Misplaced Pages

User talk:Jimbo Wales: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editContent deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 19:51, 30 June 2015 view sourceRichard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users195,161 edits Restore my deleted comments← Previous edit Latest revision as of 17:03, 11 January 2025 view source Lowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,304,379 editsm Archiving 1 discussion(s) to User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 252) (bot 
Line 1: Line 1:
<noinclude>{{Pp-move-indef|small=yes}} {{pp-sock|small=yes}}
{{pp-move|small=yes}}
</noinclude>{{NOINDEX}}
{{Stb}} {{noindex}}
{{Stb}}
{{Usercomment}} {{Usercomment}}
{{#ifeq:{{PROTECTIONLEVEL:edit}}|autoconfirmed|}}
{{Notice|1={{Center|1='''Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates.'''<br />
{{Notice|1={{Center|1='''Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates – he has an ].'''<br />
'''He holds the founder's seat on the ]'s ].<br />The three trustees elected as community representatives until July 2015 are ], ], and ].<br />The Wikimedia Foundation Senior Community Advocate is ].'''}}}}
'''He holds the founder's seat on the ]'s .<br />The current ] occupying "community-selected" seats are ], ], ] and ].<br />The Wikimedia Foundation's Lead Manager of Trust and Safety is ].'''}}}}
{{Notice|1={{Center|1='''This page is ] and you will not be able to leave a message here unless you are a registered editor. Instead, <br> ] '''}}}}
{{Talk header|search=yes}} {{Talk header|search=yes}}
<!--{{User:MiszaBot/config
|maxarchivesize = 250K
|counter = 190
|minthreadsleft = 2
|algo = old(1d)
|archive = User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive %(counter)d
}}-->
{{Misplaced Pages:TPS/banner}} {{Misplaced Pages:TPS/banner}}
{{annual readership}}
{{User:ClueBot III/ArchiveThis
{{Press
|archiveprefix=User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive
| subject = talkpage
|format= %%i
| author = Matthew Gault
|age=36
| title = Misplaced Pages Editors Very Mad About Jimmy Wales' NFT of a Misplaced Pages Edit
|index=no
| org = ]
|minkeepthreads=2
| url = https://www.vice.com/en/article/qjbkvm/wikipedia-editors-very-mad-about-jimmy-waless-nft-of-a-wikipedia-edit
|maxarchsize=250000
| date = 8 December 2021
|numberstart=189
| quote = The trouble began when Wales posted an announcement about the auction on his user talk page—a kind of message board where users communicate directly with each other.
|header={{aan}}
}}
{{User:MiszaBot/config
| algo = old(10d)
| archive = User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive %(counter)d
| counter = 252
| maxarchivesize = 350K
| archiveheader = {{aan}}
| minthreadstoarchive = 1
| minthreadsleft = 3
}} }}
{{Centralized discussion}} {{Centralized discussion}}

__TOC__ __TOC__
{{-}} {{-}}


==]==
== SOPA-like issue (Freedom of Panorama issue at EU parliament) ==
]
], blacked out to show the effect of removing section 62 of the ], which allows the photography of buildings in the UK]]
]
Since you were instrumental in making the community aware of the ], I wonder if you aware of - and what is your take on - the ] and ] issues? --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]&#124;]</sub> 01:59, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Happy New Year Jimbo!!! I hope all is well with you and your team.
:This doesn't look like as potentially severe an issue as SOPA even though it is still significant. ]&nbsp;] 02:04, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
::Britain has got it right and does not impose the sort of restrictions that some continental countries have in this area. Although the ] is largely a talking shop, it is worrying that Britain could be dragged down the same road as the continental countries if this proposal became law across Europe.--'''''] <sup>]</sup>''''' 07:45, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

=== Limiting the monopoly of Wikimedia ===

So it appears that Wikimedia, the American monopoly, was one of the reasons behind ]'s amendment to limit ] across the European Union (mentioned by @] above). Certainly he devoted quite a long part of his to criticize Wikimedia's—and, it appears, Creative Commons's—requirements that works be editable and usable for commercial purposes.

