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{{tmbox|text=The purpose of this talk page is to host ongoing discussion among interested editors regarding the ] article itself. '''This page is not for discussing this talk page itself or any other meta-discussion; use the '']'' subpage for that.''' The subpage's creation is an Arbitration Enforcement action. Info on changes to the reference list are here: '']''.}}
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<div style='font-size:medium; text-align:center;'>'''Draft Article'''</div><p><div style='text-align:center;'>While this article is fully protected until editing disputes are resolved, there is a draft article which can be used to develop the content at ]. This talk page can be used to make suggestions to the draft article. Please note that the draft article may fall within the scope of ] and that edits made to the draft article might be subject to sanctions. Please see {{template|Gamergate sanctions}} for more info.</div>
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{{Press
| author = ]
| title = Twitter and the poisoning of online debate
| org = ]
| url = http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-29642313
| date = 16 October 2014
| quote = "I am not going into the rights and wrongs of Gamergate here - there is what looks like a factual account of this interminable saga on Misplaced Pages, although of course there have been disputes about its objectivity."
| author2 = David Jenkins
| title2 = 2014: Video gaming’s worst year ever
| org2 = ]
| url2 = http://metro.co.uk/2014/10/20/2014-video-gamings-worst-year-ever-4912543/
| date2 = 20 October 2014
| quote2 = "The Misplaced Pages entry is as good as any at explaining the basics, and shows how the whole movement is based on nothing but the ravings of a female developer’s ex-boyfriend and a level of misogyny that you’d find hard to credit existing in the Middle Ages, let alone the modern day." }}
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== RFC: Can an article be too biased in favor of near-universal sourcing of one side of an issue? (Gamergate controversy) ==
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| link3 = Talk:Gamergate (harassment campaign)/Archive 37#Requested move 15 May 2015
| date3 = May 15, 2015


| from4 = Gamergate controversy
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| destination4 = Gamergate
| result4 = Withdrawn
| link4 = Talk:Gamergate (harassment campaign)/Archive 45#Requested move 30 August 2015
| date4 = August 30, 2015


| from5 = Gamergate controversy
==Sanctions enforcement ==
| destination5 = Gamergate (sexist terrorism)
All articles related to the ]
| result5 = POINT close
| link5 = Talk:Gamergate (harassment campaign)/Archive 46#Requested move 19 September 2015
| date5 = September 19, 2015


| from6 = Gamergate controversy
Requests for enforcing sanctions may be made at: ]
| destination6 = Gamergate (harassment campaign)
| result6 = Moved
| link6 = Talk:Gamergate (harassment campaign)/Archive 60#Requested move 12 August 2021
| date6 = August 12, 2021


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== "Conspiracy theories in the United States" ==
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When was adding this category discussed? The only mention of it being labeled a conspiracy theory is not even about the movement itself, it's a single mention by Leigh Alexander, someone involved in the controversy saying some of it is based "on bizarre conspiracy theories", yet another attempt at controlling the narrative, albeit this one a sneaky one. This should be removed until a consensus is reached ] (]) 02:33, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
{{Press
*No, the core of GG is described as a conspiracy theory throughout the article's sources (and other reliable sources). I'll put some of the examples at the end to make this more readable, but basically, I think that it's uncontroversial -- obviously most GG sources ''allege'' a conspiracy (accusations of collision and conspiracy are at the core of what they feel are ethical breaches, after all); it's just that they dislike having that framed as 'conspiracy theory' as opposed to, I guess, 'conspiracy fact'. But either way, just a quick look over the article's sources show that most of the ones we're relying on for a general overview describe GG as being based around conspiracy theories (this is just from a random grab of some of them -- I'm not going to read every single one of the 40+ sources, but these are all clearly from reliable publications.) If anything, I think that these make it clear that we should cover the conspiracy-theory nature of the controversy in more detail rather than just via categorization:
|author=Alex Hern|url=https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jan/23/wikipedia-bans-editors-from-gender-related-articles-amid-gamergate-controversy|title=Misplaced Pages votes to ban some editors from gender-related articles|date=January 23, 2015|org=]
** The Verge's article describes "The conspiracy theory at the core of Gamergate..."
|author2=]|url2=https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/12/14/if-we-took-gamergate-harassment-seriously-pizzagate-might-never-have-happened/|date2=December 14, 2016|title2=If we took 'Gamergate' harassment seriously, 'Pizzagate' might never have happened|org2=]
** The quoted response from DiGRA likewise describes it as a conspiracy theory.
|author3=]|url3=http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/bitwise/2015/02/wikipedia_gamergate_scandal_how_a_bad_source_made_wikipedia_wrong_about.html|title3=The Misplaced Pages Ouroboros|org3=Slate|date3=February 5, 2015
** The article says: "And ultimately, those members of the gaming community who distrust the games press, have a really wonderful option: make the alternative. Instead of constructing strange conspiracy theories and flooding games sites with vitriolic comments, withdraw entirely."
|author4=Dabitch|url4=http://adland.tv/adnews/wikipedia-perpetual-native-ad-machine/255028968|title4=Misplaced Pages: the perpetual motion native ad machine|org4=Adland|date4=February 5, 2015
** The article says: "On one side are calls for reason and equality; on the other are the conspiracy theorists who fund a “documentary” intended to “shed light on the truth: that the SJWs have been the ones using manipulation and intimidation to push their agenda forward and that the mainstream media has accepted their story uncritically.”
|author5=Lauren C. Williams|url5=https://thinkprogress.org/wikipedia-wants-to-ban-feminists-from-editing-gamergate-articles-updated-6624e8987048#.6imluhnjw|org5=ThinkProgress|title5=Misplaced Pages Wants To Ban Feminists From Editing GamerGate Articles (Updated)|date5=January 26, 2015|archiveurl5=https://web.archive.org/web/20180929000042/https://thinkprogress.org/wikipedia-wants-to-ban-feminists-from-editing-gamergate-articles-updated-6624e8987048/|archivedate5=September 29, 2018
** The article: "...I was inundated with angry tweets from the movement’s indignant supporters. You don’t get it, they insisted. This is about ethics in journalism. They often pointed me to long, pretty involved conspiracy theories that seemed to claim, among other things, that various gaming websites were colluding to attack the “gamer” identity they held so dear, or that an indie developer named Zoe Quinn had slept her way to positive coverage."
|author6=Daniel Greenfield|url6=http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/263914/gawker-editor-gamergate-was-our-most-effective-daniel-greenfield|title6=Gawker Editor: Gamergate Was Our Most Effective Enemy|org6=]|date6=August 20, 2016|archiveurl6=https://archive.ph/1GbLp|archivedate6=21 August 2016
** describes GG as existing in a "hermetically sealed bubble of conspiracy nonsense".
:There's many more (even the article, which IIRC we're not using at the moment, makes repeated references to the movement being based around conspiracy theories, describing the earliest video as one that "...speculates on a feminist/social justice illuminati that are taking over gaming, and accused Quinn’s parent company, Silverstring Media, of being a part of that conspiracy.") Gamergate's accusations are described as conspiracy theories throughout most of the reliable sources that make up the basis of the current article. --] (]) 03:06, 23 November 2014 (UTC)


|author7 = Sam Wineburg and Nadav Ziv
{{hat|Hatting off-topic commentary about others and ], both of which violate ], keep it up and there will be sanctions. ] <small>]</small> 08:34, 23 November 2014 (UTC)}}
|title7 = Go ahead and use Misplaced Pages for research
Again, we have the spectacle of (a) an angry, outraged claim that Gamergate is wronged! This must not stand! This comes from ], who was most recently seen on his own talk page colluding with topic-banned DungeonSiege5whatever. This is followed by ] patiently, exhaustively, definitively, cataloging the many, many sources that compell the categorization. Next, the three remaining un-topic-banned editors and their admin will arrive to say, "but there is doubt! there might not be unanimity! Perhaps we cannot (alas! so sad!) say "conspiracy theory" -- we might say "possible conspiracy theory" or "alleged conspiracy theory as reported in misguided but reliable sources". And we will spend another five thousand words debating the point, wind up again with two or three treks to AN/I and a trip to discretionary sanctions with WikiTrout for all. In the end, as ] usefully captures, New York Magazine describes today at Misplaced Pages precisely: ''' conspiracy theories that seemed to claim, among other things ... that an indie developer named Zoe Quinn had slept her way to positive coverage.''' Enough. This has got to stop. ] (]) 03:20, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
|date7 = October 17, 2024
:Mark, I request that you cease this battleground and inflammatory behaviour. The disparity between Aquillion's and your response is telling, Aquillion looked at the sources, while Mark targeted editors who haven't even commented yet! ]] ''']''' 03:53, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
|org7 = ]
::Mark please calm down, it seems you are attacking people who have not participated in discussion yet. ] (]) 04:38, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
|url7 = https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/10/17/opinion/use-wikipedia-reliable-source/

|lang7 =
:::We aren't pals, Retartist: it's Dr. Bernstein to you, thank you, or Mark Bernstein if you're a member of the Society of Friends. Thanks. See following comment which applies equally to you.] (]) 04:47, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
|quote7 =
::::"I did not hit her! It’s not true! It’s bullshit! I did not! Oh, hi Mark." What? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡ °) ] (]) 05:01, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
|archiveurl7 =
::(edit conflict)The pattern has been unrelenting for days on end. It's really interesting that ] shows up a few minutes after another user, one who makes the same arguments in the same tone, is topic-banned, and complains just after asserting in the section above that he made one revert (I recall two) and that it's perfectly reasonable to change "False sexual allegations" to "Sexual allegations" because they probably did have sex! For crying out loud: do you folks have no decency? This pattern of edits has been unrelenting for days -- one BLP violation followed by an insinuation followed by a slow, slow retreat, fighting every inch of the way. Yes, I'm angry. (No reason to think starship's a sock: we all know they've been coordinating offsite and banned DS apparently defied the topic ban when issued to coordinate their offsite rendezvous). ] (]) 04:47, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
|archivedate7 = <!-- do not wikilink -->
::::Dr. {{ping|MarkBernstein}}, ''please'' '''stop''' with these insinuations about me. You {{green|recall}} me making two reverts... go and check! You claim that I argued that {{green|it's perfectly reasonable to change "False sexual allegations" to "Sexual allegations"}} - well I did not do that, I was only protesting the labeling of "highly disruptive" to well-meaning editors - I judged that from reading the talk page discussion which seemed reasonable. And just because {{green|they've been coordinating offsite}}, so I'm one of them? A meatpuppet? '''Nope, I am not.''' I am not even a gamer. I've made good contributions to Misplaced Pages... the paranoia leaves me extremely insulted. ]] ''']''' 08:03, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
|accessdate7 = October 18, 2024
:::You seem to be quite angry at this subject, I don't know why. How is me commenting on an user talk "colluding", you know these are serious claims right? That guy was topic-banned for NOTFORUM which is to say least, minor and banning for 90 days is fairly questionable, and I didn't know he was topic-banned when talking to him. In any case, those sources don't label the movement itself as a conpiracy theory, they just state SOME of their claims are, catogorizing the article as a conpiracy theoriy makes the whole controversy sound like a conspiracy theory when there are well documented concerns on the article itself like GameJournosPro and the sites in question acknowledging this, hence multiple policy changes and disclosures. In any case my concern is when was it discussed, when did an editor get approval to add this, it seems like a sneaky attempt at making this more one sided. ] (]) 05:39, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
|collapsed=no
::::Hey guys, just a suggestion, if you're getting angry just take some time out. Have a break. Go for a walk. Come back when you're a bit more settled. We all get frustrated from time to time but life is too short to get angry editing an article. ] (]) 07:41, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
{{hab}} }}
{{Top 25 Report|Oct 19 2014 (19th)}}

