Talk:Soka Gakkai: Difference between revisions

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	== ~~Gymnastic formations V2~~ ==		== Flag ==

			The flag shown is the wrong flag.
	The use of a photo of a ] as an example of "peace activities" is rather jarring to me. I am aware that North Korea advertises their mass gymnastics as messages of peace, but I am not aware of any other group that does to. Is this really SGI practice? If so I feel like it should be mentioned in the text of the article. Otherwise the photo is not ] and has no pedagogical value. ] ] 07:41, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
			This: ] Is the proper flag.
	:The gymnastic formation is one of the cultural performance that is used by SGI to promote "peace activities". The other cultural performance used by SGI to promote peace activities are participating in the countries' national day parade performances, performing concert, cultural dance performance and many other cultural performances to celebrate diversities.
			I can't make the edit because it locked
	:Below is the link for your references.
	:http://www.academia.edu/5285382/The_nationalization_of_religion_Cultural_performances_and_the_youth_of_Soka_Singapore
	:You can find the relevance information from the research paper.
	:] (]) 08:05, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
	::OK, I have included that paper. ] ] 08:19, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

			== Semi-protected edit request on 10 June 2024 ==
	Since Catflap08 had post a notice in the Reliable Source noticeboard and wanted to threatened with a topic ban again in future, I feel the need to resurrect this discussion started by Shii. When I post the link in the talk page last year, there is not much objection towards the research paper and it is Shii who put it into the main article. ] (]) 14:40, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

			{{edit semi-protected\|Soka Gakkai\|answered=yes}}
	: And whats your problem now? I got a third opinion thats all.--] (]) 14:46, 5 February 2015 (UTC) This was my request --] (]) 18:29, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
			Third paragraph, last line:
			“After the war, it's expansion was led by its former third president Daisaku Ikeda.”

			Change the it’s -> its ] (]) 00:13, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
	Just as baffling is a picture of a Nichiren Shoshu temple in the Soka Gakkai entry. What is the purpose of ''that''? --] (]) 20:45, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
			:{{Done}} ] (]) 00:41, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

			== Finance, school network, political party ==
	== Change to Proselytizing sub section ==

			Hello @]
	Catflap08: in a day or two I'll have a B&P re-write in the Sandbox for one and all to work on together.

			You seem not aware that SG has a school network, founded a political party, and has a consequent financial power. I will re-publish those informations in the introduction. If it lacks sources, please say it and don't delete everything without discussing here, thanks. ] (]) 18:28, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
	Meanwhile, Shi: I intend to change the wording of the Proselytizing sun section. I want to include whaqt the reference to Montgomery actually says, to wit: "shakubuku" is not "forced conversion", and the past aggressive SG behavior was controversial, but common to new religions in Japan, and not much different than methods used by some religions in the West. The other footnote in that section is to "The OC Register" - no specific issue, article or page mentioned - and says merely that the SG still uses the word "shakubuku", which doesn't strike me as particularly edifying information anyway. So I want to remove that sentence.--] (]) 16:23, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
	:I think we should use the literal translation of "shakubuku" as opposed to the many metaphorical translations that have come into being. ] ] 20:12, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

			:See ]. Add sources, or don't add it.
	:{{user\|Daveler16}} There is no need for a B&P rewrite, but of course you are free to sandbox all you like. That doesn't mean anyone is going to join you.--]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 23:42, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
			:And, you stil haven't addressed the COI issue. If you have a COI you shouldn't be making substantive changes to the article at all, especially unsourced ones.
			:I gave you a block warning. Ignore it if you don't mind the consequences. Consider this a final warning. ~] <small>(])</small> 20:04, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
			::Regardless of the ]ership issues and lack of ]s, Raoul is small potatoes compared to the cadre (3+) of self-admitted SGI members who consistently edit the page. Actually, I don't even know if ] is applicable here, seems like Raoul just has a bone to pick with SGI (]). It's important to note that the person who raised the COI issue with Raoul in the first place is an SGI member who is concerned with editors "denigrating" the SGI. ]] 06:23, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::Raoul has repeatedly avoided answering any question about COI. I have tagged the article accordingly for now. ~] <small>(])</small> 00:50, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::Dear Anachronist,
			::::I did not avoid anything. ] : not an issue for me. It's kinda funny you focus on my edits and not on the laudatory and promotional paragraphs that have been added to this page. Also, this page quotes a lot of primary sources, and we've not been hearing from you about that. ] (]) 03:12, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Not an issue? Are you associated in any way with Sokka Gakkai? I am asking you directly. You have avoided addressing this on your talk page multiple times. ~] <small>(])</small> 05:15, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

			== Edit warring and such ==
	Yes, it does need a re-write, as most editors here have said at one time or another. There will be one available for perusal in a day or two. Maybe three.--] (]) 01:19, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

			{{Ping\|Kelvintjy}} The page you keep reverting was built by multiple editors which you on the 13th of August, hence why you keep having your edits reverted The ] is not debatable. Read ] and ]. ]] 06:20, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
	That was me, last comment - evidently had been signed out. Ubikwit, why don't you wait and see? You might like tyhe changes, or at least might not find mind them. It would be nice if you could help work on improving something rather than reverting those who are trying.

	Shii (misspelled your name last time): ran "shakubuku" through 3 dictionaries. Jisho.org defines it a "preaching down; religious conversion through prayer. Tangorin,com is similar: "preaching down; religious conversion of somebody through prayer" . Went through Lexilogos to find csse.monash.edu.au, which is closest to what I have always thought: "preaching down; breaking down somebody's false beliefs through confrontation (in order to convert them to the right faith)". None of the dictionaries I found mention "forced conversion" or "break and destroy". I wonder if they are accurate - seems odd to me that both SG and NS would use translations that sound aggressive when there are more benign translatins available. What do we think?--] (]) 18:43, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
	:Uhhhh. All three of those dictionaries are just different revisions of ], which is a user-generated source and therefore not RS. ] ] 21:58, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
	::FWIW, the "preaching down" definition is close to what you see in most Japanese dictionaries. The term comes from one of Nichiren's favorite sutra passages. He was involved in many debates with representatives of other sects. The idea is to defeat your opponent in a debate and thereby convert them to the true faith. So it's important that both sides are Buddhists with true or false ideas, and the outcome is that the true side wins. It's a battle of ideas. – ] (]) 23:41, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
	:::You're right, I am seeing something like that in the dictionaries I checked. If this is defined in McLaughlin 2012 or Kisala 2004, let's use their definition. More recent RS with a neutral stance. ] ] 00:54, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

	McLaughlin 2012: "shakubuku might be translated as 'to break and subdue (attachments to inferior teachings)'." That's on p.2 of the pdf version. Kisala says "break and subdue, and it involves the use of a rather fierce polemic in order to get the subject to reject his or her previous beliefs." So I guess "break and subdue" for sure - with the qualifiers that that refers to beliefs?--] (]) 00:41, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
	:That sounds reasonable. ] ] 12:15, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

	Made the changes: The previous sub section Was quite short. Added the definition of "shakubuku" from McLaughlin. The Montgomery source cited ("p. 185-186") included two complex sentences, but only half of each sentence was used. I've included the information in the other half of those sentences - didn't even have to amend the existing footnote. Since the "Orange County Register" reference was useless, I found another source for saying that the word "shukubuku" is still used. Finally, I updated the state of SG proselytizing, so that there is more information than mere mention that some people once found it abrasive.--] (]) 20:23, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
	: Included full quote. --] (]) 22:11, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

	Looks good. I re-added the part that got deleted. --] (]) 23:24, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
	:I'm not sure what the consensus was here (considering "forced conversion" is currently included in the article) but if you were discussing removing "forced conversion", I'd just like to add I think it should definitely stay. What English-Japanese dictionaries define "shakubuku" as isn't necessarily relevant here - what's of more interest is how religious/Japanology scholars has described/translated it in English language.
	:]: "He instilled a militant spirit into the organization by inaugurating an unscrupulous and aggressive method of forced conversion (shaku-buku). To effect conversion", John Weldon: "Shakubuku is the forceful method of conversion, whereas “shoju” is themore moderate approach.", Achilles Gacis: "The way that Nichiren propagated his teachings was through shakubuku, "forced conversion or a way of aggressively conquering evil", Asian Survey (1967) "Shaku- buku is an expression of religious conviction, as well ... In practice, it represents an externally forced conversion upon non-members". (all available on google books, and this is just a handful of the works that use this translation). ] (]) 02:51, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

	== Ramseyer p. 160 ==

	"From the start the Soka Gakkai was more interested in religion providing "personal gain" for adherents." This is in the first paragraph of B&P - in fact, it's about a third of the first paragraph. The reference is "Ramseye, SG Militant Religion on the March, p. 160", with a quote in the footnote.

	The sentiment "From the start the Soka Gakkai was more interested in religion providing "personal gain" for adherents" is not nearly what Ramseyer is expressing on p. 160 where his arguments are nuanced, subtle, complicated. Basically he's questioning whether a religion without absolutes is really a religion.

	Ramseyer says: 1) the aim of Makiguchi's philosophy is to "bring the things which one desires, specifically the happy life, which is the aim of all human life, is the justification for that religion". 2)"Makiguchi is not so much concerned with outlining in objective fashion the nature of value, as he is concerned with showing man the road to true salvation and happiness." 3) This "is true to his Buddhist heritage". 4)"the salvation of man becomes the most important value in this universe; and this salvation is made the only true aim of religion." 5) ''then''(the quote in the footnote) "for Makiguchi, the object of worship is not the Lord, the Ruler, to whom
	absolute loyalty is given, but rather a tool to be used for personal gain." But 6)"Personal advantage as defined by Makiguchi, however, is not a narrow self-interest, but rather something that might be called enlightened self-interest. It is never in conflict with the public good."

	I have no objection to saying "the SG has always been interested in religion providing personal gain", but if we leave it just at that, it kind of mischaracterizes what Ramseyer is saying and perhaps betrays a POV on the part of the editor who extracted that bit and only that bit. I think either we can add Point 6 above; or, we just drop the sentence because these issues are all covered elsewhere.

	(And, btw, goes on to p. 161 betraying an utter lack of understanding the concept of dependent origin. And this whole section seems to be about how Christianity is better - but a lot of what he seems to consider weakness (e.g., "there is no discontinuity between the object of worship and the worshipper") would be a strength to most Buddhists, and certainly to SG members.) --] (]) 02:37, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

	Removed a small paragraph from the "Chanting Nam...." sub section. It wasn't all that informative or necessary.--] (]) 22:38, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

	Therte seemed to be no objections, so I msade a change - included more of what Ramseyer wrote rather than deleting.--] (]) 16:40, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

	The Gohonzon just a tool? Not possessing the Three Virtues? My my, how SGI has deviated from the teachings of the Master Nichiren. ] (]) 03:31, 8 March 2015 (UTC) Mark Rogow 3/7/2015

	== Beliefs and practices ==

	To my taste the beliefs and practices section still lacks one thing – facts. The article is packed yet again with flowery wordings and yet again is written like an advertisement. I guess it is time for the article to get rated again.--] (]) 19:36, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

	It seems to me it's becoming more about what the SG beliefs and practices. Isn't that what it's supposed to be about?--] (]) 15:25, 7 March 2015 (UTC) Also (and maybe more to the point), the references used are the exact same references (to the page number) that were already there - just made complete. If Ramseyer says "SG teaches personal gain" (he doesn't, exactly, but that's a paraphrase) but also says "that means enlightened self interest not in conflict with the social good"; but an editor includes only the first part - isn't that advocacy and selective editing to feed a POV? All that's happened is that the references that were already there (and put there by someone other than me) have been expanded to clarify what the author is saying. Same thing with the Chilson reference in the Mentor sub section. And, if all we want to say about what the SG believes and practices concerning proselytizing is that in the 50s and 60s some people didn't like its method, isn't that also advocating a POV, since there is so much more (and more recent) info available? Nothing that was there has been removed - it's still noted that people were offended, but now there is an explanation of an actual belief of the SG about its practice. That said, please do note that I have removed or re-worded a couple things that seemed to be a little overboard in using an SG POV.--] (]) 18:35, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

	== JTB thing ==

	I'd like to add the JTB scandal in here - where Soka Gakkai asked JTB (of whom they are a major customer) to ask its employees to sign a list they would support Komeito in the previous election. Note that Soka Gakkai are careful to note it wasn't the party but only the religious organization that asked for this. This was broadly covered and heavily criticized in Japanese mainstream media. But where should it go? It seems like there's currently no section for anything non-historic. It's confusing with one headline reading "Ikeda (1960-)" and the next headline being "1969" - why not keep with the "Makiguchi, Toda Ikeda" headlines and make 1969 thing a sub-headline under Ikeda? As it's now, where do I put something that happened in 2014? ] (]) 01:28, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
	:For those who don't know what I'm talking about (just posting the tiniest sliver of all the coverage this has got in Japan): , <small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 01:32, 13 March 2015 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

	== Ongoing Conversation ==

	I had asked Shii to taker a gander at my Sandbox, and now I'm inviting everyone to do so Here: ] Shii said it looked okay, but txhen Ubikwit came into the conversation and said: "Shii may approve, but I don't, and I don't consider the decontextualization to be policy compliant, because SG is a Nichiren-derivative movement. I will consider it disruptive if you post that, and ArbCom is on the horizon if I have to deal with your ] again." To which Shii replied: "Once again there is a strong historicism going on here. We already have a History section in the article that makes SG's origins cl ear." Now you're up to date. I would here mention the dangers of negative advocacy, as of well as that of original research that ignores not only where the sources lead but also the opinions of other editors, both being impediments to a well written, balanced and accurate article. I have retained the historical context - just did not make it the central point of what the Soka Gakkai believes and practices, choosing instead to make what the Soka Gakkai believes and practices to be the central point of the Beliefs and Practices section. BTW, this one is shorter than the current B&P section, and includes the 5 Points a couple of editors have been asking for.--] (]) 17:20, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
	:{{ping\|Daveler16}} I appreciate that you are trying to improve the article, and I see some improvement but the text, especially the opening, is not encyclopedic, in my opinion. It is far to verbose, for one, and makes statements like "it's three founding presidents", which is not only a contradiction in terms, it is not the way the cited source describes them. Toda is described as Makiguchi's "disciple", Makiguchi his "master", with Toda described as "succeeding his master as president". Ikeda suceeded Toda, but Ikeda did not found SG, either. He founded SGI.
	:I do not want to have to go through this type of exercise again, because it is a replay. I suggest that you simply try to expand the current section by adding well-sourced text that does not sound promotional.--]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 10:04, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

