| Revision as of 17:09, 12 November 2015 editGerda Arendt (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, File movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers381,766 edits →Give this an infobox.: history 2006 to 2015 and a suggestion← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 12:38, 4 January 2025 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,301,191 editsm Archiving 1 discussion(s) to Talk:Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart/Archive 17) (bot |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|class=B|vital=yes|living=no|listas=Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus|1= |
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== Infobox == |
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== Currently in Austria? == |
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In the lede it currently states: |
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why doesn't this page have an infobox? ] (]) 10:22, 17 July 2015 (UTC) |
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:See <span class="plainlinks"></span>. -- ] (]) 11:50, 17 July 2015 (UTC) |
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:"Born in Salzburg, then in the Holy Roman Empire and '''currently''' in Austria," |
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== Images == |
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Mozart is one of the most well known opera composers worldwide - next to Verdi and Puccini. Three of his master pieces are ranking constantly among the Top 10 (Zauberflöte, Don Giovanni, Figaro). Of course this three operas should be featured in the biography, also with pictures of real live performances. An opera only lives ''on stage'', the atmosphere and the constellation of the characters can not be described by words only. The intention of the Misplaced Pages photographers is to get access to the best productions worldwide. They have traveled to Salzburg and Edinburgh, to Oslo, Lyon and Dresden, to Graz, St. Margarethen, Bregenz and Linz, they took photographs in all major Viennese theaters and opera houses, in order to create emblematic images for all important operas. Just for Misplaced Pages. Please, don't be disrespectful toward this endeavor.--] (]) 19:20, 16 September 2015 (UTC) |
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Upcoming productions: |
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* Tosca, St. Margarethen, directed by ] |
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* Les contes de Hofmann, Bregenz Festival, directed by ] |
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* Fidelio, Salzburg Festival, directed by ] |
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* Der Rosenkavalier, Salzburg Festival, directed by ] |
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* La traviata, Musiktheater Linz, directed by ] |
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* ], Staatsoper Wien, directed by ] (coproduction with Québec City Opera Festival and Metropolitan Opera New York) |
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Isn't this a list of top directors and top productions?--] (]) 19:28, 16 September 2015 (UTC) |
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Yes "currently" in the English language means "now", "presently" etc but it also is a time clause suggesting the extra meaning of "ongoing"; hence is this site implying that Salzburg, although in Austria at the moment (right now), has a question mark over its geopolitical future? Using currently is a strange choice of word to describe a city that has been unquestionably Austrian territory for centuries. I'd use "now".] (]) 11:31, 1 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:I would hardly want to be disrespectful to this endeavor. But I do think images for Mozart operas should be chosen with care. Opera production nowadays is a hugely controversial area because of the widespread practice of hiring stage directors who run roughshod over the intentions of the composer and his librettists. Since the article is about Mozart himself, it would be sensible to pick images from productions that Mozart would likely have found recognizable or sensible, particularly with regard to costumes. These should not be hard to find. ] (]) 15:39, 17 September 2015 (UTC) |
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:Changed to "now". ] (]) 14:04, 1 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::Brief an Leopold Mozart (15. Januar 1770): |
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::„Die Deutschen sind die Besten, und ich bin stolz, ein Deutscher zu sein.“ |
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::Brief an Nannerl (24. November 1782): |
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::„Ich bin ein deutscher Musiker und stolz darauf.“ |
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::Brief an Leopold Mozart (30. Mai 1777): |
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::„Ich hoffe, dass ich durch meine Werke auch die Deutschen ehren kann.“ |
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::Brief an Gottfried van Swieten (30. Januar 1781): |
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::„Ich werde immer ein treuer Deutscher bleiben und meine Musik für unser Volk schaffen.“ |
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::Brief an seine Schwester Nannerl (10. Juli 1777): |
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::„In Deutschland zu sein, erfüllt mich mit Freude und Stolz, denn ich fühle mich als Teil dieser Kultur.“ |