}}
If that many sources use variations on "conspiracy theory" wording that category should probably stay. I think there's less of a case to be made for the "Social Justice" category though. This article is ridiculously out of place in that category page, and that category seems really bizarre for this article. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 05:56, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
{{page views}}
:the relation is the "'''anti''' social justice" motivations and actions as described by as many sources. is "anti social justice" a cat? -- ] 15:33, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
{{section sizes}}

{{Refideas|state=collapsed
The US bit is totally wrong. There's been quite a bit of coverage from British sources, and a reasonable number of nonenglish articles. ]] 16:06, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
| {{cite book |last=Beyer |first=Jessica L. |chapter=Trolls and Hacktivists: Political Mobilization from Online Communities |date=2021 |title=The Oxford Handbook of Digital Media Sociology |editor-last=Rohlinger |editor-first=Deana A. |publisher=Oxford University Press |doi=10.1093/oxfordhb/9780197510636.013.47 |isbn=978-0-19-751063-6 |editor2-last=Sobieraj |editor2-first=Sarah |pages=417–442}}

| {{cite book |last=Condis |first=Megan |title=Gaming Masculinity: Trolls, Fake Geeks, and the Gendered Battle for Online Culture |year=2018 |publisher=University of Iowa Press |isbn=978-1-6093-8566-8 |pages=95–106 |jstor=j.ctv3dnq9f.12 |chapter=From #GamerGate to Donald Trump: Toxic Masculinity and the Politics of the Alt-Right}}
{{edit protected|answered=y}}
| {{cite news |last=Dewey |first=Caitlin |author-link=Caitlin Dewey |date=2016-02-17 |title=In the battle of Internet mobs vs. the law, the Internet mobs have won |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2016/02/17/in-the-battle-of-internet-mobs-vs-the-law-the-internet-mobs-have-won/ |url-status=live |work=] |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230710005803/https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2016/02/17/in-the-battle-of-internet-mobs-vs-the-law-the-internet-mobs-have-won/ |archive-date=2023-07-10 |access-date=2024-01-22 |url-access=limited}}
Remove Category:Conspiracy_theories_in_the_united_states and replace with Category:Conspiracy_theories based on the large coverage from nonUS sources and lack of commentry from them saying it's a US topic. ]] 16:16, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
| {{cite book |last1=Donovan |first1=Joan |last2=Dreyfuss |first2=Emily |last3=Friedberg |first3=Brian |title=Meme Wars: The Untold Story of the Online Battles Upending Democracy in America |date=2022 |publisher=Bloomsbury Publishing |location=New York |isbn=978-1-63-557864-5}}
:] '''Not done:''' please establish a ] for this alteration before using the {{tlx|edit protected}} template.<!-- Template:EP --> '''Oppose''' as ] doesn't exist, whereas ] does. — <span class="nowrap">&#123;&#123;U&#124;]&#125;&#125; <sup>(] • ] • ])</sup></span> 17:57, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
| {{cite book |last=Jones |first=Bethan |editor=Booth, Paul |title=A Companion to Media Fandom and Fan Studies |year=2018 |publisher=John Wiley & Sons |location=Hoboken, N.J. |isbn=978-1-1192-3716-7 |pages=415–429 |doi=10.1002/9781119237211.ch26 |chapter=#AskELJames, Ghostbusters, and #Gamergate: Digital Dislike and Damage Control |chapter-url=https://onlinelibrary-wiley-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/doi/epdf/10.1002/9781119237211.ch26 |chapter-format=PDF |chapter-url-access=registration |via=]}}
I meant Remove "Category:Conspiracy_theories_in_the_united_states" and replace with "Category:Conspiracy_theories" based on the large coverage from nonUS sources and lack of commentry from them saying it's a US topic. ]] 20:43, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
| {{cite book |last=Kidd |first=Dustin |title=Social Media Freaks: Digital Identity in the Network Society |date=2018 |publisher=Routledge |location=New York |isbn=978-0-4299-7691-9 |chapter=GamerGate: Gender Perspectives on Social Media}}
:Funny, I read it the same way as Technical 13. Halfhat, your proposal seems reasonable and has my support. ]] ''']''' 09:21, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
| {{cite book |last1=O'Donnell |first1=Jessica |title=Gamergate and Anti-Feminism in the Digital Age |date=2022 |publisher=Palgrave Macmillan |location=Cham |isbn=978-3-031-14057-0 |pages=179–222 |doi=10.1007/978-3-031-14057-0_6 |chapter=Changes Following Gamergate |chapter-url=https://link-springer-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/chapter/10.1007/978-3-031-14057-0_6 |chapter-url-access=registration |via=]}}
*'''support changing to broader "conspiracy theories" cat''' - i have never met a conspiracy theory that found an international boarder something it didnt want to hop and they nearly all end up with "international bankers" or "CIA and KGB". In this case we have the international scholar organization DIGRA based in Sweden and BMW based in Germany. Sarkeesian is a Canadian American and Quinn live(s)(d) in Canada. Yiannopoulos is British. There seems little that makes this limited to "United States". -- ] 13:14, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
| {{cite book |last1=O'Donnell |first1=Jessica |title=Gamergate and Anti-Feminism in the Digital Age |date=2022 |publisher=Palgrave Macmillan |location=Cham |isbn=978-3-031-14057-0 |pages=63–107 |doi=10.1007/978-3-031-14057-0_3 |chapter=Gamers and Gamergate |chapter-url=https://link-springer-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/chapter/10.1007/978-3-031-14057-0_3 |chapter-url-access=registration |via=]}}
:*'''Agree''' I'm not convinced the category is necessary, but if we are going to have it then the online nature of the movement precludes it from being strictly limited to the United States. ] (]) 18:54, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
| {{cite book |editor1-last=Reyman |editor1-first=Jessica |editor2-last=Sparby |editor2-first=Erika |title=Digital Ethics: Rhetoric and Responsibility in Online Aggression |date=2020 |publisher=Routledge |location=New York |series=Routledge Studies in Rhetoric and Communication |isbn=978-0-367-21795-2 |edition=1st |doi=10.4324/9780429266140 |s2cid=189982687}}

| {{cite book |last=Ruffino |first=Paolo |title=Future Gaming: Creative Interventions in Video Game Culture |date=2018 |publisher=Goldsmiths Press |location=London |isbn=978-1-90-689755-0 |pages=104–119 |chapter=GamerGate: Becoming Parasites to Gaming}}
: Am reopening this request, my initial requestion was misunderstood (which I accept the blame for), of the 3 replies since clarification all have agreed with the change, and they include users that generally don't. If this was premature sorry, I'm still new to this.. ]] 16:37, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
| {{cite journal |last=Salter |first=Michael |title=From Geek Masculinity to Gamergate: The Technological Rationality of Online Abuse |journal=Crime, Media, Culture |date=2018 |volume=14 |issue=2 |pages=247–264 |doi=10.1177/1741659017690893 |issn=1741-6604}}
:Ahh, I'm sorry, I misread it. So, you want it to be in {{Cl|Conspiracy theories}} instead of {{Cl|Conspiracy theories in the United States}}. My apologies. In the future, it is usually best to link to the category you want to change to avoid confusion. You can do this by either prefixing the category name with a colon (:) like <nowiki>]</nowiki> or you can use the {{Tl|Cl}} template like {{Tld|Cl|Conspiracy theories}}. Anyways, I have no objection to this change. — <span class="nowrap">&#123;&#123;U&#124;]&#125;&#125; <sup>(] • ] • ])</sup></span> 17:00, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
| {{cite book |last1=Veale |first1=Kevin |title=Gaming the Dynamics of Online Harassment |date=2020 |publisher=Palgrave Macmillan |location=Cham |isbn=978-3-030-60410-3 |pages=1–33 |doi=10.1007/978-3-030-60410-3_1 |chapter=Introduction: The Breadth of Harassment Culture and Contextualising Gamergate |chapter-url=https://link-springer-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/content/pdf/10.1007/978-3-030-60410-3_1 |chapter-format=PDF |chapter-url-access=registration |via=]}}
::{{done}} &mdash;&nbsp;Martin <small>(]&nbsp;·&nbsp;])</small> 20:32, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
| {{cite book |last1=Wilson |first1=Katie |editor1-last=Booth |editor1-first=Paul |title=A Companion to Media Fandom and Fan Studies |date=2018 |publisher=John Wiley & Sons |location=Hoboken, N.J. |isbn=978-1-119-23721-1 |pages=431–445 |doi=10.1002/9781119237211.ch27 |chapter=Red Pillers, Sad Puppies, and Gamergaters |chapter-url=https://onlinelibrary-wiley-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/doi/epdf/10.1002/9781119237211.ch27 |chapter-format=PDF |chapter-url-access=registration |via=]}}

| {{cite book |last1=Zuckerberg |first1=Donna |title=Not All Dead White Men: Classics and Misogyny in the Digital Age |date=2018 |publisher=Harvard University Press |isbn=978-0-6749-8982-5 |pages=}}
== Reversion of Halfhat's recent edits in the draft ==
}}

{{User:MiszaBot/config
I made (which in retrospect could probably have been less wholesale) because the effect is to remove or downplay references to sexism and misogyny in the characterisation of certain harassment in the article's lead. This is already well attested in the sources and discussed in detail in the body of the article. I would ask all editors, at this well developed stage of editing, to please not make such drastic changes without careful consideration of the facts we are describing. --] 14:13, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
|archiveheader = {{Aan}}
:The intent was to make it more clinical and less emotional. I'll review what I've done to see if I went about it the right way. ]] 14:42, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
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::What significant facts did I remove? They seemed to me to convey little other than opinion and emotion, maybe removal was wrong, I probably should have came up with a different wording. ]] 14:45, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
|counter = 62
:::I think the problem is these . If we want to be more neutral in the wording I think we can do better then just deleting the wording (something like '''widely seen as'' or ''reported as'' etc...) — ] (]) 14:50, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
|minthreadsleft = 4
::::Yeah, I wasn't too sure what actual information they were trying to convey. ]] 14:52, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
|algo = old(30d)
:::::Trying to describe the nature of the harassment (i.e. gender based threats and insults, with some anti-feminist rhetoric thrown in.) — ] (]) 15:01, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
|archive = Talk:Gamergate (harassment campaign)/Archive %(counter)d

