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==State of the research==
'''Previous discussions:'''


I'm adding this so we can begin to look at potential updates to the research on TM. I had requested above we not make changes until Doc James is back on Misplaced Pages or 6 months to give him a chance to be part of this. I can't enforce this of course, but I am complying with this and hope others will too. I can add results from newer research if wanted.
*]:
*] Disclosing Mantra:
*]
*
*


'''Problematic sources'''
== the generic problem with anti-TM activists ==


Over the past several months, there has also been a systematic attempt to delete edits that might adversely affect recruitment into TM and its corollaries. <b>Examples of recent deletions</b>: the statements 1) that MMY's publications include a translation of the <em>Bhagavad-Gita</em> (Hindu scripture) and the lengthy poem "Love and God," 2) that the mantras used in TM are based on age and gender, 3) that some TM teachers have broken with MMY and are offering the technique at reduced price, and 4) most of the comments concerning sexist practices within the TM organization. This is part of a long-standing pattern of concealment designed to make TM appear as bland as possible to enhance its appeal to prospective initiates (a "facade"). It also points up an important characteristic of the TM organization, namely, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's <b>zero tolerance for dissent</b>, which makes his program incompatible with the open, democratic society that has allowed him to spread his message. It would be refreshing to see, for a change, a little openness and honesty and tolerance for intellectual freedom from an organization that is supposed to be selling "Enlightenment." Ironically, censors never seem to understand that the only thing gained by hiding the truth is the eventual disillusionment, distrust, and dislike of those they deliberately attempt to mislead. This is one of the reasons why a significant number of people who once learned TM have removed themselves from all contact with the organization. One can easily see the dwindling support for TM in the organization's group publicity photos in which the numbers have grown progressively smaller as the "movement" has reduced its appeal to those individuals willing to acquiesce in having their private lives "Vedicized." Interestingly, even some of these group shots have been staged to make the numbers look greater, usually by spacing the sparse course participants far enough apart to make the group appear larger than it actually is. To the discerning eye, this communicates a pathetic under-estimation of the perceptiveness of the viewer. (This comment will probably be deleted by TM proponents.)
:(left out his or her signature - ])


•'''Transcendental meditation for the primary prevention of cardiovascular disease (2017)'''
:If if is deleted, they could face serious discipline because that would be vandalism. Removing other contributors' comments from talk pages is a serious no-no. It's utter censorship. ] 20:53, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


Louise HartleyAngelique MavrodarisNadine FlowersEdzard ErnstKaren Ree
Over the course of the last month it has became clear that this article suffers from disruption by several committed anti-TMers. The conclusion has been arrived at by investigating the sources used when inundanting the article with unsubstandiated rumours and other nonsense.


'''Withdrawn'''
* If a clinical study proving the adverse effects of TM exist - now is the time to present it (no more journalistic BS taken from dedicated anti-TM sites).

* If allegations of fraud about etc are made, back this up with court documents.

:As the matter now stands what some editors i.a. claim, that a highly placed laywer in the TM Movement actually contacted the authorities and reported what amounted to criminal activity - where is the police investigation? Where is the trial? Where is the verdict?

:In the absence of these, any normal person with some experience of such matters will only conclude that the allegations wasn't even worth the alleged paper this alleged attorney allegedly wrote it on.

I think wikipedia admins need to start taking the phenomenon of underhanded organized subversive activity on this site seriously.

] 21:20, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

"It has become clear..." to whom?

"The conclusion has been arrived at by investigating the sources ..."

Who did this investigation and who did this concluding?

Peterklutz, you really need to begin behaving more rationally. You're talking as if you've been appointed King of Misplaced Pages. You should know enough of Wiki policies by now to know that an article certainly CAN mention allegations of fraud without "court documents." All that is necessary is to cite reputable published sources that the allegation was made. What's more, I cited a court-filed affadavit which contained those charges. A fact you conveniently ignored.

You need to watch your own conduct. You are pissing off more and more Wiki administrators with your disruptive conduct and increasingly bizarre charges of conspiracies of "organized underhanded subversives." ] 05:10, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

----

::I believe it is time to consider an RFC or other formal action to put a stop to Peterklutz' persistant vandalism of this article. If you agree, please speak up. ] 03:53, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

----

AFter some investigation, I think you're correct about the lawyer reference. I don't think "alleged" is the proper term to use, but since he left service (I think) at MUM before it was accredited about 1980, and before any peer-reviewed research was published under its auspices, his testimony isn't exactly relevant for anything published in the past 25 years or thereabouts. Any peer-reviewed research published before then wasn't directly from MUM/MIU, as far as I can tell. Perhaps he's referring to the Collected Papers Volume I research, with I certainly will agree includes a lot of, at best, "preliminary" in-house research that isn't worth much.] 01:12, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

:Your are wrong Sparaig. As MUM's legal counsel and director of the university's grants programs, DeNaro was able to speak with authority about the TM movement's fraudulent efforts to portray itself as pursuing science rather than promoting Maharishi's religious agenda. The movement continues today its deceptive use of pseudoscience to hide its religious agenda.] 05:10, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Here is the of Denaro's affidavit as I found in a newsgroup archive. A typo I noticed a few years ago still leaps out. Others have speculated that he meant to say he left MIU in July 13, 1976. not 1975 since that would make him a Time Lord:

:5. On November 21, 1975 I began work as Director of Grants Administration at MIU, and had over-all responsibility for all of the grants and funding programs including World Plan Executive Council- United States (WPEC-US).

:I was also legal counsel and reported directly to either Ed Tarabilda, Vice President of Legal Affairs and/or Steve Druker, Executive Vice President. In addition, I had a full time teaching schedule in economics and business law. Prior to coming to MIU I was initiated into the practice of TM.

:My wife worked at MIU as an administrator and researcher, and we resided in Frat #108. I continued to work as a professor of law and economics until my last day on campus, July 13, 1975.

Denaro obvious feels that the people at MIU/MUM were pretty awful and that MMY himself is even worse:

:23. In his more subtle and very sophisticated way Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and his charlatanism is a far more destructive and dangerous cult leader than Jim Jones who induced more than 900 people to commit suicide in Guyana.


Regardless of the validity of his claims, the fact that he was there for 18 months in the mid-70's, 5 years before MIU/MUM received accreditation, means that he doesn't have much to say about the research that was published from 1980 on, after the school was accredited. There was very little, if any, peer-reviewed research coming at of MIU/MUM during that time, at least according to .

Wallace RK, the founding president of MIU, published 3 papers in 1970 and 1971, and nothing more appears in pubmed until 1981.
Dillbeck, MC published a paper in 1977, and nothing more until 1981.
Orme-Johnson DW published a paper in 1973, and nothing more until 1981.

These were the three principle MIU researchers for many years, I believe, and none of them appears to have published a peer-reviewed paper during the period that Denaro was at MIU/MUM. Orme-Johnson may have done the research for his 1977 paper while Denaro was there, however. It seems very likely that Denaro was complaining (and rightfully so, IMHO) about the sloppiness of much of the early in-house research that often made it into TM brochures from that period. but that stuff was likely often done on a shoestring budget.


Also, David Orme-Johnsonhttp: this:

:Replies to Allegations that Maharishi University of Management Suppresses Negative Research: Dennis Roark and Anthony Denaro. Two former faculties of Maharishi International University, Dennis Roark and Anthony Denaro, have made allegations that the university has suppressed negative research results. Neither Dennis nor Tony were involved in the research at MIU, so they are not in a position to be "expert witnesses". I have had various key roles in the research at the university as Director of the International Center for Scientific Research, Chairman of the Psychology Department and Director of its doctoral program, Co-Director of the doctoral program in the Neurophysiology of Consciousness, and Dean of Research. I hardly knew Tony Denaro at all, and several other faculty that I have talked to don't even remember his ever being there. That I didn't know him is significant in this context, because he, being a lawyer, was never involved in the research, so he is hardly in a position to comment on the research process. Even if he had heard second or third hand accounts, I have not heard of any specific instances cited by him to back up his claims, which are untrue.

:The comments by Dennis Roark came from a letter cited on an anti-TM website, in which he states that the research at MIU is "fraudulent in many ways”. The only specific instance that he cites is his doubts about EEG research on Yogic Flying. I was senior author on the study and co- author on a subsequent replication of the study, so I am very familiar with the methodology used.

:The issue Dennis raised is whether the EEG can be measured during gross body movement because of the artifacts produced by movement. There are many EEG studies of runners, astronauts, etc., where the subject is moving. One approach to dealing with artifacts that many scientists use is to remove them with digital filtering. Another, more conservative approach, which we used, was to eliminate from the date is set epochs with artifacts in them. Figure 4 in the original 1977 paper show a trace of raw EEG data typical of the Yogic Flying session that is without artifact, and the coherence spectral array shows increased EEG coherence at that time. Thus, the coherence effect was not due to artifacts.
] 08:56, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

::Quite the contrary, as head of MUM's grants programs, DeNaro IS and expert witness on how the university and the TM movement used (as it continues to do) gross deception to sell their guru's religious teachings as science. We certainly don't expect the people he's accused of fraud to agree with him. Duh! Of course they deny it. But that doesn't make the accusations go away -- especially since similar misconduct has been amply documented -- by me and many other reporters and investigators. Misplaced Pages is not the place to conduct a "trial." It is sufficient to cite the allegation and the fact that it is disputed by the TM movement.

::Nice try at obfuscation. What has Orme-Johnson's attempt to discredit Dennis Roark to do with anything in this article? Roark is not relevant since there's nothing about him in the article! Any more straw man arguments you want to erect to knock down? ] 15:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

:I just cut and paste the whole comment by Orme-Johnson. Sorry to let it go over the limit of what was relevant. ] 16:04, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

== who is responsible for deciding when to archive a talk page? ==

Just wondering. ] 21:52, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

:Any editor can archive or refactor an article's talk page, it depends on the size of the page, how current the discussion is, readability of the page - things like that. Check these articles out: ] and ]. ] 23:49, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

== Where is complete text of denaro? ==

The only complete text of denaro's affidavit I could find was quoted in a newsgroup. All the other links to the text appear to be broken, unless someone can dredge up a findlaw search for it, whcih I'm not very good at. ] 20:47, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Law text..? The guy may have a point re the sorry state with mid-level TM pencil pushers, but he sure shot himselfin the foot with that James Jones 900-killed analogy. The article reminded me of my own experiences with TM management, experiences I would find universal to all organisations driven by,or entertaining, some sort of idea or ideology - including political parties.

For the benefit of critical-minded eaders I would like to ask himor her to consider these possible interpretations of DeNaros'affidavit: (1) the guy is hysteric; (2) MUI in the 1970s indeed was a really harrowing place; (3) this whole hyperbole deal: be it experiences of TM or the fervour with which TM is attacked, is victim to some sort of Texan or American syndrome - why does it have to be so BIG?

I am sure the situation in the TM Movement in other parts of the world is quite different :-)

] 21:07, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

== Panchakarma ==

BTW, Andrew, Panchakara (5 actions) ''includes'' enemas '''and''' other "actions" held to be therapeutic in the Ayurvedic tradition. ] 21:21, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

:Of course it is. But that doesn't mean Panchakarma = "Maharishi Ayurveda." Panchakarma is an ancient prescientific practice. "Maharishi Ayurveda" is a recently introduced, trademarked line of health products and services being sold by the TM movement. TMers are always playing three-card Monte with words. And I'm one of the cops out to break up the crooked games.

:It was wrong to define "Panchakarma" as "Maharishi Ayurveda." That's why I changed it and explained the most invasive and questionable part of the treatment. But I will make it better by adding the words "which includes" to the parenthetical explanation. ] 03:46, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Enemas were often the most effective way of introducing medication and nuitrition prior to IV's and injections, you know. There may be little or no scientific evidence that the specific treatments used in Panchakarma are of value, but to characterize herbalized enemas as "most questionable" is more-than-a-stretch. ] 07:04, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

:More strawman arguments and obfuscation from Lawson English. TMers are not selling enemas to provide nutrition or medication. They're selling their enemas with the false claim that they remove mystical toxins from the body (which Maharishi calls "Ama"). To call these enemas the most questionable part of Panchakarma is no "stretch." If Lawson wants to argue this, let him cite some studies in Medline that show these enemas are safe and effective. ] 13:23, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


Well, whatever. My point is simply that if the herbs used have any therepeutic value (not claiming they do), then using enemas to deliver them is the old school way of doing it. Even modern medicine uses enemas and suppositories as a medical delivery system in some situations. BTW, for what it is worth, there IS a published, peer-reviewed study on the utility of using panchakarma, or at least parts of it, to remove toxins from the body: . ] 16:51, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

== Andrew Skolnick and other anti-TM activists ==

Not all the people who have edited this article are "anti-TM activists." Some of us are educated people who have had direct experience with the TM organization over an extended period of time and who, having maintained our intelllectual independence, wish to pass on our observations so that others can make an informed decision as to whether to involve themselves in TM and its corollaries. The article in Misplaced Pages should not be turned into just another propaganda vehicle for recruiting the unwary.

The '''reasons''' for '''restoring''' your current reverts to the evident smear-campaign version of this article are not ideology - but '''editorial.''' All the allegations you make are found, albeit in a more '''encyclopedic''' fashion (in a neutral narrative form) - as opposed to inundating the article hyperbolic citations made by people in what appears to be a strong state of affect.

In fact, in the restored/current version I linked directly to attorney DeNaro's affidavit - instead of the anonymous dedicated anti-TM site behind-the-TM-facade.org. Which could be construed as even more devestating to TM (if that is you objective).

'''You say behind-the-TM-facade is not anonymnous.'''

If you have any information about it, feel free to share it here. Until this happens, I can only continue to observe that a '''whois lookup''' confirm (1) it is '''anonymous'''; that (2) it is somehow connected to a '''sex toy vendor''' (unstress4less), and (3) perhaps - given the registered contact name of the anonymous site owner - '''set up and operated by competitors to the TM Movement''' - TM defectors hoping that people learn their TM ripoff technique.

'''About you, Andrew:''' I've checked what I understand to be your personal site and it appears to me you are an organized member of a group calling itself BRIGHT. When it comes to editing the TM article, being an '''ideological atheist''' makes you no different from representatives of competing religious sects.

Here's my question to you and everyone one of your kind: Why don't you create a/o maintain an article about your thing - in your case BRIGHT? Why do you go outside your own turf and attack others? What is this negative thing that burns inside you and propels you to go out and defame, tear down, and destroy?

Why can't you and your kind simply live and let live?

] 08:04, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

:What you actually mean is why can't I lie and let lie. Sorry, Peterklutz, I prefer the truth and I dis those who use falsehoods -- such as your claim that I am an organized member of BRIGHT. I have a link to the group on my web site under "Paranormal" sites (in fact, the link is old and doesn't even work!). Other than that, there's nothing. And a Google search will show nothing connecting me with the group -- for good reason: I'm not involved with it.

:You're really climbing into the gutter in your campaign to vandalize the TM article and attack anyone whose speech you disagree with. ] 13:39, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

The BRIGHT link worked just fine when I visited it. ] 17:07, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

BTW, now has a non-penis-enlargement-related home page. Were I paranoid, I would think the webmaster is monitoring this discussion... OK, so I 'am" paranoid --sue me. ] 02:29, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

:You're not paranoid, Sparaig - the who run(s) the site appears to have a long history of .

:I don't know who bankrolls it, but the administrative contact is given as the admin at ), a California ISP.

:The upside of the attempt to consilidate all the alleged TM-negative "research" on is that anyone who wishes to form their own opionion just has to check the reported sources and see what they are worth (I did that myself and was pleasantly surprised at how thin it all is, you just need to scrape a little on the surface to learn that there really isn't anything under it - especially when compared with original ).

:as far as concern the , I've already mentioned that this runs a number of , one of which got him into

:] 06:42, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

:Bah. Leaving aside any anti-TM activities, the ''existence'' of the "People Eating Tasty Animals" webiste idea was pretty darned funny, IMHO. The courts lack a sense of humor. ] 11:30, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I am sure the judges smiled too.

But when you consider the resources put into it, the whole deal starts to taste a bit funny. Who would bankroll the hijacking of an anti-meat industry site? A private person out of his own pocket just for the fun of it?

And just who keeps funding this guy's other anti-sites?

] 12:35, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

::The guy himself. IIRC, he had a GF or other close friend who committed suicide and he blames TM for the death. ] 20:46, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

== confessions of ignorance (copied from http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Sethie) ==

Ran a check to list the top editors

Toward the top of the list I found i.a. '''Sethie''', here's what '''SFacets''' and he - one of the article's other TM-critical editors have to say with reference to his own knowledge regarding a subject CFacets persistenly defames:

:'''SFacets:''' I agree that there is alot of pro-TM biased editing, however it is important to let them contribute to the article for it to grow (after all followers are logically the ones who would know the most about the organisation). Of course the edits made should be monitored..

:'''Sethie:''' I concur 100%. Since Peterklutz, 186. has been around, I believe the articles have improved, a lot... I am definatley opposed to totally censuring anyone, unless every edit is absurd...

] 08:38, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

'''My point''' here - please take note of this '''wikipedia admins''' - is that the '''top "contributors"''' to the TM and MMY articles by their own admIssion '''don't know what the subject-matters they are editing.'''

My guess is that unless wikipedia adapts its policy to the facts on the ground in Cyberspace; it will in time stagnate (as admins choosen by popular vote) are more concerned about their own popularity as hostile editors pull wikipedia down into the gutter - as the admin elite entrenches itself and proves to become an immovable layer of article-subject ignorance

Bon chance!

] 12:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

:Peterklutz, this is more of YOUR confession of ignorance. As a long time authority on TM "science" and a major contributer to the TM Wiki article, I've never "admitted" that I "don't know what the subject-matters editing." That is a baseless claim from someone who is conducting a persistent campaign of disruption and disinformationi. You've been warned repeatedly to cease this misconduct, but you've chosen to ignore everyone's warnings. Our patience is about to run out. ] 13:39, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

== attempt to find a resolution to Askolnick's edit war ==

If you are serious about getting this resolved, Andrew, I have two suggestions:
'''(1) desist from portraying yourself as some sort of wikipedia official,''' threatening your fellow editors with an array of reprisalswith from the wikipedia arsenal
'''(2) stick to the facts''' (one of which is that that your name is not mentioned in the section re subject-matter ignorance)

If, or when, you do this,you may want to consider these rationales for my latest edits:
* the '''TM-Sidhi Program''' is a '''discrete subject-matter''' not to be confused with the Maharishi Effect (the effect can be produced in more than one way), hence a more encyclopedic and reader-friendly way to present information about these two subjects as (1) explaning what the TM-Sidhi program is; and (2) in the Maharishi Effect secion explain that - and any existing controversies
* When writing for an '''encyclopedia''' it is '''better to summarize subjects''' rather than inundate articles with lengthy harangues of defaming hyperbole. It's just bad style. '''Being a journalist,''' which I understand is your claim, '''you are held to a higher standard in this regard''' than other editors. My conclusion, based on this and your bias, is that you keep coming back on purpose to maintain the ] article in it's presently degraded, crippled state.
* Your '''deciscion to remove the bullet point summaries''' with links from the '''Maharishi EFfect section''' screams of prejudice. You may not like the findings proposed by - but with what right do you deprive readers of their freedom to form their own informed opinion...?

:The extent to which the TM Movement appears to have gone to test their hypotehsisis is quite news worthy. The world has no shortages of loonies, but this bunch have actually put serious resources into testing a superbly outlandish theory. Where is your sense for scope journalism? People just might want to know this - if for no orther value than sheer infotainment.

:''What people don't want is to drown in hyperbole defecated all over the article by fundamentalists of various shades.''
From the review.&nbsp;This Cochrane Review has been superseded. See 'Meditation for the prevention and management of heart disease'.&nbsp;The editorial group responsible for this previously published document have withdrawn it from publication.
:Andrew '''if you're going to call yourself a journalist in the future,''' put your money where your mouth is and '''contact ;''' get '''their study; peruse''' it for weaknesses; if and when you spot these; '''build a case''' and confront '''Hagelin''' and demand '''explanations.''' If, after doing all of this, you still have a case - take a deep breath, relax and congratulate yourself. You are '''no longer to hostage to your fears that TM scientists actually might know something you don't.'''


To any wikipedia admin who happens to read this: if you're too young or inexperienced to understand what'sgoing on here - there just might be seniors in your organization in a position to help.


•'''Meditation therapy for anxiety disorders (2006)'''
] 16:07, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


T Krisanaprakornkit&nbsp;1,&nbsp;W Krisanaprakornkit,&nbsp;N Piyavhatkul,&nbsp;M Laopaiboon•"
== vandalism by moi? ==


&nbsp;
Andrew, you justified your reverting of my edit of the lawsuit text because I was being a vandal. Here is your original text, followed by my revision:
Limited to two studies and only one on TM (Review of one primary study). Authors consider the review limited in scope/more research needed.


:MUM has been sued by the parents of the killed student on the basis that TM might be dangerous for mentally disturbed people and for not taking actions to protect the victim after he had been violently attacked earlier in the day by the mentally ill student.


• '''Meditation practices for health: state of the research. (2007)'''
Here is my revision which you then reverted, calling it vandalism:


Maria B Ospina,&nbsp;Kenneth Bond,&nbsp;Mohammad Karkhaneh,&nbsp;Lisa Tjosvold,&nbsp;Ben Vandermeer,&nbsp;Yuanyuan Liang,&nbsp;Liza Bialy,&nbsp;Nicola Hooton,&nbsp;Nina Buscemi,&nbsp;Donna M Dryden, and&nbsp;&nbsp;Terry P Klassen
:MUM has been sued by the parents of the killed student on the basis that TM might be dangerous for mentally disturbed people and for not taking actions to protect other students after the first violent attack earlier in the day by the mentally ill student.


'''Archived'''
Here is what says. Why is it vandalism to modify your contribution to be more in-line with what your link says?:
Archived for historical reference only




:The lawsuits say university employees ignored the first attack, resuming classes and blaming the attack on Sem’s improper meditation.


'''More recent review/clinical updates'''
:Sem was placed in the custody of Joel Wynsong, the university’s dean of men, and taken to Wynsong’s apartment on campus, where he stole a paring knife, court documents said.


:He then fled the apartment and went to the dining hall where he stabbed Butler, records show.


•'''Transcendental meditation for lowering blood pressure: An overview of systematic reviews and meta-analyses''' (2017)
:'''The lawsuits allege the university was negligent for failing to recognize the threat Sem posed to students, reporting the initial attack to authorities and keeping Sem away from other students after he attacked Killian.'''


SooLiang&nbsp;Ooi, Melissa Giovino, Sok Cheon Pak
] 17:13, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


::Lawson, I apologize for my misunderstanding. My memory of the murder at MUM was faulty. I made that correction because I wrongly thought that Sem attacked the SAME student twice the same day, rather than attacking two separate students. Sorry. When the article is unlocked, you or I should change it back to your version. ] 00:30, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


'''•First-line Psychotherapies for Military-Related PTSD (2020) /Clinical update (2020)'''
::<strike>However, I accused you of vandalism when you deleted a large amount of material I had added to the article simply because you don't want it in the article. In your own words, you "put" your "own 2 cents in" by censoring out that all that information. What you did was nothing less than censorship. You thought the information is harmful to the religious group you belong to so you put yout "2 cents" in by taking all of it out. You are NOT ALLOWED to put your "own 2 cents" into any Wiki article. No one is. Only material that is relevant, that has a neutral point of view, and that is supported by a reputable source may be included in Wiki articles. Your "own 2 cents" should be kept in your own pockets from now on. </strike>] 04:42, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


Maria M.&nbsp;Steenkamp,&nbsp;PhD1;&nbsp;Brett T.&nbsp;Litz,&nbsp;PhD2,3;&nbsp;Charles R.&nbsp;Marmar,&nbsp;MD4
So the Universty DID do something after the first attack? ] 17:27, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
== Could you point to the content ==


Could anyone point to the section of the review that specifically indicates this edit:
Not nearly enough, IMHO. ] 22:01, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


"There is no good evidence TM is of any use for reducing anxiety."
:I am not sure I agree. If a person is Hell bent to commit an act, they are very hard to stop. From what you say the only step that might have prevented the killing would have been for MUM staff to physically attack Sem and incapacitate him before it happened. Doing this would have meant MUM staff breaking the law, since Sem at the time was cooperative and apparently accepted being taken into custody and followed the Dean to his room/office. I would be very surprised if MUM is not vindicated on this point.


The review, author-conclusions states,"The small number of studies included in this review do not permit any conclusions to be drawn on the effectiveness of meditation therapy for anxiety disorders. Transcendental meditation is comparable with other kinds of relaxation therapies in reducing anxiety,...
:Finally, how many Rambo-types do you know that are jumping the foam in Fairfield? :-)


I see two conclusions in reference to TM: One, that a small number of studies doesn't indicate conclusions for mediation therapy in general. And two, that TM compares to other kinds of relaxation therapies.
:] 22:27, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


We could say," A 2006 review indicates no conclusions could be drawn on meditation as therapy, including TM, because of too few studies investigated.
::For once, Peterklutz is right. Without a Rambo around, there was nothing the Maharishi University of Management's administration could have done to protect that poor student from being murdered with a knife from the Dean's kitchen.


The date is pertinent as is the reason the review cannot draw conclusions.
::It clearly would have taken a Rambo-type to force the TM administrators to call the police and report that a schizophrenic student, who had stopped taking his medication, had stabbed another student in the face with a pen. That would have drawn public attention to a serious mental health problem on a campus that is supposedly enjoying Heavenly Bliss. It would have taken a Rambo-like hero to force the administration to go public. That it was their ethical and legal responsibility to report a violent crime, that it was their duty to protect the safety and lives of their students was not compelling enough. It would have taken Rambo to force them to pick up the phone and call the police. Instead, the mentally ill and violent student was able to pick up a knife from the dean's kitchen, go back out on campus, and stab another student to death.


I'd note per MEDRS,] that this source, at 2006, is outdated. There are more recent, pertinent, MEDRS compliant sources than a source that is 18 years old, with two studies and only one that pertains to the topic of this article, and that states, no conclusions could be drawn.
::Rambos and the police; they're never around when you need them.] 01:10, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


There is no evidence, per this review, that the small number of studies reviewed can lead to evidence that meditation therapy is effective in anxiety reduction. The review does not say is of no use. That is an extrapolation, and not accurate per the review we are looking at.
The police were never called... ] 23:46, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


] (]) 16:51, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
''Responding to Andrew above''. If you check the lnk you provided, the deletion was done by Peter, not moi. As far as I recall, I haven't deleted or reverted or whatever any substantial portion of this article. At best (or worst), I've added a bit to give an alternate point of view to provide balance, at least IMHO. If you feel this is wrong, fine, but please castigate me for things I have done, not things someone else has done. ] 05:10, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


:If the source says evidence does "not permit any conclusions to be drawn" that equates to "no good evidence" (in part because the default assumption is 'no effect'). Per ] it's best not to include the gubbins about what the document type is. Cochrane reviews are exempt from ] because the assumption is they update when the underlying evidence changes; this is set out in ]. ] (]) 16:58, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
:You are right again and I apologize. Looking now, I see that it was Peterkurtz who deleted it not you. Sorry Lawson, you are not guilty of vandalism or anything resembling it. I struck out my comment above and appologize for my mistake.] 11:56, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


::I agree and have updated the article to reflect this. ] (]) 17:14, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
::Not to worry. I'm sure I will be doing plenty of stuff to earn your ire in the future... ;-) ] 18:43, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
:Add: per your comment on Cochrane: There is much research now on meditation techniques that indicate reduction of anxiety. This review is poor in terms of the reviews and also in date. Maybe take look at the state of the research in meditation techniques. A lot has changed in almost 20 years. The same is true of anything we might call Fringe. What was fringe 20 years ago may now be mainstream. That's the nature of science and research. Salk research on the polio vaccines would by our standards have been considered Fringe at one time, but now with research is no longer so. ] (]) 17:23, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
::Really? This is a page specifically about ]. From a quick look the research scene is moribund (mindfulness is the new kid on the block). Which are the ] on TM and anxiety? ] (]) 17:30, 16 December 2023 (UTC)


:::I suggest you look deeper. And if you're in a looking mood you might want to check the Mindfulness article, a conglomerate of mindfulness related content rather than anything clearly delineated. The Effects of Meditation article is wracked with non- MEDRS sources and is clearly a mindfulness-dominated, POV article. I don't edit Misplaced Pages much anymore. Too Busy. And I don't try try to add new content or update this article in terms of research. There is a point where the fight isn't worth it. There is research being done on many meditation techniques from what I've seen. New kid might be a red flag, though; how much is MEDRS compliant? I am busy again for quite a while but I'll see about adding content on the state of the research on this article topic. It's not a competition. Meditation has become mainstream and there has to be room to accurately describe any forms that have verifiable, reliable sources. ] (]) 17:54, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
== I've re-read some of the discussions above in which Andrew Skolnick is involved ==
::::Also: Health effects section is organized to indicate the history of the research given this meditation has a relatively long history in research and the article follows that history. So the date of the Cochran review should be added back in. Right now there’s a bit of a gaping hole where research date was removed. ] (]) 19:28, 16 December 2023 (UTC)


..and of the two remaining alternatives of who this persona is, (1) an ideological dead-ender; or (2) a paid (government?) debunker, I think the odds are stacked in favor of the latter.


===Reversion of date with out summary comment===
Why?
Bon Courage. You've reverted with out any reason given. As I said here, the section is organized by date. You've removed the date. We do have another option. The review we are discussing has only one study on TM. Th authors conclude that with only that one study and whatever issues that study had no conclusions could be drawn. So per our own MEDRS guidelines this isn't a legitimate review since we are looking for replicated results. The whole thing should probably be removed. Further and again the review itself is outdated.


I have to wonder why you're insistent in removing the date and ignoring context. I refuse to get into some weird edit warring situation so if you honestly and with out bias feel it is appropriate to exclude the date when information has been ordered historically and since you also seem to have no reason to make that deletion I will leave the edit. I can't argue with what is illogical. If you do have a bias do you really think our readers are stupid enough to wonder about the bald statement now in the article which makes no logical sense. ] (]) 21:24, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
Because of this man's automaton-like response-pattern to Sparaig.


:See above where I put "Cochrane reviews are exempt from WP:MEDDATE because the assumption is they update when the underlying evidence changes". So the assumption is what Cochrane says is current. I'd suggest you actually engage with points made. The rest of that section needs to be made compliant with ] too. If you think that Cochrane rewiews are "not legitimate" that is not something Misplaced Pages can fix. ] (]) 21:47, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
In all likelyhood not the only such experience of an unpleasant and prevalent phenomenon (young and impressionable?) wikipedia admins are exposed to.


::Ah well. You've sidestepped the points I made-red herring. You reverted the date of the review with out reason- no real edit summary given. And noting the information is not describing the source; this is supposedly a reliable source and this is just content. You've twisted WP:MEDSAY. Why are you afraid of adding a date? You've decided the research is moribund. I'm sure it is in this article because editors trot along and remove whatever doesn't suit their positions as you have done. You've worded the review inaccurately. I have no problem with adding whatever the review says but I do have problems with what appears to be illogical at best and biased at worst reading of the review. I'm no stranger to this kind of argument, and I know the only way too deal with it is to walk away. Should I add more research of which there is quite a bit, as the research on all forms of meditation increases yearly when this is what one deals with? You win! I don't deal with bullying or arguments that sidestep the issues. There's no point. ] (]) 22:00, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
:::Olive, it is really impossible to respond meaningfully to that. ] (]) 06:56, 6 January 2024 (UTC)


Note: Cochrane is not the only reliable;e source. ] (]) 00:00, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
]


:What, for TM & anxiety specifically? It's not obvious that's the case. ] (]) 06:57, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
==Page protection==
::I'm not sire what point you're making?
Considering the ongoing damaging revert war, I plan on keeping the article fully protected until a ] version is agreed on this talkpage, or else a consensus that protection has become unnecessary and constructive editing can begin. To see how the word ] is used on Misplaced Pages, please click on the link. ] | ] 23:41, 27 June 2006 (UTC).

:Thank you Bishonen. ] 00:20, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Heh. Given that Andrew is convinced that I'm reverting pages (when I have not), presenting a totally biased view of TM (as though he's not), that he considers rewording something to more accurately reflect his cited reference to be "vandalism," and that Andrew was paranoid enough about me to ask people if they were me simply because they disagreed with him in other wikipedia disputes, even though it has been years since our last internet exchange, IIRC, I think the term "when hell freezes over" applies to the assumption that "concensus" will be reached amongst all parties. I HAVE been trying to reach concensus about this article from the moment I started contributing, BTW. I challenge anyone to show me instances where I have not. While I may be being paranoid myself (or at least, arrogant about how important I am to him), it seems to me that Andrew's extreme level of participation in this article started after I first made a contribution. ] 00:30, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
:Misplaced Pages would grind to a halt if "consensus" meant 100% agreement. That's why I asked you to click on the link; the word isn't used in exactly the same way on wiki as in the, uh, real world.
:BTW, '''everybody please note''' that I can insert things that are generally agreed, if I'm around. I won't do that with any kind of debatable consensus, though. But noting Askolnick's apology above, about a pretty minor detail — "Sorry. When the article is unlocked, you or I should change it back to your version." — I've made the change. (Protest here if you disagree with it.) ] | ] 01:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC).

<table border=1 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=1><tr><td style="padding:10px; color:green;">

As already stated by myself in the opening para of this dispute (whihc foloowed my request for admin assistance), is ummed up above. Please find them repeated here:

* the '''TM-Sidhi Program''' is a '''discrete subject-matter''' not to be confused with the Maharishi Effect (the effect can be produced in more than one way), hence a more encyclopedic and reader-friendly way to present information about these two subjects as (1) explaning what the TM-Sidhi program is; and (2) in the Maharishi Effect secion explain that - and any existing controversies
* When writing for an '''encyclopedia''' it is '''better to summarize subjects''' rather than inundate articles with lengthy harangues of defaming hyperbole. It's just bad style. '''Being a journalist,''' which I understand is your claim, '''you are held to a higher standard in this regard''' than other editors. My conclusion, based on this and your bias, is that you keep coming back on purpose to maintain the ] article in it's presently degraded, crippled state.
* Your '''deciscion to remove the bullet point summaries''' with links from the '''Maharishi EFfect section''' screams of ejudice. You may not like the findings proposed by - but with what right do you deprive readers of their freedom to form their own informed opinion...?

The extent to which the TM Movement appears to have gone to test their hypotehsisis is quite news worthy. The world has no shortages of loonies, but this bunch have actually put serious resources into testing a superbly outlandish theory. Where is your sense for scope journalism? People just might want to know this - if for no orther value than sheer infotainment.

''What people don't want is to drown in hyperbole defecated all over the article by fundamentalists of various shades.''

] 18:46, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

</tr></td></table>

'''Bishonen,''' don't plan your strategy to "resolve" this by letting some more time pass and then unlock the article satisfied with Askolnick et al doing some feet shuffling, because if you fail to uphold wp editorial styles and rules now, I reserve the right to escalate this in the wikipedia organization. Somewhere along the line the chance is someone will see the bigger picture of what is going on and do something about it.

Oh, and by the way (in case you haven't noticed), the only person that has has deserved having the V-word thrownat him or her is Askolnick - the sorry fact that he and his likes scream bloddy murder as soon as someone dare substitute one of their derogatory invectives with a fact only servers to highlight the moral standard of these individuals.

] 21:28, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
:I'll leave the page protected for as long as necessary, so everybody had better get started on the compromise thing. Peter, your confrontational habits of speech (certainly I don't see anybody else on this talkpage persistently attacking the ''motives'' of everybody else the way you do) and editorializing editing isn't going to make it any easier to reach a consensus that includes you. I hope there eventually will be a version that satisfies everybody, but if you choose to stonewall, "consensus" doesn't ''have'' to include you; read ] and see. And you shouldn't make the mistake of supposing me young and impressionable. I'm neither. ] | ] 01:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC).

::Well, Andrew's willing to apologize when he's completely in the wrong on something, but he's been quite willing to toss accusations in my direction based on his mis-reading what I have said and done here, colored by his perception of me in the past. ] 02:12, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

==TM censors keeping busy at Misplaced Pages==

The TM censors have also deleted the sentence about TM teachers who have broken with MMY and are offering the practice at greatly reduced price! They have also deleted most of the material about sexist practices within the TM organization, which might be of interest to women. Anything that might adversely affect RECRUITMENT is being systematically deleted.

Bishonen, may I ask that you also please restore an entire section that the censor removed? I just noticed that he/she deleted the entire section on the Journal of American Medical Association's expose of TM's campaign of scientific deceit when I wasn't watching. Here's the version that was removed without any justification:

The TM movement has tried for 15 years to make this information disappear. They first tried a SLAPP suit. They later turned to lying that the suit was settled for an "undisclosed amount of money" and that the information was retracted - neither of which is true. Its agents should not be allowed to get away with censorship in Misplaced Pages.

There appears to be a more that was deleted in this censorship campaign, but I don't have the time now to detect all that was removed. What can be done to stop this assault on the integrity of Misplaced Pages? It's becoming a full-time job to correct that damage of these censors.

Thanks.] 00:44, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree fully that Peter Klutz should be restricted (somehow) in his access to this article, as there is a clear agenda--almost as if advertising TM. It's disturbing in it's utter lack of any objectivity.

Sparaig seems to share a similar agenda with the added problem of simply lacking accurate historical information on Indian philosophy in general. (Posted unsigned by ].)

:But at least Lawson (Sparaig)is a gentleman. That at least makes dealing with his propagandizing less infuriating. I've battled his distorted view of reality for years, quite some time ago. He always remained courteous (even when I was not). There's a big difference between these two. I don't think it would be right to bar Sparaig. He at least is respectful of rules and courteous and therefore much less disruptive.

:By the way, Peterklutz has been allowed to turn the article on ] into a virtual advertorial for his guru's world enterprises. We really need to stop that too.] 01:25, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

:Yes, I agree fully that Peter Klutz should be restricted (somehow) in his access to this article, as there is a clear agenda--almost as if advertising TM. It's disturbing in it's utter lack of any objectivity.

Sparaig seems to share a similar agenda with the added problem of simply lacking accurate historical information on Indian philosophy in general.

] 01:50, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Insert that? Me? Oh, no. I'll insert things that are ''generally agreed'', nothing else. 100% agreed on this page. If you think there's any chance of getting universal agreement for that (I really doubt it), start a ] or something. If you think the integrity of Misplaced Pages is at stake, either ] or the ] is your next step. You, and everybody else, might want to read up on a few ArbCom cases to understand what can and can't be achieved through that. I'd recommend especially ] as somewhat relevant to your concerns. ] | ] 01:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC).

I'd be quite happy for Andrew's take on things TM and JAMA to be included if he can get JAMA to allow the full text of the original Chopra, Sharma and Triguna article to be referenced from Misplaced Pages. It's not exactly proper, what the authors did, but at the same time, folks can decide for themselves the egregiousness of their sin vis-a-vis what Andrew writes about it. ] 02:18, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

:Unfortunately, the AMA provides full text online for JAMA issues beginnin in 1998. However, I believe the article can be access through a number of online data sources (like Lexis-Nexis) available for free at most libraries. Here's the citation:
::Maharishi Ayur-Veda: modern insights into ancient medicine
::H. M. Sharma; B. D. Triguna; D. Chopra
::JAMA. 1991;265:2633-2634.

:That's the May 22/29, 1991 issue of JAMA.

:The text of my October 2, 1991 JAMA article was available on my web site for several years. Unfortunately, the AMA permissions officer asked me to take it down (I may be the author, but I don't own the copyright). However, it is available on other web sites, such as: ] 13:20, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


:Just want to put it to the record that any silence on my part should not be construed as condonence of further edits on the TM article (including JAMA stuff). If the activists are prepared to discuss details and formulations for further edits, I'll be coming back to this page to see that they might have to offer.

] 10:31, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

==Minor wording issues==

The opening line "Transcendental Meditation or TM is a form of meditation developed in 1955 by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, a disciple of Brahmananda Saraswati. The meditation is reported to be reminiscent of and possibly derived from tantric practices found in Hinduism." Needs to be reworded to correctly convey accrate historical information on the common origin of the TM technique.

It could simply be reworded as:

Transcendental Meditation or TM is a form of meditation developed in 1955 by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, a disciple of Brahmananda Saraswati. The meditation is reported to be reminiscent of and possibly derived from tantric meditational practices found in Hinduism.

This should prevent TM from incorrectly being thought of as "tantric" in the sexual sense, a usage common in western parlance.
--] 01:50, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Of course, the whole question of the definition can be avoided by pointing out that MMY claims that TM is the simplest and easiest form of dhyana, as defined by Patanjali.] 02:00, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

== What goes around comes around... ==

It now appears evident that the congregation of anti-TM activists is not willing to discuss the facts on the ground that prompted myself to ask wikipedia admin to launch an investigation into Askonlick - the grounds being Askolnick's repeated unedits of efforts to provide encyclopdic information about the ''Maharishi Effect'' and the ''TM-Sidhi program.''

Since the activiets have not responded to my proposal to not confuse these two discreete issues and to provide summary information and a link to the ISTPP research on the interesting and apparently controversial subject of the Maharishi Effect, I can only conclude that they don't have any reasonable arguments to stop such an edit.

Instead, the tactic of the activists have swung into personal attack mode (Askolnick and Betty Brahman), in the apparent hope of discrediting their perceived opponents, while intimidating other editors.

I would be amazed if what is going on has been lost on wikipedia admins. In case it has, please find below some pertinent informationthat has been brought to my attention:

<div style="padding:30px; color:green;">
<i>... just wanted to let you know that your ] about ]'s proper participation in ] is well founded he declined to participate in formal mediation:

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

<i>He did not participate in consensus building for a new article version:

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

<i>Then he jumped right in and reverted edits without consensus or discussion. Now we're in the dispute resolution process, once again:

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

<i>If you take this to mediation, I would probably avoid informal mediation such as the mediation cabal, his track record in cooperating with them is, well, I'll let you read for yourself:

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

<i>He launched vicious attacks against both Cabal mediators, Rohirok and Wade Tristhammer.

<i>He has threatened Misplaced Pages with Libel, and continually uses overblown rhetoric, threats and insults to try and invalidate those that disagree with him. He engages in a constant stream of personal attacks. I'm amazed he hasn't been taken to ArbCom for violating NPA:

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</div>

Reading the comments of the activitsts, I would suggest that wikipedia consider keeping this article fully protected for the foreseeable future - it's quite evident what will happen the moment it is released.

And by the way, if wikipedia is serious about resolving the issue: demand Askopnicks detailed response to why the Peterklutz summaries of the ''TM-Sidhi'' and ''Maharishi Effect'' sections shouldn't stand.

And, when no such appears, feel free to reinstate Peterklutz far more enlightening and informative sections on these two sub-subjects.

] 06:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

== Proposal For Fixing This Article ==

I've noticed that valuable parts of this article were removed prior to its being put under full protection. Furthermore, a few individuals are clearly involved in an editing war.

I suggest that individuals who have done more than three edits of the same section be banned from editing this article for a period of one month and that full protection be lifted. That way, cooler heads can work on the article to make it fairly reflect all sides of the controversies. NPOV does not mean that full discussion of controversies is prohibited, just that it be objective. That can be done best by impartial editors. ] 21:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

:Let me see if I understand your suggestion and reasoning: Because valuable parts of this article were removed, the editors who tried to protect those valuable parts should be banned along with the one editor who kept deleting those parts? Do I have your thinking right?

:Call me naive, but shouldn't the person responsible for censoring those valuable parts be banned rather than editors who have been fighting to keep them in? ] 21:47, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

::In any war, it is prudent to treat all parties as fairly and objectively as possible. The basic reasoning is that each participant probably feels that they are right and the others are wrong. Taking sides or criticizing only exacerbates the war. Therefore, my proposal is to ban all recent multiple-edit authors from editing this article, without attempting to evaluate whether they were doing something useful to the article (they will all feel that they were). Misplaced Pages has plenty of good contributors who can take over the reorganization of the article and do a great job. I trust Misplaced Pages, I do not trust edit wars. ] 18:10, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

:For crying out loud, I didn't ask people to take sides. I asked for Wiki policies to be respected and enforced! Wholesale deletion of large amounts of content without adequate justification is clear violation of Wiki policies. According to what you're advocating, the way for a vandal to eliminate someone from contributing to an article is to start an editing war with him or her. Then he/she can be banned for restoring the repeatedly deleted material that even you identified as valuable and should be replaced. It seems that I've fallen down that rabbit hole.] 18:41, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Never thought I'd find myself on the same side as Askolnick, but here we are. proposal just might be the stupidest thing I've ever read - were it not for the fact that this guy has his and, thus, quite possibly an agenda.

There's your real Enemy, Andrew - a true closet-minded secterian entertaning negativity against his fellow seekers and who jsut might be conspiring to turn a negatively spinned TM-article into an ad for his TM-ripoff.

I'll let you in on a little secret, Andrew. I let you know who the Enemy is not:

''He is not a nonagenarian who some fifty years ago gave up a life of blissed solitude in the Himalayas in order to help his fellow men.''

] 21:17, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow! My proposal is really that stupid? I thought and still think it is reasonable and in keeping with the Misplaced Pages philosophy. While it is true that I distribute meditation instruction materials on a nonprofit basis, I can hardly be said to be heading a movement. Furthermore, I don't think there is anything wrong with my agenda (in brief: MMY is a great man who has helped humanity but is currently obsessing on ineffective and elitist tangents, causing TM teachers such as myself to become increasingly alienated), but I also happen to respect the Misplaced Pages philosophy of including facts and representing all sides of controversies. What I want to see for this article is an end of edit wars and a comprehensive, balanced article that errs, if need be, towards inclusion rather than exclusion. ] 14:56, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

:I can't speak to your motivations for doing what you're doing, but you've missed the point about what MMY is doing. Suggest you check out the current push to get TM in the public schools using private funding, specifically to address problems like attention deficit disorder. ] 18:57, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

::I am well aware of what MMY and David Lynch are doing, and it is totally irrelevant to my proposal for ending the edit war on this article. ] 13:00, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

:::Note I didn't comment on your proposal directly, but only on your comment about what MMY is doing. As far as your proposal goes, I see it as entirely self-serving. You've proposed to eliminate the input of the most frequent contributors to this page, thereby allowing yourself a greater hand in determining what gets put in. Andrew and Peter both have a perfect right to contribute to this page, just as I do and you do. The question is of how to resolve the current conflicts, not about who is more worthy of contributing because they happen to not be part of the ongoing ping-pong of editing/revision conflicts. ] 14:32, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be such ego defense (and downright meanness) around here! '''If you would like to include me in the list of editors to be banned, that is fine with me.''' My proposal addresses fixing the article. I do not agree with your implication that only the recent editors are capable of fixing the article. Any objective and experienced editor (and there are lots of them here at Misplaced Pages) can do research on TM and the TM movement and fix the article. The edit war seems to be due to these recent editors each with too much of an attachment to how they want the article to be changed. Since no one person can be identified as responsible for the war, all should be banned from editing the article (for, say, one month). ] 12:32, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

:David, please try harder in your rebuttals not to misrepresent what Sparaig or others say. Sparaig did not say or even imply that "only the recent editors are capable of fixing the article." Also, your claim that "no one person can be identified as reponsible for the war" is clearly contradicted by the record -- not to mention the fact that one HAS been blocked for his "disruptive" conduct. Careful adherence to the facts is not just important to this article, it's also important to this discussion. Any proposed fix for this article needs to be realistic and in the Wiki community's interests, rather than in the interest of any one person or group. As Sparaig argues, blocking others, which would clearly give you a bigger say, is not in this community's interest. ] 13:35, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

:I apologize if I misrepresented anyone's point of view. But, Askolnick, in boldface above, I clearly said that I am willing to be banned too. That would not give me a bigger say, but none at all. I have just been trying to offer a solution to the problem. If you think the problem has already been solved by banning the one person who was responsible for the problem, then why not change the protection back to semi-protect and let everyone fix the article? The reason that my proposal to change the protection back was denied is that the edit war would probably continue. The edit war was clearly NOT caused by one person, but by several people all thinking they are right and others are wrong. The issues aren't even that significant! In any case, I hereby withdraw my proposal, and good luck to you all. ] 20:46, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

== Edit War Comments ==

Call me biased, but my attempts to point out that Denaro's statements about attempts to deceive concerning obtaining research grant money aren't very germane because he was Grants Director during a time when there was only one peer-reviewed study published on TM out of MIU/MUM have been dismissed by YOU as being immaterial. That suggests to me that your agenda to paint all things TM in as poor a light as possible blinds you to obvious truths (as though your projection that I was engaging in an edit war with you haven't already established that). You also enjoy quoting from people with negative comments about TM, such as Denaro, and then dismiss the direct response to Denaro's allegations from the Director of Research at MIU/MUM during that period as just another example of attempts to deceive. My own take on impartiality is that if you're allowed to quote someone with a negative view of MIU/MUM and/or research on TM, we True Believers should be able to quote a formal response from someone who was also there. ] 02:03, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

:'''The last thing you say tie directly into what prompted Asklonick to launch this edit war:''' when I included ISTPP's response whilst not only keeping, but clarifying his criticism (by using better sources then he did).

:'''Pretty Girl (and any other admin whop happen to read this)''' save yourself time and confusion about who's who here and form your own opinion by consulting the sources directly. There are plenty of examples of the misrepresentation and vilification, the latest - the one that got us all into this situation - should be evident when doing this , the remedy to which is summarized .

:] 06:53, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

==What the protecting admin is (not) for==
Call me Shirley, but it's not my role to adjudicate all these quarrels. I'll unprotect when editors have worked them out amongst themselves. Alternatively, if anybody thinks the article is a hopeless ], they're invited to seek mediation, or—ultimately—to request arbitration. Please look for my first-aid links for these things, I'd rather not construct them again. Note that arbitration is the final step of dispute resulution; some attempt to form a consensus should be made first. Please also consider mediation before arbitration, ] you believe there's enough ] around for it—avoid seeking mediation as a mere formality. Please feel free to consult me if anything's unclear. ] | ] 08:22, 30 June 2006 (UTC).

:As always, the ''Devil is in the details'' - and I am still waiting for Askolnick to start discussing in a factual manner the details of the edit Peterklutz made (see section above); and which Askolnick reverted a couple of million times; at which time you were approached with the question to investigate him - upon which your response was to freeze Askolnicks reverted (per)version(!)

:Perhaps the best way to energize Askolnick's sorry ass into discussion is if you bring back the last unvandalized Peterklutz version?

:I am sure Skolnick will have plenty to say then - things that, with some parental guidance, he just might be encouraged to reformulate into some human language others can actually understand?

:] 20:51, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
===Warning===
''Crossposted to ]'':<br>
Peter, perhaps you didn't see my objection to your confrontational habits of speech and persistent attacks on other people's motives some ways up this page. I'll up it to a formal warning: please read ] ("Comment on content, not on the contributor") and desist with the personal attacks '''or I will block you for disruption'''. ] | ] 12:48, 1 July 2006 (UTC).

:Well, we all know where you motives lay now. Thank you for confirming.

:] 13:42, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I see there's a (rather busier) ] as well as the ]. I'd better crosspost to the former as well. In fact there's an unholy mess of sigs, accounts, and IPs over which criticisms, warnings, and your own contributions are dispersed; I mention that as a warning to any other admin who might wish to review your editing. It takes research. ] | ] 14:56, 1 July 2006 (UTC).

== Interesting ==

Now that everyone can't see their name in lights, so to speak, the contributions die away to nothing. ] 22:13, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

== Typo in URL of MUM ==

There is a typo (mum.ed should be mum.edu) in the URL of the MUM in section Criticism and controversions: TM has an adverse effect on its practitioners.

== Re Andrew Skolnick's Cerebral Meltdown ==

<ol>
<li> If everyone is onboard, please use the text/link to MMY's Bhagavad-Gita that I several weeks ago created and inserted into the MMY article (it didn't have one).
<li> By the same token, feel free to do the same with any other book Maharishi Mahesh Yogihas written, including "Love and God."
<li> The mantra section was dropped because it was infactual (Andrew Skolnick does not know what he is talking about).
<li> Was not aware of any comments re TM-teacher defectors in the TM article. A good place for a one-liner about this would be the seciton under Criticsim and Controversies dealing with internal criticism - incidentally another created by myself (to the apparent dismay of anti-TMers, who allege TM-practitioners can't think for themselves).
<li>The allegations about the TM Movement being sexistis is so stupid I considered it an act of mercy toward A Skolnick and his merry band of morons to remove it. If the intelligent reader wishes to re-live the hilariousness ofit - just check the history and learn how the Askolnicks of this world brandishes entire organizations after single individual males at some time allegedly addresses a woman by her first name(!)

Walking on ice that thin - I am surprised Askolnick haven't drowned and reached the bottom a long time ago.

<li>Also when it comes to allegations about lack of intellectual freedom and zero-tolerance, it is evident that Askolnick does not speak from any type of experience of TM, the TM Movement or its founder - in short Andrew Skolnick is utterly unqualified to offer any enlightening comments on this subject what so ever.

In fact,reading his edits, it appears the guy forms his opinions by visiting various TM-critical websites whilst under the influence of controlled substances.

Let's just hope A Skolnick's next enterprice is not to "improve" the wikipedia article on Einstein and his science.

</ol>

:As regards the rest of Askolnick's conspiracy theories I consider it my second act of mercy toward the man not to offer any comments.

:Thank you.

:] 20:48, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

===Civility meltdown --> block===
You have got to be kidding. The last time I warned you about personal attacks, you came right back with an attack on ''my'' motives. And now this namecalling and defamation? I've decided to block you ''only'' for three days, but please be aware that you'll be on probation when the block expires. Civility is a big deal on Misplaced Pages because the lack of it ruins the collaborative process of wiki-editing. That's why ] and ] are official policy. Please click on those links, study the policies, and then take your choice when you next return to this page (or any other); either decide to abide by them—the spirit, the letter, and the common sense of them—or, next time, expect to be blocked a) fast, b) without warning, and c) for a week. ] | ] 23:57, 3 July 2006 (UTC).

:You've gotta be kidding!

:Don't you read the BS Askolnick is pasting the article with right now - which I reported - and you ban me!!!!

:I understand very well that if you ever lock this article down (as you did the TM article) it will only be after Askolnick first has teared it apart.

:Oh,and by the way, where does one report biased admins doing piss poor jobs?

:]

::I suggest posting your report on my back door. My dog ] has run out of chew toys. ] 00:51, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Peter, er, there seems to be a little misunderstanding here. You're ''blocked''. I'm well aware that you have access to other IPs, but "blocked" doesn't mean merely that one particular account of yours is technically prevented from editing. It means the ''person'' is not ''allowed'' to edit. It means don't edit. Editing while blocked is "block evasion", which is a serious violation, and cause for further blocks. Note that there is one exception, that the block message page will have told yoou about: you are both technically able to, and allowed, indeed encouraged, to edit your own talkpage, ] (just give the anonymous IPs a rest, please). All right, let's say you didn't know that (though what you'd think a block that only applied to one account would be ''for'', I can't imagine.) But from the moment I post this on talk:TM and ], just don't edit, unless you want all your IP's blocked for another week. As for reporting biased admins doing piss poor jobs, there is indeed a special page for that: ]. Post a request for review of my admin action there, and other admins will look into it. Just '''don't do it while you're blocked''—blocked means you don't get to edit, remember? But there is one avenue for protestiing a block that you can use while blocked: the ]. Now don't edit any more until the block expires. ] | ] 01:16, 4 July 2006 (UTC).

===TM and the Schools===

One of the reasons that proponents of TM are so anxious to delete any and all information in this article which might adversely affect recruitment into TM (and its corollaries) is that the TM organization, with the support of filmmaker David Lynch, recently launched a major campaign to introduce TM into the public schools in the United States. This has been one of MMY's fondest dreams and one of the reasons he publicly damns democratic government and belittles man-made constitutions in favor of his "Constitution of the Universe" (the Establishment Clause of the U.S. Constitution precludes religious practices in publicly funded schools). Because of the high cost of learning TM, the failure of the organization's political activities (Natural Law Party), and the blatantly Vedic-Hindu nature of its newer programs, initiations in the United States have slowed to a trickle. Teaching TM in the public schools is therefore seen by the TM leadership as the quickest way accomplish MMY's plan to transform the entire world into one big happy Vedic-Hindu society! If there ever was a person with delusions of grandeur, it has to be Mr. Mahesh. Signed, Dazzled in Danbury, 5 July 2006 {{unsigned|149.152.216.49}}

:The TMO has tried lawsuits on occassion only to have them backfire. They've tried other forms of censorship with the same result. I seriously doubt that Peter is an official representative of the TMO given how badly they've been burned in the past (eh Andrew?). BTW, the high price of TM was set by MMY himself over the marked protests by virtually everyone in the TMO. The last time a TM insider challenged the price structure, it was John Hagelin, during a meeting. The rumor is that frail old MMY simply got up and walked out without saying a word. Hagelin shut up after that. However, more recently, David Lynch is reported to have complained that no-one is willing to help support his foundation because of the high price and HE threatened to withdraw his support. MMY is reported to have referred him to John Hagelin to set a new price structure. The educational price for TM is reportedly now $600 per person, if a large enough block of students want to learn. The $2500 fee apparently still stands for individuals and smaller groups. Just a rumor, at this point. ] 09:03, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Peter may not be an official rep of the TMO, but he could very easily be "inspired" by them, if you get my drift (the sutra for "knowing the mind of another" is a subject that has not been broached in these pages?). The $2500 fee has had such a dramatic effect on initiations that one wonders about the motivation behind setting the fee so high. Could it possibly be an act of sheer vindictiveness or manipulation, similar MMY's recent refusal to speak to TM teachers who do not live in Vedically-correct dwellings? DD 6 July 2006 {{unsigned|149.152.216.49}}

===TM and Sexism===

How interesting that PeterKlutz seems to think that the comments about sexism in the TM organization deleted by him from the article on Transcendental Meditation were written by a male! He must find it inconceivable that a female might rise up from the docile ranks of sari-clad belles to challenge male domination of the TM leadership? His assertion (by way of justification) that no generalization should be made on the basis of a single male having addressed a female by her first name is highly amusing. In point of fact, the "single individual" happened to be Bevan Morris, one of the biggest guns in the TM organization, coyly addressing Dr. Susan Dillbeck as "Susie" in front of the camera as he moderated a nationally televised, official TM celebration in which her husband, also on the podium, was addressed by MR. Morris as "Dr. Dillbeck." Also of note: Mrs. Dillbeck was the only female included in the group of "experts" assembled for the occasion. In point of fact, no women were included among the 40 ministers appointed by MMY to head his new government of the "Global Country of World Peace." What message does that send to females who practice TM and to prospective female initiates?

The TM leadership has consistently justified the segregation of females in its courses and facilities by contending that female physiology is weaker (more sensitive) than that of males and must therefore be protected (from what?). Where is the scientific evidence to support this view? In fact, women generally score higher than men on tasks requiring endurance, manage to carry off the difficult physical feat of childbirth, and (statistically speaking) live significantly longer than men. Even assuming that most women ARE capable of a more subtle level of physical functioning than men, should this not justify placing them in positions of leadership where their more refined level of feeling can be put to good use to benefit humanity (undoing the harmful effects of gross mismanagement by males)? No--all this is just bombast! The real roots of the pervasive discrimination against women in the TM organization lie in the intense patriarchy of the Vedic-Hindu tradition, a social system which MMY actively promotes as optimum for the world. In this he is very much out of step with the times. Signed, Feminist Meditators of America, 6 July 2006 {{unsigned|149.152.216.49}}

== Expert contribution ==

I'm doing some computer animation work for Fred Travis, a TM researcher from the TM university, and I mentioned these web-pages. He's expressed an interest in contributing to the pages on MMY and TM. Is there anything he should be aware of when/if he contributes? I know there's a thing against posting "original research," but that applies to things that haven't been published, right? Fred's got a reasonable , keyword: Travis f, so that shouldn't matter. On issues concerning TM theory and whatnot, is it kosher for him to post his own stuff even if it hasn't been published? I know Andrew's posted references to his own articles in Jama and other magazines. ] 20:34, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

:Fine by me. ] 07:55, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

:But it's not fine by Misplaced Pages rules and guidelines. Whether it's fine by you or fine by me, is irrelevant. Please, oh please, read (AND abide by) Wiki rules and guidelines that explain why you may NOT use ] or unpublished information.

::'''No original research is one of three content-governing policies.''' The other two are Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view and '''Misplaced Pages:Verifiability'''. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in the main namespace. Because the three policies are complementary, they should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should therefore try to familiarize themselves with all three. '''These three policies are non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, or by editors' consensus.'''

:Travis - or anybody -- may include information that he or anyone else published in a reputable information source. Non-published information may NOT be included by anybody. The most important principle behind Wiki's policy is verifiability. Readers cannot verify information that is not published in a reputable publication.] 12:21, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

:Just so you know, I am sitting on top of a virtual mountain of important information on TM, Maharishi Mahesh, and many of his researchers. I would love to be able to add some of it. But Wiki rules say NO.] 12:28, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

::I was referring to TM theory, not research. I thought I made it clear. BTW, what "floodgate" of important information do you have. Inquiring minds and all that...] 16:25, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

:Sparaig, do you remember years ago when I coined the name "Dormouse" for you, because of your habit of trancing out and reawaking later in the debate to post a befuddled statement (in honor of Lewis Carroll's Dormouse at the Mad Hatter's tea party)? Well, you appear to be doing it again. Please, or please read and pay attention to Wiki's policy regarding "No Original Research." That's what we're talking about.]

:I have an enormous amount of information collected through the years that have not been published. For example, I would love to include information on how the TM MAV group in Germany placed a crudely forged letter from Ohio State University on its web site that falsely claimed the university repudiated my JAMA report on TM researcher Hari Sharma. You know, the same-ol'-same-ol' deceptive activities I wrote about in 1991. Only now I have another 14-years worth. If you can get Wiki administrators to change the rule against including unpublished original research, be my guest. I'm ready to start publishing this material in Misplaced Pages as soon as it's permitted. Oh, and there's all the stuff that I couldn't put into JAMA because of extremely strick rules regarding non-disclosure of patient information. I'd welcome the opportunity to publish in Wiki how TM MAV superstar Dr. Nancy Londsoff prescribed a $11,000 Maharishi Yagya (religious ceremony to appease the Hindu gods) for a patient who was suffering endometriosis! The TM suckers don't even get to witness the ceremony. They're performed by MMY's holy men in India, while the money goes into the Giggling Guru's swelling coffers. (One really has to admire the man's chutzpah and imagination in finding new ways to liberate his followers from their money.)] 17:52, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

::Actually Andrew, if you reread what I said, I indicated that I didn't see a problem with his discussion of his own published *research* but I was wondering about his potential contributions to anything concerning TM theory. And as for the rest, True Believers who live and work together are well-known for doing stupid things in the name of What Is Right, whether it be forging documents or prescribing Vedic ceremonies for physiological conditions. BTW, while Fred is a TB, I don't get the impression that his published work is skewed beyond a general optimism that TM works, etc. ] 20:52, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

:Again, Sparaig, please read the Wiki rule re No Original Research. Editors are NOT permitted to insert their own unpublished research. And that of course includes their unpublished research on TM theory.

:I agree with you that it is well known that members of the TM movement do "stupid things in the name of What Is Right," such as forging documents and other fraudulent acts. That's why it is vital for articles on TM to discuss the movement's deceptive practices. ]


===Overall Suggestion for more Balanced Editing===

Dear Bishonen,
This comment is to help you decide a strategy for making this article more sensible and accurate.
It’s pretty obvious to most people with experience of TM that TM and Maharishi are very positive forces in the world today, and the vast majority of meditators continue to be very satisfied customers. It is therefore odd that this article lacks much information from the TM side, and is daily blasted by virulent attacks entirely out of proportion to the almost non-existent problems in reality.
However, if one reads a sensible exposition of the history and activities of the scientifically discredited (especially in USA) Anti-Cult Movement (ACM), it all starts to become clear. One immediately sees that the terminology and tactics used by the anti-TM editors are precisely the same as those described in that history.
Here are example links to get that background material:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/acm.htm
http://www.thefamily.org/dossier/statements/brainwashing.htm
http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/cult/usenet/ars-barbaraschwarz-2004-06-29.html

My guess is that most potential pro-TM Misplaced Pages editors are put off by the expectation that their contributions, however reasonable, will immediately be destroyed by the fanatical anti-cult activists, who somehow have the means to spend so much time on their destructive manipulation. It’s a case of “Fools step in……….” They’re probably sensible to stay out of it.

So the challenge to you is how to make Misplaced Pages work in these circumstances. How to stop the constant vandalism by the ACM types, so that the genuine editors will feel safe to contribute.
Maybe you could start by adding a notice at the top explaining that this is the situation and giving links to the ACM background, without which any newcomer will surely be baffled. Then it will be necessary to control the ACM-type editors so some sensible editing can occur.

Or maybe you have another suggestion?
--] 13:55, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

:Acrat, Misplaced Pages is not written for "most people with experience of TM." It is written for everybody. While the opinions of "most people with experience of TM" are important to a TM article, so are the opinions of its critics and others.

:Saying that the vast majority of meditators are very satisfied customers is about as meaningful as saying that the vast majority of Dial soap users are satisfied customers. Unsatisfied customers don't continue buying a company's product. And studies have shown that the majority of people who learn TM don't continue with it. So your statement is very misleading.

:And merely saying the problems in the TM movement are "almost non-existant" will not make those many problems go away. There's not a big enough rug in Misplaced Pages to sweep them under.

:Your attempt to dismiss critical editors by implying that they are members of the "fanatical Anti-Cult Movement," is hardly acting in good faith. If you've ever heard of the murders and suicides in Jonestown, the subway poison gas attack in Tokyo by ], the bioterrorist attack by the ] cult in the U.S., and the vast program of criminal acts by ] leaders in the 1970s, then you should know there is much about cults to criticize. To dismiss critics of cults as part of an evil world conspiracy is, frankly, very cult-like. Cults are not in the least encyclopedic. By their very nature, they suppress information that is inconsistent with the leader's teachings. Misplaced Pages, however, is an encyclopedia. As such, it must include an appropriate representation of facts and opinions from reputable sources in all articles. ] 15:24, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

For the record, I did not imply they were members of an ACM. I connected them by type of terminology and tactics, not by membership. They could be members, or ex-members, or they could simply have learned the approach by self-study or osmosis. But the similarity is too great to be a coincidence.

It is in fact the word "cult" which is not encyclopedic. There is no such thing as a cult. The word exists for the sole purpose of denigrating the object group. This is explained in my sources listed above, which I strongly recommend readers to scan. Encyclopedists should use neutral, factual terms.

Incidentally, by listing these very examples, do you not actually define TM as a non-"cult"? These problems are not found in TM.
--] 19:25, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Another source of confusion is the use of the word "member" in relation to TM. TM is a practice which is done by "meditators". It is learnt by taking a short course. There is no membership, nothing is "joined". Having learnt TM, one is called a "meditator". The practice is recommended to be done twice a day. One who is irregular, or stops for a while, is still called a "meditator", because no one else knows if they do the practice or not, and in many cases people return to the practice after some time. For the same reason, the term "ex-member" has no meaning. The only terms which are meaningful are "meditator", meaning one who has been taught TM, and "non-meditator", meaning one who has not yet done so.

--] 20:15, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


:To the contrary, your more than implied it, you stated that editors who add critical content to the TM article are "fanatical anti-cult activists." You seem to have a very short memory. Right above you claimed:

::"…most potential pro-TM Misplaced Pages editors are put off by the expectation that their contributions, however reasonable, will immediately be destroyed by the fanatical anti-cult activists, who somehow have the means to spend so much time on their destructive manipulation."

:Equally false is your claim, "There is no such thing as a cult." Misplaced Pages certainly disagrees with you. Wiki's article on ] begins with the following definition:

::"In religion and sociology, a cult is a cohesive group of people (often a relatively small and recently founded religious movement) devoted to beliefs or practices that the surrounding culture or society considers to be far outside the mainstream. Its separate status may come about either due to its novel belief system, because of its idiosyncratic practices or because it opposes the interests of the mainstream culture. Other non-religious groups may also display cult-like characteristics."

:Most sociologists and other authorities who study cults consider Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and his followers a cult. (Anyone who may doubt this should visit the Maharishi's campus in Fairfield, Iowa sometime and see how his tranced-out followers walk around with a thermos in hand and a "blissful" smile tatooed on their faces. The thermos is for the warm water that they drink throughout the day, as directed by their guru.

:As for more formal evidence showing that TM is a cult, here's just one example: "Cults in France," is a 1995 commission report for the French National Assembly The report lists Transcendental Meditation as a destructive cult and provides estimates of its size in France and the rest of the world, along with other information on the group. ] 20:35, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

<font color=blue>Peter Klutz</font>
:chee Peter. You give the rest of us neurotics a bad name... ] 11:42, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

::I see what you mean, Sparaig. And Peter, you're getting me a bad name as a ridiculously lenient admin. I've actually never heard of somebody ''not'' getting sanctioned for IP-editing while blocked before. Yet last time it happened, I merely told you politely that perhaps you hadn't realized the block applied to ''all'' editing by you. And here you are again. OK, IP block time. First I remove comments made by blocked user. Guys, I'd appreciate being told about those on my page or by e-mail, I can't be everywhere. Or feel free to revert them yourselves. The appropriate edit summary for that would be something like "Removing post by blocked user". ] | ] 12:13, 12 July 2006 (UTC).

Couple of points to Andrew concerning TM cult-status: Jehova's Witnesses, Church of Christ Scientist, Mormons, and several other relatively well-known groups are mentioned in the French paper you cite, along with Scientology, Moonies, etc. At what point does "cult" simply mean "non-mainstream?" Even the wiki quote you provide gives a rather "broad" definition of cult. Also, MMY himself has objected to the extremism concerning drinking warm water. Does following a fad make one a member of a cult? Finally, perhaps TMers smile a lot because they're happy? There are Buddhist monks who practice emotional manipulation techniques for up to 50,000 hours over the course of their lives. A recent research aticle on meditation made national headlines when the researchers published physiological findings concerning a few such people. Are these people members of a cult because they've self-induced a feeling of compassion? ] 02:38, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

:Now here's a tough one: The opinion of scholars who study destructive cults, or a long-time member and defender of one of those cults -- which shall we believe? That's a real tough choice, Sparaig. Do we believe authoritative scholarship or apologetics? I'll get back to you when I decide. ] 03:13, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

::I've decided. I'm going with the scholars. Sorry, Lawson. ] 03:13, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

:::Interesting that you never responded to my questions, Andrew... Especiallly seeing that none of your own points were included in the article by the scholars... ] 03:23, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I am just addressing a few points raised above:

1. the alleged “many problems” with TM?

Can anyone provide a reliable source for their existence?

Vague references to such dubious problems are typical of the ACM-type editor I described, as explained in one of the sites I cited above, where I found the following quote:

Coleman notes: "When more dispassionate investigators, avoiding such obvious 'mistakes' in methodology, have studied new religious movements, they have found no evidence of mind control or of the mental or physical harms claimed in anti-cult literature" Coleman, Lee. "New Religions and the Myth of Mind Control," American Orthopsychiatric Association, Inc. 54(2), 1984.

The following are references to such investigators and results of their investigations: Bromley and Shupe (1979); Galanter et al., 1979, American Journal of Psychiatry 136: 165-170; Hill (1980); Levine and Salter, 1979, Canadian Psychiatric Association J., 21(6): 411-420; Ungerleider and Wellisch, 1979, American Journal of Psychiatry, 136: 279-282.

The full citations are given on the site.

I have repeated my three citations at the end of this post.

2. A agree that the opinions of critics of TM should be included, provided satisfactory sources are given. If there is a genuine criticism, then let’s hear it, and provide proper evidence, not just pseudoscience.

3. Can anyone provide the citations for the “studies (which) have shown that the majority of people who learn TM don't continue with it”?

4. Please note I did not refer to any “conspiracy” related to editing TM. I just noted the similarity of approach of certain TM editors with the (partly) organised ACM.

5. I agree that a lot of confusion arises when words like “member” and “movement“ are used, whether re the TM Movement or re the ACM. It’s not easy to define the TM Movement, and the article’s definition is probably wrong. I think it refers to a group of people rather than a group of organisations.

6. The word “cult” is not encyclopaedic. The Misplaced Pages Cult page does not reflect the scientific view of the word, which is clearly expressed in the sources I cited above. For example:

Cult: A vicious "snarl" word used:
* By the media to refer to dangerous, destructive religious groups.
* By the anti-cult movement, mainly to refer to a wide range of new religious movements who they accuse of engaging in psychological abuse.
* By the counter-cult movement, mainly to refer to Christian groups that hold one or more non-traditional religious beliefs -- other than those shared by the counter-cult movement.

The term is always hurtful. No group will willingly accept being called a cult. Since the term has so many different and mutually exclusive meanings, we recommend that it not be used as a stand-alone term. If you do use it, we suggest that you carefully modify the word to make its meaning clear, as in "benign cult" or "destructive cult." A better, emotionally neutral term to use is "new religious movement." An even better policy is to use the name of the group itself, without attempting to classify it.

Another example:

cult: "A fashionable buzzword thrown about haphazardly by the media, anti-cultists, establishment ministers (who no longer worry about the label being applied to them). Although the term has a fairly precise technical meaning, it has been run into the ground by persons who indiscriminately attach it to any group not conforming to a narrow range of so-called normal middle-class religions" (Bromley and Shupe 21-22).

Quoted in Biermans, John T. The Odyssey of New Religions Today - A Case Study of the Unification Church. New York: Edwin Mellen Press, 1988. 38-39

These explanations could usefully be incorporated into the Cult page, but until they are, I will continue not to cite it.

7. As clarified in the sources I have cited, it will not be possible to provide a truly scientific source for the statement “Most sociologists and other authorities who study cults consider Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and his followers a cult.” ACM-type pseudo scientists like the late Dr Margaret Singer have made a living out of such assertions, but the true scientists in this field avoid the words “cult” and “mind control” like the plague. My sources expose this in considerable detail, with full citations.

8. Regarding the suggestion that "Cults in France," a 1995 commission report for the French National Assembly, constitutes more formal evidence showing that TM is a cult, this is what one of my above sources has to say:

The "mind control" argument has been promoted by the ACM extensively in Western Europe, leading to the imposition of restrictions on the activities of new religions in some countries. Parliamentary commissions to investigate cults were established in several countries, which included much involvement from European anti-cult organizations, as well as apostate testimony. Many of the fledgling democracies in Eastern Europe have followed the Western European models, imposing even stricter restrictions on the free exercise of religion.
Massimo Introvigne comments on the role the mind control theory has played in raising concern regarding new religions in Europe:
The media, continuously fed by the ACM, started running lurid exposures of the "danger of the cults," and parliaments instituted enquiry commissions in several countries. In the French and Belgian commissions, politicians did collaborate with anti-cult activists and vocal disgruntled ex-members of some new religious movements. Academics got only a minimal audience, and the reports produced by the commissions were largely based on information supplied by the ACM. Although with different nuances, and dismissing the word "brainwashing" as inadequate and old-fashioned, these documents rely on the ACM model distinguishing between religion and cults on the basis of manipulation and mind control. The Belgian report quotes the deposition of the president of the French ADFI , stating that a cult could be distinguished from a religion because the former is "a group where a mental and affective manipulation is present" (Chambre des Représentants de Belgique 1997: 1, 138). According to a militant anti-cult psychiatrist quoted by both the French and the Belgian report, it is not difficult to distinguish between a religion and a cult. Although some features may be similar, a religion is founded on "free will" and there is no "manipulation," while manipulation and mind control are the trademarks of the cults. (Introvigne, "Brainwashing")
Dr. Introvigne further points out that the academic consensus on the brainwashing model is virtually unknown in Europe, and therefore the anti-cult organizations are able to sell this idea with great ease to the press, courts, law enforcement and government officials. In some cases, the national anti-cult organizations have received funding from their governments to support their endeavors against cults, which has further aided their dissemination of religious hatred and intolerance. (end quote)

This shows that the French example is not science-based, and cannot be used to hoodwink US i.a. readers, who require an honest picture of scientific views.

9. I repeat here my sources for all these points

http://www.religioustolerance.org/acm.htm http://www.thefamily.org/dossier/statements/brainwashing.htm http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/cult/usenet/ars-barbaraschwarz-2004-06-29.html

--] 16:27, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

==Full protection removed==
I've unprotected the article, but left semiprotection switched on for the moment. This means that all established users can edit, but IPs can't. Please feel free to edit! It's best to discuss major edits here first, and to avoid full reverts unless you really are removing vandalism. ] | ] 02:18, 13 July 2006 (UTC).

== And so it continues... ==

And of course, as soon as the article is unlocked, Andrew has to contribute a diatribe. Show me a typical encyclopedia article where one of the editors cites his own work extensively in order to provide negative info about a subject. ] 02:43, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

:I simply restored material your fellow TMer Peterklutz deleted in his vandalism attacks. He won't be vandalizing this article again anytime soon. ] 03:02, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

::Fair enough. Does this mean I can quote Jim Lippard's comment to your article's "interesting" use of selective quoting? He's a :

::

::From: James J. Lippard - view profile
::Date: Mon, Dec 26 1994 4:58 pm
::Not yet rated
::You're probably right. I really don't want to be here haggling over this article again. So my responses may not be complete. As perspective. I am a strict, maybe rigid, supporter of MEDRS. So, the subtle implication that I am supporting bias is frustrating. This article is not moribund, it's stable after years of contention. Let's see if I can make my position clear, as apparently I haven't. My perceptions.
::show options

::In article <3dnj83$...@news.primenet.com>, engl...@primenet.com (Lawson
::- Hide quoted text -

::"English) wrote:
:::"> 1) his quote of Deepak Chopra's autobiography in Skolnick's JAMA article - '"In his book _Return of the RIshi (Boston, MASS Houghton Mifflin Co; 1988: 139), CHopra repeats an old Indian saying, '"Four things in life you must cherish: first the guru, then your parents, next your wife and children, and finally your nation." Former members of the TM movement say that their belief in the Maharishi was so great that they would have done anything the guru asked.' (Maharishi Ayurv-Veda: Guru's Marketing Scheme Promises the World Eternal 'Perfect Health', A. Skolnick, JAMA October 2, 1991 -Vol 266, No. 13).

::::> Well, I can't comment on anyone's dedication or belief in their guru, but here is a "rather" more fully in-context version of the same quote:

:::>

:::> "Whatever else we are, doctors are not good followers. I made excuses for a day or two. My psychologist friend continued to call me, and I could tell that he wondered at my reluctance. But I had placed a long distance between myself and any idea of having a guru. I would not have started TM in the first place if it hadn't allowed me to meditate on my own. In that respect, even though I was raised in India, I am a child of my times. There is an old saying in India:
::::'Four things in life you must cherish: first the guru, then your parents, next your wife and children and finally the nation.'
:::No one knows how old the saying is, old enough to seem permanent. But the changeless has changed. I talked to Rita about the troublesome invitation, and we decided that our curiousity was stronger than our timidity. We went." (_Return of the Rishi_ pp 138-9).

:::> Taken in context, this quote from Dr. Chopra's book has exactly the opposite meaning from how Skolnick would have you interpret it.


::::This case seems about as clear-cut a case of out-of-context quotation as you could care to have--it would be quite at home in a publication of the Institute for Creation Research. I'd like to hear Mr. Skolnick's explanation. Was this an accident?


] 03:06, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
==Teachers Breaking Away==
I'd like to restore the following information to the article about TM teachers who have broken with Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and are teaching TM or a comparable technique inexpensively. I know some of you have objections, so I would like to know what they are before I edit the article. Perhaps I can rework the addition so that it is acceptable to everyone. ] 20:23, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
:Can I put in a blurb about my former McDonald's restaurant in the segment about McDonald's? We use the same recipes, but we don't do any advertising or have the overhead of a coporate HQ and so on, so we charge less... Can I mention us? Please, please? ] 20:49, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
::After checking the website, its more like: we don't use the same ingredients, have no quality control, but we do have a few customers that like us and some of us used to work for McDonald's, so can we please include a blurb about our restaurant in the entry about McDonald's? ] 21:03, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
===Text To Be Added===
Many TM teachers feel that a course fee of $2500 USD to learn TM is unreasonable, in view of Maharishi's longstanding claims that the technique is everyone's birthright and that everyone should practice it. As evidence of this unreasonableness, TM initiations have declined to a trickle and some of Maharishi's TM teachers have broken with him to offer a comparable technique at considerably lower prices. They include in the UK and in Italy and the USA.<unsign post from David Spector>

:That would be comparable to wanting to put a plug for Burger King in an article on McDonalds. TM is a registered trademark. I know that the cult likes to have it both ways -- claiming that that it's an ancient meditation technique at the same time claiming that it's a trademark meditation technique owned by Maharishi's organization. But the truth is that it is a trademarked brand of meditation techniques. Because it's trademarked, nobody else can offer to teach it without license from the TM organization. So what break-away TMers are offering cannot legally be TM, for the same reason that Burger King can never sell discount Big Macs and McDonalds can never offer Whoppers. And an article on TM is no place to promote these generic brands of transcendental meditation. The most e-ink that should be given to them should be a brief mention that some TM teachers split from the organization are are teaching almost identical meditation techniques at substantially lower costs in competition with their former guru.] 23:24, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
::What you say aout breakaway TM teachers is certainly the case. However, the second URL doesn't appear to be related to TM at all, as far as I can tell. ] 02:02, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

== Hey Andrew... ==

Andrew, if what Chopra and company did was so extraordinarily wrong, why isn't there a 6 page expose on this new incident in JAMA?


July 13, 2006
Medical Journal Says It Was Again Misled
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

CHICAGO, July 12 — For the second time in two months, The Journal of
the American Medical Association says it was misled by researchers
who failed to reveal financial ties to drug companies.


The source in question is poor per MEDRS. It includes 2 studies, only one is about TM. MEDRS is meant to protect the reader from "Fringe" information- information that may with time become mainstream, but not now. As long as we have physicians who use Misplaced Pages for diagnosis( I'd head for the door if my physician did this), we have a responsibility to include only replicated studies/information. This review, such as it is, is not showing replicated information.
The journal is tightening its policies for researchers as a result.


The source very clearly says,"The small number of studies included in this review do not permit any conclusions to be drawn on the effectiveness of meditation therapy for anxiety disorders. Transcendental meditation is comparable with other kinds of relaxation therapies in reducing anxiety,..." the source does not make an overarching statement about anxiety and TM. This article is, however, making an over arching statement; we are misrepresenting the source in part by deliberately excluding context: The small number of studies does not allow any conclusions to be drawn. TM is comparable....
Dr. Catherine DeAngelis, the journal's editor in chief,


The section has been organized by date. ] does not forbid basic information about the source being used. Using ] as some kind of edit summary seems disingenuous to me. There is implied consensus in a years long stable article that you ignored in favor of your own edit leaving a bald, dateless inaccurate statement.
said her main concern was the impact on readers, who she said needed
to know about researchers' financial conflicts of interest to
properly evaluate their studies.


The MEDRS position would be to remove the source. There is no replication, and there was not enough information to draw any conclusions.
The latest incident, disclosed in letters to the editor and a
correction in Wednesday's journal, involves a study showing that
pregnant women who stop taking antidepressants risk slipping back
into depression.


Finally, as an experienced editor you know that the only way I can deal further with this issue is to edit war and to enter the morass that follows that kind of contention. I attempted to compromise by agreeing with an edit you made, whether I bought the argument or not, but you went further with out agreement. I either walk away or am forced into an edit war. Is there frustration at being forced into such a position. Yes. But I don't care enough to engage in that kind of mess.
Most of the 13 authors have financial ties to drug companies
including antidepressant makers, but only two of them revealed their
ties when the study was published in February.


The article as it stands now is weaker than it was, if MEDRS is a legitimate standard. I think it is. ] (]) 17:48, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
Antidepressant use during pregnancy is controversial, and some
studies have suggested that the drugs could pose risks to the fetus.


:{{tq|Finally, as an experienced editor you know that the only way I can deal further with this issue is to edit war}} &larr; not at all, you could raise a query at ]. But if you are going to argue that a Cochrane review is poor or fringe you'd better have a strong case! It is hallmark of good systematic reviews that they exclude poor sources; poor reviews tend to include all sorts of crap. But surely the main point is that this is the ONLY review of TM/Anxiety in existence. Unless you know of others? ] (]) 18:28, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
The authors of the study defended their research in a letter to the
editor published Wednesday. The lead author, Dr. Lee Cohen of
Massachusetts General Hospital, who is on the speaker's bureau for
eight drug companies, disputed that such ties could influence
findings. {{unsigned|Sparaig|03:58, 14 July 2006}}


::You've sidestepped once again: Why did you remove a date? And, the content you support does not faithfully reflect the source.
== Telephone effect and wiki articles... ==
:: No one suggested Cochrane in and of itself is not reliable. No source is valuable to us unless it specifically supports specific content and complies with our standards.
:: No one suggested the review is fringe.
:: I don't have to go to a notice board to know the content you are supporting does not reflect the source. Further NB are often a time sink, and the positions raised there are not binding on any article. Often they are a waste of time, of which I have little, in part because they are not binding
:: For starters, please look at the rest of the reviews in the section for TM and anxiety.
::I've done what I can do here. Best wishes. ] (]) 16:39, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
:::A date is only needed if the information is time-bound in some way. Has the view on TM/Anxiety changed? Per ] we should just deliver the knowledge payload without needless detail. The conclusion of the review says "The small number of studies included in this review do not permit any conclusions to be drawn on the effectiveness of meditation therapy for anxiety disorders" which we summarize well (i.e. no good evidence to support). As to other sources: good tip. That Goyal source is comparatively recent (2014), but was badly mis-summarized. ] (]) 16:57, 8 January 2024 (UTC)


== Maharishi effect ==
What a fine example of the telephone effect. The article now contains information that was discredited by the TMO itself about 2 decades ago ("radically reduced metabolism" and I'm sure that if I attempt to correct the misconception, someone will accuse me of being anti-TM. Sigh. <unsigned post from Sparaig>


"The square root of 1%" is 10%. I'm not sure what 0.00016% is in relation to 1%, but it's not the square root. ] (]) 18:36, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
I cannot make heads or tails of what you are saying, please clarify.
:What they mean is: the square root of (one per cent (1%) of the population), not (the square root of one per cent (1%)) of the population. --] (]) 06:02, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
:I've rewritten that part of the article, omitting the 0.00016%. It appears that the global population was ~4 billion in 1974, 1% of that is 40 million, and √(40 million) is 6324.5553 (0.000158% of 4 billion) <span style="white-space: nowrap;">] (]・])</span> 16:04, 13 May 2024 (UTC)


== Yogic Flying ==
If you have a source that discredits that finding, cite it and post it! ] 02:24, 16 July 2006 (UTC)


The Journal of Conflict Resolution, 1988, published "International Peace Project in the Middle East: The Effects of the Maharishi Technology of the Unified Field." This study indicates a small group A of Transcendental Meditation peace experts practicing Yogic Flying (the √1% of the regional population), and thereby creating more EEG coherent brains, was time-lag correlated to B, reduced warfare in Lebanon. Cross-lagged panel correlation compares the synchronous correlation (the correlation between two variables at the same time) with the lagged correlations (the correlation of a variable with another variable at earlier and later times). The hypothesis that A is causing B is supported if variations in A are followed in time by correlated changes in B, whereas changes in B are not followed in time by correlated changes in A. "Cross-correlations and transfer functions indicated that the group had a leading relationship to change on the quality-of-life indicators, supporting a causal interpretation." </nowiki> ] (]) 07:30, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
:Whether comprehendable or not, Sparaig, please sign all your contributions. Thanks.


:Amazing bollocks eh! But why raise it? ] (]) 07:35, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
:BTW, I word searched the article for "metabolism" and found nothing. Dormouse, are you sure you're not having a trance dream? There is nothing in the article about "radically reduced metabolism." ] 06:32, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
:Dear Editor,
:Here is further evidence why you post my edit from the Journal of Conflict Resolution.
:“A causal law of nature means no more and no less than that A is always followed by B (Kemeny, 1959),” said Dr. John G. Kemeny, former colleague of Einstein, and former President of Dartmouth College. This causal law satisfies the requirement made by non-TM peer review editors that TM causes the creation of a EEG coherent brain, increased IQ and intelligence scores, increased moral and ethical reasoning scores, more loving behavior, reduced school suspensions and expulsions, fewer hospitalizations in all disease categories, a longer average life span of about 15 years, relief from suicidal PTSD by veterans, and when only 1% of society practices TM, significantly decreased accident rates, decreased crime rates, and improved economic indicators like increased gross domestic product, and rising international stock markets.
:Non-TM peer review editors confirm: The chance of error in the TM crime reduction studies, is only p < .0000000000000000001. In normal studies p < .01 means there is an excellent chance — 99 per cent — that the difference in outcomes would NOT be observed if the intervention had no benefit whatsoever. So p < .000000000000000001 means it is virtually certain, statistically, that the TM intervention caused the war deaths to fall 76%.
:Non-TM peer review editors confirm: In TM crime reduction studies, other possible causes (weekends, holidays, weather, police procedures, government initiatives, etc.) are statistically controlled for.
:Non-TM peer review editors confirm: TM peace intervention studies are announced (predicted) ahead of time (before the TM intervention).
:To sum up, non-TM peer review editors confirm: Using the compound probability model , cross-lagged panel correlation (CLPC), Box-Jenkins ARIMA impact assessment, transfer function analyses, the Akaike Information Criterion (AIC), Liu’s linear transfer function (LTF), Ljung-Box Q statistic (showing joint probabilities of autocorrelations in residuals were insignificant, indicating statistical adequacies), robustness checks with “pseudovariables” (to rule out spurious effects), etc., 19 published studies indicate causality and rule out reverse causation for the TM crime reduction effect.https://istpp.org/news/2017_03-field-effects-of-consciousness-peer-reviewed-studies.html ] (]) 09:10, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
::That crackpot institution is not a ]. --] (]) 09:15, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
:::This Journal Of Conflict Resolution study on Yogic Flying time-lagged correlated to reduction of warfare includes authors Charles N. Alexander affiliated with Department of Psychology and Social Relations, Harvard University; and Wallace E. Larimore affiliated with Computational Engineering, Inc., Woburn, Massachusetts.
:::Please see for yourself at: </nowiki> ] (]) 09:49, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
::::While Charles N. Alexander did receive his , at the time of the publication of this paper he was a faculty member of the "Department of Psychology" at Maharishi University of Management, then known as Maharishi International University.<ref>{{cite journal |last1=Schmidt-Wilk |first1=Jane |title=A Biographical Sketch of Charles 'Skip' Alexander (1949–1998) |journal=Journal of Adult Development|date=2000 |volume=7 |issue=4 |pages=289–290 |doi=10.1023/A:1009584000035}}</ref> The claimed contemporaneous affiliation to Harvard is evidently a disingenuous one, made to give a (false) imprimatur of legitimacy to an otherwise obviously ridiculous research study, as the subsequent points out. <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#4682B4 0.1em 0.1em 1.5em,#4682B4 -0.1em -0.1em 1.5em;color:#000000">]— ]</span> 10:17, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
:::::Thanks, but back to the specific statistics approved by the non-TM peer review editors of the Journal of Conflict Resolution. We will see that cross correlation and transfer functions are used to determine and define causal notation, commonly used in the social sciences, as in A, Yogic Flying, causing B, reduction of warfare.
:::::Cross-correlation is the measurement of how well two independent signals resemble each other, a concept also known as cross-similarity. "'''cross-correlation''' is a ] of two series as a function of the displacement of one relative to the other... It is commonly used for searching a long signal for a shorter, known feature. It has applications in ]."]] Here the pattern is when the number of Yogic Flyers reaches a threshold, A, the number of war deaths B, decline. And when the number of Yogic Flyers, A, falls below the threshold, the war deaths, B, increase.
:::::A transfer function is a convenient way to represent a linear, time-invariant system in terms of its input-output relationship. "a transfer function of a system, sub-system, or component is a mathematical function that models the system's output for each possible input. "a '''transfer function''' (also known as '''system function''' or '''network function''') of a system, sub-system, or component is a ] that ] the system's output for each possible input. "]] Here the transfer function models the system's output (war deaths) for each possible input (number of Yogic Flyers).
:::::'''"Causal notation''' is ] used to express cause and effect.
:::::"In nature and human societies, many phenomena have causal relationships where one phenomenon A (a cause) impacts another phenomenon B (an effect). Establishing causal relationships is the aim of many scientific studies across fields ranging from ] and ] to ] and ]."]] Here as Harvard trained quantum physicist John Hagelin explains, when group EEG coherence reaches a threshold (from the technology of Yogic Flying), the effect is war deaths reduce.
:::::Here is a list of the 19 peer review studies using statistics like cross-correlation and transfer functions, approved by the non-TM peer review editors, as causal notation. Please check out these mainstream journals:
:::::Assimakis P., & Dillbeck, M. C. (1995). Time series analysis of improved quality of life in Canada:  Social change, collective consciousness, and the TM-Sidhi program. ''Psychological Reports'' ''76''(3), 1171–1193.
:::::Cavanaugh, K. L., & Dillbeck, M. C. (2017a). The contribution of proposed field effects of consciousness to the prevention of U.S. accidental fatalities: Theory and empirical tests. ''Journal of Consciousness Studies,'' ''24''(1–2), 53–86.
:::::Cavanaugh, K. L, & Dillbeck, M. C. (2017b). Field effects of consciousness and reduction in U.S. urban murder rates: Evaluation of a prospective quasi-experiment. ''Journal of Health and Environmental Research, 3''(3–1), 32–43.
:::::Davies, J. L., & Alexander, C. N. (2005).  Alleviating political violence through reducing collective tension: Impact assessment analysis of the Lebanon war. ''Journal of Social Behavior and Personality,'' ''17''(1), 285–338.
:::::Dillbeck, M. C. (1990). Test of a field theory of consciousness and social change: Time series analysis of participation in the TM-Sidhi program and reduction of violent death in the U.S. ''Social Indicators Research'' ''22''(4), 399–418.  
:::::Dillbeck, M. C., Banus, C. B., Polanzi, C., & Landrith III, G. S. (1988). Test of a field model of consciousness and social change: The Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi program and decreased urban crime. ''The Journal of Mind and Behavior'' ''9''(4), 457–486.
:::::Dillbeck, M. C., & Cavanaugh K. L. (2016). Societal violence and collective consciousness: Reduction of U.S. homicide and urban violent crime rates. ''SAGE Open'', ''6''(2), 1–16.
:::::Dillbeck, M. C., & Cavanaugh K. L. (2017). Group practice of the Transcendental Meditation® and TM-Sidhi® program and reductions in infant mortality and drug-related death: A quasi-experimental analysis. ''SAGE Open'', ''7''(1), 1–16.
:::::Dillbeck, M. C., Cavanaugh, K. L., Glenn, T., Orme-Johnson, D. W., & Mittlefehldt, V. (1987).  Consciousness as a field: The Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi program and changes in social indicators. ''The Journal of Mind and Behavior'' ''8''(1), 67–104.
:::::Dillbeck, M. C., Landrith III, G. S., & Orme-Johnson, D. W. (1981). The Transcendental Meditation program and crime rate change in a sample of forty-eight cities. ''Journal of Crime and Justice'' ''4'', 25–45.
:::::Fergusson L. C. (2016). Vedic science-based education, poverty removal and social wellbeing: A case history of Cambodia from 1980-2015. ''Journal of Indian Education'', ''31''(4), 16-45.
:::::Hagelin, J. S., Rainforth, M.V., Orme-Johnson, D. W., Cavanaugh, K. L., Alexander, C. N., Shatkin, S. F., … Ross, E. (1999). Effects of group practice of the Transcendental Meditation program on preventing violent crime in Washington, DC: Results of the National Demonstration Project, June–July 1993. ''Social Indicators Research,'' ''47''(2), 153–201.
:::::Hatchard, G., & Cavanaugh, K. L. (2017). The effect of coherent collective consciousness on national quality of life and economic performance indicators—An analysis of the IMD index of national competitive advantage. ''Journal of Health and Environmental Research, 3''(3–1), 16–31.
:::::Hatchard, G. D., Deans, A. J., Cavanaugh, K. L., & Orme-Johnson, D. W. (1996). The Maharishi Effect: A model for social improvement. Time series analysis of a phase transition to reduced crime in Merseyside metropolitan area. ''Psychology, Crime & Law,'' ''2''(3), 165–174.  
:::::Orme-Johnson, D. W., Dillbeck, M. C., Alexander, C. N., Chandler, H. M., & Cranson, R. W. (2003). Effects of large assemblies of participants in the Transcendental Meditation® and TM-Sidhi® program on reducing international conflict and terrorism. ''Journal of Offender Rehabilitation'', ''36''(1–4), 283–302.
:::::Orme-Johnson, D. W., Alexander, C. N., & Davies, J. L. (1990). The effects of the Maharishi Technology of the Unified Field: Reply to a methodological critique. ''Journal of Conflict Resolution, 34''(4), 756–768.
:::::Orme-Johnson, D. W., Alexander, C. N., Davies, J. L., Chandler, H. M., & Larimore, W. E. (1988). International peace project in the Middle East: The effect of the Maharishi Technology of the Unified Field. ''Journal of Conflict Resolution'' ''32''(4), 776–812.
:::::Orme-Johnson, D. W., Dillbeck, M. C., Alexander, C. N. (2003). Effects of large assemblies of participants in the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi program on reducing international conflict and terrorism. ''Journal of Offender Rehabilitation'', ''36''(1–4), 283–302.
:::::Orme-Johnson, D. W., & Oates, R. M. (2009). A field-theoretic view of consciousness: Reply to critics. ''Journal of Scientific Exploration, 22''(3), 139–166. ] (]) 11:01, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
{{od|5}}
You made a claim about the authorship of the paper for which you advocate inclusion, to counter {{u|Hob Gadling}}'s pointing out, not inaccurately, that a paper emerging from such a {{tq|crackpot institution is not a ]}}. When your claim is shown to be false, you change the subject.
You've changed the subject to one which you apparently know even less about than accurately examining the authorship of a joke research study. The analysis "{{tq|commonly used in the social sciences}}" to determine causation from multiple variables is ], not cross-correlation. <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#4682B4 0.1em 0.1em 1.5em,#4682B4 -0.1em -0.1em 1.5em;color:#000000">]— ]</span> 11:15, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
::::::'''INTERSUBJECT EEG COHERENCE: IS CONSCIOUSNESS A FIELD?'''
::::::As Harvard trained quantum physicist John Hagelin explains inter subject EEG coherence at a distance explains the time-lagged correlation of warfare reduction in Lebanon, from a small group of TM experts. The rise of EEG coherence in the small group, radiates out and causes other people's (warfare combatants) EEG coherence to improve. Then the warring groups become more coherent and begin to cease aggression. Hagelin says this represents a theoretic field effect propagated by the unified field of physics. This Maharishi Effect has been replicated in numerous mainstream peer review journal studies in which the editors are not practicing TM. Never the less, these brilliant editors have endorsed the experimental designs and statistical notations for causality.
::::::Abstract: EEG coherence was measured '''''between''''' pairs of three different subjects during a one-hour period practice of the Transcendental Meditation (TM) program. Coherence between subjects was evaluated for two sequential fifteen minute periods. On six experimental days, these periods preceded and then coincided with a fifteen minute period during which '''''2500''''' students participated in the TM-Sidhi program at a course over lo00 miles away. After the course had ended coherence was evaluated on six control days.
::::::It was found that intersubject coherence was generally low, between '''0.35''' and '''0.4,''' with coherence in the alpha (8-12 Hz) and beta '''(16-20''' Hz) frequencies significantly higher than at other frequencies. On the experimental days, intersubject '''EEG''' coherence increased during the experimental period relative to the fifteen minute baseline period immediately preceding the experimental period. Coherence increased significantly from baseline to experimental periods '''on''' experimental days compared with control days (p = 0.02). This effect was particularly evident in the alpha and beta frequencies. The results reinforce previous sociological studies showing decreased social disorder in the vicinity of TM and TM-Sidhi participants and are discussed in terms of a field theoretic view of consciousness. </nowiki> ] (]) 11:38, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
:Maharishi International University is a 501(c)3 nonprofit university accredited by the Higher Learning Commission, not a crackpot institution. The President of MIU is Dartmouth and Harvard trained quantum physicist John Hagelin. How many presidents of other universities can come close to his scientific achievements, I ask you, Sir? "In 1992, Hagelin received a ] from the North Dallas Chamber of Commerce "for his promising work in particle physics in the development of supersymmetric grand unified field theory"...During his time at CERN, SLAC and MUM, Hagelin worked on supersymmetric extensions of the standard model and grand unification theories. His work on the ] heterotic ] is considered one of the more successful unified field theories, or "theories of everything", and was highlighted in 1991 in a cover story in '']'' magazine.
:From 1979 to 1996, Hagelin published over 70 papers about ], ], ], ] and ], most of them in academic scientific journals. He co-authored a 1983 paper in '']'', "Weak symmetry breaking by radiative corrections in broken supergravity", that became one of the 103 most-cited articles in the physical sciences in 1983 and 1984. In a 2012 interview in ''Science Watch'', co-author Keith Olive said that his work for the 1984 study was one of the areas that had given him the greatest sense of accomplishment. A 1984 paper by Hagelin and John Ellis in '']'', "Supersymmetric relics from the big bang", had been cited over 500 times by 2007."]]
:"The most common form of regression analysis is ], in which one finds the line (or a more complex ]) that most closely fits the data according to a specific mathematical criterion."]]
:Following is a link to a diagram from the Journal of Conflict Resolution study that illustrates the proposed causal notation between A, the number of TM-Sidhi participants, and B, the improved quality of life index in Israel and reduction of conflict in Lebanon. You can see the 2 lines represent the data that illustrate the time lag that B always follows A, that former President of Dartmouth, John Kemeny, defined as the requirement for causality.
:https://uk.tm.org/documents/12132/34409314/image_maharishi_effect_5.png/ ] (]) 12:29, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
::: "The most common form of regression analysis is ], in which one finds the line (or a more complex ]) that most closely fits the data according to a specific mathematical criterion."]]
::: Here is a link illustrating 2 lines for their mathematical relation of TM-Sidhi Intervention Period and a time-lag to reduction of crime in DC. Again this is a chart illustrating causal notation defined by statistics.
::: 4,000 participants in the TM-Sidhi programme gathered in Washington DC for a six-week demonstration project in 1993. Predictions were lodged in advance with a 27-member independent review panel and advertised in the ''Washington Post.''(8) The results provide evidence of a dosage effect: when numbers participating increased, the effects were greater. Findings showed a 23.3% reduction in total violent crime during the project period, as well as increased approval ratings for President Clinton. In addition, accidents, emergency psychiatric calls, hospital trauma cases and complaints against police all decreased, while a quality of life index improved.(9,10)
::https://uk.tm.org/documents/12132/34409314/image_maharishi_effect_3.png/ ] (]) 12:51, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
::::Following is a link to a diagram that illustrates the proposed causal relationship between US per capita consumption of ] and the ] in ]. And here's one showing the relationship between the number of google searches for "best schools" and the number of ]s in ]. You can, one hopes, see the problem. <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#4682B4 0.1em 0.1em 1.5em,#4682B4 -0.1em -0.1em 1.5em;color:#000000">]— ]</span> 12:53, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
:::::Thank you for your very intelligent insight with these 2 diagrams showing correlations that are not causal. It is clear you perceive the correlation between Yogic Flying and war reduction as non-causal. To you and your colleague Misplaced Pages editors, Yogic Flying causing war reduction is as ridiculous as the consumption of margarine causing the Maine divorce rate or visa versa.
:::::However, as I have tried to explain, the Maharishi Effect studies always involve statistical techniques, that show a time lag between line A and line B (as in the Lebanon study), indicating causality. One precedes the other. A always precedes B. This is the requirement for causality. "In nature and human societies, many phenomena have causal relationships where one phenomenon A (a cause) impacts another phenomenon B (an effect)." Cross correlations combined with transfer functions can prove your 2 diagrams are correlated but not related causally. Whereas in the TM-Lebanon study, cross correlations combined with transfer functions prove the 2 lines are correlated but one line (A) slightly leads the other line (B) showing TM experts cause warfare reduction. A leads B. This is not true in the correlation of consumption of margarine and the Maine divorce rate. Margarine consumption, A, does not lead the Maine divorce rate, B, or visa versa. For your diagrams, A does NOT lead B.
::::: Furthermore the Maharishi Effect studies have multiple replications in many parts of the world, all indicating causality by statistical techniques.
:::::Therefore Hagelin is proposing the Maharishi Effect is a law of nature propagated by the unified field. He is proposing the coherent brain is the basis of world peace. He is saying the Maharishi Effect is evidence of the unified field, which is usually researched only in particle accelerators and atomic labs. This is one reason the TM scientists are using physics functions like cross-correlations and transfer functions. It is a coherent proposal because as I cited above inter subject EEG coherence occurs across long distances. The source of the higher brain EEG synchrony is coming from the Yogic Flying group, as measured. ] (]) 13:46, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
::::: "The most common form of regression analysis is ], in which one finds the line (or a more complex ]) that most closely fits the data according to a specific mathematical criterion."]]
::::: Here is link showing rising lines for improvement of Norway's and Sweden's economies when the Maharishi Effect Threshold was achieved.
::::: Increased national economic strength and competitiveness in New Zealand and Norway. Scores on the Institute for Management Development (IMD) Index of National Competitive Advantage increased significantly for New Zealand and Norway when the number of people practising Transcendental Meditation exceeded 1% of the national population, in comparison to 44 other developed nations over a 7-year period. Subsidiary analysis and Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) data confirmed that the observed economic improvements were unusually broad-based, sustained, and balanced in nature, with five years of high growth, low unemployment, and low inflation. For New Zealand, a cost-benefit analysis of coherence creation through Transcendental Meditation conservatively estimated the gain to the nation at $320 for every $1 invested in implementing the programme.(24
::::https://uk.tm.org/documents/12132/34409314/image_maharishi_effect_7.png/ ] (]) 12:58, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
::::::Misplaced Pages is not a platform for the propagation of credulous horseshit claiming that arse-bouncing leads to world peace. ] (]) 14:10, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
::::::{{tq|cross correlations combined with transfer functions prove the 2 lines are correlated but one line (A) slightly leads the other line (B) showing TM experts cause warfare reduction. A leads B}} One leading another does not prove anything at all. The text you posted above does prove that you do not understand statistical regression. <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#4682B4 0.1em 0.1em 1.5em,#4682B4 -0.1em -0.1em 1.5em;color:#000000">]— ]</span> 15:31, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
:::::::You are right the above 2 posts with 2 lines for Norway (green) and New Zealand (blue), and 2 lines for actual DC crime (red) and the time series predicted crime without creating coherence group (green) DO NOT represent linear regression because they are not lines for independent and dependent variables. Thanks for pointing it out. My mistake sorry. I admit I am not an expert in linear regression.
:::::::However, the following is correct. What I meant by A leads B in the J of Conflict Resolution is the independent variable always precedes or leads the dependent variable. In a causal correlation B always follows A. The hypothesis that A is causing B is supported if variations in A are followed in time by correlated changes in B, whereas changes in B are not followed in time by correlated changes in A. "Cross-correlations and transfer functions indicated that the group had a leading relationship to change on the quality-of-life indicators, supporting a causal interpretation."
:::::::Therefore my original edit is correct and should be posted by you under Yogic Flying please:
:::::::The Journal of Conflict Resolution, 1988, published "International Peace Project in the Middle East: The Effects of the Maharishi Technology of the Unified Field." This study indicates a small group A of Transcendental Meditation peace experts practicing Yogic Flying (the √1% of the regional population), and thereby creating more EEG coherent brains, was time-lag correlated to B, reduced warfare in Lebanon. Cross-lagged panel correlation compares the synchronous correlation (the correlation between two variables at the same time) with the lagged correlations (the correlation of a variable with another variable at earlier and later times). The hypothesis that A is causing B is supported if variations in A are followed in time by correlated changes in B, whereas changes in B are not followed in time by correlated changes in A. "Cross-correlations and transfer functions indicated that the group had a leading relationship to change on the quality-of-life indicators, supporting a causal interpretation." </nowiki>
:::::::I wear a Christ cross and Mother Mary medallion but find no conflict in practicing TM. I would not believe the Maharishi Effect either if it were not for about 40 studies showing causality by cross-correlations, transfer functions, etc. My friend Father Thomas Keating, Abbot of St. Joseph’s Abbey, Spencer, MA, who practiced Transcendental Meditation (TM), and lived to be 95, believed in what Lord Christ said, “The Kingdom of Heaven is within you,” and, “Seek ye first the Kingdom of Heaven and all else shall be added unto thee.” Perhaps he could better explain the Maharishi Effect than I? ] (]) 20:08, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
::::::::Misplaced Pages isn't the slightest bit interested in what religious symbols you wear, or what your personal religious beliefs are. You aren't going to be permitted to add this credulous horseshit to the article for the same reasons that all the previous promoters of said horseshit haven't been. Feel free to read the archives (linked at the top of this page) for past attempts, and for why they have not been accepted. Or alternatively, read ] - this is an essay, rather than policy, but it summarises nicely the opinions of Misplaced Pages contributors at large, and forms the background to the policies which prevent the article being used to promote arse-bouncing for world peace. ] (]) 21:48, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
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State of the research

