| Revision as of 06:44, 1 April 2016 view sourceHijiri88 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users37,390 edits Another reason to shut down IP edits! Unless you fīnd proof that Davies actually played for Canada at ANY level, just shut down your computer already.← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 14:27, 11 January 2025 view source Black Kite (talk | contribs)Administrators85,253 edits →Review of an article deletion: done | ||
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| == Cross-wiki harassment and transphobia from ] == | |||
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| ], a known transphobic editor from pt.wiki, is after his actions led me to leave that wiki permanently. He has also harassed me on Wikimedia Commons. I don't know what to do anymore. I just want to edit about transgender topics in peace. This is severely impacting my mental health. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
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| :You don't seem to have notified the other editor. This is mandatory and this section may be closed if you fail to do so. Use <nowiki>{{subst:ANI-notice}}~~~~</nowiki> on that user's talk page. Additionally, you don't seem to have provided specific diffs demonstrating harassment. Please do so. --] (]) 13:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
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| ::On pt.wiki, DarwIn proposed the deletion of articles I created about transgender topics ( and ), using transphobic arguments, including misgendering and questioning the validity of transgender children. After translating these articles to en.wiki, he is , again focusing on his personal transphobic beliefs - as it shows, he doesn't even know how DYK works. He insisted multiple times trying to include his transphobic comment on that page and has just edited it again. On Commons, for extra context, DarwIn unilaterally deleted images related to these articles, despite being clearly involved in the dispute. | |||
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| ::Again, I just want to collaborate with trans topics in peace. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| |archivenow={{User:ClueBot III/ArchiveNow}} | |||
| :::We can't help you with pt.wikipedia.org or with commons, only with en.wikipedia.org. Please provide specific diffs for en.wikipedia.org. --] (]) 13:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
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| ::::Yes. However, context is important. This is harassment that began on pt.wiki, has spread to Commons, and is now here. The history has been provided, but, sure, I can provide the diffs instead. He has unilaterally and , despite this being not how DYK works. This is because he really doesn't know, as he only sporadically edits here and only came back to harass me. is explicitly transphobic and doesn't focus on the article itself at all. After his comment was reverted by me, saying that I shouldn't call it transphobia, despite it being transphobia. After being reverted again, . I asked him to , but . | |||
| |minkeepthreads= 4 | |||
| ::::I just don't want to be targeted by that editor here. I've left pt.wiki in great part for that reason. I just want to edit about transgender topics in peace here. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
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| :Looks like yet another cross-wiki troll by this user. Already , the account is now promoting their POV here, including spreading lies, hideous slurs and baseless accusations against me like "known transphobic", after two of their creations were taken to community evaluation at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for lacking notability. The user is also a known sockpuppeter, at the Portuguese Wikipédia. In any case, I'm not interested in pursuing this case in yet another project apart from the strictly needed, so do as you please.] ] 13:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| |key=d85a96a0151d501b0ad3ba6060505c0c | |||
| ::I have been blocked on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for contesting that transphobia was called "valid criticism" on ANI and on Commons for literally nothing. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:28, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| }} --><!-- | |||
| :::Questioning a women that declared her 4 year old son as trangender after he refused to play with cars and Marvel puppets and preferred what his mother calls "girl stuff" doesn't fit in any reasonable definition of transphobia, a word which whenever anyone criticizes you at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages and elsewhere. In any case, I don't think this is the place for this discussion, so this will be my last direct answer to you you'll see in this board. ] ] 13:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
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| ::::And here's explicit transphobia. It's her '''daughter''', no matter how much you hate the idea of trans children existing. The story you've told is also completely distorted. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
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| *'''Comment''' I simply don't want this editor targeting me with transphobic stuff here after he target me on pt.wiki (and left it permanently in great part for that reason) and Commons. I am considering taking medication because of these events. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:45, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Someone is proposing a community ban == | |||
| *:*'''Comment''' I would suggest Darwin review ]. If the child uses she/her pronouns we should not be referring to her with he/him pronouns. ] (]) 15:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:@] I would suggest you to recall we ate talking about a 4 year child whose social gender was chosen by their mother after the child refused to play with what she calls "boy toys", such as toy cars and Marvel puppets. If that's not enough that this kind of gender prejudice was already abhorrent and condemned even in the generation of my babyboomer parents, one of the first things we teached as LGBT activists in the 1990s was that our parents don't own us nor our sexuality or our gender. So please let's refrain from doing that kind of suggestions when what is in question is the gender identity of a 4 year old attributed by their mother. Ok? ] ] 15:29, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::@], the bottom line is that ''you don't get to question that.'' As a complete stranger to that child you have no right to do so, plus this is '''not''' the place to even enter into that discussion. How does complete strangers on the internet talking about a child's gender do them ''any'' good? This isn't the place anyway so please just follow guidelines, which have been put in place for a good reason. ] (]) 15:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::I questioned the mother, not the child. I've no idea why we are discussing this here, anyway. ] ] 15:42, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::We're here because this "questioning" appears to be bleeding into transphobic harassment. I would support an indef based on edits like this ] (]) 15:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:The story told above is completely distorted to fit the transphobic's narrative. Simon223, if you want to get the full story, read ]' page or read its sources (with the help of a translator if needed). <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 15:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::I would like to suggest we follow MOS regardless of people's personal opinion of early childhood gender expression. ] (]) 15:38, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::Rephrase that as mothers opinions on their 4 year old baby gender expression. ] ] 15:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::Darwin - I suggest you drop whatever agenda you have, treat other editors with respect, and comply with our MOS (including ]) - otherwise you will be blocked. ]] 15:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::Sure, if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so. ] ] 16:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::Just so everyone knows, the facts are being quite distorted here. It wasn't really an imposition — her daughter, did not want to play with "boy toys", even when being forced by her mom. That's why the mom said she plays with "girl toys" and everything else. The references on said articles weren't thoroughly read, apparently by everybody here. | |||
| *:*::::::Adding to this too: DarwIn, in some edits to the article in the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, added "quotes" on the word trans and some other parts of the articly, as if was his duty to judge if the girl is trans or not. Anyways, I think what happened in ptwiki stays there. | |||
| *:*::::::And I want to make clear that I'm only stating the things that happened so everyone knows. I do not support blocking him. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 16:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::Four year olds are generally not considered babies. You really need to drop this - and probably to avoid editing in the ] area.] (]) 16:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::I would suggest a '''topic ban''' is imposed. ]] 16:09, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::I would '''support''' a topic ban from ]. ] (]) 16:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::Given that much of what they've been saying is about living people I think we would need to expand this to at least cover all other BLPs until such a time as they have demonstrated that they actually understand that the BLP policy applies to non-article spaces on wiki as well as articles. Overall this seems more like NOTHERE than something which a topic ban can remedy. ] (]) 16:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::::Topic ban from GENSEX and BLP, broadly construed, is fine for me. ]] 16:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::::I do understand this Misplaced Pages rules on BLP. Isn't that not enough for you? ] ] 16:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::::Given your comments here and at DYK, you clearly do not. ]] 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::::::You seem to have missed the part when I very clearly stated there that I retired myself from that DYN debate. ] ] 16:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::@] nice try, but I don't edit on that topic, anyway. Let's calm down and enjoy the Christmas season. ] ] 16:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::This is the opposite of the attitude you need to adopt if you want to remain an editor in good standing. Remeber if you didn't edit on that topic we wouldn't be having this discussion, we're here because of edits you made in that topic area. ] (]) 16:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::::Then get your facts right, as I never edited any biography on that topic here, at least that I can recall. ] ] 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::::You fundementally misunderstand the scope of ] and the concept of topic area as well. ] (]) 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::::::Look, I'm at a family gathering and I really have nor time nor patience for this kind of endless debates, specially on culture wars topics. I've already retired from DYN yesterday but you seem to insist on pursuing this kind of Salem witch hunting here, but really, I'll not be anymore part of that. Roger and over, happy new year. ] ] 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::::::I think you may be getting different editors confused, I was not a participant at DYN. I did not pursue you to here. ] (]) 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::::::::it was a collective you. ] ] 16:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::::::::The collective you did not pursue you here either. Only the OP appears to cross over. ] (]) 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::I noticed this yesterday but intentionally didn't mention it since I felt there had already been enough nonsense. But since DarwIn is still defending their offensive comments below, I'd note that the child was 4 years old in 2019. It's now 2024 and they've evidentally seen a medical professional. If at any time they express a desire for a different gender identity we will of course respect that whatever her mother says; but at this time BLP full supports respecting a 8-9 year old and not treating her as a baby. ] (]) 22:49, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::None of this is relevant. We follow sources and ]. There is obviously no Misplaced Pages position on when someone is or is not a "baby" and should have their self-identification reproduced in their biography. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 12:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :They cannot be trusted. Above they said "I'm retiring myself from this topic" and yet has continued to post. ]] 16:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::I've continued to post where? ] ] 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :I've already walked away from it yesterday, why you're insisting on that lie? ] ] 16:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::You are continuing to post here, ergo you have not "walked away" from it, have you? ]] 16:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::@] The issue here is not whether you are right or wrong. The issue here is that you are violating a community guideline. That's it. Either you stop or you will end up getting blocked. I have ], and as a consequence I simply stay far away from those articles or discussions. You should too. -] (]) 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::How can I get out of this endless cycle, if each time you ask me to stop and I say I already stopped yesterday, you came back chastising me for having answered again? That's not fair. ] ] 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Simply post a note at the bottom of the discussion stating that given your respectful disagreement with parts of MOS:GENDERID that you will voluntarily avoid any articles or discussions where that is, or may become, an issue. -] (]) 16:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Which discussion are you talking about? Now I'm confused. Can't you be more clear? ] ] 16:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::@] This one. -] (]) 17:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::@] I've already done it, but you keep writing below it, so it's not in the bottom anymore. ] ] 17:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::@] Easiest way to defuse this is to post a '''bolded''' and outdented statement at the very bottom of the this discussion stating you understand MOSGENDERID and will avoid pages or discussions where it may become an issue, and that you will avoid as far as possible, interacting with Skyshifter. If there are other issues here, I have no comment on those. -] (]) 17:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Sure, here it goes again: "if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so" ] ] 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::That is not an appropriate statement, it has your bias/agenda throughout it. Very concerning. ]] 18:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * Heres the main point I can see RE "Cross-wiki harassment." If DarwIn claims they do not regularly edit this topic space and had not previously participated in DYK discussions how did they come to find themselves there just in time to oppose the contribution of an editor they had extensive negative interactions with on another wiki? ] (]) 16:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:that's old stuff, I already posted a note there retiring from that space yesterday. I'm really puzzled on what all this fuss is about. ] ] 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::This isn't about the transphobia, this is about the harassment (they are seperate by apparently related claims). So how did you find yourself commenting on that DYK? ] (]) 16:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I expressed my disagreement with that note, justifying with my opinion, and there's not even any misgendering issue there, AFAIK. Not sure if expressing that opinion here is forbidden or not, but in any case I've posted a note retiring from it already yesterday, so I've no idea what more do you want. ] ] 16:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::And how did you become aware that there was something to disagree with? ] (]) 16:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::precisely because we are currently in the process of evaluating the notability of that bio and association she created at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, so it's just natural that related issues on other wikis get monitored too, that's part of the process. You don't agree with that evaluation, and that's perfectly OK. To each Misplaced Pages their own stuff 🤷 ] ] 16:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::Please link the diff from portuguese wiki where the DYK for this wiki came up. ] (]) 16:59, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::it's the wikipedia articles created yesterday that we are evaluating, not any kind of DYK note. ] ] 17:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::How is this a related issue then? It sure looks like you followed this particular user around ] (]) 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::@] no, I followed the articles, as they were also created here yesterday. Is that so hard to understand? ] ] 17:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::Because of edits like this . ] (]) 17:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::answering an accusation of being a dictator after flushing away the copyviios she uploaded. What's the problem? ] ] 17:19, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::No, that diff is the undo. Thats you edit warring apparent harassment onto someone's talk page on another wiki with a kissing face as the edit summary... In that context this does look like cross wiki harassment. Do you have a better explanation? ] (]) 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::::Just answered the troll there with another, as I was on the middle of something else. Yes, I know, not the nicest thing to do, but whatever. And why are we discussing Commons here now, anyway? ] ] 17:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::::We're discussing cross wiki harassment, that makes edits on any wiki relevant to the discussion. You appear to have been harassing them on commons and then followed them here to continue the harassment because a temporary block there (which you appear to have had a hand in) prevented them from being active there. You absolutely can not do that. ] (]) 17:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::::::I ''answered'' a troll, if there was any harassment was from that account towards me, not the opposite. Please don't invert the situation. ] ] 17:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::::::Your edits on enwiki had nothing to do with trolling or other behavioral issues from that account, if your edits on enwiki were to address valid concerns informed by your experience on other wikis we would not be having this discussion. It was also you restoring your comment which they removed from their talk page, thats you trolling them and it makes their dictator claim look not like trolling but rather accurate. ] (]) 17:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::::::::I confess I've no idea why we are still having this discussion, as they were just that. But for the 50th time, these interactions have stopped long ago, and for a similar amount of time I've devotedly accepted and committed to all your rules. ] ] 18:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::::::::In my opinion we're still having this discussion because you are stonewalling, perhaps its a language barrier but you don't come off as trustworthy or engaging in good faith. ] (]) 18:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :Honestly, this is an interesting idea but I think this needs to become an Arbitration Committee issue. The community is so heavily divided on this, it’s actually ridiculous. This whole situation just is bonkers. Like why is this at ANI anymore. ] (]) 00:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{discussion moved|Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Someone is proposing a community ban}}I have moved this discussion from ANI to AN because admin user:KrakatoaKatie commented in it that "Community ban discussions belong at AN". I hope we are now in the correct place. ]<sup>]</sup> 05:25, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::By an interesting idea I meant my idea of it becoming an arbitration committee issue is an interesting proposal. ] (]) 00:23, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I believe it may help too, if Darwin will promise to avoid interacting on main space with Skyshifter. ] (]) 17:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Charlotte135's behavior == | |||
| :Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. Not that I ever interacted with her there AFAIK, anyway.] ] 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| For months, {{User|Charlotte135}} has repeatedly commented on me at the Charlotte135 talk page in inaccurate and disparaging ways. When I've pointed this out, , Charlotte135 continued, except in ways that do not mention my name; this is seen in spades in , which Charlotte135 retitled to take the focus from away from . Charlotte135 also has a tendency to follow or track editors Charlotte135 has had significant disputes with, in ways I would categorize as ]. For example, as noted and , with me, ] and ] weighing in, Charlotte135 was hounding {{User|Shootingstar88}}. And before Charlotte135 claims that it was because of ], I advise editors to look closely at that matter; Charlotte135 had started following Shootingstar88 before the WP:Copyright issues drama Charlotte135 became a part of in that case. And now Charlotte135 is following me. And by that, I mean that Charlotte135 has scoped my entire contribution history and is choosing to edit articles I am clearly involved with, as seen , , , , , , , , <Strike>and .</Strike> As is clear by inaccurate summary of my and Montanabw's editing, Charlotte135 is very aware of the type of articles I edit. Charlotte135 stated, "It seems that some editors primarily edit on topics like horses or sexual type topics and then cursory minimal edits on other types of articles to blur their POV pushing." That section shows that Charlotte135 was testing the waters when it comes to what Charlotte135 can edit. For one, the "cursory minimal edits on other types of articles" wording speaks to the way Charlotte135 edits; the vast majority of Charlotte135's edits have been to the ] areas, and related areas, on Misplaced Pages. Since Charlotte135's topic ban, Charlotte135 has been making minor editors to other articles, as if to indicate "Look everyone, I'm not a ]. I'm branching out." For two, I mainly edit sexual articles, anatomy articles, medical articles, social topics and popular culture topics. And even though I edit many things on this site, Charlotte135 is suddenly popping up at the medical, sexual or gender articles that I heavily edit, including the obscure or relatively low-traffic ones, as seen with made to the ] article, and made to the ] article. Coincidence? I think not. | |||
| :I think Darwin should avoid interacting with Skyshifter on all spaces on en.wikipedia.org. It's clear Darwin has made Skyshifter feel uncomfortable, and I don't appreciate it.]] 17:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::@] I absolutely agree with that, I'm not doing any sort of interaction with that account anymore. I'm still answering here because you keep mentioning me. ] ] 17:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Since you "absolutely agree", then I will take your comment here as acknowledging a voluntary ], broadly construed, as in effect.]] 18:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::@] yes, that's correct. ] ] 18:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * I think a one-way interaction ban between the editors would be for the best here. While I think there is some merit to a Gender and Sexuality tban, as some of Darwin's recent edits appear to be about ] in the topic area, I believe the interaction ban would solve most of the issues raised here. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 17:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:which "edits"? The 1 or 2 comments in the DYK section? ] ] 18:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::All your edits related to the subject, both here and on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 18:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::@] You're evaluating my edits on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages to punish me ''in the English Misplaced Pages?'' ] ] 19:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::When there is cross-wiki harassment, then yes, your activity on other wikis is relevant. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::@] Can you explain how my general edit history in wiki.pt is relevant in any way to an accusation of cross-wiki harassment? ] ] 23:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Would recommend that Darwin ''walk away'' from the general topic. This would avoid any need for topic bans. ] (]) 16:20, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| When Charlotte135's topic ban is brought up by me, such as in at ], where I made a point to note that Charlotte135 was continuing a past dispute soon after the topic ban expired, Charlotte135 goes off on an irrelevant and inaccurate tangent about my block log, as if to try to paint me in a bad light and put us on equal bad footing; as seen , administrator ] thankfully commented on my block log after I once again suggested that Charlotte135 actually get informed on my blocks before repeatedly commenting on them inaccurately. In that same section, I noted to Charlotte135, "''You are clearly seeking a confrontation with me any and everywhere you can get it. I will not agree to a ] unless it's a one-way interaction ban where you are not allowed to comment on me or focus on any article I heavily edit. Common sense should tell you to stay clear of me unless necessary. It's nothing but a ] attempt by you. If I revert you at any of these articles, you get your confrontation. If someone else reverts me, and I revert back, you can simply show up and invalidly support that person's revert with the excuse that you've edited the article before. You are quite easy to read. Everything you do is so transparent (predictable) to me.''" As that section shows, ] and ] are also still concerned about Charlotte135's behavior. '''Whenever Charlotte135's disruptive behavior is addressed, Charlotte135 argues that I am simply being a bully, accompanied by a gang, and that my main goal is to discredit.''' In fact, Charlotte135 still fails to see any valid reason for the topic ban; this is evident all over Charlotte135's talk page. Charlotte135 plays the "I am the victim" card. And in at the Domestic violence talk page, Charlotte135 accused me of an agenda for removing a ] piece from the lead. I am at the end of my rope with this editor. ] (]) 06:39, 20 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ;Clarification | |||
| '''Note''': I crossed out the Urolagnia article above, because even though that article was added to my watchlist because of my concern about this who eventually became , I have yet to edit that article. ] (]) 06:56, 20 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *Hello @] - and others. Please recall that my opinion was specifically over the declaration of the child gender by her mother at or before her 4th birthday, by her mother own account based on classical gender stereotypes. It's specifically about that. I've no way to know what gender the child is or will eventually be in the future, and gladly accept whatever she chooses - as I would if she was my own child. I've eventually been harsher than needed in the DYK comment because that specific situation where a minor is extensively exposed with full name, photographs, etc. by her parents on social networks, newspapers and whatelse is generally condemned in ], to the point of eventually here. Obviously Misplaced Pages has nothing to do with that when it comes to the spread of information, but in my view - obviously wrong, from the general reaction here - exposing the child in yet another place, let alone wiki.en main page, was a bit too much. | |||
| *As for misgendering, I am one of the founders and former board member of ], which after 30 years still is the main LGBT association in Portugal, though not an active member for many years for moving away from Lisbon, where it's headquartered. For more than 30 years I've been on the fight against homophobia and transphobia, not specially in Misplaced Pages, but on the streets, where it was needed in the 1990s here in Portugal, when the whole LGBT thing was just starting and most people couldn't even tell the difference between a drag queen and a trangender woman. I was beaten up, lost my 2 front teeth on homo/transphobic street fights (the first one at 18 years old, for publicly defending from booers in the audience a trangender girl which was acting at a local bar )- and whatelse. I never had even the least impulse to misgender any of the many trangender people that always have been around me, and the few situations where that may have happened were online with people that I knew for years as being one gender, and took a while to sink they are another, because online there's not the ever helping visual clue. So it's kind of disheartening to be treated like this in a strange place by people I don't know just because I expressed an (harsh, agreed) opinion defending the age of consent for children, and condemning their parents interference on that. | |||
| *The TBan is not very relevant for me, as I seldom edit here and despite the activism of my past days LGBT is not my primary interest on Misplaced Pages, but I'm considerably saddened by the misunderstandings, bad faith assumptions, false accusations that have been told here about me, though eventually the flaw is not in the whole group that has their own rules and culture, but in the newcomer which don't understand it well in all its nuances, as was my case here. | |||
| *Finally, as the misunderstandings continue, I never came here after Skyshifter, which as is public and she knows, I've always considered a good editor and helped several times with articles and what else (which is also why I felt confident to answer with a 😘 when she called me a dictator in another project, though it was obviously not the most appropriate way to answer it, and for which I apologize to Skyshifter). In this last row I wasn't even directly involved in her indefinite block in wiki.pt, despite being mentioned there. I didn't even touched the articles she created here on ] and ] or addressed she here in any way. I came here because of the DYK note, which, as said above, I thought was an exaggerated exposition for that case here on the English Misplaced Pages. As you extensively demonstrated here, it is not, and I defer to your appreciation. Despite that, after this whole situation I've not the least interest on interacting in any possible way with Skyshifter, with or without IBan. | |||
| *And that's it. Hopefully you'll excuse my verbosity, specially in such a festive day, but I felt this last clarification was needed. I also present my apologies to all those who may have felt offended by an eventual appearance of cockiness or defiance which I inadvertently sometimes transmit in my speech. I'll return here if specifically asked to, otherwise I'll leave the debate for this community. Again, stay well, and have an happy new year. ] ] 17:58, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ===Proposed Community Sanctions=== | |||
| : I'll first of all point out that Charlotte135 has edited topics related to the female reproductive system at least as early as last November, while Flyer22 Reborn accumulates hundreds of minor edits to diverse articles daily. That there is some intersection is hardly surprising. The allegedly hounding edits do not seem to be in furtherance of any dispute on those pages, with Flyer22 or anyone else. | |||
| I offered DarwIn an off ramp above and their response was to reiterate their views on a highly controversial subject and their responses to concerns about their interactions with Skyshifter have been entirely unsatisfactory. This looks a like a pretty clear case of IDHT revolving around their strong disagreement with one of our guidelines. Frankly, I came very close to just blocking them after their response to my suggestion. This discussion has already dragged on long enough. For purposes of clarity, nobody is required to agree with all of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. And yes, gender is a highly controversial subject. I have my own disagreements with parts of MOS:GENDERID. But as the old saying goes, themz the rules until they aint. Editors are free to disagree with community P&G, but are not free to ignore or flout them. It's time to settle this. | |||
| : The conflict between Charlotte135 and Flyer22 apparently began in October at ] with a content dispute that Flyer22 almost immediately personalized. I first encountered the issue at ], where it became quickly apparent that there was a simple resolution to the content dispute. I noted at the time the solution could have been easily reached had Flyer22 simply stuck to commenting on content rather than contributors. | |||
| : Rather than accepting this resolution, Flyer22 continued to policy/forum shop by trying to get support from MEDRS ]. Note especially how CFCF's opinion changes after Flyer22 tells him what to think. Subsequently CFCF began to ''edit war the policy page itself''] to make it agree with Flyer22. I don't know if Charlotte135's present accusations of canvassing can be supported, but Flyer22 and CFCF should definitely be regarded as a tag team wherever they appear. | |||
| : While my attention was elsewhere, Flyer22 brought Charlotte135 to ANI based on the insinuations that Charlotte135 was an MRA and impersonating a woman.] These are not policy-based reasons, and making these allegations was a conduct violation in itself. Astoundingly, Mark Arsten placed a 3 month topic ban on Charlotte135 rather than boomeranging as would have been appropriate. | |||
| : Flyer22's general style of interaction is to make arrogant and imperious demands, often declaring that their preferred changes are inevitable, and that their opponents are not competent to edit in certain areas. This gives the impression of attempting to intimidate editors and exert ]ership of articles. This has in the past been directed towards myself, and is certainly still on display with regard to Charlotte135. It can even be seen in Flyer22's presumptuous refusal to "agree to" a 2-way interaction ban. | |||
| : The above notwithstanding, Charlotte135 needs to drop the stick with respect to the question of symmetry or non-symmetry of genders in domestic violence. Regardless of the merits, its a point the community would like to move on from. I suggest a 2-way interaction ban and 3 month topic ban for both Charlotte135 and Flyer22. ] (]) 22:32, 20 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| '''Proposed''' DarwIn is topic banned from all pages and discussions relating to ] broadly construed and is subject to a one way IBan with user Skyshifter, also broadly construed. -] (]) 18:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::Rhoark, you were on the opposite side of ] and myself in these disputes, as should be clear to anyone who does their research on the matter. You mischaracterized things then, and you have done it again now. Case in point: Editing "hundreds of minor edits to diverse articles daily" via ] and Charlotte135 having some overlap with me in that way is one thing. Charlotte135 specifically targeting articles that I heavily edit (in a way that mirrors a tab on my contribution history), and obscure or barely-active articles that I edit, is another thing. Two, there was no ] violation. Three, CFCF and I are not as closely aligned as you make us out to be; I didn't even fully agree with CFCF and his proposals (again...doing one's research is a virtue). Four, there were no simple solutions at the Domestic violence article talk page when it came to Charlotte135's involvement; anyone is free to ; they are free to see that Charlotte135 repeatedly failed to accept the literature with ], would ramble on about editor bias, editors being so and so, and that multiple editors were frustrated with Charlotte135 because of all of this. They will see exactly what led to Charlotte135's topic ban from the article. Another editor (]) is just the latest person to note that Charlotte135 is disruptive there. So you coming here and defending Charlotte135 and acting like the proposal and consensus for the topic ban on Charlotte135 were baseless and uncalled for makes not a bit of sense. If you are going to come to WP:ANI and defend a highly disruptive editor, then at least make a better case than that. As for '''your claim''' that "''Flyer22's general style of interaction is to make arrogant and imperious demands, often declaring that their preferred changes are inevitable, and that their opponents are not competent to edit in certain areas.''", it has gone on my top ten list of '''false claims made on Misplaced Pages.''' I do not make imperious demands, unless it's telling someone to stay off my talk page or to stop making false and inaccurate claims about me, as Charlotte135 repeatedly does, or to stop editing disruptively. And I have usually only noted that my preferred changes are inevitable when interacting with Charlotte135, since my preferred changes are policy or guideline-based and Charlotte135's preferred changes usually are not, and since Charlotte135 will waste editors' time with talk of supposed bias and repeatedly make false commentary and accusations of POV-pushing for following the WP:Due weight policy, or some other policy or guideline. Furthermore, as many know, I have a very low tolerance for disruptive editors; I do not treat disruptive editors the same way that I treat productive editors (the top my user page and talk page are clear about that), and I never will. ] (]) 05:47, 21 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' -] (]) 18:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::Oh, and as for Rhoark's claim that "Subsequently CFCF began to edit war the policy page to make it agree with Flyer22," I advise editors to read that WP:ANI thread, which didn't end in any kind of sanction against CFCF or consensus that CFCF was in the wrong. CFCF was restoring the guideline to what it was before it was changed without consensus. And as a number of medical editors agreed, the guideline supported my arguments anyway. But that's another discussion. ] (]) 06:13, 21 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *:I note that Darwin has agreed above to the IBan. -] (]) 18:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' - He's already agreed to avoid that general topic area in future & Skyshifter. ''PS'' - If a t-ban is imposed? limit it to six-months. ] (]) 18:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:Why should the community accept voluntary TBAN and IBAN which can easily be reneged on when we can impose it as a community sanction and ensure that any violation is actionable? '']''<sup>]</sup> 01:08, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support topic ban and IBAN''', both broadly construed - sorry GoodDay but I do not trust this user's words, and so we need a proper sanction. ]] 18:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. Just read through the above and ''good grief''. - ] <sub>]</sub> 18:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *I said above I would support this proposal if it was brought forward, and I do. ] (]) 18:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :Why it should be a one-way iban? Skyshifter started this topic with the characterization of their opponent as "a known transphobic editor". A normal editor would be blocked just for writing this. I am not sure a iban is needed, but if it is needed it must be mutual. ] (]) 18:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::There you go again Flyer22reborn. Aggressively belittling and demeaning other editors that simply disagree with you. What utter nonsense, following you. To the contrary, you have been following me. If I was interested in following you, why did I '''suggest this'''? . As a number of editors have noted, you seem to hold a very strong POV in relation to these ] related articles as did the blocked editor shootingstar88 whom you befriended and was indefinitely blocked for extreme copyright violations and opening the project up to potential litigation by the authors of this original material they copied and pasted. IMHO you are far too personally involved in this emotional topic of domestic violence for some reason. I think it would be best for the project if you, and I, accepted Rhoark's neutral advice, and we '''both walked from this topic''' not just one of us, but '''both''' of us. I just don't care, to be honest with you, but I do believe your personal opinions on the topic and aggressive ownership of the article are preventing other fair minded editors from making neutral edits based on what the reliable sources actually say. That may then allow other editors to make changes if necessary without you and I bickering over nothing. It looks like at least 2 other editors on the talk page also disagree with you, not just me, and countless others you have scared away. Here's editor OpenFuture '''commenting''' So, what do you say? You and I can then edit other topics and stay away from each other. Sound fair?] (]) 06:57, 21 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::That's actually a fair point. -] (]) 19:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::It would be more compelling if DarwIn weren't so committed to misgendering a child out of some apparent ] impulse. ] (]) 19:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::@] You have been misjudging me - It was , actually, if it's worth anything. ] ] 19:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::The child, according to the reliable sources I have seen, uses she/her pronouns. Your changing your comments from he/him to they/them does not bring even that one comment in line with our MOS. I am not interested in whether you, in your heart of hearts, are a transphobe. I am concerned that your editing in the ] area is disruptive in a way that will likely make trans editors less comfortable working in the en.wiki project. As a result I think you should avoid editing in that topic area. Furthermore I think you should leave Skyshifter alone as you have not provided a satisfactory explanation for your participation in the DYK thread. ] (]) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::@] OK, I didn't knew the child used those pronouns when she was 4 years old, I commit to use them here if I would ever talk about that issue again (which I definitely will not, anyway). ] ] 20:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::If they weren't before they are now... ] (]) 18:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Ok, to be clear, I '''oppose''' a one-way IB. I do not find this argument convincing. ] (]) 19:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::I agree. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 12:46, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support''' this seems like a reasonable set of restrictions, I hope they can stick to it ] (]) 18:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:@] I never edited in that topic here, as far as I can remember, not is it a primary interest I have, so it certainly will not be difficult to hold, even if it comes out to me as incredibly unbased and unfair. ] ] 19:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::Your edits to DYK were within that topic area. ] (]) 19:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::@] And those were the only ones, and I immediately after being reverted. How does that configure the kind of systematic behaviour that would justify a topic ban? I really apologize, but in this moment the way I see this is a kind of Salem witch hunt, with people accusing me of all kind of slurs and abominations, even when they are in directly opposition to . You seem to be punishing me for my opinions and the way I (supposedly) think about a very particular issue (if 4 years old have self determination or not), which comes out to me as really unfair and unworthy of a project like this. ] ] 20:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::How is that in direct opposition to your stance there? Your edit summary says "forgot that English has the neutral pronoun, which is useful in these cases. fixed." which suggests that it is in line with that stance ] (]) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::@] I'm sorry, I seem to have missed your point. What is wrong with correcting the gender to a neutral pronoun in such a situation? ] ] 20:13, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::This edit might help you get the point. At this point your conduct on this page is becoming a serious behavioral issue... you can't lie, sealion, obfuscate, and misdirect endlessly without consequences. ] (]) 20:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::@] I can fix those too as I did yesterday, if you think it's important 🤷🏽♂️ ] ] 20:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::You are not supposed to edit comments after they have been responded to in that way. But by fix do you mean change to "she" or do you mean change to "they"? ] (]) 20:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::@] Change to "she", following this wikipedia rules, certainly. So if I can't fix them, what do you propose instead to mend it? ] ] 20:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::Given the sheer quantity of lies and obfuscations from you (the truth is apparently a last resort) the only fix I can see is a formal one, a topic ban and an interaction ban. Up above you so easily went from "I never edited in the topic area" to "those were the only ones" that I don't even think you understand that you were caught in a blatant lie. ] (]) 20:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::@] There was not any "lie", please stop ]. I thought you were referring to the main space only, which I believe is a fairly assumption to do, if the used word is "editing". ] ] 20:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::At best you're saying that you lack the competence on enwiki to adhere to any voluntary restrictions. This will be my last comment unless pinged by an editor other than you, my apologies that this has been an unpleasant process for you. ] (]) 20:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::Darwin has a long history of editing in ] albeit generally less controversially. . ] (]) 20:35, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::@] That's documented with the sources and all, and the proposition there was that the tupinambá was gay, not a woman. It's not even gender related. So you desperatly want something to justify a TB, bring it on. I'm fed up with what seems to be a circular and nonsense discussion on this board, where whatever I say is a lie and with bad intentions. I don't even edit here in the gender topic, but if it makes you happy, bring it on. ] ] 20:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::::DarwIn ] covers gender ''and'' sexuality. You have been saying you aren't interested in the topic area. It appears to be one of your main areas of interest on en.wiki. ] (]) 20:43, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::::@] Thanks for clarifying that. Fact is that I don't edit much here. I've occasionally added or fixed some LGBT related stuff in the past when it crossed my main interest, History, but it certainly is not a primary interest, despite being LGBT myself. ] ] 20:49, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per Bushranger. ] ] 20:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. As GoodDay noted, the problem appears to already be addressed. If the problem persists then go for a sanction. Look we let people argue their point here and it does seem like most of the support is because editors feel Darwin isn't contrite enough, not that they expect the issue to continue. Note that I'm not weighing in on any interaction bans. ] (]) 20:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Oppose''' per Springee. This entire issue could have been dropped days ago when DarwIn acknowledged he would walk away, and instead seems to have been needlessly escalated again and again and again. ] ] 20:51, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{Ping|Pppery}} days ago? I think you might have misread the time stamps. ] (]) 00:57, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' the TBAN; personally I'd have indeffed several outdents sooner, but here we are. No opinion on the IBAN. ]] <small><sup>Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!</sup></small> 23:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' Given what's happened, I think an enforceable topic ban is better than Darwin stepping away. IMO the BLP issues is far more concerning than gensex one so I'd support a BLP topic ban as well, but it seems likely a gensex one would be enough to stop Darwin feeling the continued need to express their opinions on a living person. Since Darwin is going to step away anyway and barely edits en, it should be a moot point and if it's not that's why it's enforceable. As for the iban, while I don't think Skyshifter should have described Darwin in that way when opening this thread, I think we can accept it as a one time mistake under the stress of apparently being followed and given questionable way Darwin ended up in a dispute here with someone they'd had problems with elsewhere I think a one-way iban is justified. ] (]) 23:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:@] What " continued need to express their opinions on a living person"? My single-1-single comment in the DYK? ] ] 23:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::{{replyto|DarwIn}} Demonstrating the problem. You claim you only did it once elsewhere but anyone reading this thread can see you did it here so many times ], ], ], ], ], ]. I think it represents maybe 1/3 of your comments here (whether counting comments or text). There is absolutely no reason for you to go around expressing your opinions on two different living persons to say you're going to walk away. And if you need to express your opinion on living persons to defend your actions, you clearly have no defence. ] (]) 00:22, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::So let's get this straight. You are proposing a topic ban on me because of the personal opinions on (the eventual lack of) selfdetermination of 4 year old children that I expressed here in this board, despite that my editions related to it were limited to a 1-single-1 comment on that issue on the DYK page? This is really looking like ]. I tell you, my personal positions are my personal positions, and I'll not change them to please you, even if if costs me a Topic Ban for barely mentioned them on this project a single time before this topic was opened here.] ] 00:28, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::Holding an opinion ≠ expressing an opinion. Only one of these is causing an issue. ] (]) 00:44, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::I expressed it only 1-one-1 time here almost 1 day before being recalled here to explain it, and after voluntarily saying in the same page that I would not express it again there. Now I'm being punished for explaining it here too, after being requested to do that? This is insufferable. ] ] 00:55, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::], I think at this point, further comments from you will not be helping your case. If this is insufferable (and being summoned to ANI generally is), it might help to step back from this discussion and only respond if editors ask you specific questions. When discussions get this long, often the small benefit from continuing to comment does not outweigh the cost of continued misunderstanding among editors. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> | |||
