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==Section entitled "Kombucha Drops - Kombucha Extract - Information"==

] has been merged and redirected to this article, however, the information appears to be copied and pasted verbatim from this webpage: ]. Per ], I am removing that information. ]

== Mention of possibly unrelated deaths do not belong in Lede ==

In , I added an update to the claim of linked deaths. However, I am not convinced this deserves mention in the Lede. It would be different if the deaths were found to be caused by Kombucha drinking. That side effects have been noted seems fitting for the Lede, but 2 deaths with no causal link found after 10 years seems more like a fringe claim, and creates a Lede/article that violates ]. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 22:27, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
:Removing the otherwise well supported dead link seemed premature, per ], as it still supplied enough information to find the article offline. I'm restoring the link, and moving the dead link template inside the ref tags, per ]. ] (]) 04:41, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
:Any mention of the history, especially in such cryptic terms as "remedy for immortality" should be clearly explained with solid sources in the body before it is introduced to the lead of the article, otherwise it is undue and non-neutral. (Isn't poison a remedy for immortality?) ] (]) 04:48, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
::Hi GreyFall, I'm not tremendously interested in working on this article, but it does seem strange to leave all mention of history out of the Lede. Would you go ahead and add something you find appropriate? It doesn't read well to have a one line description, and then to jump right into the dire warnings. The unsubstantiated health claims are unsubstantiated because no trials have been conducted, however the current wording suggests that perhaps they have actually looked for evidence and found none. So this is misleading, and what you reverted was my attempt to fix it. Further, I did not remove the dead link from the article, only the Lede, since the claims sourced to it in the Lede were also covered in the NBC reference. Best, '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 05:04, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
:::Yeah, I have no problem with the removal of the linked-deaths thing (although I suspect that may prompt further discussion as well). I agree it's odd to leave out the history from the article, but I'm also not all that interested in digging deep on this article, and I don't have any sources handy. I don't understand why you didn't include your source? It was a direct quote from something, no? What you added was reasonable, but without a source it was still scuttlebutt and this article already gets a lot of opinion editing and pseudoscientific blogspam and such, so the last thing it needs is more scuttlebutt. "The claims are not supported by scientific evidence" seems like a perfectly accurate way to phrase it. A lack of studies or trials is the same as a lack of support by scientific evidence. This is veering into ] territory, but when we have multiple sources saying that no benefits have been found, it seems reasonable to me. ] (]) 05:16, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
:::Never mind, I see that it's in the NBC puff piece. I'll look it over and expand the history section a little. It's very weak as a source, though. ] (]) 05:19, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
::::Usually if I am citing multiple claims to one source, I will link to it only at the end of all claims, rather than at the end of each one. I'm open to suggestions, though, as this has confused people before. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 06:19, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
::::{{u|Grayfell}} Thanks for expanding the history section in the article, however it was the Lede that seemed to be missing mention of the origins of the drink. It is half definition and half warnings, which doesn't reflect the article contents as it should per ]. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 06:58, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
:::::The NBC source was just too weak to be much use in this case, and I don't think the added content reached the threshold for inclusion in the lead. The bit about etymology (Dr. Kombu) is directly contradicted by other, more academic sources earlier in the article, and the info about its ancient origins is two sentences which are very broad, and are not supported by any other sources. Mentioning when the drink first appeared is a good idea, but there are too many ambiguities and contradictions, and I don't think a date-range should be mentioned in the lead based on this one flawed source. Otherwise saying unambiguously that its 2,000 years old seems like an appeal to tradition. These things should be properly addressed in the body first. ] (]) 19:50, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
::::::Thank you kindly, Grayfell. This has a good bit about the history. If I find some time, I will help with this. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 19:55, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
{{od}}
We should summarize the best sources. The ACS mentions death by kombucha. So we do too. ] (]) 05:43, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
:According to the , Kombucha's "beneficial and/or adverse effects have not been determined scientifically". This is a much more neutral account than the WP article gives. Are there any objections to rephrasing the Lede/article in accordance with the CDC?
:I don't know what ACS source you are referencing, perhaps you could leave a link, Alex? Do you consider it stronger than the CDC? '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 06:19, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
::Have you read this article or are you just lede bombing? We quote the ACS in the body: "Available scientific evidence does not support claims that Kombucha tea promotes good health, prevents any ailments, or works to treat cancer or any other disease. Serious side effects and occasional deaths have been linked with drinking Kombucha tea". ACS is a strong MEDRS source and does not contradict the CDC statement. Do not edit war and be aware this page is subject to discretionary sanctions. ] (]) 06:38, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

:::Chill out, no one is edit warring, Alex. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 06:49, 8 June 2015 (UTC)


::, it references the CDC/FDA article I linked above. An excerpt from ACS:

:::"No studies have been done on humans to support any of the claims made for Kombucha tea. There have, however, been reports of some serious complications '''associated''' with the tea. In April 1995, two women who had been consuming the tea daily for two months were hospitalized with severe acidosis--an abnormal increase of the acid levels in body fluids. Both had high levels of lactic acid upon hospitalization. One woman died of cardiac arrest two days after admission. The second woman’s heart also stopped, but she was stabilized and recovered. The mushrooms used by both women came from the same "parent" mushroom. While '''no direct link''' to Kombucha tea was proven in this case, the FDA has warned consumers to use caution when making and drinking the tea."

:: from the CDC:
:::"The mushrooms used by both women were derived from the same parent mushroom. '''At least 115 additional persons in the town had used or were using mushrooms from the same source as for the two ill women, but no other cases of unexplained acute illness were reported''' among these persons. A review of hospital emergency department records for March 1-April 10 did not detect other cases of unexplained lactic acidosis or other likely cases of tea-associated acute illness.

:::Samples of the mushrooms and samples of the tea consumed by both case-patients were sent to FDA for analysis. Microbiologic analysis of the tea and mushrooms identified several species of yeast and bacteria, including Saccharomyces cerevisiae and Candida valida. '''No known human pathogens or toxin-producing organisms were identified'''. The alcohol content of the tea ranged from 0.7% to 1.3%; no methanol was detected."

::Having seen the ACS document, do editors feel Alexbrn's :
:::"{{tq|Drinking kombucha has been linked, in rare cases, to serious side effects and deaths, and improper preparation can lead to contamination}}."

::is preferable to ?
:::"{{tq|Drinking kombucha has been linked in rare cases to serious side effects and several deaths, '''although no causal link to these deaths has been established'''. Improper preparation can lead to contamination}}."

::Saying Kombucha is linked to death, when no causal or direct link has been established in the 10 years since this case, as opposed to noting "no direct link" is non-neutral and misleading. I'm unclear whether the ACS source meets MEDRS requirements, but Alexbrn would know more about this. The 10 year old source does not seem to adhere to MEDRS. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 06:51, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
:::We say what the sources say, and do not engage in editorializing and OR. Trying to discredit a good MEDRS source with a 20-year-old CDC case report (which even warns in red text at its head it may be outdated) is highly problematic. ] (]) 06:53, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

::::OK. The source you prefer says:
:::::"No studies have been done on humans to support any of the claims made for Kombucha tea. There have, however, been reports of some serious complications '''associated''' with the tea. In April 1995, two women who had been consuming the tea daily for two months were hospitalized with severe acidosis--an abnormal increase of the acid levels in body fluids. Both had high levels of lactic acid upon hospitalization. One woman died of cardiac arrest two days after admission. The second woman’s heart also stopped, but she was stabilized and recovered. The mushrooms used by both women came from the same "parent" mushroom. While '''no direct link''' to Kombucha tea was proven in this case, the FDA has warned consumers to use caution when making and drinking the tea."

::::And you want to summarize this as:
:::::"Drinking kombucha has been linked, in rare cases, to serious side effects and deaths".
::::Your source specifically says "no direct link", and you want to quote them as saying "has been linked". I see this as highly problematic and misleading. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 07:02, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
:::::Your comprehension is poor. The "no direct link" phrase applies to one case. As the ACS say in general (in their "Overview"): "Available scientific evidence does not support claims that Kombucha tea promotes good health, prevents any ailments, or works to treat cancer or any other disease. Serious side effects and occasional deaths have been linked with drinking Kombucha tea." We reflect that, which is NPOV. ] (]) 07:12, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
::::::Alex, could we discuss this sans personal attacks? IMO, this is a fringe claim and although you have one good source, does it not strike you as odd that Kombucha death is mentioned literally nowhere else? It is a strong claim to make, and it is possible that the ACS got it wrong given that they are the only source with such a claim. I would prefer to see at least one MEDRS backing this claim. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 07:26, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
:::::::The suggestion that the ACS is a source of 'fringe claims' is nonsensical. And we don't second-guess a source because a contributor thinks they might have 'got it wrong'. ] (]) 07:30, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
:::::::I have made no personal attacks, merely pointed out your error. The ACS are not essaying a fringe claim and I suggest if you want to clarify that you raise it at ]. We have a good source and will not be swapping it out for outdated primaries or your personal suppositions such as "it is possible that the ACS got it wrong". For further background see also PMID 12808367. ] (]) 07:33, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
::::::::You pointed out their error, but in an unnecessarily harsh way. A little tact goes a long way and encourages civil discourse. ] (]) 07:50, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
I agree with ] in regards to the text, I have answered also at original post (since there was already a response there) furthermore I will look for additional sources that dispel any link. thank you--] (]) 10:52, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
:Ozzie, it would be better to find and summarize the best ] sources, we shouldn't go questing for sources to support some pre-decided POV. If there are stronger sources than the ACS (or earlier, Ernst's 2003 systematic review) then bring them forth! ] (]) 11:18, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
::actually a review 2014 is posted on the other discussion on wikiproject med. will look for more--] (]) 12:00, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
:::We already cite that - does it bear on the "death" question? I can't (currently) get access to a full text. ] (]) 12:54, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

===Sources related the the death, health, safety issue===
Alexbrn has introduced to support this statement in the Lede (emphasis mine):
:{{tq|Drinking kombucha can '''cause''' liver damage and, in rare cases, death.}}

This is in conflict with even the originally cited ACS' wording, "linked". "Cause" is a big leap forward, and the source used does not support such a claim.

'''Sources that do not support death claims''':

*

:"There have, however, been reports of adverse effects, such as stomach upset, infections and allergic reactions in kombucha tea drinkers. Kombucha tea is often brewed in homes under nonsterile conditions, making contamination likely. If ceramic pots are used for brewing, lead poisoning might be a concern — the acids in the tea may leach lead from the ceramic glaze.
:In short, there isn't good evidence that kombucha tea delivers on its health claims. At the same time, several cases of harm have been reported."

*

:"The best that can be said about kombucha is that it probably won’t kill you."

*
:"...there are case reports, which suggest that Kombucha preparations can cause such problems as nausea, jaundice, shortness of breath, throat tightness, headache, dizziness, liver inflammation, and even unconsciousness. 4,5,6 It isn't clear whether the cause of these symptoms is an unusual reaction to a generally nontoxic substance, or a response to unusual toxins that developed in a particular batch of Kombucha.

:"In addition, there is one case report of severe lead poisoning caused by regular use of Kombucha brewed in a ceramic pot. 7 When brewed or stored in some ceramics, the risk of lead poisoning results because Kombucha tea is acidic. Many ceramic glazes contain a low level of lead that would not make the pottery dangerous for ordinary use; but if an acidic solution like Kombucha is steeped in them for a long time, a dangerous amount of lead may leech into the solution.

:"There is also one report of Kombucha becoming infected with anthrax and passing along the infection to an individual who rubbed it on his skin to alleviate pain. 8 Apparently, anthrax from nearby cows got into the Kombucha mixture and grew."


*NYT where the link began, confirming there was no real evidence of a link:

:"In 1995, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention issued a report linking kombucha to the death of an Iowa woman and the illness of another woman. Both experienced severe metabolic acidosis, excessive acid buildup in the body that health officials thought may have been related to their daily use of kombucha. Though the federal center did not definitively cite the tea as the problem, the incident put a damper on kombucha consumption."


The death claim we have in the Lede seems fringe at best. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 19:52, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
:{{u|Petrarchan47}} has written of the text "Drinking kombucha can cause liver damage and, in rare cases, death", {{tq|&ldquo;the source used does not support such a claim.&rdquo;}} I am very surprised by this accusation since the has "kombucha tea can cause serious hepatic damage and even fatality." In what way is our text not supported by the source? ] (]) 08:45, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

—
Additionally that same reference is referred to several times as a different reference (eg 2 and 21 are the same reference basically. It looks like there is just the one death "caused"?? by the drink, which is the AIDS guy. I haven't got access to the full paper so I am unclear if the link is actually causal, it just said he had the tea 15 hours before dying.
] (]) 10:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

::Interesting. I was researching matcha tea and came across this discussion. Regarding the RS that alleges kombucha can '''cause''' liver damage, etc. I researched the cited source in the footnote of the source cited in the article for verifiability in accordance with ]. Btw, ] is a great essay. The source that '''caused''' the misapprehension in the cited book is here: I found no such determination specifically stated in that journal entry. It appears the author of the source cited in this article made an '''assumption'''. It is a classic example of what can happen when we ''ass-u-me''. I'm of the mind that the '''cause''' statement and RS used to support the assumption is inaccurate. The passage should be modified for factual accuracy and properly cited. Perhaps we should exercise as much care and concern when citing RS in these types of articles as we do in all medical and science related articles such as those involving GMF and GMOs, for example. It would certainly save time and megabytes of space on TP. --<font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><sup>]]</sup> 12:10, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
:::{{tq|&ldquo;... '''I''' researched the cited source ... &rdquo; / &ldquo;... '''I''' am of the mind ... &rdquo;}} ← yes, that's called ] and it's what we must not do. We follow reputably-published secondary sources instead of editors' non-expert views. ] (]) 12:17, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
::::No, that is not considered OR.  It is considered researching for verifiability which editors are actually obligated to do because V is one of the 5 pillars.  OR, for example, is when an editor includes a passage about laboratory research or experimental results that cannot be cited by published sources.  I suggest you read ] and familiarize yourself with the policy.  The book that was cited to support the claim that it '''causes death''' is incorrectly stated and not supported by the book's own cited source. That is factual inaccuracy - verifiable but false.  The information has been removed, and now the onus is on those who want it included to validate why it should be.  Please keep in mind that It may be considered a violation of ] to revert its removal. --<font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><sup>]]</sup> 16:07, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
:::::It is the very epitome of OR. You are reintepreting the primary sourced drawn on by a secondary source to reach a different conclusion (and of course this is explicitly called out as a no-no in MEDRS). You've also been deleting secondary-sourced content and using primary sources (a case report). Also bad. ] (]) 16:11, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
:::::(ADD) Well, you're now edit-warring your poor content in. I have issued a warning ... ] (]) 16:27, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
{{od}}Please stop your edit warring and battleground behavior and stop the false accusations. I reverted your notice on my TP as it was an abuse of the template. It was also posted to my TP '''after''' I posted a friendly warning to you about edit warring which is exactly what '''you are doing'''. Policy clearly states that the onus is on the editor who wants to add back the disputed material, and you have not provided one ounce of evidence that supports the extraordinary claim you made in lead. I provided intext attribution from the conclusion of the report in a published, peer reviewed journal, and did not reinterpret anything. The source you are using '''cited that journal report''' with an inaccurate statement that was not supported by their cited source, therefore it failed verifiability. Per policy: extraordinary claims require extraordinary sources and that is exactly what I provided with inline text attribution. The onus is now on you to find a RS that is compliant with V and also passes the scrutiny of MEDRS. Furthermore, the simple fact that your source is a RS per MEDRS does not guarantee inclusion of the material cited. I strongly advise you to stop your battleground behavior and edit warring. <font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><sup>]]</sup> 16:52, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
:You are mis-stating policy, and have replaced a secondary source with a primary because you personally disagree with the secondary (which has nothing to do with ], this source '''directly''' supported the cited content). You have twice inserted your preferred text. ] (]) 17:10, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
::I think perhaps the reason you believe I misstated policy may actually result from your misinterpretation of it. Exceptional claims require exceptional sources - the claim that kambucha tea '''causes''' death is an exceptional claim.  '''Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources.'''  Sorry, but the death claim was cited to a single source that was disputed for factual inaccuracy.  The source is verifiable but not true.  '''Red Flag.'''  Per policy {{xt|Red flags that should prompt extra caution include: '''surprising or apparently important claims not covered by multiple mainstream sources;'''}}  The following also applies: {{xt|claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community, '''or that would significantly alter mainstream assumptions, especially in science, medicine,''' history, politics, and biographies of living people.}} <font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><sup>]]</sup> 19:02, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
:::Certain plants and fungi can cause illness and death; that is a commonplace and not "exceptional". Since we have high quality MEDRS sources saying so here we should use them, rather than privileging your inexpert personal opinions. ] (]) 21:07, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
::::Of course plants and fungi can cause illness and death, but you need to present a source that establishes causality specifically between kombucha consumption and death. Can you do this? Has causality been firmly established? The source in the article that cites the 2009 case report does indeed say "cause", but the original case report does stop short of that: "While Kombucha tea is considered a healthy elixir, the limited evidence currently available raises considerable concern that it may pose serious health risks. Consumption of this tea should be discouraged, as it may be associated with life-threatening lactic acidosis." and says it may be associated with life-threatening lactic acidosis. One case report saying may be associated sounds like a relatively weak case for establishing causality. More evidence is warranted to state that it can cause fatal reactions (associated with fatal reactions...sure). ] (]) 22:16, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
:::::What Tyler said. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 23:55, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
:::::I'd not object to "has been suspected of causing" as that is still in line with the source. ] (]) 05:22, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
::::::It's a fringe claim unsupported by the blurb in your book. Why would the Mayo Clinic fail to mention death if this were an established fact? We should summarize what the best sources say. No good sources are making this claim, and even the ACS was referring to an old case that was so weak the FDA merely gave a warning about the drink. The sources give a much more nuanced picture of how negative health effects arise, such as contamination during the fermentation process, and we should do the same. I think statements about death should be removed until this has been settled. Right now it's an embarrassment to host this 'information'. We should err on the safe side as Misplaced Pages has a bad reputation for misinformation regarding health content as it is. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 07:40, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

:::::::Regardless of what is included, please do not try and tie this in with Misplaced Pages's supposed reputation. What some groups may or may not think of some aspects of Misplaced Pages is extremely vague and is a terrible precedent to set for why content should be altered. If anyone is embarrassed by content someone else has put into Misplaced Pages, that's their problem. ] (]) 07:55, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
::::::::On the contrary, why would editors place questionable claims in an article that end up giving skewed information and so give fodder to such groups? The goal should be to have a reputable source of information. If an editor is embarrassed by skewed claims they need to be edited, thats the nature is WP, to improve what others have done. ] 11:37, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
{{od}}
The only people finding this "questionable" are those indulging their own prejudices. Some folks here are in effect arguing for Misplaced Pages to depart from the established pharmacological literature on this subject:
*{{cite book|author=Jean M. Wible|work=Pharmacology for Massage Therapy|title=Potentially dangerous herbal medicines|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=1meqRvS5AcMC&pg=PA266|year=2005|publisher=Lippincott Williams & Wilkins|isbn=978-0-7817-4798-1|page=266|quote='''Kombucha tea; a general cure-all; can cause acidosis and death'''}}
*{{cite book|author1=Bronwen Jean Bryant|author2=Kathleen Mary Knights|title=Pharmacology for Health Professionals|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=TQV6sLzYsOYC&pg=PA78|year=2011|publisher=Elsevier Australia|isbn=978-0-7295-3929-6|page=78|quote='''Kombucha has been associated with illnesses and death. A tea made from Kombucha is said to be a tonic, but several people have been hospitalised and at least one woman died after taking this product.'''}}
] (]) 13:16, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
:{{u|Alexbrn}} Do not to comment on other editors, its against a few policies that you should be aware of. ] 14:08, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
:I'm trying to find what is referring to, but there is nothing here. This is yet another aspersion cast against fellow editors here, insinuating that there is off-wiki communication. The Komucha cabal? It's almost as bad as . '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>'''
::CAM (alt-med) haters systematically use exaggerated claims of side effects and death to discredit natural remedies, most of which are not scientifically supported as in this case. Maybe the benefits of kombucha are also exaggerated and scientifically unsupported but it's not our job to promote or debunk it. Our job is to write about the topic in an encyclopedic manner; i.e. neutral, informative, and sourced to RS that are ]. I'm sure that's what we're all trying to accomplish, right? The kombucha review basically confirmed that for centuries there have been no reported issues linked to the consumption of kombucha tea prior to reports from the 90s forward but feel free to correct me if I misstated the dates. So what changed? It appears the fermenting process and the utensils used have had a significant influence. Lead seeping into the mix is a concern but it's not an inherent property of kombucha - it's an inherent property of the ceramic utensils. All it takes is a little common sense, a pinch of IAR, and the MEDRS approved review that was conducted last year confirming the safety of kombucha products for consumers. There are lots of books out there and most reference the same reports and articles covered in the review. The review also includes a relatively brief section on toxicity citing a small number of reports involving a small number of cases that MAY be linked to consumption of the product. We cannot state it as the '''cause''' in Wiki voice regardless of the misstatements and erroneous conclusion made by a chemist at a Texas university who cited a report that doesn't support his statement. False statements do not belong in the lead of this article. --<font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><sup>]]</sup> 22:59, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

There are ownership issues, coupled with hostility, and no real, NPOV concern for the article itself. The concern here seems only to make sure the worst claims possible are front and center, and this is evidenced by the recent edit history. The Lede is in violation of ] but I've absolutely no faith that my edits to fix this will not be immediately reverted. History of the drink does not require MEDRS sourcing. There is no reason not to mention the story of the article subject in the Lede as any other WP article would do. Editors are required to edit in a neutral manner, and those with a bias against or for the article subject should recuse themselves if that bias is drowning out the most basic WP guidelines. Because of the hostility and ownership issues, this will be my last comment here. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 20:18, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

:And Atsme, who just did such an excellent job of covering the issue, might just walk away as well. Anything to do with natural healing methods has been taken over by a few biased editors and it is a waste of time to attempt to change the campaign that's been going on for some time now. Too bad for our encyclopedia, but at least for now I have no idea on how to go about changing it... ] (]) 01:57, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
::A passer-by's view: couldn't agree more with Gandydancer. This sort of bias and ownership is immensely damaging to Misplaced Pages's reputation. Although (apologies, off-topic) having read the entirety of this talk page, from a dispassionate point of view the carnage is rather entertaining. <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 11:46, 11 June 2015 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

===Health benefits===

* ''Rasu Jayabalan, Radomir V. Malbaˇsa, Eva S. Lonˇcar, Jasmina S. Vitas, and Muthuswamy Sathishkumar''

:''pg. 10''
:Although kombucha tea cannot be granted official health claims at this time, it can be recognized as an important part of a sound diet. Not exactly a traditional beverage, kombucha tea is now regarded as a “health” drink, a source of pharmacologically active molecules, an important member of the antioxidant food group, and a functional food with potential beneficial health properties. Research on kombucha demonstrating its beneficial effects and their mechanisms will most likely continue to increase substantially in the next few years. It is apparent that kombucha tea is a source of a wide range of bioactive components that are digested, absorbed, and metabolized by the body, and exert their effects at the cellular level.

*

:Kombucha a fermented tea has prophylactic and therapeutic properties.
:Antimicrobial activities of kombucha were studied against human pathogens.
:Five new Kombucha-like drinks were investigated by fermenting herbal extracts.
:New fermented beverages exhibited strong antimicrobial potentials (against Candida).
:Fermented Lippia citriodora and Foeniculum vulgare may be very healthful.

Just adding newer reports that have found benefits. Our article cites older references stating that none had been found. I won't add anything as I know I will be reverted, so will just leave it here for you. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 07:49, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
:The first is already cited here. I don't believe either paper has "found benefits" (in people) but rather suppose beneficial mechanisms may exist based on lab work. Have you actually read Jayabalan et.al.? (I'm finding it hard to get a full copy right now.) ] (]) 09:35, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
::A supposition that benefits may exist based on promising laboratory studies from several sources certainly warrants inclusion under phrasing such as "preliminary studies suggest ... though these benefits have not been conclusively demonstrated in human trials" or similar. Human trials are always valuable, but the laboratory indications are also important, suitably caveated. This has been repeatedly pointed out above. <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 18:55, 10 June 2015 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:::{{replyto|87.115.171.174}} Yes, and we already say this: "Although laboratory experiments are suggestive of possible health effects, there is no evidence that kombucha consumption benefits human health." ] (]) 05:31, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
::::Not the same thing. Laboratory studies constitute _preliminary_ evidence, not a lack of evidence. <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 11:49, 11 June 2015 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:::The second study doesn't seem to meet ] standards. ] may be reputable, but the study is a primary source. Misplaced Pages articles generally do not include ] studies, especially not for medical content, and should never use such material to make generalized health claims, even obliquely. ] (]) 20:04, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
::::Greyfell, please explain why you think the second study "doesn't seem to meet" MEDRS standards, and then explain why you think the "death" claims do. Are you saying what was stated in a book written by a chemist at a Texas university is more reliable than a report by 4 MDs, a PharmaD plus a Journal Review which cites that same report? Perhaps I've overlooked something. --<font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><sup>]]</sup> 20:57, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
:::::Secondary sources are sources which analyze or summarize primary sources. They are, in almost all cases, preferable for use on Misplaced Pages. ] spells it out pretty clearly. Because this is medical content, those secondary sources are also held to higher standards. If the study is important, it should be possible to find it explained in a reliable secondary source. The study itself is perfectly fine as a study. This isn't a comment on the credentials of any scientists, it's about neutrality and due weight, and avoiding ]. I have no idea why Texas would be relevant. ] (]) 21:19, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

== NPOV, V and MEDRS ==

That reference needs to be deleted all together and the statements cited to it need to be modified to reflect current sources.  Also, per ] {{xt|Case reports, whether in the popular press or a peer reviewed medical journal, are a form of anecdote and generally fall below the minimum requirements of reliable medical sources.}}  The only evidence related to illness and death regarding consumption of the tea are case reports published in a peer reviewed medical journal, all of which lack scientific evidence to confirm causality. The book that is cited to the lead statement that links consumption of the tea to death is not cited to a RS and is noncompliant with MEDRS for the following reasons: (1) the claim in the book is misstated, factually incorrect and not supported by the source cited in the book, (2) the cited source is a case report (3) the claim is only one author's opinion and it conflicts with the 2014 Journal review which cites that same case report. Policy dictates extraordinary claims require (multiple) extraordinary sources and all I've seen that link the tea to death cite the same case report which MEDRS considers to be anecdotal and below the minimum requirements. Furthermore, the inclusion of such material in this article demonstrates noncompliance with two core policies, NPOV and V.  I am asking for GF collaboration without the ] and ] behavior we've seen demonstrated by the reverting of GF edits that correct policy noncompliance regarding the unreliable case reports and links to death.  The DS notice is now visible on this TP for all to see.  We all must abide by PAGs and MEDRS when editing this article. <font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><sup>]]</sup> 13:31, 11 June 2015 (UTC) 
:I'd forgotten I wrote that. The problem as I see it is that there are two angles this article needs to cover. Kombucha is a beverage which is, at least in places I've been recently, widely available in supermarkets, convenience stores, coffee-shops, etc.. From this perspective, mentioning the rare illnesses and deaths in the lead seems a bit undue, because death and illness can be found associated with virtually every consumable product, and sources are are mostly about outlying cases (right?). ''However'', and this is a huge issue, kombucha is also a characterized by some as a health product. It may have some health benefits, but it's also been misrepresented as a treatment for a number of illnesses without any reliable sources at all. If we're talking about a commercially bottled beverage, then the health risks and benefits should be mostly ignored, because the benefits don't have any sources, and the health risks are effectively minimal (one source facetiously said something like "it probably won't kill you"). When talking about how kombucha is made, and if we're describing this as a health tonic, I don't think it's at all undue to mention the risks and to underscore the lack of scientifically studied benefits. Mentioning the death in the body seems like it may be appropriate to the extent that this is about a fringe medical practice. I would like the lead to say something like "risk of potentially fatal illness". That seems like a concise way to explain that it's a serious issue without overselling it. As I understand it, explaining potential risks and being very cautious about medical claims is the underlying rational for MEDRS. ] (]) 20:10, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
::Thank you, Grayfell - I agree with you. Let's work at getting ] and ] fixed and the rest will self-correct. I suggest using the Journal review since it is the most reliable source we have at this point in time. There are plenty of mainstream media articles on the subject that pass the RS acid test. Mayo is another good source. I am looking forward to collaborating with you. ] --<font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><sup>]]</sup> 20:20, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

==Claim tied to primary source (case report)==
This claim "Other reports of adverse reactions may be related to unsanitary fermentation conditions, leaching of compounds from the fermentation vessels, or "sickly" kombucha cultures that cannot acidify the brew." is tied to a primary source. It is unsuitable for a MEDRS claim. ] 19:54, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
:I think part of the statement (about the leaching of compounds) is adequately referenced since it's referring to individual case reports, which is covered by the primary reference. However, the rest of the sentence is unreferenced; I'll see if I can find something that references each part. (updated) ] (]) 02:54, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
::Sure, you will need to find reviews, secondary sources for all of it, including the initial claim. Case reports are the most primary form of sources and should not be used for medical claims. Per ] "in general, editors should rely upon high-quality evidence, such as systematic reviews, rather than lower-quality evidence, such as case reports, or non-evidence, such as anecdotes or conventional wisdom." ] 12:47, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
:::A lot of poorly-sourced stuff there; I've trimmed (and reversed some NNPOV interim edits). ] (]) 12:58, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
::::Yes, and you keep replacing it. I fixed the problem in the lead and in the body of the article using the updated journal review which is compliant with MEDRS. It replaces the old review that is 13 years old. The extraordinary claims of death and toxicity have been removed as they are antecdotal case reports which are considered below minimum requirements for inclusion per MEDRS, not to mention grossly UNDUE. I highly recommend that you stop the unwarranted reverts and your disruptive behavior. <font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><sup>]]</sup> 13:08, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
:::::What is it you think is "MEDRS" ? Please focus on content. ] (]) 13:15, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
::::::Please focus on the type of source used for medical claims. That is the topic of this section. Replace the primary sources or the claims need to be removed. ] 13:19, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
:::::::They've gone. ] (]) 13:22, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
:::{{u|AlbinoFerret}}, ] doesn't say that primary sources ''must not'' be used; it says that they ''should not'' be used. In circumstances where data is limited, primary sources might be the best-available evidence. Therefore, using them isn't problematic according to the spirit of MEDRS, which is to use the highest-quality sources available. That said, the case study in question is quite old and hasn't been cited or its conclusions repeated anywhere so including it is UNDUE. ] (]) 15:01, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
::::Yes, and in practice the circumstances where primary sources are acceptable for health information are ''extremely'' limited. ] (]) 15:05, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
::::This isnt just a primary source, but one of the lowest quality primary sources, a case report. MEDRS putts it on par with "anecdotes or conventional wisdom" and neither of those is possible to be used for medical claims. That makes the extremely rare use even harder to justify. If a high quality primary source can be found it can be discussed and possibly brought in through consensus. Any primary source should not be added without consensus. ] 15:43, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

====Another Primary sourced claim====
"Some adverse health effects may be due to the acidity of the tea; brewers have been cautioned to avoid over-fermentation." is sourced to a primary source. It needs to be a secondary source for medical claims, of which "adverse effects" is a medical claim. ] 13:17, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
:Isn't the "Food and Drug Administration model" primary? The source is secondary to that. ] (]) 13:20, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
::No the Food and Drug Administration model is just that, it is a model, that is applied to different foods. The source is primary as it is applying the model to Kombucha and discussing that. The source is avilable at the Freelibary for those who dont have access to the print ] 13:25, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
:::Might just want to say "To avoid excessive acidity ..." then (and move it out if the Health section)? ] (]) 14:21, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
::::That sounds like a reasonable course of action. ] 15:46, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

== CRD Summary of unsupported claims in Ernst review ==

I have repeatedly asked editors to stop including the poorly sourced, noncompliant extraordinary claims of toxicity and death linked to kombucha products because they are scientifically unsupported claims, and the sources used do not even meet the minimum requirements of MEDRS.  I have added DS alerts to the TPs of those editors who have not been alerted previously. I added the DS alert notice at the top of this article's TP. I have posted friendly notices on TP of those editors who have been edit warring and asked them to please stop the disruption. I have provided below the information that clearly demonstrates why the Ernst systematic review does not meet even the minimum requirements of MEDRS for inclusion of the scientifically unsupported claims of death and toxicity in this article. Reverting in order to include such claims is disruptive and noncompliant with PAGs including ], ], ], ], and simply do not belong in this article.

See and CRD commentary. I have included them below for your convenience.

=====Results of the review=====
Three case series and two case reports of adverse events were included in the review. These included 28 patients in total.

No studies were found relating to the efficacy of Kombucha.

The reporting of the individual cases was poor, making it difficult to ascertain if Kombucha was the cause of the adverse events reported. The adverse events included suspected liver damage and metabolic acidosis from Kombucha drunk as a tea. One case series described cutaneous anthrax infection through topical application of the tea, although the Kombucha could have been contaminated due to storage in extremely unhygienic conditions.

=====CRD commentary=====
The inclusion criteria for this review were necessarily broad to allow for a full analysis of the efficacy and safety of this remedy. A wide range of information sources were searched, making it less likely that studies were missed. It was not possible to assess the validity of the evidence, nor was pooling possible due to a lack of efficacy data. Reports of adverse events were described and comments were made on the likely cause-effect relationship. It was unclear whether the review involved more than one reviewer in the study selection and data extraction processes, which could serve to minimise bias. Although the author appropriately cautions the use of an unproven remedy with potential side-effects, it is important to note that not all of the adverse events may be attributable to the remedy itself.

Please respect our PAGs. <font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><sup>]]</sup> 00:51, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

:This article is a review, meaning it is secondary, correct? ] is certainly a notable authority on CAM, so I'm not seeing how it fails to meet MEDRS. Is the journal not reliable? Systematic reviews are ideal for medical content. I could easily be missing something, but this source doesn't look fundamentally unusable. The wording is debatable, and it would certainly be nice to have something a bit more recent, but that's typical. ] (]) 01:44, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

:::When the review of the review itself states: '''''The reporting of the individual cases was poor''''' it is a clear and unambiguous indication that is represents a '''''poorly sourced'''''' review to make claims that '''''Kombucha was the cause of the adverse events reported.''''' Read the review and the commentary. Just because it is a secondary source doesn't mean it's ok to use it. Read the essay, ]. MEDRS also clearly states the case reports are anecdotal and do not meet minimum requirements so the latter coupled with a review that assesses portions of the systematic review as "poor" tells us we cannot use it as a RS. <font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><sup>]]</sup> 02:04, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
::::Yes, I'm listening, okay? I hope you wouldn't feel the need to yell at me to my face, so maybe cool it with the '''''unnecessary emphasis''''', because that's the appearance it gives.
::::Earnst does acknowledge that the reporting was poor. That doesn't automatically make the source poor. The distinction is important. Since the source is reliable, but the content is preliminary, the article content could still be included in a way that reflects that. The author's conclusion seems like a very useful point to bring up, and the article can reflect that. (Again, it would be really nice to have something more recent and comprehensive here):

::::{{tq|The author concluded that the claimed benefits of Kombucha were not supported by clinical evidence and, in view of the adverse events profile, its therapeutic use could not be recommended. However, he also noted that the adverse events were described in isolated reports, which cannot allow firm conclusions about causality and allow for generalisation.}}

::::Isn't that exactly the point you're trying to clarify in the article? ] (]) 02:48, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
* Note that {{u|AlbinoFerret}} removed this source on the grounds that it is old when we have newer ones, which is reasonable enough. ] (]) 04:54, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

== Edit warring; please respect ] ==

{{u|Atsme}} is ] deleting MEDRS-compliant material (e.g. that sourced to a 2011 Pharmacology textbook) and creating a section entitled "Health benefits" to which is then added material sourced to , which so far as I can see is not even PUBMED indexed - a ]. These changes are not in line with how we source medical content here, and this edit warring of poor content has got to stop. ] (]) 04:01, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
:{{u|Alexbrn}} is repeatedly reverting to add back unsupported claims cited to sources that are non-compliant with NPOV, UNDUE, MEDRS, and V. The sources he is citing are referencing case reports which MEDRS considers anecdotal and below the minimum requirement for RS. The claims of toxicity and death are extraordinary claims because they are rare, and random case reports involving unsupported evidence from a very small group of people. The 2003 systematic review and other RS he keeps citing all refer back to the unsupported case reports because there are so few. The recorded case reports have been assessed in the Ernst 2003 systematic review as '''poor''' and scientifically unsupported (see my comment below). The material Alex keeps adding back is written in such a way to purposely effect public opinion regarding kombucha which is noncompliant with NPOV. I am concerned that this issue is high enough on the scale of importance that an admin needs to review it and impose DS as needed because of the unsupported medical claims subject of this dispute. <font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><sup>]]</sup> 13:01, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
::Right so you're talking - good! The claims that kombucha tea drinking is associated with (N.B. that does not mean "causes") fatalities is sourced to two well-published medical textbooks, which as ] tells us are good sources; is has also been mentioned in many earlier works. On what grounds do you say the sources we use are "below the minimum requirement for RS"? (Disagreeing with them does not count). <br/>
::(Add:) BTW, here's another recent textbook which might be useful:
::*{{cite book |author=Dasgupta A, Sepulveda JL |work=Accurate Results in the Clinical Laboratory: A Guide to Error Detection and Correction |url=http://books.google.com/books?id=HEBloh3nxiAC&pg=PA78 |year=2013 |publisher=Elsevier |isbn=978-0-12-415858-0 |pages=78–79 |title=Other Supplements that Cause Liver Damage |quote=the limited evidence currently available raises safety concerns, especally regarding potential hepatotoxicty and the possibility of life-threatening lactic acidosis}}
::] (]) 13:40, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
{{od}}Alex, implying that I haven't been talking is unwarranted as are your attempts to make me appear to be the one who is edit warring and being disruptive. You are reverting my GF edits which correct the noncompliant material you keep adding back. You are also abusing rollback privileges with your use of TW.  I have long since advised you on your TP to stop edit warring. Your repeated warnings on my TP are also abusive because I am not edit warring, you are. Keep in mind, you warned me to stay off your TP.  It is unacceptable for you to repeatedly add contentious, scientifically unsupported material and reverting my edits which cites the most recent review of kombucha, and meets all the requirements of MEDRS as a verifiably accurate, '''high quality RS'''. PAGs tell us that a RS may not be considered reliable for inclusion of contentious material that is scientifically unsupported and/or that is noncompliant with our 3 core content policies, not to mention UNDUE and FRINGE. For the umpteenth time, the sources you keep citing do not meet even the minimum requirements for adding extraordinary claims of death and toxicity because they are based on case reports which are considered anecdotal. As I demonstrated below via Doc James' post at Proj Med, it doesn't matter how many sources you cite if they are all making the same scientifically unsupported claims.  Perhaps you should read more closely the review of the 2003 Ernst systematic review and pay closer attention to the CRD summary because it rates the review's mention of case reports as '''poor'''.  My post includes the full summary.   <font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><sup>]]</sup> 14:06, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
:That doesn't really answer my very specific question, about why the sourcing we use is in your view "below the minimum standard for RS". Sure they are based on case reports etc. but the expert, reliably-published assessment in the sources we use is that those case reports give rise to concerns about possibly of life-threatening adverse effects from kombucha tea. So we relay that expert, reliably-published view as we should. As another editor has explained to you above that the case reports are "poor" does not make secondary ''sources evaluating those case reports'' poor. You need to understand that. (Add: I do not think you're right in saying ] applies to these claims either: I shall ask at ] for clarification.) ] (]) 14:16, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

==Comment==
I note that there seems to be a good deal of reversion and edit warring in this article. Please remember to ], and don't revert edits simply because you don't like another editor's referenced version, which seems to be happening all the time here. Reversion is for combating vandalism not for establishing your version of reality.

This talk page is for discussion, and I suggest that it's used before making edits that revert another editor's GF edits. If you really can't reach an agreed text through adult discussion here, then ask an uninvolved editor to arbitrate, bang heads or whatever.

I'm not going to work back through the edit history to apportion blame, because that is unconstructive, I'm just asking that you play nicely and talk rather than revert. This isn't an FA or GA candidate, so there are no requirement for perfect prose. If an edit is GF and referenced to an RS source it should not e removed without discussion with the other editor


== Potential health risks ==
] - ] 09:06, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
:Note this had already been raised at ]. I don't know what you mean by saying reversion is happening because "simply because you don't like another editor's referenced version"? In my case "simply not liking" doesn't come into in: I am reverting for the reasons I have given on this talk page, which centre on our need for ] for health information. That's right, no? <br/> Perhaps if there are still questions to decide, an RfC might be the way forward? ] (]) 10:32, 16 June 2015 (UTC)


Per the cited source include:
::I was trying hard to avoid pointing fingers, but since you ask here are a couple of examples where you have used Twinkle, an anti-vandalism tool, to revert what appear to be GF edits with summaries that do not identify the nature of the vandalism . Your edit for these summaries suggest that you are reverting on opinion rather than vandalism. Anti-vandalism tools, such as Twinkle, Huggle, and rollback, should not be used to undo good-faith changes unless an appropriate edit summary is used. The same user was reverted in each case. I can't see how his/her edits were vandalism, and it seems to be that discussion would be better than unilateral bashing with Twinkle. I have no personal interest in this article, and I know that positions can become entrenched. I would just like to see unnecessarily confrontational actions avoided with an aim to reach some consensus.
{{talkquote|Kombucha has been implicated (but not necessarily confirmed) in a number of case reports, including hyponatremia; lactic acidosis; toxic hepatitis after consuming kombucha tea daily for two years; a patient newly diagnosed with human immunodeficiency virus who presented with a case of hyperthermia, lactic acidosis, and acute renal failure within 15 hours of ingesting kombucha; anti-Jo1 antibody-positive myositis ; symptomatic lead poisoning from brewing kombucha in a ceramic pot; an outbreak of cutaneous anthrax reportedly from applying the kombucha mushroom to the skin as a painkiller; pellagra; an allergic reaction, jaundice, and nausea, vomiting, head and neck pain; metabolic acidosis; hepatotoxicity; and cholestatic hepatitis.{{pb}}
Kombucha contains small amounts of alcohol. In a Food and Drug Administration investigation, the alcohol content of samples ranged from 0.7% to 1.3%; no methanol was detected. Kombucha is contraindicated in pregnant women and likely people with significant renal, pulmonary, or liver disease.}}
Do we really want to enumerate every one? I think ] applies as Misplaced Pages is meant to <u>summarize</u> sources. People can alwys read the source if they want the full detail. Not sure ] (]) 16:14, 1 January 2024 (UTC)


:"Implicated but not confirmed"
::I think we are a long way from ], but there seems to be a need for a more measured approach ] - ] 12:35, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
:"Confirmed"
:::Twinkle's just a tool. I don't see any difference between using it and doing a manual content edit if the result is the same. In both cases I followed up here to the Talk page but have had no response which makes it difficult for a measured approach to flourish. And of course the issue at hand has been discussed ''ad nauseam'' above. I have no doubt the edits were GF but they are adding medical claims sourced in once case to a primary source and in another to a questionable source, while at the same time deleting material which is ''not'' dubiously sourced. We have a responsibility to ensure the health information carried in articles is accurate. I am happy to discuss the particulars of that further if that would help here. ] (]) 12:54, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
:Pick one. ] (]) 17:38, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
::The first set are not confirmed causes, but potential risks. Komucha is contraindicated in pregnant women and likely people with significant renal, pulmonary, or liver disease, but they are potential risks. Anyway, that does not answer the question? ] (]) 17:42, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
:::"Anyway, that does not answer the question?"
:::No. Because it needs to be in the article, without weasel words, and with citations.
:::You'll notice how the goal-posts keep moving here? I asked for a citation for "A 2019 review confirmed the numerous health risks"
:::You gave me a quote that directly contradicts that. And you're acting like I'm pushing junk science? I'm asking for clarification to misquoted science. That's it. ] (]) 17:46, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
::::You tagged it with "which" and demanded that the article list them. Do you still want them listed? ] (]) 17:49, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::Yes. I want a list of all of the "confirmed ... numerous health risks". So far you have 0. ] (]) 17:50, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
::::::They article says "potential health risks" (I changed it). So that's okay now? Time to de-tag? ] (]) 17:55, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::::You're still weaseling. If you care about pregnant women, talk about pregnant women. If you care about liver disease, talk about liver disease. The point still stands... which? Leave it alone, or do the work. ] (]) 17:56, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
::::::::I have done the work, to list (above) the potential health risks in the source, which you explicitly tagged as needing listing. Are you still saying every one needs to be listed? If so, I disagree. ] (]) 18:00, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::The work needs to be done in the article, not a talk page ] (]) 18:13, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
:::Pregnant women aren't supposed to have any alcohol. All fermentation creates alcohol. Pregnant women aren't supposed to have any fermented tea, because of the .5% alcohol content. This is definitely something that wikipedia should note. Pregnant women are advised to listen to their doctors. That isn't the same thing. Some thing goes for people with health complications. All of this can be noted. With citations. Anything medical on wikipedia should be direct and with clear citation, without deviating from the citation. ] (]) 17:54, 1 January 2024 (UTC)


== Spurious tagging ==
{{od}}The onus to restore material that was challenged for noncompliance is on the editor who wants to restore it which in this case is you, Alex. I think an RfC would be a good plan if you think it will support your position but keep in mind that an RfC cannot override policy. The discussion you wikilinked above ] did not include any diffs to support your position. Following are diffs from that discussion that support mine. For convenience, I also included below the comments made by Doc James.


Here. Asking why Jilly juice ("a fermented drink with claimed health benefits") is like Kombucha (a fermented tea with claimed health benefits) seems bizarre; likewise asking why ] is relevant when Kombucha is actually ''an entry there'' is odd. Citation needs tags are inappropriate too, in a See also section, which does not have citations. ] (]) 16:33, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
*
*
*


:If you want, you can always simply find an agreeable source and cite it ] (]) 17:35, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Following is Doc James' post in its entirety:
::What part of See also sections not having citations did you miss? ] (]) 17:43, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
:::The part where you're trying to define kombucha as pseudo-science quackery and conflating it with literal pseudo-science quackery ] (]) 17:49, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
::::That seems like a non-sequitur and I just don't know how to respond. I have raised a query at ]. ] (]) 17:53, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::I would love some oversight here. Am I vandalizing by adding citation tags? The first see also link for kombucha shouldn't be quack medicine, alphabetizing aside. Am I crazy for suggesting this is conflating kombucha with quack science? The article is littered with poorly cited or uncited references to kombucha being dangerous junk science. This feels like propaganda to me. ] (]) 18:00, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
::::::The first link is to ], not "quack medicine". There are both fermented drinks spuriously promoted for health. See also sections do not have citations. You are not addressing these points. ] (]) 18:04, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::::I don't know if it's your doing or not, but the article linked starts: "Jilly Juice is a quack pseudomedicine" ] (]) 18:06, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
::::::::And so why should it not be linked? ] (]) 18:07, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::Goal posts moving again: "The first link is to Jilly Juice, not "quack medicine"."
:::::::::Now: "And so why should it not be linked?" ] (]) 18:10, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::You wrote "The first see also link for kombucha shouldn't be quack medicine, alphabetizing aside". We have now established that by 'quack medicine' you meant Jilly Juice. So: why shouldn't it be the first see also link? ] (]) 18:20, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::Because it's intentionally conflating kombucha with "quack pseudo-science". I'm not removing it; I'm merely asking for a citation. If you can provide a reasonable citation that conflates or links the two, I'll remove my citation needed. That is, after all, all this is about. ] (]) 18:25, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::See also sections do not have citations. See also contain links to related/tangential topics. They are both fermented drinks promoted with spurious claims of healthful properties. What you are doing is hostage tagging, and it is disruptive. ] (]) 18:28, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::This is my point. You seem to be defining kombucha as "a fermented drink with spurious health claims". ] (]) 18:34, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::::Not me, the sources. And no, it's not a viable treatment for AIDS or cancer. ] (]) 18:37, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::This all started because you refused to link "the sources." Obviously drinking vinegar and tea won't cure aids... ] (]) 18:53, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::We already said kombucha was promoted with implausible, wide-ranging health claims, making it an extreme example of an "unconventional remedy". ] (]) 19:00, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::"We have now established that by 'quack medicine' you meant Jilly Juice."
:::::::::::No. By opening the thread talking about Jilly Juice, and asking me directly and specifically about Jilly Juice, we established we were talking about Jilly Juice. Again, moving the goal post. ] (]) 18:28, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::@] I ran out of room in the edit summary, but in response to the berry question in the {{tl|cn}} tag, check out ], ] (]) 19:36, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::That's totally reasonable. I agree it makes sense to have the cancer page linked ] (]) 20:18, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
===Jilly Juice in See also===
I wonder whether the inclusion of ] is a violation of ]. Are there serious sources ''about kombucha'' which mention Jilly Juice? I see plenty in the other direction. ] (]) 21:02, 2 January 2024 (UTC)


:Thank you; this definitely seems like a violation of ] to me. Do you know what the proper steps for trying to report that are? Do I simply remove it and cite ONEWAY? ] (]) 16:41, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
{{xt|Reading through a couple of comments:
:I think I added it. I see your point on the ] guideline, but I think it fits per ] guideline, ''"One purpose of "See also" links is to enable readers to explore tangentially related topics; however, articles linked should be related to the topic of the article or be in the same defining category."'', the relation/category being weird health-hyped ]. I don't think either guideline is obviously "mightier" here, and that JJ fits at least as well as the other see alsos. So, it's an editorial discretion thing. IMO, it should stay. ] (]) 16:57, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
I would disagree that 5 major newspapers are reliable sources when it comes to medical content. Sources / evidence are like school children. 5 first graders do not equal one 5 grade in ability.
::I'm easy either way. ] (]) 16:59, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
I like the "true to presentation" bit.
:::Never heard of ], but if you think it's improvement. ] (]) 17:55, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
I also like that extreme ideas require extreme sources. One would need amazing sources to support the idea that TMers can actually fly
::You can't define kombucha as "weird" and "health-hyped." That's the problem. ] (]) 17:23, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 6:10 pm, 11 June 2015, last Thursday (5 days ago) (UTC−4)}}
:::"Weird" was my choice of words, but "health-hyped" and "fermented" is part of the article, cancer etc. ] (]) 17:29, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
::::The problem is the definition. The definition of a blueberry can't be "health-hyped." Blueberries ''can'' be health hyped. There's a major difference. ] (]) 17:31, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::And JJ is health-hyped, correct? ] (]) 17:33, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
::::::It's a quack product that was sold as a scam. It has no business on this page. Citation needed. ] (]) 17:38, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
:Also, I don't think having JJ in the See also section amounts to it being "discussed" or that it gives "undue weight to the fringe theory" of JJ per ]. ] (]) 17:17, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
::It says "mentioned in the text of other articles". The See also is in the text of the article. If you want to bring up fringe products, you need reliable sourcing. ] (]) 17:21, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
:::Nope, See also sections don't need citing on en-WP, it's editorial discretion. ] (]) 17:30, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
::::You're arguing with the text of the rules ] (]) 17:32, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::Guidelines. It's what Wikipedians do. ] (]) 17:34, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
::::::Cool. So I'm following guidelines and you're flouting them in favor of "editorial discretion" ] (]) 17:39, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::::I'm following the ] guideline. You and I have commented enough on this for now, but feel free to try some form of ] after giving other editors a few days to comment. ] (]) 17:42, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
::::::::Does ] say citations cannot be requested in the see also section? ] (]) 17:48, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::!!!!! It does not! Do you think that is because the See also section says "These articles exists on WP"? You're coming at this from the wrong direction, it's not a citation thing, it's just consensus. If you wait, you may get it. Or not. Either outcome will not cause the end of WP as we know it. ] (]) 18:04, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::Even if there was consensus that it should stay, it would still need a citation ] (]) 18:08, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::No. ] (]) 18:12, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::"Fringe views, products, or those who promote them, may be mentioned in the text of other articles only if independent reliable sources connect the topics in a serious and prominent way."
::::::::::::It's pretty unambiguous. ] (]) 18:14, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::That is text from one guideline, yes. I think I've mentioned another. But other editors will tell us what they think at some point. Or not, they may be enjoying their popcorn. ] (]) 18:21, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::::Can you quote me the part where it says not to put any citations in the see also section? Or not to ask for them? Or a guideline that recommends removing citation needed tags based on nothing more than "editorial discretion"? ] (]) 18:24, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::Again, a See also section states "These articles exist on Misplaced Pages." That's it, proven by wikilink. The inclusion of specific items is a ] and consensus-thing. "External links" works in a similar way. ] (]) 18:30, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::I searched "These articles exist on Misplaced Pages" and had no results. Can't you please copy-and-paste for clarity? ] (]) 18:54, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::I wasn't quoting, ''a See also section states "These articles exist on Misplaced Pages."'' was my choice of words. ] (]) 19:22, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::Could you please show me a quote (not your choice of words) so I can understand what you are saying? ] (]) 20:23, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::It seems not. Hopefully other editors will help. ] (]) 20:24, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::::Futile arguments, refusal to get the point, and edit warring. This is becoming a problem. ] (]) 20:26, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::::It's concerning that wanting proper sourcing and citing the rules (er... guidelines...) verbatim is a problem for you. ] (]) 20:50, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::The ]s are not an exhaustive things of bad things to avoid doing. As is explained, see also sections are a way of organizing <u>internal links</u>. When there is ambiguity, it is suggested editors should add annotation. There's nothing to say you can't add citations; there's nothing to say you can't add embedded movies or infoboxes. ] (]) 18:32, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
My main worry is that the inclusion of Jilly Juice might be almost acting like a way to advertise the stuff for people interested only in kombucha. The less real estate we devote to that nonsense, the better. YMMV. ] (]) 01:29, 4 January 2024 (UTC)


:So many words above for so little purpose :(. Personally I agree with Gråbergs Gråa Sång and Bon courage (I think) that this is a reasonable link to include in the See also section, per ]; that it is not significant enough in the context of kombucha to be discussed in the body (whereas kombucha is correctly mentioned in the body at ]); and that editorial discretion could go either way on all of the individual items currently listed as See also. I would encourage everyone discussing above to stop responding if you have nothing new to say: just make your point once in its strongest form. ] (]) 01:36, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
Perhaps you should read more closely the summaries and conclusions of the 2003 Ernst systematic review and pay closer attention to the CRD summary because it rates the Ernst review's mention of case reports as '''poor'''.  My post above provides the full summary -
::Seems to me that Jilly Juice is different in the sense that it is, as far as I can tell, a specific recipe to make pickle brine. A link to ] in the see also makes sense to me as it is the same genre as kombucha. Trade names for bizarre recipes of specific ''types'' of fermented drinks seems like the "odd man out", as it were. ] (]) 01:39, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
:::I would be more inclined to agree with this argument if there were an article at ] (or any content at the redirect target ] about drinking pickle brine) but I can see how a reasonable person could take your view (hence that editorial discretion could go either way). ] (]) 01:43, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
:::Of course it's different, See also's are for things that are different. But there are similarities enough to include. Like 100.36. says, consensus can go either way, there is a ] element involved. As I read the above, jps is worried its inclusion may drive customers to JJ, and TlonicChronic is worried its inclusion may taint the good name of Kombucha. While 100.36., Bon Courage and myself aren't very worried about either. Come to think of it, Coca Cola could fit See also here too, there are similarities in history/shift in marketing. ] (]) 08:22, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
::::Essentially all ]s have their origins as tonics. Oh, that includes ], of course. Then they get incorporated into cocktails and before you know it, they're just another item that a well-stocked wet bar is supposed to have. This is how I see kombucha. I would be surprised if Jilly Juice took the same trajectory, but, ], I suppose. ] (]) 19:09, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
{{od}}While it looks like maybe the consensus is somewhat in favor of inclusion, I went ahead and ]ly removed Jilly Juice because it really does strike me as the odd-man out on the list. If and when that stuff starts being produced by a major beverage distributor and you can, for example, actually buy it in stores, I think that would be my preferred point for including on the list. Until then, however, it looks to me to be just a bit too parochial by comparison. ] (]) 14:28, 19 January 2024 (UTC)


:Well, at least you were open that maybe the consensus is somewhat in favor of inclusion. ] (]) 12:10, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
Bottomline - having multiple RS that make the same scientifically unsupported claims based on the same case reports (extraordinary ones, at that, considering they include claims of death and toxicity based only on a small number of anecdotal reports with no scientific evidence to confirm causality) are still considered unreliable for citing those specific claims. It is noncompliant with MEDRS, not to mention noncompliant with UNDUE, NPOV, V, and FRINGE. The 2014 Review, and the review of the 2003 Ernst review represent high quality sources and they also don't support the material you want included rather they contradict it. Claims of health benefits based on anecdotal evidence is not allowed when writing about health benefits or negative reactions. Refer to the articles on GMO, GMF, Atrazine, Bull Red and the like. Alex, you are well aware of MEDRS and what is and isn't compliant, and you should know the material you want in this article is noncompliant because the claims of death and toxicity are based on anecdotal case reports. I strongly advise you to drop the stick. <font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><sup>]]</sup> 17:19, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
:I agree with Doc James; I disagree with you. Yet you've gone ahead and re-asserted your edit ''yet again'' (I have reverted). You are using a 2014 article which does not seem to appear on PUBMED yet alone in MEDLINE's index. That is a ] so far as ] is concerned. As I said above, you are simply wrong in dismissing secondary sources because you personally disagree with their use of primary sources. We have a longstanding consensus version of the text (and lede) for this article you are seeking to overturn. You can't just blank well-sourced material because you value your personal assessment more than that of the well-published sources we use. You spout a lot of wiki-acronyms but show very little sign of understanding what they betoken. ] (]) 17:44, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
:(Add:) Oh, and you've just re-reverted again. I'm backing off and will await the input of other admins/editors as the discussion route with you just seems to be going nowhere. ] (]) 17:47, 16 June 2015 (UTC)


== Definition of "kombucha" ==
{{od}}:Really? If PUBMED is what you want, I'm happy to cite a 2014 review in PUBMED as well. The abstract is below and I imagine some of our GF collaborators will be adding health information published in that review as well. There are numerous others - it's only a matter of citing them.


Just because a product is investigated for its purported health benefits (all foods are) doesn't make it a part of the definition of the product. If we're going to define kombucha as consumed for it's purported health benefits, we need a source that ''defines'' kombucha as drunk for health benefits, not a source that states that it ''is'' drunk for health benefits. I grew up in a public school littered with "Got milk?" ads telling me milk would make me grow up healthy and strong with good bones. That doesn't mean milk is, by definition, drunk for health benefits. ] (]) 18:05, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
J Med Food. 2014 Feb;17(2):179-88. doi: 10.1089/jmf.2013.0031. Epub 2013 Nov 5.
Current evidence on physiological activity and expected health effects of kombucha fermented beverage.
Vīna I1, Semjonovs P, Linde R, Deniņa I.
Abstract
Consumption of kombucha fermented tea (KT) has always been associated with different health benefits. Many personal experiences and testimonials of KT drinkers are available throughout the world on the ability of KT to protect against a vast number of metabolic and infectious diseases, but very little scientific evidence is available that validates the beneficial effects of KT. The aim of this review is to give an overview of the recent studies in search of experimental confirmation of the numerous KT health-promoting aspects cited previously. Analysis of the literature data is carried out in correspondence to the recent concepts of health protection's requirements. Attention is given to the active compounds in KT, responsible for the particular effect, and to the mechanisms of their actions. It is shown that KT can efficiently act in health prophylaxis and recovery due to four main properties: detoxification, antioxidation, energizing potencies, and promotion of depressed immunity. The recent experimental studies on the consumption of KT suggest that it is suitable for prevention against broad-spectrum metabolic and infective disorders. This makes KT attractive as a fermented functional beverage for health prophylaxis.
PMID: 24192111 [PubMed - indexed for


:In the first sentence we should be referring to other topics which are important to kombucha and which help establish its notability. Many of the ] on kombucha focus on its purported health befefits. This article even <u>classifies</u> it as a neutraceutical. ] (]) 18:28, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Happy reading! <font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><sup>]]</sup> 18:35, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
::Wait... You're saying that the National Library of Medicine calls it a nutraceutical? ] (]) 18:30, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
:::Sorry what? Nobody is citing the "National Library of Medicine" for anything. ] (]) 18:33, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
::::Sorry; the Foods journal classifies it as a nutraceutical? Also, why so quick to argue semantics and spelling? ] (]) 18:36, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::The article has been stable for a long time. ''You'' are editor arguing and trying to change things. Unlike milk, kombucha is very heavily associated with (bogus) health claims. So the sources say, anyway. ] (]) 18:41, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
::::::Milk
::::::Coffee
::::::Tea
::::::Literally everything is called a nutraceutical (over ten thousand articles apiece). ] (]) 18:46, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
::::::"Unlike milk, kombucha is very heavily associated with (bogus) health claims."
::::::Everyone in my public school was told that milk would make them grow up big and strong. There's a giant transnational milk lobby with massive political power that has sway on markets and opinions. You're just wrong here.
::::::(Milk is delicious, for what it's worth. I buy local fresh whole milk. Tasty as heck.) ] (]) 18:50, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::::What happened at your school is not relevant to Misplaced Pages. I don't know what you think your search shows, but using your method you could claim sources say milk is called a fish. ] (]) 18:55, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
::::::::It wasn't just my school... ] ] (]) 19:52, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
::::::::" using your method you could claim sources say milk is called a fish."
::::::::No... by using your method you could define milk as pseudo-science that's drunk for it's health benefits. My method is asking for sources. Your method is deleting requests for sources (and mis-citing sources). ] (]) 19:55, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::I don't think any reliable sources classify milk a a functional food, or neutraceutical, or discuss it primarily in terms of its bogus health claims. For kombucha, they do. This article follows that. You are edit warring and adding useless tags to the article. ] (]) 20:06, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::I linked you fifty thousand (medical) articles mentioning "milk" and "nutraceutical"... ] (]) 20:19, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::Your search result is meaningless, as already indicated. ] (]) 20:24, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::Do you genuinely not think people drink milk because they think it's healthy? Food gets massively propagandized. ] (]) 20:52, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::What I think doesn't matter. We follow sources, and for fringe subjects there is additionally a special need to be clear about fringe claims. If you think ] has a NPOV problem, raise the issue there. ] (]) 20:53, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::Your search results will include every article indexed by those databases that includes the phrase, "milk is not a nutraceutical". ] (]) 08:21, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::The point, here, is that milk ''is'' drunk for health purposes. "There has been an increased interest in goat milk and goat milk products worldwide because of their high nutritional content and health benefits."
::::::::::::Nazli Turkmen,
::::::::::::Chapter 35 - The Nutritional Value and Health Benefits of Goat Milk Components,
::::::::::::Editor(s): Ronald Ross Watson, Robert J. Collier, Victor R. Preedy,
::::::::::::Nutrients in Dairy and their Implications on Health and Disease,
::::::::::::Academic Press,
::::::::::::2017,
::::::::::::Pages 441-449,
::::::::::::ISBN 9780128097625,
::::::::::::https://doi.org/10.1016/B978-0-12-809762-5.00035-8.
::::::::::::(https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780128097625000358)
::::::::::::Abstract: Goat milk has various effects on human health considering the total solid, fat, protein, lactose, mineral, and vitamin contents. In addition to positive effects on physical and sensory characteristics of dairy products, lipids of goat milk provide better digestibility with small fat globule size and high short- and medium-chain fatty acids content. Goat milk has higher amounts of conjugated linoleic acids playing important roles in immune stimulation, growth promotion, and disease prevention. The most important effect of goat milk proteins is their healing effect on cow milk allergy, the most common food allergy, which causes many deaths in infants. In addition, the β-casein/αs1-casein ratio (70%/30%) of goat milk proteins is similar to human milk, which results in more digestibility compared to the cow milk in relation to higher sensitivity of β-casein to the protease enzymes. Lactose is the main carbohydrate of all species of milk, and its content in goat milk is lower than the others. In contrast, goat milk rich in oligosaccharides is important in its protective function of intestinal flora against pathogens and in brain and nervous system development. In addition to higher amounts of some minerals, more importantly the bioavailability of minerals in goat milk is higher than of minerals in cow milk. The higher Vitamin A content may be the most important difference among the other vitamins in goat milk compared to cow milk. Considering the millions of child deaths every year caused by Vitamin A deficiency, goat milk is a very important source. Besides many beneficial effects of goat milk, the advantages of breeding goats, such as the lower cost of animals, the need for less feed and water, and often not requiring the specialized housing that larger livestock need, are reasons to promote the improvement of goat milk production worldwide. Goat milk is a valuable food source of animal protein, phosphorus, and calcium, especially in countries with low consumption of meat.
::::::::::::Keywords: Composition; Goat milk; Health benefit; Nutrition; Therapeutic effect ] (]) 15:06, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::That might be relevant at ], but not here.
:::::::::::::As regards milk generally, you seem to be conflating nutritional and therapeutic claims. "Everyone in my public school was told that milk would make them grow up big and strong" is a claim about nutrition, and nutrition is actually discussed in the ] article in the "types of consumption" section. Health claims made for ] are discussed in that article, appropriate because the claims are made for that particular sub-category of milk. It might be appropriate to mention this in the main milk article, but I think including it in the lead would be undue. A fork for health claims about kombucha would be inappropriate because (as far as I can see from the sources) the claims are made about kombucha generally, not some particular sub-type. ] (]) 09:34, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::::I'm not against health claims in the article, I'm against them in the definition. You can't define goat milk as consumed for health benefits. If it isn't relevant here, why are you arguing it here? You say 50,000 articles might say "milk is not a nutraceutical". That's absolutely rediculous. Why would tens of thousands of PhDs be paid to study if milk wasn't a nutraceutical. Nutraceutical means consumed for health benefits. If you define kombucha as "consumed for health benefits", you can do the exact same thing for milk (and tea, and coffee, and tonic water, and coca-cola...). That's the whole point. ] (]) 15:23, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::When you say "the definition", do you mean "the ]" or something else? ] (]) 09:53, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::I mean the opening sentence. The one that starts with the subject of the article in bold and defines it. I kept the health mention in the first paragraph of the lead. The health stuff should 100% be talked about. It just needs proper citations that aren't meant to push a POV, which is all I'm trying to clean up. The jilly juice is massively pushing POV. Saying "confirmed" and citing a source that says "not confirmed" is straight up lying. ] (]) 14:47, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::Nothing about JJ or health stuff in the opening sentence. ] (]) 21:42, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::A neutral opening sentence and no mention of JJ without proper citation. The same thing it's been for days. ] (]) 22:56, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::Afaict, the opening sentence of this article has never mentioned JJ. "Neutral" depends of the beholder. ] (]) 00:16, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::::In the whole article. Like we've talked about this whole time. I don't understand why this is so difficult to understand. You can't mention fringe products anywhere in the article (without proper citation). ] (]) 02:06, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::::"Neutral" is the objective of Misplaced Pages. If that's too difficult for you, this probably isn't a website for you. ] (]) 02:06, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
The definition of kombucha is the first sentence, essentially. I see nothing wrong with the first sentence. ] (]) 01:34, 4 January 2024 (UTC)


:Agree. ] (]) 01:38, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
::I agree, the first sentence is perfectly fine now. If everyone is fine with it the way it is, let's not add any extraneous clauses back in. ] (]) 15:21, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
* The reason to include the health claims in the definition is to mirror multiple strong RS and not downplay that iffy aspect of this stuff. I suspect that since kombucha has become popular in the west, editors here are unaware of its history. Even Britannica says "Kombucha, beverage made of fermented green or black tea, usually consumed as a health food". But if people want Misplaced Pages to be coy about this aspect then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ] (]) 15:29, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
*:"consumed as a health food" is a different statement from "purported health benefits". ] (]) 15:34, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
*:But it's nice of you to admit your edits are directly meant to lower people's consumption of the product. ] (]) 15:35, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
*::Please don't make such very stupid comments; you have been alerted this is a ]. ] (]) 15:37, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
*:::Yes. And contentious topic require proper citations that aren't misused. ] (]) 15:42, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
*:There's literally an entire paragraph about this in the introduction of the article! Also I agree with you about the quality of TlonicChronic's comments but please could you just ignore them instead of collaborating with them to create enormous walls of pointless bickering? ] (]) 02:46, 6 January 2024 (UTC)


==Wiki Education assignment: The Microbiology of College Life==
::{{ec}} {{u|Atsme}} the phrasing you're adding is problematic for several reasons: health is in scarequotes, the quote is undue because there's only one source that says that it's an important member of any group, the sentence "There have not been any human trials conducted to confirm any curative claims associated with the consumption of kombucha tea." is awkward, the phrase "small number of random anecdotal reports" is POV, and you've added the exact same text to the lead and to the health effects section.
{{dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment | course = Misplaced Pages:Wiki_Ed/Cornell_University/The_Microbiology_of_College_Life_(Spring) | assignments = ] | start_date = 2024-01-22 | end_date = 2024-05-11 }}
::{{u|Alexbrn}}, it's not unreasonable to think that a food sciences journal wouldn't be indexed in PUBMED, and not being in PUBMED doesn't necessarily mean that it's a bad source, especially considering that there isn't a whole lot of research out there on this. The journal apparently has an , which seems pretty good.
::''Both'' of you are edit-warring and ''both'' sets of sources are MEDRS-compliant for this article. The text you're both looking to add is also quite similar. I can't see why both sets of sources couldn't be used to support something like this in Health Effects:
::{{blockquote|Kombucha has been promoted as an antioxidant health drink that can treat a variety of human illnesses including ], ], and ], and that it can stimulate the ]. Although laboratory experiments are suggestive of possible health effects, human clinical trial evidence that kombucha consumption benefits human health is lacking.<ref name=micro/><ref>{{vcite2 journal |vauthors=Vīna I, Semjonovs P, Linde R, Deniņa I |title=Current evidence on physiological activity and expected health effects of kombucha fermented beverage |journal=J Med Food |volume=17 |issue=2 |pages=179–88 |year=2014 |pmid=24192111 |doi=10.1089/jmf.2013.0031 |type=Review}}</ref> The consumption of Kombucha has been associated with some ]s including ], poisoning, infection, and the death of at least one person.<ref name=Dasgupta2011>{{cite book |author=Dasgupta A |work=Effects of Herbal Supplements on Clinical Laboratory Test Results |url=http://books.google.com/books?id=7bWdexOTAuoC&pg=PA111 |title=Chapter 11: Toxic and Dangerous Herbs |year=2011 |publisher=Walter de Gruyter |isbn=978-3-11-024561-5 |page=111}}</ref><ref name=pfp>{{cite book |author1=Bryant BJ, Knights KM |work=Pharmacology for Health Professionals |title=Chapter 3: Over-the-counter Drugs and Complementary Therapies |url=http://books.google.com/books?id=TQV6sLzYsOYC&pg=PA78 |year=2011 |publisher=Elsevier Australia|isbn=978-0-7295-3929-6 |page=78 |quote=Kombucha has been associated with illnesses and death. A tea made from Kombucha is said to be a tonic, but several people have been hospitalised and at least one woman died after taking this product. |edition=3rd}}</ref>}}