I'm adding this so we can begin to look at potential updates to the research on TM. I had requested above we not make changes until Doc James is back on Misplaced Pages or 6 months to give him a chance to be part of this. I can't enforce this of course, but I am complying with this and hope others will too. I can add results from newer research if wanted.

Problematic sources


•Transcendental meditation for the primary prevention of cardiovascular disease (2017)

Louise HartleyAngelique MavrodarisNadine FlowersEdzard ErnstKaren Ree

Withdrawn

From the review. This Cochrane Review has been superseded. See 'Meditation for the prevention and management of heart disease'. The editorial group responsible for this previously published document have withdrawn it from publication.


•Meditation therapy for anxiety disorders (2006)

T Krisanaprakornkit 1, W Krisanaprakornkit, N Piyavhatkul, M Laopaiboon•"

  Limited to two studies and only one on TM (Review of one primary study). Authors consider the review limited in scope/more research needed.


• Meditation practices for health: state of the research. (2007)

Maria B Ospina, Kenneth Bond, Mohammad Karkhaneh, Lisa Tjosvold, Ben Vandermeer, Yuanyuan Liang, Liza Bialy, Nicola Hooton, Nina Buscemi, Donna M Dryden, and  Terry P Klassen

Archived Archived for historical reference only


More recent review/clinical updates


•Transcendental meditation for lowering blood pressure: An overview of systematic reviews and meta-analyses (2017)

SooLiang Ooi, Melissa Giovino, Sok Cheon Pak


•First-line Psychotherapies for Military-Related PTSD (2020) /Clinical update (2020)

Maria M. Steenkamp, PhD1; Brett T. Litz, PhD2,3; Charles R. Marmar, MD4

Could you point to the content

Could anyone point to the section of the review that specifically indicates this edit:

"There is no good evidence TM is of any use for reducing anxiety."

The review, author-conclusions states,"The small number of studies included in this review do not permit any conclusions to be drawn on the effectiveness of meditation therapy for anxiety disorders. Transcendental meditation is comparable with other kinds of relaxation therapies in reducing anxiety,...

I see two conclusions in reference to TM: One, that a small number of studies doesn't indicate conclusions for mediation therapy in general. And two, that TM compares to other kinds of relaxation therapies.

We could say," A 2006 review indicates no conclusions could be drawn on meditation as therapy, including TM, because of too few studies investigated.

The date is pertinent as is the reason the review cannot draw conclusions.

I'd note per MEDRS,WP:MEDDATE that this source, at 2006, is outdated. There are more recent, pertinent, MEDRS compliant sources than a source that is 18 years old, with two studies and only one that pertains to the topic of this article, and that states, no conclusions could be drawn.

There is no evidence, per this review, that the small number of studies reviewed can lead to evidence that meditation therapy is effective in anxiety reduction. The review does not say is of no use. That is an extrapolation, and not accurate per the review we are looking at.

Littleolive oil (talk) 16:51, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

If the source says evidence does "not permit any conclusions to be drawn" that equates to "no good evidence" (in part because the default assumption is 'no effect'). Per WP:MEDSAY it's best not to include the gubbins about what the document type is. Cochrane reviews are exempt from WP:MEDDATE because the assumption is they update when the underlying evidence changes; this is set out in WP:MEDRS. Bon courage (talk) 16:58, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
I agree and have updated the article to reflect this. Littleolive oil (talk) 17:14, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
Add: per your comment on Cochrane: There is much research now on meditation techniques that indicate reduction of anxiety. This review is poor in terms of the reviews and also in date. Maybe take look at the state of the research in meditation techniques. A lot has changed in almost 20 years. The same is true of anything we might call Fringe. What was fringe 20 years ago may now be mainstream. That's the nature of science and research. Salk research on the polio vaccines would by our standards have been considered Fringe at one time, but now with research is no longer so. Littleolive oil (talk) 17:23, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
Really? This is a page specifically about Transcendental Meditation. From a quick look the research scene is moribund (mindfulness is the new kid on the block). Which are the WP:BESTSOURCES on TM and anxiety? Bon courage (talk) 17:30, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
I suggest you look deeper. And if you're in a looking mood you might want to check the Mindfulness article, a conglomerate of mindfulness related content rather than anything clearly delineated. The Effects of Meditation article is wracked with non- MEDRS sources and is clearly a mindfulness-dominated, POV article. I don't edit Misplaced Pages much anymore. Too Busy. And I don't try try to add new content or update this article in terms of research. There is a point where the fight isn't worth it. There is research being done on many meditation techniques from what I've seen. New kid might be a red flag, though; how much is MEDRS compliant? I am busy again for quite a while but I'll see about adding content on the state of the research on this article topic. It's not a competition. Meditation has become mainstream and there has to be room to accurately describe any forms that have verifiable, reliable sources. Littleolive oil (talk) 17:54, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
Also: Health effects section is organized to indicate the history of the research given this meditation has a relatively long history in research and the article follows that history. So the date of the Cochran review should be added back in. Right now there’s a bit of a gaping hole where research date was removed. Littleolive oil (talk) 19:28, 16 December 2023 (UTC)


Reversion of date with out summary comment

Bon Courage. You've reverted with out any reason given. As I said here, the section is organized by date. You've removed the date. We do have another option. The review we are discussing has only one study on TM. Th authors conclude that with only that one study and whatever issues that study had no conclusions could be drawn. So per our own MEDRS guidelines this isn't a legitimate review since we are looking for replicated results. The whole thing should probably be removed. Further and again the review itself is outdated.

I have to wonder why you're insistent in removing the date and ignoring context. I refuse to get into some weird edit warring situation so if you honestly and with out bias feel it is appropriate to exclude the date when information has been ordered historically and since you also seem to have no reason to make that deletion I will leave the edit. I can't argue with what is illogical. If you do have a bias do you really think our readers are stupid enough to wonder about the bald statement now in the article which makes no logical sense. Littleolive oil (talk) 21:24, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

See above where I put "Cochrane reviews are exempt from WP:MEDDATE because the assumption is they update when the underlying evidence changes". So the assumption is what Cochrane says is current. I'd suggest you actually engage with points made. The rest of that section needs to be made compliant with WP:MEDSAY too. If you think that Cochrane rewiews are "not legitimate" that is not something Misplaced Pages can fix. Bon courage (talk) 21:47, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
Ah well. You've sidestepped the points I made-red herring. You reverted the date of the review with out reason- no real edit summary given. And noting the information is not describing the source; this is supposedly a reliable source and this is just content. You've twisted WP:MEDSAY. Why are you afraid of adding a date? You've decided the research is moribund. I'm sure it is in this article because editors trot along and remove whatever doesn't suit their positions as you have done. You've worded the review inaccurately. I have no problem with adding whatever the review says but I do have problems with what appears to be illogical at best and biased at worst reading of the review. I'm no stranger to this kind of argument, and I know the only way too deal with it is to walk away. Should I add more research of which there is quite a bit, as the research on all forms of meditation increases yearly when this is what one deals with? You win! I don't deal with bullying or arguments that sidestep the issues. There's no point. Littleolive oil (talk) 22:00, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
Olive, it is really impossible to respond meaningfully to that. Bon courage (talk) 06:56, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: Cochrane is not the only reliable;e source. Littleolive oil (talk) 00:00, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

What, for TM & anxiety specifically? It's not obvious that's the case. Bon courage (talk) 06:57, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
I'm not sire what point you're making?
You're probably right. I really don't want to be here haggling over this article again. So my responses may not be complete. As perspective. I am a strict, maybe rigid, supporter of MEDRS. So, the subtle implication that I am supporting bias is frustrating. This article is not moribund, it's stable after years of contention. Let's see if I can make my position clear, as apparently I haven't. My perceptions.

The source in question is poor per MEDRS. It includes 2 studies, only one is about TM. MEDRS is meant to protect the reader from "Fringe" information- information that may with time become mainstream, but not now. As long as we have physicians who use Misplaced Pages for diagnosis( I'd head for the door if my physician did this), we have a responsibility to include only replicated studies/information. This review, such as it is, is not showing replicated information.

The source very clearly says,"The small number of studies included in this review do not permit any conclusions to be drawn on the effectiveness of meditation therapy for anxiety disorders. Transcendental meditation is comparable with other kinds of relaxation therapies in reducing anxiety,..." the source does not make an overarching statement about anxiety and TM. This article is, however, making an over arching statement; we are misrepresenting the source in part by deliberately excluding context: The small number of studies does not allow any conclusions to be drawn. TM is comparable....

The section has been organized by date. WP:MEDSAY does not forbid basic information about the source being used. Using WP:MEDSAY as some kind of edit summary seems disingenuous to me. There is implied consensus in a years long stable article that you ignored in favor of your own edit leaving a bald, dateless inaccurate statement.

The MEDRS position would be to remove the source. There is no replication, and there was not enough information to draw any conclusions.

Finally, as an experienced editor you know that the only way I can deal further with this issue is to edit war and to enter the morass that follows that kind of contention. I attempted to compromise by agreeing with an edit you made, whether I bought the argument or not, but you went further with out agreement. I either walk away or am forced into an edit war. Is there frustration at being forced into such a position. Yes. But I don't care enough to engage in that kind of mess.

The article as it stands now is weaker than it was, if MEDRS is a legitimate standard. I think it is. Littleolive oil (talk) 17:48, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Finally, as an experienced editor you know that the only way I can deal further with this issue is to edit war ← not at all, you could raise a query at WT:MED. But if you are going to argue that a Cochrane review is poor or fringe you'd better have a strong case! It is hallmark of good systematic reviews that they exclude poor sources; poor reviews tend to include all sorts of crap. But surely the main point is that this is the ONLY review of TM/Anxiety in existence. Unless you know of others? Bon courage (talk) 18:28, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
You've sidestepped once again: Why did you remove a date? And, the content you support does not faithfully reflect the source.
No one suggested Cochrane in and of itself is not reliable. No source is valuable to us unless it specifically supports specific content and complies with our standards.
No one suggested the review is fringe.
I don't have to go to a notice board to know the content you are supporting does not reflect the source. Further NB are often a time sink, and the positions raised there are not binding on any article. Often they are a waste of time, of which I have little, in part because they are not binding
For starters, please look at the rest of the reviews in the section for TM and anxiety.
I've done what I can do here. Best wishes. Littleolive oil (talk) 16:39, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
A date is only needed if the information is time-bound in some way. Has the view on TM/Anxiety changed? Per WP:MEDSAY we should just deliver the knowledge payload without needless detail. The conclusion of the review says "The small number of studies included in this review do not permit any conclusions to be drawn on the effectiveness of meditation therapy for anxiety disorders" which we summarize well (i.e. no good evidence to support). As to other sources: good tip. That Goyal source is comparatively recent (2014), but was badly mis-summarized. Bon courage (talk) 16:57, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Maharishi effect

"The square root of 1%" is 10%. I'm not sure what 0.00016% is in relation to 1%, but it's not the square root. 2600:1700:37E0:6890:7CCA:BDEB:A173:B2C8 (talk) 18:36, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

What they mean is: the square root of (one per cent (1%) of the population), not (the square root of one per cent (1%)) of the population. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:02, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
I've rewritten that part of the article, omitting the 0.00016%. It appears that the global population was ~4 billion in 1974, 1% of that is 40 million, and √(40 million) is 6324.5553 (0.000158% of 4 billion) 🔥HOTm̵̟͆e̷̜̓s̵̼̊s̸̜̃🔥 (talk・edits) 16:04, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Yogic Flying

The Journal of Conflict Resolution, 1988, published "International Peace Project in the Middle East: The Effects of the Maharishi Technology of the Unified Field." This study indicates a small group A of Transcendental Meditation peace experts practicing Yogic Flying (the √1% of the regional population), and thereby creating more EEG coherent brains, was time-lag correlated to B, reduced warfare in Lebanon. Cross-lagged panel correlation compares the synchronous correlation (the correlation between two variables at the same time) with the lagged correlations (the correlation of a variable with another variable at earlier and later times). The hypothesis that A is causing B is supported if variations in A are followed in time by correlated changes in B, whereas changes in B are not followed in time by correlated changes in A. "Cross-correlations and transfer functions indicated that the group had a leading relationship to change on the quality-of-life indicators, supporting a causal interpretation." Will M Davis (talk) 07:30, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Amazing bollocks eh! But why raise it? Bon courage (talk) 07:35, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Dear Editor,
Here is further evidence why you post my edit from the Journal of Conflict Resolution.
“A causal law of nature means no more and no less than that A is always followed by B (Kemeny, 1959),” said Dr. John G. Kemeny, former colleague of Einstein, and former President of Dartmouth College. This causal law satisfies the requirement made by non-TM peer review editors that TM causes the creation of a EEG coherent brain, increased IQ and intelligence scores, increased moral and ethical reasoning scores, more loving behavior, reduced school suspensions and expulsions, fewer hospitalizations in all disease categories, a longer average life span of about 15 years, relief from suicidal PTSD by veterans, and when only 1% of society practices TM, significantly decreased accident rates, decreased crime rates, and improved economic indicators like increased gross domestic product, and rising international stock markets.
Non-TM peer review editors confirm: The chance of error in the TM crime reduction studies, is only p < .0000000000000000001. In normal studies p < .01 means there is an excellent chance — 99 per cent — that the difference in outcomes would NOT be observed if the intervention had no benefit whatsoever. So p < .000000000000000001 means it is virtually certain, statistically, that the TM intervention caused the war deaths to fall 76%.
Non-TM peer review editors confirm: In TM crime reduction studies, other possible causes (weekends, holidays, weather, police procedures, government initiatives, etc.) are statistically controlled for.
Non-TM peer review editors confirm: TM peace intervention studies are announced (predicted) ahead of time (before the TM intervention).
To sum up, non-TM peer review editors confirm: Using the compound probability model , cross-lagged panel correlation (CLPC), Box-Jenkins ARIMA impact assessment, transfer function analyses, the Akaike Information Criterion (AIC), Liu’s linear transfer function (LTF), Ljung-Box Q statistic (showing joint probabilities of autocorrelations in residuals were insignificant, indicating statistical adequacies), robustness checks with “pseudovariables” (to rule out spurious effects), etc., 19 published studies indicate causality and rule out reverse causation for the TM crime reduction effect.https://istpp.org/news/2017_03-field-effects-of-consciousness-peer-reviewed-studies.html Will M Davis (talk) 09:10, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
That crackpot institution is not a reliable source. --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:15, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
This Journal Of Conflict Resolution study on Yogic Flying time-lagged correlated to reduction of warfare includes authors Charles N. Alexander affiliated with Department of Psychology and Social Relations, Harvard University; and Wallace E. Larimore affiliated with Computational Engineering, Inc., Woburn, Massachusetts.
Please see for yourself at: Will M Davis (talk) 09:49, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
While Charles N. Alexander did receive his PhD from Harvard, at the time of the publication of this paper he was a faculty member of the "Department of Psychology" at Maharishi University of Management, then known as Maharishi International University. The claimed contemporaneous affiliation to Harvard is evidently a disingenuous one, made to give a (false) imprimatur of legitimacy to an otherwise obviously ridiculous research study, as the subsequent critique points out. Cambial — foliar❧ 10:17, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Thanks, but back to the specific statistics approved by the non-TM peer review editors of the Journal of Conflict Resolution. We will see that cross correlation and transfer functions are used to determine and define causal notation, commonly used in the social sciences, as in A, Yogic Flying, causing B, reduction of warfare.
Cross-correlation is the measurement of how well two independent signals resemble each other, a concept also known as cross-similarity. "cross-correlation is a measure of similarity of two series as a function of the displacement of one relative to the other... It is commonly used for searching a long signal for a shorter, known feature. It has applications in pattern recognition." Here the pattern is when the number of Yogic Flyers reaches a threshold, A, the number of war deaths B, decline. And when the number of Yogic Flyers, A, falls below the threshold, the war deaths, B, increase.
A transfer function is a convenient way to represent a linear, time-invariant system in terms of its input-output relationship. "a transfer function of a system, sub-system, or component is a mathematical function that models the system's output for each possible input. "a transfer function (also known as system function or network function) of a system, sub-system, or component is a mathematical function that models the system's output for each possible input. " Here the transfer function models the system's output (war deaths) for each possible input (number of Yogic Flyers).
"Causal notation is notation used to express cause and effect.
"In nature and human societies, many phenomena have causal relationships where one phenomenon A (a cause) impacts another phenomenon B (an effect). Establishing causal relationships is the aim of many scientific studies across fields ranging from biology and physics to social sciences and economics." Here as Harvard trained quantum physicist John Hagelin explains, when group EEG coherence reaches a threshold (from the technology of Yogic Flying), the effect is war deaths reduce.
Here is a list of the 19 peer review studies using statistics like cross-correlation and transfer functions, approved by the non-TM peer review editors, as causal notation. Please check out these mainstream journals:
Assimakis P., & Dillbeck, M. C. (1995). Time series analysis of improved quality of life in Canada:  Social change, collective consciousness, and the TM-Sidhi program. Psychological Reports 76(3), 1171–1193.
Cavanaugh, K. L., & Dillbeck, M. C. (2017a). The contribution of proposed field effects of consciousness to the prevention of U.S. accidental fatalities: Theory and empirical tests. Journal of Consciousness Studies, 24(1–2), 53–86.
Cavanaugh, K. L, & Dillbeck, M. C. (2017b). Field effects of consciousness and reduction in U.S. urban murder rates: Evaluation of a prospective quasi-experiment. Journal of Health and Environmental Research, 3(3–1), 32–43.
Davies, J. L., & Alexander, C. N. (2005).  Alleviating political violence through reducing collective tension: Impact assessment analysis of the Lebanon war. Journal of Social Behavior and Personality, 17(1), 285–338.
Dillbeck, M. C. (1990). Test of a field theory of consciousness and social change: Time series analysis of participation in the TM-Sidhi program and reduction of violent death in the U.S. Social Indicators Research 22(4), 399–418.  
Dillbeck, M. C., Banus, C. B., Polanzi, C., & Landrith III, G. S. (1988). Test of a field model of consciousness and social change: The Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi program and decreased urban crime. The Journal of Mind and Behavior 9(4), 457–486.
Dillbeck, M. C., & Cavanaugh K. L. (2016). Societal violence and collective consciousness: Reduction of U.S. homicide and urban violent crime rates. SAGE Open, 6(2), 1–16.
Dillbeck, M. C., & Cavanaugh K. L. (2017). Group practice of the Transcendental Meditation® and TM-Sidhi® program and reductions in infant mortality and drug-related death: A quasi-experimental analysis. SAGE Open, 7(1), 1–16.
Dillbeck, M. C., Cavanaugh, K. L., Glenn, T., Orme-Johnson, D. W., & Mittlefehldt, V. (1987).  Consciousness as a field: The Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi program and changes in social indicators. The Journal of Mind and Behavior 8(1), 67–104.
Dillbeck, M. C., Landrith III, G. S., & Orme-Johnson, D. W. (1981). The Transcendental Meditation program and crime rate change in a sample of forty-eight cities. Journal of Crime and Justice 4, 25–45.
Fergusson L. C. (2016). Vedic science-based education, poverty removal and social wellbeing: A case history of Cambodia from 1980-2015. Journal of Indian Education, 31(4), 16-45.
Hagelin, J. S., Rainforth, M.V., Orme-Johnson, D. W., Cavanaugh, K. L., Alexander, C. N., Shatkin, S. F., … Ross, E. (1999). Effects of group practice of the Transcendental Meditation program on preventing violent crime in Washington, DC: Results of the National Demonstration Project, June–July 1993. Social Indicators Research, 47(2), 153–201.
Hatchard, G., & Cavanaugh, K. L. (2017). The effect of coherent collective consciousness on national quality of life and economic performance indicators—An analysis of the IMD index of national competitive advantage. Journal of Health and Environmental Research, 3(3–1), 16–31.
Hatchard, G. D., Deans, A. J., Cavanaugh, K. L., & Orme-Johnson, D. W. (1996). The Maharishi Effect: A model for social improvement. Time series analysis of a phase transition to reduced crime in Merseyside metropolitan area. Psychology, Crime & Law, 2(3), 165–174.  
Orme-Johnson, D. W., Dillbeck, M. C., Alexander, C. N., Chandler, H. M., & Cranson, R. W. (2003). Effects of large assemblies of participants in the Transcendental Meditation® and TM-Sidhi® program on reducing international conflict and terrorism. Journal of Offender Rehabilitation, 36(1–4), 283–302.
Orme-Johnson, D. W., Alexander, C. N., & Davies, J. L. (1990). The effects of the Maharishi Technology of the Unified Field: Reply to a methodological critique. Journal of Conflict Resolution, 34(4), 756–768.
Orme-Johnson, D. W., Alexander, C. N., Davies, J. L., Chandler, H. M., & Larimore, W. E. (1988). International peace project in the Middle East: The effect of the Maharishi Technology of the Unified Field. Journal of Conflict Resolution 32(4), 776–812.
Orme-Johnson, D. W., Dillbeck, M. C., Alexander, C. N. (2003). Effects of large assemblies of participants in the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi program on reducing international conflict and terrorism. Journal of Offender Rehabilitation, 36(1–4), 283–302.
Orme-Johnson, D. W., & Oates, R. M. (2009). A field-theoretic view of consciousness: Reply to critics. Journal of Scientific Exploration, 22(3), 139–166. Will M Davis (talk) 11:01, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

You made a claim about the authorship of the paper for which you advocate inclusion, to counter Hob Gadling's pointing out, not inaccurately, that a paper emerging from such a crackpot institution is not a reliable source. When your claim is shown to be false, you change the subject. You've changed the subject to one which you apparently know even less about than accurately examining the authorship of a joke research study. The analysis "commonly used in the social sciences" to determine causation from multiple variables is regression analysis, not cross-correlation. Cambial — foliar❧ 11:15, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

INTERSUBJECT EEG COHERENCE: IS CONSCIOUSNESS A FIELD?
As Harvard trained quantum physicist John Hagelin explains inter subject EEG coherence at a distance explains the time-lagged correlation of warfare reduction in Lebanon, from a small group of TM experts. The rise of EEG coherence in the small group, radiates out and causes other people's (warfare combatants) EEG coherence to improve. Then the warring groups become more coherent and begin to cease aggression. Hagelin says this represents a theoretic field effect propagated by the unified field of physics. This Maharishi Effect has been replicated in numerous mainstream peer review journal studies in which the editors are not practicing TM. Never the less, these brilliant editors have endorsed the experimental designs and statistical notations for causality.
Abstract: EEG coherence was measured between pairs of three different subjects during a one-hour period practice of the Transcendental Meditation (TM) program. Coherence between subjects was evaluated for two sequential fifteen minute periods. On six experimental days, these periods preceded and then coincided with a fifteen minute period during which 2500 students participated in the TM-Sidhi program at a course over lo00 miles away. After the course had ended coherence was evaluated on six control days.
It was found that intersubject coherence was generally low, between 0.35 and 0.4, with coherence in the alpha (8-12 Hz) and beta (16-20 Hz) frequencies significantly higher than at other frequencies. On the experimental days, intersubject EEG coherence increased during the experimental period relative to the fifteen minute baseline period immediately preceding the experimental period. Coherence increased significantly from baseline to experimental periods on experimental days compared with control days (p = 0.02). This effect was particularly evident in the alpha and beta frequencies. The results reinforce previous sociological studies showing decreased social disorder in the vicinity of TM and TM-Sidhi participants and are discussed in terms of a field theoretic view of consciousness. Will M Davis (talk) 11:38, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Maharishi International University is a 501(c)3 nonprofit university accredited by the Higher Learning Commission, not a crackpot institution. The President of MIU is Dartmouth and Harvard trained quantum physicist John Hagelin. How many presidents of other universities can come close to his scientific achievements, I ask you, Sir? "In 1992, Hagelin received a Kilby International Award from the North Dallas Chamber of Commerce "for his promising work in particle physics in the development of supersymmetric grand unified field theory"...During his time at CERN, SLAC and MUM, Hagelin worked on supersymmetric extensions of the standard model and grand unification theories. His work on the flipped SU(5) heterotic superstring theory is considered one of the more successful unified field theories, or "theories of everything", and was highlighted in 1991 in a cover story in Discover magazine.
From 1979 to 1996, Hagelin published over 70 papers about particle physics, electroweak unification, grand unification, supersymmetry and cosmology, most of them in academic scientific journals. He co-authored a 1983 paper in Physics Letters B, "Weak symmetry breaking by radiative corrections in broken supergravity", that became one of the 103 most-cited articles in the physical sciences in 1983 and 1984. In a 2012 interview in Science Watch, co-author Keith Olive said that his work for the 1984 study was one of the areas that had given him the greatest sense of accomplishment. A 1984 paper by Hagelin and John Ellis in Nuclear Physics B, "Supersymmetric relics from the big bang", had been cited over 500 times by 2007."
"The most common form of regression analysis is linear regression, in which one finds the line (or a more complex linear combination) that most closely fits the data according to a specific mathematical criterion."
Following is a link to a diagram from the Journal of Conflict Resolution study that illustrates the proposed causal notation between A, the number of TM-Sidhi participants, and B, the improved quality of life index in Israel and reduction of conflict in Lebanon. You can see the 2 lines represent the data that illustrate the time lag that B always follows A, that former President of Dartmouth, John Kemeny, defined as the requirement for causality.
https://uk.tm.org/documents/12132/34409314/image_maharishi_effect_5.png/ Will M Davis (talk) 12:29, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
"The most common form of regression analysis is linear regression, in which one finds the line (or a more complex linear combination) that most closely fits the data according to a specific mathematical criterion."
Here is a link illustrating 2 lines for their mathematical relation of TM-Sidhi Intervention Period and a time-lag to reduction of crime in DC. Again this is a chart illustrating causal notation defined by statistics.
4,000 participants in the TM-Sidhi programme gathered in Washington DC for a six-week demonstration project in 1993. Predictions were lodged in advance with a 27-member independent review panel and advertised in the Washington Post.(8) The results provide evidence of a dosage effect: when numbers participating increased, the effects were greater. Findings showed a 23.3% reduction in total violent crime during the project period, as well as increased approval ratings for President Clinton. In addition, accidents, emergency psychiatric calls, hospital trauma cases and complaints against police all decreased, while a quality of life index improved.(9,10)
https://uk.tm.org/documents/12132/34409314/image_maharishi_effect_3.png/ Will M Davis (talk) 12:51, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Following is a link to a diagram that illustrates the proposed causal relationship between US per capita consumption of margarine and the divorce rate in Maine. And here's one showing the relationship between the number of google searches for "best schools" and the number of security guards in Pennsylvania. You can, one hopes, see the problem. Cambial — foliar❧ 12:53, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Thank you for your very intelligent insight with these 2 diagrams showing correlations that are not causal. It is clear you perceive the correlation between Yogic Flying and war reduction as non-causal. To you and your colleague Misplaced Pages editors, Yogic Flying causing war reduction is as ridiculous as the consumption of margarine causing the Maine divorce rate or visa versa.
However, as I have tried to explain, the Maharishi Effect studies always involve statistical techniques, that show a time lag between line A and line B (as in the Lebanon study), indicating causality. One precedes the other. A always precedes B. This is the requirement for causality. "In nature and human societies, many phenomena have causal relationships where one phenomenon A (a cause) impacts another phenomenon B (an effect)." Cross correlations combined with transfer functions can prove your 2 diagrams are correlated but not related causally. Whereas in the TM-Lebanon study, cross correlations combined with transfer functions prove the 2 lines are correlated but one line (A) slightly leads the other line (B) showing TM experts cause warfare reduction. A leads B. This is not true in the correlation of consumption of margarine and the Maine divorce rate. Margarine consumption, A, does not lead the Maine divorce rate, B, or visa versa. For your diagrams, A does NOT lead B.
Furthermore the Maharishi Effect studies have multiple replications in many parts of the world, all indicating causality by statistical techniques.
Therefore Hagelin is proposing the Maharishi Effect is a law of nature propagated by the unified field. He is proposing the coherent brain is the basis of world peace. He is saying the Maharishi Effect is evidence of the unified field, which is usually researched only in particle accelerators and atomic labs. This is one reason the TM scientists are using physics functions like cross-correlations and transfer functions. It is a coherent proposal because as I cited above inter subject EEG coherence occurs across long distances. The source of the higher brain EEG synchrony is coming from the Yogic Flying group, as measured. Will M Davis (talk) 13:46, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
"The most common form of regression analysis is linear regression, in which one finds the line (or a more complex linear combination) that most closely fits the data according to a specific mathematical criterion."
Here is link showing rising lines for improvement of Norway's and Sweden's economies when the Maharishi Effect Threshold was achieved.
Increased national economic strength and competitiveness in New Zealand and Norway. Scores on the Institute for Management Development (IMD) Index of National Competitive Advantage increased significantly for New Zealand and Norway when the number of people practising Transcendental Meditation exceeded 1% of the national population, in comparison to 44 other developed nations over a 7-year period. Subsidiary analysis and Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) data confirmed that the observed economic improvements were unusually broad-based, sustained, and balanced in nature, with five years of high growth, low unemployment, and low inflation. For New Zealand, a cost-benefit analysis of coherence creation through Transcendental Meditation conservatively estimated the gain to the nation at $320 for every $1 invested in implementing the programme.(24
https://uk.tm.org/documents/12132/34409314/image_maharishi_effect_7.png/ Will M Davis (talk) 12:58, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages is not a platform for the propagation of credulous horseshit claiming that arse-bouncing leads to world peace. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:10, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
cross correlations combined with transfer functions prove the 2 lines are correlated but one line (A) slightly leads the other line (B) showing TM experts cause warfare reduction. A leads B One leading another does not prove anything at all. The text you posted above does prove that you do not understand statistical regression. Cambial — foliar❧ 15:31, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
You are right the above 2 posts with 2 lines for Norway (green) and New Zealand (blue), and 2 lines for actual DC crime (red) and the time series predicted crime without creating coherence group (green) DO NOT represent linear regression because they are not lines for independent and dependent variables. Thanks for pointing it out. My mistake sorry. I admit I am not an expert in linear regression.
However, the following is correct. What I meant by A leads B in the J of Conflict Resolution is the independent variable always precedes or leads the dependent variable. In a causal correlation B always follows A. The hypothesis that A is causing B is supported if variations in A are followed in time by correlated changes in B, whereas changes in B are not followed in time by correlated changes in A. "Cross-correlations and transfer functions indicated that the group had a leading relationship to change on the quality-of-life indicators, supporting a causal interpretation."
Therefore my original edit is correct and should be posted by you under Yogic Flying please:
The Journal of Conflict Resolution, 1988, published "International Peace Project in the Middle East: The Effects of the Maharishi Technology of the Unified Field." This study indicates a small group A of Transcendental Meditation peace experts practicing Yogic Flying (the √1% of the regional population), and thereby creating more EEG coherent brains, was time-lag correlated to B, reduced warfare in Lebanon. Cross-lagged panel correlation compares the synchronous correlation (the correlation between two variables at the same time) with the lagged correlations (the correlation of a variable with another variable at earlier and later times). The hypothesis that A is causing B is supported if variations in A are followed in time by correlated changes in B, whereas changes in B are not followed in time by correlated changes in A. "Cross-correlations and transfer functions indicated that the group had a leading relationship to change on the quality-of-life indicators, supporting a causal interpretation."
I wear a Christ cross and Mother Mary medallion but find no conflict in practicing TM. I would not believe the Maharishi Effect either if it were not for about 40 studies showing causality by cross-correlations, transfer functions, etc. My friend Father Thomas Keating, Abbot of St. Joseph’s Abbey, Spencer, MA, who practiced Transcendental Meditation (TM), and lived to be 95, believed in what Lord Christ said, “The Kingdom of Heaven is within you,” and, “Seek ye first the Kingdom of Heaven and all else shall be added unto thee.” Perhaps he could better explain the Maharishi Effect than I? Will M Davis (talk) 20:08, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages isn't the slightest bit interested in what religious symbols you wear, or what your personal religious beliefs are. You aren't going to be permitted to add this credulous horseshit to the article for the same reasons that all the previous promoters of said horseshit haven't been. Feel free to read the archives (linked at the top of this page) for past attempts, and for why they have not been accepted. Or alternatively, read Misplaced Pages:Lunatic charlatans - this is an essay, rather than policy, but it summarises nicely the opinions of Misplaced Pages contributors at large, and forms the background to the policies which prevent the article being used to promote arse-bouncing for world peace. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:48, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

References

  1. Schmidt-Wilk, Jane (2000). "A Biographical Sketch of Charles 'Skip' Alexander (1949–1998)". Journal of Adult Development. 7 (4): 289–290. doi:10.1023/A:1009584000035.
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