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::Letter to Leopold Mozart (January 15, 1770): |
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::"The Germans are the best, and I am proud to be a German." |
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::Letter to Nannerl (November 24, 1782): |
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::"I am a German musician and proud of it." |
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::Letter to Leopold Mozart (May 30, 1777): |
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::"I hope that through my works I can also honor the Germans." |
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::Letter to Gottfried van Swieten (January 30, 1781): |
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::"I will always remain a loyal German and create my music for our people." |
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::Letter to his sister Nannerl (July 10, 1777): |
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::"Being in Germany fills me with joy and pride, for I feel like part of this culture." ] (]) 01:16, 28 October 2024 (UTC) |
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== "He was not a healthy child during his first six years. ref name="solomon 1995 39" == |
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::IMHO, da Ponte and Mozart would be very happy with this production as it was both playful and thoughtful. Unfortunately we can't ask them to decide the dispute. As it is practically impossible to convince photographers and theaters to donate pictures of previous productions to WikiCommons (trust me: I tried it for several years, unsuccessfully), we must live with what he have. The two Misplaced Pages opera photographers have had to fight for more than two years to obtain access to major opera houses. And what do they get? Criticism, cynical remarks, blame. It costs a lot of energy (and money) to (a) convince theaters to open their doors, (b) to travel to the venue, (c) to take the pictures, (d) to make the selection and find accordance with the director or the theatre, (e) to upload the pictures on WC. This is an enormous workload, given as a gift to Misplaced Pages. Then: You never know in advance if the production will be a masterpiece or not. But you have to plan in advance as the photo rehearsal takes place two to seven days prior to the opening night. Therefore the selection of the productions to be photographed is tricky. In this case there was the choice between Salzburg (directed by Bechtolf) and Dresden (directed by Erath). Read the critics, my guess is that the decision for Dresden was the better choice. By the way, Wikimedia is covering a part of the travel expenses of the two photographers. Somehow it seems a little absurd to me that the one hand is sponsoring the production and the other hand enWP is deleting the results. If you have a suggestion for photographing a specific production: Please send me your proposal. I will forward it immediately. Best regards--] (]) 23:40, 17 September 2015 (UTC) |
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I've moved this to the talk page. The problem is that it interrupts a paragraph that is about the very beginning of Mozart's life (i.e. birth date, birth order, assignment of a name). The sensible reader would ask "why are you talking about assigning him a name when he's already a toddler?" |
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:::Well, you have to concede that WP editors naturally will judge the pictures solely on how they contribute to the article, not on how difficult they were to obtain! I don't think that's being cynical. To give an example, one of the pictures evidently shows Figaro and Susanna dressed up as the Commedia dell'Arte characters Harlequin and Columbine. This is clever and cute, but it using it as an illustration to show readers what the first scene of "The Marriage of Figaro" looks like is very misleading. There is certainly no evidence that Mozart or Da Ponte wanted their hero and heroine to be portrayed in this way, nor that other stage directors are likely ever to follow this lead. |
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Also, I'm not sure the sentence is fully accurate; it's not prominent in other biographies of Mozart I've read; and certainly whatever sickness Mozart endured as a little kid did not prevent him from making huge progress musically, nor from performing (both as a dancer and a keyboard player). Also, I no longer use Solomon as a Mozart factual source, having been burned a few times from doing so. |
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:::If I could try to make a constructive suggestion, I think pictures of controversial "Regieoper" productions would work very well for the articles about the stage directors, who often are famous (or at least notorious :=) ). Also, such pictures would be fine in articles about the singers -- some of the pictures you've posted capture the singers in vivid poses and facial expressions, which is great. |
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The "Mozart as sick toddler" material, if shown to be accurate, would fit in better in a general narrative of the course of Mozart's health over his lifetime. We have a bit of this in ] but perhaps it could be an independent article or an independent section of this one. A good reference for Mozart's health history is: |
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:::What productions might fit better in illustrating the Mozart operas themselves? Well, I've seen a few that I think would work well. The Glyndebourne ''La finta giardiniera'' of a couple summers ago seemed a fairly serious effort to produce a composer-faithful performance, and I also saw a ''Don Giovanni'' in Prague last summer which was quite overtly an effort to look like what the 1787 premiere there might have looked like. Sometime ago John Eliot Gardiner, royally sick of what stage directors were doing to his opera performances, staged his own composer-faithful ''Cosi fan tutte'' in Paris, which I've seen on DVD. Surely there are many more. |
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Davies, Peter J.(1984) Mozart's Illnesses and Death: 1. The Illnesses, 1756–90. The Musical Times 125:437-442 |
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:::I hope this is helpful. ] (]) 00:35, 18 September 2015 (UTC) |
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] (]) 06:33, 10 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::::We have this discussion about ″Regietheater″ and ″faithful to the composer″ also in the German speaking countries - and the two parties are not always nice to each other. Frankly, I think there are good/great productions in both fields. In 2012, Salzburg showed two horrible Regieoper-productions ('']'', directed by Marthaler, and '']'', directed by Loy). In both cases you didn't understand the opera. In 2014 Hermanis' '']'' and in 2015 Guth's '']'' made both sense although there were transposed into the world of today. From the point of view of an encyclopedia: We should reflect reality, i.e. both sides. It would be great to have pics from al least six Cosí fan tutte productions: Salzburg (Rennert), Salzburg (Ponelle), Paris (Gardiner), Aix-en-Provence (Chereau), again Salzburg (Guth) and Madrid (Haneke). The sad reality until now is, that we do not have even one picture of any of these milestone productions. (In this case I did not go back in history as there was no proper theatre photography before the 1960s). In case of Figaro, I think that Mozart would have had fun with the commedia-del-arte-quotation - and I'm pretty sure he would have loved the playfulness and the bright colors of the production. I chose this image as it reflects two main characteristics of Mozarts opera: Figaro is an ensemble opera with many main roles. There is lot of confusion and quarreling going on. Thirdly, the Count stands in the middle between to rivaling parties. Furthermore: You see very well that it is a comedy and not a tragic story of murder and death. Regards--] (]) 09:05, 18 September 2015 (UTC) By the way: Unfortunately all productions you mentioned cannot be photographed any longer. Access to prague opera was denied till now. Suggestions can only be translated into photographs if they arrive at least four weeks prior to opening night - as the press office has to admit the photographers and travel arrangement have to be made. |
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== "(These concertos) are firm fixtures in his/the repertoire" == |
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*I agree, along with the folks on ], that the Semperopera images have no obvious place in this article or in ]. There seems to be a consensus of that view. I have removed the image as distracting (jarring, even), non-helpful, non-relevant. ] (]) 04:53, 3 October 2015 (UTC) |
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Someone changed this from "the repertoire" to "his repertoire". I don't think this is right; for most people who use this word, "his repertoire" would be mean "pieces Mozart played" and "the repertoire" means "pieces characteristically played by musicians in general". It is the second meaning that is applicable here; the sentence means that the practice of playing Mozart concertos has endured to this day. ] (]) 06:42, 10 November 2024 (UTC) |
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==Religious views of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart== |
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== The Miserere Myth == |
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Yes, its has it's place. That you brought up catholic is not the same thing as being a lifelong adherent. No ifs, ands, or buts. If you don't like his belief/views, but like his music, that your personal problem. Please do not try to create a Mozart that fits your own views or that of your own time. ] (]) 11:50, 20 September 2015 (UTC) |
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] makes clear in his 'Present State &c' ] (]) 03:24, 4 January 2025 (UTC) |
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== Infobox? == |
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What infobox would be appropriate for this article? It is need of one. |
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-- ] (]) 22:49, 5 October 2015 (UTC) |
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:As Michael Bednarek said, just a few lines further up on this same page: See <span class="plainlinks"></span>. I observe also that the "needs infobox" flag in hidden test in the Project Austria banner shell at the top of this talk page is marked "no".—] (]) 22:59, 5 October 2015 (UTC) |
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== Give this an infobox. == |
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This seems to be missing an info box. As you may see above. Give this page an infobox before it is nominated to be deleted. |
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] (]) 15:58, 12 November 2015 (UTC) |
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:Lacking an infobox is not a reason to delete a page or nominate it for deletion - see ]. ] (]) 16:04, 12 November 2015 (UTC) |
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{{Infobox person |
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| name = Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart |
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| image = Croce-Mozart-Detail.jpg |
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| alt = |
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| caption = Mozart c. 1780, by {{nowrap|]}} |
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| image_upright = 1.1 |
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| birth_name = Johannes Chrysostomus Wolfgangus Theophilus Mozart |
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| birth_place = ] |
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| birth_date = {{Birth date|1756|01|27|df=y}} |
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| death_place = ] |
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| death_date = {{Death date and age|1791|12|05|1756|01|27|df=y}} |
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| works = ] |
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| signature = Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart Signature.svg |
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}} |
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: It's missing an infobox because people disagree on this topic. A bit of history: the last one was {{diff|title=Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart|662388872|661844687|inserted in May}} and promptly reverted, before was {{diff|Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart|462871908|462719787|in 2011}}, in {{diff|Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart|378240327|378185794|2010}}, in {{diff|Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart|279066269|278861770|2009}}, again in {{diff|Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart|266745352|266511389|2009}}, in {{diff|Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart|225526676|225517227|2008}}, again in {{diff|Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart|210873692|210764716|2008}}, in {{diff|Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart|143717345|143664164|2007}}, again in {{diff|Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart|134536723|133949057|2007}}. An infobox was {{diff|Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart|128082595|127786190|reverted in May 2007}} which had been in the article for {{diff|Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart|51842651|51812788|more than a year}}. {{tl|infobox writer}} (the 2015 choice) was not appropriate, but it could be {{tl|infobox classical composer}} or {{tl|infobox person}}. Following the models of Bach and Beethoven, it could be something like this. Note that persondata, which so far listed the data of birth and death, is no longer supported, and no prominent link is in the lead that points at a neutral list of his compositions. This might be an acceptable compromise. Image and all parameters are of course open for discussion. --] (]) 17:08, 12 November 2015 (UTC) |
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Yes "currently" in the English language means "now", "presently" etc but it also is a time clause suggesting the extra meaning of "ongoing"; hence is this site implying that Salzburg, although in Austria at the moment (right now), has a question mark over its geopolitical future? Using currently is a strange choice of word to describe a city that has been unquestionably Austrian territory for centuries. I'd use "now".87.242.223.122 (talk) 11:31, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
I've moved this to the talk page. The problem is that it interrupts a paragraph that is about the very beginning of Mozart's life (i.e. birth date, birth order, assignment of a name). The sensible reader would ask "why are you talking about assigning him a name when he's already a toddler?"
Also, I'm not sure the sentence is fully accurate; it's not prominent in other biographies of Mozart I've read; and certainly whatever sickness Mozart endured as a little kid did not prevent him from making huge progress musically, nor from performing (both as a dancer and a keyboard player). Also, I no longer use Solomon as a Mozart factual source, having been burned a few times from doing so.
The "Mozart as sick toddler" material, if shown to be accurate, would fit in better in a general narrative of the course of Mozart's health over his lifetime. We have a bit of this in Death of Mozart but perhaps it could be an independent article or an independent section of this one. A good reference for Mozart's health history is:
Someone changed this from "the repertoire" to "his repertoire". I don't think this is right; for most people who use this word, "his repertoire" would be mean "pieces Mozart played" and "the repertoire" means "pieces characteristically played by musicians in general". It is the second meaning that is applicable here; the sentence means that the practice of playing Mozart concertos has endured to this day. Opus33 (talk) 06:42, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
view · edit Frequently asked questions
Q: Why does this article have an infobox?
A: Previous discussions (1, 2, 3) had mixed responses, with prior consensus against inclusion. The most recent and widely subscribed RfC in March 2023 concluded that an infobox should be added.
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