<span class="wikied-assignment" style="font-size:85%;">— Assignment last updated by ] (]) 00:30, 10 May 2024 (UTC)</span>
::And for the lead:
::{{blockquote|Kombucha is considered to be a health drink with antioxidant properties and has been promoted as treating a number of illnesses, although there have been no human clinical trials verifying kombucha's beneficial effects.<ref name=Jayabalan>{{cite journal |first1= R |last1= Jayabalan |first2= RV |last2= Malbaša |first3= ES |last3= Lončar |first4= JS |last4= Vitas |first5= M |last5= Sathishkumar |date= July 2014 |title= A Review on Kombucha Tea — Microbiology, Composition, Fermentation, Beneficial Effects, Toxicity, and Tea Fungus |journal= ] |volume= 13 |issue= 4 |pages= 538–50 |doi= 10.1111/1541-4337.12073 | quote="a source of pharmacologically active molecules, an important member of the antioxidant food group, and a functional food with potential beneficial health properties."}}</ref> Some adverse effects related to the consumption and production of kombucha have been reported in anecdotal case reports.<ref name=Jayabalan/> Anecdotal reports have raised concerns over the potential for contamination during home preparation, as well as toxicity concerns due in part to the leaching of lead in ceramic containers during fermentation.<ref name=Jayabalan/>}}
::] (]) 18:41, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
{{reflist-talk}}
:::That seems good. That a source isn't in PUBMED does't make it bad in itself, but it makes it iffy for any kind of non-obvious health claim. In general such sources are best avoided for that purpose. ] (]) 19:12, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

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Potential health risks

Per the cited source include:

Kombucha has been implicated (but not necessarily confirmed) in a number of case reports, including hyponatremia; lactic acidosis; toxic hepatitis after consuming kombucha tea daily for two years; a patient newly diagnosed with human immunodeficiency virus who presented with a case of hyperthermia, lactic acidosis, and acute renal failure within 15 hours of ingesting kombucha; anti-Jo1 antibody-positive myositis ; symptomatic lead poisoning from brewing kombucha in a ceramic pot; an outbreak of cutaneous anthrax reportedly from applying the kombucha mushroom to the skin as a painkiller; pellagra; an allergic reaction, jaundice, and nausea, vomiting, head and neck pain; metabolic acidosis; hepatotoxicity; and cholestatic hepatitis.

Kombucha contains small amounts of alcohol. In a Food and Drug Administration investigation, the alcohol content of samples ranged from 0.7% to 1.3%; no methanol was detected. Kombucha is contraindicated in pregnant women and likely people with significant renal, pulmonary, or liver disease.

Do we really want to enumerate every one? I think WP:NOTEVERYTHING applies as Misplaced Pages is meant to summarize sources. People can alwys read the source if they want the full detail. Not sure Bon courage (talk) 16:14, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

"Implicated but not confirmed"
"Confirmed"
Pick one. TlonicChronic (talk) 17:38, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
The first set are not confirmed causes, but potential risks. Komucha is contraindicated in pregnant women and likely people with significant renal, pulmonary, or liver disease, but they are potential risks. Anyway, that does not answer the question? Bon courage (talk) 17:42, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
"Anyway, that does not answer the question?"
No. Because it needs to be in the article, without weasel words, and with citations.
You'll notice how the goal-posts keep moving here? I asked for a citation for "A 2019 review confirmed the numerous health risks"
You gave me a quote that directly contradicts that. And you're acting like I'm pushing junk science? I'm asking for clarification to misquoted science. That's it. TlonicChronic (talk) 17:46, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
You tagged it with "which" and demanded that the article list them. Do you still want them listed? Bon courage (talk) 17:49, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Yes. I want a list of all of the "confirmed ... numerous health risks". So far you have 0. TlonicChronic (talk) 17:50, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
They article says "potential health risks" (I changed it). So that's okay now? Time to de-tag? Bon courage (talk) 17:55, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
You're still weaseling. If you care about pregnant women, talk about pregnant women. If you care about liver disease, talk about liver disease. The point still stands... which? Leave it alone, or do the work. TlonicChronic (talk) 17:56, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
I have done the work, to list (above) the potential health risks in the source, which you explicitly tagged as needing listing. Are you still saying every one needs to be listed? If so, I disagree. Bon courage (talk) 18:00, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
The work needs to be done in the article, not a talk page TlonicChronic (talk) 18:13, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Pregnant women aren't supposed to have any alcohol. All fermentation creates alcohol. Pregnant women aren't supposed to have any fermented tea, because of the .5% alcohol content. This is definitely something that wikipedia should note. Pregnant women are advised to listen to their doctors. That isn't the same thing. Some thing goes for people with health complications. All of this can be noted. With citations. Anything medical on wikipedia should be direct and with clear citation, without deviating from the citation. TlonicChronic (talk) 17:54, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Spurious tagging

Here. Asking why Jilly juice ("a fermented drink with claimed health benefits") is like Kombucha (a fermented tea with claimed health benefits) seems bizarre; likewise asking why List of unproven and disproven cancer treatments is relevant when Kombucha is actually an entry there is odd. Citation needs tags are inappropriate too, in a See also section, which does not have citations. Bon courage (talk) 16:33, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

If you want, you can always simply find an agreeable source and cite it TlonicChronic (talk) 17:35, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
What part of See also sections not having citations did you miss? Bon courage (talk) 17:43, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
The part where you're trying to define kombucha as pseudo-science quackery and conflating it with literal pseudo-science quackery TlonicChronic (talk) 17:49, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
That seems like a non-sequitur and I just don't know how to respond. I have raised a query at WP:FT/N. Bon courage (talk) 17:53, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
I would love some oversight here. Am I vandalizing by adding citation tags? The first see also link for kombucha shouldn't be quack medicine, alphabetizing aside. Am I crazy for suggesting this is conflating kombucha with quack science? The article is littered with poorly cited or uncited references to kombucha being dangerous junk science. This feels like propaganda to me. TlonicChronic (talk) 18:00, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
The first link is to Jilly Juice, not "quack medicine". There are both fermented drinks spuriously promoted for health. See also sections do not have citations. You are not addressing these points. Bon courage (talk) 18:04, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
I don't know if it's your doing or not, but the article linked starts: "Jilly Juice is a quack pseudomedicine" TlonicChronic (talk) 18:06, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
And so why should it not be linked? Bon courage (talk) 18:07, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Goal posts moving again: "The first link is to Jilly Juice, not "quack medicine"."
Now: "And so why should it not be linked?" TlonicChronic (talk) 18:10, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
You wrote "The first see also link for kombucha shouldn't be quack medicine, alphabetizing aside". We have now established that by 'quack medicine' you meant Jilly Juice. So: why shouldn't it be the first see also link? Bon courage (talk) 18:20, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Because it's intentionally conflating kombucha with "quack pseudo-science". I'm not removing it; I'm merely asking for a citation. If you can provide a reasonable citation that conflates or links the two, I'll remove my citation needed. That is, after all, all this is about. TlonicChronic (talk) 18:25, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
See also sections do not have citations. See also contain links to related/tangential topics. They are both fermented drinks promoted with spurious claims of healthful properties. What you are doing is hostage tagging, and it is disruptive. Bon courage (talk) 18:28, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
This is my point. You seem to be defining kombucha as "a fermented drink with spurious health claims". TlonicChronic (talk) 18:34, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Not me, the sources. And no, it's not a viable treatment for AIDS or cancer. Bon courage (talk) 18:37, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
This all started because you refused to link "the sources." Obviously drinking vinegar and tea won't cure aids... TlonicChronic (talk) 18:53, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
We already said kombucha was promoted with implausible, wide-ranging health claims, making it an extreme example of an "unconventional remedy". Bon courage (talk) 19:00, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
"We have now established that by 'quack medicine' you meant Jilly Juice."
No. By opening the thread talking about Jilly Juice, and asking me directly and specifically about Jilly Juice, we established we were talking about Jilly Juice. Again, moving the goal post. TlonicChronic (talk) 18:28, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
@TlonicChronic I ran out of room in the edit summary, but in response to the berry question in the {{cn}} tag, check out Ellagic acid#See also, Rjjiii (ii) (talk) 19:36, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
That's totally reasonable. I agree it makes sense to have the cancer page linked TlonicChronic (talk) 20:18, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Jilly Juice in See also

I wonder whether the inclusion of Jilly Juice is a violation of WP:ONEWAY. Are there serious sources about kombucha which mention Jilly Juice? I see plenty in the other direction. jps (talk) 21:02, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you; this definitely seems like a violation of WP:ONEWAY to me. Do you know what the proper steps for trying to report that are? Do I simply remove it and cite ONEWAY? TlonicChronic (talk) 16:41, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
I think I added it. I see your point on the WP:ONEWAY guideline, but I think it fits per MOS:SEEALSO guideline, "One purpose of "See also" links is to enable readers to explore tangentially related topics; however, articles linked should be related to the topic of the article or be in the same defining category.", the relation/category being weird health-hyped Category:Fermented drinks. I don't think either guideline is obviously "mightier" here, and that JJ fits at least as well as the other see alsos. So, it's an editorial discretion thing. IMO, it should stay. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:57, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
I'm easy either way. Bon courage (talk) 16:59, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Never heard of Template:Annotated link, but if you think it's improvement. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:55, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
You can't define kombucha as "weird" and "health-hyped." That's the problem. TlonicChronic (talk) 17:23, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
"Weird" was my choice of words, but "health-hyped" and "fermented" is part of the article, cancer etc. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:29, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
The problem is the definition. The definition of a blueberry can't be "health-hyped." Blueberries can be health hyped. There's a major difference. TlonicChronic (talk) 17:31, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
And JJ is health-hyped, correct? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:33, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
It's a quack product that was sold as a scam. It has no business on this page. Citation needed. TlonicChronic (talk) 17:38, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Also, I don't think having JJ in the See also section amounts to it being "discussed" or that it gives "undue weight to the fringe theory" of JJ per WP:ONEWAY. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:17, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
It says "mentioned in the text of other articles". The See also is in the text of the article. If you want to bring up fringe products, you need reliable sourcing. TlonicChronic (talk) 17:21, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Nope, See also sections don't need citing on en-WP, it's editorial discretion. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:30, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
You're arguing with the text of the rules TlonicChronic (talk) 17:32, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Guidelines. It's what Wikipedians do. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:34, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Cool. So I'm following guidelines and you're flouting them in favor of "editorial discretion" TlonicChronic (talk) 17:39, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
I'm following the MOS:SEEALSO guideline. You and I have commented enough on this for now, but feel free to try some form of WP:DR after giving other editors a few days to comment. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:42, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Does MOS:SEEALSO say citations cannot be requested in the see also section? TlonicChronic (talk) 17:48, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
!!!!! It does not! Do you think that is because the See also section says "These articles exists on WP"? You're coming at this from the wrong direction, it's not a citation thing, it's just consensus. If you wait, you may get it. Or not. Either outcome will not cause the end of WP as we know it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:04, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Even if there was consensus that it should stay, it would still need a citation TlonicChronic (talk) 18:08, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
No. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:12, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
"Fringe views, products, or those who promote them, may be mentioned in the text of other articles only if independent reliable sources connect the topics in a serious and prominent way."
It's pretty unambiguous. TlonicChronic (talk) 18:14, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
That is text from one guideline, yes. I think I've mentioned another. But other editors will tell us what they think at some point. Or not, they may be enjoying their popcorn. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:21, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Can you quote me the part where it says not to put any citations in the see also section? Or not to ask for them? Or a guideline that recommends removing citation needed tags based on nothing more than "editorial discretion"? TlonicChronic (talk) 18:24, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Again, a See also section states "These articles exist on Misplaced Pages." That's it, proven by wikilink. The inclusion of specific items is a MOS:SEEALSO and consensus-thing. "External links" works in a similar way. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:30, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
I searched "These articles exist on Misplaced Pages" and had no results. Can't you please copy-and-paste for clarity? TlonicChronic (talk) 18:54, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
I wasn't quoting, a See also section states "These articles exist on Misplaced Pages." was my choice of words. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:22, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Could you please show me a quote (not your choice of words) so I can understand what you are saying? TlonicChronic (talk) 20:23, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
It seems not. Hopefully other editors will help. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:24, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Futile arguments, refusal to get the point, and edit warring. This is becoming a problem. Bon courage (talk) 20:26, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
It's concerning that wanting proper sourcing and citing the rules (er... guidelines...) verbatim is a problem for you. TlonicChronic (talk) 20:50, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
The WP:PAGs are not an exhaustive things of bad things to avoid doing. As is explained, see also sections are a way of organizing internal links. When there is ambiguity, it is suggested editors should add annotation. There's nothing to say you can't add citations; there's nothing to say you can't add embedded movies or infoboxes. Bon courage (talk) 18:32, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

My main worry is that the inclusion of Jilly Juice might be almost acting like a way to advertise the stuff for people interested only in kombucha. The less real estate we devote to that nonsense, the better. YMMV. jps (talk) 01:29, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

So many words above for so little purpose :(. Personally I agree with Gråbergs Gråa Sång and Bon courage (I think) that this is a reasonable link to include in the See also section, per WP:SEEALSO; that it is not significant enough in the context of kombucha to be discussed in the body (whereas kombucha is correctly mentioned in the body at Jilly Juice); and that editorial discretion could go either way on all of the individual items currently listed as See also. I would encourage everyone discussing above to stop responding if you have nothing new to say: just make your point once in its strongest form. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 01:36, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
Seems to me that Jilly Juice is different in the sense that it is, as far as I can tell, a specific recipe to make pickle brine. A link to pickle brine in the see also makes sense to me as it is the same genre as kombucha. Trade names for bizarre recipes of specific types of fermented drinks seems like the "odd man out", as it were. jps (talk) 01:39, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
I would be more inclined to agree with this argument if there were an article at Pickle brine (or any content at the redirect target Pickled cucumber about drinking pickle brine) but I can see how a reasonable person could take your view (hence that editorial discretion could go either way). 100.36.106.199 (talk) 01:43, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
Of course it's different, See also's are for things that are different. But there are similarities enough to include. Like 100.36. says, consensus can go either way, there is a personal taste element involved. As I read the above, jps is worried its inclusion may drive customers to JJ, and TlonicChronic is worried its inclusion may taint the good name of Kombucha. While 100.36., Bon Courage and myself aren't very worried about either. Come to think of it, Coca Cola could fit See also here too, there are similarities in history/shift in marketing. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:22, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
Essentially all Soft drinks have their origins as tonics. Oh, that includes tonic water, of course. Then they get incorporated into cocktails and before you know it, they're just another item that a well-stocked wet bar is supposed to have. This is how I see kombucha. I would be surprised if Jilly Juice took the same trajectory, but, WP:CBALL, I suppose. jps (talk) 19:09, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

While it looks like maybe the consensus is somewhat in favor of inclusion, I went ahead and WP:BOLDly removed Jilly Juice because it really does strike me as the odd-man out on the list. If and when that stuff starts being produced by a major beverage distributor and you can, for example, actually buy it in stores, I think that would be my preferred point for including on the list. Until then, however, it looks to me to be just a bit too parochial by comparison. jps (talk) 14:28, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Well, at least you were open that maybe the consensus is somewhat in favor of inclusion. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:10, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Definition of "kombucha"

Just because a product is investigated for its purported health benefits (all foods are) doesn't make it a part of the definition of the product. If we're going to define kombucha as consumed for it's purported health benefits, we need a source that defines kombucha as drunk for health benefits, not a source that states that it is drunk for health benefits. I grew up in a public school littered with "Got milk?" ads telling me milk would make me grow up healthy and strong with good bones. That doesn't mean milk is, by definition, drunk for health benefits. TlonicChronic (talk) 18:05, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

In the first sentence we should be referring to other topics which are important to kombucha and which help establish its notability. Many of the WP:BESTSOURCES on kombucha focus on its purported health befefits. This article even classifies it as a neutraceutical. Bon courage (talk) 18:28, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Wait... You're saying that the National Library of Medicine calls it a nutraceutical? TlonicChronic (talk) 18:30, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Sorry what? Nobody is citing the "National Library of Medicine" for anything. Bon courage (talk) 18:33, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Sorry; the Foods journal classifies it as a nutraceutical? Also, why so quick to argue semantics and spelling? TlonicChronic (talk) 18:36, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
The article has been stable for a long time. You are editor arguing and trying to change things. Unlike milk, kombucha is very heavily associated with (bogus) health claims. So the sources say, anyway. Bon courage (talk) 18:41, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Milk
Coffee
Tea
Literally everything is called a nutraceutical (over ten thousand articles apiece). TlonicChronic (talk) 18:46, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
"Unlike milk, kombucha is very heavily associated with (bogus) health claims."
Everyone in my public school was told that milk would make them grow up big and strong. There's a giant transnational milk lobby with massive political power that has sway on markets and opinions. You're just wrong here.
(Milk is delicious, for what it's worth. I buy local fresh whole milk. Tasty as heck.) TlonicChronic (talk) 18:50, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
What happened at your school is not relevant to Misplaced Pages. I don't know what you think your search shows, but using your method you could claim sources say milk is called a fish. Bon courage (talk) 18:55, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
It wasn't just my school... Got Milk? TlonicChronic (talk) 19:52, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
" using your method you could claim sources say milk is called a fish."
No... by using your method you could define milk as pseudo-science that's drunk for it's health benefits. My method is asking for sources. Your method is deleting requests for sources (and mis-citing sources). TlonicChronic (talk) 19:55, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
I don't think any reliable sources classify milk a a functional food, or neutraceutical, or discuss it primarily in terms of its bogus health claims. For kombucha, they do. This article follows that. You are edit warring and adding useless tags to the article. Bon courage (talk) 20:06, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
I linked you fifty thousand (medical) articles mentioning "milk" and "nutraceutical"... TlonicChronic (talk) 20:19, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Your search result is meaningless, as already indicated. Bon courage (talk) 20:24, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Do you genuinely not think people drink milk because they think it's healthy? Food gets massively propagandized. TlonicChronic (talk) 20:52, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
What I think doesn't matter. We follow sources, and for fringe subjects there is additionally a special need to be clear about fringe claims. If you think Milk has a NPOV problem, raise the issue there. Bon courage (talk) 20:53, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Your search results will include every article indexed by those databases that includes the phrase, "milk is not a nutraceutical". Brunton (talk) 08:21, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
The point, here, is that milk is drunk for health purposes. "There has been an increased interest in goat milk and goat milk products worldwide because of their high nutritional content and health benefits."
Nazli Turkmen,
Chapter 35 - The Nutritional Value and Health Benefits of Goat Milk Components,
Editor(s): Ronald Ross Watson, Robert J. Collier, Victor R. Preedy,
Nutrients in Dairy and their Implications on Health and Disease,
Academic Press,
2017,
Pages 441-449,
ISBN 9780128097625,
https://doi.org/10.1016/B978-0-12-809762-5.00035-8.
(https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780128097625000358)
Abstract: Goat milk has various effects on human health considering the total solid, fat, protein, lactose, mineral, and vitamin contents. In addition to positive effects on physical and sensory characteristics of dairy products, lipids of goat milk provide better digestibility with small fat globule size and high short- and medium-chain fatty acids content. Goat milk has higher amounts of conjugated linoleic acids playing important roles in immune stimulation, growth promotion, and disease prevention. The most important effect of goat milk proteins is their healing effect on cow milk allergy, the most common food allergy, which causes many deaths in infants. In addition, the β-casein/αs1-casein ratio (70%/30%) of goat milk proteins is similar to human milk, which results in more digestibility compared to the cow milk in relation to higher sensitivity of β-casein to the protease enzymes. Lactose is the main carbohydrate of all species of milk, and its content in goat milk is lower than the others. In contrast, goat milk rich in oligosaccharides is important in its protective function of intestinal flora against pathogens and in brain and nervous system development. In addition to higher amounts of some minerals, more importantly the bioavailability of minerals in goat milk is higher than of minerals in cow milk. The higher Vitamin A content may be the most important difference among the other vitamins in goat milk compared to cow milk. Considering the millions of child deaths every year caused by Vitamin A deficiency, goat milk is a very important source. Besides many beneficial effects of goat milk, the advantages of breeding goats, such as the lower cost of animals, the need for less feed and water, and often not requiring the specialized housing that larger livestock need, are reasons to promote the improvement of goat milk production worldwide. Goat milk is a valuable food source of animal protein, phosphorus, and calcium, especially in countries with low consumption of meat.
Keywords: Composition; Goat milk; Health benefit; Nutrition; Therapeutic effect TlonicChronic (talk) 15:06, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
That might be relevant at goat milk, but not here.
As regards milk generally, you seem to be conflating nutritional and therapeutic claims. "Everyone in my public school was told that milk would make them grow up big and strong" is a claim about nutrition, and nutrition is actually discussed in the milk article in the "types of consumption" section. Health claims made for raw milk are discussed in that article, appropriate because the claims are made for that particular sub-category of milk. It might be appropriate to mention this in the main milk article, but I think including it in the lead would be undue. A fork for health claims about kombucha would be inappropriate because (as far as I can see from the sources) the claims are made about kombucha generally, not some particular sub-type. Brunton (talk) 09:34, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
I'm not against health claims in the article, I'm against them in the definition. You can't define goat milk as consumed for health benefits. If it isn't relevant here, why are you arguing it here? You say 50,000 articles might say "milk is not a nutraceutical". That's absolutely rediculous. Why would tens of thousands of PhDs be paid to study if milk wasn't a nutraceutical. Nutraceutical means consumed for health benefits. If you define kombucha as "consumed for health benefits", you can do the exact same thing for milk (and tea, and coffee, and tonic water, and coca-cola...). That's the whole point. TlonicChronic (talk) 15:23, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
When you say "the definition", do you mean "the WP:LEAD" or something else? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:53, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
I mean the opening sentence. The one that starts with the subject of the article in bold and defines it. I kept the health mention in the first paragraph of the lead. The health stuff should 100% be talked about. It just needs proper citations that aren't meant to push a POV, which is all I'm trying to clean up. The jilly juice is massively pushing POV. Saying "confirmed" and citing a source that says "not confirmed" is straight up lying. TlonicChronic (talk) 14:47, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
Nothing about JJ or health stuff in the opening sentence. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:42, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
A neutral opening sentence and no mention of JJ without proper citation. The same thing it's been for days. TlonicChronic (talk) 22:56, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
Afaict, the opening sentence of this article has never mentioned JJ. "Neutral" depends of the beholder. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 00:16, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
In the whole article. Like we've talked about this whole time. I don't understand why this is so difficult to understand. You can't mention fringe products anywhere in the article (without proper citation). TlonicChronic (talk) 02:06, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
"Neutral" is the objective of Misplaced Pages. If that's too difficult for you, this probably isn't a website for you. TlonicChronic (talk) 02:06, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

The definition of kombucha is the first sentence, essentially. I see nothing wrong with the first sentence. jps (talk) 01:34, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Agree. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 01:38, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
I agree, the first sentence is perfectly fine now. If everyone is fine with it the way it is, let's not add any extraneous clauses back in. TlonicChronic (talk) 15:21, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
  • The reason to include the health claims in the definition is to mirror multiple strong RS and not downplay that iffy aspect of this stuff. I suspect that since kombucha has become popular in the west, editors here are unaware of its history. Even Britannica says "Kombucha, beverage made of fermented green or black tea, usually consumed as a health food". But if people want Misplaced Pages to be coy about this aspect then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Bon courage (talk) 15:29, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
    "consumed as a health food" is a different statement from "purported health benefits". TlonicChronic (talk) 15:34, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
    But it's nice of you to admit your edits are directly meant to lower people's consumption of the product. TlonicChronic (talk) 15:35, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
    Please don't make such very stupid comments; you have been alerted this is a WP:CTOP. Bon courage (talk) 15:37, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
    Yes. And contentious topic require proper citations that aren't misused. TlonicChronic (talk) 15:42, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
    There's literally an entire paragraph about this in the introduction of the article! Also I agree with you about the quality of TlonicChronic's comments but please could you just ignore them instead of collaborating with them to create enormous walls of pointless bickering? 100.36.106.199 (talk) 02:46, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: The Microbiology of College Life

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 January 2024 and 11 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Esy32 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Jason.DeLaCruz1313 (talk) 00:30, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

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