| *:::::::{{Ping|Liz}} Thank you for the wise advice, I'll be doing that.] ] 03:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::{{reply|DarwIn}} you can think whatever you like about living persons. I have a lot of views on living persons which I would never, ever express on wiki for various reasons including BLP. Also you defence is bullshit. No one ever asked you to make accusations around living persons to defend your actions. And yes it is fairly normal that editors may be sanctioned if they feel they need to do such things about living persons on ANI as part of some silly argument or defence. I recall an editor who was temporarily blocked after they felt the need to say two very very famous extremely public figure living persons (and some non living) were sex predators to prove some point at ANI. And I'm fairly sure a lot of people have said and feel those people are sex predators including some Wikipedians I'd even probably agree in at least one case, they just understand it's not something they should be expressing here. ] (]) 23:02, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::For clarity, what I mean by my last sentence is that I'm sure quite a few people would agree with the statements. I'm sure such statements have been made elsewhere probably even in opinions printed in reliable sources (I think the editor did link to some such opinions). I'm sure even quite a few Wikipedians would agree that one or more of these people are sex predators, I think I'd even agree with it in at least one case. However most of us understand that our personal views of living persons, especially highly negatives views are generally not something to be expressed on wiki except when for some reason it's important enough to the discussion that it's reasonable to say it. When you keep saying something and in the same paragraph acknowledge the English wikipedia doesn't consider your opinion relevant, then it's clear there was no reason for you to say it. You're still free to believe it just as I'm still free to believe all those things about living persons that I would never express on wiki. ] (]) 06:08, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :* '''Support''' - Darwin's replies and conduct here indicates that he simply doesn't get it. | |||
| :]] 02:52, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :* '''Oppose''' - Per GoodDay and Springee. ] (]) 05:47, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support''' TBAN per Bushranger. Darwin has already agreed to the 1-way IBAN — <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">]</span> <small>(he/him; ])</small></span> 10:56, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Given the history at pt.wiki, I think this is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. There should be no interaction between the parties, which Darwin has agreed to.] (]) 14:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' The agreed-upon IBAN takes care of the ongoing issue. While the edits related to the child were problematic, this doesn't appear to be case of significantly wider problems in this topic area, and the full scope of ] may very well be surprising to editors who don't do much in that area. I don't think there's been near enough here to no longer ]. ] (]) 15:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * <s>'''Support''' TBAN/IBAN</s> '''Weak support TBAN/Strong support IBAN''' - ] suggests that queerphobia is inherently disruptive. calling a queer activist a "troglodyte", the previous history of abuse on pt.wikipedia, and the current responses from Darwin indicate ] behavior. ] (]) 16:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::'''Note''': And yet the inaccurate statements from Charlotte135 continue above. For example, there have been no number of editors who "have noted seem to hold a very strong POV in relation to these ] related articles"; instead, what a number of editors have noted is that I help keep out severe ] violations (especially as they relate to that policy's WP:Due weight section), and correct editors who misunderstand that policy. My contribution history is also nothing like Shootingstar88's. | |||
| ::This reasoning looks like a case of punishing somebody for political and cultural views rather than behaviour.] (]) 16:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Followung editors from wiki to wiki because of transphobic beliefs is disruptive, and creepy. A boy named sue is a transphobic song by the way. ] (]) 17:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Oh dear. Do you think I should have a siteban, or would a TBAN suffice?--] (]) 18:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::If I was named after a joke about misgendering people, I'd avoid defending crosswiki culture warriors worried about misgendering people. You may just really be into Shel Silverstein. ] (]) 19:26, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::"A Boy Named Sue", made famous by Johnny Cash sixty years ago , is a transphobic "joke about misgendering people"??? Oh my god, some people need to get out in the real world more. ]] 23:58, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Thank you for your valuable input. As always, you have advanced the conversation in a helpful way EEng. ] (]) 00:05, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::No need to thank me. It's just part of the service. ]] 01:19, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::OK boomer. ] (]) 01:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::Well, you certainly put me in my place with that one. ]] 21:14, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I understand. Speaking up for the witch is a sign I too might be a witch. I'll try to be more careful in future.] (]) 20:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Misgendering BLPs is disruptive. A Johnny Cash related username is not. Suggest the IP ] - while we may disagree with Boynamedsue regarding their interpretation here they have done nothing wrong. ] (]) 21:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::No. It's stopping a disruptive editor from continuing to edit disruptively. ] (]) 17:17, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{ec}} NQP is an essay. Essentially it's an op-ed piece. It does not carry any force in the realm of ], and the views expressed there are controversial. (See the essay's talk page.). IMO words with some variation on "phobe/phobic" &c. are being routinely weaponized by people on one side of hot button cultural/political debates as part of an effort to demonize those on the other side of these debates. As such, I am inclined to view the use of such terms as a specie of WP:NPA. -] (]) 16:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::fair enough, i'll remove my vote for TBAN. | |||
| :::sidenote, I have no qualms with labeling a behavior as queerphobia. I don't think calling out discrimination or disruptive attitudes is inherently a vio of NPA. ] (]) 16:53, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::... I am indecisive.. I'll add weak support for TBAN, I still think the topic area should not have folks who are disruptive like this. ] (]) 17:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Pervasively misgendering a child based on the belief that a child cannot express a desire to transition is a form of transphobic behavior. If it was a similar comment made about a BLP on the basis of religion or skin colour ''there would be no mention of WP:NPA''. Misplaced Pages is generally good about handling racism. It is a perpetual stain upon the reputation of Misplaced Pages that it's culture ''continues'' to worry more about the feelings of people who take transphobic actions than of the victims of the same. ] (]) 17:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :* '''Oppose''' as unnecessary given the commitments already given. ]] 11:29, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{hat|1=Let's not. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC). <small>Edited to include edit conflict comment. ] (]) 15:56, 3 January 2025 (UTC)</small>}} | |||
| ::::I am assuming you haven't spent much time in places ] where religious belief and persons of faith are not infrequently and quite openly subject to ridicule. Racism is a subject upon which society has happily come to more or less full agreement. Gender remains an extremely controversial subject with one side regularly resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other. I shall refrain from further comment out of deference to WP:FORUM. -] (]) 21:25, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Fringe ideas get ridiculed at FTN regardless of whether or not they are religious... That so many fringe views are also religious is more a result of the supernatural, transcendental, and spiritual being inherently fringe than any problem with FTN. Religion which is rational and explainable isn't religion any more after all. ] (]) 21:43, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Thank you for affirming my point. -] (]) 21:59, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Your point was that "Gender remains an extremely controversial subject with one side regularly resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other." Right? Like for example the ] or is that not the side you were thinking of? ] (]) 22:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::No. I was thinking of people who regularly insult and ridicule religious belief and those who hold to it. Something which based on your comment, does not seem to be a source of concern to you. That said, this discussion is veering deep into WP:FORUM territory and I am going to move on. Have a good day. -] (]) 22:16, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I don't think I've ever seen any of those people suggest that trans people are demons, or did you mean demonize in a way other than literally saying that the other side is demonic/satan's minions? Becuase that would be highly ironic... ] (]) 22:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::I am reaching the uncomfortable conclusion that you are attempting to be deliberately offensive. And for the record, you are succeeding. Good day. -] (]) 22:27, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::You weren't aware that a cornerstone of the gender controversy was religious conservatives resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other? Because that is well documented in reliable sources. I don't think you're the one who is supposed to be offended here, you're the one saying what appear to be extremely offensive things and are being asked to clarify what you meant. ] (]) 22:35, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::{{ec}} I think a significant point here is that while we may tolerate some degree of forumish and offensive comment about gender or race or religions from editors when they are restricted to largely abstract comment or even when they reference other editors, it's far more of a problem when the editors make offensive accusations about living persons especially when these are completely unrelated to any discussion about how to cover something (noting that the editor continued to make the comment even after they had noted how the English wikipedia treats issues). So for example, if someone says a specific religious figure is delusion or lying in relation to how we treat their testimony that might barely be acceptable. When someone just comes out and says it repeatedly for no reason, that's far more of a problem. Especially if the figure is someone barely notable and not notable (as was the case here for one of the individuals each). ] (]) 22:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| {{hab}} | |||
| {{hat|1=This ''is'' affairs of other wikis. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:10, 31 December 2024 (UTC)}} | |||
| *'''Comment''' This is definitely not the ideal place to discuss the subject since the whole problem originated with pt.wiki, but since the editor came here asking for help (for the right reasons or not), I will draw attention to the case of the admin accused of transphobia. This is not the first time that DarwIn has been singled out due to his comments on the subject (he has already given several examples of this here), but there is an where the editor has already been criticized for making such comments. There, they were also celebrating Skyshifter's ban (DarwIn commented something like "as a man he was 100%, after transitioning he became unbearable" to refer to her). As much as they try not to link the group to the project, to use this chat you need to associate your Misplaced Pages credentials, so I am concerned that pt.wiki admins could be seen spreading speeches against minorities in an official space of the project, since Misplaced Pages is the target of attacks for investing in equity and diversity. In addition to this comment, the admin was also extremely rude and crude towards a ]. | |||
| :Again, this is not the ideal place to comment on these issues, but I suggest that the case be submitted to Wikimedia if any intervention or something more incisive is necessary. The local community can accuse me of anything for writing these words, but I am concerned about the escalation of editorial harassment within that space. | |||
| ::::Charlotte135, you are problematic when it comes to gender topics, and especially the domestic violence topics...period. Various editors have been clear about that. When various editors, ones not tied to ] activism, state the same thing about me when it comes to gender topics, and especially the domestic violence topics, then I will consider walking away from them. Right now, I am helping to keep the type of mess you want to add to these articles out of it. My supposed POV adheres to the literature with WP:Due weight. Your POV does not. The only true support you've had thus far is from those who are sympathetic to men's rights views or those who hold men's rights view. From here on out in this thread, I will not respond to you any further, since you cannot help but present matters inaccurately and tell falsehoods. ] (]) 07:39, 21 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :PS: The editor was mocking this discussion in the Telegram group while I was writing this. ] (]) 01:57, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::And if you keep following me, despite your asinine denials, I will present a thorough case against you with diff-links making it explicitly clear that none of these articles you are suddenly showing up at are coincidental matters. And along with that thorough case, there will indeed be a proposal. ] (]) 07:44, 21 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Came back after a month with no edits for this? It's quite clear Jardel is taking something personal with DarwIn here. Or he doesn't have anything to do at the moment. And he didn't have such great writing and narrative in his mother tongue, now is writing perfect, well written English. That gets stranger considering he's partially blocked in ptwiki for some beefing with other editors (] in portuguese)... Quite strange, to say the least. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 03:14, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::And yes, by "quite strange" I am talking about maybe ]. Nobody comes after a month without edits (that was preeceded by some other months before some 5-ish edits), to make an "accusation" based on unfounded arguments, especially after being blocked precisely for beefing and attacking other members of the community in his homewiki. Such a hypocrisy, a user banned for beefing accusating another user of attacks and using the word "transphobia" so vaguely. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 03:23, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::As I expected, the group participants started making accusations against me (that's why Eduardo G. appeared in this discussion) and wanted to insinuate that Skyshifter is writing this text, perhaps wanting to provoke some kind of retaliation later. First, I appreciate the compliments on my writing, which was 100% done by Google Translate; I think Google's engineering is to be congratulated. Second, I'm only here on this page because I noticed the links to this discussion in the Telegram group itself and decided to contribute with what I've been reading for a long time with great disgust. I didn't need to bring much, Darwin himself made a point of making abject comments in this discussion, but if you want, I can bring some screenshots of what they were talking about in the group. Third, I did go 1 month without editing here because my focus is not on en.wiki but on pt.wiki, where I make regular edits. I find it strange that you entered this discussion without refuting any of the arguments above, thinking that bringing up my tarnished "reputation" changes everything that was written by me or in the group. I believe it must be embarrassing to participate in a group where they are celebrating the sanctions that Skyshifter will suffer (thinking that place is a "private club") while at the same time you from the "public side" to the same editor, simulating virtue. In any case, my goal here is only to reinforce that there is indeed materiality in what Skyshifter said with more evidence and once again I recommend that the discussion be evaluated by the Wikimedia team knowing that attitudes that demonstrate prejudice against minorities go against the project's investments in equity, diversity and equality. ] (]) 03:52, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I will not pursue any retaliation. I'm just stating what I know of this case, and I even supported Sky when the edits were being made. People are celebrating because all of this discussion was brought to even another wiki by her. But I understand you might've written this text, and will not take the subject further. If anybody needs anything, please read the message below. Cheers. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 03:54, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::So, I don't disagree with your argument about the sanctions she's passing on the other project, unfortunately. As for "not pursue any retaliation", I don't think that's what you mean by the phrase "4 successful DBs in a row is not for everyone." directed at me. ] (]) 04:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::@] You're wrong, twice. First, it wasn't me saying that. It was NCC-1701, and my user in TG is Edu. And at no point did I agree with NCC's messages. And secondly, the "four DBs in a row" wasn't in anyway directed at you. It was directed to Bageense, who opened 4 block discussions in the last 2 or 3 days and all of them were successfull. You are distorting the messages to condone your erroneous narrative. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 04:22, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Well, if I am "distorting messages" to "tolerate" my narrative, anyone who wants to evaluate can join the group and read the messages posted there or see the pt.wiki discussion against the Projeto Mais Teoria da História na Wiki and talk to its ] to see what their opinion is on the matter. I may not be a perfect person, but what I see with great displeasure (coming from those who are "in charge of the gears") is not positive for the project. ] (]) 04:35, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Joining the group the community would then have no doubts about your intents and distortion of facts. You didn't deny the two things I said above — you know I'm right, you can't bend the facts this much. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 04:54, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| '''As a ptwiki user''' that know what's happening but talked to both sides of the discussion throughout it: This whole discussion started as a beef between Skyshifter and DarwIn. Skyshifter didn't accept some changes DarwIn made to an article "of her" (quotes because articles doesn't have owners. I respect her pronouns), and when discussing with DarwIn, called the whole Portuguese Misplaced Pages project a sewage ()/], thus being banned and the ban being endorsed on the ] <small>(in portuguese)</small>. The discussion was based on the references for the article, was solved in the ptwiki with an outburst from Sky, and that was it. | |||
| :::::As I say7 Flyer22, it is clearly you who has been following every edit I make. And just as Rhoark and so many other editors you attack, demean, threaten and belittle, I could, and should provide a detailed list of diffs whereby you have obviously followed me. You are far from neutral on these gender topics. Everyone knows this. Further you aggressively attack other editors and exhibit ownership behavior on these articles. I just decided to stand up to you, that's all. Why not just '''walk away now if you are so neutral''' and let other editors clean up yours and shootingstar88's mess? If you do, I will. I just don't care, to be honest. But remember, I actually '''suggested''' an interaction ban, two way, well before you posted here. As you carefully cherrypick your diffs to include and not include, just like your sources and editing language, that was something you did not include above. Many editors have pointed this out to you, but you don't listen and your disruptive behavior is scary to be honest. But Rhoark and so many other editors has already pointed this out.] (]) 08:02, 21 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| This whole problem was brought here for a single reason only: Beef from Skyshifter with DarwIn. A single change or a single opinion on a DYK shouldn't be reason for a TB or IBAN anywhere in the world, especially considering that it was a difference interpreting the references. I know that my statement won't change anything, as there is an apparent "consensus" on TBanning and IBANning him, though I wanted to make things clear for everyone. | |||
| ::::::::And yes, your own contribution history on these gender based articles, most of which I have not edited, is almost identical to blocked user Shootingstar88's. Absolutely, no doubt about it. If any editor wants to see an actual SPA and real POV pushing anyone should scrutinize carefully Shootingstar88's entire edit history, and you Flyer22reborn, helping them create it, and then your desperate attempts at trying to get them unblocked for their severe copyright violations that open the project up to potential litigation. Something you fail to understand. And as administrator Diannaa told you, it would take several months, and three hours a day to clean up, and you assured everyone you would do it, and actively prevented other editors from going near Shootingstar88's copyright violation mess, which still remains in these gender related articles. Yes, I do find that particularly disruptive and damaging to the project Flyer22. Litigation from authors of original work that editors copy and paste into articles, is a real and definite threat to the project Flyer22reborn. It's their original work. They own the rights. You don't seem to understand or care.] (]) 08:18, 21 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| I am totally open for questioning regarding any of my statements above, and I will supply you with any proof I have and you need. Just ping me here and if the inquiry/proofs are extremely important, please leave me a message on my ] (). It can be in English, just for me to see you need me here. Cheers. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 03:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| As someone not involved in these broils, I think I might point out a trope or habit which consistently worsens things -- in my opinion, probably intentionally and unquestionably disruptively. ] often replies to her adversary’s edits with direct address, and then repeats the name -- usually again with direct address -- later in the rebuttal, often as part of a rhetorical question. The effect is often to infuriate her interlocutor, first because it personalizes a content dispute, and second because English has a specific term for a rhetorical question posed in direct address. This is a taunt. The quality of breathless schoolyard taunting is accentuated because Charlotte135 often omits the comma required before the appositive direct address. We see all this in the paragraph above. We see it here . It seems clear that either this editor ''wants'' to exacerbate tension or that their English (or perhaps their manners) are not up to the task of managing tension in these areas. There are lots of areas on Misplaced Pages that deserve attention -- biographies of women in the sciences, botanical articles on Australian plants.] (]) 17:05, 21 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :As someone peripherally involved, and therefore targeted by Charlotte135, I have to agree with Flyer22reborn and MarkBerstein that Charlotte135 engages in ]ing, and has repeatedly engaged in tendentious editing followed by personal attacks against Flyer; Charlotte135 was topic-banned for their behavior and we are less than a week back and once again Charlotte135 is doing exactly the same thing -- inserting nonsense edits with a "men's rights" tone, claiming innocence and neutrality, then baiting opponents until they are ready to rip their hair out. This needs to be stomped on, now. I suggest at last a 60-day topic ban on Charlotte135 and if this editor fails to learn their lesson, then indef bans are appropriate. ]<sup>]</sup> 17:18, 21 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :: pinging {{u|Diannaa}}, since her name was invoked above. I'm sure her input would be clarifying. ] (]) 18:19, 21 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Montana said it very well and I am in complete agreement with her. In fact that includes the "tear your hair out" comment as I've often thought the same thing myself. Editors should not be tested to the end of their patience, as Charlotte is always so good at. ] (]) 18:26, 21 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| JardelW is a user who was banned from the Portuguese Misplaced Pages due to his detestable behavior. This individual used the same Telegram group that he is now criticizing. The editor was banned from this group due to his behavior, in which he called respected users of the community . And DarwIn is one of the administrators of the group where he is banned, so you can already imagine why he is here. Now, once again he is trying to destabilize the community by defending an editor who called the entire project a sewer and made unproven accusations against an administrator. At this point, the account is practically banned and the article that caused the discord has its deletion or merge defended by several editors. By coming here, JardelW and Skyshifter are, in a way, stating that the entire community is prejudiced. Yet another offense enters the list as proof of Jardel's destabilizing behavior. Furthermore, this user to carry out the same destabilization by contesting on meta the banning of IPs, a consensual decision among hundreds of editors. And when he was still blocked, in an attempt to intervene in the Misplaced Pages domain, where he is banned, simply because he did not agree with the deletion of an article. And this without presenting any evidence. It is clear that Jardel's objective here is to take revenge on the community, and he will be punished for it. ] (]) <!--Template:Undated--><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added 04:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| *I've reviewed Charlotte's edits and I agree with the original posting and what others have said here. Charlotte is violating the spirit and letter of ], and is following Flyer around picking fights. Sanctionable and unwise, and something that Flyer seems to attract for some reason. I am with Monatabw and will make a proposal below. ] (]) 21:23, 21 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :It is pretty clear thay the intents of Jardel here are disruptive. Your comment hopefully leaves no doubt to the community. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 04:53, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :As I said above, I am not a perfect person. I may have used foul language to address some editors in a moment of anger, but I felt vulnerable and hurt by editors I held in high regard, and I apologize for what I wrote in the past. Likewise, I do not think it is right that a social channel that is reported as "linked to Misplaced Pages" is being used as a bar where people can say whatever they want, especially when it comes to prejudiced comments against minorities. At no time did I label all of them, only one of them demonstrated that she was doing so. If I happen to receive any sanction for this discussion, and knowing that bringing issues from pt.wiki here is not ideal, I will receive it for doing the right thing, because I want something to change for the better in a project that I have dedicated so much time to contributing to. I may be prevented from editing on Misplaced Pages, but if what I bring here helps to change something, I will be happy. ] (]) 05:01, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| {{hab}} | |||
| :] - this is your second edit ever, and your account was just created today - how did you get to this ANI post? ] ] 05:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::I saw a discussion in the group and created the account to not appear as an IP. ] (]) 05:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::@] The objective of the channel is to be a more relaxed place. And it's not official, . Angry moment? Are you sorry? After your block, you attacked editors on a social network, as attested by a CheckUser: . And there are no prejudiced comments. That's a lie. Where are the links? And how much time have you devoted to the project when all you do is attack others? Enough of this nonsense. I ask that an administrator evaluate the conduct of this account. ] (]) 05:16, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::I didn't realize the discussion was closed. Sorry. ] (]) 05:18, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Supporting both IBAN and TBAN'''. Someone who actively believes in misgendering should not be allowed into this area when they have already demonstrably made another editor uncomfortable. The snarky reply to GiantSnowman does not convince me they would respond well if another editor brought up a similar concern in the future.--] ] 07:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *Can't we give this child and her mother some privacy? What is it about gender issues, as opposed to other medical or developmental issues, that seems to give everyone a right to comment? Let's just report what reliable sources say and leave it at that. ] (]) 18:38, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::If the mother had wanted privacy for her child, writing a book which makes it possible to identify her and know intimate details of her biology for the rest of her life, while documenting her transition step by step for hundreds of thousands of instagram followers, seem strange choices. I don't feel there are any privacy concerns here, that horse has long bolted, and we had nothing to do with opening the door.] (]) 09:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::BLP requires we take great care what we say about living persons regardless of the wisdom of their decisions. This is hardly the first time it's come up where both in articles and in discussions we've required editors obey BLP even if there is a lot of nonsense out there which arises in part from decisions subjects have made. Editors can do that stuff on Reddit or 4chan or wherever they want without such requirements. If editors cannot follow our BLP requirements, they need to stop editing either voluntarily or involuntarily. ] (]) 10:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I don't think BLP covers things that the subject puts into the public domain about themselves or, when we are talking about talkpages, personal opinions on the morality of things they reveal about themselves.] (]) 13:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::talkpages def are covered by BLP as per the policy page.and the policy gives wide latitude about what the subject may have redacted if they object to info, even if they had previously or somehow otherwise placed that info in public domain. | |||
| :::::concerns about privacy have to weigh against dueness but arguing the book gives dueness to try to be internet sleuths and discover and identify a child is probs not gonna pass the smell test.] (]) 13:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::The woman's book names the child, and photos of her are regularly published by the mother on instagram. There is an interview with the mother in Brazilian Marie Claire giving the child's full name and photos. I would suggest not much "internet sleuthing" is required here. Misplaced Pages, and I include Darwin in this, has (rightly) much more concern for her daughter's privacy than she does.] (]) 15:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::The mother may have decided to publicise things, but the child certainly hasn't. ] (]) 21:42, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Children cannot consent, their parents can. ] ]<sup>]</sup> 21:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I would totally agree, but that is irrelevant here, nothing Darwin did was related to revealing the child's identity. He criticised the mother in strong terms on talkpages and this is what the BLP argument comes down to.--] (]) 23:08, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::That's incorrect. He's clearly disputing the child's identity. He might feel that's justified but Misplaced Pages isn't the place for that crap. Whatever the wisdom of whatever the mother did, there's zero reason to think the child is helped in any way by an editor denying their identity. As I've said before, if at any time the child says what the mother said was wrong or otherwise indicates they have a different identity from what's been presented then we'll change our article. But until that happens, we should treat things as they are and not allow editors to question the child's identity. I'd note that DarwIn also kept talking about the child's age in a very misleading way to the extent that I eventually felt complelled point out their bullshit. I did not want to talk about the child's age here on ANI, it shouldn't relate to anything. But what can we do when DarwIn keeps uttering nonsense about the child's age? ] (]) 13:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::I don't feel disputing the validity of the process by which the mother came to the conclusion the child was trans is covered by BLP. The description she made of the process is public knowledge, if a person wants to say "she shouldn't have done it like that" then they are not making any claims about the person at all, merely about whether, in their opinion, their actions are correct.--] (]) 15:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::Ask yourself whether Misplaced Pages would even entertain this discourse if the identity was anything other than a trans one. The answer is a flat no. Darwin's interpretation of the mother's interpretation of her daughter's identity is inappropriate for the project, is disruptive and is openly antagonistic toward trans editors. I think nothing more can be gained from endlessly debating whether we should pretend there is a carve-out to BLP requirements for children within oppressed minorities. ] (]) 17:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support TBAN''', no comment on IBAN. . ] ]<sup>]</sup> 21:55, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. Editors in this topic area can and often do disagree on the underlying issues, which often helpfully ensures that all such material on Misplaced Pages follows our policies and guidelines. However, the responses to Ad Orientem's request and various replies above shows that the proposed remedies would be appropriate given the BLP issues in play here.-- ] - <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 22:28, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose any sanctions''' I’m sorry if I’m interfering in something I’m not involved with, but I’ve been watching this discussion and I think it’s needlessly toxic. What I’m seeing is a misunderstanding of some inappropriate ] on a hot-button issue sparking a dispute that turned into “DarwIn is a transphobic bully” which I don’t think is true. I think the two main parties should simply avoid each other voluntarily and the situation will quickly de-escalate. ] (]) 05:09, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support TBAN''', indifferent to IBAN. Having followed this topic for a few days, it's convinced me that a topic ban for both GENSEX and BLP is entirely appropriate in this instance. My initial scepticism passed after reading responses from the editor and realising that the understanding of BLP policy appears to be even more incomplete than I originally thought. The deceleration from the editor to avoid such topics voluntarily is irrelevant, as combined with the lack of understanding over the concept of broadly construed, commitments have already been made and broken within this discussion alone. So respectfully, I believe this ] type editing, whether it is attempting to ] or simply ] discussions, is nonetheless disruptive and uncivil at times. ] (]) 18:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' per Dronebogus. I'd say "we're better than this" if I believed it. ] (]) 19:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' ''Skyshifter'', if anything, is harassing Darwin in this instance. Darwin has agreed to an IBAN, never mind that he's expressed desires to descelate what has become the longest thread on AN or ANI as of writing. ''']]''' 22:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' This is a pretty explicit case of POV harassment. Their replies to the topic likewise do not give me faith they will adhere to a self imposed limitation. Darwin claimed to have agreed to step away before the ANI was created, but the edit history shows that Darwin continued editing the page up until an hour before Skyshifter created the ANI. Thus, there should be an actionable sanction. I fail to understand how it is Skyshifter doing the harassment at all as Cubby suggests. Darwin even called skyshifter a troglydite () to boot. ] (]) 15:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Oh my fucking god. This whole thread is nuts. I wish I could pardon my french but this is CRAZY. | |||
| :<br> | |||
| :Never in a million years would’ve I expected myself to be responding to a thread like this but I mean here I am. | |||
| :<br> | |||
| :Although Skywing’s concerns of harassment are valid especially if he’s being tracked across Misplaced Pages’s website, as far as I know, there are no guidelines that state someone can be punished for actions on another Misplaced Pages. | |||
| :<br> | |||
| :'''I support''' the notion of Darwin being topic banned from gender related articles (especially trans ones), for the simple fact that his conflict of interest with transphobia has clearly caused a disruption to the Misplaced Pages community. | |||
| :<br> | |||
| :'''I oppose''' with the IP-ban because if anything this '''SHOULD’VE''' ended a week ago when Darwin voluntarily said he would not edit those pages as well as avoid any interaction with Skywing. | |||
| :<br> ] (]) 15:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::No one has proposed an IP Ban. The Aforementioned 'IBan' is a one way interaction-ban. ] (]) 16:28, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I understand, I meant that. Apologies. I misunderstood what it stood for. I would prefer if the IBAN was two way instead of one-way. Seems hardly fair in my honest opinion when both I suppose are equally responsible and to share the blame. This is a messy situation so putting the blame on one when both are equally responsible seems hardly fair. But that's my two cents. | |||
| :::NOTE: I don't condone homophobia or queerphobia or whatever the term is (I'm not really informed enough in this situation to know what Misplaced Pages calls it so I'm adding both just in case) so please don't take it as me defending either side as that is NOT my intent. | |||
| :::Cheers, <br> ] (]) 01:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::This reply reminded me of the essay ]. ] (]) 01:15, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Lol. It is accurate. That literally is what it is I suppose lol. ] (]) 01:19, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' any sanctions against Darwin per Dronebogus. I wish we were better than this, but like TBUA, I don't actually believe that we are. ] (]) 20:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' both TBAN and IBAN. Their behaviour at DYK might have been mitigated if they had taken responsibility here instead of doubling down. A TBAN and IBAN will reduce disruption. '']''<sup>]</sup> 01:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:After I left my comment above and after providing Darwin with a CTOP notice they commented at ] accusing me of coming to their talk page to "{{tq|further troll me with this nonsense warning}}". '']''<sup>]</sup> 01:39, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' both. I'm baffled that some people above are saying "well, they agreed to stop voluntarily" - did they not read the massive post Darwin made above? It amounts to an extended "I'm sorry that you were offended." Trusting that someone will avoid the same mistakes in the future on their own requires that they understand and admit to those mistakes, which is obviously not the case here; how can we trust that an editor will abide by a self-imposed restriction when they won't even meaningfully acknowledge the errors that made that restriction necessary? Therefore, sanctions are necessary. --] (]) 03:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' both. To make sure I haven't lost my goddamn mind, I read this discussion '''''twice'''''. I personally believe Darwin is in the wrong here. His behavior on enwiki violates both GENSEX and BLP sanctions (), and he doubled down when he had the chance to defend himself (] and comments above). Even if we play devil's advocate and assume Darwin's claims about Sky being a troll/vandal and sockmaster (which is a heavy accusation to make) on ptwiki are true, her work on enwiki has shown that she's changed for the better. This is coming from a person who has interacted with Sky a couple of times (], ], ]); she is an amazing editor on here. For the sake of everyone involved and to avoid another mess like this, the sanctions above should be enforced. 💽 ] 💽 🌹 ⚧ <sup>(''']''')</sup> 08:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' - the doubling (and tripling) down that this user engaged in above has convinced me that Misplaced Pages would be better off if {{they|DarwIn}} did not engage in the relevant topic areas. ] <small>(he/him · ] · ])</small> 17:31, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' both IBAN and TBAN. With all due respect to Dronebogus, there is no way this can be chalked up as just an OR misunderstanding when Darwin has gone out of his way to repeately misgender the individual in question while throwing personal attacks at Sky. Regardless of any issue at another wiki, the behavior ''here'' is unacceptable per our rules and guidelines. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:54, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support TBAN and IBAN''': Really blatant transphobia. In case it gets lost in the weeds, Darwin's original comment sparking this whole thing was not just blatantly offensive but full of bullshit: {{tq|'''According to the sources in the article''', after forcing the child she and her husband wanted to have as a boy to "behave like a boy" for 4 years, forcing him to play with cars, football and Marvel heros and even listen to heavy metal at 2-3 years old, and chasticizing him for liking "girl stuff" and throwing away all his "girl like" toys, until the poor child was proposing to die and reborn as a girl so he could play with that stuff, this openly conservative women finally gave up imposing such "boy stuff" on him and at 4 years old decided he was a girl instead, thrusting that identity on the child since then and eventually forming that NGO to "spread the word". I don't know this section very well, so maybe such troglodyte and incredibly prejudiced display of behaviour is something so bizarre it would be worth to have here, but I have to disagree.}} | |||
| ** 1) {{tq|the poor child was proposing to die and reborn as a girl so could play with that stuff}} - no source ever said this kid said that "so she could play with that stuff". The sources just say she persistently wished she'd been born a girl and said as much repeatedly. Darwin's offensive speculation as to why is not supported by any sources. Here's a quote from her mother about this nonsense: {{tq|A boy who likes to play doll is not a trans girl. But a boy who besides liking to play doll, has desire to be the doll, be a girl, dress and have the look of the doll, then we are talking about a child who may have a gender issue.}} | |||
| ** No source in the article says her mom "decided was a girl, thrusting that identity on the child since then" - On her 4th birthday, she told her {{tq|My love, from today you wear whatever clothes you want, play with whatever you want and can '''be whoever you want'''}} - the mom said she'd stop pressuring her daughter to be a boy and that she could be who she wanted, and her daughter decided. | |||
| ** She is now 9 years old, almost 10, and happily trans. So, this is not even a case of insisting a 4-yr old can't tell they're trans, it's insisting that, after 5 years of being happily herself, it must have been forced on her. | |||
| : The only {{tq|troglodyte and incredibly prejudiced display of behaviour}} is expending this much energy attacking a fucking 9 year old and claiming her mother made her trans. I'm ashamed that PT wikipedia allowed him to do this there, and sanctioned Skyshifter for calling him on such blatant transphobia. We should have no tolerance for this bullshit whatsoever. ] (]) 22:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Given that this involves cross-wiki behaviour, does anyone know if this is something which is actionable in the universal code of conduct? '']''<sup>]</sup> 22:55, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' formal TBAN, indifferent to IBAN ] (]) 21:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' both TBAN and IBAN. ]. ] (]) 23:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * I see no evidence that any sanctions are necessary to stop disruption; indeed to the extent DarwIn was disruptive (and I am not convinced they were the problematic party), they have stopped, out of what appears to me to be a genuine understanding of how to avoid the locus of disruption. --] (]) 23:22, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. I read through this entire epic saga and left with the impression that they didn't really seem to get that the BLP and MOS issues aren't something they can just shrug their shoulders at. --] (]) 12:58, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === ] taking matters from another Misplaced Pages to seek revenge. === | |||
| ===Proposal=== | |||
| {{hat|1=100% affairs of other wikis. - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| I'll take a step past what Montanabw proposes and simply propose a TBAN for Charlotte135 under ] with standard appeal available after one year. ] (]) 21:28, 21 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|result=This entire subsection is about Eduardo Gottert casting aspersions on Skyshifter and providing no diffs or evidence of this "revenge" except for statements about what is going on on another language Misplaced Pages which have no bearing on what occurs here. I'm closing this now before this ]s on to Eduardo Gottert and editors start proposing a block for personal attacks. Baseless counter attacks are generally dismissed at the English Misplaced Pages ANI. Please do not reopen this section. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 09:00, 31 December 2024 (UTC)}} | |||
| On the 29th of December, ] started an AN/I based on a claim that ], a sysop at ptwiki, was cross-wiki harrassing her. To make up those claims, she used as a single proof, of him editing on a DYK nomination . AFAIK, DYK nominations are open for debate. | |||
| She accused him of transphobia, a very harsh word, over some 5 edits on the same page, and all the other arguments in her accusation were from the ptwiki with absolutely no relation to the English Misplaced Pages, and she tried to "force" that it was a cross-wiki harrassment, when it wasn't. The sole reason for that AN/I is a beef from Skyshifter with DarwIn. | |||
| :Apart from Rhoark's neutral, objective and detailed comments above, talking about Flyer22reborn's disruptive and aggressive behavior, all we have is literally the same set of friends of Flyer22, Gandydancer, Montabw and Jytdog falsely accusing me of following their friend Flyer22?? With no evidence. And even though, and well before Flyer22 posted here, '''I was the one who suggested''' a 2 way interaction ban, to stop Flyer22 and her friends following, harassing and bullying me. | |||
| But all of this happened only, and just because of her banishment for the portuguese wiki. She is the cross-wiki harrasser in this situation, as she came to a project where DarwIn hasn't got nearly as many edits as his home-wiki and most of his edits are on discussions or category/commons related, to try blocking him and thus tarnish his block log. | |||
| :Obviously administrator Diannaa would be the only one to look at this please, and adjudicate and dare I say, have the courage as an administrator, to actually place sanctions on Flyer22reborn as well. I would respect their decision. However otherwise this is just like a gang at school bullying an individual for standing up to them, like Rhoark and others have tried to do, but got beaten down by Flyer22reborn's unrelenting aggression and fear tactics on Misplaced Pages.] (]) 22:46, 21 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| This is all for revenge of some articles that are being debated and will be either deleted or merged with other articles, and especially over her permanent block on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, after calling the whole platform a sewage ( and in ]), ] over other users and using ] and ] to revert back the articles (one of her meats is currently being blocked from ptwiki too, see it ], with all the proofs). The ] taking place at the moment has 10 administrator votes in favour of the block, and absolutely no contrary opinion whatsoever. | |||
| ::I also note that while Flyer22reborn and I are vacant from the ] article, other editors are actually able to edit the article in the spirit of things. I hope this continues. However I fear that if Flyer22reborn were to be allowed to continue their editing at that article, they will again '''scare off''' other good faith editors trying to add content that is actually based on what the reliable sources say. Looking at the edit history on these articles Flyer22 seems to have engaged in many conflicts with many different opposing editors. And many editors have noted Flyer22reborn's lack of neutrality and POV pushing. Can I ask Diannaa to please consider a fair, reasonable and '''equal''' sanction here, based on Rhoark's neutral and detailed comments above . I would agree with Rhoark's solution of "I suggest a 2-way interaction ban and 3 month topic ban for both Charlotte135 and Flyer22." The key word is '''both'''.] (]) 23:06, 21 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::I also notice that John from Idegon has pinged Diannaa, and said "her input would be clarifying." I think this is appropriate as I don't see how friend's of Flyer22reborn, (administrators or editors) could possibly make any neutral and fair decisions on this matter.] (]) 23:30, 21 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Despite some not-so-good arguments from DarwIn in the AN/I above, it is more than clear that the reason for the opening of the said AN/I was '''personal''' and for '''revenge'''. I'm open to any questions regarding this topic, as there is plenty of evidence to sustain my claims. All of this that she's doing would clearly fall under ], here called ] I think, and ]/], and in the AN/I above she's commiting ], repeating the eye-catching word "transphobia" over and over, without sustaining her argument accordingly, seeking to block a sysop at other 3 projects and rollbacker here, with the sole objective of tarnishing his block log, just for revenge and self-fullfillment. | |||
| ::::A question to administrators please? Is contacting other editors/friends off or on Misplaced Pages a form of ]? I have been reading the policy for a few days and I'd appreciate clarification. I must hastily add, so not again falsely accused of following Flyer22reborn, because once again they are over there at ], fighting it out with another editor. Flyer22reborn is once again over there now, demeaning, belittling and mocking another editor. My question though stands as when I brought it up before with Flyer22 and her friends, they called it ridiculous, and demeaned my understanding of the policy. Just like they Flyer22reborn seems to be doing again at ]. I'd appreciate a neutral administrator to explain canvassing to me, especially here at ANI?] (]) 02:05, 22 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 05:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * To all that, i will just say, wow. ] (]) 03:09, 22 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :{{replyto|Eduardo_Gottert}} You need to provide evidence when opening an ANI thread, not on request. ] (]) 05:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::Yes, Wow. However Jytdog, you are '''very often called upon''' or pinged, to partake and support Flyer22reborn's point of view. It happended in a few conversations I've had in the past with Flyer22. And I'm sure if I did go through your edit history, which I certainly can't be bothered doing, there would be other instances over the years. Once again, boom, here you all are, right on cue. Is pinging in this way, '''for support,''' esp here at ANI a form of ]? Probably best you don't answer. Same discussion is happening over at ]. When good faith editors like me and others wonder if this is allowed or how much '''weight''', editors opinions who are pinged, off, or on, Misplaced Pages, it is a valid question Jytdog, despite your sarcastic "Wow," in an attempt to discredit, demean and belittle, my serious question. I realize I don't have your experience here, so please excuse my ignorance.] (]) 03:19, 22 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::'@] The evidences are above. I said if you need any '''further''' evidence, you may ask. All of the necessary evidence are on the request. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:04, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Where's the evidence? What we know is that DarwIn came here despite little involvement and made a highly offensive statement that can reasonably be characterised as transphobic. While I don't feel Sky Shifter should have described it so, better to let others decide, it was entirely reasonable for Sky Shifter to call for action against DarwIn for it. What is your evidence that they did it for revenge instead of for the fact that after a disagreement with DarwIn in a different wiki, DarwIn suddenly appeared in this wiki, one they themselves agree they barely edit, to make a highly offensive statement that Sky Shifter reasonably felt was transphobic. After doing so, they then appeared on ANI to make similar highly offensive statements were they made offensive accusations against living based on their own opinion. ] (]) 06:13, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Honestly, the argument is pretty clear above. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:14, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::If you agree you're wrong then please withdraw this ANI. ] (]) 06:20, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I did not agree in any place that I am wrong. I just stated that the evidence is pretty clear above, with all the block discussions and diffs needed for understanding the problem. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:23, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Your statement was very unclear. You said "the argument" which I interpreted to mean my argument. If you're still claiming your argument is clear, then please explain how it can be when part of your argument is it was unfair for Sky Shifter to go around saying "transphobia" when many of us agree that even if it was unnecessary, it was not unsupported given the comments DarwIn was making do seem to be transphobic. ] (]) 06:29, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::As we were talking about my evidence, I think saying "the argument" clearly refer to me. And as to the reason for the opening of this ANI, it's because the revenge seeking of Skyshifter. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:33, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I wouldn't say it doesn't considering as I said, one of the reasons your argument was flawed, but you didn't address that in any way. Nothing you've said above or since has explained why you're claiming Sky Shifter using the word "transphobic" is evidence for "revenge" when it's a reasonable characterisation of what DarwIn said. ] (]) 06:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::{{ec}} I would add it's very unclear what you thinking you're adding that wasn't already considered above. In the above thread a 1 way iban on DarwIn seems to be getting serious consideration. A two way iban seems to have been rejected based on the assessment that whatever the wrongs with Sky Shifter's approach, it wasn't serious enough to warrant an iban. The fact that Sky Shifter was in a dispute with DarwIn on other wikis, and DarwIn was involved in their blocked is likewise not a secret, part of it was stated by Sky Shifter when opening the thread and the rest was stated by DarwIn. The sock allegation likewise. So what do you think you're adding to the discussion that wasn't already considered and seemingly rejected by the community above? ] (]) 06:40, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :It is time for a ]. You already said all of that above. You seem to have been canvassed here from a discussion outside of this wiki. Go back there and let them know cross wiki harassment will get you blocked here. ] (]) 05:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::I added more evidence and context. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::You simply cast aspersions as part of a cross wiki harassment campaign against someone over transgender related issues. You are not here to build an encyclopedia. ] (]) 06:25, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Your statement doesn't even make sense. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:26, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::We can add ] to the reasons you are blocked then. ] (]) 06:28, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Am I? And where am I in violation of ]? <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:30, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I used plain English and you said you couldn't comprehend it. ] (]) 06:41, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :I thought it was pretty well determined in that prior ANI thread that DarwIn's edits and statements absolutely were transphobic and bigoted. ]]<sup>]</sup> 06:07, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::I'm grateful for the good work that Flyer is doing and I hate to think what some of our articles would look like if she had not stepped in. I support Jytdog's suggestion re a ban. ] (]) 03:40, 22 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::The reason for the AN/I opens is still the same, revenge. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:15, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::I'm sure you are grateful Gandydancer but I'm pretty sure the project will survive, and other good faith, neutral editors, were allowed to got on with the job based on what the reliable sources actually say, in these emotional topics, if Rhoark's sensible, fair and workable solution, of a 2-way interaction ban and topic ban for '''both''' me and your close friend Flyer22 was applied.] (]) 04:45, 22 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *I've read many of the posts on the Portuguese wiki, and it is pretty clear that the Skyshifter's complaint above is a deliberate expansion of drama from there. The Portugese wiki is not Uganda, people do not get banned there for being Trans, and former admins don't get banned without causing a lot of disruption. It is clear these two users really strongly dislike each other and need to stop interacting in any way.--] (]) 06:59, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:People obviously doesn't get banned for being trans. She was sysop there, commited some errors, but stayed there even after 5 months of being on estrogen. And the community knew it. What caused her block there was calling the project a sewage and then outbreaking and attacking other users. I suggest they get a two-way IBAN, at least, not the one-way as proposed on the other AN/I. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 07:33, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :I would add that unless I'm missing something, the block discussion on the Portugese Misplaced Pages seems to have been started about 30 minutes before the ANI thread . It has no contributions by DarwIn . It is theoretically possible I guess it somehow factored into the motivation of Skyshifter opening the ANI thread, but this seems extremely unlikely. There's a good chance Skyshifter wasn't even aware of it when opening the thread. In other words, there's no reason to think Skyshifter was even aware they were likely going to be permanently blocked from pt at the time of opening the thread although they did say they weren't going to return. ] (]) 07:00, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{U|Diannaa}} Can I ask administrator Diannaa to please consider a fair, reasonable and '''equal''' sanction here, based on Rhoark's neutral and detailed comments above . I would agree with Rhoark's solution of "I suggest a 2-way interaction ban and 3 month topic ban for both Charlotte135 and Flyer22." The key word is '''both'''.] (]) 23:06, 21 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::She opened an NI, ptwiki equivalent of AN/I against DarwIn with crazy arguments. You can see it ]. It was prompty closed, and she was very well aware of the consequences she would face, and of the opening of the block discussion, and clearly opened the AN/I because of that reason. The block discussion started at 1130 UTC, and the AN/I was posted at 1300, at a time that Skyshifter had already taken notice of the discussion, as you can see . <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 07:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *This is ''very blatantly'' a tit-for-tat. As mentioned above there is the distinct smell of fishiness about it, and {{tqq|as she came to a project where DarwIn hasn't got nearly as many edits as his home-wiki and most of his edits are on discussions or category/commons related, to try blocking him and thus tarnish his block log}} - yes, the editor who has ''three FAs'' on en.wiki "came to this project" to do this. Suggest this be promptly closed as I hear a ] inbound. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:09, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *A two-way interaction ban punishes the victim equally with the bully and is inappropriate; here it is crystal clear that Charlotte135 is the primary offender. I concur with {{u|Jytdog}} that perhaps admins could consider a TBAN for Charlotte135 under ]. We have a pattern of hounding and vicious attacks on multiple people, gaming the system and manipulating what has actually been said and done across multiple articles. This editor needs a different sandbox in which to play. ]<sup>]</sup> 06:18, 22 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *:I am not saying she isn't an avid used of English wiki. I just stated that she took ptwiki matters here for revenge and self-fullfillment. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 07:31, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::If you aren't asking for any sanctions against Skyshifter, then why did you open this sub-section, just to sling some mud at her? Give it a rest already, you're just creating more drama than is necessary.]] 08:34, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I think that the background of this dispute is very relevant. Obviously, neither Skyshifter or Darwin should face any repercussions here for behaviour on pt.wiki, but it isn't possible to understand what is happening here without discussing what happened there. For me, having read what happened over there is the main reason I wouldn't yet TBAN Darwin, and would call for a two-way rather than one way interaction ban.--] (]) 08:50, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| {{hab}} | |||
| ==Incivility and ABF in contentious topics== | |||
| ::Save the further abuse and scary talk Montanabw. It is very clear on my talk page ] under the '''Questions & Answers header''' that this was going to happen again, and me be ganged up on. Please don't be so rude and dismissive of Rhoark's neutral and detailed comments above . | |||
| ]'s uncivil comments and assuming bad faith on multiple contentious talk pages is not necessarily egregious but I suppose it ''is'' problematic and chronic, consistent and ongoing. I would appreciate some assistance. Here are some diffs from the past few days: | |||
| ::And why would I have suggested an interaction ban myself before Flyer22reborn posted here, if I was the bully. It is very clear the same old gang members or ] are at it again. I knew this would happen though. That's why I tried to get advice from an actual administrator, Diannaa prior to being set up, baited and then dragged over here. This discussion on my talk page '''is here''' and '''my reply''' to administrator Diannaa is here . My only mistake was to take the old tag team's bait and then be dragged back in so Flyer22reborn could post it here and the rest of the tag team come in on cue, and comment. Flyer22reborn's aggressive ownership of these articles needs to be stopped and Rhoark's solution of a "2-way interaction ban and 3 month topic ban for '''both''' Charlotte135 and Flyer22." But as I said, '''both''' is the only fair solution and Diannaa is the best person to adjudicate, not you Montanabw. ] (]) 07:29, 22 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::While some admins adjudicate disputes, I am not one of them. Dispute resolution is not something I am good at. Sorry, — ] (]) 19:01, 22 March 2016 (UTC)<br> | |||
| :::The problem with interaction bans is that they can sometimes increase tension between editors. Some editors become vigilant about enforcing an interaction ban and viewing crossing paths with the other editor as harassment and then we are back at ANI, often on a regular basis as an editor seeks sanctions for violations of an I-ban. Admins want to defuse conflict, not take measures that increase it. | |||
| :::It would be best if you two would voluntarily keep out of each other's way. These reappearances at ANI are not good for you, Charlotte135 or for Flyer22reborn. I would think since you are adults you could find a way to resolve this dispute without having to have admins imposing topic bans or blocks. You can see, by the fact that no admins have jumped into the discussion that there isn't a strong desire to impose sanctions on either of you. But that can change if you can't ]. <font face="Papyrus" size="3" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 21:29, 22 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::] while i hear that, the evidence here is very clear that Charlotte135 is pursuing Flyer in a very harass-y way. Flyer gets these men's rights activists who stick to her and do hound her, and "Charlotte135" is the most recent edition. This behavior is not OK. It is part of what makes WP a nightmare for some people. I really believe that a TBAN under the Gamergate DS is the way to diffuse tension here. ] (]) 23:03, 22 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Ok. So it's a new day. But still, the men's rights stuff is re-hashed, once again. Whoever you are directing that at this time Jytdog (and it seems at me I really, really, really think you and others should drop it. It is sounding pretty childish I have to say and I'm sure there are many editors here who would agree. This is something Diannaa and I have discussed and Diannaa gave me excellent advice, which I should have applied. That is, don't take the bait, and react to such attacks. I am a feminist Jytdog, for the record, and do actually identify as a feminist, but really who cares? Does that matter here? What I see by this mens rights nonsense that you, Gandydancer, Montabw, Flyer22reborn and a few others throw at other editors is bias and uncivil behavior. Nothing more and nothing less. I also wonder why it has been allowed to continue. It's offensive and disruptive to the project and goes against policy. Unfortunately it seems to have been a pattern over many years on Misplaced Pages talk pages I have noticed, and I actually think it needs to be stamped out permanently. I'm sure that other editors are adult enough to handle any biased editing, from any editor. However accusing people of being mens rights activists, in a desperate attempt to discredit them, should end right now. Please. Liz, I am an adult, so I can ] if Flyer22reborn can.] (]) 00:38, 23 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::That would be great Charlott135, if you steered ''away'' from the topics where Flyer edits. You are the one who steered into them. It is clear as day. You can absolutely make all this go away by just indeed walking away and stop pursuing her. If you agree to do that, this thread could close right now. ] (]) 01:09, 23 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Disparaging another editor's intellect and reasoning skills. | |||
| You have avoided my genuine request to please drop the men's rights stuff Jytdog. At least with me. I really have had enough of it and consider it entirely unjustified, and a personal attack. I really would like you and others to stop that, if that's okay with you and your friends. And I have not "pursued" Flyer22reborn, contrary to what you say. However I have engaged in long winded mutual discussions and conflicts with Flyer22, which I am willing to walk away from. I will also try and avoid Flyer22reborn, wherever I can from here on. For my sanity, if nothing else. By you ''saying'' I have pursued or harassed her, does not make it true. And I think Liz was actually directing her advice to stop our bickering and conflict on the few occasions we do come into contact, not the false allegations, with no evidence, you are posting here to discredit me. And for the record my recent '''single edit''' to the ] article, two or three other independent editors agreed with. Flyer22reborn deleted that sentence right before my topic ban expired, because we had discussed it at length in the past, and she knew it would provoke a reaction I'm sure (bait). I wasn't going to comment (take the bait), but I did, stupidly, and doing so fell right into her trap, and we all ended up here. Even that, '''I've let go of'''. | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Stephanie_Seneff&diff=prev&oldid=1266584883 | |||
| The problem here is that Flyer22reborn seems to have edited, to some degree, every single possible sexual topic on Misplaced Pages. And I really mean that, without exaggeration. It's quite incredible. That's okay, but are you, or anyone else actually saying I cannot edit any of those hundreds of articles? I asked this question of administrators Diannaa and Mark Arsten a few weeks ago and here was '''Mark's response''' . Rhoark's neutral and detailed comments seen '''here''' at least provided some evidence as to Flyer22reborn's behavior, whereas no evidence has been provided to back up your accusations. My point again is yes Liz, I can definitely ] if Flyer22reborn can, and have already taken the lead. I won't accept this one sided blame you and your friends are trying to stitch me up with again Jytdog, that's all. There is another solution here too. Let's all be adults here and work with me and be civil toward me if we cross paths. And I will pay you the same respect. I promise. However if you can't, or won't do that, I do insist that you, Flyer22reborn, Gandydancer, Montabw and a few others drop the mens rights BS, at least towards me. Please.] (]) 02:05, 23 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :If you will agree to walk away, then agree to walk away. Don't turn back and try to "get" Flyer. If you will not agree to walk away from the GamerGate field then the community should TBAN you. ] (]) 05:05, 23 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| WP:NPA | |||
| ::Liz, were you talking to Flyer22reborn too please? Jytdog, I've admitted getting into stupid '''2-way''' bickering and conflicts with Flyer22reborn, which are not helpful and are disruptive, but I won't accept your false accusations of harassing or following her and definitely not accept you trying to now embroil me in any way in the gamgergate ] and biased editing. Editor Rhoark and so many other '''good faith''' editors have also been '''offended''' and unduly scared away from articles by Flyer22reborn's aggressive and uncivil editing and men's rights labeling, and it needs to stop, or at least be tempered, rather than Flyer22reborn and the rest of the ], believe they are above any sanctions here on Misplaced Pages and continue to roam free. If I'm ganged up on again, rather than reading my comments above and how I have '''already''' taken Liz's '''two-way advice''' to "keep out of each others way" wherever possible, then so be it. However I'm hoping that neutral and fair administrators like Liz and Diannaa can again read my comments please, and look at my actual edits to articles, and make their own decision to close this thread rather than feel pressured by you Jytdog. IMO it also would have been appropriate and respectful to Liz, and the community, if Flyer22reborn had responded to Liz's fair suggestion to resolve this too. I'm pretty sure Liz and Rhoark were not just talking to me.] (]) 08:48, 23 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *I agree with Jytdog that a topic ban should be placed on Charlotte135.--] 13:40, 23 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Harald_Walach&diff=prev&oldid=1266713324 | |||
| ::Hi Mongo. Could you please provide '''one diff''' here as to why a topic ban?] (]) 14:03, 23 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{U|MONGO}} Just so your opinion is neutral Mongo, and based on something, would you mind providing any actual evidence, reasoning and some diffs. Anything?] (]) 14:50, 23 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Profanity | |||
| For the love of god please stop randomly bolding words. It doesn't make your argument any more impressive much like how using capslock doesn't make you more important. --] (]) 19:35, 23 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:James_Tour&diff=prev&oldid=1267046966 | |||
| :For the love of god, I have ''already'' taken the lead on administrator Liz's fair two-way advice, to both Flyer22reborn and I, to be adults and "keep out of each others way" wherever possible.] (]) 21:15, 23 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Assuming "malicious" intent; profanity; deprecating the editor | |||
| ::Jytdog is giving an excellent summary of what's been going on here and I suggest we take his advise on the solution. ] (]) 01:41, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory&diff=prev&oldid=1267154877 | |||
| :::Hi Gandydancer. "advise" is spelt "advice". Administrator {{U|Liz}}, I have for my part, at least, taken your fair ''two-way advice'', to both Flyer22reborn and I, to be adults and "keep out of each others way" wherever possible. What more can I do? The issue dragged here was my alleged interaction with Flyer22. Since my topic ban expired on the 15th, my editing has shown no bias, in any way, and no editor here has provided any evidence, not even a single diff to show otherwise. Please rule on this Liz. Surely there are other real cases to be dealing with. Thank you.] (]) 02:15, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I know the difference - it was an error and not something worth mentioning, IMO. ] (]) 19:27, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::It was just that I remember you making such a big deal of the fact and bragging to me that you're IQ was in the top 5% of the population on internet IQ tests. I did not think that was necessary to try and demean other editors by saying that, that's all. I mean, who cares what you think your IQ is. So when you made that spelling error I thought it was worth pointing out.] (]) 20:04, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Unicivil | |||
| ::::Did you seriously nitpick someone's spelling on a non-article page? Stop. Now. You are burning every god damn bridge you possibly can and it needs to stop. --] (]) 19:49, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Mick_West&diff=prev&oldid=1267158027 | |||
| *I think it is time for an admin to step in here; the parameters of this discussion are well-defined and Charlotte135 has taken the WP:ROPE. At a minimum, the topic ban needs to be reimposed. Charlotte135 IS taking the same tone of editing that got this editor their original topic ban, is stalking and harassing Flyer22reborn, and though {{u|Liz}} means well, a two-way ban is not going to work; Flyer DOES get targeted by men's rights activists and has any number of people who mean ill-will just waiting for an excuse to harass her further. This is Charlotte135's behavior we are looking at and Charlotte135's alone. The responses and personal attacks by this user toward just about every other user who weighed in here with any kind of critical commentary pretty much make the case. ]<sup>]</sup> 04:25, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267160441 | |||
| *Disclosure - I've had encounters with both parties in the past, so I may be considered marginally involved. That said, I'm having a difficult time figuring out the root issue here. | |||
| :Charlotte135 has a clear beef with Flyer22. Their interactions started back on 20 October 2015 on ] where the two begin to edit war a bit. Flyer22's behavior and interactions with Charlotte haven't been ideal, especially for a veteran editor. However, Flyer22 has been the subject of repeated harassment in the past and often gets the brunt of antifeminist, homophobic, and transphobic editors' personal attacks and sockpuppeting users (note: not calling Charlotte these things)... which makes me under understanding of short tempers and incivility from Flyer22. Flyer22 has a record of grumpiness, but a strong record of constructive editing as well. We certainly has our resident grumps and incivil editors and after months of strong concern about CIVIL and enforcement-related bashing of my head against a wall, I've come to the conclusion that so long as they aren't making direct personal attacks, harassing, or using slurs, leave them be. Or maybe trout them a few times. Flyer22, turn down the grump, disengage (which she seems to have done already after the ANI filing), and avoid being so BITEy. If an editor starts making questionable or POV edits, let other editors address the behavior if your initial attempts to address it fail. There's little harm in having POV or UNDUE editors on an article for a bit; they'll be addressed soon enough. I acknowledge that I'm generally sympathetic to Flyer22's experiences on Misplaced Pages and that my interpretation of events is informed by that). | |||
| :However I'm unclear as to why Charlotte resorts rather quickly to name calling and ]. From what I can tell, it stems more from a strong POV than past issues. From the get-go on ], Charlotte shows a strong POV and battleground mentality. This is not unusual for a motivated new editor though. The thing is, that hasn't seemed to change at all. It may have gotten worse. And it continued after a 3 month topic ban. I am wondering if Charlotte is able to be a constructive editor in this area at all. She seems able to edit other areas well enough, so to me a tban would be a reasonable course of action. I do think the evidence Flyer22 provided supports the accusations of hounding/harassment/following. But I've seen so many ibans fail, and frankly this is about more than just two editors who can't get along. The BLUDGEONING and combative tone on this ANI alone demonstrates some level of inability to see her own problematic behavior. | |||
| :Based on Jytdog's and Montanabw's and Liz's comments, as well as Charlotte's BLUDEGONing, ], and lack of recognition of own problematic behaviors, I think a tban would be best. Had I commented a couple days ago, I might have gone for a formal warning, but the comments on this ANI shift me more towards a tban. {{U|Jytdog}} suggested the Gamergate DS, but I don't think Charlotte was alerted to those discretionary sanctions before. However, {{U|Bbb23}} did notify her of the Men's Rights Movement general sanctions () which includes the possibility of "{{tq|other measures the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project}}". A tban on gender, sex, sexuality related articles (or articles related to controversies thereof) would seem to cover most of the area of disruption. ] ] <small>Please {{]}}</small> 06:18, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thanks for that thoughtful analysis, EvergreenFir. That makes sense to me. ] (]) 14:57, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::I thank EvergreenFir as well. Sounds good. ] (]) 19:27, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Contact on user page attempted | |||
| ::Could EvergreenFir or any editor please point out just '''one single diff''' where, since the 15th my editing would possibly justify a topic ban. I have kept asking this, but no-one, not Mongo, no-one, has been able to show even one single diff or any actual evidence whatsoever. This was dragged here by Flyer22 reborn for our ''two-way'' interactions and conflicts. Suddenly a topic ban has been imposed, but with no diffs and no evidence presented from the 15th onward. I asked this question of administrators Diannaa and Mark Arsten a few weeks ago and here was Mark's response . Also this discussion with Diannaa on my talk page is here and my reply is here . When I dared to made one single edit to the ] article, that two other independent editors agreed with, sure enough, I was jumped on, and here we are. And the only people who have weighed in on this discussion here too are the same group of editors and friends I discuss on my talk page. Editors who I am sure, in other respects, are all ]. But that point is also discussed in the ] essay too. All very strange.] (]) 20:25, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Your on domestic violence mere days after your tban edited, a continuation of your initial beef from October which results in your tban, and the ensuing on the article's talk page. Which then continued the following day with other users (, including a personal attack on Flyer22 () <small>despite the fact that you were the one to initially delete comments () which Flyer22 reverted ()... likely an edit conflict, but you seized on it as evidence of malice</small>. The argument continued two days later (). While all of this is happening, you're following Flyer22 to brand new pages (shown in diffs in initial complaint). You literally only stop once this ANI is filed. Like I said, I think Flyer22 and you have a major beef, but I don't think that's the locus of the problem. You edited just fine on psychology-related articles during your tban... you dabbled in feminism articles even (where I first encountered you). But that you immediately returned to your dispute on ] immediately after your tban ''and'' followed Flyer22 around suggests your behavior is the problem and the certain areas foster problematic behaviors from you. Flyer22 might be a catalyst, but isn't the cause. She isn't following you, she's just reacting (admittedly in a hostile way) to you when you show up. It doesn't seem fair to punish Flyer22 for your problematic behaviors (which is what an iban would do). And frankly one-way ibans don't seem to work. So tban is my conclusion; remove you from the areas that foster your behavior. ] ] <small>Please {{]}}</small> 22:58, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Hob_Gadling&diff=prev&oldid=1267160795 | |||
| ::::EvergreenFir, I'm not going to bother compiling a detailing diff history of exactly how Flyer22reborn baited me by removing certain edits, right before the 15th, and all the times they monitored my talk pages and the masses of personal attacks and uncivil behavior toward me. What's the point, nothing would happen to them anyway, and everyone knows that. I also can't be bothered, as I said to Diannaa. However foolishly, after the 15th, I took Flyer's bait. I also felt like testing my liberty on the project to be honest. Just like any other editor, and apply Mark Arsten's response to what I can do and cant edit after Flyer22 kept commenting on different talk pages trying to restrict me unfairly and for no reason at all, from editing certain articles and Diannaa's advice . But then I even apologized for my own childish reaction and suggested an interaction ban with Flyer22reborn - ''before they posted here''. In fact I have asked Flyer22reborn to work with me many times but they refused and instead wanted to continue the conflict. I'm not the only one Flyer22reborn has conflicts with either. Over at ] Flyer22reborn has been upsetting more folks. It's becoming almost daily. Wherever you go, Flyer22reborn is upsetting, beliitling, demeaning and taunting other good faith, and in many cases very experienced editors too, apart from her large group of friends, both editors and administrators. These good faith independent editors are then labelled disruptive, or men's rights, or just plain daft, and ignorant for not agreeing with Flyer22 and not understanding policy as well as Flyer22reborn does. My concern is that Flyer22 knows damn well they can get away with it here on Misplaced Pages nowadays, for some reason. It doesn't seem to matter how rude, how disruptive they are, and how many edits are blatant POV pushing, it's tolerated again and again, much to the amazement of many editors here. And it seems to be getting worse. They can basically do whatever they like and get away with it. I thought Rhoark's neutral and detailed comments above summarized all of these points very well, but was again quickly smashed by Flyer22reborn. . | |||
| Assuming bad faith, accusing editor of being incompetent | |||
| ::::{{U|EvergreenFir}} As far as my topic ban, I can happily walk from the ridiculously biased ] topic and articles that Flyer22reborn and shootingstar88 and some others have filled with cherry picked sources and POV, but why the gender and sexual topics EvergreenFir? Especially since I have already taken the lead on administrator Liz's ''fair two-way advice'', to both Flyer22reborn and I, to be adults and "keep out of each others way" wherever possible. If I see Flyer22reborn I will not interact. Simple. Can you provide some reasons for those other topics please? And for goodness sake, please not the men's rights stuff again. Please.] (]) 01:28, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267163557] (]) 03:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Is it because Flyer22reborn has edited to some degree literally every, single possible sexual article that exists, and therefore a broad brush has been applied? As an adult, and an editor who is here to help with the project, I can assure you again, that I will follow Liz's fair advice. Would you possibly consider just a topic ban on the domestic violence articles instead? I don't understand otherwise, especially given Flyer22reborn's has had absolutely no sanctions applied to them over all of this.] (]) 01:40, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :Think this calls for a fierce ] slapping and some direct words. I cannot really endorse a ] according to ], as this is just an ] and frankly, I don't see ''direct'' personal attacks, I just see unfriendly behavior and prick-ish attitude, no outward disruption of the project either. Also, I have to ask for further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions, as {{tq|some diffs from the past few days}} are not indicative of chronic issue. The holiday times, like Christmas, Hanukkah, and New Years' can be some of the most stressful times for people during the year. Not saying I like seeing this, but I can understand the feeling. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 04:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::{{U|Jytdog}}, it looks like you are trying to quickly close this off now, but administrators Liz and EvergreenFir have proposed very different solutions and so did editor Rhoark. And both administrators Diannaa and Mark Arsten, have been involved indirectly here too, through the advice they both provided to me prior to the 15th. Would you mind please just letting EvergreenFir read these new comments, and my fair proposal, and then they can close it off as an administrator and hopefully consider my good faith proposal and points I've made. Like you, I am here to improve the project despite your bad faith accusations. Thank you.] (]) 03:59, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Would I be the person to provide you with that {{tq|further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions}}? I did think that it would be more than a ], since that's for {{tq|one-off instances of seemingly silly behavior}} and this is more like a perpetual bad habit that needs something a bit stronger, like a stern ]. ] (]) 06:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::All I did on this thread was . Stop digging. ] (]) 04:02, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :@]: I don't see anything violating policy with regard to direct personal attacks or even profanity directed at a person, but rather directed to the topic in the discussion. ''Hob should know better'', and as per BarntToust, Hob really deserves a trout to be a bit more civil and how to ]. But I would ''caution you'' about ] and the new attention to your activity and involvement this has drawn to your own edits. For example your , , and it seems like you're having a problem handling a ] and assuming bath faith of editors. You are not going to win a battle to get your material included by trying to report other editors in bad faith. | |||
| :::::::I was just about to apologize to you, after seeing it was another case you were referring to not this one, but you beat me to it. Sorry.] (]) 04:05, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :Furthermore it does appear that you might be ] because your attempts at ] for your specific perspectives regarding Covid are meeting resistance at every turn. , , , , , , and now this ANI report. Without evaluating everything you've discussed in the past few weeks, at quick glance it appears that you're having problems understanding ] and are having contentious discussions with far more experienced editors. That isn't to say that we assume that they're correct and you're wrong, but when you're receiving pushback from multiple very experienced editors, I would encourage you to slow down a bit and try to fully understand the policy, and isntead of arguing to "win", you need to read about how you need to work towards ]. Because at the end of the day, without consensus, you will continue to have a lot of problems. ] ] 05:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::For what it's worth, I've been hacking up the DV article like a Dexter montage, and surprisingly, there has been no resultant shit storm. The issue seems to have boiled down to | |||
| ::I appreciate the feedback and will take it into consideration and try to refine my approach to disputes. My intention has been to address ''unique issues'' as they arise, versus shopping around the same old dispute. For example, the current ANI topic pertains specifically to some rude behavior that has been going on for quite some time and doesn't show any sign of stopping despite my attempts to resolve it directly. The editor in question actually seems pretty reasonable in their interpretation of the sources but I speculate that there might be a perception in the rank-and-file that it's OK to be pretty uncivil to editors who advocate for moving the NPOV because they're naturally afraid of putting their own head on the chopping block, so to speak. I suppose raising these issues in relevant venues is in line with guidelines. Both of those RSN discussions were related to distinct sourcing problems and resulted in useful resolutions that aligned with my concerns. The Teahouse posts about the Covid content disputes and a question regarding the politics of Misplaced Pages was in response to an administrator’s suggestion (]) that I drop by there for a discussion, and I found the feedback from experienced users there helpful. My talk page comments about user behavior were meant to discuss issues first on talk pages, per the ANI guidelines. ({{tq|All content and conduct issues should be discussed first at the talk page of the relevant article or user before requesting dispute resolution.}} ]) Thank you for your time and input. | |||
| ::::::::* Flyer and Charlotte had bad blood to begin with, and pretty quickly devolved into assumptions of bad faith. | |||
| ::] (]) 07:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::* Lot's of accusations mostly centered around Charlotte's prev block, and somewhat less so about her current behavior | |||
| ::I hope the editors who read this will notice the ABF here: {{tq|trying to report other editors in bad faith}}. ] (]) 21:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::* A recent discussion that is mostly a stylistic difference of opinion | |||
| {{OD}} | |||
| ::::::::* A lot of unhelpful comments by a very new editor, Shy1alize | |||
| @]: Jay brought something to my attention with . It looks like there is ] (ChatGPT) text about "COVID-19 Natural Immunity" copied and pasted on there. What in the cheeseballs?? What made you think {{!tq|hmm, let's prompt ShatGPT to churn out 700 words about this random out-of-pocket topic, and I'm gonna post this on my Misplaced Pages user page for no reason!}} I'm confused. This specific revision also ] about IP editors, and here's the rich part: just as you copy-pasted text from ChatGPT about COVID to your user page, you go on to write a section that addresses use of AI. {{tq|Quoting from an AI chat bot without attribution is plaigiarism.}} I'm just confused with what you are doing here. So I'd like to ask you, ], what in the sam hill is going on here? If there is a reasonable explanation for this goofiness, I suggest you produce one, '''not from a prompt entered into ChatGPT''', in your own words. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 16:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::At the end of the day, everyone needs to learn how to avoid ad hominem. Charlotte needs to learn when trivial things are trivial and defer to more experienced editors, because it didn't really matter that much anyway. Flyer needs to practice how to have discussions with new editors without it translating in new-editor-speak to "fuck you and your wrong opinion." Shy1alize has a lot to learn period. And the RfC seems to have resolved the issue anyway. Charlotte served her time and nothing in this case in-and-of-itself seems like grounds for a ban, at least to me. The article moves on. There is no current disruption except for the ad nauseam discussion here. ] (]) 15:02, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::What you are missing, is the whole point of the OP which is not about the DV article (and your metaphors for your work there are inapt at best) - it is about Charlotte following Flyer around. ] (]) 22:28, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::No. That's in the "bad blood" part. Flyer is ubiquitous in gender/sexuality related articles, as has been pointed out, I believe. | |||
| ::::::::::Perhaps most importantly, I haven't actually seen that much Dexter. The prevalence of serial killers just doesn't add up. My wife went through a Netflix phase. Also, the overuse of voice over...oy vey, don't get me started.] (]) 22:57, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :It is an old version of their user page, and it is not plagiarism to quote from a chat bot even without attribution, so we must assume that you are attempt to detract from the OP's complaint. The issue at hand is an experienced editor who joins talk page discussions without understanding the topic at hand (which they admit in one instance ), and are frequently use derogatory language and tone towards other editors. This behavior does not seem like a new thing for them and they clearly know how to skirt the edge of what would be considered a personal attack by an admin, so this merits a formal warning. ] (]) 18:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::look, the other guy is acting pissy, and I agree with the formal warning. But @], you should familiarise yourself with ]. The long short of it if you didn't click on one of the several instances of it being linked above: If an editor attempts to bring someone else to ANI while having dirty laundry themselves, this editor will likely be found out for their dirty laundry. And that's what I'm doing right now. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I know what WP:BOOMERANG is and I telling you that you appears to be here only to detract from the complaint, and the way you are doing it by dragging up something from old user page and making claims of plagirism is highly suspect. If an admin scrolls through Hob's comments on the lab leak topic page, they will see that they are almost all designed to provoke and demean other editors. This highly inappropriate for such a difficult topic area where editors struggle to agree on NPOV. ] (]) 18:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::So far, there's agreement that this is unbecoming behaviour from Hob, and they need a ] slap to wake them the heck up from the bad behaviour. I do not understand why the jester cannot be questioned for his goofy behaviour when he shows himself to be goofy as he tries to alert everyone of the fool's, uh, foolishness. No offence intended from this medieval analogy. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::{{u|BarntToust}} You're being ] and you need to stop. WP:BOOMERANG is for when the reporter is the one causing the problems, not for airing "dirty laundry" as you yourself describe it. ] (]) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::well, I tend to get concerned when someone with LLM text pasted on their userpage comes up from the water. If that's considered bite-y to reiterate my concerns in intentional lighthearted analogy in order to seem less hard-headed, then I guess we're done here. @], I invite you to weigh in on whether you think a '''formal warning''' or a ] slap is what needs to happen to Hob. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :That content from ChatGPT was meant to go in my sandbox as experiment or for assisting with research into a future article. The LLM can generate wikitext with links to articles that already exist. ] (]) 18:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::When you get a bunch of text from a large language model, you get unsourced content. If you ask ChatGPT for info, you run the serious risk of getting false content. So, either way you take it: If you get text, then try to re-write it cohesively, and find sources for it, you are ] and that is to be discouraged; if you are asking AI to gain an understanding on an unfamiliar topic, you are likely to run into false information. If you use AI for either of these purposes, @], I suggest you be very judicious about how you go about "leveraging AI". There are more ways that can go wrong than I need to count on the ANI. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Why are you on this administrator page making these spurious claims of plagiarism and giving this unsolicited advices? ] (]) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::@], I'm pointing out questionable content on someone else page. for ''context'', in which they copied ChatGPT text without attribution, then said that using ChatGPT without attribution is plagiarism. That contradictory stuff is what I was questioning. please click on the diff for context. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:11, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I use it more like a (really good) search engine or a thesaurus. It can give a lot of suggestions for a human writer, but ultimately you use your own mind and RS to formulate the facts and how to present them. ] (]) 19:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::that's a good moderation mindset to use. I'm satisfied with your answer, it makes enough sense. Carry on! <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Thanks! *curtsy* ] (]) 00:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *The lack of civility in this contentious topic is significantly hindering editing efforts, especially since most issues concern neutrality and tone, which requires a careful and nuanced approach. ] (]) 17:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Thank you for your unbiased and independent comments Timothyjosephwood. Your input here is appreciated. By the way, even though I’m not a Dexter fan either, I thought your metaphor was quite apt on the domestic violence article. Although I stayed well clear, thank you for your recent work on that article. It would be good to see further ] editing over there, and in related articles, where a number of different editors, work together to form an article that is fully compliant with Misplaced Pages's core content policies, such as ] (WP:NPOV), ] (WP:NOR) and ] (WP:V). | |||
| :I can't see anything in the original report that does anything other than show that Hob Gadling calls a thicko a thicko. What is wrong with that? ] (]) 18:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::@] As someone who was the recipient of one of those attacks in the example, I'm curious, what is a "thicko" and why do you believe that I am one? ] (]) 19:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::...according to the Cambridge English Dictionary, it means "a stupid person" - which would make it ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 19:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Yes, in British slang, "thick" = "stupid". ]] 19:54, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| There is not enough context for the examples of impatience from Hob Gadling which the OP offers. For example, Lardlegwarmers, do you really expect a warm welcome for your 'attempted contact on user page' ]? Or for your puritanical reproaches about HG's use of "profanity" (which normally turns out to mean using the word ''bullshit'', which is by no means banned from Misplaced Pages, nor is its expressiveness easy to replace with something more flattering). Considering what they're replying to, of another editor's intellect and reasoning skills"]] seems pretty temperate. And so on. ] | ] 20:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC). | |||
| :I'm not suggesting we should wash anybody's mouth out with soap. The editor's consistent uncivil behavior is more than just the occasional salty diction here and there. I mean, look at ] where an editor is asking for a discussion on why Hob Gadling reverted his edit. It seems as if the person was trying to do it on the talk page and was ignored. Hob Gadling gruffly tells the other editor to get lost. ] (]) 01:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| The other largely unsubstantiated comments on this thread, are from a few close friends of Flyer22, mainly Gandydancer, Montabw and Jytdog. It should also be noted that I have had interpersonal conflict with Gandydancer and Montanbw in the past and they dislike me personally, with a vengeance, that’s for sure, and from also a motive of vengeance IMO but the fact is, they never, ever provide diffs, or any evidence at all to back up their drive-by comments and just suddenly appear, wherever I am being discussed by Flyer22reborn. On the other side of the ring, is Rhoark's comments Timothyjosephwood’s comments above, administrator Diannaa's advice administrator Mark Arsten's advice and opinion and administrator Liz's fair minded comments and solution and of course, my own defence, with diffs, which unfortunately appears a little lost in translation. Another neutral editor, Kingsindian, who carefully analyzed the situation when I was topic banned a few months ago, and added their thoughtful and detailed comments, can be seen here for some further perspective on this mutual bad blood between flyer22reborn, and I and also paints Flyer22 as being far from innocent in our interactions. | |||
| :My experience is that this kind of aggression is standard operating procedure for the defendant. I'd basically given up on them seeing any consequences for it - it's been going on for a long time, so I assumed this is one of the cases where editors with enough "social capital" get an exemption from CIVIL. I doubt a trout will have lasting effect. - ] (]) 02:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::My experience with and attitude toward Hob is 100% the same as described here by Palpable. It goes back a while ... <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿ ] (] ])</span> 22:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Hob Gadling failing to yield to ], apparently missing both the discussion and RSN link from the talk page. Asserting an unreliable source as reliable in order to describe the subject as having a ‘victim complex’. ] (]) 23:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Could I make a number of facts very clear here for the record. Firstly, I am not a men’s rights activist (no offence to anyone who actually is, by the way) but for the last time, I am not. And I don’t believe most of the many other editors who have had conflicts with Flyer22reborn are either. Secondly I am here to help, and be constructive, and my edits are not disruptive. Both Timothyjosephwood’s and Kingsindian’s comments directly support this fact, particularly after the 15th March. Nor have I exhibited any POV since the 15th, anywhere, ''and no diffs or evidence have been presented here, showing otherwise contray.'' Thirdly I am not, I repeat, not following Flyer22reborn around. If anything, the opposite has occurred. Here are my comments, prior to Flyer22reborn dragging me to ANI, and me actually suggesting an interaction ban. | |||
| :Note that Hob edited the talk page after re-adding this content; he should have self reverted if he missed this discussion prior. ] (]) 00:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| For the record, I have also genuinely asked Flyer22 if they would like to work with me and bury the hatchet on no less than 8 occasions (maybe more). Each time Flyer22reborn has rudely told me to piss off, no way. So I’ve actually given up on trying to work with them now, to be honest, and will instead, like Liz fairly suggested, just ignore or avoid Flyer22 in the future, rather than taking her bait. One can only get rejected, demeaned and belittled so many times before one gives up on working with someone. Here is another example of me deciding to try and resolve further conflict and not take the bait, which is the complete opposite of harassing, Flyer22reborn. And here’s an example of me just letting it go and walking away before, Flyer22reborn still decided to drag me over here. I think the point that everyone realizes, even Jytdog, is that Flyer22reborn seems unable to ever accept they are wrong or just back down. A current ongoing example of this is at ], where Flyer22reborn is once again insisting they know best, and belittling Coconutporkpie’s knowledge of policy. Further evidence against accusations of harassment I chose to stay well out of that dispute also, although I definitely agree with Coconutporkpie. And by the way, I only noticed this long running dispute at that article, as I have made a number of edits to the child neglect article and thought at one stage the two articles could have been integrated. Anyway, we all need to back down sometimes in life. We all need to admit we are wrong too. That is if we are adults. I think this is why Liz and other editors here have also advised Flyer22 to be an adult and stop demeaning others if they happen to disagree. | |||
| *'''Propose''' serving of trout to both. Hob likely may have acted a hair too strongly to a source of exasperation; but not enough for any warning. Lardlegwarmers provides a large helping of such and I would suggest a boom if not for BITE. Albeit, Lardlegwarmers’ knowledge of WP is beyond the average for an editor with 5x the posts. I would suggest a non-logged warning to Lardlegwarmers on the concept of collaboration for their own good. Otherwise, we are likely to see them back here given their attitude at both this filing and at ]. (Disclaimer, I have been involved.) ] (]) 01:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:For context, ] is on the other "side" from me in a content dispute along with Hob Gadling (])] (]) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::I am on the "side" of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines and am not arguing any content issues here. But I did state I was involved. ] (]) 16:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Best not to imply that your opposition is not on the side of the rules. Given this comment and your involvement, I think you should recuse. ] (]) 00:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::Recuse{{smiley}} Appears that you have over 500 edits to Covid related article pages including their TPs. That's approaching 50% of your lifetime edits and 250 times the percentage of my edits in that area. Consider that in your short time here, you were blocked for egregious and repeated bad-faith assumptions. Probably should avoid that in future as this appears to be the same. Meanwhile, I stand by my post here and involved editors add value; so I will not suggest that you recuse. ] (]) 01:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::To be clear, I was suggesting recusing from proposals, not from discussion. Regards. ] (]) 02:10, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:If you click through the diffs, you’ll notice that many other editors have received the rude comments, so this is more than a 1-on-1 scuffle with me and Hob Gadling. I stopped compiling examples after finding 9 examples of visible hostility out of their most recent dozen diffs, but like I mentioned to ] above, I can go back further if you need me to, to illustrate the chronic pattern. And the handful of other editors who have spoken up here who have been aggrieved speak for themselves. ] (]) 03:31, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *As a note, Hob Gadling without comment and has not responded here. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I think the fact that administrator Liz was involved in another case where Flyer22reborn’s friend and protégé Shootingstar88, was reprimanded at ANI for attacking me, and then later Diannaa blocked twice for copyright violations, puts her in the best position to decide on this case, but anyway. And I had already taken the lead on administrator Liz's fair two-way advice, to both Flyer22reborn and I, to be adults and "keep out of each other’s way" wherever possible. I have also now taken on board Timothyjosephwood’s advice that “everyone needs to learn how to avoid ad hominem” and his direct advice to me that “Charlotte needs to learn when trivial things are trivial and defer to more experienced editors, because it didn't really matter that much anyway.” Having said all of that, could I possibly be given a warning instead, and some good faith assumed here, without an actual topic ban, and we then see how things go, instead of smashing me and imposing a sweeping topic ban for ….? and let Flyer22reborn to continue roaming scott free? Seems a tad unfair. If the same behavior did continue, could we then deal with it in a heavier handed manner EvergreenFir? Please at least consider this option instead, and as administrator Liz first suggested, and now another independent editor Timothyjosephwood has reiterated, after their own careful consideration and work at the domestic violence article. Thank you.] (]) 11:51, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *:Hob Gadling is allowed to do whatever they want to their user talk page including removing notifications of discussions. ] (]) 00:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::Never said they weren't. Just noting that they clearly received the notice and chose not to respond here, which is a response in and of itself. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{collapse top|Extended discussion}} | |||
| {{od}} | |||
| Wish Hob Gadling would not act like a profane teenager on talk page discussions and that they'd treat people without the smartass-y-ness and contempt. If they are so committed to being pissy towards other users while being shut-off in their own la-la-land, maybe they need a block until they're willing to face the music. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 01:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :This comment is actually more of a personal attack then any of the diffs provided originally. Smartass, like a teenager, pissy, lalaland? That's some ageism, maybe commenting on mental health, and some silly insults. I don't think you should see any sanctions for this, but hopefully you compare your comments to the diffs. ] (]) 22:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : ] (]) 15:02, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::IP, how'd you get here? A person who calls things {{tq|bullshit}} and generally isn't in a good mood around others, being condescending: saying that they are pissy and being a smartass is ]. Teenagers are known for angst and pissy-ness and for having lip. Not insinuating they are a teenager, just that their behavior resembles that of. As you will recall, someone, somewhere in this derailed, miles-long trainwreck of an ANI report-turned morality seminar-turned COVID-19 ] + ] debate, said that there is no policy against profanity. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 23:07, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::If I tell User:ExampleA that they did an "amazing fuckin' job!" with a ], that is different than calling User:ExampleB a "{{!tq|fuckin' wanker}}" because they botched a ]. Context is everything, and I get how we are all connecting through the two-dimensional medium of simple text and thus misunderstandings tend to occur, but tones like these aren't that hard to discern. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 23:12, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Great song, thanks Timothyjosephwood. So inspirational. My 5 year old daughter and I love that movie. I feel like an idiot everyone. And not for the above reasons, or because Flyer22reborn and her friends keep telling me I am, for not agreeing with them and standing up to them. No, it's because some lovely kind hearted IP just left an enlightening message on my talk page. It was simple, sincere and direct. It read ''EvergreenFir is not an admin'' You see, those five words: EvergreenFir is not an admin, changes everything for me. And they explained everything for me. Thanks so much EvergreenFir, for not telling me that fact, and casting such ridiculous aspirations, without any evidence in the way of diffs. I also wondered how EvergreenFir's solution was so very different to the real administrators ''fair minded decision''. Now I know. Since I did my time as Timothyjosephwood put it, the '''evidence''' clearly shows I have not edited either disruptively, nor with any POV. The mountain of evidence also shows that no, I have not been harassing Flyer22, and in fact, the opposite may be true. ''But let's let it go.'' From here on, I'm going to follow administrator Diannaa's advice administrator Mark Arsten's advice and opinion and administrator Liz's fair minded comments and solution So Liz, could we please just close this ridiculous thread, and in the words of the great ], just '''let it go''' the ''past is in the past'', and we all get back to editing and building the project. Please {{U|Liz}}.] (]) 22:21, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::When ] shouts "fucking A!" after a job well done, that is not the same when he tells ] that he is a "fucking psycho murderer". <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 23:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I'm not an admin. But I don't think you understand that a good portion of the cases here just get ignored and auto archived if you stop being disruptive .] (]) 22:29, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Right, and there are no egregious uncivil diffs either. So, how is Hob acting like a pissy teenager, but you aren't? Catch my drift? This is a nothing burger report, and the reporter should get a boomerang. ] (]) 00:56, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Also I'm envious. We're pregnant. My wife wants a boy. I kindof want a girl. I wanted to name her Rosa, but my wife thinks it's too ethnic (she white af). PM me with good girl names if you can. We're committed to a "II" if it's a boy. Family thing. | |||
| ::::Hob's profanity is not amiable. It sours the collaboration with other editors. most importantly, it is undue. Mine is not undue, and is a statement of truth. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 01:12, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Also if you can be constructive, I could use some shovel and hammer over at DV. A lot needs to be done. If you can help me take one word out of every sentence for tightening, that would be great. Just don't sweat the small stuff, which is how this all happened.] (]) 22:47, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::: |
:::::Provide a diff of something you believe is sanctionable. Your pile of personal attacks is making it unclear what you are trying to say. It's ok when you cuss, but it's bad if someone else does it? What? ] (]) 01:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | ||
| ::::::Profanity has nothing to do with it. The attitude is the thing that's wrong. The word "shit" can be said in many different ways. Some good, some bad. Have you even looked through these diffs of Hob's comments that have popped up through this ANI report? I also invite you to create an account. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 02:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::So, to recap, ]: It's not ''what'' it is said that causes problems, it's '''''how''''' it is said that matters, and in what context. I call a pissy editor pissy because it's great to ]. I can use profanity to describe someone's behaviour, and if I weigh words, I can even use it when addressing someone's contributions; i.e. "This is a really fuckin' well done article, User:Example". Hob calling someone's opinions {{tq|bullshit}} is not the right thing to do. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 02:29, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Always liked the name Rose, Timothyjosephwood. Maybe that could be a compromise, if she's a girl that is, and your wife likes the name. I'd be happy to help over there, and thank you for your good faith offer, but seriously given that Flyer22reborn is still actively involved, I think I will continue to follow administrator Liz's '''solution''' instead, and try and keep out of ''each others'' way wherever possible. I noticed that the second paragraph of ] I mostly wrote is still standing though, after all the trimming, so at least I have been able to offer some constructive editing to that article.] (]) 07:09, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::I think you may refer to this as calling a spade a spade. When someone says we should ignore science because it has a COI with Covid-19, their opinion is bullshit. This is what you are defending. ] (]) 03:15, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' for excessive ] including jumping on any opportunity to turn the discussion away from germane topics, ] arguments, and for general ] people who disagree with their viewpoints. Now I await the incipient TLDR-coma inducing rebuttal from the user at the core of this debate. ] (]) 14:37, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Eh, you can say "That's ] and ] and does not constitute ] as the subject is discussed in ]". Calling a spade a spade is easy, while addressing content and user contributions in dispute should require more, IDK, poise. I can say "fucking awesome work!" to an editor about their ] and no harm can be meant by that in any feasible situation, but when addressing questionable content, it should be done with nuance, eh? You can call someone's work shit whose work ''isn't'' shit, but you pretty much can't call someone's work "fucking amazing" whose work isn't amazing, as calling work "fucking amazing" provides pretty much no point of contention, unless you were just bullshitting them for no reason or trying to be nice about a novice's contributions that in terms of quality, reflect their inexperience. | |||
| ::Starting to agree with you Hasteur... ] ] <small>Please {{]}}</small> 19:59, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::This entire ANI report has derailed into pretty much every unrelated topic save debate over what ]. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 03:58, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::I'm not worried about contexts when "strong language" is ok, and you can stop giving needless examples. I don't believe anything that violates our guidelines on civility took place at all in the diffs originally provided. Hob was reasonable in tone, and sometimes people are exasperated by nonsense. Being annoyed but mostly polite isn't actually against the rules. You will need better diffs to change my mind. ] (]) 06:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Request for closure=== | |||
| :::::::::The COI pertains only to a few authors in particular with a personal stake in the outcome of the investigation. For example, the article uses several sources co-authored by Dr. Zhengliang Shi who {{tq|herself and the WIV itself have an obvious conflict of interest}}<ref> Nie JB. "In the Shadow of Biological Warfare: Conspiracy Theories on the Origins of COVID-19 and Enhancing Global Governance of Biosafety as a Matter of Urgency." Journal of Bioethical Inquiry. 2020 Dec;17 https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7445685/</ref> This is a secondary peer-reviewed article, and several editors who call LL fringe stated it is RS.<ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_327#c-GPinkerton-2021-01-18T14:40:00.000Z-ScrupulousScribe-2021-01-18T14:27:00.000Z</ref><ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory#c-Shibbolethink-20250104081900-IntrepidContributor-20250103151400</ref> ] (]) 08:31, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Can we get an administrator who has not yet weighed in on this discussion to assess the consensus and close this thread? ] (]) 04:43, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :{{doing}} in the next <s>hour</s>few hours unless anyone beats me to it. Will take a while to untangle the thread. -- ] (]) 05:06, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thank you. ] (]) 19:22, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thank you and best of luck Euryalus. ] ] <small>Please {{]}}</small> 05:07, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ==Editor's personal behaviour in Basque sensitive articles== | |||
| ] and ] articles have shown lately the intervention of the editor {{User|Asilah1981}} with a long history of irregular editing. I should urge a prompt, conclusive intervention, the editor has lately engaged in some kind of campaign regarding these sensitive articles with no attention to detail whatsoever, ], extremely charged, confrontational style, personal attacks, and eventually threats against myself, leading to an unacceptable risk of lack of freedom to edit. He was warned by ] both of his behaviour and editing stye, but the editor remains basically the same. Thanks ] (]) 08:25, 22 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ] and me have no issue, we are both editing articles together productively, despite an initial misunderstanding. These are not "Basque sensitive articles". They are two ghost articles which have been surreptitiously written by ETA apologists, particularly the article ], which is clearly not under the supervision of more than two wikipedia editors - ] and the original editor who has deleted his account (or has been blocked, I don't know). The entire article is written in language which exalts, justifies and expresses sympathy towards Basque terrorists ETA. It is largely unsourced except using pro-ETA sources. Its entire objective is to pass-off individuals in Spain condemned for murder, attempted murder, kidnapping etc.. for political prisoners of some sort. The opening paragraph is, in its entirely, a justification for ETA's existence and actions. | |||
| My "personal attack" against ] was a indeed a bitter comment in Spanish (you are welcome to google translate it), following his systematic reverting of me removing a couple of the more outrageous statements in the article (the whole article is outrageous and offensive). He is offended by me stating he is an ETA apologist, when he has positioned himself as the defendor of this article in its current form. I stick to that claim and remind him that he is a citizen of Spain, a democratic country, where in our criminal code breaking law 10/1995 of 23 November is punishable with a prison sentence of one to two years: 'the exaltation or justification of terrorism by any means of public expression or diffusion.' You can find this in articles 571-578 of our criminal code. Misplaced Pages may not be censored but it is my duty as a citizen of Spain and the European Union to warn my fellow country men when they are breaking the law in a pretty vile way, particularly today when the continent is yet again hit by this scourge. Thank you.] (]) 09:48, 22 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :I can see there has been a heated discussion at ] but, Iñaki LL, I don't see that you presented any evidence/diffs of misconduct. I recommend that if you all have reached an impasse, that you move the discussion over to ] where a mediator can help you move to a resolution over content disputes. <font face="Papyrus" size="3" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 14:44, 22 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Asilah, as I said to you on the Basque conflict page, I think you raise valid points, but I can tell you from many years' experience editing in that area that labelling people that disagree with you is ill-advised, unlikely to persuade opponents or neutrals, and is ] and sanctionable. Similarly, where you say: "The (Spanish) state prosecutor can't act against Misplaced Pages, but they can act against individual editors if the offence is committed on Spanish territory. So if you are going to continue pursuing this with me, make sure you are not currently in Spanish territory" is really unhelpful, verging on a ]. Your input in that area is important, but you can make your points without attacking or issuing veiled threats against other editors. ] (]) 15:11, 22 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::"Content disputes"? I beg you pardon??? It is a direct threat of prosecution against me, even other more serious. It is not over contents, it is over irregular behaviour, and serial violation of WP rules destined at intimidating. I thought his contribs were telling enough. The above editor threatens with legal action against me should I revert his edits, see edits and (this last one telling "I got/know you", in Spanish). More on legal threats "by the state prosecutor" against editors ("although it can not act against wikipedia") should I act in a way or another "make sure you are not currently in Spanish territory". Check the intimidating tone, using terminology that has legal implications . | |||
| ::I posted an edit in Basque conflict talk, in the present conditions of continuous verbal abuse and threats. It is a clear case of an editor bulldozing its way by intimidation, citing my life outside the WP. The above editor, whom at this point I cannot consider legitimate given this episode and previous history, has gone on with its veiled threatening style against those who do not think like him . S/he has thereafter continued editing the article having his own way. I demand prompt unequivocal action against the above editor, and its indefinite block from WP. Thanks ] (]) 23:08, 22 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::On the same unacceptable, abusive line . ] (]) 23:13, 22 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::It is ill advised, but it is not a direct threat of prosecution. You both need to cool down. --] (]) 23:15, 22 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Have you really read the links above? Did you? Let me tell you it looks like not sorry. It is a threat on my out-of-the-WP life as pointed by himself, based on we do not know what really, since the Asilah1981's statements do not point to specific problems that may be addressed, but an overall feeling of aggravation. The goal seems rather to spread a feeling of being unsafe to dissuade editors from editing legitimately in freedom ("if you undo my edits"). There is an unacceptable inflammatory, emotional accusatory plea that makes any discussion impossible, the goal pursued as it seems (it is basically a 'my way or highway'), and thus create biased articles. Other than me and other WP editors, WP's reliability is the main victim. I should urge an immediate call to the free flow of legitimate ideas into the WP, and therefore a block to the above editor. ] (]) 08:25, 23 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I have read the links above. --] (]) 09:23, 23 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ], I have cooled down, I suggest you do the same. I have already stated in the edit you mention that I am NOT going to report you to the police in ANY case, so I am NOT threatening you. I am, however pointing to the fact that, if you engage in an edit war with me over an article with content which in Spain is clearly illegal (as well as deeply immoral), you are likely to be liable for "apology of terrorism". This is a serious risk for you outside wikipedia. I don't think you have committed a crime as of yet but you were definitely going down that road - Best warn you in advance! The risk you face is somewhat diminished by the depressingly low numbers of Spanish citizens who speak or understand English fluently but it is a risk nonetheless, particularly since your edits remain recorded into the future. The creator of article ] was fully aware of this and this is why he has deleted his account. Your edits in general are largely apolitical and constructive. Why get into trouble over such an ugly thing. I'm sure you know of what Madrid town Councillor Guillermo Zapata is going through right now. In 2016, one cannot continue to believe that the internet is a separate universe without real life consequences. ] (]) 14:44, 23 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :It's good that you have cooled down. However, you still are very confrontational and non-constructive. I suggest you stop interpreting Spanish law and leave that to the legal system. --] (]) 14:46, 23 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ] Understood. But I remind you that the least offensive of the two articles: ] has already been discussed in the Spanish parliament with an official request by Spanish party UPyD to the government to formally complain to Misplaced Pages (Simply because of its title/definition)http://www.huffingtonpost.es/2013/12/04/upyd-wikipedia-eta_n_4384982.html. Fortunately or unfortunately, no one has picked up on the worst of the two articles that I went ballistic over. This is not a question of my interpretation. The law is clear and the Spanish police has an entire team specialized in internet hate crimes and terrorism apology - a correct application of Misplaced Pages rules would bring such articles and their editors within the realm of legality as well as leading to another quality article which does not tarnish the reputation of wikipedia. Its a win-win situation. Up to you guys...] (]) 15:12, 23 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :No, it's not. It's up to the Spanish legal system. What you are doing NOW is getting very close to making legal threats against Misplaced Pages, which is an automatic ban. Don't do that. --] (]) 15:35, 23 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::For a start, Spanish state security laws and procedures overall are extremely controversial both in the Spanish and Basque political life. Secondly, I should demand Asilah1981 to retract now from unacceptable verbal abuse and personal attack against me, (literally if someone does not understand Spanish: "''(...) you are coming here and lying in English, standing up for your coward shoot-in-the-head friends''" in order to start re-establishing some kind of normality. ] (]) 22:38, 23 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :While the article should be written from as neutral a point of view as possible, the Spanish legal authorities have no jurisdiction over this American website, and what they think about the English-language Misplaced Pages is irrelevant. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 22:53, 23 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::I do not know really why this is being belated, it is a matter of concern as a contributor to the WP and as part of its community that the serial violation of WP rules including serious personal attacks could go without consequences. I feel revolted specially '''as a wipikipedian''' by the two paragraphs starting and finishing meant at paralyzing editors (by fear of editing something for which Asilah1981 may feel aggravated), dissuade from contributing unless they edit in one specific direction that s/he may find suitable enough by his/her own standards, citing a law (and the police) that looms over the editors like a sword of Damocles. | |||
| ::In fact, we do not know what the specific problem is (sentence, word...), it is the general intimidating atmosphere that remains. Check just this acusatory statement by the editor in question for the article "]" (as labelled by ex-Spanish premier Aznar): "It is largely unsourced except using pro-ETA sources", check it for yourself, nothing more to add. And the (wo)man continues with the self-talk... ] (]) 22:37, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ] actually, I would say the correct translation is "your friends of the bullet in the back of the head". Since the "soldiers" of the "basque national liberation movement" in the "basque conflict" seemed to consistently be unable to kill any of their victims unless it was from behind, particularly the nearly half of their victims who were basque civilians. Important clarification! ] I am nowhere near making legal threats against wikipedia because Spanish law does not apply to an American website nor does it even apply to editors who edit from outside Spain, such as yourself, for example. You could edit wikipedia saying ETA and ISIS are the best thing ever and that all Jews should be gassed and you would not be breaking Spanish law - unless you wrote that while being physically in Spain. Then you would be in hot water... I have mentioned this a couple of times already. ] (]) 23:31, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :Maybe you should just drop it now that you have indeed ''mentioned this a couple of times already''. And maybe you should read ] while you are at it, calling an editor a could be considered a personal attack, I certainly think it is.--] (]) 02:31, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ] Drop what? Have I started this discussion? Someone is requesting me being blocked indefinitely from wikipedia. Apology of terrorism is not an insult or a slander. It is a rather common phenomenon in Spain, which is why it has had to be criminalized (it is offensive to the victims of those murdered). As an example, only two days ago, a basque local chapter of a major national party Podemos refused to condemn the recent ISIS attacks in Brussels because they felt that being requested to condemn a terrorist attack is an oppressive restriction of their freedom of speech. Such is the country in which we live, sadly....] (]) 16:40, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :You ] an editor by calling them a serial terrorist apologist, and have yet to apologize for the personal attack. Then, you continue to insult them and ] at them by calling them and state they have nothing to "fear" (in scare quotes). And up above you accused them of "breaking the law in a pretty vile way" and also informed them that if they revert any of your edits, they could be held criminally liable for their editing here on Misplaced Pages. My suggestion to you is if you have a problem with the content of the article, then discuss ways to improve the content, and stop discussing the editor, or you risk being blocked.--] (]) 21:05, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ] (] If someone honestly tries to argue that I am restricting their human rights and they are now living "in fear" because of me, do not expect me NOT to poke fun at them. I suggest you stop portraying me as some sort of mafioso thug or member of the Stasi and we just move on from this silly discussion. I sure have. ] (]) 15:04, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :Making a false claim against an editor can also be considered a personal attack and is clearly disruptive. Please provide evidence in the form of diffs where I portrayed/stated/said/claimed/alleged/implied that you are "some sort of mafioso thug" and/or a "member of the Stasi", or kindly retract that false statement. Thanks and please read ] as well.--] (]) 21:08, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :While you may have moved on, your comments concerning authorities and potential criminal liability leave a chilling effect on discussion. If you wish to move on with meaningful discussion, you would do well to redact such comments. Making light of the concerns of others at your comments is disrespectful and not conducive to collaboration. ] (]) 02:04, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ] What exactly would you like me to retract? I found an article which was an ode to terrorist group ETA and the convicted killers who are its members and a justification of their "armed struggle", peppered with outright lies. I tried to tone down the terrorism apology and was promptly reverted. Criminal liability is a reality, I mentioned it and was careful not to threaten anybody. Those editors who feel "fear", do not fear me but the justice system of a democratic european country, otherwise they would simply brush off my comments as lunacy or as idiotic. Note that nobody involved has actually denied my statements here. They have just complained that me pointing to the fact that apology of terrorism is a crime makes them feel fearful and uncomfortable. Why do they feel fearful? Do they think I am some kind of psycho serial killer who is going to track them down and kill them in their homes? No! Obviously not! Their fear amounts to accepting that they are engaging in this activity. So, tell me again, what should I retract exactly? | |||
| ] My claims are no less false than yours, where you say I use scare quotes, when they are just that... quotes citing someone. Anyone who says, implies I am being threatening is also engaging in a personal attack against my character, particularly when I have made it clear on multiple occasions I have no intention to harm anyone - quite the opposite really. | |||
| 12:52, 29 March 2016 (UTC)] (]) | |||
| :Fear is not the issue here. The issue is that you are saying things that are hard to interpret in any other way than legal threats. You have been told to stop, but you don't seem to get the message. You need to understand that you can't do that. It's perfectly understandable that you didn't know about that rule, but now you do. --] (]) 12:57, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Ok, ], well I simply won't bring up the argument again. I will try to use Misplaced Pages-specific arguments like NPOV etc... | |||
| But, as my final explanation: They were never meant to be threats. If we were discussing something else and we all lived in China or North Korea or some country which was not within the EU (where human rights and freedom of speech are pretty much guaranteed), then maybe yes - it would be threatening somehow. I bring up the point of illegality precisely to underline that this type of editing is on the same level as holocaust / armenian genocide denial (illegal in other normal countries like France and Germany). In these countries freedom of speech is not more curtailed than it is on wikipedia. | |||
| If something is illegal in Spain, or Germany or France it is going to be contrary to wikipedia policy. If someone defaced the holocaust article with a German I.P. writing 'Burn the Jews' or 'the holocaust is a lie', I don't think any of you guys would complain if I mentioned that such editing is illegal in Germany. Anyways, as I said, I will not use this argument anymore since it seems to be misinterpreted.14:33, 29 March 2016 (UTC)] (]) | |||
| :What you intend them to be is much less important than how they are perceived. And it is threatening now as well. Glad to see that you agree to stop doing this, but I would like to point out that you call it an argument, and it isn't an argument. It is, at best, telling somebody that he is putting himself in danger by expressing a certain view. That is not an argument against that view, or even an argument against expressing that view. It is simply not an argument. So yes, please, use "Misplaced Pages specific" arguments only. This is in fact a good rule in general, the only arguments made should be based on Misplaced Pages principles such as NPOV and RS, etc. I might start calling it "Misplaced Pages specific arguments" in the future. :-) --] (]) 14:45, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ]I saw it as an ], but yes overall I agree with you and I will avoid arguments which are personal and can be perceived as aggressive. Thanks for your feedback and patience.] (]) 15:19, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :There is no misinterpretation of anything in the legal threats and personal attacks described and linked above, it is what everybody can see it is. The above WP username has clearly a expiry date, it is troll and needs to be dealt with. Sadly my concern is that the editor may be perceiving s/he actually can get away with ], and keep shifting his/her attitudes as convenient, since the only thing s/he gets is a telling-off here, despite the obvious insistence in his/her ways (see Talk page of Basque conflict, "Come on Iñaki LL stop being a wimp. :-)", sic!). The editor has not yet asked for apologies or retracted from his/her specific personal attacks against me, in the slightest. ] (]) 20:26, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::And the above is ], and just as much disruptive and ] editing as you accuse others of. The ] should not call the kettle black. You should all step back and cool down, and then try to edit in a calm rational manner. If you find this impossible, then perhaps none of you should edit topics related to Basque issues, as you all have clear problems keeping cool and neutral. --] (]) 20:53, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Whaaat? Are we really talking about the same thing? Please do not tell "you all" (or cite WP:BATTLE...) check who has said/done what since this started. I do not have anything to do with that user in whatever sense, please feel free to check short and long term histories, Ok? The fact that this is remaining here so long (sic) with such a clear set of evidence and still no decision made is a matter of concern for WP editors believing in criteria, evidence based operation. At the end of the day, the editors complaining irregular behaviours must take the whole burden of the proof, collect and bring the evidence, but for what? So far, I do not know really. I could also spot this ''customization'' of the article , while legal threats and lack of trust were being discussed here. Note the near total absence of explanation lines. ] (]) 22:04, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::You are engaging in ] behavior, personal attacks, and seem unable to ]. I recommended you to cool down already a week ago, you still have not cooled down. --] (]) 08:04, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ], I'm not engaging more on this topic and as agreed will modify my behavior, but ] I think it is not quite accurate to say you have no history with me, you once falsely accused me and a bunch of other wikipedians of sockpuppetry, don't you remember? They were pretty insane and baseless accusations, we were all pretty upset about (although I seem to recall I wasn't your main target). Look here, ] (]) 10:33, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :Yeah, sure ], its winding down, no action against or no consequences for the perpetrator, s/he has not even asked for apologies, and not required to either, the evidence is there, so there is no more blind than s/he who does not want to see. The (in)congruence in each one's interventions and statements in the overall histories is telling enough. | |||
| :{{User|Asilah1981}}, both sentences are next to each other separated with a comma, but what I mean is I do not have anything to do with you in the attitudes or other, understand? (I made my point above, so I am not elaborating, not either in the astonishing case of the article you cited, where I engaged in discussion in its moment, yes!). However, should you engage in WP regular and collaborative editing, that should be fine with me. I am not wasting more time here. Anyone can check my history to know what my contribution is and what yours is on your history, my userpage talk is there and yours is also there for anyone to check, also the frontpages. (Sigh...) ] (]) 21:37, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| == Packerfansam still removing content for POV reasons == | |||
| In 2015, ] was for repeatedly removing content related to non-Christian religions, LGBT people, pornography, magic, and so on. No action was taken due to a lack of consensus. Since then, Packerfansam has continued her behavior. (Some of these diffs might be individually defensible; the pattern is not.) After collecting those diffs, I warned her in September 2015 to stop. I stopped keeping track of her after that warning, so I don't have a complete list of newer diffs, but she is apparently still bowdlerizing articles. ] has fortunately continued to revert her removals and has warned her repeatedly since. Just today, she mention of a Playboy model. On March 21 she a porn actress and the "magician". I think she's had enough warnings. ] (]) 00:16, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :I'm going to wait for ] to respond to this before making an opinion/judgment here. ]<sup><small><b>] ]</b></small></sup> 00:55, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::As KateWishing notes, I've been restoring these excisions from time to time. Here is a partial list of questionable removals of content I've restored since September: | |||
| :::September 27 - without comment from ], mentions of places of worship for Muslims, Unitarians and Jews, while adding information about Episcopalians. | |||
| :::October 15 - At , she removed a reliably-sourced quote from Turner declaring himself to be agnostic, claiming that it was “contradicted” by information elsewhere in article, when the excised information was more recent than the “contradictory” text. | |||
| :::October 28 - At she deleted without comment a former Playboy Playmate from the list of notable people. | |||
| :::November 24 - “porn actor and activist” from description of a notable person, when that is largely the basis of their notability | |||
| :::November 25 - description of notable resident ] from “magician” to “performer”, when notability of the subject (]'s younger brother in fact) was specifically as a "magician" | |||
| :::December 4 - description of notable alumnus ] from “magician” to “performer”, when Hamman was known specifically for his innovative magic techniques | |||
| :::December 6 - phrase, “of disputed gender” on the dab page leading to an article of a surgeon whose notability largely rested on this fact | |||
| :::December 10 - from a list of local churches in ] on the ground that it is “not a church”. | |||
| :::December 28 - “paranormal investigator” from the description of an alumnus (following a prior reversion of the same excision) | |||
| :::January 3 - “porn actor and activist” from description of notable person, when that is largely basis of their notability | |||
| :::January 7 - At she once again deleted a former Playboy Playmate from the list of notable people without comment. | |||
| :::January 10 - without comment a notable “erotic actress” from a list of ] | |||
| :::January 23 - without comment "magician" from the description of notable alumnus and magician John Hamman | |||
| :::February 7 - without comment the Playmate from ] | |||
| :::March 20 - without comment notable adult actress and Cleveland native ] from ] | |||
| :::March 21 - , yet again, the term “magician” from the description of John Hamman | |||
| :::March 22 - following my comment to her on her Talk page she the inaccurate term "illusionist" for "magician" to describe John Hamman | |||
| :::March 23 - mention of a Playboy playmate from a list of notable residents | |||
| ::] (]) 02:02, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::*Looks like a content dispute to me. Take, for example, your last diff. The porn actress removed is not notable and doesn't appear to be from Kent. --] (]) 02:51, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::*I disagree. The ] says the person is from ]. Canterbury is in ]. And, while the woman now appears here in a List of Playboy playmates rather than in a standalone article, a standalone article was in place unchallenged on any notability basis before it was consolidated with the List, as redundant of it. As for the rest of the edits above, most - if not all - are indefensible as good faith, objective revisions, but rather reflect the POV of the editor. ] (]) 03:55, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::The ANI link at the top of this entry contains a couple of summaries of the editing that prompted that original posting (which was mine). That discussion also reads in an uncommonly linear fashion down as far as the collapsed text, for those who are understandably daunted by revisiting the ANI archives. A partial list of similar, post-ANI edits can be found , under the heading "Packerfansam". I suggest that folks give those two locations a look to assist in understanding the concerns that KateWishing has raised. These and the prior edits are all of a piece. ] (]) 11:55, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *The pattern of editing seems rather clear and problematic. The <s>two past ANIs</s> past discussions (] and ) strongly suggest a long-term pattern that shows no signs of abating. I would like to hear from {{U|Packerfansam}} before voting on {{U|KateWishing}}'s proposal below. That might take a day or so though. ] ] <small>Please {{]}}</small> 22:21, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :*Yes, it's a good idea to be patient. She can sometimes go a week between edits. (BTW that second link I provided is a Talk page discussion, not an ANI.) ] (]) 22:43, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{re|JohnInDC}} Thanks for pointing that out. Fixed! ] ] <small>Please {{]}}</small> 00:35, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Thank you for your patience. Frankly, yes there are a number of things that I disagree about with regards to things like notability. However, there are some instances listed above that I take issue with, even factoring in our apparent differences in beliefs. Referring to the edit on Mentor, OH, the section at the time was about local churches, the title of the section was about churches. There didn't seem to be any major concern about it at the time, and if I recall correctly, the title was later changed something along the lines of 'Places of Worship'. Regarding Ted Turner, it had established in the article that he had declared himself no longer an agnostic. I didn't see if there were exact dates attached, but if that's not a contradiction I don't know what is. Regards to the alumnus of Beloit College, no I'm not particularly a fan of his genre, but if I remember right, at the time I was under the impression that he had also hosted something else in a different genre and so 'TV host' as a more general description seemed like it would have worked fine. I could be or could have been confused or remembering wrong. | |||
| I would like to reinforce that if I'm a bit slow in my responses, don't automatically take it as meaning that I'm blowing this off. Thanks. ] (]) 20:04, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :So long as you keep grasping for any semi-plausible reason to remove information that offends you, you're going to keep making these mistakes. You say you removed information about non-Christian religions because of a "Churches" header, because (???), to simplify, and because it was unsourced? No. All of those edits were made for the same reason. ] (]) 22:11, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Given the clarity and specificity of the concerns raised about Packerfansam's POV editing, it is striking how little reassurance she offers that she is careful to edit free from her (acknowledged) POV, or, that she even recognizes the issue as a proper subject of community concern. ] (]) 03:17, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Such a large section, like the one at the Eau Claire page should have been better-sourced (see ]). I would also point out that I've made a number of edits to pages, such as the ones for Pewaukee, Wisconsin and West Bend, Wisconsin, and I made no alterations to sections that apparently stir up this controversy. That would seem to disrupt the so-called pattern. ] (]) 04:00, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ===Edit restriction proposal=== | |||
| Most of Packerfansam's edits are helpful, so a topic ban on certain contentious subjects should resolve the issue. I propose: "Packerfansam may not remove content pertaining to religion, sexuality, magic, or the paranormal." This should not unduly interfere with her primary task of improving political biographies (in case it ever does, I'd be happy to review any edit she suggests). ] (]) 15:10, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :I think this would be better described as an editing restriction. ] ] <small>Please {{]}}</small> 22:23, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' edit restriction (perhaps the better term than “topic ban”). Packerfansam above acknowledges – albeit obliquely – that certain of her beliefs may conflict with Misplaced Pages policy. Previously in a similar context, she has indicated that she has “opinions”, for which she is “willing to take the heat”, . While generally her problematic edits are made without explanation, she has from time to time afforded a glimpse into her thinking by expressly and specifically objecting to material that, by Misplaced Pages standards, is wholly acceptable. (E.g. Playboy Magazine, ; the “notability” of pornographic actresses, ) When confronted, she does not deny a POV or that she edits based on it, but instead picks and defends two or three of her least troublesome edits with explanations that can be at least tied back to proper policies, and foregoes comment on the balance. This has been going on for more than a year. Packerfansam has been made abundantly aware of the problem and yet continues to remove material that offends her personally. Her judgment concerning certain topics simply cannot be trusted and she should be prohibited from making edits relating to them. ] (]) 12:09, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' after seeing Packerfansam's comments above and JohnInDC's comments, which seem like an excellent summary and interpretation of events. Further, given the diffs JohnInDC provided, I think the editing restriction is warranted. <small>Boldly changing section header here to "edit restriction proposal"</small> ] ] <small>Please {{]}}</small> 18:29, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''', I believe a minimal editing restriction could fix the problem here. ] (]) 01:06, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. There is virtually no basis for this restriction. Edits such as are quite appropriate. A formal restriction because she changed "magician" to "illusionist" ? That's ridiculous. Or for removing removing "magician" from the description of ] as Notable alumni from ] ? Again, this is ridiculous. He is notable as a ] Brother and as a magician, but this is a list of notable alumni from ] for which his religious notability is most relevant in a brief description. Contrary to the claims of ], ] does respond to issues raised with her edits. The vast majority of the diffs listed above are OLD, have been previously discussed, and Packerfansam has changed her editing in response to criticism. The few new diffs are almost entirely unproblematic. Let's drop this and handle content issues the Misplaced Pages way by discussion. --] (]) 15:39, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. Agree with analysis of {{u|I am One of Many}}. Further, it is not clear if sufficient dispute resolution has been involved here, and existing processes such as individual ] on specific article talk pages, to draw in previously-uninvolved-editors to comment, could help out here. — ''']''' (]) 15:13, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *:What dispute do you expect us to resolve? Packerfansam has not seriously contested any reversions of her edits and just continues to make similar removals throughout other articles, apparently hoping no one will notice. This thread is about a behavioural pattern and not any specific article. ] (]) 16:19, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *:: I don't believe that is correct. I don't see any significant recent problems. This old issues from last year were discusses and she modified her behavior. Isn't that exactly what we aim for in resolving content issues? --] (]) 20:16, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Almost all of the diffs in this thread post-date the last AN/I. It's a significant problem that people are still having to volunteer their time to make sure she does not remove content because it offends her religious sensibilities. Do you really doubt that's the reason for excisions like or (both well after AN/I and other warnings)? The very most recent removals might not seem as grave, but should we just allow her to remove impious words like "magician" and porn actresses because it's not a big deal? ] (]) 04:10, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ===Close needed=== | |||
| The thread was archived without closure. I restored it. ] (]) 15:00, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| == Personal attacks on article talk pages (Crimea annexation, Aleksandr Dugin) == | |||
| In a current discussion with myself and others at ], ] made a post {{Diff|Talk:Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation|711323672|711314413}} which said very little about specific content questions, but instead accused several other WP users — ], ], and ] — of ''' "POV pushing" ''', ''' "disruptive editing" ''', and presenting arguments with ''' "no good faith" '''. | |||
| I contacted Iryna about this on her user page, sending copies to each of the users she had named {{Diff|User Talk:Iryna Harpy|711528437|711460716}}. Iryna's response was that she found my message "bizarre", she said I was using her user talk page to bully her, and she asked me not to message her user talk page again, except to notify her of a formal complaint. She did however clarify that she does not think Moscow Connection had engaged in disruptive editing or had lacked good faith, though she does think Moscow Connection had pushed POV. She regards her comments about the other two WP users, Tobby72 and Haberstr, as "legitimate criticism". {{Diff|User Talk:Iryna Harpy|711612915|711528437}} | |||
| I noticed a more extreme though less recent personal attack by Iryna Harpy on ] (a somewhat related topic). There she accused another WP user of putting ''' "pineapples up his arse, leafy side up, just to get his juices flowing" '''. {{Diff|Talk:Aleksandr Dugin|647509276|647178622}} Iryna made that comment about 12 months ago, and it is still on that talk page right now (22:21, 22 March 2016) {{Diff|Talk:Aleksandr Dugin|711440398}}, it hasn't been removed or archived, although it is at present in a collapsable/expandable box. | |||
