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== Evolution and Darwin's theory of Evolution - two things. ==

I wonder if I might suggest a small shift of emphasis.

The 'theory of evolution' and 'Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection' are often used as synonyms but they are really two different things. Evolution is indisputable fact, Darwin's theory is about the mechanism of evolution by natural selection: it is (slightly) less certain than evolution itself and can thus be argued against. I always try and carefully distinguish between the two lest anyone who thinks they have found a flaw in Darwin's theory think they have also found a flaw in the theory of evolution. Cassandra ] (]) 11:18, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

:I think Darwin's first version, and the modern standard versions are distinguished in the article? Could you clarify what needs clarifying? You seem to emphasize a concern with the term "natural selection", but the concept of selection (which is actually a word being used metaphorically in biology) is still standard?--] (]) 12:21, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

:: I believe evolution is factual but it is a theory and it should be stated that it is merely a theory for neutrality and factual reasons. <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 23:34, 6 December 2014 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::: Please read the FAQ at the top of the page. Specifically Q3. Thanks. --] (]) 23:42, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

:::: If the theory of evolution is merely a theory then how can evolution be a fact. <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 23:50, 6 December 2014 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::::: Please read ]. --] (]) 23:54, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
::::: Yes you are correct. Thanks for the information! <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 00:03, 7 December 2014 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Semi-protected edit request on 9 December 2014 ==

{{edit semi-protected|Evolution|answered=y}}
<!-- Begin request -->
Evolution be changed to The Theory of Evolution, as this may be taught in schools, but is still not accepted as fact.
<!-- End request -->
] (]) 10:21, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

{{Not done}} - Unsurprisingly, this has been suggested before, but consensus is very clearly against you - please see the archives - all 65 of them.<br />For a summary. please also see the FAQs at the top of this page - particularly No 3 - ] (]) 10:39, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

== Article Organization ==

I think that the structure for the article does not allow the reader to link holistically the concepts of evolutionary theory. As an example of a better structure, I might suggest the . I would propose a new index in order to improve the organization of the article and allow for a better understanding of evolutionary theory. <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 13:12, 13 December 2014 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

I agree that the organization and clarity of this article could be improved. does have better organization.

'''Translation of :'''

:1 Evolution as documented fact
::1.1 Evidence of the evolutionary process
::1.2 The origin of life
::1.3 The evolution of life on Earth

:2 Scientific theories about evolution
::2.1 History of evolutionary thought
::2.2 Darwinism
::2.3 Neo-Darwinism
::2.4 Modern evolutionary synthesis
::2.5 Expansion of the modern synthesis

:3 Modern evolutionary synthesis
::3.1 Variability
:::3.1.1 Mutation
:::3.1.2 Genetic recombination
:::3.1.3 Population genetics
:::3.1.4 Gene Flow
::3.2 Mechanisms of evolution
:::3.2.1 Natural Selection
:::3.2.2 Genetic Drift
::3.3 Consequences of evolution
:::3.3.1 Adaptation
:::3.3.2 Coevolution
:::3.3.3 Speciation
:::3.3.4 Extinction
::3.4 Microevolution and macroevolution

:4 Expansion of the modern synthesis
::4.1 Paleobiology and evolutionary rates
::4.2 Environmental causes of mass extinctions
::4.3 Sexual selection and altruism
::4.4 Macroevolution, promising monsters and punctuated equilibrium
::4.5 Synthesis of developmental biology and evolutionary theory
::4.6 Microbiology and horizontal gene transfer
::4.7 Endosymbiosis and origin of eukaryotic cells
::4.8 Changes in the expression of genes involved in the inheritance

:5 Experiments and studies on the evolutionary process
::5.1 Direct observation of the evolutionary process in bacteria
::5.2 Computer simulation of the process of biological evolution

:6 Impacts of the theory of evolution
::6.1 Evolution and religion
::6.2 Other theories of evolution and scientific reviews of the synthetic theory
:::6.2.1 Other minority hypothesis

:7 See also

:8 References

:9 Further reading

:10 External links

Please consider the organization of the following source:

: 2014. . Collaborative project of University of California Museum of Paleontology and the National Center for Science Education. Accessed 13-Dec-2014.
::

:::

:::
:::: • The family tree
:::: • Understanding phylogenies
:::: • Building the tree
:::: • Homologies and analogies
:::: • Using the tree for classification
:::: • Adding time to the tree
:::: • How we know what happened when
:::: • Important events in the history of life

:::
:::: • Descent with modification
:::: • Mechanisms of change
:::: • Genetic variation
:::: • Mutations
:::: • The causes of mutations
:::: • Gene flow
:::: • Sex and genetic shuffling
:::: • Development
:::: • Genetic drift
:::: • Natural selection
:::: • What about fitness?
:::: • Sexual selection
:::: • Artificial selection
:::: • Adaptation
:::: • Misconceptions about natural selection
:::: • Coevolution

:::
:::: • Defining microevolution
:::: • Detecting microevolutionary change
:::: • Mechanisms of microevolution

:::
:::: • Defining a species
:::: • Defining speciation
:::: • Causes of speciation
:::: • Reproductive isolation
:::: • Evidence for speciation
:::: • Cospeciation

:::
:::: • What is macroevolution?
:::: • Patterns in macroevolution

:::
:::: • The pace of evolution
:::: • Diversity in clades
:::: • Looking at complexity
:::: • Trends in evolution

] (]) 14:48, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

== A Question ==
Shouldn't something be said about the flaws in the theory of evolution on this page to give an unbiased view of the theory?{{unsigned|Dogmyth}}
:New sections belong at the bottom, please sign your posts with four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>). ] to ]. For example, our article on ] does not pretend it is ], ], and/or ]. Those blue words are links to site policies and guidelines that back up the material I discuss. Given your other edits, it's clear that ] and may ]. ] (]) 03:48, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

== Regarding recent changes ==

have been reverted by multiple users because , and the edit .

This article's content is about biological evolution, and (per ]) the intro summarizes the article. The removed content discussed a number of uses of the word "evolution" that had nothing to do with biology. ] (]) 00:27, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that page is about "biologcal evolution" and the ] page REDIRECTS there! Why? That makes NO SENSE! The page is named "evolution". Not "biological evolution". Where should "evolution" be described, if the "evolution" page is to be RESERVED FOR "biological evolution" while the "biological evolution" page is left blank except for a redirect to the "evolution" page? In my opinion, that is HIDING WHAT EVOLUTION IS from the public. Is that what Misplaced Pages is for? To deceive the public?
] (]) 00:49, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
:Per the scholarly and technical definition of the word evolution, evolution IS just biological evolution. Only colloquially does it refer to other forms of change. And since this is an encyclopedia, there is a natural preference for using terms in a scholarly/technical way, hence the evolution article is about biological evolution only. Other encyclopedias do it the exact same way.01:03, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Quote: "evolution IS just biological evolution" -- Response: Bull SH*T!
BIOLOGICAL EVOLUTION is "just biological evolution". EVOLUTION is not! What religion told you that silly lie? I'm really SICK AND TIRED OF THE CENSORSHIP IN HERE! I have noticed that the article is written as if it were meant to discredit evolution, rather than to explain it. Now, should I continue trying to assume good intentions?
] (]) 01:49, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
:My scientific education told me that. My love of words that is so extensive that I read the dictionary told me that. Other encyclopedias tell me that. Other scientific experts tell me that. And I find it strange that you think this article is written to discredit evolution. Most of the time, we get people claiming its too pro-evolution.

:Now please, ]. Its a rule, not a recommendation. (which is exactly why you should continue trying to assume good intentions) I highly recommend abiding by it. Failure to do so generally leads to getting your account and perhaps even your IP address blocked.] (]) 01:57, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

:You seem to have a fundamental lack of understanding that this is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary. Evolution, in this context, refers to biological evolution, not all possible applications of the term. Your posts continue to be insulting and rude, while ignoring all feedback you receive. ] (]) 01:54, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

:I have ]. I'd've been more willing to look the other way if he hadn't been completely hostile to everyone he's interacted with. ] (]) 03:10, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

:: Hello ]. Sorry what I was doing came off as "edit warring". That was not my intention. I simply had no idea how to contact people in here... nor at first even how to find this talk page (nor did I think to look for it at first). I'm not entirely unfamiliar with editing in Misplaced Pages, but unfortunately I had in the past had similar experiences and could not find anyone to tell me what I most needed to know.... how to reply to people. Needless to say, the frustration was overwhelming. Please accept my apology.

:: Sorry ]. I was banned, and unable to reply, before I was able to figure out (thanks to some helpful people) how to actually post a reply. It's not as intuitive before learning it as it seems AFTER learning it. LOL!.

:: I had not meant to call you a vandal. I over-reacted due mainly to previous bad experiences in Misplaced Pages. How '''biological evolution''' fits into the broader concept of '''evolution''' is not only relevant to '''biological evolution''' but essential for some people to be able to understand that '''evolution''' is a real process that actually happens and no some much more restricted thing they have been told to believe it is.

:: Even within the context of '''biological evolution''' the statement "Evolution is the change in the inherited phenotypic traits (characteristics) of biological populations over successive generations", is not entirely a true statement. That does describe what is generally meant in that context, but it certainly is not descriptive of '''evolution''' in a broader sense, and the I would think the ] page, if it is going to be about only one facet or one category of evolution, should at least put it into the context of '''evolution''' in the broader sense, from the start.

:: While there is a link to the disambiguation page at the top of the ] page, its disambiguation page starts out with "Evolution is the change in traits of biological organisms over time due to natural selection and other mechanisms", which again is not a true statement, outside of a very specific context.

::Anyway, progress has been made in my absence, and after this latest experience I would rather avoid editing pages in Misplaced Pages when not specifically asked to, except for perhaps occasional minor edits. Perhaps in time that will change, but right now I'm still recovering from the trauma. Thanks for doing what you felt was right, and again I apologize for my wording in describing what it '''looked like''' to me at the time.

:: ] (]) 21:44, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

== Additions being deleted ==

Okay, I do see the "NOTE: Please do not change the lead sentence(s) without consulting the discussion page first. This lead has been discussed and there is general consensus that this is the best one for now. Thanks." at the top now. Didn't notice it before... so yes, when my changes were deleted, it certainly looked like vandalism to me. I'll post my proposed changed here in the talk page, but really.... does it make ANY SENSE to have an "evolution" page, that is all about ONE KIND OF THING EVOLVING IN ONE SPECIFIC WAY, when everything capable of accumulating changes evolves? If there is a reason why my hard work should be thrown away, PLEASE , SOMEBODY, kindly explain it to me.

Here's the text of the first two paragraphs after the changes I had made...

'''Evolution''' in its broadest sense, is the accumulation of change. In this sense, anything in which changes accumulate, evolves. This is true of culture<ref>Tradition: ‘A behaviour pattern transmitted repeatedly through social learning to become a population-level characteristic’.</ref>, language<ref>The forces affecting language and the evolution which a language continually undergoes are covered, with historical changes in spellings, meanings, and sounds traced in some detail.</ref>, computer software<ref>Coping with huge amounts of data is one of the major problems in the context of software evolution.</ref><ref>We describe GEVOL, a system that visualizes the evolution of software using a novel graph drawing technique for visualization of large graphs with a temporal component.</ref>, technology<ref>This paper draws on an evolutionary theory of economic growth that brings together appreciative theorizing regarding growth and formal theorizing.</ref>, knowledge<ref>The analysis of the evolution of knowledge is distinguished from standard economics and neoDarwinian biology; it combines purpose with the impossibility of empirical proof.</ref><ref>Nursing Research has made a significant contribution in disseminating the body of tested knowledge related to the health disparities experienced by vulnerable populations and the methodologies associated with vulnerable populations research.</ref>, automation<ref>The paper covers the evolution of drilling mechanization and automation from the mid-nineteenth century to today.</ref>, and so on. A quick web search for information about the evolution of any such thing should provide plenty of reference material.

Probably the most well known type of evolution, accumulation of hereditary modification<ref>From these considerations, I shall devote the first chapter of this Abstract to Variation under Domestication. We shall thus see that a large amount of hereditary modification is at least possible, and, what is equally or more important, we shall see how great is the power of man in accumulating by his Selection successive slight variations.</ref>, also known as descent with modification, causes the accumulation of change in the ] ] of ] ]s over successive ]s. Such evolutionary processes give rise to diversity at every level of ], including the ] of species, individual ]s and ] such as ] and ]s.<ref name="Hall08">{{harvnb|Hall|Hallgrímsson|2008|pp=3–5}}</ref>

...There's nothing off topic about any of that, nor was it poorly written, nor was it poorly references, so why was it deleted?

This is what it is being reverted to...

'''Evolution''' is the change in the ] ] of ] ]s over successive ]s. Evolutionary processes give rise to diversity at every level of ], including the ] of species, individual ]s and ] such as ] and ]s.<ref name="Hall08">{{harvnb|Hall|Hallgrímsson|2008|pp=3–5}}</ref>

...again, that paragraph is NOT about "evolution". It is, as I stated in my additions, about "accumulation of hereditary modification". That is a SUBSET of "evolution", and should be given its own page, if it can't be seen with an actual description of what "evolution" is.
] (]) 00:40, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
'''References'''
<references/>

=== Where's the evolution page belong? ===

Why is the ] page for evolution in biology, or "biological evolution", rather than about the subject of evolution? Shouldn't the ] or ] page be for such topics, if there is something wrong with treating them as part of the subject of evolution? Embryos evolve into babies, who evolve into children, who evolve into adults, who evolve into old people, all through the process of the accumulation of change. That is as much BIOLOGICAL evolution as evolution through descent with modification is... but I see no place for such information on that "biological evolution" page disguised as an "evolution" page. Now, how should I treat that? Can I make a suggestion? I don't even know where one would go! So I edited the page, to try to make it actually about the topic it's named after, and the response I got did not feel at all like a community treating me as a member. It felt like being attacked. So if my response to feeling like I've been attacked isn't the greatest, please forgive me.... but I have NO IDEA how to correct what I see as a MAJOR PROBLEM in that page.... especially since correcting it seems to be off limits. Should it be? Really?

I would think that a Misplaced Pages page about ] should be allowed to evolve... Especially with all the damage being done out there by people claiming that evolution doesn't happen. Are we trying to make them right? I hope not.

Speaking of evolution, I had added the following short paragraph, saved the changes... somehow apparently inadvertently then deleted those same changes, and then wrote the above paragraph to replace the one below, which I thought was just lost... but turned out to be in the revision history...

It seems to me that the evolution page should be allowed to evolve. Especially considering the damage being done to human society by people claiming that evolution doesn't happen. Well... it happened, and it got reverted.

So does anyone read this? Or an I typing all of this for nothing? This whole page is like a big wall of text, and the references in the quotes I posted are showing up at the bottom... forcing the text that would OTHERWISE be at the bottom to scroll up. Is it perhaps time for wikis to evolve?

] (]) 01:29, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
:Many people, I imagine, have this page on their watchlist. This page is about biological evolution, as has been explained to you. Please don't take the reverts personally. Learning how things work around here can be somewhat daunting at times. ] (]) 01:50, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm not taking it personally. I'm taking it as an attack against humanity. Yes, it has been explained that the "evolution" page is not about "evolution" but about "biological evolution". So I added information about how "biological evolution" is a subset of "evolution" and that got deleted ALSO!
] (]) 04:49, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
::Before you continue, DonaldKronos, please to explain explicitly how reverting, with explanations, your edits is an "attack on humanity." Last I checked, undoing a contentious edit is nothing like the other "attacks on humanity" I'm aware of, like, say, setting up and running concentration camps, flying aircraft into buildings or filling subways up with nerve gas on behalf of an insane spiritualist.--] (]) 05:00, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

:{{u|DonaldKronos}} Would it not be more prudent to make a page discussing non-colloquial/broader definitions of evolution beyond biological evolution?--] (]) 03:14, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it would make sense, except that there is nothing non-colloquial about "evolution". The fact that "biological evolution" is on the "evolution" page isn't bad. The fact that "evolution" is not on the "evolution" page, is ridiculous, and that "biological evolution" is not on the "biological evolution" page, is also ridiculous!
] (]) 04:49, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
::Um, yeah, I hate to break it to you, but, ridiculous hyperbole isn't very convincing.--] (]) 04:52, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
::See the italicised header: ''This article is about evolution in biology. For other uses, see ].'' The various usages you're trying to squeeze in are covered in ] and ]. . . ], ] 06:16, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
::::], how can this page be an attack on human beings when human beings are biological creatures, very much subject to pressures of both natural and artificial selection. You have made a pretty serious accusation, what next, a war crimes tribunal for wikipedia editors (for the attack on humanity). If you had a good póint you have lost it in an avalanche of hyperbole. ♫ ] ] ] 03:24, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::And hey ], I have tried to address your concerns at ]. Perhaps you and maybe other editors too might wish to chip in there before I change that disambig page. That, not this article, is where IMO any changes that are required should be happening. ♫ ] ] ] 03:44, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
::::::Thanks, ]. Yes, ], I agree that ] and ] are where to address your concerns. ] (]) 07:43, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

==Being bold==
I am ] and making changes to the opening, including the opening sentence. My aim has been to remove dabs and thus increase and improve content, but I havent really changed any content other than to add the direct links and link to them in a way which matches the articles being linked to. And some dabs, such as dabbing the very interesting looking article on evolutionary anthropology so it appeared to link to the much less interesting, from our persepctive as readers of this article, generic article on anthropology, were misplaced IMO. We also have an intro article to make evolution simple and thus IMO dabbing say phenotype traits to characteristics was not appropriate, we would never do such a thing when explaining maths and it doesnt help our goal to educate people generally about biology to be doing this kind of dabbing. ♫ ] ] ] 02:47, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

:Thanks ] for being bold and moving this forward. Now just a few refinements. Fixing lede sentence "...] integrated ] with Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection...". ] (]) 07:42, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

:Another refinement for clarity of lede sentence structure: "In the mid 19th century ] was the first to formulate an argument for the ] of evolution by means of ], published in his book '']''." ] (]) 13:57, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

==Inappropriate discussion==
I have removed the discussion regarding other editors as it is not appropriate for an article talk page. Since this is linked from ] I am noting that the removed section is ]. When the ANI discussion is closed, this section can be removed as redundant. ] (]) 07:07, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

== Correspondence of content in body and lede ==

The lede of Misplaced Pages articles serves as an introduction and to summarize the content of the article (]). There is a tendency to add content to the lede that is not supported in the body of the article, as the case for this recent addition:

:''"Although more than 99 percent of all species that ever lived on the planet are estimated to be extinct,<ref name="StearnsStearns1999">{{harvnb|Stearns|Stearns|1999|p=x}}</ref> there are currently 10—14 million ] of ] on the Earth.<ref name="MillerSpoolman2012">{{harvnb|Miller|Spoolman|2012|p=65}}</ref> "''

], ], or others, could you help remedy this, by adding this first to the body? This could perhaps be expanded as a more complete overview of biodiversity, and then appropriately summarized in the lede. Note that citations should be body text, and are not necessary in the lede, except for cases such as controversy or quoted passages. Note this non-correspondence with the body is an issue in other parts of the lede, and needs cleaning up. Also note that various important aspects of the body are not summarized in the lede. I'm not advocating for a longer lede, just better written and following ], perhaps even shorter once rewritten. Thanks. ] (]) 17:19, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
{{reflist}}
::Your right on all points ...perhaps to "Origin of life" section or "Natural selection"....as both the main articles mention this point in a round about way. I see that Drbogdan has added this point to a few articles so we dont have to worry the point will be missed if its not in the lead..... that said it is a very interesting fact and would be of interest to a wide audience. -- ] (]) 17:38, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
:::FWIW - Thanks for the comments - Yes - I agree all around as well - and have no objection to adjusting and/or extending the text/refs as suggested - in any case - Thanks again for the comments - and - Enjoy! :) ] (]) 17:47, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Content of the lede does not currently summarize various important evolutionary concepts from the article's body. First, I propose that ] and ] mechanisms be introduced up front, in particular ] and ] arising from ], ] and ], and ], as well as ], ], and ], with the following text in the first paragraph:

:Evolution results as ] operates on heritable variation within a population. Variation ultimately arises from ], and novel variation is continually exposed by ], ], and ]. These ] processes give rise to ] processes of formation of new species (]), change within species (]), and loss of species (]).

] (]) 12:06, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

:Quite frankly, in all my long years in biological science, I have never, ever heard the words "microevolution" and "macroevolution" from a fellow scientist. The term is not very much in use, and when it is used, the distinction is a lot more fuzzy and vague than you propose. The terms merely refer to evolution over shorter or longer lengths of time, whatever that may mean to the particular scientist in question.

:Sorry, I don't find either of those terms useful for understanding the topic, and potentially confusing because of their widespread misuse in the fringe literature, where you often encounter absurd statements like "I believe in microevolution, but not macroevolution". ] (]) 12:31, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

::I agrree with ] ..plus we should keep the wording dumbed down a bit as per ] -- ] (]) 13:57, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
::::BRIEF Followup - () - in any case - Enjoy! :) ] (]) 14:39, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::Thanks. Yes, readability is important, no matter what the consensus is about content. ] (]) 16:07, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
::In terms of "microevolution" and "macroevolution": The term “macroevolution" was originally used in 1927 by by Russian biologist Lurii Filipchenko, and developed in contrast with "microevolution" by framers of the modern synthesis, in particular Theodosius Dobzhansky, Ernst Mayr, and George Gaylord Simpson. Mayr (1942) emphasized that "there is only a difference in degree, not in kind" between microevolution and macroevolution (as ] aptly points out above) and that “all the processes and phenomena of macroevolution and the origin of higher categories can be traced back to intraspecific variation”. Dobzhansky expounded that “there is no way towards understanding of the mechanisms of macroevolutionary changes, which require time on geologic scales, other than through an understanding of microevolutionary processes", and concluded that “‘microevolution’ and ‘macroevolution’ are relative terms and have only descriptive meaning; they imply no difference in the underlying causal agencies”. (Dobzhansky 1953). At first Simpson argued for macroevolution as a distinct process, but came into agreement with Mayr and Dozhansky. All found the distinction useful, the terms became commonly used in evolutionary biology literature and textbooks, and later evolutionary biologists still commonly use the terms (yes, in print, and in my experience, which is also extensive over many years -- reliable written sources are what matters here). I favor introducing the terms cleanly for clarity. ] (]) 14:00, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
:::Note that currently ] is used later in the lede, while ] is not. I still think that these terms should be introduced in the appropriate place, but perhaps in a sentence like this: "The terms ] and ], refer, respectively, to evolutionary processes over shorter time scale (natural selection, mutation, gene flow, and genetic drift) vs longer time scales (speciation, anagenesis, and extinction)." ] (]) 16:50, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

The main point here is that the lede should introduce and summarize the article, which emphasizes evolutionary processes, and these evolutionary processes should be up front: 1) natural selection, mutation, gene flow, and genetic drift, along with heritable variation, sexual reproduction and genetic recombination; and 2) speciation, anagenesis, and extinction. What do people think about this alternative to the last sentence proposed above?
: Over time these evolutionary processes lead to formation of new species (]), change within species (]), and loss of species (]).
Again, the main point of the proposed addition is to introduce and summarize the text about evolutionary processes and the importance of variation. ] (]) 16:42, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

:My objection was to using the words "microevolution" and "macroevolution". Doing so would not help the reader understand the topic any better, and would more likely confuse them into thinking that there is some difference between them rather than just the time scale. Again, the misuse of these terms by fringe proponents also gives me serious reason to avoid using the terms altogether.

:Otherwise, I generally do prefer ledes to be as terse as possible, without the level of detail that you seem to prefer, especially in the form of a list of jargon terminology. However, that is a matter of editorial taste, and it wouldn't bother all that much, especially if you find support from other editors. Good luck! ] (]) 16:55, 31 December 2014 (UTC)


== FAQ Problem ==
::Thanks ]. Your points are well taken, especially concerning fringe misuse of terms, and terse ledes. From my perspective, the organization of the article can be improved for clarity and completeness, and the lede can be rewritten accordingly. Your input is greatly appreciated. ] (]) 17:45, 31 December 2014 (UTC)


The FAQ section for the explanation as to observed evolution links to an article about a flower that doesn't include evidence supporting that view. Find a better article. ] (]) 08:32, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:::As is yours. You're welcome. The pleasure was all mine. Good luck! ] (]) 18:15, 31 December 2014 (UTC)


:I'd suggest reading the article again.<span style="color:Purple">''' - '''</span>]<span style="color:Purple">'''. '''</span><sub>]</sub> 19:53, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
==Link dabs==
What is the justification for reverting the link undabbing I have been doing? Why for instance is it better to appear to link to the article on molecules rather than openly link to the article on molecular evolution. This kind of dumbing down and confusing the reader is not what dab links exist for, they excist in order to grammatically insert links. ♫ ] ] ] 23:10, 31 December 2014 (UTC)


== Strange non-sequitur comment ==
== Suggestion for Improved Accuracy ==


“The debate over Darwin's ideas did not generate significant controversy in China.” Why is this odd comment slapped onto the end of the intro? Sounds like couched nationalism to me. ] (]) 01:10, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
I'm suggesting the following change, simply for the sake of improving the accuracy of the page's opening statement.


::It's also the last sentence in the article, and sounds weird there too.] (]) 22:51, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
Where is now says... '''Evolution''' is the change in ] ] traits of biological ]s over successive ]s.
:::That's a large academic study summarized in a sentence. If you want to ], you could read the paper in full (it is available via ] or ]) and add a fuller account. Misplaced Pages should cover details from all over the world, so Chinese reactions to the theory should not simply be ignored. ] (]) 13:32, 8 September 2024 (UTC)


== Advice On Working With Students ==
I suggest it be changed to say... In the context of biology, '''evolution''' is the change in ] ] traits of biological ]s over successive ]s.


Greetings
My reasoning is that even though it is stated that this page is about ''evolution in biology'' many people coming to the page will have found it by searching for '''evolution''' and will read that opening statement without having read the italicized qualifier above it.
I am a professor attempting to show students how to edit and do research using Misplaced Pages. I am curious if others have done this and if they found ways to help students understand better what information is relevant and what information is not. ] (]) 18:43, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
* Hi - and are very useful links for teachers and professors looking to educate their students on how Misplaced Pages works. ] 19:12, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
*:Thank you so much! ] (]) 02:08, 2 January 2024 (UTC)


:@]: There's no easy way to tell what information on Misplaced Pages is relevant and there's no easy way to tell whether the information is accurate or not. If you want to use this article (Evolution) as an example, you could ask your students to look at the section on epigenetics and discuss whether it correctly represents the current views on the importance of epigenetics in evolution. Is epigenetic inheritance a significant phenomenon?
Discussion?
:You could also ask them to read the Gould and Lewontin ] paper, which is a critique of the adaptationist view in evolutionary biology. Many evolutionary biologists think that this is one of the most important papers in evolution but it isn't mentioned anywhere in this article.


:There's also no reference to Richard Dawkins in spite of the fact that he's the best known popularizer of evolution. That should generate a good discussion about relevance and Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 16:22, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
] (]) 23:58, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
::This is fantastic! Thank you :) ] (]) 02:18, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
== "]" listed at ] ==
]
The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 February 4#Theroy of Evolution}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:RFDNote --> ] (]) 19:39, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

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? view · edit Frequently asked questions

Many of these questions are rephrased objections to evolution that users have argued should be included in the text of Evolution. The reason for their exclusion is discussed below.

The main points of this FAQ can be summarized as:

  • The process and theory of evolution are both uncontroversial among biologists.
  • Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view requires that minority views not be given undue emphasis.
  • Therefore it is against Misplaced Pages policy for views without scientific support, such as all known objections to evolution, to be interjected into a science article like Evolution.

More detail is given on each of these points, and other common questions and objections, below.

To view the response to a question, click the link to the right of the question.

Q1: Why won't you add criticisms or objections to evolution in the Evolution article? A1: This is essentially mandated by Misplaced Pages's official neutral point of view policy. This policy requires that articles treat views on various subjects proportionally to those views' mainstream acceptance in the appropriate academic field. For example, if two contradictory views in physics are held by roughly an equal number of physicists, then Misplaced Pages should give those views "equal time". On the other hand, if one view is held by 99% of physicists and the other by 1%, then Misplaced Pages should favor the former view throughout its physics articles; the latter view should receive little, if any, coverage. To do otherwise would require, for example, that we treat belief in a Flat Earth as being equal to other viewpoints on the figure of the Earth.

Due to the enormous mainstream scientific consensus in support of modern evolutionary theory, and pursuant to Misplaced Pages's aforementioned policies, the Evolution article references evolution as an observable natural process and as the valid explanation for the diversity of life on Earth. Although there are indeed opposing views to evolution, such as Creationism, none of these views have any support in the relevant field (biology), and therefore Misplaced Pages cannot, and should not, treat these opposing views as being significant to the science of evolution. On the other hand, they may be very significant to sociological articles on the effects of evolutionary theory on religious and cultural beliefs; this is why sociological and historical articles such as Rejection of evolution by religious groups give major coverage to these opposing views, while biological articles such as Evolution do not.

Further information: Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view § Undue weight Q2: Evolution is controversial, so why won't you teach the controversy? A2: As noted above, evolution is at best only controversial in social areas like politics and religion. The fact that evolution occurs and the ability of modern evolutionary theory to explain why it occurs are not controversial amongst biologists. Indeed, numerous respectable scientific societies, such as the American Association for the Advancement of Science and the National Academy of Sciences, have issued statements supporting evolution and denouncing creationism and/or ID. In 1987 only about 0.15% of American Earth and life scientists supported creationism.

Thus, as a consequence of Misplaced Pages's policies, it is necessary to treat evolution as mainstream scientific consensus treats it: an uncontroversial fact that has an uncontested and accurate explanation in evolutionary theory. There are no scientifically supported "alternatives" for this view.

However, while the overall theory of evolution is not controversial in that it is the only widely-accepted scientific theory for the diversity of life on Earth, certain aspects of the theory are controversial or disputed in that there actually are significant disagreements regarding them among biologists. These lesser controversies, such as over the rate of evolution, the importance of various mechanisms such as the neutral theory of molecular evolution, or the relevance of the gene-centered view of evolution, are, in fact, covered extensively in Misplaced Pages's science articles. However, most are too technical to warrant a great deal of discussion on the top-level article Evolution. They are very different from the creation–evolution controversy, however, in that they amount to scientific disputes, not religious ones.

Further information: Teach the Controversy and Level of support for evolution Q3: Why is evolution described as though it's a fact? Isn't evolution just a theory? A3: That depends on if you use the words evolution, theory, and fact in their scientific or their colloquial sense. Unfortunately, all of these words have at least two meanings. For example, evolution can either refer to an observed process (covered at evolution), or, as a shorthand for evolutionary theory, to the explanation for that process (covered at modern evolutionary synthesis). To avoid confusion between these two meanings, when the theory of evolution, rather than the process/fact of evolution, is being discussed, this will usually be noted by explicitly using the word theory.

Evolution is not a theory in the sense used on Evolution; rather, it is a fact. This is because the word evolution is used here to refer to the observed process of the genetic composition of populations changing over successive generations. Because this is simply an observation, it is considered a fact.

Fact has two different meanings: in colloquial usage, it refers to any well-supported proposition; in scientific usage, it refers to a confirmed observation. For example, in the scientific sense, "apples fall if you drop them" is a fact, but "apples fall if you drop them because of a curvature in spacetime" is a theory. Gravity can thus either refer to a fact (the observation that objects are attracted to each other) or a theory (general relativity, which is the explanation for this fact). Evolution is the same way. As a fact, evolution is an observed biological process; as a theory, it is the explanation for this process. What adds to this confusion is that the theory of evolution is also sometimes called a "fact", in the colloquial sense—that is, to emphasize how well supported it is.

When evolution is shorthand for "evolutionary theory", evolution is indeed a theory. However, phrasing this as "just a theory" is misleading. Theory has two different meanings: in colloquial usage, it refers to a conjecture or guess; in scientific usage, it refers to a well-supported explanation or model for observed phenomena. Evolution is a theory in the latter sense, not in the former. Thus, it is a theory in the same sense that gravity and plate tectonics are theories. The currently accepted theory of evolution is known as the modern evolutionary synthesis.

Further information: Evolution as fact and theory Q4: But isn't evolution unproven? A4: Once again, this depends on how one is defining the terms proof and proven. Proof has two meanings: in logic and mathematics, it refers to an argument or demonstration showing that a proposition is completely certain and logically necessary; in other uses, proof refers to the establishment and accumulation of experimental evidence to a degree at which it lends overwhelming support to a proposition. Therefore, a proven proposition in the mathematical sense is one which is formally known to be true, while a proven proposition in the more general sense is one which is widely held to be true because the evidence strongly indicates that this is so ("beyond all reasonable doubt", in legal language).

In the first sense, the whole of evolutionary theory is not proven with absolute certainty, but there are mathematical proofs in evolutionary theory. However, nothing in the natural sciences can be proven in the first sense: empirical claims such as those in science cannot ever be absolutely certain, because they always depend on a finite set of facts that have been studied relative to the unproven assumptions of things stirring in the infinite complexity of the world around us. Evolutionary science pushes the threshold of discovery into the unknown. To call evolution "unproven" in this sense is technically correct, but meaningless, because propositions like "the Earth revolves around the Sun" and even "the Earth exists" are equally unproven. Absolute proof is only possible for a priori propositions like "1 + 1 = 2" or "all bachelors are unmarried men", which do not depend on any experience or evidence, but rather on definition.

In the second sense, on the other hand, evolutionary theory is indeed "proven". This is because evolution is extremely well supported by the evidence, has made testable confirmed predictions, etc. For more information, see Evidence of evolution.

Main article: Evidence of evolution Q5: Has evolution ever been observed? A5: Evolution, as a fact, is the gradual change in forms of life over several billion years. In contrast, the field of evolutionary biology is less than 200 years old. So it is not surprising that scientists did not directly observe, for example, the gradual change over tens of millions of years of land mammals to whales. However, there are other ways to "observe" evolution in action.

Scientists have directly observed and tested small changes in forms of life in laboratories, particularly in organisms that breed rapidly, such as bacteria and fruit flies. A famous experiment was developed in 1992 that traced bacterial evolution with precision in a lab. This experiment has subsequently been used to test the accuracy and robustness of methods used in reconstructing the evolutionary history of other organisms with great success. Evolution has also been observed in the field, such as in the plant Oenothera lamarckiana which gave rise to the new species Oenothera gigas, in the Italian Wall Lizard, and in Darwin's finches.

Scientists have observed significant changes in forms of life in the fossil record. From these direct observations scientists have been able to make inferences regarding the evolutionary history of life. Such inferences are also common to all fields of science. For example, the neutron has never been observed, but all the available data supports the neutron model.

The inferences upon which evolution is based have been tested by the study of more recently discovered fossils, the science of genetics, and other methods. For example, critics once challenged the inference that land mammals evolved into whales. However, later fossil discoveries illustrated the pathway of whale evolution. So, although the entire evolutionary history of life has not been directly observed, all available data supports the fact of evolution.

Main article: Evidence of evolution Q6: Why is microevolution equated with macroevolution? A6: The article doesn't equate the two, but merely recognizes that they are largely or entirely the same process, just on different timescales. The great majority of modern evolutionary biologists consider macroevolution to simply be microevolution on a larger timescale; all fields of science accept that small ("micro") changes can accumulate to produce large ("macro") differences, given enough time. Most of the topics covered in the evolution article are basic enough to not require an appeal to the micro/macro distinction. Consequently, the two terms are not equated, but simply not dealt with much.

A more nuanced version of the claim that evolution has never been observed is to claim that microevolution has been directly observed, while macroevolution has not. However, that is not the case, as speciations, which are generally seen as the benchmark for macroevolution, have been observed in a number of instances.

Further information: Microevolution and Macroevolution Q7: What about the scientific evidence against evolution? A7: To be frank, there isn't any. Most claimed "evidence against evolution" is either a distortion of the actual facts of the matter, or an example of something that hasn't been explained yet. The former is erroneous, as it is based on incorrect claims. The latter, on the other hand, even when accurate, is irrelevant. The fact that not everything is fully understood doesn't make a certain proposition false; that is an example of the argument from ignorance logical fallacy. Examples of claimed evidence against evolution:
  1. There aren't any transitional fossils, or there aren't enough.
    There are many transitional fossils, including Archaeopteryx (earliest and most primitive bird known), Thrinaxodon (a cat-sized mammal-like "reptile"), Tiktaalik (fish with many features akin to those of four-legged animals), Acanthostega (first vertebrate animal to have recognizable limbs), and Ambulocetus (early whale that could walk as well as swim). See also List of transitional fossils. That there are not more is explained by the rarity of fossilization and by punctuated equilibrium. Furthermore, technically all fossils are transitional fossils, because no species is fixed and unchanging. For example, you can argue that Homo erectus is a transitional fossil between Homo sapiens and Homo habilis. But in the same line of thought, you can say Homo habilis is a transitional fossil between A. afarensis and Homo erectus, and so on.
  2. Evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics, "the entropy of an isolated system not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium".
    Organisms are not isolated systems. Rather, they are open systems; they exchange energy with their environment, and thus their entropy can either increase or decrease. Specifically, the main fuel source for evolution is the Sun, which is continually adding energy to the Earth ecosystem. See also Entropy and life.
  3. Evolution can't create "irreducibly complex" structures like the eye, or the bacterial flagellum.
    Both the vertebrate eye and the bacterial flagellum are well understood to have evolved from simpler structures. Indeed, simpler eye-like structures (such as the sea squirt's ocellus) can still be found in existing species. Complex biological traits can also evolve as exaptations, where ancestral structures that evolved for different reasons become coopted for new functions. "Irreducible complexity" is, in any case, neither a scientific concept nor a coherent argument: A less than full understanding of the evolutionary history of a biological structure is not evidence against evolution, any more than a less than full understanding of the gravitational orbit of every astronomical body is evidence against gravity. The empirical evidence for evolution is substantial, whereas no evidence has ever been provided for irreducible complexity.
  4. Evolution can't create new information.
    New information is created every time a mutation occurs. Even random "noise" is a form of information. (This random information is then non-randomly propagated by natural selection.) Examples of the evolution of completely new information include the enzymes of nylon-eating bacteria, which can digest nylon, a polymer that didn't exist before 1935.
With regard to the Misplaced Pages Evolution article, if there is any evidence against evolution, it has yet to be accepted by any peer-reviewed scientific publication. This means that even if every editor on Misplaced Pages knew that there was evidence against evolution, we could not add that information to the article without violating Misplaced Pages's official policies of no original research and neutral point of view. Whether editors think that evolution has evidence against it or not is irrelevant; what matters are the noteworthy scientific views on this issue. Q8: How could life arise by chance? A8: If by "arise", one means "develop from non-organic matter through abiogenesis", then this is a question that is not answered by evolutionary theory. Evolution only deals with the development of pre-existing life, not with how that life first came to be. The fact that life evolves is not dependent upon the origin of life any more than the fact that objects gravitate towards other objects is dependent upon the Big Bang.

On the other hand, if by "arise" one means "evolve into the organisms alive today", then the simple answer is: it didn't. Evolution does not occur "by chance". Rather, evolution occurs through natural selection, which is a non-random process. Although mutation is random, natural selection favors mutations that have specific properties—the selection is therefore not random. Natural selection occurs because organisms with favored characteristics survive and reproduce more than ones without favored characteristics, and if these characteristics are heritable they will mechanically increase in frequency over generations. Although some evolutionary phenomena, such as genetic drift, are indeed random, these processes do not produce adaptations in organisms.

If the substance of this objection is that evolution seems implausible, that it's hard to imagine how life could develop by natural processes, then this is an invalid argument from ignorance. Something does not need to be intuitive or easy to grasp in order to be true. See also Past discussions

For further information, see the numerous past discussions on these topics in the archives of Talk:Evolution:

The article is not neutral. It doesn't mention that evolution is controversial.

The article should mention alternative views prominently, such as in a criticism section.

Evolution is just a theory, not a fact.

There is scientific evidence against evolution.

References
  1. See List of scientific societies rejecting intelligent design.
  2. As reported in Newsweek magazine, 29 June 1987, Page 23: "By one count there are some 700 scientists with respectable academic credentials (out of a total of 480,000 U.S. Earth and life scientists) who give credence to creation-science..." See also Public beliefs about evolution and creation, Robinson, B. A. 1995. for a discussion on acceptance of evolution.
  3. ^ The Origin of Whales and the Power of Independent Evidence
  4. Dobzhansky T, Pavlovsky O (1971). "An experimentally created incipient species of Drosophila". Nature. 230 (5292): 289–292. doi:10.1038/230289a0. PMID 5549403.
  5. DM Hillis; JJ Bull; ME White; MR Badgett; IJ Molineux (1992). "Experimental phylogenetics: generation of a known phylogeny". Science. 255 (5044): 589–592. doi:10.1126/science.1736360. PMID 1736360.
  6. Crandall, K. (1994). "Intraspecific cladogram estimation: Accuracy at higher levels of divergence" (PDF). Systematic Biology. 43 (2): 222–235.
  7. Gates, Reginald Ruggles (September 1909). "The Behavior of the Chromosomes in Oenothera lata x O. gigas". Botanical Gazette. 48 (3): 179–199. doi:10.1086/329990. JSTOR 2467513.
  8. Herrel, A.; Huyghe, K.; Vanhooydonck, B.; Backeljau, T.; Breugelmans, K.; Grbac, I.; Van Damme, R.; Irschick, D. J. (2008). "Rapid large-scale evolutionary divergence in morphology and performance associated with exploitation of a different dietary resource". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. 105 (12): 4792–5. doi:10.1073/pnas.0711998105. PMC 2290806. PMID 18344323.
  9. Cressey, Daniel (2009). "Darwin's finches tracked to reveal evolution in action". Nature. doi:10.1038/news.2009.1089.
  10. Hunt, Kathleen (1997). Transitional Vertebrate Fossils FAQ. TalkOrigins Archive.
  11. Elsberry, Wesley R. (1998). Missing links still missing!?
  12. Lambert, Frank (2002). "Disorder — A Cracked Crutch For Supporting Entropy Discussions". Journal of Chemical Education. 79: 187–192. Retrieved 15 July 2015.
  13. Does Life On Earth Violate the Second Law of Thermodynamics?
  14. Lamb, Trevor D.; Collin, Shaun P.; Pugh, Jr, Edward N. (2007), "Evolution of the vertebrate eye: opsins, photoreceptors, retina and eye cup", Nature Reviews Neuroscience, 8: 960–976
  15. Isaak, Mark (2005). Index to Creationist Claims, Claim CB200: Irreducible complexity. TalkOrigins Archive.
  16. Robison, Keith (1996). Darwin's Black Box: Irreducible Complexity or Irreproducible Irreducibility?. TalkOrigins Archive.
  17. Musgrave, Ian & Baldwin, Rich, et al (2005). Information Theory and Creationism. TalkOrigins Archive.
  18. "Evolution and Information: The Nylon Bug". New Mexicans for Science and Reason.
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WarningWARNING: This is not the place to discuss any alleged controversy or opinion about evolution and its related subjects. This page is for discussing improvements to the article, which is about evolution (not creation science, not creationism, and not intelligent design to name a few), and what has been presented in peer-reviewed scientific literature about it. See Misplaced Pages:No original research and Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines. Some common points of argument are addressed in the FAQ above, which represents the consensus of editors here. If you are interested in discussing or debating over evolution itself, you may want to visit talk.origins or elsewhere.
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This article was reviewed by The Denver Post on April 30, 2007.
Comments: "good," even if "stylistic infelicities abound."; "a fine introduction"; "source list appropriate, and well-rounded." Please examine the findings.(Note - this review prompted the drive to bring the article back to FA.)
For more information about external reviews of Misplaced Pages articles and about this review in particular, see this page.
This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.
More archives: Talk:Evolution/Archived subpages, Special:PrefixIndex/Evolution/, Special:PrefixIndex/Talk:Evolution/, Special:PrefixIndex/Talk:Misunderstandings about evolution/


FAQ Problem

The FAQ section for the explanation as to observed evolution links to an article about a flower that doesn't include evidence supporting that view. Find a better article. 2405:6580:D420:5C00:483D:F518:3E09:635D (talk) 08:32, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

I'd suggest reading the article again. - Sumanuil. (talk to me) 19:53, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Strange non-sequitur comment

“The debate over Darwin's ideas did not generate significant controversy in China.” Why is this odd comment slapped onto the end of the intro? Sounds like couched nationalism to me. Alexandermoir (talk) 01:10, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

It's also the last sentence in the article, and sounds weird there too.Newzild (talk) 22:51, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
That's a large academic study summarized in a sentence. If you want to be bold, you could read the paper in full (it is available via JSTOR or The Misplaced Pages Library) and add a fuller account. Misplaced Pages should cover details from all over the world, so Chinese reactions to the theory should not simply be ignored. Mike Turnbull (talk) 13:32, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Advice On Working With Students

Greetings I am a professor attempting to show students how to edit and do research using Misplaced Pages. I am curious if others have done this and if they found ways to help students understand better what information is relevant and what information is not. Lady3Eye (talk) 18:43, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

@Lady3Eye: There's no easy way to tell what information on Misplaced Pages is relevant and there's no easy way to tell whether the information is accurate or not. If you want to use this article (Evolution) as an example, you could ask your students to look at the section on epigenetics and discuss whether it correctly represents the current views on the importance of epigenetics in evolution. Is epigenetic inheritance a significant phenomenon?
You could also ask them to read the Gould and Lewontin "Spandrels" paper, which is a critique of the adaptationist view in evolutionary biology. Many evolutionary biologists think that this is one of the most important papers in evolution but it isn't mentioned anywhere in this article.
There's also no reference to Richard Dawkins in spite of the fact that he's the best known popularizer of evolution. That should generate a good discussion about relevance and Misplaced Pages. Genome42 (talk) 16:22, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
This is fantastic! Thank you :) Lady3Eye (talk) 02:18, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

"Theroy of Evolution" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Theroy of Evolution has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 February 4 § Theroy of Evolution until a consensus is reached. Bearcat (talk) 19:39, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

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