker Media, a network of awful blog sites/e-tabloids, be defended? --] ] 09:25, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::And as usual, the sources provided do not do any research, because it might break the narrative. --] ] 09:29, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::Being doxxed is bad, and it seems it happened to Fine Young Capitalists, along with death threats and DDOS. I'm not sure of the exact timeline, but it does somewhat give the lie to unambiguous readings of the situation as GG bad, anti-GG good. There are also facts which are widely known and not in dispute, but (possibly) not attributable to RS, that urge us to tread carefully. I would urge people to consider that the journalists who are reporting on this are basing their stories, by and large, on the type of sources we do not generally use (and with good reason), and drawing conclusions that we would not permit ourselves to draw.
::::::::I am even more concerned at the damage that this dispute is causing to the fabric of the community. Numerous instances of bitey behaviour have occurred, ramparts are thrown up and wording which would be summarily made neutral in any other circumstance is defended to the death.
::::::::The concept that "#GamerGate is not something Wikpedia covers at present" is not totally abhorrent to me, given the relatively minor nature of the dispute IRL (in real life), and the difficulty of covering an issue bearing where one side claims journalists are unethical, and for which the only RS are journalists.
::::::::All&nbsp;the&nbsp;best: '']&nbsp;]'',&nbsp;<small>16:42,&nbsp;22&nbsp;November&nbsp;2014&nbsp;(UTC).</small><br />
:::::::::I think there is much reason to be skeptical about this controversy. It all began at a one-day filming session for "GAME JAM", a TV reality show in which people reportedly tried to deliberately stoke controversy, such as asking Zoe Quinn 'sexist' questions.<sup></sup> I have seen no core philosophical innovation here by any party on any side, rather what smells like PR and social media maneuvering with obvious careerist motivations, whether to tear others down or build oneself up. Whether this is all some new sort of reality show filmed "in the wild" of the internet, or one that has escaped and gone feral, in no case is it worth Misplaced Pages getting polarized by these ever-shifting and ill-defined disputes. What we are ''challenged'' to do is to see that our own policies fairly and effectively. ] (]) 17:47, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::There are many stories where Misplaced Pages is front and center - however the gamergate controversy is not one of them. Misplaced Pages has only been mentioned tangentially in any coverage of gamergate - and its likely to stay that way unless the gamergaters turn their harassment campaigns against Wikipedians and wikipedians report them. the view of Misplaced Pages's involvement/importance in the issue is probably coming from the perspective of someone too deeply personally ensconced in the bubble in both aspects. -- ] 17:56, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
===Full protection of GamerGate===
If you didn't notice it Jimbo, the Gamergate controversy has been fully protected for 7 days by ] (which I actually don't disagree much but is kind of iffy) and then ] then extended this for '''5 months'''. Literally, 5 months of full protection. Because of edit warring. This is unprecedented and is in bad form and should be reverted back to the 7 days or unprotected all together. Nyttend's response to this is , basically saying that every time the page is protected, there's problem editing. Yeah, that justifies it. ] (]) 18:10, 22 November 2014 (UTC)


Jimbo, could I ask you please to respond to from {{u|Tryptofish}}?
== Congratulations ==
:... it's not just if you've edited about Israel-Palestine. It could be if you've edited anything about climate and fossil fuels, gender, immigration, vaccines, and of course, American politics. I doubt that they have the bandwidth to actually identify and harass every editor who could possibly be seen as editing information that goes against a MAGA POV, but they will likely find some easily identified targets, whom they will use to "set an example", as a way of instilling fear in our editing community. I fully expect that, in the coming months, {{u|Jimbo Wales}} will be hauled before a hostile and performative Congressional hearing, much in the manner of university presidents. I hope very much that he will be better prepared than ] was.
:Yeah, I know this is grim. But I believe the first step in dealing with this is to go into it with our eyes open, to know what we are dealing with, what motivates it. And, more than harming individual editors, the real objective of Heritage ''et al.'' is to instill fear in the rest of us. If we become too fearful to revert POV edits, they win. In a very real sense, we have to keep doing what we have been doing, and continue to be a reliable resource for NPOV information. --] (]) 18:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
] (]) 05:33, 10 January 2025 (UTC)


:Well, I fully agree that developments in terms of arguments and actions aimed at destroying trust in knowledge (and of course our specific interest, trust in Misplaced Pages) are extremely worrisome, particularly as I agree that for many who are doing it, the motive does appears to be the undermining of civic norms and democracy. I also agree with Tryptofish in a part that you didn't quote: "In a narrow sense, it's technically true that if you "out" yourself, there's no point in anyone else doing it. But once your identity is known, you become vulnerable to all of the kinds of real-life harassment that doxed people find themselves subjected to. It doesn't matter, in that regard, how they found out your identity." That's a sad balancing act that no Wikipedian should have to face.
Congratulations with the bestowal of a honorary title "doctor honoris causa" at the university of Maastricht, the Netherlands. ] (]) 13:44, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
:Thank you! I look forward to the visit!--] (]) 10:25, 21 November 2014 (UTC) :As a side note, I don't think that the reliability of the Heritage Foundation as a source is particularly related to these despicable actions. Whether they should be considered a reliable source in some matters is really unrelated to whether they hate us or not.--] (]) 14:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
::Congrats! Save the Norway ones for spring commencements ;). --] (]) 03:13, 22 November 2014 (UTC) ::Suddenly ] going to court to get user-data seems like the model of gentlemanly behavior. ] (]) 11:51, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
:::{{tq|That's a sad balancing act that no Wikipedian should have to face.}} Unfortunately, the scales have been inexorably slipping out from beneath the foundation's abilities or willingness to protect its volunteers for my entire wiki-career. There's no balancing force at work. The private equity community has made gadflies out of what we used to label reliable local news media; Alphabet and Meta are actively coopting precision, privacy, and the public domain, while attempting to minimize the effectiveness of good faith actors like Internet Archive. Now suddenly en.wikipedians are facing the sort of personal threats long experienced by volunteers at ru.wiki and zh.wiki. The forces now arrayed against free information don't need to be actively coordinating in order to rapidly bring us to 2+2=5 territory. Any established editor could reasonably see Western culture has been under relentless attack for a long time. Here comes the Heritage Foundation's leaks, hot off Heritage's bangup release of Project 2025, leaking articles through partisan outlets apparently intended to make it appear (in one case) the ADL's recent reliability downgrade at RSNP was anyone else's fault but the ADL's own writings and actions. The news of such activity appears to threaten the community members directly and personally. ] (]) 13:26, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 17:03, 11 January 2025

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    Albert Percy Godber

    Albert Percy Godber at his brass finishing lathe in the Petone railway workshops. A sign before him reads: `This is my busy day'
    "Looking down over a settlement with houses set amongst trees. The arm of a lake or harbour lies beyond, with a mountainous range on the far side. Photograph taken by Albert Percy Godber. Probably taken at Queenstown, Godber having visited Lake Wakatipu and Queenstown in 1926"

    Happy New Year Jimbo!!! I hope all is well with you and your team.

    Could you or your page watchers help me with Draft:Albert Percy Godber? The draft has been declined and tagged up. It was then deleted years ago. I had it restored today after I came across one of his photos. I think he and his photography are fascinating for capturing aspects of New Zealand's transportation and industrial history. His work is in museum and library collections. At least one of his photographs has been used in a book. He photographed Maori sites.

    "Phyllis Mary Godber wearing a Maori cloak, holding a taiaha, standing beside a collection of Maori carvings, including two fire-screens, carved by her father Albert Percy Godber

    I'm sorry I haven't been able to work the draft up enough to get it admitted to mainspace. It does make me wonder about what we do and don't include, our notability criteria, Articles for Creation (AfC) process, and collaborative ethos. Thanks so much for any help or guidance you can offer! Have a great 2025 and beyond. Thanks again. FloridaArmy (talk) 17:57, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

    If Godber is not WP:NOTABLE, which is what the draft reviewers say, then Wikipedians can't fix that. Polygnotus (talk) 09:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
    user:Polygnotus is he "notable" and should we have an entry on him? FloridaArmy (talk) 17:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
    I dunno, but User:Sulfurboy wrote that the draft did not show significant coverage about the subject in published, reliable, secondary sources that are independent of the subject at that point. Polygnotus (talk) 19:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
    "Godber family outside their house 'Railway Whare' at 23 Bay Street, Petone, circa 1906. From left to right: Albert Percy Godber, Mary Ann Godber, Laura Godber, Phyllis and William. Photograph taken by Albert Percy Godber"
    And this a request to revisit his finding. We have a photographer from more than 100 years ago who documented areas of New Zealand's North Island. We have his work in a National Library collection. We have his work discussed as iconic for one of his Maori related photographs. We have his work revisited in a 2018 exhibition. We have descriptions of him related to his photographs, his career, and we have the photos themselves documenting the areas industries, sites, infrastructure from more than 100 years ago. If I was satisfied with the previous conclusions I would not be here. So I ask again, should we have an entry on this subject? Should we just attribute his photos where we use them to an unlinked name with no explanation or discussion of who he was? I think the answer is clear, and I wanted to hear Jimbo's opinion. I am aware of what was previously stated. Years have passed and I believe it's time to reevaluate and consider. I also think it's worth reflecting on our article creations processes more generally and how we apply our conception of "notability". FloridaArmy (talk) 23:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Godber's photographs include "views of the Hutt Valley including large numbers of cars traveling to Trentham Racecourse, and the Hutt River. Another group of images relate to a holiday at the Mendip Hills Homestead in Canterbury, New Zealand with scenes of farm life, including haymaking, merino sheep, and farm buildings. During their stay in the South Island Godber also took photographs of Dunedin (including the Ross Reservoir, Otago Boys' High School, Seacliff Mental Hospital, the 1926 Dunedin Exhibition, and the Hillside Railway Workshops); Invercargill (including the Invercargill Railway Workshops); Stewart Island, Moeraki, Tuatapere, Waiau River, Oamaru and Port Chalmers. Various railway stations in Canterbury and Otago, the Burnside Iron Mills, and the Rosslyn Mills. Godber was a volunteer fireman with the Petone Fire Brigade with the album including views of the building, groups of firemen, fire engines and other fire fighting equipment, and a building in Petone damaged by fire. In his work with New Zealand Railways, mainly at the Petone Railway Workshops, he took interior photographs of various buildings, including the Machine Shop and finishing benches, the engine room, lathes, boilers, and fitting shops. He also took photographs of many of the steam engines that were built and worked on at the workshops. One scene shows a group of men watching a fight. Many images show his interest in logging railways, particularly in the Piha, Karekare, Anawhata area. Scenes of logging camps, various methods of transporting logs including bullock teams, logging trains, and dams created and then tripped to send logs down by river, and timber mills. Other topics covered in Godber's photographs are scenes at Maori marae and meeting houses, with some of the people identified; Maori carving and rafter designs; beekeeping, and gold mining." FloridaArmy (talk) 23:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
    • It's hard to choose which photos to share. Historic views areas, industries, bridges, natural features, railways and bridges, crafts. Here's a link to his photos on Misplaced Pages Commons. Many already illustrate our entries on various subjects. FloridaArmy (talk) 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
    If you really want to help him, get a couple stories published about him in newspapers. Notability here will follow. Carrite (talk) 01:23, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

    Just wanted to say

    You have created something valuable to everyone on the Internet. I'm sure you get this a lot, but thank you.
    It may sound weird, but Misplaced Pages has helped me through some tough times. We can never thank you enough for this sometimes infighting, sometimes peaceful, sometimes divided, but always united community You are the backbone of the cabal of editors thriving community that is Misplaced Pages. I wish I could give you a BarnMilkyWay but no one's come up with that, apparently. (3OpenEyes's talk page. Say hi!) | (PS: Have a good day) 00:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

    Requests for comment/Severe Problems in hewiki

    For the interested. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:58, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

    Summary: This document intends to show the problematic situation in Hebrew Misplaced Pages (hewiki), and provide evidence that it has been overtaken by a group of mostly religious and nationalist editors, who prevent others from achieving higher permissions while promoting their own allies. –Novem Linguae (talk) 22:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

    Happy new year

    Good days, Jimbo. I'd like to say that Chinese Misplaced Pages is introducing ARBCOM System currently, since Arbcom on this project, and in fact all the project is originated from the idea of yours, do you have any opinion for that? Any hints, advice or suggestions? -Lemonaka 15:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

    Scoop: Heritage Foundation plans to ‘identify and target’ Misplaced Pages editors

    That doesn't sound good. From The Forward. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

    Being discussed at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Heritage Foundation intending to "identify and target" editors. CMD (talk) 10:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
    Thanks! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
    Also discussed at Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel_articles_5/Evidence#Edit_request and Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Heritage_Foundation_planning_to_dox_Wikipedia_editors. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

    Jimbo, could I ask you please to respond to these concerns from Tryptofish?

    ... it's not just if you've edited about Israel-Palestine. It could be if you've edited anything about climate and fossil fuels, gender, immigration, vaccines, and of course, American politics. I doubt that they have the bandwidth to actually identify and harass every editor who could possibly be seen as editing information that goes against a MAGA POV, but they will likely find some easily identified targets, whom they will use to "set an example", as a way of instilling fear in our editing community. I fully expect that, in the coming months, Jimbo Wales will be hauled before a hostile and performative Congressional hearing, much in the manner of university presidents. I hope very much that he will be better prepared than Claudine Gay was.
    Yeah, I know this is grim. But I believe the first step in dealing with this is to go into it with our eyes open, to know what we are dealing with, what motivates it. And, more than harming individual editors, the real objective of Heritage et al. is to instill fear in the rest of us. If we become too fearful to revert POV edits, they win. In a very real sense, we have to keep doing what we have been doing, and continue to be a reliable resource for NPOV information. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

    Sita Bose (talk) 05:33, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    Well, I fully agree that developments in terms of arguments and actions aimed at destroying trust in knowledge (and of course our specific interest, trust in Misplaced Pages) are extremely worrisome, particularly as I agree that for many who are doing it, the motive does appears to be the undermining of civic norms and democracy. I also agree with Tryptofish in a part that you didn't quote: "In a narrow sense, it's technically true that if you "out" yourself, there's no point in anyone else doing it. But once your identity is known, you become vulnerable to all of the kinds of real-life harassment that doxed people find themselves subjected to. It doesn't matter, in that regard, how they found out your identity." That's a sad balancing act that no Wikipedian should have to face.
    As a side note, I don't think that the reliability of the Heritage Foundation as a source is particularly related to these despicable actions. Whether they should be considered a reliable source in some matters is really unrelated to whether they hate us or not.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
    Suddenly ANI going to court to get user-data seems like the model of gentlemanly behavior. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:51, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
    That's a sad balancing act that no Wikipedian should have to face. Unfortunately, the scales have been inexorably slipping out from beneath the foundation's abilities or willingness to protect its volunteers for my entire wiki-career. There's no balancing force at work. The private equity community has made gadflies out of what we used to label reliable local news media; Alphabet and Meta are actively coopting precision, privacy, and the public domain, while attempting to minimize the effectiveness of good faith actors like Internet Archive. Now suddenly en.wikipedians are facing the sort of personal threats long experienced by volunteers at ru.wiki and zh.wiki. The forces now arrayed against free information don't need to be actively coordinating in order to rapidly bring us to 2+2=5 territory. Any established editor could reasonably see Western culture has been under relentless attack for a long time. Here comes the Heritage Foundation's leaks, hot off Heritage's bangup release of Project 2025, leaking articles through partisan outlets apparently intended to make it appear (in one case) the ADL's recent reliability downgrade at RSNP was anyone else's fault but the ADL's own writings and actions. The news of such activity appears to threaten the community members directly and personally. BusterD (talk) 13:26, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
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