| Iryna is an experienced WP editor, who should know better than to misuse article talk pages in this way. Her actions suggest to me that she has a strong sense of ] in relation to these pages, and wants to push away users who have different views regarding their content. Whatever her motive, the personal attacks she makes are not appropriate for article talk pages, because they don't contribute to civil content discussion. . ] (]) 02:10, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :Those aren't "personal attacks", those are fairly accurate descriptions of these editors' editing practices. Tobby72 in particular has been driving people crazy with his slow motion edit war and attempts to insert text into these articles against consensus which has been going on for something like a year now.] (]) 02:38, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *This section is a nonsense, and should be closed. Iryna is one of the few good faith editors capable of dealing with these articles. She might get frustrated sometimes, but that's a common feature to us all. Furthermore, if one is confronted by the type of disruption that is evident in this very AN/I thread, which is rooted in canvassing, one will inevitably let one's lips slip from time to time. Please shut this thread. ] — ] 02:48, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::RGloucester, you say Iryna is ''' "one of the few good faith editors capable of dealing with these articles" '''. What does your comment say about the others who have tried to deal with the articles, either by making edits or by commenting on the talk pages? Is Misplaced Pages still "the encyclopedia anyone can edit"? Or is it now "the encyclopedia which only a few good faith editors are capable of dealing with"? ] (]) 20:39, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::According to Misplaced Pages's ]: "While the purpose of article talk pages is to discuss the content of articles, the purpose of user talk pages is to draw the attention or discuss the edits of a user." If Iryna had valid criticisms of the way Tobby72 and others have been editting, she should have put her criticisms on their ''user'' talk pages, where they would immediately see what was said, and not on the ''article'' talk page. ] (]) 03:16, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Stop it with the ]. These users, whom you've been encouraging , were disrupting THESE articles hence it made perfect sense for Iryna to comment on THESE articles' talk pages.] (]) 03:20, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{ec}} As predicted on , the user fully intended to canvass in order to embark on a ], posting on 's talk page, on 's talk page, and on 's talk page. The most telling of these have been his/her communications with Haberstr on 21 March where s/he stating {{tq|"Lack of neutrality re Ukraine conflict: I agree with you that WP's coverage of the Ukraine conflict has a neutrality problem, and I respect your efforts to address this problem."}} in a bid to align himself/herself with other users who support his/her POV. Haberstr's response to the "cc" (or, let's start this hunt because ] doesn't seem to be working) makes for . | |||
| :::All of this ducking and diving in and out of ARBEE sanctioned articles, and ]ing editors who are constantly working on them is going to elicit a ] response eventually. Mind you, I have to Moscow Connection for tying him in with the other two. --] (]) 03:25, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Oh, and as an aside, while this ANI is being used to tie up editor and admin time, Haberstr is using his valuable time to keep edit warring . That's NPOV? ''Really''? --] (]) 03:49, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Yes it is NPOV in my opinion. But you disagree, which I respect. Your comment simply illustrates that you don't respect others having a good faith disagreement with you, and you express that disrespect by getting angry and accusatory on talk pages and here. And that is exactly the problematic behavior that fellow editor Kalidasa has asked administrators to do something about. I think I can summarize your response to Kalidasa so far as "I don't understand what Kalidasa is getting at, and here, let me angrily express more assumption of bad faith to make sure everyone knows I don't get it."] (]) 23:37, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Haberstr, you exhausted good faith on the part of other editors participating in these articles years ago. ] — ] 23:42, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Is it possible to stay on the Iryna Harpy behavior topic, and to stop the ad homimen attacks on me? If you have evidence put it on my user talk page.] (]) 00:45, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Where no one will see it? Nah, I think this is the appropriate place for it, which is why I did provide the evidence below.] (]) 04:38, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :What Iryna Harpy said in that post ({{Diff|Talk:Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation|711323672|711314413}}) is reprehensible but utterly routine in my experience with her. In response to Harpy’s allegations: I engage in good faith NPOV editing. My aim is to create Misplaced Pages Ukraine/Russia NPOV entries, i.e., entries that respect the distinction between fact and allegation and are at least inclusive of the two main ‘Cold War II’ perspectives. I hate disruptive editing and resist it as best I can.] (]) 05:37, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :Here are other examples of Harpy’s bullying and threatening language, from the last 12 months of the Crimea Annexation talk page (other examples are at other Ukraine-related pages). All of these were in response to what I think outside editors would regard as polite-or-neutral-in-tone arguments by other editors for RS-based edits that they believed were NPOV: “For the last couple of years, Tobby72 has been POV pushing the same content over and over and over and over and over against consensus. Personally, '''I've had all I can take of his disruptive editing and intentional gaming'''.” 05:05, 15 March 2016; “Haberstr, you're at it again. Drop it …” 22:05, 26 January 2016; “Wow, I'm sincerely impressed by '''your continuing POV pushing''' about how terrific the RF really is, and how much every citizen loves 'em. '''Drop the propaganda, pleaaassseee'''.”; “'''Stop wasting our time'''. How many times are you intending to '''incriminate yourself by gaming'''?” 05:09, 1 April 2015, “Any further envelope-pushing will be understood as WP:POINTy. Please familiarise yourself with this guideline, Tosha, as it is '''just a hair's breadth from tendentious editing''' behaviour.” 04:26, 21 March 2015; “…'''both you and Mobolo and disruptive, tendentious editors'''. … How can it be an ad hominem attack when the nature of '''your continuous POV pushing for unencyclopaedic information''' - which contradicts RS and is '''designed to promote spurious content''' - is antithetical to what the project stands for? As editors, '''you are not even vaguely neutral''', and neither of you can be extricated from the biased, unbalanced content you push. … it's about time you realised that '''your continuous and blatant lack of civility can't be disguised by a dusting of civil POV pushing'''. In fact, we have huge tracts here … demonstrating '''your relentless bad faith disruption'''.” (Highlighting added 25 March) 05:09, 25 March 2015 ] (]) 05:37, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *Looking over some of the edits, this is prime territory for ]. None of Iryna's comments go beyond identification of non-neutral edits. Meanwhile, repeated non-neutral edits in an area subject to discretionary sanctions and an attempt to force out dissenting editors through coordinated action (i.e. canvassing for an ANI) are serious issues. ~ <b>]</b><sup>]</sup> 05:59, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Not sure if this statement is about User:Haberstr or User:Kalidasa 777. Yes, Kalidasa has definitely engaged in disruptive canvassing in this instance. In the case of Haberstr, the problem is compound because: | |||
| ::1. The user has already been warned previously about disruptive canvassing and | |||
| ::2. Previously warned about making controversial, POV, moves and the purposefully salt-ing the redirects so that the moves could not be undone without admin intervention and | |||
| ::3. Has been previously warned multiple times about starting edit wars and edit warring against multiple editors and and . This includes <u>purposefully</u> starting edit wars in the hope of getting an article protected to "their" version | |||
| ::4. Has been previously warned about making personal attacks and using partisan language | |||
| ::5. Haberstr was the subject of WP:AE report which was closed with no action only because it went stale, although three of the commenting admins recommended some form of topic ban (presumably from Russia and Ukraine related topics). | |||
| ::] (]) 06:37, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::I don't assume you are attempting to change the focus of discussion away from an incident report regarding Iryna Harpy's alleged personal attacks, but that is in fact what your comment does. Please stay on topic, which is not my past. Nonetheless, since you have made allegations and claims against me, I will briefly respond: In sum, we have '''"closed with no action ..."''' and your recitation of a small group of 'pro-Ukraine' editors' massive number of 'warnings' against me, based '''completely''' on assuming bad faith. | |||
| :::We all really need to stop assuming other editors are editing in bad faith or assuming other editors are being "disruptive," and then attacking them on the Talk Page, as Iryna has been doing repeatedly for years. Such accusations make Talk Pages toxic and off-putting places, not just for the person over and over again so accused, but also for all newbies and potential newbies who might've wanted to participate in a welcoming editing environment. Regarding Ukraine-related articles specifically, I think it is obvious there is honest disagreement on the meaning of NPOV and POV from the perspectives of the two sides of the (unintentional but inevitable) edit wars regarding Ukraine-related Misplaced Pages entries. There also seems to be good faith disagreement regarding the meaning of consensus, which is also the basis of many angry/rude/dismissive attacks, nearly always by the 'pro-Ukraine' side (including Marek and Iryna) against the other side of the debate. Based on a close reading and good faith understanding of WP:CONS, and on the long-standing and failed efforts to find consensus, I don't believe there is consensus on the array of Ukraine-related Misplaced Pages entries where edit wars unfortunately occur. It is a difficult situation but we nonetheless should be civil and assume good faith.] (]) 08:18, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::''"We all really need to stop assuming other editors are editing in bad faith or assuming other editors are being "disruptive,""'' - you mean like when you went around accusing everyone who disagreed with you (even Russian editors) of "hating Russia"? And the reason edit wars constantly flare up on these articles is because you and some of your buddies just can't stop beating ] and your way of engagement is ]. You're complaints boil down to "why won't they let me push my pov in peace! That's so unjust!" which is why this keeps coming up again and again.] (]) 20:58, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Marek's charges are all false, and he notably has provided no evidence for them. Will he ever actually be on topic. His comments so far have all been off topic. If he feels that Iryna has not been assuming bad faith, why not simply say that, and provide evidence and support for that opinion? I think my first comment on Iryna above, where I've quoted repeated instances where she seemed to me to be assuming bad faith, can serve as a rough model for him.] (]) 23:43, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::''"Marek's charges are all false, and he notably has provided no evidence for them."'' - ahem: . Who do you think the closing comment - "participants are reminded that Misplaced Pages is not a battleground and your fellow Wikipedians are most likely not intelligence operatives" - was directed at? Jimbo Wales? I don't think so.] (]) 00:06, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::You are accusing me of the following:'''you went around accusing everyone who disagreed with you (even Russian editors) of "hating Russia"''' and you have provided no evidence. Please retract the false accusation and apologize. The closing comment was directed at all participants, which included you and Iryna. Please comply with that request. ] (]) 01:28, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| '''Reply to the counter-charge of "canvassing".''' I find it difficult to take this seriously, but it has been raised by a number of wikipedia users (Iryna, RGloucester, and Marek), and ] has indicated that he takes it seriously, so I'll briefly reply. Yes, I put a message on the user talk page of ], expressing approval of some of his work. And, as I've already mentioned, I alerted ], ], and ] to the fact that their editing had been attacked on an article talk page. I also informed them (and Iryna) about this AN/I... Aren't these the sort of matters which user talk pages are for?? Am I missing something here? ] (]) 07:54, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| '''Do Iryna's comments go beyond identification of non-neutral edits?''' @ ] Please take another look at the diffs I've already presented. The first, on the Crimea article talk page is a generalised attack on 3 WP users. It states that they've been engaged in dispute about the article for a long period, during which '''"no good faith argument"''' was ever presented by them...{{Diff|Talk:Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation|711323672|711314413}} Iryna has already admitted that her comments in relation to at least one of these users, ] , was unwarranted. The other is her statement on the Aleksandr Dugin article talk page about the user who she says has ''' "pineapples up his arse" '''.{{Diff|Talk:Aleksandr Dugin|647509276|647178622}} A civil comment?? ] (]) 08:13, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :{{ping|Kalidasa 777}} Let's take a look at how honest you're being about the comment on the Dugan talk page, shall we? is the actual context in which I expressed myself in December of 2014 when the bio was inundated by 'interested' ], ]'s, ]ers from both the pro-Ukrainian and pro-Russian sides, as well as multiple IP's crippling the article and ]ing on the talk page. Yes, the section got heated with regular users starting to loose their cool... which is why I suggested collapsing it (and did so). Such is the way with high traffic articles when the annexation of Crimea was still fresh, and the war in Donbass very, very fresh in an encyclopaedia that anyone can edit and certainly does... relentlessly and abusively... across a multitude of related articles. Now, who started the thread. So is , and . Are you getting the picture? - Have disposable accounts, will act as ''agent provocateur''. Please desist from ]ing through my editing history. As I already explained to you on my talk page, I in posting that 'warning', and you've gone out of your way to make it come true. The fact that you are holding a personal ] against me for disagreeing with you on both the ] article and the ] articles does not speak well to your editing priorities. --] (]) 09:32, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::The user you're talking about has acknowledged use of multiple accounts, and has given an explanation at ]. If you thought they were using the accounts improperly, WP has processes for dealing with that. See ]. I do not see how that could justify what you said about the pineapple in the rectum {{Diff|Talk:Aleksandr Dugin|647509276|647178622}}, nor what you've just said about ''' "agent provocateur" '''. ] (]) 10:00, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::No, you haven't followed the contributions. It was not the user who was self-identifying, it was another editor who was trailing this user's SOCKs (see ). The notifications on the user page were all placed there by the editor tracking this SPA and + + . This is ''not'' a valid use of alternative accounts, and the user was ] but, rather, was only interested in ], pushing their own POV, and harassing editors (, )... and not to forget all the fun of conducting 'discussions' with himself/herself (see ). Quixotic tirades on article talk pages ≠ the user really is a nice person who feels deeply outraged by the injustices of the world. In this case, the user's intent was to be as disruptive as possible in order to soapbox and get their own way which ''does'' equal agent provocateur. Who wastes the time of those who work on SPIs when the user is opening new accounts using their existing accounts? Also, please drop the pineapples: you've really done them to death. --] (]) 21:23, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::''"The user you're talking about has acknowledged use of multiple accounts"'' - maybe so, but that doesn't change the fact that Iryna's characterization of that account by the phrase "Have disposable accounts, will act as ''agent provocateur''" is exactly spot on. This in fact has been a recurring problem on this topic - throw away accounts that show up, start a lot of trouble, start edit wars, start drama board discussions demanding that they be allowed to push their POV and that anyone who disagrees with them be banned... oh wait... ] (]) 00:13, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *I do not see as especially problematic. She tells about "dropping the stick". Yes, guys, pleased drop the stick. As about her claims of POV-pushing by other contributors, such claims are very common in this subject area and ''are usually true''. Starting an ANI thread every time when someone claims "POV-pushing" is extremely disruptive. She mentioned three contributors, but only one of them (Haberstr) felt offended by her comment. Others said nothing here. Actually, I must agree with her that Haberstr does POV-pushing. Why exactly user Kalidasa777 started this battleground request on behalf of Haberstr is not entirely clear. Perhaps there is a reason, but I am not sure. ] (]) 21:51, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Re: the statement "Others said nothing here". No longer true. See Tobby72's post below. ] (]) 23:10, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :: Perhaps there is a reason, yes. I started this ANI (not "on behalf of Haberstr" or anyone else) because Iryna's recent post doesn't just allege "POV pushing". Iryna wrote: "There has been '''no good faith''' argument brought to the table, and this is really starting to get way beyond another irritating bit of POV pushing." (emphasis added) {{Diff|Talk:Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation|711323672|711314413}} It was especially this denial of GF which I objected to, even though I wasn't one of the 3 WP users she named. That is why I took the step of complaining directly to Iryna on her user talk page. And her negative response left me no other option but to begin this ANI. | |||
| :: As Haberstr has mentioned, in an earlier posting to the Crimea article talk page, Iryna used the expression ''' "relentless bad faith disruption" '''. {{Diff|Talk:Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation|653417675}} You really see nothing problematic in that sort of language, My very best? As for the expression "dropping the stick", I quite like it. Perhaps it's time for Iryna to do a little stick-dropping herself, by withdrawing her claims of bad faith? ] (]) 23:40, 24 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::So, she responded you on her talk page, which left you "no other option but to begin this ANI". OK, but prior to staring this ANI thread you suppose to ask her some details (or investigate yourself) if she was right or wrong about this, meaning you must be sure these two users were not in fact ]. Did you check what these users did on various pages? Why are you sure they were not in fact disruptive, exactly as she said? ] (]) 00:08, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::No, I didn't need to establish whether she what she said on the article talk page is right or wrong. Because even if she had a valid complaint about behaviour of other editors, an article talk page is not the right place to put her complaint. See ]. ] (]) 00:51, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::*The right place to complain about bad behavior of these editor would be ]. However, instead of complaining about them on WP:AE, she simply said them: "hey people, please drop the stick and follow WP:Consensus", except that she said this using a slightly rougher language. That was <u>commendable</u> as something to actually minimize the conflicts and disruption. But instead of following her advice, you guys brought this to WP:ANI, which you know is not the place for resolving these disputes (the place is WP:AE). ''That'' is WP:Battle by ''you''. ] (]) 03:42, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Not "you guys", My very. This ANI was started solely at my own initiative. The policy page ] says that serious incivility can be reported to ANI if the matter can't be resolved via the user talk page. Since this ANI discussion started, you're the first to suggest that it should go to AE instead. Maybe you're right though. ] (]) 05:09, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::No, I did not suggest to submit your request to WP:AE because your request is without merit: you suggest to punish a good contributor and protect more biased and disruptive contributors. I do agree, however, that people should not discuss each other on article talk pages, even when discussion is heated. They must definitely realize that. ] (]) 14:20, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Really, Kalidasa 777? Hmm, have you taken a look at the article's ? Please elaborate on how this demonstrates any form of good faith editing on behalf on Haberstr. He is edit warring against multiple other editors, including editors who have not spoken up here or on the talk page (but who are aware of what the consensus is, and that this is pure edit warring behaviour on his behalf). Stop defending the indefensible and casting ] as to my editing practices. You're persisting with this hunt despite having had it being demonstrated that you are way off base. I'm getting really tired of having to defend myself against someone who has made it clear that this is personal, and that they have an ]. This has gotten to the point where even I'm going to say that you truly deserve a ]. --] (]) 00:04, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::There is no consensus, as is obvious from the edit history and the talk page history. I am not edit warring but simply inserting what I consider an NPOV and RS edit. As we all know, there are multiple long-standing and unresolved content disputes on various Ukraine-related pages. For years I and many others have attempted to discuss these civilly on the articles' talk pages, and have also made good faith edits based on our understanding of NPOV. Both sides in the current content dispute noted by Iryna '''I assume are making edits in good faith'''. Unfortunately Iryna does not, and this makes all of the Ukraine-related talk pages extremely toxic and extremely anti-Wikipedian experiences.] (]) 01:10, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::In the case of Tobby72, "relentless bad faith disruption" is exactly what has happened. From the start of this article, he has kept inserting PoV content into the article hidden behind benign edit summaries. When he is reverted, he stops editting for a few days and comes back, inserting the same material. If a talk page discussion occurs, he ignores it, and keeps reinserting the material. He has been doing this for years. Just going back to 17 October 2015, as that is as far as I care to go right now, , along with tons of pictures. The pictures, which are irrelevant to the article, are meant to hide the insertion of the GfK poll, the inclusion of which had been previously discussed and determined to be ]. When the content is removed again, per that previous discussion, Tobby to reinsert it with "relevant, cited" as the edit summary, which is totally nonsense. He is reverted again, of course. That's not enough for Tobby72, however. He comes back on to reinsert the content again, calling the removal "politically motivated", and claiming in his ES that he is restoring a "stable version", a clearly false statement on any basis. on 3 March 2016 to do the same thing, and . This is just slow motion edit-warring, nothing more than disruption. ] — ] 00:11, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::THIS ^^^^^^^. Tobby72's behavior on this set of articles has been nothing short of ridiculous. The fact that someone can carry on a slow motion edit war against multiple editors for more than a year and who insists so blatantly on playing ], and who uses misleading edit summaries to mask the fact that they're just trying to restore the same POV text over and over again (for over a year!) and THEN turns around and accuses others of "being disruptive" just takes the cake. It's an insult to the reader's intelligence it's so transparently dishonest.] (]) 00:00, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::The good faith interpretation of Tobby72's behavior: 1) He/she does not believe there is a consensus. 2) He/she adds an RS source that he/she believes is NPOV in order to solve what he/she believes is the POV bias in a section of text. 3) He/she is frustrated by the very-long-term and repetitious attacks on his/her character and good faith and on what he/she believes are his/her efforts to improve various Misplaced Pages entries. This phenomenon has happened to several other good faith editors who have tried to edit the Ukraine-related articles in a way they believed was NPOV, but whose conception of NPOV conflicted with the beliefs of Iryna/Marek/Gloucester/Wishes, the first three of whom then attacked their character and good faith. I get where Tobby72 is coming from.] (]) 01:52, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::*User:RGloucester (btw, this user has been repeatedly blocked for disruptive behavior - ) : "''... and claiming in his ES that he is restoring a "stable version", a clearly false statement on any basis.''" — Actually, it was stable version, inserted on , removed on . "''.. the insertion of the GfK poll, the inclusion of which had been previously discussed and determined to be WP:UNDUE''" — No consensus has been reached on this, see , , , , , , . | |||
| ::::::::::*User:Volunteer Marek : ''... and who uses misleading edit summaries"'' — Evidently, the phrase "pot calling the kettle black" means nothing to you - , , , , . -- ] (]) 15:06, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'd agree that edit warring, fast or slow, is not the best way to resolve content issues. The best way is by means of civil discussion on the talk page. Personal attacks on article talk pages are a bad idea, because they make it impossible to have that civil discussion about content. ] (]) 01:00, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Certain users are constantly involved in edit warring over it, see — '''Iryna Harpy''': , . '''Volunteer Marek''': , , , , . '''My very best wishes''': . '''RGloucester''': , . Numerous discussions have taken place, all resulting in no consensus, see , , . | |||
| ::::Vague accusations like ], ], ], "disruptive and bad faithed" , , are leveled at other editors in an obvious attempt to silence them. I would also note that my experience has shown that ] is constantly rude and offensive towards other editors — “Because youtube is not being used as a source. A video on youtube is being used as a source. This has already been explained to both you and Tobby72 so '''how about the two of you quit playing dumb.'''” 23:40, 30 August 2015; “'''exactly how many fucking times have you been warned''' about making personal attacks and accusing others of being "anti-Russian"? It's not only insulting but moronic. ... '''Please stop being a ridiculous thoughtless jerk'''.” 21:39, 13 September 2015; “'''Will you please stop posting idiotic nonsense to Misplaced Pages talk pages?''' RT comments section is somewhere.” 2:40, 9 February 2015; “Yes it was discussed there and ... THE FREAKIN' CONSENSUS WAS AGAINST YOU!!!! Stop playing disruptive WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT games.” 17:39, 3 May 2015. | |||
| ::::] has been repeatedly retiring and unretiring, often several times a week, since 2013, see , , . Is this behavior appropriate? - -- ] (]) 15:22, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::What it is, is none of your business.] (]) 22:53, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::And Tobby72, you do realize what your diffs '''actually show''', right? They show that you've been involved in a freakin' '''year long edit war''' against '''multiple editors''' and that your level of disruption has reached truly '''ridiculous''' proportions. Here's what you've been doing: consensus was against you. But instead of moving on and dropping the stick '''you've been coming back to the same articles and trying to make the same edits about once every two weeks driving other editors crazy in the process'''.] (]) 23:56, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::There's no consensus: consensus means everyone is on the same page. The fact of the matter is you having unjustifiably and consistently removed well-documented and sourced information from reliable sources. ... Volunteer Marek's year long edit war against multiple editors: , , , . -- ] (]) 15:06, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I agree with Marek that if an editor wants to take a wikibreak, that's their own business. It's certainly preferable to insulting people. I agree with Tobby72 about the rude and offensive language Marek has repeatedly used on WP talk pages. Examples like "ridiculous thoughtless jerk" and "not only insulting but moronic" help me to understand why Marek sees nothing wrong with Iryna's rather similar behaviour. ] (]) 23:29, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Gimme a break. The "not only insulting but moronic" was a comment directed at a user who was falsely accusing me of bigotry. And not only were they falsely accusing me of it, they were also implying that a prominent Russian journalist was "anti-Russian". And guess, what? It was THAT user that got ban-hammered. Deservedly so.] (]) 00:04, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Please have a look at the policy page ], Volunteer Marek. "If others are uncivil, do not respond in kind." ] (]) 00:25, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::I did engage in civil discussion on the talk page, as tobby72 has, and as you have. There is no responsive discussion, and no consensus.] (]) 01:10, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::You've only started "being civil" (while still POV pushing like crazy, per ]) after you came within a hair's breadth of getting indef banned because you were running around accusing anyone who disagreed with you of "hating Russians" and of being CIA operatives and the like.] (]) 00:04, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::No matter why Haberstr started being civil, the fact remains that he did start. The diffs presented here, and your response to them, show that Marek and Iryna Harpy have ''not yet started'' being consistently civil to people who disagree with them.] (]) 01:25, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Yes, of course everyone assumes good faith on your behalf, Haberstr. Let's see: ah, . I'm not even going to mention prior AE encounters as to your good faith, nor how many times EdJohnston has been called in to examine both your good faith and Tobby72's good faith. Donning all of the trappings of being civil is not civility, it's ]. Again, my calling ] is a matter of having had enough of the GAMING. --] (]) 03:42, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Iryna, good to have you back. Once again, though, you assume bad faith on my part. I am not sure why you do that. I assume you are in good faith editting the Ukraine-related articles in an NPOV manner, and I don't know why you don't assume I am doing the same. The problem here is entirely about you assuming bad faith, and expressing that assumption, on the part of all editors who just happen to disagree with your perspective -- and there have been many over the years, most of whom have abandoned editing the pages in the face of withering attacks on their good character. All Kalidasa and I are trying to do is to get you to stop attacking people's motives. Attacking substance is fine, but attacking motives based on 'reading minds' is not.] (]) 05:37, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| '''Update — New claims of "bad faith" on Crimea talk page''' Since this ANI began, there have been two further postings on the Crimea annexation article talk page which contain the words ''' "bad faith" '''. One by Volunteer Marek {{Diff|Talk:Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation|711675425|711664801}}, the other by Iryna Harpy. {{Diff|Talk:Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation|711677950|711675425}} ] (]) 00:35, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Can you stop bolding your comments for no reason, as if they were way more important than they really are''' ? 04:58, 25 March 2016 (UTC) <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> | |||
| ::I've bolded key words to prevent them being lost among walls of text. Unlike some people, I've also signed each of my comments. ] (]) 05:19, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Come on, I don't want to see emboldened phrases present 332 times somewhere on every line. --<span style="font-family:'Tahoma',Geneva,sans-serif">] <small>(] 📖 ])</small></span> 05:26, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Hello QEDK. I'd love to read your comment on the substance (rather than the style) of my incident report. ] (]) 06:19, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Unless we want to consider a ] against User:Kalidasa 777 for disruptive canvassing or against Tobby72 for his year long edit warring and misleading use of edit summaries to mask it, I'm pretty sure this conversation is going nowhere.] (]) 00:10, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::I think that there are more users disagreeing with Volunteer's POV, than those who support it, but Volunteer Marek, Iryna Harpy, My very best wishes and RGloucester are more determined to keep things as they are. | |||
| ::— User:Alex Bakharev — , User:Dstary — , User:Anonimski — , User:MyMoloboaccount — , User:Seryo93 — , User:LeoKiev01 — , User:Kudzu1 — , User:Buzz105 — , User:Tobby72 — , User:Haberstr — . As far as '']'' goes, I think it's a reliable source. -- ] (]) 15:06, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :Iryna is hypocritical, having accused me of bias just because I removed a section full of POV content that happened not to match with this person who may be called "frantically pro-American" by some of my acquaintances ] (]) 03:41, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Hmmm, there's no such removal in your edit history which means that you're referring to something you must've done with some other account. So... yet another throw away account trying to create controversy, abusing multiple accounts, etc. etc. etc. same ol' story which is so old by now it's not even annoying anymore, just stupid.] (]) 06:17, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::I think the IP user is referring to an edit to the article ]. Yes, it is there in the user's edit history, and yes, it was reversed by Iryna... It's perhaps only marginally relevant to the question of personal attacks on the Crimea and Dugin article talk pages. But there's no need to ], Marek. ] (]) 09:55, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{re|Kalidasa 777}} The IP was actually referring to two articles they'd made POV removals of content from, one of them being the removal of important content from an infobox. Despite my being 99.999% certain that the IP is someone I can identify for ], I responded to their 'query' (although I use that term as being extremely loosely construed) on my talk page . The removal of information in the second article is particularly ludicrous given that their fighting the Nazis was attested to at the Nuremberg trials. Nonetheless, I have treated the IP as a fallible human being who may likely be uninformed, and making errors in judgement based on a lack of knowledge of the subject matter. --] (]) 22:24, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::{{re|Iryna Harpy}}You've claimed to be 99.999% certain that the IP user is violating ], but you've offered zero proof. When will you stop making unsubstantiated attacks on WP users? ] (]) 05:04, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::{{re|Kalidasa 777}} Because I know where the IP is operating from, just for starters. In my response the the IP, however, I treated any suspicions as being absolutely irrelevant as I did not revert them because they are probably the user I have in mind: I reverted them for removing valid content without so much as an edit summary, only to have them leave a response on my page telling me that I'm not a neutral editor, and that they think that their removals were based on somehow being just instead of just being uninformed ]. So, when are ''you'' going to stop scraping the bottom of the barrel in your campaign to discredit me because you're floundering to save face over having started a badly investigated, badly thought out ANI out of some sort of sense of superiority and self-righteous witch hunt? Now that you have the ball rolling, it's rolling right over you and, rather than back down and preserve a little dignity, you feel compelled to have the ] and ] the day. You've elicited input from uninvolved editors and admins, yet none have rallied around you in support as you had hoped would happen. Initially, I actually felt a little sorry for you, having given you credit for being inadvertently caught up in a highly complex and long running ]ing campaign by Habserstr and Tobby because you're not an experienced editor. Your ongoing admonishments bogged down in any petty incident you can scratch up has, sadly, left me in no doubt that this is not the result of jumping into the editing deep-end by throwing yourself into the most controversial areas of Misplaced Pages without having any idea of the history of these articles... so, with this last 'reprimand', you've truly and finally lost any of my sympathy or support toward you. --] (]) 05:50, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::{{re|Iryna Harpy}} You say your have suspicions about IP 116.31.83.159. What is your suspicions happen to be wrong? What is this person is a genuine newby, and is watching this page to see how you and others respond to his/her comment here? Do you think the flame you've just written is a good introduction to Misplaced Pages? ] (]) 19:29, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Iryna Harpy also routinely engages in accusations of bad faith in her Edit Summaries: | |||
| ”'''Do not edit war, or engage in disruptive editing'''.” “'''Stop your WP:POV pushing'''. Take your issues to the talk page instead of '''edit warring'''.” ” Don't just modify or remove content '''because you JUSTDONTLIKEIT.'''” ” If you want to refactor the lead to reflect the RF narrative '''per WP:POV pushing''', take it to the talk page instead of '''sneaking in changes''' under misleading WP:ES.” ” Rv WP:UNDUE + '''WP:POV pushing''' for lead.” ” you are using '''misleading WP:ES to POV push'''.” "'''blatant POV refactoring'''.” ”no discussion over '''WP:POV use of 'incorporation''''] (]) 05:20, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :Because you are acting in bad faith.] (]) 06:17, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :More precisely, looking through these diffs, it seems pretty much '''every single description is accurate'''. So all you're proving here is that you have been in fact editing disruptively and in bad faith, and just got called out on it. Remind me why you shouldn't be topic banned (and a hefty block as a warning to stop this kind of ]ing behavior is warranted too)? ] (]) 06:19, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Again, there is zero evidence for your contention that I, tobby, or kalidasa are editing in bad faith. I'm not sure what you consider evidence. Is it possible that you think that editos who have a perspective different from yours on NPOV are always POV-pushing and therefore acting in bad faith? Assumption of bad faith on that basis creates an exceptionally abusive editing environment, as we readily see from your and Iryna's comments.] (]) 13:35, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::No, you actually managed to provide the evidence yourself. Every single one of those diffs shows that you were doing exactly of what Iryna said you were doing. What's worse, saying that a user "is acting in bad faith", as Iryna did, or actually acting in bad faith, as you and your buddies are doing? ] (]) 18:49, 26 March 2016 (UTC). | |||
| ::::Now Marek is also accusing me and others of bad faith editing. Again I ask you and Iryna to stop doing that, since there is no evidence and it is very unpleasant being constantly accused of bad character and bad motives. That I insert edits you don't like, because you and I have a different point of view on NPOV, is not evidence of bad faith. Please stop making the current discussion toxic, and please stop making the annexation talk page discussion toxic. And that goes back, always, to you (and Iryna) learning what 'bad faith' and 'evidence of bad faith' mean.] (]) 13:04, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ''' Summary of the problem ''' | |||
| :1. A few days ago, Iryna Harpy used the Crimea annexation article talk page to accuse 3 other editors (Tobby72, Haberstr, and Moscow Connection) of faults including "no good faith". Regarding one of these editors (Moscow Connection), she afterwards withdrew her accusation. Regarding the other two, she did not withdraw. She has since again used the same article talk page to accuse people of "bad faith". Another editor, Volunteer Marek has followed her example by also making accusations of "bad faith" on the article talk page. | |||
| :2. Accusing someone of "bad faith" (in other words, bad ''motive'') is more personal and serious than criticising something they did. It is like accusing someone of vandalism — deliberately harmful editing. Besides, article talk pages are supposed to be there for discussing content, not for criticising other editors. | |||
| :3. This is not a case of previously civil editors who suddenly snapped. Haberstr, Tobby72 and I have presented diffs above which show that both Iryna and Marek have a long history of making personal attacks against multiple people on article talk pages, including extreme expressions like "pineapples up his arse" (quote from Iryna) and "ridiculous thoughtless jerk" (quote from Marek). Iryna and Marek haven't denied these incivilities, instead they have talked about faults of the people they attacked, apparently wanting to show that their flagrant incivility was well deserved. | |||
| :4. Iryna and Marek have complained about edit warring. However, edit wars are frequent in WP, generally have two sides, and are symptoms of a dispute about content. A content dispute is best addressed by civil discussion. Surely not by misusing an article talk page to attack the ''motives'' of others. | |||
| :5. Iryna and Marek have complained here about "canvassing" by me in relation to this ANI. In fact I did one thing Iryna herself should have done but did not do — I contacted each of the persons she recently attacked by name on the Crimea article talk page, and let them know what she had said about them. I also notified each of them, and Iryna, about this ANI. That was canvassing? ] (]) 08:52, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Latest insulting prose by Iryna at the Annexation page : ''Talk about wrapping a paradigm into an enigma, then stuffing it in a won-ton wrapper and asking someone their opinion on whether the weather is 'good', 'bad' or 'indifferent' compared to nothing other than what kind of weather they like.'' 02:27, 26 March 201. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> | |||
| ::Thanks to {{u|Drmies}} for discovering that... I got lost. But it would be interesting to know ''why'' {{u|Kalidasa 777}} felt the need to try and hide another editor's post; particularly giving the somewhat lame reason that it had been left unsigned. ] <sup>''''']'''''</sup> 21:08, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Hi Fortuna. I didn't know how it got there. Because it was unsigned and undated, I was concerned that it might be misunderstood as my own postscript to my signed dated posting immediately above it. ] (]) 21:16, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::It should be noted that Haberstr isn't the first to make the mistake of leaving a posting undersigned. Marek did the same in his post at 04:58, 25 March 2016 (UTC). I wish everyone would be more careful... ] (]) 21:48, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::It should ''also'' be noted that refactoring other editors' comments without good reason is looked upon far more dimmly by the community than the not signing of posts :) whatever. ] <sup>''''']'''''</sup> 21:58, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::You're right, Fortuna. I slipped up. My apologies to Haberstr and to the community for interfering with his GF post.] (]) 22:07, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Sorry to you, Kalidasa, and to everyone for forgetting to sign the above, and thereby confusing folks.] (]) 13:19, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *This is a farce, as I predicted it would be. I don't know why Kalidasa 777 has come out of the woodwork to gang up on Iryna and Marek, but I can tell that the reason is far from rooted in good faith. ] — ] 16:17, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::You seem to be saying that you're not sure of my motive, but you know it isn't a good one. Is that what your saying. {{u|RGloucester}}? -- ] (]) 18:03, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :*I agree: Harbestr does not conduct these discussions in good faith. How do I know it? Because he started a discussion that materials about PEW center survey were not included , while being perfectly aware that they . ] (]) 04:16, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Haberstr's proposal was the Pew poll finding re Crimeans' confidence in the referendum result should be mentioned in a different section — the section specifically about the referendum and what various people thought of it. ''That'' is your proof that Haberstr lacks good faith? ] (]) 04:35, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Now you're getting the point, {{u|Kalidasa 777}}: Haberstr's 'proposal' is to stick it into the section describing/outlining the circumstances of the referendum where it is immaterial other than an attempt at ]. The section is dedicated to discussing the context, circumstances, and exclusion of international groups who would be in a position to observe and monitor the legitimacy of how the referendum was held, and where the content explicitly deals with RS describing the international community's disdain for the preclusion of genuinely neutral observers (selecting, instead, a handful of representatives affiliated with groups that he and his administration hoped would be more receptive to saying that it was all fair and above-board). Bottom line: wanting to stick it in there per the rationale offered by Haberstr is a POV-push to demonstrate that 'this was the popular choice by the people of Crimea' as it has no bearing on the content being examined in the relevant section. --] (]) 06:22, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Regarding this particular content question, I happen to agree with Haberstr. Does that mean that I also lack good faith? ] (]) 07:00, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::*Hmm... Staring a discussion with demands to include info that has been already included. Doing this in a 101th time (same question just was debated in a previous section of the same page and many times before). Reporting users who are frustrated by this WP:DE drama to ANI. This is all certainly in a good faith. ] (]) 12:40, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::"This is all certainly in a good faith". Are you being sarcastic, {{u|My very best wishes}}? -- ] (]) 17:55, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::The subsection on the referendum, in which the conduct and fairness of the referendum is attacked, should also have the poll where the Crimean people, through an RS poll reported by an RS source, state their opinion on those matters. There is a full and civil discussion of this matter at the talk page, where I have not been accused of bad faith. '''Can we get back on topic now'''? I think that topic is Iryna Harpy's repeated assumptions of bad faith against other editors, where her essential evidence seems to be "I disagree with your edit."] (]) 13:19, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::The way ANIs work, the discussion doesn't have to be only about the person mentioned at the start... Others can be criticised here, including the person who brought the ANI. What seems to be emerging, is that (1) RGloucester and Wishes not only defend Iryna's right (?) to make accusations of lack of good faith on an article talk page, they are also adding their own voices to Iryna's (though here rather than on the article talk page itself) (2) Now, not only you (Haberstr) and Tobby72 are being accused of having bad motives, I (Kalidasa) am being accused as well... ] (]) 19:01, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::{{re|Kalidasa 777}} Why are you so surprised at the BOOMERANG principle? Yes, the ANI is used by editors to report warring, disruptive behaviour, and other problems on articles where they are ''uninvolved''. You opened this ANI because you were (and still are) involved, therefore your motivates for bringing this to the very public attention of admins and members of the editing community and are, rightly, subject to scrutiny. As soon as negative responses to your submission started coming in from other editors, you widened your net to drag in more and more editors and accused them of collusion, all the while claiming that you, Haberstr, and Tobby72 are somehow innocent bystanders who have been caught up in a cabal of evildoers. At the end of the day, the behaviour you are displaying is what I would qualify as being bad faith. --] (]) 21:46, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::"Cabal of evildoers" is Iryna's choice of words, not mine.] (]) 21:43, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::No, Iryna, I'm not surprised at the ] principle. I knew when I started this thread that my own behaviour could be critically examined. I'm confident that the administrators will look at complaints made about each of us in an impartial spirit, to see which (if any) complaints are substantiated and actionable. ] (]) 22:01, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| '''Summary of the REAL problem''' | |||
| A couple users with a history of disruptive editing - Haberst, Tobby72, and Kalidasa 777 - are upset that they're not allowed to push their POV in peace. So Kalidasa 777 starts an ANI threat making nonsense accusations against a well respected and long standing contributor, Iryna, and engages in bad faith'ed canvassing to make sure his buddies show up. They do. And they join in the screaming and crying and hysterics. Haberst, who almost got indefinitely banned for going around accusing other editors of bigotry, and who as a result lay low for awhile, but now decided to come back and restart edit wars from long time ago. And Tobby72 who has been trying to stuff the same text over and over and over and over and over again against consensus for more than a year now and who uses purposefully misleading edit summary to try and mask what he's doing. That's about it.] (]) 18:47, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::*{{u|Volunteer Marek}}, you've accused me, by name, of "a history of disruptive editing". You have diffs to demonstrate where and how I went wrong? Please present them here, with comments, so I can learn from my mistakes. ] (]) 17:55, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :We want to include the ] poll results, as reported in reliable sources. That's all. I don't think there's a consensus to exclude the GfK survey, see , , , , , , , , , , , . Also please refrain from personal attacks. You have been asked to do so numerous times already. -- ] (]) 10:09, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :Marek, do you believe that me, Kalidasa, tobby, and in the past molobaccount and others in the long-standing content disputes on the Annexation of Crimea page are all engaging in disruptive editing? I've heard your assertion many times, but what is your reasoning? Diffs are not reasoning. I look at the same diffs and, assuming good faith, what I see are content disputes over non-consensus, non-stable sections and subsections.] (]) 12:53, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Conducting a year long slow motion edit war, as evidenced by the diffs above, against multiple editors, is most certainly disruptive. That's Tobby. As for your case, I'll let the diffs speak for themselves.] (]) 21:36, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::I can't answer for Marek, but you guys are bringing either very old diffs that are now completely irrelevant (this info ''was'' included) or a more recent change that has been reverted, discussed on article talk page and did not cause any further objections from the person who try to include this duplicate info. ] (]) 13:06, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::The GfK survey was removed — , . -- ] (]) 14:24, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{u|My very best wishes}}, you keep repeating "this info was included". Are you saying that once a piece of information is included in an article, there can then be no further good faith discussion about ''how'' the information is presented, e.g. about which part of the article it appears in, how much prominence it is given? ] (]) 18:31, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Yes, that was always included. I also rearranged these materials per your suggestions , but this edit was reverted by RGloucester. You should probably talk with him. I agree with you or rather do not care. ] (]) 05:03, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Wishes, I appreciate that you've taken some of my ideas on board and looked for areas of agreement. That RGloucester strongly disagrees, is part of the normal life of Misplaced Pages — ''of course'' people have different views about what to include and where to put it. That's why we need to have civil discussions on the talk pages, without personal attacks. As you wrote earlier in this thread: "people should not discuss each other on article talk pages, even when discussion is heated. They must definitely realize that." ] (]) 11:43, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| == Springee campaigning == | |||
