| Revision as of 01:26, 1 March 2015 editHijiri88 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users37,390 edits →Foreword← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 15:50, 17 July 2024 edit undoQwerfjkl (bot) (talk | contribs)Bots, Mass message senders4,013,136 editsm Removed deprecated parameters in {{Talk header}} that are now handled automatically (Task 30)Tag: paws [2.2] |
| (354 intermediate revisions by 32 users not shown) |
| Line 1: |
Line 1: |
|
|
{{talkheader}} |
|
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1= |
|
|
|
{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|class=B|living=no|listas=Miyazawa, Kenji|1= |
|
{{WikiProject Biography |
|
|
|
{{WikiProject Biography|a&e-work-group=yes}} |
|
|living=no |
|
|
|class=B |
|
|
|listas=Miyazawa, Kenji |
|
|
}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Children's literature|class=C|importance=Mid}} |
|
{{WikiProject Children's literature|class=C|importance=Mid}} |
|
{{WikiProject Japan|class=B|importance=high}} |
|
{{WikiProject Japan|importance=mid|bio=y}} |
|
{{WikiProject Constructed languages|class=C|importance=Low|Esperanto=yes}} |
|
{{WikiProject Constructed languages|class=C|importance=Low|Esperanto=yes}} |
|
|
}} |
|
|
{{User:MiszaBot/config |
|
|
|archiveheader = {{Talkarchivenav}} |
|
|
|maxarchivesize = 150K |
|
|
|counter = 3 |
|
|
|minthreadsleft = 5 |
|
|
|minthreadstoarchive = 1 |
|
|
|algo = old(180d) |
|
|
|archive = Talk:Kenji Miyazawa/Archive %(counter)d |
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Move protection == |
|
{{archivetop}} |
|
|
== "Nationalist"? == |
|
|
|
|
|
I removed the unqualified claim that he was a "nationalist" from the intro. One of the two sources cited was a 2006 PhD dissertation that was about about a religious and quasi-political ideology with which he was affiliated. The problem is that even though ''that'' source appears to be, in its brief coverage of the subject of this article, directly associating Kenji's politics with those of his co-religionists, it ''also'' specifies that hardly any other reliable sources make this connection. This means that the source is not sufficient for the claim that "Kenji Miyazawa was a nationalist"; it is sufficient for the statement "A minority of scholars have attributed nationalistic leanings to Miyazawa". The view is ]. I don't mean "fringe" in a derogatory sense. I just mean it is a view that is "not widely held among the academic community yet". Kenji scholars can duke this issue out in journal articles and scholarly books. If at some point the scholarly consensus becomes "Kenji was a nationalist" (i.e., a scholar makes the specific claim that this is the consensus view and is not called out by his/her peers) ''then'' we can add this statement to the article. ] (]) 13:42, 6 June 2014 (UTC) |
|
|
:Please refrain from deleting referenced sources. He was also a member of Kokuchūkai.--] (]) 13:55, 6 June 2014 (UTC) |
|
|
::If this is going to elevate I should admit outright that I am ]. I'm editing logged out for reasons. |
|
|
::The reliable sources all state that he was a member of a religious group. I've read numerous books and articles that state he adhered strongly to the religious views of this group. None of them mentioned the politics of the group, or hinted that he himself shared the ''political'' views of the group's leaders. The only source that ''does'' imply he shared these views also admits openly that this is a minority view. |
|
|
::] (]) 14:10, 6 June 2014 (UTC) |
|
|
::(EDIT CONFLICT) Why did you ] me again without trying to discuss here first? ] says that the burden is on the party wishing to add information to the article that to find source that specifically support said information. I provided a coherent argument that your sources do ''not'' support your claim but in fact ''contradict'' your claim. ] (]) 14:14, 6 June 2014 (UTC) |
|
|
Follow the procedure so far you deletion is nothing else than a private opinion. --] (]) 14:12, 6 June 2014 (UTC) |
|
|
:Again, per ]: please provide a source that actually supports the claim you are trying to add to the article. ] (]) 14:14, 6 June 2014 (UTC) |
|
|
:Also, since I'm arguing that "he was a nationalist" is a minority view and so it is inappropriate to make this claim per ] and ], I would draw your attention to ]: ''Reliably published tertiary sources can be helpful in providing broad summaries of topics that involve many primary and secondary sources, and may be helpful in evaluating due weight, especially when primary or secondary sources contradict each other''. I wonder if you can find a reliably published encyclopedia or similar whose article on Miyazawa Kenji states "Miyazawa Kenji was a nationalist"? ] (]) 14:18, 6 June 2014 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
::It turns out not only ] but ] is also on my side here. This claim was unilaterally and ] added to the article by Catflap08 in January, challenged by another user (not me) in April before being re-added again, without justification, by Catflap08. Since the default position should be "leave it out", I'm going to remove the claim again, and if Catflap08 attempts to re-add it without discussing here, I will take it as an indication that he/she is unwilling to use the talk page and our dispute will need to go to ] or ]. ] (]) 14:40, 6 June 2014 (UTC) |
|
|
already brought the case to the attention of admins ... mentioning both your names--] (]) 14:43, 6 June 2014 (UTC) |
|
|
:You mean you posted on a semi-protected noticeboard so I would be unable to respond without logging in. Please read ]. I have been trying to discuss this content dispute with you on this talk page, but you jumped ahead and complained about me to the admin corps without making ''any'' attempt to use the talk page. ] (]) 14:48, 6 June 2014 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Third Opinion == |
|
|
|
|
|
<!-- If the person mentioned was a member of a nationalistic religious group why should this be omitted from the introduction? As a matter of fact the introduction per se needs no references anyway.--] (]) 17:29, 6 June 2014 (UTC) --> |
|
|
This figure was a member of the religio-political group ], which was founded by the nationalist ]. Very few sources independently refer to Kenji as a nationalist. Should the article refer to him as a nationalist? ] (]) 02:07, 21 June 2014 (UTC) |
|
|
:::<small>I hid Catflap's initial, biased OP as a ] as it didn't meet the neutrality requirement of ] and apparently misled a couple of other participants who don't appear to have read my remarks below. ] (]) 02:07, 21 June 2014 (UTC) </small> |
|
|
{{collapse top|title=126 reply detailing coverage of the subject in relation to nationalism in reliable and semi-reliable sources.}} |
|
|
:So what you're saying, Catflap, is that we should claim "Kenji Miyazawa was a nationalist" without even citing a source? Almost no reliable sources actually say he was a nationalist. They say he was a devout follower of Nichiren Buddhism. ] reliable sources state that the founder of the particular religious group was a nationalist, that the group had nationalistic leanings, etc. But this is equivalent to adding the phrase "She is an opponent of gay marriage" to the article on ] because ] of ] holds that view. ] (]) 22:04, 6 June 2014 (UTC) |
|
|
:Since this subject is notable ''exclusively'' as a writer I added the "media, the arts, and architecture" topic to this RfC, and since the present dispute is based entirely on his religious affiliation I added the religion topic as well. Since your assertion is about his political views the politics topic was also added. Also, I should point out the following noteworthy data regarding the classification of Kenji as a "nationalist": |
|
|
::For ] reasons every possible Japanese word for "nationalist" (noun referring to a person) is derived from one of the root words meaning "nationalism". Since some sources might refer to him as, for instance, "nationalistic" or following a group that is associated with "nationalism", I decided to search only for the words in their simplest form. I then looked up the word "nationalism" in the English-Japanese dictionary ''Genius Ei-Wa Daijiten'' (Konishi and Minamide, Taishukan, 2001-2004). There were four words that could be taken as referring to the {{nihongo|political ideology|主義|shugi}} of nationalism (as opposed to words describing artistic movements or psychological tendencies): ''kokka-shugi'', ''minzoku-shugi'', ''kokusui-shugi'' and ''aikoku-shugi''. I then examined the search results on Google Books, general Google search for specifically the Miyazawa Kenji Memorial Museum website, and general Google search for Japanese university domain-names. My search was slightly complicated by Kenji's surname being written two different ways in Japanese (宮沢/宮澤). This is why every possible combination has two links given. I focused on Japanese-language sources because somewhere between 90% and 99.99% of Kenji scholarship is in Japanese and has never been (will never be) translated. Therefore, if there is ever a claim made about Kenji in English-language source that is not backed up by Japanese-language scholarship, it is by definition ]. I also notice that ]'s user page boasts of speaking German, English and some French, but not Japanese. This makes it very difficult for this user to analyze mainstream scholarship on this topic. |
|
|
::Please also bear in mind that these results are the ones that happen to include one or more of words for "nationalism" somewhere in the same book/webpage as the name "Miyazawa Kenji". The results almost certainly include a plurality of sources that say "Miyazawa Kenji was not a nationalist and here's why", "Tanaka Chigaku was nationalist ... ... poet and children's author Miyazawa Kenji found Chigaku's religious views compelling" or, like Catflap08's source, "I think Miyazawa Kenji was a nationalist, but as of yet no one else agrees with me". The results that ''include'' one or more of the words for "nationalism" are also partly (mostly?) multiplied unduly, because of sources that use more than one of these words being counted twice, three times or four times. |
|
|
:::Mentions of "nationalism" on the official Miyazawa Kenji Memorial Museum website: ; ; ; |
|
|
:::Books mentioning Miyazawa Kenji: + = 227,900 |
|
|
::::Books mentioning Miyazawa Kenji and nationalism (''kokka-shugi''): + = 537 |
|
|
::::Books mentioning Miyazawa Kenji and nationalism (''minzoku-shugi''): + = 155 |
|
|
::::Books mentioning Miyazawa Kenji and nationalism (''kokusui-shugi''): + = 154 |
|
|
::::Books mentioning Miyazawa Kenji and nationalism (''aikoku-shugi''): + = 56 |
|
|
:::::Total number of books mentioning Miyazawa Kenji and nationalism: 537 + 155 + 154 + 56 = 902 |
|
|
::::::'''Proportion of books mentioning Miyazawa Kenji that also mention nationalism: 902/227,900 = 0.4%''' |
|
|
:::Japanese university-domain webpages mentioning Miyazawa Kenji: + = 28,000 |
|
|
::::Japanese university-domain webpages mentioning Miyazawa Kenji and nationalism (''kokka-shugi''): + = 361 |
|
|
::::Japanese university-domain webpages mentioning Miyazawa Kenji and nationalism (''minzoku-shugi''): + = 574 |
|
|
::::Japanese university-domain webpages mentioning Miyazawa Kenji and nationalism (''kokusui-shugi''): + = 88 |
|
|
::::Japanese university-domain websites mentioning Miyazawa Kenji and nationalism (''aikoku-shugi''): + = 117 |
|
|
:::::Total number of Japanese university-domain websites mentioning Miyazawa Kenji and nationalism: 361 + 574 + 88 + 117 = 1,140 |
|
|
::::::'''Proportion of Japanese university-domain websites mentioning Miyazawa Kenji that also mention nationalism: 1,140/28,000 = 4.1%''' |
|
|
::So yeah, virtually all reliable/semi-reliable sources mentioning/discussing the subject of this article make ''no mention whatsoever'' of nationalism ''of any kind''. "Miyazawa Kenji was a nationalist" is a ], as Catflap08's source '''actually admits'''. Ball's in your court, Catflap. |
|
|
::] (]) 11:45, 7 June 2014 (UTC) |
|
|
{{collapse bottom}} |
|
|
*The balance of the evidence suggests that characterizing Kenji as a nationalist is not supported by a majority of reliable sources. At this point, omitting the characterization may be the most prudent course of action. ] (]) 00:36, 9 June 2014 (UTC) |
|
|
:::https://en.wikipedia.org/Kokuch%C5%ABkai and the article on the founder seems to confirm the group has 'nationalist tendencies' to some degree. I guess the question is if it is helpful to include this or if there is a good reason? I don't think you could say "..is a nationalist', but if it fit, you could allude "was a member of Kokuchu-kai, a group observed as being nationalist" or ..with a renowned Nationalist leader. It does seem like there would have to be some correlation with his personal leanings and the group he joined, as it is different than just working for a company. Joining a religious organization of that sort is implying there is at least some interest in the behavior or beliefs. ] (]) 03:49, 20 June 2014 (UTC) |
|
|
::::If he was a confirmed member of the organization, then you can say so uncontroversially. As to whether it was "nationalist" is a discussion for that article, not this one. At any rate, back in those days, nationalism was hardly exceptional. ] (]) 06:53, 20 June 2014 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::@] The article already does say he was a member of the group. Thing is, the group is arguably best-known as the religious group of which he was part. And he himself was almost certainly ''not'' a nationalist. Almost no reliable sources discussing him (including the group's official website's on him) refer to him as sharing the nationalistic views of the group's founder. |
|
|
:::::@] Please read ] before citing other Misplaced Pages articles to solve a dispute on this (currently much better) Misplaced Pages article. One of those articles was written in its entirety by Catflap based entirely on sources discussing Japanese nationalism during World War II, as discussed on ]. Anyway, you could repeat my earlier Google experiment with "nationalism" "replaced with "Kokuchūkai" and find that almost all reliable sources discussing Kenji ''also'' mention that he was a member of the group, but almost never refer to either him or the group as nationalist. |
|
|
:::::] (]) 00:11, 21 June 2014 (UTC) |
|
|
*'''Disagree''' Not enough support in third-party, reliable sources to support this characterization. -] (]) 11:28, 22 June 2014 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::Okay yes I see this is quite clear now. Seems to be a single user's opinion as opposed to something that is validly sourced or established. ] (]) 03:37, 24 June 2014 (UTC) |
|
|
*'''No''' - Do not refer to Kenji as a nationalist. At first glance, I'm having trouble seeing any sources which uses this adjective in relation to Kenji. I'm happy to change to mind if anyone wants to point to an RS for me. ] (]) 18:46, 25 June 2014 (UTC) |
|
|
*'''Not a Nationalist''' After spending a great deal of time looking at Japanese references to Miyazawa, I come to the same conclusion as the IP editor above. Simple membership of a group does not mean one agrees with the views of a group's leader. Unions, trade guilds, etc all have members of dissociative views, the leader of the ] is a , that doesn't make every union member a communist as well. ] ] ߷ ] 00:43, 15 July 2014 (UTC) |
|
|
*'''Oppose "nationalist" characterization''' Not enough sources claim otherwise. --] (]) 22:42, 17 July 2014 (UTC) |
|
|
*'''Closing''' because it's pretty clear there's a consensus. I suggest moving on to more interesting content. I came here intending to start the ], but I see someone else has already gotten it going in the last few weeks. Maybe some of the people here would like to work on ] or ]. "どっどどどどうど どどうど どどう" ] (]) 05:04, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
|
|
{{archivebottom}} |
|
|
|
|
|
== Kokuchūkai == |
|
|
|
|
|
Sorry to say that, but to say that he was a ‚devout‘ Buddhist might sound fluffy and cuddly in a Western perspective, but he was a member of Kokuchūkai which should be mentioned. He was no registered member of any traditional Buddhist temple, even within Nichiren Buddhism. Him being a member of Kokuchūkai is part of his biography to call him therefore a devout Buddhist is itself farfetched. --] (]) 22:00, 23 December 2014 (UTC) |
|
|
:I'm not sure what fluffiness has to do with it. His connections to Kokuchūkai are dealt with after the lede; unless you are going to explain in the lede what Kokuchūkai is, that would make the lede opaque to most readers. , , , , . This is from a few minutes on just English-language sites. ]<small>]</small> 06:16, 24 December 2014 (UTC) |
|
|
::The term ‘Kokuchūkai’ has an interwiki link. The average reader should be allowed the intelligence to press that link and find out what Kokuchūkai is all about. Traditionally in Japan one would be expected to be registered with a temple when called a Buddhist. Kokuchūkai is a lay organisation, not affiliated to any Buddhist school and with a dubious nationalist agenda - why is that a problem to mention?--] (]) 17:18, 29 December 2014 (UTC) |
|
|
@ ] Why should it be poking to mention in the introduction a fact that the main text elaborates on? I find your edit itself to be POV as it seems you do not like that fact to be mentioned. He is no more mentioned as a Nationalist but member of Kokuchūkai. Seems like whitewashing his biography.--] (]) 10:50, 26 February 2015 (UTC) |
|
|
:<EDIT CONFLICT> Because the sources that merely summarize the facts briefly (as our lead should) and even many that go into further detail don't even mention the organization. They simply refer to him as a devout follower of Nichiren Buddhism. You removed all reference in the Kokuchūkai article to the balance problems in that article, then wikilinked to it in the lead of this article. Your comments immediately above this one make it clear that that was your intent, and they also make clear why. You want this article to come as close as possible to saying "he was a nationalist" as it can. You have been engaged in a slow motion edit war on this topic for , and you have come up against ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] (possibly more including ] who commented on the inappropriateness of your behaviour without remark on the content and ] whose view on the content was ambivalent).<!-- Sorry to anyone who didn't want to be pinged. You can just ignore it if you like. --> This type of disruptive, ] behaviour has gotten other users TBANned/blocked. You clearly are not interested in the topic of Miyazawa Kenji -- if you were, you would have read one of the hundreds of sources that refer to him as a devout Buddhist without any reference to nationalism, sometimes without even naming the Kokuchūkai -- so why not just move on to something else? ] (<small>]]</small>) 12:33, 26 February 2015 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
Even in the foreword to „The dragon and the Poet“ his Kokuchūkai membership is mentioned. Its not my fault that Kokuchūkai is what it is.--] (]) 12:16, 26 February 2015 (UTC) |
|
|
:Which translation? And why not read a biography of the man, or his entry in one of the histories of Japanese literature, or some such? Anyway, don't close a comment addressed to another user with a question and then some time later tag more commentary on to it. I was already done answering your question (beginning with "Because") before you wrote the above. ] (<small>]]</small>) 12:33, 26 February 2015 (UTC) |
|
|
:: I can not see what you are doing at the same time as I do. Here you go |
|
|
::https://books.google.de/books?id=4JUBAwAAQBAJ&pg=PP3&lpg=PP3&dq=Kokuch%C5%ABkai%E2%80%8E&source=bl&ots=0hBZQnOqLS&sig=DKHL5IQrEkGmUxPCyOekxtC0PNA&hl=de&sa=X&ei=rgHvVMq2IJDhaMzZgOgI&ved=0CFEQ6AEwCjgK#v=onepage&q=Kokuch%C5%ABkai%E2%80%8E&f=false |
|
|
::--] (]) 12:50, 26 February 2015 (UTC) |
|
|
:::I can't see the reference to Kokuchūkai, but it's a translation of a children's book and from the cover/title it appears to be itself aimed at children. Is it in a biography of the man? Anyway, even the best single source is still just a single source. You were met with comprehensive analyses of how Kenji is discussed in hundreds of sources in his own language -- the language of 99% of Kenji scholarship -- and failed to respond. You waited for me to drift away to other concerns and then dropped in to reinsert the same questionable material you were already told numerous times not to. ] (<small>]]</small>) 13:10, 26 February 2015 (UTC) |
|
|
:::My is another piece worth noting, but here's some more: |
|
|
:::#When we search the websites of Japanese universities for the name "Miyazawa Kenji" (in its most common orthography for simplicity) we get . |
|
|
:::#When we take away all references to "Kokuchū" (by any orthography; ''-kai'' can also be spelled a few ways, but isn't important) we get . |
|
|
:::#Okay, fine. Maybe the majority of those are merely library listings of book titles, so of course they don't connect the man with the group. So how about this. When we change "Miyazawa Kenji" to "Miyazawa Kenji wa" (which tends to appear at the start of sentences, so likely not too many library listings of book titles) and add the names of two of his most well-known works, "Ginga Tetsudō no Yoru" and "Haru to Shura" so as to guarantee no library listings of any one of his works, we get . |
|
|
:::#When we take away any any reference to "Kokuchū" (see above for rationale) we get . |
|
|
:::So yes, clearly a decent proportion of sources ''do'' mention the Kokuchūkai in relation to him -- but not enough to justify the emphasis you are trying to give it. |
|
|
:::] (<small>]]</small>) 13:46, 26 February 2015 (UTC) |
|
|
::::Sorry I have no idea what you are on about. In the source, a forward to one of his works a short bio is included. Months ago somebody argued the nationalistic case – point taken. He was a member of Kokuchokai end of story, that’s what his faith was built on and Kokuchokai was what it then was. Since you go on about it in two articles you seem to have a problem with Kokuchokai. --] (]) 13:50, 26 February 2015 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::Great. And once someone rewrites the Kokuchūkai article to put less ] on the group's nationalism -- a nationalism no one except a lone Misplaced Pages editor seems to think Kenji shared -- then maybe wikilinking the group's article in the lead will be appropriate. You don't know what I'm on about for the same reason you appear to now think it's spelled "Kokuchokai"<!-- misspelling it the same way three times in a row --> -- you don't read Japanese and you are (at best) clumsy with sources in languages you ''do'' speak. You clearly have no interest in this topic and have no intention of improving this article. You are here solely to push a fringe POV. You have been violating consensus and behaving disruptively on this article for over a year now. If you try to violate consensus by pushing this POV in the article again, I will request for you to be TBANned. ] (<small>]]</small>) 14:03, 26 February 2015 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::The article on Kokuchūkai is written based on sources available and if you call me clumsy call all authors on the issue clumsy too. As far as I know “Kai” means society. It is not my fault that the guy was in this organisation. I think you may be pushing things rewriting articles in order to fit your view of the world thereby ignoring what sources have to say about the issue. --] (]) 14:38, 26 February 2015 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::::Yes, and you know nothing else about the man, it seems. In your brief examinations of a limited number of sources of Nichiren groups you came across the name Miyazawa Kenji, and so you came on Misplaced Pages, looked up the name and rewrote the article to include every few paragraphs the unattested claim that he was a nationalist. You have been fighting for the last year to keep the article this way, against unanimous opposition. Your claims that "his faith was based on the Kokuchūkai" are wrong -- says his faith was based on his reading of the Lotus Sutra. '''''STOP TRYING TO REWRITE THIS ARTICLE'S LEAD TO FIT YOUR OWN POV NOW OR YOU WILL BE TAKEN TO ANI.''''' ] (<small>]]</small>) 15:12, 26 February 2015 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::::By the way, wasn't me. Nor was ] (<small>]]</small>) 15:16, 26 February 2015 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::::You are contradicting yourself. In the lede the Nationalist issues was gone since June 2014. I inserted the fact that he was a member of Kokuchokai, a fact nobody denies. Now you say he was a Nichiren Buddhist. Nichiren Buddhism is not a sect or school. So in effect you do not want to see that a reference is made to the fact that the guy was a member of Kokuchokai – right? As this would specify to which branch of Nichiren Buddhism he belonged – and by all means a controversial branch. So to sum this issue up you want referenced information not be on display – right? --] (]) 16:08, 26 February 2015 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::::::If "he was a member of Kokuchukai" is not related to "he was a nationalist", then why did ? You are trying to unbalance this article in favour of your own POV, as you have been stubbornly doing for over a year. Your latest attempt to sneak "Kokuchukai" into the article via an otherwise unnecessary link to a Google Books search for the word is yet another example of this disruptive behaviour. It has already been explained to you by a dozen other users why your edits here are inappropriate, but you appear either ] or ] to listen. This is beginning to drain on my patience. If you waste any more of my time on this petty bickering, I will request that you be topic-banned or blocked. ] (<small>]]</small>) 03:31, 27 February 2015 (UTC) |
|
|
{{outdent}}{{uninvolved}} I removed this from the ] (as well as ) because each are disputes between more than two editors. I personally have no opinion on the subject, but I would advise all parties to read ]. '''<span style="color:red;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:green;">]</span></sup></small> 04:32, 27 February 2015 (UTC) |
|
|
::@ ] You seem to get the line of events confused. I did indeed insert the nationalist issue which some found to be disputed. I then inserted that he was a member of Kokuchokai, which since inserted nobody objected to – as he was a member of that group (quite devoted actually) – which you deleted. And now you are trying to warn me!?--] (]) 17:55, 27 February 2015 (UTC) |
|
|
:::The best description of his religious affiliation is "he was a devout follower of Nichiren Buddhism, which had a significant influence on several of his literary works, and had a special affection for the Lotus Sutra". Very few sources even mention the Kokuchukai, and those that do ''never'' draw the same conclusions you have, which you explicitly stated are the conclusions you also want this article's readers to draw. Your specific desire to name the ''organization'' with which he was affiliated, and to overlink your own poorly-written article on that group so as to encourage our readers to draw the same conclusion you have, is disruptive. Three users -- ], the and myself -- have all independently opposed you on this point, and no one has taken your side. ] (<small>]]</small>) 01:36, 28 February 2015 (UTC) |
|
|
:::I know you probably think, again in violation of ], that the IP was me, but please consider that the IP reverted you on January 13, you reverted back immediately, I was actively making logged-in edits at the time, and it took me over a month to notice what had been going on on this page. ] (<small>]]</small>) 01:47, 28 February 2015 (UTC) |
|
|
@ ] The term “devout” seems a rather peacock term please note ]. You keep changing the subject. First of all I changed the wording in June 2014 to the effect that he was a nationalist, this was challenged and discussed. I accepted that. I then entered the fact that he was a member Kokuchukai, This remained to be in the article until you deleted it. A fact that is mentioned in the main body of the article. You then carried on and deleted a reference I added dealing with the issue in the foreword to one of his own translations. You said you found it not suitable which is a POV, you insert “devout Nichiren Buddhist” you like the wording better. In effect you delete a reference that deals with the fact discussed and deleted factual information with a vague statement.--] (]) 07:54, 28 February 2015 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
I have now added a RfC, as it becomes increasingly harder to follow your intention about the outcome of this discussion. Additionally you have added comments on both talk pages that I find to come close to a personal attack/insult.--] (]) 08:29, 28 February 2015 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
==RfC: Membership in Kokuchūkai and reference to it== |
|
|
{{rfc|bio|reli|rfcid=F4C051D}} |
|
|
|
|
|
Membership to Kokuchūkai deleted in lede, reference dealing with it also deleted.--] (]) 08:08, 28 February 2015 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
The above is a gross misrepresentation of the dispute, and this RFC was made in bad faith by someone being opposed by all three other involved users, in violation of ] and ]. ] (<small>]]</small>) 12:20, 28 February 2015 (UTC) |
|
|
:So much for gross misinterpretation. |
|
|
: #1: |
|
|
: #2: --] (]) 15:07, 28 February 2015 (UTC) |
|
|
::What about the fact that this RFC is just forum-shopping, after three other users have already opposed this specific edit, and about a dozen more opposed your earlier characterization of Kenji as a "nationalist", and at the time ? This RFC is simply ], in which numerous users opposed your additions and ''no one'' agreed with you, and your failure to admit to these facts in your opening summary is ]. ] (<small>]]</small>) 15:38, 28 February 2015 (UTC) |
|
|
@ ] The edit you refer to was overturned in June 2014. You now however oppose the fact him being mentioned as a member of that organisation in the lede. Calling him a devout Buddhist is one thing (even though quite misleading) – why is it such a problem to state exactly which Buddhist organisation he was a member of? Again you accuse me of stuff as all I did was inserting documented facts. --] (]) 16:49, 28 February 2015 (UTC) |
|
|
:It's a violation of ] to refer to the organization in the lede. All our sources indicate that he was interested in the faith in the Lotus Sutra, not, as you put it in your discussion of your ''current'' proposed wording, . You've been about as clear as you can be that emphasizing Kenji's supposed nationalism is your goal here, so mentioning the fact that consensus was already against you on this fact and the current RFC is a violation of ] is entirely relevant. Also, regarding Kenji's mostly non-denominational devotion to the Lotus Sutra, I would draw potential commenters to the ] quote . ] (<small>]]</small>) 17:39, 28 February 2015 (UTC) |
|
|
Well what about he was devout Buddhist and member of Kokuchūkai? Saying in the lede that he was devout Buddhist makes him look to the reader as a guy may be sitting in mediation in a zen monastery drinking tea and writing poetry. He was not. He was a member of a Buddhist organisation on the fringe of Nichiren Buddhism. A form of Buddhism that some say to be on the fringe of Buddhism full stop. Further … when you speak of „Plan“. Yes there was indeed a plan. I work mainly on Nichiren related matters. If you look up some dictionaries Nichiren Buddhism is often connected to fierce nationalism and many issue become mixed up. I therefore researched the issue and came across the term “Nichirenshugi” which scholars translate as ] in this conext one comes across Kokuchūkai and ], ] and ]. I guess they all had the plan to discredit Miyazawa. Certainly any author out there mentioning Miyazawa’s membership with Kokuchūkai are also part of a great big “plan”.--] (]) 20:46, 28 February 2015 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Foreword == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
{{ping|MusikAnimal}} Would you mind removing the move protection from the page? The edit war in question ended 8 years ago (and didn't really relate to the article title to begin with). The article's current title accords with the 2015 version of ]. It was at that time technically in violation of ] as well as the current Japan MOS. Since the article hasn't seen much controversy since the original content dispute in 2015, I don't think there'd be any reason moving the page to ] would be controversial or require discussion. ] (<small>]]</small>) 11:26, 3 December 2023 (UTC) |
|
I will yet include the reference made in a foreword to one of Miyazawa’s English language translations. A Foreword that makes reference of him being a Buddhist, Nichiren Buddhist and member of Kokuchūkai. Further more this is a reference for all to read via google books.--] (]) 21:36, 28 February 2015 (UTC) |
|
|
|
:Hi Hijiri88, any page move that was previously controversial should be treated as a ]. The move protection can probably be lifted as you said, but I would be inclined to oppose moving this page (i.e. I do think "someone could reasonably disagree with the move"), so we may as well go through a normal RM discussion if necessary. ]<small>]</small> 02:15, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
|
:The English in that foreword is ''terrible'', though not much worse than what you have been expecting me to read on these talk pages. Worse, it doesn't actually say what you claim it does. It says the same thing as the ] quote : that his membership in the Kokuchukai was peripheral to his biography at best and all that really mattered to him was the Lotus Sutra itself. ] (<small>]]</small>) 01:26, 1 March 2015 (UTC) |
|
|
|
::I concur with the above. I will still remove the move protection, but ideally a proper ] discussion will still follow. <span style="font-family:sans-serif">— <span style="font-weight:bold">] <sup>]</sup></span></span> 18:41, 5 December 2023 (UTC) |