I can't read any French, and it seems that his message gets lost during automated translation, but certainly being named as a reason for this amendment is quite interesting. That said, I think it would be useful if we were provided with an English translation of this statement so as to allow a productive discussion if anyone wishes to have one. ] (]) 18:05, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

:Both Misplaced Pages & Wikimedia Commons don't hesitate to remove content that volatiles a particular countries freedom of panorama copyright laws. So jean-marie cavadacase is moot. So why discuss a journalists confused interpretations of WP?--] (]) 21:04, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

::{{ping|Aspro}} Cavada is not a journalist: he is an MEP who has tabled an amendment which would remove Freedom of Panorama from those countries in the EU which have it - most of them, including the UK. ] (]) 21:32, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

:::Thanks for pointing that out. He should do his homework then and not let ] do his thinking for him so that he ends up sounding like a parrot.--] (]) 21:43, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

:Don't try to pin any requirements on Creative Commons. They offer a variety of licenses you can choose from:
:*CC Zero (CC0): The author or licensor waives as many rights as legally possible, worldwide.
:*Attribution (BY): Licensees may copy, distribute, display and perform the work and make derivative works based on it only if they give the author or licensor credit.
:*Share-alike (SA): Licensees may distribute derivative works only under a license identical to the license that governs the original work.
:*Non-commercial (NC):Licensees may copy, distribute, display, and perform the work and make derivative works based on it only for noncommercial purposes.
:*No Derivative Works (ND): Licensees may copy, distribute, display and perform only verbatim copies of the work, not derivative works based on it.
:Its your choice which to use. but CC0 and CC BY-SA are the best choices if you want your work to be used on Misplaced Pages. --] (]) 21:25, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

::Thank you for this valuable lesson in Creative Commons licencing, @], but let me suggest that you might have chosen the wrong ] for your lecture. To bring this discussion back on topic, however, let me clarify that I think Cavada represents a group opposed to the idea of allowing commercial reuse of works visible in all CC licences without the -NC clause.

:::I do believe that I have chosen the right audience -- the person who wrote the words "Creative Commons's requirements that works be editable and usable for commercial purposes". That's clearly wrong as the existence of CC NC and CC ND proves. It is your choice which CC license to apply to your works. CC has no requirement that a work be editable or usable for commercial purposes -- but Misplaced Pages does. --] (]) 04:59, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

::I think it would be interesting to get a better understanding of this position and the reasons behind his taking it. (Is it just to protect the interest of architects? Is it an example of anti-Americanism? Opposition to multi-billion corporations (which, incidentally, the Wikimedia Foundation, and certainly not the Wikimedia movement, are not)? ] (]) 22:14, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

::That's a confusing post - Attribution is required for all Creative Commons licences (i.e there's no CC-SA licence as your post accidentally implies) with the exception of their No Rights Reserved/Public Domain dedication/declaration (aka the CC0 licence). There are also a number of scenarios where a Creative Commons licence cannot be used, such as screenshots of open source software, and there's a wide range of non Creative Commons licences that we welcome with equally open arms (but maybe a bit of a groan) like the old GFDL licence. Hell, there's even the Do What the Fuck You Want to Public License. The choice of licence will not affect the use of your work on Misplaced Pages either, and to suggest otherwise is also wrong. The best image to illustrate an article should (and almost always will) be chosen regardless of licence. Users must be comfortable releasing their work under the licence they're most comfortable with, and if they prefer a licence other than the Creative Commons licence, they'll be in no way disadvantaged for doing so.
::The best licence from our point of view (as free and open source people) is one which requires attribution and forces derivative works to be released under an equally open licence, so we can make use of those derivative works - i.e the CC BY-SA licence OR something like the GFDL licence. The CC BY-SA licence is normally the easier to use, but there's no best choices if you want your work to be used on Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 22:19, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

:::There certainly is a CC-SA license. It is at . It is what CC calls "retired" (and pretty much everyone else calls "deprecated") but works exist that are licensed under CC-SA, and in the case of the licenses that were only retired because of inadequate demand. you can still choose them if that's what you really want to do.


Could you or your page watchers help me with ]? The draft has been declined and tagged up. It was then deleted years ago. I had it restored today after I came across one of his photos. I think he and his photography are fascinating for capturing aspects of New Zealand's transportation and industrial history. His work is in museum and library collections. At least one of his photographs has been used in a book. He photographed Maori sites.
:::Your claim that "The choice of licence will not affect the use of your work on Misplaced Pages" is also incorrect.
{| CLASS="wikitable" ALIGN=CENTER STYLE="width:60%; text-align:center; margin-left:6em"
|-
!COLSPAN=2 STYLE="background-color:blue; color:white;"| '''License Compatibility with Misplaced Pages <small><sup>(For text only; Please see Misplaced Pages:File copyright_tags for licenses allowed with files)</sup></small>'''
|-
!COLSPAN=1| Licenses compatible with Misplaced Pages !!COLSPAN=1|Licenses ''not'' compatible with Misplaced Pages
|-
!COLSPAN=2 STYLE="font-weight:normal; font-style:italic"|Creative Commons Licenses
|-
| CC BY (all versions and ports) || CC BY-SA 4.0 <small><sup>NOTE:</sup></small>
|-
| CC BY-SA 1.0, 2.0, 2.5, 3.0 || CC BY-NC
|-
| || CC BY-NC-ND
|-
| || CC BY-ND
|-
| || CC BY-NC-SA
|-
!COLSPAN=2 STYLE="font-weight:normal; font-style:italic"|Other Licenses
|-
| GFDL and CC BY or CC BY-SA||Any GNU-only license
|}


], standing beside a collection of Maori carvings, including two fire-screens, carved by her father Albert Percy Godber]]
:::<small><sup>NOTE: According to the WMF legal team, CC BY-SA 4.0 is not backwards compatible with CC BY-SA 3.0. Therefore, mixing text licenses under 3.0 and 4.0 would be problematic, however files uploaded under this license are fine.</sup></small>
I'm sorry I haven't been able to work the draft up enough to get it admitted to mainspace. It does make me wonder about what we do and don't include, our notability criteria, Articles for Creation (AfC) process, and collaborative ethos. Thanks so much for any help or guidance you can offer! Have a great 2025 and beyond. Thanks again. ] (]) 17:57, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
:If Godber is not ], which is what the draft reviewers say, then Wikipedians can't fix that. ] (]) 09:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
::] is he "notable" and should we have an entry on him? ] (]) 17:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
:::I dunno, but ] wrote that the draft did not show significant coverage about the subject in published, reliable, secondary sources that are independent of the subject at that point. ] (]) 19:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
]
::::And this a request to revisit his finding. We have a photographer from more than 100 years ago who documented areas of New Zealand's North Island. We have his work in a National Library collection. We have his work discussed as iconic for one of his Maori related photographs. We have his work revisited in a 2018 exhibition. We have descriptions of him related to his photographs, his career, and we have the photos themselves documenting the areas industries, sites, infrastructure from more than 100 years ago. If I was satisfied with the previous conclusions I would not be here. So I ask again, should we have an entry on this subject? Should we just attribute his photos where we use them to an unlinked name with no explanation or discussion of who he was? I think the answer is clear, and I wanted to hear Jimbo's opinion. I am aware of what was previously stated. Years have passed and I believe it's time to reevaluate and consider. I also think it's worth reflecting on our article creations processes more generally and how we apply our conception of "notability". ] (]) 23:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
*Godber's photographs include "views of the ] including large numbers of cars traveling to ], and the ]. Another group of images relate to a holiday at the ] Homestead in ] with scenes of farm life, including ], ] sheep, and farm buildings. During their stay in the South Island Godber also took photographs of Dunedin (including the ], ], ], the ], and the Hillside Railway Workshops); ] (including the Invercargill Railway Workshops); Stewart Island, ], ], ], ] and ]. Various railway stations in Canterbury and Otago, the ], and the Rosslyn Mills. Godber was a volunteer fireman with the Petone Fire Brigade with the album including views of the building, groups of firemen, fire engines and other fire fighting equipment, and a building in Petone damaged by fire. In his work with New Zealand Railways, mainly at the Petone Railway Workshops, he took interior photographs of various buildings, including the Machine Shop and finishing benches, the engine room, lathes, boilers, and fitting shops. He also took photographs of many of the steam engines that were built and worked on at the workshops. One scene shows a group of men watching a fight. Many images show his interest in logging railways, particularly in the ], ], ] area. Scenes of logging camps, various methods of transporting logs including bullock teams, logging trains, and dams created and then tripped to send logs down by river, and timber mills. Other topics covered in Godber's photographs are scenes at Maori ] and meeting houses, with some of the people identified; Maori carving and rafter designs; beekeeping, and gold mining." ] (]) 23:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
*It's hard to choose which photos to share. Historic views areas, industries, bridges, natural features, railways and bridges, crafts. to his photos on Misplaced Pages Commons. Many already illustrate our entries on various subjects. ] (]) 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
:: If you really want to help him, get a couple stories published about him in newspapers. Notability here will follow. ] (]) 01:23, 11 January 2025 (UTC)


== Just wanted to say ==
:::BTW, if anyone is confused by the two different spellings of license/licence used on this page, ''"In British English, Canadian English, Australian English, Irish English, and New Zealand English the noun is spelt licence and the verb is license. The spelling licence is not used for either part of speech in the United States."'' --] (]) 04:59, 29 June 2015 (UTC)


You have created something valuable to everyone on the Internet. I'm sure you get this a lot, but thank you. <br>It may sound weird, but Misplaced Pages has helped me through some tough times. We can never thank you enough for this sometimes infighting, sometimes peaceful, sometimes divided, but always united community You are the backbone of the <s>cabal of editors</s> <b>thriving community</b> that is Misplaced Pages.
::::That's as unclear as your previous post - can you please just stop with the dubious licence advice which is confusing and unhelpful.
I wish I could give you a BarnMilkyWay but no one's come up with that, apparently. (]) &#124; (PS: Have a good day) 00:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
::::That the choice of licence will not affect the use of your work on Misplaced Pages is absolutely correct (in this case I made a distinction between an image being uploaded and an image being used to illustrate an article) you made it appear that if images were uploaded with a licence other than CC0 or CC BY-SA, so the GFDL licence, CC BY, FAL etc you wouldn't see your work being used. That's not the case, as I made clear, there's a number of other equally free licences which are acceptable, and media files used to illustrate an article will not be chosen based on the licence. I did think it was clear than Non Commercial and/or Non Derivative licences can't normally be uploaded (as the File Uploader won't normally allow such work to be uploaded) but there are circumstances in which they can also be used.
::::We accept, for example, dual licensed images and there are a number of images which have a GFDL licence and a Non Commercial and/or Non Derivative Creative Commons licence (see ] for an example). It's also quite common to allow re-users to choose either CC BY-SA and CC BY-NC licences, so anybody wanting to use an image for commercial purposes if forced to release a derivative work under a free licence, but a private user isn't, they only need to Attribute the original author.
::::We also accept images licensed under a Non Commercial and/or Non Derivative licence under a claim of Fair Use, where necessary, but that's exceedingly rare.
::::It's perhaps worth mentioning that the deprecated CC-SA licence is absolutely fine for Misplaced Pages as it does not limit commercial use and prevent derivative works, but it's absent from your table. GFDL and CC BY or CC BY-SA isn't a licence, it's two licences together, what is known as dual licensing (I licence all my images this way) and end re-users of work can choose which licence they're going to follow. They don't need to use both licences if they don't want to do so.
::::Finally, it's worth mentioning the existence of other licences not mentioned anywhere in this discussion, such as the UK Open Government Licence, which allows both text and images to be used on Misplaced Pages, as it's compatible with the CC BY-SA licences. There's a decent guide on Commons - see ]. ] (]) 10:26, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
:::::To create a better perspective: Misplaced Pages is intended to be a 💕. Free according the ]. ] (]) 12:58, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
:::: <small>.................Americans also don't spell spelled as "spelt." ] (]) 15:41, 29 June 2015 (UTC)</small>
:::update: '']'' says that (fr) (Nous Citoyens - 13.800 militants) to create some new political entity. --] (]) 23:13, 29 June 2015 (UTC)


== ==
===Example===
Let's see if I got this right (illustrating with example):
{| class="wikitable"
|-
! High resolution photograph of building in country without Freedom of Panorama
! Current situation: Publication of photograph in US without prior consent of the building's architect?
! Current situation: Publication of photograph in the country where the building is situated?
! When the original Reda proposal gets accepted by the EU
! When Cavada's amendement proposal gets accepted by the EU
|-
| ]
| Allowed (when ignoring legislation in Belgium, a country without Freedom of Panorama)
| Not allowed without prior consent by the architect of the building
| Belgium (within an indeterminate timespan) obliged to update its legislation with Freedom of Panorama, removing red tape to (re)publish the image everywhere
| Status quo, no obligation for Belgium to extend its laws with Freedom of Panorama
|}
(I didn't choose the example image randomly: it is the EU building in Brussels: when the EU wanted to make a letterhead with a logo based on the form of that building, the architect refused, which he could according to the copyright provisions in Belgium) --] (]) 07:27, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
: Note that the bluelink in the lower left corner of the table would become a redlink soon when {{u|Aspro}}'s "Both Misplaced Pages & Wikimedia Commons don't hesitate to remove content that volatiles a particular countries freedom of panorama copyright laws." is correct. --] (]) 07:47, 30 June 2015 (UTC)


::<small> Whoops. Over reliance on my spelling chequer --] (]) 13:52, 30 June 2015 (UTC)</small> For the interested. ] (]) 10:58, 6 January 2025 (UTC)


:Summary: {{tq|This document intends to show the problematic situation in Hebrew Misplaced Pages (hewiki), and provide evidence that it has been overtaken by a group of mostly religious and nationalist editors, who prevent others from achieving higher permissions while promoting their own allies.}} –] <small>(])</small> 22:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
== ] violation? ==


== Happy new year ==
Is it a violation of ] for an administrator to revdel content off their own talk page (or should it be)? I think so. I just stumbled upon a deletion log that showed an editor has been doing that. A reason given recently was "RD2: Grossly insulting, degrading, or offensive material". ( is NOT related; it's coincidental that both are about possible ] violations.)--]<sup>(]•])</sup> 07:18, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
:If you don't give me a link to the actual thing you are talking about, how am I to evaluate it? It is not automatically a violation, depending on what it is that's being revision deleted. Certainly I would like anyone under any circumstances to get rid of "Grossly insulting, degrading, or offensive material" as quickly as possible. If the material is somehow borderline for that designation, then it would likely be prudent for an admin to get someone else to take action. But even in that case, if it's just annoying material, then I don't see what the problem is. We are not a wide open free speech platform, and aggressive behavior of all kinds should be cleaned up quickly.--] (]) 08:52, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
:In general, admin tools can be used on pages where one is involved if they're not involved in the specific question and the correct answer is blindingly obvious. So, (as Jimbo notes), it's hard to know without the specific case, but if IPs were replacing my userpage with
{{quote| ] is the king of the dickbutts}}
:for example, it'd be fine for me to protect my userpage, or whatnot, because it's just vandalism, and not an issue which requires judgement in which I'm involved. No conflict, no question of whether my "involvedness" is influencing the outcome. ]<font color="FF8800">]</font> 09:30, 30 June 2015 (UTC)


Good days, Jimbo. I'd like to say that Chinese Misplaced Pages is introducing ARBCOM System currently, since Arbcom on this project, and in fact all the project is originated from the idea of yours, do you have any opinion for that? Any hints, advice or suggestions? ] 15:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
::If you ran into that same bit of vandalism targeted at me on my userpage, you would of course revert (anyone would) and possibly block the user or even protect the page, depending on what else is going on, but would you revdel the vandalism? I think not. On the other hand, if the vandalism included my social security or credit card number, I would expect it to be revdeled on sight by the first admin who notices it.


== ==
::Could we have a vague description of the general sort of thing that was revdeled in this case? No details, just something like "personal information" or "unfounded accusation" or "cursing/insulting". --] (]) 17:51, 30 June 2015 (UTC)


That doesn't sound good. From '']''. ] (]) 09:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
== Interlinking between Misplaced Pages, WikiCommons and Wikisource ==


:Being discussed at ]. ] (]) 10:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Is the interlinking between Misplaced Pages, WikiCommons and Wikisource a core goal? The current trend at Wikisource is to remove all links to Misplaced Pages to give a distraction free experience for the reader. It seems like it is removing one of the most valuable aspects of having the three projects on a common platform. Should a text naming General Foo of Fooville be linked to the person and the location in Misplaced Pages? How can we balance the reader who desires a "clean experience" versus the reader who wants to be informed? There are so few editors at Wikisource that a single person can determine policy. --] (]) 16:10, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
::Thanks! ] (]) 11:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
::Also discussed at ] and ]. ] (]) 19:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC)


Jimbo, could I ask you please to respond to from {{u|Tryptofish}}?
:When I visit ], I very much appreciate links to ], and I did not know of a trend to remove such links. When I visit a physical library, I do not consider one section to be a distraction from another section. If I have a business on Main Street, I do not consider another business next door on Main Street to be a distraction from my business—in fact, there can even be a ] relationship between them.
:... it's not just if you've edited about Israel-Palestine. It could be if you've edited anything about climate and fossil fuels, gender, immigration, vaccines, and of course, American politics. I doubt that they have the bandwidth to actually identify and harass every editor who could possibly be seen as editing information that goes against a MAGA POV, but they will likely find some easily identified targets, whom they will use to "set an example", as a way of instilling fear in our editing community. I fully expect that, in the coming months, {{u|Jimbo Wales}} will be hauled before a hostile and performative Congressional hearing, much in the manner of university presidents. I hope very much that he will be better prepared than ] was.
:—] (]) 17:20, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
:Yeah, I know this is grim. But I believe the first step in dealing with this is to go into it with our eyes open, to know what we are dealing with, what motivates it. And, more than harming individual editors, the real objective of Heritage ''et al.'' is to instill fear in the rest of us. If we become too fearful to revert POV edits, they win. In a very real sense, we have to keep doing what we have been doing, and continue to be a reliable resource for NPOV information. --] (]) 18:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
] (]) 05:33, 10 January 2025 (UTC)


:Well, I fully agree that developments in terms of arguments and actions aimed at destroying trust in knowledge (and of course our specific interest, trust in Misplaced Pages) are extremely worrisome, particularly as I agree that for many who are doing it, the motive does appears to be the undermining of civic norms and democracy. I also agree with Tryptofish in a part that you didn't quote: "In a narrow sense, it's technically true that if you "out" yourself, there's no point in anyone else doing it. But once your identity is known, you become vulnerable to all of the kinds of real-life harassment that doxed people find themselves subjected to. It doesn't matter, in that regard, how they found out your identity." That's a sad balancing act that no Wikipedian should have to face.
:I found a current discussion at https://en.wikisource.org/Wikisource:Scriptorium#Linking_to_Wikipedia, that is, ] (version of ).
:As a side note, I don't think that the reliability of the Heritage Foundation as a source is particularly related to these despicable actions. Whether they should be considered a reliable source in some matters is really unrelated to whether they hate us or not.--] (]) 14:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
:—] (]) 18:15, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
::Suddenly ] going to court to get user-data seems like the model of gentlemanly behavior. ] (]) 11:51, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
*Do we want to promote inter-connectivity between projects, or are we going to allow each project to become a walled garden with only internal links? Imagine if Misplaced Pages severed all connections to Wikicommons images or Wikisource texts, what would the utility of that be? --] (]) 18:56, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
:::{{tq|That's a sad balancing act that no Wikipedian should have to face.}} Unfortunately, the scales have been inexorably slipping out from beneath the foundation's abilities or willingness to protect its volunteers for my entire wiki-career. There's no balancing force at work. The private equity community has made gadflies out of what we used to label reliable local news media; Alphabet and Meta are actively coopting precision, privacy, and the public domain, while attempting to minimize the effectiveness of good faith actors like Internet Archive. Now suddenly en.wikipedians are facing the sort of personal threats long experienced by volunteers at ru.wiki and zh.wiki. The forces now arrayed against free information don't need to be actively coordinating in order to rapidly bring us to 2+2=5 territory. Any established editor could reasonably see Western culture has been under relentless attack for a long time. Here comes the Heritage Foundation's leaks, hot off Heritage's bangup release of Project 2025, leaking articles through partisan outlets apparently intended to make it appear (in one case) the ADL's recent reliability downgrade at RSNP was anyone else's fault but the ADL's own writings and actions. The news of such activity appears to threaten the community members directly and personally. ] (]) 13:26, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 17:03, 11 January 2025

    Welcome to my talk page. Please sign and date your entries by inserting ~~~~ at the end.
    Start a new talk topic.
    Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates – he has an open door policy.
    He holds the founder's seat on the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees.
    The current trustees occupying "community-selected" seats are Rosiestep, Laurentius, Victoria and Pundit.
    The Wikimedia Foundation's Lead Manager of Trust and Safety is Jan Eissfeldt.
    This page is semi-protected and you will not be able to leave a message here unless you are a registered editor. Instead,
    you can leave a message here
    This is Jimbo Wales's talk page, where you can send them messages and comments.
    Archives: Index, Index, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 200, 201, 202, 203, 204, 205, 206, 207, 208, 209, 210, 211, 212, 213, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220, 221, 222, 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230, 231, 232, 233, 234, 235, 236, 237, 238, 239, 240, 241, 242, 243, 244, 245, 246, 247, 248, 249, 250, 251, 252Auto-archiving period: 10 days 
    This user talk page might be watched by friendly talk page stalkers, which means that someone other than me might reply to your query. Their input is welcome and their help with messages that I cannot reply to quickly is appreciated.
    Media mentionThis talkpage has been mentioned by a media organization:

    Centralized discussion
    Village pumps
    policy
    tech
    proposals
    idea lab
    WMF
    misc
    For a listing of ongoing discussions, see the dashboard.

    Albert Percy Godber

    Albert Percy Godber at his brass finishing lathe in the Petone railway workshops. A sign before him reads: `This is my busy day'
    "Looking down over a settlement with houses set amongst trees. The arm of a lake or harbour lies beyond, with a mountainous range on the far side. Photograph taken by Albert Percy Godber. Probably taken at Queenstown, Godber having visited Lake Wakatipu and Queenstown in 1926"

    Happy New Year Jimbo!!! I hope all is well with you and your team.

    Could you or your page watchers help me with Draft:Albert Percy Godber? The draft has been declined and tagged up. It was then deleted years ago. I had it restored today after I came across one of his photos. I think he and his photography are fascinating for capturing aspects of New Zealand's transportation and industrial history. His work is in museum and library collections. At least one of his photographs has been used in a book. He photographed Maori sites.

    "Phyllis Mary Godber wearing a Maori cloak, holding a taiaha, standing beside a collection of Maori carvings, including two fire-screens, carved by her father Albert Percy Godber

    I'm sorry I haven't been able to work the draft up enough to get it admitted to mainspace. It does make me wonder about what we do and don't include, our notability criteria, Articles for Creation (AfC) process, and collaborative ethos. Thanks so much for any help or guidance you can offer! Have a great 2025 and beyond. Thanks again. FloridaArmy (talk) 17:57, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

    If Godber is not WP:NOTABLE, which is what the draft reviewers say, then Wikipedians can't fix that. Polygnotus (talk) 09:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
    user:Polygnotus is he "notable" and should we have an entry on him? FloridaArmy (talk) 17:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
    I dunno, but User:Sulfurboy wrote that the draft did not show significant coverage about the subject in published, reliable, secondary sources that are independent of the subject at that point. Polygnotus (talk) 19:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
    "Godber family outside their house 'Railway Whare' at 23 Bay Street, Petone, circa 1906. From left to right: Albert Percy Godber, Mary Ann Godber, Laura Godber, Phyllis and William. Photograph taken by Albert Percy Godber"
    And this a request to revisit his finding. We have a photographer from more than 100 years ago who documented areas of New Zealand's North Island. We have his work in a National Library collection. We have his work discussed as iconic for one of his Maori related photographs. We have his work revisited in a 2018 exhibition. We have descriptions of him related to his photographs, his career, and we have the photos themselves documenting the areas industries, sites, infrastructure from more than 100 years ago. If I was satisfied with the previous conclusions I would not be here. So I ask again, should we have an entry on this subject? Should we just attribute his photos where we use them to an unlinked name with no explanation or discussion of who he was? I think the answer is clear, and I wanted to hear Jimbo's opinion. I am aware of what was previously stated. Years have passed and I believe it's time to reevaluate and consider. I also think it's worth reflecting on our article creations processes more generally and how we apply our conception of "notability". FloridaArmy (talk) 23:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Godber's photographs include "views of the Hutt Valley including large numbers of cars traveling to Trentham Racecourse, and the Hutt River. Another group of images relate to a holiday at the Mendip Hills Homestead in Canterbury, New Zealand with scenes of farm life, including haymaking, merino sheep, and farm buildings. During their stay in the South Island Godber also took photographs of Dunedin (including the Ross Reservoir, Otago Boys' High School, Seacliff Mental Hospital, the 1926 Dunedin Exhibition, and the Hillside Railway Workshops); Invercargill (including the Invercargill Railway Workshops); Stewart Island, Moeraki, Tuatapere, Waiau River, Oamaru and Port Chalmers. Various railway stations in Canterbury and Otago, the Burnside Iron Mills, and the Rosslyn Mills. Godber was a volunteer fireman with the Petone Fire Brigade with the album including views of the building, groups of firemen, fire engines and other fire fighting equipment, and a building in Petone damaged by fire. In his work with New Zealand Railways, mainly at the Petone Railway Workshops, he took interior photographs of various buildings, including the Machine Shop and finishing benches, the engine room, lathes, boilers, and fitting shops. He also took photographs of many of the steam engines that were built and worked on at the workshops. One scene shows a group of men watching a fight. Many images show his interest in logging railways, particularly in the Piha, Karekare, Anawhata area. Scenes of logging camps, various methods of transporting logs including bullock teams, logging trains, and dams created and then tripped to send logs down by river, and timber mills. Other topics covered in Godber's photographs are scenes at Maori marae and meeting houses, with some of the people identified; Maori carving and rafter designs; beekeeping, and gold mining." FloridaArmy (talk) 23:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
    • It's hard to choose which photos to share. Historic views areas, industries, bridges, natural features, railways and bridges, crafts. Here's a link to his photos on Misplaced Pages Commons. Many already illustrate our entries on various subjects. FloridaArmy (talk) 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
    If you really want to help him, get a couple stories published about him in newspapers. Notability here will follow. Carrite (talk) 01:23, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

    Just wanted to say

    You have created something valuable to everyone on the Internet. I'm sure you get this a lot, but thank you.
    It may sound weird, but Misplaced Pages has helped me through some tough times. We can never thank you enough for this sometimes infighting, sometimes peaceful, sometimes divided, but always united community You are the backbone of the cabal of editors thriving community that is Misplaced Pages. I wish I could give you a BarnMilkyWay but no one's come up with that, apparently. (3OpenEyes's talk page. Say hi!) | (PS: Have a good day) 00:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

    Requests for comment/Severe Problems in hewiki

    For the interested. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:58, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

    Summary: This document intends to show the problematic situation in Hebrew Misplaced Pages (hewiki), and provide evidence that it has been overtaken by a group of mostly religious and nationalist editors, who prevent others from achieving higher permissions while promoting their own allies. –Novem Linguae (talk) 22:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

    Happy new year

    Good days, Jimbo. I'd like to say that Chinese Misplaced Pages is introducing ARBCOM System currently, since Arbcom on this project, and in fact all the project is originated from the idea of yours, do you have any opinion for that? Any hints, advice or suggestions? -Lemonaka 15:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

    Scoop: Heritage Foundation plans to ‘identify and target’ Misplaced Pages editors

    That doesn't sound good. From The Forward. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

    Being discussed at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Heritage Foundation intending to "identify and target" editors. CMD (talk) 10:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
    Thanks! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
    Also discussed at Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel_articles_5/Evidence#Edit_request and Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Heritage_Foundation_planning_to_dox_Wikipedia_editors. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

    Jimbo, could I ask you please to respond to these concerns from Tryptofish?

    ... it's not just if you've edited about Israel-Palestine. It could be if you've edited anything about climate and fossil fuels, gender, immigration, vaccines, and of course, American politics. I doubt that they have the bandwidth to actually identify and harass every editor who could possibly be seen as editing information that goes against a MAGA POV, but they will likely find some easily identified targets, whom they will use to "set an example", as a way of instilling fear in our editing community. I fully expect that, in the coming months, Jimbo Wales will be hauled before a hostile and performative Congressional hearing, much in the manner of university presidents. I hope very much that he will be better prepared than Claudine Gay was.
    Yeah, I know this is grim. But I believe the first step in dealing with this is to go into it with our eyes open, to know what we are dealing with, what motivates it. And, more than harming individual editors, the real objective of Heritage et al. is to instill fear in the rest of us. If we become too fearful to revert POV edits, they win. In a very real sense, we have to keep doing what we have been doing, and continue to be a reliable resource for NPOV information. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

    Sita Bose (talk) 05:33, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    Well, I fully agree that developments in terms of arguments and actions aimed at destroying trust in knowledge (and of course our specific interest, trust in Misplaced Pages) are extremely worrisome, particularly as I agree that for many who are doing it, the motive does appears to be the undermining of civic norms and democracy. I also agree with Tryptofish in a part that you didn't quote: "In a narrow sense, it's technically true that if you "out" yourself, there's no point in anyone else doing it. But once your identity is known, you become vulnerable to all of the kinds of real-life harassment that doxed people find themselves subjected to. It doesn't matter, in that regard, how they found out your identity." That's a sad balancing act that no Wikipedian should have to face.
    As a side note, I don't think that the reliability of the Heritage Foundation as a source is particularly related to these despicable actions. Whether they should be considered a reliable source in some matters is really unrelated to whether they hate us or not.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
    Suddenly ANI going to court to get user-data seems like the model of gentlemanly behavior. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:51, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
    That's a sad balancing act that no Wikipedian should have to face. Unfortunately, the scales have been inexorably slipping out from beneath the foundation's abilities or willingness to protect its volunteers for my entire wiki-career. There's no balancing force at work. The private equity community has made gadflies out of what we used to label reliable local news media; Alphabet and Meta are actively coopting precision, privacy, and the public domain, while attempting to minimize the effectiveness of good faith actors like Internet Archive. Now suddenly en.wikipedians are facing the sort of personal threats long experienced by volunteers at ru.wiki and zh.wiki. The forces now arrayed against free information don't need to be actively coordinating in order to rapidly bring us to 2+2=5 territory. Any established editor could reasonably see Western culture has been under relentless attack for a long time. Here comes the Heritage Foundation's leaks, hot off Heritage's bangup release of Project 2025, leaking articles through partisan outlets apparently intended to make it appear (in one case) the ADL's recent reliability downgrade at RSNP was anyone else's fault but the ADL's own writings and actions. The news of such activity appears to threaten the community members directly and personally. BusterD (talk) 13:26, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
    Category: