| Revision as of 16:03, 19 April 2015 editSamuelDay1 (talk | contribs)288 edits Undid revision 657189525 by 79.109.203.252 (talk) kaz evading block← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 10:29, 23 November 2023 edit undoKammerer55 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users2,213 editsm promoted to top-importance for Ukraine as one of the three ethnicities officially recognized as native ones |
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==Shapshal's Theories== |
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The article states, with no attribution, "Shapshal's doctrine is still a topic of critical research and public debate." This is pretty much not true. Most academic studies of Karaite Jews regard his theories as bunkum, being unsupported by either documents or genetic evidence. Does anyone have a source of his theories being treated as legitimate in any academic sphere?] (]) 05:04, 29 July 2020 (UTC) |
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== Re-Write == |
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== Genetics == |
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There is a paragraph in the text that reads as follows: |
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The article needs a complete re-write. The lead in itself is very problematic. No references. Since the talk and edit histories expose a great deal of politics concerning this article (which is now polluting the internet whenever one searches for info on Crimean Karaites, so now I'm here) I suggest it be stripped down to bare bones and not a single line be inserted without reference to the source of the opinion. For the lead something based around the following from ''';Tiryaki, Victor''' & Mireyev, Vadim (2006) ''Complex of Karaite Kenassas in Eupatoria and Other Kenassas Around the World'': |
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:Leon Kull and Kevin Alan Brook led the first scientific study of Crimean Karaites using genetic testing of both Y chromosomal DNA and mitochondrial DNA and the results showed that Crimean Karaites are indeed partially of Middle Eastern origin and closely related to other Jewish communities (], ] and ]), while finding that the Crimean Karaites are genetically unrelated to non-Jewish Turkic-speaking peoples of the region.<ref>Kevin Alan Brook, Leon Kull, and Adam J. Levin, "The Genetic Signatures of East European Karaites," August 28, 2013, </ref><ref>Kevin Alan Brook, "The Genetics of Crimean Karaites," ''Karadeniz Araştırmaları'' №42 (Summer 2014): pp. 69–84, </ref> |
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:"Crimean Karaites are one of the smallest Turkic nations in the world. In these days only several Hundreds of them still live in Crimea, their historical homeland, and there are about 1100 Karaite people in Ukraine in the whole." (p.2) |
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<references/> |
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:"Up to the end of the 18th century, Juft-Qale was the largest administrative, cultural, and religious center of the Crimean Karaites." (p.4) |
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An editor tried to add the following: |
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:"Loss of native language gives little chance for the ethnic future of the Crimean Karaites as a genuine nation. However, even now the center of spiritual ans cultural life of the Crimean Karaites remains a complex of Kenassas in Eupatoria." (p.5) |
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:<nowiki>{{clarify|reason=the Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups should be mentioned + mixing with other Jewish groups due to their religion might explain the genetic similarities with other Jewish groups - this possibility is totally ignored.|date=March 2020}}</nowiki> |
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Please do join in with suggestions. ] (]) 10:01, 27 January 2014 (UTC) |
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This comment is raising an alternative hypothesis not asking for clarification, so it has been moved here. Unless there is a reliable source for this comment, it cannot be put into the text of the article.<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:10pt;color:#000000">] ]</span> 09:51, 28 March 2020 (UTC) |
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:Could you be more specific? What is problematic in the lead for your opinion? According the lead, Karaim(like Tiryaki) define themselves '''originally centered in Crimea'''; and derived from '''Turkic-speaking''' Karaites. As you may see your cite renews nothing, but it is possible to add it as additional reference. Why do you want to rewrite completely? |
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:By the way the common opinion that the native language and culture is best preserved not in Eupatoria but in ] that mentioned in the article about ] and ] What would you like to add. ? ] (]) 23:37, 5 February 2014 (UTC) |
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"Could you be more specific?" Yes, there is not a single reference mentioning "Crimean Karaites". And who is "Tiryaki"? Could you provide an English language reference please? Also the grammar is terrible throughout the article. It clearly has not been written by a native English speaker. I see you are the principle editor for the past year or so. Your contributions are welcome but there is much about wiki style you could learn. Finally, I am sorry, in your last question above your English grammar is not very easily comprehensible so I can not answer it. I gather you are trying to make some point about common opinion and Trakai and Crimean Karaites, but again I think it would really help if you could bring an English language reference to illustrate what you are trying to say. Let's go from there. ] (]) 11:38, 6 February 2014 (UTC) |
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:: I think that the "Crimean Karaites" name mislead you. You are not the first. The intention is to Karaims including the Lithuanian Karaims -see the lead. I did not choose the article name.It is the misleading but common name in English for this ethnic group as decided in this talk(see archived versions), due to the reasons explained in the article lead. There are 46 references in this article '''including many English sources'''-e.g |
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:: Tiryaki was cited by you not by me and he is a leader of Eupatorian Karaims see . |
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::My English realy is far from to be perfect. But 99% sources about the Karaims are not in English. Actually the modern Karaims Mother language is not Karaims but Russian- even in Trakai. So the understanding of Russian language for this article contributions is as important as English. You invited to use automatic tools, to ask questions and I will try to find a proper English source when it possible. And of course, the improvement of the article language is very very important and I really need help here. Your conribution is very invited.] (]) 12:24, 6 February 2014 (UTC) |
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If the article name is misleading, then it needs to e re-named even if it is common, there are rules about misleading names on Misplaced Pages. If it is about Karaims in general rather than Crimean Karaims specifically then it should be re-named simply as Karaims. Or you should start a second article about Karaims and if '''you can prove''' that Crimean Karaites are indeed a branch of Karaims rather than Karaite Jews, then you can have this article merged into a section on the new article (but be prepared that it might better be merged into an article about Karaite Jews in general rather than an article about your "Karaims". Are Crimean Karaites really notable enough to deserve such a long article of their own? These are all important Questions which need to be considered in order to get this article ship-shape. Either way, without the proper name in the first instance, writing an appropriately referenced intro would be problematic. Whatever sources are used for the intro must use the same name that the article uses. But I see there is a lock on the page so it can not be re-named "Karaims", therefore the intro must be about Crimean Karaites and not Karaims in general. Unless you would like to approach an administrator to unlock the page? As it stands right now though, you are telling me that the article you are writing is about a slightly broader topic than the name implies, and this is not the way things should be on[REDACTED] or in any encyclopaedic entry. However the fact the page has been locked indicates that there has been some controversy about the name and your opinion seems to have been on the losing side. |
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Thank you for the very important info about Tiryaki, unfortunately Misplaced Pages can not be used as a source. It would be good to find something in English about him if you can as he would deserve a mention in the article. |
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It is important to use as many English sources as possible on English wiki and restrict the number of foreign language sources. This is because not many people can read other languages and can not verify the sources for themselves and it can lead to edit wars. |
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I would like to contribute to the article, but it would need to be completely re-written and is in a totally different style. My style would be to put references in every paragraph. And if the article is called Crimean Karaites, then these references must be restricted specifically to be about Crimean Karaites. |
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What would you like to move things forward do now? Start a new petition to rename the page (you might lose again)? Or trim it down? ] (]) 10:02, 7 February 2014 (UTC) |
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::To prevent mislead I suggest you to learn the subject/to read the article. You can read there that their origin is a matter of great controversy. The[REDACTED] is not a place to prove controversaries, but to present all opinions. Karaims is also problematic name.Please look at its ] to learn the issue. Russian word "Karaim" means "Karaite"(as in Hebrew). Claiming for their Crimean origin and in order to '''distance themselves from being identified as Karaite Jews''',they call themselves караимы-тюрки,or крымские караимы(Karaite Turks or Crimean Karaites). While first name claiming their Turks origin does not reflect the other POVs, it was decided after long debates to use the second name. The lead explains the matter to minimize mislead. ] (]) 15:11, 7 February 2014 (UTC) |
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== Karaites-Karaylar in Turkey == |
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What about karaites in Turkey? there is almost nothing about them about their history and living places,for example like araköy --] (]) 15:45, 10 December 2014 (UTC) |
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The article states, with no attribution, "Shapshal's doctrine is still a topic of critical research and public debate." This is pretty much not true. Most academic studies of Karaite Jews regard his theories as bunkum, being unsupported by either documents or genetic evidence. Does anyone have a source of his theories being treated as legitimate in any academic sphere?2605:6000:F510:8F00:1C6E:A1D0:55C8:1EEE (talk) 05:04, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
This comment is raising an alternative hypothesis not asking for clarification, so it has been moved here. Unless there is a reliable source for this comment, it cannot be put into the text of the article. Toddy1 (talk) 09:51, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
