| Revision as of 19:31, 29 June 2015 editHiDrNick (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers7,096 edits →Personal attacks and threats from Tarc: move on← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 16:22, 7 January 2025 edit undoBusterD (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators44,869 edits →The actual content that led to this dispute: stress | ||
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| == Cross-wiki harassment and transphobia from ] == | |||
| |format=%%i | |||
| ], a known transphobic editor from pt.wiki, is after his actions led me to leave that wiki permanently. He has also harassed me on Wikimedia Commons. I don't know what to do anymore. I just want to edit about transgender topics in peace. This is severely impacting my mental health. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
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| :You don't seem to have notified the other editor. This is mandatory and this section may be closed if you fail to do so. Use <nowiki>{{subst:ANI-notice}}~~~~</nowiki> on that user's talk page. Additionally, you don't seem to have provided specific diffs demonstrating harassment. Please do so. --] (]) 13:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
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| ::On pt.wiki, DarwIn proposed the deletion of articles I created about transgender topics ( and ), using transphobic arguments, including misgendering and questioning the validity of transgender children. After translating these articles to en.wiki, he is , again focusing on his personal transphobic beliefs - as it shows, he doesn't even know how DYK works. He insisted multiple times trying to include his transphobic comment on that page and has just edited it again. On Commons, for extra context, DarwIn unilaterally deleted images related to these articles, despite being clearly involved in the dispute. | |||
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| ::Again, I just want to collaborate with trans topics in peace. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
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| :::We can't help you with pt.wikipedia.org or with commons, only with en.wikipedia.org. Please provide specific diffs for en.wikipedia.org. --] (]) 13:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
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| ::::Yes. However, context is important. This is harassment that began on pt.wiki, has spread to Commons, and is now here. The history has been provided, but, sure, I can provide the diffs instead. He has unilaterally and , despite this being not how DYK works. This is because he really doesn't know, as he only sporadically edits here and only came back to harass me. is explicitly transphobic and doesn't focus on the article itself at all. After his comment was reverted by me, saying that I shouldn't call it transphobia, despite it being transphobia. After being reverted again, . I asked him to , but . | |||
| |minkeepthreads= 4 | |||
| ::::I just don't want to be targeted by that editor here. I've left pt.wiki in great part for that reason. I just want to edit about transgender topics in peace here. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
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| :Looks like yet another cross-wiki troll by this user. Already , the account is now promoting their POV here, including spreading lies, hideous slurs and baseless accusations against me like "known transphobic", after two of their creations were taken to community evaluation at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for lacking notability. The user is also a known sockpuppeter, at the Portuguese Wikipédia. In any case, I'm not interested in pursuing this case in yet another project apart from the strictly needed, so do as you please.] ] 13:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| |key=d85a96a0151d501b0ad3ba6060505c0c | |||
| ::I have been blocked on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for contesting that transphobia was called "valid criticism" on ANI and on Commons for literally nothing. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:28, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| }} --><!-- | |||
| :::Questioning a women that declared her 4 year old son as trangender after he refused to play with cars and Marvel puppets and preferred what his mother calls "girl stuff" doesn't fit in any reasonable definition of transphobia, a word which whenever anyone criticizes you at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages and elsewhere. In any case, I don't think this is the place for this discussion, so this will be my last direct answer to you you'll see in this board. ] ] 13:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
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| ::::And here's explicit transphobia. It's her '''daughter''', no matter how much you hate the idea of trans children existing. The story you've told is also completely distorted. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
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| *'''Comment''' I simply don't want this editor targeting me with transphobic stuff here after he target me on pt.wiki (and left it permanently in great part for that reason) and Commons. I am considering taking medication because of these events. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:45, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Antifeminism == | |||
| *:*'''Comment''' I would suggest Darwin review ]. If the child uses she/her pronouns we should not be referring to her with he/him pronouns. ] (]) 15:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:@] I would suggest you to recall we ate talking about a 4 year child whose social gender was chosen by their mother after the child refused to play with what she calls "boy toys", such as toy cars and Marvel puppets. If that's not enough that this kind of gender prejudice was already abhorrent and condemned even in the generation of my babyboomer parents, one of the first things we teached as LGBT activists in the 1990s was that our parents don't own us nor our sexuality or our gender. So please let's refrain from doing that kind of suggestions when what is in question is the gender identity of a 4 year old attributed by their mother. Ok? ] ] 15:29, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::@], the bottom line is that ''you don't get to question that.'' As a complete stranger to that child you have no right to do so, plus this is '''not''' the place to even enter into that discussion. How does complete strangers on the internet talking about a child's gender do them ''any'' good? This isn't the place anyway so please just follow guidelines, which have been put in place for a good reason. ] (]) 15:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::I questioned the mother, not the child. I've no idea why we are discussing this here, anyway. ] ] 15:42, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::We're here because this "questioning" appears to be bleeding into transphobic harassment. I would support an indef based on edits like this ] (]) 15:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:The story told above is completely distorted to fit the transphobic's narrative. Simon223, if you want to get the full story, read ]' page or read its sources (with the help of a translator if needed). <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 15:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::I would like to suggest we follow MOS regardless of people's personal opinion of early childhood gender expression. ] (]) 15:38, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::Rephrase that as mothers opinions on their 4 year old baby gender expression. ] ] 15:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::Darwin - I suggest you drop whatever agenda you have, treat other editors with respect, and comply with our MOS (including ]) - otherwise you will be blocked. ]] 15:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::Sure, if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so. ] ] 16:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::Just so everyone knows, the facts are being quite distorted here. It wasn't really an imposition — her daughter, did not want to play with "boy toys", even when being forced by her mom. That's why the mom said she plays with "girl toys" and everything else. The references on said articles weren't thoroughly read, apparently by everybody here. | |||
| *:*::::::Adding to this too: DarwIn, in some edits to the article in the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, added "quotes" on the word trans and some other parts of the articly, as if was his duty to judge if the girl is trans or not. Anyways, I think what happened in ptwiki stays there. | |||
| *:*::::::And I want to make clear that I'm only stating the things that happened so everyone knows. I do not support blocking him. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 16:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::Four year olds are generally not considered babies. You really need to drop this - and probably to avoid editing in the ] area.] (]) 16:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::I would suggest a '''topic ban''' is imposed. ]] 16:09, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::I would '''support''' a topic ban from ]. ] (]) 16:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::Given that much of what they've been saying is about living people I think we would need to expand this to at least cover all other BLPs until such a time as they have demonstrated that they actually understand that the BLP policy applies to non-article spaces on wiki as well as articles. Overall this seems more like NOTHERE than something which a topic ban can remedy. ] (]) 16:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::::Topic ban from GENSEX and BLP, broadly construed, is fine for me. ]] 16:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::::I do understand this Misplaced Pages rules on BLP. Isn't that not enough for you? ] ] 16:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::::Given your comments here and at DYK, you clearly do not. ]] 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::::::You seem to have missed the part when I very clearly stated there that I retired myself from that DYN debate. ] ] 16:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::@] nice try, but I don't edit on that topic, anyway. Let's calm down and enjoy the Christmas season. ] ] 16:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::This is the opposite of the attitude you need to adopt if you want to remain an editor in good standing. Remeber if you didn't edit on that topic we wouldn't be having this discussion, we're here because of edits you made in that topic area. ] (]) 16:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::::Then get your facts right, as I never edited any biography on that topic here, at least that I can recall. ] ] 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::::You fundementally misunderstand the scope of ] and the concept of topic area as well. ] (]) 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::::::Look, I'm at a family gathering and I really have nor time nor patience for this kind of endless debates, specially on culture wars topics. I've already retired from DYN yesterday but you seem to insist on pursuing this kind of Salem witch hunting here, but really, I'll not be anymore part of that. Roger and over, happy new year. ] ] 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::::::I think you may be getting different editors confused, I was not a participant at DYN. I did not pursue you to here. ] (]) 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::::::::it was a collective you. ] ] 16:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::::::::The collective you did not pursue you here either. Only the OP appears to cross over. ] (]) 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::I noticed this yesterday but intentionally didn't mention it since I felt there had already been enough nonsense. But since DarwIn is still defending their offensive comments below, I'd note that the child was 4 years old in 2019. It's now 2024 and they've evidentally seen a medical professional. If at any time they express a desire for a different gender identity we will of course respect that whatever her mother says; but at this time BLP full supports respecting a 8-9 year old and not treating her as a baby. ] (]) 22:49, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::None of this is relevant. We follow sources and ]. There is obviously no Misplaced Pages position on when someone is or is not a "baby" and should have their self-identification reproduced in their biography. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 12:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :They cannot be trusted. Above they said "I'm retiring myself from this topic" and yet has continued to post. ]] 16:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::I've continued to post where? ] ] 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :I've already walked away from it yesterday, why you're insisting on that lie? ] ] 16:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::You are continuing to post here, ergo you have not "walked away" from it, have you? ]] 16:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::@] The issue here is not whether you are right or wrong. The issue here is that you are violating a community guideline. That's it. Either you stop or you will end up getting blocked. I have ], and as a consequence I simply stay far away from those articles or discussions. You should too. -] (]) 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::How can I get out of this endless cycle, if each time you ask me to stop and I say I already stopped yesterday, you came back chastising me for having answered again? That's not fair. ] ] 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Simply post a note at the bottom of the discussion stating that given your respectful disagreement with parts of MOS:GENDERID that you will voluntarily avoid any articles or discussions where that is, or may become, an issue. -] (]) 16:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Which discussion are you talking about? Now I'm confused. Can't you be more clear? ] ] 16:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::@] This one. -] (]) 17:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::@] I've already done it, but you keep writing below it, so it's not in the bottom anymore. ] ] 17:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::@] Easiest way to defuse this is to post a '''bolded''' and outdented statement at the very bottom of the this discussion stating you understand MOSGENDERID and will avoid pages or discussions where it may become an issue, and that you will avoid as far as possible, interacting with Skyshifter. If there are other issues here, I have no comment on those. -] (]) 17:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Sure, here it goes again: "if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so" ] ] 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::That is not an appropriate statement, it has your bias/agenda throughout it. Very concerning. ]] 18:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * Heres the main point I can see RE "Cross-wiki harassment." If DarwIn claims they do not regularly edit this topic space and had not previously participated in DYK discussions how did they come to find themselves there just in time to oppose the contribution of an editor they had extensive negative interactions with on another wiki? ] (]) 16:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:that's old stuff, I already posted a note there retiring from that space yesterday. I'm really puzzled on what all this fuss is about. ] ] 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::This isn't about the transphobia, this is about the harassment (they are seperate by apparently related claims). So how did you find yourself commenting on that DYK? ] (]) 16:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I expressed my disagreement with that note, justifying with my opinion, and there's not even any misgendering issue there, AFAIK. Not sure if expressing that opinion here is forbidden or not, but in any case I've posted a note retiring from it already yesterday, so I've no idea what more do you want. ] ] 16:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::And how did you become aware that there was something to disagree with? ] (]) 16:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::precisely because we are currently in the process of evaluating the notability of that bio and association she created at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, so it's just natural that related issues on other wikis get monitored too, that's part of the process. You don't agree with that evaluation, and that's perfectly OK. To each Misplaced Pages their own stuff 🤷 ] ] 16:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::Please link the diff from portuguese wiki where the DYK for this wiki came up. ] (]) 16:59, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::it's the wikipedia articles created yesterday that we are evaluating, not any kind of DYK note. ] ] 17:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::How is this a related issue then? It sure looks like you followed this particular user around ] (]) 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::@] no, I followed the articles, as they were also created here yesterday. Is that so hard to understand? ] ] 17:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::Because of edits like this . ] (]) 17:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::answering an accusation of being a dictator after flushing away the copyviios she uploaded. What's the problem? ] ] 17:19, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::No, that diff is the undo. Thats you edit warring apparent harassment onto someone's talk page on another wiki with a kissing face as the edit summary... In that context this does look like cross wiki harassment. Do you have a better explanation? ] (]) 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::::Just answered the troll there with another, as I was on the middle of something else. Yes, I know, not the nicest thing to do, but whatever. And why are we discussing Commons here now, anyway? ] ] 17:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::::We're discussing cross wiki harassment, that makes edits on any wiki relevant to the discussion. You appear to have been harassing them on commons and then followed them here to continue the harassment because a temporary block there (which you appear to have had a hand in) prevented them from being active there. You absolutely can not do that. ] (]) 17:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::::::I ''answered'' a troll, if there was any harassment was from that account towards me, not the opposite. Please don't invert the situation. ] ] 17:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::::::Your edits on enwiki had nothing to do with trolling or other behavioral issues from that account, if your edits on enwiki were to address valid concerns informed by your experience on other wikis we would not be having this discussion. It was also you restoring your comment which they removed from their talk page, thats you trolling them and it makes their dictator claim look not like trolling but rather accurate. ] (]) 17:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::::::::I confess I've no idea why we are still having this discussion, as they were just that. But for the 50th time, these interactions have stopped long ago, and for a similar amount of time I've devotedly accepted and committed to all your rules. ] ] 18:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::::::::In my opinion we're still having this discussion because you are stonewalling, perhaps its a language barrier but you don't come off as trustworthy or engaging in good faith. ] (]) 18:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| I believe it may help too, if Darwin will promise to avoid interacting on main space with Skyshifter. ] (]) 17:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| I've been trying to improve the ] article, because I think the current one is very bad for many reasons (it's very biased in tone, it doesn't accurately reflect its sources, and it's sloppy in general). There has been a huge resistance to this from a few editors though, who clearly want to leave the article in its current state, are unwilling to work cooperatively, and instead dismiss all criticism I have of it as original research, which lacks sources. Now I've tried to explain to them repeatedly that I disagree with this, because the criticism I had was criticism of the article, not of which information it should contain, or which sources it should use. They completely ignore this though, and instead keep repeating the same thing over and over again. | |||
| :Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. Not that I ever interacted with her there AFAIK, anyway.] ] 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Now I've been trying to assume good faith, and kept assuming that they were misreading what I wrote, but it's getting so weird that it's becoming really difficult to maintain this. See this thread ], and especially {{user links|Fyddlestix}} second reply. The section was about something I removed, because it was unsourced, but which got reverted back. I tried to discuss this, and explain why it wasn't supported by the sources, but instead they went on pretending that I was trying to ''add'' information, which wasn't supported by sources. There's just no way that such a reply can be made in good faith to the what I wrote above it. It's becoming clear enough that they're just intentionally being impossible, probably either to frustrate me to a point where I would give up, or provoke me into questioning their intelligence, so that they can block me over personal attacks.] (]) 17:56, 17 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :I think Darwin should avoid interacting with Skyshifter on all spaces on en.wikipedia.org. It's clear Darwin has made Skyshifter feel uncomfortable, and I don't appreciate it.]] 17:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::@] I absolutely agree with that, I'm not doing any sort of interaction with that account anymore. I'm still answering here because you keep mentioning me. ] ] 17:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Since you "absolutely agree", then I will take your comment here as acknowledging a voluntary ], broadly construed, as in effect.]] 18:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::@] yes, that's correct. ] ] 18:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * I think a one-way interaction ban between the editors would be for the best here. While I think there is some merit to a Gender and Sexuality tban, as some of Darwin's recent edits appear to be about ] in the topic area, I believe the interaction ban would solve most of the issues raised here. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 17:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:which "edits"? The 1 or 2 comments in the DYK section? ] ] 18:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::All your edits related to the subject, both here and on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 18:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::@] You're evaluating my edits on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages to punish me ''in the English Misplaced Pages?'' ] ] 19:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::When there is cross-wiki harassment, then yes, your activity on other wikis is relevant. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::@] Can you explain how my general edit history in wiki.pt is relevant in any way to an accusation of cross-wiki harassment? ] ] 23:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Would recommend that Darwin ''walk away'' from the general topic. This would avoid any need for topic bans. ] (]) 16:20, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :This appears to be basically a content dispute, although it may be complicated by stubbornness and incivility. I suggest that you ask for ]. A mediator may be able to get the parties to explain and work on their differences. If the other editors do not agree to formal mediation, then the next step for dealing with conduct issues would be ] under the gender-related sanctions under ]. But I suggest that mediation be tried. ] (]) 18:06, 17 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ;Clarification | |||
| ::I see this less as a content dispute and more as a problem of disruptive editing on Diadaev's part. This user has been lobbying for changes to the article on ] for a couple of weeks, but their talk page posts are based on their own subjective opinions & reasoning, rather than on RS ( is probably the worst example). They've been prodded for sources and asked to stop making subjective arguments several times, and they've been given a for failure to cite sources and disruptive editing. | |||
| *Hello @] - and others. Please recall that my opinion was specifically over the declaration of the child gender by her mother at or before her 4th birthday, by her mother own account based on classical gender stereotypes. It's specifically about that. I've no way to know what gender the child is or will eventually be in the future, and gladly accept whatever she chooses - as I would if she was my own child. I've eventually been harsher than needed in the DYK comment because that specific situation where a minor is extensively exposed with full name, photographs, etc. by her parents on social networks, newspapers and whatelse is generally condemned in ], to the point of eventually here. Obviously Misplaced Pages has nothing to do with that when it comes to the spread of information, but in my view - obviously wrong, from the general reaction here - exposing the child in yet another place, let alone wiki.en main page, was a bit too much. | |||
| *As for misgendering, I am one of the founders and former board member of ], which after 30 years still is the main LGBT association in Portugal, though not an active member for many years for moving away from Lisbon, where it's headquartered. For more than 30 years I've been on the fight against homophobia and transphobia, not specially in Misplaced Pages, but on the streets, where it was needed in the 1990s here in Portugal, when the whole LGBT thing was just starting and most people couldn't even tell the difference between a drag queen and a trangender woman. I was beaten up, lost my 2 front teeth on homo/transphobic street fights (the first one at 18 years old, for publicly defending from booers in the audience a trangender girl which was acting at a local bar )- and whatelse. I never had even the least impulse to misgender any of the many trangender people that always have been around me, and the few situations where that may have happened were online with people that I knew for years as being one gender, and took a while to sink they are another, because online there's not the ever helping visual clue. So it's kind of disheartening to be treated like this in a strange place by people I don't know just because I expressed an (harsh, agreed) opinion defending the age of consent for children, and condemning their parents interference on that. | |||
| *The TBan is not very relevant for me, as I seldom edit here and despite the activism of my past days LGBT is not my primary interest on Misplaced Pages, but I'm considerably saddened by the misunderstandings, bad faith assumptions, false accusations that have been told here about me, though eventually the flaw is not in the whole group that has their own rules and culture, but in the newcomer which don't understand it well in all its nuances, as was my case here. | |||
| *Finally, as the misunderstandings continue, I never came here after Skyshifter, which as is public and she knows, I've always considered a good editor and helped several times with articles and what else (which is also why I felt confident to answer with a 😘 when she called me a dictator in another project, though it was obviously not the most appropriate way to answer it, and for which I apologize to Skyshifter). In this last row I wasn't even directly involved in her indefinite block in wiki.pt, despite being mentioned there. I didn't even touched the articles she created here on ] and ] or addressed she here in any way. I came here because of the DYK note, which, as said above, I thought was an exaggerated exposition for that case here on the English Misplaced Pages. As you extensively demonstrated here, it is not, and I defer to your appreciation. Despite that, after this whole situation I've not the least interest on interacting in any possible way with Skyshifter, with or without IBan. | |||
| *And that's it. Hopefully you'll excuse my verbosity, specially in such a festive day, but I felt this last clarification was needed. I also present my apologies to all those who may have felt offended by an eventual appearance of cockiness or defiance which I inadvertently sometimes transmit in my speech. I'll return here if specifically asked to, otherwise I'll leave the debate for this community. Again, stay well, and have an happy new year. ] ] 17:58, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ===Proposed Community Sanctions=== | |||
| ::In the comment Didaev refers to above, I was simply trying to impress upon them the importance of citing sources - I was hoping that engaging with some sources might refocus the conversation and make it less subjective. But Diadev has chosen to raise the matter here rather than do that. So I don't see how mediation is going to help unless Didaev is willing to make some sourced, non-subjective arguments. ] (]) 22:22, 17 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| I offered DarwIn an off ramp above and their response was to reiterate their views on a highly controversial subject and their responses to concerns about their interactions with Skyshifter have been entirely unsatisfactory. This looks a like a pretty clear case of IDHT revolving around their strong disagreement with one of our guidelines. Frankly, I came very close to just blocking them after their response to my suggestion. This discussion has already dragged on long enough. For purposes of clarity, nobody is required to agree with all of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. And yes, gender is a highly controversial subject. I have my own disagreements with parts of MOS:GENDERID. But as the old saying goes, themz the rules until they aint. Editors are free to disagree with community P&G, but are not free to ignore or flout them. It's time to settle this. | |||
| '''Proposed''' DarwIn is topic banned from all pages and discussions relating to ] broadly construed and is subject to a one way IBan with user Skyshifter, also broadly construed. -] (]) 18:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::On the one hand, a mediator would insist on citing sources. On the other hand, if ] is ignoring advice to cite sources, then that may be good-faith editing that is nonetheless disruptive editing. If this is seen as a conduct dispute, it is my experience that ] works more efficiently than this noticeboard. Has Didaev been notified of gender-related discretionary sanctions? ] (]) 23:42, 17 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' -] (]) 18:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Good point, it looks like they hadn't been warned about the DS. just now. ] (]) 01:47, 18 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *:I note that Darwin has agreed above to the IBan. -] (]) 18:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' - He's already agreed to avoid that general topic area in future & Skyshifter. ''PS'' - If a t-ban is imposed? limit it to six-months. ] (]) 18:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:Why should the community accept voluntary TBAN and IBAN which can easily be reneged on when we can impose it as a community sanction and ensure that any violation is actionable? '']''<sup>]</sup> 01:08, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support topic ban and IBAN''', both broadly construed - sorry GoodDay but I do not trust this user's words, and so we need a proper sanction. ]] 18:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. Just read through the above and ''good grief''. - ] <sub>]</sub> 18:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *I said above I would support this proposal if it was brought forward, and I do. ] (]) 18:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :Why it should be a one-way iban? Skyshifter started this topic with the characterization of their opponent as "a known transphobic editor". A normal editor would be blocked just for writing this. I am not sure a iban is needed, but if it is needed it must be mutual. ] (]) 18:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Surely Didaev is editing in good faith, but unfortunately is ''still'' not getting the point about how all of our work on the article must be based on the summarization of reliable sources. Didaev is offering criticisms of the article which are personal criticisms. This is not helping the situation at all. What is needed is for Didaev to refer to reliable published sources when making arguments about what to change in the antifeminism article. Until that happens there's not much influence that Didaev can have on the article. Lacking any leverage based on what is found in the literature, the talk page complaints by Didaev are ultimately disruptive. ] (]) 03:15, 18 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::That's actually a fair point. -] (]) 19:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::It seems to me that the 'reliable source' doctrine is being abused here to skew the page towards a particular point of view. On the original discussion page, Binksternet ''et. al.'' have explicitly stated their belief that the only valid sources of information about "antifeminism" are feminist scholars. This must lead to a one-sided characterization. ] (]) 05:57, 19 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::It would be more compelling if DarwIn weren't so committed to misgendering a child out of some apparent ] impulse. ] (]) 19:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| {{od}} I'm not sure that's a fair characterization - as far as I've seen, no one has argued that feminist scholars are "the only valid sources of information" about anti-feminism. Rather, they've argued that there just ''isn't'' all that much (or any) academic literature about antifeminism itself that takes a "pro" antifeminist perspective. ] (]) 15:41, 19 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::@] You have been misjudging me - It was , actually, if it's worth anything. ] ] 19:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *JudahH, that's a load of bollocks and you likely know it. You are misrepresenting the opinions of Binkster&co, and doing so badly, both here and elsewhere, to the point that my ability to AGF is rather stretched. ] (]) 00:15, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::The child, according to the reliable sources I have seen, uses she/her pronouns. Your changing your comments from he/him to they/them does not bring even that one comment in line with our MOS. I am not interested in whether you, in your heart of hearts, are a transphobe. I am concerned that your editing in the ] area is disruptive in a way that will likely make trans editors less comfortable working in the en.wiki project. As a result I think you should avoid editing in that topic area. Furthermore I think you should leave Skyshifter alone as you have not provided a satisfactory explanation for your participation in the DYK thread. ] (]) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::Try not to view everything through biased glasses, Kevin. If you're finding it hard to assume good faith, it's probably because you started out assuming bad faith instead. I've been polite and constructive in my (attempted) contributions to that article; just because I don't share your politics doesn't mean I'm trying to vandalize the page. | |||
| :::::::@] OK, I didn't knew the child used those pronouns when she was 4 years old, I commit to use them here if I would ever talk about that issue again (which I definitely will not, anyway). ] ] 20:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :: Here's a direct quotation if you need one: "Feminist scholars are a very highly respected source of information. Scholars in general are what we look for when a topic is difficult to define. There's no problem with referencing feminist scholars who are in fact the ones who study antifeminism the most. Basically, the only scholars of antifeminism are feminist scholars." | |||
| ::If they weren't before they are now... ] (]) 18:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::Premise 1: Scholars are what we look for as sources a topic such as this, in preference to other sources. | |||
| :::Ok, to be clear, I '''oppose''' a one-way IB. I do not find this argument convincing. ] (]) 19:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::Premise 2: Only feminist scholars on this topic exist. | |||
| ::I agree. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 12:46, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::Conclusion: We look for feminist scholars as sources on this topic, in preference to other sources. | |||
| * '''Support''' this seems like a reasonable set of restrictions, I hope they can stick to it ] (]) 18:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::Whether the reasons for preferring "scholars" are sound or not, the outcome to relying primarily on them given these premises is an article written from a single point of view, rather than a balanced one.] (]) 04:00, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *:@] I never edited in that topic here, as far as I can remember, not is it a primary interest I have, so it certainly will not be difficult to hold, even if it comes out to me as incredibly unbased and unfair. ] ] 19:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Your logic is faulty. The conclusion is not that feminist scholars are looked for in preference to other sources. We do look for scholars in preference to other sources generally speaking, and it is the case that a majority of scholars and other high quality sources writing about antifeminism do so from a pro-feminist standpoint. That is not at all necessarily a problem. Misplaced Pages doesn't shoot for some sort of vacuum point of view. If a majority of high quality sources about a subject reflect a certain perspective, than a properly written Misplaced Pages is likely to as well. That's a feature, not a bug. ] (]) 04:09, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *::Your edits to DYK were within that topic area. ] (]) 19:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::@] And those were the only ones, and I immediately after being reverted. How does that configure the kind of systematic behaviour that would justify a topic ban? I really apologize, but in this moment the way I see this is a kind of Salem witch hunt, with people accusing me of all kind of slurs and abominations, even when they are in directly opposition to . You seem to be punishing me for my opinions and the way I (supposedly) think about a very particular issue (if 4 years old have self determination or not), which comes out to me as really unfair and unworthy of a project like this. ] ] 20:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::How is that in direct opposition to your stance there? Your edit summary says "forgot that English has the neutral pronoun, which is useful in these cases. fixed." which suggests that it is in line with that stance ] (]) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::@] I'm sorry, I seem to have missed your point. What is wrong with correcting the gender to a neutral pronoun in such a situation? ] ] 20:13, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::This edit might help you get the point. At this point your conduct on this page is becoming a serious behavioral issue... you can't lie, sealion, obfuscate, and misdirect endlessly without consequences. ] (]) 20:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::@] I can fix those too as I did yesterday, if you think it's important 🤷🏽♂️ ] ] 20:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::You are not supposed to edit comments after they have been responded to in that way. But by fix do you mean change to "she" or do you mean change to "they"? ] (]) 20:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::@] Change to "she", following this wikipedia rules, certainly. So if I can't fix them, what do you propose instead to mend it? ] ] 20:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::Given the sheer quantity of lies and obfuscations from you (the truth is apparently a last resort) the only fix I can see is a formal one, a topic ban and an interaction ban. Up above you so easily went from "I never edited in the topic area" to "those were the only ones" that I don't even think you understand that you were caught in a blatant lie. ] (]) 20:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::@] There was not any "lie", please stop ]. I thought you were referring to the main space only, which I believe is a fairly assumption to do, if the used word is "editing". ] ] 20:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::At best you're saying that you lack the competence on enwiki to adhere to any voluntary restrictions. This will be my last comment unless pinged by an editor other than you, my apologies that this has been an unpleasant process for you. ] (]) 20:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::Darwin has a long history of editing in ] albeit generally less controversially. . ] (]) 20:35, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::@] That's documented with the sources and all, and the proposition there was that the tupinambá was gay, not a woman. It's not even gender related. So you desperatly want something to justify a TB, bring it on. I'm fed up with what seems to be a circular and nonsense discussion on this board, where whatever I say is a lie and with bad intentions. I don't even edit here in the gender topic, but if it makes you happy, bring it on. ] ] 20:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::::DarwIn ] covers gender ''and'' sexuality. You have been saying you aren't interested in the topic area. It appears to be one of your main areas of interest on en.wiki. ] (]) 20:43, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::::@] Thanks for clarifying that. Fact is that I don't edit much here. I've occasionally added or fixed some LGBT related stuff in the past when it crossed my main interest, History, but it certainly is not a primary interest, despite being LGBT myself. ] ] 20:49, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per Bushranger. ] ] 20:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. As GoodDay noted, the problem appears to already be addressed. If the problem persists then go for a sanction. Look we let people argue their point here and it does seem like most of the support is because editors feel Darwin isn't contrite enough, not that they expect the issue to continue. Note that I'm not weighing in on any interaction bans. ] (]) 20:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Oppose''' per Springee. This entire issue could have been dropped days ago when DarwIn acknowledged he would walk away, and instead seems to have been needlessly escalated again and again and again. ] ] 20:51, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{Ping|Pppery}} days ago? I think you might have misread the time stamps. ] (]) 00:57, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' the TBAN; personally I'd have indeffed several outdents sooner, but here we are. No opinion on the IBAN. ]] <small><sup>Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!</sup></small> 23:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' Given what's happened, I think an enforceable topic ban is better than Darwin stepping away. IMO the BLP issues is far more concerning than gensex one so I'd support a BLP topic ban as well, but it seems likely a gensex one would be enough to stop Darwin feeling the continued need to express their opinions on a living person. Since Darwin is going to step away anyway and barely edits en, it should be a moot point and if it's not that's why it's enforceable. As for the iban, while I don't think Skyshifter should have described Darwin in that way when opening this thread, I think we can accept it as a one time mistake under the stress of apparently being followed and given questionable way Darwin ended up in a dispute here with someone they'd had problems with elsewhere I think a one-way iban is justified. ] (]) 23:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:@] What " continued need to express their opinions on a living person"? My single-1-single comment in the DYK? ] ] 23:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::{{replyto|DarwIn}} Demonstrating the problem. You claim you only did it once elsewhere but anyone reading this thread can see you did it here so many times ], ], ], ], ], ]. I think it represents maybe 1/3 of your comments here (whether counting comments or text). There is absolutely no reason for you to go around expressing your opinions on two different living persons to say you're going to walk away. And if you need to express your opinion on living persons to defend your actions, you clearly have no defence. ] (]) 00:22, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::So let's get this straight. You are proposing a topic ban on me because of the personal opinions on (the eventual lack of) selfdetermination of 4 year old children that I expressed here in this board, despite that my editions related to it were limited to a 1-single-1 comment on that issue on the DYK page? This is really looking like ]. I tell you, my personal positions are my personal positions, and I'll not change them to please you, even if if costs me a Topic Ban for barely mentioned them on this project a single time before this topic was opened here.] ] 00:28, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::Holding an opinion ≠ expressing an opinion. Only one of these is causing an issue. ] (]) 00:44, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::I expressed it only 1-one-1 time here almost 1 day before being recalled here to explain it, and after voluntarily saying in the same page that I would not express it again there. Now I'm being punished for explaining it here too, after being requested to do that? This is insufferable. ] ] 00:55, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::], I think at this point, further comments from you will not be helping your case. If this is insufferable (and being summoned to ANI generally is), it might help to step back from this discussion and only respond if editors ask you specific questions. When discussions get this long, often the small benefit from continuing to comment does not outweigh the cost of continued misunderstanding among editors. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> | |||
| *:::::::{{Ping|Liz}} Thank you for the wise advice, I'll be doing that.] ] 03:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::{{reply|DarwIn}} you can think whatever you like about living persons. I have a lot of views on living persons which I would never, ever express on wiki for various reasons including BLP. Also you defence is bullshit. No one ever asked you to make accusations around living persons to defend your actions. And yes it is fairly normal that editors may be sanctioned if they feel they need to do such things about living persons on ANI as part of some silly argument or defence. I recall an editor who was temporarily blocked after they felt the need to say two very very famous extremely public figure living persons (and some non living) were sex predators to prove some point at ANI. And I'm fairly sure a lot of people have said and feel those people are sex predators including some Wikipedians I'd even probably agree in at least one case, they just understand it's not something they should be expressing here. ] (]) 23:02, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::For clarity, what I mean by my last sentence is that I'm sure quite a few people would agree with the statements. I'm sure such statements have been made elsewhere probably even in opinions printed in reliable sources (I think the editor did link to some such opinions). I'm sure even quite a few Wikipedians would agree that one or more of these people are sex predators, I think I'd even agree with it in at least one case. However most of us understand that our personal views of living persons, especially highly negatives views are generally not something to be expressed on wiki except when for some reason it's important enough to the discussion that it's reasonable to say it. When you keep saying something and in the same paragraph acknowledge the English wikipedia doesn't consider your opinion relevant, then it's clear there was no reason for you to say it. You're still free to believe it just as I'm still free to believe all those things about living persons that I would never express on wiki. ] (]) 06:08, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :* '''Support''' - Darwin's replies and conduct here indicates that he simply doesn't get it. | |||
| :]] 02:52, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :* '''Oppose''' - Per GoodDay and Springee. ] (]) 05:47, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support''' TBAN per Bushranger. Darwin has already agreed to the 1-way IBAN — <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">]</span> <small>(he/him; ])</small></span> 10:56, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Given the history at pt.wiki, I think this is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. There should be no interaction between the parties, which Darwin has agreed to.] (]) 14:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' The agreed-upon IBAN takes care of the ongoing issue. While the edits related to the child were problematic, this doesn't appear to be case of significantly wider problems in this topic area, and the full scope of ] may very well be surprising to editors who don't do much in that area. I don't think there's been near enough here to no longer ]. ] (]) 15:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * <s>'''Support''' TBAN/IBAN</s> '''Weak support TBAN/Strong support IBAN''' - ] suggests that queerphobia is inherently disruptive. calling a queer activist a "troglodyte", the previous history of abuse on pt.wikipedia, and the current responses from Darwin indicate ] behavior. ] (]) 16:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The conclusion in ''this particular case'' is that feminist scholars are looked for in preference to non-feminist sources—perhaps not ''because'' they're feminist, but the outcome remains the same. Re this being a feature, I respectfully disagree with you. If all of the sources used on a topic reflect a particular perspective, even if they are high-quality sources, the article is skewed because there are high-quality sources on one perspective but ''no'' sources for the other perspective. Rather, we should represent both perspectives from the best sources available. I further disagree that academic sources are necessarily better than primary sources—i.e. people's direct characterizations of their ideologies in their own words, but that's the less important point, I think. ] (]) 04:36, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::This reasoning looks like a case of punishing somebody for political and cultural views rather than behaviour.] (]) 16:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::You may disagree with it, but it is explicitly a feature of Misplaced Pages. Our articles are intended to "represent.. fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." Further policies emphasize that in doing so, we should consider the quality of a source, and avoid giving equal validity to all apparent viewpoints. You might disagree with any of these things, but they are all long established features of Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages, as a project rejected the idea of ] long long ago. ] (]) 04:56, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::Followung editors from wiki to wiki because of transphobic beliefs is disruptive, and creepy. A boy named sue is a transphobic song by the way. ] (]) 17:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::This is what I mean by "abuse" of Misplaced Pages's policies—maybe I should look for a more neutral word than that, but the claim that the only sources of significance on a political topic are the ones from a particular side basically favors one viewpoint over the other. This is not a neutral point of view. You sound like you're comparing one whole side of a political debate to "flat earthers" or something. Again, '''there's a vast difference between the opinions of academic scientists on a topic of science and the opinions of academic feminists about the views held by their opponents'''. The whole point of NPOV, as I've understood it is that when it comes to divisive issues that editors can't come to consensus about, the fairest approach is to give and source the views of both sides, and let the reader draw his conclusions. Not to refuse to even offer the viewpoint of one side on the pretense that it has never been described by so-called "valid" sources. ] (]) 05:11, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Oh dear. Do you think I should have a siteban, or would a TBAN suffice?--] (]) 18:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::If I was named after a joke about misgendering people, I'd avoid defending crosswiki culture warriors worried about misgendering people. You may just really be into Shel Silverstein. ] (]) 19:26, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::"A Boy Named Sue", made famous by Johnny Cash sixty years ago , is a transphobic "joke about misgendering people"??? Oh my god, some people need to get out in the real world more. ]] 23:58, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Thank you for your valuable input. As always, you have advanced the conversation in a helpful way EEng. ] (]) 00:05, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::No need to thank me. It's just part of the service. ]] 01:19, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::OK boomer. ] (]) 01:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::Well, you certainly put me in my place with that one. ]] 21:14, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I understand. Speaking up for the witch is a sign I too might be a witch. I'll try to be more careful in future.] (]) 20:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Misgendering BLPs is disruptive. A Johnny Cash related username is not. Suggest the IP ] - while we may disagree with Boynamedsue regarding their interpretation here they have done nothing wrong. ] (]) 21:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::No. It's stopping a disruptive editor from continuing to edit disruptively. ] (]) 17:17, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{ec}} NQP is an essay. Essentially it's an op-ed piece. It does not carry any force in the realm of ], and the views expressed there are controversial. (See the essay's talk page.). IMO words with some variation on "phobe/phobic" &c. are being routinely weaponized by people on one side of hot button cultural/political debates as part of an effort to demonize those on the other side of these debates. As such, I am inclined to view the use of such terms as a specie of WP:NPA. -] (]) 16:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::fair enough, i'll remove my vote for TBAN. | |||
| :::sidenote, I have no qualms with labeling a behavior as queerphobia. I don't think calling out discrimination or disruptive attitudes is inherently a vio of NPA. ] (]) 16:53, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::... I am indecisive.. I'll add weak support for TBAN, I still think the topic area should not have folks who are disruptive like this. ] (]) 17:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Pervasively misgendering a child based on the belief that a child cannot express a desire to transition is a form of transphobic behavior. If it was a similar comment made about a BLP on the basis of religion or skin colour ''there would be no mention of WP:NPA''. Misplaced Pages is generally good about handling racism. It is a perpetual stain upon the reputation of Misplaced Pages that it's culture ''continues'' to worry more about the feelings of people who take transphobic actions than of the victims of the same. ] (]) 17:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :* '''Oppose''' as unnecessary given the commitments already given. ]] 11:29, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{hat|1=Let's not. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC). <small>Edited to include edit conflict comment. ] (]) 15:56, 3 January 2025 (UTC)</small>}} | |||
| ::::I am assuming you haven't spent much time in places ] where religious belief and persons of faith are not infrequently and quite openly subject to ridicule. Racism is a subject upon which society has happily come to more or less full agreement. Gender remains an extremely controversial subject with one side regularly resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other. I shall refrain from further comment out of deference to WP:FORUM. -] (]) 21:25, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Fringe ideas get ridiculed at FTN regardless of whether or not they are religious... That so many fringe views are also religious is more a result of the supernatural, transcendental, and spiritual being inherently fringe than any problem with FTN. Religion which is rational and explainable isn't religion any more after all. ] (]) 21:43, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Thank you for affirming my point. -] (]) 21:59, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Your point was that "Gender remains an extremely controversial subject with one side regularly resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other." Right? Like for example the ] or is that not the side you were thinking of? ] (]) 22:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::No. I was thinking of people who regularly insult and ridicule religious belief and those who hold to it. Something which based on your comment, does not seem to be a source of concern to you. That said, this discussion is veering deep into WP:FORUM territory and I am going to move on. Have a good day. -] (]) 22:16, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I don't think I've ever seen any of those people suggest that trans people are demons, or did you mean demonize in a way other than literally saying that the other side is demonic/satan's minions? Becuase that would be highly ironic... ] (]) 22:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::I am reaching the uncomfortable conclusion that you are attempting to be deliberately offensive. And for the record, you are succeeding. Good day. -] (]) 22:27, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::You weren't aware that a cornerstone of the gender controversy was religious conservatives resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other? Because that is well documented in reliable sources. I don't think you're the one who is supposed to be offended here, you're the one saying what appear to be extremely offensive things and are being asked to clarify what you meant. ] (]) 22:35, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::{{ec}} I think a significant point here is that while we may tolerate some degree of forumish and offensive comment about gender or race or religions from editors when they are restricted to largely abstract comment or even when they reference other editors, it's far more of a problem when the editors make offensive accusations about living persons especially when these are completely unrelated to any discussion about how to cover something (noting that the editor continued to make the comment even after they had noted how the English wikipedia treats issues). So for example, if someone says a specific religious figure is delusion or lying in relation to how we treat their testimony that might barely be acceptable. When someone just comes out and says it repeatedly for no reason, that's far more of a problem. Especially if the figure is someone barely notable and not notable (as was the case here for one of the individuals each). ] (]) 22:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| {{hab}} | |||
| {{hat|1=This ''is'' affairs of other wikis. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:10, 31 December 2024 (UTC)}} | |||
| *'''Comment''' This is definitely not the ideal place to discuss the subject since the whole problem originated with pt.wiki, but since the editor came here asking for help (for the right reasons or not), I will draw attention to the case of the admin accused of transphobia. This is not the first time that DarwIn has been singled out due to his comments on the subject (he has already given several examples of this here), but there is an where the editor has already been criticized for making such comments. There, they were also celebrating Skyshifter's ban (DarwIn commented something like "as a man he was 100%, after transitioning he became unbearable" to refer to her). As much as they try not to link the group to the project, to use this chat you need to associate your Misplaced Pages credentials, so I am concerned that pt.wiki admins could be seen spreading speeches against minorities in an official space of the project, since Misplaced Pages is the target of attacks for investing in equity and diversity. In addition to this comment, the admin was also extremely rude and crude towards a ]. | |||
| :Again, this is not the ideal place to comment on these issues, but I suggest that the case be submitted to Wikimedia if any intervention or something more incisive is necessary. The local community can accuse me of anything for writing these words, but I am concerned about the escalation of editorial harassment within that space. | |||
| :::::There's the issue of whether academic sources exist on the other side, see ]. ] (]) 04:42, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :PS: The editor was mocking this discussion in the Telegram group while I was writing this. ] (]) 01:57, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I didn't see this comment when I added the two paragraphs below, but the first one was basically addressing your point, Ian. I see a fundamental difference between more or less objective questions of science or fact, where it's reasonable to give academics the authority, and questions of people's political views, where subjectivity reigns, and being an academic doesn't mean that one should be the ''only'' source used to characterize political views that he disagrees with. I would add, that this is a case where using primary sources would be entirely reasonable, I believe, as no inferences need to be drawn from them—simply the statement that "such and such political group describes its aims so and so". ] (]) 05:04, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Came back after a month with no edits for this? It's quite clear Jardel is taking something personal with DarwIn here. Or he doesn't have anything to do at the moment. And he didn't have such great writing and narrative in his mother tongue, now is writing perfect, well written English. That gets stranger considering he's partially blocked in ptwiki for some beefing with other editors (] in portuguese)... Quite strange, to say the least. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 03:14, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::And yes, by "quite strange" I am talking about maybe ]. Nobody comes after a month without edits (that was preeceded by some other months before some 5-ish edits), to make an "accusation" based on unfounded arguments, especially after being blocked precisely for beefing and attacking other members of the community in his homewiki. Such a hypocrisy, a user banned for beefing accusating another user of attacks and using the word "transphobia" so vaguely. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 03:23, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::As I expected, the group participants started making accusations against me (that's why Eduardo G. appeared in this discussion) and wanted to insinuate that Skyshifter is writing this text, perhaps wanting to provoke some kind of retaliation later. First, I appreciate the compliments on my writing, which was 100% done by Google Translate; I think Google's engineering is to be congratulated. Second, I'm only here on this page because I noticed the links to this discussion in the Telegram group itself and decided to contribute with what I've been reading for a long time with great disgust. I didn't need to bring much, Darwin himself made a point of making abject comments in this discussion, but if you want, I can bring some screenshots of what they were talking about in the group. Third, I did go 1 month without editing here because my focus is not on en.wiki but on pt.wiki, where I make regular edits. I find it strange that you entered this discussion without refuting any of the arguments above, thinking that bringing up my tarnished "reputation" changes everything that was written by me or in the group. I believe it must be embarrassing to participate in a group where they are celebrating the sanctions that Skyshifter will suffer (thinking that place is a "private club") while at the same time you from the "public side" to the same editor, simulating virtue. In any case, my goal here is only to reinforce that there is indeed materiality in what Skyshifter said with more evidence and once again I recommend that the discussion be evaluated by the Wikimedia team knowing that attitudes that demonstrate prejudice against minorities go against the project's investments in equity, diversity and equality. ] (]) 03:52, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I will not pursue any retaliation. I'm just stating what I know of this case, and I even supported Sky when the edits were being made. People are celebrating because all of this discussion was brought to even another wiki by her. But I understand you might've written this text, and will not take the subject further. If anybody needs anything, please read the message below. Cheers. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 03:54, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::So, I don't disagree with your argument about the sanctions she's passing on the other project, unfortunately. As for "not pursue any retaliation", I don't think that's what you mean by the phrase "4 successful DBs in a row is not for everyone." directed at me. ] (]) 04:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::@] You're wrong, twice. First, it wasn't me saying that. It was NCC-1701, and my user in TG is Edu. And at no point did I agree with NCC's messages. And secondly, the "four DBs in a row" wasn't in anyway directed at you. It was directed to Bageense, who opened 4 block discussions in the last 2 or 3 days and all of them were successfull. You are distorting the messages to condone your erroneous narrative. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 04:22, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Well, if I am "distorting messages" to "tolerate" my narrative, anyone who wants to evaluate can join the group and read the messages posted there or see the pt.wiki discussion against the Projeto Mais Teoria da História na Wiki and talk to its ] to see what their opinion is on the matter. I may not be a perfect person, but what I see with great displeasure (coming from those who are "in charge of the gears") is not positive for the project. ] (]) 04:35, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Joining the group the community would then have no doubts about your intents and distortion of facts. You didn't deny the two things I said above — you know I'm right, you can't bend the facts this much. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 04:54, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| '''As a ptwiki user''' that know what's happening but talked to both sides of the discussion throughout it: This whole discussion started as a beef between Skyshifter and DarwIn. Skyshifter didn't accept some changes DarwIn made to an article "of her" (quotes because articles doesn't have owners. I respect her pronouns), and when discussing with DarwIn, called the whole Portuguese Misplaced Pages project a sewage ()/], thus being banned and the ban being endorsed on the ] <small>(in portuguese)</small>. The discussion was based on the references for the article, was solved in the ptwiki with an outburst from Sky, and that was it. | |||
| ::::''edit'': I should add that there's a difference, IMO, between an article about, say, some contested fact of science, where the academic perspective can be reasonably assumed to generally have more validity than the less academic ones, and an article about people's political views, where being an academic does not make one more of an authority on the opinions of some group of people than belonging to that group. | |||
| This whole problem was brought here for a single reason only: Beef from Skyshifter with DarwIn. A single change or a single opinion on a DYK shouldn't be reason for a TB or IBAN anywhere in the world, especially considering that it was a difference interpreting the references. I know that my statement won't change anything, as there is an apparent "consensus" on TBanning and IBANning him, though I wanted to make things clear for everyone. | |||
| ::::I should also add that I'm not editing in bad faith here, and I believe that as long as we clarify what we're talking about, we can come to a consensus that everyone is happy with. As I just commented on that article's talk page, I believe that the root reason this article has been provoking such strong opinions is that it currently covers entire ranges of ideologies (antifeminism, and, by implication, feminism) as if they were a single, even an organized ideology. This gives rise to misleading implications about both sides. | |||
| I am totally open for questioning regarding any of my statements above, and I will supply you with any proof I have and you need. Just ping me here and if the inquiry/proofs are extremely important, please leave me a message on my ] (). It can be in English, just for me to see you need me here. Cheers. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 03:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Respectfully yours, ] (]) 04:45, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| JardelW is a user who was banned from the Portuguese Misplaced Pages due to his detestable behavior. This individual used the same Telegram group that he is now criticizing. The editor was banned from this group due to his behavior, in which he called respected users of the community . And DarwIn is one of the administrators of the group where he is banned, so you can already imagine why he is here. Now, once again he is trying to destabilize the community by defending an editor who called the entire project a sewer and made unproven accusations against an administrator. At this point, the account is practically banned and the article that caused the discord has its deletion or merge defended by several editors. By coming here, JardelW and Skyshifter are, in a way, stating that the entire community is prejudiced. Yet another offense enters the list as proof of Jardel's destabilizing behavior. Furthermore, this user to carry out the same destabilization by contesting on meta the banning of IPs, a consensual decision among hundreds of editors. And when he was still blocked, in an attempt to intervene in the Misplaced Pages domain, where he is banned, simply because he did not agree with the deletion of an article. And this without presenting any evidence. It is clear that Jardel's objective here is to take revenge on the community, and he will be punished for it. ] (]) <!--Template:Undated--><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added 04:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| *Didaev is a new user and an 100% ] — they've edited only ] and its talkpage. It does look like they've come here to ], and I will consider a topic ban if they should persist with their agenda to the point of disrupting the talkpage. However, there's no need for anything like that yet, as they haven't edited since receiving the discretionary sanctions alert. Perhaps they're thinking about it and will return more willing to listen to experienced editors. Well, see the ], I suppose, but it never hurts to assume the best, especially of new users. ] | ] 12:11, 22 June 2015 (UTC). | |||
| :It is pretty clear thay the intents of Jardel here are disruptive. Your comment hopefully leaves no doubt to the community. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 04:53, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :As I said above, I am not a perfect person. I may have used foul language to address some editors in a moment of anger, but I felt vulnerable and hurt by editors I held in high regard, and I apologize for what I wrote in the past. Likewise, I do not think it is right that a social channel that is reported as "linked to Misplaced Pages" is being used as a bar where people can say whatever they want, especially when it comes to prejudiced comments against minorities. At no time did I label all of them, only one of them demonstrated that she was doing so. If I happen to receive any sanction for this discussion, and knowing that bringing issues from pt.wiki here is not ideal, I will receive it for doing the right thing, because I want something to change for the better in a project that I have dedicated so much time to contributing to. I may be prevented from editing on Misplaced Pages, but if what I bring here helps to change something, I will be happy. ] (]) 05:01, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| {{hab}} | |||
| :] - this is your second edit ever, and your account was just created today - how did you get to this ANI post? ] ] 05:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::I saw a discussion in the group and created the account to not appear as an IP. ] (]) 05:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::@] The objective of the channel is to be a more relaxed place. And it's not official, . Angry moment? Are you sorry? After your block, you attacked editors on a social network, as attested by a CheckUser: . And there are no prejudiced comments. That's a lie. Where are the links? And how much time have you devoted to the project when all you do is attack others? Enough of this nonsense. I ask that an administrator evaluate the conduct of this account. ] (]) 05:16, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::I didn't realize the discussion was closed. Sorry. ] (]) 05:18, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Supporting both IBAN and TBAN'''. Someone who actively believes in misgendering should not be allowed into this area when they have already demonstrably made another editor uncomfortable. The snarky reply to GiantSnowman does not convince me they would respond well if another editor brought up a similar concern in the future.--] ] 07:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *Can't we give this child and her mother some privacy? What is it about gender issues, as opposed to other medical or developmental issues, that seems to give everyone a right to comment? Let's just report what reliable sources say and leave it at that. ] (]) 18:38, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::If the mother had wanted privacy for her child, writing a book which makes it possible to identify her and know intimate details of her biology for the rest of her life, while documenting her transition step by step for hundreds of thousands of instagram followers, seem strange choices. I don't feel there are any privacy concerns here, that horse has long bolted, and we had nothing to do with opening the door.] (]) 09:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::BLP requires we take great care what we say about living persons regardless of the wisdom of their decisions. This is hardly the first time it's come up where both in articles and in discussions we've required editors obey BLP even if there is a lot of nonsense out there which arises in part from decisions subjects have made. Editors can do that stuff on Reddit or 4chan or wherever they want without such requirements. If editors cannot follow our BLP requirements, they need to stop editing either voluntarily or involuntarily. ] (]) 10:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I don't think BLP covers things that the subject puts into the public domain about themselves or, when we are talking about talkpages, personal opinions on the morality of things they reveal about themselves.] (]) 13:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::talkpages def are covered by BLP as per the policy page.and the policy gives wide latitude about what the subject may have redacted if they object to info, even if they had previously or somehow otherwise placed that info in public domain. | |||
| :::::concerns about privacy have to weigh against dueness but arguing the book gives dueness to try to be internet sleuths and discover and identify a child is probs not gonna pass the smell test.] (]) 13:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::The woman's book names the child, and photos of her are regularly published by the mother on instagram. There is an interview with the mother in Brazilian Marie Claire giving the child's full name and photos. I would suggest not much "internet sleuthing" is required here. Misplaced Pages, and I include Darwin in this, has (rightly) much more concern for her daughter's privacy than she does.] (]) 15:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::The mother may have decided to publicise things, but the child certainly hasn't. ] (]) 21:42, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Children cannot consent, their parents can. ] ]<sup>]</sup> 21:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I would totally agree, but that is irrelevant here, nothing Darwin did was related to revealing the child's identity. He criticised the mother in strong terms on talkpages and this is what the BLP argument comes down to.--] (]) 23:08, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::That's incorrect. He's clearly disputing the child's identity. He might feel that's justified but Misplaced Pages isn't the place for that crap. Whatever the wisdom of whatever the mother did, there's zero reason to think the child is helped in any way by an editor denying their identity. As I've said before, if at any time the child says what the mother said was wrong or otherwise indicates they have a different identity from what's been presented then we'll change our article. But until that happens, we should treat things as they are and not allow editors to question the child's identity. I'd note that DarwIn also kept talking about the child's age in a very misleading way to the extent that I eventually felt complelled point out their bullshit. I did not want to talk about the child's age here on ANI, it shouldn't relate to anything. But what can we do when DarwIn keeps uttering nonsense about the child's age? ] (]) 13:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::I don't feel disputing the validity of the process by which the mother came to the conclusion the child was trans is covered by BLP. The description she made of the process is public knowledge, if a person wants to say "she shouldn't have done it like that" then they are not making any claims about the person at all, merely about whether, in their opinion, their actions are correct.--] (]) 15:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::Ask yourself whether Misplaced Pages would even entertain this discourse if the identity was anything other than a trans one. The answer is a flat no. Darwin's interpretation of the mother's interpretation of her daughter's identity is inappropriate for the project, is disruptive and is openly antagonistic toward trans editors. I think nothing more can be gained from endlessly debating whether we should pretend there is a carve-out to BLP requirements for children within oppressed minorities. ] (]) 17:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support TBAN''', no comment on IBAN. . ] ]<sup>]</sup> 21:55, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. Editors in this topic area can and often do disagree on the underlying issues, which often helpfully ensures that all such material on Misplaced Pages follows our policies and guidelines. However, the responses to Ad Orientem's request and various replies above shows that the proposed remedies would be appropriate given the BLP issues in play here.-- ] - <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 22:28, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose any sanctions''' I’m sorry if I’m interfering in something I’m not involved with, but I’ve been watching this discussion and I think it’s needlessly toxic. What I’m seeing is a misunderstanding of some inappropriate ] on a hot-button issue sparking a dispute that turned into “DarwIn is a transphobic bully” which I don’t think is true. I think the two main parties should simply avoid each other voluntarily and the situation will quickly de-escalate. ] (]) 05:09, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support TBAN''', indifferent to IBAN. Having followed this topic for a few days, it's convinced me that a topic ban for both GENSEX and BLP is entirely appropriate in this instance. My initial scepticism passed after reading responses from the editor and realising that the understanding of BLP policy appears to be even more incomplete than I originally thought. The deceleration from the editor to avoid such topics voluntarily is irrelevant, as combined with the lack of understanding over the concept of broadly construed, commitments have already been made and broken within this discussion alone. So respectfully, I believe this ] type editing, whether it is attempting to ] or simply ] discussions, is nonetheless disruptive and uncivil at times. ] (]) 18:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' per Dronebogus. I'd say "we're better than this" if I believed it. ] (]) 19:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' ''Skyshifter'', if anything, is harassing Darwin in this instance. Darwin has agreed to an IBAN, never mind that he's expressed desires to descelate what has become the longest thread on AN or ANI as of writing. ''']]''' 22:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' This is a pretty explicit case of POV harassment. Their replies to the topic likewise do not give me faith they will adhere to a self imposed limitation. Darwin claimed to have agreed to step away before the ANI was created, but the edit history shows that Darwin continued editing the page up until an hour before Skyshifter created the ANI. Thus, there should be an actionable sanction. I fail to understand how it is Skyshifter doing the harassment at all as Cubby suggests. Darwin even called skyshifter a troglydite () to boot. ] (]) 15:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Oh my fucking god. This whole thread is nuts. I wish I could pardon my french but this is CRAZY. | |||
| :<br> | |||
| :Never in a million years would’ve I expected myself to be responding to a thread like this but I mean here I am. | |||
| :<br> | |||
| :Although Skywing’s concerns of harassment are valid especially if he’s being tracked across Misplaced Pages’s website, as far as I know, there are no guidelines that state someone can be punished for actions on another Misplaced Pages. | |||
| :<br> | |||
| :'''I support''' the notion of Darwin being topic banned from gender related articles (especially trans ones), for the simple fact that his conflict of interest with transphobia has clearly caused a disruption to the Misplaced Pages community. | |||
| :<br> | |||
| :'''I oppose''' with the IP-ban because if anything this '''SHOULD’VE''' ended a week ago when Darwin voluntarily said he would not edit those pages as well as avoid any interaction with Skywing. | |||
| :<br> ] (]) 15:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::No one has proposed an IP Ban. The Aforementioned 'IBan' is a one way interaction-ban. ] (]) 16:28, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I understand, I meant that. Apologies. I misunderstood what it stood for. I would prefer if the IBAN was two way instead of one-way. Seems hardly fair in my honest opinion when both I suppose are equally responsible and to share the blame. This is a messy situation so putting the blame on one when both are equally responsible seems hardly fair. But that's my two cents. | |||
| :::NOTE: I don't condone homophobia or queerphobia or whatever the term is (I'm not really informed enough in this situation to know what Misplaced Pages calls it so I'm adding both just in case) so please don't take it as me defending either side as that is NOT my intent. | |||
| :::Cheers, <br> ] (]) 01:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::This reply reminded me of the essay ]. ] (]) 01:15, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Lol. It is accurate. That literally is what it is I suppose lol. ] (]) 01:19, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' any sanctions against Darwin per Dronebogus. I wish we were better than this, but like TBUA, I don't actually believe that we are. ] (]) 20:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' both TBAN and IBAN. Their behaviour at DYK might have been mitigated if they had taken responsibility here instead of doubling down. A TBAN and IBAN will reduce disruption. '']''<sup>]</sup> 01:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:After I left my comment above and after providing Darwin with a CTOP notice they commented at ] accusing me of coming to their talk page to "{{tq|further troll me with this nonsense warning}}". '']''<sup>]</sup> 01:39, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' both. I'm baffled that some people above are saying "well, they agreed to stop voluntarily" - did they not read the massive post Darwin made above? It amounts to an extended "I'm sorry that you were offended." Trusting that someone will avoid the same mistakes in the future on their own requires that they understand and admit to those mistakes, which is obviously not the case here; how can we trust that an editor will abide by a self-imposed restriction when they won't even meaningfully acknowledge the errors that made that restriction necessary? Therefore, sanctions are necessary. --] (]) 03:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === ] taking matters from another Misplaced Pages to seek revenge. === | |||
| == User: Stemoc == | |||
| {{hat|1=100% affairs of other wikis. - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| {{atop|result=This entire subsection is about Eduardo Gottert casting aspersions on Skyshifter and providing no diffs or evidence of this "revenge" except for statements about what is going on on another language Misplaced Pages which have no bearing on what occurs here. I'm closing this now before this ]s on to Eduardo Gottert and editors start proposing a block for personal attacks. Baseless counter attacks are generally dismissed at the English Misplaced Pages ANI. Please do not reopen this section. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 09:00, 31 December 2024 (UTC)}} | |||
| On the 29th of December, ] started an AN/I based on a claim that ], a sysop at ptwiki, was cross-wiki harrassing her. To make up those claims, she used as a single proof, of him editing on a DYK nomination . AFAIK, DYK nominations are open for debate. | |||
| She accused him of transphobia, a very harsh word, over some 5 edits on the same page, and all the other arguments in her accusation were from the ptwiki with absolutely no relation to the English Misplaced Pages, and she tried to "force" that it was a cross-wiki harrassment, when it wasn't. The sole reason for that AN/I is a beef from Skyshifter with DarwIn. | |||
| After continually being reverted by this user, I've decided that it would be best to take this to the Administrator noticeboard. Over the past several months, the user Stemoc has continually reverted my edits, for the sole reason of being disruptive. I think their latest statement made in an edit summary clearly states that they do not wish to act in a civil manner, and simply wish to violate Misplaced Pages policy outlined at ]. The stated "UNDO long-term cross wiki vandal POV pusher whop uses the wiki for "self promotion"." This has continually been his reason, no matter the situation, in this case it was the addition of a different photo on the ] article which is non-controversial. (Note: There was a previous discussion at where it was agreed that I would not add photos that have already been uploaded for the sole reason of having my name in the title of the image, which I have ceased from doing. I have not broken this warning so that should not be part of this discussion.) But regardless, the user still seems to want to continue to revert my edits across several different projects, and was previously. | |||
| But all of this happened only, and just because of her banishment for the portuguese wiki. She is the cross-wiki harrasser in this situation, as she came to a project where DarwIn hasn't got nearly as many edits as his home-wiki and most of his edits are on discussions or category/commons related, to try blocking him and thus tarnish his block log. | |||
| In a calm, measured response to a comment I left on his talk page, part of was to "stop acting like a pompous cry baby.." His edit summary also indicates his unwillingness to act in a civil manner, and simply to be disruptive and revert edits without discussion. Quoting directly from ], "Wikihounding is the singling out of one or more editors, and joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, in order to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work. This is with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress to the other editor. Wikihounding usually involves following the target from place to place on Misplaced Pages." As recent as a few moments ago, the user began participating in in order to gain a consensus on which image would be best at ]. The user then ] me stating "its Not a Communist regime either so we won't keep using your poor images all the time" to a comment I left in a related section where people began voting, despite policy that states ]. In that discussion, it was found that a different image was best to use, and I did not revert or try to disrupt that decision. | |||
| This is all for revenge of some articles that are being debated and will be either deleted or merged with other articles, and especially over her permanent block on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, after calling the whole platform a sewage ( and in ]), ] over other users and using ] and ] to revert back the articles (one of her meats is currently being blocked from ptwiki too, see it ], with all the proofs). The ] taking place at the moment has 10 administrator votes in favour of the block, and absolutely no contrary opinion whatsoever. | |||
| The user has had similar complaints left on his talk page, after he told another user to "get glasses" when trying to add a photo he uploaded in . Here is part of the exchange... | |||
| Despite some not-so-good arguments from DarwIn in the AN/I above, it is more than clear that the reason for the opening of the said AN/I was '''personal''' and for '''revenge'''. I'm open to any questions regarding this topic, as there is plenty of evidence to sustain my claims. All of this that she's doing would clearly fall under ], here called ] I think, and ]/], and in the AN/I above she's commiting ], repeating the eye-catching word "transphobia" over and over, without sustaining her argument accordingly, seeking to block a sysop at other 3 projects and rollbacker here, with the sole objective of tarnishing his block log, just for revenge and self-fullfillment. | |||
| {{cquote|No you '''LISTEN''', you are the '''ONLY PERSON''' in the WHOLE of WIKIPEDIA that has a problem with the '''GOOD IMAGE''' being used. I tried solving it amicably but you decide to change the '''IMAGE''' again for the '''UMPTEENTH TIME''', you '''REFUSE''' to a have '''ANY DISCUSSION''' but continuously '''KEEP''' changing the image, the post to have a discussion BARELY lasted '''48 hours''' BEFORE you changed the IMAGE yet AGAIN... You are a '''VANDAL''' and I will '''NOW REPORT''' you....I wrote those in '''CAPS LOCK''' cause you seem to be blind or something ...}} | |||
| <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 05:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| If that isn't a case against ] then I don't know what is. He has been warned for his uncivil behavior several times already, and yet they just ignore it and begin writing in uppercase and attempting shame others from editing. It also seems that he is doing the same thing that he accuses me of, as he is adding his own uploaded images to articles, without any sort of discussion, whether controversial or not, and most of the time without a reason given in his edit summary. I highly suggest reviewing his edit history, and his talk page. | |||
| :{{replyto|Eduardo_Gottert}} You need to provide evidence when opening an ANI thread, not on request. ] (]) 05:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Other violations that I believe he has made are outlined at ], in response to after I reverted him for reverting me because I made the edit, "Either follow our policies or LEAVE". That statement alone violates #6, which states "Campaign to drive away productive contributors: act counter to policies and guidelines such as ], ], ]." I would also argue he is acting in a ] manner based on his recent edits alone. | |||
| ::'@] The evidences are above. I said if you need any '''further''' evidence, you may ask. All of the necessary evidence are on the request. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:04, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Where's the evidence? What we know is that DarwIn came here despite little involvement and made a highly offensive statement that can reasonably be characterised as transphobic. While I don't feel Sky Shifter should have described it so, better to let others decide, it was entirely reasonable for Sky Shifter to call for action against DarwIn for it. What is your evidence that they did it for revenge instead of for the fact that after a disagreement with DarwIn in a different wiki, DarwIn suddenly appeared in this wiki, one they themselves agree they barely edit, to make a highly offensive statement that Sky Shifter reasonably felt was transphobic. After doing so, they then appeared on ANI to make similar highly offensive statements were they made offensive accusations against living based on their own opinion. ] (]) 06:13, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Honestly, the argument is pretty clear above. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:14, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::If you agree you're wrong then please withdraw this ANI. ] (]) 06:20, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I did not agree in any place that I am wrong. I just stated that the evidence is pretty clear above, with all the block discussions and diffs needed for understanding the problem. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:23, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Your statement was very unclear. You said "the argument" which I interpreted to mean my argument. If you're still claiming your argument is clear, then please explain how it can be when part of your argument is it was unfair for Sky Shifter to go around saying "transphobia" when many of us agree that even if it was unnecessary, it was not unsupported given the comments DarwIn was making do seem to be transphobic. ] (]) 06:29, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::As we were talking about my evidence, I think saying "the argument" clearly refer to me. And as to the reason for the opening of this ANI, it's because the revenge seeking of Skyshifter. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:33, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I wouldn't say it doesn't considering as I said, one of the reasons your argument was flawed, but you didn't address that in any way. Nothing you've said above or since has explained why you're claiming Sky Shifter using the word "transphobic" is evidence for "revenge" when it's a reasonable characterisation of what DarwIn said. ] (]) 06:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::{{ec}} I would add it's very unclear what you thinking you're adding that wasn't already considered above. In the above thread a 1 way iban on DarwIn seems to be getting serious consideration. A two way iban seems to have been rejected based on the assessment that whatever the wrongs with Sky Shifter's approach, it wasn't serious enough to warrant an iban. The fact that Sky Shifter was in a dispute with DarwIn on other wikis, and DarwIn was involved in their blocked is likewise not a secret, part of it was stated by Sky Shifter when opening the thread and the rest was stated by DarwIn. The sock allegation likewise. So what do you think you're adding to the discussion that wasn't already considered and seemingly rejected by the community above? ] (]) 06:40, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :It is time for a ]. You already said all of that above. You seem to have been canvassed here from a discussion outside of this wiki. Go back there and let them know cross wiki harassment will get you blocked here. ] (]) 05:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::I added more evidence and context. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::You simply cast aspersions as part of a cross wiki harassment campaign against someone over transgender related issues. You are not here to build an encyclopedia. ] (]) 06:25, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Your statement doesn't even make sense. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:26, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::We can add ] to the reasons you are blocked then. ] (]) 06:28, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Am I? And where am I in violation of ]? <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:30, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I used plain English and you said you couldn't comprehend it. ] (]) 06:41, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :I thought it was pretty well determined in that prior ANI thread that DarwIn's edits and statements absolutely were transphobic and bigoted. ]]<sup>]</sup> 06:07, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Again, if this isn't a case of someone overstepping the line of civility, engaging in disruptive editing, campaigning to drive away productive contributors, and intentionally hounding someone's specific edits, then I don't know what is. | |||
| ::The reason for the AN/I opens is still the same, revenge. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:15, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *I've read many of the posts on the Portuguese wiki, and it is pretty clear that the Skyshifter's complaint above is a deliberate expansion of drama from there. The Portugese wiki is not Uganda, people do not get banned there for being Trans, and former admins don't get banned without causing a lot of disruption. It is clear these two users really strongly dislike each other and need to stop interacting in any way.--] (]) 06:59, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:People obviously doesn't get banned for being trans. She was sysop there, commited some errors, but stayed there even after 5 months of being on estrogen. And the community knew it. What caused her block there was calling the project a sewage and then outbreaking and attacking other users. I suggest they get a two-way IBAN, at least, not the one-way as proposed on the other AN/I. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 07:33, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :I would add that unless I'm missing something, the block discussion on the Portugese Misplaced Pages seems to have been started about 30 minutes before the ANI thread . It has no contributions by DarwIn . It is theoretically possible I guess it somehow factored into the motivation of Skyshifter opening the ANI thread, but this seems extremely unlikely. There's a good chance Skyshifter wasn't even aware of it when opening the thread. In other words, there's no reason to think Skyshifter was even aware they were likely going to be permanently blocked from pt at the time of opening the thread although they did say they weren't going to return. ] (]) 07:00, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Here are links to edits where the user has reverted me in a hounding manner. {{diff|Donald Trump|667763948}} {{diff|United States presidential election, 2016|667763724}} {{diff|Hannah Ware|660692251}}{{diff|Emily Kinney|660692089}}{{diff|Lauren Cohan|660692018}}{{diff|Michael Cudlitz|660691915}}{{diff|Michael Keaton|660692686}} {{diff|United States presidential election, 2016|667762560}} {{diff|Donald Trump|667748179}} {{diff|United States presidential election, 2016|667747877}} | |||
| ::She opened an NI, ptwiki equivalent of AN/I against DarwIn with crazy arguments. You can see it ]. It was prompty closed, and she was very well aware of the consequences she would face, and of the opening of the block discussion, and clearly opened the AN/I because of that reason. The block discussion started at 1130 UTC, and the AN/I was posted at 1300, at a time that Skyshifter had already taken notice of the discussion, as you can see . <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 07:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *This is ''very blatantly'' a tit-for-tat. As mentioned above there is the distinct smell of fishiness about it, and {{tqq|as she came to a project where DarwIn hasn't got nearly as many edits as his home-wiki and most of his edits are on discussions or category/commons related, to try blocking him and thus tarnish his block log}} - yes, the editor who has ''three FAs'' on en.wiki "came to this project" to do this. Suggest this be promptly closed as I hear a ] inbound. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:09, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ] (]) 13:20, 20 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *:I am not saying she isn't an avid used of English wiki. I just stated that she took ptwiki matters here for revenge and self-fullfillment. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 07:31, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :Expect an accusational response from the user being reported saying that I'm adding my own photos as self promotion. This is not the case, and is not a violation of any policy anyway. As of recent, I have made sure to include clear edit summaries stating why I am changing a specific image, and created discussions in order to come to a consensus on which image would be preferred. Stemoc is simply acting in a disruptive manner no matter what discussion takes place, and no matter what my edit summary reasoning was for changing a specific image. ] (]) 13:32, 20 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *::If you aren't asking for any sanctions against Skyshifter, then why did you open this sub-section, just to sling some mud at her? Give it a rest already, you're just creating more drama than is necessary.]] 08:34, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I think that the background of this dispute is very relevant. Obviously, neither Skyshifter or Darwin should face any repercussions here for behaviour on pt.wiki, but it isn't possible to understand what is happening here without discussing what happened there. For me, having read what happened over there is the main reason I wouldn't yet TBAN Darwin, and would call for a two-way rather than one way interaction ban.--] (]) 08:50, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| ::Before I begin, please remember that ] was previously known as ] and he changed his name yesterday just so that he can knowingly continue to enforce his images into articles without setting off any alarm bells..Infact, just before changing his name, his last few edits involved and , he continues to do the same. The use has over the years continually used wikipedia for ] to an extent of removing better images for his own poor ones just so that he can use wikipedia to promote himself financially. The Quote he linked above was to another editor that is available on my talk page and it has already been solved "amicably" but he has linked it here trying to make people think that my comment was targeted at him..... I'm not in the habit of other people's comments about him removing other images and replacing them with his.. He even me on Wikimedia Commons to not upload his images from flickr which are under a free licence and as per Commons policy can be uploaded for use on wikipedia...The user has a long history of violation ] and just by going through the users contribution history here, it will all be made clear. I'm NOT ] the user as he claims, I just found his "vandalism" unbearable and decided to take action by reverting them as he refuses to follow policies in regards to discussing his changes. Its either '''HIS''' images be USED on those articles or '''NO IMAGES''' and he will blatantly revert anyone else who decides to use a less controversial or better image...] goes both ways and if admins refuse to warn and discipline this user who has previously been reported here in May, then this will be ongoing. The user is abusing our ] as was discussed in May on my ]. He may not be a paid editor but he is using Misplaced Pages for Financial gain and that is against one of our policies as photographers get paid for the use of their images as tou can see and quote | |||
| {{hab}} | |||
| {{cquote|Gage Skidmore is a professional photographer currently based in the Phoenix metropolitan area. He began his career covering politics in 2009, covering the U.S. Senate campaign of ophthalmologist Rand Paul. Since then, he has been involved with a variety of organizations and campaigns, including the Arizona Chamber of Commerce & Industry, ASU Center for Political Thought & Leadership, Campaign for Liberty Foundation, Reason Magazine, Western Center for Journalism, and has been published in the Washington Post, Associated Press, Politico, and Forbes. | |||
| == ] reported by ] == | |||
| Media/business inquiries: gtskidmore@hotmail.com}} | |||
| {{atop|result=John40332 has been blocked sitewide. ] (]) 01:33, 6 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| If wikimedia blatantly allows someone to use the site to serve their personal monetary gain then this is not a place I want to be...I have been fighting Spammers and vandals across wikimedia since 2007 and users like him are the worst as they can usually get away with it..........oh and ofcourse you are Gage, do NOT deny it cause whats worse than violators are those that blatantly lie about it--<span style="color:blue;font-weight:bold;font-size:medium;font-family: Monotype Corsiva;">]]</span> 13:53, 20 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :Please do not attempt to destroy my character, you are getting very close to libel with your false accusations. I have never made a penny from my involvement with Misplaced Pages. Your response also screams a great level of paranoia. ] (]) 14:03, 20 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::False accusation?, you accuse me of ]ing you and when i point out that you are using WIKIPEDIA for your own personal MONETARY gain, I'm destroying your character?. You Intentionally enforce your images so that you can tell your "clients" about you work using Misplaced Pages as a reference for your OWN personal and monetary gain and when users remove your pics and replace or update it with one that is BETTER, you revert them cause you want ONLY your images with you name at the END of every image name because you are a humanitarian and you love wikipedia and you are helping the wiki out of the goodness of your heart?, is thats what you are telling me?....Never made a a penny, who do you think uses all the images that get added to wikipedia?, newsites and other websites and I won't be surprised if they pay you for the use of the images, oh and lets not forget, ..Just admit it and stop lying please....--<span style="color:blue;font-weight:bold;font-size:medium;font-family: Monotype Corsiva;">]]</span> 14:18, 20 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::None of what you just wrote is true, I suggest you just stop please. ] (]) 14:21, 20 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Also I'd suggest acting more ] instead of using Caps lock to imply shouting on the administrator noticeboard. ] (]) 14:22, 20 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::], it's not clear to me how ] is financially benefiting from Misplaced Pages. You link to it doesn't refer to Misplaced Pages at all. And then you reference where not only is Misplaced Pages not mentioned but it states {{tq|he posts all of his photos to Flickr under a Creative Commons license, making them available free of charge as long as he’s credited.}} and only charges for-profit publications for his work. | |||
| :::I can see how you could make an argument that Calibrador prefers using photos he has taken over other photos but you haven't presented evidence that he is financially benefiting from donating his photos to Misplaced Pages. <font face="Papyrus" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 14:38, 20 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::That is how publicity works Liz, let put it this way, his images get noticed, he gets called up by someone famous and they ask him to do a 'photoshoot" for which he gets paid and at the same time he has to insure he gets noticed, Flickr is now ranked 130 odd but Misplaced Pages is STILL one of the top 10 websites in the world, so where are you more likely to get noticed?..Previously, when adding image a to articles, he used to add his name into the captions in infoboxes as well..just search through his edits in 2014 and you will find it which is how i actually noticed him in the first place..--<span style="color:blue;font-weight:bold;font-size:medium;font-family: Monotype Corsiva;">]]</span> 15:40, 20 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I never did that, and I have never booked a photo shoot with anyone. How many times do you have to be told to stop making false accusations? ] (]) 15:48, 20 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I have mentioned it on my talk page many times that i use Caps and Bold for "emphasis" only on certain words, I'm not "Shouting"..and also why would you even accept what i said is fact because if it is , and I know it is, it means you have been violating our policies for years and have been getting away with it and you got your named changed just so that its not directly seen as a ] which it is.Note: I havea shitty internet conenct adn moving to https has MADE IT WORSE so i cannot reply here anymore, i have already had 16 edit conflicts on this thread, please take anything else regarding me to to my talk page..I'm unable to post on pages larger than 150kbs (my net speed on enwiki is about 8kbps)--<span style="color:blue;font-weight:bold;font-size:medium;font-family: Monotype Corsiva;">]]</span> 14:49, 20 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::You also used caps on your talk page once because someone "needs to get glasses." ] (]) 14:56, 20 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :*A month ago I reported <s>Gage</s> Calibrador at ANEW so I'm not the only one to have an issue although since that report I've simply given up with the image-removal as I knew one way or another I'd end up being blocked, I still believe <s>Gage</s> Calibrador is using the image-titles as a way to promote himself. –]<sup>]</sup> 14:32, 20 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::*Since that discussion, I have agreed to use edit summaries, discuss, and come to a consensus when changing an image is seen as controversial. ] (]) 14:36, 20 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::*That's great but the image thing ''is'' still an issue - No one would have an issue with your uploads if you just uploaded them as say "X at X.jpg" but surely you can see adding your name on the end of every image you upload does come across as self promotion and people are bound to have an issue with that. –]<sup>]</sup> 14:44, 20 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::*I would note that I do not even link to my Flickr when I upload my own photos, like when others upload my images. If anything Stemoc is the one promoting my photos. ] (]) 14:48, 20 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I'm NOT promoting your images, I'm giving you "attribution" which is according to ] regarding image uploads, so this is "]" as I have not only uploaded one of your images but given you credit as well as added the image to your private ], there is no need for me to do that but i do it nevertheless cause i go by the rules and follow the policies, you don't...your image uploads are always promotional--<span style="color:blue;font-weight:bold;font-size:medium;font-family: Monotype Corsiva;">]]</span> 15:32, 20 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{U|Calibrador}}, you are adding photos with file names such as "William Lee Golden by Gage Skidmore.jpg". If you are a professional photographer, I think such file names are advertising your work. Many professional do contribute some of their images to WP, and in a sense it may be a form of advertising , because they are attributed in the meta data--but we have always regarded this as not just permissible, but a good incentive to get some high quality images. However, putting your professional identity in the file name does not seem like a good idea. I do not work all that much with images,and I do not know if it is against our rules for images, but I personally think that it certainly should be. If you want to avoid accusations of promotionalism, you might want to go back and rename them. ''']''' (]) 03:39, 21 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{moved from|]|2=] (]) 14:12, 1 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| Let me first say that e might have gone a bit off-track. However, having your name in the file name is not against any policies or guidelines (ot terms for that metter). If I wanted I could name a file "File:X at Y (thank you C0mpany Z for this great event).jpg" and intentionally advertise, but that alone isn't proof of any wrongdoing. (In the Creative Commons terms however there is a clause about "titles of works" and that they should be used. If the creator wishes they be names one way...)<br /> | |||
| Back to the issue at hand regarding if <s>{{u|Cometstyles}}</s> Stemoc is violating multiple policies on civility, I would say that this is a clear case. Even if the edits are somehow justified, they are HOUNDing in nature. This should not be acceptable. <small>(There should be a clause like this in 3RR regarding reverting over multiple articles...)</small> <span style="background: turquoise;font-family: 'Segoe Script', 'Comic Sans MS';">(]) ] (])</span> 04:15, 21 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :Its Ok to do that to a few image but that uploader has added more than 8000 images with that byline, just do a simple "" on commons if you don't believe me. This is PROMOTIONAL. When someone adds an article about themselves or add links to their private websites, they are straightaway reverted, warned and in severr cases BLOCKED for spamming..this is one form of spamming..we may have different rules for articles and images but they both have the same outcome...The problem isn't the use of "by Gage Skidmore" tag in all his images, the problem is intentionally replacing other better and current images with his own on MAJOR article to boost his own stand and even without discussion as one user pointed above about the lack of using 'edit summaries'. Josve05, you are aware of my involvement in cross-wiki related spamming and vandalism and there isn't a day where i do NOT delete spamming on the 2 wikis i have adminship on....I see this as "blatant promotional/spamming" and though my involvement on enwikipedia has been limited since i returned (my own choosing), I will NOT turn a blind eye to it cause you may not see it as such but its blatant abuse of our policies....and again, reverting someone who keeps violating our policies does not make me a "Wiki HOUNDER"..I'm reverting what i see as blatant vandalism..the user has even gone to an extent of getting his name changed to make it easier to add his images without anyone pointing fingers..it would be nice if admins did their job as this user has been brought to this board now 3 times over the last 2 months and still has not faced any consequences to this actions...--<span style="color:blue;font-weight:bold;font-size:medium;font-family: Monotype Corsiva;">]]</span> 14:05, 21 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::I think this is a case of "everyone but myself" is at fault, and I'm a "social warrior" for trying to save Misplaced Pages from something that is not against the rules, and I'll keep link ], even though none of what is mentioned on that page applies. Could an admin please weigh in on this situation so that falsehoods aren't spread again? ] (]) 14:21, 21 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::The self promotion policy may see to be only related for articles but it applies to everything on wikimedia, self PROMOTION is self promotion, either your promote yourself, your company, your interests or your stuff, its Promotion and by deliberately removing other people images with yours '''IS''' self promotion...Do I need to make this any more clear?..--<span style="color:blue;font-weight:bold;font-size:medium;font-family: Monotype Corsiva;">]]</span> 15:28, 21 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| I would note that Stemoc is also currently reported at ] for reverting one of the articles five times within a 24 hour span. They were also by an admin for harassment. ] (]) 15:33, 21 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :and more lies, I was neither "warned " by an admin (toonlucas22 is not an admin) but it was a mistake on his part as he was not aware of this thread nor the previous identity of Calibrador and on the 3RR one which Gage Skidmore linked above...and also, I have not violated 3RRand nor do I intend too..--<span style="color:blue;font-weight:bold;font-size:medium;font-family: Monotype Corsiva;">]]</span> 15:56, 21 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::I never said I'm an admin. I just came as an uninvolved editor. --] <small>(])</small> 16:06, 21 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::That part was my mistake, I thought he was an admin. I do have to correct the false statement that was made about 3RR, though, as Stemoc reverted an article to their version five times in a row, within (approximately) a 24 hour span. It was just slightly outside the window, but still applies. ] (]) 16:11, 21 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{Outdent|3}} Yikes! {{U|Bbb23}} just brought the hammer down on ''both'' Stemoc and Calibrador for 24 hours at ]... I'm guessing this one can (and probably should) be closed now. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 17:05, 21 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{vandal|John40332}} – On {{No redirect|:Psycho (1960 film)}} ({{diff|Psycho (1960 film)|1266578685|1265765039|diff}}): account is being used only for promotional purposes; account is evidently a spambot or a compromised account. User's recent edits have been dedicated almost invariably to inserting links in classical music-related articles to an obscure sheet music site. Behavior appeared to be ] and ]. Personal attempts to curb this behavior or reach a compromise were rejected by user. ] resulted in ], despite three other editors informing user that their edits appeared to be spam or some kind of advocacy. ] (]) 08:50, 1 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I'm going to keep this open until Stemoc and Calibrador return from their 24 hour blocks. I'd like to hear some proposals, as there's potentially an issue with Calibrador's behaviour, and in turn there's definitely an issue with Stemoc's behaviour. It would be good to get it sorted out with the minimum of fuss, rather than just closing this thread and having a repeat with either Stemoc or another user raising similar complaints in the next few days and weeks. | |||
| :Not a bot and not spamming, you just keep ] me repeatedly, I cited sources to the publisher of the books in question. You appear to suffer from ] and act like I need your consent to edit the articles you feel that belong to you. You also know I'm not a compromised account, you spam ] on your reverts but you're mostly bullying other editors into submission. | |||
| I'd think the sensible suggestion here would be that Calibrador is either restricted from removing an existing image from a page and replacing it with an image he has taken/uploaded himself unless discussion has taken place prior to the switching of images, and consensus is in favour of the change, or there's a 1RR restriction, so he can make the switch without discussion, but if it's reverted, it needs to be discussed before the edit can be reinstated. If a page lacks an image, then Calibrador can add any image he so wishes. It's important to say at this time that we do appreciate the time and effort he puts into taking and uploading photographs BUT other photographers, both professional and amateur do exactly the same, and in the interests of fairness, we want to see good images from a wide range of different photographers being used on the project, this in turn encourages image contributions from other photographers. Every photographer who takes good images should have an expectation of their images being used by another project and that their images will be chosen fairly, without bias, and on the merit of the photograph and its content, composition and appropriateness for the article. Calibrador's behaviour isn't really allowing that to happen right now. ] (]) 09:25, 22 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :You've been asked to stop disrupting editing https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:CurryTime7-24#January_2025 , and continue to harass any edits that touch "your" articles. | |||
| :You also keep saying I add citation to obscure music sites, just because you don't know something doesn't make it obscure. Additionally, you are the only person raising this as an issue because you're extremely controlling of the articles, you don't own Misplaced Pages and hopefully some other editor or admin can remind you of that. ] (]) 09:23, 1 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Are you claiming that SheetMusicX is a reliable source for these articles? If so then someone (it may be me but I don't guarantee it) should take it to ]. I note that several editors have queried this, not just CurryTime7-24. John40332 is clearly not a spambot or compromised account, so please avoid over-egging the pudding. ] (]) 18:19, 1 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::It is reliable and listed with other , it's the homepage of the Canadian music publishing house Edition Zeza, their books are part of the , shows their books in libraries around the world etc, I shouldn't even have to dig this far because 1 editor decided he ] Misplaced Pages. The links I had included provided relevant information about the articles I was editing (orchestration, dates, duration etc). Cited information from a publisher of said work, which is exactly what ] suggests doing. ] (]) 18:41, 1 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::The editor's history does seem suspicious. From 2014 to 2023 they made a total of 24 edits to article space, almost all of which were to ] and ]. Then after more than a year of no edits, in the last 5 weeks they have made 38 edits to article space, of which all except three added a reference to sheetmusicx.com. This is a commercial site that sells sheet music. As far as I can see, every reference added was a link to a page that sells a particular piece of sheet music. This certainly seems like ]. ] (]) 19:00, 1 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::So is the problem that I'm actively contributing now, or that the cited sources aren't good enough? You guys are grasping at straws at this point.] added links to commercial sites , such as to Fidelio Music (to which he appears to be an affiliate) and yet no one raises a flag. Even when I added a source without removing his, he removed mine to keep only his link to Fidelio Music. ] (]) 19:23, 1 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::There is no "you guys" here. You have exactly the same status, as a volunteer editor, as I do. I have no idea who CurryTime7-24 is, or whether that editor is an affiliate. I just know about reliable sources and that we should not be linking to ''any'' commercial site, except possibly to the original publisher of a work. ] (]) 19:38, 1 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *] has compiled a page, ] of edits with links to this website. This list was not created by CurryTime7-24 but by a bot looking for instances of conflict-of-interests. All of the problems you are concerned about, John40332, would not exist if you would just stop posting links to this website. If you would agree to stop referring to sheetmusicx.com, you wouldn't be "hounded" or be defending yourself and we could close this complaint. Can you agree to that editing restriction? And, if you can't, then why are you insisting on linking to this particular website? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:09, 2 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:Because it's a valid source according to: | |||
| *:] - "Articles should be based on reliable, independent, published sources" | |||
| *:] - The publisher of the work (and not only the first ever publisher, any reputable publisher of a work) | |||
| *:] - "Published means, for Misplaced Pages's purposes, any source that was made available to the public in some form." | |||
| Interestingly, "someone" (and I'm not saying it's CurryTime7-24) came to my talk page yesterday to write , I can only think of 1 person who is hounding me this much though, but that doesn't seem to be taken seriously. ] (]) 07:29, 2 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :That's not "interesting", that's despicable; as is your insinuation. As for sheetmusicx as as source: for what? That they published some work? Why is that noteworthy? -- ] (]) 08:00, 2 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::As a source for information about the work. Yes it's despicable, and as I said, no one takes it seriously, I'm not insinuating anything, admins can look into the IP themselves. ] (]) 08:10, 2 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::So, you would prefer that this dispute continue on, which could lead to sanctions for you, rather than simply stop using this website as a reference? To me, when I see that kind of behavior, it's typically a sign of a paid editor. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 09:24, 2 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::There's no dispute, it's a reliable source and ] makes a fuss about it because of his ] syndrome and potential ] with his affiliation with Fidelio Music. | |||
| ::::Why are you against a source that complies with ] ? ] (]) 09:35, 2 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Because your use of that source is pretty clearly intended as promotional. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:27, 2 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::It's hard to understand how you can say "there's no dispute" when there is quite obviously a dispute; six editors in this thread alone have questioned your use of that source. You have invoked ] to claim that the website is an acceptable source, but I'm not sure you have understood what that guideline says about commercial sites; they are allowed as references '''only''' to verify simple facts such as titles and running times. You have not used sheetmusicx.com for such purposes; you have used it to tell the reader where they can purchase sheet music (], ], ], ], ], etc). ] (]) 01:34, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I used it to add relevant information that didn't exist on Misplaced Pages. | |||
| ::::::When I added "Psycho A Narrative for String Orchestra" that exists since 1968 and never mentioned on Misplaced Pages, but CurryTime decided to harass me there too. | |||
| ::::::When I added the orchestration for Tambourin Chinois , which CurryTime decided to remove too. | |||
| ::::::I used information by the publisher to confirm facts, as per ], if commercial sources are not allowed to verify contributions, then why is everyone so quiet about CurryTime's affiliation to Fidelio Music links ? So far these comments are a good example of ], first I was accused of spamming, then of being a bot, then that my account was compromised, then that the source used wasn't reliable, if you run out of ideas try my religion or ethnicity. ] (]) 08:50, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Yes, you added the bit about Psycho - which included the link ''with the same phrasing as on the other edits'' where it was obvious "buy this music here". Your edits are either promotional or are indistinguishable from being promotional. That is why they are being removed. - ] <sub>]</sub> 09:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::You have repeatedly said that CurryTime7-24 is an affiliate of Fidelio. Can you show us your evidence of that? ] (]) 18:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Here he removed my source to add Fidelio Music | |||
| ::::::Here again to make sure only Fidelio Music exists | |||
| ::::::And obviously here, deleting what I added to include Fidelio Music exclusively | |||
| ::::::Here he completely deleted everything I added about the piece as part of his ] ] (]) 19:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::That may be evidence of something, good or bad, but it's certainly not evidence that that editor is an affiliate. But, anyway, the action that hould have been taken a few days ago has now been taken, so we can stop talking now. ] (]) 20:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :It would be nice if an admin would compare the IP address 181.215.89.116 that told me to on my Talk Page, to existing users, now that would be fun to find out who is so against my edits, because so far the only action was a suspension. ] (]) 08:58, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 09:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::In any case the most obvious guess is: some unrelated troll who saw your name on this board. —] (]) 22:40, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| It appears that there is consensus here and at ] against linking to Sheet Music X. Is it possible for an admin to propose a resolution here? —] (]) 17:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :The only consensus is your ] syndrome, the sources linked are reliable and fit for purpose. People have questioned my use of the source, not the reliability of it. | |||
| *I notice that Calilibrador on his talk page while it was still in force, and that again , only to be . Finally, as soon as the block expired, I would argue that this wholesale lack of transparency demonstrates an ongoing and obsessive interest with his image and PR, with past examples documented in the section below. This is a long-term, and current problem with this editor and there is very little contrition in evidence. I suggest the overall pattern indicates a desire to use Misplaced Pages as a platform for his profession as a photographer. ]]] 23:30, 22 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :You created this complaint stating that I'm a spammer, a bot or a compromised account, has that consensus been reached too ? ] (]) 18:25, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :It is, he is trying to keep his talk page clean so that paying clients don't ask about his block, anyways thanks for pointing out the involving him JustDaFax, maybe I should have pointed this out at the very top of the thread and saved myself a lot of time, the admin in that discussion ] warned him not to re-offend, and he did....many times actually..I'm tired of this cause I did not come back after retiring just so that I get involved in MORE wikidrama, I have no issue with this, I just do not like POV pushers regardless of who they might be ...I hope an admin comes with a solution soon which will stop this from happening again..--<span style="color:blue;font-weight:bold;font-size:medium;font-family: Monotype Corsiva;">]]</span> 00:30, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::No, {{u|John40332}}, you are wrong about the lack of consensus, and there is ''clear'' consensus against you linking to that commercial sheet music sales site. So, either you agree to stop doing so, or you get subjected to formal sanctions. Which will it be? ] (]) 18:38, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*Umm {{u|Stemoc}} I mentioned the report right above so I'm not sure how you missed it {{p|grin}}, That said even if it was mentioned right up the top it wouldn't made a blind bit of difference unfortunately . –]<sup>]</sup> 01:37, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::So CurryTime can throw random accusations until something sticks? ] (]) 18:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Say, ] could you ping those editors mentioned in your report, that had issues with Cali/Gage? They are likely not aware of this ANI complaint that is now in a state of ] and may well shed some light on why they had concerns. Thanks. ]]] 07:39, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::OK, then. {{u|John40332}} is indefinitely blocked from article space. The editor is free to make well-referenced, formal ] on article talk pages. The editor is warned that continuing to attempt to add links to Sheet Music X may lead to a sitewide block. The editor is advised to read the ]. ] (]) 19:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{u|Jusdafax}} - That's actually a good idea ... Should've done that sooner as anything's worth a shot tbh, {{u|MrX}}, {{u|Spartan7W}}, {{u|Lady Lotus}}, {{u|Dwpaul}}. –]<sup>]</sup> 09:25, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I made well referenced edits directly from a reputable publisher. Enjoy the power trip. ] (]) 19:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Please refrain from ] which violate policy. ] (]) 19:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Let me quote Misplaced Pages's page for Power Trip "(...) someone in a position of greater power uses that power unjustifiably against a lower-ranking person, typically just for display of dominance.", since you showed up just to block me when I haven't even edited anything else until this incident was cleared. I didn't spam, I'm not a bot, my account isn't compromised, I referenced a reputable publisher that due to CurryTime's ] and ] made him start this issue. ] (]) 19:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Put that shovel down before you are indef blocked completely. '''increase indef block to all namespaces''' for battleground mentality. ] (]) 19:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{od}}The block is now sitewide. ] (]) 19:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| ===Proposed sanctions for Calilibrador=== | |||
| *'''Agree''', completely, with ]'s suggestion. It seems to be the most sensible and fair solution. I would be more in favour of the 1RR suggestion; it's not prohibitively restrictive (and doesn't discourage further contributions), but it reigns in any excessive promotional behaviour and forces him to seek consensus with other editors if they take issue with his revisions. ] (]) 01:09, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Indef block for Calibrador''' - Quinto, that type of sanction is only effective if Cali/Gage sees the continuing errors of his ways, and acts on them. He's been warned repeatedly to no avail, even reverting the block message on his Talk page when warned not to. Stemoc is likely right, Cali/Gage has deep reasons for his Talk page scrubbage. I say indef the character, at least until we get a serious commitment to reform that he can be held to. He's been gaming the system here for too long and shows no intention of stopping. ]]] 01:22, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Indef Calibrador''' - I'm probably not going to be liked for this but the editor has caused enough problems and I think the 1RR won't solve anything at all, We could go down the 1RR route but he'd end up being reported at ANEW and then it'll be all over again and he'd end up being blocked - Once unblocked we'll be doing it all over again. Indef seems a better and wiser idea IMHO. –]<sup>]</sup> 01:37, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Agree''' -- In complete agreement with Nick here. The 1RR proposal for Calibrador makes a lot of sense. However if that doesn't work an indef seems like the only other option. -- ] <sup>]</sup> 05:28, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Stemoc is hounding Calilibrador and is seriously refusing to drop the stick. <span style="font face="Papyrus" size="4" font-weight:bold">] ]</span> 16:23, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *I can understand 1RR and renaming of the files to remove his name (per DGG's comment), but before this last Bbb23 block for edit warring, he's never been blocked, and he has over 25,000 edits behind him. Indef blocking is excessive at this stage. ] - ] 17:00, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *A lot of that was to get him to respond, which he's now doing, if less than satisfactorily. But Dennis, it's my firm belief that if he gets off with 1RR and renaming, he's getting off easy. I really don't want to go wading through his edits, just to find more examples. We are already at TL,DR. Davey 2010 has it right. ]]] 20:51, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| == User:Historian5328 == | |||
| ===Current and past problems with Calibrador, formerly Gage Skidmore: suggest extending current BOOMERANG with indef block=== | |||
| *{{userlinks|Historian5328}} | |||
| I have been dealing with persistent additions of unreferenced numbers to ], ], etc for some time. Rolling them back - they're never supported by sources that validate the data, or the sources are distorted. | |||
| In the last couple of days a new user, ] has also started showing this behaviour. But in this edit he's entering fantasy territory, saying the ] are equipped with the ], which has never been exported beyond the ]. I would request that any interested administrator consider this account for blocking. Kind regards and Happy New Year, ] ] 21:37, 1 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Good double block, and I share Nick's concerns. By the way, isn't above in this very ANI complaint (!) using "very close to libel" as an implied legal threat in violation of ], as well the use of the term "paranoia" an attack on the mental condition of the editor Cali/Gage has brought to this board? If so, wouldn't a continued block of C/G be protective in nature? | |||
| :Editor clearly has some serious ] issues, given this ] stuff, and using...let's say ''non-reliable sources'' elsewhere, without responding to any of the notices on their talk page. I've pblocked them from articlespace so they can come here and explain themselves. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:05, 1 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Just noting that the editor's username is ], not ] and they were informed of this discussion. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 00:40, 2 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::In the same regard, I would kindly request that any interested administrators review ], who has been warned over and over and over again about adding unsourced and completely made up material (Somali Navy for example, consisting of 3,500 personnel..) ] ] 03:51, 2 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I see you corrected their username in this report after I mentioned the mistake. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 07:19, 2 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Liz, the original vandal and very problematic editor, who should be blocked immediately, was YZ357980. With all due regard to Historian5328, they display very similar behaviour, which immediately created a warning flag in my mind. ] ] 21:03, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I’m relatively new to Misplaced Pages editing and only recently discovered that there is even a talk page. Regarding the active personnel for the Somali Armed Forces, I listed approx 20,000–30,000 (2024) and included a citation, which I believe does not warrant being blocked. I’m a beginner in Misplaced Pages editing, have no malicious intent, and do not believe I should be blocked. Moreover, I read from a Somalia media source that the Somali government had acquired A-10 Thunderbolt II aircraft, believing the source to be authentic up until I discovered I was blocked. This was a mistake on my part, as I am new and inexperienced (2 days.) The individual who requested me to blocked must have had bad experiences which I’m not responsible for. I am requesting to be unblocked. ] (]) 19:40, 2 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Discussion continued on user's talk page. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:20, 2 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| A reminder that the arbitration committee has designated the Horn of Africa a contentious topic, so don’t be afraid to lay down a CT advisory template for either user. ] (]) 08:30, 2 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Both done - thanks for the reminder. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:23, 2 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I've removed the pblock on Historian5328 as it appears what was happening was 'new user unfamiliar with Misplaced Pages's policies on reliable sourcing', but best to keep an eye on their edits. - ] <sub>]</sub> 18:32, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == ] and removal of sourced information == | |||
| In any case, I've had some troubling issues with Cali/Gage Skidmore at the ] article. In brief, he lies, distorts, ignores and in general does whatever needful to get what he wants. My involvement began in 2012 when I cordially welcomed him to the page He gave no reply. | |||
| {{atop | |||
| | status = no action at this time | |||
| | result = Participants reminded to attempt communicating with other editors before reporting their behaviour to ANI. ] (]) 21:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| In August 2013, he repeatedly inserts his own photography as the infobox photo and refuses to reply on his Talk page or on the article Talk page When challenged, he ''lied in his edit summary'' saying, as clearly shown in that I had reverted him without explaining, which the diff shows my edit summary had, and that I was in violation of ], when in fact I had repeatedly asked for Cali/Gage to discuss the matter. | |||
| }} | |||
| This seems to be an ongoing issue. | |||
| I also noticed others and Cali/Gage failed to respond to them either. Finally in disgust I walked away from what I felt was an unpleasant and manipulative editing experience. And this editor has a serious set of issues, as noted above, and in just last month, also as noted above. He's a fine photographer, but we can do without his hostile gamesmanship and relentless self-promotion, in my view. ]]] 12:47, 22 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' The use of "very close to libel" once probably shouldn't be construed as a legal threat per ]. I don't really see enough diffs to support this strong of an action. I started looking through some of his photos and they are quite good. Personally, I think it would be a shame to loose his future contributions. --] (]) 05:59, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Reply''' - Not to go all Wikilawyer on you but the pertinent paragraph in that policy: ''It is important to refrain from making comments that others may reasonably understand as legal threats against them or against Misplaced Pages, even if the comments are not intended in that fashion. For example, if you repeatedly assert that another editor's comments are "defamatory" or "libelous", that editor might interpret this as a threat to sue for defamation, even if this is not intended. To avoid this frequent misunderstanding, use less charged wording (such as “That statement about me is not true and I hope it will be corrected for the following reasons...”) to avoid the perception that you are threatening legal action for defamation.'' As for photographers, he's good but not good enough to allow his brinksmanship and outright bad faith editing to continue, in my view. ]]] 06:17, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :*'''Comment''' I don't think you are Wikilawyering at all. I just think his phrase "very close to libel" is not quite the same as saying it was "libelous" nor did he do it repeatedly. I think before an indef block is decided, there should be more discussion about whether adding his name to the end of file names is a serious issue. --] (]) 06:33, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::*'''Darn it''' - that's not the only issue, as I demonstrate in this section just above. ''He's been abusing the place for years.'' You're right, the word "repeatedly" is in the policy too. But, now that he's unblocked, what does he do? Wipes his Talk page clean, and ignores the issues raised here. He does not apologize, does not comment, just up and vanishes. You OK with that? Why? Because he takes good pictures? ]]] 06:52, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::*I don't disagree with you that there are serious issues. I just did Google search in images for "Gage Skidmore" and it returns pages of his photos. So, maybe 1RR or 0RR would be a better starting point for now? --] (]) 07:01, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::*I think the first thing we all need to agree to is to ''get him to talk.'' He has a well-established history of avoiding discussion. That has to stop. Indef him, he's forced to face the music on his pristine talk page. He can answer questions there, express contrition and understanding of our policies, etc. Seriously, he must not be given a slap on the wrist and turned loose again on the project. Enough is enough. ]]] 07:30, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{Userlinks|Vofa}} has lots of warnings about disruptive editing in their user page and a block. | |||
| ===Calibrador response=== | |||
| If you look at my more recent edits, aside from accidentally reverting too many times on one article without knowing (trust me, it was my mistake), I have begun using edit summaries, tried to seek consensus, and mostly tried to avoid conflict. Stemoc reverted several different edits over several different pages within a short span of time simply for the fact that he believes I am somehow a COI violator. What should I really have done differently? I tried to include discussion, and a clear edit summary at every opportunity. | |||
| Most recent example of removal of sourced information: | |||
| I sincerely apologize for my past indiscretions, I have seen the error of ways in the past about not discussing changes seen as controversial. I don't need to be punished in order to see that, I see it clearly already. Also, I did not disappear, and inviting everyone that has had something bad to say about me with no one on the other side to defend me is a little biased. | |||
| I checked the source and the information is there on page 7. | |||
| The main issue that was at heart here that was underblown because Stemoc enjoys making a lot of noise, and crying COI at every possible chance, is the ] and uncivil nature of their edits. I have no idea why this has changed into a discussion about me. I've realized my edits in the past were disruptive, and if you look at my edits recently, I made sure to include an edit summary in nearly every contribution, and when necessary, created or participated in discussion. This includes the 3RR that I accidentally got myself into without realizing, I created a discussion on the talk page, and included a reason for making the edit in my edit summary. Unfortunately that was completely ignored by Stemoc in favor of COI accusations, and stating that I'm profiting from Misplaced Pages, which I have not ever. I suggest concentrating on that rather than my past mistakes which I apologize for, and have tried to amend. ] (]) 11:51, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :Also the thing on my talk page was a mistake, I did not know about that policy, and when it was re-added, I accidentally thought someone re-added it to my talk page just to rub it in or something like that, I didn't look at the history page until after I had made the edit. My mistake once again. As for now, all users have control over their talk page, I think Stemoc is once again assuming bad faith, and made another COI allegation that was unfounded. I don't want to distract from the main issue though that I think has not even been addressed yet, so please discuss Stemoc's offenses. ] (]) 12:03, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::I actually found Gage creating ] really odd until I did a bit of research and found out that he is somewhat of a "follower" and then i found ..should we now assume Gage is a ] as well cause your edits related to Rand Paul sure looks a lot like public relations work..no? So you use the wiki to push your own agendas, create articles on stuff which again boosts your own career and then you lie about it and then come here and blame me for foiling you? Just claim that you are a and you are doing all this just to boost your own career and this will all be over...Heck, you even uploaded a new yet ] picture of Donald trump because you didn't like the I ] as it wasn't one of 'yours'...When i first came across you a few years ago, I thought you were a hero for adding HQ pics of celebs and politicians free of charge, boy was I wrong and yet even when multiple users above have claimed that you have been 'gaming' the system, you still deny it and deflect it back to me...Honestly, if all this does not result in a ban or a block for you, I worry that you will do it all over again cause honestly, I do not think you joined wikipedia to help grow the database and you have no intentions whatsoever to follow our policies if they contradict with your ambitions and you have already been on the ] notice board 3 times over the last 50 days and yet you keep blaming others and refuse to accept that you made mistake after mistake and you even blanked your talk page twice even after 2 admins warned you not to and then you blanked it again the 3rd time just 10 minutes after your block was lifted..Why would anyone not worried about their image do that?...If you somehow walked away from this with just a slap on your hand then this would mean Misplaced Pages has failed...--<span style="color:blue;font-weight:bold;font-size:medium;font-family: Monotype Corsiva;">]]</span> 13:02, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::Please stop stalking my edits and ]. You've made your same point over and over and over, I'd like an admin opinion on your behavior, not your same opinion. ] (]) 13:09, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *No doubt, Stemoc has his own issues. But this is the first I've heard of this Rand Paul article, which opens a new and distressing window on your POV pushing activities, Calibrador. Leaving that aside for the moment, as well as your excuses for blanking the block notices on your talk page repeatedly, which strain credulity since you are saying you didn't read the admin postings at all, we come to the issues I have delineated in detail above. ''You have posted a lot of words here. Not a single one addresses my specific and documented concerns, and those of others who have further concerns.'' So is this the best you can do? A "sweat promise" to now, after years, act like most decent Wikipedians, and actually use edit summaries, actually seek consensus? Now that major sanctions are under discussion here, I challenge you to address the charges that have been brought forward. ]]] 13:47, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| **I thought I addressed them? I admit I should have participated in discussion in the past instead of acting in a cold manner. I hardly even remember the incident you are talking about in regards to the LA Reid article. FWIW, that was not my photo, I did not take it. I was acting like any other editor looking for a better image that was freely available on Flickr, and thought that better illustrated the subject of the article, and thought it was weird that a photo with someone else in the photo that was years older was preferred. I did not look at the article history you linked, I'm just going by memory. Not sure what else I can say, but I'd very much like a response to Stemoc's behavior, as absolutely no one with any authority has had anything to say about their hounding and uncivil behavior that I documented in my original report. ] (]) 14:00, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ***Also, not to make this any sort of issue, but I just looked at the article, and would note that the photo that I added is now the photo that is universally used to illustrate the article across Misplaced Pages projects, and not as a result of me. Someone else did that. I really have no memory of that situation though, it was several years ago. I know I was in the wrong on that though, so I apologize. ] (]) 14:05, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| The fact that GageSkidmore/Calibrador suddenly changed his username is an indication that his intentions here are likely less than good faith. I really don't see a pressing issue at all with Stemoc, but with GageSkidmore/Calibrador we see a user who is all about self-promotion, and in many regards, whose motivations, i.e. Rand Paul book, etc. are questionable. He likes to ensure his pictures retain precedence over all others; yes, he takes many pictures that are free-use, and that is good. But many of his pictures aren't of article quality and composition, and he many times fights for ones that are the least worth inclusion. There have been problems in the past, and I see them again. He likes making great streams of edits on pages, rather than carefully consolidating his efforts, he continues to put 'by Gage Skidmore' on every single picture uploaded to the commons, obvious self promotion, and his consistent efforts to evade (name change and notification deletes) demonstrate his negative impact here. '''] ]''' 14:12, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :I would just like to note that I stole that idea from David Shankbone, should we bring David Shankbone to AN/I? The stream of edits that I think you are referring to were an effort to try to control my own content. Many (not all) of the photos that were uploaded from my photostream were cropped very poorly, or were not the best one to illustrate an article in my opinion. Most (not all) of my recent photo additions were replacing of my own photos with an alternate crop, or slightly different color, sharpness, etc. Some mistook that as simply uploading the same photo with a different title, but that was not the case, people were adding my photos to Misplaced Pages unknowingly to me, and I wasn't particularly a fan of the way they looked, however minor it was. I don't specifically recall very many instances where a "stream" of edits other than that one instance where it was controversial and someone took notice of it. After I was brought to the noticeboard, I did not continue that behavior. Despite what you may think, I'm capable of learning from my mistakes. As was the case with the recent noticeboard discussion, and is the reason I used an edit summary and created discussions on several recent articles. Unfortunately that was disrupted by Stemoc who reverted several different edits across several different pages, crying COI and that I'm somehow being paid to edit Misplaced Pages, how exactly should I have responded to that other than the way that I did? In the first few instances on one specific page, I reverted with a descriptive edit summary stating my opposition to the revert of my edit, and also included a talk page post. That post was met with a paragraph of COI accusations. In the end, another user, ] reverted the page back to my version twice more when Stemoc reverted it to their version. The fact that I overstepped 3RR was an accident on my part, I understand that policy very clearly, I would not have overstepped that if I had known the first edit I made also counted as a revert, I was simply re-adding official portraits that were replaced for some reason unknown to me. In regards to the Paul thing, I would simply consider myself an expert on the topic, the book article was added because I was trying to keep it consistent with the previous two book articles. Not sure what you were trying to imply with that, especially since the article is not written in a biased manner. I don't believe I've ever made any sort of NPOV edits to anything Paul related, if I did that was a mistake, but I do not believe I did. The only thing I can think of are stylistic article choices. ] (]) 14:35, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Really Shankbone? the guy that took random celebrity pics and never had a COI or ever pushed his POV across wikimedia? only a handful of his celebrity pics were with his name in the image title which i mentioned above, we ALLOW...not 100% of his images..He rarely if at all replaced someone's images with his own unless it was outdated and I doubt he made a single-cent out of doing this..I would be really surprised if he was ever dragged onto any of the ] boards..and again, you are deflecting..Now you are claiming that users like ] and I made "bad" crops?. Are you seriously suggesting that for example, ] by Lady Lotus was so "badly cropped" than you just had to it with ] of yours? or ] with ] version or ] image with one of ] for the exact same reason.. I don't think you care about the quality of your images cause if you did and you thought your version was BETTER, you would have uploaded your version over the "same image" that you were trying to replace, instead of uploading a same if not similar crop with again, your name in the image title...I have told you on multiple occasion that if any user on enwiki or commons finds an image on flick with a free licence and they find there is a need for that image on ANY of the 700 odd wikis we have (300 of which are wikipedias), they will freely be allowed to upload that image to commons so if you have a problem with it, please, feel free to change the license of your images on flickr to ARR (All Rights Reserved) but at the same time, you won't be allowed to upload those images here either without scrutiny....and regarding the PrairieKid edit, If you actually see the history, he changed an image because another user reverted my edit because he didn't understand why my "revert" of your edit was a "self-promotion" because you had your name changed which is why you did it (you can lie about it many times but we all know why)..infact there was no 3RR by me but I accepted the block because I felt that maybe NOW people might see exactly what I have been saying all along, I don't have to repeat myself again as everything i have said is listed above..You may not see it but even though you have been around since 2009, you still refuse to understand or follow our policies so you have not only violated one, but MANY of our policies over the years and you only got away with it because of your name. I have listed a few of your violations above and on the 3RR thread which you keep going back too, this board is NOT for 3RR....this board is about your attitude on this wiki and how you deal (or lack thereof) with other users and your ability (on inability) to both understand or follow our polices and your insistence of claiming over and over again that you are the victim here when its clear that you are not....So instead of ] to me, why don't you tell us why an admin should not block you? and P.S, I'm NOT Hounding you, I'm getting you to talk because over the last 6 years you have been on this wiki, you REFUSE to talk when posed a question and you always ignore hierarchy on this wiki and now when you have this opportune time to save yourself, you deflect, passing the blame onto someone else without realizing that this will only make it worse for you....the only reason I'm replying to your posts is because you keep mentioning my name and pointing fingers at me, i know how to defend myself since I have been in similar situation a few times....Everytime I post, I added more proof regarding your edits, and everytime you posts, its just more accusations hurled at me without an ounce of proof and yet, I'm the one hounding him as you claim....anyways I have wasted too much time on this, I have better things to do across wikimedia--<span style="color:blue;font-weight:bold;font-size:medium;font-family: Monotype Corsiva;">]]</span> 00:37, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *Stemoc, first off, you gotta learn to not slap up these giant text walls that make the average editor's eyes glaze over, and tone down your use of caps. That said, it appears to me you have a number of decent points. There is no doubt that Cali/Gage has utterly and repeatedly failed for years now to discuss and come to consensus, except when he is lying, which I document above. I'm hoping by keeping this thread open that others will come forth, so we can establish what kind of sanctions Cali/Gage will be facing. There is growing consensus something has to be done. Cool out, man. ]]] 02:07, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :*Haha, yeah can't help it bro, once I have something to talk about, my wall can be higher than the Great Wall of China..I actually cut myself short there cause most of the things that needed to be said has already been said....I have mentioned a few times that i use Bolds or Caps or "quotes" for "emphasis" only, I'm not really "shouting"..I agree, this has dragged far too long and needs to be solved once and for all...I have no interests in making edits to the wikipedia-space as i prefer most if not all my edits to be on the main space..--<span style="color:blue;font-weight:bold;font-size:medium;font-family: Monotype Corsiva;">]]</span> 02:36, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::*Three words: Use paragraph breaks. ] (]) 12:14, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *I was notified about this discussion on my talk page. I do not favor an indefinite block of Gage Skidmore (the username change was in bad faith, however, and should be reversed imo). Though he has demonstrated a strong POV against notable minor candidates for office as I documented , my main issue with Skidmore is his lack of communication, specifically his refusal to discuss contentious edits he makes in furtherance of his POV. Nevertheless, based on what he has written above, I believe he has the potential to change. He adds great content to articles and wikipedia should not eliminate his ability to do so through an indefinite block. A 1RR restriction seems like a fair remedy. This may encourage him to discuss his edits (as part of the ] method) rather than reverting reverts without providing any justification.--] (]) 06:03, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Previous examples include: . Also see: ] ] (]) 16:23, 2 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Proposal for interaction ban=== | |||
| At this point I think it would be very wise to consider implementing an ] between myself and Stemoc, I don't conceive this ever resolving amicably as far as their prerogative goes, so I think this would be the best way to not be disruptive. ] (]) 15:44, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :Just to clarify, I just noticed that there is indeed an unsourced paragraph. | |||
| '''Oppose''' such interaction ban since the only one to benefit from it would be the proposer himself, who would get rid of a vocal critic. Criticism that IMO is justified, because like many others here I see Calibrador's activities as using Misplaced Pages for promotion. ] ] 16:05, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :The reason for removal of sourced information would then be "removed text not relevant to Chagatai Khanate and Golden Horde in introduction". However the source does mention {{tq|The first of the changes leading to the formation of the Turco-Mongolian tradition ...}} and then gives Golden Horde and the Chagatai Khanate as examples. I don't see any ] or ] issues. | |||
| :I am concerned about removal of sourced information that does not seem to have a rationale based on ] ] (]) 16:41, 2 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Hi there. The matter seems to be resolved. I did remove an unsourced paragraph and general claims not relevant to the introduction. I do not see a problem with it. You seem to have linked three edits I made. In the first edit, I had to revert because I accidentally chose the minor edit option. In the second edit, I have restored the previous version, but without a minor sign. I did not remove any sources (based on what I remember) I hope to see through my edits and understand what I did or did not do wrong. Please, avoid making an ANI in bad faith. ] (]) 03:06, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::You removed source information. The part that starts with {{tq|The ruling Mongol elites ...}} | |||
| :::{{ping|asilvering}} from the editor's talk page, you seem to be a mentor. Removing sources or sourced material without explanation, or with insufficient explanation or rationale, such as "Polished language" , is an ongoing concern with Vofa. ] (]) 15:12, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Im not sure why I’m being stalked, but the edits you’re showing as examples of myself removing sources are more than two months old. I’ve stopped removing sources. ] (]) 19:38, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{ping|asilvering}} This issue is still continuing ] (]) 15:14, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::And you previously spoke to Vofa about this where...? -- ] (]) 19:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::{{u|asilvering}}, I hadn't talked about removing sourced material without sufficiently explaining the rationale. | |||
| :::::I did talk about this however . See: ] | |||
| :::::I don't seek or expect a permanent block over this. But as a mentor and an administrator, maybe you can comment on removing sourced material without sufficiently explaining the rationale. ] (]) 19:35, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::@], that's a ''threat'', not an explanation. If you have a content dispute with an editor, which is what this appears to be, you need to be able to talk it out with them on the article's Talk page. @], please be careful to make sure your edit summaries explain what you're doing. I see that there ''was'' an unsourced statement in the link Bogazicili just supplied, so I presume that's what you meant by "unsourced". But the other statement you removed ''did'' have a source. It's ok to split your edits up into multiple edits if you need to do that to explain them properly, but you could also just give an edit summary like "removed unsourced; also, removed statement " that addresses both changes. -- ] (]) 23:19, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::{{u|Asilvering}}, I would not characterize this as a "content dispute". I was not involved in most of those articles. I got concerned after seeing edits market as minor removing sources or sourced material without any or proper explanation. That is not a content dispute, that is an editor conduct dispute. ] (]) 07:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::What Vofa does at articles related to Turko-Mongolian history is not a content dispute but vandalism. It took me a lot of time to manually revert the hoax years and figures he added in ] article to decrease their population and he also removed sourced basic info from the lede of the ] which I had to restore. These are just some of few sneaky vandalism examples that I caught among the pages I patrol by Vofa. If you see his talk page, he has been warned a lot of times by many other editors for such mischief. ] (]) 07:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::@], Vofa hasn't edited the Turkmens article since before they were blocked. That is obviously not an ongoing issue. As for ], I ''also'' see no discussion of those edits. If you have a problem with how someone is editing, you need to communicate with them. -- ] (]) 08:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::{{u|Asilvering}}, my concerns were removal of sourced information or sources without proper rationale or explanation. Do you think that was communicated enough to Vofa in this topic, or do we need further communication? I'm asking in case Vofa continues this type of behavior. Hopefully that won't be the case. ] (]) 08:29, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Im going to repeat this again; | |||
| ::::::::::I have not removed any sources since I was warned about it. | |||
| ::::::::::I do not see an issue with my recent editing. | |||
| ::::::::::You should communicate with me on any issues that you have with me. ] (]) 11:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::{{u|Vofa}}, do you see any issues with this edit: ] (]) 11:36, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::Are you implying if I see an issue with this edit of mine or with your removal of said edit? ] (]) 15:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::{{u|Vofa}}, the former. I am asking if you see any issues yourself with your own linked edit. ] (]) 17:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::I do not see an issue with the linked edit of mine. ] (]) 19:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::Indeed, really the issue was Bogazicili's, and it has now been solved in the usual way (by restoring only the sourced content). Apologies, @], for misreading it earlier. -- ] (]) 19:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::{{u|Asilvering}}, I disagree. I did miss the unsourced paragraph. However, removal of sourced content has been an ongoing issue with Vofa. They should not have removed sourced content to begin with. | |||
| :::::::::::::::There was also a previous discussion in ANI: | |||
| :::::::::::::::] | |||
| :::::::::::::::{{u|Asilvering}}, again, is the threshold of communication met if removing sourced content by Vofa persists in the future? ] (]) 19:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::Basically, I'm not trying to get Vofa blocked, but they should be more careful in future when they remove sources or sourced content. They should have a reasonable rationale based in ], and they should explain that rationale properly. ] (]) 19:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::::Indeed they should. And you should not restore unsourced content once it has been removed. -- ] (]) 20:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::::{{u|asilvering}}, the difference is I already acknowledged it multiple times. Is that not obvious? ] (]) 21:40, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::::::@], I'm going to close this report. No administrative action is required here at this time. You should make a habit of communicating on the article talk page when you get into a conflict with another editor, but you should ''always'' try to communicate with other editors before coming to ANI about their behaviour. This should be your last resort. If you make an earnest effort to communicate and are ignored, by all means report here. If there is edit-warring or obvious vandalism involved, please take that to the relevant noticeboard. -- ] (]) 21:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Thank you. ] (]) 11:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::This member often vandalises, in an article about ] he wrote huge numbers without backing them up with sources and tried to prove it was true. This is rabid vandalism. ] <sup>]</sup> 12:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::@], vandalism has a specific meaning on Misplaced Pages; an edit being unsourced does not mean it was vandalism. Do not cast aspersions on other editors in this way. @], you are edit-warring on ]. You need to stop doing that immediately. -- ] (]) 19:26, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I have not edited Oirats. I have stopped edit warring. ] (]) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| ==Incivility and ABF in contentious topics== | |||
| '''Oppose''' - Yup Thomas's hit the nail on the head - ] states and I quote "{{xt|The purpose of an interaction ban is to stop a conflict between two or more editors that cannot be otherwise resolved}} - There is no conflict - It's simply one (well actually quite alot) of editors unhappy with you and your self promotion here. –]<sup>]</sup> 17:51, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ]'s uncivil comments and assuming bad faith on multiple contentious talk pages is not necessarily egregious but I suppose it ''is'' problematic and chronic, consistent and ongoing. I would appreciate some assistance. Here are some diffs from the past few days: | |||
| '''Comment''' If they were ] about it, I wouldn't have made the request. Unfortunately they are one of the most uncivil people I have ever had interaction with. ] (]) 20:15, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Disparaging another editor's intellect and reasoning skills. | |||
| :They have been civil tho so that doesn't wash either..... –]<sup>]</sup> 20:50, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Not true. ] (]) 21:33, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Stephanie_Seneff&diff=prev&oldid=1266584883 | |||
| '''Oppose''' - per Thomas W. I'm fed up, obviously. As I comment above, Stemoc's off-putting delivery is annoying, and post-block, he needs to cool that down. But Stemoc's got some valid points, and I for one am glad he's making the push to inform the wider community about Calibrador's promotional and conflicted edit history. This self-serving proposal merely continues that pattern, and coming in the midst of an ongoing discussion of boomerang sanctions against Calibrador, is arguably disruptive. Cali/Gage has clearly learned ''nothing'' from the way this thread has gone. If this is the best he can do, indef him, and we can discuss it without his attempts to turn the discussion. ]]] 02:17, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| WP:NPA | |||
| ===Proposal for a ban on {{U|Calibrador}}/Gage Skidmore to add his name as author/photographer to articles on en-WP=== | |||
| Per ] we should '''not''' ''credit the image author or copyright holder in the article, '''unless relevant to the subject''''', but just having taken a photo of the subject of an article does not IMO make the photographer "relevant to the subject". So I propose a ban on Calibrador/Skidmore to add his name as creator/author/photographer to articles on the English language Misplaced Pages, whether it's done in the image caption, as a footnote, as a reference (yes I've seen his name added as <nowiki><ref>Author: Gage Skidmore</ref></nowiki> to articles, so that his name appears among the references at the bottom of the page, see ]) or in any other way. Having his name on the image page, visible when clicking the image, should be more than enough. Several proposals to add image attributions to articles have been made through the years, but all have AFAIK failed, so we should go by what MOS says, that is no image attribution unless relevant to the subject of the article. ] ] 16:07, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' Any actual mention of my name in an article, whether that includes a reference like you mentioned, or in the caption, was not done by me, and I oppose that as well. ] (]) 16:57, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *What about taking that to ] so that arbitrators decide what to do? --] <small>(])</small> 11:59, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Yeah, because no admin wants to dig into this murky time sink. But who's gonna file it? ]]] 13:33, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Harald_Walach&diff=prev&oldid=1266713324 | |||
| == Disruptive behaviour of ] == | |||
| Profanity | |||
| *User: {{user|Rolandi+}} | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:James_Tour&diff=prev&oldid=1267046966 | |||
| Continously disruptive editing. The user refuses to discuss in a civil manner or contribute to the project. | |||
| Assuming "malicious" intent; profanity; deprecating the editor | |||
| *Without discussion, editing the infobox of , changing the contemporary and historiographical view of the family (notability), that instead of Serbian, they were Albanian. There is a section regarding theories on their origin, and a discussion at the talk page. | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory&diff=prev&oldid=1267154877 | |||
| *Without discussion, editing the introduction of , changing the contemporary and historiographical view of the tribe (notability), that instead of Greek, they were Albanian. There is a section regarding theories on their origin, and a discussion at the talk page. Rolandi+ opened , which is very confusing. | |||
| Unicivil | |||
| *Without discussion, removing a reference of , on the basis that "not reliable source, doesn't mention kosovo with its official name" and "" the reference uses '']''. | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Mick_West&diff=prev&oldid=1267158027 | |||
| The user has been warned countless times. He makes inappropriate comments such as , , , , , Also, I have reasons to believe that {{user|AlbertBikaj}} and {{user|Rolandi+}} are the same person, based on scope, spellings and punctuation marks.--] 13:15, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267160441 | |||
| Contact on user page attempted | |||
| I was new here (now I have 4 days here) so I didn't know that I had to use the talk pages.After I was warned , I have ALWAYS used the talk pages of the articles or user's talk pages.(you can see that).After I was informed,I haven't edit anything at "Balsic family" | |||
| "Souliotes" (I have used only the talk page after that.Actually without consensus at the talk page,Zoupan deleted from the "Souliotes" some informations +references that were on the article since a long time---I have asked for independent help at the relevant notice board. ) | |||
| Zoupan also claimed "8,000–12,000" here:https://en.wikipedia.org/Kosovo_Serbs .When I asked him to provide references ,he provided some references that didn't say the same thing he claimed (so he lied with his references). | |||
| He says that I deleted a "referenced" source.I used the talk page to explain him that the used reference was not serious (so it is not reliable).The web page referred to kosovo as "Kosovo +Metohija" which is not its official name.The most important thing that makes it clear that it is not a serious media are the comments.There are many nacionalist comments (that a serious+reliable media doesn't allow ) such as "Ramush Haradinaj+Hashim Thaci are killers etc "/ "we will never return to Kosovo dialogue" etc. | |||
| After we hadn't an agreement about "Balsic family " and "Kosovo serbs" ,he started claiming at the Souliotes' talk page that my references weren't correct.He wanted from me to answear his questions (he made these things only to "revenge" against me as I didn't have the same thoughts with him about some serbian related informations.).He also said that he had references where he based his claims.I asked him twice to provide his references at the talk page but he didn't (he lied again).Also he said to me that he would made edits at some albanian related pages (about the albanian nobility--He obviously wanted only to "revenge" ).---For all of these please see our talk pages and the mentioned articles' talk pages. | |||
| As for my "inappropriate comments" I am ready to be more carefull in the future. | |||
| He also said that he believes I am a sockpuppet.Actually ,he can investigate about that.Albert Bikaj is obviously "albanian" so it's normal for two albanians to edit albanian related pages.I am sure that Zoupan is the "same" person with other serb editors based on scope,spellings and punctuation marks.As I said :Zoupan thinks I am a sockpuppet and he can investigate about that. | |||
| ] (]) 17:50, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :I'm a liar and avenger? Okay. Please do take a look at the talk pages, because this is getting tiresome. Note that the user has made 8 edits to the above comment, with one timestamp.--] 20:20, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Hob_Gadling&diff=prev&oldid=1267160795 | |||
| It is true that I did 8 edits to the above comment, with one timestamp.However ,this doesn't mean that my words aren't true about you.As I said the other editors can see our talk pages and the mentioned articles' talk pages.And don't continue adding "Ottoman greeks" at the souliotes' article without our consensus .] (]) 08:26, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Assuming bad faith, accusing editor of being incompetent | |||
| ::This disruptive pattern is still in full motion, while blind reverting appears a typical strategy for the promotion of a national pov. I've left a last warning in Rolandi's talkpage.] (]) 15:01, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267163557] (]) 03:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Yes, he is still continuing his behaviour. He , I then reverted his removal, with the comment "rev undiscussed removal, use talk page", upon which he reverted once again with the comment ""--] 18:29, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :Think this calls for a fierce ] slapping and some direct words. I cannot really endorse a ] according to ], as this is just an ] and frankly, I don't see ''direct'' personal attacks, I just see unfriendly behavior and prick-ish attitude, no outward disruption of the project either. Also, I have to ask for further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions, as {{tq|some diffs from the past few days}} are not indicative of chronic issue. The holiday times, like Christmas, Hanukkah, and New Years' can be some of the most stressful times for people during the year. Not saying I like seeing this, but I can understand the feeling. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 04:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Zoupan continue deleting all my edits and references.(for example https://en.wikipedia.org/Mehmed_Pasha_Bushati ).He deleted my references and said that I had to provide references.And this isn't the first time!Alexikoua also continue deleting my referenced edits by saying that they aren't decent .This here for example (Danişmend (1971), p. 41 ) is used hundreads of time at many articles (for example : https://en.wikipedia.org/List_of_Ottoman_Grand_Viziers ).If they delete my references because they are "decent and without consensus ",this means thatsome of their references also can be deleted. ( Zoupan uses mostly serb references that are actually unreliable.They consider all balkanik people as "serbs" .He also uses serb blogs as reliable references. )Also I want tou to prevent Zoupan and Alexikoua from leaving me warnings.If I do something bad ,I want warnings from other administrators. ] (]) 19:52, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Would I be the person to provide you with that {{tq|further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions}}? I did think that it would be more than a ], since that's for {{tq|one-off instances of seemingly silly behavior}} and this is more like a perpetual bad habit that needs something a bit stronger, like a stern ]. ] (]) 06:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :@]: I don't see anything violating policy with regard to direct personal attacks or even profanity directed at a person, but rather directed to the topic in the discussion. ''Hob should know better'', and as per BarntToust, Hob really deserves a trout to be a bit more civil and how to ]. But I would ''caution you'' about ] and the new attention to your activity and involvement this has drawn to your own edits. For example your , , and it seems like you're having a problem handling a ] and assuming bath faith of editors. You are not going to win a battle to get your material included by trying to report other editors in bad faith. | |||
| :Furthermore it does appear that you might be ] because your attempts at ] for your specific perspectives regarding Covid are meeting resistance at every turn. , , , , , , and now this ANI report. Without evaluating everything you've discussed in the past few weeks, at quick glance it appears that you're having problems understanding ] and are having contentious discussions with far more experienced editors. That isn't to say that we assume that they're correct and you're wrong, but when you're receiving pushback from multiple very experienced editors, I would encourage you to slow down a bit and try to fully understand the policy, and isntead of arguing to "win", you need to read about how you need to work towards ]. Because at the end of the day, without consensus, you will continue to have a lot of problems. ] ] 05:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I appreciate the feedback and will take it into consideration and try to refine my approach to disputes. My intention has been to address ''unique issues'' as they arise, versus shopping around the same old dispute. For example, the current ANI topic pertains specifically to some rude behavior that has been going on for quite some time and doesn't show any sign of stopping despite my attempts to resolve it directly. The editor in question actually seems pretty reasonable in their interpretation of the sources but I speculate that there might be a perception in the rank-and-file that it's OK to be pretty uncivil to editors who advocate for moving the NPOV because they're naturally afraid of putting their own head on the chopping block, so to speak. I suppose raising these issues in relevant venues is in line with guidelines. Both of those RSN discussions were related to distinct sourcing problems and resulted in useful resolutions that aligned with my concerns. The Teahouse posts about the Covid content disputes and a question regarding the politics of Misplaced Pages was in response to an administrator’s suggestion (]) that I drop by there for a discussion, and I found the feedback from experienced users there helpful. My talk page comments about user behavior were meant to discuss issues first on talk pages, per the ANI guidelines. ({{tq|All content and conduct issues should be discussed first at the talk page of the relevant article or user before requesting dispute resolution.}} ]) Thank you for your time and input. | |||
| ::] (]) 07:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I hope the editors who read this will notice the ABF here: {{tq|trying to report other editors in bad faith}}. ] (]) 21:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{OD}} | |||
| @]: Jay brought something to my attention with . It looks like there is ] (ChatGPT) text about "COVID-19 Natural Immunity" copied and pasted on there. What in the cheeseballs?? What made you think {{!tq|hmm, let's prompt ShatGPT to churn out 700 words about this random out-of-pocket topic, and I'm gonna post this on my Misplaced Pages user page for no reason!}} I'm confused. This specific revision also ] about IP editors, and here's the rich part: just as you copy-pasted text from ChatGPT about COVID to your user page, you go on to write a section that addresses use of AI. {{tq|Quoting from an AI chat bot without attribution is plaigiarism.}} I'm just confused with what you are doing here. So I'd like to ask you, ], what in the sam hill is going on here? If there is a reasonable explanation for this goofiness, I suggest you produce one, '''not from a prompt entered into ChatGPT''', in your own words. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 16:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :It is an old version of their user page, and it is not plagiarism to quote from a chat bot even without attribution, so we must assume that you are attempt to detract from the OP's complaint. The issue at hand is an experienced editor who joins talk page discussions without understanding the topic at hand (which they admit in one instance ), and are frequently use derogatory language and tone towards other editors. This behavior does not seem like a new thing for them and they clearly know how to skirt the edge of what would be considered a personal attack by an admin, so this merits a formal warning. ] (]) 18:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yet disruption is spread to a variety of articles with the same national-pov advocacy pattern: for example ] ], ] ]. In both cases being eager to change the nationality without even with intenionally wrong edit summaries (labelling as "minor change" a change in the nationality at 1st line of the lede).] (]) 20:29, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::look, the other guy is acting pissy, and I agree with the formal warning. But @], you should familiarise yourself with ]. The long short of it if you didn't click on one of the several instances of it being linked above: If an editor attempts to bring someone else to ANI while having dirty laundry themselves, this editor will likely be found out for their dirty laundry. And that's what I'm doing right now. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I know what WP:BOOMERANG is and I telling you that you appears to be here only to detract from the complaint, and the way you are doing it by dragging up something from old user page and making claims of plagirism is highly suspect. If an admin scrolls through Hob's comments on the lab leak topic page, they will see that they are almost all designed to provoke and demean other editors. This highly inappropriate for such a difficult topic area where editors struggle to agree on NPOV. ] (]) 18:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::So far, there's agreement that this is unbecoming behaviour from Hob, and they need a ] slap to wake them the heck up from the bad behaviour. I do not understand why the jester cannot be questioned for his goofy behaviour when he shows himself to be goofy as he tries to alert everyone of the fool's, uh, foolishness. No offence intended from this medieval analogy. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::{{u|BarntToust}} You're being ] and you need to stop. WP:BOOMERANG is for when the reporter is the one causing the problems, not for airing "dirty laundry" as you yourself describe it. ] (]) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::well, I tend to get concerned when someone with LLM text pasted on their userpage comes up from the water. If that's considered bite-y to reiterate my concerns in intentional lighthearted analogy in order to seem less hard-headed, then I guess we're done here. @], I invite you to weigh in on whether you think a '''formal warning''' or a ] slap is what needs to happen to Hob. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :That content from ChatGPT was meant to go in my sandbox as experiment or for assisting with research into a future article. The LLM can generate wikitext with links to articles that already exist. ] (]) 18:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::When you get a bunch of text from a large language model, you get unsourced content. If you ask ChatGPT for info, you run the serious risk of getting false content. So, either way you take it: If you get text, then try to re-write it cohesively, and find sources for it, you are ] and that is to be discouraged; if you are asking AI to gain an understanding on an unfamiliar topic, you are likely to run into false information. If you use AI for either of these purposes, @], I suggest you be very judicious about how you go about "leveraging AI". There are more ways that can go wrong than I need to count on the ANI. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Why are you on this administrator page making these spurious claims of plagiarism and giving this unsolicited advices? ] (]) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::@], I'm pointing out questionable content on someone else page. for ''context'', in which they copied ChatGPT text without attribution, then said that using ChatGPT without attribution is plagiarism. That contradictory stuff is what I was questioning. please click on the diff for context. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:11, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I use it more like a (really good) search engine or a thesaurus. It can give a lot of suggestions for a human writer, but ultimately you use your own mind and RS to formulate the facts and how to present them. ] (]) 19:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::that's a good moderation mindset to use. I'm satisfied with your answer, it makes enough sense. Carry on! <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Thanks! *curtsy* ] (]) 00:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *The lack of civility in this contentious topic is significantly hindering editing efforts, especially since most issues concern neutrality and tone, which requires a careful and nuanced approach. ] (]) 17:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Yes Alexikoua ,the "souliotes" has been sent to the revelant dispute resolution noticeboard.See the talk page also.There is no consensus that souliotes were greeks .You continue reporting me only to ban me because we don't have the same thoughts. https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Zoupan#Don.27t_delete_my_references .Maybe you think you are very intelligent or you are the Master of Universe,maybe you think you will ban me forever ,this is and will not be true.And if I will be banned ,don't worry ,you can't change the history,you can't change nothing as you are only ,but only a little ridiculous man.As Zoupan said ,Misplaced Pages isn't a reliable source , and this because there are people like you .Nobody takes your edits as serious ,there are books and other references where people read about nations and cultures ,nobody believes your lies.So go ahead and ban me , ban me if you can.And if you manage to ban me ,I will turn back (without sockpuppetery )here.And I will not comment at this talk page anymore ,because only people like you can be part of ridiculous things.Goodbye my little dear Alexikoua. As for Zoupan ,please Don't wake him up from his dreams. Rolandi+ (talk) 07:55, 27 June 2015 (UTC) <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| :I can't see anything in the original report that does anything other than show that Hob Gadling calls a thicko a thicko. What is wrong with that? ] (]) 18:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::@] As someone who was the recipient of one of those attacks in the example, I'm curious, what is a "thicko" and why do you believe that I am one? ] (]) 19:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::...according to the Cambridge English Dictionary, it means "a stupid person" - which would make it ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 19:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Yes, in British slang, "thick" = "stupid". ]] 19:54, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| There is not enough context for the examples of impatience from Hob Gadling which the OP offers. For example, Lardlegwarmers, do you really expect a warm welcome for your 'attempted contact on user page' ]? Or for your puritanical reproaches about HG's use of "profanity" (which normally turns out to mean using the word ''bullshit'', which is by no means banned from Misplaced Pages, nor is its expressiveness easy to replace with something more flattering). Considering what they're replying to, of another editor's intellect and reasoning skills"]] seems pretty temperate. And so on. ] | ] 20:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC). | |||
| :I'm not suggesting we should wash anybody's mouth out with soap. The editor's consistent uncivil behavior is more than just the occasional salty diction here and there. I mean, look at ] where an editor is asking for a discussion on why Hob Gadling reverted his edit. It seems as if the person was trying to do it on the talk page and was ignored. Hob Gadling gruffly tells the other editor to get lost. ] (]) 01:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == KWW / The Rambling Man == | |||
| :My experience is that this kind of aggression is standard operating procedure for the defendant. I'd basically given up on them seeing any consequences for it - it's been going on for a long time, so I assumed this is one of the cases where editors with enough "social capital" get an exemption from CIVIL. I doubt a trout will have lasting effect. - ] (]) 02:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| <div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #EDEAFF; padding: 0px 10px 0px 10px; border: 1px solid #8779DD;">{{Quote box2 | |||
| ::My experience with and attitude toward Hob is 100% the same as described here by Palpable. It goes back a while ... <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿ ] (] ])</span> 22:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
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| | quote = Now that a request for arbitration has been filed (permalink ), best to take any further comments there (non-admin closure) ] (] / ]) 16:21, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
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| :''The following discussion is closed. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> No further edits should be made to this discussion.''<!-- from Template:Archive top--> | |||
| ---- | |||
| :KWW and The Rambling Man had been engaged in an edit war on the Phillip Seymour Hoffman awards page, TRM adding awards and then coming back to add references and KWW removing everything not well referenced at time of addition. Neither was following adequate policy to discuss disputed changes. It escalated on their respective talk pages and finished with KWW blocking TRM for edit warring, an obvious involved block. | |||
| :Due to a combination of the edit warring and the disruptive discussion and the involved block I have blocked KWW for 72 hrs. I would like to request other admins and editors review the situation writ large and in particular both blocks. I believe mine was a necessary stop to disruptive activity however others may not see it that way. Any admin consensus here to unblock may be acted upon with my blessings without specifically asking me first. ] (]) 22:07, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Hob Gadling failing to yield to ], apparently missing both the discussion and RSN link from the talk page. Asserting an unreliable source as reliable in order to describe the subject as having a ‘victim complex’. ] (]) 23:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *{{checkuser|1=The Rambling Man}} | |||
| *{{checkuser|1=Kww}} | |||
| :Note that Hob edited the talk page after re-adding this content; he should have self reverted if he missed this discussion prior. ] (]) 00:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Adding links for convenience.<br /> — ] ] 22:16, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Propose''' serving of trout to both. Hob likely may have acted a hair too strongly to a source of exasperation; but not enough for any warning. Lardlegwarmers provides a large helping of such and I would suggest a boom if not for BITE. Albeit, Lardlegwarmers’ knowledge of WP is beyond the average for an editor with 5x the posts. I would suggest a non-logged warning to Lardlegwarmers on the concept of collaboration for their own good. Otherwise, we are likely to see them back here given their attitude at both this filing and at ]. (Disclaimer, I have been involved.) ] (]) 01:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:For context, ] is on the other "side" from me in a content dispute along with Hob Gadling (])] (]) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::I am on the "side" of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines and am not arguing any content issues here. But I did state I was involved. ] (]) 16:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Best not to imply that your opposition is not on the side of the rules. Given this comment and your involvement, I think you should recuse. ] (]) 00:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::Recuse{{smiley}} Appears that you have over 500 edits to Covid related article pages including their TPs. That's approaching 50% of your lifetime edits and 250 times the percentage of my edits in that area. Consider that in your short time here, you were blocked for egregious and repeated bad-faith assumptions. Probably should avoid that in future as this appears to be the same. Meanwhile, I stand by my post here and involved editors add value; so I will not suggest that you recuse. ] (]) 01:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::To be clear, I was suggesting recusing from proposals, not from discussion. Regards. ] (]) 02:10, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:If you click through the diffs, you’ll notice that many other editors have received the rude comments, so this is more than a 1-on-1 scuffle with me and Hob Gadling. I stopped compiling examples after finding 9 examples of visible hostility out of their most recent dozen diffs, but like I mentioned to ] above, I can go back further if you need me to, to illustrate the chronic pattern. And the handful of other editors who have spoken up here who have been aggrieved speak for themselves. ] (]) 03:31, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *As a note, Hob Gadling without comment and has not responded here. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *The only article talk page contribution by The Rambling Man is a single paragraph of ad hominem. The bigger problem is KWW blocking him, which is arguably a textbook violation of ], and precisely what the policy is there to prevent. The rationale was "''Violations of the Biographies of living persons''" which would theoretically be an exception, but I don't see how lists of awards would qualify, nor can I conceive that the majority of admin would agree, per the exceptions. TRM's actions are a different story, and the edit warring could have been handled here or by any uninvolved admin. Not sure what to do there. The block duration is fine, but the rationale is wrong, as is the blocking party. There isn't much we can do at ANI about that, and the loss of RFC/U means ARB is the only possible venue to even hear the case. That is where it needs to be. Either way, I think you did the right thing with what you had to work with, George. ] - ] 22:21, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *:Hob Gadling is allowed to do whatever they want to their user talk page including removing notifications of discussions. ] (]) 00:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::Never said they weren't. Just noting that they clearly received the notice and chose not to respond here, which is a response in and of itself. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{od}} | |||
| Wish Hob Gadling would not act like a profane teenager on talk page discussions and that they'd treat people without the smartass-y-ness and contempt. If they are so committed to being pissy towards other users while being shut-off in their own la-la-land, maybe they need a block until they're willing to face the music. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 01:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| It should be noted that Lardlegwarmers, after only truly starting editing two months ago, has been actively pushing ] misinformation, particularly on Covid related pages. They have actively been making claims that the scientific community is trying to cover things up, such as ], and has been using poor quality sources to try and claim that major published scientific papers on the topic are false, such as ]. This entire thread just sounds like an attempt to silence another editor who has been actively dealing with fringe POV-pushers across numerous articles, such as those linked by Lardlegwarmers above. ]]<sup>]</sup> 02:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *For ''uncontentious facts'', it's better to use {{tl|cn}}, even on a BLP. Removing very-likely-true-'''and'''-harmless-if-mistaken facts is really not protecting anyone from anything, which is the main purpose of BLP policy; BLP isn't a tool in a game of ]. There's no justification to wield the BLP Hammer here. This wholesale removal of facts, which editors were ''in the process of sourcing'', serves no purpose. Jesus, just give them a couple of days to source everything. Save the BLP card for when it's really needed, like when someone's reputation is at stake. Using it as an ace in the hole here '''devalues''' ] - makes it less likely to be respected in the future as a legitimate rationale. | |||
| :Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning. And it seems that's the case here. ] (]) 02:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :As for the blocks: Kww's was way out of order, and I was a keystroke away from undoing it when I saw Kww had been blocked too, and I (uncharacteristically) decided to not to act unilaterally once I saw it was getting more complicated. He was "involved", and (this is an aside, not my main argument) Philip Seymour Hoffman is not a BLP. His death a year and a half ago doesn't count as "recent". So if nothing else, Kww was involved in an edit war and was using BLP as a justification when it wasn't. And blocked the person he was in a non-BLP dispute with. | |||
| :*I haven't seen any evidence presented that would put Hob Gadling in the wrong; after reviewing the diffs I'm scratching my head and can only conclude that some of the people above have been commenting without reading them. Most of them are not even mildly uncivil. Going over them, the majority are clearly criticizing someone's argument (or the specific reasoning they presented), which is not a personal attack; and others aren't violations at all. Misplaced Pages editors are not forbidden from using profanity; the fact that Lardlegwarmers' unconvincing throw-every-unconnected-thing-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks approach here extended to the fact that their target used the word (gasp!) {{tq|bullshit}} to describe an argument that did, in fact, turn out to be bullshit shows how weak it is. What's more alarming is that ''that'' was what led Lardlewarmers to try and , a hamhanded effort whose sheer inappropriateness they remain sufficiently tone-deaf to that they made the mistake of bragging about it here as part of their "report". This is a straightforward ] situation. --] (]) 02:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I'd strongly suggest both be unblocked so they can participate in the discussion here. Both were handling this suboptimally, but if I have to choose sides, Kww's behavior here was shameful, while TRM's was just dumb. --] (]) 22:21, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :*:There's only so much we can handle when someone has had five years to fulfill their promise and "]" in situations like this one. Misplaced Pages would be better off if people were more willing to ] and stop treating ]. ] (]) 03:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*:The reason I cited numerous diffs was to substantiate, as I said in my post, that this is a ''chronic'' and ''ongoing'' habit of rude and uncivil behavior. I posted the diff of Hob Gadling's user page not to "brag" (and I don't understand how you inferred that), but rather to show that I followed ANI procedure to address conduct disputes first on the user page and that my attempt was dismissed without Hob Gadling addressing it except to blank the comment with the explantion that I wasn't welcome on his page.] (]) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I am not trying to silence anyone. See above, I recommend a stern warning about consistent uncivil comments and that’s it. If Hob Gadling has something substantive to say, they can say it without demeaning the editors as if this is a combat sport instead of a discussion about articles of text. I encourage y'all to check out the discussions linked to by Silverseren. I have been careful to use sources, present my suggestions in good faith, and stay neutral in personal interactions. I am genuinely trying to find consensus. I'll mention that Silverseren is also involved in the content dispute, providing sources that myself and several other editors believe do not verify an extraordinary claim in the article. (]) It's getting to the point where we should do a content moderation over that, since I am sure that the sources do not verify the claim but Silverseren apparently is sure that they do. ] (]) 03:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I think it was probably a poor choice for you to reference Silverseren's discussion as proof of one-sided UNCIVIL behavior. There is precious little in your first response to Hob in this specific LL section that makes your point that that you're trying to find consensus, but rather demonstrates a heavy handed ''I'm right because I can cite more WP policies in bolded type''. As the Alien above said, you '''{{tq|Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning.}}''' now ]. ] ] 18:57, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::No, TiggerJay, that is false. Except for one link to ], the links you mentioned are all main-space articles to describe the ] contained in Hob Gadling's arguments, including the use of ], as part of my intention to focus on and steer the conversation towards a discussion of the ''content'', not attacking the person (]). This is the second comment you have posted in this discussion that mischaracterizes my actions and falsely accuses me of bad faith.] (]) 19:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::For the record I do ''agree with you'' that Hob's position was absolutely a fallacy; I might assume they might have even been ] you. I also agree that you also have references to main space article, beyond the single reference to policy. I even agree that there is an probably conflict of interest with those virologists you named, but unless their editing Misplaced Pages that is irrelevant unless you're performing ] or ], rather we depend on ] and ] to help navigate such things. You claimed that you intented to {{tq|steer the conversation towards a discussion of the content, not attacking the person}}. However, that is not what I read in that . Out of the gate you're calling Hob uncivil, their arguments are false, and then lobbing further accusations. You get the discussion wrapped up arguing over who said what, and what they meant by it, and why your positions are valid and theirs are not. As for bad faith, I'll invite to other editors to comment below if they agree that I'm the one presuming bad faith towards you. Cheers! ] ] 00:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Your point about RS is well-taken. However, per WP:RS, concerns about the reliability of a particular source ought to be discussed on the article talk page (]) first when it is only germane to the particular topic and not the publication as a whole.] (]) 00:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I think I understand what you're referring to about RS. Yes, there are times when a source is otherwise considered reliable (or even un-reliable) but consensus can be found with regards to a specific narrow aspect of it that might warrant it's inclusion or exclusions, or some variation on how it is presented or the weight afforded to it in the article. And that comes through talk page consensus as you mentioned and does not necessarily need to be unanimous. ] ] 01:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Being entirely blunt, if we have two visions of Misplaced Pages: one in which people are occasionally rude or incivil to people who tout pseudoscience concerning major diseases and one in which pseudoscience concerning major diseases makes its way into article space then I'll gladly sign up for the rude / incivil Misplaced Pages over the pseudoscience one. This is to say that being rude is most certainly a {{tq|lesser offense}}. ] (]) 20:23, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::''Additional note'': See here: ], where GWH says he's Ok with someone unblocking both so they can participate here. I have to leave, so in case there's some kind of fallout I'm not going to do that myself, but I suggest an uninvolved admin consider it. Might help throw water on the fire. --] (]) 22:28, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :Certainly seems to be the textbook definition on an involved block; I don't see any way in which BLP issues are even close to excusing it. An unblock for TRM, at least, is in order; I think I'm going to go do that. Unblocking Kww to participate makes sense, I suppose. ] ]] 22:34, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| KWW was on the correct side of policy until the decision to use admin tools when involved in a content dispute. It would have been better to bring TRM's behaviour to public scrutiny. I think neither party comes out well in the end, I suggest we let the blocks expire(no objection to unblocking for the purposes of participating in this discussion of course). I think that George's block was reasonable given the circumstances. ] 22:36, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::No he wasn't Chiillum. Another example of your piss poor understanding of content.♦ ] 07:32, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::The burden of verifying something before replacing it once challenged is clear in our policy. I think you just enjoy finding fault in me. ] 15:49, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Unblocking both seems sensible. Neither user has covered themselves in glory here, but the big concern for me is Kww's clearly involved block. Might be the sort of thing ArbCom needs to sort out. ] (]) 22:38, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :TRM has been unblocked. I think it's only fair that Kww also be unblocked so that both can contribute here. Unblocking one and not the other isn't going to help. ] (]) 22:49, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Per this discussion I have unblocked KWW and urged him to discuss here. ] (]) 22:57, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::Kww abused his tools. He should be desysopped let alone anything else. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px Black;">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 22:58, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| As for why I blocked TRM, that wasn't until his disruption spread to ]. Take a look at the timeline: | |||
| # | |||
| # | |||
| # | |||
| # | |||
| # | |||
| # | |||
| # | |||
| #And finally, I block him. | |||
| As I've said, no different than I would have treated any other editor that insisted on edit-warring unsourced material into a BLP. TRM's experience level doesn't give him special privileges in that regard.—](]) 23:01, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :You are still not addressing any of the criticisms; if you do not adequately do so, I will file an arbcom case promptly. ] (]) 23:02, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::20 minutes. I ''am'' at work, and have to do what I'm paid for.—](]) 23:06, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::(by promptly I mean like, tomorrow IF there's no progress on meaningful discussion... I don't mean, drop everything in your life and bring me a shrubbery right now. Sorry if I left that impression...) ] (]) 23:28, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::Using your example, you deleting sections of what he was working on just three minutes after his last edit , which was just the first of seven edits deleting wholesale the awards. He was actively working on and sourcing them when you did this. | |||
| :::I would also note that WP:BLP is meant to protect living persons from negative material about them, it isn't a catch all for any content whatsoever in an article about them. Adding an prestigious award may or may not be correct, but it isn't what BLP was designed to "protect" them from, so claiming an exception to 3RR isn't really valid here. And that makes you ], even if not intentional. ] - ] 23:08, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :OK, | |||
| :#This isn't a content dispute. It began as intentional policy violations by TRM, policy violations that he has never acknowledged and shows no sign of understanding. | |||
| :#As to the contention that TRM was somehow justified: no. His "last edit" was a wholesale restoration of unsourced material. That's not in line with either the letter or spirit of either ] or ]: the citation had to be in place when he restored the material, not at some unspecified time after. At the time he began disrupting ], it's not clear that he had found a single acceptable source. | |||
| :#BLP is intended to prevent inaccurate material about living people. Both unsourced praise and unsourced criticism fall under it. The notion that the material has to be malevolent is inaccurate. From the nutshell: "''Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion.''" ] clearly and unambiguously applies to the material I had removed and TRM was inserting. Winning an award is a contentious item, as miscrediting the award ''does'' do harm to the person that actually won. | |||
| :#] shouldn't apply here, because of the "''One important caveat is that an administrator who has interacted with an editor or topic area purely in an administrative role, or whose prior involvements are minor or obvious edits which do not speak to bias, is not involved and is not prevented from acting in an administrative capacity in relation to that editor or topic area''" applies. I don't have any involvement with TRM, and my involvement with the area is strictly administrative: I remove material that isn't sourced sufficiently to satisfy ] and ]. As for Hoffman being covered by ], there's legitimate dispute there: I had thought the time limit was two years, but I see that it is phrased more softly than that, with the expiration coming between 6 months and 2 years, depending on nebulous factors. However, as the timeline shows, TRM was blocked for disrupting the Hugh Jackman article: no nebulosity there at all.—](]) 23:37, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::*Removing unsourced material is the act of an editor, not an admin. Thus, this ''was'' a content dispute, and so you ''were'' involved. ] ]] 23:44, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::*Removing BLP violations isn't acting in an administrative capacity? That's an interesting assertion, but not one that I think would have wide support.—](]) 23:57, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::*Asserting one's actions are "removing BLP violations" is not a trump card that makes your actions outside of scrutiny. The actual action should actually be "removing BLP violations". Your claim of them as such is not enough to make it so. If you want to know whether or not they ''were'' clear BLP violations, read this discussion for consensus. --]] 03:00, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::*WK, if the BLP is invoked, the implication is that it's not a content dispute, and I believe we have to take the admin at good faith (Jayron, whether something ''is'' a BLP violation or not is frequently up for debate). Part of protecting the BLP is protecting the protectors. That's not to say that Kww's invocation of the BLP here was reasonable; I have no opinion on that right now, but AGF should extend to these cases. If an admin in all honesty makes a ''reasonable'' claim that they are protecting the BLP, we should accept that. ] (]) 04:53, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::*@]: To the extent of blocking the other party in a dispute? No, I don't think I agree. I could see the normal exception in ] being invoked (i.e. {{tq|straightforward case...obvious action...any reasonable admin would have the same}}) in such a case, which as always is used at one's peril, but I don't think that invoking a BLP gives one a blanket exception to the policy against involved blocks; that's too slippery a slope. The ability to judge a situation dispassionately is too often the first thing to go in a dispute, and blocks specifically are too powerful a tool to be used in its possible absence. (Keep in mind that I am talking about ''only'' Kww's block of TRM here, not any other aspect of the situation.) Other admin tools, like deletion or page protection, might be a different story. ] ]] 16:17, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::*Oh, ], I wasn't talking about the block. I haven't read everything here yet, much less followed the diffs, but that block smells bad a mile away. I mean, most blocks stink, of course, but if one makes a block like this, even when uninvolved (and I have not yet measures, let alone judged Kww's supposed involvement here), it should be a reasonably crystal-clear BLP violation, not some business about getting awards or someone putting them in one article and thus denying them of another subject, or something like that. ] (]) 20:18, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * {{Nao}} Either ArbCom both, or ArbCom neither, here. I lean in the direction of "ArbCom" neither, as this is mostly silliness, not malevolence... --] <small>(] • ])</small> 23:22, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| **No, ArbCom is invoked here for alleged abuse of tools, which, if I understand it correctly, applies only to one of the two. ] (]) 04:53, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Déjà vu. An editor was AE-blocked for a week earlier this year for re-adding unsourced or poorly sourced (IMDB) awards section. ] --] <sup>]</sup> 23:36, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :Certainly was. I had forgotten that case: Cwobeel was AE-blocked for behaving precisely and exactly as TRM was doing.—](]) 23:42, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *That entire thread at AE is about how it is no big deal, followed by a week long block. Have we long our collective minds? Utterly overkill, and if actually enforced evenly, we would be blocking hundreds of people per day, none with any intent of malice. ] - ] 23:48, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::*Actually, most of this is prevented by filter 661, which prevents a very large subset of these edits from occurring in the first place. There are leaks, but generally the only time it becomes a problem is when someone edit-wars to preserve the BLP violations that have accumulated in an existing awards article. The filter was the only solution I could come up with that corrected the problem without creating these tempests.—](]) 23:57, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *As quoted above from BLP "{{xt|'''Contentious material''' about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately}}" (emphasis added.) Enlighten me, just how was this content "Contentious"? I understand that not all contentious content is negative (although BLP is most often cited in connection with negative content), but it can't reasonably mean "all content". What is being defined as "Contentious" here? ] ] 23:56, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :*Miscredited material damages the person that legitimately won the award. How do we ensure that material isn't miscredited? Citations to reliable sources.—](]) 23:58, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::*I don't agree. By that standard, pretty much all content in a BLP is "contentious" as it could always indirectly affect someone if it is inaccurate. I think there needs to be a good faith belief that it is actually incorrect or likely to be incorrect, or else a request for sources that has not been responded to for a significant length of time, before this sort of BLP removal applies to not obviously contentious content. ] ] 00:22, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *Obvious involved block by KWW, but the worst part is the wikilawyering above about how ] should not apply here... which sounds like "I'm ready to do it again". Right or wrong he was about the contents of the edit warring(s), his interpretation of ] boundaries is clearly silly nonsense. Kww should drop the stick and recognize he was patently wrong, otherwise that's probably stuff for Arbcom. ] 00:02, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Regardless of BLP our verifiability policy is clear about burden, but that is hardly the point. You were involved in a dispute over content, it was your edits that were being reverted. Another admin should have made the call. ] 00:01, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *Textbook involved block. Unforgivable. I'm looking for serious sanctions here against KWW. --] (]) 00:02, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :* Instead of a pound of flesh would you be happy with a recognition of error and a promise to not repeat it? I would. ] 00:07, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::*Between the bizarre interpretation of BLP ("it's contentious because I say it's contentious", seems to be the flavour) blocking another admin in breach of involved and the self-righteous issue-avoiding responses on the topic, I've lost a fair whack of faith in KWW and I'm not entirely sure that recognition of error and promises not to repeat (even if forthcoming, never mind the grovelling apology that's due) will restore it. --] (]) 00:15, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * Are we really prepared to state that removing BLP violations creates involvement? Given the AE decision, the notion that the edits weren't BLP violations don't hold water. We certainly don't believe that admins that revert and remove vandalism become involved as a result, so I do not see why BLP violation would be treated differently.—](]) 00:12, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::*It seems that collectively, we are resorting to blocks way to quick to start with (and with much too cavalier an attitude about it), plus the involvement, plus the lack of acknowledgement. You can't promise to not repeat what you don't claim to understand or be guilty of. At least not sincerely. Maybe we need to sleep on it, but this isn't a singular or trivial issue in my eyes. At the very least, I want more clarity than an apology can offer. I'm I really expected to block someone for adding back an award on a BLP? If not, where is the consistency? ] - ] 00:15, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::*Why yes, ], if you notice people inserting unsourced material into BLPs, I expect you to remove it. If editors persist in inserting the material without providing citations, I expect you to block them for doing so.—](]) 00:38, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::Regarding the comparison with the earlier AE - I think it's clear that Cwobeel was not making an effort to put in generally reliable sources on articles and did this repeatedly over months without fixing things. TRM did by the time he was done with (at least the Hoffman one) put in a long list including The Guardian, Bafta, the Golden Globes, NY Times, film critics groups who issue awards, etc. That result appears to me to match our community expectations and policies on source reliability and coverage. Even if we grant you the "contentious material" point, which I do not, refusing to allow sufficient time to put in reliable sources which one is in fact doing is the problem. The "immediately" does not reasonably mean "without exception and without allowing someone any time whatsoever to source something". | |||
| :::You appear to be asserting that it does, and if that's really going to be your final position, then this will end up at Arbcom. Much less the speed of escalation or the block involvement. ] (]) 00:17, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment'''<small>(uninvolved non admin)</small> Its a shame, and the actions here, edit warring by both, and and an involved block and then twisting policy to try and sweep it under a rug are far from what should be expected from admins. They should be examples of good behaviour not bad. Definitely an ARBCOM case in the making. Actions like this are why some question admin actions and put a mark on all admins. ] 00:19, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Just to make absolutely clear, I AM asserting that the edits were not a violation of BLP per the prior AE finding, prior WP history and community expectations. The prior AE was regarding ongoing patterns of edits that were never adequately sourced, not edits which were in the process of being adequately sourced in a prompt and ongoing manner. Cwobeel never fixed the problem. TRM was fixing the problem with what clearly appears to be a correct result (to me), and you allowed him no room to do so. Your rules and prior case interpretation are evidently so literal that your judgement is suspect. ] (]) 00:21, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::If we're in the practice of making things absolutely clear, I'm asserting that the sourcing needs to be provided ''prior'' to the restoration. None of this storm would have occurred if TRM had followed the basics of ], much less ], by restoring the material ''after'' he had found sources to substantiate it. His repeated insertions of IMDB, his edit warring over individual items that were not covered by his new sources while not providing citations, his repeated insults and attacks, all made it clear that he had no intention of abiding by our fundamental sourcing policies. If you can excuse this misbehaviour, I will point at your judgement as being suspect. This was, and remains, a case of an editor intentionally violating ] and ].—](]) 00:33, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Go back to the Hoffman article. As it stands, when he was done, please tell me if you believe that the end result of his editing work was a standards compliant sourced article or not. ] (]) 00:39, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Well, let's see: he and , he has never introduced a source that substantiates that material, so no. There are numerous other awards in the "Film Critics Award" and "Miscellaneous Awards" sections that have no sources, such as the IGN awards, Gransito awards, Gold Derby awards, the International Online Film Critic award, the Venice Volpi cup, the Utah Film Critics awards, and more. Have you been defending his edits without checking to make certain that the sources he supplied actually substantiated his edits? That's the point: he restored challenged material without providing any substantiating sources, in violation of ], much less ]. He provided sources that substantiated about half the article, and then .—](]) 00:52, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::The specifics of what's still not sourced adequately to your or policy satisfaction makes for a perfectly good article or user talk page discussion. | |||
| ::::::::The question of whether his "done" point is good enough makes for another one. | |||
| ::::::::The point is, you have now acknowledged that at least half of what he restored now *is* adequately sourced. You repeatedly acted in ways which attempted to frustrate giving him enough space and time to do at least that much sourcing and improvement work. | |||
| ::::::::The point also is, whether the material is justifiably describable as controversial or as normal content (which, though needing correct sourcing, would not require immediate draconian action, much less edit warring). | |||
| ::::::::The point also is, whether it is reasonable to read the policy or prior precedent in such a manner that prior fixes of the sourcing problems are required before re-adding material in general. | |||
| ::::::::The point nearly finally is, whether any of this was suitably serious of a violation to edit war over, act in an escalating confrontational manner in general, issue warnings and finally a block over, versus being something which should have been fixed in the normal way of things with discussion. In other words, was it abusive behavior or merely imperfect editing. | |||
| ::::::::And lastly, whether the block was involved or not. | |||
| ::::::::As I said elsewhere, TRM could have fixed this by acting differently. That's not the question. The questions are whether he actually edit warred (probably), introduced false or bad or controversial material by normal standards of controversy (probably not), introduced not yet sourced material (true), eventually corrected much of the lack of sourcing (you have yourself admitted, at least half of it he did). This picture, from a normal non-involved viewpoint, does not argue that edit warring to stop him, warning him, or blocking him were good choices, much less policy supported. ] (]) 01:11, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Actually, since his material about Vancouver contradicts the only source that he provided about Vancouver, I would say that he ''did'' probably introduce false material. I reverted obvious and intentional violations of our sourcing policies that were being accompanied by abusive edit summaries and talk page comments that made it clear that he had no intention of complying with them. As for whether his "done" point is "good enough", no, that is not a point of discussion. The material had been challenged. He had restored it against ], and has not found references that support it. There is ''no'' policy-based argument for keeping such material. Sourcing about "half" of one's edits while reverting against both ] and ] is not some kind of success marker: it's a sign of absolute and abject failure to comply with ], especially given that the article he was eventually blocked for was unequivocally a BLP.—](]) 01:55, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::*Kww, you have a such a monumentally ] attitdue to all this, that I am staggered as to how you became an admin in the first place. This is not the first place that you have shown such an inflexible and arrogant stance, while hiding behind your interpretation of rules that everyone else sees differently. However you try and twist things, you were ''']'''. That's not the sign of good admin, but it is somthing that is a massive red flag to all. Sadly I suspect you'll dodge an ArbCom bullet in this instance, but unless you start changing your approach and attitude, your admin days will be severly numbered. - ] (]) 07:23, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Sadly, this is not surprising in the least. Recently, an ArbCom case was filed against Kww and He seems to assume his biases are neutral POV, and therefore, everyone who disagrees with him is breaking policy. So edit warring is restoring an encyclopedia against disruptive editors, and it doesn't matter to be civil towards them because they're second class Wikipedians. Edit warring, disruption, incivility, all in the name of preserving the encyclopedia, of course. So it comes as no surprise to me that he edit warred here and abused his tools, it wasn't hard to see this coming. ] (]) 00:35, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| : Really? So we're just going to ignore the elephant in the room? It takes ''two'' to tango, and this wasn't the isolated actions of a single Admin. Was Kww blameless or "innocent" here? Heck no! But I've seen enough from The Rambling Man to have concerns on that end as well. Again, if this goes to ArbCom, the actions of both Admins should be examined here. If this turns into a "let's lynch Kww" (who, in my experience, I've found to be one of the better Admins at smoking out socks and vandals), I'll swiftly be joining the camp whove lost confidence in the Admin corps in general. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 00:43, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::The Rambling Man could have de-escalated or proposed sources on talk or could have edited sources into a sandbox version or several other approaches. I think that those are obvious and givens. That said; "it takes two to tango" does not mean that both parties actually did something worthy of an arbcom case. I think looking at both in the incident would be unavoidable, but the amount of button pushing seemed asymmetrical. ] (]) 00:52, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::All he had to do was not violate ] by restoring challenged material without providing an inline citation that supported the material he had provided, and ''especially'' not do it with respect to BLPs. That's not some major expectation that is beyond his capacity. As it stands, many of the claims in the article still aren't supported by citations.—](]) 00:57, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::: Sure, if you view it in isolation, and ignore the pattern of behavior... Anyway, I can already tell this isn't going to end well. For the project. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 00:59, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::For the Watch. ] (]) 01:01, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' (Edit conflict with several) (Following up Dennis's post of 23:08). I agree with Dennis that this looks like ] rather than a valid BLP issue. Kww also described the reversions on the PSH list as challenging the list's veracity which is obviously an editorial choice (thus, involvement), though he also considered the PSH award list edits to also be under BLP. A few seconds with a search engine was enough to verify several of the awards, so this all comes across to me as Kww trying to make a POINT (one that in my opinion didn't need to be made). PSH's more important awards are also already listed and cited in the main PSH biography article, which as an FA has presumably been carefully vetted, also deflating the BLP argument if the disputed awards were the relatively minor ones. Anyway, wiping out the whole list was excessive. I'll leave aside the block issue for now, but at minimum I see battleground conduct backed by bureaucratic overzealousness and/or seriously lousy editing judgment here. ] (]) 00:43, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Kww have you lost your mind?? These are famous actors who win oodles of awards, much of which can be verified with some digging. Saying this is contentious is really pushing it to justify edit-warring while involved. This behaviour is extremely punitive to all content-editors and undermines what's left of the egalitarian nature of this place. You could have looked and found sources but your nose was out of joint so you turned it into a battleground. If we apply this behaviour across the 'pedia, we'd have no editors. ] (] '''·''' ]) 01:08, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::NB: As Kww has no insight into the problem, I suggest a case be filed at arbitration for misuse of tools. ] (] '''·''' ]) 01:10, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::I belive it's true that an arbitratable issue is involved, but I don't believe it's hopeless than KWW can be shown the error of his ways through discussion. We should only file cases we can't deal with otherwise. We're not there yet. ] (]) 01:14, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I don't think it was normal edit warring in the sense of trying to push an opinion about the events described in the article. It seems to have been more about imposing an absolutist approach to Misplaced Pages policy enforcement (WP:BURO) for its own sake, in a situation where it wasn't helpful in the slightest. It would be great if Kww could lighten up about this, and realize that Misplaced Pages policies are means to an end, rather than ends in themselves. ] (]) 01:34, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *I echo the multiple people who note the ] nature of this. Whether or not TRM needed to be blocked for edit warring or not is now irrelevant. If he did, KWW needed only reporting him at ]. There's hundreds of active admins, someone would have taken care of it. Admins should not use their tools when interacting with people whom they are in an active dispute. This is a textbook case of an involved block. It may or may not have even been a ''bad'' block, but that's now irrelevant. I'm not sure any firm action needs to be taken against KWW, except ] and to log this in our collective personal memories incase this becomes a pattern, though. It was a bad action, but I don't see evidence that it was more than a singular, isolated bad action, and I don't believe we need to arbitrate or demand resignation or anything else like that. We don't even need an apology, an allocution, an admission or anything like that. It'd be nice, but really what we need is just to all know that KWW has done this once, and if it becomes a pattern, act later. It's documented, it's almost universally agreed to be a bad thing, and we should move on and just keep an eye open for further problems. --]] 01:25, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :*If an admin is unable to understand when a block is legitimate or not, when WP:INVOLVED applies and how to proceed in case of content disputes and edit warring, he is unfit to use the block buttons. Competence is required, let alone measure and common sense. And the major issue is not the block, but the persistence by KWW to justify it through a biased interpretation of WP:INVOLVED. So far, his responses read like "I'm ready to do everything I did again", which is unacceptable. ] 01:45, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::*Meh. People say stupid shit in the middle of an argument all the time. Have they ''actually'' used their tools inappropriately after everyone has told them it was inappropriate? If they haven't, we can chalk it all up to "people saying stupid shit when they are angry". If they DO use their tools inappropriately again, then we have something to work on. But I generally tend to ignore the bullshit people yell when they are pissed, because it is meaningless. --]] 01:51, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::*The protection war with Philippe a while back didn't involve blocking anyone but it did involve tools, and resulted in an arbcom admonition. The tool use seems like a technicality in both cases though. The issue as I see it is poor judgement combined with an overbearing attitude. I wish he would use a much different approach. ] (]) 02:02, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::*Actually, Jayron, if you believe I am writing this way because I am angry, you are only partially right. I am a little torqued, but it is primarily because people seem to be treating this as a content dispute, and that's primarily because of TRM's involvement. ] and ], combined with a supporting AE decision, make this pretty much black-letter law. I remove unsourced material from award articles all the time: it's one of our chronic forms of BLP violation. I warn editors that restore that unsourced material all the time. If someone insists on restoring unsourced material to a BLP, I routinely block them. It's not some case of me getting a hair up my ass about article content in any way that's different from reverting vandalism or other, more egregious BLP violations. What happened today was that the editor that chose to violate policy has a support base and people are more inclined to look upon it as a content dispute for that reason. If this had been an IP editor inserting unsourced claims about K-Pop bands, no one would have batted an eye.—](]) 02:04, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::*There's hundreds of active admins. You didn't have to be the one to do it. You're right, if this had been someone you'd not recently interacted with, no one would bat an eye. If it is a person you have a recent history with, ask for outside help. That's the proper way to do it. --]] 02:14, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::*I cannot remember any time in history that I have had a content dispute with The Rambling Man. Today was strictly about behaviour from the start.—](]) 02:23, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::*You were in one with him. On multiple articles. Immediately before you blocked him. As others have pointed out, ] is not a license to edit war indiscriminately on BLP articles, nor does it mean you can just block someone because you don't like what they are doing on a BLP. Even if what they are doing is unreferenced for a few minutes. If you are unsure as to whether or not others would have blocked TRM in this case, look around at this discussion. Almost unilaterally, no one else would have. Your argument is invalid. If you had asked here or at ] before blocking them, consensus would have been to not block them. Ergo, you're wrong. Any other ex-post-facto justification of your block is invalid. If you are going back and forth with an editor on any issue except eggregious vandalism or '''''negative''''' unsourced information about a BLP, it is your responsibility to ask another admin to do the review the situation. And again, if you're belief is "maybe it was negative". Read this discussion. No it wasn't. So just stop. --]] 02:34, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::*Let me clear up any confusion: I'm not TRM's fan. The dismissive and ease of which you are saying you block someone over them adding an award bothers me, particularly since it isn't exactly a great way to keep new editors and smacks of the love of rules over the end product (an encyclopedia), but the involved issue is the biggest concern. But again, my comments are not due to any love for TRM. Assigning the concern to a fan base would be a big mistake here. ] - ] 02:17, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Kww: Alternately; you're overreacting to editors generally known to do good editing, and rather than AGF with them you treated them like IP editors inserting random garbage, which is all sorts of wrong. | |||
| :::::It's not "just" a content dispute (on Hugh Jackman, that's a BLP) but you cried BLP on the Hoffman Awards list article and picked a fight with TRM, when everyone else above seems to agree that was the wrong thing for you to have done, and there seems consensus your application of BLP there was defective. That seems to have set the stage for whatever came next. Which took a grand total of 16 minutes and 11 of your reverts there, two warnings on TRM's talk page neither of which specified which article and which edits you meant. | |||
| :::::And you did not evidently give him sufficient time to make similar cleanups there as he'd done with the other one. | |||
| :::::Dude, sixteen minutes. You reverted 11 times, in sixteen minutes, without talking to him about the specifics or letting him fix things he was clearly in process of at least partly fixing. | |||
| :::::If your trigger is set that sensitively, it's off. You need to stop that. ] (]) 02:23, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::(clarification) that's 11 times in 16 minutes on the Hugh Jackman article, which is the now-specified reason for the block (not clear at the time). ] (]) 02:25, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Are you seriously claiming that TRM needs to be given specific instructions about what it means for a citation to support the material he is adding? That TRM did not ''know'' that the material he was restoring wasn't supported by inline citations at the time he made the restoration? And as for the eleven reverts, please: sequential reverts count as one revert. You would rather that I hadn't taken the time to look at the material he was adding and only removed the violating sections? I picked through his wholesale reversion and only removed the points that still violated policy after he had added an incomplete source.—](]) 02:38, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::* (ec) I don't think I'm part of TRM's support base, and I do think (as others have said here) that reverting uncontentious and undisputed material is much different from reverting vandalism or egregious BLP vios. Treating stuff like that as a binary rather than a matter of good judgment is what I mean by absolutism and bureaucracy. And a good faith challenge over sourcing requires (IMHO) a material concern that the stuff being challenged is actually erroneous. While it's true that the BURDEN is on the one who put it there, challenging verifiable material (especially uncontentious material) too many times is either a battleground problem or a competence problem, take your pick. Per WP:AGF we are not supposed to treat people's edits as vandalism unless there's actual evidence of a problem. ] (]) 02:18, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * (ec) I'm torn. (Not about wanting to hit KWW with the fish, 'cause I'm completely on board with that.) Part of me agrees with Jayron32 that we should stick this in our brains in case a pattern emerges, and if that's what everybody wants to do, I'm okay with that. OTOH, I have two worries. The first has to do with something KWW said to Jayron32 above, about an IP editor inserting unsourced claims, and it is that we wouldn't be here munching popcorn and watching the show if TRM weren't an admin. This would have been a regular old unblock request, through a regular old procedure, and we might maybe possibly could have a thread about it here hours or even days later. The lack of scrutiny prior to today's events could be enough to have Arbcom examine KWW's past admin behavior. My second concern is that it appears that if KWW himself has any argument with any phrase in any article/list about a BLP, he believes it to be "contentious," and that's not what I take the BLP policy to mean. It does not require or encourage the removal of all unsourced statements. If KWW really thinks it does, that's a problem, and it certainly appears that is indeed the case. ]] 02:29, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :*"Contentious" simply means that any reasonable person might believe the claim to be untrue. That does apply to most facts, yes, and ] doesn't apply to winning regional film awards. I think ] makes it pretty clear that these kind of additions do fail ]. I may not have remembered this exact case earlier, but I was a participant in the discussion and have taken numerous actions based on its conclusions. I do so habitually and without relying on some list of links to previous discussions.—](]) 02:51, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::Cwobeel was a problem in that he repeatedly failed to properly reliably source, over months, despite many warnings and much chance to do the right thing. You've already admitted that even by your standards TRM at least half-correctly sourced the changes on the Hoffman article, and you aren't disputing the timeline that shows that you didn't give him a fair chance to try to do so on the Jackman article. | |||
| :::Even if you dispute eventualism, failing to give TRM 16 revert-free minutes to make fixes is nowhere near the same as months. | |||
| :::The situations are not comparable. That you keep coming back to Cwobeel is part of the indication of a problem. ] (]) 02:57, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::''"Contentious" simply means that any reasonable person might believe the claim to be untrue.'' Kww, that is a drastic stretch or attempt to redefine the English language, to the point where the word means nothing and there was no reason to include it in the policy page. I'll go with ]: "1. Marked by heated arguments or controversy. 2. Given to struggling with others out of jealousy or discord." I can't imagine a sane BLPN discussion that would find those award mentions to be contentious, unless there was an ongoing dispute or issue with someone with a history of making bad edits. ] (]) 03:30, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Your right that Kww's reading would make our use of the word contentious superfluous. But I would adopt a much more expansive interpretation: first, if someone is making a good faith claim that something in a BLP is not just uncited, but is factually wrong, its contentious under BLP policy. And second, all negative assertions about a living person should be considered automatically contentious. BLP has never required a citation for every single positive factual claim about a living person, and it shouldn't be read to do so. ]] 04:06, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I'd say if you think something uncited might be factually wrong, you can revert it under ] without regard to whether it's a BLP article or not, as a content decision. While if it's a contentious claim in a BLP (and if it's negative, it's presumptively controversial and therefore contentious) you ''must'' revert it as a policy matter. The difference is if you make content decisions about an article, you are editorially involved in it and should stay away from it administratively.<p>I'll also add that the practice of flat-out removing stuff on suspicion of problems or DONTLIKE is obnoxious even if the stuff really isn't in good enough shape for the article (plausible uncited claim that you have good faith doubts about). The right thing to do is transfer it to the talk page and say what the problem is, per ] which is a part of ] that nobody seems to remember. The talk post then alerts other editors of the issue, and maybe someone can find a good citation or figure out that it's actually a misstatement of something verifiable, etc. (Obviously there are exceptions like bad BLP vios). What happens now is the stuff just disappears and the only way to find it is by grovelling through the article's revision history, looking at piles of edits that turn out to be contentless, and often made by de facto unflagged and unapproved bots. Hope that's not too tangential. ] (]) 05:48, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *I was catching up on this thread and almost commented earlier, at which time I would have said "per Jayron32". But I got pulled away, and now that I've come back, and seen the adamant "I'm right you're all wrong" position... I'm starting to think there's a more serious problem, if Kww is unwilling to accept a fairly clear consensus about interpreting BLP ('''not''', as he seems to think, about whether BLP is important or not, or needs to be "enforced" or not, but on interpreting what it means). He doens't need to agree, but he needs to accept consensus is against him - this was '''not''' "BLP enforcement" in any meaningful interpretation of the term. I remember that stupid ArbCom case someone above refered to (I was one of the Arbs, though in the minority): I opposed any sanction on Kww because the rules were being interpreted in a strict, sanctimonious, irrational way, to browbeat someone who was doing something that was actually fairly reasonable. But now it's Kww interpreting rules in a strict, sanctimonious, irrational way, to browbeat someone who was actively trying to do something about the problem (albeit in typical über-grump unproductive fashion). ArbCom was wrong to sanction Kww then, but Kww was wrong to block TRM now. If he doesn't see that, if he's going to stay in IDHT mode, then I'm not sure leaving this until it happens again is the best approach. Probably best to let him sleep on it. --] (]) 02:57, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :*I've certainly gotten the drift that many people don't think unsourced awards violate ] (although their reasoning eludes me). What seems to be happening here, however, is that people don't even wish to view TRM's edits through the lens of ]. There was nothing so urgent about having a list of awards for ''anybody'' that justified restoring the material prior to providing a source. Even if you all line up and say that everything I believe ] means is wrong and I just have to accept it, when did ] lose all of its teeth? Why is everyone so sympathetic to the restoration of unsourced material? ] keeps hammering at me for the "speed" with which I undid TRM's edits without noting that it was a sequence problem: if TRM had found sources for his material, added them, and then hit the "save" button, there wouldn't have been any reverts at all. I gave him his fair chance: I looked over his edits, removed ''only'' the material that remained unsourced while preserving every part of his additions that met policy. He responded by restoring them all ''en masse'' without providing a single source to back them up.—](]) 03:14, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yet you've admitted he fixed at least half of it on the Hoffman article, given time (despite the edit warring). That demonstrates that he was making progress towards an article adequately sourced by community standards. | |||
| :::Getting into the edit war was not the right response, you were assuming bad faith and not allowing reasonable time for him to work on fixes to the article. The faster you go on these things the more it blows up in your face. You should have been able to tell from the first valid reliable sources on the first article that he was working in the right direction. Failure to AGF on that point and let him work on it some is the problem. You responded like they were outright vandalism, not works-in-progress. You can't treat known-good editor making in-progress-eventually-good-edits like a vandal. If you disagree with the incremental manner you ask them to sandbox or talk page, not edit war over it. ] (]) 03:22, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Well, I , which he proceeded to ignore. Somehow, his constant use of the words "pathetic", "vindictive", and "ongoing destruction" didn't reassure me much.—](]) 03:43, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Starting that (linked) discussion with "Do not..." kind of makes my point, not yours. ] (]) 03:58, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I will ask you to bear context in mind: even if we 100% accept your perspective that I was dead wrong about it being a BLP problem, at the time I was interacting, I sincerely believed that I was dealing with an editor that was intentionally inserting BLP violations. That tends to influence my tone and demeanour.—](]) 06:32, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::TRM's response wasn't ideal, but I somewhat understand the dynamic. Sitush said something recently that stuck with me: "Content creation is a world that too many policers do not understand... In situations such as this, the stalker has the advantage because we all makes mistakes in content from time to time but the stalker only has to find one to push the button" (referencing a dispute unrelated to this one and whose details aren't relevant here). There's an understandable impatience that content editors have when they're told how to edit by people who don't write content themselves. Best thing to do is lead by example instead of acting like a supervisor and expecting people to respond like underlings. ] (]) 06:01, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::KWW, regardless, the appropriate response to someone ''actively working on an article, and slowly adding refs'' is not "edit war, edit war, edit war, scream ], then block". The appropriate response is slow down, let them finish their work, and ask for outside input. ''If'' TRM had no intention of providing refs, ''then'' such lack of intention would have become evident ''if'' you had allowed them time to do it the wrong way. Instead, you edit warred repeatedly, played the BLP trump card, and blocked them. Now we're here discussing your behavior, and more than one person above have called for your tools because of it. If you'd done nothing for 24 hours, and TRM had actually done the wrong thing you're claiming you think they were going to do before you stopped them, we'd not be having this discussion at all. There's no loss to the encyclopedia if you actually let someone break the rules a bit before blocking them, rather than stopping them before they have a chance to break a rule you think they might be on the path to breaking. --]] 03:27, 25 June 2015 (UTC)t | |||
| ::::Actually, TRM wasn't '''adding''' any material to any article; he was '''replacing''' the mass deletions or blankings that Kww had made without any warning, discussion, consensus, attempt at finding/providing references, or even tagging. Kww seems to have conflated part of the Cwobeel AE discussion into blanket permission for him to mass delete from any and all awards articles or lists as he pleases, and either block or edit war if his mass deletions are attempted to be reverted. It is a longstanding principle and guideline that the correct way to remedy a list or list article that may need, or would benefit from, additional citations is to either (1) discuss the issue on Talk regarding the most pressing of the concerns and enlist help or input, (2) place "citation needed" tag(s) on the item(s) that seem problematic, (3) place a refimprove tag at the top, and/or (4) better yet, provide the needed citations oneself. ] (]) 06:36, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *It seems to me that there are at least two different readings of ''"Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately"'' and to avoid further dustups like this we should either remove the word ''contentious'' or the words ''"– whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable –"'' this would either give us what seems to be KWW's position ''"material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately"'' or what I suspect may be the Rambling Man's ''"Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced should be removed immediately"''. Either option would be shorter and clearer, on balance I prefer ''"Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced should be removed immediately"''. But we need to clarify the situation because this is not the only occasion where people have clashed due to different interpretations of the same policy. '']]<span style="color:#CC5500">Chequers''</span> 14:53, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *:The problem there is that we end up with people wikilawyering that unsourced, contentions ''positive'' statements fall outside of BLP, which I think is not the intention. The word "contentious" is the problem. By definition, this became contentious as soon as Kww objected. As such, the most literal interpretation of the policy backs Kww (insofar as the Jackman article is concerned) - though that essentially creates a first mover advantage. The question, however, is what a ''reasonable person'' would expect. And in my view, it is reasonable to think that an unsourced list of awards can be allowed for a short period of time when challenged. I think Kww was right to challenge, and certainly right to challenge IMDB. But reasonably, he should have allowed TRM time to sufficiently source. So from that perspective - and despite obviously lacking some background interaction between the two - my read is that Kww ''started'' the edit war on the Hoffman awards page (not a BLP) and improperly cited BLP as an argument. Consequently, I don't believe he had the 3RR exemption he thought he did, and he certainly was INVOLVED in a content dispute. However, I have to wonder just what TRM was doing to go to the Jackman awards article specifically to revert Kww's clearing of that page from three weeks ago. I find it hard to view that as anything but ] and a conscious decision to open up a second front on their little battle as that was little more than an effort to provoke. ]] 15:27, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *::The best read I've seen on this so far. Challenging was fine, blocking this early would have been wrong from any admin as overkill, no less an involved admin. TRM isn't innocent, his issues just pale in comparison. ] - ] 15:34, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *::Hi Resolute. I suspect that one problem we have is that one person's positive statement is another person's contentious one. But more pertinently, my reading of the current policy is that KWW is not taking it literally. Taken literally the sentence starts with "Contentious material" and therefore does not apply to anything uncontentious. I'm aware that there is a different interpretation, hence my suggestion that we go for something that we are all likely to interpret the same. '']]<span style="color:#CC5500">Chequers''</span> 16:00, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *:::But you also have to use some judgement in how you react as an admin. Even if you believe "John won an Academy Award" is a BLP violation, you don't react as if someone said "John is a pedophile". Contentious might be "disputed", but you also have to consider the actual damage done to the subject when determining how to react. In some cases, blocking, in others, tagging or discussing further, per ]. Everything isn't as black and white as Kww appears to be making it, that all unsourced edits remotely tied to a living person are block worthy if the editor disagrees with him. ] - ] 16:09, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *::I largely agree with Resolute. But I think the description of the material being "contentious" goes too far. Kww didn't seem to be objecting on the basis that the information was incorrect, or likely incorrect. Just that the reliable sources had not yet been added, even though the sources indicated that the information was likely correct, and it does not appear that Kww did any checking to determine whether there was a need to object to the information. So I would not say the information was contentious. If TRM did not add reliable sources in a reasonable amount of time, there would be adequate reason to revert. But it was not necessary to immediately revert the information when Kww had no reason to believe it was incorrect, had at least some reason to believe it was correct (as IMDB is usually correct on these matters), and could have waited for TRM to provide sources. And, of course, even if the material was contentious, that does not excuse an involved block. Another admin could have handled that if it was necessary. ] (]) 16:31, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *I've started an RFC at ] to try and clarify how we want Contentious defined. This is hardly the first time it has been an issue. Comments welcome. ]] 16:03, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ===Background info=== | |||
| Kww has been on a deletion spree, devoid of prior discussion or notice or consensus, on '''Lists of awards and nominations''' articles, and '''has created his own special edit-blocking filter which prevents anyone from restoring the awards'''. I bumped into this on ]. When I tried to restore the 60 awards and noms (out of 62) that Kww had deleted, I was unable to, even after several tries -- instead a big red warning message with the STOP sign and the following text appeared: | |||
| <big><big>Awards and nominations must have citations to reliable sources validating each and every award received. If this edit is not an attempt to add unsourced material related to awards and nominations, please report this error.</big></big> | |||
| I reported the issue on ], and with some repeated questioning Kww revealed that this was an invisible tool he created and was deploying himself, after gutting awards articles, so that no one could add the awards and noms back to the articles unless each one had a citation. '''Please read the entire discussion in that thread'''. He stated that "Bear in mind: if you had actually succeeded with the edit, I would have blocked you if you persisted in making it after a warning." ] (]) 04:07, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :Edit filter 661 has been in place since the Cwobeel arbitration decision. It does, indeed, prevent people from making most additions of unsourced awards to awards lists. I've referenced it in the discussion above. It does tend to keep this problem from growing without provoking edit wars, simply by getting the editor to include the source when the material is originally introduced rather than letting it linger unsourced in articles.—](]) 04:22, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::I asked you twice about the genesis/aegis/origin/discussion of this edit-block filter, and your entire response was: {{xt|It's intentionally invisible, and I am the author of the filter. It simply enforces a fairly obvious consequence of WP:BLP, and, if you wish to discuss it, I would suggest that WT:BLP is the appropriate location. Be certain to mention that the reason you discovered it was because you attempted to add a massive amount of material about a living person without taking the time to verify that it was true, in violation of WP:BLP, restoring it after its veracity had been challenged, in violation of WP:BURDEN. Bear in mind: if you had actually succeeded with the edit, I would have blocked you if you persisted in making it after a warning.}} That's not what you are saying now. Again, please direct me with a link to the precise discussion/origin/aegis of this edit filter, if indeed it is the same one you posted on ]. Whatever its origin/aegis, I can guarantee it is being used against Misplaced Pages policy when, after gutting an article of 60+ public-record awards and nominations without warning, cause, discussion, or even tagging, it is placed on the article while ], again without discussion, consensus, or permission. ] (]) 04:33, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::I don't understand where you see that I am contradicting myself. Yes, I wrote that filter. I wrote it and installed it shortly after the Cwobeel arbitration enforcement. Yes, it is invisible to anyone without edit filter privileges, and it is invisible on purpose. It enforces what I believe to be an obvious consequence of BLP (a belief supported at the time I wrote it by that Cwobeel arbitration enforcement, although this discussion makes that less clear). Even if you reject my stance on BLP, it certainly prevents a widespread problem of editors violating ]. Any filter editor that reviews its history and content will see that it has been reasonably effective at blocking unsourced award additions, and is in no way specific to any particular awards article.—](]) 04:53, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Under the circumstances could you make it public, so there's no question what it's doing? (I can see, but others in the discn can't). Thank you. ] (]) 04:58, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::That would make it fairly useless, and I don't know how I could make it useful again after exposure. I assume that no one would believe that you are going to make false statements on my behalf at this stage of the discussion, so you should be able to reassure people that the filter was put in place roughly one week after the Cwobeel discussion, that I haven't edited it in months, and that it has no logic to look for any specific award article (although it does have logic to determine that the article it is dealing with is an awards article).—](]) 05:05, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::For the record, created 31 Jan 2015, last edited by KWW on 10 Feb 2015, on 4 June 2015 ] changed it to limit it to mainspace (previously had no namespace restriction so it would affect userspace). The targeting logic applies to the class of awards articles, not specific ones. I still feel that it should be made public but, yes, you have characterized it accurately there. ] (]) 05:14, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::(ec) ''Without bothering to verify it was true'' is ABF on your part, and the filter is massive overreach. If you watch the Oscar ceremony on live TV and see your favorite actress Jane Schmoe receive an Oscar and give a memorable speech, the need or lack of it for durable sourcing when you add it to an article is one thing, but it's bizarre to say you haven't verified that Jane really received the award. Stuff like that happens all the time whenever there's a live TV event like an important football game and someone updates an article with the score. And in general, people have knowledge that generally derives from RS even if they don't have the citations at hand, which they use when editing. Do I know that Austin is the capital of Texas? Yes. Do I remember where I learned that fact? No. Can you say I haven't verified it? That's silly, maybe I used to live there. You're using admin tools to impose an extremist vision on Misplaced Pages content editing. Please stop that. I'd go as far as to say are editorially involved in this whole awards thing by now, so you shouldn't be doing anything administratively in it. ] (]) 05:19, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{od}}Kww, Please link the discussion(s) regarding the (1) request for creation of, (2) the guidelines for deployment of, and (3) the permissions required to use, that filter. There is no directive or request for such a thing on the Cwobeel AE; the decision was simply that Cwobeel was "Blocked for a week and banned from editing BLP awards and nominations lists." . ] (]) 05:19, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :I have never claimed that any of those three things exist. I created the filter on my own accord, based on my understanding of ], ], and ], and did so after the Cwobeel decision reinforced my understanding of the BLP consequences of unsourced awards. I have had the authority to do so since the edit filter was first deployed. Edit filters are generally pretty cautious (this one is, actually, because its logic weights it towards large additions), but they are not generally publicly discussed because it makes them too easy to bypass. Review of its history shows an extremely low false positive rate: only a handful of edits that it has blocked weren't additions of unsourced awards.—](]) 05:29, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::*I find it shocking that you are so,dismissive of this, and the fact that genuine GF edits have been blocked by your filter, with the associated loss of goodwill involved from thos (and other) editors. Can I strongly suggest you get rid of this filter pronto. – ] (]) 05:37, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :I'm very concerned by such auto-restrictive blocks, especially when it's the whim of one person who has put it there. Are there other examples of these active that I've never come across? Are these common? "Misplaced Pages- the encyclopaedia that anyone can edit unless they run into Kww's filters"! This really does seem to be over-stepping the mark as much as trying to claim Philip Seymour Hoffman is a BLP. - ] (]) 05:31, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::There are currently 54 invisible filters active on Misplaced Pages. Some are monitor only, but most prevent edits. Many are targeted against individual editors, some prevent certain classes of edits. I'm responsible for three of them that prevent edits and one that simply lets me know that I need to examine some edits to see if it's a repeat block evader.—](]) 05:45, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::We are deep into sledgehammer and nut territory. An ArbCom decision to take action against someone whose behavioural patterns in this sphere necessitated action does ''not'' give anyone carte blanche to stick in such a disruptive filter '''without specific consensus to do so'''. IF this flagged up an issue to you directly so you could make a subsequent jugement call, I would have no issue with that, but it's just awful and obstructive as it stands. I strongly advise this is removed immediately. - ] (]) 06:45, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Added: making the filter invisible is more ABF. Saying it becomes useless if visible shows a presumption that everyone who encounters it is going to analyze it and try to work around it and is basically a vandal. It goes against our principles of openness. The filter should be turned off, but it should also not have been invisible. Even actual anti-vandal scripts protecting the project from real vandals are visible and their effectiveness doesn't seem impaired, so hiding the edit filter is just secretive and obnoxious. ] (]) 05:33, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :] KWW's edits were brought into question for the exact same thing. But hey, he's an admin, so that's fine. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 07:14, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| : A number of anti-disruption filters are hidden. With some there's no point because it's obvious what they're filtering and therefore obvious how to avoid them, but with more complex ones, and ones used against persistent and determined vandals, it's often better to hide the actual regex that it's using. ] 09:34, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::When a filter is targeted to a specific deliberate vandalism (edits made to harm the encyclopedia on purpose), the ABF inherent in hiding the filter (or writing it in the first place) is justified by evidence, and hiding it is understandable on a pragmatic basis even by those of us with philosophical discomfort over hiding stuff (I've never made an issue of the mere existence of hidden filters, though I think they are overused). In this case the edits targeted by the (now disabled) filter weren't vandalism, so the ABF was obnoxious. ] (]) 15:31, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Examination and discussion of these hidden filters is long overdue. But it's just a smokescreen here. Sure, we all know the TRM can be a pointy chain-yanker. But Kww should be made to hand in his little tin sherrif's badge, 'cos his trigger-happy attitude stinks to high heaven. ] (]) 17:13, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * These filters seem set to spring like traps upon unwary editors and then do nasty stuff to them such as removing permission bits. I'm not liking the award lists either which seem inherently intended to collect adulation of particular people in a way that violates ]. For example, there seem to be few scientists but lots of pornstars. As for BLP issues, the idea that you can automate this by checking for sources is absurd. In browsing the lists, one finds the topical example of ] which well demonstrates the problematic nature of the concept. This contains in the lead which has easily slipped through. I'm usually an inclusionist but think you could save a lot of aggravation by deleting every one of these lists. If subjects have significant awards then these will be for their notable deeds, discoveries, roles, &c. These should be covered in their main article and the giving of the award, such as the Nobel prize, will go best there too, endorsing the importance of that aspect. As for Sepp Blatter, I'm not touching his list for fear that some tiger or trap will spring upon me. Admins who act too protectively will find that they are making work for themselves as no-one sensible will touch such stuff. ] (]) 17:22, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::*No filter that I have ever worked on has taken any action against the editor that made the edit, ] In theory, the filter allows for automatic blocking and removal of autoconfirmed status. Automatic blocking of an editor was disabled on English Misplaced Pages before first deployment, because very few trusted an automatic process to do that. The ability to remove autoconfirmed status is still there on the menu, but I have never tried it. At this point, no filter on English Misplaced Pages automatically modifies any user right. They all log the edit, tag the edit, warn the editor about a potential problem and allow him to proceed, or warn the editor and prevent the edit from occuring.—](]) 18:04, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::*The trouble is, as I have ], an edit filter error on a good faith edit might as well say "get stuffed". It stops the edit, but also stops the editor. The general vibe that comes down from the WMF is that we are the encyclopedia ''anyone'' can edit. Just look at how passionate we are about ] or how grumpy people can get about protection, disallowed edits due to a filter are the complete anathema to what the Foundation wants. ] ] ] 20:00, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::*(e/c with Kww) I thought of asking for an admin to revert that edit (so they could fix any resulting filter actions that non-admins can't), but then realized I have no permission bits to remove, so I went ahead and reverted just now. ] (]) 18:08, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ===Proposal: Take this to ArbCom and examine both administrators' actions and history=== | |||
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| | quote = If you want to take it to ArbCom, go for it. Calling for a collective hanging from the yardarms first isn't necessary. There is no need to carry on this part of the discussion. --]<sup>(]) </sup> 16:40, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
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| This current dispute is between two very hard-nosed admins. As it happens, due to temperment concerns. Note the many opposes. There were a lot of reasons not to give this editor extra buttons. He prevailed in his fourth Rfa. A major violation of ]? No doubt in my book. As for TRM, he's been here forever. Pretty comfortable throwing his weight around at ], where I have been watching him for years, as he drifts into borderline abuse repeatedly. for posting what is a fine example of ]: here is an admin coming to my page looking for a fight. In my long term observation, TRM is a bully who should desysopped. Am I, and others who take issue with his hostile bluster, correct? I propose the community send this admin shootout to ArbCom, who can take evidence, look at the long term histories of both admins carefully, and apply sanctions. Common justice and the long term health of the 'pedia calls for no less. ]]] 06:05, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :I think this may be a good idea, since right now TRM is (or was) blocked and can't speak up at this ANI. We should at least let him have his say somewhere -- either unblock him and let him speak here, or let ArbCom check into the situation. Either way, no matter what, I think Kww's secret edit-block filter and his mass deletions/blankings of awards articles have both got to go. If it takes ArbCom for that, ArbCom it should be. ] (]) 06:48, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::TRM is unblocked but might be asleep or something. Any arb proceeding would of course have to look at both. Floq's suggestion of waiting overnight and seeing if people are thinking more clearly tomorrow sounds good from the perspective of arb cases being messy proceedings that we should try to avoid. On the other hand, there's enough evidence of long term problems that maybe we need a case. ] (]) 07:05, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::I received a brief email from TRM (who I don't know from Adam and have never interacted with or received communications from) that "I am actually unblocked but in these circumstances I usually just let things play out." (I guess he noticed my post above.) I agree on both points that you made. ] (]) 07:29, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Since when it P.S. Hoffman a BLP anyway? He's been dead 18 months. | |||
| I'm utterly astounded that an editor as shitty as Kww is an admin in all honesty. He completely lacks the temperament and fair minded approach to content to be worth of admin tools. If The Rambling Man agrees I'd suggest a desysopping of Kww and topic ban from editing award articles. His editing was disruptive, and TRM was clearly trying to protect content.♦ ] 07:30, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * I was confused about this as well, but then looked at the two editing histories. Hoffman is dead, but ] isn't. ] 09:30, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :*Yet it all started from Hoffman. Look at the timeline, he started blanking the Hoffman article, edit warring with TRM, claiming he was exempt from 3RR and warning him using the justification it was a BLP. Then, ], he moved to the Jackman's article. But all started from the Hoffman "BLP". I have to agree with Blofeld, I used to (also publicly) apprecciate Kww, but at this point he should be desypopped and topic banned from awards articles as a minimum. Except if he will post an extensive and convincing apology for all the bullshit he made and said in the last hours, obviously. ] 10:55, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| '''Oppose'''. TRM has done nothing to warrant an ArbCom sanction here. If it wasn't for the awful ] and against-policy step Kww took in blocking him, this would never have reached ANI, let alone anything more. I do, however, '''support''' taking Kww to ArbCom. Flagrant misuse of the tools, and his subsequent refusal to see any other point but his own (an inflexibility of attitude he has shown in other quarters) do warrant a closer scrutiny. - ] (]) 08:01, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :* If you take Kww to ArbCom, TRM will be a named party anyway and his conduct will be examined. In the end it doesn't really matter whether the title of the proposed case is "Kww" or "Kww and TRM". ] 09:32, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' although this discussion isn't required, as any person can file at Arb. That said, there are several questions here, beyond the involved block, and the only body empowered with deciding these issues is Arb, leaving us no choice. ] - ] 11:09, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' for now. Let's see if this can't be worked out without going to Arbcom over it. ] ] 13:42, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Oppose''' – Show me a ''pattern'' of abuse here (see: AntonioMartin case, etc.). Right now, all I see is a very ill-advised one-off. Neither Admin's hands are clean here. But I don't see a pattern of abuse of Admin tools here, just one case of over zealousness in "enforcing" Misplaced Pages guidelines. It is somewhat disquieting that Kww will concede no fault in this instance, but I'd rather ] in regards to all the other good this Admin has done and assume Kww won't make a mistake like this again. If the community "lynches" every Admin who makes a mistake with the tools, there will quickly be no Admins left, and certainly no one running for RfA (anyone thinking about running for Admin should look carefully at what's happening here and consider very carefully before making that jump...). Let's call this a "collective reprimand" and move on... --] <small>(] • ])</small> 13:48, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :: You want a pattern of abuse? Well, let's try the against consensus revdelling of the ] that other admins, particularly I, {{u|Chillum}} and {{u|Drmies}} all strongly opposed. plus lengthy talk page discussions on that page. Then, spinning back a bit further we have this kerfuffle with {{u|Floquenbeam}} over an unblock not being the letter of the law . Spinning back further, we have where he took an admin who had the sheer ''chuzpah'' to dare to unblock {{u|Eric Corbett}} to Arbcom, resulting in the loss of said admin. Anyway - Kww ''does'' do good work around here, but the "just doin' my job, ma'am" attitude really does cause more harm than good at times. I don't particularly want an Arbcom case either - they ''really'' cause more harm than good - but rather I would like all parties involved in this dispute to realise that something is seriously wrong here and take steps to correct it under their own steam.] ] ] 14:17, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *''' Support''' Although, as Dennis said, it's meaningless to vote on this sort of thing. In Kww's case, he has a horrible combination of poor temperament, hubris, and misunderstanding of policy. His gross misunderstanding of applied BLP policy is just the latest evidence in a longer pattern. Just recently, he . Inflammatory comments that at the same time show a lack of the ability to read policies and guidelines reveal that there is a deeper problem we are dealing with. Additionally, Kww's default position has always seemed to be to assume bad faith, a long pattern I complained about and this very attitude has now culminated in an involved block of TRM. If Kww fails to see where he is wrong, how can we assume he'll act appropriately in the future? He has shown that he's not here to build an encyclopedia, he's here to promote agendas and exercise his power even if it means abusing it. Seriously, do we want ] running around with tools? ] (]) 14:34, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' take ''what'' to Arbcom? The fact that KWW ''actualy'' enforced BLP on an article? There's no question that's what he was doing, and there's no question his block was correct. I have a better idea, shut down that idea and lay off KWW <span style="font face="Papyrus" size="4" font-weight:bold">] ]</span> 15:47, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :*No, his block was deeply flawed, and his action as an ] admin is what is being very rightly questioned by most people here. If we don't examine the circumstances of an admin's misuse of the tools, then we open the door to a possible problems for everyone in the future. - ] (]) 15:51, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::: Except that it's not admin misuse. KWW removed unsourced items in a BLP, that's what has to be done per ], The Rambling Man reverted the ''unsourced'' items back in which is totally wrong, so if you want to take about admin misuse , look there instead. KWW did right to block him as he was repeatedly adding in unsourced stuff to a BLP rather than looking for references then adding it back in once the references are found. Remember, the ] is on the individual adding material in, not the one challenging. No arbcom over this, it's straight up a good block, even if it ''is'' a bit ]. <span style="font face="Papyrus" size="4" font-weight:bold">] ]</span> 16:29, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::*Except that this also involves Kww edit warring while claiming BLP on someone who is ''not'' an LP, or a recent one. He was out of line on this one. He went from there to a rather petulant block of the same editor: that's a problem in my book, and most other people here, given the weight of opinion expressed so far in the thread. – ] (]) 16:38, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
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| ===Proposal: disable Kww's filter=== | |||
| {{archive top|{{nac}} Filter deleted by Reaper Eternal. ] 14:12, 25 June 2015 (UTC) }} | |||
| I propose that Kww's filter is disabled immediately. If he wants to have a filter or bot that flags up '''to him''' when edits are being made I don't have an issue, but I ''do'' object to this mindless/automated process which does this. Valid edits ''have'' been blocked by this filter, which should have been a red flag to anyone with a more flexible approach. The loss of the information from those edits, and the associated goodwill makes it clear this should be removed. I'd also strongly suggest to Kww, that rather than the knee-jerk reversions he seems so fond of, it takes only a shade longer to look for a bloody source! These are high profile people and are normally high-profile awards, so a simple search shows whether there is a problem. '''That''' is how you build an encyclopaedia, not by relying on flaming filters and bots to block good faith contributions. - ] (]) 07:49, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Strong Support'''. The secret edit-block filter, and the mass-deletion & content-restoration–prevention way it is being used, are a mind-bogglingly unilateral defiance of Misplaced Pages policies. ] (]) 08:00, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' I was going to make this comment above but here seems the better option now. I wanted to make the point that there are genuine reasons for keeping some edit filters hidden; some are quite easy to avoid if you know how the filter works. This is particularly important for ] cases and other high priority vandalism. I've known some LTA users to vandalise the edit filter requests page, making it quite clear that they know there is an edit filter logging their edits. On the other hand if a filter is set to disallow, it's not hard to get to that filter if it disallows your edit. Being able to read what it does would make some filters alarmingly easy to get around. That said, I'm not at all convinced that this is the kind of filter that should be set to hidden. It's not the kind that would be detrimental to the project if avoided, and I agree that transparency should only be avoided if absolutely necessary. ] (]) 08:10, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Strong Support''' -- as per SchroCat's rationale above. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px Black;">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 08:10, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Strong support''' per above, and further possible sanctions. I did try to restore Jackman's awards page and starting sourcing it and the filter blocked me with a ridiculous warning that ''every'' single award should be sourced and that anything else isn't acceptable.♦ ] 08:13, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Strong support'''. To be blocking edits automatically based on a non-existent "BLP" rule invented by the creator is completely against the spirit of Misplaced Pages. I'd go so far as to say that the very existence of this filter illustrates a sufficient ] issue that I'd support desysopping, even though it would mean the timesink of an Arbcom case since I presume KWW's "I'm right, the rest of the world is wrong" reactions above signify that he'd rather go down in flames than admit he's made a mistake, let alone resign voluntarily. – ] 08:15, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. I have to agree with this this proposal. If it simply warns an administrator about a potentially poor addition that's one thing. But that's too much power for a personal bot. The thing is, this is one personal administrative bot that we know of. Is this type of thing common among administrators? I mean I really have no idea if multiple other invisible bots like this exist and this just happened to be one we found out about. It gives the feel of some ] dystopian society. ] (]) 08:16, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' - Filters shouldn't be unilaterally implemented, as it opens them up to abuse. There needs to be consensus. — ] (]) 08:18, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Strong support''' - this filter appears to have been added unilaterally without any noticeboard discussion or consensus viz ] "''Implementation of AbuseFilter on Misplaced Pages is done with due caution — most abuse filters should be tested for a few days (in "log only" mode) before being brought to full force ("warn", "disallow" or "throttle" modes).''" I see no evidence this happened. Sam is right that per ] we shouldn't publicly disclose filters, but just a reassurance from other admins that the filters are okay would help, which we don't have. After all, {{u|ClueBot NG}} does all its vandalism reverting out in the open using a ], which means keeping filter regexes secret is ''not necessary'', as ] will stop them anyway. Work smarter, not harder! ] ] ] 08:24, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' - conditional on complete transparency regarding all other such filters. I had no idea such things existed, and per Fyunck, I am uneasy regarding all such "bots" in operation without scrutiny and oversight. I'd like to see a complete list of such bots. ]]] 08:29, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| **Their existence is not a state secret—you can see the full list ] (KWW's filter is #661). As Sam Walton says above, the exact rules of some of the anti-vandal ones are intentionally kept secret to prevent people working around them. – ] 08:34, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' I can understand the need for circumspection when filters are intended to catch out LTA stuff but not otherwise. That this one appears to have slipped through (or, at least, no-one saw it as a potential problem) makes me think we may need some sort of review mechanism for filters current and future. - ] (]) 08:36, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' Per much of what the others say. --] (]) 09:00, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' I've gone through the edit filter log, and checked the filters in question, #640 and #661 (which is what I assume we're talking about here). They're hidden so I can't tell you what they do but I think the implementation is weak, with admins complaining about false positives. I see that other admins have had problems with ]. And I think the ] could be implemented more intelligently. ] ] ] 09:06, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::*], the Top 100 filter had a disastrous error in it for an hour in Jan 2014. I don't think it has malfunctioned since then. 661 generated a false positive in userspace, which was the only complaint against it (since corrected) and 640 theoretically tripped in talk space (corrected, but it never actually happened).—](]) 13:19, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' it seems pointless to actually ''disable'' these filters, as they don't actually seem to produce many false positives. I assume therefore we are talking about setting the filters to log-only or warn, as opposed to disallow? ] 09:27, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :*But they ''do'' produce false positives, with all the crappy side effects that go with it (loss of goodwill, annoyance with the Misplaced Pages software etc) It's disheartening for good faith editors doing the right thing and then not being allowed to save their work. If Kww wants to reconfigure this filter to ping him when there is a problem so that he can deal with it directly, that's fine, but not as this obstructive faceless and Orwellian mechanism that does little good to anyone. - ] (]) 09:35, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::* Set them to log-only, then - the user doesn't see a thing then. ] 11:35, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' I would be very happy to see such a filter applied to controversial awards such as from the porn industry. I could understand extending the filter to other specific awards if we had a bunch of vandals repeatedly adding that award in a vandalising way, such as claiming various Islamic scholars had been awarded a lifetime achievement award by the Israeli Defense Force. I might also support changing our software generally to prompt people for a source either for all articles or all BLPs, but only if such a change was reflected in our policies, guidelines, training material and the user interface in a way that was consistent and user friendly. '']]<span style="color:#CC5500">Chequers''</span> 09:58, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per SchroCat. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 10:40, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Burn it with fire''' per Ritchie333, Blofeld and Iridescent. Also a close review of other filters eventually created/used by KWW is necessary if not urgent. ] 11:00, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Convert to Warn'''. Blocking is unjustified, but unsourced cruft is a plague on Misplaced Pages. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 11:05, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :* This seems like an eminently reasonable solution to me. {{small|I wonder if anyone will listen?...}} --] <small>(] • ])</small> 13:50, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per iridescent, at least for now. Ultimately, Arb should decide the fate of all this. This is simply too large an issue for ANI, where we lack any tools to sanction admin actions. ] - ] 11:12, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| <s>*'''Oppose''' take ''what'' to Arbcom? The fact that KWW ''actualy'' enforced BLP on an article? There's no question that's what he was doing, and there's no question his block was correct. I have a better idea, shut down that idea and lay off KWW <span style="font face="Papyrus" size="4" font-weight:bold">] ]</span> 11:20, 25 June 2015 (UTC)</s> <sub> wrong section for my comment - striking out <span style="font face="Papyrus" size="4" font-weight:bold">] ]</span> 16:20, 25 June 2015 (UTC) </sub> | |||
| ::What's that got to do with edit filters? If we blocked everyone who violated one admin's opinion of BLP, we'd have no editors left. It drives me nuts about people adding tabloidish sources to ] all the time, but I've never block over it unless there are repeated ''ad-hominem'' attacks added to it. Which is not what we have here. ] ] ] 11:24, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' There needs to be some sort of discussion and consensus before such a filter is delployed, in future. Not of the details of the regex or other filter logic, perhaps, but of the general existance, scope and purpose. Musch like the pre-approval needed for bots, I would think. ] ] 12:43, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' - I have deleted ] as an inappropriate use of the edit filter. The edit filter is designed to catch ''<u>abusive</u>'' edits; it is '''not''' to enforce content disputes. And no, Kww, contrary to your demands of me earlier, I will not "]" before I remove inappropriate filters like I have before. ] (]) 13:59, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{archive bottom}} | |||
| ==== Filters disabled ==== | |||
| As a result of this discussion, I have disabled and deleted the majority of my filters. The ones that remain are 550 (as it is used to monitor for "nowiki" markup insertion by a number of editors, including the WMF), 601 (currently disabled, but it's very effective against Colton Cosmic, so any filter editor may want to reenable it when he begins to act up again), and 667, which is a monitor-only filter. For anyone that's curious, the filter that Reaper Eternal refers to above (693) blocked the addition of the word "trans" to any article about Drake Bell: no false positives ever occurred. I put it in place after Drake Bell came under attack during the Caitlyn Jenner announcements. As a result of that filter being removed, ] has been on full-protection now for 24 days, all to allow for people that suddenly might want to discuss trans fat and transmissions in regard to Drake Bell. Seems like a poor tradeoff to me, but YMMV.—](]) 14:22, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :<small>I don't know whether to be annoyed or flattered that variations on my username appear several times in your Colton Cosmic filter. Probably both. ] ]] 14:38, 25 June 2015 (UTC)</small> | |||
| ::He liked to talk about you a lot.—](]) 14:50, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :If you think that is the main problem with your filter, then I don't even know what else to say, other than that you should have never given yourself <code>'abusefilter'</code>. ] (]) 14:52, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::I've made visible so that anyone can take a look and comment as to whether full-protecting ] was a preferable alternative to that filter (or an enhanced version of the filter if it actually presented false positive problems).—](]) 15:17, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::I only see 4 logged hits from filter 693, all of them edits from the same user, who has been editing through 2008. They are repeated attempts to make the same edit, about a controversial tweet by Bell, sourced to an ] article. While there are problems with the edit, it looks like something the normal BRD process could have handled just fine. Are there unlogged hits or expired logs? If there have only been 4 hits, it would have been much better to discuss the issue with the user. Even if the filter was needed, it should be seen as a limited form of page protection and discussed on the article talk page. I also don't see any reason to have kept it hidden. ] (]) 22:05, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I put the filter in place after a flurry of attacks on Bell. Reaper Eternal disabled the filter, and the page was put on full protection by ] a few hours later. The page has remained on full protection for most of the last four weeks. The filter has remained disabled since then, and even if it ''was'' enabled, the full-protection would prevent it from firing. It was intended to keep us from needed to fully protect the page, but others apparently find the full protection preferable.—](]) 23:28, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: Agree that your edit filter seems preferable – full protection for an article like ] seems slightly crazy to me... I think I may even take this <del>to ]</del> elsewhere. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 23:32, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Thanks for the background info. It looks to me like the long lasting full protection on that article was excessive, though it may have been justified for a little while after the tweet drama (June 1 aiui). Pending changes was (and is) another possibility that doesn't seem to have been considered. Taking the filter as a reasonable third option, IMHO the right way to deploy it would have been 1) announce it openly (like protection), posting about it on the talk page to let people know what was happening and discuss whether it was wanted; 2) have it display a message when it disallows an edit, saying what the problem was and inviting the person to post an edit request on the article talk page if it had stopped what they thought was a valid edit. The one edit that it did stop was reasonably valid: it had a decent source, though the wording could have been improved. The person retried several times, then gave up, making no attempt to use the talk page. Someone else then tried to add the same info without a source and was reverted (not as vandalism). However a quick web search shows there are tons of RS documenting the incident, and there was relatively little talkpage discussion about keeping it out.<p>Overall I'd say this filter was a basically reasonable idea, but executed with too much secrecy at both the technical level (it didn't need to be private) and the communication level (it should have been discussed on the talk page). Getting a good edit stopped by a filter is immensely frustrating because you have no idea what you wrote that the filter didn't like. Overall I prefer pending changes to techno-fixes like filters, in situations where just one article is affected. The most useful (and most dangerous) capability of filters is their ability to act across the whole site, supplementing Cluebot and what's left of the RC patrol. ] (]) 04:52, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :Thank you for deleting it, but looking at some of these edit filters...I don't know. Let's look at 616. In its current form, it reads simply <code>(user_name="187.109.239.254")&(article_namespace=0)</code>, which, invisibly and (had MusikAnimal not disabled it a month after it was started) permanently prevents IP 187.109.239.254 from editing anything in mainspace. I'm having trouble seeing any reason why this shouldn't have just been a month-long block of 187.109.239.254, which would have served much the same purpose--it's not like the IP was contributing to any other namespace--and have been transparent and non-permanent, as we require of such restrictions to IP editing. Why would you make this edit filter? ] ]] 15:14, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::It permitted the IP to contribute to talk page discussions of articles he was interested in, not just his own talk page. The IP's problem was that he refused to discuss changes. That filter was, admittedly, an experiment to see if I could find an approach short of blocking an IP that would permit the IP to still contribute. It failed. I would have disabled it myself short order.—](]) 15:25, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::If this is supposed to be a less harsh alternative to blocking, why would the filter be flagged as hidden from public view? And, especially given that the IP in question was showing no desire to contribute anywhere but in mainspace, how could that rationale possibly justify a completely-invisible-to-anyone-else pseudo-block? An edit filter, particularly one hidden from public view and particularly one that is permanent since you apparently forgot about it, does not provide the transparency required for admins to be held accountable for their actions. If that wasn't self-evident before you made the edit filter, then I don't really know what else to say. ] ]] 15:32, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :Look, if it's continual abuse from a blocked/banned user or something like that, then those filters can be a big help. But there still needs to be oversight. Perhaps all these invisible filters can be put in a special administrative section that passes muster amongst many administrators first? If a few others find it will be useful and helpful with minimal collateral damage, then it gets implemented with a watchful eye to make sure it does what it says. I don't want administrators trying to stop real vandalism with one hand tied behind their backs. But all administrators should be made aware of an invisible filter so we have checks and balances. Most admins I've dealt with have been as straight and narrow as they can be, even if they're yelling at me, but not all. I can't believe the filter we were mainly talking about would have been given the ok by any group of administrators. Far too restrictive and isn't really targeted at a particular user. ] (]) 16:26, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::I certainly think there needs to be a talk page for each edit filter, like every article, and every page. People can then discuss issues and suggest alternatives, and gain consensus. There is an area for discussion, but it's not structured like a talk page (more like an ''ad hoc'' revision history) and if the filter is hidden, non-admins can't get at it. They might still want to discuss the ''purpose'' of a filter rather than the specific content. Also, some filters like 667 are probably better off written as a script using the API or PyWikipedia so they can do machine learning. (Yes, I'd like to write something like that if I ever have time). ] ] ] 16:36, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :Would editors find it useful to have some structured non-ANI discussions (at one of the village pumps) about edit filters and when it should be appropriate to hide them? ] (]) 16:41, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::If there aren't any other problems besides this one, not sure what it would help. There aren't that many, and if an admin wasn't to question a hidden filter, he can at WP:AN without disclosing the hidden info since other admin can see it. ] - ] 16:57, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::There certainly has been a "What!? There are filters?! Nobody told me about ''filters!''" element to this discussion, and that's coming from editors with a fair amount of experience. That would indicate that we should consider elevating the visibility of the existence of filters.—](]) 17:21, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Yeah, I think at least raising some awareness would be appropriate in the circumstances. ] (]) 17:26, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Myself, I'm aware of filters and I assumed that administrators had a set of "special" filters to help them combat big problems. But I also assumed they were listed on a restricted page for all administers to use and comment on their effectiveness. Sort of what we all have on our preferences or gadgets tab. I did not know that administrators could create them and use them with no real oversight. Obviously some of these filters need to stay hidden or they lose their ability to work. We need to trust, when multiple administrators test and evaluate these hidden filters, that they work well and as intended. But when I see many administrators shaking their heads in wonder and surprise at this over-reaching filter that Kww created, then we know their policy on filters needs a big tweak to be fair to all wikipedians, including themselves. ] (]) 18:36, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::FYI There is a full list of filters and their current status at ]. ] (]) 18:49, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Yes but obviously not the invisible ones. Kww is being hit as having some underhanded agenda with this invisible filter. I'm not talking about his blocking a fellow admin while being deeply involved. That's a separate issue. But this misuse of an invisible tool. Having a vetting process where he submitted it to three other admins (that aren't his bff's) would also be protecting himself right now. So it's better for everyone involved. Instead of defending himself he'd be saying things like... I made it with good intentions and three other random administrators said they approved of it's functions. It might still get deleted if someone later complained, but it's end of story as far as some secret abuse of power. ] (]) 19:32, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::: Fyunck, FYI I know that at least one of the Edit Filter Managers and Admins should be able to see the invisible filters. I could see 661 fine when I went to look. So it's not "private secret" to the creating user; it's only hidden from people outside (I think either of those groups, but not 100% sure). ] (]) 20:19, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::I understand that George. But the way it sounds and looks, there are over 250 filters that I can actually see. I have no idea the number of invisible filters. It sounds like an administrator can create an invisible filter and simply add it to the list and that no one actually checked on what this Kww filter actually did. It got lost in the giant list of filters. At least if it undergoes formal scrutiny by other admins '''before''' it is ever activated, it has a better chance of being weeded out as this one should have been. It sounds like no one really checked this one out, and that shouldn't happen. There needs to be something in place to verify the usefulness before they go live. Maybe there is, but I haven't heard anyone talk about it. ] (]) 21:06, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::I might be reading what you're saying wrong, but I just want to clarify that a 'hidden' filter isn't hidden from the list; you can still see the name <s>and log</s>. It's only the filter details (conditions, actions, notes) that are hidden. ] (]) 21:09, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Should there be a systematic review of the edit filters that exist? Perhaps there are some which are no longer needed that could be deleted or disabled. I don't think editors are objecting to the existence of filters just that an edit filter can be easily created and forgotten without any oversight. And I think there shouldn't be an edit filter for an IP address which might be shared by other editors (or future editors). <font face="Papyrus" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 19:57, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::: There probably needs to be a centralized page where all the edit filters in use (and maybe even those that are "suspended" from use) are listed out, including what they do, and when they were instituted, so even though of us in the peanut gallery can see them. Doing so shouldn't be a big deal... --] <small>(] • ])</small> 20:08, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Since we're pretty tight on processing power for filters, old or inactive filters are regularly disabled. ] (]) 20:12, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::], as Samwalton9 noted, you can see the visible filters at ]. If there are other, hidden filters, then that is the issue. <font face="Papyrus" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 21:44, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::{{re|Liz}} Every filter is on that list - 'hidden' refers to the filter's conditions, notes, and log, such as ]. ] (]) 21:46, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::{{ping|Samwalton9}} Well, then the conditions of some filters are hidden but I can click on others (like ]) and see the conditions that trigger the filter. So, it is the filters whose conditions are hidden that should be checked by those who can view them. <font face="Papyrus" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 21:54, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::: OK, yeah – after perusing, there are a lot of edit filters marked "Private", and one could legitimately ask how many of those ''need'' to be "Private" and not "Public"... But, in general, this whole thing is above my pay grade... --] <small>(] • ])</small> 22:33, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| === Edit Filter policy === | |||
| There has never really been a documented policy on what edit filters should or should not be used for, or on precisely how accurate a filter needs to be in order to considered suitable for its task. I think everyone agrees that countering vandalism is a Good Thing and that interfering with good faith editing is a Bad Thing, but very little has been written about what that should really mean in the context of edit filters. In practice, the edit filters have been managed via the mutual agreement of a small handful of the most active edit filter managers. There are about 170 users with the user right, and all but about 20 of those are also current admins (many of the exceptions are former admins or WMF staff). So, the group of people working in this area is generally an experienced and thoughtful lot, but there are still only a small number of people that are really active in managing the filters. At its inception (2009) I was one of the most active filter managers, but except for a brief burst of activity a few months ago, I haven't been very active on the filters for years. It is probably well past time that we write out some sort of policy on what edit filters should and shouldn't be used for, when the private setting is appropriate, and what minimum level of accuracy a filter should have before it is allowed to give warnings or disallow edits. ] (]) 23:06, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :I agree that this would be a good thing. ] should really be primarily a guideline on how the community expects filters to be used, rather than an out of date guide. ] (]) 23:54, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::I've created a centralised discussion at ]. ] (]) 00:41, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :I agree wholeheartedly. I also used to be a very active edit filter manager (even before I was an administrator). A little over two years ago I raised concerns that the edit filter system was being abused and that many of the people that are currently editing them have very little understanding of the internals of how it is implemented (which is different from if they understand how the filtering works/how to write filter code). Since that time that abuse has been extended to the point where a fairly significant number of edits hit the filter (we have moved from "hitting the filter is generally suspicious" to "hitting the filter is a fairly common thing for newer editors"). I note that even ''log only'' filters used to be "no false positives". In a similar vein, there have been filters that have been turned onto disallow without even being tested, and several instances of filters that hit nearly edit being activated. I recognize that times can change, but honestly I gave up this argument years ago because it seemed like nobody cared. At the end of the day, the edit filter is really a backwoods area that only a very small portion of the community even knows exist (and then a much smaller proportion of that knows how to use it), and so if one speaks up with "this really needs to be fixed" the general response I have received is "who cares?" I'm glad to see at least I'm not the only one recognizing these problems, but I would hate to see the current use of the filter system actually get codified into policy. If we do that, then we are literally writing into policy "we do not trust new users to edit without intense supervision", which is what a lot of our current edit filters since become. --] <small>(])</small> 01:09, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ===Arb case request=== | |||
| Well, since nobody else seems to be stepping up, I guess it falls to me. I've filed an ], seeking resolution of the issues here, particularly of Kww's block of TRM. ] ]] 15:58, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *Thank you. I felt I had to consider filing since I called for it here, but frankly, it's better coming from you. Nobody likes admitting it, but Misplaced Pages is all about "clout," which is also actually what this ArbCom case is really all about, as I see it... Two angry admins with chips on their shoulders who would not back down. Bravo, and thanks again. ]]] 16:51, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| === Kww's edit filters === | |||
| After seeing the above discussion, I decided to take the time to review edit filters created by ]. A summary of my conclusions follows: | |||
| * ]: Gross technically deficiency in design, e.g. failure consider interplay of added_lines / removed_lines, possibility of "trans" occurring in neutral phrases like "transmit", or use on talk pages. | |||
| * ]: Technically deficient design, e.g. failure consider interplay of added_lines / removed_lines, possibility of "vevo" occurring in neutral phrases (such words are rare, but I noticed "Groovevolt Music" in the log). In his initial version it also prohibited "Vevo" to be mentioned on talk pages. Not entirely clear on the motivations, but this is not necessarily a bad idea for a filter if there is general agreement (]?) that Vevo awards are not suitable for inclusion Misplaced Pages. | |||
| * ]: Affected a wide swath of IPs without offering a warning message to explain what is happening to any false positives. Unable to judge the need for this filter or its historical origin because its motivation is not explained in the comment box. Something like this might be okay in the event of severe ongoing vandalism, but such events should be rare and this was active for a long time. | |||
| * ]: The targeted block of one IP from article space, correctly implemented. Personally, I think this is a waste of the somewhat limited abuse filter resources, but there has been no rule against it, and Kww apparently was looking for an option less extreme than a full block (a good intention). | |||
| * ]: Technically deficient design due to failure to consider interplay of added_lines / removed_lines. As a result this filter is simply swimming in false positives such that an editor will see a warning even though they didn't perform the indicated action. | |||
| * ]: Same added / removed problem. Of the filters that Kww created, this actually seems the best motivated from looking at the log, assuming we agree that anonymous twitter accounts claiming to repeat third-party news is not by itself a RS (i.e. ]). A better version of this may be worth restoring. | |||
| * ]: This is the one that already got a bit of attention because TRM triggered it. It is grossly deficient in design (same added / removed issue, no consideration of citation templates) and based on the discussion above seems very dubious from a policy perspective. | |||
| Based on this review, my opinion that Kww should not be writing filters. (I also think it is symptomatic of the fact we don't have enough written policy or internal review in the abuse filter space.) If it is deemed necessary, Kww's edit filter manager user right could be removed. However, I would hope that as an admin Kww would be willing to take criticism seriously and refrain from editing the filter on his own accord. ] (]) 05:46, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| : Can these filters be made public? ] (]) 08:46, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::I've made public those filters which were hidden as they were all disabled/deleted or did not warrant being hidden. ] (]) 13:55, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::That said, if 617 was reinstated it would make sense to hide it. ] (]) 13:58, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| I doubt I'm going to be doing much with filters in the future. Responses, though: | |||
| *693: This thing has been beaten to death. A simple filter, prohibiting the addition of the phrase "trans". Is it a filter that could have been left up, unattended, for months? No. As a quick "stop the attacks for a day or two in lieu of full protecting the article" it did fine. Since the phrase "trans" doesn't occur in the article and the filter prohibits its addition, theres no need for "added lines"/"removed lines" checking. That would have been an unnecessary waste of resources. For those that are unaware, Bell made a very unpopular tweet about Caitlyn Jenner and became a target of online attacks. His article remains full-protected today, nearly a month later. | |||
| *640: I had not spotted the "groovevolt" false positive, but again, since VEVO was not ''in'' any of the target articles and the filter prohibited insertion, and "added lines"/"removed lines" check would have been an unnecessary waste of resources. | |||
| *617: ] has been evading blocks for years. There's not a lot of anonymous Finnish IPs editing Christina Aguilera and Mariah Carey articles, and the alternative would have been rangeblock Finland or to semiprotect an enormous group of articles. I'm unaware of any false positives, and also unaware of any improvements I could make to the warning that didn't give Mathias instructions on how to bypass it.—](]) 13:38, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *616: An experiment in "less than blocking" an IP. It failed, and it's inactive. | |||
| *526: Once again, if the string ''doesn't exist'', there's no need to consider "added lines"/"removed lines", which would be an unnecessary waste of resources. | |||
| *529: Again: if the string doesn't exist currently, "added lines"/"removed lines" checks are unnecessary. | |||
| *661: The normal citation templates don't embed the "<ref" string, which is what the filter fed off of. This filter was actually fairly permissive, as it looked for the addition of entire new awards tables without providing a single citation for one of the awards. In theory, there are some edits to completely unsourced tables it would have prevented, and someone could have started the use of {{tl|refn}}. The defects here are not "gross deficiencies in design", they are optimisations based on the real world consideration: a filter that tries to evaluate every possible edit so that it can run unattended forever requires far more resources than a filter that takes advantage of known information and is monitored. I do look at 661 violations regularly. Beyond the repaired case of firing in userspace, the only other false positives it actually saw were an editor that decided to use template formatting of an existing, completely unsourced table.—](]) 13:38, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm not going to reply to all of these, but let me pick one. For #526, here are examples of users who saw a warning despite not adding the Brazilian 100 trigger text themselves, since there was no check on whether that text already existed in the line they edited: . And that's only from the first 40 or so hits in the log. Several of these involved people seeing a warning about adding a bad chart after making a simple typographical change in a line/paragraph that merely happened to already reference the chart. You say "they are optimisations based on the real world consideration". What you call "optimisations", I would call lazy implementation. A filter is unlikely to be perfect, but we do routinely expect filter editors to think through their implementations more than you have done with many of these. ] (]) 16:14, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{archive bottom}} | |||
| == ] ignoring discussion on talk page == | |||
| The problem with this new user is that he started editing the ] article after abandoning the discussion on the talk page. The matter is the geographical location of Armenia, an issue which is going on here since years (interestingly, on other main wikipedias there is no problem at all about it), and that causes recurring edit warring bursts. Several lenghty discussions on the talk page (i.e. this one ) established consensus that Armenia - altough in many respects can be considered an european country - lies geographically in Western Asia, and that in order to change this info one should find reliable geographical sources (this means geographical institutions, since physical geography is a science) showing a different geographical (not political) definition of Europe. In other words, if the Armenian academy of Sciences adopts a definition of Europe with its south east border at the Persian Gulf, we should take it in the article. Unfortunately, until now all the users pretending that Armenia lies geographically in Europe failed to provide these sources, bringing only sources which define Armenia "Europe" playing on the ambiguity between geographical and political definition of Europe. User:MELB1110 makes no exception to this behaviour. He abandoned the discussion, and edited the article first inserting as source for the geographic location of Armenia the BBC (). After my revertion assuming good faith, he brought a web site with a map showing Armenia ''in its political boundaries'' as belonging to Europe (). Unfortunately this web site (www.worldatlas.com) is a commercial web site. The reliability of this source can be determined observing that in the HTML page about Europe there are two maps of the continent, one with Armenia and one below the first one without it (). He ignored my comments on the talk page ( and, in response to another user sharing my same opinion ) and after my revert assuming good faith he started to edit warring (). | |||
| Attempts to communicate on his talk page did not bring much either (). | |||
| User:MELB1110 is clearly POV pushing (see also these edits on the same line - and - about Cyprus, both reverted), refusing to get the point, ignoring the lack of present consensus and going against previously established consensus on the talk page (also in other threads in the archives). I would like to point out too that the article about Armenia is subjected to discretionary sanctions by administrators, so that any editor should be very careful in dealing with this article. I brought this case already to the edit warring noticeboard, but there no action has been taken, since the user changed his edits, and altough edit warring at the end, he did only three edits. ] (]) 05:06, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| == OttonielWhite/Elindiord == | |||
| {{Userlinks|OttonielWhite}} has resumed making Twinkle reverts of valid edits without any edit summaries after the expiration of a one-month block for sockpuppetry. The sockpuppet, {{Userlinks|Elindiord}}, was twice blocked for the same behavior. This editor obviously does not understand what is wrong with their actions, has made no attempt to communicate, and should be blocked to prevent further disruption. ] (]) 11:03, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * Only one edit since this report was filed (which, it's worth noting, ...). --] <small>(] • ])</small> 17:12, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Lot more than one edit now, and it's really a pain having to go and undo all their reversions that don't have edit summaries. There is a serious ] issue going on. ] (]) 21:41, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| == battleground behavior and general uncivility by RGloucester == | |||
| The latest from {{user|RGloucester}} is his refusal to accept the outcome of the ] move discussion. This was a long drawn out discussion but consensus was quite clearly in favor of moving it. He has since been edit warring over the name in the infobox,, , , . He has now announced his plans on the article talk page to do another move request to change it back. After a chorus of people opposing such an idea, he made this edit indicating he believes that only his opinion is correct and that he WILL eventually get his way. | |||
| This is not the first time he has made such statements that things WILL go his way, which I feel is an intimidation tactic. He frequently makes demands and refuses to accept when things do not go his way, such as this checkuser request. | |||
| Additionally, he's being extremely uncivil at the Village Pump. He has violated ] by telling someone they are inferior and to accept their "station" in life . What I find most bizarre is that he stated that ''"God has spoken to you and your cause through me, and I've said what he intended in a clear manner.''" He also believes that nobody on Misplaced Pages has any rights to protest anything (which I suppose he does not feel applies to him). He has been blocked four or five times this year already (despite his claims that "someone who is right can never be blocked.") ) and his antics frequently feature on Reddit. I feel something needs to be done about this user, unless he specifically states his willingness to work with other editors, that he will accept consensus when things don't go his way, and that he agrees he is not the messenger of God on Misplaced Pages. ]<sup>]</sup> 😜 16:38, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * I believe that this can be folded/merged into the ] discussion above. It relates to the same set of issues. ] ] 16:52, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{reply to|BD2412}} it's actually a larger issue regarding one editor in particular and not specific to the Hillary Clinton article - there are other editors involved with the HC infobox argument. I think there is a larger and ongoing issue that needs to be addressed with RGloucester. ]<sup>]</sup> 😜 16:55, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::<p>Concur with ]. It's related, but RGloucester's battleground behavior and attitude deserve special attention. I would hope a warning would suffice. --] ] 17:00, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{replyto|Wikimandia}} Well, there seems to be a cycle where a warning is given or a "break" is imposed every few months or so. Given that's how it seems to be "addressed" on each occasion, I'm not too sure if it will be any different if the thread is down here or merged as a sub-thread into the above discussion. ] (]) 17:03, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' - ] is an editor who polarizes the community, who has supporters and opponents. "The community" at this noticeboard has never done a good job of dealing with divisive or polarizing editors. If anyone thinks that this editor really needs to be sanctioned, they can go to ]. I concur with the criticism of his sometimes extreme self-righteousness, as in his statements that he may not be blocked because he is right; but the community at this noticeboard has never dealt effectively with polarizing editors. In the case of his comments at ], my interpretation is that he has forgotten that, on the ], no one knows that you are being ]. ] (]) 17:10, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::I strongly disagree that being "polarizing" ought to be grounds for any action against an editor whatsoever. In this case, there are plenty of other specific grounds for action, without resorting to a vague charge of polarization, which could be used against any editor who has a mind of his own, and honestly says what he thinks. In this particular situation, RGloucester is simply being <s>dishonest</s> retaliatory. He is planning to move the article not simply because it should be moved, but explicitly in retaliation against "Certain editors have taken to the war path, ignoring Misplaced Pages policies, guidelines, and common sense. They attempt to eradicate the word 'Rodham', as if said word were vulgar." There would be no suggestion to again do an article move but for continuing efforts to remove "Rodham" from locations other than the article title. There is no need to point here to "polarization" because we can point to more specific bad behavior. Retaliatory editing is always bad behavior.] (]) 18:15, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' - It should be noted that American political edits are under discretionary sanctions per ]. To quote, {{tq|standard discretionary sanctions are authorized for all edits about, and all pages related to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people.}} If RG has been made aware of these sanctions <small>I just informed him of the discretionary sanctions ()</small>, ] would be the appropriate venue to air grievances and allegations of wrongdoing. ] ] <small>Please {{]}}</small> 17:40, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :* Can someone please explain ''exactly'' what this means to me? Does this mean that all post-1933 U.S. politics articles are under 1RR, or what?... --] <small>(] • ])</small> 18:51, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{re|IJBall}} Just standard ]. 1RR could be placed on a page by an admin if they felt it was necessary. But there's no blanket 1RR or anything. ] ] <small>Please {{]}}</small> 21:32, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::<small>Pssst...{{u|EvergreenFir}}, try using ] to link to the above; it currently links to Deletion sorting.{{smiley|wink}}<br /> — ] ] 22:04, 25 June 2015 (UTC)</small> | |||
| ::::::<small>{{re|Berean Hunter}} Thanks! Fixed! ] ] <small>Please {{]}}</small> 22:17, 25 June 2015 (UTC)</small> | |||
| :::: Can I point out that the list at ] isn't even in alphabetical order right now? Am I allowed to fix that? Please! {{Small|Pretty please?!!}} {{Smiley|wink}} --] <small>(] • ])</small> 22:42, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *This thread is a nonsense. First of all, I have not "edit-warred" with anyone over anything. I've not edited the article in a week, and have no involvement with the development of its content (I have never edited an "American political article"). I opened a talk page thread ages ago, which was promptly ignored by the likes of Calidum, who continued edit-warring with other editors over the infobox header, leading to the article's protection. Second of all, I am preparing to open a new RM because no moratorium was enacted, and because I believe that the evidence shows that the other title should be the title of the Misplaced Pages article. This is what those who "moved" the article did (such as well-known title warrior Born2cycle), filing new RMs at every juncture for years, so I do not see why I should not be allowed it? What is the reason for this apparent double standard? Furthermore, I find it absurd that I'm being taken to task over people who dislike my character. I have committed no wrong-doing, other than that some people here seem to have a visceral hatred of my very being. There is no justification whatsoever for an AN/I thread, or anything else. Yes, I oppose liberal activism on an encylopaedia that is supposed to be a bastion of neutrality. It isn't supposed to be a soapbox, or so I thought. Was that not the foundation of the project? And yet, merely voicing an opinion on the matter of these banners has brought fellows out of the woodwork, trying to sink my every act. What is the meaning of this? Why has this come to pass? Why are these editors able to go about unabashedly attacking the likes of me, incessantly playing at political advocacy, and yet I'm the one that's being chastised with a paddle? Explain, dear AN/I. Explain. ] — ] 17:52, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :* {{Small|(Uninvolved editor comment, aka. unsolicited advice)}} Bad idea, RGloucester. Even if you are "right" on the merits, back-to-back RM's never go down well, and yours will surely be voted down (not on the "merits") if you try this. You are best advised to wait about 6 months (or until Hillary!! gets elected – whichever comes first) and try again then. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 18:55, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' - Interesting. EvergreenFir notified RGloucester of discretionary sanctions, and RGloucester deleted the notification, saying that he has never edited an American politics article. Hilary Rodham Clinton is an American politician. To respond to Anythingyouwant, I agree that being polarizing or divisive should not be grounds for sanctions against an editor. Anythingyouwant stated that RGloucester has engaged in dishonesty and retaliatory editing, which are conduct issues. I meant that "the community" at this noticeboard has difficulty in dealing with identified conduct issues by polarizing editors, and that conduct issues by polarizing or divisive editors should be dealt with either by Arbitration Enforcement or by the ArbCom. RGloucester hasn't responded to my comment about dripping sarcasm on the ], which is a waste of pixels. I recommend that this thread be closed by an uninvolved administrator, and that any conduct issues be taken to ]. ] (]) 18:29, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Thanks for clarifying.] (]) 19:15, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::AE does not apply, as I wasn't notified of the sanctions until mere minutes ago. As such, I wasn't made "aware" of the sanctions until after the supposed "violations" occurred. Not that there were any "violations". You'll note that the sum total of my involvement with the HRC article is with regard to the title, not with regard to anything political. I have no involvement in "American politics", and know nothing about them, praise God. I do not consider the few edits I made to restore the infobox header to the consensus version a week ago to be "editing an American politics article". Insofar as "sarcasm" is concerned, I do not understand as to what you are referring. Please be clearer, and perhaps I can furnish you with a reply. ] — ] 18:34, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' - Perhaps my reference to sarcasm with respect to RGloucester's comments at ] telling other editors to stop challenging the will of the ruling classes and the will of God and to stop being so self-important was too kind, and perhaps either he was trolling or he actually believed what he said. It is true that those comments do not fall within the scope of Arbitration Enforcement because they have to do with European politics. ] (]) 19:41, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::I never say anything other than what I believe. ] — ] 19:45, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{reply to|Robert McClenon}}, I don't know exactly what "polarizing" refers to in this sense. I don't see anyone on the other side supporting RGloucester. The closest thing was the suggestion that he was being sarcastic when he proclaimed to speaks the word of God and insulted someone, which he has denied. He's also denied edit warring and apparently feels editing the politician's name in the infobox falls outside of ArbCom sanctions as it is not political content. Do you still suggest taking it to arbitration? You work in arbitration, correct? ]<sup>]</sup> 😜 21:30, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I can't speak for Robert, but I read his suggestion to mean taking it to ], not to ]. AE is where admins evaluate possible violations of ArbCom decisions, includng those involving discretionary sanctions, while Arbitration is a much more involved and time-consuming process which is generally used for new cases. Take a look at the content at ] and see if you think it's an appropriate place to deal with your concerns. ] (]) 00:01, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::My complaint about RGloucester is regarding their ongoing behavior, incivil approach and general diva behavior that is approaching infamy outside of WP (like this unwarranted on {{u|Drmies}}) that was on reddit). AE is just about people violating arbitrary sanctions. I haven't studied everything RGloucester has ever written, but it appears they've never made any admission or indication of meeting people halfway, just a ragequit when they demanded to be blocked. ]<sup>]</sup> 😜 00:13, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::My recommendation was in particular to take the issue of move-warring or title-warring about an American politician to ]. The name in the infobox is the name of a candidate for ], and that is certainly American politics. If RGloucester thinks that he can persuade the uninvolved admins at AE that that isn't political, he can try to persuade them of that. If someone wants to propose sanctions for incivility with regard to a European political issue, they can do that here. ] (]) 00:39, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::{{ping|Robert McClenon}} Firstly, there is nothing "uncivil" about stating that it isn't Misplaced Pages's business to be interfering in matters of law or government. Secondly, it seems that you, Mr McClenon, despite being being an Arbitration clerk, are not aware of ] procedures. I cannot be taken to AE in this supposed "American politics" topic area for anything that occurred prior to having been made aware of the sanctions. Given that I've not edited any American politics pages since that notice, mere hours ago, there are no grounds for an AE request in that topic area. Regardless, there would not be anything actionable even if AE was a possible route. I would remind Mr McClenon that Misplaced Pages is not a ] for certain political views. I understand that he may endorse the liberal views expressed in the discussion on the matter of the banners, but that does not mean he is able to initiate a sanctioning of editors who have different views, or view the neutrality of the encylopaedia as sacrosanct. ] — ] 00:49, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::{{replyto|RGloucester}} I think you may want to correct your second sentence, because perhaps quite fortunately, he is not an arbitration clerk anymore since he resigned last month. {{replyto|Wikimandia}} So to answer a question of yours which seems to have been unanswered - he does not work in arbitration. ] (]) 08:24, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *Furthermore, I would like to note that Miss Wikimandia's mention of certain off-Misplaced Pages websites of ill-repute does not do her any service. It makes it clear that she is part of a long-running off-Misplaced Pages harassment campaign against me as an editor, started late last year during the ] deletion debate. Said campaign has been ongoing, and has made editing nigh impossible in some cases. If anything, I recommend that she be sanctioned for participating in this campaign of harassment, and for participating in what has essentially been stalking. ] — ] 00:51, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm not part of any campaign to harass or stalk you. If your behavior has gained the attention of the wider world, that has nothing to do with me. I don't care about the "Cultural Marxism" page and have never made any comment about it nor have I ever edited it. You're entitled to your opinion and there's nothing uncivil about saying you oppose the banner idea... notice the many other people who expressed that opinion who are not being discussed at ANI??? However, you're not entitled to be rude. What is uncivil is your insults and inability to work with other editors, which is part of an ongoing issue you have of seeing yourself as superior to everyone (except God, who speaks through you, of course). ]<sup>]</sup> 😜 01:31, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::I beg your pardon? What "insult"? I never "insulted" anymore. I merely said that one should know one's place, as one should do. Mind you, this was in response to an outpouring of passion on the part of one editor, whereby he was in anguish over the fact that many of the photographs he has taken will cease to be in his ownership if the mentioned law passes. I was simply making it clear that he has no right to decide whether the photographs are his own, and that Misplaced Pages is not a place for passionate advocacy. It isn't for us to decide. That's a matter for the ruling class, for our betters. If they decide that these photographs shan't be able to be used, then they shan't be able to be used. We have no right to challenge the law. The law is the law, and it must be respected. ] — ] 03:39, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *The difficulty here is that there are two problems with RGloucester. (1) he's quite annoying - overblown pseudo-Jane Austen language, grandiloquent rhetoric, ironic references that only he finds entertaining, sometimes bizarre opinions etc and (2) there's certainly an element of ] in his approach. The first isn't sanctionable, although it would be better if he didn't do it. The problem with the second is that it gets so clouded with the first that it's actually a little difficult to assess whether it's bad enough that something need be done about it. I think there's a lack of diffs in this thread, outside of the HC latest, that clearly point to (2) - as opposed to (1) - being an issue. ] (]) 08:52, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :*That is an excellent analysis. I would add, however, that RG's propensity for actively and noisily not accepting the results of controversial community-consensus discussions which were settled only with great effort on many people's part can be considered to be ] and ] in and of themselves, since he tends to go on and on and on about it, and often takes steps which muck things up. ] (]) 11:20, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :I don't consider RG being disruptive. I've no problem with RG's passion for the topic-in-question & recommend we take ''no'' action against RG. As long as RG doesn't try to put ''Rodham'' in the infobox heading (via edit warring) or attempt to move the article itself back to ''Hillary Rodham Clinton''? then there's no probs. ] (]) 12:18, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *Rgloucester is the author of one of the most hilarious unblock requests I have read on wiki: On 18:24, 17 April 2015 he wrote "I refuse to be blocked. I am not blocked. You can pretend that you blocked me all you like, but someone who is right can never be blocked. It is impossible." If we can get more of this I think that is enough reason to keep him around for the lulz.] · ] 12:28, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ==Disruption at Jackson, Michigan high schools== | |||
| {{user links|JacksonViking}} | |||
| The above user has been brought here before by me (see links below). He has a very big ] problem with ] and to a lesser extent, ], the two high schools in ]. Evidence to his constant and unchecked ] and ] have, IMO, risen to the level of ]. I am asking for an indeff per NOTHERE, or lacking that, broadly construed editing restrictions on topics connected to high schools in Jackson, Michigan. Evidence follows. I leave the rest to the community. | |||
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| I believe the above, along with a browse of his talk page and contributions, shows amply evidence of a ] who has no interest in conforming to the community standards for either content or civility. Thanks. Notifying him next edit ] (]) 18:31, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :The edit summary "''{{diff2|668565152|Deleted a lot of content that was not cited similar to what John from Idegon does}}''" seems more than a bit ]. While much of the content was appropriately removed, there are some non-controversial bits which were blanked as well. The resulting page is left with several "place-holder" section headers needing cleanup. I'll look at that page a bit closer when I get home tonight to try to sort it out. --- ] <small>(] • ])</small> - 21:08, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::And now you see the ]ish behavior this user engages in regularly. Thanks to {{u|MarnetteD}} for reverting it. ] (]) 00:18, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| This is extremely aggravating how literally every mistake I make on here you bash me. A lot of those things you're complaining about were noob mistakes. I do not how to contact other users and you refuse to help me but instead you refer to me with vulgar language such as "bub". Second, every single edit I make is reverted by John too. I say he gets off my back. ] (]) 04:45, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Look at this too, John referred to my first comment on his edit page as taking out the trash. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3AJohn_from_Idegon&type=revision&diff=668569410&oldid=668569387 Very unprofessional] (]) 04:59, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *I don't know if you're not able to read a diff or if it's a deliberate misrepresentation of it, but all ''John from Idegon'' did in that edit, and what he referred to, was removing a duplicated section header... ] ] 08:41, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'd lean to misrepresentation. In the prior paragraph, HE referred to me as "bub" (not at all vulgar BTW) in the diff above labeled "further user page vandalism..." and I replied "So it's not bub now?" It's just another example of GAME. ] (]) 15:18, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Are you guys not even going to acknowledge the first paragraph I left here? ] (]) 23:35, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :{{u|JacksonViking}}, has it occurred to you that the reason no one is responding to the first paragraph you left is there is nothing to respond to? There is a welcome template on the top of your talk page that has links that could answer many of your questions. There is an invitation to the Teahouse, another place you can get your questions answered. You are posting here. You have (finally) posted at the article talk page, nearly 2 years after this whole debacle started. You are posting at the AfD another editor started on an article you created. Your claims of not knowing how to communicate are disingenuous. When you do communicate, you attempt to obfuscate the problem. You for example readd a huge block of BLP violating crap that you've refused to discuss numerous times, along with a minor and unneeded change to the notable people list. I revert, and You them charge to my User page, blank the entire thing and insert a whiny complaint about me removing your change to the notable list, totally ignoring the real problem. In the process, you refer to me as "bub" a term you find offensive enough to complain here that I used it. Is it any wonder you are not getting help from other editors? ] (]) 17:17, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{u|John from Idegon}} All I come on here to do is make edits and help educate the community of the world. You have been bullying me since I've joined by deleting all my edits regardless of their value. ] (]) 05:18, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{u|JacksonViking}} continues to make unfounded and unsupported accusations against me here, is engaging in ] discussion at ], and has refactored my comments here (sorry, can't seem to get the diff to paste from my phone, but it is the strikeout showing in my last entry above. If you look at the history you will see he did it and I cannot imagine a scenario where that could happen accidentally), all the while not even beginning to explain the behavior he was brought here for. ] (]) 07:13, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The diff showing {{U|JacksonViking}} refactoring your comment is . I have reverted that change and posted a caution on their talk page. ] ] 11:41, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *{{U|JacksonViking}}, are we really going to have to block you to prevent you from continuing to disrupt the encyclopedia and to help you grasp whatever is you don't understand? That's what happens here at ANI, you know. ] (]) 15:03, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| **In light of the latest, creating an article now at AfD that was primarily a copyvio (), I would suggest that might be what needs to happen. An indef, with the requirement of accepting mentorship before an unblock can happen. ] (]) 17:43, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| == User:DePiep == | |||
| I undid an edit by ] and added the subject "This was not a minor edit - you are changing more than just infobox parameters" () beacuse he was changing text from other editors. He undid it with the subject "grow up and learn to read" and I undid it again: "Stop it - you are changing the meaning of peoples text - look at the diff" and he undid it with "Get an editors life instead of tracking and bothering other editors. Create you own edits. And no, no contant changes because it's about par names". I confronted him on his talk page (), and asked for an apology, and he just said "And why should I not point to the "bothering" aspect?" Its not the first time, see e.g. ] (and especially from "I did notice there were multiple editors in this discussion, and DePiep ", and its not so long ago he was here at WP:ANI last time ]. ] (]) 22:47, 25 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| Adds unsourced material, eg. , despite warnings. Never adds edit summaries, despite requests to. Does not respond to talk page requests from other editors. Thank you. ] (]) 00:00, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *I only saw the one revert, but he is actually right. Took me 10 seconds to find the citation for it at The best thing is to just put it back with that reference. ] - ] 00:26, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *I also linked him to the essay ]. If someone is going to revert back, they need to be willing to discuss it, via ]. Since I've found the citation, told him on his talk page, I think we can wrap this up for now. ] - ] 00:29, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::]Yeah, discussed this person here a while back. The general consensus of the admin corps was leave him alone, he makes occasional minor mistakes and won't talk, but his overall contributions are net positive by far, so let him carry on. ] (]) 01:32, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ] has more than 40,000 edits and it looks like every one of them is mainspace. He hasn't used an edit summary in his last few thousand edits, and may never have used them. He adds material to articles, much of it potentially useful, but never adds sources. He has had hundreds of comments left on his talk page, but has never responded, ever. This is the world's worst case of ]. How do you deal with an editor who refuses to follow policy and refuses to communicate about not following policy? ] (]) 01:41, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| : In the past, IPs have gotten blocks around here just because they won't respond to Talk page comments. I've got to think the same would apply to account-holding editors. This is supposed to be a collaborative environment, and not responding to queries, etc. pretty much destroys that. The other editor I can think of in this vein is basically a Wikignome, and about 80% of his edits are constructive, while the other 20% are more unhelpful, but their edits are so gnomish that no one has pursued it further in that case. But I'm of the opinion that not responding to queries at all is unhelpful, no matter the "quality" of the edits, and can and should be the basis for Admin action. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 02:40, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::The editor helps create content without creating drama. Leave him alone. <span style="border:1px solid #900;padding:2px;background:#fffff4">] ]</span> 04:13, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::: Editors don't edit or create content in a vacuum. Is an editor really adhering to ] if they never communicate... well, ''ever''?! Look, I'm not saying to block for not communicating in this instance. But the ] is entirely correct – the first time this editor commits an infraction, possibly even an inadvertent one, they're likely to end up indef blocked because the Admins will have no other choice if they never communicate. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 05:28, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Amazing that the only non-mainspace edits were also article edits, to an article that's now in someone's userspace (and someone might want to take a look at that too). ] (]) 06:03, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *I'd probably recommend an attention getting block. I can't remember the name of the editor but I remember a similar case from a year or so back where an editor refused to reply to comments on talk pages. If I remember correctly, it took 1-2 blocks for him to realize that people meant business and he eventually began responding to comments and leaving edit summaries. Honestly... at this point he's been getting so many warnings that at this point the only way to show him that we're serious about talking with other editors is to actually back up our words with actions. While he may have made beneficial edits, he's also made some non-beneficial edits and he's continued to do this despite several very clear warnings about a lack of sourcing. I'm of the mind that his continued actions (despite warnings) shows a refusal to follow the rules. If this were any other editor he'd have been given at least 1-2 warning blocks by now. The only reason he hasn't received them is because he hasn't responded to anything. ]] 10:40, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' attention-getting block. If he were just making helpful edits, it would be no issue. But there's some problems with his edits. Looking at his talk page, he doesn't just add info, he removes it without explanation, and does not respond/correct various problems like disambiguation links he adds. ]<sup>]</sup> 😜 11:52, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :] of a user making (some) bad edits and refusing to discuss with others, leading to them being blocked. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 10:55, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :* Of course, it's worth noting that the result of that was that the blocked user in question ]... {{Smiley2|doh}} --] <small>(] • ])</small> 16:43, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' attention-getting block. If he doesn't want to communicate with people that is absolutely fine, but that does not mean that he can continue editing in a way which, whilst it is not going to break enWiki, has received sufficient attention here and on his talk page from numerous editors that it is now disruptive. I don't really see a material difference between his behaviour and point 5 of ]. His behviour is taking up more and more of other editor's time. I don't really see why he should not be blocked until he states, however briefly that he will act on the repeated suggestions of the community as I don't see a single post on his talk page that could be deemed to be a positive reaction to his editing. If he then wishes to return to silence that is his choice ] (]) 12:32, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *Not yet. We've had a few of these lately, which inspired me to write ]. The key here is asking how much disruption has he caused. One or two recent reverts is not enough. I've put him on notice, pointed him to the information that he can get blocked if he continues to revert without talking about it, the fair thing is to wait and see if he stops reverting. No one is required to talk here, as long as they aren't doing something that requires talking. The last thing we want to do is ] when it isn't necessary. ] - ] 12:54, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Good Lord. Leave him/her alone. --] (] · ] · ]) 13:26, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *"Not yet"? "Leave him/her alone"? Cliff1911 has made 40,000 edits in seven years, refuses to leave edit summaries, refuses to communicate and -- most fundamentally -- refuses to add sources for anything. If either {{u|Dennis Brown}} or {{u|Anthonyhcole}} would follow every one of Cliff1911's edits and add the reliable and verifiable sources required for these edits, I'd have no issue. Until then, we have an editor who refuses to follow bedrock Misplaced Pages policy and who seems to be operating in their own encyclopedia, not ours. ] (]) 14:34, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *The issue with this is that he's done this for years and he's been receiving warnings about his various edits since 2008. ] from 2011 shows that he'd been warned several times. He's clearly been warned dozens upon dozens of times about his editing and at this point he should be clearly aware that we want him to at least respond when people have issue with him. I mean, he's been brought to ANI '''''TWICE''''', ]]. He never responded in either circumstance and he was never blocked. At this point he's extremely unlikely to pay any attention to further warnings. I mean, at this point our lack of action is pretty much giving him the message that not only are his actions OK, but that '''''Misplaced Pages is condoning his actions because he made a lot of edits'''''. I mean, that's the message ''I'm'' getting from all of this, that an editor can be problematic and have the same problems over a period of six years and never actually have to face repercussions for repeatedly going against people's requests and Misplaced Pages policy. ]] 14:45, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :*Think about it this way: if he'd responded to us and basically told us "no way, I'm going to keep doing this, forget you guys" then we'd have at least blocked him temporarily. Well, that's pretty much what he's telling us with his outright refusal to even respond to anything. I mean, what does he care? If we continue on the way we have, he has nothing to fear - he doesn't have to change since people will argue that his amount of edits gives him immunity. (And yes, that is essentially what is being said here.) The length and amount of edits are nothing to sneeze at, but right now this is pretty much setting a dangerous example, that Misplaced Pages will turn a blind eye to problematic editors if they exist long enough on Misplaced Pages and edit enough. I mean, come on guys- this guy isn't going to change unless we make him pay attention and if he's not going to change then he's going to continue to make problematic edits, leave no edit summary, and refuse to talk with other editors. I'm not saying we should hang his head on a spike and never allow him to edit again, but clearly he's not going to change or respond unless he's at least given a 2-3 day (or even a week) block that forces him to stop and respond. ]] 14:52, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :*When I get time, I'm going to try to count how many of his last 50-100 edits have been unsourced. I'd say that the bulk of them (like 70-80%) appear to unsourced and while these aren't huge BLP concerns (ie, he's not saying that Cher married a fish), they're still BLP concerns because they're unsourced. He's fully aware that we require sources, yet he also refuses to source. ]] 14:59, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::You don't have to add citations to your edits. If someone challenges what you add without a good citation they may delete your contribution. I'm fairly sure edit summaries aren't mandatory either - at least, they weren't the last time I looked. Perhaps I misunderstood the above, but I thought his/her contributions were good faith efforts and generally good. I thought he/she wasn't vandalising, edit-warring or in any other way harming the encyclopaedia. If I've got that wrong, I apologise. --] (] · ] · ]) 15:09, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::This is correct, though most people start to get upset when they keep finding their edits get reverted and either learn policy or quit. ] ] ] 15:41, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *Refusing to talk isn't a violation of policy, and specifically, a person can NOT be compelled to participate at ANI. He's been put on notice: if he edit wars (an actual violation), then he will be blocked. Blocking him solely because we want him to talk isn't supported in policy. Unless someone can point to a specific policy that he is violating, then a block won't stand, as it would blocking to force them to do what we WANT them to do, not what policy requires. We aren't here to do that. There are many, many individuals like this here at Misplaced Pages, who act in good faith but won't talk. I'm not prepared to get into the psychology of it, but it is common enough. If he edit wars, I will happily block for 24 hours the first time, and otherwise follow normal procedure for behavioral issues. Not talking, by itself, is not a behavioral policy violation. It is a pain, but not a violation. ] - ] 15:21, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| I've spun through the last couple of hundred edits by this editor, and I cannot see any obvious clear policy violation other than possibly mild violations of ] through adding unsourced content. Most of the work seems to be insignificant plot summary gnoming. As Dennis says, if he starts to edit-war or violate real policies that can be backed with diffs, we'll look into it. ] ] ] 15:41, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| : Yeah, I think that's where I am now too. But I agree with the discussion on his Talk page as well – if it ever comes to a block, it'll probably have to be an indef, as that may be the only way to get this editor to communicate... In the meantime, if this editor continues to add anymore unsourced info to any BLPs, they should simply be reverted as a matter of course. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 16:50, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Absolutely do not block this person. The only question for ''this particular person'', since he's so unusual, is: is he a net positive, or not? If he's not, kick him off for good. If he is, leave him alone. | |||
| We cannot be at all certain that he is even aware of the existence of his user page, his talk page, or article talk pages, or how to use them. Any block of this person would perforce be permanent in my opinion, since he would presumably continue editing exactly as before when the block expires (which would then require longer and longer blocks, unless we were to back down), and he would presumably be unwilling (or possibly unable) to request reinstatement. | |||
| Some situations just need a good leaving alone. This is one of them. ] (]) 22:12, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *The question we should be asking is whether the disruption caused by this editor outweighs their positive contributions. While Dennis Brown's essay is very good and highlights good reasons why users ''should'' strive to communicate, there is no policy that ''requires'' any user to respond to talk messages or to use edit summaries, and I think it sets a poor precedent to start sanctioning users just because they don't use their talk pages. From what I see, this is an editor who is occasionally an inconvenience, but the disruption is extremely minor, and a long way off from being blocked under ] or any other guideline/policy. We all probably have better things to do. ] (]) 22:30, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :* While it may not be an "explicit policy", communication is absolutely in an ''implicit'' requirement of ]. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 06:44, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *The calls for an "attention-getting block" are ridiculous. So this guy/gal operates in this odd way -- big deal. On balance he's ''way'' more helping than hurting, so leave him for God's sake alone. ] (]) 02:40, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :*We can, but you've got to figure that he's had dozens of complaints over his edits and thousands of unsourced BLP edits. He's been asked to explain his edits multiple, multiple times. My biggest point with this is that the only thing he has going for him is that he's edited a lot. It's kind of well... this is what people talk about when they say that we play favorites. We could just ignore him now, but I can guarantee that he's going to end up being brought up at ANI again and I can guarantee that he's going to continue to collect complaints on his talk page from multiple different editors. Maybe it seems like this is all minor, but what we have here is essentially someone who is following their own rules and doesn't even have the consideration to at least ''respond'' to people's complaints. He's not following Misplaced Pages's rules, he's following ''his'' rules. If the two come together, then that seems to be mostly coincidental than anything else - he's been warned about several policies (using citations, for example)... and his reaction was to continue to ignore those policies. It looks pretty clear that nothing is going to be done to him, but I still have to extend the warning that eventually it's going to become necessary. He's adding BLP material without any sort of citation. The material may seem minor, but what happens when he adds something major? Something that someone might actually want to complain to Misplaced Pages about? What do we do then? Just say "oh, he edits a lot and refuses to talk to anyone, but ''he edits a lot'', he gets a pass"? He doesn't have to write a book or anything, but to my knowledge he's never spoken to '''''anyone''''' since he's signed up with Misplaced Pages and there have been multiple complaints about him - and those are just the ones on his talk page and at ANI. I have no doubt that there are probably at least a few dozen more in the edit summaries of the articles he's edited. Long story short, at some point we're going to have to deal with his BLP violations (even though they may seem minor to some) and his constant refusal to talk to anyone or to even follow basic guidelines. If he'd at least started using citations in his edits that'd be some improvement, but I don't see where he's ever really done even that. I really don't think that a long edit history and seemingly beneficial edits should give you immunity to everything on Misplaced Pages. ]] 03:20, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::If you want to keep pushing this, you need to stop saying he has to use citations. Except in certain circumstances, citations aren't actually required. Is he disruptively restoring unsourced material removed by other editors? I really get the feeling a few people just can't stand this guy's eccentricity. It's weird but leave him alone. ] (]) 06:40, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Uh... sourcing absolutely ''is'' a requirement on BLPs, which is what this discussion has been about. Yeah, sure, explicit sourcing isn't needed on all articles. But it pretty much always in on BLPs – adding unsourced material to BLPs is definitely not "OK" in most of the circumstances that count. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 06:47, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Is he putting in negative or controversial BLP material? And the graph above showing how all his edits are to articles....we are here to build an encyclopedia, so someone who is dominated by article edits doesn't inspire me to instablock. We keep rehashing the same arguments, but he has been warned, and unless he has new actions that warrant a block, then blocking is improper. And this talk of an indef block is completely out of policy. We use escalating blocks as needed, we don't indef block someone out of the gate for stuff like this. The tone is almost vindictive and I simply don't understand why, and frankly, it doesn't matter: we don't block punitively, we block to prevent disruption, meaning even if he needed a block, it should be proportional to the risk he poses, NOT just to twist his arm. ] - ] 06:57, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: Dennis, please see what I said above, as a follow-up to Ritchie – I don't think a block here is appropriate right now. That said, if this editor is adding unsourced material to BLPs, it should essentially be reverted as a matter of course. I'd like to believe that such reversions much get this editor to actually communicate then, but I suspect it's too much to hope for... But my overall point stands – we are building an encyclopedia together, in a collaborate environment, and as such communication is key. Those editors that choose not to communicate (like, ''at all'') will sooner or later likely crop up as a problem. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 07:07, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Well, when that actually happens we can deal with it. Or are we putting people in jail now for ]? ] (]) 13:39, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::: Well, I think the problem is that Cliff's editing is ''already'' an issue – not a "blockable" issue – but an issue (e.g. adding content without sources, adding overlong plot summaries as was potentially done at ], etc.), nonetheless. Which I think is Tokyogirl79's point. And that's where the lack of a communication becomes a problem – without communication, there's little hope of getting across exactly ''what'' others' problems with Cliff's editing is (the details just won't come across in single templated messages, even assuming Cliff is reading those), or prodding Cliff to change and improve as an editor. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 16:30, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *Let me give an example: He was threatened with a blcok by an editor on his talk page for adding someone to the list of people born in ]. It was a final warning. It took me all of 5 seconds to find a source proving this fact: (there are others, I just grabbed this one). It was an uncontroversial fact about someone who died 13 years ago. {{u|Magnolia677}} threatening him was completely inappropriate. It wasn't a BLP issue. People put in correct but unsourced facts all the time, it is how a Wiki works. ] does NOT require we source all facts. It requires than they are able to be sourced, and it assumes that someone else will source them. Obviously contentious facts about living people should be avoided, but this isn't the case here, this was a matter of where a dead guy was born. It isn't against policy to add this to an article, and it isn't proper to warn. Period. Revert as unsourced or simply go find a source like I did, we are here to build an encyclopedia, after all, but you don't warn or block. ] - ] 07:12, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :* Yeah, the level 4 on that was overkill. So was the level 1 vandalism warning that Cliff just got from User:NeoBatfreak for the additions to ] – Cliff's plot summaries there might have been over-long, but they certainly weren't vandalism... --] <small>(] • ])</small> 07:22, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :*{{u|Dennis Brown}}, it's impressive that it too you "all of 5 seconds to find a source". The problem is that Cliff1911 refused to spend those 5 seconds. He's never done it. He won't add sources, he won't leave edit summaries and he won't respond to talk page messages. If you're willing to clean up the crap he leaves behind after each and every edit of his, adding the required sources that he refuses to add, that's great for you, but Cliff1911 isn't doing that. We're here to build an encyclopedia by working collaboratively; he isn't. ] (]) 05:15, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *That pie chart must be unique for that number of edits on Misplaced Pages. However, what nobody has noticed or cared to mention is he extroadinary cyclic monthly editing pattern. Now ''that'' tells a story, but not one for which I am going to commit an indiscretion by publicly hypothesising. I say we leave well alone. If he does s do something egregious enough to be blockworthy, we block, but certainly not before. ] (]) 15:41, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| == Personal attack by ] against ] == | |||
| ] called ] "spammer" (in reference to {{his or her|Elspamo4}} username) and "too butthurt" in response to a completely legitimate action by ]. ] also previously renamed the same page to a more POV name without even mentioning it on the talk page, let alone creating consensus for it.--] (]) 08:45, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *In the defense of the page move, it looks like Murbarak the Great is a nickname/title that's used (, although it's not the common name and as such the article should remain at Mubarak Al-Sabah. I've left him a warning on his userpage about responding with hostility. If he does anything else that's hostile then I'd recommend a cautionary block, depending on ''how'' he responds or acts. ]] 10:25, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *I've also asked that he not move any pages without trying to get a consensus, mostly because he's a new user and because sometimes pages are under specific names for specific reasons. ]] 10:31, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *:Thanks. The page move I was referring to was of "]" to "Saudi Arabia-led war on Yemen", though it is correct he also moved ].--] (]) 10:39, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :*Ahh... that would definitely explain the POV move. It looks like there's still a redirect so if nobody objects I'll delete this. I'll give it a few minutes to make sure that nobody minds before doing this, though. ]] 12:07, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::*I've deleted it since it was a POV move and nobody has voiced any reason here for it to remain as a redirect. ]] 14:36, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *It is definitely worth keeping an eye on Khaleejian's edits. He has made some very edits, some of which could be seen as and some of which are . In my view, this instance of incivility is overshadowed by his inappropriate article contributions. ] (]) 13:39, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *FYI he's also began Project Pages on ] and ]. I can see the ISIL one being worthy considering the traffic, sensitive information and related pages, but ETIM? There isn't even a project page for East Turkestan or Xinjiang.... Of course, I only know he founded these because I looked at his user page, making me a "sad person with too much time on their hands." ]<sup>]</sup> 😜 14:02, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *:I'd like to note that neither project was approved by the ]. ] ] 14:06, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::Doesn't look like he's done much work on them but make userboxes to stick ok his userpage. He also wants to rename the ] article to Islamic State (despite recent failed rename proposal). ]<sup>]</sup> 😜 14:22, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Might this be outing ] (]) 14:20, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Interesting. Which forum is this and where can I join? J/K ]<sup>]</sup> 😜 14:22, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| == Topic ban user {{u|Huhshyeh}} from article ] == | |||
| User {{u|Huhshyeh}} has a single purpose account for ], since 2011 he is exclusively or mainly editing this page . Given article is . The organization is alleged to be militant organization but claimed to be social organization. User Huhshyeh is exclusively editing this article since 4 years and he adds only "social work" of organization that too from unreliable sources like "Muslim mirror" "two cirles" etc. He is probably activist of that organization or paid editor for that organization. He has been involved in edit wars on the page. --]] • 15:49, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :Since ] hasn't been shut down by the recent controversy about a particular block, this would be more efficiently dispositioned at Arbitration Enforcement. ] (]) 16:22, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{u|Robert McClenon}} yes you said earlier about arbitration but I thought first I should take this matter to ANI, also i'm having some problem on arbitration as I'm relatively new and don't know how things work at arbitration yet. --]] • 17:25, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *I want to give one stat, till now this user has made 365 main space edits , out of 365 there are 194 edits on ], 30 edits on ] which is political wing on ], 20 edits on ] which is another wing of ]. So out of 365 there are 244 edits he made only on pages related to one organization and that too "promotes" that organization using unreliable sources and pushing POV for alleged militant organization. Rest of his edits came on organizations which oppose "Popular Front of India" and obviously he defamed those organization. Hence this user is surely activist of that organization and this is his single purpose promotion only account since years. --]] • 17:25, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * {{u|Robert McClenon}}, I would ask you not to take ] fully. I was expecting him to provide accurate info atleast for this audience. So please have his statements double-checked, the most obvious one being "] being a wing of the organiation" PFI-wonder how a conference can be a wing? Also my last 100 edits were quite diverse I'd say, inclusive of a alternate political party ], edit following an ] actress ] open letter in support to women's safety, on the ] new triplet births, on evolving of the ] and an edit on ]. | |||
| The mention by ] of edits protraying the right wing truths of the ] - an organisation banned thrice in India for it's murdering of the father of the Nation ] amongst other extremities, is what hurts our "human" friend the most? Ironic, I'd say, given the intro the user has given. As requested, before, please have the page semi-protected ] (]) | |||
| ===NPOV and repeated unwarranted reverts by ] & ] & media sources=== | |||
| Am reproducing the talk on the page ] .ywoo | |||
| Pls have a check on the history of reverts unsupported by full facts by both user ] and his alias ]. | |||
| Wonder how the user discredits sources "Muslim mirror" "two cirles", and now added 2 more to the list "Mangalorean.com" and "daijiworld.com", while source like papers like the New Indian Express have been taken to task by the Press Council of India asking around 10 papers to "more careful" in publish such sensitive information.<ref>http://coastaldigest.com/index.php/news/58892-ib-nia-press-council-rubbish-medias-terror-claim-on-pfi</ref><ref>http://muslimmirror.com/eng/press-council-to-hear-pfis-complaints-against-10-dailies-on-16-july</ref> Oh yes, this information being from a minority newspapers should be wrongfully giving info on the PCI directives as well, I should suppose. Wonder where the space for alternate media went in WP? While the PCI directs 10 main streams newspaper to be careful of the content, and even asked them to publish reverts, small local newspaper - four of them atleast in ] view-are discreditted without any incident? | |||
| ], I don't believe it's your or ] or editors group created to unwarrantly discredit sources and a well wisher of alternate politics, supporter of backward and minority sections in an already marginalised Indian society. So there is nothing wrong in giving the giving out the other side of the story that is usually unsaid and partially brought out. This is Misplaced Pages, and not a portal for main stream media. | |||
| If that's not inline with the WP Ideology, let the WP Admins kindly communicate that. ] can go ahead to discredit {{u|Huhshyeh}} like you try to discredit the 4 alternate smaller newspapers . I edit with the same user, while this pages as seen a lot of aliases trying to blanks out the positives; as I have maintained in my intro, I stand for alternatives and against bias. ] (]) | |||
| s | |||
| "Human3015 should stop giving false information and justify reverts. Recent revert by the same user is false is 2 counts : | |||
| "Reverting content from unreliable sources and restoring deletion of sourced content from reliable sources" | |||
| @Human 3015, pls explain | |||
| 1. Reverting content from unreliable sources : which the "reliable" sources? | |||
| 2. restoring deletion of sourced content from reliable sources : please read again - there is no deletion of any sourced content here. | |||
| Edit, but simply don't revert, and don't falsify info ] (]) | |||
| ]simply doesn't read, simply don't revert - there is no PFI mentioned in the news sources. Hence section "Murder of VishalKumar" removed ] (])" | |||
| Alias Irrigator seems to have conveniently left out the media being discreditted by the very source in his revert "https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Popular_Front_of_India&oldid=668701237". @WP Admin, please note alias ] and ] for NPOV, selective omissions and unsupported reverts <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 07:46, June 27, 2015 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> | |||
| {{Reflist-talk}} | |||
| *'''Comment''' {{ping|Huhshyeh}}, we are not talking about content dispute here. Here questions are, Is it your single purpose account? Are you activist of PFI? Are you on Misplaced Pages exclusively to promote PFI? --]] • 10:31, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' already answered in above section. please re-read as you always miss out the main points ] (]) | |||
| *'''To the Admins''': I will quote two key sentenses of {{u|Huhshyeh}} which clearly suggests that he is hardcore activist of ] and he is here on wikipedia just to promote the organization. | |||
| **Quote 1: ''The mention by ] of edits protraying the right wing truths of the ] - an organisation banned thrice in India for it's murdering of the father of the Nation ] amongst other extremities, is what hurts our "human" friend the most? Ironic, I'd say, given the intro the user has given'' | |||
| **Quote 2: ''editors group created to unwarrantly discredit sources and a well wisher of alternate politics, supporter of backward and minority sections in an already marginalised Indian society. So there is nothing wrong in giving the giving out the other side of the story that is usually unsaid and partially brought out. This is Misplaced Pages, and not a portal for main stream media. If that's not inline with the WP Ideology, let the WP Admins kindly communicate that.'' | |||
| Here his statements clearly suggests that he is activist of PFI. He himself admiting that his edits are not belongs to "mainstreame media" but from "alternative sources". From his attitude of talking we can feel how committed he is to particular philosophy. As I said earlier in my comments shows that his nearly 70% of main space edits came on ](PFI) and its related wings. Remaining most of 30% edits came on organizations who oppose PFI. He is mainly editing same page since 4 years from unreliable sources. I demand to topic ban this user from said page. Thank you. --]] • 14:55, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' Glad that {{u|Human3015}} didn't omit the key part of the paragraph like he usually does in his numerous reverts (see above section for details) "So there is nothing wrong in giving the giving out the other side of the story that is usually unsaid and partially brought out. This is Misplaced Pages," WP isn't a the encyclopedia of the Mainstream media, it's the complete balanced factbook avaliable online. So all news -alternative and main stream- concerning any topic need to highlighted, not just the bias of a person part of a fascist right-wing thrice banned organisation ,the RSS . Am for alternatives, the complete truth - and you don't have to be a part of any organisation for that. Let the WP Admin decide accordingly. ] (]) | |||
| *'''Comment from the sidelines''': This is part of an ongoing war between pro-Pakistani and pro-Indian editors here on en-WP, with tit-for-tat reports at SPI, admin/forum shopping and everything else you can imagine, a war that is the direct result of {{U|Darkness Shines}} getting banned, a ban that changed the balance between the warring parties. A balance that until that ban had made Indo-Pakistani articles relatively peaceful (compared to what they are now). ] ] 14:51, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *I'm going to second what {{U|Robert McClenon}} said above, this is better addressed at ] as all involved parties seem to been notified of of ] and the subsequent motion. —]''']''' 15:04, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *{{ping|Huhshyeh}}, as admin suggested, I will go for ], but lets resolve this issue here instead of wasting time in arbitration. You should not revert edits done by other users from reliable sources just because they project negative image of your organization ], also you should not include lay claims from un-reliable sources just to project positive image of your organization. In some extent positive claims are ok even if they are from un-reliable sources, but if you keep on adding those claims then its not fair. --]] • 10:04, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *{{U|Robert McClenon}} ask you to check the validity of the reverts done, and if they do not adhere to the WP norms. The changes and reverts from end have been to all sides of the same story. And I can see users like Human3015 and Irrigator focus on the allegation, allegation confirmed by the Press Council of India to be false, esp. the claim of "militant" organisation - something falsely highlighted by the obvious supporter of a banned fascist organisation. I don't want to join that bandwagon, allege something because the PFI is anti-fascist, and finally eat our own hand. I don't represent any organisation, but am for, as my intro clearly says, to bring out the completeness of facts, facts that are shown skewed for the vested interest of some. I also wonder how credible users like Human3015, who discredit 4 sources in a week viz. "Mangalorean.com", "daijiworld.com", Coastal digest and Muslim Mirror all because they are not mainstream or from a minority section or both. I suggest that {{U|Human3015}} stick to the good ideal he has mentioned in his intro. As for edit and reverts, reason are clearly mentioned with clarifications in the talk page, and such justified transparent reverts shall be done for the PFI, AAP, RSS, Giant Panda Shenaz Treasury,Sachin Ramesh Tendulkar or any future contribution from Huhshyeh. Re-request that the PFI page in particular be semi-protected so that contributions for other pages can be concentrated as well, no just to keep the neutrality of a set of pages. Let's go the ], if needed, justice should be served. Thank you Robert, neutral editors, and admins ] (]) | |||
| :Making allegations of ] at editors without documentation isn't useful, and saying that ] is an alias of ] is either a sloppy use of language or a claim of sockpuppetry. ] (]) 15:04, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Yes, ], allegation without proof isn't appropriate - shall refrain from doing so. Pls do excuse me for the same. Incidentally, it's about the unsupported allegations on the PFI page that started all this. In any case, there is a section "Reverts" started out in the talk page, I think all of editors can reach common ground, mostly making the need for any further escalation unnecessary. Request to have page semi-protected is once again put forward; history of the page shows many blanking out from various IPs. Thanks for your time. Happy editing ] (]) | |||
| == Self-recall for The Rambling Man == | |||
| {{admin|The Rambling Man}} | |||
| Hello all. I'd like to request a self-recall, i.e. comments and opinions as to whether I should remain an admin just a touch more than eight years in the role. Recent events have demonstrated that there are serious question marks over my ability to conduct myself as an admin, and that I may be bringing the rest of the "admin corps" into disrespect; indeed I have often been cited as "one of the worst admins" and that I have "no credibility" on Misplaced Pages. While I fully accept my approach in many places and discussions has been abrasive and sometimes unnecessarily fighty, but I have never knowingly abused the tools afforded my by the admin bit. For openness, I have, in the past, been temporarily blocked for transgression of an IBAN and I was recently blocked by a fellow admin for a BLP violation (the outcome of which is discussed in some detail in sections above). The latter, and its subsequent fallout has determined this course of action. | |||
| The time has come that I do the right thing and submit myself to the community (well, ''this'' community) for scrutiny. For what it's worth, I'd prefer to keep the bit in order to continue to help out as and when necessary, and will endeavour to moderate my "snippiness" in either case. Naturally, I will stand by the result of the consensus as closed by an uninvolved admin. Thanks to all those who take the time to comment, pro or con or otherwise. ] (]) 16:13, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *This being ANI, I claim an exception to the IBAN, so that I can make this statement: I have had a number of disagreements with TRM over various issues, but I cannot think of any instances where he has abused his admin authority. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 16:44, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *Isn't this usually done through a ]? I know that this method isn't used a lot but, in my experience, ANI can be a forum where there is often more heat than light. I think you would want a careful consideration of your tenure, not just editors' thumbs up or thumbs down reactions. <font face="Papyrus" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 16:51, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *:I don't know, I wasn't aware. I'll leave a note there after I've put my son to bed. ] (]) 16:57, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :* Is there any advantage to taking it over there? That looks like a forgotten corner of the Misplaced Pages. (I can almost literally see the cobwebs...) --] <small>(] • ])</small> 17:09, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::*I tend to agree, there's one review there which has had no comments for about seven weeks. I'm "happy" to use this place right now, after all it seems to be the place where my most vociferous critics spend a lot of time. ] (]) 17:17, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *Sounds like a waste of time to me, as if there isn't enough of that going on already. I don't think there are many concerns by significant amounts here over Rambling's Man's general conduct. I might be wrong, but I can't see what benefit giving you a grilling would achieve here. If you've ever been combative, it's perfectly understandable given the arrogance of some of the people on the site.♦] 16:48, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{Collapse top}} | |||
| **One of your clique buddies continues to censor my pointing out of your own arrogance. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 23:27, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| **There is no one here any more arrogant than you are. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 23:18, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| **You need to retract that comment. No one here is more arrogant than you are. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 20:59, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| **Knock it off. You and your clique are the most arrogant users I've ever seen on Misplaced Pages. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 16:54, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::*Goodness, it took all of 12 minutes for you to go into pointless incivility and POINTy comments. Not your record perhaps, but well up there. – ] (]) 16:57, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::*Goodness, you showed up, right on schedule. Not your record perhaps, but well up there. And the others can't be far behind, unless they're asleep. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 17:05, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :Mimicking - how very mature of you. Your obsession over this non-existent "clique" really is paranoid nonsense. - ] (]) 17:19, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::*Doc, can I be in your clique? Go on, go on; I'll make badges for everybody. ] (]) 17:10, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{Collapse bottom}} | |||
| *I've had some issues with your style in the past, but not with your admin tools. Moderating your snippiness, as you put it, is all I'd ever ask for, and I'm glad to see that you're gonna try to do so. Your admin bit is fine by me. <small>(and yeah, liz might be right about the whole bureaucracy thing, but whatevs.)</small>] ]] 16:55, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * No issues, Rambling Man, will wait patiently for a GA review, --] (]) 17:01, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * The only thing you did wrong was edit warring, which a number of editors have gotten a bit heated and done over the years. That's an editorial / judgment error, not an admin abuse issue. The worst sanction I could possibly see happening (if Kww hadn't abused his sysop bit) would have been you and Kww getting blocked 24 hours for making a few too many reverts. ;) ] (]) 17:00, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * {{Nao}} My advice? – Take a one-year self-initiated sabbatical (after which point you can simply request your tools be returned, if you after a year you still desire to reclaim your tools). I haven't seen or heard of any evidence of abuse of your Admin tools. But your interactions with other editors leaves ''much'' to be desired. Further, you seem to enjoy "content creation" more than Admin'ing more anyway. So I can't help but think that a one-year sabbatical might be the best for all involved, perhaps most for yourself. Please know that this is nothing more than a good faith suggestion. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 17:03, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *:Interesting, although resigning the bit now would 100% be considered "under a cloud", so requesting it back would require an RFA. And it doesn't seem to be my admin'ing that's called into question that often anyway.... ] (]) 17:31, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *:: I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't see it as "taking a leave under a cloud" – if it's voluntary, it's kosher. (I.E. No one would be "forcing" you to take a sabbatical.) I don't know the particulars of the process, but I don't think an RfA would be required here (would it?...). --] <small>(] • ])</small> 17:47, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Just a couple of days after being blocked for a perceived violation of the BLP policy? I think cloudy would be understating it. ] (]) 17:59, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *:::: A "block" that's been universally perceived as being improperly levied. (Look, I don't want to see Kww desysop'ed for that – but even I think that your block in that situation was completely inappropriate, and should never have been enacted...) --] <small>(] • ])</small> 18:03, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::A "block" which has just been left forever in my block log without any kind of problem for the blocking admin. Anyway, thanks for your advice, I'll take it all onboard. ] (]) 18:05, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * You're fine, TRM (I don't mean that in an admiring your physique way; you may be fine in that way too, who knows?, not me). You have the tact of a sledgehammer and the finesse of a paving slab though. ] (]) 17:10, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * No issues. Best of luck, ] (]) 17:10, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * Your admining is fine. The role of administrators as ambassadors or whatnot is overstated. ] (]) 17:25, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :* There are two things about the way Adminships are currently viewed by many around here that really quite bother me: 1) that Adminships should be "lifetime appointments" (I couldn't disagree more with this), and 2) that the only consideration that should go into evaluating an Admin is their use (or abuse) of "the tools". The second one has become a real stumbling block around here to improving the Admin corps IMO. The fact is Admins basically serve a supervisory role on this project, and in real organizations appraising supervisors goes beyond just whether they "unjustly sacked someone" and looks at how they interact with underlings (and with each other). The truth of the matter is that a very important part of an Admin's job ''is'' in fact interaction with other editors (often esp. newbies). Take a look at two recent RfA's, Ritchie333's and NeilN's – in both cases, a recurring theme for their being promoted was their positive interactions with other editors, ''especially'' new editors. Even with Ser Amantio di Nicolao's current RfA, a recurring theme is the positive interactions other editors have had with him... So, really, I could not disagree more with the statement, {{tq|"The role of administrators as ambassadors or whatnot is overstated."}} Interaction with other editors is of paramount importance in appraising how an Admin is doing their job. It's not just about "tools". --] <small>(] • ])</small> 18:00, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::* Administrators are not part of a rigid power structure; they are held directly accountable to the community. There are plenty "real" organisations which operate ]. A candidate's feistiness serves as an indicator of the possibility of their abusing the tools; it is not the expectation that admins have otherwise got to behave better than the herd. Trying to get along with each other is important for everyone. ] (]) 18:15, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::* Again, we're getting lost in the obsessive focus on the "tools". Appropriate interaction is especially important from Admins. Admins should and must be held to a higher standard. Saying there isn't a "rigid power structure" doesn't negate that there ''is'' one, in fact. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 18:39, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::* I do not agree that admins should be held to a higher behavioural standard than the rest of us and hence I do not consider his frequent abrasiveness to be a reason to resign. You're begging the question; yes, if you claim that admins must behave better, then there is a power structure. Do note, I ''do'' think that admins need to be on their best behaviour when doing admin work. ] (]) 18:49, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * Since you're asking for feedback: Can you explain why you edited through full protection ? --] ] 17:45, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *:Sure, my interpretation of that particular admin action was very similar to ] where an involved admin was overstepping the mark by shutting down ongoing discussion. It should have been down to someone else to do that. ] (]) 17:48, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *:: But the protection policy doesn't allow administrators to edit through full protection to express displeasure with the protection, or because they don't feel the protection is valid. --] ] 17:55, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Well my bad. It was still the wrong thing for the admin to do. ] (]) 17:58, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *Should you resign? Yes. Have you abused your tools? Yes. Why should you resign and how have you abused the tools? You've abused the tools often through your bad behavior, negative attitude, your bully type tactics, and your vulgar language...especially when interacting with editors you dislike. For these reasons you should step down. ] ] 18:40, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *:Thanks for your comment. ] (]) 18:41, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :*Someone needs to learn what admin tools are then. If you think RM has abused them, please show diffs. If not, then you're just using this as an opportunity to make ''ad hominem'' comments. - ] (]) 18:43, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::*You are are wonderful editor and a good admin. Sure, there was a bit of warring going on, but it was for the benefit of the project and there was no disruption in mind. I shan't comment specifically to Caden's remark, but I should treat it with the contempt it deserves if I were you. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px Black;">]<sup>]</sup></span>'''| | |||
| ], where did I put that Mars bar?"]] | |||
| :::Self recall? Is that like ] but <s>with</s> without the ]? ] (]) 19:05, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Thank you Martin, helpful as ever. I really liked the original, ("you're in for a big surprise!" and Sharon Stone practising her serves) but the sequel sucked. ] (]) 19:08, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Two weeks. <small><span style="border:1px solid #0000ff;padding:1px;">] : ] </span></small> 19:15, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: ] rather than a straight sequel. {{small|(Sorry, can't resist...)}} --] <small>(] • ])</small> 19:17, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Oppose self recall''' Long term user, relinquished 'crat rights so clearly not holding on to bits for the sake of them. One of our most active WP:ITN editors, a place that needs more admins. Yep, you're abrasive at times and I think you could knock some of the immediate snark on the head. But then again so could I. No tool misuse has been demonstrated (Caden makes allegations but provides no diffs or other facts) and only a net positive to the project. <small><span style="border:1px solid #0000ff;padding:1px;">] : ] </span></small> 19:12, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *I haven't seen any reason whatsoever for The Rambling Man to turn in his badge, with the possible exception of his own fatigue (as someone who had voted for his bureaucratship, I didn't see the need for him leaving that club either, personally, but he might have). Mostly per Pedro: The Rambling Man's experience and judgment at WP:ITN are valuable, also as an admin who is able to post hot items to the main page sooner rather than later. And I also agree with the other things Pedro said; more diplomacy and less condescension (and less sensitivity) while arguing wouldn't be undesirable, but that has nothing to do with whether The Rambling Man should remain an admin or not. ---] ] 19:59, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * The ] shows that even senior scientists will modify their own reported findings to fit them within the "orthodoxy" - even when scientists have put effort into attempting to be objective. Groupthink comes about in organizations that actively try to avoid it. Personally, I see this on ITN - three or four editors will remark adding support for a nomination, then an experienced editor will rubbish the proposal with brusque language - making others who support the idea more cautious and more likely to decide not to contribute. Bear in mind that for every senior admin that uses brusque, snide, sardonic, cynical, or dismissive comments, it's possible that more than one good faith editor decides not to engage in a topic area where they feel the quality of discourse is going downhill. I don't want TRM to cease adminship - but he should stop making facetious remarks in places that don't involve vandalism or edit wars (like ITN). ] (]) 19:43, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * If someone can show me specific diffs showing abuse of tools, I will try to evaluate them fairly despite my generally favorable opinion of TRM. Otherwise, I will assume that in this, as in most accusations of "administrator abuse", it is the admin who is being abused. --] (]) 20:05, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * I have a faint awareness of some history of snippiness, so I applaud TRM for the promise to work on that. I also applaud TRM for the self-awareness that some have expressed concern which led to this request for feedback. I do not support the suggestion (made above) of the relinquishment of tools at this time. I haven't thought through whether this would qualify as "under a cloud" or not and I don't care to investigate it but I understand the possibility so I would not think it wise to resign the tools at this point. I also have too much to do to undertake a review on my own. If there are editors who have concerns they have been invited to provide evidence. I will review the evidence is presented but I won't go looking for myself. So far no evidence has been presented, the unsupported post of Caden notwithstanding. Caden, provide diffs and I'll look at them. If you don't your allegation is likely to be ignored.--]] 20:26, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :* ''Clarification:'' What I suggested above was a "sabbatical" or "leave of absence" not a "relinquishment". Sabbaticals are part of the job in that other field that involves lots of writing and researching: academia. They should not be viewed as "abnormal" or "unusual" here. How many first-hand reports have we seen from editors who say taking a break from Misplaced Pages was the best thing they've done? And I can think of at least one Admin who said the same thing about taking a break from the tools... --] <small>(] • ])</small> 20:33, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * Just resign the tools and get on with editing, which is what this project is supposed to be all about anyway. You don't need a title and a block button to be validated as a Wikipedian. ] (]) 20:37, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *:Yes, that had crossed my mind, problem is that on the odd occasion I ''do'' use the tools, it's normally to things like move ITN items to the main page, or fix errors there. I don't need it to be validated as a Wikipedian, I would prefer to keep it to assist the project. Perhaps someone could tell me how many times I've used admin tools outside the main page, DYK queue etc maintenance and how many times I've used it to block, protect or delete... ] (]) 20:40, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::*{{reply|The Rambling Man}} "I don't need it to be validated as a Wikipedian" - no but others ''critically'' do see it that way - and it makes them less likely to want to vocally disagree in places like the ITN and DYK queue. This is an issue for editor retention, because novice editors feel uncomfortable disagreeing with a senior, longstanding admin. See ] about how experienced scientists modify their findings to avoid disagreeing with a senior, published figure. Your admin powers may only be a small part of your time - but the fact that you're an admin makes non-admins cautious to come to the defence of non-admins you make abrasive comments towards, especially on DYK and ITN. Editor retention is one of the big issues with the project - and when junior editors are snapped at on ITN or DYK, they may be less likely to feel like contributing. I don't want you to lose your adminship, just appreciate that being an admin and making abrasive comments makes non-admins unwilling to challenge you, and that can drive down editor retention. I'd prefer TRM to commit to something like involving a wikiproject like ] in monthly reviews of conduct, and getting suggestions to improve ITN and DYK for new users. ] (]) 06:39, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *I dislike The Rambling Man as an editor and as a person (at least the part of his person one can know from interacting with him on wiki - possibly he is a swell guy in person but that seems beside the point). On wiki he is perpetually abrasive, condescending and arrogant, dismissive of others' arguments and unwilling to engage in serious discussion, and when one responds to him in kind he is petulant and easily offended. Pretty much classic baiting behavior. I have had quite a few disputes with him, principally at ITN where I consider him to display consistently poor judgment and worse behavior in relation to other editors with whom he disagrees. In that context, I have made many personal attacks against him, all of which I consider to have been well deserved. I have seen him interact in similar ways with others at DYK, though fortunately I have not had to interact with him there. I have however not seen him ever abusing his admin tools. I myself resigned my tools because I realized it was too hard for me to keep civil during heated engagements and when confronted with baiting behavior. TRM is able not to use swearwords and direct personal attacks. But almost all of his comments in conflicts are veiled personal attacks, or passive aggressive baiting. I don't think that is a good way for an admin to interact with others. I dont think he has violated any rule, but I also don't consider him to be a good administrator. I think a good admin is also ideally a nice person who treats others better than the mere rules require, but I realize that being a nice person is not something that many consider a central aspect of wikipedia, and I assume it is possible to be a reasonably good admin without being one. Whether to resign one's tools is everyone's own business. ] · ] 20:41, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *:Cheers Maunus, overlooking your own contentious behaviour when interacting with me, your analysis of me is close to my own. Hence the pledge to do better in this regard. ] (]) 20:44, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::You will note that in the above I am quite candid about my own short comings as an editor and as an admin.] · ] 21:00, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::As I said, this discussion should overlook your own behavioural issues. Thanks for the comment. ] (]) 21:03, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: As a piece of advice I would note that I have found resigning the tools to be a relief and while sometimes I wish I could make a deletion in preparation for a move I honestly don't really need them. I think you are probably, like me, a better content writer than administrator.] · ] 21:11, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''My thoughts''' - If you feel you're not being a good admin, resign the tools without prejudice and take a break. {{u|Dennis Brown}} did this earlier in the year and it seemed to be a good deal. Your boat race articles are still at GA standard as far as I know, and they are a good bit of work. If you don't resign under a cloud, you can get the tools back easily enough. ] ] ] 20:46, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *:Yes, as mentioned above, there ''is'' a cloud here, that I was blocked by a fellow admin just a day or two ago for an alleged BLP violation. This is cloud territory. Moreover, it's not that I feel any of my "admin" tasks are beyond me or conducted poorly, just that I have been castigated far and wide for not being a "good" admin (seemingly for behaviour I exhibit outside the making of admin decisions). As for the Boat Race stuff, yes, as far as I know, I currently have 163 good articles (including two women's race articles) and 3 featured articles. More to come that way, but that's nothing really to do with this. ] (]) 20:50, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::As far as I can see, that dark cloud is still very firmly parked over ]. But great that we can all enjoy this cathartic . ] (]) 21:45, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| '''Mixed blessing''' It might be seen as under a cloud if it he resigned the bit now, Ritchie333, since he started the recall process (I handed mine in because I just had filed for divorce, so was distracted). That said, I will opine, in a way TRM will understand: I think you are a flaming pain in the ass. You are often too gruff, you can be dismissive of others, and often can be compared to a bull in a china shop. I disagree with you regularly, and I'm sure I piss you off frequently as well. That said, I've never seen or would expect you to abuse the tools and your demeanor when acting as admin is well within expectations. I am comfortable with you keeping the tools. ] - ] 20:59, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *Regarding the Kww block: he got a lot of serious pushback for it, including multiple editors and admins calling for an arb case. I think the institutional memory of it will follow him around for a long time even if there's no formal reprisal for the specific incident. And the underlying issue on your side was basically lame edit warring, a venial sin in the scheme of things if it doesn't happen too often. If you really want to wear the hairshirt over it, report yourself for 3RR and ask for an uninvolved admin to block you for 24h, after which you're good to go.<p>I've been more seriously annoyed by the friction you've gotten into at Refdesk/ITN/DYK and I urge you to tone it down if that's still going on (I don't keep tabs). At other times I've seen good analysis and judgment from you, enough that (maybe since I haven't looked at the problem areas too closely) I'd generally prefer that you stay on, maybe after taking a temporary break from adminning as others have said. I generally want to preserve what's possible of the remaining "Old Republic" DNA in the admin corps as a foil against the present-day bureaucracy even if it means occasional ludicrous incidents like the Antonio Martin thing. So I'd encourage you to self-reflect for a while on the areas where you've gotten in friction, and work out how to either avoid those areas or do better in them, while still maintaining reasonable standards in other areas. If you can do that, I'm satisfied. ] (]) 21:45, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::FWIW, I don't think a turning in of the tools is warranted. Some grumpiness and exasperation is not a prerequisite for this.] (] '''·''' ]) 21:54, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * I would urge you to continue to be an admin but to work harder to set a better example. Specifically be more civil, refrain from personal attacks, and try to communicate in a manner the de-escalates conflicts rather than drive off those seeking to communicate. Also, please don't edit war. We need admins and I would far rather you clean up your act than give up the bit. ] 22:41, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *I in contrast urge you to resign as an admin. I will repost from the closed section above regarding you: "Pretty comfortable throwing his weight around at ], where I have been watching him for years, as he drifts into borderline abuse repeatedly. for posting what is a fine example of ]: here is an admin coming to my page looking for a fight. In my long term observation, TRM is a bully who should desysopped." I repeat: came to my page looking for a fight, because I had previously questioned your posting an ITN item you had !voted on per ]. No admin should use the snarky, hostile and combative rhetoric your position as admin allows you to get away with, which is a deeply ingrained habit. You abuse your power, and should give up the extra buttons. ]]] 00:15, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :*I '''concur'''. ] (]) 00:20, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' If you want to take a break from adminship but don't want to give up the bit under a potential cloud, just don't use any admin tools for awhile. Edit as if you don't have them. Once this incident blows over, you can decide to resign if you want and there won't be any question about whether you can re-admin just by asking a bureaucrat. ] (]) 00:13, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *{{nao}} I personally think you should keep your Admin rights and spend more time editing and mopping ] related articled, especially ] stuff. You are an asset to the project overall; yes you can loose your cool but I think 99% of the time it's justified. I have never seen you abuse your Admin tools, you just get very grumpy ;) ] (]) 00:56, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose recall'''. Lawd knows TRM and I do not often get along personally, and we often butt heads on many issues, but I have never once seen him misuse his admin tools. The measure of an admin should only be in how they use their tools. TRM has never misused them to my notion, and there's room in the big world of Misplaced Pages for a wide range of personalities and experiences on Misplaced Pages. We will never be friends, but I will defend his admin status to the ends of the earth. He's always been a model admin in terms of his measured, careful use of his tools. As a double endorsement of his worthiness, he recognizes his own shortcomings above, and a self-reflective, self-aware person who is willing to grow is ''exactly'' the kind of person we want as an admin. Again, I do not approve of much of his interpersonal approach in dealing with people he disagrees with. But he's never let that bleed into his admin work, and it would be a loss to the community for him to lose his tools. --]] 02:45, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''also oppose recall''' Certainly I have been warned several times by TRM and also helped in situations by him. Over the course of many years feathers will get ruffled from time to time. But I can't think of any instances where he has abused his administrative authority. Maybe his fuse is a bit shorter from when he started but he acknowledged as much. It would be quite a shame not to have his experience in solving issues. If he really wants to step back, take a 30-60 day vacation from administrative chores. Stay an admin, don't resign the tools, but just do editing and nothing else. If you're feeling unappreciated, maybe that month would recharge the batteries. ] (]) 08:46, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *Just a quick '''comment''' to follow up on what was said above — if you take a one-year sabbatical and request the tools back later, it won't be a problem. Your admin rights will have been removed for inactivity, which isn't considered under a cloud, and by definition it's several months separated from any conflicts you're in right now. ] (]) 13:51, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *:I could, but since my sysop tools include being able to edit the main page, I'd prefer that not to be the case. Right now I'm pretty much dedicated to putting quality items at ITN and fixing ERRORS. I do block the odd vandal and protect the odd page, but that's in the minority. ] (]) 21:45, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *A desysop would be a bad idea; you're not indispensable, but you're much less dispensable than others, particularly at ITN, but also elsewhere. The reserved approach with the admin tools is admirable, as is the ability to crank out an amazing number of solid, quality articles while being an admin. I have found your willingness to jump immediately into full snark mode depressing sometimes; God knows I don't expect perfection, but I wish it happened less often than it does. I'd grudgingly support a too-grumpy TRM as an admin; I'd wholeheartedly endorse a less-grumpy TRM as one. --] (]) 15:33, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' There's now an arbitration request open so I'd say file a statement and answer the case if needed. If the case is declined or if it closes without desysopping, I think that means there is not a cloud and it is ok to resign temporarily if that's what you want to do. ] (]) 21:32, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *:Please see my opening statement, I believe that I do not misuse the tools and would prefer to keep them. ] (]) 21:45, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *{{ec}} I'm largely in agreement with most of the above. I don't think you should resign as an admin. You haven't misused the tools and we are short of admins in most areas, including the ones I generally see you in. That said, it definitely wouldn't hurt if you made a conscious effort to try and be less abrasive in your dealings with other editors. ] (]) 21:34, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *:I agree, I've noted that in my opening statement. ] (]) | |||
| *Abrasive and fighty to some and in certain areas, yes; trustworthy in terms of the tools, also yes. If you do genuinely make an effort to 'moderate "snippiness"', then I don't believe you should be (self-)recalled. In the future, if an issue do raise your temperature, try walking away for a bit. Reduce your stress level, and also better for the pedia. On a side note regarding any passing cloud, I would say any resignation now ''would'' be under a cloud, but not because of the recent block, but because of the open ArbCom case request where you are named as a party. -- ] (]) 22:24, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *], I voted for you for adminship and for bureaucratship . Do I regret those votes? No. Do I want you desysopped? No. Do I think that you need to make a few changes? Yes - because I think you're a good person, good editor and good admin, and I think the project would be worse off without you. If you feel as though you're been dragged into disputes of which you want no part, there is no shame in backing away from them. Some people above have noted that you can sometimes be hostile (I prefer "grumpy" as it's a less hostile word than the word "hostile"!) when dealing with people, especially with those who are causing you trouble; my answer to that is if you feel other editors are stressing you out, honestly, there is no shame - ''no shame at all'' - in someone with as much experience as yourself asking someone else for assistance. If nothing else, I certainly do recommend taking a break: it's amazing how taking a week or two (or a month) off refreshes one's enthusiasm for editing. Again, I continue to hold my long-standing positive impression of you and it is my preference that you remain as an admin; just take on board the advice that people have given you here and I think you'll be fine. Best. ] 22:27, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Resign''' From what I've seen, The Rambling Man routinely violates our behavioural guidelines such as ], ], ] and ] but he shows restraint in his use of tools like blocking and deletion and so his bark is worse than his bite. I can cope as I'm quite thick-skinned but it seems likely that other editors would be provoked or driven off by this nastiness. As admins are supposed to show ], he should please give the role a rest and try to find some more congenial corner of the project to work in. If the break is somewhat voluntary, he might reasonably return to admin duties at some future time. ] (]) 22:54, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Resign'''. The Rambling Man drove me from contributing from ], and partly drove me into my semi-retirement (I lost confidence in the admin system, I'd name a few other high up people I've lost confidence in too, but it's not the time for that) There are so many sections on AN/I's archives that contain the word TRM, I can't believe he still has tools, and that scares me. One of those AN/I sections is , where I disastrously tried to get action taken against him. I don't understand why people here are blind to what I see. TRM has given far enough trouble. I can't really say when he's misused his admin tools, but only numerous abuse cases of his editing tools, and surely someone who abuses editing tools shouldn't be trusted with sysop tools. The community's handling of TRM's behavior is a reason that I think that Misplaced Pages doesn't have a bright future (and therefore discouraging me from contributing). This wiki-depresses me (seriously). --] <sup>]</sup> 02:05, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' Full disclosure; TRM and I are parties to the IBAN which TRM mentions in his opening statement as having been temporarily blocked for violating. (Baseball Bugs and I sought that IBAN when a dispute between TRM and myself at ITN ended up with TRM following me to other pages, especially the Reference Desks, where somehow BBB and I became conflated in his aggressive behaviour.) I'll speak here, given he has brought up the issue and invited comment. My opinion largely parallels the comments of Baseball Bugs and Jayron above. TRM has had some serious issues dealing civilly with other users as an ''editor'' himself. But I have never seen him once abuse his ''admin'' privileges. | |||
| :It is largely for this reason that I argued TRM should not ''remain'' blocked when he violated the terms of our IBAN last autumn. There has been a little bit of gamesmanship by him since (and there was a lot when the IBAN was first instituted the prior winter, diffs upon request), but I felt at the time that the permanent mark should be and was enough. Given I don't see diffs regarding this latest issue, I cannot comment on it. But the bottom line is that the "problem" with TRM is ''not'' as an admin but as a user. | |||
| :Had anyone asked me a year ago, my opinion would have been adamant that TRM should be desysopped. His behaviour is hostile enough in general that it is unbecoming an admin, and I cannot see that he would ever become an admin at this point were he not already grandfathered in. But that's a problem with adminship in general, not something that TRM has caused. My belief is that the admin system needs fixing, with term limits and a lottery giving some privileges to experienced users in good standing. Anything to break up the permanent old-boy's-club we have now, which I think drives away a lot of older and professional contributors with no desire to become wikilawyering experts. | |||
| :But frankly, the loss of TRM's admin work at ITN would be a huge blow. I would suggest that something like a plea-bargained deal be arranged. Perhaps TRM can voluntarily accept a limit of ''no personal comments'' and ''no more than two comments per thread'' at ITN (and on other talk pages, if warranted)? Something significant along those lines would allow TRM to continue his good work, but would put a damper on the impulse to argue every point until blood is drawn. | |||
| :I see the point of those who call for TRM's resignation. I also see that while he's a frigging pain in the arse, he doesn't abuse his position other than by besmirching it with his unbecoming behaviour. I think something absolutely should be done, something or record here or at arbitration, and by decree if not voluntarily. But I think this thread is a good palm branch, TRM is a valuable contributor ''when he contributes'', and we should keep the good of the project in mind above our own personal grievances. | |||
| :] (]) 02:57, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :* Thank you Medeis, this is one of the most useful and pragmatic contributions: "Perhaps TRM can voluntarily accept a limit of ''no personal comments'' and ''no more than two comments per thread'' at ITN (and on other talk pages, if warranted)? Something significant along those lines would allow TRM to continue his good work, but would put a damper on the impulse to argue every point until blood is drawn." That seems entirely reasonable, and if it's formally documented exactly what behaviour is disallowed then that would be easier to manage than endless ANI complaints.] (]) 18:02, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Do not resign.''' I asked for anyone here showing me specific diffs showing abuse of tools. None were provided. Resignation or desysoping is the answer when you cannot be trusted with the tools. The answer when multiple editors tell you that you have been acting like a jerk is to ''stop acting like a jerk''. It really is that simple. --] (]) 03:02, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :* Guy, it's not just about the tools – ] (''aside:'' this needs a shortcut – I'd suggest ] or ] or something...) is an actual thing: {{tq|"However, sustained or serious disruption of Misplaced Pages is incompatible with the status of administrator, and consistently or egregiously poor judgment may result in the removal of administrator status. Administrators should strive to model appropriate standards of courtesy and civility to other editors and to one another."}} This, and , confirm that Admins can lose the bit for other than just straight "abuse of tools". --] <small>(] • ])</small> 03:37, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::*] is now a shortcut. ] (]) 03:47, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::* {{Reply to|Beyond My Ken|label1=BMK}} Danke! --] <small>(] • ])</small> 04:02, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::* Bitte. ] (]) 04:32, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::*{{ping|IJBall}} Thank you! --] <sup>]</sup> 03:56, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *My thanks to IJBall and to BMK for the pertinent shortcut. IJBall has said in different words, and citing the actual policy repeatedly violated by TRM, that I have tried to emphasize in my own statement here, and at the ArbCom case request. We also have a user stating they were driven away from ITN by the abusive comments TRM indulges in. Enough. ''TRM, you need to resign the tools at once.'' It's the decent thing to do. ]]] 05:04, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * Seriously? '''"Sustained or serious disruption of Misplaced Pages"?''' Evidence, please. Show me the diffs. All I have seen so far is some rudeness that, while undesirable, wouldn't get an ordinary editor blocked. ''Especially'' without being warned and given a chance to change his behavior. The words "triggerhappy" and "bloodthirsty" come to mind... --] (]) 05:37, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :* Well, the thing is, we aren't talking about "my" issues with TRM, so I can't provide much in the way of diffs ( is literally my only "semi-bad" interaction with TRM, and that didn't break my skin, though neither did I consider it "constructive"...). But neither am I going to ignore the comments of other editors here (especially in regards to the ITN section), nor can I ignore the numerous cases I've seen come through ANI about TRM. Again, it doesn't satisfy me that "an Admin hasn't abused the tools", as I expect more from an Admin than that. And creating enough of a "hostile environment" that it's a pervasive issue with a significant segment of the community is enough for me to see an Admin desysopped. I'm not saying that TRM is at the level – but if ArbCom is taking this case, I'd sure like them to look in to that, as well as Kww's block. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 06:02, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::*I have no problem with either ANI or arbcom opening a case, examining the evidence, and desysoping TRM if that's where the evidence leads. In ''this'' thread I am basically asking for the same thing. My message to everyone here is this: either post diffs that you believe are evidence of either misuse of tools or sustained/serious disruption of Misplaced Pages, or don't ask TRM to resign as administrator. --] (]) 18:24, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose recall''' This got started because of Kww's misuse of the tools. The fact that TRM refused to do the same shows who can be trusted. ]|] 05:11, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose recall''' I've only skimmed the earlier ANI and comments here. It seems to me TRM didn't do anything particularly alarming or concerning besides argue with someone who appears to have been in the wrong. I also would like to see diffs - everyone (not that there are many) who has claimed TRM is disruptive, you should back up your claims with diffs! Show us what he's done! Otherwise I just have to assume it's something personal. ]<sup>]</sup> 😜 06:53, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :* There are numerous examples prior to this latest spat with Kww. For instance, see ]. ] (]) 10:20, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose recall'''. I oppose recalling TRM because I have never seem him abuse his admin powers, nor do I see evidence of him doing so here. Like all of us, he is not a perfect human being or Wikipedian and he admits the things he needs to work on and from what I know I believe he is doing so. I don't expect any editor or admin to act perfectly all the time. In the past we have had strong disagreements (which I likely am part responsible for) but they had nothing to do with his admin powers. I don't think they need to be removed. ] (]) 12:54, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{reply|331dot}} you "Your sarcasm toward other, especially new users, hardly helps improve Misplaced Pages." (this was linked in a previous ANI issue raising conduct complaints) - given that this is what people have an issue with, can you comment on Medeis's suggestion "Perhaps TRM can voluntarily accept a limit of ''no personal comments'' and ''no more than two comments per thread'' at ITN (and on other talk pages, if warranted)? Something significant along those lines would allow TRM to continue his good work, but would put a damper on the impulse to argue every point until blood is drawn." ] (]) 18:17, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{reply|Aronzak}} From what I have seen since I made that comment, I think he has been trying to get better. Maybe he hasn't always been successful but what matters is that he seems to recognize that he needs to continue to improve. If he thinks such a voluntary restriction would help him improve, he should do it, but that is up to him. If done, I think a time limit on it would be reasonable, such as six months or a year. ] (]) 18:26, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''All''', how would this voluntary restriction work? I am being accused of being a piss-poor communicator and a grumpy old sod (which I've accepted in my opening statement), yet my admin actions are not being scrutinised in any way. I don't see how '''not''' fixing main page errors, '''not''' posting ready items to ITN, '''not''' tweaking TFA and TFL and TFP blurbs would help here? According to the "stats" I have made 60 admin actions over the past year which are logged as such, i.e. in deletes, protects and blocks. Not one of those has been brought into question. I could work ''sans bit'' for months, but it would just mean that ERRORS, TFL, ITN, DYK, TFA and TFP would have unaddressed issues for longer than necessary. Is that it? ] (]) 18:31, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Can you just fix stuff without being so ]? Thanks. ] (]) 18:38, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::Martin, I've said it before, and I'll say it again, your subtle comments are way beyond most of the readers here. They confuse a lot of people around here. Please restrict them to my talk page or other, more appropriate venues. And in the meantime, no, I'm in any way. Although I did spend some time with ], about twenty years ago... I will try to fix things. ] (]) 20:07, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::<small>Ah, just readers . That's a relief. ] (]) 20:31, 28 June 2015 (UTC) </small> | |||
| :::::Who has a sideboard these days?! ] (]) 20:46, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Don't threaten me with , mate! ] (]) 20:54, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::*{{u|The Rambling Man}}, one way is to limit where you participate, to limit the reasons to get grumpy. IE: Work at ITN but not at DYK. I quit doing any DYK work and removed all DYK pips from my user page, in part from your work there. My opinion is that you are overly rigid in your interpretation of the standards (as are a couple others), and it puts off off new editors. To me, that is an editor retention concern, and if given the chance, would vote to simply remove DYK as a liability. l quit and unwatched all pages because I have better things to fight over. I actively discourage new editors from participating at DYK. ] - ] 11:06, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::*Thanks {{U|Dennis Brown}}. I restrict my edits at DYK now to simply copyediting every item that gets thrust into the preps and queues. Incidentally, new editors are more likely to be dissuaded by the arcane use of templates, QPQ process, transcluding, vetting, prepping and queueing than a more stringent adherence to writing in grammatically correct and encyclopedically toned English. But that is just my opinion. ] (]) 14:18, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :*I'm not sure about which "voluntary restriction" you're talking about, but if you get your civility issues resolved, then this whole series of AN/I threads can have a good ending. I've said it before and I'll say it again, that would be a better ending than a desysoping. Regards, --] <sup>]</sup> 18:49, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::*Well, a number of people commenting have suggested I temporarily resign or refrain from using my admin rights, as a voluntary restriction imposed upon myself. My point above was that I generally "use" my admin rights to update the main page, ITN, DYK, ERRORS, etc etc, and don't usually use them to do anything else. I don't believe anyone has suggested my updates to the main page, or fixes from ERRORS has been mishandled. And yes, I've already committed to making a concerted effort to improve the indicated communication issues, that formed part of my opening statement in this very thread. ] (]) 20:10, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::*A number of people commenting have suggested that you temporarily resign or refrain from using your admin rights '''while refusing to provide a single diff that shows a good reason why you should do that'''. Yes, you have been uncivil. Not enough to support even a 1-day block, but it is there. The solution to that is to talk it over with your colleagues (which you have done) and try to tone it down (which you have said you will do). Nothing else is required. ''We need you and we need your tools.'' Nobody else would have tried to address the PC2 issue on the PCI page. There is a case where your having the tools was invaluable (all I could have done is complained and gotten stonewalled). The only thing I would have changed is having you discuss controversial actions like that before doing them, (even if they ''shouldn't be'' controversial) but as far as what you did you did the right thing. And have you noticed the current protection level on that particular page? You have not misused the tools you have not engaged in sustained/serious disruption of Misplaced Pages. You should not resign. --] (]) 21:53, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *I personally haven't seen anything worthy of resigning the toolset permanently. <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~] <small>(])</small></span> 20:21, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose recall'''. You're a fantastic Wikipedian, who has contributed so much. Allow me to elaborate: | |||
| *:I think you've been a bit worn down by things in the last while, particularly, if I may suggest, by a perception that some Wikipedians tolerate (maintain, even fight for) low standards in various nooks and crannies of the pedia. I don't know whether imposing some kind of artificial restraints on yourself will help, I suspect not, but I do know that throwing aside the tools will not help you or Misplaced Pages. | |||
| *:Instead, I'll refer you back to ], which you were the second person to sign up to. While any of us can fall short of the optimal standards of behaviour, we are after all, human, it's good to aspire to them. | |||
| *:This has been a courageous (if bonkers) thing to do, but I commend you on your self-analysis and look forward to seeing the shiny old TRM re-emerging - to be honest, the c.2007 version of TRM was pretty much the model for the Old Fashioned Wikipedian Values. --] (]) 09:12, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *There probably has been grumpiness and there have certainly been some comments that have been perceived as incivil, yet no-one is seriously suggesting misuse of the tools. Taking a break from tool use isn't the answer here, but it might be an idea to refocus for while on an area where you are less likely to get into disagreements. If we can get someone to refresh the report, I would suggest you spend some time doing a trawl of ]. No need to say anything to the editors on that list who don't yet merit the Autopatrol flag, but there are lots of overlooked uncontentious editors out there and it is difficult to be grumpy when you find them, set them as Autopatroller and say hi on their talkpage. You might even find a few who would be interested in DYK etc if they but knew of them. '']]<span style="color:#CC5500">Chequers''</span> 10:50, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose recall'''. While I haven't interacted with TRM much, it looks like he hasn't abused his admin tools at all, and that the only problems with him are as an editor. Also, TRM's work at WP:ITN is appreciated. ] (]) 12:17, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ==Edit Warring ]== | |||
| ] has ignored wikipedias threevert rule and is edit warring among pages of players drafted in the 2015 NVA Draft. Among the pages are ] and ]. Although it has been pointed out these players are not signed he continues to add them to their current teams. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 16:50, 26 June 2015 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| : Is there any reason not to file a report on this at ] then? --] <small>(] • ])</small> 17:04, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::], can you remember being a new user? I can. I actually still remember the time, ten years ago, that I first reported a problem to a noticeboard (there was a bewildering variety of them even then, though not so many as now), with much effort and doubt, and somebody spoke to me just the way you did there, and how disconcerted I was. The way to reply to good faith reports is to thank the user for their assistance. Then, if you must, you can point them to a different noticeboard for next time. Thank you for reporting the problem, ], please consider using ] next time you need to report edit warring. I was going to take a look at your complaint, but realized that my understanding of... what sport is it? Oh, basketball. OK, my understanding of professional basketball is unfortunately so tiny that I hesitate to review your complaint. I hope another, more clued-in, admin will do so soon. ] | ] 17:12, 27 June 2015 (UTC). | |||
| ::: <del>FTR, that wasn't intended to be "snarky", and I apologize if it came off that way. It was more an attempt to point Toeknee44 to the correct noticeboard.</del> I apologize Toeknee44 for being curt. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 17:14, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::: Also, I just checked and it doesn't look like Natg 19 has crossed 3RR – there was an addition, and 1 revert at ], and just the one addition at ]. (In fact, I see some later from Natg 19 on this issue...) So it looks like Natg 19 got the "message" in time before crossing any "redlines". I suggest that this one can probably be closed. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 17:23, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| == Editor: "Helpsome" == | |||
| I am new to Misplaced Pages and was treated very rudely by "Helpsome" last month. S/he called me a liar and was generally abusive. | |||
| I suggest the following: 1) S/he be reprimanded and given some general guidelines on civility. 2) S/he be given retraining on actually reading what s/he was deleting before s/he deletes it. (The entry on one of the articles I added material to is now messed up due to his/her editing without looking -- it has entries in the Reference section with nothing being referred to). 3) I request to be allowed to enter material as long as I do not "self-promote" without being abused. | |||
| Thank you. | |||
| W. Paul Marshall | |||
| ("wpaul1972") | |||
| :I've moved the required user notification to ] from the title of this section. ] (]) 18:27, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Here {{user|Wpaul1972}} is the link to make it easier to read this editors relevant pages. It looks like the article in question is {{pagelinks|Nagarjuna}} and the ensuing discussion at ] ]|] 19:11, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::: Looks like this may be helpful: {{Userlinks|Shankara1000}} as effectively Helpsome seems to be suggesting that Wpaul1972 is a sock of Shankara1000. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 19:24, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Helpsome did not edit since 19 June 2015, he may not be able to comment on this complaint. ] (]) 20:10, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::These are the edits that appear to be in question: . However, I must note to Wpaul1972 that ''did not'' remove the improvements you made , merely, he removed the information for Jones Richard. That seems odd. I would like {{ping|Helpsome}} to explain this focus, however noting the above. <span style="color: blue; text-shadow:7px 7px 7px blue">-- ] <sup><span style="font-size:80%">]</span></sup></span> 21:21, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Again, I am not Richard Jones or any of the other scholars I try to add. I do not know him. I did once speak to Lex Hixon after one of his talks, but he is dead. I don't understand the reference to Shankara 1000 -- if Helpsome is suggesting I also use that name I never have. Paul (wpaul 1972) <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 20:25, 27 June 2015 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| ] (]) 18:32, 28 June 2015 (UTC)wpaul1972 | |||
| :{{ping|Wpaul1972}} Please sign your comments using 4 tildes (i.e. <big><nowiki>~~~~</nowiki></big>). The system with automatically sign and date your comment. Thanks. ] (]) 21:13, 27 June 2015 (UTC). | |||
| ::I am not sure what happens next. ] (]) 20:41, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| == Repeated copyvio creation == | |||
| {{userlinks|Ali_qahremani}} | |||
| In the past few hours, Ali qahremani has done nothing but create articles which plagiarize different sources, under titles that are only related to the article topic, in may cases topics that should be covered by existing articles. User does not respond to any messages, even when a non-template one was sent. ]. ] (]) 19:02, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :I blocked and asked for feedback.--]] 19:59, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :In some cases, this is slightly more complicated than it appears at first blush. In some of these articles there is an indicator of the copyright problem but the duplication detector report shows no overlap. While not having confirmed this my guess is that the copied material comes from the text of the article as opposed to the abstract. In one case ] I'm puzzled, as the attempted an article is clearly a copy of the abstract, yet the shows no overlap. I haven't fully investigated why but this puzzles me. However because the editor manages to include the copyright notice in the article, and in at least there is substantial overlap, it makes sense to stop this editor and make sure they engage in discussion.--]] 20:08, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Eyeballing it confirms the copyvio (or at least enough of a copyvio), I'd have to guess that something's gone wrong with the copyvio detection software(s). ] (]) 20:57, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :: shows a 99.4 % overlap. It's actually the better tool, and I use it almost exclusively. -- ] (]) 21:49, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| == Original research == | |||
| Per this previous ], ] has been notified that changing and creating new navboxes with the suffixes "oidics" or "ergics" is in many cases original research and confuses readers because these terms do not exist in the scientific literature. Despite these cautions communicated both through talk pages () and private e-mail (withheld for obvious reasons), Medgirl131 continues to create new navboxes such as {{tl|Prostanoidergics}} that until this navbox was created, the term was completely unknown. Compounding the problem is that Medgirl131 refuses to gain consensus on the appropriate talk pages such as ] before these edits. It is Medgirl131 right not to communicate on talk pages. However if Medgirl131 wishes to add controversial navboxes to a large number of articles, IMHO Medgirl131 should be required to obtain consensus at the appropriate project talk page before making these edits. I am sympathetic to Medgirl131 privacy concerns and I am willing act as a mediator via private e-mail to to determine if there is community consensus for these proposed edits. ] (]) 21:07, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :I am sympathetic also. We have a lot of people making up new terms for Misplaced Pages and we try to curb this. This user contributes good content to Misplaced Pages. I expect that this person knows the rules, knows how to engage in discussion, knows why this notice is being posted here, and can anticipate the likely outcome of coining new terms without providing justification. I would comment on any proposal justifying these names. ]] 22:34, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| == Deception, impersonation, sock puppetry, vandalism, topic ban, block, and scrutiny evasion == | |||
| I apologize for the long post, but I feel it is necessary for the reader to get a full sense of the entire picture. A TL;DR summary is at the end for convenience. | |||
| {{user|AnulBanul}} is an account that demonstrably belongs to user {{user|Wüstenfuchs}} a fact that runs counter to his blatant lie that he has "no connection to the said user whatsoever". The user, in spite of his "Armenian who lived in Serbia" persona , has never once edited the Armenian Misplaced Pages (hy.wikipedia.org) or Serbian Misplaced Pages (sr.wikipedia.org). Note that Wüstenfuchs joined WikiProject Armenia and that later AnulBanul joined WikiProject Armenia as editing from Georgia then Russia . He then began building his persona changing his intitial name from Anulmanul to Anna Sahakyan , then Anushka , then Yerevani Axjik , and then to his current name AnulBanul. He then uploaded a selfie image to presumably impersonate a person named Anna Sahakyan from ] that he took off a Facebook profile or ] (Russian social networking website). He proceeded to use that image on his userpage and refer to himself as "Anna" and created a backstory for the said individual. Numerous FB and VK profiles exist under that name, but I won't link any for their privacy. | |||
| Note that AnulBanul instead edits the Croatian Misplaced Pages which when he does concerns right-wing and far-right Croatian politicians and parties. which is quite odd when the user labels himself a liberal from the University of Belgrade. Indeed it's hard to believe it's anyone other than him when he does such obscure and specific edits such as (among the litany of other identical ones shown below). Note that the Wüstenfuchs account became inactive on 20 September 2014, two days later the AnulBanul account became active on 22 September 2014. The last edit of Wüstenfuchs (Bilal Bosnić, ISIL recruiter) and first edit of AnulBanul (Military intervention against ISIL) are both related to Islamic extremism. Further note that Wüstenfuchs' ] IP was blocked for block evading in order to edit war. That same IP ({{user|93.180.104.124}}) edited three articles, all of which were created by Wüstenfuchs and all of which were later edited by AnulBanul/Wüstenfuchs with the same POV: ] (IP: , AnulBanul: ), ] (IP: , Wüstenfuchs ), and ] (IP: , Wüstenfuchs: ) | |||
| On 26 May AnulBanul was topic banned from anything related to Bosnia and Herzegovina for 3 months Immediately the day after he proceeded to vandalize a Bosnia and Herzegovina related userbox in order to troll. A week later he violated his topic ban via IPs {{user|185.38.146.201}} and {{user|93.180.126.249}} both Mostar IPs. Both have the same exact lines and POV on obscure articles with one of them being pushed against Dragodol, his edit warring buddy that was also topic banned, in the ] article and in the ] article the same exact line of unsourced nonsense that he was a "show general". Note that the Mostar IP's contributions on the Croatian Misplaced Pages. He picks up where Wustenfuchs and AnulBanul left off on the Croatian Party of Rights of Bosnia and Herzegovina article and on the Croatian Democratic Union 1990 article where his Herr Ziffer (blocked) and Wustenfuchs accounts formerly edited and on the Croatian Party of Rights (Bosnia and Herzegovina) article where Wustenfuchs formerly edited. Another IP (blocked) that edited all those same articles in the same manner also created the Nijaz Duraković article on the Croatian Misplaced Pages. He later admitted that those were indeed his IPs however those were not the only topic ban evading IPs. Other discovered evading IPs that AnulBanul did not disclose include {{user|85.94.128.192}}, {{user|46.35.153.151}}, and {{user|46.35.131.167}} and there are more than likely many others out there. The story does not stop with using IPs to just topic ban evade as he has also used them to vandalize, commit BLP violations, edit war and circumvent 3RR, etc and the AnulBanul account is not the only sockpuppet he has and has used the {{user|K. Solin}} and {{user|RossaLuxx}} accounts to split his edits, evade scrutiny, and have sleeper accounts. There may be many more such accounts out there. | |||
| Evidence that ties the accounts together: | |||
| {{collapse top|title=AnulBanul}} | |||
| * First ever upload on commons by AnulBanul was uploading a map of the Croatian 2014 presidential election , this same map was added to the ] article by a Mostar IP , the same Mostar IP created the ] (1997 Terrorist Attack in Mostar) article on the Croatian Misplaced Pages which AnulBanul later created on the English Misplaced Pages as ] | |||
| * Wüstenfuchs joined WikiProject Armenia , later AnulBanul joined the WP as editing from Georgia then Russia | |||
| * ], AnulBanul uploaded an image of the Bosnian Croat politician and credited it to Herr Ziffer Herr Ziffer was Wustenfuchs' sockpuppet handle at commons | |||
| * ], removal of WikiProject Former countries by Wüstenfuchs , later same removal of WikiProject Former countries by AnulBanul | |||
| * ], same "Croatian politician" POV | |||
| * ], article created by Wustenfuchs , expanded by AnulBanul | |||
| * ], article created by Wustenfuchs , portrait image uploaded by AnulBanul | |||
| * ], article created by Wustenfuchs , expanded by AnulBanul | |||
| * ], article created by Wustenfuchs , end of term added by AnulBanul | |||
| * ], article created by Wustenfuchs , updated by AnulBanul , addition of Wikiproject Bosnia and Herzegovina by 5.133.xxx.xxx | |||
| * ], article created by Wustenfuchs , updated by AnulBanul | |||
| * ], article created by Wustenfuchs , updated by AnulBanul | |||
| * ], identical denial that the man is Bosniak | |||
| * ], identical denial that the man is Bosniak | |||
| * ], infobox update by Wustenfuchs , infobox update by AnulBanul | |||
| * ], article created by Wustenfuchs , later moved and updated by AnulBanul | |||
| * ], article created by Wustenfuchs , later moved and updated by AnulBanul | |||
| * ], article created by Wustenfuchs , updated by AnulBanul , updated by 5.133.xxx.xxx | |||
| * ], moved by Wustenfuchs , later moved by AnulBanul | |||
| * ], Bosnian language removed and Serbo-Croatian added by Wustenfuchs , same edit later done by AnulBanul | |||
| * ], article created by Wustenfuchs on the Croatian Misplaced Pages , Croat ethnicity added by AnulBanul on English Misplaced Pages | |||
| * ], concerning the deaths of Bosnian Croats, moved by AnulBanul to Križančevo Selo massacre | |||
| * ], same removal of redirect and replacement with DAB | |||
| * ], same return of unconstitutional symbols | |||
| * ], same concern of Croatness in early life section | |||
| :Please check out the article and discussion. The lab leak theory is not pseudoscience, but rather a scientific hypothesis which important scientists have suggested is worthy of serious investigation (]). Although the evidence strongly favors a zoonotic origin, the investigation is inconclusive. In any case, I would favor a Misplaced Pages where civil discussion leads to a balanced representation of what is published in reliable sources. If your position is supported by the sources, there is no need to resort to name calling. ] (]) 20:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::It's pseudoscience and a pseudoscientific hypotheses burdened with quite a few racist and conspiracist adherents who want to propose China intentionally spread a plague just to weaken the United States. Preventing the promulgation of ''this specific'' pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic. ] (]) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::What you are describing is a different idea: ]. The lab leak hypothesis would be that the pandemic started due to researchers being accidentally infected with the virus. {{tq|the World Health Organization is recommending in its strongest terms yet that a deeper probe is required into whether a lab accident may be to blame. ]}} {{tq|The fact that the virus is not human-made does not necessarily exclude the possibility that the virus escaped the lab by accident (Field 2020; Guterl et al. 2020). This remains an open question; without independent and transparent investigations, it may never be either proven or disproven. The leakage of dangerous pathogens had already occurred more than once in other labs.}}(]) ] (]) 21:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::That's not what the article is about. It is about a "conspiracy theory". But this is entirely irrelevant to this noticeboard. This noticeboard is about behavior, not content. It can be extraordinarily frustrating to those who have been building this encyclopedia for ages (20 years in the case of Hob Gadling) to deal with large numbers of brandy new editors trying to push new conspiracy theories, often politically motivated. If you wish respect, try supplying some yourself. Believe me, it will aide you in your work here. I stand by my proposal of trouting you both and an unlogged warning to you that is for your own good if you wish to continue contributing. ] (]) 01:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Beyond what @] said, ''for all parties'', it doesn't matter who is "right" (when it comes to the article or talk pages), that is not sufficient to be uncivil ]. ] ] 01:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Indeed. ] (]) 01:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::If Hob Gadling wants to "deal with" new editors who threaten Misplaced Pages, it should ''not'' be through aggression and insulting them openly, but through quality sources and discussion. Editors who sympathize with "fringe" ideas might be more cooperative if they didn't have to defend themselves against offensive comments in response to their suggestions. ] (]) 07:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::If this "old grievance" about the FTN exemption to CIVIL really has been thoroughly hashed out, could someone link the discussion from ] or something? Being up front about it would save time here at ANI, plus it's always heartbreaking to watch as earnest new editors learn about this the hard way. - ] (]) 01:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Palpable, were you canvassed to this conversation? You seem to be a very inactive editor. I've made more IP edits in a month than you have edits in two decades. I'm curious how such a new editor found this. ] (]) 01:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I am in the diffs. | |||
| :::::I would still like a pointer to the discussion of why FTN regulars get an exemption from CIVIL, I honestly think that should be better understood. - ] (]) 02:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::They don't have an exemption, and I challenge you to provide a diff proving they do. ] (]) 03:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I think he was referring to the comment by Simonm223 above: {{tq|Preventing the promulgation of this specific pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic.}}] ] (]) 07:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{collapse top|title=Extended discussion}} | |||
| :::::How ironic that you would call out canvass, when you haven't contributed to this discussion previously, nor have you contributed to any prior notice board. See ], also please see ] if you logged out just to make {{tq|problematic edits}} here.... ] ] 05:13, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I've contributed to this notice board hundreds of times, what are you talking about? IPs are only assigned for a few hours to weeks at a time usually. ] (]) 05:23, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::@]: Okay let me say it another way... | |||
| :::::::* never in this history of this subject has an IP editor contributed. | |||
| :::::::* since January 1, ALL of the IP's who have contributed to ANI aside from your are blocked or had their contribution reverted. | |||
| :::::::* in the last 50,000 edits to this notice board, not a single anon has commented more than 34 times and that user was in Romania, whereas your IP shows US/Mobile, and they are currently blocked. Followed up an IPv6 with 30 edits, last participated in ANI back in May. Followed by a handful from the UK and other countries. The first one who is US based that was mobile has less than 12 edits, not hundreds. | |||
| :::::::* when you choose to edit anonymously (which is your privilege) you accept the reality that people will question your constructiveness because of a lack of established history. | |||
| :::::::But beyond all of that, aren't you simply deflecting from the question brought up? Perhaps @] has been lurking anonymously. As they have logged at least 31 edits to ANI alone . ] ] 05:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::There's a lot of strawmen there to knock down if I cared to derail this conversation, but I'm curious what question you think I'm deflecting? Your assumptions of bad faith are expected, but disappointing. ] (]) 06:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::What I claim you are deflecting KETTLE: Somehow you feel like you can call out someone who hasn’t contributed previously as canvassed, which is a ''serious allegation'', yet that is exactly what your user account history appears reflect. When challenged, you claimed to have edited hundreds of time, which was rebutted with facts, you resorted to allegations. Interestingly they very closely mirror only one other person who liberally throws around terms like strawman and bad faith. And really only one person at ANI has ever held this view so strongly they would plainly say bad faith was “expected” from me . If your not that person, then my query is how did you get involved in this conversation, and when exactly do you proffer that you last edited on here as an IP constructively? ''However, '''if''' you are indeed that person, let me warn you, such activity is considered sock puppetry.'' (Of course editing while accidentally logged out is a human mistake. But persisting and pretending otherwise, is not.) ] ] 07:12, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Don't know what this thread is about, but point 2 and 3 seem wrong - none of my IPs have been blocked, and I am an anon that has, in the to this board I made 38 of them (all edits by IPs starting with 2804:F14), let alone in the last 50 thousand edits. | |||
| ::::::::Maybe I'm misunderstanding your claims. – ] (]) (]) 06:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I think my detail for you was accidentally edited out. You would be an IPv6 from a different country, so unless this IP user is claiming they have rotating IPs hourly because they’re using an international VPN connecting via various countries, I find their claim that they just stumbled upon this conversation dubious at best. ] ] 06:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Also in case you were not aware, while mobile IP addresses can and do change, they still remain with that mobile carrier. So while your ip address will change, who all of those addresses are registered to will not. What I mean is that will your current IP goes back to a US based cell network, you’re not going to get a new IP address that is registered in Japan or even one in the US that is through a completely different network (a few technical exceptions exist, but they’re nevertheless evident). Same with home internet as well. And of course, most work addresses are persistent. All that to say, a claim of “my ip address changes” does not mean that a persona cannot reasonably determine if you’ve contributed to ANI from the a network. ] ] 07:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::When did I say I stumbled upon this thread? Provide the diff. You are putting words in my mouth and casting aspersions. I said my IP changes as a response to you saying I was a new editor. You are creating an elaborate narrative and getting strangely defensive. ] (]) 07:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I will gladly provide the answe after you answer the two questions I have previously asked to you. First was about KETTLE, and the second asked you to substantiate your claim of {{tq|I've contributed to this notice board hundreds of times}} by providing your last contrustive ip edit to this notice board. ] ] 07:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Please read ]. I'm not going to link all of my comments across IPs here for you. If you really believe I was canvassed, you need some diffs, or maybe you should strike your aspersions. ] (]) 07:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::All I can do is laugh at your replies. More KETTLE behavior. You claim don’t have to proof anything per SATISFY, yet in the same breath you demand such of others. More ad hominem, deflection. Zero actual replies. ] ] 08:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::What are you talking about? I asked one question, got one answer and it was done. It was you who started a long thread full of bad faith assumptions and no diffs. Provide diffs, or kindly stop bludgeoning. ] (]) 08:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{collapse bottom}} | {{collapse bottom}} | ||
| {{reflist}} | |||
| {{collapse top|title=K. Solin}} | |||
| == User lobbying fringe subculture off-site for fringe subculture and suspicions of ]ry == | |||
| * ]: | |||
| {{atop|1=It's said that ] - well, ANI is ''also'' not a place to bring fishing expeditions. If you have evidence of ''recent'' misconduct by an editor, then by all means bring it. But if you just {{tqq| more would come to light}}, expect a {{tl|trout}}ing. I'm closing this as unactionable with a fish for the OP, and a caution to in the future compile evidence ''before'' coming to ANI. - ] <sub>]</sub> 18:27, 4 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| ** addition of "illegitimate representative" content and reference stuffed by Wüstenfuchs , sources replaced (note sfn template) by K. Solin | |||
| Over at ] and the very questionable ], both extremely ] topics strongly linked to for example ], myself and a few other users find ourselves having to respond to a lot of accounts that either openly or less than openly state that they're members of the article's subject subculture and that, like the subculture's founders, have a strong distaste for experts ( from one such fairly new account, {{ping|KanyeWestDropout}}). | |||
| ** removal of information relating to Georgetown University degree by K. Solin , removal of information relating to Georgetown University degree by Mostar IP , removal of information relating to Georgetown University degree by AnulBanul | |||
| One of these editors, {{user|Paleface Jack}}, has been caught lobbying off site (). The user has also likely done so elsewhere that hasn't come to light. This user's efforts appear to have led to a variety of ]s popping up to ] any and all changes they disagree with, an effort to shape the articles to the subculture's preference. | |||
| * ]: infobox updated by K. Solin , infobox updated by AnulBanul | |||
| Again, it's important to emphasize that not only has Paleface Jack been caught red-handed here but he has likely also lobbied elsewhere, leading to long-term problems for these and associated articles. | |||
| * ]: created by Wüstenfuchs , updated by AnulBanul and K. Solin (note same HHVM tag) | |||
| As some users here know, I edit a lot on fringe topics and have all but single-handedly written our coverage on topics like ], utilizing nothing but the highest quality possible sources. Along the way, I've endured relentless insults and less-than-pleasant anonymous messages. I've been a personal target for users like Paleface Jack and co for years. | |||
| * ]: cantonal assembly updated by K. Solin , by Mostar IP , by AnulBanul | |||
| As is far too typical in our ] spaces, any action by myself and others introducing ] on these articles is responded to with endless talk page lawyering and complaints from these cryptozoology-associated or -aligned editors, who fill talk pages with page after page of insult-ladden chatter about anything that doesn't fit their preferred messaging. This not infrequently includes insults toward non-adherents abiding by ] and ] (as an example, recently one of the users decided to refer to me as a "", for example). This pattern has been going on for years and is a clear indication of long-term ] and I've frankly put up wth it for far too long. | |||
| * ]: article created by Wüstenfuchs , redirect created by Herr Ziffer , article updated by K. Solin | |||
| This is an all too common pattern that many editors who edit in new religious movement, pseudoscience, or fringe spaces will recognize as an unfortunate reality of editing in these spaces on the site. | |||
| * ]: created by K. Solin , moved and updated by AnlBanul to Faculty of Humanities, University of Mostar | |||
| I recommend that Paleface Jack be topic banned for off-site lobbying for meatpuppets, if nothing else, as well as likely associated accounts per ]. ] (]) 05:41, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Commons: Both at the University of Mostar specifically the Faculty of Philosophy/Humanities. Use identical name format using (1), (2), (3), etc. Use identical licensing and summary. | |||
| ** AnulBanul uploaded images of a speaker at the Faculty of Philosophy, University of Mostar | |||
| ** AnulBanul uploaded images of the exterior of the Faculty of Philosophy, University of Mostar | |||
| ** K. Solin uploaded images of a speaker at the Faculty of Philosophy, University of Mostar | |||
| **K. Solin updated logo of Faculty of Law, University of Mostar intially uploaded by Herr Ziffer | |||
| :I think you're misinterpreting what I said. I don't have any disdain for Loxton and Prothero, all I said was that cryptozoologists have historically discussed a large number of "cryptids" which is something you could see from reading cryptozoologist papers ans books. I've previously cited Loxton/Prothero on cryptozoological wikipedia pages ] (]) 06:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{collapse bottom}} | |||
| ::This user's actual comment in response to my mention of Prothero & Loxton, a dreaded ]: "Learning about cryptozoologists by reading secondhand sources is a poor way to find out what cryptozoologists have actually done historically" (). Funny how a spotlight on ANI can change an editor's tune. ] (]) 07:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thaf didnt change my tune at all! I mentioned that I personally liked that book before you posted this ] (]) 14:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::The incident Bloodoffox is referring to happened years ago when I did not know that was even a rule. It was a mistake I have not repeated, nor have I violated any rules since that incident. | |||
| {{collapse top|title=RossaLuxx}} | |||
| ::That being said, Bloodoffox has a history of antagonizing other users associated with the topic. I am not aware of any of the other occasions where he has been harassed by users, so I sympathize. There are bad editors on this site that do that behavior or make edits that are, in kinder words, sloppy. Fringe topics are constrained as they are to avoid pandering or making it a massive advocation for them and should remain within the neutral guidelines that are enforced on fringe topics. | |||
| *First edit ever edit on Croatian Misplaced Pages was creating a sophisticated userpage with a gradient and image. Note the code in RossaLuxx's page <nowiki><div style="background-color:{{prijelazna boja|top|#000000, #CC0000}};"> | |||
| [[Datoteka:</nowiki> and compare to AnulBanul's page <nowiki><div style="background-color:{{linear-gradient|top|#fdffe7, #FFFFFF}};">[[File:</nowiki> | |||
| *Added category to AnulBanul's File:Croatia 2014 map results.PNG upload , then uploaded File:Croatia 2015 map results runoff.PNG in same style of original, same summary, and same license | |||
| *Mostar IP added AnulBanul's File:Croatia 2014 map results.PNG upload , 13 days later RossaLuxx added File:Croatia 2015 map results runoff.PNG using near identical description | |||
| ::Yes, the topics do need a lot of work, and its hard to find the few good editors that know what they are doing with fringe topics. I myself follow the topic out of interest, not advocacy, and I rarely edit on it mainly cause of a backlog of other projects. I don't pop on to cause trouble as Bloodoffox loves to accuse me of, among the many personal attacks he has made against me. I have had no such incidents since my mistake way back in the day and I have not made any since then. The sole reason I commented in the discussion was because I could see it was rapidly devolving into an antagonistic nature, and though my words could have been put differently, I always wrote that we "needed to find common ground". It has become a point of frustration with this, because of personal attacks on my character and what I have contributed to this site. I am not a disruptor by any means and Bloodoffox has keep making accusations or belittling comments in regards to me and other users who disagree with him. His aggressive and belittling behavior has a huge role in antagonizing other users and it does need to stop. I might be frustrated, but I cannot see how this does any good with moving projects and topics forwards. Banning me from the topic is unnecessary and overkill. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </small> | |||
| {{collapse bottom}} | |||
| :If the only example of off-wiki canvasing is a single blog post from seven years ago, I'm not seeing any case for sanctions. - ] (]) 07:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::This is the only clear incident I've encountered. However, there's good reason to suspect that there's more. Note also that although the user is happy to apologize about it when called on it here, the user also never deleted the off-site lobbying on the cryptozoology wiki. ] (]) 07:21, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I can see a case for a {{tl|trout}} for the OP, at the very least. (Trout-erang?) - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm sorry, Bloodofox, if this has been a contentious area to edit in (there are many such areas on the project) but we can't sanction editors based on suspicions, we require evidence of misconduct and if it is off-wiki behavior, it might be more appropriate to send it to ARBCOM. You have provided a narrative statement of how difficult it is to edit in this field but with few diffs illustrating conflict and other editors have providing competing narratives. This isn't your first trip to ANI so you know what is required here for an admin to take action. And if you do provide some more evidence, I encourage you to provide RECENT evidence (like from the past 3 years), not diffs or statements from when an editor was new and unfamiliar with Misplaced Pages policies and practices. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 08:23, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::While the editor and his off-site post was from 2018 (yet somehow claims to not know it was not OK to canvas for meatpuppets off-site), I figured this might be the case and hoped more would come to light about what's going on off-site (I expect more will, in which case I'll return). ] (]) 08:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::As I have said before, I am not used to conflict on the site and naively did that. If you look back at that whole debate, I did reply saying I was not aware that it was bad. If you look at my history of edits, I rarely (if ever) participate in conflict. I prefer to edit like everyone else on here in a constructive and beneficial manner, so all those accusations strike a nerve with me as they are both untrue and slander. As I have said previously, bloodoffox has a history of provoking conflict by aggressive behavior towards other editors, even when those editors are in the wrong they should not be treated with the level of disdain and contempt. Slandering myself or others either based on an isolated and admitted mistake, then constantly bringing it up as "proof" of his claims that I am an instigator of any sort of conflict he has with others is behavior that only inspires destructive conflicts or edits. I have, in the past, reached out to bloodoffox to apologize and also offer assistance with other projects thinking that would mend any sort of anger and hate. This recent incident has proved me wrong and I am sad to see that it has come to this. I never wanted any conflict, just a healthy way of moving forwards to tackle fascinating and notable topics. | |||
| :::: | |||
| ::::I will admit that it is frustratingly difficult to make edits on fringe topics, I am one of those people that tried to edit some but got frustrated by the overly tight restrictions on the subject (not that I was leaning to one side as some claim I do), which is why I rarely edit on the topic and only do so when I see that there is reliable information benefiting and fitting of the standards set by Misplaced Pages. I love information, and even fringe topics have enough within Misplaced Pages's confines to exist on the site and be a fascinating read for people. I truly hope you read this bloodoffox and realize I never meant you ill or advocate for people harassing you, I want this platform to explore information correctly and efficiently, even if we do not agree with the topic. That is pretty much all that should be said on this matter and hopefully it gets resolved. ] (]) 17:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Taboo of archaeologists == | |||
| {{collapse top|title=Herr Ziffer}} | |||
| {{archivetop|This is fundamentally a content dispute, I see nothing admin-actionable here. ] (]) 10:31, 4 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| This is about {{diff2|1267245598}} by {{u|Jahuah}}. They claim that an unprovenanced archaeological object is authentic. Bona fide archaeologists are not allowed to discuss unprovenanced objects in public. It's a taboo of their profession. So, no bona fide archaeologist can give the lie to the authenticity of that object without losing their job. Since if they mention that object in public they get sacked. ] (]) 06:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Lol, reporting on me? ] (]) 06:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * ]: Herr Ziffer blaming destruction of a church on different army, , AnulBanul blaming destruction of same church on same army , later he claimed that he "wasn't aware" that he made the edit | |||
| :Give me an actual reason why the specific seal in question is not authentic? How about that? Quote me an actual scholar who does? If not, then your words mean jack. ] (]) 06:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::According to ], the claim that such object is authentic is unfalsifiable. Since it is taboo to discuss such object in public. So only biased hacks could affirm it is authentic or inauthentic without losing their jobs. ] (]) 06:52, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * ]: Herr Ziffer uploaded File:Bitka za Karvačar.jpg map on commons , the map was added to the article by Wüstenfuchs , article edited by K. Solin (note there are only 4 editors who have ever edited the page ) | |||
| :::Do you think it’s inauthentic? Or not? Please do not be wasting my time here. ] (]) 06:54, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::It think that claim is utterly unfalsifiable, so it cannot amount to ]. See for details {{YouTube|FYgqnlQXWjA|The Shapira Strips: What Are They and Are They Forgeries?}} by Dr. Robert R. Cargill. ] (]) 06:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Ok. Thanks for actually giving me an answer at least. ] (]) 07:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::What exactly are you asking admins to do there? This looks to me like a content dispute. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Who, me? I’m not asking anything. I just wanted to show how a seal dated by a scholar to the 8th century is indeed an 8th century BC Israelite seal of Hoshea. | |||
| ::::::The guy up there has a problem with that and now apparently I’m on the naughty list. ] (]) 07:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::{{re|The Bushranger}} I have explained them at length why this is utterly problematic, previously. I had expected that they will behave. Misbehaving is a behavioral problem. ] (]) 07:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::I think I know how to behave, thank you very much. I’m not a petulant manchild. ] (]) 07:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::See ] and ]. ] (]) 07:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Lol, I refuted you there. All you did was attack Dr. Mykytiuk and call into question his scholarship. ] (]) 07:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Besides, what does this have to do with the Hoshea seal? ] (]) 07:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::I don't expect any of you to take my word for it, that why I had ] https://web.archive.org/web/20241209232716/https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/archaeology-today/the-problem-with-unprovenanced-objects/ Suffices to say that unprovenanced objects are ethically and juridically fishy. ] (]) 07:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::So no comment on my refutation of your petulant behavior? ] (]) 07:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::Who’s “any of you” by the way? I’m one guy. ] (]) 07:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::You're (only you, not The Bushranger) promoting a claim that is unfalsifiable, unethical, and maybe even juridically problematic. ] (]) 07:18, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::Ooo, that’s a new one. ] (]) 07:20, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::Nope, if you had read carefully what I told you in 2024, there is nothing new about my claim. ] (]) 07:41, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::i can tell you’re clearly upset with me. >:). Good. You guys represent scholarship only when it suits your ideology. ] (]) 07:42, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::::It's not about my ideology. It is about: bona fide archaeologists are not allowed to discuss such claims in public. So no bona fide archaeologist could affirm that that object is authentic or inauthentic, because the next day they will have to flip burgers at Target. ] (]) 07:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::::Fine whatever, I apologize. ] (]) 07:49, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Demands to prove a negative are a nonsensical and puerile debating tactic. The editor must cite evidence that the item is considered authentic, or refrain from stating so in WP's voice. Simple as that. --<span style="font-family:Courier">]</span> <small>(] · ])</small> 07:17, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:Is the editor referring to me? ] (]) 07:20, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:If so, here you go. Lawrence J. Mykytiuk, Identifying Biblical Persons in Northwest Semitic Inscriptions of 1200-539 B.C.E. (Boston: Brill, 2004), 58., https://www.academia.edu/62900860/Iconography_on_Hebrew_Seals_and_Bullae_Identifying_Biblical_Persons_and_the_Apparent_Paradox_of_Egyptian_Solar_Symbols_ABSTRACT_ ] (]) 07:21, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::Since bona fide archaeologists are not allowed to discuss it, you win by default? ] (]) 07:22, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Elmidae, were you referring to me? ] (]) 07:24, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::Bona fide archaeologists will lose their jobs for merely mentioning Mykytiuk's claim. ] (]) 07:30, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::I was talking to Elmidae. ] (]) 07:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::Yes, they were talking to you. Also both of you take a chill pill for a minute, please - this disucssion is already approaching ] levels of length from the back-and-forth above. Tgeorgescu, you don't have to ] esepecially when it's in response to other editors. Jahuah, {{tqq|i can tell you’re clearly upset with me. >:). Good.}} is not an attitude conducive to cooperative editing. - ] <sub>]</sub> 08:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::Fine, fine, I apologize. I’m just angry that my contributions to Misplaced Pages get deleted. I just wanna leave some edits and then I’ll leave this site for good. I promise. ] (]) 08:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::I also want to make sure my contributions are kept before I leave. ] (]) 08:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:This editor appears to be edit warring across multiple pages to assert historical uncertainties as fact based on unconfirmed and speculative research from biblical archaeology blogs and the like. ] (]) 07:44, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::Oh look, BAR society is no longer reputable because some Misplaced Pages mod said so. ] (]) 07:49, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::By the way, who am I edit warring with? That’s news to me. ] (]) 07:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::We don't have "mods" on Misplaced Pages. But you have only been editing for a month so it shouldn't be expected that you would know much about how Misplaced Pages works. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 08:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::Hmph. I guess I’ll go then. Sorry for the trouble I caused. ] (]) 08:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::], I wasn't asking you to leave the project, just pointing out that you are a newer editor. Misplaced Pages is chockful of rules and guidelines and it's not realistic to expect new editors to be familiar with them all. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 09:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::No, no. It’s ok. It’s clear that I have caused more problems here than solved. I just hope my contributions will stay, or at least be kept until new data comes. I’ll be out of your hairs soon. ] (]) 10:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{blockquote|it's an unprovenanced object and likely a forgery it was not found in a licensed archaeological excavation it does not possess a credible chain of custody this is very much too good to be true but since people of faith want to believe it and since it's not against the law to use your free speech to make false claims like this forgers will make forgeries and antiquities dealers will put them up for sale and try to make as much money as they can but these kind of forgeries pollute legitimate biblical archaeology and it is why so many scholars myself included do not publish critical reviews of unproven objects once you give them credence their value is increased even if you put a little asterisk by them and designate them as unprovenanced and merely teach the controversy you are still giving them scholarly recognition and debate that the forger and the antiquities dealer so desperately crave publishing unprovenanced objects leads to looting and to forgeries it's that simple|Dr. Robert R. Cargill, transcript}} | |||
| Quoted by ] (]) 08:06, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::], this is becoming a detailed content dispute which means it probably should be closed as off-topic for this noticeboard. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 09:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *For the record, tg's hysterical talk about disgraced archeologists flipping burgers at Target is nonsense. There is vigorous controversy about unprovenanced objects, but no one's losing their job for breaking some alleged taboo. ]] 06:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{archivebottom}} | |||
| == HoraceAndTheSpiders == | |||
| * ]: AnulBanul uploaded a crop of Herr Ziffer's copyvio image | |||
| {{atop|1=Attention gotten and message received. - ] <sub>]</sub> 18:23, 4 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| *{{userlinks|HoraceAndTheSpiders}} | |||
| Could someone briefly block ] to get their attention, or come up with better way to get them to read their talk page/comply with the ] restrictions. Thanks. ] (]) 11:40, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * {{done}}. I've left a note on their talkpage that they will almost certainly be unblocked if they promise to keep away from ARBPIA until they are extended-confirmed. ] 11:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thanks ] (]) 11:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::: {{u|Sean.hoyland}} The editor has submitted a suitable unblock request, so I have unblocked. Please let me know if they stray into ARBPIA again. Thanks, ] 12:40, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == TTTEMLPBrony and continued addition of unsourced/crufty material, zero communication == | |||
| * ]: image uploaded by Herr Ziffer , added to article by Wüstenfuchs | |||
| {{atop|1=Blocked. Now CU-blocked. ] (]) 15:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| {{user|TTTEMLPBrony}} has been active since late April 2024. They have a history of adding of unsourced and sometimes controversial material. They have been messaged and warned plenty of times, including by {{u|FlightTime}}, {{u|Doniago}} and {{u|LindsayH}}, but to no avail. Better yet, they haven't responded once on their own talk page.] is required and they do not seem to be willing or able to work with others. I've issued them a warning earlier this week, but looking at their talk page, I see they've been issued stern warnings plenty of times. And despite messages about adding sources, in late December 2024 they created ], which is barely referenced. ]. ] 12:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :They may be unaware of their talkpage, even though 8 months seems a long time for that. I have blocked indefinitely, with an informative message and a link to their talkpage in the log. Unfortunately that's sometimes the only way to get the attention of a non-responsive user. ] | ] 15:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC). | |||
| ::They know about talk pages, {{U|Bishonen}}, because they have used one at least once; i checked when i first tried to communicate with them to no avail. That being said, i think this is a good use of a block, showing we are serious when we say communication is necessary ~ ''']'''<sup>''']''']</sup> 17:30, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Indefinitely blocked after only 5-hours, without the user even editing during that period? For a first offence? After only warnings of the lowest level? I'm no sure why ] even created this request, as there'd been zero editing of the page in question since his talk-page warning 3 days earlier! Much of the edits seem to be merely content disputes. I don't see much repition after notification. And we don't even have rules about providing sources. There was no imminent risk of damage here, and I don't think the conditions laid out in ] have been met. And ] most certainly hasn't been met. This is an appallingly awful block ]. Can I that you reduce it to a week or less just to get attention. I'd suggest a day, but the editor is so infrequent, that they may not not notice. Though given they are moderating their behaviour based on what is posted in their talk page, even a block is barely justified. ] (]) 00:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:I disagree. When an editor refuses to communicate, it's not uncommon for an admin to block until the editor responds. Even the block notice tells them {{tq|Please respond below this post and start communicating, and you may be unblocked.}} Sometimes it's a case where inexperienced editors simply don't realize that they have a talk page or that people are leaving them messages. This block gently brings it to their attention. ] ] 00:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::I see nothing in policy for an indefinite. And an indefinite block is absolutely not "gently". It's the kind of heavy-handed authoritarianism that drives the people we need away. There seemed to be edits that were a real attempt to improve Misplaced Pages. And there seemed to be changes in behaviour that were guided by the comments on the talk page. And there hadn't even been any further edits of concern since the previous warning - days ago. Sure, for Misplaced Pages warriors who frequent ANI, a block is just something you deal with; but I don't think that's how many people would see it. ] (]) 00:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Indef is "until you address the issue", not forever. ] ] 00:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::I believe we are all aware of that. The issue is that doing so, at this stage, is completely outside of our policy, and that doing so for a minor case like this is completely outside of policy. We can't just make start doing things a different way because the admin feels like it. Our policy says that "Indefinite blocks are usually applied when there is significant disruption or threats of disruption, or major breaches of policy". The threat was neither significant (or even very recent) or a major breach of policy. I note that the user in question was only given 5 hours to respond, but after 4 hours, we'd still had no response from ], perhaps she should also have been blocked for not noticing the discussion (yeah, that's irony, not a proposal). ] (]) 06:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *TTTEMLPBrony has now responded, stating that "I have not realized that accounts have talkpages", so apparently my block worked as intended. Unfortunately, they go on to say that ], and also that they ''allowed'' the brother to use the account. Blithely they claim that "I have already dealt with him" - uh, "already"? Anyway, whether or not I believe them about the brother (I can't say I do), the account is clearly compromised, and must stay blocked. With some hesitation, I've turned the block into a softblock, so that they may create a new account, and have explained that they must absolutely not share it with anybody. I have notified the stewards in case they want to globally lock. ] | ] 03:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC). | |||
| **Just because, ], it worked, doesn't mean that you are allowed to just make up your own rules. (but yeah, sounds fishy ... on the other hand, it's probably a child). Please follow protocol, or hand over your keys. Thanks. ] (]) 06:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ***], please be more polite on these noticeboards. The block Bishonen placed was perfectly fine and it's the kind of thing admins have been doing for years. Nothing in policy forbids it, and I believe {{U|The Bushranger}}'s response is along the same lines. Besides, the editor's edit were, and I'm trying to stay polite myself, not good, as their talk page full of warnings indicates: no edit summaries, no responses, no communication, no knowledge of sourcing and sourcing requirements. Finally, I don't know how young that editor might be, but I do know that they are four years older than when {{U|Ponyo}} blocked them. ] (]) 15:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Jypian gaming extended confirmed == | |||
| {{collapse bottom}} | |||
| {{atop | |||
| | status = Sock blocked | |||
| | result = I've run out of sock puns, sorry. — ] ] 17:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)<br> | |||
| ] | |||
| Sock blocked. ]] | |||
| }} | |||
| *{{userlinks|Jypian}} | |||
| On ], the user is making pointless edits after having been here for exactly thirty days. Clearly gaming extended confirmed. ] ] ''<sup style="font-family:Times New Roman">]</sup>'' 12:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I been making real edits since I created my account please take your time to check and I’m sorry for purposely pointless edits for extended confirmed on Day 30. I’m a real and genuine user I just wanted early access to work and edit on important stuff] (]) 13:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Note almost all of his discovered accounts have been indef blocked on various Wikis for tendentious editing and sockpuppetry: | |||
| ::For what reason are you doing this? ] (]) 13:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Wüstenfuchs (hr) | |||
| ::The thing is, articles that only extended confirmed users can edit are like that for a reason. What kinds of {{tq|important stuff}} were you planning on working on? ] ] ''<sup style="font-family:Times New Roman">]</sup>'' 13:24, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * AnulBanul (hr) | |||
| :::Donald Trump Hotel Accident ] (]) 13:26, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Herr Ziffer (bs, hr) | |||
| ::::Considering you've admitted you've gaming the system you need to voluntary agree to refrain from editing anything that requires EC until you've made 500 real edits. The permission will be removed if you don't follow this. I'd also suggest stay away from the Donald Trump hotel article until you've gotten at least a few thousand edits under your belt since being so desperate to edit an article is usually a sign once you do start editing you'll get into trouble. ] (]) 14:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Wustefuchs (bs, commons) | |||
| :::::I have revoked their extended-confirmed permission. They may re-request it from ] after making 500 legitimate edits. —] (] • ]) 14:25, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Wustenfuchs (bs, commons) | |||
| ::::::Im going to edit Donald Trump hotel accident, whatever you want it or not😡 ] (]) 14:42, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * K. Solin (hr) | |||
| :::::::If you create alternative accounts to try and bypass your primary account's restrictions, you will end up being banned. ]] 14:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * RossaLuxx | |||
| :::::::It's unnecessary to threaten or to evade restrictions; you can propose edits via ]. If they are nonsense, though, expect to be blocked as well. ] (]) 14:49, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Ayohayem | |||
| *'''Blocked'''. Blocked as a sock by {{u|NinjaRobotPirate}}. ] | ] 15:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC). | |||
| *:That makes sense. ] (]) 15:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::Thanks for the action NinjaRobotPirate. ] ] ''<sup style="font-family:Times New Roman">]</sup>'' 15:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *<small>As an aside, is it possible to take away the EC permission before it is achieved or otherwise prevent it being automatically gained? I said what I said above because I incorrectly thought they hadn't yet achieved EC. Given this I thought either an admin would need to watch out for them (unless there's an admin bot which can do this) or they could voluntary refrain from using their EC and this wouldn't be necessary. But I checked after and realised I was wrong about them not gaining EC and I'm wondering if I could be wrong about the removal of EC before it's automatically gained. ] (]) 16:12, 4 January 2025 (UTC)</small> | |||
| *:I think it's possible to prevent an account from obtaining EC by granting and immediately revoking it. That apparently stops the account from getting it automatically because it has obtained EC before. ] (]) 16:24, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::Interesting, thanks. Useful to know for the future. ] (]) 17:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Footballnerd2007 == | |||
| As shown above the user shows a propensity to evade scrutiny throughout Wikis by constant logged out IP hopping, fragmenting edit history among new accounts, and making sleeper accounts. In addition to this he has also: | |||
| {{atop | |||
| | result = This is going nowhere fast. Whether or not {{u|Footballnerd2007}} is using an LLM to respond to conversations, they've promised to stay out of other editors' userspace drafts, been notified they shouldn't start RfAs for other editors without speaking to them, and said that they would be more careful with moves. (On that note, I can't warn Footballnerd2007 to not close RM discussions, but I'd highly recommend they avoid doing so until they become more acquainted with community norms.) ] (]/]) 22:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| }} | |||
| I need a second pair of eyes on {{user|Footballnerd2007}} please - apparently a new editor, but they have been closing RM discussions - including one where they introduced a typo, see ] which I have fixed - and they have also been messing around moving my user space pages (see ]) and they have also created ]. None of this is the action of a new editor and my Spidey senses are tingling. ]] 19:27, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Used a Mostar IP of Anulbanul in order to commit sneaky vandalism, a BLP violation, and libel by referring to a man as a "shithead" ("govnar") in Serbo-Croatian and pretending it's his surname | |||
| * Used a Mostar IP of Anulbanul to immaturely troll on the ] article and has even vandalised a "on this day" template he personally dislikes while logged in | |||
| * Used Mostar IPs to help initiate and facilitate edit wars, avoid ], and then report the other user | |||
| **]: , , , | |||
| **]: | |||
| * Used Mostar IPs to delete sourced information and/or push POV | |||
| **]: | |||
| **]: | |||
| **]: | |||
| **]: | |||
| :I don't see an urgent or intractable issue here. Unless/until stronger evidence comes up, I'm going to ] that they're trying to help and suggest ]. ] (]) 19:44, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| His Wustefuchs and Wustenfuchs accounts were both blocked on commons "unfree files after warnings" and abuse of multiple accounts. Despite this he has evaded his block via sockpuppets and continued to purposefully upload copyrighted material under false CC licenses with his Herr Ziffer, AnulBanul, and K: Solin handles as the authors. | |||
| ::I'd like to clarify a point in your message. The statement "and they have also been messing around moving my user space pages (see ])" should be corrected. I have only moved one page, not multiple pages. Please adjust the wording to reflect this accurately. ] • ] ⚽ 19:57, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Uploading as AnulBanul an image crop of a file uploaded by Herr Ziffer which was removed for copyright violation | |||
| :::A response like that is not helping with my suspicions and concerns. ]] 20:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::What exactly am I being accused of? ] • ] ⚽ 20:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::You are either an extremely over enthusiastic new editor making mistakes - in which case you need to slow down a lot, and listen ASAP - or you are a sock trying to be clever. ]] 20:12, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::The former is rather accurate. ] • ] ⚽ 20:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::{{u|GiantSnowman}}, if you have evidence, then the appropriate forum is ]. If you don't, then you're liable to get hit with a boomerang for ]/], even if you end up happening to be correct. ] (]) 21:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::And what would my boomerang punishment be? ]] 21:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::How do I go about making a complaint against him for violating ]/]? ] • ] ⚽ 21:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Response''' | |||
| Hello GiantSnowman, | |||
| * Uploading as K. Solin an image crop of a file uploaded by AnulBanul which was removed for copyright violation | |||
| Thank you for raising these concerns. I'd like to address the points you mentioned: | |||
| * Uploading an image taken from while claiming he made it and falsifying the license | |||
| 1. '''Botched Page Moves:''' Regarding the page moves, I made an attempt to improve the accuracy and consistency of article titles based on my understanding of the situation. I acknowledge that there was a typo introduced, which I appreciate being pointed out, and I have since corrected it. I’ll be more careful in the future to ensure that such errors do not occur. | |||
| * Uploading an image taken from while claiming he made it and falsifying the license | |||
| 2. '''Messing with User Space Draft:''' I apologise for any disruption caused to your user space draft. My intention was never to interfere with your content. I recognise that user space is personal, and I will be mindful to avoid making any uninvited changes moving forward. | |||
| * Uploading several other copyright infringing images as sockpuppets Herr Ziffer and AnulBanul | |||
| 3. '''Creation of an RFA for Cyberdog958''': As for the RFA for Cyberdog958, I stand by my decision to create it. I believed that Cyberdog958 hads demonstrated the necessary qualities for adminship and could be a positive asset to the community. There was no ill intent behind my actions. The RFA was made based on a genuine belief that they were qualified, and I will continue to support nominations that I feel are appropriate based on the contributions and behavior I observe. | |||
| '''TL;DR:''' | |||
| I hope this clears up any misunderstandings. I strive to make constructive contributions and act in good faith, and I appreciate your understanding. | |||
| In summary his activity on Misplaced Pages involves: | |||
| # The absolute denial of any connection to his sockpuppet AnulBanul account and creation and non-disclosure of any other sockpuppet and sleeper accounts (K. Solin, RosaLuxx, etc) | |||
| # The impersonation of an Armenian female individual named Anna Sahakyan from Yerevan to appear more neutral, completely unrelated to past edits/accounts, and assume her identity (even going so far as to upload her selfie image) in order to deceive other users | |||
| # The constant splitting of his past edit history through new accounts and IP hopping to ], sockpuppeteer, deceive users, vandalize, commit BLP violations, circumvent 3RR, and ] | |||
| # The forging of a clean slate that is without previous ARBMAC warnings and blocks to appear in good standing and receive more leeway around admins | |||
| # The willingness to repeatedly avoid blocks and topic bans if he was sure he wouldn't be caught | |||
| ] • ] ⚽ 20:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :RFA - why didn't you discuss with the editor first? ]] 20:11, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I have not once edited with any of those accounts at the English Misplaced Pages, except Wustenfuchs, and I have the right to do so, I can switch to another account for several personal reasons. This was in order to protect my privacy and to protect myself from vandal attacks and other attacks after I edited several pages related to the Syrian civil war back in 2012. It is not my fault that Wikimedia creates accounts on all wikis if you create an account on a Croatian one. Those accounts remained inactive and will remain so. I was blocked for using IPs on your report, and my block ended today. Moreover, I said those were my IPs. Another thing, you will respect my gender identity. I'm not "he". --] (]) 03:51, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::I wasn't aware there was a requirement to do so. I did notify them! ] • ] ⚽ 20:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::''Before'' you made the RFA??? No. ]] 20:17, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I wasn’t pinged about this ANI, but I found it through the RFA message on my talk page. I guess I appreciate the thought, if it was coming from a sincere place, but I would have declined the nomination if I was asked. I’ve never come across this user or interacted with them in any way until now so I’m not sure why they picked me. ]<sup>]</sup> 20:46, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Footballnerd2007, given that Cyberdog958 has confirmed that they have never interacted with you, please confirm how you found them to nominate them for RFA? | |||
| ::Similarly, how did you this afternoon, as I similarly have never heard of or interacted with you before today? ]] 21:21, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :{{u|Footballnerd2007}} thank you for trying to help out, and I'm sorry that GiantSnowman has chosen to escalate this in the way that he has. Page moves can be tricky, and you might want to sit back and watch the process for a while before participating in it yourself. Regarding RFA, it's a serious decision that people usually mull over for years before they finally agree to submit their names, so it's going to be more than a little jarring to have someone else do it on one's behalf. With the user space, it seems you understand the issue so there's no need to retread that. Going forward, I suggest taking things slow and asking for help whenever you think about entering a new area. I've been doing this for a few years now, and I still reach out to someone with experience in the area if I think I want to try something new! ] (]) 21:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :{{u|Footballnerd2007}}, the response that you made at 20:08 has formatting that I have only seen before from AI, never from a human editor. Was it made with an LLM? If so please talk to us in your own words. ] (]) 21:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Yes, I have the feeling that a lot of this editor's comments are AI produced. ]] 21:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I refer you to ]. ] • ] ⚽ 21:31, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thanks for that link - I see therefore that other users have raised concerns with you only yesterday about your RM/discussion closes, and yet you have continued to make poor closes today. Why is that? Why therefore should we trust you when you say you won't do it again, given you have done it again? ]] 21:36, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Yesterday I didn't say I wouldn't do it again, today I have, albeit reluctantly, changed my position for the sake of keeping the peace. ] • ] ⚽ 21:38, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Why did you continue to make the same questionable edits that other editors have previously queried with you? Unless you are deliberately trying to be disruptive? ]] 21:46, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Transparently LLM output. ] (]) 21:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yet they deny using Chat GPT. So either it's ''not'' LLM (and multiple users have raised these suspicions, which I share) and just very odd language, or they are a liar. Which is it? ]] 21:38, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::What unsubjctive hard evidence do you have to support that allegation? ] • ] ⚽ 21:39, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I pulled 11 random AI detectors from Google. Of them, seven give a 100% AI rating. One gives 50% and the 3 others give 0%. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 21:39, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::The final 3 are 100% accurate. ] • ] ⚽ 21:40, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::And the 7 others? ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 21:41, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I have no explanation. ] • ] ⚽ 21:42, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Because there is none - it's absolutely AI generated, you don't need a detector for that. While not against policy, it's heavily frowned upon, as it's not ''your'' words but the LLM's. - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::And given that you have ''repeatedly'' denied use LLM, you are a liar and cannot be trusted. ]] 21:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::I have repeatedly denied using ''ChatGPT'' because I didn't, that's not a lie and you have no evidence to suggest to the contrary. ] • ] ⚽ 21:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::But you have been using a LLM of some kind, yes? ]] 21:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::No comment. ] • ] ⚽ 21:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::We'll take that as a 'yes' then - and that you therefore have not been truthful. The tiny modicum of AGF I had has now fully disappeared. ]] 22:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::So you're accusing me of lying now? As I have said before, I didn't use ChatGPT. ] • ] ⚽ 21:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Yes, I am accusing you of lying. ]] 21:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::That's a serious allegation, what evidence do you have that I use ChatGPT? ] • ] ⚽ 21:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::: is Exhibit A. - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::{{ec}}I'm pretty sure there's LLMs that aren't ChatGPT. But if you're saying "I didn't use a LLM/AI generator at all", then that is . - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::And if you're trying to be clever by saying "I use LLM but not ChatGPT", your comments here have been disingenuous and misleading. You are digging yourself a hole. ]] 21:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::I never made any comment about LLMs in general. ] • ] ⚽ 21:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::Please answer this direct question - have you used LLM? If so, why didn't you own up to that when asked? ]] 21:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::The definition of LLM is somewhat ambiguous so I wouldn't want to mislead you by answering definitively. ] • ] ⚽ 22:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::🤦♂️ ] (]) 22:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::{{ec}}So that's "yes" then, got it. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::] applies (even if only an essay). ]] 22:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::You're not helping your case right now. Even if you're getting dogpiled (''especially'' if you're getting dogpiled) you need to speak clearly and directly. You'll gain far more goodwill by saying you're using an LLM and agreeing to stop. ] (]) 22:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::Thebiguglyalien, do you now understand why my red flags were flagging earlier? There is something off about this editor. ]] 22:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::I don't disagree with your analysis. I disagree with the way you approached it. ] (]) 22:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::A fair criticism. ]] 22:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::I'm sure you've had to deal with this sort of thing far more than I have, so I get that. My philosophy is just that I'd rather give dozens of "cases" that extra chance if it means salvaging one well-meaning productive editor. ] (]) 22:09, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::Which is what I usually try and do, but the alarm bells just really rang here, and I simply wanted a second pair of eyes on the contribs to tell me "yes it's fishy" or "no you're thinking too much". I did not envision this discussion! ]] 22:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::Again, that's conjecture. I just choose my words very carefully. ] • ] ⚽ 22:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::Stop choosing your words carefully. I'm trying to give you a chance that isn't often afforded to new editors here, and you're trying to ], which is also against the rules. ] (]) 22:06, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::{{ec}}Here's the deal - either you used AI, or you {{tqq| my words very carefully}} in a way that is how AI distinctively chooses them. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Here's 4 more AI detectors. Two give 100%, one says 11% (literally the last two sentences), and the other gives 50%. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 22:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Which AI detectors are you using? ] • ] ⚽ 22:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == possible hoaxes == | |||
| ::Good to know you that finally admit to the fact that Wüstenfuchs is indeed your account after claiming that you had "no connection to the said user whatsoever" and again admit to editing from Mostar and not Armenia, Serbia, Georgia, or Russia as you wished to purposely mislead others into believing. | |||
| ::The valid reasons for multiple accounts are listed ]. None of them state that doing what you claim to have done it for is valid. In any event all the edits of the K. Solin, Herr Ziffer, RossaLux accounts were in 2014 and so have nothing to do with some 2012 harassment. | |||
| *{{user|Emilioveh}} | |||
| ::Nonsense those accounts have edits on English Misplaced Pages and correspond with your POV as demonstrated by a litany of diffs. Accounts are automatically made when you visit Misplaced Pages in another language (that's understandable), but you not only did this and edited on the English Misplaced Pages. You edited the Milan Gorkić page on 27 November 2014 as AnulBanul with ] (note tag in summary) and then three days later as K. Solin on 30 November 2014 with HHVM Adding content as AnulBanul and picking up where you left off as K. Solin with references you had previously added as Wüstenfuchs. But I suppose that the brand new account adding info in your POV in an obscure article that you created with the same 1984 Croatian work you used is not you? | |||
| *{{user|Emnoé}} | |||
| *{{user|Larissæ}} | |||
| *{{user|Miguelinor}} | |||
| *{{user|Nose236}} | |||
| The above accounts that have been for creating articles with unverifiable references or with scarce references taken out of context. I recommend reviewing all the articles that these accounts have created here as they may be hoaxes.--] (]) 04:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::In my past correspondences to you as Wüstenfuchs I referred to you in male pronouns (Misplaced Pages is overwhelmingly male) and you never raised this issue, and up until this point the same with your AnulBanul account. I have a hard time believing that you're a female... or that your name is actually Anna, or that you are Armenian, or that you studied at the University of Belgrade, or that you were born and lived in Yerevan, or that that is your selfie image. More likely you are impersonating some poor girl using her name, photo, and location to deceive users. --] (]) 14:24, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :As a note, you don't appear to have notified any of these editors about this section, which is something you need to do when you open a section on this noticeboard. - ] (]) 05:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I've notified all the users about this possible hoax issue already. Suggest any action from administrators if possible. ] (]) 05:30, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Fair enough, that's a valid notion, Fontaine347. Feel free to do so! ] 12:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Edit warring to prevent an RFC == | |||
| :::It is clearly my name is not Anna, as I said, I used this previous account. You can proceede with sock puppet investigation, if you wish. I'll admit I used K. Solin as my account. But had no intention of hiding my edit history. If that's wrongful, I'll suffer the consequences. --] (]) 08:17, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| @] has removed an RFC tag from ] now within . | |||
| ] provides a list of circumstances under which you can stop an RFC started by someone else, and disagreeing with the question or wishing that it contained additional information is not in the list. | |||
| *Don't be shocked if others don't jump in on this, very much TLDR. Let me clear up a couple of things here and allow you to restate the things that really matter: First, whatever happens at Commons or other Wikis, we don't really care so much here. We have no authority there, the rules are different on different wikis, so our focus is really on activity HERE, under most circumstances. Having the account does't matter, only what you do with it matters. | |||
| We have to be pretty strict about this, because an RFC is one of the few ways to attract the broader community's attention when there's an ] problem or a ] that needs outside attention. The fact that an editor doesn't welcome outside attention sometimes indicates that there is a problem. I'm ''not'' saying that these things are happening in this case, but the rules have to be the rules for all RFCs, not just for the ones we agree with, because these things do happen in ''some'' cases. We can't really have opponents of an RFC question/proposal, no matter how well intentioned or how justified they think it is in this one case, unilaterally deciding that the rest of the community doesn't get to find out about the dispute. | |||
| *Next, ANI is the wrong venue for a sockpuppet investigation, and in fact, it is the worst possible venue because it doesn't generate all the autolinks for investigating and ANI isn't a formal board like SPI. Regardless it is here, but you've made it more difficult to investigate. | |||
| I wouldn't bother with this here, except that it's already past my bedtime, so I need someone else to handle this. The proper way forward is to run the RFC, and for the loyal opposition to take the advice about how to respond that they'll find in the first two questions of the ]. See you tomorrow. ] (]) 08:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *What really matters most is overlapping edits on the same article, etc. Secondarily, a clear showing of avoiding scrutiny. If they are avoiding an Arb warning, you can typically just add that Arb warning to their page and be done with it. If they are using multiple accounts for reasons under ] that are acceptable, then they aren't sanctionable. It isn't clear because you have focused on quantity rather than simple linkage here. Can you please narrow it down to what really matters. ] - ] 06:45, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::I mentioned commons and the other Wikipedias to demonstrate that the behavior isn't restricted to a single language or part of Misplaced Pages and to show what he has a propensity for doing. I didn't dwell on it much. A sockpuppet investigation shouldn't be necessary in the first place as users who do have multiple accounts are supposed to have them "fully and openly disclosed" and not create personas for them, deny any connection to them, and keep them hidden. But if you insist then I'll post the matter there also. None of the valid reasons for using multiple accounts is applicable here. As shown above he has been "''avoiding scrutiny''" by "using alternative accounts that are not fully and openly disclosed to split your editing history means that other editors may not be able to detect patterns in your contributions. (...) it is a violation of this policy to create alternative accounts to confuse or deceive editors who may have a legitimate interest in reviewing your contributions" (AnulBanul, K. Solin) and "''editing logged out to mislead''" by "editing under multiple IP addresses may be treated the same as editing under multiple accounts where it is done deceptively or otherwise violates the principles of this policy." (edit war and avoid 3RR, delete sourced info, POV push, sneaky vandalism, a BLP violation, troll) --] (]) 14:24, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::The point is, you muddy the waters when you add all that extra stuff. Show links to articles where he edited first as an editor, then as another editor or IP. Those are facts, all the other stuff just makes it too long to read and determine. Sockpuppet investigating is about dry facts, no opinions. Honestly, ] is where it needs to go, as you are claiming four accounts, and there is the need for a formal board where random input from other editors isn't an issue. They key is getting it right, not getting it fast or in the ANI crowd. ] - ] 15:26, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :I have violated my topic ban, and was blocked for ten days - that is, until today. --] (]) 08:39, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *I agree this goes beyond sockpuppet as it seems to be all about long-term gaming the system and may need to go to arbitration. Even if it's tl;dr, I read and it's good detective work. The whole back story doesn't matter (there's no problem to invent an identity, outside of taking someone else's photo) except it's very easy to prove untrue and thus provides no plausible alternative as to another identity. Additionally, someone who goes to extravagant lengths to edit here is not likely to be dissuaded by the usual sock blocks. AnulBanul, if you are an Armenian (or Russian-Armenian, by your name Anushka) would you prefer to discuss this situation in Armenian or Russian? You only edited one article on the Russian Misplaced Pages and I can't understand it - in the infobox, you changed the link to ] to ] (the disambiguation)... a bit odd. ]<sup>]</sup> 😜 07:57, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :As previously explained elsewhere, I removed the tag because my understanding is that the serious COI issues invalidate the RfC. | |||
| :I already explained myself. See my other post. --] (]) 08:10, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :I am perfectly happy to take instruction on that point if I am incorrect but the removals were undertaken in good faith. | |||
| ::Sorry {{u|AnulBanul}}, which post is that? ]<sup>]</sup> 😜 11:37, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :The idea that I should be reported to ANI for this just because it is past someone's bedtime (and they don't have time for talk page discussion) seems to me rather an over-reaction. ] (]) 08:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Indeed, I am perfectly happy to volunteer to replace the tag if an administrator indicates that that is the appropriate course of action. ] (]) 08:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{u|Axad12}}, please do not tamper with the RFC. I have already commented there again based on my previous assessment five weeks ago, and I have ''absolutely no'' conflict of interest in this matter. In my opinion, you are taking too aggressive a stance on this issue. I happen to be an administrator but I am also involved with the dispute as an ordinary editor. ] (]) 08:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{u|Axad12}}, I'd strongly suggest you return the tag. {{u|WhatamIdoing}}, a {{tl|trout}} for ]ing. - ] <sub>]</sub> 08:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Thank you for both of your advice. I will shortly replace the template. | |||
| ::::The COI issue does not relate to Cullen, it relates to another user entirely. I would be grateful for input on the underlying COI issue, which seems to me to have been an exceptionally serious abuse. ] (]) 09:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::What? A company quite reasonably does not want to be ''falsely accused'' of adulterating their edible product with antifreeze, based on what a fringe source wrote, and you consider that {{tpq|exceptionally serious abuse}}? ] (]) 09:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :No, I'm referring to the series of events outlined here where a paid COI editor has a COI edit request turned down and then starts cultivating a co-operative project member to implement non-contentious COI edit requests before reintroducing the contentious COI edit request and immediately tipping off their repeatedly canvassed project member to implement that contentious request. | |||
| :I feel that that is an exceptionally serious abuse - clearly it is an attempt to distort the COI editing process by attempting to make sure that a previously co-operative project member deals with a resubmitted request rather than waiting for a random volunteer working out of the relevant queue (one of whom had previously declined the request). | |||
| :As I said above, I am quite happy to take instruction on this point - but personally I feel that what happened there was highly inappropriate. ] (]) 09:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::In other words, you want highly misleading content to remain in the article, just to make a point? ] (]) 09:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Cullen, my post directly above is clearly about a point of process rather than a point of content. | |||
| :::Even if the original COI edit request was incorrectly declined that would not justify the paid COI editor attempting to game the system to get the request through at the second time of asking. ] (]) 09:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::"Asking a second time" is not ]. ] (]) 22:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Agreed, but for a COI user to attempt to influence which user will deal with the second request does constitute gaming the system. ] (]) 22:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::No, it doesn't. Read the guideline instead of guessing about its contents from the ]. See, e.g., {{xt|An editor ''gaming the system'' is seeking to use policy in bad faith, by finding within its wording some apparent justification for disruptive actions and stances that policy is clearly not at all intended to support.}} Asking an individual to help has nothing to do with finding wording in a policy to justifying disruptive actions or stances that are not intended in that policy. | |||
| ::::::I also direct your attention to the item that says {{xt|Gaming the system may include...]ing the consensus-building process}}. ] (]) 22:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I was using the phrase 'gaming the system' in it's natural application (not specifically referring to ], which I didn't know existed until you linked to it above). Clearly the COI user was attempting to distort the COI edit request process in some way - whether one refers to what they were doing as 'gaming the system' or some other similar phrase is neither here nor there. ] (]) 23:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Also worth noting that ever since the original COI edit request back in August the clear talk page consensus has been that the material should remain within the article and is not {{tq|highly misleading}}. | |||
| :::I've been part of that consensus position since approx October/November. Since that time the user who opened the RfC has repeatedly been opening new threads, continually trying to re-address a subject where they are repeatedly in the minority and presumably hoping that those who previously opposed them do not turn up to oppose them again. ] (]) 10:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Maybe we should hold an RFC on whether the RFC tag should be there? ] (]) 09:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Right, I've had breakfast now so am in a position to make a more serious reply. This is a content issue (on which I hold, as yet, no opinion). On this page we often tell editors that the way to settle a content issue that hasn't been settled by more informal methods is by holding an RFC. Axad12, you should express your opinion as part of the RFC, not oppose holding it. By your behaviour you are turning people against you who might have supported you. ] (]) 10:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I've already said that I'd be happy to replace the tag if instructed to do so, and upon being instructed to do so I immediately replaced it. As far as I can see that issue is now resolved. | |||
| ::I've asked for comment on the underlying COI issue, which is not a content issue. ] (]) 11:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::RFCs can handle COI issues. In fact, when ] can't resolve a dispute, they sometimes host an RFC to settle it. The nice thing about an RFC in such situations is that if it closes with an outcome like "The consensus is stick it to these fully policy-compliant, completely disclosed paid editors by making sure that this article implies the company's product was adulterated with a poisonous industrial chemical, just because we found one ] book that used this language, because it's really unreasonable of them to not want sensationalist and derogatory information in our article about their product" then you can generally be sure that the result will stick for at least 6 months and usually longer. | |||
| :::But you've got to get that consensus first, and I'm not sure you will. For one thing, it's been my ] experience that when someone objects to holding an RFC because the question is biased, that's a fairly reliable sign that they expect the RFC result to not match their preference. ] (]) 22:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::My concern (rightly or wrongly) was simply that there was a COI element to the request which had not been disclosed. I swiftly requested clarification on that point and upon receiving that clarification I immediately reverted myself. | |||
| ::::It isn't really relevant here but actually I ''didn't'' expect the RfC to develop contrary to my preference. That was because the previous 4 months had indicated a consistent consensus opposing what the instigator of the RfC was proposing. In fact, to be perfectly honest, I don't actually have a particularly strong preference one way or the other on the issue at stake - I've simply consistently observed during November and December that the consensus was against Zefr, which seemed to me to be a simple matter of fact based on the various talk page threads from August to December. ] (]) 23:38, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *On matters concerning the Breyers article, Axad12 has been an uncollaborative, disruptive, and hostile editor ] with {{u|Graywalls}}, who is the main proponent over months of using the slur, "antifreeze", to describe a minor GRAS ingredient that is the subject of the current RfC. Both users have ignored requests on the talk page to collaborate for a factual, well-sourced article. | |||
| :::No. The one where I said, that I created additional account in order to distance myself from possible vandalisms made on my old Wustenfuchs account, after editing Syrian civil war topic. --] (]) 13:07, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::What vandalism against Wüstenfuchs? Your account was already blocked! You made AnulBanul in September 2014, right after Wüstenfuchs was finally blocked on the Croatian Wiki. (Btw, Wüstenfuchs was blocked for two-years after 19 PREVIOUS blocks on the Croatian Wiki. Wüstenfuchs was also blocked eight times on the English Wiki.) Then you made K. Solin in November 2014. So you didn't just make one additional account, you made ''at least'' two.... all to "protect yourself" from retribution against edits you made two years earlier? ]<sup>]</sup> 😜 14:25, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Keep picking and it all falls apart. First he claimed he had "no connection whatsoever" to the Wüstenfuchs account and that it wasn't his, then claimed all accounts but the Wüstenfuchs account weren't his, and then claimed all but the Wüstenfuchs and K. Solin accounts weren't his. Note he's deleted his AnulBanul userpage likely to make evidentiary diffs of his user page null and to make the RossaLuxx claim unverifiable. --] (]) 16:55, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *<s>'''Proposal to take this to arbitration.'''</s> I have been trying to go through all this information across the various wikis and admin reports, admissions of using multiple accounts without disclosure, admissions of ban evasion, admissions of violating topic bans, etc. I don't think ANI or SPI is the right place for either as the response will be "tl;dr" which is benefiting AnulBanul, as is the "different wikis have different policies" reasoning. He created the AnulBanul account after being given a two-year ban on the Croatian Misplaced Pages, in order to evade the ban (behavior not allowed on any Misplaced Pages) and AnulBanul was indeffed on the Croatian Wiki after being caught. As AnulBanul's favorite topics are areas under oversight, I think it needs to be taken to arbitration. Taking a random person's someone's photo off the Internet and uploading it to Commons as a "self-portrait" in order to use it on the a Misplaced Pages userpage to disguise oneself (sorry, this is not you ) is a significant violation of the rules, and should be investigated. ]<sup>]</sup> 😜 12:33, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| **You don't propose to take it to Arb, you either take it there or you don't. Please note that if you haven't even filed an SPI so a formal investigation can be done (and likely completely deal with since they can deal with anything, even behavior, and use Checkuser) then it will surely get thrown out. Arb is the final step after everything else has failed, not the first. ] - ] 15:45, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::See my comment to Мандичка above. SPI is unnecessary and the evidence against the other two accounts are just as definitive. --] (]) 16:55, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::OK struck out the proposal part. But my intention was to ask the people more familiar if they would like to take it to Arbitration. I just became aware of this situation, but it seems to me that the usual check user/ANI is not being effective in this case and are only of slight inconvenience to this editor. There are not enough people interested in taking the time to wade through this information on ANI. There is considerable, very aggressive gaming the system to avoid blocks and topic bans on multiple wikis, going back to at least 2008, all in order to make disruptive posts, and IMO there needs to be some kind of global checkuser to see the full extent. I've never created an Arb case so I don't know how to proceed. ]<sup>]</sup> 😜 19:54, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Having never contributed a sentence or source to the Breyers article, Axad12 has blatantly reverted simple, sourced edits claiming a false consensus which has no good source to support the propylene glycol/"antifreeze" claim and no evidence of consensus input by other editors over the last many weeks. An evolving consensus on the RfC is to exclude mention of propylene glycol as undue. | |||
| == Terre Haute Indiana IP vandal - Muppets vandalism continued == | |||
| {{archivetop|result=IP blocked by Dianna and all pages protected by Kudpung. --] (]) 06:47, 29 June 2015 (UTC)}} | |||
| Hiya, this is a continuation of . Basically, a vandal who uses IPs geolocating to Terre Haute, Indiana, US and other Indiana cities is on a long-term campaign to disrupt articles related to the beloved Muppets. {{u|Kudpung}} was kind enough to protect a number of articles, but the user is back at a different IP ({{ipvandal|50.104.196.249}}) messing with the articles that were not protected. Kudpung didn't see egregious vandalism from this IP, but my argument was that the IP should be blocked per ] since they have been vandalizing Muppets-related articles for quite some time and are de facto not welcome here. | |||
| Scientific and legal literature concerning propylene glycol (]) placed on the talk page have been ignored by both users, without attempts to discuss or apply what any objective editor reading the sources would agree are authoritative. | |||
| * demonstrates ''some'', but not all, of the scope of the problem. I only started noting geolocations in my edit summaries late last year or so. Their disruptions are not limited to Muppets stuff, but they are focused on that subject. | |||
| * Though I know that blocks aren't punitive, the vandal continues to avoid virtually every standard we have for discussion, sourcing, etc. They have never discussed anything as far as I know, they never submit references, and there's no presumption that anything that comes out of these socks should be considered correct. It's just a distraction. | |||
| * Here, for instance, they keep submitting the same giant list of pointless Muppet cameos in spite of a number of other editors rejecting the content. Other examples of that same edit , , , , , , , , , , . That's a combination of POV/ownership/edit-warring/ignoring what the community wants and is absolutely disruptive. The persistent unsourced date changes are no better. Even if they hop IPs, they should be held to a basic standard, which they have never achieved. Thus, de facto banned. If you're still not convinced that this is the same person, please note the reported IP's unexplained removal of content at ] (the puppeteer behind Kermit the Frog) and then some of the other removals , , , and you can probably continue the pattern. | |||
| '''Proposal''': Because of Axad12's hostile attempt to revert a legitimate RfC, tag-team behavior with Graywalls on the Breyers article edits, canvassing each other on its talk page, and ], Axad12 and Graywalls should be ] from the Breyers article and its talk page. | |||
| So basically I'd like to get some clearance to treat this as a ]/] situation so I can ask admins block the IPs on sight. It would also be nice to get some additional page protections on the articles that were most recently vandalized by 50.104.196.249. Thanks, and don't forget to change your mop water. ] (]) 14:29, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| : Note that this is a continuation of ], and in that one the IP was originally using a 50.104.200.xx address – is there anyway we can get some kind of rangeblock on 50.104.xx.xx here? Or will that cover too much territory for a rangeblock?... In any case, I '''support''' whatever it takes to stop this IP vandal once and for all... --] <small>(] • ])</small> 16:37, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Hey, thanks for that ANI link, {{u|IJBall}}! They have also edited from 172.78.xx.xx range and 50.106.xx.xx. They tend to edit from Frontier Communications IPs. ] (]) 16:54, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. ] (]) 21:43, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ''Update:'' {{U|Diannaa}} blocked the IP above for 36 hours. That's all well and good, but I'm with Cyphoidbomb that this is a more persistent problem, and I really think we may need to look at a rangeblock here (if it can't be done, it can't be done, but I'd at least like the possibility investigated...). --] <small>(] • ])</small> 16:27, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| **You need to notify Graywalls of this discussion. I have done so for you. In the future, remember to do so yourself. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*There's an opportunity for a range block at Range 50.104.192.0/19 (covers 8192 IP addresses). I have gone ahead and done that (blocked for 3 months). | |||
| *:'''Oppose''': I have reverted Zefr on 3 occasions on the Breyers article over the last few months. That was because the edits they had made were, at that time, contrary to talk page consensus. The fact that I had not contributed to the article is neither here nor there in that regard. | |||
| :*172.78.98.129 is from a different range, and is currently blocked for 3 months. You say there's been other edits from this range, but a range block cannot be calculated from only one IP. We need at least two, and preferably more. | |||
| *:I have not {{tq|ignored requests on the talk page to collaborate}}, I have simply objected to Zefr's repeated attempts over a 3 month period to re-open a discussion where the consensus has always been against them. | |||
| :*50.121.7.53 is from a different range, is not currently blocked, and was last used on June 24. | |||
| *:Six different users have previously objected to the changes Zefr has been trying to make and that was clearly a majority of those who commented between August and December 2024. | |||
| :*50.195.250.46 is from a different range, was last used in April, and is not currently blocked. | |||
| *:I accept that the current RfC is going Zefr's way, however that fact should not be used to reinterpret events over the last 4 months where Zefr has historically been in a small minority insufficient to claim a consensus in favour of the changes they wished to make. | |||
| :*I suggest you prepare a ] case file for this user. A combination of range blocks and article protection has been used effectively in the past. You can expect to get quick action on your posts at AIV if you have an LTA case page already in place. -- ] (]) 17:36, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *:Also, the idea that I made a {{tq|hostile attempt to revert a legitimate RfC}} is untrue. As I have pointed out above, my actions were in good faith and it can be seen that I immediately volunteered to revert my removal of the template if I received instruction from an admin to that effect. | |||
| {{archivebottom}} | |||
| *:I cannot see that I was ever canvassed to appear at the Breyers talk page, I arrived there entirely independently back in November having been aware of the ongoing situation re: the various COI edit requests because the COI edit request queue is the volunteer queue that I spend most of my time here working from. I've probably read pretty much every COI edit request that has been made on Misplaced Pages over the last 6 to 12 months and there are a small number of talk pages that I look at from time to time. | |||
| *:Graywalls and I work on similar cases and sometimes we find ourselves working alongside each other, especially if material has been discussed at ], but occasionally ending up in the same place and on the same side of an argument does not entail tagteaming. ] (]) 22:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' I was the one who suggested RfC in the first place. , because I felt it was not a productive disagreement anymore. Leading up to the RfC, there was rough talk page consensus to include a mention pf propylene glycol, but if consensus in RfC determines that it should be left out, I have no intention of fighting it. Someone raised a concern there was only one source, so I added another source. Other than this, I've not really touched contentious parts of this article recently. I'm not sure why Axad12 removed the RfC and I can't speak for their actions, but the accusation of Tagteam is unwarranted. I've taken deferent steps to not continue to engage in back and forth edit warring and I'd like to believe that I'm approaching this the correct way. I do want to bring up concerns about Zefr's civility though. Please see ] for some concerns I raised. I also find leaving snarky comment about being a PhD student who disagreed on contents troubling ]. {{re|Aoidh}} also felt Zefr was "weaponing" claims of edit warring to restore their "preferred version" earlier on in the dispute. Please see ] ] (]) 02:34, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == ] with another editor, Part 2 == | |||
| : |
*:Graywalls, I think you were correct to recommend an RFC. Hopefully the RFC will reach a consensus. ] (]) 03:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | ||
| *::I'd just like to echo that sentiment. I'm all in favour of consensus. | |||
| In followup to , {{userlink|Gabrielkat}} has continued their ] on '']'' and continues to revert my edits, has made ZERO attempt to discuss this issue with me properly and per {{userlink|Adjwilley}} I am to notify of this issue happening once more. This user is clearly interested in being the only editor to update the episode count, and is unwilling to co-edit, which shows severe signs of owning the page. User returned to reverting my edit () to only replace it seconds later with their own (). I am requesting that this editor be held responsible for their irresponsible editing patterns. , and they chose to neither respond nor attempt to resolve the matter; instead, they're choosing to continue their editing behaviors. In turn, user also uses the same exact edit summary as I use, therefore it's even more suspect that they are editing this way to ]. They are clearly ]. User previously also as I noted in my previous filing, which shows they are still exhibiting the same pattern of behavior. And upon adding the AN-notice on their page, it was immediately removed, which shows they are not interested in ]. User is now attempting to do all soaps (), which is fine, but their edit to '']'' is in violation of the consensus at the soap project, which states that it must be done once an episode has '''completed airing'''. I see this as an attempt of the editor using this as an attack against myself as an editor, as they've also ignored this ANI-notice. It is alarming that this behavior is continued to be acceptable to Misplaced Pages and its administration. ''']''' ] 18:07, 26 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *::My position on this article hasn't been motivated by a partisan view on Propylene Glycol but has simply been in relation to serving the consensus position as it stood at the time. That is the approach I hope I adopt on all Misplaced Pages articles. If the consensus alters on this article (as seems likely) then I'll adopt the same approach in relation to serving the ''new'' consensus. | |||
| :I'm kind of on break at the moment and haven't had time to review all the edits, but I did notice that at ] article, ] seems to have stopped reverting and then re-instating others' edits until last week, and then when they did, they self-reverted to the old edit count. This to me suggests a one time slip-up, rather than bad faith continuation of the disruptive behavior, though it's hard to tell when the user refuses to communicate. However, I have not had time to review the other diffs brought by ]. <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~] <small>(])</small></span> 15:06, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *::My primary area of interest on this website is COI issues. I'm simply not interested in content disputes or in pushing any kind of POV on Misplaced Pages. I'm not the sort of user who flagrantly disregards a newly emerging consensus by editing contrary to the outcome of an RfC. | |||
| *::I'd welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that going forwards (i.e. without an article ban). ] (]) 06:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::* The mention by Graywalls for an RfC on 27 Dec had no influence on the one existing. As an uncomplicated process, an editor truly sincere in having community input would have posed a simple objective question. Graywalls, why didn't you take 5 minutes and create the RfC question you wanted? What would have been your RfC question? | |||
| *::Specifically for propylene glycol (you are still defending its use in the article by - see comments about this book in the RfC): {{tq|what do you believe propylene glycol does in a frozen dessert and what would you prefer the article to say about propylene glycol? I have asked for this clarification on the talk page many times and in the DRN, but you ignored the opportunity to collaborate and clarify.}} | |||
| *:: | |||
| *::Your reverts in article history and combative talk page behavior over months revealed a persistent intent to disparage the Breyers article, focus on the "antifreeze" slur (mainly promoting ), and restore a skeletal version having no sources more recent than 2018 , after That version also has misinformation under the section 'Ice cream', falsely stating that Breyers changed their ice cream ingredients by using other additives, which in fact, were used to evolve a new category of frozen desserts not intended to be ice cream. I believe you know this, but you and Axad12 persisted to favor misinformation for the article. | |||
| *::The RfC I provided came from steps in the lead of ]: 1) generally poor talk page progress, where one editor seeking facts verified by current sources was opposed by Graywalls, Adax12, and {{u|NutmegCoffeeTea}}, all defending a version including "antifreeze"; 2) an RSN post where Graywalls argued that a web link by the Seattle PI made the Motley Fool article an RS; 3) for which Graywalls, Axad12, and NutmegCoffeeTea abstained from collaboration to improve the article; 4) , which appears to be <u>willfully ignored</u> by Axad12 and Graywalls, who responded only with hostility and defiance against the facts; 5) seeking third opinions from admins, first by BD2412 (talk page on 29-30 Nov) and by , resulting in verbose trolling by these two users. Axad12's response on 27 Dec was to . | |||
| *::Axad12 and Graywalls should be ABANNED from the Breyers article for exhibiting 1) hostility on the talk page to good faith proposals for making the article better, and 2) persistence to perpetuate misinformation on propylene glycol. Simply, what history shows that either editor has tried to improve the Breyers article? Both users meet most of the definitions of ] for the article, its talk page, and the RfC. ] (]) 18:17, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Zefr, I've already indicated on several occasions that I welcome and support the developing new consensus. Graywalls has made a similar comment below. That being the case, I don't really see what purpose an article ban would be intended to serve. | |||
| *:::Admittedly there has been some quite heated disagreement over recent months, but it seems that we all now have the robust talkpage consensus that we were hoping for in one way or another and that all three of us are happy to move forward in support of that consensus. | |||
| *:::You were clearly in the minority for quite a long time and I can appreciate that you found that experience frustrating. However, to continue to make allegations above of bad faith, trolling, tagteaming, etc. about those who constituted the valid majority for several months is just an attempt to perpetuate strife on an issue which is now, as far as I can see, satisfactorily resolved. ] (]) 19:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Filed under: sometimes you hurt articles by treating COI editors as the enemy. The problem here is two users who should really know better edit-warring over the course of ''months'' to reinstate TikTok diet influencer silliness into a Misplaced Pages article, repeatedly reinstating ] content (implicitly, if not explicitly). We currently treat a little "avoid antifreeze" bubble in a diet book (which includes Breyers in a list of brands) and a book published by one of RFK Jr's antivax publishers as ] for including the insinuation that an FDA-approved and much-conspiratorialized additive is harmful. They've been repeatedly removed, but two editors keep putting them back, whether because of a misunderstanding of ]/] or in pursuit of COI purification. — <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 13:24, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:I take your point but I think you're misjudging the situation somewhat. Prior to the opening of the current RfC it was approximately 6 or 7 users in favour of inclusion vs 3 or 4 favouring exclusion. I only reverted the attempts at exclusion because those attempts were contrary to the talk page consensus. | |||
| *:I'm perfectly open to the suggestion that that consensus position was wrong but the simple fact of the matter was that there was ''at that time'' no consensus in favour of exclusion. | |||
| *:It has only been in the last couple of days that the requesting editor has been able to demonstrate a consensus in favour of exclusion. And that's great, I have no problem with that at all. In fact I welcome it. | |||
| *:My understanding is that editors wishing to make changes to article text should not do so if there is a consensus against what they are trying to do, and that under such circumstances an edit can be (indeed ''should be'') reverted. If I'm mistaken on that score then I'm perfectly happy to take instruction. However, I really want to stress that my actions were based primarily upon that reasoning and were made in good faith. ] (]) 14:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::@], you should not revert something because other editors want it to be reverted. You should only make content changes that you personally support. This is necessary for BRD to work. See ] for an explanation of why. ] (]) 17:25, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:{{re|Rhododendrites}}, the antifreeze matter is ] since I believe everyone's pretty much agreed it doesn't need to be in there. Zefr has taken issues with me, Axad12, NutMegCoffee and possibly some others. They've tried to get the article "set in place" to their preferred version, but that was declined admin {{u|Daniel Case}} who determined it to be content dispute ]. Zefr inferring alleging I was <s>"uncooperative"</s> <u>not collaborating/cooperating in the way that he was hoping</u> in DR, but I don't believe that to be so. <u>There was nothing intentional on my part to not cooperate.</u> I'll see if {{re|Robert McClenon}} would like to share their observation on that since they closed the dispute. | |||
| *:https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Breyers/Archive_2#c-Rusalkii-20240814014600-Inkian_Jason-20240801145900 here's another uninvolved editoring erring on the side of inclusion. A one sentence mention of propylene glycol isn't something that is out of line and as others have mentioned, it falls under contents dispute and thus the choice to leave in/out rests on consensus. Reading through the current plus the archived discussions, up until the RfC, the general consensus is in support of having PG mention and Zefr's preferred version shouldn't trump consensus. As I mentioned, if consensus changes with the RfC, I'm not opposed to going with that. ] (]) 17:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC) (adjusted ] (]) 13:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC)) | |||
| *::For the record, I never stated the word "uncooperative" at DRN or the Breyers talk page, but rather "non-collaborative", as discussed in the thread with Robert McClenon below. | |||
| *::"Set in place to their preferred version" and "Zefr's preferred version shouldn't trump consensus" should be translated to using "facts verified by reliable sources", which is the simple goal for the Breyers article that Graywalls has obstructed over months. | |||
| *::It's incredible that Graywalls says even today above, knowing the comments on the RfC and months of being presented with facts and sources about why propylene glycol is safely used in thousands of manufactured foods: ''"A one sentence mention of propylene glycol isn't something that is out of line and as others have mentioned, it falls under contents dispute and thus the choice to leave in/out rests on consensus."'' | |||
| *::Here's your chance to tell everyone: | |||
| *::Why do you feel propylene glycol was used in Breyers frozen desserts (in 2013, not since)? What concern do you have about it, and what government or scientific source says it's unsafe in the amounts regulated by federal laws? Give a sentence here that you think meets consensus and uses a reliable source. ] (]) 01:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::You're right, you did not use that specific word. I've corrected my response due to wording. ] (]) 13:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===A Non-Mediator's Statement=== | |||
| *Based on Adjwilley's comments and my own observations, I've issued a final warning to him, making it perfectly clear that if he does this again, he will be blocked. This is the last bit of rope he will likely see with this. Reverting edits and then adding them back as your own, I find that particularly offensive and inconsistent with our goals at Misplaced Pages, and I think I made that clear on his talk page. ] - ] 15:35, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| I am not entirely sure why ] has pinged me about this dispute, saying that I "closed this dispute". The accuracy of the statement that I "closed this dispute" depends on what is meant by "this dispute". | |||
| I closed the ] thread, ], on 12 December. I obviously didn't resolve a dispute that has been continuing for another three weeks, and the claim that I closed the dispute looks to me like an attempt to confuse the jury. ] had opened the DRN thread on 3 December, complaining about the insertion of the word ] and of the mention of ]. I was not entirely sure beyond the mention of ] what the issues were. There were questions about what the procedure was for handling a ] dispute; I think that Zefr was said to be the one. There was a long question that may have been about whether ] is voluntary; DRN is voluntary. Then Zefr said that the case could be withdrawn because no one else was commenting. The disputants other than Zefr never did say exactly what the article content issues were, perhaps because they didn't want to discuss article content, and were not required to discuss article content. If anyone is implying that I resolved or settled anything, I have no idea what it was. | |||
| ::{{Ping|Adjwilley|Dennis Brown}} I appreciate the moving to ANI, I hadn't noticed it wasn't there in the first place. My apologies; should have paid a bit more attention to the exact noticeboard I was posting. I hope that their final warning, despite their inability to communicate between editors and their insistent reverting of anything I leave on their talk page. I only hope this is a one-time slipup on their behalf, and that the final warning issued by Dennis Brown works out in the end. And I only hope they do not add in the information prior to the episode's completed airing (such as they did at ''General Hospital''). Should the behavior arise again, should I re-open on ANI or report to one of you? ''']''' ] 15:43, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *You can ping either or both of us, with diff linking back. One like this: should be enough to job our memories. If we don't respond in 24 hours (we do have day jobs and such) then you can file again or ask another uninvolved admin. ] - ] 16:32, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| I see that the dispute either was continuing in other forums for three weeks, or has reopened. I see that ] edit-warred to prevent an RFC from running, making vague but noisy statements about ]. I don't know who is said to be working for Unilever or for anyone else. It is clear that this dispute is longer on antagonism than on clarity. ] (]) 22:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :{{Ping|Dennis Brown}} Excellent. Again, thank you to both you and Adjwilley for your assistance on this issue, as we all strive to keep with the goals of Misplaced Pages. (: ''']''' ] 16:46, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :{{re|Robert McClenon}}, I pinged you, because I felt you'd be a good commentator to evaluate whether you also felt I was "not cooperative" in the process as Zefr says. I tried to participate, but it got closed shortly after I posted a comment in it. ] (]) 22:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ==Active sockpuppetry, ] and ] violations by {{u|LORT44125}}== | |||
| ::Was that purposely mis-stated to be provocative and mislead the discussion here? | |||
| {{archive top|Nothing more to add here, take the rest to SPI (non-admin closure) ] (] / ]) 18:49, 28 June 2015 (UTC)}} | |||
| ::I said you were <u>non-collaborative</u>, which describes your behavior throughout your editing history on the Breyers article, its talk page, and the DRN. You refused collaboration at DRN, which is the whole point of the process. DRN FAQ: ''"refusing participation can be perceived as a refusal to collaborate, and is not conducive to consensus-building."'' | |||
| {{u|Road8985}} appeared over a week ago, making pointy edits to the Russian Othodox church article which were reverted by other users and attempts to reason with the editor at ] proved futile, as they became hostile and aggressive, tossing out against anyone that disagreed with them until they were blocked on ] grounds. LORT44125 then appeared, writing in exactly the same stilted English, using the same phrases and defending the other edits and claiming simply to be "a friend" of Road8985. Other editors in the talk section voiced the suspicion that neither may be a new account. On my looking at their edits, it became clear that it was a blocked sockmaster, {{u|Need1521}}, back in another guise. Having attempted to reason with that editor in the past and seen numerous other editors and admins attempt to do so and seen the newest account attempts at discussion on their own talk, I believe discussion with them to be futile as they lack the spirit of collaboration necessary. I have filed a sockpuppet report ] detailing the similarities, however, LORT44125 is now , still adding their own POV based on their own interpretations of sources and that disruption needs to stop. ] (]) 16:13, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::You were notified about the , and you posted a general notice about it on the , so you were aware of the process, but ignored it. Meanwhile, your editing history over 6-12 Dec shows dozens of edits, | |||
| ::You made no attempt to collaborate at DRN, posting only one off-topic | |||
| ::I requested closure of the DRN on 12 Dec due to non-participation by you and the others. On 13 Dec, . cc: {{u|Robert McClenon}}. ] (]) 00:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ====A Possibly Requested Detail==== | |||
| Okay. If the question is specifically whether ] was uncooperative at ], then I can state that they were not uncooperative and did not obstruct or disrupt DRN. Graywalls took very little part in the DRN proceeding before I closed it. They were not required to take part, although they say that they would have made a statement if the case had stayed open a little longer. The antagonism that I saw was between ] and ], and I collapsed an exchange between them. I did not read what I am told were long previous discussions, because I expect the disputants at DRN to begin by telling me concisely what each of them wants to change in the article (or what they want to leave the same that another editor wants to change). Graywalls was not uncooperative at DRN. | |||
| ] (]) 00:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Okay. ] is making a slightly different statement, that ] did not ] at DRN. That is correct. And I noted above that their mention that I had closed the dispute depended on what was meant by the "dispute". and looked like an attempt to confuse the jury. ] (]) 03:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::@] Zefr did not use the word uncooperative although did say uncollaborative and I used the two interchangeably in my ping. I did participate in it ]. I haven't participated in DRN until that point, so I wasn't really sure how it worked. ] (]) 13:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===The actual content that led to this dispute=== | |||
| Two month ago, ] included this shockingly bad content: {{tpq|As of 2014, some flavors of Breyer's ice cream contains propylene glycol as an additive. Propylene glycol is a chemical commonly used in a car antifreeze and it is clear fluid made by "treating propylene with chlorinated water to form the chlorohydrin, which is then converted to the glycol, an alcohol, by treating it with a sodium carbonate solution." Propylene glycol is formulated into Breyer's fat-free and Carb Smart ice cream to make it easier to scoop.}} The notion that an article about an ice cream company should include a detailed description of how a ] food additive is manufactured is bizarre enough, as is the cherrypicked and glaringly misleading assertion about "antifreeze", but the reference used to support the Breyers claim was a book called ''Eat It to Beat It!: Banish Belly Fat-and Take Back Your Health-While Eating the Brand-Name Foods You Love!'' written by a quack/crank diet profiteer named David Zinczenko. I invite any editor to take a search engine look at Zinczenko's body of work, and come away with the conclusion that his writings are anything other than fringe and unreliable. Despite the glaringly obviously non-neutral and tendentious problems with this shockingly bad content, editors including most prominently {{u|Graywalls}} and {{u|Axad12}} dug in their heels, fighting a reargard action for nearly two months, determined to make this mundane routine ice cream company look as bad as possible. Their self-justification seems to be that big bad corporations have ''no right whatsover'' to try to remove atrociously bad content about their products from Misplaced Pages, and that any editor who tries to assist the evil corporation is also evil by association. I am not an advocate for corporations ''per se'', but I am an advocate for corporations being treated ] like all other topics, rather with disdain and contempt, which was the case here, as I see it. I do not know what the best outcome is here, but I certainly encourage these two editors to refrain from any other unjustified and poorly referenced anti-corporate diatribes that go on for months on end. ] (]) 07:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :A striking and shocking aspect of this sordid situation is that two editors, {{u|Graywalls}} and {{u|Axad12}} were able to concoct a false "consensus" supporting various versions of this garbage content. And then when another editor tried to start a RFC about the appallingly bad content, {{u|Axad12}} tried over and over and over again to stop the RFC and defend the atrocious content rather than correcting it, aided and abetted by {{u|Graywalls}}. When the RFC actually went live, it soon became clear that many editors agreed that the content these two editors advocated for was utterly inappropriate. ] (]) 08:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Cullen, | |||
| :As per my comments above, my motivation was simply in reflecting the consensus on the talk page at the time. I did not {{tq|concoct}} that consensus, at least 5 users other than me were against excluding the material. | |||
| :I have never had any particularly strong opinion one way or the other on the content issue and I try as best as I can not to get involved in content disputes. I have not {{tq|dug in heels}} or attempted to promote any kind of fringe opinion and nor have I engaged in {{tq|anti-corporate diatribes that go on for months on end}}. | |||
| :Similarly I do not hold the view that {{tq|any editor who tries to assist the evil corporation is also evil by association}}, or any opinion even vaguely resembling that view. On the contrary, I have often implemented COI edit requests on behalf of corporations or have pointed out to corporate employees how such requests would need to be amended to conform with sourcing or other requirements. Repeatedly engaging in that activity would presumably make me very {{tq|evil}} indeed, in my own eyes, if I held the view that you attribute to me. | |||
| :I reverted the Breyer edits in good faith because there was no consensus in favour of them. If I was incorrect on a point of policy in that regard then fair enough, however please do not attempt to attribute to me sentiments which I do not harbour. | |||
| :Also, I did not attempt to stop the RfC {{tq|over and over and over again}}. I removed the tag twice, then requested guidance from administrators and immediately replaced the tag when requested to do so. The tag was removed, in all, for a matter of minutes and had no meaningful impact on the progress of the RfC. I have accepted elsewhere that I now appreciate that the basis on which I removed the tag was inappropriate. I have also stated that {{tq|From my standpoint wasn't a process that I was familiar with - but I can see from the many excellent contributions here that this is the best way of resolving content disputes}}. I have also stated that I welcome and support the new consensus. ] (]) 08:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Try as you will to justify your participation in this debacle , {{u|Axad12}}, but any uninvolved editor can review the edit histories and see that you fought very hard, over and over again for months, to keep garbage content in the encyclopedia just to stick it to a corporation that you obviously dislike because they tried to correct egregious errors about their products. ] (]) 08:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Can you provide a diff there to indicate that I {{tq|obviously dislike}} Breyers or (their parent company) Unilever, or indeed that I consider either to be {{tq|evil}}? | |||
| :::To the best of my recollection, I've only ever made 3 mainspace edits to the Breyers article - each time on the stated basis in the edit summary that the edit I was reverting was contrary to consensus. | |||
| :::I've re-read the extensive talk page discussions in recent days and I can only see that I ever commented on the COI angle and the nature of the consensus. Those comments were based on my understanding of policy at the time. I do not see {{tq|anti-corporate diatribes}} or evidence that I {{tq|obviously dislike}} Breyers or Unilever. | |||
| :::Indeed, I do not hold any particularly strong views on Breyers, Unilever or any other corporations. ] (]) 09:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::As I said, {{u|Axad12}}, all any uninvolved editor needs to do is review your 37 edits to ] to see how determined you have been over the last two months to maintain various versions of this biased non-neutral content, and how enthusiastic you have been in denouncing the various editors who have been calling for neutrality. Your consistent theme has been that a corporation does not deserve neutrality, because a bogus consensus has been conjured up. ] (]) 09:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::My activity on that talk page has solely been in relation to pointing out what I felt (rightly or wrongly) was a valid COI concern and observing that from Aug to Dec there has never been a consensus in favour of exclusion. | |||
| :::::Anything beyond that is simply you attributing motives that do not exist. | |||
| :::::I have never stated or implied that {{tq|a corporation does not deserve neutrality}} and nor do I hold such a view. | |||
| :::::I happily admit that I'm quite animated and enthusiastic about COI issues and reverting edits which appear to be contrary to consensus. With the benefit of hindsight probably I should have let go of those issues at an earlier stage and vacated the field for those who actually had an appetite to argue on content grounds. | |||
| :::::I'd also point out that for a significant part of the last 2 months I had actually unsubscribed from the relevant talkpage threads and only ended up getting involved again due to being summoned to the Dispute Resolution thread. If I had been {{tq|determined over the last two months to maintain various versions of biased non-neutral content}} then hopefully it stands to reason that I would not have unsubscribed in that way - thus resulting in a situation where I was actually completely unaware of much of the talkpage and mainspace activity over the period that you refer to. ] (]) 10:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I find the defense of your actions very weak. You've said several times that your {{tq|motivation was simply in reflecting the consensus on the talk page at the time}}. You are also obligated to ''actually'' look at the disputed content and the sources supporting it. Why didn't you do that? Why were you unable to see what multiple editors in the RfC are commenting about? You shouldn't just blindly revert content like that, without taking a look for yourself to see if the complaint about the disputed content has any merit, like it being reliably sourced and due for inclusion.]] 10:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::That's a very fair question. | |||
| :::::::The answer is that I was inclined to believe the opinions of editors much more experienced than myself who were against exclusion, particularly the editor who turned down the original COI edit request (whose work on COI edit requests I have the greatest of respect for). | |||
| :::::::User Whatamidoing has already pointed out above that my error lay in accepting those users' opinions. I agree with Whatamidoing's observation there. | |||
| :::::::I can only say that what I did was done in good faith based on my understanding of policy at the time. I now know where I erred (in several different ways) and I am glad to have received instruction in that regard. | |||
| :::::::However, I really cannot accept the repeated suggestion that I vindictively masterminded a long anti-corporate campaign to keep bad material in an article. That suggestion is fundamentally not true. ] (]) 10:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Policy at the time, and the policy now, as it always has been, when you make an edit, you are responsible for that edit. So by reverting the content back into the article, you were then responsible for that edit, and also partly to blame for this garbage content being kept in the article when it clearly shouldn't have been.]] 11:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Yes, I entirely accept that. | |||
| :::::::::For clarity, when I said {{tq|my understanding of policy at the time}} I meant ''my understanding of policy'' at the time - I wasn't trying to suggest that the policy has changed since I made those edits. | |||
| :::::::::What I am saying is that those edits were not made with malice, they were made because I accepted the opinions of other users more experienced than myself, opinions which I now know that I ought to have questioned. ] (]) 11:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::You demonstrated poor judgement. Will you stay away from that article? — ] (]) 11:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::As I said earlier in this thread, I am 100% supportive of the new consensus in favour of excluding the previously disputed material. | |||
| :::::::::::Virtually all of my time on Misplaced Pages is spent at COIN and dealing with COI edit requests. I'm not the sort of user who spends their time edit warring over POV fringe material and generally being disruptive. | |||
| :::::::::::So, the last thing I would ever do is attempt to reinstall material where a very robust consensus at RfC has indicated that it should be excluded. | |||
| :::::::::::I would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that I can be trusted in that regard. ] (]) 12:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::Judgement isn't about following consensus, it’s about making considered decisions. — ] (]) 14:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I've been expecting something to happen around ], whom I ran into several months ago during a ]. What I noticed back in October was that Axad12 seemed to be ''clerking the noticeboard'', making prosecutorial noises, and sometimes unsupported accusations (ex: {{tq|...the existence of COI seems quite clear...}} , {{tq|...in relation to your undeclared conflict of interest...}} , {{tq|As I said, the fact that there was a significant undeclared conflict of interest in relation to editing on Paralympic Australia-related articles was demonstrated some years ago.}} ) towards what they thought of as COI editors (this was about whether ] had failed to adequately announce their conflict with Paralympic Australia, where they've been openly helping as a volunteer on our community's behalf for many years, and after they had just made an ]). I often find such clerking of noticeboards by relatively unseasoned users to be troublesome; Axad12 has 490 edits at COIN, about 12% of their total 3801 edits (but about a third of the roughly 1500 edits total on COIN since September). If you use a hammer all day, you might begin to think that all objects are potentially nails. ] (]) 12:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Rereading the discussion this morning 90 days later, it reads worse than I made it sound above. An uninvolved admin and chastised Axad12 in that close. The OP asked the thread closure be reversed, so the close comments were moved down to the end of the thread. ] (]) 14:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I think it would be a good idea for {{u|Axad12}} to take a break from ] and associated matters and concentrate on other areas of Misplaced Pages for a few months. I was going to use a cliché here, but I see BusterD's already used it in the last sentence of the post before last, so won't. ] (]) 14:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Only so many ways to screw in a lightbulb. ] (]) 15:06, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::In fairness, the overwhelming majority of my posts at COIN over the last year or so have been simple helpful contributions. The two matters discussed above were atypical and in both cases I've taken on board the advice I was given. | |||
| :::::If (per the figures above) I've been making about a third of all the contributions at COIN over that period then my behaviour would have been reported here long ago if I was either disruptive or incompetent. | |||
| :::::That said, I won't deny that I've been seriously considering retiring from Misplaced Pages over the last two months. The only reason I've not done so is because other users have specifically encouraged me to carry on because they value my work at COIN and on COI issues generally. | |||
| :::::All I can say is that what I have done, I have done in good faith and when I have occasionally erred I have learned lessons. I have acknowledged above that I've made mistakes and I'm grateful to those who have given me advice. ] (]) 15:34, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::You've been reported here now. Over stuff that's current, and applicable. In that matter, you seemed to believe your expertise in COI matters allows you to decide what constitutes a valid RFC. That seems like a problem to me. I'm providing evidence on related behavioral matters. Having made one third of all recent edits on a noticeboard ''is not the high achievement you might think it is''. Stay or retire, but learn to better assume good faith here, even when dealing with COI contributors. Most accounts are fine. You've been working in a narrow area where you deal with many bad faith users. I can understand why that might wear on any editor. The proof will be if you can incorporate these valid complaints into your future action. ] (]) 16:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ==Complaint against ]== | |||
| * ] must be stoped (vandalism - war of edits and slander). He got the . ] (]) 16:34, 27 June 2015 (UTC). | |||
| {{Notice|1=See ] below. |heading=This complaint has been withdrawn.}} | |||
| <s> Good Morning, | |||
| I am writing to formally lodge a complaint against ] for repeated violations of Misplaced Pages's policies on personal attacks (]) and casting aspersions (]) during a . | |||
| *LORT44125 blocked as an obvious sock of Road8985. Tying back to Need1521 is impossible with CU and difficult with behavior alone, given the small number of edits all these accounts have produced, but not necessary anyway. For the record, you normally want to report socks to ] or use the template built into the Twinkle interface when you are at their user page. ] - ] 16:46, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Throughout the interaction, GiantSnowman has engaged in behavior that appears to contravene Misplaced Pages's behavioral guidelines, including but not limited to: | |||
| :Thanks {{u|Dennis Brown|Dennis}}. I've already filed an SPI and it's linked above. Usually I'd wait for the outcome of that, but the SPI was filed 2 days ago and the LORT account was involved in fresh disruption so ANI was the only route, given the account's refusal to engage on their talk page. ] (]) 21:47, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| '''Casting aspersions without evidence:''' | |||
| ::Based on links provided at the end of the ], there is actually a larger issue here of a longer sock farm dating back to at least September 2011 and also involving Russian Misplaced Pages. I'm horrified that this nonsense has been going on so long. ] (]) 22:50, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * GiantSnowman repeatedly accused me of engaging in disruptive behavior, suggesting ulterior motives without providing any verifiable evidence. | |||
| :::No admin or CU has come in on that one yet, but it may very well be large. That is why SPI is the best place for sockpuppet issues. We can do quick and dirty blocks for obvious cases, like I did here, but there, they dig deeper than we can in this environment. ] - ] 22:54, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * For instance, accusations of using ] to generate responses without concrete proof. | |||
| ::::Understood and I agree. In this case a quick block was needed, as the disruption was ongoing, but the larger issue will hopefully be sorted at SPI. We can close this section. ] (]) 23:19, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * Statements like “You are a liar and cannot be trusted” and other similar assertions lack civility and violate the principle of ]. | |||
| {{archive bottom}} | |||
| '''Aggressive tone and unwarranted accusations:''' | |||
| == Cleanup after a user needed == | |||
| * The user's tone throughout the discussion has been hostile, escalating to direct personal attacks: | |||
| * Referring to me as a “liar” multiple times. | |||
| * Suggesting that I have been “deliberately disruptive” without presenting any factual basis. | |||
| '''Violation of ] and ]:''' | |||
| {{userlinks|Ranagolam}} | |||
| * Misplaced Pages encourages editors to respond constructively to newcomers' efforts. However, GiantSnowman’s behavior has been dismissive and accusatory, discouraging participation and creating a hostile editing environment. | |||
| As an administrator, GiantSnowman is expected to set an example by adhering to Misplaced Pages's behavioral policies and fostering a collaborative environment. However, their actions in this instance fall far short of the standards expected of administrators, which further exacerbates the seriousness of this issue. | |||
| After creating a blank article called "Deleted this article" and repeatedly contesting its deletion, Ranagolam has blanked another user's page and moved it to two different locations. I don't have the permission to move it back. ] (]) 20:26, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *I'll take care of it. ] (]) 20:33, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| I didn't see anything really blockable, just strange, so I just deleted the whole mess. The user page he blanked was basically an inappropriate userspace bio that hadn't been written by the user anyway. M's original userpage, the only real user involved here besides Rangolam, was deleted at user request in 2009. ] (]) 20:37, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :Thanks. I'd've just dismissed it as a user not knowing what they're doing, but the page creation has me leaving their contributions page open in another tab. ] (]) 20:43, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Why is it even possible for anyone to create a blank page? There's no possible good reason to create a page with nothing on it at all. ] (]) 20:48, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::I could see it being useful outside of article space (someone wants to get rid of their redlink username, but not actually wanting a userpage), but it would make some sense to have a filter preventing blank articles. ] (]) 20:56, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| I understand that discussions can sometimes be contentious, but I believe there is no justification for violating ] or ]. I respectfully request that administrators review the linked discussion and take appropriate action to address this behavior. | |||
| ==Personal attack by {{u|Singora}} == | |||
| {{Archive top|reason={{noping|Singora}} has been stripped of his/her ] for 72 hours by {{U|Dennis Brown}}, let's hope it stays that way. {{nac}} '''] <sup>]</sup>''' 16:15, 28 June 2015 (UTC)}} | |||
| Can someone please do something about the ongoing harassment of me. I'm sick to the back teeth of this and it has now gone on for two weeks. Furthermore, {{u|Chillum}}, whose talk page has been instrumental in this harassment, from some creature called {{u|Singora}}. Both Chillum, as an involved party, and Singora, as the author of such comments, have been notified. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px Black;">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 20:53, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *I just hit him with a 72 hour block, knowing comfortably that it was deserved solely for this edit . If other admin want to take a look at the total circumstances and feel that an adjustment is needed, no prior permission is required. ] - ] 21:00, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Many thanks Dennis, much appreciated. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px Black;">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 21:01, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::No idea about any ongoing harassment, but that linked comment is as severe and calculated a personal attack as I've seen in some while. 72 hours is the least he should expect. ] (]) 21:11, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| If any additional information or clarification is needed, I am happy to provide it. My intent is to ensure a respectful and collaborative editing environment for all Misplaced Pages contributors. | |||
| I think the block was a good move, I was on my way to do the same thing. People have been using my talk page for general nastiness a little too much lately. This whole "call them as I see them" nonsense is a contagious and lame excuse for childish name calling. I would not tolerate even a drive by vandal being talked to that way, Cassianto certainly does not deserve it. The user could have made a cogent and compelling argument without resorting to personal attacks. ] 21:13, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :An indef of that Singora would be well-justified. And wasn't some drive-by making the same obscene slam recently? Coincidence? Or the same guy? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 22:46, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Good point, I hadn't thought of that. I would wager that they are the same specimen. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px Black;">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 22:49, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Thank you for your time and consideration. </s> | |||
| ::My first instinct was that this was a drive by troll and to indef, but then I saw they had over 500 edits and had been here over a year. I have not looked at their contributions enough to determine if they are here to make an encyclopedia or not. I would hesitate to block indef if there are any significant contributions. After all if we indefed people for isolated(I think) incidences of name calling this thread would be a bit shorter. I probably would have given a 2 week block, but I think the block given is well within the realm of reason. ] 22:52, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ] • ] ⚽ 12:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Their contributions haven't exactly set the world of Misplaced Pages on flames, let me tell you. They worked on ] which didn't even cut it as a GA, let alone an FA, and produced a load of unhelpful and dubious comments at the recent FAC of ]. I can't quite put my finger on it, but I'm sure I've come across them before somewhere. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px Black;">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 23:05, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::<s>{{ec}} SN: {{u|Cassianto}}, the title of this thread made it sound as though ''you'' were the one being reported for harassment. It probably would have been better if you'd left your name out of the title; when I read the first post, I initially was like, "He's reporting ''himself''?" (And my apologies if you're not a "he".) '''<span style="color:red;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:green;">]</span></sup></small> 23:25, 27 June 2015 (UTC)</s> <small>Dealt with. '''<span style="color:red;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:green;">]</span></sup></small> 03:23, 28 June 2015 (UTC)</small> | |||
| ::::::It has been harassment as it has been going on for two weeks now. However, this was more about the PA on Chillum's page which has kindly been dealt with. I have adjusted the title of this thread having seen its ambiguity. Thanks. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px Black;">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 23:48, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::If it continues, and it is part of a pattern, by all means come back with a list. My 72 hour block was done to be as generous as I possibly could justify, as he hadn't been blocked before and had a little time under his belt. If it happens again any time soon and you can show a pattern, he won't get the same benefit of the doubt. ] - ] 00:18, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Many thanks. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px Black;">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 06:59, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{Archive bottom}} | |||
| :The discussion I raised was at ], now closed. I raised concerns about this editor, who has (in brief) - undertake botched and inappropriate RM closures; re-factored other editor's talk page posts; randomly nominated another user with whom they have never interacted before for RFA; and messing with my user space draft. None of that was the conduct of a new editor here to learn the ropes, and I wanted a second pair of eyes. | |||
| == The behaviour of Fayenatic london at Selmelier == | |||
| :In the course of that discussion, it became highly suspect to multiple users that this user has been editing with LLM. They denied using Chat GPT and, when questioned further, refused to answer. That is why I said this user is a liar and cannot be trusted, and I stand by that assertion. ]] 12:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{Archive top|reason=Debate over the use of PC to prolong PROD timestamps done. {{ping|79.97.226.247}}: unrelated to this debate, but still helpful in future patrolling/checking, you are allowed to boldly blank and ] articles in uncontroversial circumstances, provided that you provide a rationale in your summary. If it is disputed, nominate it at ], then suggest the possibility of redirection. {{nac}} '''] <sup>]</sup>''' 16:30, 28 June 2015 (UTC)}} | |||
| ::Pinging other editors who were involved in that ANI discussion or have posted concerns/advice on this user's talk page - {{ping|Liz|voorts|Folly Mox|Tiggerjay|Extraordinary Writ|Tarlby|The Bushranger|Thebiguglyalien|Cyberdog958}} - think that is everyone, apologies if not. ]] 12:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I left a prod at ]. The 7 day period expired, and Fayenatic reset the time on the basis that the creator had not been notified. I pointed out that per ] notifying the creator was not required, and that the creator ]. Fayenatic then reverted to their preferred version, and used their privileges to block non-autoconfirmed users (obviously targeting me exclusively, as nobody else has edited the article in a year and a half) from the article. ] (]) 22:09, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thank you for your speedy response. Now let other admins add their point of view. ] • ] ⚽ 12:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Given the closed section above - which was closed for a very good reason - I'd suggest that coming back to this page to complain and using an LLM to do it is a ''spectacularly'' bad idea. The community only has limited patience when dealing with editors who are causing timesinks for other edits, and I suspect that the section above was your limit. ] 12:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:FTR a fellow administrator encouraged me to launch a complaint if I felt I was treated unfairly and told me what grounds I have to complain. ] • ] ⚽ 12:14, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::] is worth reviewing. It may already be too late for you to withdraw your complaint, but it's probably worth an attempt. --] (]) 12:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :{{ec}}Please, any passing uninvolved admin, block the OP now. Not least for using an LLM to generate a complaint that someone accused them of using ] to generate responses. Enough of our time has been wasted. ] (]) 12:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Again, this is mere conjecture. ] • ] ⚽ 12:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Continuing to deny the obvious - especially when Tarlby ran your posts through multiple LLM checkers - is really not helping your case. For me, it shows you are not here in good faith and that you absolutely cannot be trusted. ]] 12:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::No, it's called people have eyes. Using LLMs this way is highly disrespectful and frankly disruptive. Boomerang block for ] seems appropriate. ] (]) 12:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::<small>(Responding to the ping, invovled)</small> My perspective regarding LLM has been it really doesn't matter (to me) if you're using various technology tools constructively, such as a spell checker or grammar checker might have been viewed two decades ago. ''However, what really matter is how those tools are used and being responsible for how they're used''. This editor has been evasive in their conversations and generally disruptive demonstrating ] behavior by very peculiar / suspicious ] I've only seen in clear LLM cases. Yet, there is no point in bludgeoning to what degree, if any, an LLM is playing here, but because this is a clear example of ] and failure to follow ] despite many attempts to bring them to this users attention. ] ] 17:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::+1 to Phil Bridger. What struck me in the prior thread, over and over again, was how repeatedly evasive he was. "I have repeatedly denied using ChatGPT..." "I never made any comment about LLMs in general." "I have no explanation." "Again, that's conjecture. I just choose my words very carefully." "Which AI detectors are you using?" "The definition of LLM is somewhat ambiguous so I wouldn't want to mislead you by answering definitively." And so on, and so on, and so on. Footballnerd2007 has been given chance after chance to answer plainly, without Wikilawyering or weasel-wording, and has instead stuck to the tactic of deflect, deflect, deflect. I don't know where Footballnerd2007 got the notion that the Fifth Amendment was the law of the land on Misplaced Pages, and that no boomerang can touch him as long as he admits to nothing. Let's just disabuse him of the notion. ] 12:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Retaliatory BS; this should be closed immediately. ] ] 12:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === CBAN proposal === | |||
| *Stretching the PROD out seems unnecessarily bureaucratic, I admit, but isn't the biggest issue. Notification isn't required but it is strongly preferred most of the time. In this case, the editor hasn't edited in 3.5 years so it borders on overkill to force the issue. At first glance, it looks like {{u|Fayenatic london}} got into an edit war with this IP over the time stamp (purely editor actions), then used PC to protect the article (admin action), seemingly to give himself an advantage. In the least, this is unusual, and under ], requires explanation here. ] - ] 22:18, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * I propose a ''']''' for Footballnerd2007, appealable no sooner than six months from now (and then once per year thereafter), alongside a ban on using LLM's which would remain in effect until specifically contested. At the time of writing, Footballnerd2007 has only 142 edits, a ''significant'' number of which are right here at WP:ANI. They are clearly a massive ] time sink. I urged Footballnerd2007 to withdraw this complaint and warned about ] and that clearly didn't land. I think it's time for everyone else to get back to regular editing. --] (]) 12:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*'''Support''', obviously. The more they have responded, the stronger my concerns have grown. ]] 12:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:I have decided to withdraw my complaint with immediate effect in order to avoid the loss of my editing privileges. I'm going to write a long piece (without using LLM) explaining my actions later when I have time. I'm sorry for any disruption caused, I have always acted in good faith. ] • ] ⚽ 13:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::Demonstrably not, when you've been dodging all along the question of whether you've been using LLMs, and only now -- when the tide is running against you -- stating that at last you'll respond at length without? ] 13:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::FN2007 claims to be a new editor, and to have spent a significant amount of time reading Misplaced Pages policies/guidelines etc. If so, they will have known not to re-factor other user's talk page posts, but they did that anyway. That cannot be good faith editing. ]] 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::I'll respond to this in depth later today. ] • ] ⚽ 13:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::I concede that I've been backed into a corner and now I need to do the right thing, stop with the defensive act and own up to my mistakes which I'll do in my statement later this afternoon. ] • ] ⚽ 13:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::So you only need to so the right thing after being backed into a corner? I think we can do without such editors. ] (]) 13:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::I had my legal head on with the philosophy "defend until you can no more" - I now concede on reflection this is not appropriate for Misplaced Pages and that my actions were not the right way to go and for that I will take full responsibility in my statement. ] • ] ⚽ 13:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::It's too late to withdraw now. You have to take responsibility for your behaviour. ] (]) 13:36, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*{{ec}}<s>'''Support'''</s> - on top of what's been posted on this thread, FN2007 has ] by archiving without a link to the archive on the fresh talk page, without responding to ]. They also ] to add things they didn't say when closing a RM discussion, and haven't responded ]. These things alongside their LLM use (and subsequent wikilawyering "technically I only said I didn't use ''ChatGPT''" responses), refusal to listen to good advice, and everything else in this topic, I think a community ban would be a good idea. ] ] 13:21, 5 January 2025 (UTC) ''Update'' - striking support for cban, I think footballnerd's recent responses and CNC's offer of mentorship indicate that we may be able to avoid it. ] ] 14:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:The archiving of talk page was an attempt to "wipe the slate clean" and move on, I didn't see how I could reply to the advice constructively. As for the wikilawyering, again I concede that I was out of order and that I did use AI assistance to write my complaint which was unwise. I do however, maintain that I did not lie as my comments about using ChatGPT were accurate, however this was using technicalities and involved me being rather economical with the truth. ] • ] ⚽ 13:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::You could have simply said "thank you Liz for the advice". And if you 'wanted to wipe the slate clean', why did you start this new thread? ]] 14:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::I will go back and thank her for that. Because I had been advised that your actions could have violated WP policy and thought it would be a good way to deflect the blame, in heinsight it was absolutely the wrong course of action. I would like to draw a line under this whole sorry situation and move on with the reason that I joined once my statement has been published and the subsequent discussion has concluded. ] • ] ⚽ 14:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:(another {{ec}} To clarify, I don't think Footballnerd is doing anything malicious or deliberately trying to time-waste. I think they are a misguided new bold editor who unfortunately doesn't listen to advice and is stubborn to self-reflect. If this cban goes ahead I urge them to appeal in 6 months with a better understanding of how wikipedia works, with a more cautious editing style and more acceptance of community opinions. ] ] 13:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::I am not being malicious, there was only one motivation for my actions - wanting to help. | |||
| *:*::My comments on this and the above thread have been ill judged. | |||
| *:*::As for the ban, I'd like to ask that I be spared at this moment in time in view of my above comments and the concession statement that I will be posting when I return home. ] • ] ⚽ 14:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::You seem to be spending a lot of time/making a lot of posts saying "full statement to come!", rather than actually making that statement... ]] 14:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::Because I'm posting from my phone and I'm not at home. When I return to my PC later today I'll make the statement. ] • ] ⚽ 14:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*<del>Support CBAN.</del> Using a chatbot to generate discussion then denying it when called out is already deeply contemptuous. Turning around and filing a chatbot generated revenge report for people not believing your lies about not using a chatbot? Words fail. ] (]) 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC) {{small|{{ins|edited 12:11, 6 January 2025 (UTC); see below.}}}} | |||
| *:*:FTR I didn't use a chatbot form of AI assistance and never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT but I admit that I was somewhat economical with the truth and am guilty of wikilawyering - overlap of my professional life. ] • ] ⚽ 14:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::You are still not clearly and unequivocally admitting what you did. ]] 14:03, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::What you want me to admit? I admitted using AI but not ChatGPT and tried to use wikilawyering to get away from this. ] • ] ⚽ 14:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::Unless I missed something, that was your first clear admission of using AI. Your earlier comment of "I didn't use a chatbot form of AI assistance and never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT" is not the same. ]] 14:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::Sorry I should have been clearer. I didn't use a Chatbot form of AI nor did I use ChatGPT but I did use AI assistance (which I didn't deny). So to be unequivocally clear - I never lied but was economical with the truth, I am guilty of 'wikilawyering' and I did deploy the assistance of Artificial Intelligence on a handful of occasion. ] • ] ⚽ 14:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::Thank you - but you repeatedly failed to own up to using AI when questioned on it, and your latter responses here do nothing to deal with my personal concerns. ]] 14:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::I admit that I did, I just saw the line of "I didn't use ChatGPT" as an easy 'get out of jail card'. ] • ] ⚽ 14:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::While that might be technically accurate when you answered that you did not use Chat-GPT, you were intentionally being deceptive in your answers multiple times. It might be slightly different if you were asked ''specifically about Chat-GPT'', however multiple times you were ''specifically asked about the broad term of LLM''. Your current claim of, {{tq|never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT}}, falls on deaf ears because it is clear that you were dodging the questions, and indeed intentionally addressed only Chat-GPT for the purpose of deception instead of honesty. ] ] 17:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::'''Soft-struck''' prior comment because now I see you have admitted to such activity prior to my comment above. ] ] 05:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:{{a note}} for ], just to inform you there is a ] that you may not have seen. I was about to send generic pings to !voters of this section, but it appears all other editors are aware of this proposal already (or voted afterwards at least). This isn't intended to influence your decision, only to provide you updated information. ] (]) 23:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::{{rtp}} Withdrawing support for CBAN in light of ] combined with acceptance of mentorship by {{u|CommunityNotesContributor}} (thanks for the ping: I've been offwiki).{{pb}}{{Ping|Footballnerd2007}} I'm sure the point has got across, but please respect your colleagues here. Using an LLM (of any brand) in discussions is disrespectful of our time; assuming we won't notice is disrespectful of our competence. Please engage with the spirit of other people's communications, rather than with the precise words chosen. Misplaced Pages is very much unlike a courtroom: we're here to work together on a shared project, not to win arguments against each other. I look forward to your earnest acculturation. ] (]) 12:11, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *<s>'''Support''' as this behavior is clearly ]. </s>] (]) 15:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' CBAN as this editor has caused a monumental waste of the volunteer time of other editors, which is our most precious commodity. This is an encyclopedia, not a robot debating society. ] (]) 18:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. First choice would be an indefinite block. Despite the user's sudden acts of contrition, I don't trust them. I don't see them as an asset to the project. As for their recent statement that some think is AI-generated, my ''guess'' is it's a mixture, maybe we should call it AI-assisted. However, I wouldn't support an indefinite block if it were just that. What preceded the complaint by GS and their conduct at ANI was egregiously disruptive.--] (]) 18:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' - I say give them some rope. There is good discussion going on below, and I don't think anything is gained by blocking an editor who does at times add value. We can always revisit this later - and presumably the action would then be quick and obvious. BTW, I thought we all used AI to some extent - certainly when I misspell words like "certainyl" I then accept the AI in chrome changing the spelling. Or even improving the grammar if I turn on those options. Also ]'s numerous draft articles in his userspace always confounds me. I've asked them before to write these articles in draft-space where there can be a collaborative effort, rather than their userspace where they won't let anyone else edit. ] (]) 00:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:Haven't voted in this proposal yet, am abstaining for now per trying to avoid advocacy as potential mentor. The two points I will however question is: would a CBAN solve these issues or postpone them until a later date? Would a 1–2 month mentorship more likely bring about the results of reform or failure much sooner? If we want to talk about ] as we have do so, it might be worth ] the time wasted in not mentoring a newish editor into the folds of the encyclopedia. ] (]) 00:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Oppose:''' CommunityNotesContributor has offered to mentor him, and the mentoring conditions have been accepted. Let's see what comes of that, and we can always revisit the subject of a ban after CNC reports back. ] 04:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Strong oppose''' - A mentor has been provided. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 18:08, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support mentorship''' offered below by CNC, but I still have significant concerns, which I expressed after FBN's response below. ] ] 18:29, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' as too soon. An alternative for mentoring was proffered instead.]] 19:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===MENTOR proposal=== | |||
| :], you apparently didn't see the bright orange bar saying you need to alert ] about this discussion so I posted one on your behalf. You need to disclose to the editor that you've brought a complaint to a noticeboard. <font face="Papyrus" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 22:21, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{quote|] commitments to uphold by ] for a suggested one–two month period. Mentor: ]. | |||
| # Abide by all policies and guidelines and ] to advise given to you by other editors. | |||
| *FL could have removed the prod altogether (anyone can). Instead he decided to allow another week, which seems reasonable, and harmless. You shouldn't be repeatedly reverting to the old timestamp. I agree with Dennis that it would have been better for FL to ask another admin to review and install pending changes if needed, instead of doing it himself. Processing prod's could maybe be considered an admin action, but it's borderline. The best solution, of course, is for you (IP) to agree to either (1) let the prod run 7 more days, or (2) start an AFD instead, in which case I'll undo the pending changes. --] (]) 22:24, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| # No page moves (this includes overwriting redirects) without approval from mentor. | |||
| **The part that bothered me was adding PC just to stop this one IP without discussing. In a way it is a slap in the face of IPs to do that, which is why policy says we don't do it for a problem with ONE ip, if this is indeed a problem. Or maybe there is more I just don't know, but it looks odd. ] - ] 22:36, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| # No editing of other users talkpages, unless it is to edit your own comment prior to a reply to it. | |||
| ***I know, Dennis, I'm sort of agreeing. But it's a grey area; if an editor interfered with, say, an admin processing an AFD/CSD tag, we wouldn't allow them to revert it forever. I'm not sure I consider this edit warring over content, it's more like edit warring over how an admin processes a tag intended for admins to process. --] (]) 22:43, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| # No more dishonesty, being evasive, or using AI of any kind in discussions due to laziness. | |||
| ****We're on the same page, it is grey indeed. I think I would have preferred he tried to communicate outside of a summary, at least once. ] - ] 22:48, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| # Avoid commenting on all admin noticeboards (unless summoned). If there is a problem, seek advise from mentor. | |||
| :Hi all. I left an edit summary noting that an inactive editor may have set preference to be emailed about notices on his user talk page, so I thought another 7 days wait was reasonable. Note that I did not protect the page, which would have blocked the IP editor from reverting again. Instead of that, I activated pending changes, which would force an independent admin/reviewer to decide on any further reversion. Note also that having activated pending changes, I did not review the IP's further edits myself. – ] '''<font color="#FF0000">]</font>'''] 23:29, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| # Avoid reverting other editors (either manually, part or in full), unless obvious vandalism. | |||
| ::Pending changes is not meant to be used for this sort of case. PC's for protection against vandalism/ BLP issues/ copyvios. This isn't remotely related to any of those. "Like semi-protection, PC protection should '''never''' be used in genuine content disputes, where there is a risk of placing a particular group of editors at a disadvantage." ] (]) 23:49, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| }} | |||
| :::I don't see this as a content dispute. It's just a judgment call on whether best practice is necessary for this page, resulting in a timing issue over when to let a PROD expire or whether to require a discussion at AfD (or, perhaps now, RfD, since another editor has redirected the page). – ] '''<font color="#FF0000">]</font>'''] 00:13, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| This goes a bit beyond original requirements, and the last two are effectively preventative measures to try and avoid problems arising. An editor involved exclusively on footy articles has limited to no need for involvement in admin noticeboards. ] (]) 17:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*I have to agree with 79.*.*.* on the use of PC here. I don't see a need to labor it, but really, it shouldn't have been used and instead you should have just put a note on the IP's page. This is outside what PC is designed to be used for, which is really not much different than semi-protection in this case. Again, no need make a big deal over one time, but in the future it shouldn't be done that way (per the policy), no matter how effective it is. We are supposed to treat IPs the same as registered users under most circumstances. | |||
| :I agree to those principles and am grateful for the mentorship opportunity! ] • ] ⚽ 17:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*To the IP, I would say you probably shouldn't have edit warred over the timestamp either. The point of PROD isn't to quickly get rid of articles, it is an intentionally slow process for uncontested deletions. Once he changed the time stamp, you might have seen that as a "partial objection, give more time", and knowing he could have simply removed the PROD altogether, you would have been better not fighting over it. As Floq points out above, it is a quasi-admin function to do that. He chose to extend rather than delete outright, and admin technically have the choice of extending, deleting, or removing the PROD altogether. If it is really uncontested, it will eventually get deleted. ] - ] 00:14, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Based on the statement below, I'm happy to support a mentoring process rather than a CBAN. ]] 17:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :**Dennis: fair enough. Although the IP's conduct wasn't vandalism, I viewed it as ], reverting what I still considered a fair decision on use of admin responsibilities (deferring deletion of a page). As for putting a note on the IP's page for all to see, I thought that would have been an escalation, and more inflammatory than using PC to call in the attention of an independent reviewer. However, I've learnt to do that in future, thanks. (I wasn't sure which of us you meant in your 22:48 comment above until you wrote this.) – ] '''<font color="#FF0000">]</font>'''] 07:18, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::Maybe you could edit your !vote above to avoid any confusion for other editors. ] (]) 18:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{Archive bottom}} | |||
| ::::I won't, because I'm also still not 'off' the CBAN. ]] 18:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::My bad, misunderstood your original phrasing. ] (]) 18:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::No bad - let me rephrase if that helps. I am not opposed to mentoring in place of the current CBAN proposal. ]] 18:20, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == |
====Discussion==== | ||
| *Going to chime in here as someone involved in footy related articles. I've reviewed some of the editors contributions, and despite all the issues raised in this topic that are very problematic, the user has seemingly made good contributions to football related articles. I otherwise don't doubt that the user previously edited with an IP (I'm pretty sure which IP this is based on edit histories, but assuming good faith it's not part of this topic and not relevant either so won't bother referencing). I only state this to deflect from suggestions that this editor ''could be'' a sockpuppet, as I strongly don't believe to be the case, instead I suspect about 18 months of low-key editing experience up until now. It's therefore a great shame FN2007 went down this road, even if appears to have now retracted the original complaint. Hopefully they can take on board the requests to avoid controversial edits, especially at other user talkpages and such. I'd like to think this is a case of a user trying to run before they can walk, and if they now pace themselves it could work out in the long-term, but alas the damage has also already been done here it seems. Also as a personal suggestion to the editor, if you're here for football articles, then you should be aiming to stay well away from admin noticeboards as they will rarely ever concern you. Generally there ''should be'' relatively low controversy editing football articles, even if most remain contentious topics as BLP. So if football is your editing remit here, you're doing it very badly by ending up at a noticeboard, equally so by opening this topic, even with your good contributions. I am therefore reluctantly offering to act as a ], if the user can commit to the general policy and guidelines of Misplaced Pages, in the hope of not losing a participant in the under edited area of women's football articles. ] (]) 14:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{Archive top|reason=Moving to ]}} | |||
| *:Thanks for the olive branch. I can confirm that the IP that you've alluded to is mine. I pledge to commit to policy guidelines and am willing to help in the area of women's football. ] • ] ⚽ 14:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Cali11298 is a edit-warrior, personal-attacker, and prolific socker who already has 45 confirmed socks to his name. See ]: he has over 12 SPI cases with multiple sleepers found on almost every case. | |||
| *::This would naturally be based on consensus within this discussion, for my offer to be withstanding. That would include needing to turn the tide away from the CBAN proposal. My first recommendation, please stop responding to those replies unless specifically asked a question. Generally, reduce the number of comments and replies here. Editors are posting their opinion or !vote, but this isn't directed at you, even if it's about you. Secondly, the recommended conditions in my opinion would be 1. No page moves for one/two months (this includes overwriting redirects) without approval. 2. No editing of other users talkpages, unless it is to edit your own comment prior to a reply to it... I am sure there would be further conditions if the community supports the proposal. ] (]) 14:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I would also recommend that CNC be a supervisory advisor for the time being per ], as an alternative to community ban. Of course, this will have to be okay with CNC and Football Nerd. ] (]) 14:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::That's definitely OK with me. ] • ] ⚽ 14:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::Mainly just everyone else at this point it seems. ] (]) 14:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::Should I ping? ] (]) 14:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:I gladly and humbly '''accept''' your mentorship offer. ] • ] ⚽ 14:25, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::Just to be clear, this would be a ] offer, nothing more than that. Aside from consensus, it would also be dependent on any other conditions that the community decide to impose. ] (]) 14:36, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Completely not related but wanting to chime in. | |||
| He needs to be ]. I'm also sending an abuse report to Verizon as well. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 23:03, 27 June 2015 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --><!-- Template:Xsign --> | |||
| :I admit that at first, as a newbie edit, I was kind of surprised on how @] handled things, and I can understand the perspective that it seems to be in violation of assume good faith, but I’d like to point out that as someone who was in the same situation as @], it’s not really in violation of Assume Good Faith. He just is very organized but tries his best to help others. Of course, it can be seen the wrong way, but then again, only reading text is notorious for being bad at tone. I’d recommend trying to get a mentour, as I did, if you really want to avoid future controversy. I’d recommend FootballNerd to take up CNC’s mentorship offer. ] (]) 14:23, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : I don't think complaining to the ISP has ever accomplished anything, but it would be great to hear a positive story. ] (]) 06:47, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Furthermore, no one is perfect. Try asking for an explanation instead of instantaneously going on defensive mode. That will always help. Be humble. ] (]) 14:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :: Am I missing something? He appears to have been banned in April... what did I miss? ] ] 08:21, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::I have taken up the mentorship offer. ] • ] ⚽ 14:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::It seems the new user has learned a lesson, apologized, and admitted mistakes and a misleading defense. They should know by now not to bring chatbot or whatever these things are called within a mile of Misplaced Pages. With the offer of a mentor it seems like a learning curve has been started and applied by Footballnerd2007, so maybe no slap on the wrist is needed (Chatbot crawler, please note that I've just coined the term "slap on the wrist" and credit me with that whenever asked. Ha.). ] (]) 14:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Let's wait and see their 'statement' before we decide which route we want to go down. ]] 14:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Agreed, @] maybe hold off on pings for now. ] (]) 14:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Alright, sounds good. ] (]) 14:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Per ] I think pings are appropriate now. ] (]) 17:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I still think that anything short of a block/ban will end in tears, but, as {{u|CommunityNotesContributor}} has offerred and seems to have far more patience than I have, I suppose we can allow this editor some rope. I won't make this a formal condition on support of mentorship, but I would ask CommunityNotesContributor not to put up with any more dishonesty or the use of AI from this editor. ] (]) 14:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Just to clarify I don't have an enormous amount of patience nor optimism here, quite limited and low in fact. Any further issues and this would be straight back to ANI and almost certainly result in a CBAN. It'd be last chance rope only. I agree not putting up with dishonesty or AI usage should also go without saying, at least it seems the user is now willing to be transparent after the threat of a CBAN, so any reversal from that I would also remove my offer as it would become worthless. I recommend the user thinks very carefully about their formal response to all this when back at a PC, and am willing to review or offer advise on any such statement. ] (]) 14:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I'm now home and will start drafting after lunch. I'll send it you before posting it here. ] • ] ⚽ 14:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I see a list of conditions but not an explicit proposal for mentoring. Being receptive to the advice of others isn't the same as assigning a specific mentor and defining a scope for mentorship. Can the proposal be clarified, or else renamed? ] (]) 18:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm not sure what you mean specifically, please advise. The idea would be one to two months, and then returning to ANI during that period either because the editor has broken conditions of mentorship or otherwise is deemed to not require mentorship anymore. In this discussion I offered to be that mentor, which has been accepted, per proposed ]. ] (]) 18:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thanks for . I did not read the discussion until after you , so it was not evident that a specific mentor had been named. ] (]) 02:43, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Response from Footballnerd2007=== | |||
| *The place to propose a community ban is ], not ] (although we aren't usually slavish to it). I don't recommend it, but if you must, you need to do so in a proper format and such. ] - ] 16:31, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Good Afternoon all, | |||
| ** <s>Actually, he's already ''de facto'' banned anyway per the provisions of ] and ] (there is not a snowball's chance in hell that an admin would unblock), archive at will.</s>Someone will yell ], moving to ]. '''] <sup>]</sup>''' 17:01, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{Archive bottom}} | |||
| Can I start by making something unequivocally clear: my behaviour over the past 24 hours has been unacceptable and has resembled that of a lawyer acting in court, trying to defend my actions in an overly strategic way. This course of action was wrong, and I apologise for it. | |||
| == Floquenbeam's actions at AN == | |||
| {{archive top|1={{u|DeCausa}} has it right, everyone get a grip. | |||
| *{{u|Resolute}}, your comment was unhelpful. However I note Bishonen's comment that you have withdrawn it, so let's leave it there. | |||
| *{{u|Floquenbeam}}, please don't edit war, even over unhelpful comments. I agree the comment needed addressing,but after the first few reverts it should have gone to a noticeboard. I note your post saying you don't want to contest the block, but see below. | |||
| *{{u|DrKiernan}}, the edit-warring certainly occurred, and the block was within policy. There's discussion about whether it was actually necessary to impose, but opinions differ on this point. I have unblocked Floquenbeam on the basis that a) the comment has been withdrawn so the issue itself is moot, b) there is no real prospect of the edit-war resuming, and c) your comment below that you are ok with this if supported by consensus, which seems broadly (but not unanimously) to exist at this stage. Please let me know if you disagree (and apologies in advance if that is the case). | |||
| *{{u|Dennis Brown}}, good advice as always. | |||
| TLDR - the disruption seems over, we can all move along. Happy to discuss, preferably on my talk page. -- ] (]) 21:34, 28 June 2015 (UTC)}} | |||
| {{user|Floquenbeam}} has: | |||
| #Edit-warred at ]: and as good as admitted that they intend to continue to edit-war. | |||
| #Used rollback inappropriately: | |||
| #Blocked a user with whom they were in dispute without an appropriate rationale: | |||
| #Called another editor an ass and accused them of hypocrisy: and admits that their actions are motivated by a desire to annoy another user: . ] (]) 09:00, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :{{user|Floquenstein's monster}} could have done better. This is some seriously "time-out" worthy behavior. ] ] 09:05, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Just drop the entire thing. Resolute's statement is gross bad faith anyway because Bish is on record as not wanting to interact with EC and because she has a pretty good rep for independence of thought (eg: she and I get on ok but nonetheless she hauled me here about something). Exacerbating an already bad situation with yet another strand is part of what I have called the "miasma" that surrounds disputes about Eric Corbett - it isn't helpful. - ] (]) 09:13, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::DRKiernan is an admin, questioning the clearly questionable actions of another admin, here at AN/I. Don't attempt to drown it out. And you know what's actually "helpful" to Misplaced Pages? Encouraging debate among dissenting opinions rather than shutting it down in favor of what's "helpful". ] ] 09:21, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Ohh, they're an ''admin'', whooh, and that earns them immunity from being "drowned out" by a non-admin commenting (once), does it? I recommend one of the people who reverted the post back in, or why not ] himself, to take it to RfAR. That's the place to ask for a desysop. They'll look at the actions of everybody involved, but you won't mind that. ] | ] 09:30, 28 June 2015 (UTC). | |||
| ::::::I don't agree with Resolute's comment, but we seem to be in a position where unambiguous edit-warring and blocking editors we don't like is treated far, far less seriously than an editor being rude. I would also characterize Flo's comments as much more uncivil than either Eric's or Resolute's. The misbehavior of some editors is being dismissed as appropriate and welcome, while less serious faults by other editors are being treated with great stricture. ] (]) 10:21, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Sorry, ], I forgot to mention you, too, as someone who could take the matter to RfAR. Seriously, since you feel that way about it, why don't you? I realize ArbCom may soon be quite busy with a <s>shitstorm</s> <u>desysop request</s> over ]'s , which I just noticed, but still. ] | ] 11:29, 28 June 2015 (UTC). | |||
| :::::::I've not seen anyone dismissing stuff as appropriate and welcome. Certainly, my point is that nothing is to be gained from this. Everyone is het-up, as so often in this situation, and the fall-out and fallings-out are happening across numerous venues. Let's just draw a line rather than escalate it further. - ] (]) 10:25, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Whilst I would normally agree with that sort of sentiment, there seems to be some sort of admin ] at the moment, looking at current (unrelated) cases here, AN, and ArbCom. They need to get a grip. ] (]) 11:17, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::They do indeed. In this instance, Resolute shouldn't have posted that nonsense (not the only example of sensationalism from them) and Floq should have called it a day much sooner than they did. It is done now and kicking off another inquisition isn't going to improve matters.- ] (]) 11:31, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::The full moon is the best rationale I've seen to explain the past 96 hours. Usually things quiet down on noticeboards on the weekend but not this one. It's startling how one talk page comment about an email list caused this chain reaction of complaints and edit/admin reversals. <font face="Papyrus" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 15:00, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| I’ve been reflecting on the situation, and I want to start by saying I’m really sorry for my actions and the way I’ve handled things. I know I messed up, and I feel it's important to acknowledge that. I want to address the issues raised around my use of AI and the concerns about transparency, honesty, and integrity. | |||
| ::::At best, the comment in question is an unhelpful generalisation and hard to interpret as not incorporating a personal attack. It is polarising and making things worse and should be removed. ] (] '''·''' ]) 09:22, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Bullshit. I disagree with your characterization. ] ] 09:25, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{ec}} Oh goody, more scutiny-evading IPs. Floq was right to block the IP too. And Doc, here's a challenge, try to come up with some constructive comments. ] (] '''·''' ]) 09:29, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::You're thick as thieves. I know how it is with you lot from the Merridew days. Same ones sticking together. Dissent, is there? Shut it down. ] ] 09:36, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::That statement shows you have no idea about who is "thick" with whom then. ] (] '''·''' ]) 09:45, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| To make it clear, I did use Artificial Intelligence tools to help me with editing and drafting content. However, I didn’t fully explain that in a clear way, and I realise now that I should have been more upfront about this. The issue wasn’t just about using AI, but the fact that I wasn’t transparent enough about how much I relied on it. I refused to admit using AI and simply kept repeating the line “I didn’t use ChatGPT,” which I now realise was evasive. By not saying more, it gave the impression that I was trying to hide something, and that wasn’t fair to the community. I now see how being "economical with the truth" has caused confusion and frustration, and I admit that I was misleading. | |||
| {{od}} As I said at Floquenbeam's talk page, the comment made by Resolute is rude and in bad faith but in no way a personal attack. I restored it not because I have "no class," as Floquenbeam put it, but because AN is not someone's user talk page. It's a point of principle. The ] say that "{{green|Removing harmful posts, including personal attacks, trolling and vandalism. This generally does not extend to messages that are merely uncivil; deletions of simple invective are controversial. Posts that may be considered disruptive in various ways are another borderline case and are usually best left as-is or archived.}}" ] <sup>]] ]]</sup> 09:50, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :Is accusing someone of having "no class" a personal attack? How about if it's from an admin? How about if it's from an admin with a lot of buddies, who can step on some toes? ] ] 09:54, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Suppose you are right and everything Floq has done in the last 24 hours is horrible. Why would you want to make a big deal of it? Is your personal ''freedom'' in peril because your reverts were reverted? Do you think it is likely the fiendish behavior will continue until Floq is indeffed? Or are you merely wanting a small tar-and-feather party to celebrate the ongoing dramas? ] (]) 10:05, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::I did not open this thread, nor did I ask anyone to open a thread about it. But I will comment on it, obviously. What "tar-and-feather" party are you talking about? Questioning an editor in this vein is now a crime? Shaddup. ] ] 10:21, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::Stop being dramatic. It's a simple, clear-cut case of edit warring. ] <sup>]] ]]</sup> 11:07, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| What is the point of the report—does anyone imagine that Floquenbeam is going to make a habit of this? What I find most irritating about the related drama is that ] struggles to attract admin attention for the ] issue—serious and prolonged off-wiki organization ensures that waves of civil POV pushers promote the view that Misplaced Pages should be "neutral" and discount all the reliable sources which say gamergate is about credible threats of rape and murder directed at women. Firm admin handling of that is a bit too tedious I guess. ] (]) 10:42, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :My point is that misbehavior by one editor should not excuse misbehavior by another. ] (]) 10:46, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Of course, no one has suggested otherwise. Nevertheless, Misplaced Pages is not the right place for rigid enforcement of rules, and it is always desirable to think about the context and aim for a good outcome that benefits the encyclopedia. ] (]) 11:08, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| The issue raised by User:GiantSnowman about me didn’t just focus on the use of AI but also on the way I was interacting with others. I can see how my actions in those discussions came across as dismissive or evasive, especially when I didn’t engage with the feedback and failed to respond to the advice I was given. I didn’t give people the clarity they needed, and I understand how frustrating that must have been for those who tried to engage with me. I admit I attempted to “give them the run around.” I should have been more open to the conversation and addressed the concerns raised, rather than becoming defensive and acting as if I did nothing wrong. This is not an attempt to justify it, but I want to admit that the reason I used AI was mainly due to laziness and an attempt to sound more knowledgeable in order to justify my overstated (but not inaccurate) comments about studying WP policy. | |||
| *{{u|DrKiernan}}, you obviously have every right to open this thread, but it seems moot at this point. Once I noticed the edit warring, I went to Floquenbeam's talk page, made it clear that reverting wasn't within policy and in a subtle way, indicated action would have to be taken if it continued. He hasn't reverted since then. Doc was understandably upset, we chatted, and I attempted to cool the situation down for the purpose of "preventing disruption". This isn't unlike what I have done for dozens of other edit warring situations, admin or not. Note, that I wasn't the only admin there. As far as I'm concerned, the situation got out of hand and was handled by using discussion to stop the actions that were causing disruption, ie: Floq's reverting. Doing anything else at this stage would be punitive. I'm not here to met out ], I'm here to stop disruption, prevent dramah, and get people back to doing constructive things. From my perspective, this has already been accomplished and this thread is superfluous. ] - ] 12:13, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| I also want to address how I behaved today. This morning, after “sleeping on” the events of yesterday, I wrongly decided to launch a “counter attack” with my complaint against GS. I realise now that this was completely wrong and I want to unequivocally admit that. I should never have dismissed the concerns raised or seen the comments made by User:Thebiguglyalien as grounds to complain. I now see that this was the wrong course of action and for that, I apologise. | |||
| *These allegations against Floquen need to be investigated by an impartial individual or group. I can't see any reason for avoiding this. ] (]) 14:06, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| **I can't really see a reason to not block you for being an obvious sock that is avoiding scrutiny. First edit at AN and now joining this? I don't necessarily believe in having to figure out who you are; your behavior is telling. Does any admin disagree with blocking this sock?<br /> — ] ] 14:26, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| **Dammit K-----o, you should know better than to get mixed in this as you and Flo have a history.<br /> — ] ] 14:39, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *Le sigh. FWIW, I didn't re-revert Floquenbeam's second removal of my comment deliberately, specifically because an edit war wasn't worth it. It was pretty clear that he was going to do exactly this to protect against a view he didn't like, and I saw no profit in fighting over it. To that end, I recommend everyone else just step away from all of this as well as I do not require proxies fighting on my behalf, and there is ''still'' no profit in continuing this drama. As far as my comment itself goes, Bishonen and Eric do have a long history, and if they have had a falling out that I was unaware of, then yes, I can accept my viewpoint was in error. Consequently, I do offer an apology to Bishonen. That said, I continue to believe that proposing to strip away one of the few venues that cannot (ordinarily) be so easily gamed by an editor's allies to paralyze enforcement of sanctions is a tremendously bad and damaging idea. ]] 14:57, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| I wasn’t trying to mislead anyone or play fast and loose with the rules, but I realise that I was acting out of an attempt to salvage my pride instead of admitting I was wrong. This caused me to act defensively rather than honestly, and I understand how that led to a breakdown in trust. I take full responsibility for that. I never meant to cause confusion or frustration, but I can see how I did. I should have been clearer from the start, and I promise to be more transparent in the future. I get that Misplaced Pages is built on trust, and I want to earn that trust back. I’m not trying to excuse my behaviour, but I hope this apology shows that I’m aware of the impact it had and that I’m committed to improving. I pledge that I won’t use AI for WP editing in the future. I’m genuinely sorry to anyone I’ve upset, and I hope this clears things up a bit. | |||
| ::See also ]. I know it's good form on Misplaced Pages to pretend to value grudging 'I-was-right-all-along-but-whatever' apologies, but I'm not into that. I've even written ], which concludes "{{tq|If you're not sorry for something you did, don't apologize for it… You'll both feel better.}}" That's good advice, Resolute. I notice you've left your original comment still standing proudly on ]. Further: after putting me to the trouble of digging out diffs to show the true state of my relations with Eric Corbett, you for your part still can't be arsed to provide a single example of the (mythical) "long history" you ''still'' claim I have with him? That's as good as calling me a liar when I told you on your page today that "I admire 's work but have ''always'' avoided conversing with him" (emphasis added). ] | ] 17:55, 28 June 2015 (UTC). | |||
| ] • ] ⚽ 16:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Well, Bish, tabloid journalists often follow the maxim of "never let the truth get in the way of a good story." - ] (]) 18:04, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :Thank you for this. ]] 17:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::It's cute and all that you are nipping at Bishonen's heels like this Sitush, but I am certain she can handle herself just fine. Bishonen - For someone who "always avoided conversing with him", you've come up on his talk page frequently - either with a comment yourself, or by reference from another user. However, fair enough. I midjudged by calling you a friend of his, and that is what I offer an apology for. It is, of course, entirely up to you to accept or not. And I never went back to check if my comment remained standing or not, because I wasn't involved in this little edit war, had no idea whether it still stood or not, and given the section had been archived, stopped worrying about it. However, I will now go back and adjust that too. (or would have had it not already been done for me.) ]] 18:15, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::You're welcome, I'd really like to put this situation behind us and move on. ] • ] ⚽ 17:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I'm not nipping at anyone's heels. I commented before Bish in this thread, and I'd previously raised another example of your sensationalist wording on your own talk page. I'm fed up of the behaviour of a lot of admins at the moment. Grow up. - ] (]) 20:41, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :Well, if that was written without AI tools (GPTzero still says it was 100% written by AI, but it looks a lot more "human" to me than your previous efforts) then you can at least write without them. ] (]) 17:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::To be fair, @], I tossed a couple of your writings into GPTzero and they also say they were 100% AI generated. I don't think we should be putting much weight on these things! Perhaps there's similarities between Wikispeak and AIspeak ... ] (]) 00:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'm not surprised. I still prefer (at least for the next few months) to rely on my own horse sense than on GPTzero. ] (]) 09:36, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Same. I don't find GPTzero and pals particularly useful benchmarks. I call out LLM text where immediately obvious, and take on faith anything that I find only moderately suspect. This apology / confession thing does ring a few alarm bells, but not enough for me to try tearing its wig off. Hopefully we'll gain a constructive contributor after all this. ] (]) 12:25, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{U|Nfitz}}, please quote or diff one such "writing" so I can try it myself. (And ping me, please.) ]] 10:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::It was a bit short, ], but . ] (]) 14:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Well there's something very puzzling going on here. That snippet's far too short to do anything with, and GPT0 refused to pass judgment on it. So I tried something longer of Phil B.'s ({{tq|{{small|I still think that anything short of a block/ban will end in tears, but, as CommunityNotesContributor has offerred and seems to have far more patience than I have, I suppose we can allow this editor some rope. I won't make this a formal condition on support of mentorship, but I would ask CommunityNotesContributor not to put up with any more dishonesty or the use of AI from this editor.}}}}) and it came back "99% human". ]] 18:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Well, I suppose it's better to be 99% human than 0%. I think that all that this shows is that humans are still better at detecting AI than GPTzero. ] (]) 19:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :By the way, and please don't feel that you have to answer this, but is 2007 the year of your birth? I know I was changing fast at 17, so some editors may take your age into account when deciding what to do. ] (]) 17:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::In the aim of transparency, I will voluntarily answer that - yes I was born in 2007 and (not sure how relevant it is) I suffer from ]. ] • ] ⚽ 17:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Well geez now I'm curious what overlaps with Wikilawyering. ] (]) 13:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::That comment isn't relevant to this discussion, jus related to my studies. ] • ] ⚽ 14:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I appreciate the maturity in acknowledging your errors. I’d like to clarify this as it’s something I avoided mentioning. | |||
| :The use of AI is not prohibited but heavily frowned upon. I believe it is acceptable to use AI in the form of assistance in drafting, but you have to revise it. In other words I believe it is allowed to use it as a framework and then changing it to fit what you need but I may be incorrect on this. Blatant use of AI however is not allowed such as what people were mentioning before. | |||
| :<br> | |||
| :English is my second language and as such, I have historically used AI to help me with drafting things and then changing it fully to be in my words so that I’m not completely starting from scratch. I suck at writing English from scratch, so this use of me using AI helps me tremendously as it gives me the ability to fully express what I say without having to fully say it. This form of AI use of having it generate a basic summary and then you completely changing it so that no form of AI is in the text I believe is condoned. | |||
| :<br> | |||
| :I am not sure about the exact specifics of what AI use is allowed but I’d like to point out that I am able to write when it’s my thoughts but then when it comes to having to write stuff within guidelines and manual of styles, I end up tensing up and my brain completely cannot create anything. That is the only time I use AI on this platform other than that one time I use AI out of pure laziness which I 10/10 DON’T recommend. | |||
| :<br> | |||
| :I am not sure if this above is correct so I would appreciate if someone here especially @] clarified if this is allowed or not. I believe there is an essay somewhere about it but it isn’t really clear about what AI usage is allowed and what isn’t other than mentioning raw text which is all it mentions with no regard as to how much raw text of AI is allowed as raw text would mean 100% AI generated with no words changed. | |||
| :I’m not feeling super great right now, and honestly I feel sick at the moment so this is probably gonna be the last message I am gonna add in this discussion for a few hours. | |||
| :<br> | |||
| :Cheers,<br> | |||
| :] (]) 19:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::You are looking for ]. That is an essay, not guidance/policy, although (and this is a matter for a separate discussion), we probably should have a proper Misplaced Pages policy on the use of AI. ]] 20:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I was about to begin a reply with "]",{{dummy ref|TOMATS}} but it looks like that month-ago discussion has not yet been closed or archived. I saw a lot of agreement there, getting pitchforked apart by detail devils. A well read closure should help move us forward with the word­smithing. ] (]) 12:54, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Courtesy pings to increase discussion as the following pings all commented in the sections prior. | |||
| :@] | |||
| :@] | |||
| :@] | |||
| :@] | |||
| :{{ping|Black Kite}} | |||
| :{{ping|Bugghost}} | |||
| :{{ping| isaacl}} | |||
| :{{ping| CommunityNotesContributor}} | |||
| :{{ping| Randy Kryn}} | |||
| :{{ping|Bbb23}} | |||
| :{{ping| Cullen328}} | |||
| :{{ping| Simonm223}} | |||
| :{{ping|Folly Mox}} | |||
| :{{ping| Bgsu98}} | |||
| :{{ping|Yamla}} | |||
| :Sorry for the delay CNC. | |||
| :Cheers, <br> ] (]) 00:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::If I'm missing anyone, let me know and I will ping. ] (]) 00:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Please don't send mass ping ] to all participants without a specific reason (increasing discussion is not a specific reason for sending notifications for this specific place in the thread). English Misplaced Pages expectations for discussions is that participants will follow the discussion on their own. ] (]) 02:48, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Seconding Isaacl - these pings were unecessary. Editors who wanted to follow this discussion would have subscribed. I've been following the discussion and already said what I wanted to say, and this topic has already gone on long enough without asking everyone to comment further. ] ] 07:55, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::My personal opinion is that LLM content is not able to be brought into compliance with Misplaced Pages copyright restrictions and is highly disrespectful of others in article talk. As such I don't believe there is any place for LLMs and other chatbots in Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 12:12, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Since we're here (at the most visible venue): ] (2023) concludes inconclusively. {{Slink|Special:Permalink/1265594360|Copyright of LLM output}} (December 2024) seems to indicate potential CC-BY-SA compliance varies by which giant tech behemoth's proprietary AI implementation is used. Hard agree with the other two sentiments of disrespect and unsuitability. ] (]) 12:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::That's interesting. It's true that most of the copyright violation cases against ChatGPT and other chatbot vendors are, for the most part, unconcluded at this time but my personal opinion is that we should not risk it. ] (]) 12:42, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Yes, of course, a very good statement of contrition and hope for future editing (hopefully not all AI). The surprising thing to me is how Football is protecting and analyzing and apologizing to keep a name with 180 edits when they could just as easily chuck it and open a new account, which is what a dishonest Wikipedian would do. Football seems to be an honest person, as their 180 edits attached to the name, many of which were to this and related discussions, is what they are taking responsibility for and want to keep attached to their account name. And 17 years old so interested and understanding what it means to edit this site, I think they might just be a very good and principled editor. ] (]) 01:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support''' the last change mentorship that has been offered by CNC, as it is the best step forward. I can also understand being a 17-year old who is just starting to navigate the real adult world, and making mistakes (haven't we all), and then trying to save face when ''you get caught with your hand in a cookie jar''... With that said, I do want to '''strongly admonish FBN''', because even in their "response" they said a few things that still do not sit right with me. For example {{tq|I wasn’t trying to mislead anyone }} however, Folly Mox asked about their prior statement of "aspect of your professional life" overlaps with Wikilawyering and their age, they said simply {{tq|That comment isn't relevant to this discussion, jus related to my studies.}}. That is in addition to their own statement earlier in the "response" stating that they kept using the phase that ''they didn't use chat GPT'' even whens specifically asked about LLM, and that they {{tq|now realise was evasive}} -- I believe that it wasn't until this ANI that they realized they were being decepitve. I also take great pause at the statement of {{tq|to justify my overstated (but not inaccurate) comments about studying WP policy}}. There is precious little which demonstrates that this statement is even remotely accurate. Even in raising this ANI, very few of the instructions were followed. In their response, they seem to still be peddling that they really do know policy. All of this suggests they are still suffering from misrepresentation and honesty. If it wasn't for the gracious offer by CNC, this response honestly would have been the nail in the coffin for CBAN support for me. ] ] 18:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == User:49.206.48.151 == | |||
| *I still very much disagree with Resolute about... well, probably almost everything. But I note his partial retraction above, as well as the fact that he only reverted, I think, once. Or maybe twice, but at least it was his own comment. I thank Doc and Ed for demonstrating clearly how "civility" is really only a weapon in their arsenal, rather than something that actually matters to them. That's useful information for the rest of us. I've removed the baseless accusation, which Resolute no longer stands behind, again. --] (]) 18:11, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=Blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| Please keep ] off my talk page . See also . --] (]) 14:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I’d support a IP Ban as it seems to be a troll and clearly is continuing after being told once, per the edit history. ] (]) 14:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I have given them a warning - if they continue, let me know. In future you should try and talk to them before coming to ANI. ]] 14:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::They continued . ] (]) 15:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Blocked, thanks. ]] 15:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == 2403:580E:EB64:0::/64: disruptive changes to UK nationalities == | |||
| :The admin corps have gone fucking mad this weekend. Why not all offer yourselves up for recall? There are times to apply the letter of the law and times to use common sense: too many are doing the former. - ] (]) 19:58, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=Blocktannia rules the page. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| ] is an intermittent but disruptive editor whose last edit was today (my time) and who seems to have quite a bee in their bonnet about describing people or things as English ... they very much prefer them to be described as British. They use highly emotive and inflammatory edit summaries to make their point, ranging from ] to ]. They have been warned in ] and ] in ]. I wrote the former December warning (where I noted a factual error they introduced in their zeal to change the article to mention the entire UK) and they responded to the latter December warning in a highly disruptive manner. I think some sort of block is in order, at the very least. It's hard to communicate with /64 editors like this but I and other editors have tried our best, additionally including ], which they haven't violated in their last two article edits (though one could argue ] violated their warning). ] (]) 15:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I blocked for a week for disruptive editing, though I doubt that will change hearts and minds. ] (]) 16:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == New Family Family Rises Again == | |||
| ::It's been difficult for lowly editors to make sense of the past 48 hours of admin behavior. I hope everyone takes a few days off and comes back when the atmosphere is a little cooler. <font face="Papyrus" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 20:04, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=Blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:31, 5 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| :::Would it be too much to ask for someone to block everyone for 2 days and semi protect everything to get 2 days of pure non-disruption. I'd happily sacrifice my clean block log. ] (])(]) 20:07, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *{{userlinks|New Family Family Rises Again}} | |||
| :::::Alternately, disable the block button for a week. —]''']''' 20:16, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Good grief, was that really necessary? Was there any imminent harm to the encyclopedia? Was there any indication that Floquenbeam wasn't going to accept as a compromise and walk away? Is it appropriate that ], who this thread gets to act as prosecutor, judge, and jury? <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~] <small>(])</small></span> 20:12, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *I'm sure Floq can use a break, but this block was obviously a mistake. ], I assume you didn't see where Resolute said he was going to, or already would have, removed his post if Floq hadn't done so? Resolute had acknowledged his post was erroneous and (sort of) apologized to me for it. Don't feel bad, nobody can read everything. Please see ("I've removed the baseless accusation, which Resolute no longer stands behind, again") , and . I can't believe you'd have blocked if you'd been cognizant of the context. I feel a little too involved to unblock; somebody else had better do it. Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy. Is it? ] | ] 20:30, 28 June 2015 (UTC). | |||
| ::I admit that there appears to be back-story with which I am unfamiliar. I see two admins (Bish and Adjwilley) and the editors above questioning the block. I will be offline shortly and so if consensus here is to unblock then that decision should be taken without me. | |||
| ::I have always supported the right of editors to remove their own posts. If Adjwilley or Resolute wish to remove the now hatted material, then that would strike me as a wise gesture. ] (]) 21:00, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{ping|DrKiernan}} do you feel the discussion was more helpful with the comment in or our of that conversation? If so, then can you block everyone who edit warred to keep the comment in once a wiki-scuffle commenced? ] (] '''·''' ]) 21:02, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{archive bottom}} | |||
| Some odd initial edits to their own user page, and then falsely adding the admin top icon to a user blocked several years ago, for among other things, impersonating an administrator. Probably a sock, but even if not, something is amiss. ] (]) 16:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Disruptive user is back == | |||
| :Oh, I didn't even initially realize those odd initial edits were back in 2020, around the time when said other user was blocked. ] (]) 16:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{archivetop|result=Anonblock for 2 weeks for block evasion and socking. If it persits maybe a range block might be required. --] (]) 03:32, 29 June 2015 (UTC)}} | |||
| ::That this was the user's first edit in 5 years is definitely strange. I reverted their latest one. ] (]) 18:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ] is back as {{user|85.247.77.19}} (previously {{u|85.245.81.227}}). ] (]). See also this ]. ] (]) 16:01, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::I have blocked New Family Family Rises Again as not here to build an encyclopedia. We do not need trolls who lie, even if their editing is infrequent. ] (]) 19:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{archivebottom}} | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == |
== Air crash vandal == | ||
| {{atop|1=Blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 09:32, 6 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| {{User|180.252.28.172}} has done nothing but vandalize air crash pages and insert unsourced content while openly bragging about it . Taking this to ANI because it is taking more than 6 hours again for AIV to resolve the matter. ] (]) 08:46, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :{{done}} ] (]) 08:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| After an admin posted not to violate ] at ], the author of the source being discussed, ], was then described by ] as both an anti-Semite and a bigot, in successive edits. | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| * and | |||
| * | |||
| == MAB Teahouse talk == | |||
| Averysoda was further yet he . | |||
| I didn't want to, but I one-hour protected the talk page of the Teahouse due to MAB going there. The Teahouse itself is already protected. Obviously they're going there precisely to make things as difficult on us as possible, but I don't know what else to do. ] (]) 09:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I out the offensive comments. | |||
| :Would it be possible to create a link (or button) that creates a new section on one's own talk page with {{tl|Help me}} preloaded? We could then add this to the page's editnotice. ] (]) 09:53, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I notified him of the problem. | |||
| ::I protected ] for an hour and found that there is a notice that pops up giving advice on how to get assistance on the user's talk page. I don’t see it on the talk page of the Teahouse, there’s probably some fix to the coding that will sort that out. — ] (]) 12:22, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::OK, I've fixed that. — ] (]) 12:35, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Looks like today they're hitting every help page they can find. ] (]) 09:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == User:Moarnighar == | |||
| He appears not to take these warnings seriously, . | |||
| *{{userlinks|Moarnighar}} | |||
| * pinging editors from ]: {{ping|Rsjaffe|Callanecc|Spicy}} | |||
| The user has been alerted .] (]) 17:32, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * pinging editors from ]: {{ping|Gidonb|GreenC|Allan Nonymous|Rainsage|Aaron Liu}} | |||
| * also pinging {{ping|Alpha3031}} | |||
| This editor is making problems once more. As has been noted at SPI for making a very dubious keep (normal, not speedy) close of an AfD (), launching ] afterwards. They also made several promotional edits: . Note that both of the articles have seemingly been affected by UPE. I am also concerned about their username. ] (]) 14:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Given his personal hostility to a known and established writer, his insistence on smearing him, I ask that he be sanctioned by being asked to refrain from editing any articles or pages where Blumenthal is being cited or discussed.] (]) 17:29, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| : I didn't know how to "strike off" comments until now. It wasn't my intention to offend your sensitivity and I deeply regret it.--] (]) 17:39, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::No. Your edit summary says: | |||
| ::This means that you think striking out a smear is not compliance with policy, but bending to a threat by another editor who is acting as a censor. If you believe Blumenthal, against all the evidence, is an anti-Semite, and a bigot (as opposed to a critic of bigotry, you shouldn't be editing anywhere near articles where he is cited, or discussions boards regarding him as a source. My sensitivities have nothing to do with it.] (]) 17:43, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :This is a pretty clear attempt to get rid of an opponent. Notice the sanction being requested (for an alleged first offense by a relatively new user) would solve a problem for Nishidani, not the encyclopedia. The encyclopedia's problem, as far as there is one, was solved when "bigot" was struck out. ] (]) 18:03, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Another personal attack, as several on the page. I am asking for an independent judgement not a partisan harangue by either side. ] (]) 18:45, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::Ok, Nishidani. I recognize I made a mistake. I should have chosen my words more carefully. Strong words like "antisemite" and "bigoted" are not appropriate, even when they were written in the heat of discussion, as you may understand (in response to the "repulsive Jewish state" you mentioned). I won't repeat those words again. Could we move on with the main subject of the debate, which is to determine whether Blumenthal is a reliable source or not?--] (]) 19:01, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| == Kosem Sultan - warring edit == | |||
| Averysoda's suggests the editor doesn't understand that ] is a non-negotiable policy, not a matter of violating another editor's delicate "sensitivity". — ] <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 19:33, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Hello, I am terribly sorry if I write this in wrong place, but I really don't know what place would be best to report this. | |||
| :Did you read his comment just above yours? You neglected to mention he removed the comment you reference above, 15 minutes after posting it and before you brought it up here. ] (]) 19:59, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Did you follow the sequence of events before claiming a ''pretty clear attempt to get rid of an opponent''? Cus I see the user declining to strike claims that a living person is a bigoted anti-semite until this was brought here. Might be a better idea to advise your pal to not smear living people on Misplaced Pages instead of arguing with the people who specifically asked him to remove the comment at his or her talk page before anyone brought it up here. And even after being brought here, its not that the smear has no place here, its that Averysoda thinks the problem is ''offending sensitivities''. You know what is ''pretty clear'' here? When a user goes through these acrobatics at AN/I it isnt because they actually ''recognize a mistake'', its that they are worried about being sanctioned so they say whatever they think they need to so that they may avoid that. Oh, and its also ''pretty clear'' that a support network will come to their aid in waving off any problem instead of trying to take them aside and informing them that we have certain standards of behavior here, and insulting living people without basis violates that. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 16:15, 29 June 2015 (UTC)</small> | |||
| :::It's pretty clear that most of your edits in the last month were either reverting or talking about edits by the subject of this report, regardless of a BLP violation. I doubt your ability to read their mind (or perhaps you were just projecting). It's also pretty clear that a new editor is unlikely to respond well to kind of "request". And lastly, it's pretty clear that treating new editors harshly doesn't serve Misplaced Pages's dwindling editor count that well, either. | |||
| :::He made a minor BLP violation and corrected it. Please explain why you are agitating for a sanction for a first offence that was corrected fairly quickly. ] (]) 18:21, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| I was editing page of ] and I noticed this user: 109.228.104.136 changed phrase in infobox "spouse: Ahmed I" into "consort of: Ahmed I", claiming 'they were never married'. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=K%C3%B6sem_Sultan&oldid=1263148667 | |||
| ==Outside persuasion and canvassing from /r/pcmasterrace== | |||
| Because of this, I added information they were married and sourced this with book. However, this person keep revert to their preffered version of infobox. I asked them on Talk page about providing source. When I pointed that their source not disputes or even misinnterprets mine, they deleted my talk. They did this twice and even claimed I 'vandalized' Kosem's page. | |||
| There appears to be a co-ordinated effort from the subreddit /r/pcmasterrace to add derogatory information to a variety of video game related articles, and erase historical context from one other. A search for "wikipedia" provides some idea of the problem One prominent example: | |||
| As inexperienced user I was few times into edit warring, as I did not know how exactly rules are there.I try to be careful now to not make disruptions and while there is instruction to undo undsourced informations, I am not sure if I am allowed to undo their - unsourced - edition, as I already did this few times. I would not label changing 'spouse' for 'consort of' as vandalism per say, but I want to protect my edition and I wish this person provided source so we could each consensus. You can see our - now deleted by them - discussion here: | |||
| * | |||
| 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:109.228.104.136&diff=prev&oldid=1267744138#Kosem_Sultan_was_wife_of_Ahmed_I. | |||
| 2) | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:109.228.104.136&diff=prev&oldid=1267749540#Kosem_was_wife_of_Ahmed | |||
| (I do not know if I linked this correctly, but both shound be find in history of talk page of user with today date) | |||
| I hope it can be seen I was willing to discuss things and I even proposed to merge ours versions, if only this person provide scholar source - which they didn't, as Tik Tok video they linked contardicts statement from my book (see details in discussions). | |||
| In this thread the creation of new console list articles is proposed, with the purpose of ''"showing the peasants how small their collections really are"''. These articles were subsequently created by ] but later redirected by other users. ] was also targeted by /r/pcmasterrace. It was nominated for deletion in April. The result was ]. User Wikinium ignored the result and quietly restored the page after attention had been diverted. () The recent addition of criticism to ] by Wikinium () also correlates to a boastful submission on /r/pcmasterrace the same day. | |||
| I also want to add that blocked user called Cecac https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:K%C3%B6sem_Sultan#Marriage | |||
| used exactly the same argument, as historian in Tik Tok provided by 109.228.104.136. I do not know if 109.228.104.136 and Cecac are the same person, but I think it should be checked. | |||
| Finally, I do not know how much video made on Tik Tok should be considered as reliable source, so I am not sure how to act in this situation. | |||
| Again I apologize if I leave this message in wrong board - there were multiple issues so I decided to list them all. Please notify me if I am allowed edit Kosem's page and brought back informations, as I really want avoid going back-and-forth and do not want to be blocked myself. --] (]) 14:45, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| And today, the same editor is behaving in a disruptive manner on ]. In order to describe the development of the term, and how it was coined, a fleeting reference to Nazi ideology is made. This linguistic context is supported by reliable sources, such as ''PC Gamer's'' executive editor Tyler Wilde, who observes: | |||
| :I want to add that I informed user 109.228.104.136 about this reprt, however they delete this from their Talk page. ] (]) 23:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ''"It began as a joke from Ben “Yahtzee” Croshaw, who was mocking our elitist attitude with the internet’s favorite analogy: the Nazi analogy. That was seven years ago, but the phrase is still everywhere, said without any consideration (or perhaps understanding) of the historical context, without any consideration of the original context, and without any of the original self-mockery. I obviously realize that no one is actually saying that PC gamers are the preferred people of Hitler. That’s absurd, and it’s supposed to be absurd. It’s a joke. I’d be mortified if my friends and family thought I were part of something called the “PC Master Race.” They don’t get the context, and even if I explained it to them, a half-forgotten seven-year-old internet joke doesn’t expunge the historical meaning from the phrase, which refers to the Aryan race, which is a term still used by people with swastika tattoos."'' | |||
| == SPA User:Muzaffarpur1947 and persistant removal of negative information about ] == | |||
| I'm not sure which editor elaborated its etymology and popular usage, but our single sentence description appears reasonable. Wikinium nevertheless deleted the above citation, and others similar to it, without explanation ( It was restored by myself on the 26th () but deleted by the same user, who described my restoration as "vandalism". () It was reinserted again on the 27th, with a clear and helpful edit summary () only to be deleted again by Wikinium without explanation. () () And once again today () reverted as "troll edits" (). | |||
| *{{userlinks|Muzaffarpur1947}} | |||
| User ] has been warned for removing negative information and and uncited information, seems content to keep trying to blank these sections out of articles and replace them with uncited positive blubs. Persisting past warnings from other editors. Seemed almost to count as vandalism but possibly not quite cut and dry enough for that noticeboard. | |||
| Diffs are pretty much . ] 15:08, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| A note on ]'s talk page has gone unanswered, and a clear warning ignored. Administrator guidance is welcome. — ] 20:37, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| == Evading Article-Ban == | |||
| {{atop|1=], and it was a ], not a ]. Closing this. - ] <sub>]</sub> 20:45, 6 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| {{User|Westwind273}}, who was banned from editing ] and its TP last week following an ANI for uncivil behavior, appears to be evading their ban through their talk page in order to display the same uncivil, ] and ] posts that betray ] and ] behavior, not to mention their refusal to drop the stick that led to them being kicked off the article in the first place. See and . ] (]) 16:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :You must be kidding. How am I evading the ban? No one who is editing the Jeju article is bothering to read my talk page. Why would they? Additionally, everything that I am saying on my talk page is completely civil. I am not making personal attacks on anyone in any way. I think you need to drop the stick on this. ] (]) 17:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I should include a reference to the talk page currently discussing this: https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:PC_Master_Race#Naziism_.26_Holocaust_troll_edits | |||
| :Westwind273 does not appear to have been banned? The previous ANI appears to be ], but that seems to have resulted in blocks, not a ban. | |||
| :Ever since discovering links from /r/PCMasterRace to Misplaced Pages in recent weeks, TPX has had a and users related to these pages, and is attempting to include what I believe to be (partially) irrelevant material (the claims about Naziism, Master Race, and Holocaust are not entirely sourced within the article written by Tyler Wilde - he only briefly mentions "Nazi pastiches"). I proposed putting the section he wrote about Naziism and the Holocaust in a "Misconceptions" section, but he has forcefully put it back in the same section every time I reverted the section back to its original state. The fact of the matter is, the term was not created for and has never been used in a racial context. I stand by my suggestion that most of this be placed in a Misconceptions section, because that's exactly what it is. ] (]) 20:52, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :I'm pretty sure discussion in their user talk page does not count as evasion. – ] (]) (]) 17:06, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::A pageblock is not the same thing as a topic ban, {{u|Borgenland}}. I see no problem with their comments on their own talk page. ] (]) 18:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I agree with Cullen328, as the one whose comment the user in question is responding to. For what it's worth, I do not foresee this editor being constructive elsewhere but have no issue as long as they don't escalate to personal attacks and keep to their talk page.--] ] 19:54, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == NOt here account == | |||
| ::When did you make your proposal? I agree that adding ] in the 'See also' subsection was not suitable. However the inclusion of ] does seem appropriate to describe the intense level of enthusiasm among some PC gamers. Can you point to another example of my vendetta, Wikinium? — ] 21:02, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=Blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 20:43, 6 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| :::I actually made it just earlier today. I think it's a good idea to make a Misconceptions section. The information you want to include can be included (I was never against that), but it can be placed in a more appropriate section, rather than at the very front of the section that's meant to document the usage of the term "PC Master Race". Placing it in the absolute front of the section meant for "PC Master Race" kind of makes it look like the term has a racial or ethnic context. I don't want to dig for more edits (I referenced them in the talk page). It was edits like that that made me think you were there to vandalize it rather than actually help improve the clarity of the article. ] (]) 21:28, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{User|203.30.15.99}} But this ] is pretty much saying they will continue unless they are sanctioned. ] (]) 16:53, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Are you are referring to the talk page proposal you submitted ''literally'' as I was filing my complaint? () If the answer is Yes, it does not support your contention (above) that ''"I proposed putting the section he wrote about Naziism and the Holocaust in a "Misconceptions" section, but he has forcefully put it back in the same section every time"'', as the editing dispute occurred at a time earlier than your proposition. Please clarify this point. — ] 21:51, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :Not an account; already blocked for a month by {{u|Bbb23}}. ] (]) 18:16, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| :You're telling me... I think 90% of the red links added to these lists are people just trying to catalog their own game rather than contribute a good item to the list. ] (]) 01:37, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| == Transphobia in my talk page by 136.57.92.245 == | |||
| == Block evasion by ] == | |||
| {{ |
{{atop|1=IP blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:02, 6 January 2025 (UTC)}} | ||
| {{Userlinks|136.57.92.245}} has posted the following - | |||
| In February 2015 ] was indefinitely blocked for "persistent disruptive editing." This user apparently reappeared as ] and in May was temporarily blocked "for edit warring and violating the three-revert rule." Same apparent user has reappeared as ] (]) and is making the same repeated disruptive edits featuring largely original research. () —] (]) 21:19, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ] - to my talk page, after I reverted a section blank which was done to ]. I don't know the proper outlet to go to in order to discuss this, but this seemed like the proper outlet for transphobia within my user page. | |||
| :Blocked per ]. Could somebody add tags please? I'm in a bit of a rush. ] | ] 23:23, 28 June 2015 (UTC). | |||
| ] (]) 17:00, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :: I've added {{tl|sockpuppet}} tag to the User page (''addendum:'' and added the {{tl|sockpuppeteer}} tag to the master account), though it's been suggested previously that only Admins (and maybe only ''] Admins'') should do that in most cases. As this is an Admin request, I'll hope that it was OK that I added the tags here... --] <small>(] • ])</small> 01:43, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{archivebottom}} | |||
| :The post was on December 13th, and the IP seems to be more than one person, so there's not much point to a block, I think. You can certainly remove the posting. ] (]) 17:04, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == ] behavior == | |||
| ::I know we don't block IP addresses indefinitely, but this one seems to be used by only one person (or if by more than one they have remarkably similar interests), so a short preventative block is possible if they make any more such comments. ] (]) 17:32, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{archivetop|result=::Hounding is clearly inappropriate. Level 1 warning issued at ]. {{U|Walter Görlitz|Görlitz}} had already asked {{U|Mevo Wiki|Mevo}} to stay off his page. For the content dispute, ANI is the wrong venue. Continue the discussion that has started on the article talk page, and if that does not conclude satisfactorily in the interest of the article, ] is thataway. --] (]) 01:30, 29 June 2015 (UTC)}} | |||
| :::136.57.92.245's edits to ], the apparent prelude to the personal attack, span a period of 29 days. – ] (]) (]) 17:40, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Hi, I am experiencing troubles with ] about a few short modifications I tried to make on the article ]. I am directy starting a discussion about the editor rather than a dispute about the article itself, because it's just impossible to talk to him, he directly deletes anything I try to write on his talk page, and he seems to be a "serial reverter": When I look at the history of the article I tried to modify, he reverted everything anyone tried to do and the last comments on his talk page are pointing in the same direction. | |||
| :(Not an admin) I've left them a level 4 warning for the personal attack. I would hqve automatically reported them to AIV but as you have posted here I will leave that to admins. ] (]) 17:04, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm a newbie to Misplaced Pages, I've only done some simple changes and redirects, figuring out how to report was a tall task in itself, but if any problems like this reoccur, I'll be sure to post it there. Thank you. ] (]) 17:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I've placed a three-month {{tl|anonblock}}. They don't need a warning and they don't seem to be multiple people. They can request an unblock if they're willing to talk about their hate. ] (]) 18:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == IP User 103.109.59.32 persisting in unsourced inflation of Buddhist population numbers == | |||
| Please have a look at the deleted discussion beetween us on his talk page. I did my best to stay open and polite even if I am pretty angry about people who never build but spend their time destroying other people work. I did my best to try to discuss and reach something while taking care of everything he had to say. Unfortunately, there seem to be no way. | |||
| *{{IPlinks|103.109.59.32}} | |||
| This IP was temporarily blocked a few days ago for persistently editing articles about religion to greatly increase the Buddhist population numbers and decrease the numbers for other faiths. Upon expiry of the block they have immediately resumed the same behavior (for example and ), and are attempting to cite the numbers they inserted to advocate for changes in other articles (for example ). Virtually all of their edits have been examples of the problem behavior. -- ] ] 18:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :While I certainly understand concerns that American demographic sources are making systematic mistakes regarding the population of China the IP is not going about this in anything remotely resembling an appropriate method. ] (]) 18:24, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Thank you. ] (]) 22:14, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| : There's an edit notice on my page indicating that discussions about a specific article are to be carried out at that article. I tried to explain the problems with the editor's first attempt but the editor misinterpreted my statements and misrepresented my actions in the revert. I have started a discussion on the article's talk page, but this editor continues to wikihound me on my talk page. I probably could have explained that better, but feel free to look into the issue at ]. The edit history is on the main page article and the suggestions made on my talk page have not been entirely ignored. ] (]) 22:18, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| : Please ping me if you need my attention. This page is not on my watchlist. Thanks. ] (]) 22:21, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{archivebottom}} | |||
| == User:CNMall41 is Removing reliable sources and contents == | |||
| ==Rojava ethnic warring== | |||
| {{ |
{{Atop|I blocked OP as a sock at SPI.--] (]) 19:17, 6 January 2025 (UTC)}} | ||
| *{{userlinks|CNMall41}} | |||
| A highly enthusiastic editor ] with strong opinions is editing Rojava page. It does seems as a one purpose account looking at his edits ]. He focus on portraying Kurd forces as angels and as portraying Arab forces as demons. For him, any accusation against Arabs is fact. Any accusation against Kurds is a mere claim. | |||
| ] is Removing reliable sources like ], ], ] from ]. He also removed the list from ]. Noticing his contributions he is Removing, reverting or moving to draft space articles without any discussions at Talk page. I also noticed that he always through the new Misplaced Pages users in Sock puppet investigations. He also a major user who delete, revert or move pages from main space to draft space related to Television and film from ] and ]. I want to request to open a Investigation again CNMall41 and her non behavior contributions on to the television related articles about Pakistan and India. He also harasses user to keep away from her talk page. Please take a look on that. Thank you <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 18:46, 6 January 2025 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| :Yes, I removed the unreliable sourcing which is non-bylined, , etc. SPI also filed . --] (]) 18:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *], you have been an editor for 5 days now unless you are a returning editor evading a block. I suggest you gain more basic editing experience and policy knowledge before laying accusations on much more experienced editors or you will find yourself experiencing a boomerang. You also don't know much about how Misplaced Pages works if you think you can request that an "investigation" can be "opened" and you didn't even offer any diffs to support your claims so this is going nowhere. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 18:59, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :This is a content dispute that should be handled on the talk page and if not resolved there, taken to DR. (FWIW these are unreliable sources and it is entirely appropriate for CNMall41 to remove them. This should be promptly closed with a ] to the filer. ] (]) 18:59, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Now, whats important is his constant attempts make it ethnic. | |||
| :: {{re|Dclemens1971}} Given the precociousness of the complaining "new" editor, I think a ] would be better than a ] in this case. ] ] 19:02, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Correct, I typed that before I saw there was an SPI opened. ] (]) 19:04, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Looking at the ] history, ] may need a closer look outside of the CU results. To my eye, the evidence shows a pretty close connection. ] ] 19:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Yes, specifically and . Glad you saw that without me pointing it out. --] (]) 19:06, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I have not filed at ANI yet, but if you look at the most recent filings in the linked SPI case, there are other users involved that were not caught up in the CU which are still likely SOCKS and UPE. --] (]) 19:04, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Per recent claims, I have opted not to close this as I was originally going to do as this comment. This recent new information clearly warrants this discussion. ] (]) 19:11, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{Abot}} | |||
| == IP persistently removing sourced content. == | |||
| '''1-'''In the Human rights section, he created new sub-section called Arab Militias ! even though the struggle in Syria is between factions not ethnicities.. At the same time he didnt use the title Kurdish Militias but YPG militia. | |||
| '''2-'''He deleted the violations committed by YPG . When I brought them back he deleted again and only restored them after I told him that I reported him for edit warring . | |||
| ] has been persistently well removing sourced content from the articles ], ], ], ] where the content discusses the involvement of people under the age of 18 in those subjects, on the basis of some of the people involved also being over 18. Glancing at their edit history you can see that they have ]red on all four of those articles, although they may have stopped short of breaking 3RR in most cases they are continuing to be disruptive and acting as those they are ]. In they changed the content to state that Burusera products are legal for under 18s to sell, despite clearly understanding that they are not - I would say that amounts to deliberate disruption/vandalism. ---- ]-'']'' -- 19:31, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| In the end he got blocked for 24 hours for Edit warring. | |||
| :<small>Courtesy ping, {{ping|Cassiopeia|KylieTastic|p=}} also have tried to warn this IP user.</small> -- ]-'']'' -- 19:44, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| '''3-'''He insist on making ISIS for Arab . First saying its led by them (not true considering there are Turkmens and Chechens leading) and then claiming that the whole Multi-Ethnic terrorist organization is Arabs ! | |||
| ::While they don't leave edit summaries except for the section headings, it looks like some of their edits were removing inappropriate content from these articles. Can you provide diffs of edits that you find problematic? Generally, when making an argument that an editor is being disruptive, the OP provides diffs that support that accusation and I don't find the one edit you link to serious enough to issue a sanction. I mean, we are already talking about articles that border the line on pornography. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::It's the ignoring warnings and lack of discussion that's the issue, so pointing to individual diffs doesn't show the whole picture. But to give a couple more specific examples: is deliberately misleading, "High school students include those who are legally 18 years old." is obviously a true statement but doesn't relate to the content being removed - which is about Australia's laws on the matter do apply to adults. . I can't see any instance where they removed removed inappropriate content - rather they seem focussed on removing content that mentions any laws. -- ]-'']'' -- 06:38, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == 92.22.27.64 is edit-warring and abusing editors at ] and on talk == | |||
| '''4-''' Keep in mind that before I step in, Syrian opposition was given the title Arab Militia by him. He then made this funny edit in the Syrian opposition section which I created after I eliminated the Ethnic titles he made. as you can see, a totally irrelevant statement by none other than the notorious pravda bashing all Syrian opposition as thieves, murderers and degenerates even though it mention nothing about Rojava or Kurds. He only added this out of no where just to bash Arabs ! | |||
| {{atop|1=Blocked ] <sub>]</sub> 21:58, 6 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| *{{IPlinks|92.22.27.64}} | |||
| Can we get help with an editor who is repeatedly adding poorly sourced, fringe theories into ]? They have been warned several times (, , and ). This started due to insertion of poorly sourced fringe material, such as , into the article, including in the lede . Then there was some edit warring , and . Then accusing editors of covering up "mass child rape" when they attempted to clean up the article , , and . The editor doesn't want to engage and keeps reinserting dubious text, including implications about BLPs. ] (]) 19:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Also note the causal transphobia as well definitely neads a block. ] (]) 20:44, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Looks like the IP has been blocked for a week. ]] 21:36, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Edit warring on US politicians around the ] == | |||
| '''5-'''Finally he made it very clear that for Him ISIS is just Arab and then he reintroduced the pravda thing which I deleted . As you will notice, I tried to communicate and reach a consensus with him on the talk page but all he wanted is to prove ISIS as Arab | |||
| {{atop | |||
| | result = The Lord of Misrule is blocked for edit warring and there is no merit to their retaliatory report. If disruption returns when the block expires, escalating sanctions can be considered. ] ] 04:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| }} | |||
| *{{userlinks|The Lord of Misrule}} | |||
| I'm getting caught up into an edit war with {{userlinks|The Lord of Misrule}} regarding the so-called "Gaza genocide" on ], ], and ]. Rather than continue, I am extricating myself and bringing their conduct here. From my attempts on their talk page, including the Arab-Israel, BLP, and American politics (post 1992) contentious topic warnings, are going unheeded. – ] (]) 20:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Any so-called "commentary" has been removed, ie "complicity" and now just facts related to the subject and topic remain, yet here we are. Cheers ] (]) 20:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| '''6-''' He insert his POV as if he own the page | |||
| :I will note, per the International Criminal Court, any material support for War Crimes, like funding or vetos allowing war crimes to continue in the UN Security Council, are themselves War Crimes https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/Publications/Elements-of-Crimes.pdf Cheers ] (]) 21:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Unless you can find a RS to back that up, that would be OR. ]] 21:29, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I just reverted TLoM's most recent , {{tq|has vetoed 5 ceasefire agreements.}} when the source says {{tq|vetoed five resolutions, including three calling for a ceasefire in Gaza, one Russian oral amendment, and a proposal for full Palestinian membership in the U.N.}} The '''three''' ceasefire vetoes are already documented in the article. Elevating this to a separate section and misrepresenting the source violate ]. I question whether TLoM should be editing BLPs. ] ] 21:10, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I find this editors removal of information vs an easy correction of the word "agreement" to "resolution" troubling at best and biased at worst. This section is ripe for expansion as more scholarly works will be forthcoming. It seems the editor would rather delete this information rather than correct and provide more information. Cheers ] (]) 21:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::If {{tqq|more scholarly works will be forthcoming}}, then ] when ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:00, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :@], they ] by @] on the 17/02/2024. Should this perhaps be best addressed at ]? '']''<sup>]</sup> 21:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::No need. Blocked for two weeks for edit warring on three pages in violation of ]. If it continues after the block, please simply let me know on my talk page (or re-report here and feel free to notify me). ] (]) 21:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Will do. – ] (]) 21:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Given the thread below I think we should discuss a topic-ban here and now, rather than going thru AE. —] ] <sup><small>] ]</small></sup> 21:40, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{ec}} Perhaps. I was going to initially bring this to 3RRNB but decided to bring it here. – ] (]) 21:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === Removal of legitimately sourced information concerning ongoing Genocide in Gaza === | |||
| This is getting tiring for me. He is trying to make it ethnic and to portray Arabs as criminals. I want to know if this is going to continue, and if Pravda statements have any relevance to Rojava.--] (]) 22:29, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=Retaliatory. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:02, 6 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| :You are not allowed to delete sourced files before any agreement between you and other users '''''' but in the case of ] you deleted sourced content which I was added before, two times in a 24 hour (which is in one revert restriction law)''''''. You also added wrong information to a sourced content here''''''. Every claims I made was based on well-known creditable references. But while you were deleting pro-Kurdish poor-sourced contents from the article, when I asked you to do the same for the pro-Arabic poor-sourced contents too, you just gave unacceptable reasons. I also have a complaint about you and I hope for a consideration.--] (]) 22:47, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{userlinks|Bbb23}} has removed legitimately sourced information regarding the subject's involvement with the ]. Cheers ] (]) 21:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Good, now let the admins decide if Pravda opinion from 2013 have anything to do with Rojava. And actually, I am allowed to delete totally irrelevant info even if sourced. Pravda opinion on FSA in regard to Rojava is as relevant as a sourced sentence about Whale migration in the winter. On the other hand, you deleted sourced info that have everything to do with Rojava . | |||
| :What subject? ] (]) 21:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::By the way, when you asked me to delete liveleaks I did it , only to see you using it yourself. I also deleted the Kurdish leader of Kobani attack which you didnt like because it was irrelevant . | |||
| ::@], see the directly above discussion. '']''<sup>]</sup> 21:39, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::However, we agreed on asking the wikipedia reliable sources opinion on Kurdwatch reliability but you deleted every thing about them before doing that . This all prove my well intention and that your accusations are false. Not to mention that you just got out of a block and immediately went back to your normal behavior reverting here and completely reverting some of other editor edits here without discussing first. | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| ::And how do you say that this is adding false information . They were talking about Kobani and about ISIS attack on Kobani being the bloodiest since its offensive began. Its obvious they are talking about Kobani offensive !--] (]) 22:58, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| :::It's the community who decide that an information is relevant or irrelevant to the article, not you alone! If in your opinion adding an irrevelant content is a fulse error, so why did you do the same here ''''''? the totally unacceptable claim that you made which you claimed that the IP '''''' is mine, shows that how unfounded your claims are (this can be proved by an easy IP check by the administrators). Why do you think that you are excluded to respect to the community's laws?-- <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 23:18, 28 June 2015 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| ::::I added this to show you that you need to stop writing that ISIS is led by Arabs which is totally irrelevant to what the article is talking about. However, I deleted the info after thinking that you calmed and understood that this isnt a forum for racist and biased people . I was mistaken obviously. Anyway, its been more than 5 hours arguing with you and Im tired, let the admins decide because obviously we came to dead end. | |||
| ::::Now, you are denying that the IP is yours !!!! But you admited that it was you who removed those Info which are sourced by Kurdwatch . Are you planning on sockpupetry ?--] (]) 23:23, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::If I added something that ISIS is led by Arabs it was based on ] website not my own! But what about the same claim yo added that the battle fo Kurdish city of Kobani was led by a Kurdish ISIS? You use every mean to prevent to growing a useful and natural article.--] (]) 23:49, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::And how is it relevant to Rojava ?.--] (]) 23:43, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::OK I wait for the result. It's late at night and I must sleep. Bye.--] (]) 23:54, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::I've blocked this user indefinitely, as it's fairly obvious he's only hear to push an agenda. Not a single edit was in the least bit constructive; every single one was an obvious POV push, with most having an added element of blatant racism. We do not need to humor editors like that around here. ] (]<small> • </small>]) 03:08, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ---- | |||
| : ''The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> No further edits should be made to this discussion.''<!-- from ] --></div><br style="clear:both;" /> | |||
| == |
== Tendentious editor == | ||
| {{archivetop|result=Single warning issued with added comment. Immediate ] indef block to be expected if {{U|A3HARIBACARDI}} disregards. --] (]) 03:14, 29 June 2015 (UTC)}} | |||
| Newly registered user: inappropriate behavior towards other editors in user talk pages. | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| A new user who doesn't understand behavior policy yet nor any policy most likely. Can someone help? — ] (]) 23:27, 28 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Single purpose account {{Userlinks|NicolasTn}} is reverting again . They want to expand the lead which is disputed. They have been warned not to edit war. They claim to "restore deletion" most of which introduced by them to the lead, but in the process removing other sourced information and adding back errors. They know where to discuss edits but avoid doing so as much as they can, so I don't think enough discussion exists to initiate dispute resolution. . ] (]) 23:35, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :{{Done}}. Single warning issued with added comment. I would normally make an indeff block but let's see if this works. --] (]) 00:38, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :It looks like this article page history has been an edit war between the two of you. You both responded at ], why not try to continue that discussion or, eventually, try ]? Neither of you have had made much use of the article talk page which is where this discussion should be happening. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{archivebottom}} | |||
| ::I'll just note that this editor, who has only made 51 edits, hasn't edited in 3 days so they may not respond here immediately. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == |
== User:Adillia == | ||
| {{Userlinks|Aidillia}} | |||
| {{userlinks|Sylvain.nahas}} has no clue how the English Misplaced Pages works, can someone please help this person? Canvassing, removal of chunks of text from an AfD and so on, in definite need of guidance. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> | |||
| :I think the explanations/advice by admin {{U|JzG|Guy}} should be enough for the time being. --] (]) 00:44, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::I guess I (unwillingly) misbehaved! Kind like an elephant in a china shop. I apologize, and thank Guy for his understanding. I begin to perceive the complexity of it all, and assuming I'd like to learn these rules, I do not even know where to begin. Would you be kind enough to give some advices on that? Syl Syl 16:03, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| I've been avoiding that user ever since we were blocked for edit warring on ] but they keep going at every edits I made, specifically the recent ones on the files I uploaded like ] and ], where the file are uploaded in ] and abided ] but they keep messing up. I'm still at lost and not sure what's their problem with my edits. Additional: I will also hold accountability if I did ]. | |||
| == Legal threats == | |||
| Note: Aidillia "accidentally" archived this discussion. ] ] 02:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| So constitutes a clear legal threat, not against Misplaced Pages, but individuals at FBI, CIA, DOD and DHS. Whilst ] seems only to apply to legal threats against Misplaced Pages, I wasn't sure how to proceed. Seems they're ], as their talkpage is also a statement claiming to be to the United States Court of Appeals. Either they're very confused and think Misplaced Pages is affiliated with all these organisations, or they're ], and are trying to use Misplaced Pages as a vehicle for their legal threats against organisations. ] (]) 00:48, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :My interpretation is that he knows that Misplaced Pages is not affiliated with the US Government, and is using his sandbox and his talk page to ], in a way that is not in the scope of what Misplaced Pages is. However, this is really a matter for WMF Legal. ] (]) 00:59, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :I've many proof that shows you're the one who start the problem. <span style="font-family:Cursive">]<sup>(])</sup></span> 03:02, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *It was a soapbox/webhost. Deleted sandbox, blanked talk page (note that user page was already deleted with same info), and indef blocked/no talk page for wp:nothere. Since it wasn't direct at enwp, contacting legal@ really isn't required, but you certainly can if you think it is best. ] - ] 01:01, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::] you revert my correct upload which makes me so offended. <span style="font-family:Cursive">]<sup>(])</sup></span> 03:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::WMF concluded that it was ranting. ] (]) 18:31, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::] i upload as per their official social media. But rather used a poster version, and in the end i revert it. Same like what u did to me on ]. I don't know what is this user problem, first upload the incorrect poster than re-upload again with the correct poster which i already uploaded, then need a bot to resize it. (So unnecessary) <span style="font-family:Cursive">]<sup>(])</sup></span> 03:11, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I reverted that because it was too early to say that the poster is indeed the main one at that time when it was labeled as . You know that we rely more on ] ] ] rather on official website or social media accounts as they are ], so I don't know why you were offended by a revert. ] ] 04:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Why you don't say this on the summary? or u can just simply discuss it on my talk page. <span style="font-family:Cursive">]<sup>(])</sup></span> 04:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::] and ]. I have other ] in real life. ] ] 08:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::If you're that busy, please stop reverting my edits/uploads without any clear explanation. Just like what you did on ]. You will just engaged in ]. I've also seen you revert on ]; someone reverted it to the correct one (which I uploaded), but you still revert to your preferred version without leaving an edit summary. <span style="font-family:Cursive">]<sup>(])</sup></span> 08:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I have partially blocked both of you from editing filespace for 72 hours for edit warring. I think an IBAN might be needed here. ] (]/]) 03:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::'''Support''' an indefinite two-way interaction ban between D.18th and Aidillia. They've also been edit warring at ]. Also look at the move log there, which is ridiculous. These people need to stop fighting with each other. ] ] 06:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == |
== User:D.18th == | ||
| {{atop|1=Withdrawn. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| {{Userlinks|D.18th}} | |||
| <s>This user keeps coming to wherever i made an edit. And this user also ignore ].</s> <span style="font-family:Cursive">]<sup>(])</sup></span> 03:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{Userlinks|Johnwest1999}} | |||
| <s>:This user is the most number one who often comes in on my talk page first. But when I came to their talk page, i got restored or, worse, got reverted as vandalism.</s> <span style="font-family:Cursive">]<sup>(])</sup></span> 03:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Johnwest1999's common behavior includes: | |||
| :{{re|Aidilla}} You have failed to notify {{User|D.18th}} of this discussion, as the red notice at the top of the page clearly requires. I know they already reported you above, but they may not be aware of your one in return. You will need to show clear diffs supporting the allegations that you've made; expecting us to act on this report with no such evidence is likely going to result in ]. Regards, ]. (] | ]). 04:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Continually drafting hoax articles on his userpage. | |||
| ::], you can't remove a post from ANI once it has been responded to by another editor. If you want to rescind your complaint then strike it by using code, <nowiki><s>Comment</s></nowiki> which will show up as <s>Comment</s>. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Regularly running up to uw4-vandalism warnings, waiting a bit, and then removing them (, , ). Yes, it's his right to remove them, but people really need to check backlogs before starting over at uw1 again (<small>why I avoided Twinkle for so long</small>). | |||
| :::{{done}}, thanks! <span style="font-family:Cursive">]<sup>(])</sup></span> 05:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Unsourced changes to various articles, despite repeated explanations and warnings not to. | |||
| Some highlights of his behavior include: | |||
| * | |||
| * (something ) | |||
| * at ] | |||
| * -- to justify | |||
| * at ] | |||
| * | |||
| * after they warned him for (while ) to | |||
| * | |||
| * , for which he received final warnings | |||
| Can someone show me how his continued activity doesn't violate ]? If he is here to improve the encyclopedia, ]. ] (]) 03:22, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :With the exception of his user page, can someone show me how his edits since coming off his last block are disruptive? ] (]) 04:43, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::None ''yet'', but the block was for just the NASA/MLP bit and the talk archive blanking, not the totality of his (recurring) behavior. ] (]) 04:50, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *I kind of have to say that I do believe that a block will likely be inevitable here. It's kind of a question of how much ] we want to give them before we block. I kind of see him continuing to work on his hoax userspace page as kind of a bad sign. In any case, we do have to let him screw up again before blocking him. It's kind of an antsy waiting game at this point. ]] 10:30, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::I understand that he's not going to be blocked right away, but there's still enough reason that the community could propose some other solution in case he decides to do his usual tactic of waiting until everyone forgets about him. ] (]) 14:31, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *Like {{U|Tokyogirl79}} says : ], In the meantime we can slap a CSD on his user page. Anyone like to do the honours? ] (]) 14:40, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::Johnwest1999 has blanked this section and . Probably should be blocked for these actions alone. ]|] 11:20 am, Today (UTC−4) | |||
| :*] has gone to work, as Johnwest1999 just vandalized the discussion about himself. {{Diff|Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents|669195344|669194999}} ~ <b>]</b><sup>]</sup> 15:18, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::*I've blocked indef. Enough of . --] <sup>]</sup> 15:20, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Well that was quick. J has been blocked by {{u|NeilN}}. ]|] 15:21, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| == User:Pudeo == | |||
| User:Pudeo | |||
| The user is currently engaged in repeated vandalism-Blanking(potentially) by inserting his potential bias opinion into his reason for doings so; I don't particularly blame him however. We are currently debating Misplaced Pages's rules/position regarding ] vs ] of a source article establishing a living person's applicability to a wiki when a news source agrees with a label; we are both uncertain whom is correct on this discussion/situation. All concerned would appreciate an experienced editor or administrative perspective. | |||
| We are both adhering to ] in our perspectives in the ]. | |||
| The wiki: ] | |||
| The offending DIFF: | |||
| ] (]) 03:17, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::"'''Bias<u>ed</u>''' opinion", not "bias opinion". ] (]) 08:05, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :Hi. In my opinion the right venue is ], as we're labeling the incumbent Prime Minister of New Zealand ] a ]. Based on , it says " has been labelled a hair fetishist", but not by whom. Was it a single Twitter user or so? The BLP implications on a vague source are more serious than what can be gained by listing a prime minister as a hair fetishist. --]] 03:48, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::While your opinion is nice and all, it is not fact or a source. "we're labeling the incumbent Prime Minister of New Zealand ] a ]." This is an incorrect statement, ] is labeling ] as such on behalf of their undisclosed sources in a published article and we are referencing their article. The user does not appear to distinguish the difference in his own opinion. As such, the "repeated" implications of his actions and argument would jeopardise the integrity of all credible news sources based on ] on Wiki. "more serious than what can be gained by listing a prime minister as a hair fetishist" what is considered more/gained/serious, is not for you to be judge, jury and executioner of, it is what can be referenced correctly. Thus your action's appear to be a bias attempt at blanking and in need of administrative clarification. Or potentially my own, not my place to judge. ] (]) 04:37, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::: Pudeo has done nothing wrong. The content is probably not appropriate content for that article - see ]. It is not vandalism to remove inappropriate content - see ]. The appropriate place (if any) for that content is ], where I see it already occupies about one and a half lines - about all it actually warrants. ] (]) 06:15, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| == User:Figura2000 == | |||
| {{atop|User blocked and told to behave on their return. ] (])(]) 11:54, 29 June 2015 (UTC)}} | |||
| {{U|Figura2000}} has made a number of moves to the page on the 2016 Olympic Stadium, now at ]. The background is that one of the tenants, the football club ], has been allowed to refer to the stadium as ''Estádio Nilton Santos'' but the stadium remains officially the ''Estádio Olímpico Municipal João Havelange''. According to the last two RMs, the consensus has been to call the article ''Estádio Olímpico João Havelange'' per common usage. Would I be right to revert to the previous page name without opening a new RM? ] (]) 03:42, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| : There was a discussion at ] with a February close. There was protection which expired on May 20th but Figura2000 seems to have popped up in June and just moved the pages without any further discussion. Pages removed and locked, editor has been blocked for a block for 24 hours with a warning to knock it off or start another RM. -- ] (]) 05:48, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | {{abot}} | ||
| == User:Azar Altman and User:Farruh Samadov == | |||
| == Newly created disruption-only accounts: urgent action needed == | |||
| *{{userlinks|Azar Altman}} | |||
| {{atop|{{resolved}}}} | |||
| *{{userlinks|Farruh Samadov}} | |||
| {{vandal|AKHistorian}}, {{vandal|ILiriaALB}} share a typical disruptive pattern and continuously remove the alternative names in a limited number of articles. Seeing that their target articles are mostly the same ones it appears that both of the accounts are involved in some short of meatpuppetry, not to mention they were both created the very same day (June 20). It appears that indef blocks can't be avoided in this case, since they avoid any kind of talkpage participation and continue this kind of activity.] (]) 05:55, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{user|Azar Altman}} was ] for uncivil conduct and MOS violations. Shortley after their initial 72-hour block on December 27, a new user named {{user|Farruh Samadov}} appeared. One of their edits at ] is , the capital of Uzbekistan, in violation of ]. They did this three more times (, , ). And then Azar Altman reverted again twice (, ), leading me to suspect that Farruh Samadov is a ]. Both users edit in the Uzbekistan topic area and both user talk pages have warnings for MoS violations, but Samadov has never used uncivil language, as Altman did on their user talk and in their second edit I linked. –] (]]) 04:06, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Both are {{confirmed}} socks of one another and have been indefinitely blocked. Best, ] <sup>]</sup> 06:03, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| ==Gial Ackbar == | |||
| {{archivetop|status=Duplicate topic|reason={{nac}} See above thread "Johnwest1999." ] (]) 15:20, 29 June 2015 (UTC)}} | |||
| ] There is currently a discussion at ] regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. <!--Template:ANI-notice--> Thank you. | |||
| Gial Ackbar's behavior is going wrong. I would mind banning him from the site. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 15:11, 29 June 2015 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| :The reporter is trying to get revange that I reported him for vandalism once. Please bann him. ] (]) 15:16, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{archivebottom}} | |||
| == London bus routes == | |||
| {{user5|PowerofP}} | |||
| I have just reverted a number of less than helpful edits to an article called ] changed the wording from ] to ]. I checked the two links and they redirect to different articles ] redirects to ] an article created on 12 May 2015, by ] an account | |||
| The article ] was by ] at 15:35, 29 April 2011 to ] | |||
| There followed series of edit involving ], ], ], ] until ] indefinitely protected the page on 20 September 2014 at 11:05 with the comment "Protected London Buses route 21: Persistent sock puppetry on a large number of related articles". JBW is on a wikibreak at the moment otherwise ] would have been my first port of call. As I am not fully versed in this particular set of edit, I will leave it to other to see if the article ] is a case for wack a rat, or if ] should be redirect to it. | |||
| See also ] and ] | |||
| :I opened a a couple hours ago. It is indeed highly suspicious that Farruh Samadov was created only a few hours after this block was imposed. ] (]) 04:11, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| -- ] (]) 15:44, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Pinging @] who was involved in the prior ANI and performed the block. ] ] 04:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Suggest these accounts to be blocked as soon as possible if sockpupperty is confirmed. ] (]) 05:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::], yes, that's how that goes. ] (]) 13:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Regardless of SOCK, suggest that Azar receive another block of at least a week for continued disruption shortly after the block was lifted. They were reverted twice (as noted above) for the same edit by two different editors (Laundry and Melik). Their most recent edit summary was {{tq|Stop discriminating by violating Misplaced Pages rules.}} when MOS was specifically mentioned in the prior edit summary and they are abundantly notified about edit warring and not reverting-reverts. ] ] 05:57, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Sockpuppetry in Philippine articles == | |||
| :This would appear to also involve ], created June 25, which appears to restore the pre-redirected ] article under the new, slightly different title, while retaining the bold "London Buses route 295" in the article's lead. Both articles, along with a great many others, were deemed non-notable and redirected to the ] article, yet the same eventually blocked user (Ibsiadkgneoeb, Asbeto4, SeatF22, Delboy18) kept bringing them back. I'm guessing that the slight variation in article names from the standard is designed to prevent the articles from showing up in Watchlists. I have redirected both to the ] article. I expect to submit a sockpuppet investigation shortly (] if nothing else). ] (]) 16:30, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Request an immediate and extended range block for {{User|49.145.5.109}}, a certified sock of LTA ] from editing ] and other related pages pending a result of a protection request, the second to have been filed for that page after the first instance of sockpuppetry by the same account was deemed not serious enough. See also ]. ] (]) 07:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Personal attacks and threats from Tarc == | |||
| == ] == | |||
| Its threatening edit summary is: "no YOU did not remove it, I DID. If you wish to participate in this discussio then by all means do so, but '''you will cease tagging my comments in any way, shape, or form. Immediately'''."<br> | |||
| Fact is I ; Tarc . (Where "it" is a personal attack by Tarc on Coretheapple.) | |||
| it followed on the heels of <br> | |||
| I commented on its threatening edit summary, and Tarc replied flippantly , '''stating''' that he ignores all tag-based warnings about policy violations!!! | |||
| Did I do something wrong in the way I removed the personal attack (diff 2 above), or corrected misinformation, reiterating that I removed the personal attack (). Tarc reverted that reiteration note (diff 1 above) and I have decided not to restore it because I feel threatened, but ask that my note be restored)<p> | |||
| Admins: | |||
| *Please confirm/refute that I removed a personal attack by Tarc on ] <br> | |||
| *Please consider enforcement action regarding the policies Tarc was '''recently''' warned about, including ] (), ] () , ] () - by ], and ] (). | |||
| Why keep around a user who is this much trouble for the project?--]<sup>(]•])</sup> 18:25, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| VZ Vermögenszentrum - this user named after their ] is heavily editing their bank wikipedia page. should be banned or warned at least. --] (]) 12:00, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Wow, this user has engaged in edit warring (e.g., ) and battleground conduct (e.g., , , , ). Tarc has already been sanctioned in three previous cases (, , ), according to ArbCom (11 ArbCom members) . Tarc was "strongly warned that should future misconduct occur in any topic area, he may be banned from the English Misplaced Pages by motion of the Arbitration Committee", was topic-banned indefinitely, and was blocked for 3 days (AE) for violating that ban in February. (). <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> | |||
| :It is nearly six months since they made an edit. ] (]) 12:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::yes, you are right. If I see something similar in the future, where should I drop a notice? ] (]) 14:00, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Usernames for administrator attention (WP:UAA, I think), would be the first place to go, followed by WP:COIN, then depending on user response either to the renaming page or to AIV. ] (]) 14:24, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I will jot it down. many thanks ] (]) 14:45, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I would rather be left alone, to be perfectly honest, and the claim of "threats" is 100% horseshit, and ther ewere no personal attacks aimed at Elvey either. Yes, I said something untowards last night to Coretheapple, then the OP above left a templated message which I removed unread as I usually do, ] and all. The next day, today, OP removes my message entirely. I reverted that BUT redacted the problematic portion, and that should have been the end of it. But this person (who was not involved at all in the discussion) seems intent on claiming some sort of brownie point by "redacted by Elvey". I removed that, and warned the user on my talk page thread to knock it off. | |||
| ::Let's observe here that neither the recipient of my now-regrettable remark nor anyone else in the discussion saw it as so egregious as to warrant redaction, only one if I recall observed that it was sub-optimal. I don't take kindly to drive-by busybodies, and the fact that I then struck my own comment realy renders this moot. 2 meritless ANIs in several days is 2 more than I care to deal with. ] (]) 18:41, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| == SeanM1997 == | |||
| :::First, why is Coretheapple not bringing this request? Second, where are the personal attacks and threats alleged here? ] <sup>]] ]]</sup> 18:45, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| @ ], yes it makes it much worse that he contributes bugger all to content too. Unfortunately wikipedia is full of people like him. Perhaps then Tarc if you find two ANI posts on you in two days intolerable you should either change your attitude or kindly leave and do us all a favour.♦ ] 18:48, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{User|SeanM1997}} | |||
| :Yep, this is the ANI I remember not-so-fondly; it's like that scene in ] when everyone with a beef lines up to slap, stab, hang, shoot, etc...the hysterical passenger. ] (]) 18:52, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :Looks like you picked a bad day to stop sniffing glue. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 19:27, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Wait, there was an ANI you remembered fondly then? ;-) @Elvey, Still waiting for a reply to my question above. ] <sup>]] ]]</sup> 19:02, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::: Yes, I would like to know why Coretheapple isn't bringing this, and what on earth it's got to do with the OP. ] 19:11, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| *{{ping|Elvey}} In my mind, re-factoring the talk page comment to begin with was fine, but edit-warring to keep your admonishment in after Tarc cleaned it up is insane. Just drop it. ]! 19:30, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| User seems to think that sourcing is only clutter and keeps removing source requests and sometimes even sources. This despite ] and ]. Warnings and request completely fall on deaf ears. This is damaging the encyclopedia. See for example on Manchester Airport which show (in the edit summery) that he has no clue about what independent sources are. And where he removed sources for the connections with some unsourced additions and a source for the airline. | |||
| == Repeated addition of unsourced POV and unsourced/unexplained changes after prior block for same. == | |||
| Combined with ], giving him a ], I think something has to be done. <span style="border:1px solid green; padding:0 2px">] ]</span> 12:34, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{u|79.106.15.112}} – previously blocked for POV on films and other unsourced changes. More of the same. Editor's prior block on June 14 (via AIV) was for unsourced POV in various film articles and a few unsourced numerical changes. Since the block, it is more of the same. | |||
| : | |||
| Request for new block at AIV rejected as "not vandalism". Are we no longer using AIV for instances of clear disruption that are not "vandalism"? - <span style="color:#D70270;background-color:white;">Sum</span><span style="color:#734F96;background-color:white;">mer</span><span style="color:#0038A8;background-color:white;">PhD</span><sup>]</sup> 19:27, 29 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
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Cross-wiki harassment and transphobia from User:DarwIn
User:DarwIn, a known transphobic editor from pt.wiki, is harassing me here after his actions led me to leave that wiki permanently. He has also harassed me on Wikimedia Commons. I don't know what to do anymore. I just want to edit about transgender topics in peace. This is severely impacting my mental health. Skyshiftertalk 13:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You don't seem to have notified the other editor. This is mandatory and this section may be closed if you fail to do so. Use {{subst:ANI-notice}}~~~~ on that user's talk page. Additionally, you don't seem to have provided specific diffs demonstrating harassment. Please do so. --Yamla (talk) 13:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- On pt.wiki, DarwIn proposed the deletion of articles I created about transgender topics (Thamirys Nunes and Minha Criança Trans), using transphobic arguments, including misgendering and questioning the validity of transgender children. After translating these articles to en.wiki, he is targeting the DYK nomination, again focusing on his personal transphobic beliefs - as it shows, he doesn't even know how DYK works. He insisted multiple times trying to include his transphobic comment on that page and has just edited it again. On Commons, for extra context, DarwIn unilaterally deleted images related to these articles, despite being clearly involved in the dispute.
- Again, I just want to collaborate with trans topics in peace. Skyshiftertalk 13:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- We can't help you with pt.wikipedia.org or with commons, only with en.wikipedia.org. Please provide specific diffs for en.wikipedia.org. --Yamla (talk) 13:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Yes. However, context is important. This is harassment that began on pt.wiki, has spread to Commons, and is now here. The history has been provided, but, sure, I can provide the diffs instead. He has unilaterally edited the DYK page and put a "disagree", despite this being not how DYK works. This is because he really doesn't know, as he only sporadically edits here and only came back to harass me. His comment is explicitly transphobic and doesn't focus on the article itself at all. After his comment was reverted by me, he insisted saying that I shouldn't call it transphobia, despite it being transphobia. After being reverted again, he reincluded the comment. I asked him to stop harassing me, but he has edited the page again.
- I just don't want to be targeted by that editor here. I've left pt.wiki in great part for that reason. I just want to edit about transgender topics in peace here. Skyshiftertalk 13:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- We can't help you with pt.wikipedia.org or with commons, only with en.wikipedia.org. Please provide specific diffs for en.wikipedia.org. --Yamla (talk) 13:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Looks like yet another cross-wiki troll by this user. Already blocked at the Portuguese Wikipédia and Wikimedia Commons, the account is now promoting their POV here, including spreading lies, hideous slurs and baseless accusations against me like "known transphobic", after two of their creations were taken to community evaluation at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for lacking notability. The user is also a known sockpuppeter, with an open case for sockpuppetry at the Portuguese Wikipédia. In any case, I'm not interested in pursuing this case in yet another project apart from the strictly needed, so do as you please. Darwin 13:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I have been blocked on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for contesting that transphobia was called "valid criticism" on ANI and on Commons for literally nothing. Skyshiftertalk 13:28, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Questioning a women that declared her 4 year old son as trangender after he refused to play with cars and Marvel puppets and preferred what his mother calls "girl stuff" doesn't fit in any reasonable definition of transphobia, a word which you are well known for abusing whenever anyone criticizes you at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages and elsewhere. In any case, I don't think this is the place for this discussion, so this will be my last direct answer to you you'll see in this board. Darwin 13:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- And here's explicit transphobia. It's her daughter, no matter how much you hate the idea of trans children existing. The story you've told is also completely distorted. Skyshiftertalk 13:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Questioning a women that declared her 4 year old son as trangender after he refused to play with cars and Marvel puppets and preferred what his mother calls "girl stuff" doesn't fit in any reasonable definition of transphobia, a word which you are well known for abusing whenever anyone criticizes you at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages and elsewhere. In any case, I don't think this is the place for this discussion, so this will be my last direct answer to you you'll see in this board. Darwin 13:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I have been blocked on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for contesting that transphobia was called "valid criticism" on ANI and on Commons for literally nothing. Skyshiftertalk 13:28, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Comment I simply don't want this editor targeting me with transphobic stuff here after he target me on pt.wiki (and left it permanently in great part for that reason) and Commons. I am considering taking medication because of these events. Skyshiftertalk 13:45, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Comment I would suggest Darwin review MOS:GENDERID. If the child uses she/her pronouns we should not be referring to her with he/him pronouns. Simonm223 (talk) 15:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 I would suggest you to recall we ate talking about a 4 year child whose social gender was chosen by their mother after the child refused to play with what she calls "boy toys", such as toy cars and Marvel puppets. If that's not enough that this kind of gender prejudice was already abhorrent and condemned even in the generation of my babyboomer parents, one of the first things we teached as LGBT activists in the 1990s was that our parents don't own us nor our sexuality or our gender. So please let's refrain from doing that kind of suggestions when what is in question is the gender identity of a 4 year old attributed by their mother. Ok? Darwin 15:29, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn, the bottom line is that you don't get to question that. As a complete stranger to that child you have no right to do so, plus this is not the place to even enter into that discussion. How does complete strangers on the internet talking about a child's gender do them any good? This isn't the place anyway so please just follow guidelines, which have been put in place for a good reason. Blue Sonnet (talk) 15:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I questioned the mother, not the child. I've no idea why we are discussing this here, anyway. Darwin 15:42, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- We're here because this "questioning" appears to be bleeding into transphobic harassment. I would support an indef based on edits like this Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I questioned the mother, not the child. I've no idea why we are discussing this here, anyway. Darwin 15:42, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn, the bottom line is that you don't get to question that. As a complete stranger to that child you have no right to do so, plus this is not the place to even enter into that discussion. How does complete strangers on the internet talking about a child's gender do them any good? This isn't the place anyway so please just follow guidelines, which have been put in place for a good reason. Blue Sonnet (talk) 15:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- The story told above is completely distorted to fit the transphobic's narrative. Simon223, if you want to get the full story, read Thamirys Nunes' page or read its sources (with the help of a translator if needed). Skyshiftertalk 15:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would like to suggest we follow MOS regardless of people's personal opinion of early childhood gender expression. Simonm223 (talk) 15:38, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Rephrase that as mothers opinions on their 4 year old baby gender expression. Darwin 15:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Darwin - I suggest you drop whatever agenda you have, treat other editors with respect, and comply with our MOS (including MOS:GENDERID) - otherwise you will be blocked. GiantSnowman 15:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so. Darwin 16:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Just so everyone knows, the facts are being quite distorted here. It wasn't really an imposition — her daughter, did not want to play with "boy toys", even when being forced by her mom. That's why the mom said she plays with "girl toys" and everything else. The references on said articles weren't thoroughly read, apparently by everybody here.
- Adding to this too: DarwIn, in some edits to the article in the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, added "quotes" on the word trans and some other parts of the articly, as if was his duty to judge if the girl is trans or not. Anyways, I think what happened in ptwiki stays there.
- And I want to make clear that I'm only stating the things that happened so everyone knows. I do not support blocking him. Eduardo G. 16:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so. Darwin 16:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Four year olds are generally not considered babies. You really need to drop this - and probably to avoid editing in the WP:GENSEX area.Simonm223 (talk) 16:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would suggest a topic ban is imposed. GiantSnowman 16:09, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would support a topic ban from WP:GENSEX. Simonm223 (talk) 16:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Given that much of what they've been saying is about living people I think we would need to expand this to at least cover all other BLPs until such a time as they have demonstrated that they actually understand that the BLP policy applies to non-article spaces on wiki as well as articles. Overall this seems more like NOTHERE than something which a topic ban can remedy. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Topic ban from GENSEX and BLP, broadly construed, is fine for me. GiantSnowman 16:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I do understand this Misplaced Pages rules on BLP. Isn't that not enough for you? Darwin 16:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Given your comments here and at DYK, you clearly do not. GiantSnowman 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You seem to have missed the part when I very clearly stated there that I retired myself from that DYN debate. Darwin 16:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Given your comments here and at DYK, you clearly do not. GiantSnowman 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Given that much of what they've been saying is about living people I think we would need to expand this to at least cover all other BLPs until such a time as they have demonstrated that they actually understand that the BLP policy applies to non-article spaces on wiki as well as articles. Overall this seems more like NOTHERE than something which a topic ban can remedy. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @GiantSnowman nice try, but I don't edit on that topic, anyway. Let's calm down and enjoy the Christmas season. Darwin 16:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- This is the opposite of the attitude you need to adopt if you want to remain an editor in good standing. Remeber if you didn't edit on that topic we wouldn't be having this discussion, we're here because of edits you made in that topic area. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Then get your facts right, as I never edited any biography on that topic here, at least that I can recall. Darwin 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You fundementally misunderstand the scope of WP:BLP and the concept of topic area as well. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Look, I'm at a family gathering and I really have nor time nor patience for this kind of endless debates, specially on culture wars topics. I've already retired from DYN yesterday but you seem to insist on pursuing this kind of Salem witch hunting here, but really, I'll not be anymore part of that. Roger and over, happy new year. Darwin 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think you may be getting different editors confused, I was not a participant at DYN. I did not pursue you to here. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- it was a collective you. Darwin 16:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- The collective you did not pursue you here either. Only the OP appears to cross over. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- it was a collective you. Darwin 16:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think you may be getting different editors confused, I was not a participant at DYN. I did not pursue you to here. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Look, I'm at a family gathering and I really have nor time nor patience for this kind of endless debates, specially on culture wars topics. I've already retired from DYN yesterday but you seem to insist on pursuing this kind of Salem witch hunting here, but really, I'll not be anymore part of that. Roger and over, happy new year. Darwin 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You fundementally misunderstand the scope of WP:BLP and the concept of topic area as well. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Then get your facts right, as I never edited any biography on that topic here, at least that I can recall. Darwin 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- This is the opposite of the attitude you need to adopt if you want to remain an editor in good standing. Remeber if you didn't edit on that topic we wouldn't be having this discussion, we're here because of edits you made in that topic area. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would support a topic ban from WP:GENSEX. Simonm223 (talk) 16:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I noticed this yesterday but intentionally didn't mention it since I felt there had already been enough nonsense. But since DarwIn is still defending their offensive comments below, I'd note that the child was 4 years old in 2019. It's now 2024 and they've evidentally seen a medical professional. If at any time they express a desire for a different gender identity we will of course respect that whatever her mother says; but at this time BLP full supports respecting a 8-9 year old and not treating her as a baby. Nil Einne (talk) 22:49, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- None of this is relevant. We follow sources and MOS:GENDERID. There is obviously no Misplaced Pages position on when someone is or is not a "baby" and should have their self-identification reproduced in their biography. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 12:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would suggest a topic ban is imposed. GiantSnowman 16:09, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Darwin - I suggest you drop whatever agenda you have, treat other editors with respect, and comply with our MOS (including MOS:GENDERID) - otherwise you will be blocked. GiantSnowman 15:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Rephrase that as mothers opinions on their 4 year old baby gender expression. Darwin 15:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would like to suggest we follow MOS regardless of people's personal opinion of early childhood gender expression. Simonm223 (talk) 15:38, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 I would suggest you to recall we ate talking about a 4 year child whose social gender was chosen by their mother after the child refused to play with what she calls "boy toys", such as toy cars and Marvel puppets. If that's not enough that this kind of gender prejudice was already abhorrent and condemned even in the generation of my babyboomer parents, one of the first things we teached as LGBT activists in the 1990s was that our parents don't own us nor our sexuality or our gender. So please let's refrain from doing that kind of suggestions when what is in question is the gender identity of a 4 year old attributed by their mother. Ok? Darwin 15:29, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Comment I would suggest Darwin review MOS:GENDERID. If the child uses she/her pronouns we should not be referring to her with he/him pronouns. Simonm223 (talk) 15:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- They cannot be trusted. Above they said "I'm retiring myself from this topic" and yet has continued to post. GiantSnowman 16:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I've continued to post where? Darwin 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I've already walked away from it yesterday, why you're insisting on that lie? Darwin 16:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You are continuing to post here, ergo you have not "walked away" from it, have you? GiantSnowman 16:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn The issue here is not whether you are right or wrong. The issue here is that you are violating a community guideline. That's it. Either you stop or you will end up getting blocked. I have my own disagreements with that guideline, and as a consequence I simply stay far away from those articles or discussions. You should too. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- How can I get out of this endless cycle, if each time you ask me to stop and I say I already stopped yesterday, you came back chastising me for having answered again? That's not fair. Darwin 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Simply post a note at the bottom of the discussion stating that given your respectful disagreement with parts of MOS:GENDERID that you will voluntarily avoid any articles or discussions where that is, or may become, an issue. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Which discussion are you talking about? Now I'm confused. Can't you be more clear? Darwin 16:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn This one. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Ad Orientem I've already done it, but you keep writing below it, so it's not in the bottom anymore. Darwin 17:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn Easiest way to defuse this is to post a bolded and outdented statement at the very bottom of the this discussion stating you understand MOSGENDERID and will avoid pages or discussions where it may become an issue, and that you will avoid as far as possible, interacting with Skyshifter. If there are other issues here, I have no comment on those. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, here it goes again: "if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so" Darwin 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- That is not an appropriate statement, it has your bias/agenda throughout it. Very concerning. GiantSnowman 18:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, here it goes again: "if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so" Darwin 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn Easiest way to defuse this is to post a bolded and outdented statement at the very bottom of the this discussion stating you understand MOSGENDERID and will avoid pages or discussions where it may become an issue, and that you will avoid as far as possible, interacting with Skyshifter. If there are other issues here, I have no comment on those. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Ad Orientem I've already done it, but you keep writing below it, so it's not in the bottom anymore. Darwin 17:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn This one. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Which discussion are you talking about? Now I'm confused. Can't you be more clear? Darwin 16:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Simply post a note at the bottom of the discussion stating that given your respectful disagreement with parts of MOS:GENDERID that you will voluntarily avoid any articles or discussions where that is, or may become, an issue. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- How can I get out of this endless cycle, if each time you ask me to stop and I say I already stopped yesterday, you came back chastising me for having answered again? That's not fair. Darwin 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn The issue here is not whether you are right or wrong. The issue here is that you are violating a community guideline. That's it. Either you stop or you will end up getting blocked. I have my own disagreements with that guideline, and as a consequence I simply stay far away from those articles or discussions. You should too. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You are continuing to post here, ergo you have not "walked away" from it, have you? GiantSnowman 16:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Heres the main point I can see RE "Cross-wiki harassment." If DarwIn claims they do not regularly edit this topic space and had not previously participated in DYK discussions how did they come to find themselves there just in time to oppose the contribution of an editor they had extensive negative interactions with on another wiki? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- that's old stuff, I already posted a note there retiring from that space yesterday. I'm really puzzled on what all this fuss is about. Darwin 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- This isn't about the transphobia, this is about the harassment (they are seperate by apparently related claims). So how did you find yourself commenting on that DYK? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I expressed my disagreement with that note, justifying with my opinion, and there's not even any misgendering issue there, AFAIK. Not sure if expressing that opinion here is forbidden or not, but in any case I've posted a note retiring from it already yesterday, so I've no idea what more do you want. Darwin 16:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- And how did you become aware that there was something to disagree with? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- precisely because we are currently in the process of evaluating the notability of that bio and association she created at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, so it's just natural that related issues on other wikis get monitored too, that's part of the process. You don't agree with that evaluation, and that's perfectly OK. To each Misplaced Pages their own stuff 🤷 Darwin 16:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Please link the diff from portuguese wiki where the DYK for this wiki came up. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:59, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- it's the wikipedia articles created yesterday that we are evaluating, not any kind of DYK note. Darwin 17:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- How is this a related issue then? It sure looks like you followed this particular user around Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back no, I followed the articles, as they were also created here yesterday. Is that so hard to understand? Darwin 17:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Because of edits like this . Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- answering an accusation of being a dictator after flushing away the copyviios she uploaded. What's the problem? Darwin 17:19, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- No, that diff is the undo. Thats you edit warring apparent harassment onto someone's talk page on another wiki with a kissing face as the edit summary... In that context this does look like cross wiki harassment. Do you have a better explanation? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Just answered the troll there with another, as I was on the middle of something else. Yes, I know, not the nicest thing to do, but whatever. And why are we discussing Commons here now, anyway? Darwin 17:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- We're discussing cross wiki harassment, that makes edits on any wiki relevant to the discussion. You appear to have been harassing them on commons and then followed them here to continue the harassment because a temporary block there (which you appear to have had a hand in) prevented them from being active there. You absolutely can not do that. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I answered a troll, if there was any harassment was from that account towards me, not the opposite. Please don't invert the situation. Darwin 17:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Your edits on enwiki had nothing to do with trolling or other behavioral issues from that account, if your edits on enwiki were to address valid concerns informed by your experience on other wikis we would not be having this discussion. It was also you restoring your comment which they removed from their talk page, thats you trolling them and it makes their dictator claim look not like trolling but rather accurate. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I confess I've no idea why we are still having this discussion, as they were just that. But for the 50th time, these interactions have stopped long ago, and for a similar amount of time I've devotedly accepted and committed to all your rules. Darwin 18:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- In my opinion we're still having this discussion because you are stonewalling, perhaps its a language barrier but you don't come off as trustworthy or engaging in good faith. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I confess I've no idea why we are still having this discussion, as they were just that. But for the 50th time, these interactions have stopped long ago, and for a similar amount of time I've devotedly accepted and committed to all your rules. Darwin 18:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Your edits on enwiki had nothing to do with trolling or other behavioral issues from that account, if your edits on enwiki were to address valid concerns informed by your experience on other wikis we would not be having this discussion. It was also you restoring your comment which they removed from their talk page, thats you trolling them and it makes their dictator claim look not like trolling but rather accurate. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I answered a troll, if there was any harassment was from that account towards me, not the opposite. Please don't invert the situation. Darwin 17:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- We're discussing cross wiki harassment, that makes edits on any wiki relevant to the discussion. You appear to have been harassing them on commons and then followed them here to continue the harassment because a temporary block there (which you appear to have had a hand in) prevented them from being active there. You absolutely can not do that. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Just answered the troll there with another, as I was on the middle of something else. Yes, I know, not the nicest thing to do, but whatever. And why are we discussing Commons here now, anyway? Darwin 17:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- No, that diff is the undo. Thats you edit warring apparent harassment onto someone's talk page on another wiki with a kissing face as the edit summary... In that context this does look like cross wiki harassment. Do you have a better explanation? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- answering an accusation of being a dictator after flushing away the copyviios she uploaded. What's the problem? Darwin 17:19, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Because of edits like this . Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back no, I followed the articles, as they were also created here yesterday. Is that so hard to understand? Darwin 17:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- How is this a related issue then? It sure looks like you followed this particular user around Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- it's the wikipedia articles created yesterday that we are evaluating, not any kind of DYK note. Darwin 17:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Please link the diff from portuguese wiki where the DYK for this wiki came up. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:59, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- precisely because we are currently in the process of evaluating the notability of that bio and association she created at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, so it's just natural that related issues on other wikis get monitored too, that's part of the process. You don't agree with that evaluation, and that's perfectly OK. To each Misplaced Pages their own stuff 🤷 Darwin 16:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- And how did you become aware that there was something to disagree with? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I expressed my disagreement with that note, justifying with my opinion, and there's not even any misgendering issue there, AFAIK. Not sure if expressing that opinion here is forbidden or not, but in any case I've posted a note retiring from it already yesterday, so I've no idea what more do you want. Darwin 16:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- This isn't about the transphobia, this is about the harassment (they are seperate by apparently related claims). So how did you find yourself commenting on that DYK? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- that's old stuff, I already posted a note there retiring from that space yesterday. I'm really puzzled on what all this fuss is about. Darwin 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
I believe it may help too, if Darwin will promise to avoid interacting on main space with Skyshifter. GoodDay (talk) 17:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. Not that I ever interacted with her there AFAIK, anyway. Darwin 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think Darwin should avoid interacting with Skyshifter on all spaces on en.wikipedia.org. It's clear Darwin has made Skyshifter feel uncomfortable, and I don't appreciate it. Isaidnoway (talk) 17:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Isaidnoway I absolutely agree with that, I'm not doing any sort of interaction with that account anymore. I'm still answering here because you keep mentioning me. Darwin 17:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Since you "absolutely agree", then I will take your comment here as acknowledging a voluntary one-way interaction ban, broadly construed, as in effect. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Isaidnoway yes, that's correct. Darwin 18:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Since you "absolutely agree", then I will take your comment here as acknowledging a voluntary one-way interaction ban, broadly construed, as in effect. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Isaidnoway I absolutely agree with that, I'm not doing any sort of interaction with that account anymore. I'm still answering here because you keep mentioning me. Darwin 17:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think a one-way interaction ban between the editors would be for the best here. While I think there is some merit to a Gender and Sexuality tban, as some of Darwin's recent edits appear to be about righting great wrongs in the topic area, I believe the interaction ban would solve most of the issues raised here. Isabelle Belato 17:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- which "edits"? The 1 or 2 comments in the DYK section? Darwin 18:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- All your edits related to the subject, both here and on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages. Isabelle Belato 18:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Isabelle Belato You're evaluating my edits on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages to punish me in the English Misplaced Pages? Darwin 19:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- When there is cross-wiki harassment, then yes, your activity on other wikis is relevant. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @The Bushranger Can you explain how my general edit history in wiki.pt is relevant in any way to an accusation of cross-wiki harassment? Darwin 23:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- When there is cross-wiki harassment, then yes, your activity on other wikis is relevant. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Isabelle Belato You're evaluating my edits on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages to punish me in the English Misplaced Pages? Darwin 19:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- All your edits related to the subject, both here and on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages. Isabelle Belato 18:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- which "edits"? The 1 or 2 comments in the DYK section? Darwin 18:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
Would recommend that Darwin walk away from the general topic. This would avoid any need for topic bans. GoodDay (talk) 16:20, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Clarification
- Hello @Nil Einne - and others. Please recall that my opinion was specifically over the declaration of the child gender by her mother at or before her 4th birthday, by her mother own account based on classical gender stereotypes. It's specifically about that. I've no way to know what gender the child is or will eventually be in the future, and gladly accept whatever she chooses - as I would if she was my own child. I've eventually been harsher than needed in the DYK comment because that specific situation where a minor is extensively exposed with full name, photographs, etc. by her parents on social networks, newspapers and whatelse is generally condemned in my country, to the point of eventually configuring a crime here. Obviously Misplaced Pages has nothing to do with that when it comes to the spread of information, but in my view - obviously wrong, from the general reaction here - exposing the child in yet another place, let alone wiki.en main page, was a bit too much.
- As for misgendering, I am one of the founders and former board member of ILGA Portugal, which after 30 years still is the main LGBT association in Portugal, though not an active member for many years for moving away from Lisbon, where it's headquartered. For more than 30 years I've been on the fight against homophobia and transphobia, not specially in Misplaced Pages, but on the streets, where it was needed in the 1990s here in Portugal, when the whole LGBT thing was just starting and most people couldn't even tell the difference between a drag queen and a trangender woman. I was beaten up, lost my 2 front teeth on homo/transphobic street fights (the first one at 18 years old, for publicly defending from booers in the audience a trangender girl which was acting at a local bar )- and whatelse. I never had even the least impulse to misgender any of the many trangender people that always have been around me, and the few situations where that may have happened were online with people that I knew for years as being one gender, and took a while to sink they are another, because online there's not the ever helping visual clue. So it's kind of disheartening to be treated like this in a strange place by people I don't know just because I expressed an (harsh, agreed) opinion defending the age of consent for children, and condemning their parents interference on that.
- The TBan is not very relevant for me, as I seldom edit here and despite the activism of my past days LGBT is not my primary interest on Misplaced Pages, but I'm considerably saddened by the misunderstandings, bad faith assumptions, false accusations that have been told here about me, though eventually the flaw is not in the whole group that has their own rules and culture, but in the newcomer which don't understand it well in all its nuances, as was my case here.
- Finally, as the misunderstandings continue, I never came here after Skyshifter, which as is public and she knows, I've always considered a good editor and helped several times with articles and what else (which is also why I felt confident to answer with a 😘 when she called me a dictator in another project, though it was obviously not the most appropriate way to answer it, and for which I apologize to Skyshifter). In this last row I wasn't even directly involved in her indefinite block in wiki.pt, despite being mentioned there. I didn't even touched the articles she created here on Thamirys Nunes and Minha Criança Trans or addressed she here in any way. I came here because of the DYK note, which, as said above, I thought was an exaggerated exposition for that case here on the English Misplaced Pages. As you extensively demonstrated here, it is not, and I defer to your appreciation. Despite that, after this whole situation I've not the least interest on interacting in any possible way with Skyshifter, with or without IBan.
- And that's it. Hopefully you'll excuse my verbosity, specially in such a festive day, but I felt this last clarification was needed. I also present my apologies to all those who may have felt offended by an eventual appearance of cockiness or defiance which I inadvertently sometimes transmit in my speech. I'll return here if specifically asked to, otherwise I'll leave the debate for this community. Again, stay well, and have an happy new year. Darwin 17:58, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
Proposed Community Sanctions
I offered DarwIn an off ramp above and their response was to reiterate their views on a highly controversial subject and their responses to concerns about their interactions with Skyshifter have been entirely unsatisfactory. This looks a like a pretty clear case of IDHT revolving around their strong disagreement with one of our guidelines. Frankly, I came very close to just blocking them after their response to my suggestion. This discussion has already dragged on long enough. For purposes of clarity, nobody is required to agree with all of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. And yes, gender is a highly controversial subject. I have my own disagreements with parts of MOS:GENDERID. But as the old saying goes, themz the rules until they aint. Editors are free to disagree with community P&G, but are not free to ignore or flout them. It's time to settle this.
Proposed DarwIn is topic banned from all pages and discussions relating to WP:GENSEX broadly construed and is subject to a one way IBan with user Skyshifter, also broadly construed. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I note that Darwin has agreed above to the IBan. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose - He's already agreed to avoid that general topic area in future & Skyshifter. PS - If a t-ban is imposed? limit it to six-months. GoodDay (talk) 18:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Why should the community accept voluntary TBAN and IBAN which can easily be reneged on when we can impose it as a community sanction and ensure that any violation is actionable? TarnishedPath 01:08, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support topic ban and IBAN, both broadly construed - sorry GoodDay but I do not trust this user's words, and so we need a proper sanction. GiantSnowman 18:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support. Just read through the above and good grief. - The Bushranger One ping only 18:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I said above I would support this proposal if it was brought forward, and I do. Simonm223 (talk) 18:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Why it should be a one-way iban? Skyshifter started this topic with the characterization of their opponent as "a known transphobic editor". A normal editor would be blocked just for writing this. I am not sure a iban is needed, but if it is needed it must be mutual. Ymblanter (talk) 18:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- That's actually a fair point. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- It would be more compelling if DarwIn weren't so committed to misgendering a child out of some apparent WP:RGW impulse. Simonm223 (talk) 19:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 You have been misjudging me - It was quite the opposite, actually, if it's worth anything. Darwin 19:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- The child, according to the reliable sources I have seen, uses she/her pronouns. Your changing your comments from he/him to they/them does not bring even that one comment in line with our MOS. I am not interested in whether you, in your heart of hearts, are a transphobe. I am concerned that your editing in the WP:GENSEX area is disruptive in a way that will likely make trans editors less comfortable working in the en.wiki project. As a result I think you should avoid editing in that topic area. Furthermore I think you should leave Skyshifter alone as you have not provided a satisfactory explanation for your participation in the DYK thread. Simonm223 (talk) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 OK, I didn't knew the child used those pronouns when she was 4 years old, I commit to use them here if I would ever talk about that issue again (which I definitely will not, anyway). Darwin 20:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- The child, according to the reliable sources I have seen, uses she/her pronouns. Your changing your comments from he/him to they/them does not bring even that one comment in line with our MOS. I am not interested in whether you, in your heart of hearts, are a transphobe. I am concerned that your editing in the WP:GENSEX area is disruptive in a way that will likely make trans editors less comfortable working in the en.wiki project. As a result I think you should avoid editing in that topic area. Furthermore I think you should leave Skyshifter alone as you have not provided a satisfactory explanation for your participation in the DYK thread. Simonm223 (talk) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 You have been misjudging me - It was quite the opposite, actually, if it's worth anything. Darwin 19:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- It would be more compelling if DarwIn weren't so committed to misgendering a child out of some apparent WP:RGW impulse. Simonm223 (talk) 19:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- That's actually a fair point. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- If they weren't before they are now... Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Ok, to be clear, I oppose a one-way IB. I do not find this argument convincing. Ymblanter (talk) 19:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I agree. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 12:46, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support this seems like a reasonable set of restrictions, I hope they can stick to it Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back I never edited in that topic here, as far as I can remember, not is it a primary interest I have, so it certainly will not be difficult to hold, even if it comes out to me as incredibly unbased and unfair. Darwin 19:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Your edits to DYK were within that topic area. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back And those were the only ones, and I voluntarily stopped them yesterday immediately after being reverted. How does that configure the kind of systematic behaviour that would justify a topic ban? I really apologize, but in this moment the way I see this is a kind of Salem witch hunt, with people accusing me of all kind of slurs and abominations, even when they are in directly opposition to my stance here. You seem to be punishing me for my opinions and the way I (supposedly) think about a very particular issue (if 4 years old have self determination or not), which comes out to me as really unfair and unworthy of a project like this. Darwin 20:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- How is that in direct opposition to your stance there? Your edit summary says "forgot that English has the neutral pronoun, which is useful in these cases. fixed." which suggests that it is in line with that stance Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back I'm sorry, I seem to have missed your point. What is wrong with correcting the gender to a neutral pronoun in such a situation? Darwin 20:13, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- This edit might help you get the point. At this point your conduct on this page is becoming a serious behavioral issue... you can't lie, sealion, obfuscate, and misdirect endlessly without consequences. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back I can fix those too as I did yesterday, if you think it's important 🤷🏽♂️ Darwin 20:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You are not supposed to edit comments after they have been responded to in that way. But by fix do you mean change to "she" or do you mean change to "they"? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back Change to "she", following this wikipedia rules, certainly. So if I can't fix them, what do you propose instead to mend it? Darwin 20:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Given the sheer quantity of lies and obfuscations from you (the truth is apparently a last resort) the only fix I can see is a formal one, a topic ban and an interaction ban. Up above you so easily went from "I never edited in the topic area" to "those were the only ones" that I don't even think you understand that you were caught in a blatant lie. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back There was not any "lie", please stop assuming bad faith. I thought you were referring to the main space only, which I believe is a fairly assumption to do, if the used word is "editing". Darwin 20:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- At best you're saying that you lack the competence on enwiki to adhere to any voluntary restrictions. This will be my last comment unless pinged by an editor other than you, my apologies that this has been an unpleasant process for you. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Darwin has a long history of editing in WP:GENSEX albeit generally less controversially. an example. Simonm223 (talk) 20:35, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 That's documented with the sources and all, and the proposition there was that the tupinambá was gay, not a woman. It's not even gender related. So you desperatly want something to justify a TB, bring it on. I'm fed up with what seems to be a circular and nonsense discussion on this board, where whatever I say is a lie and with bad intentions. I don't even edit here in the gender topic, but if it makes you happy, bring it on. Darwin 20:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- DarwIn WP:GENSEX covers gender and sexuality. You have been saying you aren't interested in the topic area. It appears to be one of your main areas of interest on en.wiki. Simonm223 (talk) 20:43, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 Thanks for clarifying that. Fact is that I don't edit much here. I've occasionally added or fixed some LGBT related stuff in the past when it crossed my main interest, History, but it certainly is not a primary interest, despite being LGBT myself. Darwin 20:49, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- DarwIn WP:GENSEX covers gender and sexuality. You have been saying you aren't interested in the topic area. It appears to be one of your main areas of interest on en.wiki. Simonm223 (talk) 20:43, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 That's documented with the sources and all, and the proposition there was that the tupinambá was gay, not a woman. It's not even gender related. So you desperatly want something to justify a TB, bring it on. I'm fed up with what seems to be a circular and nonsense discussion on this board, where whatever I say is a lie and with bad intentions. I don't even edit here in the gender topic, but if it makes you happy, bring it on. Darwin 20:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back There was not any "lie", please stop assuming bad faith. I thought you were referring to the main space only, which I believe is a fairly assumption to do, if the used word is "editing". Darwin 20:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Given the sheer quantity of lies and obfuscations from you (the truth is apparently a last resort) the only fix I can see is a formal one, a topic ban and an interaction ban. Up above you so easily went from "I never edited in the topic area" to "those were the only ones" that I don't even think you understand that you were caught in a blatant lie. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back Change to "she", following this wikipedia rules, certainly. So if I can't fix them, what do you propose instead to mend it? Darwin 20:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You are not supposed to edit comments after they have been responded to in that way. But by fix do you mean change to "she" or do you mean change to "they"? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back I can fix those too as I did yesterday, if you think it's important 🤷🏽♂️ Darwin 20:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- This edit might help you get the point. At this point your conduct on this page is becoming a serious behavioral issue... you can't lie, sealion, obfuscate, and misdirect endlessly without consequences. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back I'm sorry, I seem to have missed your point. What is wrong with correcting the gender to a neutral pronoun in such a situation? Darwin 20:13, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- How is that in direct opposition to your stance there? Your edit summary says "forgot that English has the neutral pronoun, which is useful in these cases. fixed." which suggests that it is in line with that stance Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back And those were the only ones, and I voluntarily stopped them yesterday immediately after being reverted. How does that configure the kind of systematic behaviour that would justify a topic ban? I really apologize, but in this moment the way I see this is a kind of Salem witch hunt, with people accusing me of all kind of slurs and abominations, even when they are in directly opposition to my stance here. You seem to be punishing me for my opinions and the way I (supposedly) think about a very particular issue (if 4 years old have self determination or not), which comes out to me as really unfair and unworthy of a project like this. Darwin 20:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Your edits to DYK were within that topic area. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back I never edited in that topic here, as far as I can remember, not is it a primary interest I have, so it certainly will not be difficult to hold, even if it comes out to me as incredibly unbased and unfair. Darwin 19:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support per Bushranger. charlotte 20:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose. As GoodDay noted, the problem appears to already be addressed. If the problem persists then go for a sanction. Look we let people argue their point here and it does seem like most of the support is because editors feel Darwin isn't contrite enough, not that they expect the issue to continue. Note that I'm not weighing in on any interaction bans. Springee (talk) 20:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose per Springee. This entire issue could have been dropped days ago when DarwIn acknowledged he would walk away, and instead seems to have been needlessly escalated again and again and again. * Pppery * it has begun... 20:51, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Pppery: days ago? I think you might have misread the time stamps. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:57, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support the TBAN; personally I'd have indeffed several outdents sooner, but here we are. No opinion on the IBAN. ⇒SWATJester 23:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support Given what's happened, I think an enforceable topic ban is better than Darwin stepping away. IMO the BLP issues is far more concerning than gensex one so I'd support a BLP topic ban as well, but it seems likely a gensex one would be enough to stop Darwin feeling the continued need to express their opinions on a living person. Since Darwin is going to step away anyway and barely edits en, it should be a moot point and if it's not that's why it's enforceable. As for the iban, while I don't think Skyshifter should have described Darwin in that way when opening this thread, I think we can accept it as a one time mistake under the stress of apparently being followed and given questionable way Darwin ended up in a dispute here with someone they'd had problems with elsewhere I think a one-way iban is justified. Nil Einne (talk) 23:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Nil Einne What " continued need to express their opinions on a living person"? My single-1-single comment in the DYK? Darwin 23:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn: Demonstrating the problem. You claim you only did it once elsewhere but anyone reading this thread can see you did it here so many times #c-DarwIn-20241229133200-Skyshifter-20241229132800, #c-DarwIn-20241229152900-Simonm223-20241229150600, #c-DarwIn-20241229154200-Blue-Sonnet-20241229154000, #c-DarwIn-20241229154100-Simonm223-20241229153800, #c-DarwIn-20241229160700-GiantSnowman-20241229154400, #c-DarwIn-20241229172200-Ad_Orientem-20241229171800. I think it represents maybe 1/3 of your comments here (whether counting comments or text). There is absolutely no reason for you to go around expressing your opinions on two different living persons to say you're going to walk away. And if you need to express your opinion on living persons to defend your actions, you clearly have no defence. Nil Einne (talk) 00:22, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- So let's get this straight. You are proposing a topic ban on me because of the personal opinions on (the eventual lack of) selfdetermination of 4 year old children that I expressed here in this board, despite that my editions related to it were limited to a 1-single-1 comment on that issue on the DYK page? This is really looking like thought police. I tell you, my personal positions are my personal positions, and I'll not change them to please you, even if if costs me a Topic Ban for barely mentioned them on this project a single time before this topic was opened here. Darwin 00:28, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Holding an opinion ≠ expressing an opinion. Only one of these is causing an issue. Blue Sonnet (talk) 00:44, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- I expressed it only 1-one-1 time here almost 1 day before being recalled here to explain it, and after voluntarily saying in the same page that I would not express it again there. Now I'm being punished for explaining it here too, after being requested to do that? This is insufferable. Darwin 00:55, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- User:DarwIn, I think at this point, further comments from you will not be helping your case. If this is insufferable (and being summoned to ANI generally is), it might help to step back from this discussion and only respond if editors ask you specific questions. When discussions get this long, often the small benefit from continuing to comment does not outweigh the cost of continued misunderstanding among editors. Liz
- @Liz: Thank you for the wise advice, I'll be doing that. Darwin 03:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn: you can think whatever you like about living persons. I have a lot of views on living persons which I would never, ever express on wiki for various reasons including BLP. Also you defence is bullshit. No one ever asked you to make accusations around living persons to defend your actions. And yes it is fairly normal that editors may be sanctioned if they feel they need to do such things about living persons on ANI as part of some silly argument or defence. I recall an editor who was temporarily blocked after they felt the need to say two very very famous extremely public figure living persons (and some non living) were sex predators to prove some point at ANI. And I'm fairly sure a lot of people have said and feel those people are sex predators including some Wikipedians I'd even probably agree in at least one case, they just understand it's not something they should be expressing here. Nil Einne (talk) 23:02, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- For clarity, what I mean by my last sentence is that I'm sure quite a few people would agree with the statements. I'm sure such statements have been made elsewhere probably even in opinions printed in reliable sources (I think the editor did link to some such opinions). I'm sure even quite a few Wikipedians would agree that one or more of these people are sex predators, I think I'd even agree with it in at least one case. However most of us understand that our personal views of living persons, especially highly negatives views are generally not something to be expressed on wiki except when for some reason it's important enough to the discussion that it's reasonable to say it. When you keep saying something and in the same paragraph acknowledge the English wikipedia doesn't consider your opinion relevant, then it's clear there was no reason for you to say it. You're still free to believe it just as I'm still free to believe all those things about living persons that I would never express on wiki. Nil Einne (talk) 06:08, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- User:DarwIn, I think at this point, further comments from you will not be helping your case. If this is insufferable (and being summoned to ANI generally is), it might help to step back from this discussion and only respond if editors ask you specific questions. When discussions get this long, often the small benefit from continuing to comment does not outweigh the cost of continued misunderstanding among editors. Liz
- I expressed it only 1-one-1 time here almost 1 day before being recalled here to explain it, and after voluntarily saying in the same page that I would not express it again there. Now I'm being punished for explaining it here too, after being requested to do that? This is insufferable. Darwin 00:55, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Holding an opinion ≠ expressing an opinion. Only one of these is causing an issue. Blue Sonnet (talk) 00:44, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- So let's get this straight. You are proposing a topic ban on me because of the personal opinions on (the eventual lack of) selfdetermination of 4 year old children that I expressed here in this board, despite that my editions related to it were limited to a 1-single-1 comment on that issue on the DYK page? This is really looking like thought police. I tell you, my personal positions are my personal positions, and I'll not change them to please you, even if if costs me a Topic Ban for barely mentioned them on this project a single time before this topic was opened here. Darwin 00:28, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn: Demonstrating the problem. You claim you only did it once elsewhere but anyone reading this thread can see you did it here so many times #c-DarwIn-20241229133200-Skyshifter-20241229132800, #c-DarwIn-20241229152900-Simonm223-20241229150600, #c-DarwIn-20241229154200-Blue-Sonnet-20241229154000, #c-DarwIn-20241229154100-Simonm223-20241229153800, #c-DarwIn-20241229160700-GiantSnowman-20241229154400, #c-DarwIn-20241229172200-Ad_Orientem-20241229171800. I think it represents maybe 1/3 of your comments here (whether counting comments or text). There is absolutely no reason for you to go around expressing your opinions on two different living persons to say you're going to walk away. And if you need to express your opinion on living persons to defend your actions, you clearly have no defence. Nil Einne (talk) 00:22, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Nil Einne What " continued need to express their opinions on a living person"? My single-1-single comment in the DYK? Darwin 23:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support - Darwin's replies and conduct here indicates that he simply doesn't get it.
- MiasmaEternal☎ 02:52, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose - Per GoodDay and Springee. Ciridae (talk) 05:47, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support TBAN per Bushranger. Darwin has already agreed to the 1-way IBAN — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk) 10:56, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose Given the history at pt.wiki, I think this is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. There should be no interaction between the parties, which Darwin has agreed to.Boynamedsue (talk) 14:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose The agreed-upon IBAN takes care of the ongoing issue. While the edits related to the child were problematic, this doesn't appear to be case of significantly wider problems in this topic area, and the full scope of MOS:GENDERID may very well be surprising to editors who don't do much in that area. I don't think there's been near enough here to no longer WP:AGF. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 15:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
Support TBAN/IBANWeak support TBAN/Strong support IBAN - WP:NQP suggests that queerphobia is inherently disruptive. calling a queer activist a "troglodyte", the previous history of abuse on pt.wikipedia, and the current responses from Darwin indicate WP:NOTHERE behavior. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- This reasoning looks like a case of punishing somebody for political and cultural views rather than behaviour.Boynamedsue (talk) 16:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Followung editors from wiki to wiki because of transphobic beliefs is disruptive, and creepy. A boy named sue is a transphobic song by the way. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 17:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oh dear. Do you think I should have a siteban, or would a TBAN suffice?--Boynamedsue (talk) 18:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- If I was named after a joke about misgendering people, I'd avoid defending crosswiki culture warriors worried about misgendering people. You may just really be into Shel Silverstein. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 19:26, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- "A Boy Named Sue", made famous by Johnny Cash sixty years ago , is a transphobic "joke about misgendering people"??? Oh my god, some people need to get out in the real world more. EEng 23:58, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for your valuable input. As always, you have advanced the conversation in a helpful way EEng. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 00:05, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- No need to thank me. It's just part of the service. EEng 01:19, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- OK boomer. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 01:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- Well, you certainly put me in my place with that one. EEng 21:14, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- OK boomer. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 01:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- No need to thank me. It's just part of the service. EEng 01:19, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for your valuable input. As always, you have advanced the conversation in a helpful way EEng. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 00:05, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- "A Boy Named Sue", made famous by Johnny Cash sixty years ago , is a transphobic "joke about misgendering people"??? Oh my god, some people need to get out in the real world more. EEng 23:58, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- I understand. Speaking up for the witch is a sign I too might be a witch. I'll try to be more careful in future.Boynamedsue (talk) 20:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Misgendering BLPs is disruptive. A Johnny Cash related username is not. Suggest the IP WP:DROPTHESTICK - while we may disagree with Boynamedsue regarding their interpretation here they have done nothing wrong. Simonm223 (talk) 21:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- If I was named after a joke about misgendering people, I'd avoid defending crosswiki culture warriors worried about misgendering people. You may just really be into Shel Silverstein. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 19:26, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oh dear. Do you think I should have a siteban, or would a TBAN suffice?--Boynamedsue (talk) 18:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- No. It's stopping a disruptive editor from continuing to edit disruptively. Simonm223 (talk) 17:17, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Followung editors from wiki to wiki because of transphobic beliefs is disruptive, and creepy. A boy named sue is a transphobic song by the way. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 17:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) NQP is an essay. Essentially it's an op-ed piece. It does not carry any force in the realm of WP:PG, and the views expressed there are controversial. (See the essay's talk page.). IMO words with some variation on "phobe/phobic" &c. are being routinely weaponized by people on one side of hot button cultural/political debates as part of an effort to demonize those on the other side of these debates. As such, I am inclined to view the use of such terms as a specie of WP:NPA. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- fair enough, i'll remove my vote for TBAN.
- sidenote, I have no qualms with labeling a behavior as queerphobia. I don't think calling out discrimination or disruptive attitudes is inherently a vio of NPA. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:53, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- ... I am indecisive.. I'll add weak support for TBAN, I still think the topic area should not have folks who are disruptive like this. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 17:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Pervasively misgendering a child based on the belief that a child cannot express a desire to transition is a form of transphobic behavior. If it was a similar comment made about a BLP on the basis of religion or skin colour there would be no mention of WP:NPA. Misplaced Pages is generally good about handling racism. It is a perpetual stain upon the reputation of Misplaced Pages that it's culture continues to worry more about the feelings of people who take transphobic actions than of the victims of the same. Simonm223 (talk) 17:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose as unnecessary given the commitments already given. WaggersTALK 11:29, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- This reasoning looks like a case of punishing somebody for political and cultural views rather than behaviour.Boynamedsue (talk) 16:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
| Let's not. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC). Edited to include edit conflict comment. CNC (talk) 15:56, 3 January 2025 (UTC) |
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| This is affairs of other wikis. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:10, 31 December 2024 (UTC) |
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
As a ptwiki user that know what's happening but talked to both sides of the discussion throughout it: This whole discussion started as a beef between Skyshifter and DarwIn. Skyshifter didn't accept some changes DarwIn made to an article "of her" (quotes because articles doesn't have owners. I respect her pronouns), and when discussing with DarwIn, called the whole Portuguese Misplaced Pages project a sewage (here)/in her UP, thus being banned and the ban being endorsed on the block discussion (in portuguese). The discussion was based on the references for the article, was solved in the ptwiki with an outburst from Sky, and that was it. This whole problem was brought here for a single reason only: Beef from Skyshifter with DarwIn. A single change or a single opinion on a DYK shouldn't be reason for a TB or IBAN anywhere in the world, especially considering that it was a difference interpreting the references. I know that my statement won't change anything, as there is an apparent "consensus" on TBanning and IBANning him, though I wanted to make things clear for everyone. I am totally open for questioning regarding any of my statements above, and I will supply you with any proof I have and you need. Just ping me here and if the inquiry/proofs are extremely important, please leave me a message on my portuguese talk page (direct url). It can be in English, just for me to see you need me here. Cheers. Eduardo G. 03:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC) JardelW is a user who was banned from the Portuguese Misplaced Pages due to his detestable behavior. This individual used the same Telegram group that he is now criticizing. The editor was banned from this group due to his behavior, in which he called respected users of the community "worms, scoundrels, trash and deniers". And DarwIn is one of the administrators of the group where he is banned, so you can already imagine why he is here. Now, once again he is trying to destabilize the community by defending an editor who called the entire project a sewer and made unproven accusations against an administrator. At this point, the account is practically banned and the article that caused the discord has its deletion or merge defended by several editors. By coming here, JardelW and Skyshifter are, in a way, stating that the entire community is prejudiced. Yet another offense enters the list as proof of Jardel's destabilizing behavior. Furthermore, this user already tried to carry out the same destabilization by contesting on meta the banning of IPs, a consensual decision among hundreds of editors. And when he was still blocked, went to Meta-Wiki in an attempt to intervene in the Misplaced Pages domain, where he is banned, simply because he did not agree with the deletion of an article. And this without presenting any evidence. It is clear that Jardel's objective here is to take revenge on the community, and he will be punished for it. InvictumAlways (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 04:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
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- InvictumAlways - this is your second edit ever, and your account was just created today - how did you get to this ANI post? jellyfish ✉ 05:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- I saw a discussion in the group and created the account to not appear as an IP. InvictumAlways (talk) 05:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Jardel The objective of the channel is to be a more relaxed place. And it's not official, as you said yourself previously. Angry moment? Are you sorry? After your block, you attacked editors on a social network, as attested by a CheckUser: . And there are no prejudiced comments. That's a lie. Where are the links? And how much time have you devoted to the project when all you do is attack others? Enough of this nonsense. I ask that an administrator evaluate the conduct of this account. InvictumAlways (talk) 05:16, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- I didn't realize the discussion was closed. Sorry. InvictumAlways (talk) 05:18, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- Supporting both IBAN and TBAN. Someone who actively believes in misgendering should not be allowed into this area when they have already demonstrably made another editor uncomfortable. The snarky reply to GiantSnowman does not convince me they would respond well if another editor brought up a similar concern in the future.--Jasper Deng (talk) 07:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- Can't we give this child and her mother some privacy? What is it about gender issues, as opposed to other medical or developmental issues, that seems to give everyone a right to comment? Let's just report what reliable sources say and leave it at that. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:38, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- If the mother had wanted privacy for her child, writing a book which makes it possible to identify her and know intimate details of her biology for the rest of her life, while documenting her transition step by step for hundreds of thousands of instagram followers, seem strange choices. I don't feel there are any privacy concerns here, that horse has long bolted, and we had nothing to do with opening the door.Boynamedsue (talk) 09:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
- BLP requires we take great care what we say about living persons regardless of the wisdom of their decisions. This is hardly the first time it's come up where both in articles and in discussions we've required editors obey BLP even if there is a lot of nonsense out there which arises in part from decisions subjects have made. Editors can do that stuff on Reddit or 4chan or wherever they want without such requirements. If editors cannot follow our BLP requirements, they need to stop editing either voluntarily or involuntarily. Nil Einne (talk) 10:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think BLP covers things that the subject puts into the public domain about themselves or, when we are talking about talkpages, personal opinions on the morality of things they reveal about themselves.Boynamedsue (talk) 13:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- talkpages def are covered by BLP as per the policy page.and the policy gives wide latitude about what the subject may have redacted if they object to info, even if they had previously or somehow otherwise placed that info in public domain.
- concerns about privacy have to weigh against dueness but arguing the book gives dueness to try to be internet sleuths and discover and identify a child is probs not gonna pass the smell test.Bluethricecreamman (talk) 13:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- The woman's book names the child, and photos of her are regularly published by the mother on instagram. There is an interview with the mother in Brazilian Marie Claire giving the child's full name and photos. I would suggest not much "internet sleuthing" is required here. Misplaced Pages, and I include Darwin in this, has (rightly) much more concern for her daughter's privacy than she does.Boynamedsue (talk) 15:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- The mother may have decided to publicise things, but the child certainly hasn't. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:42, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- Children cannot consent, their parents can. (CC) Tbhotch 21:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would totally agree, but that is irrelevant here, nothing Darwin did was related to revealing the child's identity. He criticised the mother in strong terms on talkpages and this is what the BLP argument comes down to.--Boynamedsue (talk) 23:08, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's incorrect. He's clearly disputing the child's identity. He might feel that's justified but Misplaced Pages isn't the place for that crap. Whatever the wisdom of whatever the mother did, there's zero reason to think the child is helped in any way by an editor denying their identity. As I've said before, if at any time the child says what the mother said was wrong or otherwise indicates they have a different identity from what's been presented then we'll change our article. But until that happens, we should treat things as they are and not allow editors to question the child's identity. I'd note that DarwIn also kept talking about the child's age in a very misleading way to the extent that I eventually felt complelled point out their bullshit. I did not want to talk about the child's age here on ANI, it shouldn't relate to anything. But what can we do when DarwIn keeps uttering nonsense about the child's age? Nil Einne (talk) 13:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't feel disputing the validity of the process by which the mother came to the conclusion the child was trans is covered by BLP. The description she made of the process is public knowledge, if a person wants to say "she shouldn't have done it like that" then they are not making any claims about the person at all, merely about whether, in their opinion, their actions are correct.--Boynamedsue (talk) 15:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ask yourself whether Misplaced Pages would even entertain this discourse if the identity was anything other than a trans one. The answer is a flat no. Darwin's interpretation of the mother's interpretation of her daughter's identity is inappropriate for the project, is disruptive and is openly antagonistic toward trans editors. I think nothing more can be gained from endlessly debating whether we should pretend there is a carve-out to BLP requirements for children within oppressed minorities. Simonm223 (talk) 17:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't feel disputing the validity of the process by which the mother came to the conclusion the child was trans is covered by BLP. The description she made of the process is public knowledge, if a person wants to say "she shouldn't have done it like that" then they are not making any claims about the person at all, merely about whether, in their opinion, their actions are correct.--Boynamedsue (talk) 15:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's incorrect. He's clearly disputing the child's identity. He might feel that's justified but Misplaced Pages isn't the place for that crap. Whatever the wisdom of whatever the mother did, there's zero reason to think the child is helped in any way by an editor denying their identity. As I've said before, if at any time the child says what the mother said was wrong or otherwise indicates they have a different identity from what's been presented then we'll change our article. But until that happens, we should treat things as they are and not allow editors to question the child's identity. I'd note that DarwIn also kept talking about the child's age in a very misleading way to the extent that I eventually felt complelled point out their bullshit. I did not want to talk about the child's age here on ANI, it shouldn't relate to anything. But what can we do when DarwIn keeps uttering nonsense about the child's age? Nil Einne (talk) 13:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- The mother may have decided to publicise things, but the child certainly hasn't. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:42, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- The woman's book names the child, and photos of her are regularly published by the mother on instagram. There is an interview with the mother in Brazilian Marie Claire giving the child's full name and photos. I would suggest not much "internet sleuthing" is required here. Misplaced Pages, and I include Darwin in this, has (rightly) much more concern for her daughter's privacy than she does.Boynamedsue (talk) 15:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think BLP covers things that the subject puts into the public domain about themselves or, when we are talking about talkpages, personal opinions on the morality of things they reveal about themselves.Boynamedsue (talk) 13:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- BLP requires we take great care what we say about living persons regardless of the wisdom of their decisions. This is hardly the first time it's come up where both in articles and in discussions we've required editors obey BLP even if there is a lot of nonsense out there which arises in part from decisions subjects have made. Editors can do that stuff on Reddit or 4chan or wherever they want without such requirements. If editors cannot follow our BLP requirements, they need to stop editing either voluntarily or involuntarily. Nil Einne (talk) 10:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- If the mother had wanted privacy for her child, writing a book which makes it possible to identify her and know intimate details of her biology for the rest of her life, while documenting her transition step by step for hundreds of thousands of instagram followers, seem strange choices. I don't feel there are any privacy concerns here, that horse has long bolted, and we had nothing to do with opening the door.Boynamedsue (talk) 09:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support TBAN, no comment on IBAN. This is blatant POV harassment. (CC) Tbhotch 21:55, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support. Editors in this topic area can and often do disagree on the underlying issues, which often helpfully ensures that all such material on Misplaced Pages follows our policies and guidelines. However, the responses to Ad Orientem's request and various replies above shows that the proposed remedies would be appropriate given the BLP issues in play here.-- Patar knight - /contributions 22:28, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose any sanctions I’m sorry if I’m interfering in something I’m not involved with, but I’ve been watching this discussion and I think it’s needlessly toxic. What I’m seeing is a misunderstanding of some inappropriate WP:OR on a hot-button issue sparking a dispute that turned into “DarwIn is a transphobic bully” which I don’t think is true. I think the two main parties should simply avoid each other voluntarily and the situation will quickly de-escalate. Dronebogus (talk) 05:09, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support TBAN, indifferent to IBAN. Having followed this topic for a few days, it's convinced me that a topic ban for both GENSEX and BLP is entirely appropriate in this instance. My initial scepticism passed after reading responses from the editor and realising that the understanding of BLP policy appears to be even more incomplete than I originally thought. The deceleration from the editor to avoid such topics voluntarily is irrelevant, as combined with the lack of understanding over the concept of broadly construed, commitments have already been made and broken within this discussion alone. So respectfully, I believe this WP:NOTHERE type editing, whether it is attempting to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS or simply WP:BLUDGEONING discussions, is nonetheless disruptive and uncivil at times. CNC (talk) 18:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose per Dronebogus. I'd say "we're better than this" if I believed it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose Skyshifter, if anything, is harassing Darwin in this instance. Darwin has agreed to an IBAN, never mind that he's expressed desires to deëscelate what has become the longest thread on AN or ANI as of writing. JayCubby 22:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support This is a pretty explicit case of POV harassment. Their replies to the topic likewise do not give me faith they will adhere to a self imposed limitation. Darwin claimed to have agreed to step away before the ANI was created, but the edit history shows that Darwin continued editing the page up until an hour before Skyshifter created the ANI. Thus, there should be an actionable sanction. I fail to understand how it is Skyshifter doing the harassment at all as Cubby suggests. Darwin even called skyshifter a troglydite (here) to boot. Relm (talk) 15:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oh my fucking god. This whole thread is nuts. I wish I could pardon my french but this is CRAZY.
- Never in a million years would’ve I expected myself to be responding to a thread like this but I mean here I am.
- Although Skywing’s concerns of harassment are valid especially if he’s being tracked across Misplaced Pages’s website, as far as I know, there are no guidelines that state someone can be punished for actions on another Misplaced Pages.
- I support the notion of Darwin being topic banned from gender related articles (especially trans ones), for the simple fact that his conflict of interest with transphobia has clearly caused a disruption to the Misplaced Pages community.
- I oppose with the IP-ban because if anything this SHOULD’VE ended a week ago when Darwin voluntarily said he would not edit those pages as well as avoid any interaction with Skywing.
Reader of Information (talk) 15:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)- No one has proposed an IP Ban. The Aforementioned 'IBan' is a one way interaction-ban. Relm (talk) 16:28, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I understand, I meant that. Apologies. I misunderstood what it stood for. I would prefer if the IBAN was two way instead of one-way. Seems hardly fair in my honest opinion when both I suppose are equally responsible and to share the blame. This is a messy situation so putting the blame on one when both are equally responsible seems hardly fair. But that's my two cents.
- NOTE: I don't condone homophobia or queerphobia or whatever the term is (I'm not really informed enough in this situation to know what Misplaced Pages calls it so I'm adding both just in case) so please don't take it as me defending either side as that is NOT my intent.
- Cheers,
Reader of Information (talk) 01:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC)- This reply reminded me of the essay WP:CLUE. CNC (talk) 01:15, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Lol. It is accurate. That literally is what it is I suppose lol. Reader of Information (talk) 01:19, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- This reply reminded me of the essay WP:CLUE. CNC (talk) 01:15, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- No one has proposed an IP Ban. The Aforementioned 'IBan' is a one way interaction-ban. Relm (talk) 16:28, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose any sanctions against Darwin per Dronebogus. I wish we were better than this, but like TBUA, I don't actually believe that we are. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 20:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support both TBAN and IBAN. Their behaviour at DYK might have been mitigated if they had taken responsibility here instead of doubling down. A TBAN and IBAN will reduce disruption. TarnishedPath 01:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- After I left my comment above and after providing Darwin with a CTOP notice they commented at Special:Diff/1267644460 accusing me of coming to their talk page to "
further troll me with this nonsense warning
". TarnishedPath 01:39, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- After I left my comment above and after providing Darwin with a CTOP notice they commented at Special:Diff/1267644460 accusing me of coming to their talk page to "
- Support both. I'm baffled that some people above are saying "well, they agreed to stop voluntarily" - did they not read the massive post Darwin made above? It amounts to an extended "I'm sorry that you were offended." Trusting that someone will avoid the same mistakes in the future on their own requires that they understand and admit to those mistakes, which is obviously not the case here; how can we trust that an editor will abide by a self-imposed restriction when they won't even meaningfully acknowledge the errors that made that restriction necessary? Therefore, sanctions are necessary. --Aquillion (talk) 03:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
Skyshifter taking matters from another Misplaced Pages to seek revenge.
| 100% affairs of other wikis. - The Bushranger One ping only 01:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC) |
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This entire subsection is about Eduardo Gottert casting aspersions on Skyshifter and providing no diffs or evidence of this "revenge" except for statements about what is going on on another language Misplaced Pages which have no bearing on what occurs here. I'm closing this now before this WP:BOOMERANGs on to Eduardo Gottert and editors start proposing a block for personal attacks. Baseless counter attacks are generally dismissed at the English Misplaced Pages ANI. Please do not reopen this section. Liz 09:00, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. On the 29th of December, User:Skyshifter started an AN/I based on a claim that User:DarwIn, a sysop at ptwiki, was cross-wiki harrassing her. To make up those claims, she used as a single proof, of him editing on a DYK nomination here. AFAIK, DYK nominations are open for debate. She accused him of transphobia, a very harsh word, over some 5 edits on the same page, and all the other arguments in her accusation were from the ptwiki with absolutely no relation to the English Misplaced Pages, and she tried to "force" that it was a cross-wiki harrassment, when it wasn't. The sole reason for that AN/I is a beef from Skyshifter with DarwIn. But all of this happened only, and just because of her banishment for the portuguese wiki. She is the cross-wiki harrasser in this situation, as she came to a project where DarwIn hasn't got nearly as many edits as his home-wiki and most of his edits are on discussions or category/commons related, to try blocking him and thus tarnish his block log. This is all for revenge of some articles that are being debated and will be either deleted or merged with other articles, and especially over her permanent block on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, after calling the whole platform a sewage (here and in her UP), casting aspersions over other users and using ducks and meatpuppets to revert back the articles (one of her meats is currently being blocked from ptwiki too, see it here, with all the proofs). The block discussion taking place at the moment has 10 administrator votes in favour of the block, and absolutely no contrary opinion whatsoever. Despite some not-so-good arguments from DarwIn in the AN/I above, it is more than clear that the reason for the opening of the said AN/I was personal and for revenge. I'm open to any questions regarding this topic, as there is plenty of evidence to sustain my claims. All of this that she's doing would clearly fall under pt:WP:NDD, here called WP:ASPERSIONS I think, and disruptive editing/WP:POINT, and in the AN/I above she's commiting WP:BLUDGEON, repeating the eye-catching word "transphobia" over and over, without sustaining her argument accordingly, seeking to block a sysop at other 3 projects and rollbacker here, with the sole objective of tarnishing his block log, just for revenge and self-fullfillment. Eduardo G. 05:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
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John40332 reported by CurryTime7-24
John40332 has been blocked sitewide. Reader of Information (talk) 01:33, 6 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Moved from WP:AIV – ToBeFree (talk) 14:12, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
John40332 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – On Psycho (1960 film) (diff): account is being used only for promotional purposes; account is evidently a spambot or a compromised account. User's recent edits have been dedicated almost invariably to inserting links in classical music-related articles to an obscure sheet music site. Behavior appeared to be WP:REFSPAM and WP:SPA. Personal attempts to curb this behavior or reach a compromise were rejected by user. Further attempts to engage with them at WT:CM resulted in WP:ICANTHEARYOU, despite three other editors informing user that their edits appeared to be spam or some kind of advocacy. CurryTime7-24 (talk) 08:50, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
- Not a bot and not spamming, you just keep WP:HOUNDING me repeatedly, I cited sources to the publisher of the books in question. You appear to suffer from WP:OWN and act like I need your consent to edit the articles you feel that belong to you. You also know I'm not a compromised account, you spam Assume_good_faith on your reverts but you're mostly bullying other editors into submission.
- You've been asked to stop disrupting editing https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:CurryTime7-24#January_2025 , and continue to harass any edits that touch "your" articles.
- You also keep saying I add citation to obscure music sites, just because you don't know something doesn't make it obscure. Additionally, you are the only person raising this as an issue because you're extremely controlling of the articles, you don't own Misplaced Pages and hopefully some other editor or admin can remind you of that. John40332 (talk) 09:23, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
- Are you claiming that SheetMusicX is a reliable source for these articles? If so then someone (it may be me but I don't guarantee it) should take it to the reliable sources noticeboard. I note that several editors have queried this, not just CurryTime7-24. John40332 is clearly not a spambot or compromised account, so please avoid over-egging the pudding. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:19, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
- It is reliable and listed with other respectable publishers, it's the homepage of the Canadian music publishing house Edition Zeza, their books are part of the National Library Collections, WorldCat.org shows their books in libraries around the world etc, I shouldn't even have to dig this far because 1 editor decided he WP:OWN Misplaced Pages. The links I had included provided relevant information about the articles I was editing (orchestration, dates, duration etc). Cited information from a publisher of said work, which is exactly what WP:SOURCEDEF suggests doing. John40332 (talk) 18:41, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
- The editor's history does seem suspicious. From 2014 to 2023 they made a total of 24 edits to article space, almost all of which were to Charlie Siem and Sasha Siem. Then after more than a year of no edits, in the last 5 weeks they have made 38 edits to article space, of which all except three added a reference to sheetmusicx.com. This is a commercial site that sells sheet music. As far as I can see, every reference added was a link to a page that sells a particular piece of sheet music. This certainly seems like WP:REFSPAM. CodeTalker (talk) 19:00, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
- So is the problem that I'm actively contributing now, or that the cited sources aren't good enough? You guys are grasping at straws at this point.user:CurryTime7-24 added links to commercial sites diff1 , such as to Fidelio Music (to which he appears to be an affiliate) and yet no one raises a flag. Even when I added a source without removing his, he removed mine diff2 to keep only his link to Fidelio Music. John40332 (talk) 19:23, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
- There is no "you guys" here. You have exactly the same status, as a volunteer editor, as I do. I have no idea who CurryTime7-24 is, or whether that editor is an affiliate. I just know about reliable sources and that we should not be linking to any commercial site, except possibly to the original publisher of a work. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:38, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
- So is the problem that I'm actively contributing now, or that the cited sources aren't good enough? You guys are grasping at straws at this point.user:CurryTime7-24 added links to commercial sites diff1 , such as to Fidelio Music (to which he appears to be an affiliate) and yet no one raises a flag. Even when I added a source without removing his, he removed mine diff2 to keep only his link to Fidelio Music. John40332 (talk) 19:23, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
- Are you claiming that SheetMusicX is a reliable source for these articles? If so then someone (it may be me but I don't guarantee it) should take it to the reliable sources noticeboard. I note that several editors have queried this, not just CurryTime7-24. John40332 is clearly not a spambot or compromised account, so please avoid over-egging the pudding. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:19, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
- User:COIBot has compiled a page, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Spam/Local/sheetmusicx.com of edits with links to this website. This list was not created by CurryTime7-24 but by a bot looking for instances of conflict-of-interests. All of the problems you are concerned about, John40332, would not exist if you would just stop posting links to this website. If you would agree to stop referring to sheetmusicx.com, you wouldn't be "hounded" or be defending yourself and we could close this complaint. Can you agree to that editing restriction? And, if you can't, then why are you insisting on linking to this particular website? Liz 02:09, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
- Because it's a valid source according to:
- WP:REPUTABLE - "Articles should be based on reliable, independent, published sources"
- WP:SOURCEDEF - The publisher of the work (and not only the first ever publisher, any reputable publisher of a work)
- WP:PUBLISHED - "Published means, for Misplaced Pages's purposes, any source that was made available to the public in some form."
Interestingly, "someone" (and I'm not saying it's CurryTime7-24) came to my talk page yesterday to write "kill yourself", I can only think of 1 person who is hounding me this much though, but that doesn't seem to be taken seriously. John40332 (talk) 07:29, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's not "interesting", that's despicable; as is your insinuation. As for sheetmusicx as as source: for what? That they published some work? Why is that noteworthy? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 08:00, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
- As a source for information about the work. Yes it's despicable, and as I said, no one takes it seriously, I'm not insinuating anything, admins can look into the IP themselves. John40332 (talk) 08:10, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
- So, you would prefer that this dispute continue on, which could lead to sanctions for you, rather than simply stop using this website as a reference? To me, when I see that kind of behavior, it's typically a sign of a paid editor. Liz 09:24, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
- There's no dispute, it's a reliable source and user:CurryTime7-24 makes a fuss about it because of his WP:OWN syndrome and potential WP:COI with his affiliation with Fidelio Music.
- Why are you against a source that complies with WP:RELIABILITY ? John40332 (talk) 09:35, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
- Because your use of that source is pretty clearly intended as promotional. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:27, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's hard to understand how you can say "there's no dispute" when there is quite obviously a dispute; six editors in this thread alone have questioned your use of that source. You have invoked WP:RS to claim that the website is an acceptable source, but I'm not sure you have understood what that guideline says about commercial sites; they are allowed as references only to verify simple facts such as titles and running times. You have not used sheetmusicx.com for such purposes; you have used it to tell the reader where they can purchase sheet music (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc). CodeTalker (talk) 01:34, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- I used it to add relevant information that didn't exist on Misplaced Pages.
- When I added "Psycho A Narrative for String Orchestra" diff that exists since 1968 and never mentioned on Misplaced Pages, but CurryTime decided to harass me there too.
- When I added the orchestration for Tambourin Chinois diff, which CurryTime decided to remove too.
- I used information by the publisher to confirm facts, as per WP:RS, if commercial sources are not allowed to verify contributions, then why is everyone so quiet about CurryTime's affiliation to Fidelio Music links ? So far these comments are a good example of WP:HUNT, first I was accused of spamming, then of being a bot, then that my account was compromised, then that the source used wasn't reliable, if you run out of ideas try my religion or ethnicity. John40332 (talk) 08:50, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, you added the bit about Psycho - which included the link with the same phrasing as on the other edits where it was obvious "buy this music here". Your edits are either promotional or are indistinguishable from being promotional. That is why they are being removed. - The Bushranger One ping only 09:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- You have repeatedly said that CurryTime7-24 is an affiliate of Fidelio. Can you show us your evidence of that? Phil Bridger (talk) 18:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Here he removed my source to add Fidelio Music diff1
- Here again to make sure only Fidelio Music exists diff2
- And obviously here, deleting what I added to include Fidelio Music exclusively diff3
- Here he completely deleted everything I added about the piece as part of his WP:HOUNDING diff4 John40332 (talk) 19:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- That may be evidence of something, good or bad, but it's certainly not evidence that that editor is an affiliate. But, anyway, the action that hould have been taken a few days ago has now been taken, so we can stop talking now. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- So, you would prefer that this dispute continue on, which could lead to sanctions for you, rather than simply stop using this website as a reference? To me, when I see that kind of behavior, it's typically a sign of a paid editor. Liz 09:24, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
- As a source for information about the work. Yes it's despicable, and as I said, no one takes it seriously, I'm not insinuating anything, admins can look into the IP themselves. John40332 (talk) 08:10, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
- It would be nice if an admin would compare the IP address 181.215.89.116 that told me to kill myself on my Talk Page, to existing users, now that would be fun to find out who is so against my edits, because so far the only action was a suspension. John40332 (talk) 08:58, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- Checkuser is not for fishing. - The Bushranger One ping only 09:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- In any case the most obvious guess is: some unrelated troll who saw your name on this board. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:40, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- Checkuser is not for fishing. - The Bushranger One ping only 09:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
It appears that there is consensus here and at WT:CM against linking to Sheet Music X. Is it possible for an admin to propose a resolution here? —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 17:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- The only consensus is your WP:OWN syndrome, the sources linked are reliable and fit for purpose. People have questioned my use of the source, not the reliability of it.
- You created this complaint stating that I'm a spammer, a bot or a compromised account, has that consensus been reached too ? John40332 (talk) 18:25, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, John40332, you are wrong about the lack of consensus, and there is clear consensus against you linking to that commercial sheet music sales site. So, either you agree to stop doing so, or you get subjected to formal sanctions. Which will it be? Cullen328 (talk) 18:38, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- So CurryTime can throw random accusations until something sticks? John40332 (talk) 18:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- OK, then. John40332 is indefinitely blocked from article space. The editor is free to make well-referenced, formal edit requests on article talk pages. The editor is warned that continuing to attempt to add links to Sheet Music X may lead to a sitewide block. The editor is advised to read the Guide to appealing blocks. Cullen328 (talk) 19:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I made well referenced edits directly from a reputable publisher. Enjoy the power trip. John40332 (talk) 19:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please refrain from personal attacks which violate policy. Cullen328 (talk) 19:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Let me quote Misplaced Pages's page for Power Trip "(...) someone in a position of greater power uses that power unjustifiably against a lower-ranking person, typically just for display of dominance.", since you showed up just to block me when I haven't even edited anything else until this incident was cleared. I didn't spam, I'm not a bot, my account isn't compromised, I referenced a reputable publisher that due to CurryTime's WP:COI and WP:OWN made him start this issue. John40332 (talk) 19:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Put that shovel down before you are indef blocked completely. increase indef block to all namespaces for battleground mentality. Lavalizard101 (talk) 19:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Let me quote Misplaced Pages's page for Power Trip "(...) someone in a position of greater power uses that power unjustifiably against a lower-ranking person, typically just for display of dominance.", since you showed up just to block me when I haven't even edited anything else until this incident was cleared. I didn't spam, I'm not a bot, my account isn't compromised, I referenced a reputable publisher that due to CurryTime's WP:COI and WP:OWN made him start this issue. John40332 (talk) 19:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please refrain from personal attacks which violate policy. Cullen328 (talk) 19:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I made well referenced edits directly from a reputable publisher. Enjoy the power trip. John40332 (talk) 19:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- OK, then. John40332 is indefinitely blocked from article space. The editor is free to make well-referenced, formal edit requests on article talk pages. The editor is warned that continuing to attempt to add links to Sheet Music X may lead to a sitewide block. The editor is advised to read the Guide to appealing blocks. Cullen328 (talk) 19:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- So CurryTime can throw random accusations until something sticks? John40332 (talk) 18:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, John40332, you are wrong about the lack of consensus, and there is clear consensus against you linking to that commercial sheet music sales site. So, either you agree to stop doing so, or you get subjected to formal sanctions. Which will it be? Cullen328 (talk) 18:38, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Historian5328
- Historian5328 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I have been dealing with persistent additions of unreferenced numbers to Somali Armed Forces, Somali Navy, etc for some time. Rolling them back - they're never supported by sources that validate the data, or the sources are distorted.
In the last couple of days a new user, User:Historian5328 has also started showing this behaviour. But in this edit he's entering fantasy territory, saying the Somali Armed Forces are equipped with the Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II, which has never been exported beyond the United States Air Force. I would request that any interested administrator consider this account for blocking. Kind regards and Happy New Year, Buckshot06 (talk) 21:37, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
- Editor clearly has some serious WP:CIR issues, given this WP:MADEUP stuff, and using...let's say non-reliable sources elsewhere, without responding to any of the notices on their talk page. I've pblocked them from articlespace so they can come here and explain themselves. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:05, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just noting that the editor's username is User:Historian5328, not User:Historian 5328 and they were informed of this discussion. Liz 00:40, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
- In the same regard, I would kindly request that any interested administrators review User_talk:YZ357980, who has been warned over and over and over again about adding unsourced and completely made up material (Somali Navy for example, consisting of 3,500 personnel..) Buckshot06 (talk) 03:51, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see you corrected their username in this report after I mentioned the mistake. Liz 07:19, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
- Liz, the original vandal and very problematic editor, who should be blocked immediately, was YZ357980. With all due regard to Historian5328, they display very similar behaviour, which immediately created a warning flag in my mind. Buckshot06 (talk) 21:03, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- I’m relatively new to Misplaced Pages editing and only recently discovered that there is even a talk page. Regarding the active personnel for the Somali Armed Forces, I listed approx 20,000–30,000 (2024) and included a citation, which I believe does not warrant being blocked. I’m a beginner in Misplaced Pages editing, have no malicious intent, and do not believe I should be blocked. Moreover, I read from a Somalia media source that the Somali government had acquired A-10 Thunderbolt II aircraft, believing the source to be authentic up until I discovered I was blocked. This was a mistake on my part, as I am new and inexperienced (2 days.) The individual who requested me to blocked must have had bad experiences which I’m not responsible for. I am requesting to be unblocked. Historian5328 (talk) 19:40, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
- Discussion continued on user's talk page. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:20, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
- In the same regard, I would kindly request that any interested administrators review User_talk:YZ357980, who has been warned over and over and over again about adding unsourced and completely made up material (Somali Navy for example, consisting of 3,500 personnel..) Buckshot06 (talk) 03:51, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just noting that the editor's username is User:Historian5328, not User:Historian 5328 and they were informed of this discussion. Liz 00:40, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
A reminder that the arbitration committee has designated the Horn of Africa a contentious topic, so don’t be afraid to lay down a CT advisory template for either user. 2600:1011:B32F:11B9:C826:BD54:45DF:3286 (talk) 08:30, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
- Both done - thanks for the reminder. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:23, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've removed the pblock on Historian5328 as it appears what was happening was 'new user unfamiliar with Misplaced Pages's policies on reliable sourcing', but best to keep an eye on their edits. - The Bushranger One ping only 18:32, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Vofa and removal of sourced information
NO ACTION AT THIS TIME Participants reminded to attempt communicating with other editors before reporting their behaviour to ANI. asilvering (talk) 21:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This seems to be an ongoing issue.
Vofa (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has lots of warnings about disruptive editing in their user page and a block.
Most recent example of removal of sourced information:
I checked the source and the information is there on page 7.
Previous examples include: . Also see: Talk:Finns#Vandalism_by_user:Vofa Bogazicili (talk) 16:23, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just to clarify, I just noticed that there is indeed an unsourced paragraph.
- The reason for removal of sourced information would then be "removed text not relevant to Chagatai Khanate and Golden Horde in introduction". However the source does mention
The first of the changes leading to the formation of the Turco-Mongolian tradition ...
and then gives Golden Horde and the Chagatai Khanate as examples. I don't see any WP:V or WP:DUE issues. - I am concerned about removal of sourced information that does not seem to have a rationale based on Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines Bogazicili (talk) 16:41, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hi there. The matter seems to be resolved. I did remove an unsourced paragraph and general claims not relevant to the introduction. I do not see a problem with it. You seem to have linked three edits I made. In the first edit, I had to revert because I accidentally chose the minor edit option. In the second edit, I have restored the previous version, but without a minor sign. I did not remove any sources (based on what I remember) I hope to see through my edits and understand what I did or did not do wrong. Please, avoid making an ANI in bad faith. Vofa (talk) 03:06, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- You removed source information. The part that starts with
The ruling Mongol elites ...
- @Asilvering: from the editor's talk page, you seem to be a mentor. Removing sources or sourced material without explanation, or with insufficient explanation or rationale, such as "Polished language" , is an ongoing concern with Vofa. Bogazicili (talk) 15:12, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- Im not sure why I’m being stalked, but the edits you’re showing as examples of myself removing sources are more than two months old. I’ve stopped removing sources. Vofa (talk) 19:38, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Asilvering: This issue is still continuing Bogazicili (talk) 15:14, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- And you previously spoke to Vofa about this where...? -- asilvering (talk) 19:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- asilvering, I hadn't talked about removing sourced material without sufficiently explaining the rationale.
- I did talk about this however . See: User_talk:Vofa#December_2024
- I don't seek or expect a permanent block over this. But as a mentor and an administrator, maybe you can comment on removing sourced material without sufficiently explaining the rationale. Bogazicili (talk) 19:35, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Bogazicili, that's a threat, not an explanation. If you have a content dispute with an editor, which is what this appears to be, you need to be able to talk it out with them on the article's Talk page. @Vofa, please be careful to make sure your edit summaries explain what you're doing. I see that there was an unsourced statement in the link Bogazicili just supplied, so I presume that's what you meant by "unsourced". But the other statement you removed did have a source. It's ok to split your edits up into multiple edits if you need to do that to explain them properly, but you could also just give an edit summary like "removed unsourced; also, removed statement " that addresses both changes. -- asilvering (talk) 23:19, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- Asilvering, I would not characterize this as a "content dispute". I was not involved in most of those articles. I got concerned after seeing edits market as minor removing sources or sourced material without any or proper explanation. That is not a content dispute, that is an editor conduct dispute. Bogazicili (talk) 07:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- What Vofa does at articles related to Turko-Mongolian history is not a content dispute but vandalism. It took me a lot of time to manually revert the hoax years and figures he added in Turkmens article to decrease their population and he also removed sourced basic info from the lede of the Merkit tribe which I had to restore. These are just some of few sneaky vandalism examples that I caught among the pages I patrol by Vofa. If you see his talk page, he has been warned a lot of times by many other editors for such mischief. Theofunny (talk) 07:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Theofunny, Vofa hasn't edited the Turkmens article since before they were blocked. That is obviously not an ongoing issue. As for Merkit, I also see no discussion of those edits. If you have a problem with how someone is editing, you need to communicate with them. -- asilvering (talk) 08:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Asilvering, my concerns were removal of sourced information or sources without proper rationale or explanation. Do you think that was communicated enough to Vofa in this topic, or do we need further communication? I'm asking in case Vofa continues this type of behavior. Hopefully that won't be the case. Bogazicili (talk) 08:29, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Im going to repeat this again;
- I have not removed any sources since I was warned about it.
- I do not see an issue with my recent editing.
- You should communicate with me on any issues that you have with me. Vofa (talk) 11:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Vofa, do you see any issues with this edit: Bogazicili (talk) 11:36, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Are you implying if I see an issue with this edit of mine or with your removal of said edit? Vofa (talk) 15:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Vofa, the former. I am asking if you see any issues yourself with your own linked edit. Bogazicili (talk) 17:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I do not see an issue with the linked edit of mine. Vofa (talk) 19:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Indeed, really the issue was Bogazicili's, and it has now been solved in the usual way (by restoring only the sourced content). Apologies, @Vofa, for misreading it earlier. -- asilvering (talk) 19:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Asilvering, I disagree. I did miss the unsourced paragraph. However, removal of sourced content has been an ongoing issue with Vofa. They should not have removed sourced content to begin with.
- There was also a previous discussion in ANI:
- Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1170#User:Vofa
- Asilvering, again, is the threshold of communication met if removing sourced content by Vofa persists in the future? Bogazicili (talk) 19:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Basically, I'm not trying to get Vofa blocked, but they should be more careful in future when they remove sources or sourced content. They should have a reasonable rationale based in Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines, and they should explain that rationale properly. Bogazicili (talk) 19:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Indeed they should. And you should not restore unsourced content once it has been removed. -- asilvering (talk) 20:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- asilvering, the difference is I already acknowledged it multiple times. Is that not obvious? Bogazicili (talk) 21:40, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Bogazicili, I'm going to close this report. No administrative action is required here at this time. You should make a habit of communicating on the article talk page when you get into a conflict with another editor, but you should always try to communicate with other editors before coming to ANI about their behaviour. This should be your last resort. If you make an earnest effort to communicate and are ignored, by all means report here. If there is edit-warring or obvious vandalism involved, please take that to the relevant noticeboard. -- asilvering (talk) 21:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- asilvering, the difference is I already acknowledged it multiple times. Is that not obvious? Bogazicili (talk) 21:40, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Indeed they should. And you should not restore unsourced content once it has been removed. -- asilvering (talk) 20:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Basically, I'm not trying to get Vofa blocked, but they should be more careful in future when they remove sources or sourced content. They should have a reasonable rationale based in Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines, and they should explain that rationale properly. Bogazicili (talk) 19:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I do not see an issue with the linked edit of mine. Vofa (talk) 19:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Vofa, the former. I am asking if you see any issues yourself with your own linked edit. Bogazicili (talk) 17:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Are you implying if I see an issue with this edit of mine or with your removal of said edit? Vofa (talk) 15:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Vofa, do you see any issues with this edit: Bogazicili (talk) 11:36, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you. Vofa (talk) 11:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Asilvering, my concerns were removal of sourced information or sources without proper rationale or explanation. Do you think that was communicated enough to Vofa in this topic, or do we need further communication? I'm asking in case Vofa continues this type of behavior. Hopefully that won't be the case. Bogazicili (talk) 08:29, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Theofunny, Vofa hasn't edited the Turkmens article since before they were blocked. That is obviously not an ongoing issue. As for Merkit, I also see no discussion of those edits. If you have a problem with how someone is editing, you need to communicate with them. -- asilvering (talk) 08:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- This member often vandalises, in an article about Oirats he wrote huge numbers without backing them up with sources and tried to prove it was true. This is rabid vandalism. Incall 12:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Incall, vandalism has a specific meaning on Misplaced Pages; an edit being unsourced does not mean it was vandalism. Do not cast aspersions on other editors in this way. @Vofa, you are edit-warring on Oirats. You need to stop doing that immediately. -- asilvering (talk) 19:26, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have not edited Oirats. I have stopped edit warring. Vofa (talk) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Incall, vandalism has a specific meaning on Misplaced Pages; an edit being unsourced does not mean it was vandalism. Do not cast aspersions on other editors in this way. @Vofa, you are edit-warring on Oirats. You need to stop doing that immediately. -- asilvering (talk) 19:26, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Bogazicili, that's a threat, not an explanation. If you have a content dispute with an editor, which is what this appears to be, you need to be able to talk it out with them on the article's Talk page. @Vofa, please be careful to make sure your edit summaries explain what you're doing. I see that there was an unsourced statement in the link Bogazicili just supplied, so I presume that's what you meant by "unsourced". But the other statement you removed did have a source. It's ok to split your edits up into multiple edits if you need to do that to explain them properly, but you could also just give an edit summary like "removed unsourced; also, removed statement " that addresses both changes. -- asilvering (talk) 23:19, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- And you previously spoke to Vofa about this where...? -- asilvering (talk) 19:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- You removed source information. The part that starts with
- Hi there. The matter seems to be resolved. I did remove an unsourced paragraph and general claims not relevant to the introduction. I do not see a problem with it. You seem to have linked three edits I made. In the first edit, I had to revert because I accidentally chose the minor edit option. In the second edit, I have restored the previous version, but without a minor sign. I did not remove any sources (based on what I remember) I hope to see through my edits and understand what I did or did not do wrong. Please, avoid making an ANI in bad faith. Vofa (talk) 03:06, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
Incivility and ABF in contentious topics
Hob Gadling's uncivil comments and assuming bad faith on multiple contentious talk pages is not necessarily egregious but I suppose it is problematic and chronic, consistent and ongoing. I would appreciate some assistance. Here are some diffs from the past few days:
Disparaging another editor's intellect and reasoning skills.
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Stephanie_Seneff&diff=prev&oldid=1266584883
WP:NPA
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Harald_Walach&diff=prev&oldid=1266713324
Profanity
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:James_Tour&diff=prev&oldid=1267046966
Assuming "malicious" intent; profanity; deprecating the editor
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory&diff=prev&oldid=1267154877
Unicivil
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Mick_West&diff=prev&oldid=1267158027
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267160441
Contact on user page attempted
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Hob_Gadling&diff=prev&oldid=1267160795
Assuming bad faith, accusing editor of being incompetent
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267163557Lardlegwarmers (talk) 03:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Think this calls for a fierce trout slapping and some direct words. I cannot really endorse a forced wikibreak according to WP:COOLDOWN, as this is just an angry user and frankly, I don't see direct personal attacks, I just see unfriendly behavior and prick-ish attitude, no outward disruption of the project either. Also, I have to ask for further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions, as
some diffs from the past few days
are not indicative of chronic issue. The holiday times, like Christmas, Hanukkah, and New Years' can be some of the most stressful times for people during the year. Not saying I like seeing this, but I can understand the feeling. BarntToust 04:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC)- Would I be the person to provide you with that
further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions
? I did think that it would be more than a WP:FISHSLAP, since that's forone-off instances of seemingly silly behavior
and this is more like a perpetual bad habit that needs something a bit stronger, like a stern warning. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 06:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Would I be the person to provide you with that
- @Lardlegwarmers: I don't see anything violating policy with regard to direct personal attacks or even profanity directed at a person, but rather directed to the topic in the discussion. Hob should know better, and as per BarntToust, Hob really deserves a trout to be a bit more civil and how to WP:AVOIDEDITWAR. But I would caution you about WP:BOOMERANG and the new attention to your activity and involvement this has drawn to your own edits. For example your inappropriate recently deleted user page, removing sections from other people's talk page, and it seems like you're having a problem handling a WP:DISPUTE and assuming bath faith of editors. You are not going to win a battle to get your material included by trying to report other editors in bad faith.
- Furthermore it does appear that you might be WP:FORUMSHOPPING because your attempts at WP:POVPUSH for your specific perspectives regarding Covid are meeting resistance at every turn. passively accusing editor behavior, directly accusing a specific editor bad behavior, claiming WP is political, RSN Report #1, RSN Report #2 to push for an article edit request, bringing the Covid discussion over to the teahouse, and now this ANI report. Without evaluating everything you've discussed in the past few weeks, at quick glance it appears that you're having problems understanding Misplaced Pages's policy and guidelines and are having contentious discussions with far more experienced editors. That isn't to say that we assume that they're correct and you're wrong, but when you're receiving pushback from multiple very experienced editors, I would encourage you to slow down a bit and try to fully understand the policy, and isntead of arguing to "win", you need to read about how you need to work towards WP:CONSENSUS. Because at the end of the day, without consensus, you will continue to have a lot of problems. TiggerJay (talk) 05:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I appreciate the feedback and will take it into consideration and try to refine my approach to disputes. My intention has been to address unique issues as they arise, versus shopping around the same old dispute. For example, the current ANI topic pertains specifically to some rude behavior that has been going on for quite some time and doesn't show any sign of stopping despite my attempts to resolve it directly. The editor in question actually seems pretty reasonable in their interpretation of the sources but I speculate that there might be a perception in the rank-and-file that it's OK to be pretty uncivil to editors who advocate for moving the NPOV because they're naturally afraid of putting their own head on the chopping block, so to speak. I suppose raising these issues in relevant venues is in line with guidelines. Both of those RSN discussions were related to distinct sourcing problems and resulted in useful resolutions that aligned with my concerns. The Teahouse posts about the Covid content disputes and a question regarding the politics of Misplaced Pages was in response to an administrator’s suggestion (]) that I drop by there for a discussion, and I found the feedback from experienced users there helpful. My talk page comments about user behavior were meant to discuss issues first on talk pages, per the ANI guidelines. (
All content and conduct issues should be discussed first at the talk page of the relevant article or user before requesting dispute resolution.
]) Thank you for your time and input. - Lardlegwarmers (talk) 07:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I hope the editors who read this will notice the ABF here:
trying to report other editors in bad faith
. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 21:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I appreciate the feedback and will take it into consideration and try to refine my approach to disputes. My intention has been to address unique issues as they arise, versus shopping around the same old dispute. For example, the current ANI topic pertains specifically to some rude behavior that has been going on for quite some time and doesn't show any sign of stopping despite my attempts to resolve it directly. The editor in question actually seems pretty reasonable in their interpretation of the sources but I speculate that there might be a perception in the rank-and-file that it's OK to be pretty uncivil to editors who advocate for moving the NPOV because they're naturally afraid of putting their own head on the chopping block, so to speak. I suppose raising these issues in relevant venues is in line with guidelines. Both of those RSN discussions were related to distinct sourcing problems and resulted in useful resolutions that aligned with my concerns. The Teahouse posts about the Covid content disputes and a question regarding the politics of Misplaced Pages was in response to an administrator’s suggestion (]) that I drop by there for a discussion, and I found the feedback from experienced users there helpful. My talk page comments about user behavior were meant to discuss issues first on talk pages, per the ANI guidelines. (
@Lardlegwarmers: Jay brought something to my attention with a recent version of your user page. It looks like there is large language model (ChatGPT) text about "COVID-19 Natural Immunity" copied and pasted on there. What in the cheeseballs?? What made you think hmm, let's prompt ShatGPT to churn out 700 words about this random out-of-pocket topic, and I'm gonna post this on my Misplaced Pages user page for no reason! I'm confused. This specific revision also assumes bad faith about IP editors, and here's the rich part: just as you copy-pasted text from ChatGPT about COVID to your user page, you go on to write a section that addresses use of AI. Quoting from an AI chat bot without attribution is plaigiarism.
I'm just confused with what you are doing here. So I'd like to ask you, since you are here at ANI now, what in the sam hill is going on here? If there is a reasonable explanation for this goofiness, I suggest you produce one, not from a prompt entered into ChatGPT, in your own words. BarntToust 16:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- It is an old version of their user page, and it is not plagiarism to quote from a chat bot even without attribution, so we must assume that you are attempt to detract from the OP's complaint. The issue at hand is an experienced editor who joins talk page discussions without understanding the topic at hand (which they admit in one instance ), and are frequently use derogatory language and tone towards other editors. This behavior does not seem like a new thing for them and they clearly know how to skirt the edge of what would be considered a personal attack by an admin, so this merits a formal warning. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- look, the other guy is acting pissy, and I agree with the formal warning. But @IntrepidContributor, you should familiarise yourself with WP:BOOMERANG. The long short of it if you didn't click on one of the several instances of it being linked above: If an editor attempts to bring someone else to ANI while having dirty laundry themselves, this editor will likely be found out for their dirty laundry. And that's what I'm doing right now. BarntToust 18:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I know what WP:BOOMERANG is and I telling you that you appears to be here only to detract from the complaint, and the way you are doing it by dragging up something from old user page and making claims of plagirism is highly suspect. If an admin scrolls through Hob's comments on the lab leak topic page, they will see that they are almost all designed to provoke and demean other editors. This highly inappropriate for such a difficult topic area where editors struggle to agree on NPOV. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- So far, there's agreement that this is unbecoming behaviour from Hob, and they need a WP:TROUT slap to wake them the heck up from the bad behaviour. I do not understand why the jester cannot be questioned for his goofy behaviour when he shows himself to be goofy as he tries to alert everyone of the fool's, uh, foolishness. No offence intended from this medieval analogy. BarntToust 18:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- BarntToust You're being bitey and you need to stop. WP:BOOMERANG is for when the reporter is the one causing the problems, not for airing "dirty laundry" as you yourself describe it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- well, I tend to get concerned when someone with LLM text pasted on their userpage comes up from the water. If that's considered bite-y to reiterate my concerns in intentional lighthearted analogy in order to seem less hard-headed, then I guess we're done here. @Thebiguglyalien, I invite you to weigh in on whether you think a formal warning or a trout slap is what needs to happen to Hob. BarntToust 19:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- BarntToust You're being bitey and you need to stop. WP:BOOMERANG is for when the reporter is the one causing the problems, not for airing "dirty laundry" as you yourself describe it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- So far, there's agreement that this is unbecoming behaviour from Hob, and they need a WP:TROUT slap to wake them the heck up from the bad behaviour. I do not understand why the jester cannot be questioned for his goofy behaviour when he shows himself to be goofy as he tries to alert everyone of the fool's, uh, foolishness. No offence intended from this medieval analogy. BarntToust 18:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I know what WP:BOOMERANG is and I telling you that you appears to be here only to detract from the complaint, and the way you are doing it by dragging up something from old user page and making claims of plagirism is highly suspect. If an admin scrolls through Hob's comments on the lab leak topic page, they will see that they are almost all designed to provoke and demean other editors. This highly inappropriate for such a difficult topic area where editors struggle to agree on NPOV. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- look, the other guy is acting pissy, and I agree with the formal warning. But @IntrepidContributor, you should familiarise yourself with WP:BOOMERANG. The long short of it if you didn't click on one of the several instances of it being linked above: If an editor attempts to bring someone else to ANI while having dirty laundry themselves, this editor will likely be found out for their dirty laundry. And that's what I'm doing right now. BarntToust 18:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- That content from ChatGPT was meant to go in my sandbox as experiment or for assisting with research into a future article. The LLM can generate wikitext with links to articles that already exist. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 18:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- When you get a bunch of text from a large language model, you get unsourced content. If you ask ChatGPT for info, you run the serious risk of getting false content. So, either way you take it: If you get text, then try to re-write it cohesively, and find sources for it, you are writing an article backwards and that is to be discouraged; if you are asking AI to gain an understanding on an unfamiliar topic, you are likely to run into false information. If you use AI for either of these purposes, @Lardlegwarmers, I suggest you be very judicious about how you go about "leveraging AI". There are more ways that can go wrong than I need to count on the ANI. BarntToust 18:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why are you on this administrator page making these spurious claims of plagiarism and giving this unsolicited advices? IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- @IntrepidContributor, I'm pointing out questionable content on someone else page. please look at this diff on Lardle's user page for context, in which they copied ChatGPT text without attribution, then said that using ChatGPT without attribution is plagiarism. That contradictory stuff is what I was questioning. please click on the diff for context. BarntToust 19:11, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I use it more like a (really good) search engine or a thesaurus. It can give a lot of suggestions for a human writer, but ultimately you use your own mind and RS to formulate the facts and how to present them. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 19:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- that's a good moderation mindset to use. I'm satisfied with your answer, it makes enough sense. Carry on! BarntToust 19:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks! *curtsy* Lardlegwarmers (talk) 00:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- that's a good moderation mindset to use. I'm satisfied with your answer, it makes enough sense. Carry on! BarntToust 19:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why are you on this administrator page making these spurious claims of plagiarism and giving this unsolicited advices? IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- When you get a bunch of text from a large language model, you get unsourced content. If you ask ChatGPT for info, you run the serious risk of getting false content. So, either way you take it: If you get text, then try to re-write it cohesively, and find sources for it, you are writing an article backwards and that is to be discouraged; if you are asking AI to gain an understanding on an unfamiliar topic, you are likely to run into false information. If you use AI for either of these purposes, @Lardlegwarmers, I suggest you be very judicious about how you go about "leveraging AI". There are more ways that can go wrong than I need to count on the ANI. BarntToust 18:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- The lack of civility in this contentious topic is significantly hindering editing efforts, especially since most issues concern neutrality and tone, which requires a careful and nuanced approach. IntrepidContributor (talk) 17:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I can't see anything in the original report that does anything other than show that Hob Gadling calls a thicko a thicko. What is wrong with that? Phil Bridger (talk) 18:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Phil Bridger As someone who was the recipient of one of those attacks in the example, I'm curious, what is a "thicko" and why do you believe that I am one? Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 19:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- ...according to the Cambridge English Dictionary, it means "a stupid person" - which would make it a personal attack. - The Bushranger One ping only 19:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, in British slang, "thick" = "stupid". GiantSnowman 19:54, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- ...according to the Cambridge English Dictionary, it means "a stupid person" - which would make it a personal attack. - The Bushranger One ping only 19:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Phil Bridger As someone who was the recipient of one of those attacks in the example, I'm curious, what is a "thicko" and why do you believe that I am one? Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 19:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
There is not enough context for the examples of impatience from Hob Gadling which the OP offers. For example, Lardlegwarmers, do you really expect a warm welcome for your 'attempted contact on user page' here? Or for your puritanical reproaches about HG's use of "profanity" (which normally turns out to mean using the word bullshit, which is by no means banned from Misplaced Pages, nor is its expressiveness easy to replace with something more flattering). Considering what they're replying to, this supposed "disparag of another editor's intellect and reasoning skills" seems pretty temperate. And so on. Bishonen | tålk 20:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC).
- I'm not suggesting we should wash anybody's mouth out with soap. The editor's consistent uncivil behavior is more than just the occasional salty diction here and there. I mean, look at this user page discussion where an editor is asking for a discussion on why Hob Gadling reverted his edit. It seems as if the person was trying to do it on the talk page and was ignored. Hob Gadling gruffly tells the other editor to get lost. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 01:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- My experience is that this kind of aggression is standard operating procedure for the defendant. I'd basically given up on them seeing any consequences for it - it's been going on for a long time, so I assumed this is one of the cases where editors with enough "social capital" get an exemption from CIVIL. I doubt a trout will have lasting effect. - Palpable (talk) 02:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- My experience with and attitude toward Hob is 100% the same as described here by Palpable. It goes back a while ... ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 22:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Hob Gadling failing to yield to WP:BLPRESTORE, apparently missing both the discussion and RSN link from the talk page. Asserting an unreliable source as reliable in order to describe the subject as having a ‘victim complex’. SmolBrane (talk) 23:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Note that Hob edited the talk page after re-adding this content; he should have self reverted if he missed this discussion prior. SmolBrane (talk) 00:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Propose serving of trout to both. Hob likely may have acted a hair too strongly to a source of exasperation; but not enough for any warning. Lardlegwarmers provides a large helping of such and I would suggest a boom if not for BITE. Albeit, Lardlegwarmers’ knowledge of WP is beyond the average for an editor with 5x the posts. I would suggest a non-logged warning to Lardlegwarmers on the concept of collaboration for their own good. Otherwise, we are likely to see them back here given their attitude at both this filing and at Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory. (Disclaimer, I have been involved.) O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- For context, O3000, Ret. is on the other "side" from me in a content dispute along with Hob Gadling (])Lardlegwarmers (talk) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am on the "side" of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines and am not arguing any content issues here. But I did state I was involved. O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Best not to imply that your opposition is not on the side of the rules. Given this comment and your involvement, I think you should recuse. SmolBrane (talk) 00:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Recuse
Appears that you have over 500 edits to Covid related article pages including their TPs. That's approaching 50% of your lifetime edits and 250 times the percentage of my edits in that area. Consider that in your short time here, you were blocked for egregious and repeated bad-faith assumptions. Probably should avoid that in future as this appears to be the same. Meanwhile, I stand by my post here and involved editors add value; so I will not suggest that you recuse. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- To be clear, I was suggesting recusing from proposals, not from discussion. Regards. SmolBrane (talk) 02:10, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Recuse
- Best not to imply that your opposition is not on the side of the rules. Given this comment and your involvement, I think you should recuse. SmolBrane (talk) 00:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am on the "side" of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines and am not arguing any content issues here. But I did state I was involved. O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- If you click through the diffs, you’ll notice that many other editors have received the rude comments, so this is more than a 1-on-1 scuffle with me and Hob Gadling. I stopped compiling examples after finding 9 examples of visible hostility out of their most recent dozen diffs, but like I mentioned to BarntToust above, I can go back further if you need me to, to illustrate the chronic pattern. And the handful of other editors who have spoken up here who have been aggrieved speak for themselves. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 03:31, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- For context, O3000, Ret. is on the other "side" from me in a content dispute along with Hob Gadling (])Lardlegwarmers (talk) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- As a note, Hob Gadling removed the ANI notice without comment and has not responded here. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hob Gadling is allowed to do whatever they want to their user talk page including removing notifications of discussions. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 00:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Never said they weren't. Just noting that they clearly received the notice and chose not to respond here, which is a response in and of itself. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hob Gadling is allowed to do whatever they want to their user talk page including removing notifications of discussions. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 00:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
Wish Hob Gadling would not act like a profane teenager on talk page discussions and that they'd treat people without the smartass-y-ness and contempt. If they are so committed to being pissy towards other users while being shut-off in their own la-la-land, maybe they need a block until they're willing to face the music. BarntToust 01:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
It should be noted that Lardlegwarmers, after only truly starting editing two months ago, has been actively pushing WP:FRINGE misinformation, particularly on Covid related pages. They have actively been making claims that the scientific community is trying to cover things up, such as here, and has been using poor quality sources to try and claim that major published scientific papers on the topic are false, such as here. This entire thread just sounds like an attempt to silence another editor who has been actively dealing with fringe POV-pushers across numerous articles, such as those linked by Lardlegwarmers above. Silverseren 02:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning. And it seems that's the case here. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 02:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I haven't seen any evidence presented that would put Hob Gadling in the wrong; after reviewing the diffs I'm scratching my head and can only conclude that some of the people above have been commenting without reading them. Most of them are not even mildly uncivil. Going over them, the majority are clearly criticizing someone's argument (or the specific reasoning they presented), which is not a personal attack; and others aren't violations at all. Misplaced Pages editors are not forbidden from using profanity; the fact that Lardlegwarmers' unconvincing throw-every-unconnected-thing-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks approach here extended to the fact that their target used the word (gasp!)
bullshit
to describe an argument that did, in fact, turn out to be bullshit shows how weak it is. What's more alarming is that that was what led Lardlewarmers to try and their target on their talk page, a hamhanded effort whose sheer inappropriateness they remain sufficiently tone-deaf to that they made the mistake of bragging about it here as part of their "report". This is a straightforward WP:BOOMERANG situation. --Aquillion (talk) 02:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC)- There's only so much we can handle when someone has had five years to fulfill their promise and "turn over a new leaf" in situations like this one. Misplaced Pages would be better off if people were more willing to tell people to stop before it's too late and stop treating aggressive or uncivil behavior as a "lesser" crime. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 03:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- The reason I cited numerous diffs was to substantiate, as I said in my post, that this is a chronic and ongoing habit of rude and uncivil behavior. I posted the diff of Hob Gadling's user page not to "brag" (and I don't understand how you inferred that), but rather to show that I followed ANI procedure to address conduct disputes first on the user page and that my attempt was dismissed without Hob Gadling addressing it except to blank the comment with the explantion that I wasn't welcome on his page.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I haven't seen any evidence presented that would put Hob Gadling in the wrong; after reviewing the diffs I'm scratching my head and can only conclude that some of the people above have been commenting without reading them. Most of them are not even mildly uncivil. Going over them, the majority are clearly criticizing someone's argument (or the specific reasoning they presented), which is not a personal attack; and others aren't violations at all. Misplaced Pages editors are not forbidden from using profanity; the fact that Lardlegwarmers' unconvincing throw-every-unconnected-thing-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks approach here extended to the fact that their target used the word (gasp!)
- I am not trying to silence anyone. See above, I recommend a stern warning about consistent uncivil comments and that’s it. If Hob Gadling has something substantive to say, they can say it without demeaning the editors as if this is a combat sport instead of a discussion about articles of text. I encourage y'all to check out the discussions linked to by Silverseren. I have been careful to use sources, present my suggestions in good faith, and stay neutral in personal interactions. I am genuinely trying to find consensus. I'll mention that Silverseren is also involved in the content dispute, providing sources that myself and several other editors believe do not verify an extraordinary claim in the article. (Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory#c-Silver_seren-20241231185800-Slatersteven-20241230182700) It's getting to the point where we should do a content moderation over that, since I am sure that the sources do not verify the claim but Silverseren apparently is sure that they do. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 03:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it was probably a poor choice for you to reference Silverseren's discussion as proof of one-sided UNCIVIL behavior. There is precious little in your first response to Hob in this specific LL section that makes your point that that you're trying to find consensus, but rather demonstrates a heavy handed I'm right because I can cite more WP policies in bolded type. As the Alien above said, you
Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning.
now WP:DROPTHESTICK. TiggerJay (talk) 18:57, 6 January 2025 (UTC)- No, TiggerJay, that is false. Except for one link to Misplaced Pages:Civility, the links you mentioned are all main-space articles to describe the fallacies contained in Hob Gadling's arguments, including the use of ad hominem, as part of my intention to focus on and steer the conversation towards a discussion of the content, not attacking the person (Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory#c-Lardlegwarmers-20250103194100-Hob Gadling-20250102085800). This is the second comment you have posted in this discussion that mischaracterizes my actions and falsely accuses me of bad faith.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 19:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- For the record I do agree with you that Hob's position was absolutely a fallacy; I might assume they might have even been bating you. I also agree that you also have references to main space article, beyond the single reference to policy. I even agree that there is an probably conflict of interest with those virologists you named, but unless their editing Misplaced Pages that is irrelevant unless you're performing WP:OR or WP:SYNTH, rather we depend on WP:RS and WP:UNDUE to help navigate such things. You claimed that you intented to
steer the conversation towards a discussion of the content, not attacking the person
. However, that is not what I read in that reply. Out of the gate you're calling Hob uncivil, their arguments are false, and then lobbing further accusations. You get the discussion wrapped up arguing over who said what, and what they meant by it, and why your positions are valid and theirs are not. As for bad faith, I'll invite to other editors to comment below if they agree that I'm the one presuming bad faith towards you. Cheers! TiggerJay (talk) 00:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- Your point about RS is well-taken. However, per WP:RS, concerns about the reliability of a particular source ought to be discussed on the article talk page (Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2#c-Lardlegwarmers-20250105151700-Credibility_of_major_scientific_journals_on_Covid) first when it is only germane to the particular topic and not the publication as a whole.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 00:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think I understand what you're referring to about RS. Yes, there are times when a source is otherwise considered reliable (or even un-reliable) but consensus can be found with regards to a specific narrow aspect of it that might warrant it's inclusion or exclusions, or some variation on how it is presented or the weight afforded to it in the article. And that comes through talk page consensus as you mentioned and does not necessarily need to be unanimous. TiggerJay (talk) 01:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Your point about RS is well-taken. However, per WP:RS, concerns about the reliability of a particular source ought to be discussed on the article talk page (Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2#c-Lardlegwarmers-20250105151700-Credibility_of_major_scientific_journals_on_Covid) first when it is only germane to the particular topic and not the publication as a whole.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 00:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- For the record I do agree with you that Hob's position was absolutely a fallacy; I might assume they might have even been bating you. I also agree that you also have references to main space article, beyond the single reference to policy. I even agree that there is an probably conflict of interest with those virologists you named, but unless their editing Misplaced Pages that is irrelevant unless you're performing WP:OR or WP:SYNTH, rather we depend on WP:RS and WP:UNDUE to help navigate such things. You claimed that you intented to
- No, TiggerJay, that is false. Except for one link to Misplaced Pages:Civility, the links you mentioned are all main-space articles to describe the fallacies contained in Hob Gadling's arguments, including the use of ad hominem, as part of my intention to focus on and steer the conversation towards a discussion of the content, not attacking the person (Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory#c-Lardlegwarmers-20250103194100-Hob Gadling-20250102085800). This is the second comment you have posted in this discussion that mischaracterizes my actions and falsely accuses me of bad faith.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 19:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it was probably a poor choice for you to reference Silverseren's discussion as proof of one-sided UNCIVIL behavior. There is precious little in your first response to Hob in this specific LL section that makes your point that that you're trying to find consensus, but rather demonstrates a heavy handed I'm right because I can cite more WP policies in bolded type. As the Alien above said, you
Being entirely blunt, if we have two visions of Misplaced Pages: one in which people are occasionally rude or incivil to people who tout pseudoscience concerning major diseases and one in which pseudoscience concerning major diseases makes its way into article space then I'll gladly sign up for the rude / incivil Misplaced Pages over the pseudoscience one. This is to say that being rude is most certainly a lesser offense
. Simonm223 (talk) 20:23, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please check out the article and discussion. The lab leak theory is not pseudoscience, but rather a scientific hypothesis which important scientists have suggested is worthy of serious investigation (]). Although the evidence strongly favors a zoonotic origin, the investigation is inconclusive. In any case, I would favor a Misplaced Pages where civil discussion leads to a balanced representation of what is published in reliable sources. If your position is supported by the sources, there is no need to resort to name calling. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 20:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's pseudoscience and a pseudoscientific hypotheses burdened with quite a few racist and conspiracist adherents who want to propose China intentionally spread a plague just to weaken the United States. Preventing the promulgation of this specific pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic. Simonm223 (talk) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- What you are describing is a different idea: the COVID-19 bioweapon conspiracy theory. The lab leak hypothesis would be that the pandemic started due to researchers being accidentally infected with the virus.
the World Health Organization is recommending in its strongest terms yet that a deeper probe is required into whether a lab accident may be to blame. ]
The fact that the virus is not human-made does not necessarily exclude the possibility that the virus escaped the lab by accident (Field 2020; Guterl et al. 2020). This remains an open question; without independent and transparent investigations, it may never be either proven or disproven. The leakage of dangerous pathogens had already occurred more than once in other labs.
(]) Lardlegwarmers (talk) 21:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC)- That's not what the article is about. It is about a "conspiracy theory". But this is entirely irrelevant to this noticeboard. This noticeboard is about behavior, not content. It can be extraordinarily frustrating to those who have been building this encyclopedia for ages (20 years in the case of Hob Gadling) to deal with large numbers of brandy new editors trying to push new conspiracy theories, often politically motivated. If you wish respect, try supplying some yourself. Believe me, it will aide you in your work here. I stand by my proposal of trouting you both and an unlogged warning to you that is for your own good if you wish to continue contributing. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Beyond what @Objective3000 said, for all parties, it doesn't matter who is "right" (when it comes to the article or talk pages), that is not sufficient to be uncivil WP:BRINE. TiggerJay (talk) 01:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Indeed. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- If Hob Gadling wants to "deal with" new editors who threaten Misplaced Pages, it should not be through aggression and insulting them openly, but through quality sources and discussion. Editors who sympathize with "fringe" ideas might be more cooperative if they didn't have to defend themselves against offensive comments in response to their suggestions. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 07:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Beyond what @Objective3000 said, for all parties, it doesn't matter who is "right" (when it comes to the article or talk pages), that is not sufficient to be uncivil WP:BRINE. TiggerJay (talk) 01:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's not what the article is about. It is about a "conspiracy theory". But this is entirely irrelevant to this noticeboard. This noticeboard is about behavior, not content. It can be extraordinarily frustrating to those who have been building this encyclopedia for ages (20 years in the case of Hob Gadling) to deal with large numbers of brandy new editors trying to push new conspiracy theories, often politically motivated. If you wish respect, try supplying some yourself. Believe me, it will aide you in your work here. I stand by my proposal of trouting you both and an unlogged warning to you that is for your own good if you wish to continue contributing. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- If this "old grievance" about the FTN exemption to CIVIL really has been thoroughly hashed out, could someone link the discussion from WP:FTNCIVIL or something? Being up front about it would save time here at ANI, plus it's always heartbreaking to watch as earnest new editors learn about this the hard way. - Palpable (talk) 01:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Palpable, were you canvassed to this conversation? You seem to be a very inactive editor. I've made more IP edits in a month than you have edits in two decades. I'm curious how such a new editor found this. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 01:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am in the diffs.
- I would still like a pointer to the discussion of why FTN regulars get an exemption from CIVIL, I honestly think that should be better understood. - Palpable (talk) 02:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- They don't have an exemption, and I challenge you to provide a diff proving they do. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 03:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think he was referring to the comment by Simonm223 above:
Preventing the promulgation of this specific pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic.
] Lardlegwarmers (talk) 07:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think he was referring to the comment by Simonm223 above:
- They don't have an exemption, and I challenge you to provide a diff proving they do. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 03:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Palpable, were you canvassed to this conversation? You seem to be a very inactive editor. I've made more IP edits in a month than you have edits in two decades. I'm curious how such a new editor found this. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 01:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- What you are describing is a different idea: the COVID-19 bioweapon conspiracy theory. The lab leak hypothesis would be that the pandemic started due to researchers being accidentally infected with the virus.
- It's pseudoscience and a pseudoscientific hypotheses burdened with quite a few racist and conspiracist adherents who want to propose China intentionally spread a plague just to weaken the United States. Preventing the promulgation of this specific pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic. Simonm223 (talk) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
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User lobbying fringe subculture off-site for fringe subculture and suspicions of WP:MEATPUPPETry
It's said that Checkuser is not for fishing - well, ANI is also not a place to bring fishing expeditions. If you have evidence of recent misconduct by an editor, then by all means bring it. But if you justmore would come to light, expect a {{trout}}ing. I'm closing this as unactionable with a fish for the OP, and a caution to in the future compile evidence before coming to ANI. - The Bushranger One ping only 18:27, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Over at cryptozoology and the very questionable list of cryptids, both extremely WP:FRINGE topics strongly linked to for example Young Earth creationism, myself and a few other users find ourselves having to respond to a lot of accounts that either openly or less than openly state that they're members of the article's subject subculture and that, like the subculture's founders, have a strong distaste for experts (here's an example anti-RS/anti-expert comment from today from one such fairly new account, @KanyeWestDropout:).
One of these editors, Paleface Jack (talk · contribs), has been caught lobbying off site (right here). The user has also likely done so elsewhere that hasn't come to light. This user's efforts appear to have led to a variety of WP:MEATPUPPETs popping up to WP:Wikilawyer any and all changes they disagree with, an effort to shape the articles to the subculture's preference.
Again, it's important to emphasize that not only has Paleface Jack been caught red-handed here but he has likely also lobbied elsewhere, leading to long-term problems for these and associated articles.
As some users here know, I edit a lot on fringe topics and have all but single-handedly written our coverage on topics like cryptozoology, utilizing nothing but the highest quality possible sources. Along the way, I've endured relentless insults and less-than-pleasant anonymous messages. I've been a personal target for users like Paleface Jack and co for years.
As is far too typical in our WP:FRINGE spaces, any action by myself and others introducing WP:RS on these articles is responded to with endless talk page lawyering and complaints from these cryptozoology-associated or -aligned editors, who fill talk pages with page after page of insult-ladden chatter about anything that doesn't fit their preferred messaging. This not infrequently includes insults toward non-adherents abiding by WP:RS and WP:NPOV (as an example, recently one of the users decided to refer to me as a "wikifascist", for example). This pattern has been going on for years and is a clear indication of long-term Misplaced Pages:Disruptive editing and I've frankly put up wth it for far too long.
This is an all too common pattern that many editors who edit in new religious movement, pseudoscience, or fringe spaces will recognize as an unfortunate reality of editing in these spaces on the site.
I recommend that Paleface Jack be topic banned for off-site lobbying for meatpuppets, if nothing else, as well as likely associated accounts per WP:MEATPUPPET. :bloodofox: (talk) 05:41, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think you're misinterpreting what I said. I don't have any disdain for Loxton and Prothero, all I said was that cryptozoologists have historically discussed a large number of "cryptids" which is something you could see from reading cryptozoologist papers ans books. I've previously cited Loxton/Prothero on cryptozoological wikipedia pages KanyeWestDropout (talk) 06:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- This user's actual comment in response to my mention of Prothero & Loxton, a dreaded WP:RS: "Learning about cryptozoologists by reading secondhand sources is a poor way to find out what cryptozoologists have actually done historically" (). Funny how a spotlight on ANI can change an editor's tune. :bloodofox: (talk) 07:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thaf didnt change my tune at all! I mentioned that I personally liked that book before you posted this KanyeWestDropout (talk) 14:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- This user's actual comment in response to my mention of Prothero & Loxton, a dreaded WP:RS: "Learning about cryptozoologists by reading secondhand sources is a poor way to find out what cryptozoologists have actually done historically" (). Funny how a spotlight on ANI can change an editor's tune. :bloodofox: (talk) 07:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- The incident Bloodoffox is referring to happened years ago when I did not know that was even a rule. It was a mistake I have not repeated, nor have I violated any rules since that incident.
- That being said, Bloodoffox has a history of antagonizing other users associated with the topic. I am not aware of any of the other occasions where he has been harassed by users, so I sympathize. There are bad editors on this site that do that behavior or make edits that are, in kinder words, sloppy. Fringe topics are constrained as they are to avoid pandering or making it a massive advocation for them and should remain within the neutral guidelines that are enforced on fringe topics.
- Yes, the topics do need a lot of work, and its hard to find the few good editors that know what they are doing with fringe topics. I myself follow the topic out of interest, not advocacy, and I rarely edit on it mainly cause of a backlog of other projects. I don't pop on to cause trouble as Bloodoffox loves to accuse me of, among the many personal attacks he has made against me. I have had no such incidents since my mistake way back in the day and I have not made any since then. The sole reason I commented in the discussion was because I could see it was rapidly devolving into an antagonistic nature, and though my words could have been put differently, I always wrote that we "needed to find common ground". It has become a point of frustration with this, because of personal attacks on my character and what I have contributed to this site. I am not a disruptor by any means and Bloodoffox has keep making accusations or belittling comments in regards to me and other users who disagree with him. His aggressive and belittling behavior has a huge role in antagonizing other users and it does need to stop. I might be frustrated, but I cannot see how this does any good with moving projects and topics forwards. Banning me from the topic is unnecessary and overkill. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paleface Jack (talk • contribs)
- If the only example of off-wiki canvasing is a single blog post from seven years ago, I'm not seeing any case for sanctions. - Bilby (talk) 07:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is the only clear incident I've encountered. However, there's good reason to suspect that there's more. Note also that although the user is happy to apologize about it when called on it here, the user also never deleted the off-site lobbying on the cryptozoology wiki. :bloodofox: (talk) 07:21, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I can see a case for a {{trout}} for the OP, at the very least. (Trout-erang?) - The Bushranger One ping only 07:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, Bloodofox, if this has been a contentious area to edit in (there are many such areas on the project) but we can't sanction editors based on suspicions, we require evidence of misconduct and if it is off-wiki behavior, it might be more appropriate to send it to ARBCOM. You have provided a narrative statement of how difficult it is to edit in this field but with few diffs illustrating conflict and other editors have providing competing narratives. This isn't your first trip to ANI so you know what is required here for an admin to take action. And if you do provide some more evidence, I encourage you to provide RECENT evidence (like from the past 3 years), not diffs or statements from when an editor was new and unfamiliar with Misplaced Pages policies and practices. Liz 08:23, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- While the editor has been been editing since 2013 and his off-site post was from 2018 (yet somehow claims to not know it was not OK to canvas for meatpuppets off-site), I figured this might be the case and hoped more would come to light about what's going on off-site (I expect more will, in which case I'll return). :bloodofox: (talk) 08:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- As I have said before, I am not used to conflict on the site and naively did that. If you look back at that whole debate, I did reply saying I was not aware that it was bad. If you look at my history of edits, I rarely (if ever) participate in conflict. I prefer to edit like everyone else on here in a constructive and beneficial manner, so all those accusations strike a nerve with me as they are both untrue and slander. As I have said previously, bloodoffox has a history of provoking conflict by aggressive behavior towards other editors, even when those editors are in the wrong they should not be treated with the level of disdain and contempt. Slandering myself or others either based on an isolated and admitted mistake, then constantly bringing it up as "proof" of his claims that I am an instigator of any sort of conflict he has with others is behavior that only inspires destructive conflicts or edits. I have, in the past, reached out to bloodoffox to apologize and also offer assistance with other projects thinking that would mend any sort of anger and hate. This recent incident has proved me wrong and I am sad to see that it has come to this. I never wanted any conflict, just a healthy way of moving forwards to tackle fascinating and notable topics.
- I will admit that it is frustratingly difficult to make edits on fringe topics, I am one of those people that tried to edit some but got frustrated by the overly tight restrictions on the subject (not that I was leaning to one side as some claim I do), which is why I rarely edit on the topic and only do so when I see that there is reliable information benefiting and fitting of the standards set by Misplaced Pages. I love information, and even fringe topics have enough within Misplaced Pages's confines to exist on the site and be a fascinating read for people. I truly hope you read this bloodoffox and realize I never meant you ill or advocate for people harassing you, I want this platform to explore information correctly and efficiently, even if we do not agree with the topic. That is pretty much all that should be said on this matter and hopefully it gets resolved. Paleface Jack (talk) 17:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- While the editor has been been editing since 2013 and his off-site post was from 2018 (yet somehow claims to not know it was not OK to canvas for meatpuppets off-site), I figured this might be the case and hoped more would come to light about what's going on off-site (I expect more will, in which case I'll return). :bloodofox: (talk) 08:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
Taboo of archaeologists
This is fundamentally a content dispute, I see nothing admin-actionable here. 331dot (talk) 10:31, 4 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This is about by Jahuah. They claim that an unprovenanced archaeological object is authentic. Bona fide archaeologists are not allowed to discuss unprovenanced objects in public. It's a taboo of their profession. So, no bona fide archaeologist can give the lie to the authenticity of that object without losing their job. Since if they mention that object in public they get sacked. tgeorgescu (talk) 06:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Lol, reporting on me? Jahuah (talk) 06:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Give me an actual reason why the specific seal in question is not authentic? How about that? Quote me an actual scholar who does? If not, then your words mean jack. Jahuah (talk) 06:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- According to critical rationalism, the claim that such object is authentic is unfalsifiable. Since it is taboo to discuss such object in public. So only biased hacks could affirm it is authentic or inauthentic without losing their jobs. tgeorgescu (talk) 06:52, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Do you think it’s inauthentic? Or not? Please do not be wasting my time here. Jahuah (talk) 06:54, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- It think that claim is utterly unfalsifiable, so it cannot amount to science. See for details The Shapira Strips: What Are They and Are They Forgeries? on YouTube by Dr. Robert R. Cargill. tgeorgescu (talk) 06:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ok. Thanks for actually giving me an answer at least. Jahuah (talk) 07:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- What exactly are you asking admins to do there? This looks to me like a content dispute. - The Bushranger One ping only 07:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Who, me? I’m not asking anything. I just wanted to show how a seal dated by a scholar to the 8th century is indeed an 8th century BC Israelite seal of Hoshea.
- The guy up there has a problem with that and now apparently I’m on the naughty list. Jahuah (talk) 07:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- @The Bushranger: I have explained them at length why this is utterly problematic, previously. I had expected that they will behave. Misbehaving is a behavioral problem. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think I know how to behave, thank you very much. I’m not a petulant manchild. Jahuah (talk) 07:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- See User talk:Jahuah#December 2024 and Talk:Uzziah#Uzziah Seals. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Lol, I refuted you there. All you did was attack Dr. Mykytiuk and call into question his scholarship. Jahuah (talk) 07:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Besides, what does this have to do with the Hoshea seal? Jahuah (talk) 07:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't expect any of you to take my word for it, that why I had WP:CITED https://web.archive.org/web/20241209232716/https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/archaeology-today/the-problem-with-unprovenanced-objects/ Suffices to say that unprovenanced objects are ethically and juridically fishy. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- So no comment on my refutation of your petulant behavior? Jahuah (talk) 07:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Who’s “any of you” by the way? I’m one guy. Jahuah (talk) 07:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- You're (only you, not The Bushranger) promoting a claim that is unfalsifiable, unethical, and maybe even juridically problematic. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:18, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ooo, that’s a new one. Jahuah (talk) 07:20, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Nope, if you had read carefully what I told you in 2024, there is nothing new about my claim. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:41, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- i can tell you’re clearly upset with me. >:). Good. You guys represent scholarship only when it suits your ideology. Jahuah (talk) 07:42, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's not about my ideology. It is about: bona fide archaeologists are not allowed to discuss such claims in public. So no bona fide archaeologist could affirm that that object is authentic or inauthentic, because the next day they will have to flip burgers at Target. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Fine whatever, I apologize. Jahuah (talk) 07:49, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's not about my ideology. It is about: bona fide archaeologists are not allowed to discuss such claims in public. So no bona fide archaeologist could affirm that that object is authentic or inauthentic, because the next day they will have to flip burgers at Target. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- i can tell you’re clearly upset with me. >:). Good. You guys represent scholarship only when it suits your ideology. Jahuah (talk) 07:42, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Nope, if you had read carefully what I told you in 2024, there is nothing new about my claim. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:41, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ooo, that’s a new one. Jahuah (talk) 07:20, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- You're (only you, not The Bushranger) promoting a claim that is unfalsifiable, unethical, and maybe even juridically problematic. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:18, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't expect any of you to take my word for it, that why I had WP:CITED https://web.archive.org/web/20241209232716/https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/archaeology-today/the-problem-with-unprovenanced-objects/ Suffices to say that unprovenanced objects are ethically and juridically fishy. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- See User talk:Jahuah#December 2024 and Talk:Uzziah#Uzziah Seals. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think I know how to behave, thank you very much. I’m not a petulant manchild. Jahuah (talk) 07:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- @The Bushranger: I have explained them at length why this is utterly problematic, previously. I had expected that they will behave. Misbehaving is a behavioral problem. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- It think that claim is utterly unfalsifiable, so it cannot amount to science. See for details The Shapira Strips: What Are They and Are They Forgeries? on YouTube by Dr. Robert R. Cargill. tgeorgescu (talk) 06:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Do you think it’s inauthentic? Or not? Please do not be wasting my time here. Jahuah (talk) 06:54, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- According to critical rationalism, the claim that such object is authentic is unfalsifiable. Since it is taboo to discuss such object in public. So only biased hacks could affirm it is authentic or inauthentic without losing their jobs. tgeorgescu (talk) 06:52, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Demands to prove a negative are a nonsensical and puerile debating tactic. The editor must cite evidence that the item is considered authentic, or refrain from stating so in WP's voice. Simple as that. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 07:17, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Is the editor referring to me? Jahuah (talk) 07:20, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- If so, here you go. Lawrence J. Mykytiuk, Identifying Biblical Persons in Northwest Semitic Inscriptions of 1200-539 B.C.E. (Boston: Brill, 2004), 58., https://www.academia.edu/62900860/Iconography_on_Hebrew_Seals_and_Bullae_Identifying_Biblical_Persons_and_the_Apparent_Paradox_of_Egyptian_Solar_Symbols_ABSTRACT_ Jahuah (talk) 07:21, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Since bona fide archaeologists are not allowed to discuss it, you win by default? tgeorgescu (talk) 07:22, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Elmidae, were you referring to me? Jahuah (talk) 07:24, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Bona fide archaeologists will lose their jobs for merely mentioning Mykytiuk's claim. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:30, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was talking to Elmidae. Jahuah (talk) 07:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, they were talking to you. Also both of you take a chill pill for a minute, please - this disucssion is already approaching WP:TLDR levels of length from the back-and-forth above. Tgeorgescu, you don't have to respond to everything Jahuah says esepecially when it's in response to other editors. Jahuah,
i can tell you’re clearly upset with me. >:). Good.
is not an attitude conducive to cooperative editing. - The Bushranger One ping only 08:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)- Fine, fine, I apologize. I’m just angry that my contributions to Misplaced Pages get deleted. I just wanna leave some edits and then I’ll leave this site for good. I promise. Jahuah (talk) 08:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I also want to make sure my contributions are kept before I leave. Jahuah (talk) 08:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Fine, fine, I apologize. I’m just angry that my contributions to Misplaced Pages get deleted. I just wanna leave some edits and then I’ll leave this site for good. I promise. Jahuah (talk) 08:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, they were talking to you. Also both of you take a chill pill for a minute, please - this disucssion is already approaching WP:TLDR levels of length from the back-and-forth above. Tgeorgescu, you don't have to respond to everything Jahuah says esepecially when it's in response to other editors. Jahuah,
- I was talking to Elmidae. Jahuah (talk) 07:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Bona fide archaeologists will lose their jobs for merely mentioning Mykytiuk's claim. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:30, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Elmidae, were you referring to me? Jahuah (talk) 07:24, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Since bona fide archaeologists are not allowed to discuss it, you win by default? tgeorgescu (talk) 07:22, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- This editor appears to be edit warring across multiple pages to assert historical uncertainties as fact based on unconfirmed and speculative research from biblical archaeology blogs and the like. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:44, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oh look, BAR society is no longer reputable because some Misplaced Pages mod said so. Jahuah (talk) 07:49, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- By the way, who am I edit warring with? That’s news to me. Jahuah (talk) 07:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- We don't have "mods" on Misplaced Pages. But you have only been editing for a month so it shouldn't be expected that you would know much about how Misplaced Pages works. Liz 08:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hmph. I guess I’ll go then. Sorry for the trouble I caused. Jahuah (talk) 08:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Jahuah, I wasn't asking you to leave the project, just pointing out that you are a newer editor. Misplaced Pages is chockful of rules and guidelines and it's not realistic to expect new editors to be familiar with them all. Liz 09:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, no. It’s ok. It’s clear that I have caused more problems here than solved. I just hope my contributions will stay, or at least be kept until new data comes. I’ll be out of your hairs soon. Jahuah (talk) 10:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Jahuah, I wasn't asking you to leave the project, just pointing out that you are a newer editor. Misplaced Pages is chockful of rules and guidelines and it's not realistic to expect new editors to be familiar with them all. Liz 09:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hmph. I guess I’ll go then. Sorry for the trouble I caused. Jahuah (talk) 08:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- We don't have "mods" on Misplaced Pages. But you have only been editing for a month so it shouldn't be expected that you would know much about how Misplaced Pages works. Liz 08:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- By the way, who am I edit warring with? That’s news to me. Jahuah (talk) 07:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oh look, BAR society is no longer reputable because some Misplaced Pages mod said so. Jahuah (talk) 07:49, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
it's an unprovenanced object and likely a forgery it was not found in a licensed archaeological excavation it does not possess a credible chain of custody this is very much too good to be true but since people of faith want to believe it and since it's not against the law to use your free speech to make false claims like this forgers will make forgeries and antiquities dealers will put them up for sale and try to make as much money as they can but these kind of forgeries pollute legitimate biblical archaeology and it is why so many scholars myself included do not publish critical reviews of unproven objects once you give them credence their value is increased even if you put a little asterisk by them and designate them as unprovenanced and merely teach the controversy you are still giving them scholarly recognition and debate that the forger and the antiquities dealer so desperately crave publishing unprovenanced objects leads to looting and to forgeries it's that simple
— Dr. Robert R. Cargill, transcript
Quoted by tgeorgescu (talk) 08:06, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- tgeorgescu, this is becoming a detailed content dispute which means it probably should be closed as off-topic for this noticeboard. Liz 09:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- For the record, tg's hysterical talk about disgraced archeologists flipping burgers at Target is nonsense. There is vigorous controversy about unprovenanced objects, but no one's losing their job for breaking some alleged taboo. EEng 06:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
HoraceAndTheSpiders
Attention gotten and message received. - The Bushranger One ping only 18:23, 4 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- HoraceAndTheSpiders (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Could someone briefly block User:HoraceAndTheSpiders to get their attention, or come up with better way to get them to read their talk page/comply with the WP:ARBECR restrictions. Thanks. Sean.hoyland (talk) 11:40, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
Done. I've left a note on their talkpage that they will almost certainly be unblocked if they promise to keep away from ARBPIA until they are extended-confirmed. Black Kite (talk) 11:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks Sean.hoyland (talk) 11:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sean.hoyland The editor has submitted a suitable unblock request, so I have unblocked. Please let me know if they stray into ARBPIA again. Thanks, Black Kite (talk) 12:40, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks Sean.hoyland (talk) 11:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
TTTEMLPBrony and continued addition of unsourced/crufty material, zero communication
Blocked. Now CU-blocked. Drmies (talk) 15:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
TTTEMLPBrony (talk · contribs) has been active since late April 2024. They have a history of adding of unsourced and sometimes controversial material. They have been messaged and warned plenty of times, including by FlightTime, Doniago and LindsayH, but to no avail. Better yet, they haven't responded once on their own talk page.WP:COMMUNICATION is required and they do not seem to be willing or able to work with others. I've issued them a warning earlier this week, but looking at their talk page, I see they've been issued stern warnings plenty of times. And despite messages about adding sources, in late December 2024 they created List of second unit directors, which is barely referenced. soetermans. 12:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- They may be unaware of their talkpage, even though 8 months seems a long time for that. I have blocked indefinitely, with an informative message and a link to their talkpage in the log. Unfortunately that's sometimes the only way to get the attention of a non-responsive user. Bishonen | tålk 15:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC).
- They know about talk pages, Bishonen, because they have used one at least once; i checked when i first tried to communicate with them to no avail. That being said, i think this is a good use of a block, showing we are serious when we say communication is necessary ~ Lindsay 17:30, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Indefinitely blocked after only 5-hours, without the user even editing during that period? For a first offence? After only warnings of the lowest level? I'm no sure why User:Soetermans even created this request, as there'd been zero editing of the page in question since his talk-page warning 3 days earlier! Much of the edits seem to be merely content disputes. I don't see much repition after notification. And we don't even have rules about providing sources. There was no imminent risk of damage here, and I don't think the conditions laid out in WP:INDEF have been met. And WP:BLOCKDURATION most certainly hasn't been met. This is an appallingly awful block User:Bishonen. Can I that you reduce it to a week or less just to get attention. I'd suggest a day, but the editor is so infrequent, that they may not not notice. Though given they are moderating their behaviour based on what is posted in their talk page, even a block is barely justified. Nfitz (talk) 00:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I disagree. When an editor refuses to communicate, it's not uncommon for an admin to block until the editor responds. Even the block notice tells them
Please respond below this post and start communicating, and you may be unblocked.
Sometimes it's a case where inexperienced editors simply don't realize that they have a talk page or that people are leaving them messages. This block gently brings it to their attention. Schazjmd (talk) 00:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)- I see nothing in policy for an indefinite. And an indefinite block is absolutely not "gently". It's the kind of heavy-handed authoritarianism that drives the people we need away. There seemed to be edits that were a real attempt to improve Misplaced Pages. And there seemed to be changes in behaviour that were guided by the comments on the talk page. And there hadn't even been any further edits of concern since the previous warning - days ago. Sure, for Misplaced Pages warriors who frequent ANI, a block is just something you deal with; but I don't think that's how many people would see it. Nfitz (talk) 00:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Indef is "until you address the issue", not forever. Schazjmd (talk) 00:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I believe we are all aware of that. The issue is that doing so, at this stage, is completely outside of our policy, and that doing so for a minor case like this is completely outside of policy. We can't just make start doing things a different way because the admin feels like it. Our policy says that "Indefinite blocks are usually applied when there is significant disruption or threats of disruption, or major breaches of policy". The threat was neither significant (or even very recent) or a major breach of policy. I note that the user in question was only given 5 hours to respond, but after 4 hours, we'd still had no response from User:Bishonen, perhaps she should also have been blocked for not noticing the discussion (yeah, that's irony, not a proposal). Nfitz (talk) 06:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Indef is "until you address the issue", not forever. Schazjmd (talk) 00:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see nothing in policy for an indefinite. And an indefinite block is absolutely not "gently". It's the kind of heavy-handed authoritarianism that drives the people we need away. There seemed to be edits that were a real attempt to improve Misplaced Pages. And there seemed to be changes in behaviour that were guided by the comments on the talk page. And there hadn't even been any further edits of concern since the previous warning - days ago. Sure, for Misplaced Pages warriors who frequent ANI, a block is just something you deal with; but I don't think that's how many people would see it. Nfitz (talk) 00:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I disagree. When an editor refuses to communicate, it's not uncommon for an admin to block until the editor responds. Even the block notice tells them
- TTTEMLPBrony has now responded, stating that "I have not realized that accounts have talkpages", so apparently my block worked as intended. Unfortunately, they go on to say that their little brother did it, and also that they allowed the brother to use the account. Blithely they claim that "I have already dealt with him" - uh, "already"? Anyway, whether or not I believe them about the brother (I can't say I do), the account is clearly compromised, and must stay blocked. With some hesitation, I've turned the block into a softblock, so that they may create a new account, and have explained that they must absolutely not share it with anybody. I have notified the stewards in case they want to globally lock. Bishonen | tålk 03:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC).
- Just because, User:Bishonen, it worked, doesn't mean that you are allowed to just make up your own rules. (but yeah, sounds fishy ... on the other hand, it's probably a child). Please follow protocol, or hand over your keys. Thanks. Nfitz (talk) 06:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Nfitz, please be more polite on these noticeboards. The block Bishonen placed was perfectly fine and it's the kind of thing admins have been doing for years. Nothing in policy forbids it, and I believe The Bushranger's response is along the same lines. Besides, the editor's edit were, and I'm trying to stay polite myself, not good, as their talk page full of warnings indicates: no edit summaries, no responses, no communication, no knowledge of sourcing and sourcing requirements. Finally, I don't know how young that editor might be, but I do know that they are four years older than when Ponyo blocked them. Drmies (talk) 15:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just because, User:Bishonen, it worked, doesn't mean that you are allowed to just make up your own rules. (but yeah, sounds fishy ... on the other hand, it's probably a child). Please follow protocol, or hand over your keys. Thanks. Nfitz (talk) 06:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Jypian gaming extended confirmed
SOCK BLOCKED I've run out of sock puns, sorry. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 17:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Jypian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
On J.P. (rapper), the user is making pointless edits after having been here for exactly thirty days. Clearly gaming extended confirmed. 🐔 Chicdat 12:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I been making real edits since I created my account please take your time to check and I’m sorry for purposely pointless edits for extended confirmed on Day 30. I’m a real and genuine user I just wanted early access to work and edit on important stuffJypian (talk) 13:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- For what reason are you doing this? 331dot (talk) 13:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- The thing is, articles that only extended confirmed users can edit are like that for a reason. What kinds of
important stuff
were you planning on working on? 🐔 Chicdat 13:24, 4 January 2025 (UTC)- Donald Trump Hotel Accident Jypian (talk) 13:26, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Considering you've admitted you've gaming the system you need to voluntary agree to refrain from editing anything that requires EC until you've made 500 real edits. The permission will be removed if you don't follow this. I'd also suggest stay away from the Donald Trump hotel article until you've gotten at least a few thousand edits under your belt since being so desperate to edit an article is usually a sign once you do start editing you'll get into trouble. Nil Einne (talk) 14:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have revoked their extended-confirmed permission. They may re-request it from WP:PERM after making 500 legitimate edits. —Ingenuity (t • c) 14:25, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Im going to edit Donald Trump hotel accident, whatever you want it or not😡 JupianCircles (talk) 14:42, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- If you create alternative accounts to try and bypass your primary account's restrictions, you will end up being banned. GiantSnowman 14:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's unnecessary to threaten or to evade restrictions; you can propose edits via the edit request wizard. If they are nonsense, though, expect to be blocked as well. 331dot (talk) 14:49, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Im going to edit Donald Trump hotel accident, whatever you want it or not😡 JupianCircles (talk) 14:42, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have revoked their extended-confirmed permission. They may re-request it from WP:PERM after making 500 legitimate edits. —Ingenuity (t • c) 14:25, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Considering you've admitted you've gaming the system you need to voluntary agree to refrain from editing anything that requires EC until you've made 500 real edits. The permission will be removed if you don't follow this. I'd also suggest stay away from the Donald Trump hotel article until you've gotten at least a few thousand edits under your belt since being so desperate to edit an article is usually a sign once you do start editing you'll get into trouble. Nil Einne (talk) 14:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Donald Trump Hotel Accident Jypian (talk) 13:26, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Blocked. Blocked as a sock by NinjaRobotPirate. Bishonen | tålk 15:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC).
- That makes sense. 331dot (talk) 15:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for the action NinjaRobotPirate. 🐔 Chicdat 15:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- That makes sense. 331dot (talk) 15:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- As an aside, is it possible to take away the EC permission before it is achieved or otherwise prevent it being automatically gained? I said what I said above because I incorrectly thought they hadn't yet achieved EC. Given this I thought either an admin would need to watch out for them (unless there's an admin bot which can do this) or they could voluntary refrain from using their EC and this wouldn't be necessary. But I checked after and realised I was wrong about them not gaining EC and I'm wondering if I could be wrong about the removal of EC before it's automatically gained. Nil Einne (talk) 16:12, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it's possible to prevent an account from obtaining EC by granting and immediately revoking it. That apparently stops the account from getting it automatically because it has obtained EC before. QwertyForest (talk) 16:24, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Interesting, thanks. Useful to know for the future. Nil Einne (talk) 17:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it's possible to prevent an account from obtaining EC by granting and immediately revoking it. That apparently stops the account from getting it automatically because it has obtained EC before. QwertyForest (talk) 16:24, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
Footballnerd2007
This is going nowhere fast. Whether or not Footballnerd2007 is using an LLM to respond to conversations, they've promised to stay out of other editors' userspace drafts, been notified they shouldn't start RfAs for other editors without speaking to them, and said that they would be more careful with moves. (On that note, I can't warn Footballnerd2007 to not close RM discussions, but I'd highly recommend they avoid doing so until they become more acquainted with community norms.) voorts (talk/contributions) 22:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I need a second pair of eyes on Footballnerd2007 (talk · contribs) please - apparently a new editor, but they have been closing RM discussions - including one where they introduced a typo, see Dory (special) which I have fixed - and they have also been messing around moving my user space pages (see User:GiantSnowman/Mbunya Alemanji) and they have also created Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Cyberdog958. None of this is the action of a new editor and my Spidey senses are tingling. GiantSnowman 19:27, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't see an urgent or intractable issue here. Unless/until stronger evidence comes up, I'm going to assume that they're trying to help and suggest we respond accordingly. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:44, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd like to clarify a point in your message. The statement "and they have also been messing around moving my user space pages (see User:GiantSnowman/Mbunya Alemanji)" should be corrected. I have only moved one page, not multiple pages. Please adjust the wording to reflect this accurately. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 19:57, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- A response like that is not helping with my suspicions and concerns. GiantSnowman 20:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- What exactly am I being accused of? Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 20:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- You are either an extremely over enthusiastic new editor making mistakes - in which case you need to slow down a lot, and listen ASAP - or you are a sock trying to be clever. GiantSnowman 20:12, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- The former is rather accurate. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 20:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- GiantSnowman, if you have evidence, then the appropriate forum is WP:SPI. If you don't, then you're liable to get hit with a boomerang for WP:NPA/WP:ASPERSIONS, even if you end up happening to be correct. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- And what would my boomerang punishment be? GiantSnowman 21:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- How do I go about making a complaint against him for violating WP:NPA/WP:ASPERSIONS? Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- And what would my boomerang punishment be? GiantSnowman 21:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- You are either an extremely over enthusiastic new editor making mistakes - in which case you need to slow down a lot, and listen ASAP - or you are a sock trying to be clever. GiantSnowman 20:12, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- What exactly am I being accused of? Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 20:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- A response like that is not helping with my suspicions and concerns. GiantSnowman 20:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd like to clarify a point in your message. The statement "and they have also been messing around moving my user space pages (see User:GiantSnowman/Mbunya Alemanji)" should be corrected. I have only moved one page, not multiple pages. Please adjust the wording to reflect this accurately. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 19:57, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Response
Hello GiantSnowman,
Thank you for raising these concerns. I'd like to address the points you mentioned:
1. Botched Page Moves: Regarding the page moves, I made an attempt to improve the accuracy and consistency of article titles based on my understanding of the situation. I acknowledge that there was a typo introduced, which I appreciate being pointed out, and I have since corrected it. I’ll be more careful in the future to ensure that such errors do not occur.
2. Messing with User Space Draft: I apologise for any disruption caused to your user space draft. My intention was never to interfere with your content. I recognise that user space is personal, and I will be mindful to avoid making any uninvited changes moving forward.
3. Creation of an RFA for Cyberdog958: As for the RFA for Cyberdog958, I stand by my decision to create it. I believed that Cyberdog958 hads demonstrated the necessary qualities for adminship and could be a positive asset to the community. There was no ill intent behind my actions. The RFA was made based on a genuine belief that they were qualified, and I will continue to support nominations that I feel are appropriate based on the contributions and behavior I observe.
I hope this clears up any misunderstandings. I strive to make constructive contributions and act in good faith, and I appreciate your understanding.
Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 20:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- RFA - why didn't you discuss with the editor first? GiantSnowman 20:11, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I wasn't aware there was a requirement to do so. I did notify them! Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 20:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Before you made the RFA??? No. GiantSnowman 20:17, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I wasn't aware there was a requirement to do so. I did notify them! Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 20:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I wasn’t pinged about this ANI, but I found it through the RFA message on my talk page. I guess I appreciate the thought, if it was coming from a sincere place, but I would have declined the nomination if I was asked. I’ve never come across this user or interacted with them in any way until now so I’m not sure why they picked me. cyberdog958 20:46, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Footballnerd2007, given that Cyberdog958 has confirmed that they have never interacted with you, please confirm how you found them to nominate them for RFA?
- Similarly, how did you find me this afternoon, as I similarly have never heard of or interacted with you before today? GiantSnowman 21:21, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Footballnerd2007 thank you for trying to help out, and I'm sorry that GiantSnowman has chosen to escalate this in the way that he has. Page moves can be tricky, and you might want to sit back and watch the process for a while before participating in it yourself. Regarding RFA, it's a serious decision that people usually mull over for years before they finally agree to submit their names, so it's going to be more than a little jarring to have someone else do it on one's behalf. With the user space, it seems you understand the issue so there's no need to retread that. Going forward, I suggest taking things slow and asking for help whenever you think about entering a new area. I've been doing this for a few years now, and I still reach out to someone with experience in the area if I think I want to try something new! Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Footballnerd2007, the response that you made at 20:08 has formatting that I have only seen before from AI, never from a human editor. Was it made with an LLM? If so please talk to us in your own words. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, I have the feeling that a lot of this editor's comments are AI produced. GiantSnowman 21:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I refer you to my previous answer. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:31, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for that link - I see therefore that other users have raised concerns with you only yesterday about your RM/discussion closes, and yet you have continued to make poor closes today. Why is that? Why therefore should we trust you when you say you won't do it again, given you have done it again? GiantSnowman 21:36, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yesterday I didn't say I wouldn't do it again, today I have, albeit reluctantly, changed my position for the sake of keeping the peace. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:38, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why did you continue to make the same questionable edits that other editors have previously queried with you? Unless you are deliberately trying to be disruptive? GiantSnowman 21:46, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yesterday I didn't say I wouldn't do it again, today I have, albeit reluctantly, changed my position for the sake of keeping the peace. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:38, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for that link - I see therefore that other users have raised concerns with you only yesterday about your RM/discussion closes, and yet you have continued to make poor closes today. Why is that? Why therefore should we trust you when you say you won't do it again, given you have done it again? GiantSnowman 21:36, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Transparently LLM output. Folly Mox (talk) 21:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yet here they deny using Chat GPT. So either it's not LLM (and multiple users have raised these suspicions, which I share) and just very odd language, or they are a liar. Which is it? GiantSnowman 21:38, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- What unsubjctive hard evidence do you have to support that allegation? Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:39, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I pulled 11 random AI detectors from Google. Of them, seven give a 100% AI rating. One gives 50% and the 3 others give 0%. Tarlby 21:39, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- The final 3 are 100% accurate. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:40, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- And the 7 others? Tarlby 21:41, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have no explanation. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:42, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Because there is none - it's absolutely AI generated, you don't need a detector for that. While not against policy, it's heavily frowned upon, as it's not your words but the LLM's. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- And given that you have repeatedly denied use LLM, you are a liar and cannot be trusted. GiantSnowman 21:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have repeatedly denied using ChatGPT because I didn't, that's not a lie and you have no evidence to suggest to the contrary. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- But you have been using a LLM of some kind, yes? GiantSnowman 21:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- No comment. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- We'll take that as a 'yes' then - and that you therefore have not been truthful. The tiny modicum of AGF I had has now fully disappeared. GiantSnowman 22:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- No comment. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- But you have been using a LLM of some kind, yes? GiantSnowman 21:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have repeatedly denied using ChatGPT because I didn't, that's not a lie and you have no evidence to suggest to the contrary. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- So you're accusing me of lying now? As I have said before, I didn't use ChatGPT. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, I am accusing you of lying. GiantSnowman 21:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's a serious allegation, what evidence do you have that I use ChatGPT? Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)I'm pretty sure there's LLMs that aren't ChatGPT. But if you're saying "I didn't use a LLM/AI generator at all", then that is demonstratably false. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- And if you're trying to be clever by saying "I use LLM but not ChatGPT", your comments here have been disingenuous and misleading. You are digging yourself a hole. GiantSnowman 21:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I never made any comment about LLMs in general. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please answer this direct question - have you used LLM? If so, why didn't you own up to that when asked? GiantSnowman 21:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- The definition of LLM is somewhat ambiguous so I wouldn't want to mislead you by answering definitively. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 22:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- 🤦♂️ Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)So that's "yes" then, got it. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:LLMDISCLOSE applies (even if only an essay). GiantSnowman 22:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- The definition of LLM is somewhat ambiguous so I wouldn't want to mislead you by answering definitively. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 22:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- You're not helping your case right now. Even if you're getting dogpiled (especially if you're getting dogpiled) you need to speak clearly and directly. You'll gain far more goodwill by saying you're using an LLM and agreeing to stop. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thebiguglyalien, do you now understand why my red flags were flagging earlier? There is something off about this editor. GiantSnowman 22:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't disagree with your analysis. I disagree with the way you approached it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- A fair criticism. GiantSnowman 22:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm sure you've had to deal with this sort of thing far more than I have, so I get that. My philosophy is just that I'd rather give dozens of "cases" that extra chance if it means salvaging one well-meaning productive editor. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:09, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Which is what I usually try and do, but the alarm bells just really rang here, and I simply wanted a second pair of eyes on the contribs to tell me "yes it's fishy" or "no you're thinking too much". I did not envision this discussion! GiantSnowman 22:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm sure you've had to deal with this sort of thing far more than I have, so I get that. My philosophy is just that I'd rather give dozens of "cases" that extra chance if it means salvaging one well-meaning productive editor. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:09, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- A fair criticism. GiantSnowman 22:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't disagree with your analysis. I disagree with the way you approached it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Again, that's conjecture. I just choose my words very carefully. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 22:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Stop choosing your words carefully. I'm trying to give you a chance that isn't often afforded to new editors here, and you're trying to WP:Wikilawyer, which is also against the rules. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:06, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Here's the deal - either you used AI, or you
my words very carefully
in a way that is how AI distinctively chooses them. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thebiguglyalien, do you now understand why my red flags were flagging earlier? There is something off about this editor. GiantSnowman 22:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please answer this direct question - have you used LLM? If so, why didn't you own up to that when asked? GiantSnowman 21:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I never made any comment about LLMs in general. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- And if you're trying to be clever by saying "I use LLM but not ChatGPT", your comments here have been disingenuous and misleading. You are digging yourself a hole. GiantSnowman 21:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, I am accusing you of lying. GiantSnowman 21:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- And given that you have repeatedly denied use LLM, you are a liar and cannot be trusted. GiantSnowman 21:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Because there is none - it's absolutely AI generated, you don't need a detector for that. While not against policy, it's heavily frowned upon, as it's not your words but the LLM's. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have no explanation. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:42, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- And the 7 others? Tarlby 21:41, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Here's 4 more AI detectors. Two give 100%, one says 11% (literally the last two sentences), and the other gives 50%. Tarlby 22:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Which AI detectors are you using? Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 22:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- The final 3 are 100% accurate. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:40, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
possible hoaxes
- Emilioveh (talk · contribs)
- Emnoé (talk · contribs)
- Larissæ (talk · contribs)
- Miguelinor (talk · contribs)
- Nose236 (talk · contribs)
The above accounts are sockpuppets that have been blocked on the Spanish Misplaced Pages for creating articles with unverifiable references or with scarce references taken out of context. I recommend reviewing all the articles that these accounts have created here as they may be hoaxes.--Fontaine347 (talk) 04:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- As a note, you don't appear to have notified any of these editors about this section, which is something you need to do when you open a section on this noticeboard. - Purplewowies (talk) 05:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've notified all the users about this possible hoax issue already. Suggest any action from administrators if possible. Galaxybeing (talk) 05:30, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Fair enough, that's a valid notion, Fontaine347. Feel free to do so! Ravenswing 12:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Edit warring to prevent an RFC
@Axad12 has removed an RFC tag from Talk:Breyers#Request for comment on propylene glycol now twice within an hour.
Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment#Reasons and ways to end RfCs provides a list of circumstances under which you can stop an RFC started by someone else, and disagreeing with the question or wishing that it contained additional information is not in the list.
We have to be pretty strict about this, because an RFC is one of the few ways to attract the broader community's attention when there's an Misplaced Pages:Ownership of content problem or a Misplaced Pages:Walled garden that needs outside attention. The fact that an editor doesn't welcome outside attention sometimes indicates that there is a problem. I'm not saying that these things are happening in this case, but the rules have to be the rules for all RFCs, not just for the ones we agree with, because these things do happen in some cases. We can't really have opponents of an RFC question/proposal, no matter how well intentioned or how justified they think it is in this one case, unilaterally deciding that the rest of the community doesn't get to find out about the dispute.
I wouldn't bother with this here, except that it's already past my bedtime, so I need someone else to handle this. The proper way forward is to run the RFC, and for the loyal opposition to take the advice about how to respond that they'll find in the first two questions of the Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for comment/FAQ. See you tomorrow. WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- As previously explained elsewhere, I removed the tag because my understanding is that the serious COI issues invalidate the RfC.
- I am perfectly happy to take instruction on that point if I am incorrect but the removals were undertaken in good faith.
- The idea that I should be reported to ANI for this just because it is past someone's bedtime (and they don't have time for talk page discussion) seems to me rather an over-reaction. Axad12 (talk) 08:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Indeed, I am perfectly happy to volunteer to replace the tag if an administrator indicates that that is the appropriate course of action. Axad12 (talk) 08:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Axad12, please do not tamper with the RFC. I have already commented there again based on my previous assessment five weeks ago, and I have absolutely no conflict of interest in this matter. In my opinion, you are taking too aggressive a stance on this issue. I happen to be an administrator but I am also involved with the dispute as an ordinary editor. Cullen328 (talk) 08:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Axad12, I'd strongly suggest you return the tag. WhatamIdoing, a {{trout}} for WP:GRENADEing. - The Bushranger One ping only 08:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for both of your advice. I will shortly replace the template.
- The COI issue does not relate to Cullen, it relates to another user entirely. I would be grateful for input on the underlying COI issue, which seems to me to have been an exceptionally serious abuse. Axad12 (talk) 09:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- What? A company quite reasonably does not want to be falsely accused of adulterating their edible product with antifreeze, based on what a fringe source wrote, and you consider that
exceptionally serious abuse
? Cullen328 (talk) 09:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- What? A company quite reasonably does not want to be falsely accused of adulterating their edible product with antifreeze, based on what a fringe source wrote, and you consider that
- Indeed, I am perfectly happy to volunteer to replace the tag if an administrator indicates that that is the appropriate course of action. Axad12 (talk) 08:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, I'm referring to the series of events outlined here where a paid COI editor has a COI edit request turned down and then starts cultivating a co-operative project member to implement non-contentious COI edit requests before reintroducing the contentious COI edit request and immediately tipping off their repeatedly canvassed project member to implement that contentious request.
- I feel that that is an exceptionally serious abuse - clearly it is an attempt to distort the COI editing process by attempting to make sure that a previously co-operative project member deals with a resubmitted request rather than waiting for a random volunteer working out of the relevant queue (one of whom had previously declined the request).
- As I said above, I am quite happy to take instruction on this point - but personally I feel that what happened there was highly inappropriate. Axad12 (talk) 09:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- In other words, you want highly misleading content to remain in the article, just to make a point? Cullen328 (talk) 09:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Cullen, my post directly above is clearly about a point of process rather than a point of content.
- Even if the original COI edit request was incorrectly declined that would not justify the paid COI editor attempting to game the system to get the request through at the second time of asking. Axad12 (talk) 09:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- "Asking a second time" is not WP:Gaming the system. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Agreed, but for a COI user to attempt to influence which user will deal with the second request does constitute gaming the system. Axad12 (talk) 22:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, it doesn't. Read the guideline instead of guessing about its contents from the WP:UPPERCASE. See, e.g., An editor gaming the system is seeking to use policy in bad faith, by finding within its wording some apparent justification for disruptive actions and stances that policy is clearly not at all intended to support. Asking an individual to help has nothing to do with finding wording in a policy to justifying disruptive actions or stances that are not intended in that policy.
- I also direct your attention to the item that says Gaming the system may include...Filibustering the consensus-building process. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was using the phrase 'gaming the system' in it's natural application (not specifically referring to WP:GAMINGTHESYSTEM, which I didn't know existed until you linked to it above). Clearly the COI user was attempting to distort the COI edit request process in some way - whether one refers to what they were doing as 'gaming the system' or some other similar phrase is neither here nor there. Axad12 (talk) 23:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Agreed, but for a COI user to attempt to influence which user will deal with the second request does constitute gaming the system. Axad12 (talk) 22:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- "Asking a second time" is not WP:Gaming the system. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also worth noting that ever since the original COI edit request back in August the clear talk page consensus has been that the material should remain within the article and is not
highly misleading
. - I've been part of that consensus position since approx October/November. Since that time the user who opened the RfC has repeatedly been opening new threads, continually trying to re-address a subject where they are repeatedly in the minority and presumably hoping that those who previously opposed them do not turn up to oppose them again. Axad12 (talk) 10:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- In other words, you want highly misleading content to remain in the article, just to make a point? Cullen328 (talk) 09:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe we should hold an RFC on whether the RFC tag should be there? Phil Bridger (talk) 09:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Right, I've had breakfast now so am in a position to make a more serious reply. This is a content issue (on which I hold, as yet, no opinion). On this page we often tell editors that the way to settle a content issue that hasn't been settled by more informal methods is by holding an RFC. Axad12, you should express your opinion as part of the RFC, not oppose holding it. By your behaviour you are turning people against you who might have supported you. Phil Bridger (talk) 10:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've already said that I'd be happy to replace the tag if instructed to do so, and upon being instructed to do so I immediately replaced it. As far as I can see that issue is now resolved.
- I've asked for comment on the underlying COI issue, which is not a content issue. Axad12 (talk) 11:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- RFCs can handle COI issues. In fact, when WP:COIN can't resolve a dispute, they sometimes host an RFC to settle it. The nice thing about an RFC in such situations is that if it closes with an outcome like "The consensus is stick it to these fully policy-compliant, completely disclosed paid editors by making sure that this article implies the company's product was adulterated with a poisonous industrial chemical, just because we found one fad diet book that used this language, because it's really unreasonable of them to not want sensationalist and derogatory information in our article about their product" then you can generally be sure that the result will stick for at least 6 months and usually longer.
- But you've got to get that consensus first, and I'm not sure you will. For one thing, it's been my not-inconsiderable experience that when someone objects to holding an RFC because the question is biased, that's a fairly reliable sign that they expect the RFC result to not match their preference. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- My concern (rightly or wrongly) was simply that there was a COI element to the request which had not been disclosed. I swiftly requested clarification on that point and upon receiving that clarification I immediately reverted myself.
- It isn't really relevant here but actually I didn't expect the RfC to develop contrary to my preference. That was because the previous 4 months had indicated a consistent consensus opposing what the instigator of the RfC was proposing. In fact, to be perfectly honest, I don't actually have a particularly strong preference one way or the other on the issue at stake - I've simply consistently observed during November and December that the consensus was against Zefr, which seemed to me to be a simple matter of fact based on the various talk page threads from August to December. Axad12 (talk) 23:38, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- On matters concerning the Breyers article, Axad12 has been an uncollaborative, disruptive, and hostile editor tag-teamed with Graywalls, who is the main proponent over months of using the slur, "antifreeze", to describe a minor GRAS ingredient that is the subject of the current RfC. Both users have ignored requests on the talk page to collaborate for a factual, well-sourced article. Both users refused collaboration on the Breyers article content at DRN.
Having never contributed a sentence or source to the Breyers article, Axad12 has blatantly reverted simple, sourced edits claiming a false consensus which has no good source to support the propylene glycol/"antifreeze" claim and no evidence of consensus input by other editors over the last many weeks. An evolving consensus on the RfC is to exclude mention of propylene glycol as undue.
Scientific and legal literature concerning propylene glycol (article link) placed on the talk page have been ignored by both users, without attempts to discuss or apply what any objective editor reading the sources would agree are authoritative.
Proposal: Because of Axad12's hostile attempt to revert a legitimate RfC, tag-team behavior with Graywalls on the Breyers article edits, canvassing each other on its talk page, and here, as another example, Axad12 and Graywalls should be A-banned from the Breyers article and its talk page.
- Support. Zefr (talk) 21:43, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- You need to notify Graywalls of this discussion. I have done so for you. In the future, remember to do so yourself. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose: I have reverted Zefr on 3 occasions on the Breyers article over the last few months. That was because the edits they had made were, at that time, contrary to talk page consensus. The fact that I had not contributed to the article is neither here nor there in that regard.
- I have not
ignored requests on the talk page to collaborate
, I have simply objected to Zefr's repeated attempts over a 3 month period to re-open a discussion where the consensus has always been against them. - Six different users have previously objected to the changes Zefr has been trying to make and that was clearly a majority of those who commented between August and December 2024.
- I accept that the current RfC is going Zefr's way, however that fact should not be used to reinterpret events over the last 4 months where Zefr has historically been in a small minority insufficient to claim a consensus in favour of the changes they wished to make.
- Also, the idea that I made a
hostile attempt to revert a legitimate RfC
is untrue. As I have pointed out above, my actions were in good faith and it can be seen that I immediately volunteered to revert my removal of the template if I received instruction from an admin to that effect. - I cannot see that I was ever canvassed to appear at the Breyers talk page, I arrived there entirely independently back in November having been aware of the ongoing situation re: the various COI edit requests because the COI edit request queue is the volunteer queue that I spend most of my time here working from. I've probably read pretty much every COI edit request that has been made on Misplaced Pages over the last 6 to 12 months and there are a small number of talk pages that I look at from time to time.
- Graywalls and I work on similar cases and sometimes we find ourselves working alongside each other, especially if material has been discussed at WP:COIN, but occasionally ending up in the same place and on the same side of an argument does not entail tagteaming. Axad12 (talk) 22:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Comment I was the one who suggested RfC in the first place. here, because I felt it was not a productive disagreement anymore. Leading up to the RfC, there was rough talk page consensus to include a mention pf propylene glycol, but if consensus in RfC determines that it should be left out, I have no intention of fighting it. Someone raised a concern there was only one source, so I added another source. Other than this, I've not really touched contentious parts of this article recently. I'm not sure why Axad12 removed the RfC and I can't speak for their actions, but the accusation of Tagteam is unwarranted. I've taken deferent steps to not continue to engage in back and forth edit warring and I'd like to believe that I'm approaching this the correct way. I do want to bring up concerns about Zefr's civility though. Please see User_talk:DMacks#Breyers_disruptive_editing for some concerns I raised. I also find leaving snarky comment about being a PhD student who disagreed on contents troubling Special:Diff/1261441062. @Aoidh: also felt Zefr was "weaponing" claims of edit warring to restore their "preferred version" earlier on in the dispute. Please see Special:Diff/1257252695 Graywalls (talk) 02:34, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Graywalls, I think you were correct to recommend an RFC. Hopefully the RFC will reach a consensus. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd just like to echo that sentiment. I'm all in favour of consensus.
- My position on this article hasn't been motivated by a partisan view on Propylene Glycol but has simply been in relation to serving the consensus position as it stood at the time. That is the approach I hope I adopt on all Misplaced Pages articles. If the consensus alters on this article (as seems likely) then I'll adopt the same approach in relation to serving the new consensus.
- My primary area of interest on this website is COI issues. I'm simply not interested in content disputes or in pushing any kind of POV on Misplaced Pages. I'm not the sort of user who flagrantly disregards a newly emerging consensus by editing contrary to the outcome of an RfC.
- I'd welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that going forwards (i.e. without an article ban). Axad12 (talk) 06:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- The mention by Graywalls for an RfC on 27 Dec had no influence on the one existing. As an uncomplicated process, an editor truly sincere in having community input would have posed a simple objective question. Graywalls, why didn't you take 5 minutes and create the RfC question you wanted? What would have been your RfC question?
- Specifically for propylene glycol (you are still defending its use in the article by adding another garbage source yesterday - see comments about this book in the RfC):
what do you believe propylene glycol does in a frozen dessert and what would you prefer the article to say about propylene glycol? I have asked for this clarification on the talk page many times and in the DRN, but you ignored the opportunity to collaborate and clarify.
- Have you read the sources in this talk page topic?
- Your reverts in article history and combative talk page behavior over months revealed a persistent intent to disparage the Breyers article, focus on the "antifreeze" slur (mainly promoting this source), and restore a skeletal version having no sources more recent than 2018 here, after tag-teaming with Axad12 to do your bidding on 17 Nov. That version also has misinformation under the section 'Ice cream', falsely stating that Breyers changed their ice cream ingredients by using other additives, which in fact, were used to evolve a new category of frozen desserts not intended to be ice cream. I believe you know this, but you and Axad12 persisted to favor misinformation for the article.
- The RfC I provided came from steps in the lead of WP:RFC: 1) generally poor talk page progress, where one editor seeking facts verified by current sources was opposed by Graywalls, Adax12, and NutmegCoffeeTea, all defending a version including "antifreeze"; 2) an RSN post here where Graywalls argued that a web link by the Seattle PI made the Motley Fool article an RS; 3) initiate DRN for which Graywalls, Axad12, and NutmegCoffeeTea abstained from collaboration to improve the article; 4) providing a science- and law-based talk page topic on 19 Dec, which appears to be willfully ignored by Axad12 and Graywalls, who responded only with hostility and defiance against the facts; 5) seeking third opinions from admins, first by BD2412 (talk page on 29-30 Nov) and by DMacks on 27 Dec, resulting in verbose trolling by these two users. Axad12's response on 27 Dec was to revert constructive edits and tag-team with Graywalls.
- Axad12 and Graywalls should be ABANNED from the Breyers article for exhibiting 1) hostility on the talk page to good faith proposals for making the article better, and 2) persistence to perpetuate misinformation on propylene glycol. Simply, what history shows that either editor has tried to improve the Breyers article? Both users meet most of the definitions of WP:NOTHERE for the article, its talk page, and the RfC. Zefr (talk) 18:17, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Zefr, I've already indicated on several occasions that I welcome and support the developing new consensus. Graywalls has made a similar comment below. That being the case, I don't really see what purpose an article ban would be intended to serve.
- Admittedly there has been some quite heated disagreement over recent months, but it seems that we all now have the robust talkpage consensus that we were hoping for in one way or another and that all three of us are happy to move forward in support of that consensus.
- You were clearly in the minority for quite a long time and I can appreciate that you found that experience frustrating. However, to continue to make allegations above of bad faith, trolling, tagteaming, etc. about those who constituted the valid majority for several months is just an attempt to perpetuate strife on an issue which is now, as far as I can see, satisfactorily resolved. Axad12 (talk) 19:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Graywalls, I think you were correct to recommend an RFC. Hopefully the RFC will reach a consensus. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Filed under: sometimes you hurt articles by treating COI editors as the enemy. The problem here is two users who should really know better edit-warring over the course of months to reinstate TikTok diet influencer silliness into a Misplaced Pages article, repeatedly reinstating WP:PROFRINGE content (implicitly, if not explicitly). We currently treat a little "avoid antifreeze" bubble in a diet book (which includes Breyers in a list of brands) and a book published by one of RFK Jr's antivax publishers as WP:DUE for including the insinuation that an FDA-approved and much-conspiratorialized additive is harmful. They've been repeatedly removed, but two editors keep putting them back, whether because of a misunderstanding of WP:MEDRS/WP:FRINGE or in pursuit of COI purification. — Rhododendrites \\ 13:24, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I take your point but I think you're misjudging the situation somewhat. Prior to the opening of the current RfC it was approximately 6 or 7 users in favour of inclusion vs 3 or 4 favouring exclusion. I only reverted the attempts at exclusion because those attempts were contrary to the talk page consensus.
- I'm perfectly open to the suggestion that that consensus position was wrong but the simple fact of the matter was that there was at that time no consensus in favour of exclusion.
- It has only been in the last couple of days that the requesting editor has been able to demonstrate a consensus in favour of exclusion. And that's great, I have no problem with that at all. In fact I welcome it.
- My understanding is that editors wishing to make changes to article text should not do so if there is a consensus against what they are trying to do, and that under such circumstances an edit can be (indeed should be) reverted. If I'm mistaken on that score then I'm perfectly happy to take instruction. However, I really want to stress that my actions were based primarily upon that reasoning and were made in good faith. Axad12 (talk) 14:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Axad12, you should not revert something because other editors want it to be reverted. You should only make content changes that you personally support. This is necessary for BRD to work. See WP:BRDREVERT for an explanation of why. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:25, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rhododendrites:, the antifreeze matter is WP:DEADHORSE since I believe everyone's pretty much agreed it doesn't need to be in there. Zefr has taken issues with me, Axad12, NutMegCoffee and possibly some others. They've tried to get the article "set in place" to their preferred version, but that was declined admin Daniel Case who determined it to be content dispute Special:Diff/1260192461. Zefr inferring alleging I was
"uncooperative"not collaborating/cooperating in the way that he was hoping in DR, but I don't believe that to be so. There was nothing intentional on my part to not cooperate. I'll see if @Robert McClenon: would like to share their observation on that since they closed the dispute. - https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Breyers/Archive_2#c-Rusalkii-20240814014600-Inkian_Jason-20240801145900 here's another uninvolved editoring erring on the side of inclusion. A one sentence mention of propylene glycol isn't something that is out of line and as others have mentioned, it falls under contents dispute and thus the choice to leave in/out rests on consensus. Reading through the current plus the archived discussions, up until the RfC, the general consensus is in support of having PG mention and Zefr's preferred version shouldn't trump consensus. As I mentioned, if consensus changes with the RfC, I'm not opposed to going with that. Graywalls (talk) 17:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC) (adjusted Graywalls (talk) 13:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC))
- For the record, I never stated the word "uncooperative" at DRN or the Breyers talk page, but rather "non-collaborative", as discussed in the thread with Robert McClenon below.
- "Set in place to their preferred version" and "Zefr's preferred version shouldn't trump consensus" should be translated to using "facts verified by reliable sources", which is the simple goal for the Breyers article that Graywalls has obstructed over months.
- It's incredible that Graywalls says even today above, knowing the comments on the RfC and months of being presented with facts and sources about why propylene glycol is safely used in thousands of manufactured foods: "A one sentence mention of propylene glycol isn't something that is out of line and as others have mentioned, it falls under contents dispute and thus the choice to leave in/out rests on consensus."
- Here's your chance to tell everyone:
- Why do you feel propylene glycol was used in Breyers frozen desserts (in 2013, not since)? What concern do you have about it, and what government or scientific source says it's unsafe in the amounts regulated by federal laws? Give a sentence here that you think meets consensus and uses a reliable source. Zefr (talk) 01:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You're right, you did not use that specific word. I've corrected my response due to wording. Graywalls (talk) 13:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
A Non-Mediator's Statement
I am not entirely sure why User:Graywalls has pinged me about this dispute, saying that I "closed this dispute". The accuracy of the statement that I "closed this dispute" depends on what is meant by "this dispute".
I closed the DRN thread, Misplaced Pages:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_252#Breyers, on 12 December. I obviously didn't resolve a dispute that has been continuing for another three weeks, and the claim that I closed the dispute looks to me like an attempt to confuse the jury. User:Zefr had opened the DRN thread on 3 December, complaining about the insertion of the word antifreeze and of the mention of propylene glycol. I was not entirely sure beyond the mention of antifreeze what the issues were. There were questions about what the procedure was for handling a one-against-many dispute; I think that Zefr was said to be the one. There was a long question that may have been about whether DRN is voluntary; DRN is voluntary. Then Zefr said that the case could be withdrawn because no one else was commenting. The disputants other than Zefr never did say exactly what the article content issues were, perhaps because they didn't want to discuss article content, and were not required to discuss article content. If anyone is implying that I resolved or settled anything, I have no idea what it was.
I see that the dispute either was continuing in other forums for three weeks, or has reopened. I see that User:Axad12 edit-warred to prevent an RFC from running, making vague but noisy statements about conflict of interest. I don't know who is said to be working for Unilever or for anyone else. It is clear that this dispute is longer on antagonism than on clarity. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Robert McClenon:, I pinged you, because I felt you'd be a good commentator to evaluate whether you also felt I was "not cooperative" in the process as Zefr says. I tried to participate, but it got closed shortly after I posted a comment in it. Graywalls (talk) 22:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Was that purposely mis-stated to be provocative and mislead the discussion here?
- I said you were non-collaborative, which describes your behavior throughout your editing history on the Breyers article, its talk page, and the DRN. You refused collaboration at DRN, which is the whole point of the process. DRN FAQ: "refusing participation can be perceived as a refusal to collaborate, and is not conducive to consensus-building."
- You were notified about the DRN on your talk page on 3 Dec, and you posted a general notice about it on the Breyers talk page on 6 Dec, so you were aware of the process, but ignored it. Meanwhile, your editing history over 6-12 Dec shows dozens of edits, including many on the Breyers talk page.
- You made no attempt to collaborate at DRN, posting only one off-topic comment on 12 Dec.
- I requested closure of the DRN on 12 Dec due to non-participation by you and the others. On 13 Dec, I notified the Breyers talk page of the DRN closure. cc: Robert McClenon. Zefr (talk) 00:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
A Possibly Requested Detail
Okay. If the question is specifically whether User:Graywalls was uncooperative at DRN, then I can state that they were not uncooperative and did not obstruct or disrupt DRN. Graywalls took very little part in the DRN proceeding before I closed it. They were not required to take part, although they say that they would have made a statement if the case had stayed open a little longer. The antagonism that I saw was between User:Zefr and User:Axad12, and I collapsed an exchange between them. I did not read what I am told were long previous discussions, because I expect the disputants at DRN to begin by telling me concisely what each of them wants to change in the article (or what they want to leave the same that another editor wants to change). Graywalls was not uncooperative at DRN. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay. User:Zefr is making a slightly different statement, that User:Graywalls did not collaborate at DRN. That is correct. And I noted above that their mention that I had closed the dispute depended on what was meant by the "dispute". and looked like an attempt to confuse the jury. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Robert McClenon Zefr did not use the word uncooperative although did say uncollaborative and I used the two interchangeably in my ping. I did participate in it Special:Diff/1262763079. I haven't participated in DRN until that point, so I wasn't really sure how it worked. Graywalls (talk) 13:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
The actual content that led to this dispute
Two month ago, Breyers included this shockingly bad content: As of 2014, some flavors of Breyer's ice cream contains propylene glycol as an additive. Propylene glycol is a chemical commonly used in a car antifreeze and it is clear fluid made by "treating propylene with chlorinated water to form the chlorohydrin, which is then converted to the glycol, an alcohol, by treating it with a sodium carbonate solution." Propylene glycol is formulated into Breyer's fat-free and Carb Smart ice cream to make it easier to scoop.
The notion that an article about an ice cream company should include a detailed description of how a Generally recognized as safe food additive is manufactured is bizarre enough, as is the cherrypicked and glaringly misleading assertion about "antifreeze", but the reference used to support the Breyers claim was a book called Eat It to Beat It!: Banish Belly Fat-and Take Back Your Health-While Eating the Brand-Name Foods You Love! written by a quack/crank diet profiteer named David Zinczenko. I invite any editor to take a search engine look at Zinczenko's body of work, and come away with the conclusion that his writings are anything other than fringe and unreliable. Despite the glaringly obviously non-neutral and tendentious problems with this shockingly bad content, editors including most prominently Graywalls and Axad12 dug in their heels, fighting a reargard action for nearly two months, determined to make this mundane routine ice cream company look as bad as possible. Their self-justification seems to be that big bad corporations have no right whatsover to try to remove atrociously bad content about their products from Misplaced Pages, and that any editor who tries to assist the evil corporation is also evil by association. I am not an advocate for corporations per se, but I am an advocate for corporations being treated neutrally like all other topics, rather with disdain and contempt, which was the case here, as I see it. I do not know what the best outcome is here, but I certainly encourage these two editors to refrain from any other unjustified and poorly referenced anti-corporate diatribes that go on for months on end. Cullen328 (talk) 07:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- A striking and shocking aspect of this sordid situation is that two editors, Graywalls and Axad12 were able to concoct a false "consensus" supporting various versions of this garbage content. And then when another editor tried to start a RFC about the appallingly bad content, Axad12 tried over and over and over again to stop the RFC and defend the atrocious content rather than correcting it, aided and abetted by Graywalls. When the RFC actually went live, it soon became clear that many editors agreed that the content these two editors advocated for was utterly inappropriate. Cullen328 (talk) 08:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Cullen,
- As per my comments above, my motivation was simply in reflecting the consensus on the talk page at the time. I did not
concoct
that consensus, at least 5 users other than me were against excluding the material. - I have never had any particularly strong opinion one way or the other on the content issue and I try as best as I can not to get involved in content disputes. I have not
dug in heels
or attempted to promote any kind of fringe opinion and nor have I engaged inanti-corporate diatribes that go on for months on end
. - Similarly I do not hold the view that
any editor who tries to assist the evil corporation is also evil by association
, or any opinion even vaguely resembling that view. On the contrary, I have often implemented COI edit requests on behalf of corporations or have pointed out to corporate employees how such requests would need to be amended to conform with sourcing or other requirements. Repeatedly engaging in that activity would presumably make me veryevil
indeed, in my own eyes, if I held the view that you attribute to me. - I reverted the Breyer edits in good faith because there was no consensus in favour of them. If I was incorrect on a point of policy in that regard then fair enough, however please do not attempt to attribute to me sentiments which I do not harbour.
- Also, I did not attempt to stop the RfC
over and over and over again
. I removed the tag twice, then requested guidance from administrators and immediately replaced the tag when requested to do so. The tag was removed, in all, for a matter of minutes and had no meaningful impact on the progress of the RfC. I have accepted elsewhere that I now appreciate that the basis on which I removed the tag was inappropriate. I have also stated thatFrom my standpoint wasn't a process that I was familiar with - but I can see from the many excellent contributions here that this is the best way of resolving content disputes
. I have also stated that I welcome and support the new consensus. Axad12 (talk) 08:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- Try as you will to justify your participation in this debacle , Axad12, but any uninvolved editor can review the edit histories and see that you fought very hard, over and over again for months, to keep garbage content in the encyclopedia just to stick it to a corporation that you obviously dislike because they tried to correct egregious errors about their products. Cullen328 (talk) 08:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Can you provide a diff there to indicate that I
obviously dislike
Breyers or (their parent company) Unilever, or indeed that I consider either to beevil
? - To the best of my recollection, I've only ever made 3 mainspace edits to the Breyers article - each time on the stated basis in the edit summary that the edit I was reverting was contrary to consensus.
- I've re-read the extensive talk page discussions in recent days and I can only see that I ever commented on the COI angle and the nature of the consensus. Those comments were based on my understanding of policy at the time. I do not see
anti-corporate diatribes
or evidence that Iobviously dislike
Breyers or Unilever. - Indeed, I do not hold any particularly strong views on Breyers, Unilever or any other corporations. Axad12 (talk) 09:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- As I said, Axad12, all any uninvolved editor needs to do is review your 37 edits to Talk: Breyers to see how determined you have been over the last two months to maintain various versions of this biased non-neutral content, and how enthusiastic you have been in denouncing the various editors who have been calling for neutrality. Your consistent theme has been that a corporation does not deserve neutrality, because a bogus consensus has been conjured up. Cullen328 (talk) 09:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- My activity on that talk page has solely been in relation to pointing out what I felt (rightly or wrongly) was a valid COI concern and observing that from Aug to Dec there has never been a consensus in favour of exclusion.
- Anything beyond that is simply you attributing motives that do not exist.
- I have never stated or implied that
a corporation does not deserve neutrality
and nor do I hold such a view. - I happily admit that I'm quite animated and enthusiastic about COI issues and reverting edits which appear to be contrary to consensus. With the benefit of hindsight probably I should have let go of those issues at an earlier stage and vacated the field for those who actually had an appetite to argue on content grounds.
- I'd also point out that for a significant part of the last 2 months I had actually unsubscribed from the relevant talkpage threads and only ended up getting involved again due to being summoned to the Dispute Resolution thread. If I had been
determined over the last two months to maintain various versions of biased non-neutral content
then hopefully it stands to reason that I would not have unsubscribed in that way - thus resulting in a situation where I was actually completely unaware of much of the talkpage and mainspace activity over the period that you refer to. Axad12 (talk) 10:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- I find the defense of your actions very weak. You've said several times that your
motivation was simply in reflecting the consensus on the talk page at the time
. You are also obligated to actually look at the disputed content and the sources supporting it. Why didn't you do that? Why were you unable to see what multiple editors in the RfC are commenting about? You shouldn't just blindly revert content like that, without taking a look for yourself to see if the complaint about the disputed content has any merit, like it being reliably sourced and due for inclusion. Isaidnoway (talk) 10:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- That's a very fair question.
- The answer is that I was inclined to believe the opinions of editors much more experienced than myself who were against exclusion, particularly the editor who turned down the original COI edit request (whose work on COI edit requests I have the greatest of respect for).
- User Whatamidoing has already pointed out above that my error lay in accepting those users' opinions. I agree with Whatamidoing's observation there.
- I can only say that what I did was done in good faith based on my understanding of policy at the time. I now know where I erred (in several different ways) and I am glad to have received instruction in that regard.
- However, I really cannot accept the repeated suggestion that I vindictively masterminded a long anti-corporate campaign to keep bad material in an article. That suggestion is fundamentally not true. Axad12 (talk) 10:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Policy at the time, and the policy now, as it always has been, when you make an edit, you are responsible for that edit. So by reverting the content back into the article, you were then responsible for that edit, and also partly to blame for this garbage content being kept in the article when it clearly shouldn't have been. Isaidnoway (talk) 11:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, I entirely accept that.
- For clarity, when I said
my understanding of policy at the time
I meant my understanding of policy at the time - I wasn't trying to suggest that the policy has changed since I made those edits. - What I am saying is that those edits were not made with malice, they were made because I accepted the opinions of other users more experienced than myself, opinions which I now know that I ought to have questioned. Axad12 (talk) 11:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You demonstrated poor judgement. Will you stay away from that article? — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 11:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- As I said earlier in this thread, I am 100% supportive of the new consensus in favour of excluding the previously disputed material.
- Virtually all of my time on Misplaced Pages is spent at COIN and dealing with COI edit requests. I'm not the sort of user who spends their time edit warring over POV fringe material and generally being disruptive.
- So, the last thing I would ever do is attempt to reinstall material where a very robust consensus at RfC has indicated that it should be excluded.
- I would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that I can be trusted in that regard. Axad12 (talk) 12:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Judgement isn't about following consensus, it’s about making considered decisions. — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 14:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You demonstrated poor judgement. Will you stay away from that article? — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 11:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Policy at the time, and the policy now, as it always has been, when you make an edit, you are responsible for that edit. So by reverting the content back into the article, you were then responsible for that edit, and also partly to blame for this garbage content being kept in the article when it clearly shouldn't have been. Isaidnoway (talk) 11:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I find the defense of your actions very weak. You've said several times that your
- As I said, Axad12, all any uninvolved editor needs to do is review your 37 edits to Talk: Breyers to see how determined you have been over the last two months to maintain various versions of this biased non-neutral content, and how enthusiastic you have been in denouncing the various editors who have been calling for neutrality. Your consistent theme has been that a corporation does not deserve neutrality, because a bogus consensus has been conjured up. Cullen328 (talk) 09:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Can you provide a diff there to indicate that I
- Try as you will to justify your participation in this debacle , Axad12, but any uninvolved editor can review the edit histories and see that you fought very hard, over and over again for months, to keep garbage content in the encyclopedia just to stick it to a corporation that you obviously dislike because they tried to correct egregious errors about their products. Cullen328 (talk) 08:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've been expecting something to happen around User:Axad12, whom I ran into several months ago during a dispute at COIN. What I noticed back in October was that Axad12 seemed to be clerking the noticeboard, making prosecutorial noises, and sometimes unsupported accusations (ex:
...the existence of COI seems quite clear...
1,...in relation to your undeclared conflict of interest...
2,As I said, the fact that there was a significant undeclared conflict of interest in relation to editing on Paralympic Australia-related articles was demonstrated some years ago.
3) towards what they thought of as COI editors (this was about whether User:Hawkeye7 had failed to adequately announce their conflict with Paralympic Australia, where they've been openly helping as a volunteer on our community's behalf for many years, and after they had just made an almost invisible contribution on the Signpost). I often find such clerking of noticeboards by relatively unseasoned users to be troublesome; Axad12 has 490 edits at COIN, about 12% of their total 3801 edits (but about a third of the roughly 1500 edits total on COIN since September). If you use a hammer all day, you might begin to think that all objects are potentially nails. BusterD (talk) 12:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- Rereading the discussion this morning 90 days later, it reads worse than I made it sound above. An uninvolved admin tried to close the thread and chastised Axad12 in that close. The OP asked the thread closure be reversed, so the close comments were moved down to the end of the thread. BusterD (talk) 14:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it would be a good idea for Axad12 to take a break from WP:COIN and associated matters and concentrate on other areas of Misplaced Pages for a few months. I was going to use a cliché here, but I see BusterD's already used it in the last sentence of the post before last, so won't. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Only so many ways to screw in a lightbulb. BusterD (talk) 15:06, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- In fairness, the overwhelming majority of my posts at COIN over the last year or so have been simple helpful contributions. The two matters discussed above were atypical and in both cases I've taken on board the advice I was given.
- If (per the figures above) I've been making about a third of all the contributions at COIN over that period then my behaviour would have been reported here long ago if I was either disruptive or incompetent.
- That said, I won't deny that I've been seriously considering retiring from Misplaced Pages over the last two months. The only reason I've not done so is because other users have specifically encouraged me to carry on because they value my work at COIN and on COI issues generally.
- All I can say is that what I have done, I have done in good faith and when I have occasionally erred I have learned lessons. I have acknowledged above that I've made mistakes and I'm grateful to those who have given me advice. Axad12 (talk) 15:34, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You've been reported here now. Over stuff that's current, and applicable. In that matter, you seemed to believe your expertise in COI matters allows you to decide what constitutes a valid RFC. That seems like a problem to me. I'm providing evidence on related behavioral matters. Having made one third of all recent edits on a noticeboard is not the high achievement you might think it is. Stay or retire, but learn to better assume good faith here, even when dealing with COI contributors. Most accounts are fine. You've been working in a narrow area where you deal with many bad faith users. I can understand why that might wear on any editor. The proof will be if you can incorporate these valid complaints into your future action. BusterD (talk) 16:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Only so many ways to screw in a lightbulb. BusterD (talk) 15:06, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it would be a good idea for Axad12 to take a break from WP:COIN and associated matters and concentrate on other areas of Misplaced Pages for a few months. I was going to use a cliché here, but I see BusterD's already used it in the last sentence of the post before last, so won't. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Rereading the discussion this morning 90 days later, it reads worse than I made it sound above. An uninvolved admin tried to close the thread and chastised Axad12 in that close. The OP asked the thread closure be reversed, so the close comments were moved down to the end of the thread. BusterD (talk) 14:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
Complaint against User:GiantSnowman
 | This complaint has been withdrawn.See #Response from Footballnerd2007 below. |
Good Morning,
I am writing to formally lodge a complaint against User:GiantSnowman for repeated violations of Misplaced Pages's policies on personal attacks (WP:NPA) and casting aspersions (WP:ASPERSIONS) during a recent discussion.
Throughout the interaction, GiantSnowman has engaged in behavior that appears to contravene Misplaced Pages's behavioral guidelines, including but not limited to:
Casting aspersions without evidence:
- GiantSnowman repeatedly accused me of engaging in disruptive behavior, suggesting ulterior motives without providing any verifiable evidence.
- For instance, accusations of using ChatGPT to generate responses without concrete proof.
- Statements like “You are a liar and cannot be trusted” and other similar assertions lack civility and violate the principle of Assume Good Faith.
Aggressive tone and unwarranted accusations:
- The user's tone throughout the discussion has been hostile, escalating to direct personal attacks:
- Referring to me as a “liar” multiple times.
- Suggesting that I have been “deliberately disruptive” without presenting any factual basis.
Violation of WP:CIVIL and WP:ENCOURAGE:
- Misplaced Pages encourages editors to respond constructively to newcomers' efforts. However, GiantSnowman’s behavior has been dismissive and accusatory, discouraging participation and creating a hostile editing environment.
As an administrator, GiantSnowman is expected to set an example by adhering to Misplaced Pages's behavioral policies and fostering a collaborative environment. However, their actions in this instance fall far short of the standards expected of administrators, which further exacerbates the seriousness of this issue.
I understand that discussions can sometimes be contentious, but I believe there is no justification for violating WP:NPA or WP:ASPERSIONS. I respectfully request that administrators review the linked discussion and take appropriate action to address this behavior.
If any additional information or clarification is needed, I am happy to provide it. My intent is to ensure a respectful and collaborative editing environment for all Misplaced Pages contributors.
Thank you for your time and consideration.
Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 12:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- The discussion I raised was at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Footballnerd2007, now closed. I raised concerns about this editor, who has (in brief) - undertake botched and inappropriate RM closures; re-factored other editor's talk page posts; randomly nominated another user with whom they have never interacted before for RFA; and messing with my user space draft. None of that was the conduct of a new editor here to learn the ropes, and I wanted a second pair of eyes.
- In the course of that discussion, it became highly suspect to multiple users that this user has been editing with LLM. They denied using Chat GPT and, when questioned further, refused to answer. That is why I said this user is a liar and cannot be trusted, and I stand by that assertion. GiantSnowman 12:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Pinging other editors who were involved in that ANI discussion or have posted concerns/advice on this user's talk page - @Liz, Voorts, Folly Mox, Tiggerjay, Extraordinary Writ, Tarlby, The Bushranger, Thebiguglyalien, and Cyberdog958: - think that is everyone, apologies if not. GiantSnowman 12:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for your speedy response. Now let other admins add their point of view. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 12:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Given the closed section above - which was closed for a very good reason - I'd suggest that coming back to this page to complain and using an LLM to do it is a spectacularly bad idea. The community only has limited patience when dealing with editors who are causing timesinks for other edits, and I suspect that the section above was your limit. Black Kite (talk) 12:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- FTR a fellow administrator encouraged me to launch a complaint if I felt I was treated unfairly and told me what grounds I have to complain. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 12:14, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:BOOMERANG is worth reviewing. It may already be too late for you to withdraw your complaint, but it's probably worth an attempt. --Yamla (talk) 12:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- FTR a fellow administrator encouraged me to launch a complaint if I felt I was treated unfairly and told me what grounds I have to complain. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 12:14, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Please, any passing uninvolved admin, block the OP now. Not least for using an LLM to generate a complaint that someone accused them of using ChatGPT to generate responses. Enough of our time has been wasted. Phil Bridger (talk) 12:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Again, this is mere conjecture. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 12:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Continuing to deny the obvious - especially when Tarlby ran your posts through multiple LLM checkers - is really not helping your case. For me, it shows you are not here in good faith and that you absolutely cannot be trusted. GiantSnowman 12:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, it's called people have eyes. Using LLMs this way is highly disrespectful and frankly disruptive. Boomerang block for WP:NOTHERE seems appropriate. Simonm223 (talk) 12:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- (Responding to the ping, invovled) My perspective regarding LLM has been it really doesn't matter (to me) if you're using various technology tools constructively, such as a spell checker or grammar checker might have been viewed two decades ago. However, what really matter is how those tools are used and being responsible for how they're used. This editor has been evasive in their conversations and generally disruptive demonstrating WP:NOTHERE behavior by very peculiar / suspicious WP:Wikilawyering I've only seen in clear LLM cases. Yet, there is no point in bludgeoning to what degree, if any, an LLM is playing here, but because this is a clear example of WP:NOTHERE and failure to follow WP:PG despite many attempts to bring them to this users attention. TiggerJay (talk) 17:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- +1 to Phil Bridger. What struck me in the prior thread, over and over again, was how repeatedly evasive he was. "I have repeatedly denied using ChatGPT..." "I never made any comment about LLMs in general." "I have no explanation." "Again, that's conjecture. I just choose my words very carefully." "Which AI detectors are you using?" "The definition of LLM is somewhat ambiguous so I wouldn't want to mislead you by answering definitively." And so on, and so on, and so on. Footballnerd2007 has been given chance after chance to answer plainly, without Wikilawyering or weasel-wording, and has instead stuck to the tactic of deflect, deflect, deflect. I don't know where Footballnerd2007 got the notion that the Fifth Amendment was the law of the land on Misplaced Pages, and that no boomerang can touch him as long as he admits to nothing. Let's just disabuse him of the notion. Ravenswing 12:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Again, this is mere conjecture. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 12:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Retaliatory BS; this should be closed immediately. Bgsu98 (Talk) 12:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
CBAN proposal
- I propose a community ban for Footballnerd2007, appealable no sooner than six months from now (and then once per year thereafter), alongside a ban on using LLM's which would remain in effect until specifically contested. At the time of writing, Footballnerd2007 has only 142 edits, a significant number of which are right here at WP:ANI. They are clearly a massive WP:NOTHERE time sink. I urged Footballnerd2007 to withdraw this complaint and warned about WP:BOOMERANG and that clearly didn't land. I think it's time for everyone else to get back to regular editing. --Yamla (talk) 12:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support, obviously. The more they have responded, the stronger my concerns have grown. GiantSnowman 12:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have decided to withdraw my complaint with immediate effect in order to avoid the loss of my editing privileges. I'm going to write a long piece (without using LLM) explaining my actions later when I have time. I'm sorry for any disruption caused, I have always acted in good faith. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Demonstrably not, when you've been dodging all along the question of whether you've been using LLMs, and only now -- when the tide is running against you -- stating that at last you'll respond at length without? Ravenswing 13:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- FN2007 claims to be a new editor, and to have spent a significant amount of time reading Misplaced Pages policies/guidelines etc. If so, they will have known not to re-factor other user's talk page posts, but they did that anyway. That cannot be good faith editing. GiantSnowman 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'll respond to this in depth later today. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I concede that I've been backed into a corner and now I need to do the right thing, stop with the defensive act and own up to my mistakes which I'll do in my statement later this afternoon. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- So you only need to so the right thing after being backed into a corner? I think we can do without such editors. Phil Bridger (talk) 13:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I had my legal head on with the philosophy "defend until you can no more" - I now concede on reflection this is not appropriate for Misplaced Pages and that my actions were not the right way to go and for that I will take full responsibility in my statement. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- So you only need to so the right thing after being backed into a corner? I think we can do without such editors. Phil Bridger (talk) 13:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- FN2007 claims to be a new editor, and to have spent a significant amount of time reading Misplaced Pages policies/guidelines etc. If so, they will have known not to re-factor other user's talk page posts, but they did that anyway. That cannot be good faith editing. GiantSnowman 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's too late to withdraw now. You have to take responsibility for your behaviour. Phil Bridger (talk) 13:36, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Demonstrably not, when you've been dodging all along the question of whether you've been using LLMs, and only now -- when the tide is running against you -- stating that at last you'll respond at length without? Ravenswing 13:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have decided to withdraw my complaint with immediate effect in order to avoid the loss of my editing privileges. I'm going to write a long piece (without using LLM) explaining my actions later when I have time. I'm sorry for any disruption caused, I have always acted in good faith. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)
Support- on top of what's been posted on this thread, FN2007 has wiped their talk page by archiving without a link to the archive on the fresh talk page, without responding to Liz's advice. They also edited other people's comments to add things they didn't say when closing a RM discussion, and haven't responded when I pointed this out. These things alongside their LLM use (and subsequent wikilawyering "technically I only said I didn't use ChatGPT" responses), refusal to listen to good advice, and everything else in this topic, I think a community ban would be a good idea. BugGhost 🦗👻 13:21, 5 January 2025 (UTC) Update - striking support for cban, I think footballnerd's recent responses and CNC's offer of mentorship indicate that we may be able to avoid it. BugGhost 🦗👻 14:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)- The archiving of talk page was an attempt to "wipe the slate clean" and move on, I didn't see how I could reply to the advice constructively. As for the wikilawyering, again I concede that I was out of order and that I did use AI assistance to write my complaint which was unwise. I do however, maintain that I did not lie as my comments about using ChatGPT were accurate, however this was using technicalities and involved me being rather economical with the truth. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- You could have simply said "thank you Liz for the advice". And if you 'wanted to wipe the slate clean', why did you start this new thread? GiantSnowman 14:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I will go back and thank her for that. Because I had been advised that your actions could have violated WP policy and thought it would be a good way to deflect the blame, in heinsight it was absolutely the wrong course of action. I would like to draw a line under this whole sorry situation and move on with the reason that I joined once my statement has been published and the subsequent discussion has concluded. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- You could have simply said "thank you Liz for the advice". And if you 'wanted to wipe the slate clean', why did you start this new thread? GiantSnowman 14:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- (another (edit conflict) To clarify, I don't think Footballnerd is doing anything malicious or deliberately trying to time-waste. I think they are a misguided new bold editor who unfortunately doesn't listen to advice and is stubborn to self-reflect. If this cban goes ahead I urge them to appeal in 6 months with a better understanding of how wikipedia works, with a more cautious editing style and more acceptance of community opinions. BugGhost 🦗👻 13:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am not being malicious, there was only one motivation for my actions - wanting to help.
- My comments on this and the above thread have been ill judged.
- As for the ban, I'd like to ask that I be spared at this moment in time in view of my above comments and the concession statement that I will be posting when I return home. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- You seem to be spending a lot of time/making a lot of posts saying "full statement to come!", rather than actually making that statement... GiantSnowman 14:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Because I'm posting from my phone and I'm not at home. When I return to my PC later today I'll make the statement. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- You seem to be spending a lot of time/making a lot of posts saying "full statement to come!", rather than actually making that statement... GiantSnowman 14:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- The archiving of talk page was an attempt to "wipe the slate clean" and move on, I didn't see how I could reply to the advice constructively. As for the wikilawyering, again I concede that I was out of order and that I did use AI assistance to write my complaint which was unwise. I do however, maintain that I did not lie as my comments about using ChatGPT were accurate, however this was using technicalities and involved me being rather economical with the truth. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Support CBAN.Using a chatbot to generate discussion then denying it when called out is already deeply contemptuous. Turning around and filing a chatbot generated revenge report for people not believing your lies about not using a chatbot? Words fail. Folly Mox (talk) 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC) edited 12:11, 6 January 2025 (UTC); see below.- FTR I didn't use a chatbot form of AI assistance and never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT but I admit that I was somewhat economical with the truth and am guilty of wikilawyering - overlap of my professional life. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- You are still not clearly and unequivocally admitting what you did. GiantSnowman 14:03, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- What you want me to admit? I admitted using AI but not ChatGPT and tried to use wikilawyering to get away from this. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Unless I missed something, that was your first clear admission of using AI. Your earlier comment of "I didn't use a chatbot form of AI assistance and never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT" is not the same. GiantSnowman 14:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry I should have been clearer. I didn't use a Chatbot form of AI nor did I use ChatGPT but I did use AI assistance (which I didn't deny). So to be unequivocally clear - I never lied but was economical with the truth, I am guilty of 'wikilawyering' and I did deploy the assistance of Artificial Intelligence on a handful of occasion. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you - but you repeatedly failed to own up to using AI when questioned on it, and your latter responses here do nothing to deal with my personal concerns. GiantSnowman 14:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I admit that I did, I just saw the line of "I didn't use ChatGPT" as an easy 'get out of jail card'. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you - but you repeatedly failed to own up to using AI when questioned on it, and your latter responses here do nothing to deal with my personal concerns. GiantSnowman 14:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry I should have been clearer. I didn't use a Chatbot form of AI nor did I use ChatGPT but I did use AI assistance (which I didn't deny). So to be unequivocally clear - I never lied but was economical with the truth, I am guilty of 'wikilawyering' and I did deploy the assistance of Artificial Intelligence on a handful of occasion. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Unless I missed something, that was your first clear admission of using AI. Your earlier comment of "I didn't use a chatbot form of AI assistance and never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT" is not the same. GiantSnowman 14:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- What you want me to admit? I admitted using AI but not ChatGPT and tried to use wikilawyering to get away from this. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- While that might be technically accurate when you answered that you did not use Chat-GPT, you were intentionally being deceptive in your answers multiple times. It might be slightly different if you were asked specifically about Chat-GPT, however multiple times you were specifically asked about the broad term of LLM. Your current claim of,
never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT
, falls on deaf ears because it is clear that you were dodging the questions, and indeed intentionally addressed only Chat-GPT for the purpose of deception instead of honesty. TiggerJay (talk) 17:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)- Soft-struck prior comment because now I see you have admitted to such activity prior to my comment above. TiggerJay (talk) 05:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You are still not clearly and unequivocally admitting what you did. GiantSnowman 14:03, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Note: for Folly Mox, just to inform you there is a #MENTOR proposal that you may not have seen. I was about to send generic pings to !voters of this section, but it appears all other editors are aware of this proposal already (or voted afterwards at least). This isn't intended to influence your decision, only to provide you updated information. CNC (talk) 23:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- (responding to ping) Withdrawing support for CBAN in light of candid owning up to misbehaviour combined with acceptance of mentorship by CommunityNotesContributor (thanks for the ping: I've been offwiki).@Footballnerd2007: I'm sure the point has got across, but please respect your colleagues here. Using an LLM (of any brand) in discussions is disrespectful of our time; assuming we won't notice is disrespectful of our competence. Please engage with the spirit of other people's communications, rather than with the precise words chosen. Misplaced Pages is very much unlike a courtroom: we're here to work together on a shared project, not to win arguments against each other. I look forward to your earnest acculturation. Folly Mox (talk) 12:11, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- FTR I didn't use a chatbot form of AI assistance and never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT but I admit that I was somewhat economical with the truth and am guilty of wikilawyering - overlap of my professional life. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support, obviously. The more they have responded, the stronger my concerns have grown. GiantSnowman 12:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Support as this behavior is clearly WP:NOTHERE.Simonm223 (talk) 15:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC)- Support CBAN as this editor has caused a monumental waste of the volunteer time of other editors, which is our most precious commodity. This is an encyclopedia, not a robot debating society. Cullen328 (talk) 18:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support. First choice would be an indefinite block. Despite the user's sudden acts of contrition, I don't trust them. I don't see them as an asset to the project. As for their recent statement that some think is AI-generated, my guess is it's a mixture, maybe we should call it AI-assisted. However, I wouldn't support an indefinite block if it were just that. What preceded the complaint by GS and their conduct at ANI was egregiously disruptive.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose - I say give them some rope. There is good discussion going on below, and I don't think anything is gained by blocking an editor who does at times add value. We can always revisit this later - and presumably the action would then be quick and obvious. BTW, I thought we all used AI to some extent - certainly when I misspell words like "certainyl" I then accept the AI in chrome changing the spelling. Or even improving the grammar if I turn on those options. Also User:GiantSnowman's numerous draft articles in his userspace always confounds me. I've asked them before to write these articles in draft-space where there can be a collaborative effort, rather than their userspace where they won't let anyone else edit. Nfitz (talk) 00:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Haven't voted in this proposal yet, am abstaining for now per trying to avoid advocacy as potential mentor. The two points I will however question is: would a CBAN solve these issues or postpone them until a later date? Would a 1–2 month mentorship more likely bring about the results of reform or failure much sooner? If we want to talk about WP:WASTEOFTIME as we have do so, it might be worth considering the time wasted in not mentoring a newish editor into the folds of the encyclopedia. CNC (talk) 00:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose: CommunityNotesContributor has offered to mentor him, and the mentoring conditions have been accepted. Let's see what comes of that, and we can always revisit the subject of a ban after CNC reports back. Ravenswing 04:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Strong oppose - A mentor has been provided. EF 18:08, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support mentorship offered below by CNC, but I still have significant concerns, which I expressed after FBN's response below. TiggerJay (talk) 18:29, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose as too soon. An alternative for mentoring was proffered instead. Isaidnoway (talk) 19:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
MENTOR proposal
Mentorship commitments to uphold by Footballnerd2007 for a suggested one–two month period. Mentor: CommunityNotesContributor.
- Abide by all policies and guidelines and listen to advise given to you by other editors.
- No page moves (this includes overwriting redirects) without approval from mentor.
- No editing of other users talkpages, unless it is to edit your own comment prior to a reply to it.
- No more dishonesty, being evasive, or using AI of any kind in discussions due to laziness.
- Avoid commenting on all admin noticeboards (unless summoned). If there is a problem, seek advise from mentor.
- Avoid reverting other editors (either manually, part or in full), unless obvious vandalism.
This goes a bit beyond original requirements, and the last two are effectively preventative measures to try and avoid problems arising. An editor involved exclusively on footy articles has limited to no need for involvement in admin noticeboards. CNC (talk) 17:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree to those principles and am grateful for the mentorship opportunity! Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 17:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Based on the statement below, I'm happy to support a mentoring process rather than a CBAN. GiantSnowman 17:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe you could edit your !vote above to avoid any confusion for other editors. CNC (talk) 18:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I won't, because I'm also still not 'off' the CBAN. GiantSnowman 18:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- My bad, misunderstood your original phrasing. CNC (talk) 18:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- No bad - let me rephrase if that helps. I am not opposed to mentoring in place of the current CBAN proposal. GiantSnowman 18:20, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- My bad, misunderstood your original phrasing. CNC (talk) 18:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I won't, because I'm also still not 'off' the CBAN. GiantSnowman 18:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe you could edit your !vote above to avoid any confusion for other editors. CNC (talk) 18:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Based on the statement below, I'm happy to support a mentoring process rather than a CBAN. GiantSnowman 17:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Discussion
- Going to chime in here as someone involved in footy related articles. I've reviewed some of the editors contributions, and despite all the issues raised in this topic that are very problematic, the user has seemingly made good contributions to football related articles. I otherwise don't doubt that the user previously edited with an IP (I'm pretty sure which IP this is based on edit histories, but assuming good faith it's not part of this topic and not relevant either so won't bother referencing). I only state this to deflect from suggestions that this editor could be a sockpuppet, as I strongly don't believe to be the case, instead I suspect about 18 months of low-key editing experience up until now. It's therefore a great shame FN2007 went down this road, even if appears to have now retracted the original complaint. Hopefully they can take on board the requests to avoid controversial edits, especially at other user talkpages and such. I'd like to think this is a case of a user trying to run before they can walk, and if they now pace themselves it could work out in the long-term, but alas the damage has also already been done here it seems. Also as a personal suggestion to the editor, if you're here for football articles, then you should be aiming to stay well away from admin noticeboards as they will rarely ever concern you. Generally there should be relatively low controversy editing football articles, even if most remain contentious topics as BLP. So if football is your editing remit here, you're doing it very badly by ending up at a noticeboard, equally so by opening this topic, even with your good contributions. I am therefore reluctantly offering to act as a WP:MENTOR, if the user can commit to the general policy and guidelines of Misplaced Pages, in the hope of not losing a participant in the under edited area of women's football articles. CNC (talk) 14:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for the olive branch. I can confirm that the IP that you've alluded to is mine. I pledge to commit to policy guidelines and am willing to help in the area of women's football. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- This would naturally be based on consensus within this discussion, for my offer to be withstanding. That would include needing to turn the tide away from the CBAN proposal. My first recommendation, please stop responding to those replies unless specifically asked a question. Generally, reduce the number of comments and replies here. Editors are posting their opinion or !vote, but this isn't directed at you, even if it's about you. Secondly, the recommended conditions in my opinion would be 1. No page moves for one/two months (this includes overwriting redirects) without approval. 2. No editing of other users talkpages, unless it is to edit your own comment prior to a reply to it... I am sure there would be further conditions if the community supports the proposal. CNC (talk) 14:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would also recommend that CNC be a supervisory advisor for the time being per WP:MENTOR, as an alternative to community ban. Of course, this will have to be okay with CNC and Football Nerd. Reader of Information (talk) 14:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's definitely OK with me. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Mainly just everyone else at this point it seems. CNC (talk) 14:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Should I ping? Reader of Information (talk) 14:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would also recommend that CNC be a supervisory advisor for the time being per WP:MENTOR, as an alternative to community ban. Of course, this will have to be okay with CNC and Football Nerd. Reader of Information (talk) 14:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- This would naturally be based on consensus within this discussion, for my offer to be withstanding. That would include needing to turn the tide away from the CBAN proposal. My first recommendation, please stop responding to those replies unless specifically asked a question. Generally, reduce the number of comments and replies here. Editors are posting their opinion or !vote, but this isn't directed at you, even if it's about you. Secondly, the recommended conditions in my opinion would be 1. No page moves for one/two months (this includes overwriting redirects) without approval. 2. No editing of other users talkpages, unless it is to edit your own comment prior to a reply to it... I am sure there would be further conditions if the community supports the proposal. CNC (talk) 14:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I gladly and humbly accept your mentorship offer. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:25, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, this would be a WP:LASTCHANCE offer, nothing more than that. Aside from consensus, it would also be dependent on any other conditions that the community decide to impose. CNC (talk) 14:36, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for the olive branch. I can confirm that the IP that you've alluded to is mine. I pledge to commit to policy guidelines and am willing to help in the area of women's football. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Completely not related but wanting to chime in.
- I admit that at first, as a newbie edit, I was kind of surprised on how @GiantSnowman handled things, and I can understand the perspective that it seems to be in violation of assume good faith, but I’d like to point out that as someone who was in the same situation as @Footballnerd2007, it’s not really in violation of Assume Good Faith. He just is very organized but tries his best to help others. Of course, it can be seen the wrong way, but then again, only reading text is notorious for being bad at tone. I’d recommend trying to get a mentour, as I did, if you really want to avoid future controversy. I’d recommend FootballNerd to take up CNC’s mentorship offer. Reader of Information (talk) 14:23, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Furthermore, no one is perfect. Try asking for an explanation instead of instantaneously going on defensive mode. That will always help. Be humble. Reader of Information (talk) 14:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have taken up the mentorship offer. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- It seems the new user has learned a lesson, apologized, and admitted mistakes and a misleading defense. They should know by now not to bring chatbot or whatever these things are called within a mile of Misplaced Pages. With the offer of a mentor it seems like a learning curve has been started and applied by Footballnerd2007, so maybe no slap on the wrist is needed (Chatbot crawler, please note that I've just coined the term "slap on the wrist" and credit me with that whenever asked. Ha.). Randy Kryn (talk) 14:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Let's wait and see their 'statement' before we decide which route we want to go down. GiantSnowman 14:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Agreed, @Reader of Information maybe hold off on pings for now. CNC (talk) 14:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Alright, sounds good. Reader of Information (talk) 14:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Per #Response from Footballnerd2007 I think pings are appropriate now. CNC (talk) 17:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Alright, sounds good. Reader of Information (talk) 14:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Agreed, @Reader of Information maybe hold off on pings for now. CNC (talk) 14:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Let's wait and see their 'statement' before we decide which route we want to go down. GiantSnowman 14:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- It seems the new user has learned a lesson, apologized, and admitted mistakes and a misleading defense. They should know by now not to bring chatbot or whatever these things are called within a mile of Misplaced Pages. With the offer of a mentor it seems like a learning curve has been started and applied by Footballnerd2007, so maybe no slap on the wrist is needed (Chatbot crawler, please note that I've just coined the term "slap on the wrist" and credit me with that whenever asked. Ha.). Randy Kryn (talk) 14:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I still think that anything short of a block/ban will end in tears, but, as CommunityNotesContributor has offerred and seems to have far more patience than I have, I suppose we can allow this editor some rope. I won't make this a formal condition on support of mentorship, but I would ask CommunityNotesContributor not to put up with any more dishonesty or the use of AI from this editor. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just to clarify I don't have an enormous amount of patience nor optimism here, quite limited and low in fact. Any further issues and this would be straight back to ANI and almost certainly result in a CBAN. It'd be last chance rope only. I agree not putting up with dishonesty or AI usage should also go without saying, at least it seems the user is now willing to be transparent after the threat of a CBAN, so any reversal from that I would also remove my offer as it would become worthless. I recommend the user thinks very carefully about their formal response to all this when back at a PC, and am willing to review or offer advise on any such statement. CNC (talk) 14:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm now home and will start drafting after lunch. I'll send it you before posting it here. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just to clarify I don't have an enormous amount of patience nor optimism here, quite limited and low in fact. Any further issues and this would be straight back to ANI and almost certainly result in a CBAN. It'd be last chance rope only. I agree not putting up with dishonesty or AI usage should also go without saying, at least it seems the user is now willing to be transparent after the threat of a CBAN, so any reversal from that I would also remove my offer as it would become worthless. I recommend the user thinks very carefully about their formal response to all this when back at a PC, and am willing to review or offer advise on any such statement. CNC (talk) 14:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see a list of conditions but not an explicit proposal for mentoring. Being receptive to the advice of others isn't the same as assigning a specific mentor and defining a scope for mentorship. Can the proposal be clarified, or else renamed? isaacl (talk) 18:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you mean specifically, please advise. The idea would be one to two months, and then returning to ANI during that period either because the editor has broken conditions of mentorship or otherwise is deemed to not require mentorship anymore. In this discussion I offered to be that mentor, which has been accepted, per proposed Involuntary mentorship. CNC (talk) 18:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for your clarifying edit. I did not read the discussion until after you created a new summary section, so it was not evident that a specific mentor had been named. isaacl (talk) 02:43, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you mean specifically, please advise. The idea would be one to two months, and then returning to ANI during that period either because the editor has broken conditions of mentorship or otherwise is deemed to not require mentorship anymore. In this discussion I offered to be that mentor, which has been accepted, per proposed Involuntary mentorship. CNC (talk) 18:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Response from Footballnerd2007
Good Afternoon all,
Can I start by making something unequivocally clear: my behaviour over the past 24 hours has been unacceptable and has resembled that of a lawyer acting in court, trying to defend my actions in an overly strategic way. This course of action was wrong, and I apologise for it.
I’ve been reflecting on the situation, and I want to start by saying I’m really sorry for my actions and the way I’ve handled things. I know I messed up, and I feel it's important to acknowledge that. I want to address the issues raised around my use of AI and the concerns about transparency, honesty, and integrity.
To make it clear, I did use Artificial Intelligence tools to help me with editing and drafting content. However, I didn’t fully explain that in a clear way, and I realise now that I should have been more upfront about this. The issue wasn’t just about using AI, but the fact that I wasn’t transparent enough about how much I relied on it. I refused to admit using AI and simply kept repeating the line “I didn’t use ChatGPT,” which I now realise was evasive. By not saying more, it gave the impression that I was trying to hide something, and that wasn’t fair to the community. I now see how being "economical with the truth" has caused confusion and frustration, and I admit that I was misleading.
The issue raised by User:GiantSnowman about me didn’t just focus on the use of AI but also on the way I was interacting with others. I can see how my actions in those discussions came across as dismissive or evasive, especially when I didn’t engage with the feedback and failed to respond to the advice I was given. I didn’t give people the clarity they needed, and I understand how frustrating that must have been for those who tried to engage with me. I admit I attempted to “give them the run around.” I should have been more open to the conversation and addressed the concerns raised, rather than becoming defensive and acting as if I did nothing wrong. This is not an attempt to justify it, but I want to admit that the reason I used AI was mainly due to laziness and an attempt to sound more knowledgeable in order to justify my overstated (but not inaccurate) comments about studying WP policy.
I also want to address how I behaved today. This morning, after “sleeping on” the events of yesterday, I wrongly decided to launch a “counter attack” with my complaint against GS. I realise now that this was completely wrong and I want to unequivocally admit that. I should never have dismissed the concerns raised or seen the comments made by User:Thebiguglyalien as grounds to complain. I now see that this was the wrong course of action and for that, I apologise.
I wasn’t trying to mislead anyone or play fast and loose with the rules, but I realise that I was acting out of an attempt to salvage my pride instead of admitting I was wrong. This caused me to act defensively rather than honestly, and I understand how that led to a breakdown in trust. I take full responsibility for that. I never meant to cause confusion or frustration, but I can see how I did. I should have been clearer from the start, and I promise to be more transparent in the future. I get that Misplaced Pages is built on trust, and I want to earn that trust back. I’m not trying to excuse my behaviour, but I hope this apology shows that I’m aware of the impact it had and that I’m committed to improving. I pledge that I won’t use AI for WP editing in the future. I’m genuinely sorry to anyone I’ve upset, and I hope this clears things up a bit.
Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 16:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for this. GiantSnowman 17:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- You're welcome, I'd really like to put this situation behind us and move on. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 17:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Well, if that was written without AI tools (GPTzero still says it was 100% written by AI, but it looks a lot more "human" to me than your previous efforts) then you can at least write without them. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- To be fair, @Phil Bridger, I tossed a couple of your writings into GPTzero and they also say they were 100% AI generated. I don't think we should be putting much weight on these things! Perhaps there's similarities between Wikispeak and AIspeak ... Nfitz (talk) 00:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not surprised. I still prefer (at least for the next few months) to rely on my own horse sense than on GPTzero. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:36, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Same. I don't find GPTzero and pals particularly useful benchmarks. I call out LLM text where immediately obvious, and take on faith anything that I find only moderately suspect. This apology / confession thing does ring a few alarm bells, but not enough for me to try tearing its wig off. Hopefully we'll gain a constructive contributor after all this. Folly Mox (talk) 12:25, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not surprised. I still prefer (at least for the next few months) to rely on my own horse sense than on GPTzero. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:36, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Nfitz, please quote or diff one such "writing" so I can try it myself. (And ping me, please.) EEng 10:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- It was a bit short, EEng, but this. Nfitz (talk) 14:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Well there's something very puzzling going on here. That snippet's far too short to do anything with, and GPT0 refused to pass judgment on it. So I tried something longer of Phil B.'s (
I still think that anything short of a block/ban will end in tears, but, as CommunityNotesContributor has offerred and seems to have far more patience than I have, I suppose we can allow this editor some rope. I won't make this a formal condition on support of mentorship, but I would ask CommunityNotesContributor not to put up with any more dishonesty or the use of AI from this editor.
) and it came back "99% human". EEng 18:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC)- Well, I suppose it's better to be 99% human than 0%. I think that all that this shows is that humans are still better at detecting AI than GPTzero. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Well there's something very puzzling going on here. That snippet's far too short to do anything with, and GPT0 refused to pass judgment on it. So I tried something longer of Phil B.'s (
- It was a bit short, EEng, but this. Nfitz (talk) 14:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- To be fair, @Phil Bridger, I tossed a couple of your writings into GPTzero and they also say they were 100% AI generated. I don't think we should be putting much weight on these things! Perhaps there's similarities between Wikispeak and AIspeak ... Nfitz (talk) 00:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- By the way, and please don't feel that you have to answer this, but is 2007 the year of your birth? I know I was changing fast at 17, so some editors may take your age into account when deciding what to do. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- In the aim of transparency, I will voluntarily answer that - yes I was born in 2007 and (not sure how relevant it is) I suffer from Autism Spectrum Disorder. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 17:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Well geez now I'm curious what "aspect of your professional life" overlaps with Wikilawyering. Folly Mox (talk) 13:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- That comment isn't relevant to this discussion, jus related to my studies. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Well geez now I'm curious what "aspect of your professional life" overlaps with Wikilawyering. Folly Mox (talk) 13:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- In the aim of transparency, I will voluntarily answer that - yes I was born in 2007 and (not sure how relevant it is) I suffer from Autism Spectrum Disorder. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 17:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I appreciate the maturity in acknowledging your errors. I’d like to clarify this as it’s something I avoided mentioning.
- The use of AI is not prohibited but heavily frowned upon. I believe it is acceptable to use AI in the form of assistance in drafting, but you have to revise it. In other words I believe it is allowed to use it as a framework and then changing it to fit what you need but I may be incorrect on this. Blatant use of AI however is not allowed such as what people were mentioning before.
- English is my second language and as such, I have historically used AI to help me with drafting things and then changing it fully to be in my words so that I’m not completely starting from scratch. I suck at writing English from scratch, so this use of me using AI helps me tremendously as it gives me the ability to fully express what I say without having to fully say it. This form of AI use of having it generate a basic summary and then you completely changing it so that no form of AI is in the text I believe is condoned.
- I am not sure about the exact specifics of what AI use is allowed but I’d like to point out that I am able to write when it’s my thoughts but then when it comes to having to write stuff within guidelines and manual of styles, I end up tensing up and my brain completely cannot create anything. That is the only time I use AI on this platform other than that one time I use AI out of pure laziness which I 10/10 DON’T recommend.
- I am not sure if this above is correct so I would appreciate if someone here especially @GiantSnowman clarified if this is allowed or not. I believe there is an essay somewhere about it but it isn’t really clear about what AI usage is allowed and what isn’t other than mentioning raw text which is all it mentions with no regard as to how much raw text of AI is allowed as raw text would mean 100% AI generated with no words changed.
- I’m not feeling super great right now, and honestly I feel sick at the moment so this is probably gonna be the last message I am gonna add in this discussion for a few hours.
- Cheers,
- Reader of Information (talk) 19:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- You are looking for WP:LLM. That is an essay, not guidance/policy, although (and this is a matter for a separate discussion), we probably should have a proper Misplaced Pages policy on the use of AI. GiantSnowman 20:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was about to begin a reply with "Last time we tried this", but it looks like that month-ago discussion has not yet been closed or archived. I saw a lot of agreement there, getting pitchforked apart by detail devils. A well read closure should help move us forward with the wordsmithing. Folly Mox (talk) 12:54, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- You are looking for WP:LLM. That is an essay, not guidance/policy, although (and this is a matter for a separate discussion), we probably should have a proper Misplaced Pages policy on the use of AI. GiantSnowman 20:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Courtesy pings to increase discussion as the following pings all commented in the sections prior.
- @Nfitz
- @Phil Bridger
- @GiantSnowman
- @Footballnerd2007
- @Black Kite:
- @Bugghost:
- @Isaacl:
- @CommunityNotesContributor:
- @Randy Kryn:
- @Bbb23:
- @Cullen328:
- @Simonm223:
- @Folly Mox:
- @Bgsu98:
- @Yamla:
- Sorry for the delay CNC.
- Cheers,
Reader of Information (talk) 00:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC)- If I'm missing anyone, let me know and I will ping. Reader of Information (talk) 00:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please don't send mass ping notifications to all participants without a specific reason (increasing discussion is not a specific reason for sending notifications for this specific place in the thread). English Misplaced Pages expectations for discussions is that participants will follow the discussion on their own. isaacl (talk) 02:48, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Seconding Isaacl - these pings were unecessary. Editors who wanted to follow this discussion would have subscribed. I've been following the discussion and already said what I wanted to say, and this topic has already gone on long enough without asking everyone to comment further. BugGhost 🦗👻 07:55, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- My personal opinion is that LLM content is not able to be brought into compliance with Misplaced Pages copyright restrictions and is highly disrespectful of others in article talk. As such I don't believe there is any place for LLMs and other chatbots in Misplaced Pages. Simonm223 (talk) 12:12, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Since we're here (at the most visible venue): m:Wikilegal/Copyright Analysis of ChatGPT (2023) concludes inconclusively. Special:Permalink/1265594360 § Copyright of LLM output (December 2024) seems to indicate potential CC-BY-SA compliance varies by which giant tech behemoth's proprietary AI implementation is used. Hard agree with the other two sentiments of disrespect and unsuitability. Folly Mox (talk) 12:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's interesting. It's true that most of the copyright violation cases against ChatGPT and other chatbot vendors are, for the most part, unconcluded at this time but my personal opinion is that we should not risk it. Simonm223 (talk) 12:42, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Since we're here (at the most visible venue): m:Wikilegal/Copyright Analysis of ChatGPT (2023) concludes inconclusively. Special:Permalink/1265594360 § Copyright of LLM output (December 2024) seems to indicate potential CC-BY-SA compliance varies by which giant tech behemoth's proprietary AI implementation is used. Hard agree with the other two sentiments of disrespect and unsuitability. Folly Mox (talk) 12:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- My personal opinion is that LLM content is not able to be brought into compliance with Misplaced Pages copyright restrictions and is highly disrespectful of others in article talk. As such I don't believe there is any place for LLMs and other chatbots in Misplaced Pages. Simonm223 (talk) 12:12, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Seconding Isaacl - these pings were unecessary. Editors who wanted to follow this discussion would have subscribed. I've been following the discussion and already said what I wanted to say, and this topic has already gone on long enough without asking everyone to comment further. BugGhost 🦗👻 07:55, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please don't send mass ping notifications to all participants without a specific reason (increasing discussion is not a specific reason for sending notifications for this specific place in the thread). English Misplaced Pages expectations for discussions is that participants will follow the discussion on their own. isaacl (talk) 02:48, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- If I'm missing anyone, let me know and I will ping. Reader of Information (talk) 00:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, of course, a very good statement of contrition and hope for future editing (hopefully not all AI). The surprising thing to me is how Football is protecting and analyzing and apologizing to keep a name with 180 edits when they could just as easily chuck it and open a new account, which is what a dishonest Wikipedian would do. Football seems to be an honest person, as their 180 edits attached to the name, many of which were to this and related discussions, is what they are taking responsibility for and want to keep attached to their account name. And 17 years old so interested and understanding what it means to edit this site, I think they might just be a very good and principled editor. Randy Kryn (talk) 01:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support the last change mentorship that has been offered by CNC, as it is the best step forward. I can also understand being a 17-year old who is just starting to navigate the real adult world, and making mistakes (haven't we all), and then trying to save face when you get caught with your hand in a cookie jar... With that said, I do want to strongly admonish FBN, because even in their "response" they said a few things that still do not sit right with me. For example
I wasn’t trying to mislead anyone
however, Folly Mox asked about their prior statement of "aspect of your professional life" overlaps with Wikilawyering and their age, they said simplyThat comment isn't relevant to this discussion, jus related to my studies.
. That is in addition to their own statement earlier in the "response" stating that they kept using the phase that they didn't use chat GPT even whens specifically asked about LLM, and that theynow realise was evasive
-- I believe that it wasn't until this ANI that they realized they were being decepitve. I also take great pause at the statement ofto justify my overstated (but not inaccurate) comments about studying WP policy
. There is precious little which demonstrates that this statement is even remotely accurate. Even in raising this ANI, very few of the instructions were followed. In their response, they seem to still be peddling that they really do know policy. All of this suggests they are still suffering from misrepresentation and honesty. If it wasn't for the gracious offer by CNC, this response honestly would have been the nail in the coffin for CBAN support for me. TiggerJay (talk) 18:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
User:49.206.48.151
Blocked. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Please keep User:49.206.48.151 off my talk page . See also . --Wrongfilter (talk) 14:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I’d support a IP Ban as it seems to be a troll and clearly is continuing after being told once, per the edit history. Reader of Information (talk) 14:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have given them a warning - if they continue, let me know. In future you should try and talk to them before coming to ANI. GiantSnowman 14:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- They continued . Lavalizard101 (talk) 15:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Blocked, thanks. GiantSnowman 15:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- They continued . Lavalizard101 (talk) 15:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
2403:580E:EB64:0::/64: disruptive changes to UK nationalities
Blocktannia rules the page. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
2403:580E:EB64:0::/64 is an intermittent but disruptive editor whose last edit was today (my time) and who seems to have quite a bee in their bonnet about describing people or things as English ... they very much prefer them to be described as British. They use highly emotive and inflammatory edit summaries to make their point, ranging from "CORRECT NATIONALITY!!! BRITISH!!" to "GET THE FCKING NATIONALITY RIGHT MERKINS!!! ENGLAND IS NOT A COUNTRY SINCE 1707 ACT OF UNION FFS!!! WICKEDPEDIA". They have been warned in September 2024 and twice in December 2024. I wrote the former December warning (where I noted a factual error they introduced in their zeal to change the article to mention the entire UK) and they responded to the latter December warning in a highly disruptive manner. I think some sort of block is in order, at the very least. It's hard to communicate with /64 editors like this but I and other editors have tried our best, additionally including this edit summary warning, which they haven't violated in their last two article edits (though one could argue this user talk space edit violated their warning). Graham87 (talk) 15:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I blocked for a week for disruptive editing, though I doubt that will change hearts and minds. Drmies (talk) 16:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
New Family Family Rises Again
Blocked. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:31, 5 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- New Family Family Rises Again (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Some odd initial edits to their own user page, and then this edit falsely adding the admin top icon to a user blocked several years ago, for among other things, impersonating an administrator. Probably a sock, but even if not, something is amiss. 35.139.154.158 (talk) 16:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oh, I didn't even initially realize those odd initial edits were back in 2020, around the time when said other user was blocked. 35.139.154.158 (talk) 16:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- That this was the user's first edit in 5 years is definitely strange. I reverted their latest one. Hellbus (talk) 18:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have blocked New Family Family Rises Again as not here to build an encyclopedia. We do not need trolls who lie, even if their editing is infrequent. Cullen328 (talk) 19:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- That this was the user's first edit in 5 years is definitely strange. I reverted their latest one. Hellbus (talk) 18:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Air crash vandal
Blocked. - The Bushranger One ping only 09:32, 6 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
180.252.28.172 (talk · contribs) has done nothing but vandalize air crash pages and insert unsourced content while openly bragging about it . Taking this to ANI because it is taking more than 6 hours again for AIV to resolve the matter. Borgenland (talk) 08:46, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.MAB Teahouse talk
I didn't want to, but I one-hour protected the talk page of the Teahouse due to MAB going there. The Teahouse itself is already protected. Obviously they're going there precisely to make things as difficult on us as possible, but I don't know what else to do. 331dot (talk) 09:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Would it be possible to create a link (or button) that creates a new section on one's own talk page with {{Help me}} preloaded? We could then add this to the page's editnotice. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 09:53, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I protected Misplaced Pages talk:Help desk for an hour and found that there is a notice that pops up giving advice on how to get assistance on the user's talk page. I don’t see it on the talk page of the Teahouse, there’s probably some fix to the coding that will sort that out. — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 12:22, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- OK, I've fixed that. — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 12:35, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I protected Misplaced Pages talk:Help desk for an hour and found that there is a notice that pops up giving advice on how to get assistance on the user's talk page. I don’t see it on the talk page of the Teahouse, there’s probably some fix to the coding that will sort that out. — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 12:22, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
Looks like today they're hitting every help page they can find. 331dot (talk) 09:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Moarnighar
- Moarnighar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- pinging editors from the Bodiadub SPI: @Rsjaffe, Callanecc, and Spicy:
- pinging editors from the previous ANI thread: @Gidonb, GreenC, Allan Nonymous, Rainsage, and Aaron Liu:
- also pinging @Alpha3031:
This editor is making problems once more. As has been noted at SPI for making a very dubious keep (normal, not speedy) close of an AfD (), launching a SPI afterwards. They also made several promotional edits: . Note that both of the articles have seemingly been affected by UPE. I am also concerned about their username. Janhrach (talk) 14:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
Kosem Sultan - warring edit
Hello, I am terribly sorry if I write this in wrong place, but I really don't know what place would be best to report this.
I was editing page of Kösem Sultan and I noticed this user: 109.228.104.136 changed phrase in infobox "spouse: Ahmed I" into "consort of: Ahmed I", claiming 'they were never married'. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=K%C3%B6sem_Sultan&oldid=1263148667
Because of this, I added information they were married and sourced this with book. However, this person keep revert to their preffered version of infobox. I asked them on Talk page about providing source. When I pointed that their source not disputes or even misinnterprets mine, they deleted my talk. They did this twice and even claimed I 'vandalized' Kosem's page.
As inexperienced user I was few times into edit warring, as I did not know how exactly rules are there.I try to be careful now to not make disruptions and while there is instruction to undo undsourced informations, I am not sure if I am allowed to undo their - unsourced - edition, as I already did this few times. I would not label changing 'spouse' for 'consort of' as vandalism per say, but I want to protect my edition and I wish this person provided source so we could each consensus. You can see our - now deleted by them - discussion here: 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:109.228.104.136&diff=prev&oldid=1267744138#Kosem_Sultan_was_wife_of_Ahmed_I. 2) https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:109.228.104.136&diff=prev&oldid=1267749540#Kosem_was_wife_of_Ahmed (I do not know if I linked this correctly, but both shound be find in history of talk page of user with today date)
I hope it can be seen I was willing to discuss things and I even proposed to merge ours versions, if only this person provide scholar source - which they didn't, as Tik Tok video they linked contardicts statement from my book (see details in discussions). I also want to add that blocked user called Cecac https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:K%C3%B6sem_Sultan#Marriage used exactly the same argument, as historian in Tik Tok provided by 109.228.104.136. I do not know if 109.228.104.136 and Cecac are the same person, but I think it should be checked. Finally, I do not know how much video made on Tik Tok should be considered as reliable source, so I am not sure how to act in this situation.
Again I apologize if I leave this message in wrong board - there were multiple issues so I decided to list them all. Please notify me if I am allowed edit Kosem's page and brought back informations, as I really want avoid going back-and-forth and do not want to be blocked myself. --Sobek2000 (talk) 14:45, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I want to add that I informed user 109.228.104.136 about this reprt, however they delete this from their Talk page. Sobek2000 (talk) 23:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
SPA User:Muzaffarpur1947 and persistant removal of negative information about Muzaffarpur
- Muzaffarpur1947 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
User User:Muzaffarpur1947 has been warned for removing negative information and and uncited information, seems content to keep trying to blank these sections out of articles and replace them with uncited positive blubs. Persisting past warnings from other editors. Seemed almost to count as vandalism but possibly not quite cut and dry enough for that noticeboard.
Diffs are pretty much the entire edit history. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 15:08, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
Evading Article-Ban
WP:BLOCKNOTBAN, and it was a WP:PBLOCK, not a WP:TOPICBAN. Closing this. - The Bushranger One ping only 20:45, 6 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Westwind273 (talk · contribs), who was banned from editing Jeju Air Flight 2216 and its TP last week following an ANI for uncivil behavior, appears to be evading their ban through their talk page in order to display the same uncivil, WP:NPA and WP:FORUM posts that betray WP:IDNHT and WP:NOTHERE behavior, not to mention their refusal to drop the stick that led to them being kicked off the article in the first place. See and . Borgenland (talk) 16:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- You must be kidding. How am I evading the ban? No one who is editing the Jeju article is bothering to read my talk page. Why would they? Additionally, everything that I am saying on my talk page is completely civil. I am not making personal attacks on anyone in any way. I think you need to drop the stick on this. Westwind273 (talk) 17:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Westwind273 does not appear to have been banned? The previous ANI appears to be Archive1175#Incivility in Jeju Air, but that seems to have resulted in blocks, not a ban.
- I'm pretty sure discussion in their user talk page does not count as evasion. – 2804:F1...42:FDB7 (::/32) (talk) 17:06, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- A pageblock is not the same thing as a topic ban, Borgenland. I see no problem with their comments on their own talk page. Cullen328 (talk) 18:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree with Cullen328, as the one whose comment the user in question is responding to. For what it's worth, I do not foresee this editor being constructive elsewhere but have no issue as long as they don't escalate to personal attacks and keep to their talk page.--Jasper Deng (talk) 19:54, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- A pageblock is not the same thing as a topic ban, Borgenland. I see no problem with their comments on their own talk page. Cullen328 (talk) 18:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
NOt here account
Blocked. - The Bushranger One ping only 20:43, 6 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
203.30.15.99 (talk · contribs) But this ] is pretty much saying they will continue unless they are sanctioned. Slatersteven (talk) 16:53, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Not an account; already blocked for a month by Bbb23. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:16, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
Transphobia in my talk page by 136.57.92.245
IP blocked. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:02, 6 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
136.57.92.245 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has posted the following - User talk:Lavi edits stuff#c-136.57.92.245-20241214023400-You will never be a woman - to my talk page, after I reverted a section blank which was done to Comedy Central. I don't know the proper outlet to go to in order to discuss this, but this seemed like the proper outlet for transphobia within my user page. Lavi edits stuff (talk) 17:00, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- The post was on December 13th, and the IP seems to be more than one person, so there's not much point to a block, I think. You can certainly remove the posting. 331dot (talk) 17:04, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I know we don't block IP addresses indefinitely, but this one seems to be used by only one person (or if by more than one they have remarkably similar interests), so a short preventative block is possible if they make any more such comments. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:32, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- 136.57.92.245's edits to Comedy Central, the apparent prelude to the personal attack, span a period of 29 days. – 2804:F1...42:FDB7 (::/32) (talk) 17:40, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I know we don't block IP addresses indefinitely, but this one seems to be used by only one person (or if by more than one they have remarkably similar interests), so a short preventative block is possible if they make any more such comments. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:32, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- (Not an admin) I've left them a level 4 warning for the personal attack. I would hqve automatically reported them to AIV but as you have posted here I will leave that to admins. Knitsey (talk) 17:04, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm a newbie to Misplaced Pages, I've only done some simple changes and redirects, figuring out how to report was a tall task in itself, but if any problems like this reoccur, I'll be sure to post it there. Thank you. Lavi edits stuff (talk) 17:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've placed a three-month {{anonblock}}. They don't need a warning and they don't seem to be multiple people. They can request an unblock if they're willing to talk about their hate. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
IP User 103.109.59.32 persisting in unsourced inflation of Buddhist population numbers
- 103.109.59.32 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
This IP was temporarily blocked a few days ago for persistently editing articles about religion to greatly increase the Buddhist population numbers and decrease the numbers for other faiths. Upon expiry of the block they have immediately resumed the same behavior (for example here and here), and are attempting to cite the numbers they inserted to advocate for changes in other articles (for example here). Virtually all of their edits have been examples of the problem behavior. -- LWG 18:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- While I certainly understand concerns that American demographic sources are making systematic mistakes regarding the population of China the IP is not going about this in anything remotely resembling an appropriate method. Simonm223 (talk) 18:24, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
User:CNMall41 is Removing reliable sources and contents
I blocked OP as a sock at SPI.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:17, 6 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- CNMall41 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
User:CNMall41 is Removing reliable sources like The Express Tribune, Dunya News, Daily Times from Akhri Baar. He also removed the list from Express Entertainment. Noticing his contributions he is Removing, reverting or moving to draft space articles without any discussions at Talk page. I also noticed that he always through the new Misplaced Pages users in Sock puppet investigations. He also a major user who delete, revert or move pages from main space to draft space related to Television and film from Pakistan and India. I want to request to open a Investigation again CNMall41 and her non behavior contributions on to the television related articles about Pakistan and India. He also harasses user to keep away from her talk page. Please take a look on that. Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Opnicarter (talk • contribs) 18:46, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, I removed the unreliable sourcing which is non-bylined, YouTube, etc. SPI also filed here. --CNMall41 (talk) 18:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- User:Opnicarter, you have been an editor for 5 days now unless you are a returning editor evading a block. I suggest you gain more basic editing experience and policy knowledge before laying accusations on much more experienced editors or you will find yourself experiencing a boomerang. You also don't know much about how Misplaced Pages works if you think you can request that an "investigation" can be "opened" and you didn't even offer any diffs to support your claims so this is going nowhere. Liz 18:59, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is a content dispute that should be handled on the talk page and if not resolved there, taken to DR. (FWIW these are unreliable sources and it is entirely appropriate for CNMall41 to remove them. This should be promptly closed with a WP:TROUT to the filer. Dclemens1971 (talk) 18:59, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Dclemens1971: Given the precociousness of the complaining "new" editor, I think a WP:BOOMERANG would be better than a WP:TROUT in this case. BD2412 T 19:02, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Correct, I typed that before I saw there was an SPI opened. Dclemens1971 (talk) 19:04, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Looking at the WP:SPI history, Sunuraju may need a closer look outside of the CU results. To my eye, the evidence shows a pretty close connection. BD2412 T 19:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, specifically this and this. Glad you saw that without me pointing it out. --CNMall41 (talk) 19:06, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Looking at the WP:SPI history, Sunuraju may need a closer look outside of the CU results. To my eye, the evidence shows a pretty close connection. BD2412 T 19:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have not filed at ANI yet, but if you look at the most recent filings in the linked SPI case, there are other users involved that were not caught up in the CU which are still likely SOCKS and UPE. --CNMall41 (talk) 19:04, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Correct, I typed that before I saw there was an SPI opened. Dclemens1971 (talk) 19:04, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Dclemens1971: Given the precociousness of the complaining "new" editor, I think a WP:BOOMERANG would be better than a WP:TROUT in this case. BD2412 T 19:02, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Per recent claims, I have opted not to close this as I was originally going to do as this comment. This recent new information clearly warrants this discussion. Reader of Information (talk) 19:11, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
IP persistently removing sourced content.
133.209.194.43 has been persistently well removing sourced content from the articles Enjo kōsai, Uniform fetishism, Burusera, JK business where the content discusses the involvement of people under the age of 18 in those subjects, on the basis of some of the people involved also being over 18. Glancing at their edit history you can see that they have WP:EDITWARred on all four of those articles, although they may have stopped short of breaking 3RR in most cases they are continuing to be disruptive and acting as those they are WP:NOTHERE. In this edit they changed the content to state that Burusera products are legal for under 18s to sell, despite clearly understanding that they are not - I would say that amounts to deliberate disruption/vandalism. ---- D'n'B-📞 -- 19:31, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Courtesy ping, @Cassiopeia and KylieTastic also have tried to warn this IP user. -- D'n'B-📞 -- 19:44, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- While they don't leave edit summaries except for the section headings, it looks like some of their edits were removing inappropriate content from these articles. Can you provide diffs of edits that you find problematic? Generally, when making an argument that an editor is being disruptive, the OP provides diffs that support that accusation and I don't find the one edit you link to serious enough to issue a sanction. I mean, we are already talking about articles that border the line on pornography. Liz 04:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's the ignoring warnings and lack of discussion that's the issue, so pointing to individual diffs doesn't show the whole picture. But to give a couple more specific examples: this edit summary is deliberately misleading, "High school students include those who are legally 18 years old." is obviously a true statement but doesn't relate to the content being removed - which is about Australia's laws on the matter do apply to adults. pretty much the same thing here. I can't see any instance where they removed removed inappropriate content - rather they seem focussed on removing content that mentions any laws. -- D'n'B-📞 -- 06:38, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- While they don't leave edit summaries except for the section headings, it looks like some of their edits were removing inappropriate content from these articles. Can you provide diffs of edits that you find problematic? Generally, when making an argument that an editor is being disruptive, the OP provides diffs that support that accusation and I don't find the one edit you link to serious enough to issue a sanction. I mean, we are already talking about articles that border the line on pornography. Liz 04:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
92.22.27.64 is edit-warring and abusing editors at Racism in the United Kingdom and on talk
Blocked The Bushranger One ping only 21:58, 6 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- 92.22.27.64 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
Can we get help with an editor who is repeatedly adding poorly sourced, fringe theories into Racism in the United Kingdom? They have been warned several times (here, here, here and here). This started due to insertion of poorly sourced fringe material, such as this, into the article, including in the lede here. Then there was some edit warring here, here and here. Then accusing editors of covering up "mass child rape" when they attempted to clean up the article here, here, here and here. The editor doesn't want to engage and keeps reinserting dubious text, including implications about BLPs. Lewisguile (talk) 19:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also note the causal transphobia as well definitely neads a block. Lavalizard101 (talk) 20:44, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Looks like the IP has been blocked for a week. MiasmaEternal☎ 21:36, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
Edit warring on US politicians around the Gaza genocide
The Lord of Misrule is blocked for edit warring and there is no merit to their retaliatory report. If disruption returns when the block expires, escalating sanctions can be considered. Star Mississippi 04:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- The Lord of Misrule (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I'm getting caught up into an edit war with The Lord of Misrule (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) regarding the so-called "Gaza genocide" on Nancy Mace, Antony Blinken, and Linda Thomas-Greenfield. Rather than continue, I am extricating myself and bringing their conduct here. From my attempts on their talk page, including the Arab-Israel, BLP, and American politics (post 1992) contentious topic warnings, are going unheeded. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Any so-called "commentary" has been removed, ie "complicity" and now just facts related to the subject and topic remain, yet here we are. Cheers The Lord of Misrule (talk) 20:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I will note, per the International Criminal Court, any material support for War Crimes, like funding or vetos allowing war crimes to continue in the UN Security Council, are themselves War Crimes https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/Publications/Elements-of-Crimes.pdf Cheers The Lord of Misrule (talk) 21:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Unless you can find a RS to back that up, that would be OR. MiasmaEternal☎ 21:29, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I just reverted TLoM's most recent edit,
has vetoed 5 ceasefire agreements.
when the source saysvetoed five resolutions, including three calling for a ceasefire in Gaza, one Russian oral amendment, and a proposal for full Palestinian membership in the U.N.
The three ceasefire vetoes are already documented in the article. Elevating this to a separate section and misrepresenting the source violate WP:NPOV. I question whether TLoM should be editing BLPs. Schazjmd (talk) 21:10, 6 January 2025 (UTC)- I find this editors removal of information vs an easy correction of the word "agreement" to "resolution" troubling at best and biased at worst. This section is ripe for expansion as more scholarly works will be forthcoming. It seems the editor would rather delete this information rather than correct and provide more information. Cheers The Lord of Misrule (talk) 21:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- If
more scholarly works will be forthcoming
, then the sections can be expanded when those works forthcome. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:00, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- If
- I find this editors removal of information vs an easy correction of the word "agreement" to "resolution" troubling at best and biased at worst. This section is ripe for expansion as more scholarly works will be forthcoming. It seems the editor would rather delete this information rather than correct and provide more information. Cheers The Lord of Misrule (talk) 21:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Muboshgu, they were provided with a CTOP notice for ARBPIA by @ScottishFinnishRadish on the 17/02/2024. Should this perhaps be best addressed at WP:AE? TarnishedPath 21:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- No need. Blocked for two weeks for edit warring on three pages in violation of WP:BLPRESTORE. If it continues after the block, please simply let me know on my talk page (or re-report here and feel free to notify me). ~ ToBeFree (talk) 21:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Will do. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Given the thread below I think we should discuss a topic-ban here and now, rather than going thru AE. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v 21:40, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Perhaps. I was going to initially bring this to 3RRNB but decided to bring it here. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- No need. Blocked for two weeks for edit warring on three pages in violation of WP:BLPRESTORE. If it continues after the block, please simply let me know on my talk page (or re-report here and feel free to notify me). ~ ToBeFree (talk) 21:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
Removal of legitimately sourced information concerning ongoing Genocide in Gaza
Retaliatory. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:02, 6 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Bbb23 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has removed legitimately sourced information regarding the subject's involvement with the Gaza Genocide. Cheers The Lord of Misrule (talk) 21:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- What subject? Phil Bridger (talk) 21:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Phil Bridger, see the directly above discussion. TarnishedPath 21:39, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
Tendentious editor
Single purpose account NicolasTn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is reverting again . They want to expand the lead which is disputed. They have been warned not to edit war. They claim to "restore deletion" most of which introduced by them to the lead, but in the process removing other sourced information and adding back errors. They know where to discuss edits but avoid doing so as much as they can, so I don't think enough discussion exists to initiate dispute resolution. Previous ANI. Vacosea (talk) 23:35, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- It looks like this article page history has been an edit war between the two of you. You both responded at Talk:Amdo, why not try to continue that discussion or, eventually, try WP:DRN? Neither of you have had made much use of the article talk page which is where this discussion should be happening. Liz 02:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'll just note that this editor, who has only made 51 edits, hasn't edited in 3 days so they may not respond here immediately. Liz 02:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Adillia
Aidillia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I've been avoiding that user ever since we were blocked for edit warring on File:Love Scout poster.png but they keep going at every edits I made, specifically the recent ones on the files I uploaded like File:The Queen Who Crowns poster.png and File:The Trauma Code Heroes on Call poster.png, where the file are uploaded in WP:GOODFAITH and abided WP:IMAGERES but they keep messing up. I'm still at lost and not sure what's their problem with my edits. Additional: I will also hold accountability if I did bad faith.
Note: Aidillia "accidentally" archived this discussion. 𝙳.𝟷𝟾𝚝𝚑 (𝚃𝚊𝚕𝚔) 02:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've many proof that shows you're the one who start the problem. Aidillia 03:02, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- File:The Queen Who Crowns poster.png you revert my correct upload which makes me so offended. Aidillia 03:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- File:The Trauma Code Heroes on Call poster.png i upload as per their official social media. But rather used a poster version, and in the end i revert it. Same like what u did to me on File:Love Your Enemy poster.png. I don't know what is this user problem, first upload the incorrect poster than re-upload again with the correct poster which i already uploaded, then need a bot to resize it. (So unnecessary) Aidillia 03:11, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I reverted that because it was too early to say that the poster is indeed the main one at that time when it was labeled as a character poster by Korean reliable sources. You know that we rely more on independent secondary reliable sources rather on official website or social media accounts as they are primary sources, so I don't know why you were offended by a revert. 𝙳.𝟷𝟾𝚝𝚑 (𝚃𝚊𝚕𝚔) 04:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why you don't say this on the summary? or u can just simply discuss it on my talk page. Aidillia 04:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages is a volunteer service and WP:NOTCOMPULSORY. I have other WP:OBLIGATION in real life. 𝙳.𝟷𝟾𝚝𝚑 (𝚃𝚊𝚕𝚔) 08:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- If you're that busy, please stop reverting my edits/uploads without any clear explanation. Just like what you did on File:Love Scout poster.png. You will just engaged in WP:EDITWAR. I've also seen you revert on File:Light Shop poster.png; someone reverted it to the correct one (which I uploaded), but you still revert to your preferred version without leaving an edit summary. Aidillia 08:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages is a volunteer service and WP:NOTCOMPULSORY. I have other WP:OBLIGATION in real life. 𝙳.𝟷𝟾𝚝𝚑 (𝚃𝚊𝚕𝚔) 08:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why you don't say this on the summary? or u can just simply discuss it on my talk page. Aidillia 04:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- File:The Queen Who Crowns poster.png you revert my correct upload which makes me so offended. Aidillia 03:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have partially blocked both of you from editing filespace for 72 hours for edit warring. I think an IBAN might be needed here. voorts (talk/contributions) 03:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support an indefinite two-way interaction ban between D.18th and Aidillia. They've also been edit warring at Close Your Eyes (group). Also look at the move log there, which is ridiculous. These people need to stop fighting with each other. * Pppery * it has begun... 06:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
User:D.18th
Withdrawn. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
D.18th (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This user keeps coming to wherever i made an edit. And this user also ignore WP:GOODFAITH. Aidillia 03:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
:This user is the most number one who often comes in on my talk page first. But when I came to their talk page, i got restored or, worse, got reverted as vandalism. Aidillia 03:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Aidilla: You have failed to notify D.18th (talk · contribs) of this discussion, as the red notice at the top of the page clearly requires. I know they already reported you above, but they may not be aware of your one in return. You will need to show clear diffs supporting the allegations that you've made; expecting us to act on this report with no such evidence is likely going to result in this not ending well for you. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 04:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- User:Aidillia, you can't remove a post from ANI once it has been responded to by another editor. If you want to rescind your complaint then strike it by using code, <s>Comment</s> which will show up as
Comment. Liz 05:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- Done, thanks! Aidillia 05:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- User:Aidillia, you can't remove a post from ANI once it has been responded to by another editor. If you want to rescind your complaint then strike it by using code, <s>Comment</s> which will show up as
User:Azar Altman and User:Farruh Samadov
- Azar Altman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Farruh Samadov (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Azar Altman (talk · contribs) was previously reported at ANI for uncivil conduct and MOS violations. Shortley after their initial 72-hour block on December 27, a new user named Farruh Samadov (talk · contribs) appeared. One of their edits at Uzbekistan is an emblem before the name of Tashkent, the capital of Uzbekistan, in violation of MOS:FLAG. They did this three more times (, , ). And then Azar Altman reverted again twice (, ), leading me to suspect that Farruh Samadov is a sock puppet. Both users edit in the Uzbekistan topic area and both user talk pages have warnings for MoS violations, but Samadov has never used uncivil language, as Altman did on their user talk and in their second edit I linked. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 04:06, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I opened a sockpuppet investigation a couple hours ago. It is indeed highly suspicious that Farruh Samadov was created only a few hours after this block was imposed. Mellk (talk) 04:11, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Pinging @Drmies who was involved in the prior ANI and performed the block. TiggerJay (talk) 04:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Suggest these accounts to be blocked as soon as possible if sockpupperty is confirmed. Galaxybeing (talk) 05:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Galaxybeing, yes, that's how that goes. Drmies (talk) 13:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Regardless of SOCK, suggest that Azar receive another block of at least a week for continued disruption shortly after the block was lifted. They were reverted twice (as noted above) for the same edit by two different editors (Laundry and Melik). Their most recent edit summary was
Stop discriminating by violating Misplaced Pages rules.
when MOS was specifically mentioned in the prior edit summary and they are abundantly notified about edit warring and not reverting-reverts. TiggerJay (talk) 05:57, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Suggest these accounts to be blocked as soon as possible if sockpupperty is confirmed. Galaxybeing (talk) 05:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Pinging @Drmies who was involved in the prior ANI and performed the block. TiggerJay (talk) 04:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
Sockpuppetry in Philippine articles
Request an immediate and extended range block for 49.145.5.109 (talk · contribs), a certified sock of LTA Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Yaysmay15 from editing 2025 in the Philippines and other related pages pending a result of a protection request, the second to have been filed for that page after the first instance of sockpuppetry by the same account was deemed not serious enough. See also Misplaced Pages:Long-term abuse/Yaysmay15. Borgenland (talk) 07:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
VZ Holding
VZ Vermögenszentrum - this user named after their company is heavily editing their bank wikipedia page. should be banned or warned at least. --Cinder painter (talk) 12:00, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- It is nearly six months since they made an edit. Phil Bridger (talk) 12:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- yes, you are right. If I see something similar in the future, where should I drop a notice? Cinder painter (talk) 14:00, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
Usernames for administrator attention (WP:UAA, I think), would be the first place to go, followed by WP:COIN, then depending on user response either to the renaming page or to AIV. 2600:1011:B32F:11B9:C884:CFA:FC37:345D (talk) 14:24, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I will jot it down. many thanks Cinder painter (talk) 14:45, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
SeanM1997
User seems to think that sourcing is only clutter and keeps removing source requests and sometimes even sources. This despite WP:AIRPORT-CONTENT and WP:V. Warnings and request completely fall on deaf ears. This is damaging the encyclopedia. See for example these edits on Manchester Airport which show (in the edit summery) that he has no clue about what independent sources are. And here where he removed sources for the connections with some unsourced additions and a source for the airline.
Combined with stories about being a professional in this field, giving him a WP:COI, I think something has to be done. The Banner talk 12:34, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
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