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Revision as of 11:57, 8 February 2015 view sourceNorthBySouthBaranof (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers33,477 edits →Gamergate redux: Yeah, right.← Previous edit Latest revision as of 12:29, 9 January 2025 view source FloridaArmy (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users178,502 edits →Albert Percy Godber 
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| author = Matthew Gault
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| title = Misplaced Pages Editors Very Mad About Jimmy Wales' NFT of a Misplaced Pages Edit
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| date = 8 December 2021
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| quote = The trouble began when Wales posted an announcement about the auction on his user talk page—a kind of message board where users communicate directly with each other.
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==Misplaced Pages for Idiots?== == Happy New Year to Misplaced Pages's Founder! ==
I was wondering if any thought has been given to creating a guide to Misplaced Pages, perhaps as part of the "Idiots" (or "dummies" guide) series? We don't currently have anything like that, just a series of links in the welcome template and other things of that kind. A comprehensive guide for beginners would really help a lot I think, covering not just the basics (and why we have our rules) but also the more technical stuff, such as formatting references and copyright. Perhaps it's just me, but I sometimes find that even after a couple of years this can be a hard site to navigate. A published guide, perhaps a free e-book, with a good index, would help a lot I think and maybe aid in editor retention. Not volunteering for the job, by the way, as I am too much of a dummy myself, but I think this might be a good job for the Foundation to commission. ] (]) 17:06, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
*Perhaps ] is what you had in mind? ] ] 17:28, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
*? <small>(probably a redirect to en.wiki...)</small> --] (]) 17:33, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
::::<small>This comment wins the internet. I mean.. uh.... stop that! ] (]) 08:42, 7 February 2015 (UTC) </s>
::{{ping|Floquenbeam}} It took me to a missing page.] - '']'' 17:36, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
::Oh that missing manual seems about right, thematically. Obviously it's far out of date. Also it needs a professionally written index. When I search "references," for instance, I get 29 hits. That's just too much. ] (]) 17:35, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
* might be the closest thing to what Coretheapple seems to be talking about. ] ] 18:21, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
*There is ]. ] (]) 18:31, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
::As long as it kept to the technical aspect of ''how'' to edit, and stayed '''far, far away''' from things talking about the 5P, exact wording of current policies and guidelines (even long standing rarely significantly changed ones like ], ], ]), stay away from abstract concepts such as "courtesy" and "respect". All of those things of course are important for newbies and the curious; '''but''' codifying into a manual some of those concepts and !rules would further the spread of dogma that "As Misplaced Pages is the moment I came in, is the way it shall be forever! Because someone wiser than me brought these rules down from upon high". We have enough of that crap going on now without an actual published book declaring for the world to see that these things are this way and that way they shall always be. We'll have some one classifying the 5P as the Misplaced Pages Constitution instead of an essay based on its inclusion on the front page of ''Misplaced Pages for Idiots'' (quite an apropos location based on the title for the 5P really, IMHO). Look at organized religion for what happens when you write a book.] (]) 18:48, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
:::Sure, at least technical. Look, maybe it's just me, but I had a hell of a time finding ]. It would be nice to have a comprehensive guidebook to point to when you encounter a beginner stumbling along. And why not include policies? It's hard at first to grasp why, for instance, we prohibit original research. It would be nice of a "dummies" guide to explain to beginners why that isn't allowed. The current policy pages don't get into the "why" aspect very much. They're not always self-evident. ] (]) 20:00, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
::::I recommend that experienced, helpful editors visit the ] from time to time. We answer large numbers of "newbie" questions there. The experienced hosts are good at pointing new editors In the right direction. ] ] 22:30, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
:::::I have a sincere follow-up question for ], hope they don't mind- If we write a book, does it not give newbies the idea that if they see some one changing a policy, or if policy conflicts with said book, that the newbie would become confused at best, and possibly hostile to any changes in the worst case. We'd have endless debates, !votes, and downright nasty arguments over whether a policy can be changed from what it is said in the book. Also- this ties our hands on being progressive, a work in progress, and willing to always change with new consensus since debates on content will be full of "the Holy Book of Misplaced Pages said this! You can't override with a local consensus!" As ] pointed out there are good experienced hosts at the teahouse and other noticeboards who help reach consensus, that does not always stick to the letter of established policy. Even our own established policy pages are always going to lag what we actually do and our current consensus. A policy and guideline is simply- "this is what worked before, so we wrote it down to guide us for next time, but next time might be slightly different so consensus, while it should keep to this established consensus in spirit, the details may differ." Sorry, this may be a bit convoluted! ] (])
::::::I think you're raising a good point, but actually one easy to deal with. Such book should say in bold type that the wording of the policies in Misplaced Pages prevail, and that this is just a general guide for the perplexed. For Misplaced Pages purposes it would have the strength of an essay. I think it's main function would be to help with all the technical details that, I have to say, still flumox me. For example, providing a good guide to all the automated editing platforms that we see out there. (Which is a roundabout way of saying that I personally would find such a manual useful.) Sure, the info is available on Misplaced Pages, but why not give newbies a manual they can use to quickly find the instructions if they want to give it a try? I'll bet the Foundation could get either a volunteer or team of volunteers to do that or perhaps just pay somebody 10K to do it. The important thing is an index, which to be done right costs about $1K. You can then revise it as often as you want. ] (]) 18:00, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
:::::::I like where this is heading and I do now hope a book is written. I just have one more issue that I hope ] can solve- If the Foundation is willing to pay $10K to a person or group to write this book, is it possible we'd have a large group of editors claim "SCANDAL!" because the Foundation is willing to pay for the book to be written but is (generally) against editors being paid to edit?] (]) 15:33, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
::::::::If anyone can't distinguish between the Foundation paying someone to write a guidebook and paying someone to edit, that's their problem. ] (]) 16:05, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
::::::::Oh two other points I was going to make: first when I said "idiot's guide" I really meant the "dummies guides," the ones with the yellow cover, though I see there is a knock-off series with the "idiots" name. Secondly, I think a bound volume would be helpful with older people and retirees, who are underrepresented on Misplaced Pages and would respond well to that kind of help. ] (]) 16:10, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
::::::You are looking for ]. ] (]) 18:04, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
MWhy do you need Misplaced Pages for idiots? Aren't there enough idiots on
Misplaced Pages already? <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 00:53, 6 February 2015 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:This is true. ] (]) 01:16, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
::Fortunately, there are also enough intelligent volunteers that we have built a pretty darned good 💕 with 4.7 million English language articles, which is improving every day. When we criticize this project's many flaws, it is always good to keep that in mind. ] ] 17:53, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

=== Help:Desk is great but some prefer to see whole overview or dashboard ===
The Help Desk question-and-answer page (]) is great for getting specific answers, but some users might prefer to read an entire overview page to see a more comprehensive view of Misplaced Pages, such as reading ]. In particular, I would suspect the "]" mindset would prefer to ] an extensive overview of all major aspects, and then re-read (or re-scan) the portions which are related to specific issues of concern to them. It is always important to consider the needs of people who prefer to read textbooks cover-to-cover, and who might be frustrated by a "]" interface of tedious dialog about the typical ] topics. Also, a ] for typical user subjects might be preferred by similar users. Currently, there is the link ], as a redirect to ]. -] (]) 19:27, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

==Gamergate redux==

Here is an interesting article from Slate.com by David Auerbach on the factually erroneous article seeded from Mark Bernstein's blog to ''The Guardian'' sensationalizing the then-ongoing Gamergate Arbcom case. ] (]) 19:16, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
:The thing is he's absolutely right. We have too much of a tendency to lean towards selective blog posts than news releases that have been fact checked and it just perpetuates bad writing. The essay on verifiability, not truth is an embarrassment for this project. If we can't have truth we shouldn't have anything at all. Misplaced Pages is a great place for articles on science or history, but much of our stuff on social issues or recent events is a mess. We worship the New York Times as reliable and then go on and cite their blog writers for their opinion, which amount to being little more credible than the Huffington Post or Breitbart (which we have banned for reasons that seem more political than practical). Will we even look twice at the Guardian after this fiasco? It will probably be as much as we second guessed the Lancet after they published Wakefield's bogus vaccine/autism paper. We should be much more strict on what we consider reliable sources and focus more on getting things done right, instead of fast. It's not like we're missing out on ad revenue if we don't add the latest news story the instant it comes out. This whole project could use a healthy dose of common sense and patience. ] (]) 20:49, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
::Anyone citing opinion pieces from ''The New York Times'' or anywhere else as RS for statements of fact is violating Misplaced Pages policies (see ] and ]). I've seen this done, with opinion pieces from ''The Guardian'' and elsewhere. People say "it's RS", but they don't seem to understand that opinion pieces that appear in reliable publications are different from factual news reporting that appears in those publications. The problem is not with "verifiability", but with people manipulating "verifiability" to suit their own ends. "Verifiability" means consulting RS, and that piece in ''The Guardian'' was not RS for statements of fact, nor is this piece in ''Slate''. ] — ] 21:25, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
:::On this, I agree. There seems to be a lot of citing of opinion pieces for facts that then get asserted in the encyclopedia's own voice. Even worse, if there are opinion pieces tending to echo each other they can end up being treated as equivalent to a scientific or scholarly consensus on, say, biological evolution or the Holocaust. Op-eds and similar are nothing of the sort. As the recent media misrepresentations of the ArbCom show, we can't treat these kinds of topical, ephemeral opinion pieces on current controversies as reliable. If that means some articles have to be reduced to stubs, or even deleted, to maintain the quality of the encyclopedia, so be it. ] (]) 02:32, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
:(ec)Read the article more carefully. He doesn't actually criticise Misplaced Pages for recycling errors in the Guardian article in the Misplaced Pages article on Gamergate. I haven't paid enough attention to know for sure, but I am guessing that this is because we didn't. He teases us with "This is where it gets interesting", but then goes on to tell us that the interesting thing is that someone created a hoax article using the Guardian article, which got deleted after a couple of hours. So, not all that interesting, really. He does criticise us for having a policy of "verifiability not truth", but the thing is that we don't. So I expect we will be seeing a note appear at the foot of the Slate article by noon tomorrow explaining why it has been amended. Or not.
:The criticisms of the Guardian article may be valid, but ropey journalism isn't really very remarkable in the 21st century. Journalism about ropey journalism even less so. But, in both cases it seems someone is willing to pay for it, so who am I to criticise? ] (]) 21:27, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
: If we pay heed to everything that is said about WP, we will not have WP. - ] ] 21:33, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
:] would like it known, for the record, that he had no contact with or participation in the article in ''The Guardian''. Please be more circumspect when discussing living individuals in a public forum. ] <small>(])</small> 23:52, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
::Indeed, but it still must be said that his inflammatory and erroneous description of the situation is what caused all this nonsense in the first place.--] (]) 00:55, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
::: Hear, hear... ] (]) 02:12, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
{{hat|threadjack}}
:: BTW why is Gamaliel allowed to ] for a blocked editor? ] (]) 09:29, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
:::If any editor unable to speak for himself feels he is being factually misrepresented, it is appropriate to note that, just as I would take note of such a thing if anyone contacted me with such a matter, whether he or she was a blocked user or the subject of an article or anyone else under discussion on-wiki. It is an administrative duty to insure that ] are accurately represented on the encyclopedia, both in article and talk space. ] <small>(])</small> 15:43, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
{{hab}}
* The bottom line is that we need to put a bullet in the head of the notion that "The important thing is verifiability, not truth." The notion of so-called "Reliable Sources" is a holdover from this justly discredited epoch. There are ''more accurate'' and ''less accurate'' sources, but ultimately there is an objective reality out there that we need to describe dispassionately and fairly for our readers. This whole Bernstein-Guardian fiasco is a microcosm of the way the mainstream media works these days — forget objectivity, the name of the game is clicks and ad dollars, and don't you forget it. It is up to us as editors to filter out the bullshit (whatever its source) and to honestly get to the truth. '''Verifiability and veracity.''' ] (]) 02:12, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
::The present era is the only discredited one, and there is no objective reality that Misplaced Pages editors must construct. You have no right to criticise establishment sources. They are the foundations of society, and Misplaced Pages must adhere to societal norms if it is to survive. It is not a political project, for such a politicking as you demand is an exercise in discrediting its work. What's more, you fail to distinguish between the opinion pages and factual reporting, as is demanded by our policies. The op-ed in question was never a RS for statements of fact, as Misplaced Pages policies state (see, for example, ]). We simply cannot accept activism by self-important internet peasants. They must learn their place. Misplaced Pages is all too often a vehicle for their nonsense, prey to the frivolity of youths without material grounding. Thankfully, our policies are written to protect us against their assaults. People may choose to ignore them, but they will be shown their error in time. ] — ] 02:31, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
::: Wow. Just wow. Long live the establishment, bro... ] (]) 03:13, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
:::: Kindly enlighten us then how the hell bullshit news articles are going to be kept out then, including from what are considered RSes? Over the past 2 weeks alone I've already counted dozens of articles in mass media which have, either knowingly or unknowingly, contained plenty of factual inconsistencies. And those were not only re. GamerGate, but also regarding e.g. Greece, Ukraine, etc. As far as I could tell last time I checked their articles, there hasn't been any permanent vandalization through bad RSes *yet*, but considering the stupendous amount of RSes who publish outright lies or half-truths, there is going to be a moment that it cannot be avoided and that someone decides to make an case against Misplaced Pages because of it. ] (]) 04:23, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
::::: {{Replyto|MicBenSte}}, just curious, what source of information do you use to detect the "factual inconsistencies" in mainstream media? You must have alternative sources of information for you to judge these "bullshit news articles" to be wrong. Maybe you should go to ] and argue for the sources of information that you think are more factually true to be accepted in the encyclopedia. However, if you are judging these articles to be untrue based on your personal knowledge and experience, that is original research and has no place on Misplaced Pages. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 17:30, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
:::::: No, that's not how logic works. There are many mainstream news accounts that cannot both be true without any indication of which are accurate. There is no point in arguing ''which'' is correct. A simple review of the current events surrounding ], the NBC News anchor, Reliable Source, and long time journalist. It sometimes seems that Misplaced Pages is like the benevolent, but hapless aliens in {{Galaxy Quest]] that use TV shows as the "historical records." --] (]) 19:22, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
:: "Verifiability, not truth" is there for a reason. Every homeopathy shill in the world will claim that our article, which is fully verifiable from reliable independent sources, is nonetheless not The Truth&trade;. Misplaced Pages cannot be the judge of truth, we do not have the subject matter expertise (or rather, we allow anyone to edit and explicitly do not restrict or weight that according to subject matter expertise). This is a foundational policy. Thus, if reliable independent sources are wrong, so are we, and so it has always been.
:: That doesn't mean we must include every factually incorrect allegation in a reliable source. We are allowed to look at how other sources view it, and draw sensible editorial judgments. If a climate denier (or a holocaust denier, or a creationist or whoever) manages to get an article published in a journal, that doesn't mean we set it against the overwhelming consensus view with the kind of false balance that bedevils news outlets. But accuracy and truth are separate concepts, and Truth&trade; is another again. We should aspire to an accurate representation of the consensus of reliable independent sources. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 11:12, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
:IMO, Auerbach is pointing out the extremely torturous WP process that created and perpetuates the GamerGate article even today. That it had to be described as "harassment and misogyny" because reliable sources said so. The Guardian was one of the most engaged reliable source on the topic. There simply weren't any reliable sources supporting "ethics in journalism" as an issue so rather than use common sense, we torched a large segment of upset gamers. Gamers complained but were drowned out by charges of "harassment and misogyny." The quest to banish the basement dwellers and rescue the damsels in distress was deemed righteous and good. Many battles were fought and many topic bans preceded ArbCom. And before the arbitration case was settled and before anything was final, the reliable sources that were torching gamers, turned to ArbCom and Misplaced Pages and shouted out "harassment and misogyny." Except this time we ''knew'' the reliable sources were wrong. It was error filled and loaded with hyperbole and was basically referencing a single blog written by someone that did not speaj for WP in either process or content as the source for its charges. No request for comment. No rebuttal. It really was a lesson in Ethics in Journalism after all. A number of years ago when the core of BLP was formed we looked beyond just "reliable sources" to damage to living people and made rules about "what not to write". The next logical step is to do the same with these hot-button social topics where vanquishing opposing viewpoints becomes larger than the goals of the project. We can't regulate off-site behavior but we shouldn't be blind to it either. If all the reliable sources still create an article that is so extremely polarizing that it fuels offsite threats, arguments and real-life harassment and fear, it simply can't be neutral by definition and perhaps shouldn't be written at all. --] (]) 12:24, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
:: Gamergate has to be described as harassment and misogyny for only one reason: the reliable sources show it to be exactly that. Doxing and threats of harm are not to be taken lightly. Those who were involved will in time, I think, come to be justly ashamed of this. I think many of them were caught up in a feeding frenzy. Others were deliberately and quite unapologetically vile, and I think history will not be kind to them. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 11:12, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
::: That's the issue. Not a single, identifiable person has been named as GamerGate harassers but that's the narrative because there are identifiable victims that get coverage. On the other hand, those that are identified as GamerGate supporters by name are not harassing or doxxing anyone. Those identifiable people don't get their story told and the large number of people that are gamers are getting lumped into this anonymous group that are relentlessly attacked. "Ethics in Journalism" became a cliche as much as "Religion of Peace" is now used as a phrase to denigrate Islam. It's rather shortsighted to think that our "Reliably Sourced" article resembles reality any more than the Guardian article on Arbcom does. I'm sure the ArbCom members that banished all remaining feminists on Misplaced Pages will be "justly ashamed of this. I think many of them were caught up in a feeding frenzy. Others were deliberately and quite unapologetically vile, and I think history will not be kind to them." Except those ArbCom members don't exist except in Reliable Sources. Keep in mind that there are those that believe a billion Muslims will convert and will be ashamed if only more Truth about terrorism is published (and the overwhelming number of Reliable Sources today are not portraying Islam as a Religion of Peace but I hope you don't think this means Muslims will be ashamed and convert). --] (]) 18:49, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
:::: Let me tell you a little story. Some years ago, a person took issue with my opinion on speed enforcement. They decided that my lack of opposition to enforcement of speed limits makes me a murderer (don't go expecting trolls to be rational). For over three years I was subjected to relentless harassment: phone calls at all hours of the day and night, posting fake "bad driving" reports with the number plates of cars seen outside my house, gleeful fantasies about stringing wires across cycle tracks to decapitate my children. It took me 18 months and about a thousand pounds in court costs and other expenses to find out, through a ] where I acted as litigant in person, who this individual was. The results of the Order were sealed by the court and can be used only in legal proceedings. The Crown Prosecution Service declined to prosecute because the person lived with their parents and all went "no comment" so any court case would have died on the basis that it's not possible to absolutely prove that it was this person and not one of the others in the house.
:::: This was an obviously unstable person displaying anger that went well beyond the rational, who knew where I lived, knew my route to work, knew that I cycled along those roads every day. I went in fear for my life daily, because it doesn't matter if a driver only wants to give a cyclist a scare, the consequences can be fatal. A friend is a barrister, one of his first cases was prosecuting a driver who tried to scare someone and ended up hitting them and dragging the body under their car for over a mile. The case hinged on whether the driver became aware of the victim being stuck under the car before he died. Death was not instantaneous, they think he lived for several minutes as the back of his skull was worn away by the road.
:::: By your rationale, no harassment took place. That's also the assertion of numerous trolls who followed this person around. They assert that because there was no court case, there was no harassment. The judge granting the Order disagreed: in his view the behaviour of this person was "sinister" and deeply threatening.
:::: Who's right, the judge or the trolls who assert no harassment? Your argument says it's the trolls. If you've never been subjected to harassment then good for you, but don't make the mistake of thinking that it's just someone needing to grow a pair, because I can tell you from personal experience that it is real, serious, and affects not only the persona harassed but also those around them. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 10:57, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

::::: I appreciate the personal note. I, too, have been subject to harassment. Mine is related to Misplaced Pages edits. Though I can't say I feared for my life, the contacts to my employer were downright nasty. I am someone in favor of the BADSITES policy which apparently gives certain trolls the license to complain to my IP provider in the hopes that I may be fired or shutdown or otherwise removed from discussion. I was also a defender of early BLP policies which made me the hero to some WP trolls that didn't like their BLP while making me the enemy of those that wished to shame the trolls. My statement about GamerGate isn't that harassment didn't occur (it did). Nor is my argument that harassment isn't intimidating or threatening (it his). In your case, it appears you were able to identify the person. That is where it diverges from GamerGate. GamerGate would be like learning that a group of people wanted subcompact cars to accurately label curb weight as under 1000 kilograms, another group claiming that their 1500 kG car is subcompact and a third group that threatens 1500 kg car owners with rape and death. By your argument, the group that wants sub-compact cars to be under 1000 kG are really harassers and responsible for death threats. They were open and public about who they were and never threatened anyone. Yet because of an anonymous group of trolls that threaten a group of 1500kG car owners, anyone that wants a standard to be upheld are responsible harassment. Surely you can see that the person responsible is a single individual. Surely there are others that drive the same make and model of car that your harasser drove. But even though seeing that make and model on the road near your house might make you anxious, you wouldn't advocate the arrest and conviction of a totally uninvolved car owner simply because he drove Make X, Model Y, Color Z. The GamerGate campaign did exactly that. What do you think happens to the gamer that says ] is not a real game or expresses indifference to how certain women are portrayed in ] or says they play games to escape reality rather than reflect it? The reality is that no one really cared that all GamerGate supporters were declared misogynistic harassers even though all the harassment was anonymous and the identified supporters were not. My car was hit by a blue honda. It would certainly be great to have the police stop and arrest every blue Honda near my house, have others call in blue Honda sightings as well as blue Honda wrongdoings and have the press write stories about all the evil blue Honda drivers. It doesn't change the fact that only the blue Honda driver that hit me should be charged and his allegiance to Honda and his favorite color are not relevant to anyone but Reliqble Sources. --] (]) 11:49, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
::::::Tell that to the anonymous Gamergate trolls who have sent me death threats, attempted to contact me via work channels, attempted to dox me, out me and harass me, all very identifiably done on Gamergate-related platforms. Sorry DHeyward, but the truth is obvious to everyone at this point. (And if this is a violation of the topic ban, I don't give a fuck, because ArbCom has no power to silence me from speaking out about the very real impacts on my life of working to defend living people from vicious attacks.) ] (]) 11:57, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
Auerbach's article is beautifully written and entertaining, but he does buy into a common but clear misinterpretation of Misplaced Pages policy. Despite what he suggests, primary sources are not prohibited; only their original interpretation in non-obvious ways is prohibited. As I said at one of these threads a week or so ago, we should never hesitate to link to the original primary source when secondary sources discuss it in depth - whether that is an essay by Gurney Halleck, a decapitation video, or the final (or not final) decision in an ArbCom case. The more accessible we make the record of what originally was said and done in any situation, the fewer misinterpretations will be made by ourselves or our readers. ] (]) 14:55, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
:Practically, that doesn't work well in cases like this where the reliable sources got it wrong. Guardian, NYT, and Gawker all echoed the same thing. What do you write? It would be incorrect to cite the Arbitration page as supporting the conclusions of the secondary sources. So the next logical step is an EL. But then we are left with a primary source link back to the blog that started the incorrect stories sitting next to a link to Byzantine ArbCom voting. No one outside WP would get the "1st choice, 2nd choice but only if two other colleagues make this other thing their 1st choice, otherwise abstain." Bottom line is ArbitrationGate was deleted and rightly so. The article couldn't be written correctly so it's better not to write it at all. --] (]) 16:07, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
::I don't think this is an even slightly complicated question. The rule of thumb is ''don't put anything in Misplaced Pages that you know is false''. In the event that there's absolutely no accurate information about something available in secondary sources, don't mention it, because it can't be very important. The "Arbitration Gate" article didn't really present a dilemma. It was just a straightforward case of a mischievous article. ] (]) 19:30, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
::: The entire GamerGate discussion is about what is true/false and what is in secondary sources. It's why it went to Arbcom. --] (]) 22:02, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
::::No, it is about malicious people waging electronic rebellion. ] — ] 22:32, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
::::: {{template:uncited}} ] (]) 22:49, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
:::::: Oh come fucking on Gloucester. That's a misrepresentation and you know it. But I won't continue THAT discussion here on Jimbo's page... ] (]) 04:26, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

On the note of RSes... For a reason e.g. Breitbart is no RS yet Gawker is (while Gawker is at bad when it comes to the truth, and has an even worse 'falsehood recognition'-attitude then Breitbart). There's a whole list of current RSes who've shown over and over again the past years that their news articles are on average at best to be checked for minor errors, and at worst flat-out known lies... yet I don't have the impression anything has changed ever in that regard.
As I stated before as an example: the Second Gulf War. The majority of the 'RSes' stated massively Hussein had ready to use WMDs, the Hussein government said it did not. How did that mess at that time get managed? If it was the same at that time as the past months, the article was in one hell of a problem when it came to being an truthful enclyclopedia (there's a reason those in print take years to make and don't compound recent events which are still going on or recently ended without any post-mortem, so to say..) ] (]) 04:44, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
: I would never use Gawker as a source, though it may be valid for some trivia of interest to its core readership. Feel free to propose removal of any source in any article which has no reputation for fact-checking, at least if it is being used as a source of truth. Breitbaret is spectacularly unreliable, and at an extreme in the continuum of reliability, but that doesn't mean that anything less unreliable than Brietbart should be acceptable. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 18:06, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
{{od}}
Why the rev deletion? My comment is deleted yet is still visible O.o ] (]) 23:58, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
:they have to revdel every edit after the bad one. They make an edit to the latest version to remove the bad information, then revdel every version in between so it doesn't show up in history. The fact your edit is still visible is an indication that your edit wasn't the violation. If they had more sophisticated revision control, they could extract the specific edit but they don't. I've always wondered if this method of oversight violated the TOS since comments attributed to individuals are no longer found in the history but I think they can unwind revdel's and oversights if it's necessary to identify who made a specific edit no longer in the history. --] (]) 06:41, 8 February 2015 (UTC).

== Trolling? ==

was posted on the Misc Ref Desk page. I took it to be trolling and deleted it without comment. Another user reverted my deletion. Before I find myself in an edit war, I'd like to get your reaction to it and see if you think I'm totally off-base in deleting it. Thank you. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 07:10, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

: Someone is trolling the Reference Desk?!? I am shocked, simply shocked... ] (]) 14:47, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
::Why are you bringing this issue here rather than to the Reference Desk talk page, where a discussion is underway about questionable questions? ] (]) 19:15, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
:::Because I want to know if Jimbo himself sees it as a trolling question, since it talks about him. And to avoid yet another troll-feeding on the ref desk talk page. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 21:03, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Well, it tells a true story but in a very mixed up and error filled way. When Kira was born, she had ]. The traditional treatment at that time was basically to give the baby support and hope they pull through it. However, we were fortunate to be in San Diego where a doctor associated with a nearby university was in the midst of a controlled scientific trial of a new technique, which involved as I recall, paralyzing the baby, stopping the breathing, rerouting the blood through a machine to oxygenate it, and then use a newly invented protein-based fluid to fill the baby's lungs and "rinse out" the lungs 4 times. This was not "no scientific basis known" - it was cutting edge science. The treatment worked immediately and Kira was completely fine, and remains so to this day.
This did not give me the idea for Nupedia or Misplaced Pages, but it was a life-changing emotional experience as you can imagine, and it did provoke me to be decisive when I got back to work to rip up the Nupedia plan and install the wiki software, thereby launching Misplaced Pages.

It doesn't seem like the original poster was trolling, just asking a question based on a quite likely confused news report.--] (]) 16:47, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

:Addendum. appears to be the final publication of the study in question. I say that because it matches my memory of the treatment (although it seems like I had the number of lavage's wrong (3 not 4) and the doctor's name is there (Bernstein) and the year seems right. It's interesting to note that although this study concluded that the approach was promising, Misplaced Pages cites more recent research suggesting otherwise. All I know is that Kira is fine. :)--] (]) 16:56, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
::Thank you for the explanation. Should I restore the question and post your answer? Or should I just let it be? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 09:04, 8 February 2015 (UTC)


Happy New Year Jimbo Wales! Wish you luck in 2025! ] (]) 03:13, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
:::Restored & updated --] (]) 10:07, 8 February 2015 (UTC)


==]==
== Censorship in Kazakh Misplaced Pages ==
]
]
Happy New Year Jimbo!!! I hope all is well with you and your team.


Could you or your page watchers help me with ]? The draft has been declined and tagged up. It was then deleted years ago. I had it restored today after I came across one of his photos. I think he and his photography are fascinating for capturing aspects of New Zealand's transportation and industrial history. His work is in museum and library collections. At least one of his photographs has been used in a book. He photographed Maori sites.
Hello, Jimmy Wales. My name Eset Bibitalin. I am member of the Misplaced Pages project with 2 years experience and am writing this message using Google Translate, because I do not know English.


], standing beside a collection of Maori carvings, including two fire-screens, carved by her father Albert Percy Godber]]
The essence of my message is that the Kazakh section of Misplaced Pages censored by the project administrators. I was first blocked for profanity words in my sandbox (I wanted to use for writing articles). Then, when I wrote an article about the Kazakh profanity words (]) and add the appropriate image in the article about sex, I was blocked for 1 year.
I'm sorry I haven't been able to work the draft up enough to get it admitted to mainspace. It does make me wonder about what we do and don't include, our notability criteria, Articles for Creation (AfC) process, and collaborative ethos. Thanks so much for any help or guidance you can offer! Have a great 2025 and beyond. Thanks again. ] (]) 17:57, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
:If Godber is not ], which is what the draft reviewers say, then Wikipedians can't fix that. ] (]) 09:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
::] is he "notable" and should we have an entry on him? ] (]) 17:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
:::I dunno, but ] wrote that the draft did not show significant coverage about the subject in published, reliable, secondary sources that are independent of the subject at that point. ] (]) 19:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
]
::::And this a request to revisit his finding. We have a photographer from more than 100 years ago who documented areas of New Zealand's North Island. We have his work in a National Library collection. We have his work discussed as iconic for one of his Maori related photographs. We have his work revisited in a 2018 exhibition. We have descriptions of him related to his photographs, his career, and we have the photos themselves documenting the areas industries, sites, infrastructure from more than 100 years ago. If I was satisfied with the previous conclusions I would not be here. So I ask again, should we have an entry on this subject? Should we just attribute his photos where we use them to an unlinked name with no explanation or discussion of who he was? I think the answer is clear, and I wanted to hear Jimbo's opinion. I am aware of what was previously stated. Years have passed and I believe it's time to reevaluate and consider. I also think it's worth reflecting on our article creations processes more generally and how we apply our conception of "notability". ] (]) 23:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
*Godber's photographs include "views of the ] including large numbers of cars traveling to ], and the ]. Another group of images relate to a holiday at the ] Homestead in ] with scenes of farm life, including ], ] sheep, and farm buildings. During their stay in the South Island Godber also took photographs of Dunedin (including the ], ], ], the ], and the Hillside Railway Workshops); ] (including the Invercargill Railway Workshops); Stewart Island, ], ], ], ] and ]. Various railway stations in Canterbury and Otago, the ], and the Rosslyn Mills. Godber was a volunteer fireman with the Petone Fire Brigade with the album including views of the building, groups of firemen, fire engines and other fire fighting equipment, and a building in Petone damaged by fire. In his work with New Zealand Railways, mainly at the Petone Railway Workshops, he took interior photographs of various buildings, including the Machine Shop and finishing benches, the engine room, lathes, boilers, and fitting shops. He also took photographs of many of the steam engines that were built and worked on at the workshops. One scene shows a group of men watching a fight. Many images show his interest in logging railways, particularly in the ], ], ] area. Scenes of logging camps, various methods of transporting logs including bullock teams, logging trains, and dams created and then tripped to send logs down by river, and timber mills. Other topics covered in Godber's photographs are scenes at Maori ] and meeting houses, with some of the people identified; Maori carving and rafter designs; beekeeping, and gold mining." ] (]) 23:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
*It's hard to choose which photos to share. Historic views areas, industries, bridges, natural features, railways and bridges, crafts. to his photos on Misplaced Pages Commons. Many already illustrate our entries on various subjects. ] (]) 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)


== Just wanted to say ==
Administrators removed images from articles about sex and removed a piece of text from an article about profanity. In addition, they are deprived of all users except administrators to manage this article. The reason for this is the view of the morality of the majority of administrators.


You have created something valuable to everyone on the Internet. I'm sure you get this a lot, but thank you. <br>It may sound weird, but Misplaced Pages has helped me through some tough times. We can never thank you enough for this sometimes infighting, sometimes peaceful, sometimes divided, but always united community You are the backbone of the <s>cabal of editors</s> <b>thriving community</b> that is Misplaced Pages.
* ]
I wish I could give you a BarnMilkyWay but no one's come up with that, apparently. (]) &#124; (PS: Have a good day) 00:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
* ]
* ]
Please pay attention to it. Thank you for your time. --] (]) 16:06, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
:Thank you. I find it very interesting, and as is well known I have a particular interest in Kazakhstan and the Kazakh Misplaced Pages. It is unlikely that I can personally be of much help in resolving this conflict due to the language barrier, particularly since judgment calls about how exactly to deal with obscenity are very specific. Normally, it is a perfectly valid topic for Misplaced Pages to cover such words, and to be objective and neutral and high quality in discussion of sexual matters.
:I wonder if you could give me your view on the way Kazakh Misplaced Pages discusses clearly encyclopedic but potentially difficult topics such as ].--] (]) 17:35, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
::I understand that you can not directly influence the process, but I ask you to recommend the Russian-speaking user who has the necessary permissions. This topic should not be left just like that. Today they remove unwanted images and phrases, and tomorrow will carry out the political and religious censorship. --] (]) 19:35, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
::]. --] (]) 17:44, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
* For what it's worth, it appears an administrator removed sourced content in , calling it what Google describes as "hooliganism", then protected the page. It appears to be a simple explanatory list of the terms and etymology. Does Kazakh's Misplaced Pages have a rule against admins using protect as a supervote to select "the right version" and override other editors? Do they have a policy against censorship? ] (]) 19:09, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
::This is not vandalism and hooliganism, but simply a list of obscene expressions to the etymological meaning of the authoritative books on the ancient Turkic language. Similarly, such a list exists quietly in Russian Misplaced Pages (see ]). --] (]) 19:35, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
::And it is not contrary to the rules of the Kazakh Misplaced Pages, which can confirm the administrator ] --] (]) 19:53, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
:::In 2013, I see that Esetok started two ''really short'' articles on and . Because these are indexed from the English articles as the Kazakh language versions, I think this is all that kk.wikipedia has on the topic. You can see that the same administrator Qarakesek who blocked Esetok also stepped in to remove the image from the article, after another user tagged it for speedy deletion as pornography. Kaiyr voiced a brief comment, which I would take as opposition to this, on the talk page. I see that there is presently a sort of discussion at but between the failures of Google and the peculiarity of some of the arguments I can't actually follow it. I understand that the independence of Misplaced Pages projects needs to be respected, but I think this would indeed be an opportune time for the founder to speak up on the importance of covering topics like this seriously. So long as the existence of an article on the topic of oral sex remains in question, what they have will not be much more than a stub - and so long as it remains a stub, the article isn't going to talk about HIV and human papillomavirus and other such topics that have the potential to save actual human lives if people know more about them. ] (]) 21:12, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
* Almost all of argument of admins who deleted article and banned Esetok based in religios, kazakh tradition, defend child from this information and not based in wikipedia`s principles. My objection is not answered by other admins and bureaucrat. There is no rules in Kazakh Misplaced Pages that prohibits illustration of articles about sex.--] (]) 08:46, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
* violation of the principles given bureaucrat can I unban Esetok and undo edits of bureaucrat in articles about sex?--] (]) 16:28, 7 February 2015 (UTC)


== ==
== Question ==


What is "paid advocacy editing" and why is it bad? ] (]) 16:19, 7 February 2015 (UTC) For the interested. ] (]) 10:58, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
: 'Paid advocacy editing', if I remember the definition correctly on how Misplaced Pages uses it, describes editing by people with an payed or otherwise directly monetary linked interest in pushing a certain angle in an article. Hope this helps.
: PS: Any specific reason? Did you get accused of it/did someone get accused of it on a page? ] (]) 16:57, 7 February 2015 (UTC)


:Summary: {{tq|This document intends to show the problematic situation in Hebrew Misplaced Pages (hewiki), and provide evidence that it has been overtaken by a group of mostly religious and nationalist editors, who prevent others from achieving higher permissions while promoting their own allies.}} –] <small>(])</small> 22:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
:On the why it's bad question - Misplaced Pages is a volunteer run project to write a neutral point of view encyclopaedia. Authors and editors with an agenda to promote something can't reconcile that with the goal of writing a neutral encyclopaedia, and so are ultimately destructive. Although the same is just as true for unpaid advocates. ]<font color="FF8800">]</font> 00:10, 8 February 2015 (UTC)


== Happy new year ==
:: Paid advocates can be extremely persistent because they have a contract to fulfill. Obsessive unpaid advocates are another problem. At least when unpaid they are still volunteers like everybody else. ] <sup>]</sup> 05:07, 8 February 2015 (UTC)


Good days, Jimbo. I'd like to say that Chinese Misplaced Pages is introducing ARBCOM System currently, since Arbcom on this project, and in fact all the project is originated from the idea of yours, do you have any opinion for that? Any hints, advice or suggestions? ] 15:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
:::There is an explanation of paid advocacy editing at ].--'''''] <sup>]</sup>''''' 06:07, 8 February 2015 (UTC)


== ==
== ] ==


That doesn't sound good. From '']''. ] (]) 09:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
I am repeatedly banned and rebanned in PL wiki for things like this: http://pl.wikipedia.org/Special:Contribs/173.254.77.145


:Being discussed at ]. ] (]) 10:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
My edits are inocuous. Please tell them Jimbo Wales so you would help me. <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 18:14, 7 February 2015 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::Thanks! ] (]) 11:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
::Also discussed at ] and ]. ] (]) 19:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 12:29, 9 January 2025

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    Happy New Year to Misplaced Pages's Founder!

    Happy New Year Jimbo Wales! Wish you luck in 2025! Gooners Fan in North London (talk) 03:13, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

    Albert Percy Godber

    Albert Percy Godber at his brass finishing lathe in the Petone railway workshops. A sign before him reads: `This is my busy day'
    "Looking down over a settlement with houses set amongst trees. The arm of a lake or harbour lies beyond, with a mountainous range on the far side. Photograph taken by Albert Percy Godber. Probably taken at Queenstown, Godber having visited Lake Wakatipu and Queenstown in 1926"

    Happy New Year Jimbo!!! I hope all is well with you and your team.

    Could you or your page watchers help me with Draft:Albert Percy Godber? The draft has been declined and tagged up. It was then deleted years ago. I had it restored today after I came across one of his photos. I think he and his photography are fascinating for capturing aspects of New Zealand's transportation and industrial history. His work is in museum and library collections. At least one of his photographs has been used in a book. He photographed Maori sites.

    "Phyllis Mary Godber wearing a Maori cloak, holding a taiaha, standing beside a collection of Maori carvings, including two fire-screens, carved by her father Albert Percy Godber

    I'm sorry I haven't been able to work the draft up enough to get it admitted to mainspace. It does make me wonder about what we do and don't include, our notability criteria, Articles for Creation (AfC) process, and collaborative ethos. Thanks so much for any help or guidance you can offer! Have a great 2025 and beyond. Thanks again. FloridaArmy (talk) 17:57, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

    If Godber is not WP:NOTABLE, which is what the draft reviewers say, then Wikipedians can't fix that. Polygnotus (talk) 09:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
    user:Polygnotus is he "notable" and should we have an entry on him? FloridaArmy (talk) 17:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
    I dunno, but User:Sulfurboy wrote that the draft did not show significant coverage about the subject in published, reliable, secondary sources that are independent of the subject at that point. Polygnotus (talk) 19:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
    "Godber family outside their house 'Railway Whare' at 23 Bay Street, Petone, circa 1906. From left to right: Albert Percy Godber, Mary Ann Godber, Laura Godber, Phyllis and William. Photograph taken by Albert Percy Godber"
    And this a request to revisit his finding. We have a photographer from more than 100 years ago who documented areas of New Zealand's North Island. We have his work in a National Library collection. We have his work discussed as iconic for one of his Maori related photographs. We have his work revisited in a 2018 exhibition. We have descriptions of him related to his photographs, his career, and we have the photos themselves documenting the areas industries, sites, infrastructure from more than 100 years ago. If I was satisfied with the previous conclusions I would not be here. So I ask again, should we have an entry on this subject? Should we just attribute his photos where we use them to an unlinked name with no explanation or discussion of who he was? I think the answer is clear, and I wanted to hear Jimbo's opinion. I am aware of what was previously stated. Years have passed and I believe it's time to reevaluate and consider. I also think it's worth reflecting on our article creations processes more generally and how we apply our conception of "notability". FloridaArmy (talk) 23:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Godber's photographs include "views of the Hutt Valley including large numbers of cars traveling to Trentham Racecourse, and the Hutt River. Another group of images relate to a holiday at the Mendip Hills Homestead in Canterbury, New Zealand with scenes of farm life, including haymaking, merino sheep, and farm buildings. During their stay in the South Island Godber also took photographs of Dunedin (including the Ross Reservoir, Otago Boys' High School, Seacliff Mental Hospital, the 1926 Dunedin Exhibition, and the Hillside Railway Workshops); Invercargill (including the Invercargill Railway Workshops); Stewart Island, Moeraki, Tuatapere, Waiau River, Oamaru and Port Chalmers. Various railway stations in Canterbury and Otago, the Burnside Iron Mills, and the Rosslyn Mills. Godber was a volunteer fireman with the Petone Fire Brigade with the album including views of the building, groups of firemen, fire engines and other fire fighting equipment, and a building in Petone damaged by fire. In his work with New Zealand Railways, mainly at the Petone Railway Workshops, he took interior photographs of various buildings, including the Machine Shop and finishing benches, the engine room, lathes, boilers, and fitting shops. He also took photographs of many of the steam engines that were built and worked on at the workshops. One scene shows a group of men watching a fight. Many images show his interest in logging railways, particularly in the Piha, Karekare, Anawhata area. Scenes of logging camps, various methods of transporting logs including bullock teams, logging trains, and dams created and then tripped to send logs down by river, and timber mills. Other topics covered in Godber's photographs are scenes at Maori marae and meeting houses, with some of the people identified; Maori carving and rafter designs; beekeeping, and gold mining." FloridaArmy (talk) 23:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
    • It's hard to choose which photos to share. Historic views areas, industries, bridges, natural features, railways and bridges, crafts. Here's a link to his photos on Misplaced Pages Commons. Many already illustrate our entries on various subjects. FloridaArmy (talk) 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

    Just wanted to say

    You have created something valuable to everyone on the Internet. I'm sure you get this a lot, but thank you.
    It may sound weird, but Misplaced Pages has helped me through some tough times. We can never thank you enough for this sometimes infighting, sometimes peaceful, sometimes divided, but always united community You are the backbone of the cabal of editors thriving community that is Misplaced Pages. I wish I could give you a BarnMilkyWay but no one's come up with that, apparently. (3OpenEyes's talk page. Say hi!) | (PS: Have a good day) 00:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

    Requests for comment/Severe Problems in hewiki

    For the interested. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:58, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

    Summary: This document intends to show the problematic situation in Hebrew Misplaced Pages (hewiki), and provide evidence that it has been overtaken by a group of mostly religious and nationalist editors, who prevent others from achieving higher permissions while promoting their own allies. –Novem Linguae (talk) 22:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

    Happy new year

    Good days, Jimbo. I'd like to say that Chinese Misplaced Pages is introducing ARBCOM System currently, since Arbcom on this project, and in fact all the project is originated from the idea of yours, do you have any opinion for that? Any hints, advice or suggestions? -Lemonaka 15:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

    Scoop: Heritage Foundation plans to ‘identify and target’ Misplaced Pages editors

    That doesn't sound good. From The Forward. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

    Being discussed at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Heritage Foundation intending to "identify and target" editors. CMD (talk) 10:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
    Thanks! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
    Also discussed at Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel_articles_5/Evidence#Edit_request and Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Heritage_Foundation_planning_to_dox_Wikipedia_editors. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
    Category: