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Revision as of 17:41, 2 April 2015 editRationalobserver (talk | contribs)11,997 edits Undid revision 654661269 by Victoriaearle (talk) not welcome here← Previous edit Latest revision as of 19:30, 22 April 2022 edit undoMalnadachBot (talk | contribs)11,637,095 editsm Fixed Lint errors. (Task 12)Tag: AWB 
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{{retire}}]
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Now that Sarah is trying to get me topic banned from GAN and FAC () (and throwing around yet another empty socking allegation), I've decided that the best solution here is for me to retire. The clique that wants me gone won't ever stop, and nobody will ever have the courage to stop them. I'm deeply sad for Misplaced Pages, but this isn't my fight. Good luck! ]] 17:07, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
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#084080; text-align:left; color:black; padding-left:0.4em; padding-top: 0.2em; padding-bottom: 0.2em;"><p>Hello, Rationalobserver, and ''']'''</p>
<p>Thank you for ] to this 💕. If you decide that you need help, check out ''Getting Help'' below, ask me on ], or place '''{{Tlc|Help me}}''' on your talk page and ask your question there. Please remember to ] by clicking ] or ] or by typing four tildes <nowiki>(~~~~)</nowiki>; this will automatically produce your username and the date. Also, please do your best to always fill in the ]. Below are some useful links to facilitate your involvement. Happy editing! ] ] <small>Please &#123;&#123;]&#125;&#125;</small> 23:18, 29 September 2014 (UTC)</p>
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|} ] ] <small>Please &#123;&#123;]&#125;&#125;</small> 23:18, 29 September 2014 (UTC)


== One way interaction ban ==
== Please comment on ] ==


If you refer, anywhere, directly or indirectly, to Godot13, you will be blocked indefinitely, with talk page access removed. Retire if you want to retire, stay if you want to stay (if the ANI thread allows you to), but you're finished talking about Godot13. --] (]) 19:42, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
The ] is asking for participation in ]. <!-- Template:FRS message --> <!-- FRS id 23309 --> ] (]) 00:05, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
:The very basis of the An/I is that I made baseless claims and assumptions, and now you are making it impossible for me to address that accusation. ]] 19:44, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
::If you want to think about it that way, that's OK with me. --] (]) 19:44, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
:::He lied about me though, and you are making it impossible for me to address his accusations. ]] 19:45, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
*{{u|28bytes}}, Floq just made it impossible for me to defend myself against the ongoing An/I. ]] 19:46, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
*RO: it's worth remembering that the Wikicup is pretty much just an on-wiki contest for imaginary points; the purpose of the Wikicup to begin with is just to result in Misplaced Pages having better content, there's no actual award. It's not something worth stressing over, and even if you disagree with the contest's rules, well, it's still a contest for imaginary points ;). It also doesn't stop you from participating in the AN/I thread as a whole. ] (]) 19:53, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
::This isn't really about the Wikicup, which I don't care about. There were lies used to form the basis of that An/I, and now they cannot be addressed. I was not wrong and my assumptions were not unfounded or baseless, so the very title of that report is a lie. Doesn't that matter? ]] 19:55, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
:::No, seriously, the post above is an indirect mention. Email Kevin (if he's willing) if you want to follow this line of discussion. --] (]) 20:11, 17 November 2015 (UTC)


==]== == Blocked ==
I really appreciate the tremendous amount of time and effort you've put into this. Would you be kind enough to have a look at Citation 40. ] is quite right, it doesn't work and I've no idea why. If it can't be fixed, I can remove the whole sentence about the copy, but that would be a pity as it can be seen at The Higgins and is a rather nice piece. Thanks and best regards. ] (]) 07:13, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
: I got this one for you folks. Malformed template plus linkrot, but I cleaned up the markup and dredged an archival copy out of the Internet Archive. ] (]) 14:30, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
:: Thanks, Squeamish Ossifrage! ] (]) 16:42, 19 March 2015 (UTC)


I have blocked you indefinitely in relation to material which has been oversighted. This block is made in my capacity as an oversighter, and is not subject to public review. If you wish to discuss or appeal this block, please email me personally (], hjmitchell at ymail dot com), the functionaries mailing list (functionaries-en at lists.wikimedia.org), or the ]. ] &#124; ] 20:29, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
== The Signpost: 18 March 2015 ==


== WikiCup 2016 is just around the corner... ==
<div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2015-03-18}} </div><!--Volume 11, Issue 11--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 03:34, 21 March 2015 (UTC) </div></div>.
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Hello everyone, and we would like to wish you all a happy holiday season. As you will probably already know, the 2016 WikiCup begins in the new year; there is still time to ''']'''. There are some changes we'd like to announce before the competition begins.
== Please comment on ] ==


After two years of serving as WikiCup judge, ] has . He deserves great thanks and recognition for his dedication and hard work, and for providing necessary transition for a new group of judges in last year's Cup. Joining Christine (]) and Jason (]) is Andrew (]), a very successful WikiCup competitor and expert in ]; he won the two previous competitions. This is a strong judging team, and we anticipate lots of enjoyment and good work coming from our 2016 competitors.
The ] is asking for participation in ]. <!-- Template:FRS message --> <!-- FRS id 23505 --> ] (]) 00:03, 22 March 2015 (UTC)


We would also like to announce one change in how this year's WikiCup will be run. In the spirit of sportsmanship, Godot13 and ] have chosen to limit their participation. See for the announcement and a complete explanation of why. They and the judges feel that it will make for a more exciting, enjoyable, and productive competition.
== Color illustration? ==


The discussions/polls concerning the next competition's rules will be closed soon, and rules changes will be made clear on ] and talk pages. The judges are committed to not repeating the confusion that occurred last year and to ensuring that the new rules are both fair and in the best interests of the competition, which is, first and foremost, about improving Misplaced Pages.
Would you like a color illustration of ]?


If you have any questions or concerns, the judges can be reached on ], on their talk pages, or by email. We hope you will all join us in trying to make the 2015 WikiCup the most productive and enjoyable yet. <small>You are receiving this message because you are listed on ].</small> ] (]), ] (]), and ] (]).--] (]) 06:46, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
*
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*
*Washington : Government Printing Office, 1861
* Irataba is at left. This is plate IV on page 54. The artist is ]


== ] case closed ==
I had uploaded the illustration to my One Drive earlier, so that's why it's there.


''You are receiving this message because you are a party or offered a preliminary statement and/or evidence in the Arbitration enforcement 2 case. This is a one-time message.''
The HathiTrust text scan of the book is very bad--a lot of missing pages; the copy at Internet Archive is complete but the illustration plates in that scanned copy are in black and white. Be very cautious when getting images from New York Public Library; some of them have false copyright marks that show up in the EXIF data. The first upload of ] which NYPL dates from 1915 has a false copyright notation in the EXIF-copyright NYPL. The photo is really from 1914 or earlier. Take a look at the file's . ] (]) 00:51, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
: Thanks for this! I have a lot to learn when it comes to images, so I appreciate your help! ] (]) 16:30, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
: {{u|Simon Burchell}}, what do you make of the concern with NYPL? ] (]) 16:34, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
I think that some websites will try to claim blanket copyright on everything they host. There are very little grounds for being able to claim copyright on pre-1923 images in the US. Some useful pages are:
*]
*] - post image questions here and copyright-knowledgeable Commons users are usually very helpful.
* - ditto
At any rate, even if NYPL is giving erroneous publication data, 1914 or 1915 is irrelevant - the key year under US copyright law is publication before 1923. I hope this helps - but do ask across at Commons. ] (]) 18:41, 22 March 2015 (UTC)


The {{RFARlinks|Arbitration enforcement 2}} has been closed, and the following remedies have been enacted:
{{u|Simon Burchell}} and {{u|We hope}}, how do I cull from this treasure trove ()? ] (]) 23:49, 22 March 2015 (UTC)


1.1) The Arbitration Committee confirms the sanctions imposed on Eric Corbett as a result of the ] case, but mandates that all enforcement requests relating to them be filed at ] and be kept open for at least 24 hours.
::OK-their images come from a number of places- "All images are the property of the repository institution. They should not be reproduced for commercial purposes without the express permission of the repository institution". You'll need to find out who owns the image(s) you're interested in and what their policy is on use. Re: public domain, if it can't be used for commercial purposes if desired, then it isn't in the public domain. ] (]) 00:38, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
::: Thanks for the reply. One thing I noticed is that many of these are NPS pictures taken and published pre-1923. So is it possible that the site is claiming to own all these when they don't? Some of them must be PD. Don't you think? ] (]) 17:01, 23 March 2015 (UTC)


3) For his breaches of the standards of conduct expected of editors and administrators, Black Kite is admonished.
::::Sorry--didn't see this until now. Can you point out some of the NPS photos for me? If they were taken by NPS and that connection can be proven, they're in the public domain because they were taken in the course of duty by a government employee. ] (]) 21:55, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
::::: I guess there isn't a NPS filter, just one for Chaco Culture National Historical Park. Still, many of the collections there were created pre-1923. ] (]) 22:04, 24 March 2015 (UTC)


6) The community is reminded that discretionary sanctions have been authorised for any page relating to or any edit about: (i) the Gender Gap Task Force; (ii) the gender disparity among Wikipedians; and (iii) any process or discussion relating to these topics, all broadly construed.
* The Ireteba Peaks Wilderness (see ]) is named for him. The brochure was produced by the US Bureau of Land Management. Everything in it--text and photos--are in the public domain because it was created by a US government employee in the course of his/her work . Tag for it would be {{tl|PD-USGov-BLM}}. ] (]) 21:59, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
:: That's awesome! Thanks! ] (]) 22:04, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
:: What would a proper citation to this brochure look like? ] (]) 22:07, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
:::url is the link to the pdf title is Ireteba Peaks Wilderness author is Bureau of Land Management. ] (]) 22:15, 24 March 2015 (UTC)


For the Arbitration Committee, <span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS; font-variant:caps;">] (])</span> 02:41, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
::Have a look around at the NPS pages for Chaco. Everything I've seen at the NPS site gives no indication that they were taken by anyone but an NPS employee. ] (]) 22:07, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
:Discuss this at: ''']'''
::: I have gleaned several pics from there, but I was hoping to find some pre-excavation ones from the 1800s. ] (]) 22:09, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
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== Happy New Year, Rationalobserver! ==
::::Sometimes using can help find more copies of a photo and more information about it. Just copy the url of the photo into tineye; it will produce a list of hits which you can investigate. ] (]) 22:12, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
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'''Rationalobserver''',<br />Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable ], and thanks for your contributions to Misplaced Pages. ] <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;">] ]</sup> 20:46, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
<br /><br /><br />
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{{-}}


== WikiCup 2016: Game On! ==
::::This ought to help out:


We are about to enter the second week of the 2016 WikiCup. The most recent player to sign up brings the current total to 101 contestants. Signups close on 5 February. If you’re interested, you can join this year's WikiCup ].
*
*
*, by Edgar L. Hewett. Publication of the University of New Mexico and the School of American research. University of New Mexico press


We are aware that in some areas the scoring bot’s numbers are a little bit off (i.e., overly generous) and are working to have that corrected as soon as possible.--] (]) 18:03, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
A renewal check for copyright on the book was done for and . There were renewals for other person named Hewett and one for Edgar Hewett, but not for this book title. He renewed in 1964. Everything in the book is PD because of copyright not renewed. I would copy and paste the check given here if you use any photos from it as proof the book wasn't renewed. ] (]) 22:46, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
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: That's great; thanks for helping me out! ] (]) 22:48, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
: {{u|We hope}}, I've been trying to find a digital copy of ''The Significance of the Dated Prehistory of Chetro Ketl, Chaco Canyon, New Mexico'' (1934) by Florence M. Hawley, so I don't have to purchase the rare and expensive report. Can you locate this one too? ] (]) 22:55, 24 March 2015 (UTC)


== WikiCup 2016: Game On! ==
::This one didn't turn up at HathiTrust but there are others with text and photos. After I lest these for you, I'll try for this book in other spots.


We are about to enter the second week of the 2016 WikiCup. The most recent player to sign up brings the current total to 101 contestants. Signups close on 5 February. If you’re interested, you can join this year's WikiCup ].
*
* Globe, Ariz., Priv. print. for Gila pueblo, 1945.


We are aware that in some areas the scoring bot’s numbers are a little bit off (i.e., overly generous) and are working to have that corrected as soon as possible.--] (]) 18:07, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
*A renewal search was done in books for the years and . There were no renewals for the Author Harold S. Gladwin. The entire book is in the public domain.
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== WikiCup 2015 March newsletter ==
*-this is what turned up at HathiTrust when I searched for your title. Lots of newer information published by the Department of the Interior in the list and there are many photos. These would be PD because they were prepared by a government employee in this course of duty. Will see who might have a copy of your book. ] (]) 23:27, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
:: This is just wonderful! I've spent more than $100 this month on Chaco sources, and I'm not complaining because I ''love'' books, but it's fantastic to find some digital ones in PD! Hope you don't mind scrounging for the Hawley source, but it would save me $55 if I could find a free version. ] (]) 23:32, 24 March 2015 (UTC)


]
:: at the New York State Library--it downloads as a PDF and is listed as being PD. :) ] (]) 23:31, 24 March 2015 (UTC)


That's it, the first round is done, sign-ups are closed and we're into round 2. Forty-seven competitors move into this round (a bit shy of the expected 64), and we are roughly broken into eight groups of six. The top two of each group will go through to round 3, and then the top scoring 16 "wildcards" across all groups.
:::I used to find the copy--it was just luck that there was one online. WorldCat can be useful even if there's no online copy because it tells you where copies can be found. You can either go to a library that has the book or it gives you enough information to work out a loan through your local library. ] (]) 23:35, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
:::: That Hawley source is fantastic, I can't wait to read it! Since the report is PD, can I adapt or copy her drawings for use in articles? ] (]) 23:46, 24 March 2015 (UTC)


Twenty-two Good Articles were submitted, including three by {{Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/Participant7|Cyclonebiskit}}, and two each by {{Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/Participant7|MPJ-DK}}, {{Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/Participant7|Hurricanehink}}, {{Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/Participant7|12george1}}, and {{Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/Participant7|Cas Liber}}. Twenty-one Featured Pictures were claimed, including 17 by {{Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/Participant7|Adam Cuerden}} (the Round 1 high scorer). Thirty-one contestants saw their DYKs appear on the main page, with a commanding lead (28) by {{Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/Participant7|Cwmhiraeth}}. Twenty-nine participants conducted GA reviews with {{Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/Participant7|J Milburn}} completing nine.
:::::You should be able to just copy everything that's in the book. Give me a minute to run a copyright renewal check on the author and I'll list the findings here--everything should be able to go as copyright not renewed. ] (]) 23:59, 24 March 2015 (UTC)


If you are concerned that your nomination will not receive the necessary reviews, please list it on ]. Questions are welcome on ], and the judges are reachable on their talk pages or by email. If you wish to start or stop receiving this newsletter, please feel free to add or remove yourself from ]. Thanks to everyone for participating, and good luck to those moving into round 2. {{User4|Sturmvogel 66}}, {{User4|Figureskatingfan}}, and {{user4|Godot13}} --] (]) 02:38, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
::::::A renewal search was done in books for the years and . There were renewals for others with the surname of Hawley but none for Florence M. Hawley. There were also no renewals during this time frame for Florence Ellis (Hawley's married name). There's no evidence of the copyright being renewed for this book. ] (]) 00:06, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
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::::::: She might have renewed it in her married name – Ellis. ] (]) 00:54, 25 March 2015 (UTC)


== WikiCup 2016 March newsletter (update) ==
==Disambiguation link notification for March 24==


Along with getting the year wrong in the newsletter that went out earlier this week, we did not mention (as the bot did not report) that {{Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/Participant7|Cas Liber}} claimed the first Featured Article ] of the 2016 Wikicup. {{User4|Sturmvogel 66}}, {{User4|Figureskatingfan}}, and {{user4|Godot13}}.--] (]) 16:05, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Misplaced Pages appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited ], you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page ] (&nbsp;|&nbsp;). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. <small>Read the ]{{*}} Join us at the ].</small>
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== Email ==
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I'm not a fan of the YGM template, so here is the prose version: Have sent you an email. -- ] (]) 09:27, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
== Thank You! ==

Am always glad to help when I can. Just started using HathiTrust recently-tracked down a copy of John Warne Gates' bio there. Still continue to be surprised at the wealth of material they have in the way of both books and periodicals. The site has helped with many articles in the short time I've been using it. ] (]) 23:57, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

== Please comment on ] ==

The ] is asking for participation in ]. <!-- Template:FRS message --> <!-- FRS id 23713 --> ] (]) 00:03, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

== Re: copyright tags ==

this is <nowiki>{{PD-US-not renewed}}</nowiki>. Cite the New York State Library link as your source, give the title of the book and author, as well as publisher and year of publication plus the page you took the drawing from. Then copy the copyright search I did last night from above as proof there was a search for renewal and none was found. (The links are to the UPenn copyright books so they can be checked if anyone wants to.) Do the same thing for any other images you might want to use from the book. ] (]) 19:27, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
: How does this look (])? ] (]) 19:36, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
::This is 100% right! :-) ] (]) 19:39, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
::: Thanks again for all your help! ] (]) 19:40, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

== The Signpost – Volume 11, Issue 12 – 25 March 2015 ==

<div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2015-03-25}} </div><!--Volume 11, Issue 12--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 03:25, 27 March 2015 (UTC) </div></div>
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== Re: book ==

; it's from 1856 so this would be <nowiki>{{PD-US}}</nowiki>. No need to do a copyright search at all as it's well over 100 years old. Just give a link to the book and to the "about the book" Google link so anyone who might want to check can see that it's from 1856. Anything you find (and like) in it can be used as it went into the PD circa 1923! :) ] (]) 21:49, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
: That's great, but how do I find a version to download? Or should I just do a screenshot of it? ] (]) 21:54, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
::Let me see if HathiTrust has a copy (most often they do). The entire book can be downloaded at Google but in PDF form, so you'd need to get the copy from that. HathiTrust offers the option of downloading the entire book or just the page or pages you want as PDFs. Hang on a second and I'll look. ] (]) 21:57, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
::: I just did a cut from that preview screen, which yielded a that you can save from! ] (]) 22:00, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
::::This is great news because previously with Google, it was "all or nothing" on the free books! You needed to download the entire book as a PDF. Internet Archive and HathiTrust were offering single pages if desired. The copy of the book at IA is from the same library as Google's but something has gone wrong with the reader at IA--when you turn pages, it keeps blinking and some pages are just blank. ] (]) 22:18, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
::::: I just sort of stumbled on that, but it's pretty handy! ] (]) 22:26, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
::::: Does this look right: ]? Is it possible to determine the author? ] (]) 22:33, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Take a look at the illustration on -this one is Balduin Möllhausen and I think he did all the color plates in this book. The beginning of the book is dated . ] traveled with Whipple at the time; indicates this was Whipple's journey. ] (]) 23:05, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
: I thought so! Thanks for double checking that! ] (]) 23:08, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

== Please comment on ] ==

The ] is asking for participation in ]. <!-- Template:FRS message --> <!-- FRS id 23882 --> ] (]) 00:04, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

== Photos ==

It looks like the library really doesn't care to have their photos used for anything other than personal or scholarly use. I grabbed a photo from the list at random:

*Publication Rights Images in this collection are for scholarly research; please review the Huntington Library's copyright information."

*

There's a similar situation with railroad photos from ]. Upon his death in 1970, all of his photos were donated to the Denver Public Library who now restricts them. I know that the rule re: his DPL photos has been that they must be considered non free use because the library doesn't want them used for commercial purposes. When something is really in the PD, it can be used for any purpose you like--there can be no "strings" or restrictions on where one can or can't use the photo. I would be dubious about this since the library did not simply say the photos are available to everyone for any purpose or license them with Creative Commons licenses to reflect that. There are CC licenses that restrict commercial use, and we have to consider those to be non-free. ] (]) 19:26, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

== Back story on Irataba which might be of interest ==

Charles D. Poston was the Indian agent for the territory where Irataba lived and told the following stories about him. The John Moss mentioned was shown where to find a gold mine in El Dorado canyon by Irataba. Moss was able to sell the mine and made thousands of dollars from the sale. Moss wanted to show his appreciation to Irataba and asked Poston's permission to take him East and show him a fine time. (This looks to be how he went to Washington and New York).

While Irataba was away with Moss, Poston asked Moss to have a photo taken of Irataba by a good photographer and send it to Poston. When the photo arrived, Poston displayed it in the window of the Indian office, thinking Irataba's people would be happy to see it. However, the reverse happened-people became sad upon seeing the photo. Poston didn't know what was wrong until someone explained that it was thought that the Americans killed Irataba while was away and the photo was his ghost.

When Irataba arrived home, he asked Poston for permission to make a public speech, to which Poston agreed. Irataba spoke to his people for about 2 hours; someone translated the speech and it developed that after his photo was seen, people believed he was dead and divided up his wives and property. Only one wife with a small son remained and she had returned to her people. Poston sent messengers to bring the wife and child back; Irataba is said to have lived the rest of his life with the remaining wife and young son.

*
*

The tags for these refs (that need to be added) are:

<nowiki>|via = ]}} {{Open access}}</ref></nowiki>

] (]) 19:44, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
: Wow, if this is accurate and reliable it's great stuff, but who is the author of the first story, and who is W.W. Jermaine? ] (]) 19:51, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

::W. W. Jermaine is the person who wrote the story for the ''Minneapolis Tribune''. Let me look around a bit more as I've seen other accounts of what Poston told in different newspapers and different years. The ''Minneapolis Tribune'' story ran when Poston died in 1902--the other circa 1891. I might be able to get an author's name from another newspaper re: the 1891 account. ] (]) 20:09, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

* of the 1902 story written by H. C. Stevens of the ''Oshkosh Daily Northwestern''.

There are other copies of the uncredited story--. The man who was relating the story is ]. The uncredited stories are all exactly the same and appear in different newspapers. I went through the books Poston wrote (the ones online) but found nothing in them re: his contact with Irataba. ] (]) 21:34, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
: Thanks for your efforts. I'm leaning towards unreliable at this point. Do you think that's fair? ] (]) 21:37, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

::This is entirely up to you, but you might want to consider adding it as a footnote due to that. ] (]) 21:58, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
::: The fact that Poston didn't include any of this in his published works makes me wonder about the provenance. He certainly knew Irataba well, and this would be great to include if it can be verified, but I wonder why Devereux, Woodward, and Sherer missed this; indeed, everyone missed this until 1902, a full 28 years after Irataba died. What do you think, {{u|Dr. Blofeld}} and {{u|Simon Burchell}}? ] (]) 19:02, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
::::I would say certainly worth mentioning that he ''claimed'' that. Perhaps {{u|Maunus}} could offer an opinion.♦ ] 19:05, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
:::::I would put in something along the lines that "an uncredited story current in a number of newspapers in (year) related that..." It is published, so it can be used with caution, just don't relate it as The Truth. All the best, ] (]) 19:18, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
::::::I agree with Simon, include it but without passing it as true.] · ] 22:29, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
::::::: But how can I relate sketchy details from Poston via W. W. Jermaine without mentioning either of them by name and still not pass this off as truth? This would require an "according to", and the way the FAC is going now I won't be adding any of those. ] (]) 20:23, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::I think you are overreacting/misreacting to some of those comments. Saying that there is too many of something doesnt mean you have to remove all of them, or that rmeoving all of them is better. I would write something along the lines, of "Poston later told a friend an anecdote about the Mohave's reaction to seeing a photo of Irataba while he was away. According to Poston, the Mohave thought that the photographic likeness meant that Irataba had been killed by the Whites, and they proceeded to divide his goods and wives between them. When Irataba arrived and found his possessions and family gone, Poston had to help him get back one of his wives who had left to live with her Hualapai relatives."] · ] 21:22, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::: Wouldn't it have to be something like "According to journalist W. W. Jermaine, writing in blah blah blah, Poston said ..."? Anyway, I'm just burned out on the back and forth with 99% criticisms and .0000001 encouragement. I'm not in the mood to add this, as I keep getting blamed for everything that's not 100% perfect in the article. If you would be willing to add it that would be great, but I'm just not up to it today. Plus, my instinct says it's not reliable, and it's most likely made up. If Irataba had wives he would have likely had a son to succeed him, but he was succeeded by his nephew, which means he had no male heir despite the source saying he had a son. Both Woodward and Deveroux missed this, which is unlikely don't you think? ] (]) 21:32, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::: Also, the stuff about the picture and ghosts seems dubious and culturally insensitive. It makes them sound like idiots that can't tell a picture in a window from a spirit. And where is the picture of him in his regalia, because the image has not been found by any of us who have been scrounging for weeks? ] (]) 21:39, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

FWIW, I think this is the photo in question . at the . ] (]) 14:00, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
: That sure looks like him alright, and it's a cool picture, but I still have an issue with presenting the story that the Mohave thought the picture was his ghost. I think we would need more than one source for that, and in light of some reviewer concerns about tone, I see this as exacerbating the issue. Also, I still wonder why a man with sons was succeeded by his nephew, which doesn't make sense. E.g., Homoseh quahote was succeeded by his son, then his grandson. ] (]) 15:25, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

::I can't tell you the answers for that. If we look at people in other times, producing a photo of someone in Salem during Colonial days, would probably have sent you to the stake, as it would have been something not understood by those people in that time. They might have been able to work the "stealing of spirits" (the photo) into your witchery conviction. Re: succession, again-other cultures. The Aga Khan chose his eldest gransdon to succeed him rather than his playboy son, Ali, who technically was next in line to the throne. ] (]) 15:34, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
::: Those are good points, but in light of at least one reviewer's insistence on avoiding that type of stuff (we can't even say "chief" in the article) I am reluctant to add this, as it would just cause another exhausting debate. Having said that, if anyone else adds it I won't object or revert, but I'm not comfortable adding this, so I won't. I hope that's acceptable. ] (]) 15:38, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
::: The picture is cool though, but are we certain that it's Irataba? ] (]) 15:40, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
::::Everything I know about the photo is from the Smithsonian. ] (]) 15:52, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
::::: It looks legit to me. Can we add it to commons? ] (]) 15:57, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

The down side to this is here: This looks like the rider Denver Public Library has placed on the Otto Perry railroad photos. It's also similar to a CC "non-commercial" license, where you're able to do anything with the image but use it commercially, if desired. Our rules only allow "non commercial" photos to be used as non-free images and those can't go to Commons. ] (]) 16:04, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
: That's unfortunate. Thanks for looking into it, and thanks for helping out with the FAC image review. ] (]) 16:06, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

== Something else that might be of interest ==

The book is ''The Blue Tattoo'' by Margot Miffin (University of Nebraska Press-2009}. This claims to be the first scholarly bio of Olive Oatman.
*
In it, it's claimed that the Oatman girls were not slaves to the Mojave and that when Olive learned Irataba was in New York, she asked to meet with him, as she was not unhappy while living with the Mojave. It's also said that the chin tattoo was not that of a slave.
* ] (]) 17:45, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
: Thanks for doing so much great research for Dr. B and I. We appreciate it! ] (]) 17:47, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

:: Can you use this too? :-) ] (]) 18:05, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
::: Looks good. I'll see if there is anything worth including. While you're here, I'd like to invite you to comment at ]. If you are too busy or disinterested in FAC reviews I'll understand, but I'd love to get your input there. ] (]) 18:10, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
::::Let me try to get over there a little later on today/tonight. ] (]) 19:07, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
::::: Look at the wonderful addition I made using the ''Parker Pioneer'' source ()! Thanks for that! ] (]) 21:39, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
] If you're interested in this, I can take it to the Graphics Lab photo workshop for some restoration. ] (]) 20:20, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
: I'm definitely interested! That's a great find! ] (]) 20:22, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
: It goes really well in the next to ! ] (]) 20:36, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
::OK-request is :) ] (]) 20:58, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
::: You're the best! Thanks! Did you happen to come across anywhere? I believe it's one of Balduin Möllhausen's drawings engraved by one T. Sinclair. ] (]) 21:03, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
::::Yes, I've seen it before but it might take me a bit of time to find it again. I think this was in one of the Army reports from the travels he made. Let me see what I can do about getting hold of an unwatermarked copy. ] (]) 21:16, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

That's great because they're giving him credit for what he did even now! ] Here's your illustration. It was in the US War Department-Whipple book. The Google scan is about the best for illustrations but it looks as though the Lyon (France) Public Library may have combined more than one report in their scan; and so you simply need to start at the beginning and scroll your way until you find what you're looking for. :) ] (]) 22:12, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
: Thanks, We hope! I hope one day I can repay ''some'' of your endless generosity! 22:16, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
::You might want to take a look through the old newspapers . There's 110 hits for Irataba. I was trying to find the source of the Fort Mojave file and ran into it. We may need to drop it; it was taken from a 1995 book which credited the Arizona State Library with the image. The problem is that it's not online, thus we have no date or creator. ] (]) 22:35, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

::: pp 38-42. Publisher W.C. and F.P. Church, 1870 A description of Irataba in his later years--his hair remained dark and he walked with a walking stick because of an old wound. ] (]) 23:32, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

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==Irataba's gift==
I just got Hinton's Irataba's gift today and it turns out to be extremely interesting and useful. It turns out that 1. in the second half of the 19th century the Mohave language underwent a sound change that changed s to {{IPA|}} (th as in thing) and ʂ (sh as in shirt) to s (i.e. sing became thing, and shirt became sirt). 2. I 1850 J. W. Powell collected a Mohave wordlist. In 1863 on his visit to DC a linguist asked Irataba to help him make a wordlist of Mohave words. In Irataba's wordlist the words differ from the pronunciation given in Powell's list - showing that Irataba in his pronunciation had almost completed the sound shift. 3. By the late 1870s all Mohaves seem to have used the new pronunciation that was first recorded for Irataba. This leads Hinton to suggest that apart from providing the data from which we can see the sound change in progress, Irataba personally had two effects in causing the spread of the sound change. First, his role in creating the reservation meant that traditional barriers between Mohave dialects were disrupted as speakers of all the dialects had to live together on the reservation. This caused dialect leveling, through which all the dialects became more similar. Secondly, because Irataba was a well respected leader, other Mohaves may have considered his way of speaking (and the social group who used it, maybe all of the Huttoh Pah spoke like this) to be the most prestigious, and hence emulated it causing the change to spread into all the dialects of Mohave spoken on the reservation. Interesting, no?] · ] 21:26, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
: That's really interesting! What an influential person he was! Can I assume that you will be integrating this into the article? ] (]) 21:32, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
::I wonder where it would fit?] · ] 21:59, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
::: It would make a wonderful addition to . ] (]) 22:02, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
::: With this, we could rename the section ''Influence and legacy''. ] (]) 22:15, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

*Here is another source that looks great. Also you should read Clifton Kroeber's the Mohave as nationalist, it gives a very different account of Yara tavs later years describing him primarily as a peacemaker.] · ] 17:17, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
:: I have a print copy of that Kroeber book, and it is great, but a little short on details. It is cited to a few times in the article though. I'll check out Clifton's piece. Nice work fleshing out the reservation details, BTW. I ''really'' appreciate your help! ] (]) 17:21, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
:::Ah, I see it is already used. I think it is very rich in details. And eye-witness details at that. We can get a lot more out of that imo.] · ] 17:23, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
:::: I misstated that; what I meant was I didn't see too many ''usable'' details, as there is a lot of text attributed to him in quotes that we really couldn't use. Also, about six weeks ago Victoria told me that the source was unreliable for confirming details about the Rose–Baley Party (), so I assumed that would hold true for other things. I'm not sure that was a good idea to attribute a direct quote to Irataba via Kroeber (). ] (]) 17:36, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

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Retired This user is no longer active on Misplaced Pages.

Now that Sarah is trying to get me topic banned from GAN and FAC () (and throwing around yet another empty socking allegation), I've decided that the best solution here is for me to retire. The clique that wants me gone won't ever stop, and nobody will ever have the courage to stop them. I'm deeply sad for Misplaced Pages, but this isn't my fight. Good luck! RO 17:07, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

One way interaction ban

If you refer, anywhere, directly or indirectly, to Godot13, you will be blocked indefinitely, with talk page access removed. Retire if you want to retire, stay if you want to stay (if the ANI thread allows you to), but you're finished talking about Godot13. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:42, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

The very basis of the An/I is that I made baseless claims and assumptions, and now you are making it impossible for me to address that accusation. RO 19:44, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
If you want to think about it that way, that's OK with me. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:44, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
He lied about me though, and you are making it impossible for me to address his accusations. RO 19:45, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
  • 28bytes, Floq just made it impossible for me to defend myself against the ongoing An/I. RO 19:46, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
  • RO: it's worth remembering that the Wikicup is pretty much just an on-wiki contest for imaginary points; the purpose of the Wikicup to begin with is just to result in Misplaced Pages having better content, there's no actual award. It's not something worth stressing over, and even if you disagree with the contest's rules, well, it's still a contest for imaginary points ;). It also doesn't stop you from participating in the AN/I thread as a whole. Kevin Gorman (talk) 19:53, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
This isn't really about the Wikicup, which I don't care about. There were lies used to form the basis of that An/I, and now they cannot be addressed. I was not wrong and my assumptions were not unfounded or baseless, so the very title of that report is a lie. Doesn't that matter? RO 19:55, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
No, seriously, the post above is an indirect mention. Email Kevin (if he's willing) if you want to follow this line of discussion. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:11, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

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One of Adam Cuerden’s several quality restorations during round 1

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