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== Ignores misuse of Precautionary Principle (Approach) biased by value judgment and vested interests == | |||
Precautionary principle is unobjective and anti-science in the sense that it encourages Kuhnian value-based or opinion-based judgments turning the matter into pure political fodder. This eschews Hume-ian objectivity and opens the field to all kinds of manipulation based on political interests, vested (financial or career) interests, etc. If I push a policy measure based on a fat tail that has never been observed in nature, therefore has never existed, this is nothing more than policy by figment of the imagination. This is all stuff of liberal idealists who think they know what is right (the truth?) for the common good but their values and judgments are not based on objective fact based determinations.] (]) 16:30, 25 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
:Thanks for your comment but this is ] for discussing the topic. If you have a suggestion for content and sources to support the content, please bring it. Thanks! ] (]) 22:46, 25 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
== Black swan and GMOs == | |||
Discussion is ongoing here ]. Let's keep this in one place, shall we? ] (]) 00:01, 30 October 2014 (UTC) | |||
== sources i have been looking at == | == sources i have been looking at == | ||
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Things have evolved a lot in the past ten years on the ground, especially between the US and EU with regard to PP/risk assessment. A lot of blending, from both sides. A lot of this article is based on 15 year old ideas. | Things have evolved a lot in the past ten years on the ground, especially between the US and EU with regard to PP/risk assessment. A lot of blending, from both sides. A lot of this article is based on 15 year old ideas. | ||
* PMID |
* {{PMID|22430837}} (review) | ||
* PMID |
* {{PMID|21332494}} (review) | ||
* PMID |
* {{PMID|20850572}} (review) | ||
* 2013 article that has some very good review parts (need to use those and avoid the [[WP:PRIMARY[[ aspects: http://www.hunton.com/files/Publication/7aeacc21-e8c1-41d6-a6be-30800f21afb6/Presentation/PublicationAttachment/bd8ef806-a952-4da6-9e7d-bc6c070d95e7/Trade_the_Precautionary_Principle_and_Post-Modern_Regulatory_Process.pdf | * 2013 article that has some very good review parts (need to use those and avoid the [[WP:PRIMARY[[ aspects: http://www.hunton.com/files/Publication/7aeacc21-e8c1-41d6-a6be-30800f21afb6/Presentation/PublicationAttachment/bd8ef806-a952-4da6-9e7d-bc6c070d95e7/Trade_the_Precautionary_Principle_and_Post-Modern_Regulatory_Process.pdf | ||
* 2013 paper - unfortunately cannot cite this but very useful http://www.hks.harvard.edu/m-rcbg/rpp/J-Wiener_Reg__Gov.pdf | * 2013 paper - unfortunately cannot cite this but very useful http://www.hks.harvard.edu/m-rcbg/rpp/J-Wiener_Reg__Gov.pdf | ||
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* 2007 http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1007404 | * 2007 http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1007404 | ||
== "Fields typically concerned by the precautionary principle are the possibility of:" == | |||
== Whitepapers not reliable sources? == | |||
I think there is some confusion here. This whitepaper is not a scientific research paper noting empirical results from a series of experiments - this I would think would need to be peer reviewed prior to publishing. What we should be discussing is about a "whitepaper" which by virtue of it being available publicly by a reliable source sufficient as a source for new ideas. I've seen whitepapers on Misplaced Pages accepted writ-large that are published by large consultancies - accepted without peer review or some equivalent. I imagine they are acceptable given the re-known/respectability of the consultancy (e.g., Accenture, Deloitte, etc). So why then isn't a whitepaper from a re-known author, mathematician, MIT professor and politician published under the auspices of NYU not considered reliable? | |||
"Fields typically concerned by the precautionary principle are the possibility of:" - what does that mean? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 01:39, 12 January 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
::When it comes to scientific fact of implementation of theory, we generally require peer-review to establish the idea has some ] in the scientific community. The source is still written to portray thinking about a scientific topic, and there are only select instances where a self-published source is acceptable or has sufficient weight for inclusion. This isn't one of those cases. ] also has some application here certain applications of the precautionary principle conflict with the scientific consensus on the safety of GMOs, and we can't give those ideas undue prominence per that guideline and ]. ] (]) 17:17, 16 December 2015 (UTC) | |||
I want to add on the notes about the precautionary principle ] (]) 11:30, 31 January 2019 (UTC) | |||
:::It is not a paper on natural science nor is it a paper on medicine, rather it is a risk management paper on the precautionary principle applicable to a myriad of domains and therefore not subject to an assessment by the scientific community by default or as a requirement. Most of the paper addresses core concepts logically and mathematically and only portion of the paper address its application, in this case, GMOs and only "an example" of its application which by the way isn't fundamentally a new thing. By your criteria any statute, regulation, or legal opinion that cites the precautionary principle against any scientific concept must be excluded, which by any reasonable measure, appears to be an attempt to censor. | |||
== disputed? == | |||
⚫ | |||
It seems to me that very few surviving scientist dispute the precautionary principle. Can I mail you a package with instructions on how to mix them to keep yourself warm. Will you just follow my instructions without taking precautions? | |||
::::First, please remember to ] your posts and sign them by using four tildes at the end of your post. Risk management is a scientific discipline, especially in the field of natural sciences as applies here. Also please refrain from edit warring the content back in. You need ] here to add content back in at this point as I've discussed on your talk page. ] (]) 01:01, 17 December 2015 (UTC) | |||
Clearly specifically when to use the precautionary principle is up to discussion but are there really that many rational people who dispute it's utility? | |||
] (]) 18:26, 19 March 2020 (UTC) | |||
:::::The consensus rule doesn't apply to attempts to censor valid content. You have failed to provide a valid reason the content I posted is inappropriate for the article. Feel free to edit the content to address your concerns. | |||
: The article is not about a common sense "precaution", which you are trying to exemplify here. The article discusses a complex and far-fetching epistemological, philosophical and legal construct and from even brief scan of the article's contents it should be clear that every single aspect of the principle is disputed. There is no single accepted definition - there are at least 14 of them, differing in how far they go, from general, common-sense recommendation to be careful (which is criticised as truism) to "all new technology is suspected until proven safe". The latter is criticised as extreme and self-excluding as you can't "prove" safety of something you can't research. Furthermore, there's no consensus on scope of applicability, legal definition, there's no consensus literally on anything related to the principle. And majority of the criticism originates specifically from the scientific community who was most severely impacted by broad bans on research in fields such as genetic engineering, which was targeted in spite of lack of any scientific evidence of danger, or even presence of evidence showing lack of danger, but still using "precaution" as a pretext. ] (]) 19:25, 19 March 2020 (UTC) | |||
:::::Vergil Den 01:16, 17 December 2015 (UTC)Vergilden <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
::::::It looks like you're overall new to the edit process at Misplaced Pages, but consensus is one of our core policies. When your edit has been rejected, you need to gain consensus for it on the talk page in order to re-add it again. You can't just keep edit warring it back in as you've done. Another core policy is ] or using reliable sources. In this case, something that is self-published is not considered reliable. ] (]) 05:30, 17 December 2015 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I agree with {{u|Vergilden}}'s . Therefore, we presently have a 2/3 consensus for the edit. However, {{replyto|Vergulden}}: please read the warning directly above mine and those placed by the same user on . Please also read this: ]. --] (]) 07:54, 17 December 2015 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Consensus isn't determined by ]. As of right now, we have a policy based argument from removal that hasn't and really cannot be dispelled for this particular type of source. ] (]) 15:14, 17 December 2015 (UTC) | |||
: | |||
Actually it is disputed. Of you apply the precautionary principal to itself - you can't use it - it forbids it's own use. The fallacy come from the reality that not doing something can also cause unforeseeable harm as well. | |||
There is an old maxim that addresses this - precautionary principal implies prediction. | |||
1. PP is not a scientific principle, it is a risk management principle and therefore content related to it does not need to be peer reviewed - it simply needs to be published with the consent of the authors. | |||
Those who have knowledge don't predict. | |||
2. PP is applicable to a number of different domains such as finance, tech, natural science, medicine, etc. If it was posted in the domain specific article, I could see why some might object. However, it is being posted under the PP topic, not the domain specific areas. | |||
Those who predict don't have knowledge | |||
⚫ | -- Lao Tzu <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 04:44, 29 November 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | ||
== Does it apply when the change is 'acting to prevent harm', or just when the change is 'acting to gain benefit'? == | |||
3. Nassim Taleb is one of the most authoritative source (some would argue, the authoritative source) on risk management which is the fundamental point of the PP. His co-authors are highly respected in their field and are publishing under the auspices of NYU. | |||
This is a 'guidelines to wear face-masks in public' issue in the UK. | |||
4. Consensus has been reached that the content should stay | |||
https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.m1435 | |||
https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1435/rr-43 | |||
"The precautionary principle is conventionally used to advise caution in the uptake of innovations with known benefits but uncertain or unmeasurable downsides.(6,7) Greenhalgh et al. take the opposite approach: that action is imperative because the risks are minimal and the potential benefits great." | |||
You keep moving the goal posts which indicates to me that you are trying to censor the content or to be a jobsworth. | |||
--] (]) 05:35, 2 May 2020 (UTC) | |||
Vergil Den 15:30, 17 December 2015 (UTC)Vergilden |
Latest revision as of 17:35, 10 February 2024
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sources i have been looking at
Things have evolved a lot in the past ten years on the ground, especially between the US and EU with regard to PP/risk assessment. A lot of blending, from both sides. A lot of this article is based on 15 year old ideas.
- PMID 22430837 (review)
- PMID 21332494 (review)
- PMID 20850572 (review)
- 2013 article that has some very good review parts (need to use those and avoid the [[WP:PRIMARY[[ aspects: http://www.hunton.com/files/Publication/7aeacc21-e8c1-41d6-a6be-30800f21afb6/Presentation/PublicationAttachment/bd8ef806-a952-4da6-9e7d-bc6c070d95e7/Trade_the_Precautionary_Principle_and_Post-Modern_Regulatory_Process.pdf
- 2013 paper - unfortunately cannot cite this but very useful http://www.hks.harvard.edu/m-rcbg/rpp/J-Wiener_Reg__Gov.pdf
- 2010 book http://books.google.com/books?id=YbmywR22OuwC&dq
- 2007 - about as old as we should go - this too is mixed secondary/primary: http://scholarship.law.wm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1083&context=wmelpr
- 2007 http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1007404
"Fields typically concerned by the precautionary principle are the possibility of:"
"Fields typically concerned by the precautionary principle are the possibility of:" - what does that mean? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.22.165.103 (talk) 01:39, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
I want to add on the notes about the precautionary principle Yiga uthman (talk) 11:30, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
disputed?
It seems to me that very few surviving scientist dispute the precautionary principle. Can I mail you a package with instructions on how to mix them to keep yourself warm. Will you just follow my instructions without taking precautions? Clearly specifically when to use the precautionary principle is up to discussion but are there really that many rational people who dispute it's utility?
Biofuel (talk) 18:26, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- The article is not about a common sense "precaution", which you are trying to exemplify here. The article discusses a complex and far-fetching epistemological, philosophical and legal construct and from even brief scan of the article's contents it should be clear that every single aspect of the principle is disputed. There is no single accepted definition - there are at least 14 of them, differing in how far they go, from general, common-sense recommendation to be careful (which is criticised as truism) to "all new technology is suspected until proven safe". The latter is criticised as extreme and self-excluding as you can't "prove" safety of something you can't research. Furthermore, there's no consensus on scope of applicability, legal definition, there's no consensus literally on anything related to the principle. And majority of the criticism originates specifically from the scientific community who was most severely impacted by broad bans on research in fields such as genetic engineering, which was targeted in spite of lack of any scientific evidence of danger, or even presence of evidence showing lack of danger, but still using "precaution" as a pretext. Cloud200 (talk) 19:25, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
Actually it is disputed. Of you apply the precautionary principal to itself - you can't use it - it forbids it's own use. The fallacy come from the reality that not doing something can also cause unforeseeable harm as well.
There is an old maxim that addresses this - precautionary principal implies prediction.
Those who have knowledge don't predict. Those who predict don't have knowledge -- Lao Tzu — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.243.106.82 (talk) 04:44, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
Does it apply when the change is 'acting to prevent harm', or just when the change is 'acting to gain benefit'?
This is a 'guidelines to wear face-masks in public' issue in the UK. https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.m1435 https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1435/rr-43
"The precautionary principle is conventionally used to advise caution in the uptake of innovations with known benefits but uncertain or unmeasurable downsides.(6,7) Greenhalgh et al. take the opposite approach: that action is imperative because the risks are minimal and the potential benefits great."
--2A02:C7F:48DA:6F00:24A2:CA3A:6293:F530 (talk) 05:35, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
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