	Your point about "the 3 founding presidents" is well taken - that's an SG phrase and not found in independent sources (unless they're quoting SG material). Thanks.--] (]) 16:30, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

	Put in the "5 guidelines" because a couple of people had asked they be included.--] (]) 16:52, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

	:That's good content to add.--]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 18:20, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

	Made the def. of "shakubuku" in the sub section "The Great Shakubuku March" consistent with what was agreed on earlier and is used in the Proselytizing sub section.--] (]) 00:28, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

	Added a couple of sentences on discussion meetings, as they seem a key element of SG practice. --] (]) 16:12, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

	:@]I do believe that your edits all were done in good faith but must say that some sections do now rather read as if they were a SGI brochure. --] (]) 18:30, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

	Catflap08: The thing is, whether you prefer to call the SG and organization or a religio0n, either implies some social activity. The entry had nothing about the SG's social gatherings for its members. We know they propagated, are no longer allowed at the temple, support Komeito, and evidently dance sometimes - but that's about it. Don't you think a few sentences about its primary group religious activity has a place? --] (]) 02:05, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

	== Might be of interest ==

	Subtracting picture captions, graphs, TOC and references - just focusing on the actual writing, here are some word counts of Misplaced Pages articles:
	* Dali Lama 3,281
	* Catholicism 5,471
	* Soka Gakkai 10,424
	* Buddhism 15,107

	* * The Buddhism article has 64 words on the Soka Gakkai. I think maybe the SG article is way too long. Thoughts? --] (]) 16:04, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

	:: Please note that articles dealing with Catholics, Catholicism and Criticism of the Catholic Church are quite numerous. Articles dealing with Criticism of Soka Gakkai for instanced were merged into this one – of which hardly any traces can be found. This is the only article on SG/SGI. When it comes to comparisons I would not compare an article about this group, what some might a call a cultish group or new religion, with a world religion.--] (]) 20:19, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

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Flag

The flag shown is the wrong flag. This: Sanshokuki2 Is the proper flag. I can't make the edit because it locked

Semi-protected edit request on 10 June 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Third paragraph, last line: “After the war, it's expansion was led by its former third president Daisaku Ikeda.”

Change the it’s -> its 2607:1C80:4B:92E4:21AD:F345:EE85:DD0A (talk) 00:13, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Done M.Bitton (talk) 00:41, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Finance, school network, political party

Hello @Anachronist

You seem not aware that SG has a school network, founded a political party, and has a consequent financial power. I will re-publish those informations in the introduction. If it lacks sources, please say it and don't delete everything without discussing here, thanks. Raoul mishima (talk) 18:28, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

See WP:BURDEN. Add sources, or don't add it.

And, you stil haven't addressed the COI issue. If you have a COI you shouldn't be making substantive changes to the article at all, especially unsourced ones.

I gave you a block warning. Ignore it if you don't mind the consequences. Consider this a final warning. ~Anachronist (talk) 20:04, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Regardless of the WP:OWNership issues and lack of WP:RSs, Raoul is small potatoes compared to the cadre (3+) of self-admitted SGI members who consistently edit the page. Actually, I don't even know if WP:COI is applicable here, seems like Raoul just has a bone to pick with SGI (WP:NPOV). It's important to note that the person who raised the COI issue with Raoul in the first place is an SGI member who is concerned with editors "denigrating" the SGI. wound theology ◈ 06:23, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Raoul has repeatedly avoided answering any question about COI. I have tagged the article accordingly for now. ~Anachronist (talk) 00:50, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Dear Anachronist,

I did not avoid anything. COI : not an issue for me. It's kinda funny you focus on my edits and not on the laudatory and promotional paragraphs that have been added to this page. Also, this page quotes a lot of primary sources, and we've not been hearing from you about that. Raoul mishima (talk) 03:12, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Not an issue? Are you associated in any way with Sokka Gakkai? I am asking you directly. You have avoided addressing this on your talk page multiple times. ~Anachronist (talk) 05:15, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Edit warring and such

@Kelvintjy: The page you keep reverting was built by multiple editors which you rolled back on the 13th of August, hence why you keep having your edits reverted by other editors who are uninvolved. The WP:MOS is not debatable. Read MOS:HEADINGS and WP:CITEKILL. wound theology ◈ 06:20, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

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