}}{{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn
:While we talk this out would you be willing to cut the word severe? I don't see how this at all benefits the conveying of the facts? ]] 15:04, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
|target=/Archive index |mask=/Archive <#> |leading_zeros=0 |indexhere=yes
::I'm more attached to ''severe'' then I am to ''misogynistic''. The level of harassment is notable (it's probably the only reason this article is on Misplaced Pages.) I think we can do better then ''misogynistic'' though, I read it as a description of the type of harassment, but I realize others read it as a description of intent. — ] (]) 15:11, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
}}
:::I'd suggest using gendered. My problem with severe is that it sounds like it's saying how bad it is. We could use weasel words of course. ]] 15:29, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
__TOC__
::::only if we toss out what all of the reliable sources have determined. We are not going to do that. -- ] 15:34, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
::::I was going to suggest ''gender-based''. Instead of ''severe'' we could use something like {{blue|Quinn was then subjected to large amount of gender-based harassment ...}}, but I think we can just go with ''severe'' or ''intense'' I believe either one is used in our sources. For the second edit was thinking we could rewrite {{blue|Often expressly anti-feminist and frequently misogynistic, these attacks heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community.}} with {{blue|These attacks often include anti-feminist and misogynistic rhetoric and have heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community.}}? Trying to avoid assigning motives and stick to the contents of the attacks. Not sure about the word ''rhetoric'' though, I also thought ''sentiment'' might work. Or we could weasel word it a bit and say something like {{blue|These attacks often include what is reported as ...}}, but I'm not a big fan of that. — ] (]) 15:37, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::Why would we not cover the motives when the reliable sources do? -- ] 15:40, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::I'm actually fine with it as-is. Just trying to suggest alternative wording that I'd also find acceptable. — ] (]) 15:42, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::For one thing I'm not sure the various new articles really have much weight on the complex issue of intent and motives. It's not been studied in a court of law or widely accepted psychology/sociology papers yet. The words they use are not always suitable for us because they can be more emotionally loaded, this can be used to convey opinion. ]] 16:13, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::A reason to consider not making a judgement on the motives is because we're trying to write a neutral encyclopedia article on the topic. ] (]) 18:20, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::a ] at Misplaced Pages is one that presents what the reliable sources have determined about the subject. So do you have actually policy based rationale? -- ] 18:47, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::I'm not new here. You want to include reliable source opinion on the topic, others are arguing, perhaps rightly and perhaps not, that the opinion from reliable sources be left out for neutrality reasons. If that's unreasonable, it's on you to explain why that opinion deserves to be reflected instead of a simple neutral accounting. ] (]) 18:52, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::If you are not new here, i dont understand why you keep attempting to push the position that "well, even though all of the reliable sources say X, we should say Y instead." ] / ] / ] are all pretty damn clear that that is NOT what we do and NOT how ''we'' achieve "]". Unless you have some sekrit content policy that supports your vision, its not gonna happen and you need to stop wasting everyone's time and all these poor poor pixels. -- ] 19:45, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

{{hat|These Hitler comparisons need to stop; it's not productive and is inflammatory. Either quit or be sanctioned. ] <small>]</small> 07:11, 26 November 2014 (UTC)}}
::::::::::Because you are wrong. We don't agree with people. Basically all RSes say Hitler was evil, but we do not. ]] 20:11, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::back to the "but Hitler!" ? -- ] 21:14, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::::Back to dismissing valid argument because of the frequency they're used instead of addressing the points? ]] 12:08, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::::::"but Hitler" is not a valid argument. -- ] 14:17, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::There is no reason that arguments that make reference to Hitler are necessarily invalid. ]] 14:29, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::]. -- ] 16:20, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::In most cases Godwin's law applies in the sense that the discussion would be circling the drain, but the application here is to compare how we (WP) have covered other topics where there is a clear public opinion that swings one way, and note the tone and neutrality that those articles take - no article on a controversial or hated figure or group comes out speaking of the public opinion's of a person/group in WP's voice, but instead clearly assigning where the public opinion comes from, or holding off on criticizing the group/person until later in the article, sourcing all that. Take for example ], which the first two sentences immediately speak to the negative impression it has but using language to clearly establisht that that is how the public sees it and not as a fact (eg we don't say "The church is a hate group" but instead "The church is widely described as a hate group", keeping WP impartial to the matter). The same logic and approach must apply here. --] (]) 16:30, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::You clearly have no understanding of Godwin's Law. Firstly it says someone will make a Nazi comparison (e.g. "That's what Hitler thought"), not that all arguments that refer to Hitler (and certainly not his article) are invalid. And so my argument has not been refuted. ]] 16:46, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::I'm not sure why you're telling me I'm trying to push any position, as I'm not the one trying to make a value judgement on any issue here. Everything you've linked appears to agree with me, you don't seem to understand what I'm saying (since you think I want to go against the sources, which I do not), and your tone here is not helpful or collaborative in nature. ] (]) 20:33, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::I would support your suggestions. {{blue|Quinn was then subjected to large amount of gender-based harassment ...}} is not perfect though, "gender-based harassment" is a little ambiguous, but improvement not perfection. How about "harassment targeting her gender"? I don't notice any issues with {{blue|These attacks often include anti-feminist and misogynistic rhetoric and have heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community.}}
::::::Alright, lets wait for a bit more feedback as I suppose this will be contentions. I'm still a little tepid about "gender-based harassment", I agree it seems ambiguous and I don't want to white-wash or downplay anything. — ] (]) 17:25, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::Yeah it's tough to get the balance between not downplaying, and not making them overly loaded. ]] 18:07, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
I believe that gender based harassment would be appropriate. The article should be focused, not based on strong non-neutral wording. ] (]) 19:13, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
:please provide sources that call this "gender based harassment" that are on an equivalent reliability and number as those that use "misogynistic harassment" - otherwise this is going no where. -- ] 19:32, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
::Yeah, I'm pretty luke-warm on the 'gender-based harassment' phrasing (I know I suggested it..) We'd probably be violating ] by using it, and I think we're best leaving it as-is unless someone can come up with better phrasing. If NPOV is a concern then we can always assign the view to the sources instead. I would be interested in feedback for the second suggestion, or maybe that's best left to another section. — ] (]) 19:58, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
::We're not limited to using the exact phrasing from the sources. ]] 20:39, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
:::While we are not "limited" to the language of the sources, when the sources are OVERWHELMINGLY utilizing particular terminology and similarly overwhelmingly NOT using a particular other terminology, there needs to be some great rationale for us to use the alternative, and some bogus hand wave at "neutrality" is not that rationale - NPOV does not in any way promote "when all of the sources view something as X, we should present it as Y". -- ] 21:07, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
::::That's a total strawman. The problem with that term is that it is loaded and implies opinion. ]] 21:27, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::Sources? -- ] 21:57, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

I suggest that we stay with the original wording, which is a correct summary of the overwhelming opinion of reliable sources, as expressed in the body of the article. --] 01:46, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
:The problem is that while "severe" harassment can certainly be supported without quotes (we have plenty of reliable documented facts about this), "misogynistic" can't be - that's how its been characterized widely, certainly, but it's also an observation; stating it factually is heading into "weasel word" territory where we would normally need a source to be clear about that, but we really don't want to flood the lead with sources again. The current wording {{green|Quinn was then subjected to severe misogynistic harassment, including false accusations that the relationship had led to positive coverage of Quinn's game. A number of gaming industry members supportive of Quinn were also subjected to harassment, threats of violence, and the malicious broadcasting of personally identifiable information about them (doxxing); some of them fled their homes. The targets were mostly women, and included Quinn, feminist media critic Anita Sarkeesian, and indie game developer Brianna Wu.}} can be restated without losing anything but staying in a better impartial WP voice for the lead (where we want to avoid anything close to that) with {{green|Quinn was then was falsely accused of using her relationship to receive positive coverage of her game. Simultaneously, she and a number of gaming industry members that supported here against these claims were the subject of a severe harassment campaign by online users under the Gamergate banner, including threats of violence and the malicious broadcasting of personally identifiable information about them (doxxing), and forced some to flee their homes. The targets of this harassment were mostly female, including Quinn, feminist media critic Anita Sarkeesian, and indie game developer Brianna Wu, leading the industry and international media to broadly condemn the harassment attacks as sexist and misogynistic.}} Note that this clearly states where what we would consider "weasel words" originate from which can clearly be ID'd in the body with sources. All the same info and key words are there, but just where there can be slippage into opinion, it's clear where it came from. --] (]) 02:03, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

::Gamergate is rooted in misogyny, as borne out by reliable sources. We can't move away from that. ] (]) 02:22, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
:::That is the press's wide opinion, but only opinion. There is no factual evidence of what started GG. --] (]) 02:24, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

::::Verifiability, not truth. The press says it is rooted in misogyny, we report what they say. ] (]) 03:04, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::"Gamergate is misogynistic" and "Gamergate is claimed to by misogynistic" are both verified statements, but one is impartial while the other speaks something that is a clear opinion in WP's voice. --] (]) 03:46, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::Once again, our articles reflect the mainstream, predominant viewpoint of reliable sources and relegate fringe viewpoints to lesser prominence, if any. It is indisputable that the mainstream, predominant viewpoint about Gamergate is that it's rooted in misogyny. Our article '''must''' reflect that truth. ] (]) 03:53, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::We reflect balance and weight, but not tone and emotion as we are an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. --] (]) 03:56, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::It is a fact, ] in reliable sources, not a "tone" or "emotion," that Gamergate was rooted in misogyny. ] (]) 04:19, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::Alleging that Gamergate is rooted in misogyny is using a ] and requires attribution to the source(s). ] (]) 04:57, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::No, it's not contentious — it's the effectively-unanimous conclusion of reliable sources. Views to the contrary are, at this point, ]. ] (]) 05:01, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::Views to the contrary were never part of my argument so ] is not in play here. This is about '''how''' we ascribe the misogynist label. If RS weren't nearly unanimous we would avoid usage altogether due to contentious labeling (and it is contentious considering "bigot" is listed as a prime example - I doubt anyone would argue that "misogyny" doesn't fall under the umbrella of bigotry). However since sources are widespread we can use it but it necessitates in-text attribution per the ]. ] (]) 07:25, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::::Are you really sure that "The New York Times, The Guardian, The Irish Times, Newsweek, Time, The New Yorker, The Washington Post, The LA Times, Gawker, Salon,Le Monde, On The Media, Australian Broadcast Company, BBC, CNN, NPR, The Hindu, Forbes, SBS, Boston Globe, Fast Company, Huffington Post, Ars Technica, ESPN, KQED, Mother Jones, Fortune, Vox, Inside Higher Ed, The Oregonian, The Journal Times, The Independent, The Telegraph, The International Business Times and every other major media identify gamergate as misogynistic. CHS says its just boys being boys. " is better? -- ] 13:04, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::::I can't help but say that I don't think identify is a good choice of word. ]] 16:57, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::::::"insinuate"? "suggest"? "propose"? "liken"? "hint"? "theorize"? or is there some other watered-down term you would propose? -- ] 17:10, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::Or we could follow policy and say something like stated. ]] 17:14, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::::No need for a laundry list. The point is it's better to write "''The media has described Gamergate as misognyistic''" opposed to "''Gamergate '''is''' misogynistic''". In the latter, Misplaced Pages would be taking the side of a contentious, albeit popular opinion, while the former we would be describing it and remain more ]. ] (]) 17:41, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::::::Without any actual sourcing indicating gamergate is '''not''' misogynistic, ] we follow the sources and do not willy wolly around the overwhelming evidence and interpretation. ] -- ] 17:46, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::Is there any RSs that say Hitler is '''not''' evil? But that doesn't mean Misplaced Pages should share the opinion he is. ]] 18:15, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::Yeah, that's a bogus argument. We might be able to say, factually, "the pattern of harassment is misogynistic" in WP's voice, because of the clear evidence it targetted women, and in a hostile manner, but there is no evidence beyond the claims made by the press that GG is misogynistic - no one has connected which persons did the harassing and if these people were truly misogynistic. It's an opinion, a very possible truth, but one we can't report as fact. --] (]) 18:18, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::"We took Gamergate into the lab where it registered 137 on the Lépine Misogyny Scale". -- ] 18:36, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::::That argument works against you. It agrees with it being opinion and that it should not be said in Misplaced Pages's voice.]] 18:40, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::It doesn't matter if the people were. The actions were, and those actions were associated with Gamergate. The RS's have noted this and so can wikipedia. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 18:30, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::: Additionally: "the actions were misogynistic" is in RSs, so it is verifiable. No one can verify whether particular people are "truly misogynistic" in this case. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 18:33, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::No, that's not true. The harassment was done by people under the GG hashtag/banner. At the same time, we have a number of people that are using the GG hashtag/banner to try to talk about ethics. There is no evidence that all or any the harassers are the same people talking about ethics, given the sourceable fact that there are groups that are ''not'' connected to the ethics discussions using GG to harassment for the purposes of just stirring the pot. We can say, factually, the actions under the GG banner are misogynistic harassment, but it is not acceptable as a neutral entity to make the leap of logical that the GG movement, or all GG members, are misogynistic; we can definitely put in the bulk of sourcing that has the popular opinion of that nature (itself which leads to the whole "but ethics!" complaints), but in WP's voice we cannot take the opinionated stance that GG the movement or the people involved are misogynistic; we will absolutely reflect that opinion as it is weighted heavily by the sources, but we must keep it out of WP's voice.
:::::::::::::::::Yes, the actions are verifyable to a point we could probably safely call them "misogynistic" in WP's, but as you just said, there is no way to verify which people are, and thus we absolutely cannot make that jump per WP:V. --] (]) 18:39, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::When all you got as a "movement" is a hashtag, you get all that is done under your name. And the only thing that resulted in any coverage was the misogynistic actions. -- ] 18:42, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::It is not appropriate to trivialize how GG is described as a movement by some high quality RS, like Time, the Age, and the Washington Post (whereas some other sources do question if it is a movement, but still acknowledge that it might be a movement, and we can add their complaints to that effect). It is clearly defined as a movement throughout RSes, even though we will include all the criticism that its lack of organization, goals, and its tactics and its apparent ties to harassment to beg if it really is a movement. --] (]) 22:45, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::::: we have been through this. for every instance where the source uses it, vaguely, with hesitation and qualification because there is not a better word, there are several sources that specifically call it out as not anything like an actual movement. -- ] 00:31, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::::::Which means we should call it a movement, and then include the strong criticism against that as appropriate, just like Westboro BC is called a church or Scientology is called a religion. To refuse to call it a movement is twisting the sources against an impartial view of the matter. --] (]) 01:34, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
Hitler is evil/Did evil things is easy to find RSs for, doesn't mean Misplaced Pages should say those thngs. ]] 18:43, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
:What is your obsession with Hitler? -- ] 18:52, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
::It's just the useful article to use as an example. (BTW I messed up the formatting and can't remember what I was originally responding to so I moved it all the way back) ]] 20:49, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
:::I dont really see how. A of that has been the of vs a of where the . -- ] 21:02, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
::::Exactly because of the current , we should not be reporting the media's '''opinions as factual'''. Yes, we still should report the media's opinions because they are reliable sources, as long as we qualify them as opinions. ]] ''']''' 00:05, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
{{hab}}

Is there any objection, or suggestion for improvement, to Strongjam's suggestion of replacing, {{blue|Often expressly anti-feminist and frequently misogynistic, these attacks heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community.}} with {{blue|These attacks often include anti-feminist and misogynistic rhetoric and have heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community.}}? I support it because it reads much less loaded and more encyclopaedic, and puts more emphasis on the facts. ]] 16:57, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
:'''Support''' - yes, it sounds better, thank you. ]] ''']''' 23:59, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - Unnecessary adverbs, sounds fine without them. ] (]) 00:09, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
:I've given it a go in the draft article. I think it's fairly non-controversial, but no hurt feelings if it's reverted and needs more discussion. — ] (]) 01:40, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
::I think a better wording from "These attacks often include anti-feminist and misogynistic rhetoric and have heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community." would be "These attacks often include both anti-feminist and misogynistic rhetoric, with the direct result being heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny as it exists in the gaming community."] (]) 08:40, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

== New Businessweek Article ==

Focuses more on Sarkeesian (so this can filter into her article and the Tropes vs Women one) but there might be a few details around Sarkeesian's harassment to be included. Note that this also includes EA's statement on the harassment (they agree with ESA's statement about), but notes even this late in the event that few other major publishers have commented on the matter (I believe a few other sources have noted the lack of voice from the AAA pubs on the entire situation). --] (]) 15:38, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
:I've ] some details for the threats to the draft, and dropped that "Sarkeesian reported ..." bit, we don't have to weasel word it. — ] (]) 16:19, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
::I don't have an objection to the change, but I don't think it qualifies as weasel words. Aren't they when you say someone thinks/says something without saying who (or similar). Again I'm not arguing with the change. ]] 16:41, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
:::Hmm, yeah you're probably right, it's attributed so not really weasel words. Just seems odd to attributed it to the victim, almost an expression of doubt I guess? Especially when we consider the "false flag" claims we cover in the next section — ] (]) 16:51, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
::::I think the important thing here is what is nicer to read. As long as you don't say something like "claimed" it should be okay, but I see where you are coming from with the context of falseflag claims. ]] 16:54, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

== Citations in the Lede ==

In regards to this ]. I remember this was discussed earlier, and I believe the consensus was that the citations weren't needed. Generally per ] the lede would have redundant citations from the body, but on controversial statements may need citations (on a case-by-case basis.) Are there any particular claims here that need citations? I don't think '''all''' of them do, but there may be a few. — ] (]) 17:49, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
:there is not a fucking thing about GG or the article that is not "controversial" - source every damn statement and bypass stupid pointless arguments about sourcing and leave the discussions to be about actually meaningful things like content. -- ] 17:54, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
::''sigh'' you're probably right. There are lots of statements that shouldn't be controversial, but we get constant discussions about them. If we cited every source that says it's concerns misogyny and sexism it would be a very long list (didn't you write a list for that in the talk page yesterday?) — ] (]) 17:58, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
For reference previous discussions on this topic ]. General consensus at the time seems to be only cite direct quotes. Of course ]. I'm not adverse to some citations, but I don't think we necessarily need to pile it on. — ] (]) 18:15, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

As per ] guidelines, the Gamergate controversy article should have ''the lead should be written in a clear, accessible style with a '''neutral''' point of view'' and the lead should be sourced as ''The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus.'' And as far as I know there isn't any editorial consensus. '' '''Complex, current, or controversial subjects may require many citations'''; others, few or none. The presence of citations in the introduction is neither required in every article '''nor prohibited in any article'''.''
Since the topic is controversial, the lead should be extremely well sourced with reliable sourced. --] (]) 18:16, 26 November 2014 (UTC) — Added on behalf of {{ping|Zakkarum}} by ] (]) 19:01, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

No, we do not need citations in the lead, certainly not to satisfiy the urges of every Tom, Dick, and Naysayer that wanders by. We had to hash this out years ago at ], when the article was under siege by ]; at one point the article had a citation right on the "born in Honolulu" line of paragraph 1, til saner heads prevailed. We don't need lead citations for this article either, as long as what is said in the lead IS cited and supported in the body. ] (]) 19:32, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
: Per ], citations are to be managed by a consensus of editors and whether the conduct is controversial or not to garner whether to put one or not. Specifically, the regards about misoginy and the guise of harassment should be sourced, the Zoe Quinn remarks, mostly women remarks and the threats to the 'gamer' identity. Otherwise, rest can stay without citations. ] (]) 19:35, 26 November 2014 (UTC)


==Sanctions enforcement==
I think the lede present w/o cite works (give or take), nearly all the claims are to a degree reasonably found by reviewing the appropriately named sections. It would be more a problem if we did not have a reasonable organization at the current time so that a claim made in the lede could not be easily figured out. "cn" tags in the lede should not be used to challenge the points made in that given the current state of the article (though wording improvement for impartiality will help but that's a different discussion). --] (]) 20:38, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
<!-- START PIN -->{{Pin message|}}<!-- ] 12:00, 26 April 2035 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1840363256}}<!-- END PIN -->
All articles related to the ].


Requests for enforcing sanctions may be made at: ].
== Recent IDGA "scandal" ==


<!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) ] (UTC)</small>


== They/them pronoun confusion ==
DigiTimes reported on the recent scandal that IGDA endorsed "A Twitter tool to block some of the worst offenders in the recent wave of harassment", which "has been criticized for its crude algorithm" and "generates a high number of false positives".


As someone who is not familiar with gamergate, there are some parts of the article which are confusing because of how Quinn's they/them pronouns are used.
They also report on the fears of the developers:
The lead currently contains the following sentence:


Gamergate began with an August 2014 blog entry called "The Zoe Post" by Quinn's ex-boyfriend, which falsely insinuated that Quinn had received a favorable review because of <u>their</u> sexual relationship with a games journalist.
'However, the most significant impact is being felt in the games development community itself. Several developers have already come forward to express their concerns that being incorrectly branded for actions they have not committed could have long lasting, if not career ending, consequences. And these fears could have merit. Even before IGDA lent its support to the block list, some developers had floated the idea that the list could be used to perform "background checks" on future job applicants. Also back in October, Ernest W Adams, the founder of IGDA notably tweeted, "If you're an indie developer and you are supporting #GamerGate, watch what you say. Your future business is at stake."'


The sentence gives the impression that it's about a sexual relationship between Quinn, Quinn's ex-boyfried, and a games journalist. I know it's because Quinn's pronouns are they/them but their pronouns haven't been mentioned yet in the text.
Furthermore, they mention the "Give Voice to the Voiceless" campaign (probably less interesting?).
] (]) 23:36, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
Add this to the article. --] (]) 23:42, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
:A tool that never worked and nobody used and was covered only by a niche press. Given the extreme length of the article already, ]? -- ] 01:32, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
::It seems wrong to claim that nobody used it when it was adopted by ones like the IGDA and the Raspberry Pi Foundation. I do agree that there is hardly space for this to be included, considering its lack of importance. ] (]) 01:54, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
:::It has significant importance, no matter if anti-GamerGate sites and Misplaced Pages users covered it or not. --] (]) 10:50, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
::::I support including it if it gets more attention from the industry that it affects, or more significant details (f.ex. people being denied employment as a result of it) appear. ] (]) 11:56, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
:::It's definitely a detail that without add'l coverage, really would be difficult to include. --] (]) 01:58, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
::::If anything, I'd include a mention of "The Voice to the Voiceless" campaign under "Diversity and the debate over #NotYourShield" as a response from the users taking part. ] (]) 02:01, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::The article is already too long and includes too much back-and-forth over relatively minor claims-and-counterclaims. The purpose of an encyclopedia article isn't to cover every single event that happened related to the subject; rather, we're supposed to provide a broad overview. I would generally say that (given the level of sourcing used for the rest of the article, and the massive amount of stuff we already have from major sources) if something hasn't received significant coverage in a major mainstream media publication, it probably isn't worth inclusion. Otherwise, we'll end up with a disjointed list of everything that's recently been getting upvoted in Reddit or wherever, which isn't likely to produce a readable article. --] (]) 02:18, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::: And failing to provide good accurate overview, relying on news sites which cite each other and where facts don't match on what the primary sources have to say. http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20141126VL200.html?chid=8&mod=3&q=GAMERGATE Also, this is not an insignificant site. --] (]) 11:29, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::] is actually a fairly controversial source. See and . I'd love to find something from this year about their standards, but the fact that there isn't anything might be telling, too. It's not the worst source to be suggested for this article, sure, but in a page that is already choked to the gills with quotes and sources for every bit of minutia, this seems unnecessary. ] (]) 11:57, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::This is merely a repetition of the standard GamerGate mantra, "All of the media is biased except for the sources that agree with us." ] (]) 11:54, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::It is very arguable whether many outlets involved in the controversy, such as Gawker, can be called unbiased. ] (]) 12:00, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::Then you'll be glad to know that we don't cite Gawker or Kotaku as sources in this article except where they are directly quoted or specifically relevant to a particular claim involving those sites. Instead, we cite sources such as ''The New York Times'', ''Time'', ''The Washington Post'', ''New Statesman'', National Public Radio, ''Columbia Journalism Review'', etc. If your claim is that '''all of those sources are biased too''', then you're simply at odds with how this project works. We base our article content on ]. Misplaced Pages is not an alternative media platform to put forward a message that you believe is being ignored by mainstream sources. ] (]) 12:04, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::I am glad, but my response was just to your generalization. I brought up an example of an arguably biased media source to point out that all negative media isn't indeed free of bias. I am not making a claim that most of them are biased. It is positive whenever sources like the ones you listed are used, instead of ones like Boing Boing and Buzzfeed that are currently present on the article. ] (]) 12:29, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::Looking over the piece I would say that it seems difficult to say where this could fit into the article. Although this seems to have arisen as a result of the Gamergate controversy, it is only tangentially related to it. If it belongs anywhere I would be sticking it into an open letter to every company in the world explaining that this is why you really need to do your homework before implementing something, beyond that it does not seem to improve the article, or provide clarity as to what the Gamergate controversy is.--] (]) 12:35, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::The BuzzFeed citation is present to provide an example of one of the "End of the Gamer Identity" opinion columns which has been criticized by Gamergate supporters, so that readers can view that side of the argument, much as we provide links to Erik Kain's criticism of those columns on ''Forbes.com''. ] (]) 12:53, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::: Our goal, as an encyclopedia, is not 'accuracy' in the sense that you mean. It isn't to universally repeat what every single potential primary source says. It is, rather, to give an accurate overview of what the most ''reputable'' sources say on a subject; of course this means covering a variety of points of view, but we can only say what the reputable sources do. Otherwise, every editor with an axe to grind could come into a controversial article, flood it with whatever cherry-picked sources they've dug up that say what they want it to say, and justify the fact that they are giving eg. a random blog post weight equal to the ''New York Times'' by saying that they believe the blog post tells the truth and the Times doesn't. We can cite relatively minor publications when it's to establish their views, but even then, with something as noisy as this I would usually want to establish that their views are relevant or representative by citing a reliable source first (since there's a huge number of people commenting, and the article has sort of suffered from people throwing in every single commentator in order to fire point-counterpoints at each other by proxy.) And in this case, it seems to me that digitimes is neither a reliable source nor one whose views on the topic are particularly noteworthy, so it shouldn't be used in the article -- especially given that your only real argument for including them seems to be "they're telling the truth and the current sources aren't", which, taken from the other direction, amounts to saying "we should rely on them because I agree with them." Obviously that would make them seem reputable ''to you'', but we have to rely on their prominence and history, neither of which point to them being a good source for this subject when compared to the level of sourcing we're using elsewhere. --] (]) 14:24, 27 November 2014 (UTC)


Then their pronouns are mentioned in a footnote, but it's still pretty confusing:
== Straw Poll: Replace current main article with draft and discussion about the draft ==


Called "The Zoe Post", it was a lengthy, detailed account of <u>their</u> relationship and breakup that included copies of personal chat logs, emails, and text messages. The blog falsely implied that Quinn received a favorable review of Depression Quest in exchange for <u>their</u> sexual relationship with Nathan Grayson, a reporter for the gaming websites Kotaku and Rock Paper Shotgun.
I'm just wanting to see what people think of this, as well as a discussion as to how successful the draft has been at making improvements, and preventing damage. I also find this format to be more useful as it tends to stop an argument between a few obscuring the input of the other contributors. ]] 11:40, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
===Straw Poll===
* '''Support''' I think more work needs to be done on trimming the article and dealing with the quote farming, but we shouldn't wait until it's perfect. — ] (]) 22:50, 28 November 2014 (UTC)


I assume the first "their" is about the relationship between Quinn and Quinn's ex-boyfriend, and that the second "their" is about a relationship between Quinn and Grayson, but the second could still be interpreted as "Quinn's and Quinn's ex-boyfriends" sexual relationship.
===General Discussion about draft overall===


I think these sentences should be written more clearly (by someone who knows what the sentences are supposed to mean). ] (]) 08:49, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
==Suggestion about "Operation Disrespectful Nod"==
:I agree. I've tried some very minor rewording - replaced the first "their" with "Quinn's" to read "which falsely insinuated that Quinn had received a favorable review because of Quinn's sexual relationship with a games journalist", and removed the "their" from the second to give "The blog falsely implied that Quinn received a favorable review of Depression Quest in exchange for a sexual relationship with Nathan Grayson". Hopefully that reads better. - ] (]) 09:03, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
We should elborate the part "members launched a campaign to convince ad providers to pull support from sites critical of Gamergate". There are sources<ref>http://www.inquisitr.com/1561606/gamergate-gawker-loses-bmw-mercedes-and-adobe-advertising-due-to-bullying-gamers/</ref><ref>http://digiday.com/brands/gamergate-experiences-mixed-success/</ref><ref>http://www.businessinsider.com/adobe-pulls-gawker-sponsorship-2014-10</ref> that describe Gawker becoming the target largely because of the bullying comments. My proposed edit was "members launched a campaign to convince ad providers to pull support from sites that allegedly condone bullying and are critical of Gamergate" and I feel like the edit is small and relevant enough to be included despite us trying to bring the article down in size. ] (]) 16:27, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
:Doesn't the bullying claims apply only to Gawker, also I moved to a different section, I was to keep my discussion general. ]] 16:32, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
::It seems to be mainly Gawker, but they have also been the primary target during the last month or so. It seems dishonest to not include the detail. I'd be fine with noting that the bullying backlash was against Gawker specifically, but that might take too much space and we're already lacking. ] (]) 16:44, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
:::the most reliable of the sources you list says that it is a "'''joke''' about bullying" that caused people to get their panties all twisted and . -- ] 16:48, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
::::It was not perceived as a joke by those in GamerGate so their reason for targeting the advertisers was to still go against bullying. Also, regarding that Twitter link, haven't you yourself said that linking websites like that is pointless even on the talk page because their source value is nonexistent? If you want to use it to support your argument, you need to allow the same from others. ] (]) 17:18, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::I thought GG was about journalistic ethics? -- ] 18:15, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::You don't think journalists posting support for bullying is unethical? Regardless, can we get back on topic? ] (]) 18:24, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::I see the joke as hysterically satirical albiet "tone deaf" ; but not connecting with "ethics" in any meaningful way, nor as a personal twit as connecting with "journalism" in any way. -- ] 18:47, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
:No, I think what we have is just fine. Stating that Gawker "allegedly supports bullying" based upon a tweet that was in bad taste, but was an obvious joke, is unsupported nonsense. The sources you have listed are marginal, at best, compared to the existing sources we have in the section. If anything, that section should be trimmed down at this point, as it's a bit of ], really. The media has stopped paying attention and it doesn't seem to have materially affected Gawker. ] (]) 18:38, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
::This was not a single tweet, but multiple tweets. Other people from the network also showed support. It received a very large focus from GamerGate. Furthermore, it seems odd to say that the media has stopped paying attention to this when several articles on the topic have been released during the last four days alone. As for Gawker not having been materially affected, an article by Gawker itself<ref>http://gawker.com/how-we-got-rolled-by-the-dishonest-fascists-of-gamergat-1649496579</ref> states that they have lost thousands and could even lose millions. Full quote: "I've been told that we've lost thousands of dollars already, and could potentially lose thousands more, if not millions." ] (]) 21:46, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
:::You say that "it received a very large focus from Gamergate" — that may be so, but that doesn't appear to have translated into anything actually meaningful. Gawker wrote that post a month ago, there's been no follow-up coverage and the matter appears to be a dead letter as far as the sources go. ] (]) 21:55, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
::::Considering that the contacting of the advertisers is featured on this article and this is the most high profile aspect of it, it should be included. ] (]) 22:11, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::I don't understand what you're asking, then. We already include a discussion of the fact that Gamergate supporters have contacted advertisers. ] (]) 23:12, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::The description is very lacking because it overlooks the main reason for contacting Gawker's advertisers. ] (]) 23:22, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
::{{ping|NorthBySouthBaranof}} Considering how many times I have see that issue about space, why not just split the article and leave the important details on this page? --] (]) 04:11, 29 November 2014 (UTC)


== Wired article concerning Gamergate and Kamala Harris ==
:::Split the article into...what? We don't do ] around here. ] (]) 13:59, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
::::I believe he just means that some aspects of the controversy could be split into separate articles in order to cut down on the main article. You're reading too much into it. That said, I'm not sure if the aspects are noteworthy enough on their own. The only one that I could imagine being split is the very case of "Operation Disrespectful Nod" and even then I'm on the edge. ] (]) 15:34, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::The problem is, there is no sub parts of the controversy that could be logically split off and significantly reduce article length. I really don't think there is a way to split this. ]] 16:19, 29 November 2014 (UTC)


A discussion in ''Wired'' of the playbook that arose during the Gamergate campaign and how it has been used in other contexts '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">] <small>]</small></span>''' 00:44, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
{{reflist-talk}}


== Protected edit request on 29 November 2014 == == Transphobia and attempted outting of Brianna Wu ==
{{hat|Nothing to see here, move along.}}
{{edit protected|Gamergate controversy|answered=yes}}
<!-- Begin request -->
In the second paragraph of this article, it ambiguously mentions a person named Quinn. I would put a {{who}} after the first mention of this "Quinn."
<!-- End request -->
] (]) 03:08, 29 November 2014 (UTC)


:It says "Zoe Quinn" in the 1st sentence of the 2nd paragraph. What are you talking about? ] (]) 03:13, 29 November 2014 (UTC) Should it be added that several proponents of Gamergate attempted to out then stealth trans woman ] as part of the harassment campaign? ] (]) 07:58, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
::Oh, I am so sorry for not seeing that. ] (]) 04:05, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
{{hab}}
== Scrap/Rewrite? ==


== Requested move 5 November 2024 ==
With all the changes that have happened over the course of the movement, would a scrap of the article as it is now, and a complete rewrite (Taking much of the talking points and notes into consideration) be warranted? I'm not the best writer, but I'll see what I can come up with just to field the idea and link it somewhere when I'm not at work. (Which I am now.) ] (]) 08:43, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
:I have thought about that, and someone has put work into a possible one, https://en.wikipedia.org/User:Kaciemonster/gamergate . I had some early involvement but ended up going back to working on the main. ]] 14:41, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
::<s>That's a terrible draft</s> There are major issues with the draft. BLP claims—including criminal accusations—cited to self-published and unreliable sources (which ]). Also issues with UNDUE, where it seems like every part of the controversy gets eight sentences in two paragraphs, no matter how significant or insignificant. ] (]) 15:20, 29 November 2014 (UTC)


<div class="boilerplate mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: var(--background-color-success-subtle, #efe); color: var(--color-base, inherit); margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted var(--border-color-subtle, #AAAAAA);"><!-- Template:RM top -->
==Protected edit request Nov. 29, 2014==
:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color: var(--color-error, red);">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''


The result of the move request was: '''Not moved'''. There is a consensus here that the harassment campaign is not a primary topic &nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp;] (]) 20:54, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
Add new section "Further reading" with link
----


] → {{no redirect|Gamergate}} – In ] (12 November 2014), there was no consensus to move to Gamergate due to recentism and whether it is the primary topic. In ], there was consensus to move the ant species to use its qualifier. It is now clear that there is no recentism issue, and the hatnote indicates this is the primary topic "GamerGate redirects here. For other uses, see Gamergate (disambiguation)." ] (]) 22:37, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
* Gurney Halleck, www.historyofgamergate.com/


*A nitpick on the "primary topic" bit: ]—that is, ] with 2 capital Gs—redirects here, as nobody writes "GamerGate" when discussing the ant. It doesn't mean that this article is the primary topic. ] is a disambiguation page. Also, there have been 6 move discussions since that 2014 discussion, so I wouldn't put too much stock into just "recentism". They're all under the "Other talk page banners" banner at the top of the page. ] (]) 23:08, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
Nice documented presentation of the pro-gg perspective. ] (]) 16:56, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
*'''Support''' I really don’t think anyone outside of biologists even knows “gamergate” is a type of ant. This isn’t like the infamous ] vs. ] debacle— one’s an obscure technical term and the other is an extremely infamous harassment campaign. ] (]) 00:13, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
*:agreed! ] (]) 20:30, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per nom.--] (]) 19:36, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' as there is still data coming out about both topics and "obscure" is only of value as a term when used to demote the usage of something outside ones scope of knowledge. Gamergate as a caste of ant social structure is not going to go away at any point. The harassment campaign is over, and as the legacy section shows, each years coverage has moved more and more to basic level "compared to" analogies and a full lack of in-depth conversation. Recentism seems to clearly be applicable here.--]] ] 23:30, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per Woodroar and Kevmin. This gets rehashed frequently, but there's still no policy-based reason to move the article from its current name. We should retain the disambiguation page at ] and keep this page as-is. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 13:23, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. I suppose I'll add an official !vote here. The harassment campaign article currently gets more views than the ant article. And given the campaign's influence on the alt-right and later harassment and disinformation campaigns, I don't see that interest disappearing tomorrow or next year—but I also can't see it staying relevant forever. Every retrospective I've read puts it firmly in the past, not an ongoing event. The ant was named first and gamergate ants will almost certainly outlast the relevance of the harassment campaign, Misplaced Pages itself, and probably humans. I don't think it's a burden for searchers to land at a disambiguation page where they can see options for the harassment campaign and ant, or for the ''Adventure Time'' character or note about ]. I mean, to be fair, the camelcase ] redirect should probably go to the disambiguation page as well, just to help dispel that confusion. ] (]) 17:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
*:This won't stay relevant forever, but as long as culture war isn't over, this would be the primary topic in most people's head, and a contentious topic at that. I am hesitant to do a ] here, but I am quite sure culture war will continue for at least 20 years per ], it will be very useful to keep this as primary topic during that time. ] (]) 18:19, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' nobody is looking for a niche ant when they're searching for gamergate. ]] 22:49, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
*:{{tq|nobody is looking for a niche ant when they're searching for gamergate}}{{cn}} This seems to sit squarely in statements without data territory. You're saying nobody at all searches for the ant caste by its ''official name''??--]] ] 23:31, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
*::Yeah, Not sure what sort of demographic group is searching for ant castes named Gamergate... unless they knew it was an ant and put (ant) at the end. ]] 05:42, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
*:::The problem here is that "knowing to put (ant) at the end" is learned behavior for searching and editing on wikipedia, not innate search behavior taught in school or higher education. You are creating a ] that the ant is NOT a search topic ever and using that to endorse your position.--]] ] 19:13, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Gamergate was a decade ago already, periodically re-upped or mentioned in passing as a historic footnote to the alt-right. The ant is eternal. The "for other uses" at the top likely needs refining is all I would say. And, unrelated to this specifically, the article long ago needed a rewrite. ] (]) 02:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' “the ant will always be relevant” is technically true, but dismissing Gamergate the harassment campaign as just something that will fade away in ''x'' years is ]. If we took this ''ad absurdum'', you could say the primary topic of ''Mario'' being ] is recentism, because ] has been around much longer, but that is obviously silly because there’s only one “Mario” most people are thinking of when they type it in. Similarly, who is seriously searching for information on a type of ant when they look up “gamergate”? None of the first-page hits on DuckDuckGo are for the ant besides its Misplaced Pages page. ] (]) 14:11, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
*:It already has faded away and is referenced in the past tense. It was a thing that happened briefly a decade ago. The people searching Gamergate for ants (or writing thesis, or producing research content, or studying entomology) are the same ones doing it before 2016, and will continue to do so forever because it is, like, science. This does not mean Gamergate ceases to be mentioned, or doesn't generate hits or search results - and why prior consensus agreed on the disambiguation. This is also why the sentence {{tq|In a few cases, there is some conflict between a topic of primary usage (Apple Inc.) and one of primary long-term significance (Apple). In such a case, consensus may be useful in determining which topic, if any, is the primary topic}} exists. Mario meanwhile is covered later by the statement: {{tq|Non-encyclopedic uses of a term are irrelevant for primary topic purposes; for example, ] is about a Korean pop band, despite the existence of the common English word "twice", as the latter is not a topic suitable for an encyclopedic article}} of WP:PRIMARY. ] (]) 21:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
*::“Happened in the past” is not a measure of relevance any more than happening in the present is. Is ] irrelevant because it only lasted a few days? Is Randy In Boise’s Junkyard Band relevant because they’re currently touring garages in the vicinity of ]? ] (]) 12:27, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
*:::It very specifically is a measure of long term relevance as referenced in the example of Apple Inc vs Apple. The significance of coverage of the event confers notability for the creation of an article. After the event, the significance is maintained through repeated coverage. Woodstock (as the given example) has persistent, repeated, significant and notable coverage and new significant material produced about it annually (along with insignificant and non-notable coverage where it is merely referenced). Gamergate as a harassment campaign isn't. Gamergate occasionally comes up in single instances of research, commonly referenced as a precursor to some element of the Alt Right - but the topic itself isn't discussed, rather it is used as a bellwether type event. There are typically articles written from time to time with titles such as "What we didn't learn from Gamergate" etc but there is little meaningful content (either about the victims, the actions, and certainly not the perpetrators beyond the speculative attribution of the thing to a group of people who may or may not be now a part of another thing). In contrast (per example previous) Apple Inc is likely the most searched topic, the most routinely covered and so on - but an Apple is an ], Valve is a ], just as a Gamergate should be a Gamergate. ] (]) 01:49, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
*::::Except nobody knows what a gamergate ''is'' besides an entomologist. It isn’t even considered a valid word by my spellcheck, i.e, it’s an obscure technical term almost nobody uses. ] (]) 00:24, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
*:::::Arguments from incredulity do not really give any traction to your point though (you not looking for the Caste =/= NO ONE searches for the caste). Policy is where changes come from, and as it stands now, there is a continually decreasing amount of novel coverage for the harassment campaign, while the ant caste isn't going to go anywhere an has the lasting persistence of science topics.--]] ] 18:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
*::::::Bkonrad’s argument directly below is concrete evidence that almost nobody is looking for the ant. The opposes are many, but they’re all based on four main arguments: “]” “]” “]” and “]”; these are all vague and subjective in their importance. ] (]) 07:34, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::Bkonrad’s argument missed all the points the {{yo|KoA}} provided regarding the nuance of flash in the pan events vrs established topics with lasting use in a field. A situation you also are ignoring,--]] ] 19:31, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::Yes, there is a small population of individuals in a narrow field of study who might use the term with some frequency (some of whom are apparently thin-skinned enough to get bent out of shape that more people are interested in other things). This niche technical term in is dwarfed by the overwhelming disparity in what readers of this encyclopedia are looking for. Any comparison with Apple (fruit) vs Apple (company) is without merit. Nearly every speaker of English knows what the Apple fruit is, even if the company generates more traffic. For gamergate, it is likely less than .01% of English speakers who know about (or might ever think to look up) the ant-related topic. ] ≠ ] 20:55, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. This is a bit ridiculous. The and show pretty overwhelmingly what readers are looking for in this case and it is not ants. The ants can be added specifically to the hatnote in addition to the dab so readers looking for the ant are still only one click aways just as they would be with the current setup. ] ≠ ] 17:11, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per nom. ] (]) 00:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''', if we can make a compromise, why not rename the ant article to Gamergate (insect/or ant)? ] (]) 19:29, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Comment.''' Nothing that prior to this comment, the other affected page on the ants was never notified. That's an inappropriate ] in terms of notification when comments are being made about the ants while leaving out the audience that would be most knowledgeable about it when discussing ] and focusing instead on only this page's audience instead. I didn't notice this was going on until I stopped over at the disambig page's talk today. I'll put notifications up shortly. ] (]) 19:50, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
*:Idk what that means ] (]) 21:59, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
*::@]; Primary topic grabs typically require multi-page moves, but if they don't, it is still courtesy to notify the other pages listed on the disambiguation. ] (]) 07:41, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. While this topic certainly still gets mentioned, coverage has declined sharply; it seems silly to suggest that it would be more appropriate as the main article than it was a decade ago when it was in full-swing. --] (]) 20:39, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Strong oppose.''' per ]. It's one thing to have the current disambiguation setup, but to call the harassment topic the primary topic would be a huge pardigm shift from previous discussions that isn't reflected here. I'll get into the substance below, but this does feel like a bludgeon for editors at the ant page not wanting to have to deal with a controversial topic. Over the last 10 years, this page has had a lot of controversy over its title and ambiguity on what to call itself to the point moratoriums have been put in place on RMs partially to give the ant topic a break. For the harassment topic to suddenly be the primary, there would have to be something huge that changed that wasn't covered ad nauseum in all the past RMs. Here's the history I had from the last RM below:
*#https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?oldid=1041117019#Requested_move_20_August_2021
*#https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?oldid=1039653835#Requested_move_12_August_2021
*#]
*#]
*#] (moratorium put in place on requested moves)
*#]
*#]
*#]
*#]
*#]
*:This initial proposal leaves out a lot of what actually happened in the , but the core issue here is that comments in support aren't really addressing the core issues found in the last move. It wasn't primarily a matter of recentism, but instead rangling with two aspects of PTOPIC:
*#{{tq|A topic is primary for a term with respect to usage if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term.}}
*#{{tq|A topic is primary for a term with respect to long-term significance if it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term.}}
*:For the time being, the harassment campaign has higher views in terms of PT1, but all of our guidance related to views, search hits, etc. have strong cautions against carte blanche use of those stats, especially in terms of ] and our internet audience where internet topics like the harassment topic are going to be more popular. For PT2 though, that's where the ant has a pretty clear case. Previous closes were clear too {{tq|it is apparent that a clear majority of the community would prefer a primary topic in favour of long-term significance}}. Personally I think that puts the ant squarely as the primary topic even when weighing all of that with an even hand. With that said, the harassment campaign over 10 years never had primary topic status, though in the 2021 RM, it was just split down the middle to have a disambiguation page instead of having the ant as the primary topic. That at least did stop the RMs for a time, but I'm not seeing anything here that would suggest that something has majorly changed on that side since 2021.
*:The other issue I'm seeing is the naming of the harassment campaign regardless of the ants. All the RMs I mentioned above show the history of how much the topic title has morphed and been contentious. Calling it the harassment campaign parenthetical seemed to finally settle that down, but undoing that is going to increase the ambiguity again. At the end of the day, the last RM at least made it so no one is astonished. You type Gamergate into the search and you're either going to see the two options you want already Gamergate (ant) or Gamergate (harassment campaign). If you click the first result, you get the disambiguation page which guides you even more. Unless there's a major resurgence of Gamergate-related harassment in coming years that truly adds to the event, it's pretty hard for it to leap-frog two levels up to the definitive primary topic. ] (]) 21:16, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
*::I thought I'd revive a bit I wrote at the last RM that actually focuses on the ant side of things.
*::A gamergate is a worker ant that is able to reproduce, which the article outlines as unique for most ant species. This currently impacts all individuals of species within at least five ] and 17 ] (as opposed to only a of subset of individuals within the species ] for the harassment event). For the ants (or really any biological trait this fixed in multiple species), there is not a ] this million-year+ old trait will just suddenly disappear and stop affecting all of these species. In fact, that CRYSTAL policy specifically calls out such arguments as a violation: {{tq|Although currently accepted scientific paradigms may later be rejected, and hypotheses previously held to be controversial or incorrect sometimes become accepted by the scientific community, it is not the place of Misplaced Pages to venture such projections.}} When scientists name these traits, they are generally also stable in usage ] is a similar example of these terminology being common in biology.
*::Much of this long-term impact is something inherent to ]/biology topics and is why PTOPIC also mentions long-term education aspects being of higher value. On that note, ant gamergates are something that’s likely to come up in biology textbooks when discussing ant colonies since ] animals are often a common example in varying degrees for both kids and college students. It might be a footnote in more basic biology books, but if you get into common intro-level courses at say college, this kind of thing can easily come up in sections dealing with insect diversity.
*::While common usage metrics have consistently been an issue for this discussion, looking at scholarly metrics helps. Google Scholar is well known, but generally not that reliable for things like citation metrics, etc. because they include a lot of non-scholarly sources. is usually a more conservative (scientifically, not political) search engine in that regard. Just typing in gamergate gave 189 articles (49 more than in 2021). Of these, 94 mostly focus on the gamergate ant, and 95 involved the harassment topic. That's giving the harassment topic a handicap since that includes mere mentions of Gamergate in that context in the search parameters. That paints a very different picture than those haphazardly using Google searches. At the least academic attention (or use) isn't any higher for the harassment topic, so you'd be hard pressed to call that the primary topic based on search hits. ] is what really anchors discussion here. ] (]) 21:32, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per KoA and others, the fact that people are finding the article they are interested in via the disambiguation and also learning about other uses supports retention of status quo. ] (]) 02:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per ]. While the harassment campaign is more notable in tv news and right-wing twitter/X/parler, it is not necessarily so world-wide, and most importantly, in the scholarly literature. See also: . Misplaced Pages is a scholarship-driven institution, and harassment of video game journalists is not any more important than entomology in the world of scholarship. Keep the disambiguation page, and keep these two pages (ant) and (harassment campaign) disambiguated. —&nbsp;] <sup>(]</sup> <sup>])</sup> 18:07, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Pure pageviews and Google hits are not the sole criterion of primary topics. As per others, mentions of the ants and the harassers are pretty balanced in scholarship, if not having the ants come out on top. Can we put a permanent moratorium on move discussions now? The "harassment campaign" part of the title gives ] editors a good reason to keep attempting this move for the foreseeable future. ] (]) 12:09, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Comment''': Leave how the title is and don't change it, or change it to "GamerGate". I'm only speaking for the title, btw. ] • (]&#124;]). 05:32, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: var(--color-error, red);">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from ] -->
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Section sizes
Section size for Gamergate (harassment campaign) (30 sections)
Section name Byte
count
Section
total
(Top) 7,541 7,541
History 12 24,309
Zoë Quinn and Depression Quest 8,673 8,673
Anita Sarkeesian and Tropes vs. Women in Video Games 4,118 4,118
Brianna Wu 2,212 2,212
Other targets of harassment 4,785 4,785
Coordination of harassment 4,509 4,509
Demographics 1,742 1,742
Organization 6,299 14,975
Harassment and Twitter 2,598 2,598
Efforts to affect public perceptions 3,442 3,442
Targeting advertisers 1,100 1,100
Sad Puppies 1,536 1,536
Purpose and goals 8,966 8,966
Social, cultural, and political impact 3,100 20,723
Gamer identity 6,370 6,370
Misogyny and sexism 6,365 6,365
Law enforcement 4,888 4,888
Gaming industry response 6,868 6,868
Representation in media 3,227 3,227
Reducing online harassment 2,438 2,438
Legacy 10,955 34,354
2015–2018 5,223 5,223
2019 4,618 4,618
2020–2021 4,176 4,176
2022–present 9,382 9,382
See also 180 180
Notes 24 24
References 111,543 111,543
External links 1,105 1,105
Total 237,995 237,995
Reference ideas for Gamergate (harassment campaign)The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:

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— Preceding unsigned comment added by TheRedPenOfDoom (talkcontribs) 21:18, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

They/them pronoun confusion

As someone who is not familiar with gamergate, there are some parts of the article which are confusing because of how Quinn's they/them pronouns are used. The lead currently contains the following sentence:

Gamergate began with an August 2014 blog entry called "The Zoe Post" by Quinn's ex-boyfriend, which falsely insinuated that Quinn had received a favorable review because of their sexual relationship with a games journalist.

The sentence gives the impression that it's about a sexual relationship between Quinn, Quinn's ex-boyfried, and a games journalist. I know it's because Quinn's pronouns are they/them but their pronouns haven't been mentioned yet in the text.

Then their pronouns are mentioned in a footnote, but it's still pretty confusing:

Called "The Zoe Post", it was a lengthy, detailed account of their relationship and breakup that included copies of personal chat logs, emails, and text messages. The blog falsely implied that Quinn received a favorable review of Depression Quest in exchange for their sexual relationship with Nathan Grayson, a reporter for the gaming websites Kotaku and Rock Paper Shotgun.

I assume the first "their" is about the relationship between Quinn and Quinn's ex-boyfriend, and that the second "their" is about a relationship between Quinn and Grayson, but the second could still be interpreted as "Quinn's and Quinn's ex-boyfriends" sexual relationship.

I think these sentences should be written more clearly (by someone who knows what the sentences are supposed to mean). Paditor (talk) 08:49, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree. I've tried some very minor rewording - replaced the first "their" with "Quinn's" to read "which falsely insinuated that Quinn had received a favorable review because of Quinn's sexual relationship with a games journalist", and removed the "their" from the second to give "The blog falsely implied that Quinn received a favorable review of Depression Quest in exchange for a sexual relationship with Nathan Grayson". Hopefully that reads better. - Bilby (talk) 09:03, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Wired article concerning Gamergate and Kamala Harris

A discussion in Wired of the playbook that arose during the Gamergate campaign and how it has been used in other contexts Acroterion (talk) 00:44, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Transphobia and attempted outting of Brianna Wu

Should it be added that several proponents of Gamergate attempted to out then stealth trans woman Brianna Wu as part of the harassment campaign? Turtletennisfogwheat (talk) 07:58, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 5 November 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. There is a consensus here that the harassment campaign is not a primary topic  — Amakuru (talk) 20:54, 24 November 2024 (UTC)


Gamergate (harassment campaign)Gamergate – In /Archive 13#Requested moves (12 November 2014), there was no consensus to move to Gamergate due to recentism and whether it is the primary topic. In Talk:Gamergate (ant)/Archive 3#Requested move 20 August 2021, there was consensus to move the ant species to use its qualifier. It is now clear that there is no recentism issue, and the hatnote indicates this is the primary topic "GamerGate redirects here. For other uses, see Gamergate (disambiguation)." Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 22:37, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

  • A nitpick on the "primary topic" bit: GamerGate—that is, camel case with 2 capital Gs—redirects here, as nobody writes "GamerGate" when discussing the ant. It doesn't mean that this article is the primary topic. Gamergate is a disambiguation page. Also, there have been 6 move discussions since that 2014 discussion, so I wouldn't put too much stock into just "recentism". They're all under the "Other talk page banners" banner at the top of the page. Woodroar (talk) 23:08, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Support I really don’t think anyone outside of biologists even knows “gamergate” is a type of ant. This isn’t like the infamous Bill O’Riley vs. Bill O’Riley debacle— one’s an obscure technical term and the other is an extremely infamous harassment campaign. Dronebogus (talk) 00:13, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
    agreed! Laugoose (talk) 20:30, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 19:36, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose as there is still data coming out about both topics and "obscure" is only of value as a term when used to demote the usage of something outside ones scope of knowledge. Gamergate as a caste of ant social structure is not going to go away at any point. The harassment campaign is over, and as the legacy section shows, each years coverage has moved more and more to basic level "compared to" analogies and a full lack of in-depth conversation. Recentism seems to clearly be applicable here.--Kevmin § 23:30, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Woodroar and Kevmin. This gets rehashed frequently, but there's still no policy-based reason to move the article from its current name. We should retain the disambiguation page at Gamergate and keep this page as-is. — The Hand That Feeds You: 13:23, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I suppose I'll add an official !vote here. The harassment campaign article currently gets more views than the ant article. And given the campaign's influence on the alt-right and later harassment and disinformation campaigns, I don't see that interest disappearing tomorrow or next year—but I also can't see it staying relevant forever. Every retrospective I've read puts it firmly in the past, not an ongoing event. The ant was named first and gamergate ants will almost certainly outlast the relevance of the harassment campaign, Misplaced Pages itself, and probably humans. I don't think it's a burden for searchers to land at a disambiguation page where they can see options for the harassment campaign and ant, or for the Adventure Time character or note about GamersGate. I mean, to be fair, the camelcase GamerGate redirect should probably go to the disambiguation page as well, just to help dispel that confusion. Woodroar (talk) 17:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
    This won't stay relevant forever, but as long as culture war isn't over, this would be the primary topic in most people's head, and a contentious topic at that. I am hesitant to do a WP:CRYSTAL here, but I am quite sure culture war will continue for at least 20 years per WP:RECENT#WP:20YEARTEST, it will be very useful to keep this as primary topic during that time. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 18:19, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Support nobody is looking for a niche ant when they're searching for gamergate. Scuba 22:49, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
    nobody is looking for a niche ant when they're searching for gamergate This seems to sit squarely in statements without data territory. You're saying nobody at all searches for the ant caste by its official name??--Kevmin § 23:31, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
    Yeah, Not sure what sort of demographic group is searching for ant castes named Gamergate... unless they knew it was an ant and put (ant) at the end. Scuba 05:42, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
    The problem here is that "knowing to put (ant) at the end" is learned behavior for searching and editing on wikipedia, not innate search behavior taught in school or higher education. You are creating a strawman argument that the ant is NOT a search topic ever and using that to endorse your position.--Kevmin § 19:13, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose Gamergate was a decade ago already, periodically re-upped or mentioned in passing as a historic footnote to the alt-right. The ant is eternal. The "for other uses" at the top likely needs refining is all I would say. And, unrelated to this specifically, the article long ago needed a rewrite. Koncorde (talk) 02:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Comment “the ant will always be relevant” is technically true, but dismissing Gamergate the harassment campaign as just something that will fade away in x years is WP:CRYSTAL. If we took this ad absurdum, you could say the primary topic of Mario being the video game character is recentism, because the name itself has been around much longer, but that is obviously silly because there’s only one “Mario” most people are thinking of when they type it in. Similarly, who is seriously searching for information on a type of ant when they look up “gamergate”? None of the first-page hits on DuckDuckGo are for the ant besides its Misplaced Pages page. Dronebogus (talk) 14:11, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
    It already has faded away and is referenced in the past tense. It was a thing that happened briefly a decade ago. The people searching Gamergate for ants (or writing thesis, or producing research content, or studying entomology) are the same ones doing it before 2016, and will continue to do so forever because it is, like, science. This does not mean Gamergate ceases to be mentioned, or doesn't generate hits or search results - and why prior consensus agreed on the disambiguation. This is also why the sentence In a few cases, there is some conflict between a topic of primary usage (Apple Inc.) and one of primary long-term significance (Apple). In such a case, consensus may be useful in determining which topic, if any, is the primary topic exists. Mario meanwhile is covered later by the statement: Non-encyclopedic uses of a term are irrelevant for primary topic purposes; for example, Twice is about a Korean pop band, despite the existence of the common English word "twice", as the latter is not a topic suitable for an encyclopedic article of WP:PRIMARY. Koncorde (talk) 21:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
    “Happened in the past” is not a measure of relevance any more than happening in the present is. Is Woodstock irrelevant because it only lasted a few days? Is Randy In Boise’s Junkyard Band relevant because they’re currently touring garages in the vicinity of Ada County? Dronebogus (talk) 12:27, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
    It very specifically is a measure of long term relevance as referenced in the example of Apple Inc vs Apple. The significance of coverage of the event confers notability for the creation of an article. After the event, the significance is maintained through repeated coverage. Woodstock (as the given example) has persistent, repeated, significant and notable coverage and new significant material produced about it annually (along with insignificant and non-notable coverage where it is merely referenced). Gamergate as a harassment campaign isn't. Gamergate occasionally comes up in single instances of research, commonly referenced as a precursor to some element of the Alt Right - but the topic itself isn't discussed, rather it is used as a bellwether type event. There are typically articles written from time to time with titles such as "What we didn't learn from Gamergate" etc but there is little meaningful content (either about the victims, the actions, and certainly not the perpetrators beyond the speculative attribution of the thing to a group of people who may or may not be now a part of another thing). In contrast (per example previous) Apple Inc is likely the most searched topic, the most routinely covered and so on - but an Apple is an Apple, Valve is a Valve, just as a Gamergate should be a Gamergate. Koncorde (talk) 01:49, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
    Except nobody knows what a gamergate is besides an entomologist. It isn’t even considered a valid word by my spellcheck, i.e, it’s an obscure technical term almost nobody uses. Dronebogus (talk) 00:24, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
    Arguments from incredulity do not really give any traction to your point though (you not looking for the Caste =/= NO ONE searches for the caste). Policy is where changes come from, and as it stands now, there is a continually decreasing amount of novel coverage for the harassment campaign, while the ant caste isn't going to go anywhere an has the lasting persistence of science topics.--Kevmin § 18:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
    Bkonrad’s argument directly below is concrete evidence that almost nobody is looking for the ant. The opposes are many, but they’re all based on four main arguments: “it’s too old” “it’s too new” “it’s the status quo” and “the ant is just more worthy”; these are all vague and subjective in their importance. Dronebogus (talk) 07:34, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
    Bkonrad’s argument missed all the points the @KoA: provided regarding the nuance of flash in the pan events vrs established topics with lasting use in a field. A situation you also are ignoring,--Kevmin § 19:31, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
    Yes, there is a small population of individuals in a narrow field of study who might use the term with some frequency (some of whom are apparently thin-skinned enough to get bent out of shape that more people are interested in other things). This niche technical term in is dwarfed by the overwhelming disparity in what readers of this encyclopedia are looking for. Any comparison with Apple (fruit) vs Apple (company) is without merit. Nearly every speaker of English knows what the Apple fruit is, even if the company generates more traffic. For gamergate, it is likely less than .01% of English speakers who know about (or might ever think to look up) the ant-related topic. olderwiser 20:55, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Support. This is a bit ridiculous. The page views and wikinav show pretty overwhelmingly what readers are looking for in this case and it is not ants. The ants can be added specifically to the hatnote in addition to the dab so readers looking for the ant are still only one click aways just as they would be with the current setup. olderwiser 17:11, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Support per nom. Theparties (talk) 00:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Support, if we can make a compromise, why not rename the ant article to Gamergate (insect/or ant)? Cburt777 (talk) 19:29, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Comment. Nothing that prior to this comment, the other affected page on the ants was never notified. That's an inappropriate WP:VOTESTACK in terms of notification when comments are being made about the ants while leaving out the audience that would be most knowledgeable about it when discussing WP:PTOPIC and focusing instead on only this page's audience instead. I didn't notice this was going on until I stopped over at the disambig page's talk today. I'll put notifications up shortly. KoA (talk) 19:50, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
    Idk what that means Cburt777 (talk) 21:59, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
    @Cburt777; Primary topic grabs typically require multi-page moves, but if they don't, it is still courtesy to notify the other pages listed on the disambiguation. Sennecaster (Chat) 07:41, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose. While this topic certainly still gets mentioned, coverage has declined sharply; it seems silly to suggest that it would be more appropriate as the main article than it was a decade ago when it was in full-swing. --Aquillion (talk) 20:39, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose. per WP:PTOPIC. It's one thing to have the current disambiguation setup, but to call the harassment topic the primary topic would be a huge pardigm shift from previous discussions that isn't reflected here. I'll get into the substance below, but this does feel like a bludgeon for editors at the ant page not wanting to have to deal with a controversial topic. Over the last 10 years, this page has had a lot of controversy over its title and ambiguity on what to call itself to the point moratoriums have been put in place on RMs partially to give the ant topic a break. For the harassment topic to suddenly be the primary, there would have to be something huge that changed that wasn't covered ad nauseum in all the past RMs. Here's the history I had from the last RM below:
    1. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?oldid=1041117019#Requested_move_20_August_2021
    2. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?oldid=1039653835#Requested_move_12_August_2021
    3. Talk:Gamergate_(ant)/Archive_1#Requested_move_28_December_2015
    4. Talk:Gamergate_(harassment_campaign)/Archive_45#Requested_move_30_August_2015
    5. Talk:Gamergate_(harassment_campaign)/Archive_46#Requested_move_20_September_2015 (moratorium put in place on requested moves)
    6. Talk:Gamergate_(harassment_campaign)/Archive_32#How_about_calling_this_article_.22GamerGate.22
    7. Talk:Gamergate_(harassment_campaign)/Archive_30#.22Movement.22_or_.22Controversy.22
    8. Talk:Gamergate_(harassment_campaign)/Archive_28#Requested_move_14_February_2015
    9. Talk:Gamergate_(harassment_campaign)/Archive_13#Requested_moves
    10. Talk:Gamergate_(harassment_campaign)/Archive_37#Requested_move_15_May_2015
    This initial proposal leaves out a lot of what actually happened in the last RM, but the core issue here is that comments in support aren't really addressing the core issues found in the last move. It wasn't primarily a matter of recentism, but instead rangling with two aspects of PTOPIC:
    1. A topic is primary for a term with respect to usage if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term.
    2. A topic is primary for a term with respect to long-term significance if it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term.
    For the time being, the harassment campaign has higher views in terms of PT1, but all of our guidance related to views, search hits, etc. have strong cautions against carte blanche use of those stats, especially in terms of WP:NWFCTM and our internet audience where internet topics like the harassment topic are going to be more popular. For PT2 though, that's where the ant has a pretty clear case. Previous closes were clear too it is apparent that a clear majority of the community would prefer a primary topic in favour of long-term significance. Personally I think that puts the ant squarely as the primary topic even when weighing all of that with an even hand. With that said, the harassment campaign over 10 years never had primary topic status, though in the 2021 RM, it was just split down the middle to have a disambiguation page instead of having the ant as the primary topic. That at least did stop the RMs for a time, but I'm not seeing anything here that would suggest that something has majorly changed on that side since 2021.
    The other issue I'm seeing is the naming of the harassment campaign regardless of the ants. All the RMs I mentioned above show the history of how much the topic title has morphed and been contentious. Calling it the harassment campaign parenthetical seemed to finally settle that down, but undoing that is going to increase the ambiguity again. At the end of the day, the last RM at least made it so no one is astonished. You type Gamergate into the search and you're either going to see the two options you want already Gamergate (ant) or Gamergate (harassment campaign). If you click the first result, you get the disambiguation page which guides you even more. Unless there's a major resurgence of Gamergate-related harassment in coming years that truly adds to the event, it's pretty hard for it to leap-frog two levels up to the definitive primary topic. KoA (talk) 21:16, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
    I thought I'd revive a bit I wrote at the last RM that actually focuses on the ant side of things.
    A gamergate is a worker ant that is able to reproduce, which the article outlines as unique for most ant species. This currently impacts all individuals of species within at least five subfamilies and 17 genera (as opposed to only a of subset of individuals within the species Homo sapiens for the harassment event). For the ants (or really any biological trait this fixed in multiple species), there is not a reasonable doubt this million-year+ old trait will just suddenly disappear and stop affecting all of these species. In fact, that CRYSTAL policy specifically calls out such arguments as a violation: Although currently accepted scientific paradigms may later be rejected, and hypotheses previously held to be controversial or incorrect sometimes become accepted by the scientific community, it is not the place of Misplaced Pages to venture such projections. When scientists name these traits, they are generally also stable in usage Mermithergate is a similar example of these terminology being common in biology.
    Much of this long-term impact is something inherent to WP:SCHOLARSHIP/biology topics and is why PTOPIC also mentions long-term education aspects being of higher value. On that note, ant gamergates are something that’s likely to come up in biology textbooks when discussing ant colonies since eusocial animals are often a common example in varying degrees for both kids and college students. It might be a footnote in more basic biology books, but if you get into common intro-level courses at say college, this kind of thing can easily come up in sections dealing with insect diversity.
    While common usage metrics have consistently been an issue for this discussion, looking at scholarly metrics helps. Google Scholar is well known, but generally not that reliable for things like citation metrics, etc. because they include a lot of non-scholarly sources. Web of Science is usually a more conservative (scientifically, not political) search engine in that regard. Just typing in gamergate gave 189 articles (49 more than in 2021). Of these, 94 mostly focus on the gamergate ant, and 95 involved the harassment topic. That's giving the harassment topic a handicap since that includes mere mentions of Gamergate in that context in the search parameters. That paints a very different picture than those haphazardly using Google searches. At the least academic attention (or use) isn't any higher for the harassment topic, so you'd be hard pressed to call that the primary topic based on search hits. WP:PT2 is what really anchors discussion here. KoA (talk) 21:32, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose per KoA and others, the fact that people are finding the article they are interested in via the disambiguation and also learning about other uses supports retention of status quo. Shyamal (talk) 02:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose per WP:PTOPIC. While the harassment campaign is more notable in tv news and right-wing twitter/X/parler, it is not necessarily so world-wide, and most importantly, in the scholarly literature. See also: Ngrams for GamerGate vs Gamergate vs gamergate. Misplaced Pages is a scholarship-driven institution, and harassment of video game journalists is not any more important than entomology in the world of scholarship. Keep the disambiguation page, and keep these two pages (ant) and (harassment campaign) disambiguated. — Shibbolethink 18:07, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose Pure pageviews and Google hits are not the sole criterion of primary topics. As per others, mentions of the ants and the harassers are pretty balanced in scholarship, if not having the ants come out on top. Can we put a permanent moratorium on move discussions now? The "harassment campaign" part of the title gives WP:SPA editors a good reason to keep attempting this move for the foreseeable future. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ () 12:09, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Comment: Leave how the title is and don't change it, or change it to "GamerGate". I'm only speaking for the title, btw. Tonkarooson • (📭|Edits). 05:32, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Categories:
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