Talk:Murabitat: Difference between revisions

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			== NPoV ==

			@] :

			In this article that you created, you wrote "(...) pray at the compound". That's not exactly what the source says.

			Would you mind reporting the ''statu quo'' that has been negociated between Jewih religious authorities and Waqf, as well as between Jordan and Israeli authorities regarding the management of the "al-Haram al-Sharif / Temple Mount". That's an important background in order to understand the situation. Of course, would some group contests this, that should reported too.

			I could not find this in the source : "funded by the northern branch of Israel’s Islamic Movement". The reference to Isrel is amazing and in any case requires a very good sources with information cross-checking.

			I wonder if the use of "Jewish extremists" and "activists" is appropriate here. Given the sources are highly poved (not to say not wp:rs) this should be contextualized at minimum.

			] (]) 06:12, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
			:Stop wasting my time. You want to add material, add it. The "northern branch of Israel’s Islamic Movement" is in the source. Did you even look? ] (]) 14:33, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

			::If you had cared about NPoV the article would talk about the context and you would have explained that some Jews claim for the Temple Mount and that some Muslism reject this claim and that this controversy is very old and is currently managed by a compromised nearly 100 years old.
			::If you are here to defend Neo-Zionism and the settlers who follow this ideology you will promote A7, Regavim, point out some Muslim movements and actions to dark them etc.
			::It is up to you to prove everybody that you are indeed ]. ] (]) 05:18, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
			:::::I didn't write it about the Israelis either and there is a link to ] where all of this info exist. I see no reason to rehearse this info. And please read the sources before claiming they don't contain info about 'northern branch...'. If you are here to connect every single settler to 'neo-zionism' doesn't it make you ]? Especially when you as far as to make a point? ] (]) 05:33, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
			::::::The "Norther..." was added after, from JP. It is not in the ToI.
			::::::And I didn't falsify any source. A7 is the advocacy media of the settlers and is indeed defending the Neo-zionist point of view.
			::::::] (]) 06:08, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
			:::::::It appears is source 'Miller' as well and your personal opinion about A7 doesn't belong here. If you cannot support it with RS, leave it out. ] (]) 06:15, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
			~:::::::As stated in the wp:rs/noticeboard, A7 is not wp:rs.
			::::::::Please, don't forget the issue of NPoV here above. You have to comply with NPoV, you alone. Else you make advocacy. Using sources from different sides but not reporting fairly the problems is just a naieve attempt of manipulation. ] (]) 06:27, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
			::::::::::Article now heavily sourced. Wording is NPOV. Removing POV tag. If there are specific, sourced aspects of the situation not presently in the article, please add them, citing them to reliable sources.] (]) 07:04, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
			::::::::::::Left the POV tag in place for now. Article is NPOV as written, but needs a little context of the sort given in todays NYTimes to provide neutral read for readers coming fresh to this complex topic. Ciao. ] (]) 07:12, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
			*:::::::::::::Added very brief context. Linked to ] for full context. Added perspective of Waqf on outlawing of Mubaritat. Feel free to add material, but since perspectives but concerns expressed by User:Pluto have been addressed, I am removing POV Tag. ], do you want to remove construction tag now, or are you continuing to work here?] (]) 08:52, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::{{re\|E.M.Gregory}} I'm removing it. I have started a section on Temple Mount about status quo. There is a lot of material about it and Pluto seems eager to learn about it but it doesn't belong here. ] (]) 09:11, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::Thank you {{re\|E.M.Gregory}}.
			::::::::::::::::.
			::::::::::::::::.
			::::::::::::::::] (]) 16:58, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

			== Suggestion: expand article to cover the Al-Aqsa clashes ==

			As far as I can determine, this group is solely notable due to its involvement in the Al-Aqsa mosque. This article will forever remain a stub if the wider clashes, which are much more serious, and more important are not presented. As far as I am aware, it is not covered anywhere on Misplaced Pages (please correct me if I'm wrong). The clashes in can also be mentioned. ] ]] 17:49, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
			:{{re\|Kingsindian}} most violent clashes reported are with young man hiding in al Aqsa. The Murabitat (from what I understand) are more passive. Not sure if that deserve an article (along with jews coming up to visit) or it can be crampted into ]. ] (]) 13:10, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
			:: {{re\|Settleman}} The violent clashes followed the banning of the group. It is not unheard of, when groups are banned as illegal, they then go underground and engage in illegal activity. And other people are inflamed by the declaring of the group illegal etc. See NYT article which discusses the clashes in the context of the outlawing, and this which claims that Murabitoun activists are staying overnight in the mosque etc. One can't simply accept these claims at face value, but the group's banning is basically only notable in the context of the Al-Aqsa clashes (which are an ongoing matter, with roots going back to the last year or so). See as well. ] ]] 14:51, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
			:::{{re\|Kingsindian}} The banning might have been the triger right now but the fact is, about a year ago there was identical round of "al Aqsa is in danger" violence. There is no doubt there are some correlation but the Murabitat have been active for years with little direct relation to the more violent riots. It is like saying the Fatah and Hamas are the same b/c Hamas revenged the death of Fatah operative. ] (]) 17:37, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

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NPoV

@Settleman :

In this article that you created, you wrote "(...) pray at the compound". That's not exactly what the source says.

Would you mind reporting the statu quo that has been negociated between Jewih religious authorities and Waqf, as well as between Jordan and Israeli authorities regarding the management of the "al-Haram al-Sharif / Temple Mount". That's an important background in order to understand the situation. Of course, would some group contests this, that should reported too.

I could not find this in the source : "funded by the northern branch of Israel’s Islamic Movement". The reference to Isrel is amazing and in any case requires a very good sources with information cross-checking.

I wonder if the use of "Jewish extremists" and "activists" is appropriate here. Given the sources are highly poved (not to say not wp:rs) this should be contextualized at minimum.

Pluto2012 (talk) 06:12, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Stop wasting my time. You want to add material, add it. The "northern branch of Israel’s Islamic Movement" is in the source. Did you even look? Settleman (talk) 14:33, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

If you had cared about NPoV the article would talk about the context and you would have explained that some Jews claim for the Temple Mount and that some Muslism reject this claim and that this controversy is very old and is currently managed by a compromised nearly 100 years old.

If you are here to defend Neo-Zionism and the settlers who follow this ideology you will promote A7, Regavim, point out some Muslim movements and actions to dark them etc.

It is up to you to prove everybody that you are indeed WP:NOTHERE. Pluto2012 (talk) 05:18, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

I didn't write it about the Israelis either and there is a link to Temple Mount where all of this info exist. I see no reason to rehearse this info. And please read the sources before claiming they don't contain info about 'northern branch...'. If you are here to connect every single settler to 'neo-zionism' doesn't it make you WP:NOTHERE? Especially when you as far as completely falsify a source to make a point? Settleman (talk) 05:33, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

The "Norther..." was added after, from JP. It is not in the ToI.

And I didn't falsify any source. A7 is the advocacy media of the settlers and is indeed defending the Neo-zionist point of view.

Pluto2012 (talk) 06:08, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

It appears is source 'Miller' as well and your personal opinion about A7 doesn't belong here. If you cannot support it with RS, leave it out. Settleman (talk) 06:15, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

~:::::::As stated in the wp:rs/noticeboard, A7 is not wp:rs.

Please, don't forget the issue of NPoV here above. You have to comply with NPoV, you alone. Else you make advocacy. Using sources from different sides but not reporting fairly the problems is just a naieve attempt of manipulation. Pluto2012 (talk) 06:27, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Article now heavily sourced. Wording is NPOV. Removing POV tag. If there are specific, sourced aspects of the situation not presently in the article, please add them, citing them to reliable sources.E.M.Gregory (talk) 07:04, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Left the POV tag in place for now. Article is NPOV as written, but needs a little context of the sort given in todays NYTimes to provide neutral read for readers coming fresh to this complex topic. Ciao. E.M.Gregory (talk) 07:12, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Added very brief context. Linked to Temple Mount for full context. Added perspective of Waqf on outlawing of Mubaritat. Feel free to add material, but since perspectives but concerns expressed by User:Pluto have been addressed, I am removing POV Tag. User:Settleman, do you want to remove construction tag now, or are you continuing to work here?E.M.Gregory (talk) 08:52, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

@E.M.Gregory: I'm removing it. I have started a section on Temple Mount about status quo. There is a lot of material about it and Pluto seems eager to learn about it but it doesn't belong here. Settleman (talk) 09:11, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Thank you @E.M.Gregory:.

About A7.

and 4.

Pluto2012 (talk) 16:58, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Suggestion: expand article to cover the Al-Aqsa clashes

As far as I can determine, this group is solely notable due to its involvement in the Al-Aqsa mosque. This article will forever remain a stub if the wider clashes, which are much more serious, and more important are not presented. As far as I am aware, it is not covered anywhere on Misplaced Pages (please correct me if I'm wrong). The clashes in July can also be mentioned. Kingsindian ♝♚ 17:49, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

@Kingsindian: most violent clashes reported are with young man hiding in al Aqsa. The Murabitat (from what I understand) are more passive. Not sure if that deserve an article (along with jews coming up to visit) or it can be crampted into Temple Mount. Settleman (talk) 13:10, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

@Settleman: The violent clashes followed the banning of the group. It is not unheard of, when groups are banned as illegal, they then go underground and engage in illegal activity. And other people are inflamed by the declaring of the group illegal etc. See this NYT article which discusses the clashes in the context of the outlawing, and this Times of Israel article which claims that Murabitoun activists are staying overnight in the mosque etc. One can't simply accept these claims at face value, but the group's banning is basically only notable in the context of the Al-Aqsa clashes (which are an ongoing matter, with roots going back to the last year or so). See this from last November as well. Kingsindian ♝♚ 14:51, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

@Kingsindian: The banning might have been the triger right now but the fact is, about a year ago there was identical round of "al Aqsa is in danger" violence. There is no doubt there are some correlation but the Murabitat have been active for years with little direct relation to the more violent riots. It is like saying the Fatah and Hamas are the same b/c Hamas revenged the death of Fatah operative. Settleman (talk) 17:37, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

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