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			== Lead changes ==
	== View and Philosophy of Dzogchen ==

			This seems to be missing a refutation to appreciate the deletions intent. It can be restored. ] (]) 14:51, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

			== Merger proposal ==

			I propose that ] be merged into ]/]. "Maha Ati" is merely a (recently-coined) synonym for Ati yoga / Dzogchen. ] (]) 14:39, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

			* '''Support''' ] -] 15:16, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
			* '''Yes''' it happened here too in a stub without reference. ] (]) 02:07, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
			* '''Support'''. This seems good and useful. Yes. Best, ] (]) 22:07, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

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			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 07:49, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

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	There seems to be quite a bit in this article on the practice of Dzogchen - but very little on the view and philosophy of Dzogchen, which are very important and influential in the whole history of Tibetan Buddhist thought. I'll add some good sources on these aspects, which editors of this article might wish to pursue. Regards. ] (]) 12:49, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

	~~:{{ping\|CFynn}} Those sources would still be very welcome!~~ ] -] 09:06, 23 ~~December~~ ~~2014~~ (UTC)		Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 09:06, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

	== ~~Longchen~~ ~~Nyingthig~~ ==		== External links modified ==

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	Vic, it's not a matter of "singling out" some specific teaching, it's a matter of trying to understand what Dzogchen is about. Not everybody can understand it with the minimal resurces that you need. If there is better stuff, then please give me a shortcut (an not a 700-page book. And you know who says so; you know I ''read'' that kind of books.) Best regards, ] -] 21:31, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
	:All newbies seem to only know about Longchen Nyingthig, and you are perpetuating that.]<sup>]</sup> 21:36, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
	::Ah, I see - and no more than that. Where do have to situate Longchen Nyingthig within Dzogchen? And do you ''please'' have some more info, a book, a weblink, which provides me with a little bit more info? This is what I've understood so far: external prelimininary practices, internal preliminary practices (these two are clear to me), trekcho, further practice to stabilise this insight, and to 'act from this insight', c.q enlightened behaviour ''in'' the world, instead of "dwelling in nirvana." Am I correct here, sort of? Best regards, ] -] 05:07, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

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	== Sources - Berzin Archive ==
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	{{ping\|VictoriaGrayson}} I'm pretty sure you won't accept the Berzin Archive] as a source. Nevertheless, I want to propose it, since this article on '''' gives an overview of the path of Dzogchen. He gives the following structure:
	* Outer Preliminaries
	* Inner Preliminaries
	* Empowerment Stage
	* Mahayoga Stage
	* Atiyoga Stage
	How about it? Best regards, ] -] 15:18, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
	:He's a scholar, but also a practitioner. His website seems to be written from an insiders-perspective. See . Nevertheless, is it acceptable as a primary source? ] -] 15:21, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

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	== Sources - Longchen Rabjam ''The practcie of Dzogchen'' ==

	~~{{ping\|VictoriaGrayson}}Is Longchen Rabjam's '''' a good source? (I've got the Snow Lion version).~~ ] -] 15:27, 22 December ~~2014~~ (UTC)		Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 16:16, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

			== Could this material be useful here or on a related page? ==
	== Mahayoga is not Dzogchen ==

			Hi Dzogchen editors,
	{{yo\|Joshua Jonathan}}, I don't know how you got the idea that Mahayoga is Dzogchen.]<sup>]</sup> 01:03, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
	:Yo? That's a new tag for me. Anyway: Berzin uses the term in his description of the stages of practice, and Sam van Schaik mentions Atiyoga as part of Mahayoga, at the earliest developmental stage of Dzogchen:
	::''"So when did Atiyoga become a vehicle? Moving on to the 10th century, there are a couple of texts from Dunhuang which do set out early versions of the nine vehicle system. Yet even here, though we see the beginnings of the standard distinctions between Mahāyoga, Anuyoga and Atiyoga, these three are not yet called ‘vehicles’. The texts carry on presenting Anuyoga and Atiyoga as modes of Mahāyoga practice, without any specific content of their own." ''
	:I'm working on it; encyclopedic entries by Buswell & Lopez and by Germano have yet to be incorporated, and a longer text by Sam van Schaik, ''. Best regards, ] -] 05:51, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
	:::Forget about the "earliest developmental stage". Mahayoga is not Dzogchen.]<sup>]</sup> 16:21, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

			The material below currently exists on the ] page. It is hard to justify having this long historical overview only to conclude panpsychism is not a part of Dzogchen. However, as a matter of the history of Western study of Dzogchen, it is important knowledge that early translators had a false impression about Dzogchen teachings. Could it go on this page, as part of a "Historiography" section, perhaps? Or is there a related page where this would be useful? It seems a shame just to delete it.
	== More sources ==

			:: According to a common misunderstanding, in the Buddhist ] tradition {{Citation needed\|date=February 2011}}, particularly Dzogchen ] or "mind series" the principal text of which is the ], there is nothing which is non-sentient, i.e. everything is sentient. Moreover, two of the English scholars who opened the discourse of the ] literature of the ] Dzogchen tradition, ] & ] (1954, 2000: p. 10) specifically with their partial translation and commentary of the '']'' into the English language write of the "One Mind" (Tibetan: sems nyid gcig; Sanskrit: ekacittatva; ekacittata; where * denotes a possible Sanskrit back-formation) thus:
	I found some more sources:
	* Samten Gyaltsen Karmay (1988), '''', BRILL
	* David Germano (1997), chapter on ''ru shan'', in Lopez (1997), "Religions of Tibet in practice"
	* David Germano and Jeanet Gyatso (2001), ''Longchenpa and the possession of the Dakinis'', in White's ''Tantra in Practice'', gives more info on Longchenpa
	* Sam van Schaik (2004), ''
	* Sam van Schaik (2004), "Approaching the Great Peerfection", gives details on Jigme Lingpa's descriptions
	* Kurtis R. Schaeffer, Matthew Kapstein, Gray Tuttle (2013), '''', Columbia University Press
	* {{Citation \| last =Schaik \| first =Sam van \| year =2011 \| title =Tibet A History \| publisher =Yale University Press}}
	] -] 10:31, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

			:: {{quote\|The One Mind, as Reality, is the Heart which pulsates for ever, sending forth purified the blood-streams of existence, and taking them back again; the Great Breath, the Inscrutable ], the Eternally Unveiled Mystery of the Mysteries of Antiquity, the Goal of all Pilgrimages, the End of all Existence.<ref>Walter Yeeling Evans-Wentz, Carl Gustav Jung (1954, 2000). ''The Tibetan book of the great liberation, or, The method of realizing nirvāṇa through knowing the mind''. Oxford University Press US, 2000. {{ISBN\|0-19-513315-3}}, {{ISBN\|978-0-19-513315-8}}. Source: (accessed: Sunday March 7, 2010)</ref>}}
	From Germano (2005):
	:''"Three historical problems have bedeviled traditional and modern scholarship on the Great Perfection:
	::''(i) the chronological conundrum of authorship resulting from the veil of the tradition’s visionary practices of concealing and revealing texts,
	::''(ii) the seemingly unified homogeneity indicated by the single rubric Great Perfection in contrast to the heterogeneity of its internal doxographical categories and sub-rubrics of identification, and
	::''(iii) its relationship to late Indian Buddhist Tantra, particularly in terms of its frequent rhetoric of a transcendence of, or standing apart from, Tantra.
	:''On these points, traditional historiography with its visionary biases has
	::''(i) strongly portrayed Great Perfection in all its varieties as being fully developed in the eighth century by non-Tibetan authors,
	::''(ii) stressed the consistency of distinct subtraditions rather than viewing them as sharply divergent and mutually critical traditions, and
	::''(iii) failed to clearly account for the distinct relationships of each of these subtraditions to Buddhist Tantra.
	:''Modern academic scholarship has tended to either uncritically accept these claims or to only suggest vague questions about their veracity. Samten Karmay’s The Great Perfection was a landmark in initiating the historical study of the Great Perfection, but the flood of subsequent studies has for the most part shed little additional light on historical issues."''

			:: It should be borne in mind, that Evans-Wentz never studied the Tibetan language and that the lama who did the main translation work for him was of the ] sect and is not known to have actually studied or practiced Dzogchen.
	And Vic comes up with this:
	* '''' by Ronald Davidson. Particularly chapter 6
	*
	*
	* "Religion, Medicine and the Human Embryo in Tibet" has a lot about Dzogchen
	* David germano (2007), ''“The shifting terrain of the tantric bodies of Buddhas and Buddhists from an Atiyoga perspective”'', in Ramon Prats, ''The Pandita and the Siddha'', talks about Menngagde being derived from ].

			:: According to the translation with commentary, "Self-Liberation Through Seeing with Naked Awareness", by John Myrdhin Reynolds, the phrase, "It is the single nature of mind which encompasses all of Samsara and Nirvana," occurs only once in the text and it refers not to "some sort of ] hypostasis, a universal ''Nous,'' of which all individual minds are but fragments or appendages", but to the teaching that, "whether one finds oneself in the state of Samsara or in the state of Nirvana, it is the nature of the mind which reflects with awareness all experiences, no matter what may be their nature." This can be found in Appendix I, on pages 80–81. Reynolds elucidates further with the analogy of a mirror. To say that a single mirror can reflect ugliness or beauty, does not constitute an allegation that all ugliness and beauty is one single mirror.
	Thanks! ] -] 14:48, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

			{{reflist-talk}}
	== Traditional accounts ==

			Let me know if this could be valuable. ] (]) 03:14, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
	From what I've seen so far, most books will ''only'' tell the traditional account. It's part of the story too, isn't it? And there's plenty of the other side, the ''historical'' story. NB: the traditional accoubts are also being mentioned by the serious sources. ] -] 20:18, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
	:But later traditional accounts obscure earlier traditional accounts. Its better left unsaid.]<sup>]</sup> 07:11, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
	::Good point, very good point. Let me think over it, for one or two days, okay? Best regards, ] -] 07:25, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

			:I can hardly follow what this text is about... ] -] 05:09, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
	== Semde, Longde and Menngagde are not practiced in order ==

			:: Hi ], probably no good for this page then. Do you think it could be useful on the ] page, though? It is saying that when Evan-Wentz and Jung first translated the text, they misrepresented it as saying one great mind pervades the universe, whereas it said no such thing. That said, if the above is incomprehensible I'll just delete it from the ] article. ] (]) 16:34, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
	Semde, Longde and Menngagde are not practiced in order. If Longchenpa says such a thing, it would be purely hermeneutical (I don't know if this is the right word). Longde is rarely practiced at all.]<sup>]</sup> 16:33, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
	:I already found it a starnge comment; for that reason too I'd moved it into a note. ] -] 05:24, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

			:::I don't know, I can't judge. It's too specialized... ] -] 18:41, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
	== Many changes in this article==
			== "Gartak (martial art)" listed at ] ==
			]
			An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect ]. Please participate in ] if you wish to do so. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 21:34, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

			== Article too long ==
	Just to alert the reader and editors of this article, that there have been many changes made recently by Joshua Jonathan, with most of the changes not discussed here or summarized here after the event. Many sections removed, others rewritten, new sections added, article re-organized.

			There are sections that could stand alone as articles, rigpa, trekcho, togal, among others. ] (]) 13:29, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
	See https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Dzogchen&diff=640295086&oldid=634250698 and https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Dzogchen&diff=617014339&oldid=613080236

			==Split proposal==
	I'm not expert in this area, but the changes are clearly extensive. In a similar recent wave of edits of ] he introduced several misunderstandings of the sources. The same may well be true here. That's a potential hazard of any rapid large scale rewrite of a mature article that has been worked on for many years. The editor doing the rewrite can't be expected to be expert on all the topics in the article, and hasn't got time to read all the citations in detail and review them, some of which might require years of study.
			The article is really too long and the practice section nested too deep. Logically ], currently a redirect to the section, would be the place to which to split the material. I'm also open to ], but I think the dab style is currently preferred. ] (]) 20:21, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

			I think the length is fine, only the "base, path, and fruit" is of considerable length, nonetheless, I've seen longer articles. ] (]) 13:03, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
	One thing I noticed right away is that the section on Maha Ati was removed. Why? It is of interest to readers that Trungpa Rimpoche coined the term Maha Ati which is in quite widespread use, for instance one might encounter the term and wonder what it means - so why remove this section? There must surely be many other things that could be commented on. ] (]) 12:15, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

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Lead changes

This seems to be missing a refutation to appreciate the deletions intent. It can be restored. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 14:51, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I propose that Maha Ati be merged into Atiyoga/Dzogchen. "Maha Ati" is merely a (recently-coined) synonym for Ati yoga / Dzogchen. 109.156.203.132 (talk) 14:39, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

Support Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 15:16, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
Yes it happened here too in a stub without reference. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 02:07, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Support. This seems good and useful. Yes. Best, AD64 (talk) 22:07, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

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Could this material be useful here or on a related page?

Hi Dzogchen editors,

The material below currently exists on the panpsychism page. It is hard to justify having this long historical overview only to conclude panpsychism is not a part of Dzogchen. However, as a matter of the history of Western study of Dzogchen, it is important knowledge that early translators had a false impression about Dzogchen teachings. Could it go on this page, as part of a "Historiography" section, perhaps? Or is there a related page where this would be useful? It seems a shame just to delete it.

According to a common misunderstanding, in the Buddhist Dzogchen tradition , particularly Dzogchen Semde or "mind series" the principal text of which is the Kulayarāja Tantra, there is nothing which is non-sentient, i.e. everything is sentient. Moreover, two of the English scholars who opened the discourse of the Bardo literature of the Nyingma Dzogchen tradition, Evans-Wentz & Jung (1954, 2000: p. 10) specifically with their partial translation and commentary of the Bardo Thodol into the English language write of the "One Mind" (Tibetan: sems nyid gcig; Sanskrit: *ekacittatva; *ekacittata; where * denotes a possible Sanskrit back-formation) thus:

The One Mind, as Reality, is the Heart which pulsates for ever, sending forth purified the blood-streams of existence, and taking them back again; the Great Breath, the Inscrutable Brahman, the Eternally Unveiled Mystery of the Mysteries of Antiquity, the Goal of all Pilgrimages, the End of all Existence.

It should be borne in mind, that Evans-Wentz never studied the Tibetan language and that the lama who did the main translation work for him was of the Gelukpa sect and is not known to have actually studied or practiced Dzogchen.

According to the translation with commentary, "Self-Liberation Through Seeing with Naked Awareness", by John Myrdhin Reynolds, the phrase, "It is the single nature of mind which encompasses all of Samsara and Nirvana," occurs only once in the text and it refers not to "some sort of Neo-Platonic hypostasis, a universal Nous, of which all individual minds are but fragments or appendages", but to the teaching that, "whether one finds oneself in the state of Samsara or in the state of Nirvana, it is the nature of the mind which reflects with awareness all experiences, no matter what may be their nature." This can be found in Appendix I, on pages 80–81. Reynolds elucidates further with the analogy of a mirror. To say that a single mirror can reflect ugliness or beauty, does not constitute an allegation that all ugliness and beauty is one single mirror.

References

Walter Yeeling Evans-Wentz, Carl Gustav Jung (1954, 2000). The Tibetan book of the great liberation, or, The method of realizing nirvāṇa through knowing the mind. Oxford University Press US, 2000. ISBN 0-19-513315-3, ISBN 978-0-19-513315-8. Source: (accessed: Sunday March 7, 2010)

Let me know if this could be valuable. Gazelle55 (talk) 03:14, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

I can hardly follow what this text is about... Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:09, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi Joshua Jonathan, probably no good for this page then. Do you think it could be useful on the Kulayarāja Tantra page, though? It is saying that when Evan-Wentz and Jung first translated the text, they misrepresented it as saying one great mind pervades the universe, whereas it said no such thing. That said, if the above is incomprehensible I'll just delete it from the panpsychism article. Gazelle55 (talk) 16:34, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

I don't know, I can't judge. It's too specialized... Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 18:41, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

"Gartak (martial art)" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Gartak (martial art). Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. _signed,Rosguill 21:34, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Article too long

There are sections that could stand alone as articles, rigpa, trekcho, togal, among others. Skyerise (talk) 13:29, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Split proposal

The article is really too long and the practice section nested too deep. Logically Practice (Dzogchen), currently a redirect to the section, would be the place to which to split the material. I'm also open to Practice in Dzogchen, but I think the dab style is currently preferred. Skyerise (talk) 20:21, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

I think the length is fine, only the "base, path, and fruit" is of considerable length, nonetheless, I've seen longer articles. 178.120.59.13 (talk) 13:03, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

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