| User reported: {{userlinks|Springee}} | |||
| Diff: {{diff2|711821491|21:57, 24 March 2016}} | |||
| Inappropriate notification. Non-neutral wording of notice. Campaigning; attempt to sway the person reading the notice. | |||
| Previous reports of {{u|Springee}} for canvassing | |||
| # 2 December 2015: ] by {{u|Scoobydunk}} | |||
| # 11 March 2016: ] | |||
| Respectfully request: | |||
| # administrator removal of inappropriate non-neutral personal comment portion of RfC notice at ]; and | |||
| # warning to Springee reminding of our project's behavioral guideline ], in particular our community norm regarding the need for neutrality in notifications. | |||
| Thank you. ] (]) 16:41, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::The above statement are likely from a banned editor who has attempted to harass both {{U|Ricky81682}} and myself over the past six months or so. ] (]) 20:53, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *Allow me to be the first one to say that this is going too far. You obviously have a problem with {{u|Springee}} that you are unwilling to address. Besides seeing a failure to discuss the wording with Springee, I personally do not see any violation of ]. The only way that the wording is not neutral is if you look for a personal attack in the first sentence, which is absurd. While the wording could have been "An editor has raised question to...." The comment as it stands ({{tq|I'm not sure why the editor responsible for the below RfC failed to notify this board.}}), is by no way something deserving of ANI. <span style="text-shadow:7px 5px 7px maroon">-- ] <sup><span style="font-size:80%">]</span></sup></span> 17:40, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::I am requesting that someone other than myself, if they agree, please remove that first sentence from the notice, and remind an editor of our norm of neutral notice wording. Thank you. ] (]) 17:59, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| * I don't see any canvassing either. The wording was simply "I don't know why the editor didn't notice the wikiproject". It wasn't any accusation at all. Frankly, there's no ''requirement'' that someone notify a project about an RFC occurring at a page within it especially since it does show up at ]. -- ] (]) 18:28, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thank you for your comment. Yes, the RfC was already on the project page, which explains why talk was not notified. Yes, no one is required to notify. May I respectfully request that you take another quick look at the notice with an eye toward specifically campaigning, using non-neutral wording of a notice to sway respondents, by slyly attempting to make an issue of motives? Again, I seek only a little clean-up and a warning from a third party, perhaps a reminder of the availability of ]? Thank you again. ] (]) 19:05, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ===Proposed Interaction Ban between Springee and HughD=== | |||
| I propose a 1 year two-way interaction ban between {{U|HughD}} and {{U|Springee}}. | |||
| Reasoning: I recalled seeing an ANI post like this just days ago (found ]) and upon searching "springee hugh" in the noticeboards, I was appalled by how much I found and how recently it all was. Even today an AN3 case was closed (]). These two report each other to various noticeboards far too frequently (], ], ], ], ], ] ) or end up proposing sanctions for each other (, ]). Even {{U|Ricky81682}} proposed such an interaction ban back on 25 September 2015 (). Both editors have most recently been on ] and ] and ] and associated talk pages all month, raking up dozens of edits. They appear to have followed each other to these pages, as well as other pages back in January (Interaction timelines: , , , , , , , , , ). In sum, these two appear to follow each other, report each other, and cannot edit constructive together. They cause disruption together and need to be separated. ] ] <small>Please {{]}}</small> 20:16, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' - Something needs doing, and this is probably the only thing that will do it. <span style="text-shadow:7px 5px 7px maroon">-- ] <sup><span style="font-size:80%">]</span></sup></span> 20:19, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Traveling''': I've been traveling for the past few days and have had limited internet access. I would ask for an opportunity to reply before any sanctions or blocks are applied to my account. Thank you. ] (]) 22:25, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::While we're waiting, can someone please pitch in with a little clean-up of the totally unnecessary, non-neutral, personal comment prefacing the RfC notice at ]? After all, an RfC is one of our important mechanisms for de-escalating content disputes, please can it get off the ground free of a cloud of early non-neutral notification. Thanks. ] (]) 23:45, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' - Thank you, {{u|EvergreenFir}} for suggesting this - I've been watching Springee and HughD carry on for months now, the bad blood between them has been seriously disruptive across multiple articles. ''Both'' users have indeed followed the other to unrelated articles they'd never edited before, and engaged in some seriously disruptive behavior in a bid to win whatever argument they're currently having. It's been clear to me for some time that both of them are basically trying to goad the other one into further bad behavior in the hopes that they'll be blocked - despite repeated pleas from admins and other users (including myself) to just move on and leave each other alone. Their conflict has resulted in edit wars and train-wreck talk page disputes across too many articles. It's way past time admins put a stop to this. ] (]) 03:38, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' - I would like to avoid having editing restrictions placed on my account. I asked several editors for help related to this issue (Fyddlestix , Callanecc , EdJohnson and Ricky81682 ) specifically because I didn’t want this to turn into an edit war. I’ve been involved in automotive and closely related topics since establishing my account and certainly didn't follow HughD to these topics. Previously I have said that I do not wish to engage HughD in new topics and I have stuck to that. Please note that I have been involved with the Pinto topic since last year (3 edits not realizing I was logged out at the time, the Grimshaw article is about a Ford Pinto fire) and the Chrysler topic since last December. I think it is unfortunate that HughD would choose to edit those topics given my obvious involvement and his statements regarding our previous disagreements. That said, before any restrictions are applied to my account related to these edits I would ask that other editors on those two topics be given a voice here ({{U|NickCT}} and {{U|Greglocock}} on the Pinto talk page, {{U|CZmarlin}} and {{U|Historianbuff}} on the Chrysler page). I would also ask that editors consider this recent topic on the Pinto Talk page regarding HughD’s edits. I will happily, voluntarily and '''if need be unilaterally''' agree to a 3 month interaction ban with HughD and that during that time we avoid any topic which we were not editing prior to March 1 of this year. I do not feel that it is fair or just to sanction my account for these editing issues given the stark difference in article page feedback between HughD and myself. Please note I am still traveling and will have limited internet access over the next day or two. ] (]) 20:49, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' at least so far as as pages which Springee has long edited. Regarding seeking out interaction, i dunno one way or the other, but it's a frequent temptation to any good editor to seek out and repair damage to other articles. That can often be found simply by tracking a particular editor's ...I dunno. "Contributions" looks like a euphemism, in some cases. ] (]) 21:15, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' - I think topic bans would be an easier way to get at this. HughD needs to be topic banned from ] where he is editing disruptively. Start with that page, then look at others both editors are on. Whoever was there second should be banned from the page. ] (]) 21:47, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| * Pinging {{u|Callanecc}}, who on {{diff2|686290411|18 October 2015}} asked {{u|Springee}}:<blockquote>There's no ban violation there. You need to avoid this in the future, I can't see how you would have found this unless you were monitoring Hugh's edits. Therefore stop doing that and avoid commenting on Hugh's edits.<blockquote> | |||
| * Though an administrator, Callanecc was but an arbitration ''clerk'' at the time, and the opportunity for a voluntary interaction ban was unfortunately ignored. ] (]) 23:30, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| * Pinging {{u|Scoobydunk}}, who on 14 September 2015 reported {{u|Springee}} here ] of me and others. ] (]) 23:49, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' - {{u|EvergreenFir}}, thank you for your proposal. I believe your proposal will greatly improve my enjoyment of contributing to our project. I am, I think rightly, proud of my good articles, and my article space percentage (70%), but both have suffered mightily since Springee made me his project at the ] good article effort in Spring 2015. May I please point out, I am ''not'' socking as the IP you link to as suggesting a sanction for Springee, and though not the main issue here, to be fair, there is hardly any sort of equivalency between my reports of Springee and Springee's prodigious noticeboard volume. May I respectfully ask that my colleagues decline consideration of voluntary alternatives, and decline attempts by some to use this noticeboard filing, originally over one incident of non-neutral notice, to fashion some kind of interaction ban hybrid with a topic ban, via drawing a complex armistice line through Misplaced Pages subjects. As far as waiting for holiday travel, if my colleagues here want to hold off until they see yet another wall of text arguing why Hugh should be banned, fine, but I'd just as soon get on with getting on with what best I can tell is a simple reasonable measured proposal. Thank you again. ] (]) 00:36, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thank you again to EvergreenFir for your simple reasonable proportional proposal. Thank you to my colleagues for your support of the proposal. I have read and understand interactions bans and support the proposal. | |||
| ::EvergreenFir wrote: "These two report each other to various noticeboards far too frequently or end up proposing sanctions for each other." May I clarify and quantify. | |||
| ::'''Springee has reported HughD 7 times''': | |||
| ::# AE ] | |||
| ::# ANI ], proposed '''topic ban''' | |||
| ::# ANI ], proposed '''topic ban''' | |||
| ::# 3RN ] | |||
| ::# 3RN ] | |||
| ::# 3RN ] | |||
| ::# 3RN ], proposed '''topic ban''' | |||
| ::Springee proposed topic bans for me three times, twice an at ANI and once at 3RN . I have reported Springee twice, at ANI, 11 March 2016 and the current report, and the harshest sanction I have proposed for Springee is above in this report: a warning reminding of the importance of neutrality in notifying and a reminder of the availability of the "please see" template. Springee's project for going on a year now has been getting HughD banned. Thank you again. ] (]) 05:10, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{U|HughD}}, you should also mention that in the last year you have been '''blocked five times, been topic blocked and had that blocked expanded.''' Perhaps the number of reports is just reflective of your editing behaviors. '''If you think I'm so mean why did you follow me to the Pinto and Chrysler topics?''' ] (]) 11:52, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *Comment. I don't think an IBAN would work. Although I honestly don't see a problem with the content of {{u|Springee}}'s edits, and I do see a serious problem with many of {{u|HughD}}'s edits, I think the only solution which would reduce disruption is to ban one or both of the editors from Misplaced Pages, or just ban ''both'' editors from any article and talk page where they have caused disruption, either being able to immediately appeal in the unlikely event that one is not at fault. Springee seems unable to avoid taunting Hugh, and Hugh seems unable to avoid making absurd statements about sources and policy. | |||
| *:As for me, I have actively avoided editing in topics where Hugh is likely to be found. ''My'' enjoyment of Misplaced Pages, and I believe Misplaced Pages's accuracy, would be greatly improved if Hugh were banned. — ] ] 01:04, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::* Seconded re HD. I oppose any action on S but would ask him to back off a little ] (]) 07:07, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment:''' I'm not sure if an IBAN would address the underlying issues. HughD and Springee are by far the two most active editors on the articles they are currently sparring at, ] and ]. If they can't interact on the talk pages of these articles, I'm afraid they'll just edit war in article space instead. However, it's not like their interactions on the talk page have ever yielded anything constructive. It seems quite clear that HughD followed Springee to automotive articles. Springee first edited Ford Pinto on January 11, 2016, while HughD made his first edit on March 2, 2016 (for Chrysler, Springee's first edit was in July 2015 and Hugh's in March 2016). HughD seems to be on a sort of revenge campaign after being from U.S. political articles. His newfound interest in automobiles, which is an area Springee edited in prior to HughD's involvement, seems unlikely to be a coincidence. It looks more like calculated aggravation. I would know something about Hugh's penchant for appropriating his least favorite editors' interests, as several months ago he my statement of editorial interests from . I don't think Hugh is interested in ''US Weekly'' or cars. I think he's interested in trying to make the editing lives of his perceived foes less pleasant. So yes, I'd support an IBAN as a first step, I suppose, but I think Hugh's continued involvement on automotive pages is highly likely to render him topic banned from that area as well. ] (]) 15:25, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :: The "calculated aggravation" works both ways here - while it is less recent, Springee has done just as much (and as blatant) following of HughD - I detailed some of that and months ago. Check the diffs, some of the harassment was pretty severe/blatant. More recently, Springee has posted eight times to HughD's talk page since HughD (ie "banned" him from his talk page) in December, and devoted considerable effort and time into trying to get HughD sanctioned (multiple reports, contacting individual admins directly, etc). Both of these editors have been bearing a grudge against the other one for a ''long'' time now. ] (]) 23:05, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::'''Springee persistent violations of''' ] despite repeated reminders: | |||
| ::::*{{diff2|686505405|19 October 2015}} '''First notice''' HughD ] request to Springee "Do not post on my talk page" at ] | |||
| ::::*{{diff2|686574920|19 October 2015}}, {{diff2|686664566|20 October 2015}}, {{diff2|686759950|20 October 2015}}, {{diff2|686823419|21 October 2015}}, {{diff2|686825372|21 October 2015}}, {{diff2|687023423|22 October 2015}}, {{diff2|687513801|25 October 2015}}, {{diff2|687615854|26 October 2015}} Springee posts to ] | |||
| ::::*{{diff2|687617787|26 October 2015}} '''Second notice''' Springee reminded of ] request at ] | |||
| ::::*{{diff2|696299324|22 December 2015}} Springee posts to ] | |||
| ::::*{{diff2|696365413|22 December 2015}} '''Third notice''' Springee reminded of ] request at ] | |||
| ::::*{{diff2|696478487|23 December 2015}}, {{diff2|696934493|26 December 2015}}, {{diff2|696934693|26 December 2015}}, {{diff2|702032165|27 January 2016}}, {{diff2|707976359|2 March 2016}} Springee posts to ] | |||
| ::::*{{diff2|707977169|2 March 2016}} '''Fourth notice''' Springee reminded of ] request at ] | |||
| ::::*{{diff2|708819397|7 March 2016}} Springee posts to ] | |||
| ::::*{{diff2|708819722|7 March 2016}} '''Fifth notice''' Springee reminded of ] request at ] | |||
| ::::*{{diff2|709577957|11 March 2016}}, {{diff2|710705093|18 March 2016}} Springee posts to ] | |||
| ::::*{{diff2|710705789|18 March 2016}} '''Sixth notice''' Springee reminded of ] request at ] | |||
| :::Thank you for your attention to this harassing editor behavior. ] (]) 17:54, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comments''': I would like to address some of the comments here. I appreciate {{U|Safehaven86}}’s comments about HughD’s editing behaviors and following me to the Pinto and Chrysler topics. Like Safehaven86, HughD added an interest area of mine to his home page after the fact. HughD’s first Chrysler edit was reverting me (removal, added back). | |||
| :{{U|Fyddlestix}} has my respect and I contacted him for help related to these issues. I do not agree with him in this case. Fyddlestix mentioned his comments in a previous AE . My reply is here. The wikihounding accusations last fall, though they didn't stick, made me wary of ANY actions may be seen as following HughD to new topics. HughD clearly followed me to the automotive topics. Regarding posts to HughD's talk page, consider what they were. Notifications of admin discussions are a requirement. I asked him to please watch the 3RR/warring hoping to avoid bigger issues. One post because it was clear he followed me to the Pinto article and one in frustration (but not attack). These are not attempts to provoke. | |||
| :HughD’s Pinto edits have clearly upset other editors as well as myself. 250 edits at a rate of ~50 per day when many editors were asking him to slow down is disruptive . Chrysler page editors are also concerned about HughD’s edits as well . My efforts were appriciated. | |||
| :I think Fyddlestix’s POV is based on the past, not the recent issues. I want to assure him this is not a case of me trying to provoke HughD but the other way around and rather blatant at that. Like {{U|Arthur Rubin}} I had grown tired of dealing with HughD and wanted to move back into primarily automotive topics. I was unhappy to find that HughD followed me to those topics. I do not believe it would be just to sanction my account because HughD decided to follow me. That said, I am more than willing to voluntarily and if need be unilaterally agree to an interaction ban. I would suggest that HughD respond in kind with a voluntary interaction ban and also agree to leave the Pinto and Chrysler related topics. If HughD feels I violate that voluntary ban then he has ample ammo for an ANI. Given his actions on the Pinto and Chrysler pages I would support topic blocks but I think a voluntary agreement to abandon the topics (hence my future work in the area would not be seen as an interaction) should be acceptable to us both. I’ve shown that I can stick to my word and will do so again. Again, I do not wish to be sanctioned because HughD followed me here. ] (]) 03:06, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::'''Springee claims to have forsworn following''' after his previous report to ]:<blockquote>I’ve been involved in automotive and closely related topics since establishing my account and certainly didn't follow HughD to these topics. Previously I have said that I do not wish to engage HughD in new topics and I have stuck to that. </blockquote>and<blockquote>The wikihounding accusations last fall, though they didn't stick, made me wary of ANY actions may be seen as following HughD to new topics...I think Fyddlestix’s POV is based on the past, not the recent issues. I want to assure him this is not a case of me trying to provoke HughD...I’ve shown that I can stick to my word and will do so again.<blockquote> | |||
| ::Unfortunately, this is not the case. | |||
| ::'''Recent incidents of Springee following HughD''', with diffs (the following list is focused for brevity to incidents of Springee following HughD, when Springee's first edit to the article was to revert or undo HughD in article space, and does not include following to talk or noticeboards or following when Springee's first edit to the article was tagging): | |||
| ::*] Springee reported at ] for ], report opening with 8 articles to which Springee followed HughD | |||
| ::*{{diff2|685795270|15 October 2015}} Springee's 1st edit at ] was to '''revert''' HughD after 4 hours (HughD 1st edit was 18 August 2015) | |||
| ::*{{diff2|685795061|15 October 2015}} Springee's 1st edit at ] was to '''revert''' HughD after 4 hours (HughD 1st edit was 7 March 2015) | |||
| ::*{{diff2|685794189|15 October 2015}} Springee's 1st edit at ] was to '''undo''' HughD after 4 hours (HughD 1st edit was 30 September 2015) | |||
| ::*{{diff2|686290411|18 October 2015}} Admin asked Springee to stop following HughD and to stop commenting on HughD's edits | |||
| ::*{{diff2|690245735|12 November 2015}} Springee's 1st edit at ] was to '''revert''' HughD after 13 hours (HughD 1st edit was 18 August 2015) | |||
| ::*{{diff2|696113469|21 December 2015}} Springee's 1st edit at ] was to '''revert''' HughD after 5 hours (HughD 1st edit was 18 August 2015) | |||
| ::*{{diff2|701141590|22 January 2016}} Springee's 1st edit at ] was an '''undo''' of HughD after 3 minutes (HughD 1st edit was 22 January 2016) | |||
| ::*{{diff2|708165089|4 March 2016}} Springee's 1st edit at ] was to '''revert''' HughD after 3 hours (HughD 1st edit was 2 March 2016) | |||
| ::Respectfully suggest to my colleagues that voluntary concessions are unlikely to be effective in curbing this disruptive following behavior. Thank you. ] (]) 16:08, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Noted. However, because of Hugh's frequent violations of content policies, Springee should be allowed to comment on such violations, even if he/she is not allowed to revert them. So this would be a somewhat modified IBAN. — ] ] 18:38, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Why would a voluntary, two way IBAN not work HughD? Are you afraid you won't hold to it? What evidence to you have that I can't be trusted? ] (]) 04:04, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Above, Springee misrepresented his following behavior, claiming he stopped in the Fall of 2015. Below, Springee {{diff2|712441742|wrote on 28 March 2016}}: "I would like to start by pointing out that HughD's current topic block was the result of dishonestly presenting his own actions..." Do we have a policy or guideline or community norm regarding honesty in statements in support of a proposed sanction in behavioral noticeboard filings? Thank you. ] (]) 16:46, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::'''Springee followed HughD to a GA review'''. The above list highlights article space following behavior ''after'' Springee's claimed conversion. Other colleagues, including {{u|Scoobydunk}} at ] and {{u|Fyddlestix}} at ], have compiled comprehensive lists if the extensive following behavior prior to the claimed conversion, thank you very much to them for their support in addressing this long-overdue behavioral issue. | |||
| ::But one earlier episode of Springee following me is particularly telling of Springee's priorities: 11 August 2015 Springee followed me to the ] of ], a recently passed Chicago alderman, ''olav ha-sholom'', of which article I was the principle author and GA nominator, during collaboration to address issues from the GA review, to argue against GA. Thank you to all for your careful consideration of addressing this disruptive behavior. ] (]) 15:46, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::'''Additional evidence of Springee following HughD''' In support of the proposed interaction ban, may I respectfully submit for consideration additional evidence (again, in the interest of brevity, the following list is limited to article space, and to where Springee's first edit was a revert or undo of HughD): | |||
| ::*{{diff2|676739269|18 August 2015}} Springee's 1st edit to ] was to '''revert''' HughD after 2 hours | |||
| ::*{{diff2|676768473|19 August 2015}} Springee's 1st edit to ] was to '''undo''' HughD after 1 day | |||
| ::*{{diff2|676836136|19 August 2015}} Springee's 1st edit to ] was to '''revert''' HughD after 1 day | |||
| ::*{{diff2|677951935|26 August 2015}} Springee's 1st edit to ] was to '''revert''' HughD after 3 days | |||
| ::*{{diff2|678206286|27 August 2015}} Springee's 1st edit to ] was to '''revert''' HughD after 20 hours | |||
| ::The record is clear that following and harassing HughD is a significant distinguishing characteristic of Springee's editorial behavior of the past year. Thank you to the community for your thoughtful consideration of the proposed interaction ban. ] (]) 16:06, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment to HughD's accusations''':HughD's accusations beg a question. If I have been so mean to him, '''why follow me here?''' It's not like automotive articles have been a topic space of HughD's. If he just wanted to be left alone doesn't following me to a space I've been in for a long time and he's never been in seem like he was looking to start a fight, a fight I didn't engage in per the views of the Pinto and Chrysler editors. I’m sorry but HughD’s claims above are very misleading if not outright dishonest. I would like to start by pointing out that HughD's current topic block was the result of dishonestly presenting his own actions in a previous ANI as part of an AE request against another editor. Please keep that in mind when reading his accounting of events. To avoid a wall of text I have used the collapse feature. He is taking a laughable accusation of canvasing (later changed to campaigning) and trying to turn it into a dumping ground of old accusations. Why mention these issues months after the fact? Sadly I believe this is a plan on HughD's part. If he gets an IBAN then I believe he assumes that will result in an effective Pinto and Chrysler topic block for me. ''Regardless of outcome I would ask admins to consider the fact that the editors replying from the recent topics have been supportive of my participation on the topics in question.'' No editors have been supportive of HughD's involvement with the articles in question. While I believe a voluntary IBAN would solve the issue (not sure why HughD is against such a thing other than malice) it would be unjust to block me from automotive topics because HughD chose to follow me to those areas with the intent to be disruptive. | |||
| {{collapse top|General replies to HughD's accusations}} | |||
| HughD mentioned the ] page. I replied to an RfC that HughD had at the page. I had no idea who HughD was prior to that article. A large number of editors were involved. Like the outside editors responding to the Chrysler and Pinto pages I was badgered by HughD because I didn't agree with his POV. A review of the editorial history of the page, an article which HughD was topic banned from, doesn't show any misbehavior on my part. I'm not sure why HughD would even claim it other than it was the first time we interacted as editors. | |||
| HughD states I followed him to several articles months after his first edit. That is a half truth. '''The topic of editorial disagreement was the use of a Mother Jones article citing the “dirty dozen of climate change”. This was a questionable article that HughD added to about a dozen articles.''' It was the subject of NPOV and RSN discussions and a number of editors including Arthur Rubin were involved. A range of related articles were noted in the NPOVN and RSN discussions. HguhD's additions began around August 18th. Because other editors, Arthur Rubin, {{U|Capitalismojo}} among others were involved in these edits I didn’t initially act on every page where HughD tried to insert this questionable reference. Thus while HughD wants to claim these as unique interactions, they are in fact all related to one issue, the insertion of a questionable source into many articles. In cases where HughD said I joined the article months later it was simply a case of others had previously reverted HughD’s edit. Rather than accepting the previous group consensus, he returned a month or so later and undid what the others had done. These aren’t examples of me following HughD to many new topics but rather restoring previous consensus related to a single citation used in a number of articles on a topic I was alread involved with. Articles include ones HughD mentioned, Coalition for Clean Coal, Constructive Tomorrow, Beacon Center, ExxonMobil and API articles. Basically that whole list of “he followed me” is actually related to a single topic. | |||
| '''HughD's claim related to the ] article is again a half truth.''' The climate change article was spun off from ] in January. I was one of the editors involved in that spin off and using HughD's reasoning '''I could claim he followed me to the article''' because my first talk page edit was January 15th . Hugh’s first edit to the article was Jan 22nd and he first joined the talk page 2 days later. However, I am honest enough to see the EM climate change article as just an extension of the parent article. It would be dishonest if I claimed HughD followed me to EM-climate change article, as is claiming I followed him. We were both involved in the parent article's climate change section when it was spun off. | |||
| ] is the most significant lawsuit associated with the ] case and is a closely related article as the one is pivotal in the telling of the other. Both {{U|Greglocock}} and I turned to the Grimshaw talk page before HughD to try to engage HughD before we mane any edits to the article. In this case I made almost NO changes to HughD's edits rather I added additional material and restored that material when HughD moved/removed it. I guess using the ExxonMobil reasoning HughD followed me to the Grimshaw talk page. | |||
| Hugh has attempted to make a big deal of the posts to his talk page. Please consider the nature of the posts. Some were required notifications (notice he doesn't mention that). Some were simply requesting that he please engage in talk page discussions. These were attempts to try to get HughD to the table, not attempts to antagonize. Quite unlike HughD falsely quoting me on his home page and then refusing to remove the content. | |||
| {{collapse bottom}} | {{collapse bottom}} | ||
| :Regardless of HughD's misleading accusations of past wrong, if I am as mean to him as he claims and hurt his editing enjoyment that much, why follow me to the automotive article space at all? I don't think a single editor has accused me of taking a bad step when editing the Pinto or Chrysler related articles (other than Hugh himself). It would again seem very unfair to sanction me for the disruptions Hugh has caused on these articles. ] (]) 03:55, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| It should be noted that Lardlegwarmers, after only truly starting editing two months ago, has been actively pushing ] misinformation, particularly on Covid related pages. They have actively been making claims that the scientific community is trying to cover things up, such as ], and has been using poor quality sources to try and claim that major published scientific papers on the topic are false, such as ]. This entire thread just sounds like an attempt to silence another editor who has been actively dealing with fringe POV-pushers across numerous articles, such as those linked by Lardlegwarmers above. ]]<sup>]</sup> 02:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === Topic ban user ] from ] === | |||
| <small>{{moved from|another ANI thread.}} --<span style="font-family:'Tahoma',Geneva,sans-serif">] <small>(] 📖 ])</small></span></small> | |||
| ] has been disruptively editing our ] article. Could an admin review ] and see whether a topic ban would be appropriate? ] (]) 21:52, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' The still-active discussion above (titled "Springee Campaigning") also concerns HughD and the pinto dispute. Just sayin' ] (]) 22:03, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{reply to|Fyddlestix}} - Thanks. Yeah. I noticed. I think that discussion is discussing an interaction ban, right? I just think HughD should get topic banned from ]. I and others think that HughD has to get topic banned from Ford Pinto. That justifies a second discussion, no? ] (]) 22:07, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| '''Support banning ]:''' It's not worth trying to edit the Ford Pinto article with HughD participating. He's basically destroyed any pretense of unbiased editing, and he continues to seriously distort the article.] (]) 17:42, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning. And it seems that's the case here. ] (]) 02:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| '''Oppose''' a Tban, as the problem extends far beyond just one article or one topic. Conflict between HughD and Springee has made a mess on a much broader range of articles and talk pages, ranging from ] to ] to ]. Topic banning one or both editors from a single article is going to do nothing to fix the larger issue here. ] (]) 23:05, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :{{reply to|Fyddlestix}} - re "''Topic banning one or both editors from a single article is going to do nothing to fix the larger issue here.''" - Maybe not. But it would be a start.... ] (]) 07:08, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| '''Support with condition''' As noted above I don't agree with Fyddlestix in this case. HughD's 50 edits per day before the article was locked, refusal to accept opinions from 3rd party editors and the clear consensus among the other editors that HughD is a problem mean that at least this part of the discussion is not about me. That said, I proposed a two way voluntary interaction ban between HughD and myself that would also include voluntarily leaving the automotive pages in question. Thus it would result in HughD leaving the page but no sanctions would be levied against his account. ''Please note, tomorrow is a travel day for me and I will have limited web access'' ] (]) 03:14, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :*I haven't seen any evidence presented that would put Hob Gadling in the wrong; after reviewing the diffs I'm scratching my head and can only conclude that some of the people above have been commenting without reading them. Most of them are not even mildly uncivil. Going over them, the majority are clearly criticizing someone's argument (or the specific reasoning they presented), which is not a personal attack; and others aren't violations at all. Misplaced Pages editors are not forbidden from using profanity; the fact that Lardlegwarmers' unconvincing throw-every-unconnected-thing-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks approach here extended to the fact that their target used the word (gasp!) {{tq|bullshit}} to describe an argument that did, in fact, turn out to be bullshit shows how weak it is. What's more alarming is that ''that'' was what led Lardlewarmers to try and , a hamhanded effort whose sheer inappropriateness they remain sufficiently tone-deaf to that they made the mistake of bragging about it here as part of their "report". This is a straightforward ] situation. --] (]) 02:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| '''Oppose''' The appropriate venue for the resolution of a content dispute is article talk, not a noticeboard. A civil disagreement regarding content, supported by noteworthy reliable sources, policy, and guideline, is not disruptive. Involved editors are respectfully requested to bring their article content proposals and best noteworthy reliable sources to ]. Thank you. ] (]) 14:22, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :*:There's only so much we can handle when someone has had five years to fulfill their promise and "]" in situations like this one. Misplaced Pages would be better off if people were more willing to ] and stop treating ]. ] (]) 03:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :{{reply to|HughD}} - This purpose of this conversation is not to discuss content. ] (]) 14:48, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :*:The reason I cited numerous diffs was to substantiate, as I said in my post, that this is a ''chronic'' and ''ongoing'' habit of rude and uncivil behavior. I posted the diff of Hob Gadling's user page not to "brag" (and I don't understand how you inferred that), but rather to show that I followed ANI procedure to address conduct disputes first on the user page and that my attempt was dismissed without Hob Gadling addressing it except to blank the comment with the explantion that I wasn't welcome on his page.] (]) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I am not trying to silence anyone. See above, I recommend a stern warning about consistent uncivil comments and that’s it. If Hob Gadling has something substantive to say, they can say it without demeaning the editors as if this is a combat sport instead of a discussion about articles of text. I encourage y'all to check out the discussions linked to by Silverseren. I have been careful to use sources, present my suggestions in good faith, and stay neutral in personal interactions. I am genuinely trying to find consensus. I'll mention that Silverseren is also involved in the content dispute, providing sources that myself and several other editors believe do not verify an extraordinary claim in the article. (]) It's getting to the point where we should do a content moderation over that, since I am sure that the sources do not verify the claim but Silverseren apparently is sure that they do. ] (]) 03:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I think it was probably a poor choice for you to reference Silverseren's discussion as proof of one-sided UNCIVIL behavior. There is precious little in your first response to Hob in this specific LL section that makes your point that that you're trying to find consensus, but rather demonstrates a heavy handed ''I'm right because I can cite more WP policies in bolded type''. As the Alien above said, you '''{{tq|Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning.}}''' now ]. ] ] 18:57, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::No, TiggerJay, that is false. Except for one link to ], the links you mentioned are all main-space articles to describe the ] contained in Hob Gadling's arguments, including the use of ], as part of my intention to focus on and steer the conversation towards a discussion of the ''content'', not attacking the person (]). This is the second comment you have posted in this discussion that mischaracterizes my actions and falsely accuses me of bad faith.] (]) 19:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::For the record I do ''agree with you'' that Hob's position was absolutely a fallacy; I might assume they might have even been ] you. I also agree that you also have references to main space article, beyond the single reference to policy. I even agree that there is an probably conflict of interest with those virologists you named, but unless their editing Misplaced Pages that is irrelevant unless you're performing ] or ], rather we depend on ] and ] to help navigate such things. You claimed that you intented to {{tq|steer the conversation towards a discussion of the content, not attacking the person}}. However, that is not what I read in that . Out of the gate you're calling Hob uncivil, their arguments are false, and then lobbing further accusations. You get the discussion wrapped up arguing over who said what, and what they meant by it, and why your positions are valid and theirs are not. As for bad faith, I'll invite to other editors to comment below if they agree that I'm the one presuming bad faith towards you. Cheers! ] ] 00:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Your point about RS is well-taken. However, per WP:RS, concerns about the reliability of a particular source ought to be discussed on the article talk page (]) first when it is only germane to the particular topic and not the publication as a whole.] (]) 00:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I think I understand what you're referring to about RS. Yes, there are times when a source is otherwise considered reliable (or even un-reliable) but consensus can be found with regards to a specific narrow aspect of it that might warrant it's inclusion or exclusions, or some variation on how it is presented or the weight afforded to it in the article. And that comes through talk page consensus as you mentioned and does not necessarily need to be unanimous. ] ] 01:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Being entirely blunt, if we have two visions of Misplaced Pages: one in which people are occasionally rude or incivil to people who tout pseudoscience concerning major diseases and one in which pseudoscience concerning major diseases makes its way into article space then I'll gladly sign up for the rude / incivil Misplaced Pages over the pseudoscience one. This is to say that being rude is most certainly a {{tq|lesser offense}}. ] (]) 20:23, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' per Fyddlestix's reasoning. Neither article nor the topic are the cause of the disruption. Removing an editor from it will not mitigate that disruption and only serve as a punitive measure. ] ] <small>Please {{]}}</small> 16:56, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :{{reply to|EvergreenFir}} - Not sure how removing a disruptive editor from a particular article would not mitigate the disruption that editor was creating on that article. Seems like it would mitigate it quite effectively! ] (]) 17:40, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :Please check out the article and discussion. The lab leak theory is not pseudoscience, but rather a scientific hypothesis which important scientists have suggested is worthy of serious investigation (]). Although the evidence strongly favors a zoonotic origin, the investigation is inconclusive. In any case, I would favor a Misplaced Pages where civil discussion leads to a balanced representation of what is published in reliable sources. If your position is supported by the sources, there is no need to resort to name calling. ] (]) 20:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Like I said, I don't think the article is the issue. If HughD is being disruptive on Ford Pinto specifically and only on that article, I'd agree. But they're are other articles that be being simultaneously disrupted. A tban from one of those articles only makes no sense. From my reading of the edit histories the interaction of the two editors is the main problem, so I'd rather try an iban first and see if the disruption stops. It almost certainly won't stop just from a tban from Ford Pinto. ] ] <small>Please {{]}}</small> 17:49, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::It's pseudoscience and a pseudoscientific hypotheses burdened with quite a few racist and conspiracist adherents who want to propose China intentionally spread a plague just to weaken the United States. Preventing the promulgation of ''this specific'' pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic. ] (]) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{reply to|EvergreenFir}} - I agree it isn't the '''main''' issue, but it's certainly '''part''' of the issue. Tackling it would be tackling part of the issue.... What if we don't get an interaction ban? Is ] still to suffer? ] (]) 18:29, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::What you are describing is a different idea: ]. The lab leak hypothesis would be that the pandemic started due to researchers being accidentally infected with the virus. {{tq|the World Health Organization is recommending in its strongest terms yet that a deeper probe is required into whether a lab accident may be to blame. ]}} {{tq|The fact that the virus is not human-made does not necessarily exclude the possibility that the virus escaped the lab by accident (Field 2020; Guterl et al. 2020). This remains an open question; without independent and transparent investigations, it may never be either proven or disproven. The leakage of dangerous pathogens had already occurred more than once in other labs.}}(]) ] (]) 21:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I think the legitimate fear is that HughD or I would follow one another to yet another article and the cycle would repeat. An IBAN (voluntary or not) addresses part of the issue in that neither editor would engage in an edit war if they aren't allowed to interact. A standard IBAN would block Hugh and I from editing any article where we had previously interacted. That would stop HughD from editing the Pinto article. That he seems happy about such an outcome supports the view of several editors that he was only there to wikihound me. This is why I've proposed a modified IBAN with a March 1 interaction date. It would in effect rewind the clock while still protecting the current and future articles. ] (]) 19:11, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::That's not what the article is about. It is about a "conspiracy theory". But this is entirely irrelevant to this noticeboard. This noticeboard is about behavior, not content. It can be extraordinarily frustrating to those who have been building this encyclopedia for ages (20 years in the case of Hob Gadling) to deal with large numbers of brandy new editors trying to push new conspiracy theories, often politically motivated. If you wish respect, try supplying some yourself. Believe me, it will aide you in your work here. I stand by my proposal of trouting you both and an unlogged warning to you that is for your own good if you wish to continue contributing. ] (]) 01:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Please see our project's policy ]. You wrote: "A standard IBAN would block Hugh and I from editing any article where we had previously interacted." You need not fear being unable to contribute to your articles. You are being asked by your colleagues to avoid interacting with HughD; the proposed interaction ban does not ask you to avoid any articles; our project's interaction ban policy involves no concept of "who was there first." Our project's interaction ban policy states that "A no-fault two-way interaction ban is often a quick and painless way to prevent a dispute from causing further distress or wider disruption." Please help prevent further distress and wider disruption. Please join uninvolved editors in support of the proposed interaction ban. It's for the best for you, for me, and for our project. Don't be afraid; if it doesn't work, I think you know how to use ANI. Thank you. ] (]) 15:02, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Beyond what @] said, ''for all parties'', it doesn't matter who is "right" (when it comes to the article or talk pages), that is not sufficient to be uncivil ]. ] ] 01:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' HughD's bad behavior might have been due to my presence at the ] and ] articles. That doesn't excuse his behavior at those articles. When the editors unanomously (minus HughD) request the blocking of an editor that has to mean something. Does anyone believe his talk page interactions don't violate ]? Regardless of why he chose to edit war and be disruptive the fact is he was. Conversely the editors involved with those articles have not accused me of any editorial violations and have supported me here. | |||
| ::::::Indeed. ] (]) 01:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :''I find it disappointing that HughD seems intent on blood rather than an amicable agreement.'' Unless he thinks he is unable to adhere to a voluntary IBAN why request an official one? I would like to point out that ''if HughD’s involvement was calculated aggression as Safehaven86 suggests'' (and I agree) then his desire for an interaction ban would make sense. His participation on those pages, disruptive though it may be, would effectively block my participation on articles that I’ve been involved with for some time. I suspect this is why he seems to be campaigning for mutual sanctions. | |||
| :::::If Hob Gadling wants to "deal with" new editors who threaten Misplaced Pages, it should ''not'' be through aggression and insulting them openly, but through quality sources and discussion. Editors who sympathize with "fringe" ideas might be more cooperative if they didn't have to defend themselves against offensive comments in response to their suggestions. ] (]) 07:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Regarding HughD's editing on the pages in question, HughD added 250 edits to the Pinto article alone in the ~10 days it was open. Several editors asked him to slow down and discuss changes and expressed concern in a 3RR complaint . HughD’s behavior at Ford Pinto and Chrysler had many marks of ] editing. | |||
| :::If this "old grievance" about the FTN exemption to CIVIL really has been thoroughly hashed out, could someone link the discussion from ] or something? Being up front about it would save time here at ANI, plus it's always heartbreaking to watch as earnest new editors learn about this the hard way. - ] (]) 01:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{collapse top|List of TEND examples}} | |||
| ::::Palpable, were you canvassed to this conversation? You seem to be a very inactive editor. I've made more IP edits in a month than you have edits in two decades. I'm curious how such a new editor found this. ] (]) 01:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *HughD’s editing pace was of concern to the group. Nearly 50 edits per day made tracking changes and discussing controversial changes very difficult. Additionally, these are specific WP:TEND issues with HughD's edits to the Pinto and Chrysler pages: | |||
| :::::I am in the diffs. | |||
| *'''One who wrongly accuses others of vandalism''': While it is clear the group consensus is against HughD’s edits he accused others of edit warring. When group consensus did not support his addition to the Chrysler article he placed a POV hat on the topic. I was accused of warring when removing the hat after seeking and getting group consensus . This is one of the edits for which {{U|Historianbuff}} thanked me. | |||
| :::::I would still like a pointer to the discussion of why FTN regulars get an exemption from CIVIL, I honestly think that should be better understood. - ] (]) 02:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Doesn’t give others the benefit of doubt''': This largely applies to his actions towards me but others as well when he dismisses their concerns. For example HughD proposed changes which had already been rejected. {{U|CZmarlin}} replied to the discussion. Rather than address CZmarlin’s concerns, HughD talked around them. CZmarlin cited several policies to support his POV and gave numbers. HughD simply insisted that the information was WP:DUE even when other editors disagreed. Note that just today a 3rd party editor, Damotclese, supported the view that the material was not due . Per his pattern HughD badgered rather than accepted the 3rd party POV. | |||
| ::::::They don't have an exemption, and I challenge you to provide a diff proving they do. ] (]) 03:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''violating the 3RR rule''' I filed two 3RR filings against HughD related to the Pinto article. Both were found to have enough merit to result in article locks (no negative comments against me). Another editor filed a 3RR related to the Chrysler article. Yes, my actions could be seen as someone out to get HughD but was {{U|CZmarlin}} just out to get HughD, ? When EdJohnston warned HughD about edit warring was that just “out to get him”? Editor, {{U|Kevjgav}} has avoided involvement in the article edits but specifically asked HughD to stop edit warring on both the Chrysler and Pinto pages (posted to Hugh’s talk page). | |||
| :::::::I think he was referring to the comment by Simonm223 above: {{tq|Preventing the promulgation of this specific pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic.}}] ] (]) 07:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Accuses others of malice''': ''"Colleagues indulging in persistent pointed section blanking are kindly requested to propose alternative summarizations of noteworthy reliable sources."'' HughD failed to understand that the material he was attempting to add was removed based on consensus yet he accuses of malice . | |||
| ::::::::That diff certainly doesn't prove anyone is exempt from policy. I think it's interesting Palpable said he was following diffs instead of saying he was involved in the content dispute underlying this complaint. ] (]) 21:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Disputes the reliability of apparently good sources''': HughD specifically and repeatedly attacked the Lee and Ermann scholarly source. He also attacked the Schwartz scholarly source. Together these two sources, Schwartz in particular, are the most cited sources on the topic. ("three sources with a shared, revisionist, ''apologist'' point of view.", ). HughD never justified his claims of "revisionist, apologist" when asked by two editors ,. Hugh also tried to downplay author Lee as a "grad student" and thus not of merit . | |||
| :::::No, they're one of the pro-fringe editors in the linked discussion. ] (]) 21:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''One to whom others don't give the benefit of doubt''': Certainly stating that I “explicitly state my confusion on the fundamental principle that Misplaced Pages…” is less than giving me the benefit of the doubt. | |||
| {{collapse top|title=Extended discussion}} | |||
| *'''One who repeats the same argument without convincing people''': After failing to gain traction for his ideas in general discussions HughD posted a series of edit proposals (the article was locked at this time) HughD launches ''five'' edit proposals with no support other than his own. The last three each contained the same proposal to move material to a later section of the artile which was a point of contention each time the proposals were made. Why make a new proposal that doesn't fix what was wrong with the last. 1., 2., 3.. Each tries to downplay Mother Jones's role in the controversy despite significant support for the current article test in RSs. | |||
| :::::How ironic that you would call out canvass, when you haven't contributed to this discussion previously, nor have you contributed to any prior notice board. See ], also please see ] if you logged out just to make {{tq|problematic edits}} here.... ] ] 05:13, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''One who ignores or refuses to answer good faith questions from other editors''': One of HughD's proposed edits was the removal of an article that was of lesser (but still sufficient) quality. I asked a specific question . Other editors noted it was not answered ,. | |||
| ::::::I've contributed to this notice board hundreds of times, what are you talking about? IPs are only assigned for a few hours to weeks at a time usually. ] (]) 05:23, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''One who assigns undue importance to a single aspect of a subject''': This has proven to be absolutely true with regards to the Chrysler article. HughD has been pushing for inclusion of some recall material that the group feels is of low importance simply because he feels the article is imbalanced due to a lack of negative comments about Chrysler. EdJohnston mention this issue to HughD when closing CZmarlin’s 3RR complaint with a warning noting that HughD should try the RfC process rather than edit warring when people don’t agree with him , . Even a third party editor agreed that the material HughD was trying to add was UNDUE . | |||
| :::::::@]: Okay let me say it another way... | |||
| *'''One who never accepts independent input''' Anyone who has been involved with a RfC or 3rd editor discussion with HughD has seen this. When the 3rd party opinion doesn’t go HughD’s way he constantly badgers the editor in an effort to get them to change their mind. In cases of the Pinto and Chrysler no 3rd party opinions supported his actions. HughD requested a third opinion yet immediately argued with the editor when the recommendation didn’t go his way. This repeated with {{U|EllenCT}}’s reply to HughD’s RfC , HughD badgers EllenCT , and again when EllenCT appears to have tired of HughD’s games. Finally EllenCT has had enough. In a similar RfC at the Chrysler article HughD rejected arguments by uninvolved editor . Just today on the Chrysler talk page an editor rejected HughD’s proposed edit. HughD quickly replied back, restating the same arguments that were rejected by CZmarlin and myself. | |||
| :::::::* never in this history of this subject has an IP editor contributed. | |||
| :::::::* since January 1, ALL of the IP's who have contributed to ANI aside from your are blocked or had their contribution reverted. | |||
| :::::::* in the last 50,000 edits to this notice board, not a single anon has commented more than 34 times and that user was in Romania, whereas your IP shows US/Mobile, and they are currently blocked. Followed up an IPv6 with 30 edits, last participated in ANI back in May. Followed by a handful from the UK and other countries. The first one who is US based that was mobile has less than 12 edits, not hundreds. | |||
| :::::::* when you choose to edit anonymously (which is your privilege) you accept the reality that people will question your constructiveness because of a lack of established history. | |||
| :::::::But beyond all of that, aren't you simply deflecting from the question brought up? Perhaps @] has been lurking anonymously. As they have logged at least 31 edits to ANI alone . ] ] 05:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::There's a lot of strawmen there to knock down if I cared to derail this conversation, but I'm curious what question you think I'm deflecting? Your assumptions of bad faith are expected, but disappointing. ] (]) 06:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::What I claim you are deflecting KETTLE: Somehow you feel like you can call out someone who hasn’t contributed previously as canvassed, which is a ''serious allegation'', yet that is exactly what your user account history appears reflect. When challenged, you claimed to have edited hundreds of time, which was rebutted with facts, you resorted to allegations. Interestingly they very closely mirror only one other person who liberally throws around terms like strawman and bad faith. And really only one person at ANI has ever held this view so strongly they would plainly say bad faith was “expected” from me . If your not that person, then my query is how did you get involved in this conversation, and when exactly do you proffer that you last edited on here as an IP constructively? ''However, '''if''' you are indeed that person, let me warn you, such activity is considered sock puppetry.'' (Of course editing while accidentally logged out is a human mistake. But persisting and pretending otherwise, is not.) ] ] 07:12, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Don't know what this thread is about, but point 2 and 3 seem wrong - none of my IPs have been blocked, and I am an anon that has, in the to this board I made 38 of them (all edits by IPs starting with 2804:F14), let alone in the last 50 thousand edits. | |||
| ::::::::Maybe I'm misunderstanding your claims. – ] (]) (]) 06:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I think my detail for you was accidentally edited out. You would be an IPv6 from a different country, so unless this IP user is claiming they have rotating IPs hourly because they’re using an international VPN connecting via various countries, I find their claim that they just stumbled upon this conversation dubious at best. ] ] 06:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Also in case you were not aware, while mobile IP addresses can and do change, they still remain with that mobile carrier. So while your ip address will change, who all of those addresses are registered to will not. What I mean is that will your current IP goes back to a US based cell network, you’re not going to get a new IP address that is registered in Japan or even one in the US that is through a completely different network (a few technical exceptions exist, but they’re nevertheless evident). Same with home internet as well. And of course, most work addresses are persistent. All that to say, a claim of “my ip address changes” does not mean that a persona cannot reasonably determine if you’ve contributed to ANI from the a network. ] ] 07:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::When did I say I stumbled upon this thread? Provide the diff. You are putting words in my mouth and casting aspersions. I said my IP changes as a response to you saying I was a new editor. You are creating an elaborate narrative and getting strangely defensive. ] (]) 07:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I will gladly provide the answe after you answer the two questions I have previously asked to you. First was about KETTLE, and the second asked you to substantiate your claim of {{tq|I've contributed to this notice board hundreds of times}} by providing your last contrustive ip edit to this notice board. ] ] 07:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Please read ]. I'm not going to link all of my comments across IPs here for you. If you really believe I was canvassed, you need some diffs, or maybe you should strike your aspersions. ] (]) 07:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::All I can do is laugh at your replies. More KETTLE behavior. You claim don’t have to proof anything per SATISFY, yet in the same breath you demand such of others. More ad hominem, deflection. Zero actual replies. ] ] 08:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::What are you talking about? I asked one question, got one answer and it was done. It was you who started a long thread full of bad faith assumptions and no diffs. Provide diffs, or kindly stop bludgeoning. ] (]) 08:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{collapse bottom}} | {{collapse bottom}} | ||
| :I think it is very clear that HughD has been detrimental to both articles. That he feels I might have been unfair to him in the past is no excuse for disruptive editing in (to him) new articles. I would prefer an automotive topic block but at least a block related to the Pinto and Chrysler topics. ] (]) 03:14, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::To the best of my knowledge, you have ''never'' commented in concurrence of an edit of mine; your wall of text above documents your obsession. | |||
| ::You revert, without discussion, myself and others, claiming no consensus, even when the consensus against is as small as yourself: | |||
| ::*{{diff2|678241881|28 August 2015}} Springee undo of HughD at ] after 16 minutes with edit summary "...not developed with consensus. Please get consensus for this change" | |||
| ::*{{diff2|680082353|8 September 2015}} Springee revert of HughD at ] after 2 minutes with edit summary "Undue tag was removed without discussion or consent." | |||
| ::Numerous additional diffs of this behavior available upon request. Please see ]: "One who deletes the pertinent cited additions of others." Our colleague {{u|Scoobydunk}} brought this behavior of yours to your attention and to the attention of our community on 14 September 2015 here at ANI in his report ]. Your least favorite essay is ]. | |||
| ::''Then'', when I propose specific neutral, relevant contributions at article talk, laid out supported by multiple noteworthy reliable sources with excerpts, you report ''that'' at ANI as tendentious! Your project is to ban HughD ]. | |||
| ::Adding pertinent, well-referenced content is not tendentious. Proposing well-referenced neutral relevant content at article talk is not tendentious. Disagreeing with you is not tendentious. | |||
| ::Please support our colleagues in the interaction ban. It's what's best. You will be happier. ] (]) 16:00, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ==== Springee's project ==== | |||
| Oh, look. Yet another noticeboard wall of text on why HughD should be banned. I hope no one feels had for waiting for "traveling." | |||
| Springee's project is HughD. ] is little more than a single purpose account, with just enough automotive and ] for cover. Springee's article space percentage is 18%; this one essay is a larger contribution to Misplaced Pages than all his recent article space contributions combined. Springee followed me, to ], then to the POV split ], until ] became his , and ] his ''fifth'' top edited article! Regulars to these noticeboards recognize Springee as a noticeboard wall-of-text specialist who perceives prestige in successful proposed sanctions. | |||
| Springee claims to be a humble automotive writer: | |||
| <blockquote>I had grown tired of dealing with HughD and wanted to move back into primarily automotive topics.</blockquote> | |||
| I respectfully ask my colleagues to support our colleague Springee in their self-actualization effort. Please take the HughD project away from them. '''Please support an interaction ban.''' We may enable a great flowering of high quality neutral automotive coverage in our project. Thank you. ] (]) 14:04, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Question for HughD''', if you think I've been so mean to you why did you follow me to the Pinto and Chrysler articles? ''I'm happy to agree to an interaction ban, we avoid mutual topics from prior to March 1 and agree to not interact with one another on future topics. Seems like an easy solution and we don't even need an admin to force it if we simply, mutually agree to it here and now.'' '''Are we in agreement?''' ] (]) 14:20, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::If you had "voluntarily" stopped following me, ], or {{diff2|686290411|18 October 2015 when Callanecc asked you to}}, we would not be here. | |||
| ::The reporting editor, the reported editor, the proposer, and uninvolved commenters are in consensus here on the close: '''please put the interaction ban on the books''' for future reference. Thank you for your support. ] (]) 14:41, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Please answer the question Hugh, '''why would you follow me to the Chrysler and Pinto articles if you wanted to be left alone?''' ] (]) 16:03, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Look, if you're both ok with a voluntary IBAN, great - let's do it. If both parties agree to that then there's not much more to be said. But the long walls of text and bold text arguing isn't doing either of you any favors here. You're just demonstrating that you can't work together without turning every conversation into a mutual vendetta. I understand that you both think the other isn't fit to edit Misplaced Pages and are fishing for stronger sanctions, or are at least trying to get recognition that you were "in the right," but that's very unlikely to happen here (assuming the following and goading stops now). Just take the Iban and ''let it go,'' before you exhaust the community's patience. ] (]) 16:34, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Respectfully request close, with community-initiated '''1-year, two-way ]''', as proposed; under standard, simple well-understood, well-documented, easy to enforce terms as per widely accepted project policy ]. Thank you to all for your time and attention and patience. ] (]) 16:52, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::{{u|Fyddlestix}}, thank you again for your prodigious patience in attempting to moderating this closure discussion with a gentle hand so we can all move on to improving the encyclopedia. You wrote: "you both think the other isn't fit to edit Misplaced Pages and are fishing for stronger sanctions"; may I clarify, I am not now nor have I ever sought to ban Springee from anything; I came here in good faith seeking nothing more than a warning regarding notification neutrality. Thank you again. ] (]) 21:28, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::: I'm totally OK with a voluntary 2-way IBAN through April 1, 2017 applied to all article pages where we have interacted and with a March 1st exclusion deadline for future interactions. This will allow me to continue the work I was doing in automotive articles (Pinto, Chrysler) but forbid edits to articles where Hugh and I previously interacted (exp ExxonMobil) and forbids future edits (exp if HughD edits a future Coke family site I can not). I agree to the above. ] (]) 17:51, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| == Editor attacking others at ] == | |||
| {{User|Pocketthis}} seems to be pushing a anti-religion agenda and attacking others at ]. When an editor introduced an edit and started a discussion on the talk page when their edit was reverted, Pocketthis reponded with "The subject is "CLOSED" because this is Misplaced Pages's protocol, and I've been helping enforce it for 5 years. You don't come with good will. You come with religion. You are a religious person. A person of faith. Please feel free to contribute to in the articles written by those who also live their lives on faith and not fact. No compromise." and , saying things such as "This isn't the inside of someone's home where you can pop up on the TV screen begging for dollars, promising the sick, the old and the poor redemption, simply by sending in their life savings." and "''You can't pray here''. Now think of the religious articles as your '''church'''. Keep it where it belongs, and all is good." | |||
| As per ]: ''Using someone's affiliations as an ad hominem means of dismissing or discrediting their views'' is a personal attack. That seems to be this editor's ''modus operandi''. When I asked him to tone down his rhetoric on his talk page, he stated that because I was part of a (completely different) religion, because my "religious sympathies are showing". When I back to it's previous state per ] and ], he reverted with the edit summary and noted on their talk page that Saying that edit-warring has "a guilty party" and it's certainly not them, despite them being the one making all the reverts. | |||
| Pocketthis is not a new editor, and should be very aware by now that this kind of behavior is inappropriate. Attacking other editors, edit-warring while blaming every other editor for edit-warring is something that would be expected from a new editor, but not someone that has been here for over four years with a few thousand edits under their belt. Their comments and actions have made it clear that they aren't here to collaborate with others (especially those he feels are compromised by having an opinion he doesn't share), and I really think some kind of administrator intervention is required. Pocketthis has of this discussion. - ] (]) 17:06, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *I attacked no one. I am trying to protect the integrity of our encyclopedia from Bible pushers, who use science articles as a venue to preach. This ''man'' accusing me of attacking a new user, (which by the way isn't a new user, but an old one disguised a new one), is a Buddhist, and has sympathy for those who would insert matters of faith into a science article. I am trying to keep Misplaced Pages from becoming '''Wikibible'''. I should be thanked, and not spanked. - thanks] (]) 17:15, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *P.S. I have said my piece, and made my edits as to the issue pertaining to religion in the Twilight Article. I am done. There is no need to worry about any further comments by me. If what I have said and done there isn't enough for others to come to my aid, then it is what it is, and there's nothing I can do about it. - thanks-] (]) 17:19, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Pocketthis seems to be an atheistic fanatic. Case ends. --<span style="font-family:'Tahoma',Geneva,sans-serif">] <small>(] 📖 ])</small></span> 17:37, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::], no one is coming to your aid because you are wrong. By comparison, it doesn't matter that I personally think ] is bad. It's still a thing, and there are still Misplaced Pages articles on it. It doesn't matter that I think ] is nonsense. It's still a thing and there is still a WP article on it. By the same measure, it doesn't matter that you and I are atheists. ] is still a thing that exists, and is therefore an appropriate topic for inclusion in WP. ] (]) 18:23, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *I appreciate your opinion Timothy, however, our science articles are being hijacked by religious fanatics. This is the '''max''' the Twilight article should have to say about anything pertaining to religion: '''Many religions view the twilight time of the day as holy, and many activities in various religions are practiced during that time'''. Anything more, and you start a 10,000 character religious section, inviting every religious faith to come make their pitch. Haven't we seen enough religious destruction in the world to know what they are really selling? It is so obvious and absurd, I'm having a hard time containing myself speaking of it. From the beginning of recorded time, one faith or another has killed thousands in the name of their God. Why can't we keep a lid on it here? Or at least keep in their religious articles. Miserly loves company, let them be miserable there. - ] (]) 19:17, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *:Totally not a personal attack. --<span style="font-family:'Tahoma',Geneva,sans-serif">] <small>(] 📖 ])</small></span> 19:28, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::], sorry man, but your personal philosophical opinion on the role of religion in the grand scheme of the universe simply isn't relevant. Get off the ]. You don't have a 10,000 character religious section, if you end up with one, then argue ]. You have a small (severely undersourced) section. So drop the slippery slope. Compare the section under ] which perfectly appropriately addresses historically significant cultural and religious issues related to the sun, a section which you yourself have edited in the past and apparently had no problem with. WP is not the place to wage your personal social war. All these high handed proclamations about the fate of humanity just makes you look like you're ], and your going to wind up banned if you don't get a bit of a reality check. ] (]) 19:37, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *I have already said here that I was done with any further religious editing in that article. I was just commenting here with you as a mini debate. I see that you do not wish to debate, so I am done with debating as well. Good day-] (]) 19:49, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::The problem is your personal attacks and battleground mentality as much as your editing on the article. You cannot attack other editors on Misplaced Pages, especially for something as simple as having a viewpoint that you don't agree with. As far as I can see, you don't need to be touching ''any'' religious information on ''any'' article, because you have shown that you do not have the capacity to handle it, or other editors, appropriately. I don't know if a topic ban is needed, but it might be needed here to avoid a block. I don't know if you're having an off day or if there is a history of this behavior, I'm looking into that now, but the fact that you think this behavior is okay is the real issue. - ] (]) 20:00, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::He is certainly not competent enough to touch religious discussions for the rest of his life (this is coming from a non-theist, hit me). --<span style="font-family:'Tahoma',Geneva,sans-serif">] <small>(] 📖 ])</small></span> 20:27, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *I thought this was all over, and I really want it to be. On the other hand, I must say that the issue here I have a problem with, even more than the religious sections in science articles, is being accused by the user that opened this discussion, saying that I '''attacked''' someone in the talk article. All I did in the talk article was "talk". Yes, my opinion was very concise and deliberate, but that is just because I grew up in Brooklyn, NY, and I speak from the front of my mouth. There is no speaking from the side of my mouth, or under my breath. I tell it as I see it. I do so politely, and that is not '''attacking''' anyone. The person with real issues here, is the user/reviewer that opened this discussion. I truly believe that from the bottom of my heart. I never threatened the fellow in the talk page. The word '''Attack''' as used here is absurd. I will admit that as the years go by, I am more convinced that organized religion is not a good thing. To that opinion.....I am guilty. Also, perhaps I have been drinking a bit too much coffee. I'll cut down. Can we put this to bed now? - Thanks -] (]) 21:07, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::"You don't come with good will. You come with religion. You are a religious person." Puts an interesting spin on ] (Pun completely intended). | |||
| ::::"This isn't the inside of someone's home where you can pop up on the TV screen begging for dollars, promising the sick, the old and the poor redemption, simply by sending in their life savings." Really? I mean, hyperbole for sure. ] is a slam dunk. ] and a half. ] just for good measure. (But hey, if this is a way to get rid of the WP donation banner then I'm all for it.) | |||
| ::::And this is not to mention that your entire premise is just wrong. Compare the article on the ], as has been brought up already. Compare ], ], ], ]. The topic doesn't matter. If there are ] that make the connection, and it's not ] weight, then it belongs. | |||
| ::::The grand irony is, that if you had actually argued against the section based on the weakness of its sources, you would have had a good point. Instead you've nearly categorically disqualified yourself to have that discussion. You just make things worse with the "I just want it all to be over, but before it is, I want to have the last word and make sure everyone knows I'm completely justified.] (]) 21:36, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| * Here is my perspective on this. First, is the content that ] wanted to add. Pretty heavy on the Roman Catholic thing, and if you look at Matt1618's , they are 100% ] for things Roman Catholic, and their username is on which the Pope bases his claim of primacy. In my view, this user is so far here to use Misplaced Pages as a ] for things Roman Catholic, which is not OK. So ] was hitting a mark with their shotgun blasts. Matt1618 please reply here and let us know that you understand that the way you have been using Misplaced Pages is not OK. | |||
| :That said, what Pocketthis wrote on the Talk page was out to lunch and over the top. Almost every article on archetypical natural phenomena has a section that discusses importance to "Culture" in various ways (which is really how those article should be sectioned - a Culture section that deals with things like, art, literature, religion, etc). Examples: ] + ] + ]; ] (pretty much 100% culture); ]; ]; ]; heck, ] and even ]. So the notion that "religion" as a subset of Culture per has no place in an article about an archetypal time of day, is just out to lunch. I'll add here that the Twilight article is only part of one WikiProject, ] which is defunct and never created a manual of style to guide sectioning, but I would reckon they would have a "Culture" section if they had a MoS. | |||
| : Pocketthis, you also did nothing to get community input when you had your disagreement and as the more experienced user that would have been wiser of you. And you were beyond blunt and into strident. That is what everybody here has said. So let me ask you - can you hear that what you said about "no religion" was not correct, and that the way you said it was way too strident? If you cannot see those things, there are bigger problems than a TBAN from religion would solve. If you can see that, there is no need for a TBAN, in my view, especially if you can bring yourself to apologize for what you did, too. (for real, not fakey) ] (]) 01:14, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *My perspective on this is along the lines of {{ping|Jytdog}}'s response. These sections do tend to a "I have to get the details of my group in" level of overdetail, and it seems to me that what we have now could be reduced profitably. Pocketthis's response, on the other hand, is way out of line. It's one thing to overrun articles with this sort of material, but really, an article on twilight that doesn't talk about its religious significance is incomplete, and the hostility to religion expressed (a) over the top and (b) an obvious violation of neutrality. ] (]) 12:23, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ===Topic ban proposal from the topic of religion=== | |||
| The above makes it very clear that {{User|Pocketthis}} cannot constructively edit, or discuss, the topic of religion on Misplaced Pages. Outside of the topic of religion the editor's edits seem constructive, but if they keep at this they are going to get themselves blocked from editing. For that reason, I propose that the editor be topic banned from the subject of religion on Misplaced Pages for at least six months. The fact that they don't see their behavior regarding the topic of religion as a problem indicates that they don't need to be discussing it at all. Saying "You don't come with good will. You come with religion." is not "polite", no matter how much Pocketthis says otherwise, and the fact that they are willing to give "no compromise" on the subject means they should not be editing the subject at all. In their own words above, "I'm having a hard time containing myself speaking of it." , more than any other thing, sums up why they should be topic banned. - ] (]) 21:41, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' - As proposer. - ] (]) 21:41, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| You sir are a Buddhist that has lost his way. If you would have simply showed up in the Twilight talk page, and asked me to tone it down politely, I would have re-read my reply to the man, and tried to be more forgiving of his relentless posting. However, you chose to come here and make my life miserable because you felt your own faith threatened. Where is "your" compassion for fellow man? You lost it along the way. This isn't the living room with the TV in it asking for donations, or the front gate just waiting for that sought after Watchtower. It is an encyclopedia. This man put 2500 words about Christianity in the Twilight article, and when it was removed, he would not stop posting his opinions. I also didn't stop posting mine. Yes, I could have been more forgiving, and compromising, however, when the fellow lied to me and told me he was just a "new user" trying to do whatever, I closed the door on having an open mind. And......when this is all said and done and decided, the truth about his identity will eventually surface, and you might feel differently. How do I know he is not a new user? All of us that have been here for years know when they are talking to a sock puppet, or a banned user claiming to be a "new user". I don't have to give examples. If you don't know what I'm talking about, you don't belong here in this discussion. Any real user, that had prior posts, and was respected by the community would have gotten a completely different response from me there. I think you all of know that. I have worked here with the best in the world for 5 years, and you would block me over a talk page exchange with a sock puppet. Sad.. Sad commentary indeed. | |||
| *'''do not support'''- as recipient - ] (]) 22:05, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Every time you comment you dig yourself in deeper. You are incapable of discussing religion in a civil manner, for whatever reason. The funny thing is, I'm certain that I've never said I was a Buddhist on Misplaced Pages. Not just in discussions with you, but ever. I'm an active part of the WikiProject Buddhism, and have a quote from the Dhammapada on my user page because it's relevant to how people should discuss things on Misplaced Pages. That doesn't make me Buddhist, and the only person who has brought up Buddhism is you, so how is it that "my faith is being threatened"? The ] article does not, and as far as I know, has never mentioned Buddhism, nor have I in any discussion with you up until this comment. Yet you see the word "WikiProject Buddhism" on my user page and automatically attack me for it, saying that "because I'm Buddhist" that I shouldn't have any say in the subject of religion, and that my "religious sympathies are showing" simply because I disagree with you. The very mention of the word religion seems to compromise your ability to have any sort of dialogue, and instead you start going into these diatribes that hardly have anything to do with the subject at hand. Instead of explaining why you should not be topic banned from religion, you chose to attack me and what you assume is my personal religion. If anything, that's more evidence that you need to be topic banned before you are blocked completely. - ] (]) 22:17, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| * There you go with that word '''Attack''' again. Were you beat up as a child? Seriously my friend, I think the person that is out of control here is you. How have you ever managed to maintain your seniority here with your lack of compassion and diplomacy? Amazing.-] (]) 23:04, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' temp topic ban due to refusal to ], and tendency toward ]. As for ], enough, we get it. Shh. ] (]) 22:25, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::True. - ] (]) 10:27, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' temporary topic ban - enough is enough. ] (] - ]) 22:53, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *Why don't you fellows go and ban the sock puppet and do something constructive here. I'm being railroaded, and I would find it amusing if I didn't spend so many hours of my life here trying to improve and beautify this place. What a disgrace this is. Other than the level headed admin that ended this case, you should all be ashamed of yourselves. This is how you treat a 5 year veteran of the site that has fought vandalizum tooth and nail here everyday. I have beautified your articles with photography, and made some of the best friends of my life here, of which I do not plan on informing them of this atrocity, or ask for their help. Have fun here wolf-pack, and thank you "starter of this thread". You have only reinforced my feelings about those involved in organized religion. My advice is don't look in the mirror tonight, you might not like what you see.] (]) 23:43, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Dood. So much melodrama. Schtap. This is the problem. Learn to learn. ] (]) 01:50, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' topic ban. Insulting other editors proves no understanding of the "write for the enemy" aspect of NPOV. ] <sup>]</sup> 01:14, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' Indefinite topic ban. --<span style="font-family:'Tahoma',Geneva,sans-serif">] <small>(] 📖 ])</small></span> 05:32, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' - Doesn't seem to be able to edit neutrally on the subject. ] (]) 09:11, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' - topic ban, minimum 6 months or more. Just because this user has spent "5 years beautifying the place", doesn't give them a free pass from disruptive editing, personal attacks and discrimination. - '']'' 19:48, 27 March 2016 (UTC) <small>{{color|grey|''(in fact, only certain editors get free passes around here, usually they're buddies with the admins, and this doesn't seem to apply here)''}}</small> | |||
| *'''Support''' as someone who thinks religion is a bunch of grownup fairy tales, though historically important and worthy, on the whole, for what it tries to do. ---- <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 01:07, 28 March 2016 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> | |||
| *'''Support''' Although from a philosophical perspective my thinking is more in line with Pocketthis and EEng, this is an international project which should aim to be more inclusive in its approach to editors. Comments such as those by Pocketthis are counter to these aims and should be duly sanctioned. ] (]) 06:51, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::I think it's unfair both to yourself and to me to fail to emphasize the substantial difference between ourselves and Pocktthis in terms of attitude. ''']]''' 20:08, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per ], ] and ]. ] <span style="color:red">🍁</span> ] ] 12:32, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' - this fight is silly and needs to be apprehended appropriately.--] (]) 19:17, 30 March 2016 (UTC)Chris | |||
| *'''oppose''' seeing that the editor in question hasn't shown that much interest in editing on religious topics. I do think that ] is definitely in order, hwoever. ] (]) 14:47, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| == Is there a different administrator who can look over the EGS article rather than "Guy"? == | |||
| I want to report the "Guy" or "JzG" actions concerning the ] article. He does not like the school, so he is unlikely to make the necessary edit or changes to the article. He blocked me and he has tried to ban me (without any success this time). I do not want to start a war against him because I like to do something else in life. However, I tried to raise some arguments about the EGS accreditation, the recent Maltese accreditation, the fact that U.S. sources are outdated and not official (even if my contribution are lenghty in talk page, I am referring to the official Michigan, Maine and Texas website links which state something different with reference to the EGS accreditation). A prospective student has written in the talk page and "Guy" replied that the topic was "discussed to death already". I note that different administrators have written in the Rfc (@Softlavender,@Vanjagenije,@Damotclese). This has happened each time I try to raise an argument, "Guy" has the final say. He also replied by telling me that I am here to whitewash the Egs article, that I am a WP:SYN (so according to him I should not write anymore in the talk page. In other words, he believes that only long-term editors can raise their arguments and that I should wait some time before writing that EGS is accredited), then that I was a suckpuppetry, latly a meatpuppetry. In conclusion, so long as he acts as an executioner/judge/final say of the article, my contributions to the talk page would be totally worthless. My question: Is there a different administrator who can look over the article rather than "Guy"?] (]) 19:30, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| : Is there an editor who can look at this content other than the ] Claudioalv? Who ''keeps'' demanding that we engage in ] such as listing accreditation of some courses in Malta and asserting based on this that all sources relating to questiona ble accreditaiton be removed as "incorrect", or that we portray the degrees as being recognised throughout the EU when actually the linked ] source contains absolutely nothing demonstrating any obligation to accept degrees accredited elsewhere? And why is a Swiss-headquartered school only able to find accreditaiton in a country whose population is exceeded by that of many of the towns in the US state that lists its degrees as fraudulent, I wonder? | |||
| : All this user has ever done is try to whitewash this article and ] endlessly in the hope that the answer will change if the demand is repeated often enough. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 19:34, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Content dispute. This is no more than a compacted form of ]. Half of the administration is already ] in this (see, your talkpage), and surely that is enough. ] <sup>''''']'''''</sup> 19:44, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::I find this very curious. Why should the article have an entire section on the Graduate school's lack of accreditation in 2 states in the U.S.? Do articles now have to include sections on whether they come up to the standards of the U.S.? Surely there are a zillion other organisations out there which are not accredited by similar organisations in the U.S. For example, several animal breeding organisations will not even recognise each other so should we re-write the articles to say that (imaginary example) the U.K. Hereford Bull Society is not accredited by the U.S. Hereford Bull Society? <span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:red; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">DrChrissy</span> <sup><span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:red; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">]</span></sup> 20:33, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| {{ping|User:Claudioalv}} Why did you delete my posting? <span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:red; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">DrChrissy</span> <sup><span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:red; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">]</span></sup> 21:15, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::: It is clear that "Guy" has more power than half of the administration. Each time I raise an argument the answer is "No" without providing any reasons. It should not take longer to see in the talk page that he is acting as a Supreme Judge/executioner/final say. It is not enough because his conduct has been reckless and biased. He just does not like that an editor (even if is a ]) raises an argument (U.S. source are outdated and that is easy to verify). I was asking to verify and update the U.S. sources, and as a result I was blocked and he tried to ban me. This is a serious problem because freedom of speech is involved. Blocking someone and attempting to ban him without any reason should not be allowed by other administrators. I am not currently asking to edit the article with the contribution I provided (even if there is consensus in the Rfc as you can easily see), I am only asking that someone else not biased can look over the article. thanks for your time. ] (]) 20:44, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::<small>Hear that {{U|JzG|Guy}}? Now you need to kill off the rest in single combat to gain their powers. There can be only one. ] ] <small>Please {{]}}</small> 20:47, 25 March 2016 (UTC)</small> | |||
| :::::<small>Yep. The rest of them are ], ]! ] <sup>''''']'''''</sup> 21:38, 25 March 2016 (UTC)</small> | |||
| Hm, perhaps this issue can be resolved through this venue: ]. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 21:03, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :{{U|DrChrissy(talk)}} I have not deleted any your post. ] (]) 21:19, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Please see this diff. <span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:red; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">DrChrissy</span> <sup><span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:red; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">]</span></sup> 21:27, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :{{U|DrChrissy(talk)}} I apologize. I did not do on purpose, I guess I was writing at the same time you were writing. Sorry again. ] (]) 21:45, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Apology accepted - thank you. The postings were quite close so it may have been an edit conflict. <span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:red; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">DrChrissy</span> <sup><span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:red; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">]</span></sup> 22:04, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :{{U|DrChrissy(talk)}}. Moreover I do agree with your post I have accidently deleted. Besides, the States mentioned in the article state something different than EGS degrees are fraudolent. Texas is current review the inclusion of EGS in the list (the recent Malta accreditation was not on their record), Maine and Michigan do not publish anymore any list of degrees mill. This is really easy to verify. However was not possible to address this argument in the talk page because the final say has been so far "Guy"'s judgment and if you disagree with him, he firstly block you and then he will try to ban. Welcome to the real world. ] (]) 22:00, 25 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Well well, inside information. Thus indicating that you are not independent if this company.] much? <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 00:14, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::]. I am just citing the official links you have ever refused to read. You are aware of this information but you just do not care. Everyone can verify them by clicking the following: , , . ] (]) 00:35, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *My concern here is that JzG is acting both as editor and admin in this discussion. At this point he shouldn't be taking admin actions wrt the article--he clearly has an editorial horse in this race. ] (]) 01:25, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :: I don't think I have ever edited that article other than in an administrative capacity. One does not become involved simply by engaging with an SPA over a long period of time. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 13:20, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::I would not describe the edit here as "administrative". This is a large deletion being made whilst the article is under a long-standing protection allowing only admins to edit. You also stated in the Edit Summary that the addition you reverted was made against consensus - that is not my reading of the Talk page. I also find it "curious" that the admin who made the edit you reverted was the same admin who lifted the block on ] and refuted your accusation of sockpuppetry. <span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:red; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">DrChrissy</span> <sup><span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:red; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">]</span></sup> 14:18, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| * My concern here is that Claudioalv has semi-disclosed a COI; he or she was asked directly about connections with EGS and gave a that didn't answer the question. He/she was asked again , and in , all they said was "I do not personally know EGS but someone was asking me to solve the problem ...". This is not a clear answer. i have asked them again ] on their talk page, and they chose to come here and continue the drama instead of answering there. | |||
| :In my view it is likely that Claudioalv is being paid for their work on this article, either as employee of EGS or as a contractor. In my view - especially in light of their refusal to answer direct questions - Claudioalv should be blocked until they make a clear COI disclosure on their talk page. So much disruption they have caused - Arbcom even, and they have not addressed this basic thing, directly. ] (]) 02:31, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| : ]. I have answered your question. If you think that banning me is the right thing to do go ahead. But at least verify If I have written nonsense or contributions supported by official governmental website (Malta, Michigan, Maine and Texas). thanks. ] (]) 05:37, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| {{out}} The only real question here is why we keep going through the same old shit with this article, and why we continue to allow SPAs and COI editors to have access to it. I suggest long-term semi-protection and dealing out some indef blocks. ] (]) 03:59, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| : ] You are biased toward me like "Guy" because you refused to look at my contributions and the sources I provided. Are COI users not allowed to write? If I find that an article is misleading or incorrect, I join the discussion by posting my contribution. Why shouldn't do it? I have revealed my identity the first time an administrator accepted my unblock request. Do you mean that only "Guy" can edit the article and build a 💕? Wikimedia Foundation legal counsel stated that he is not the final say, but he was probably wrong at this point. ] (]) 05:37, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| : What I find ridiculous is that each time I try to raise an argument aministrators and editors prefer to define me like WP:SYN, sockpuppetry, meatpoppetry, clueless, wide-eyed and now COI, instead to verify that Michigan does not state that EGS confer degree mills, Maine does not publish any official list of No-Accredited School, Texas is currently reviewing the EGS status and an official governmental entity of a E.U. Country has conferred a legitimate accreditation (Malta even if is a small country is still a E.U. contry and part of E.U.) However, the current article states just the contrary, i.e. the school is not accredited and in the U.S. the school is specifically included in a list of degree mill (info that relies on outdated links). ] (]) 05:52, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yes, yes, yes, the whole world is against you (except DrChrissy, apparently), and it's going to stay that way unless you provide the information that Jytdog is asking for - and do so '''''publicly'''''. We don't disallow paid editing, but it '''''must''''' be publicly declared (see ]), and we regulate the ways in which hardcore conflict of interest editors can participate (see ]). As long as you fail to make a clear public declaration of your status in regard to EGS, you're going to get the same kind of treatment that the previous SPAs received. That you were able to convince a single administrator to unblock you (which he should not have done, but that's water under the bridge) is irrelevant, here you're dealing with the entire Misplaced Pages community, and we are '''''passionate''''' about keeping the encyclopedia neutral and not letting it be taken over by '''''any''''' outside entity for promotional purposes (see ]). ] (]) 21:20, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::As I said to you before Claudioalv, I '''strongly''' urge you to complete the COI disclosure work and stop battling here. You are digging yourself a very deep hole the more you push ''in this way.'' You will of course do as you like. ] (]) 10:13, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *Do we really want this seemingly notable-enough article to be deleted just because people are disrupting it? Will that win us anything, or will the ones who disrupt Misplaced Pages be winning? Can this just be semi-protected for a very long time instead and forgotten about already? ] (]) 23:07, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ===Timeline of block=== | |||
| '''Timeline of block''' Much of the problem here seems to focus on JzG's block of Claudioalv. I have prepared below a timeline of the relevant edits. | |||
| *(22:30, 9 February) Claudioalv's first contribution ever to WP is to ] here. | |||
| *(22:48, 9 February) Claudioalv's second contribution ever is again to the Talk:European Graduate School page here. | |||
| *(00:20, 10 February) JzG reverts Claudioalv here. Reverting another user's posting on a talk page is in itself actionable. | |||
| *(00:20, 10 February) Jzg indefinitely blocks Claudioalv, leaving edit summary {{tq|"(Abusing multiple accounts)"}} according to Claudioalv's block log. | |||
| *(16:16, 10 February) Claudioalv's first contribution to their own talk page was here asking to have their block lifted. | |||
| *(23:48, 16 February) Jzg's first ever contribution to Claudioalv's Talk page is here. | |||
| :In other words, I am unable to find any evidence of a discussion about any problem that JzG had with Claudioalv before blocking them. Claudioalv does not have appear to have been warned about the possibility of a block, nor indeed even notified about their block. <span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:red; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">DrChrissy</span> <sup><span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:red; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">]</span></sup> 18:44, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::There is no requirement that one be warned before one is blocked. You still have much to learn. ] (]) 21:02, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::No, it is you that has much to learn - about misrepresenting others postings. Read it again. Where have I said there is a requirement? <span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:red; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">DrChrissy</span> <sup><span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:red; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">]</span></sup> 21:15, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Oh come now, DrChrissy, whatever you are, you cannot convince me that you don't understand what "implication" means. Please don't take us for nitwits. ] (]) 21:22, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::The implication is only in ''your'' head. The reason I raised the lack of warning is that JzG was dealing with a new user. It seems only fair to me that an admin should warn a user of what may happen if the admin is disagreeing with their editing behaviour. Are you seriously arguing that it is appropriate for an admin to block a new user without discussing the problem first and warning them a block is possible? <span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:red; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">DrChrissy</span> <sup><span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:red; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">]</span></sup> 21:31, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Actually, if it were in my head, it would be an "inference" not an "implication" But it ain't. ] (]) 21:38, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Address my question, please. <span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:red; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">DrChrissy</span> <sup><span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:red; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">]</span></sup> 21:42, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *The timeline is right there on the talk page; I will agree that Guy would have done well to talk before blocking. However, ], I can't help but think that you are exporting a personal problem with Guy to this thread, and I should warn you that you shouldn't. ] (]) 21:34, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::There is nothing personal about this at all. I was shocked to see a very experienced admin block a new editor after only 2 edits. I looked further into this and was even more shocked that I could find no evidence to support the reason given for the block, and that there was apparently no discussion with the blocked editor about their behaviour. This, to my mind, is a misuse of the blocking tool. The time line is not clear from the User's talk page because the editor was not informed about their block - I am simply clarifying the timeline and also pointing out that a users posting on a talk page was reverted with no justification. <span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:red; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">DrChrissy</span> <sup><span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:red; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">]</span></sup> 21:53, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::"Shocked" my Great Aunt Fanny. You know, DrChrissy, the more I see your edits in Misplaced Pages space, the more I'm coming to the conclusion that you are '''''deliberately''''' trolling in order to cause disruption. I'm also starting to wonder about your putative lack of experience here. I would advise other editors to keep a close watch on DrChrissy's noticeboard editing - perhaps it might strike a chord with someone as reminiscent of a previous editor, maybe even someone with a bone to pick with Guy. ] (]) 02:31, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::(E/C){{ping|User:Beyond My Ken}} Apologies for shocking your Great Aunt Fanny. Please could you keep the subject of your comments directed to the content, not the editor. Please answer this question directly. Are you accusing me of being a sockpuppet or a meatpuppet? If not, you are invited to strike that last comment. <span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:red; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">DrChrissy</span> <sup><span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:red; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">]</span></sup> 13:54, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::No, nothing to strike. My growing '''''impression''''' from your Wikipediaspace editing is that you seem to be deliberately causing problems, just as my ''''''impression''''' from your conduct is that it's possible you're not as much of a newbie as you claim to be. Those '''''impressions''''' didn't come out of nowhere, they're based on the quality and content of your edits, and they lead to certain possibilities which I would like the community to keep an eye on. ] (]) 14:14, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Are you sure you are discussing this with the correct editor? I have never claimed to be a newbie apart from my very first edits over 5 years ago. My user page shows I have been registered for 5 years and 26 days and this box has been on my user page for as long as I can remember. I repeat, are you confusing me with another editor? <span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:red; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">DrChrissy</span> <sup><span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:red; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">]</span></sup> 14:20, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::No, DrChrissy, I know very well that every time you get into trouble, you beg for leeway because you've not been here long enough to know all the ins and outs of the place. I also know that although you were registered in 2011, your editing counts were quite modest until 2015. . I also know that 2015 was the year that your edits to Misplaced Pages space took off. . (You seem to want to have it both ways: "I am not a newbie" and "Give me a break, I haven't been here that long.") In short, I know who I'm talking about, I'm talking about '''''you''''' and '''''your editing''''' and '''''your disruptions'''''. Those are facts, the questions that're open are if you are being '''''deliberately''''' disruptive or not, and whether the community will see fit to do something about it, eventually. (Aside from your two topic bans, I mean - you do realize that most editors go through their entire productive editing life without ever being topic banned?) ] (]) 15:27, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::That's pretty rich coming from an editor who has been site blocked 9 times! I would ask for diffs about my "beg for leeway", but I won't, because they do not exist. As for the frequency of my edits over time - I have absolutely no idea what point you are trying to make. Anyway, this is all getting well off the subject of the thread and I am sure readers are totally fed up with your false accusations, so I will leave the last word to you. <span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:red; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">DrChrissy</span> <sup><span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:red; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">]</span></sup> 16:01, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::DrC, it's difficult to describe the many inaccuracies in your post. I have never been "site blocked". I have been blocked for edit warring, which is the Misplaced Pages equivalent of a misdemeanor, for '''''very short periods of time''''', and when the block is over, I have been free to continue editing, unencumbered by any restrictions. The most serious item in my block log is the one for "abusing multiple accounts", which was, basically, a misunderstanding when I changed screen names without notifying anyone about it - it's all explained in the "My History" link on my <s>talk</s> user page, which has been there for '''''years''''' - full disclosure of everything. I have '''''never''''' been '''''banned''''' in any respect, as you have.{{parabr}}You seem not to understand that '''''your two topic bans are <u>very big deals</u>''''' indeed, the Misplaced Pages equivalent of a fairly major felony. The next step up from multiple topic bans is, most likely, a complete ''''''site ban''''', which would indefinitely forbid you from editing Misplaced Pages again until the ban is lifted. You've already seen how hard it is to get a '''''topic ban''''' removed, please just imagine how hard it is to get '''''un-site banned'''''.{{parabr}}My final advice to you, which you don't want and won't listen to, is to straighten up your act, stop disrupting the noticeboards to make trouble for admins you believe you have grievances against, stop pushing fringe theories in your editing, and edit strictly according to policy. If you do that, you have a chance that your future history here will go a different way, if you don't -- well, as was said below, you're hearing the sound of the community losing its patience with your nonsense. ] (]) 00:29, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'm pretty sure DrC is not a sock, but ... that sound you hear? It's the community's patience being stretched and it's nearly at snapping point. ] (]) 13:50, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Quite possible, I've been wrong about socks before - but I've more often been right. In any event, I've decided that DrC is really not worth the time or attention -- the bottom line is that he's your standard fringe advocate who simply can't work within the boundaries of Misplaced Pages's policies on non-standard medicine and science, and appears to hold Guy - a firm advocate of those policies - responsible. DrC's motivations are totally transparent, as are his methods. Although more disruptive and persevering than some, his type is pretty much a dime-a-dozen around here, so it's best to let him work his way into more sanctions on his own, since he seems to be pretty good at digging his own holes (like our friend Claudioalv here). ] (]) 15:43, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| : Claudioalv picked up right where a blocked user left off. Checkuser subsequently showed that Claudioalv is a meatpuppet, not a sockpuppet. Another admin assumed good faith and unblocked. As we now see, Claudioalv has done precisely as expected: wasted hours and hours of volunteers' time with querulous demands, novel synthesis and circular argument. | |||
| : As a matter of simple fact, removing talk page comments by suspected socks is not actionable. It's perfectly acceptable. | |||
| : DrChrissy would be wise not to keep coming to the drama boards with vendettas and vexatious complaints. That is likely to lead to a ban form Misplaced Pages space to go with your other two bans. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 22:15, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::So, in fact, your reason for blocking {{tq|"(Abusing multiple accounts)"}} was erroneous. <span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:red; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">DrChrissy</span> <sup><span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:red; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">]</span></sup> 22:33, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::: No, it was not. It was a ] block for sockpuppetry, it turns out that the user is a meatpuppet not a sock puppet, but we do not draw any distinction between the two. One ] is banned, another pops right up, we block. We do it all the time. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 06:37, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'd say there should be more than a mere "suspicion" of sockpuppetry before removing talk page comments becomes perfectly acceptable. ] (]) 01:09, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::I know it's fun to poke someone you have disagreed with, but please have a quick look at the underlying issue first. That would avoid appearing to support an obviously problematic user who wants Misplaced Pages to promote the idea that a shonky business selling degrees has accreditation (re shonky, see for example of institutions whose degrees are <u>illegal</u> to use in Texas—the list includes EGS). Many people try to promote stuff on Misplaced Pages every day, and people like JzG/Guy who deal with them should be thanked and supported, not obstructed with the above retaliation from some unrelated past disagreement. ] (]) 03:09, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::: It wasn't "mere suspicion". There have been a ''lot'' of ]s at that article, and a lot of sockpuppetry too. As usual with a subject whose self-image is at odds with the reliable independent sources, they want to use Misplaced Pages to fix a real-world problem. And as usual the problem is that the facts undermine their commercial activities. This is not our problem to fix, of course. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 06:40, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Please don't be so quick to assume I'm having "fun" to "poke" you because we have disagreed. We have agreed, too. I do not particularly care about the underlying issue here, either. I do take issue with your wording: maybe there was more than "suspicion", but I didn't come up with the "suspicion" terminology, I was reacting to your claim that {{tq|"removing talk page comments by suspected socks is perfectly acceptable"}}. I do not think that's generally accurate, is all. ] (]) 17:42, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: Was that addressed to me? I have no recollection of any disputes with you, which doesn't mean they didn't happen, just that anything that may have happened is currently filed in the ox of things where reasonable people may differ. I don't have any impression of any problematic history between us, and I have no intention of excavating links to try to find one. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 23:32, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Let me add something that may help show I'm not here to annoy Guy: I was informed a while ago, by a checkuser, that it's not even really considered acceptable for me to place "suspected sock" tags (the type with documentation that actually explains they're the ones to be used by non-admins) on user pages of users who have been ''blocked'' for sockpuppetry. But then, conversely, blanket removal of comments by editors who are suspect of sockpuppetry is always perfectly acceptable? I can recognize it's acceptable in some cases, perhaps including this one, but I just disagree with that blanket statement. ] (]) 17:55, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| '''Comment From An Outside Perspective:''' Ok, after looking over all of this, why the hell is the community spending so much time on a C-class article? Don't we ''all'' have more important things to do? If Guy and Claudioalv want to go at it, jut let them. We already know that Claudioalv would end up getting blocked. Also, why the hell this article? Who will ever look at this, besides the two going at it above? Shouldn't we be putting our effort towards something positive? Remember, I'm just looking at this without any involvement. ] ] 02:17, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| * Nothing else is needed to be done. The article is protected (if it's not deleted, I imagine it will remain protected for quite a while). If so, fine. From there, individuals can make edit requests on the talk page. ''Any'' admin including Guy can respond to those requests. The talk page shows that the edit requests are broad based language about accreditation and Guy has been rejecting them. That's fair to me since the page is under heavy dispute and there's no indication of consensus to support adding any of that language to the article. The next steps are to pursue ] or better yet to actually provide the support that would get Guy or any admin to see that there is support for including the text into the page. There is currently an RFC on including the Malta and that's going on how it goes on. If you want to be taken seriously here, don't make 500 demands for variations of puffery based on stringing together things into a source and expect us not to see what's going on here. If there's an RFC on Malta, don't bring up the state of Michigan and keep on expanding it to test how much you can get away with; it's not helping. If say there was something like a refusal by Guy to add a faculty member here, then fine but I'm not seeing anything like that. -- ] (]) 02:35, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| * Just providing an update. My back-and-forth with Claudioalv is wrapping up and I expect that you will hear from each of us in the next day or two. ] (]) 01:24, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| == Source misrepresentation and disruptive editing by nationalist editor == | |||
| {{user|Ferakp}} is making source misrepresentations and deleting sourced information: | |||
| *He writes about an Amnesty International report: "However, Amnesty International has published only one report about the Syrian Kurdish forces and it is related to destroying villages and homes, '''not ethnic cleansing at all'''." | |||
| **However in reality, the report concludes that "The Amnesty International report concluded that '''there are documented cases of forced displacement that constitute war crimes.'''" | |||
| *Here he '''changes the direct quote from a book''' ("Iraq's Dysfunctional Democracy") to something else: | |||
| **He changes: "The goal of these tactics is to push ] and ] communities to identify as ] ]. The Kurdish authorities are working hard to impose Kurdish identity on two of the most vulnerable minorities in Iraq, the Yazidis and the Shabaks". | |||
| ***to: "One of the goal of these tactics is to make ] and ] communities to identify as ] ]. Some Kurdish nationalist have previously tried to impose Kurdish identity on two of the most vulnerable minorities in Iraq, the Yazidis and the Shabaks"." | |||
| *Here he '''deletes statistics of ] which are well sourced''' from the referenced PDF document (p. 31). | |||
| *He '''changes all occurences to the practice of ] to the past''', '''but in reality it is still widely practiced in Northern Iraq''': | |||
| **He also '''deletes that Female Genital Mutilation is practiced''' from the intro, even though it is well documented in the article: | |||
| *He changes 60 percent to "some of them" and deletes cited information: After a source was added that a honour killing victim was Kurdish, he still removes all mention that she was also Kurdish. He claims that he is confused because one of the sources calls her Turkish, but all Turkish Kurds are also Turkish! | |||
| *He was warned many times on his talkpage but always swiftly removes all warnings from his talkpage.--] (]) 23:09, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :: {{reply to | 92.106.49.6}} Amnesty International report is not related to ethnic cleansing at all, it is related to forced displacement and home demolitions. Here is the original report of Amnesty International, you can download it here.<ref>https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde24/2503/2015/en/</ref> Remember that sources you added were "clearly" lying about the report since the report itself never even mention words "ethnic cleansing". So simply the source which says that Amnesty International is accusing them of ethnic cleansing is 100% wrong and biased. About Female Genital Mutilation, two sources were used in one citation and I noticed it after admin marked them. In my second edit, I added a lot of details but he wanted to keep it simple and statements clear so I let it be. Sources you use in Kurdish woman rights are 2-3 years old and it is illegal at this moment. You have been detected at least two times from blackwashing the article. Also, your another friend was caught from blackwashing: Replacing my details with old sources' details even though I had newer sources there. I added sources that the practice is declined and it is now illegal. Also, some of mentioned areas in those reports are now almost clear from FGM as one of my sources says so. That's why I changed them to the past. About Hatun Surucu, she is Turkish, this is because all sources say so. Only your source call she is Kurdish. Here are sources: <ref>http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/hatun-sueruecue-zwei-brueder-in-tuerkei-angeklagt-a-1045405.html</ref><ref>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4345459.stm</ref><ref>http://www.dw.com/en/german-honor-killing-on-trial-in-turkey/a-19004299</ref><--- This source is new from January 2016. One more source, <ref>https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2006/05/germ-m17.html</ref>. All sources say that she is Turkish. You have one source but I have 9 source, including BBC and Spiegel! I have warned by 4 guys and 2 of them were banned or blocked. I remove everything from my talk page, whether it is positive or negative except that sweet Kitty which I got from admin. Also, I am 100% behind my Kurdification changes, I simply neutralized statements. You are absolutely trying to blackwash Kurdish articles. ] (]) 23:43, 26 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| {{reflist}} | {{reflist}} | ||
| ===Send to AE?=== | |||
| :::Reply: ] '''is''' forced displacement. | |||
| :::Yes, Female Genital Mutilation was made illegal, but the law is not being enforced, a fact which you '''also deleted''' from the article: By the way, which source says that it really declined? It is still widely practiced in Iraqi Kurdistan, so it is wrong to claim that it was only practiced in the past. Your deletions in the featured articled on FGM were also reverted. | |||
| :::Regarding Hatun (the honor killing victim), you already know that on the there are many sources that show that she is from a Kurdish family, so your reply is disingenuous.--] (]) 00:09, 27 March 2016 (UTC) {{ping|Spacecowboy420}} {{ping|EkoGraf}} {{ping|Patetez}} {{ping|Denizyildirim}} {{ping|Opdire657}} {{ping|Gala19000}}--] (]) 21:45, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Given how long this has gone on for, may I make a suggestion? Send this to ] since ANI seems incapable of resolving this, and it falls solidly into the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories. ] (]) 21:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::: {{ Reply to | 92.106.49.6 }} Law is accepted, can you read at all? Your source says that it is not enforced and it is from 2012. My source is from 2015 and it clearly says that it is now law and accepted. Read it, here is my source <ref>https://www.hrw.org/news/2012/08/29/iraqi-kurdistan-law-banning-fgm-not-being-enforced</ref>. Here is your source, <ref>https://www.hrw.org/news/2012/08/29/iraqi-kurdistan-law-banning-fgm-not-being-enforced</ref>. Here is my source about declining: <ref>http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/04/iraq-kurdistan-draft-amendment-violence-women-law.html#</ref>. It is from 2015 and it says: ''In the case of FGM, the Iraqi-German nongovernmental organization WADI estimates that around 72% of adult women in Iraqi Kurdistan have undergone the operation. But among girls aged 6 to 10, the rate has dropped to close to zero in some parts of Kurdistan, such as Halabja and Garmiyan, and decreased by half in other places such as Raniya. The usual age for the practice is between ages 4 and 8, according to WADI. Researchers and activists such as Taha are quick to point out that the existing anti-domestic violence law in Kurdistan, passed in 2011, is likely to be the first of its kind in Asia to address FGM. The draft allows girls subjected to FGM to file lawsuits against the perpetrator and those who forced them to undergo the operation. If the girl is a minor, she can file a lawsuit through a trustee.'' Another source <ref>http://www.stopfgmkurdistan.org/html/english/fgm_e.htm#mape</ref> and source even says directly that it is declined ''"In the study, there is evidence for a trend of general decline of FGM. It seems that nowadays less than 50% of the young girls are being mutilated."''. About that honor killing woman, I showed BBC, Spiegel and other top newspapers sources, that's what they say. About your talk page sources. The first one belongs to Welt, it's very weird that one of source is also from Welt and it says she is Turkish not Kurdish. Your second source is from Speigel and it doesn't mention her ethnicity, it says about documentary, but my Spiegel source says she is Turkish. Also, my BBC source says she is Turkish. One of users changed it to Turkish-Kurdish and I didn't touch it anymore. Misplaced Pages rules says more reliable sources win. About ethinic cleansing changes: Ethnic cleansing and forced displacements are totally different things. Amnesty doesn't call it as ethnic cleasing. I showed you the original Amnesty report and it does not blame them from ethnic cleansing. If you don't believe me, read the original source and you can also call them and ask them yourself, do you accuse the YPG of ethnic cleansing or not. Amnesty International knows better than you and me when to call events as ethnic cleansing or not. ] (]) 02:58, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :Another claim that civility complaints are treated differently in "the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories". | |||
| *I can confirm that there's a problem with Ferakp's editing on Kurdish matters. He arrived at ] to remove or alter the context of material about FGM in Iraqi Kurdistan. He removed similar material from ] and ]. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 00:05, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :That matches my experience and I'm grateful to the people willing to say it out loud, but surely it would save a lot of drama and forum shopping if someone just wrote it down? - ] (]) 22:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::The IP made no such claim? - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I thought that was implicit in the request to move the civility complaint to a forum about fringe theories, but you're the expert. - ] (]) 23:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::FYI ] is arbitration enforcement, not the Fringe Theories noticeboard. ] (]) 16:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::That's what I had thought, but the not logged in guy seems to be saying that a civility complaint should be moved to AE because it's a better venue for "the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories". | |||
| :::::It's really striking to me that the main argument here is not over whether Hob is civil, it's whether he should have to be. - ] (]) 20:49, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :As others have noted, being brusque with pseudoscience-pushers is an insignificant offense when compared to agenda-driven editors who are only here to advocate for a fringe topic. Esp. when they have only been editing for a handful of months. ] (]) 23:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :: I have done thousands of edits and improvements and sometimes some users are not happy but I have never vandalized or caused any problems. I explained my ] edits above. About Iraqi Kurdistan changes, the source doesn't say anything like that. The statement in the article said that "Human Rights Watch reported that ] is practiced mainly by Kurds in Kurdistan; reportedly 60% percent of Kurdish women population have undergone this procedure, although the KRG claimed that the figures are exaggerated." <---- This is absolutely falsified statement. Source talk about Iraqi Kurdistan not about Kurdistan. They are totally different things. Also, I couldn't find that "60%" from the source. This source was used --> <ref>http://www.hrw.org/en/world-report-2010/abusing-patients</ref>. About change of this link, https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Kurdish_women&type=revision&diff=709007260&oldid=706367606. The first one says that ''...also continue to face numerous problems, including violent victimization through ], ], forced marriage, child marriage, rape, domestic violence, female infanticide and acid throwing.'' This is absolutely not true, we are talking about all Kurdish women. There is one reported acid throwing and it's very old, so how could it be continuous? I deleted them from lead but left them in the article. I didn't remove them, they are all still in the article and people can read it. FGM is only in Iran. In Turkey, Syria and Iraqi, it's illegal. Honor killings are problems and it already tells that it's continuing. Domestic violence is also mentioned in its section and also others. I added much more details to lead section. Before my edits it was totally blackwashed. Du'a Khalil Aswad is Yazidi and Yazidis are not the Kurds. They are Yazidis. Also, the articles with its sources says that she is Iraqi Yazidi. | |||
| ::While I do agree that from an objective and absolute POV (e.g., of an external user evaluating Misplaced Pages) it is better to have an uncivil but pseudoscience-free Misplaced Pages than a civil but pseudoscientific Misplaced Pages, from a subjective and relative POV (e.g., of editors making internal decisions together) it is impossible to systematically abandon a relatively less important principle on the basis of a relatively more important principle without completely annihilating the less important principle. That's why ] is policy. | |||
| ::I added this ''Honor killings was serious problem among Muslim communities until Iraq illegalized it.''. It's true, it was legal but now illegal. It was serious problem among Muslim communities. Also, source says so. | |||
| ::Moreover, as others have also noted, because WP:CIVIL is a principle that at some point does get acted upon, we would all be better off if no one, on any side of any given debate, would minimize it. ]. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿ ] (] ])</span> 10:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Changed media to Turkish media because source says so. Other changes are adding more details. I just added more details and neutralized statements. The report from Iraqi Kurdistan is not related to the all Kurds. That's why many were changed to some when all Kurds were mentioned. Also, ''In Iraq, non-Kurdish women and society are more liberal. Especially under Saddam Hussein, women had many rights and liberties, including strong economic rights. <ref>Kriesberg. Constructive Conflicts: From Escalation to Resolution. 1998 http://che.tribe.net/thread/0ae203bb-6aae-4297-a993-83993cf48c7d</ref>'' was removed. The source doesn't mention where that information was gathered and it is based to what study. Because the source is blog (thread) and only some of statements are cited, I see it as a unreliable source. In the source, "In Iraq, non-Kurdish women and society are more liberal" statement was not mentioned but another statement was mentioned. However, because it is blog/thread, I see it as unreliable source. As far as I know, blogs and thread in forums are not allowed as sources. I might be wrong. | |||
| ::Too much presumption of intent here with regard to 'pseudoscience-pushers'. It is easy for us to diminish our opponents in this way. Civility and NPOV are equal pillars. ] (]) 15:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| The only mistake I did was removing this statement -- >''The Free Women's Organization of Kurdistan (FWOK) released a statement on International Women's Day 2015 noting that “6,082 women were killed or forced to commit suicide during the past year in Iraqi Kurdistan, which is almost equal to the number of the Peshmerga martyred fighting Islamic State (IS),” and that a large number of women were victims of honor killings or enforced suicide – mostly self-immolation or hanging.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://basnews.com/en/news/2015/03/05/over-6000-women-killed-during-the-last-year-in-kurdistan/ |publisher=BasNews |title=Kurdistan: Over 6,000 Women Killed in 2014}}</ref>'' However, the source didn't work and I tried very hard to find it but I didn't. The link is still not working. Also, I tried to find the report from the organization's website but I didn't find it. ] (]) 02:58, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :I '''second''' to motion to bring this to ]. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 04:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Could an admin review and see whether a topic ban would be appropriate?--] (]) 01:06, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ===Topic ban for Lardlegwarmers=== | |||
| : My message to reviewer. I have done nothing wrong except in FGM article, I didn't notice the source. I explained all my changes and this is the first time someone reports me. I have edited and improved tons of times and for me it's normal that there is sometimes users who are against my changes, but I have always solved disputes. If you are going to give me a ban, please give me a permanent ban, not topic ban. I am so tired of users like 92.106.49.6 and similar users which have nothing to do than blackwash articles related to the Kurds. Thank you ] (]) 03:15, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| {{reflist talk}} | |||
| {{userlinks|Lardlegwarmers}} | |||
| ::Ferkp, when a government bans FGM, that doesn't stop it from happening to girls. Enforcement of anti-FGM legislation is poor all over the world, with the exception of France. And laws don't change the fact that women who had already undergone FGM before the change in the law continue to live with its health consequences. There was a high prevalence of FGM among adult women in Iraqi Kurdistan in 2011, according to UNICEF. You removed the information. When you were reverted, you tried to change the context in which it was presented, and also tried to present it as Iraq, not as Iraqi Kurdistan. That kind of editing is a problem. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 03:36, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| A cursory look through this account's contributions has me convinced that they ought not to be contributing to COVID-19 Lab Leak Theory pages, widely construed. More generally, it seems they are using Misplaced Pages as a ] to promote a lot of what I would deem "anti-establishment" claims which necessarily run right up against the ] remit of our encyclopedia. In fact, they are close to being a ] in this regard. Topic ban from American Politics might help reorient their problematic proclivities. | |||
| ::: Did I say somewhere that it stops it? I said that it is illegal now. The user who reported me still claim that it is not enforced but I showed source that it is accepted and it is official law. Iraqi Kurdistan is Iraq. There no such country Iraqi Kurdistan. The source mentions Kirkuk and Kirkuk is not the Iraqi Kurdistan, it's officially Iraq. It is illegal now in Iraqi Kurdistan and that has killed the practice in many regions as my newest sources say. I didn't change the context, I added details but you removed them without any reason, explaining by something very weird reason. There ''was'' high prevalence and that information was still there after my edits. My edits didn't remove any details, it still kept details. One edit I made by mistake and it was related to statistics. In another edit, I was thinking to add much more details to ethnicity section but you didn't even leave me to edit it. As I said, I made mistake and I accept it. I have edited and improved thousands of times and sometimes you make mistakes. If I get ban then at least I know I am in the wrong place doing the wrong thing. ] (]) 05:15, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Blackwashing is not best handled by whitewashing, but by changing the article to be neutral. ] --] (]) 05:36, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: That's has been my main objective in previous 300 edits. You can see from my contributions that my edits have related mainly to neutrality. ] (]) 15:28, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::"Neutrality" by hiding everything related to FGM and honour killings, or claiming that it was the Turkish families, not Turkish-Kurdish ones (as it was). Everything that doesn't hide the facts about Female Genital Mutilation, honour killings or forced displacement of minorities is "blackwashing", even UNICEF and Amnesty International . But you have now qualms in "blackwashing" the whole time Turks, Arabs, Iranians, and others. Ferakp also just removed the entire human right section from the , because the content is already in the Human rights article. But at least a summary of the human rights should be left. --] (]) 22:07, 27 March 2016 (UTC) {{ping|GGT}} {{ping|Ottomanor}}{{ping|Chickchick77}} | |||
| ::::::: Looks like you have nothing to do than following my changes from my contr+ page and pasting them here. Why don't you also tell us how I stopped one "Turkish" user who vandalized more than 13 Kurdish articles? About this the edit , Rojava has its own article for Human right in Rojava, it is called ]. I transferred those statements and sources from ] article to ]. | |||
| ::::::: Can you tell what is wrong with this edit?-->. Kurds are mentioned with "Kurdish" and I also mentioned Turkish guy with "Turkish" name because he was a Turk according to all sources. Ordinary Turkish mentality, try to always blame the Kurds. | |||
| ::::::: : What makes this edit blackwashing if source says so directly? Source says (page 7): ''The available source material suggests that honour killings primarily occur among tribal peoples such as Kurdish, Lori, Arab, Baluchi and Turkish-speaking tribes. These groups are considered to be more socially conservative than the Persians, and discrimination against women in attitude and in practice is seen as being deeply rooted in tribal culture.'' The page was blackwashed to show only the Kurds but I neutralized and mentioned all who practice it in Iran. ] (]) 16:00, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :Regarding the original points I made above, Ferakp has: | |||
| :*On the first point about the Amnesty International report, he still fails to see that forced displacement is a form of ]. (source misrepresentation) | |||
| :*He hasn't said anything about changing a direct quote from a book (source misrepresentation) | |||
| :*He admitted a mistake in deleting FGM statistics from UNICEF | |||
| :*He still fails to see why he shouldn't change all occurences to the practice of Female Genital Mutilation to the past (and delete FGM from the lead, and delete that it is practiced in "Iraqi Kurdistan"), while in reality it is still widely practiced in Iraqi Kurdistan (source misrepresentation) Yes, Female Genital Mutilation was made illegal, but the law is not being enforced, a fact which he also deleted from the article: | |||
| :*He disingenuously still claims that Hatun (the honour killing victim) is not Kurdish, even though he knows on the talkpage there are plenty of sources saying she is Turkish-Kurdish (and in the German wikipedia page). In another case, he even specifies that a man from Turkey is a "Turkish" man from Turkey . He also makes false claims in articles as here . | |||
| :*Going through his edits, there are plenty of cases of Ferakp misrepresenting sources, deleting incovenient facts, adding false claims, ... --] (]) 22:19, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ] (]) 21:38, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :: Try to understand me a little bit. You can't call the event as ethnic cleansing because your "logic" see connection between their acts and ethnic cleansing acts. There is standards and requirements for calling something as ethnic cleansing. Amnesty International uses that word carefully because you have to come with tons of evidences. You can't call that event as ethnic cleansing if only ~180 houses are destroyed in 19 different locations. Look, for example Amnesty International use in another their report words"ethnic cleansing" because they classify it as a ethnic cleansing. <ref>http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/news-item/gruesome-evidence-of-ethnic-cleansing-in-northern-iraq-as-islamic-state-moves-to-wipe-out-minorities</ref> The reason why they didn't call it ethnic cleansing in the YPG/PYD related article is because it's a far away from to be classified as a ethnic cleansing. You are just trying to blackwash Kurdish articles. Admit it. This is 7th time you are clearly trying to blackwash Kurdish articles. | |||
| :: Which book? | |||
| :: They are past events, because it is law now and it is illegal. Your sources were from 2011 and 2012. Law was accepted in 2015 and as my source says it has almost killed the practice in many regions. | |||
| :: There is tons of sources which say that she is Turkish and you show me a few sources which say she is Kurdish. Also, my newest source is from this year. However, I let one user to keep it Turkish-Kurdish because that was our optimal solution. | |||
| :: What is the problem with this edit, <ref> https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Honor_killing&diff=prev&oldid=700891970</ref>? Can you tell me? I added small survey to the front of survey because it was small survey. Look what the source says: ''The survey group was small but the results are a reminder..''. My 8th evidence that you are trying to blackwash Kurdis articles. | |||
| :: Excuse me can you show my your claims about ''"Going through his edits, there are plenty of cases of Ferakp misrepresenting sources, deleting incovenient facts, adding false claims"''? It's clear that you are blackwashing Kurdish articles. I have 8 clear evidences that you are trying to blackwash Kurdish articles, I would have reported you and requested ban but you are one of those who change their IPs every time so I won't waste admin's time for such thing.] (]) 16:15, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| == Edit warring to prevent an RFC == | |||
| *There's a 2014 survey on FGM in Iraqi Kurdistan ; UNICEF summary . It could be used to update ] or ], or to create ]. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 22:15, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| @] has removed an RFC tag from ] now within . | |||
| : {{reply to | SlimVirgin}} Thanks for the source SarahV, I will use it to update articles.] (]) 04:17, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| You have been caught at least 9 times from blackwashing Kurdish articles, calling me nationalist editor, trying to show my edits which are related to neutralization as blackwashings and following me. You are clearly blackwashing Kurdish articles, as I proved above, if someone has to get warning or ban, it should be you.] (]) 16:03, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ] provides a list of circumstances under which you can stop an RFC started by someone else, and disagreeing with the question or wishing that it contained additional information is not in the list. | |||
| * Ferakp's confrontational tone and disruptive style can be seen from the discussion above, with his clear ad hominem arguments to justify his actions and allusion to criminal proceedings ("caught"). I have also suffered from his lack of collaboration personally; as soon as we had an editing issue on ], he posted to my talk page claiming that I was editing from a Turkish POV and using Misplaced Pages as the Turkish government's encyclopedia. Ferakp not only misrepresents sources as evidenced above, but also editoralises to imply a particular position. This can be seen in his unsourced addition, which implies that Amnesty was cornered by YPG's claims, and more blatantly , where he adds a statement that is undoubtedly correct (perhaps as there were no military casualties) but is not part of the literature concerning the event and about which he could not even find a source to support, in order to push TAK's viewpoint that the Turkish government hides military casualties in this attack ostensibly targeted to the military. Also see . He has also repeatedly removed reliably sourced material, seen about statements regarding the persecutions of Assyrians and human rights in an attempt to whitewash. Despite the fact that the ] are described as Kurdish in the relevant article (I am no expert on the issue and any disputes on ethnic identity belong there), Ferakp has repeatedly negative incidents involving Yazidi women from the article on ] without specifying the "sources" against Daily Mail as in here for example. In the same article, he has removed and reliably sourced details about violence against Kurdish women from the article (e.g. Human Rights Watch, a Kurdish newspaper) claiming that these were "blackwashing". When it came to ascribing positive topics Kurdishness, however, he manipulates sources as amply evidenced above: , for example, when his sources do not define him as Kurdish but use the term "of Kurdish origin", which is how it currently is in the article (one of his sources actually defines Kemal as Turkish, obviously alluding to nationality, as opposed to ethnicity). Source manipulation can also be seen , when he himself admits that two languages were spoken in the family but writes otherwise. | |||
| * Now, it is Ferakp's turn to come and claim that I am an anti-Kurdish Turkish nationalist and write lengthy refutations, which is getting really tiresome by now. I hope, however, that the evidence above will help establish the destructive and disruptive pattern that characterises this user's editing. --] (]) 12:58, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :: I am 100% behind my messages and edits which you mentioned. About Yasar Kemal, I told you so many times that the person was Kurdish, not a Turk. I added sources and you deleted my sources. I told you to at least keep sources and use talk page until we solve it. Try to understand it, also tell it to your friends who 24/7 try to change Hamdi Ulukaya article to show him as a Turk even though I have tons of articles even his own video about himself. <br/> I am totally supporting the edit : About the lack of interest, it is Turkish claim. If you read news like this <ref>http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/09/turkey-kurds-education-in-mother-tongue-schools.html#</ref> you will realize that Turkish press is closed like in North Korea (Press freedom Index) and nothing unbiased comes from them when it comes to Kurdish related news. So, if the Kurds say that they are not allowed to open schools, they are continuously closed and international newspapers confirm them, is it not a fair to keep one biased Turkish source which claims that they weren't interested.. That's why I showed it as a claim but kept it despite the source was unreliable.<br/> About Yazidi woman, I am going to repeat again, Dailymail is not reliable source and she is Yazidi not a Kurd. Just read her article and sources related to her. Tons of articles says she is Yazidis and Iraq. Yazidis are not Kurds, they are recognized as different ethnic group by the UN. <br/> About the edit : How many times, I have to explain this edit. Let me explain again even though it is already explained. About the first edit, the source says: ''The rate of FGM was discovered to be 21 percent in West Azerbaijan, 18 percent in Kermanshah, and 16 percent in Kurdistan, according to field interviews and research conducted by Ahmady and his team.'' The article said that ''A 2015 study by Kurdish social anthropologist Kameel Ahmady found and assessed a 16% rate of female genital mutilation in Western Iran, where it is mostly practiced by Sunni Shafi’i Kurds who speak the Sorani dialect.'' Here comes the problem. The source didn't say that it is 16% in Western Iran, it said 16% in Kurdistan. What does source means with "Kurdistan" is still unclear. Did he mean all Kurdistan, including Iraq, Turkey and Syria or does it means only Iranin Kurdistan? If source meant Iranian Kurdistan, then it is not Western Iran, it is officially North Western Iran. However, I assumed that the source really meant 16% in Western Iran so I tried to find the claim that it is mostly practiced by Sunni Shafi’i Kurds who speak the Sorani dialect. However, the source doesn't say anything like that, not even close. The source says that ''Among the Kurds in Iran, FGM is mainly practiced by Sunni Shafi’i Kurds who speak the Sorani dialect, but not among Sunni Shafie Kurds who speak the Kermanji dialect'', let me repeat, '''among the Kurds in Iran''', not in Western Iran as the Misplaced Pages article claimed. So I simply deleted because it was clearly falsified. Statement related to statistics said "is" but it's not true because the source I added clearly said that it is dropped everywhere to under 50% and in some regions, it is almost 0%. If I would have deleted "statistics", I would have deleted that 72% also. I didn't and I leave it because that is true, unlike other statistics about regions which weren't true anymore because I had source for them. I already explained 3 times that the law about FGM is allowed so that statement which says that it is not enforced is not true anymore, that's why I removed it. There is my source above. If you think that edit is wrong, then you simply protect blackwashing Kurdish pages. Keeping falsified statement about FGM, FGM statistics which is not valid anymore and statement about FGM law which also not valid anymore is nothing else than blackwashing. I would have understood if you would have for example presented statistics in table and mentioned that they are from 2011 or 2012 or have said that law wasn't accepted until 2015 but keeping those despite new sources is clearly blackwashing. ] (]) 21:30, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| We have to be pretty strict about this, because an RFC is one of the few ways to attract the broader community's attention when there's an ] problem or a ] that needs outside attention. The fact that an editor doesn't welcome outside attention sometimes indicates that there is a problem. I'm ''not'' saying that these things are happening in this case, but the rules have to be the rules for all RFCs, not just for the ones we agree with, because these things do happen in ''some'' cases. We can't really have opponents of an RFC question/proposal, no matter how well intentioned or how justified they think it is in this one case, unilaterally deciding that the rest of the community doesn't get to find out about the dispute. | |||
| Removing information negative information can be whitewashing. I don't agree with Ferakp's view that his edits are only aimed at restoring neutrality. Many of them are removing reliably sourced negative information. This conflict looks to me as a typical example of two editors with opposite biases trying to make the article what *they* think is neutral, and then assuming bad faith on the case of the other editor. The only solution is probably to get more editors involved, especially uninvolved neutral editors. --] (]) 14:21, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| I wouldn't bother with this here, except that it's already past my bedtime, so I need someone else to handle this. The proper way forward is to run the RFC, and for the loyal opposition to take the advice about how to respond that they'll find in the first two questions of the ]. See you tomorrow. ] (]) 08:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : You better tell this to the user who reported me.This is because the user is continuously blackwashing Kurdish articles with another Turkish troll group. The same user who reported me is cooperating with Shadow4dark user, you usually find them and some other users always in same pages blackwashing Kurdish articles and whitewashing Turkish-PKK related pages. For example, Shadow4dark has added Kurdish terrorism category to every Kurdish article he has visited and the user who reported me has cooperated with Shadow4dark, he just deleted speed deletion tag which another user added to the ]. The user deleted it and didn't explain or use talk page to tell why he/she thinks that it is not meeting speedy deletion requirements. The same user also tried remove my all details which neutralized the Kurdish articles. As I mentioned above, there is clear evidence that this user with other users are doing nothing else than blackwashing Kurdish articles and whitewashing articles related to them. I proved 9 times that this users is deleting newest sources and replacing with oldest ones. Also, this user has showed many my edits as whitewashing even though I proved that they are clearly related to neutralization, just read my messages above. | |||
| :As previously explained elsewhere, I removed the tag because my understanding is that the serious COI issues invalidate the RfC. | |||
| ::I'm telling it to you, FerakP. Although obviously, it goes for all of you. --] (]) 20:57, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :I am perfectly happy to take instruction on that point if I am incorrect but the removals were undertaken in good faith. | |||
| :The idea that I should be reported to ANI for this just because it is past someone's bedtime (and they don't have time for talk page discussion) seems to me rather an over-reaction. ] (]) 08:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Indeed, I am perfectly happy to volunteer to replace the tag if an administrator indicates that that is the appropriate course of action. ] (]) 08:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{u|Axad12}}, please do not tamper with the RFC. I have already commented there again based on my previous assessment five weeks ago, and I have ''absolutely no'' conflict of interest in this matter. In my opinion, you are taking too aggressive a stance on this issue. I happen to be an administrator but I am also involved with the dispute as an ordinary editor. ] (]) 08:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{u|Axad12}}, I'd strongly suggest you return the tag. {{u|WhatamIdoing}}, a {{tl|trout}} for ]ing. - ] <sub>]</sub> 08:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Thank you for both of your advice. I will shortly replace the template. | |||
| ::::The COI issue does not relate to Cullen, it relates to another user entirely. I would be grateful for input on the underlying COI issue, which seems to me to have been an exceptionally serious abuse. ] (]) 09:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::What? A company quite reasonably does not want to be ''falsely accused'' of adulterating their edible product with antifreeze, based on what a fringe source wrote, and you consider that {{tpq|exceptionally serious abuse}}? ] (]) 09:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :No, I'm referring to the series of events outlined here where a paid COI editor has a COI edit request turned down and then starts cultivating a co-operative project member to implement non-contentious COI edit requests before reintroducing the contentious COI edit request and immediately tipping off their repeatedly canvassed project member to implement that contentious request. | |||
| :I feel that that is an exceptionally serious abuse - clearly it is an attempt to distort the COI editing process by attempting to make sure that a previously co-operative project member deals with a resubmitted request rather than waiting for a random volunteer working out of the relevant queue (one of whom had previously declined the request). | |||
| :As I said above, I am quite happy to take instruction on this point - but personally I feel that what happened there was highly inappropriate. ] (]) 09:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::In other words, you want highly misleading content to remain in the article, just to make a point? ] (]) 09:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Cullen, my post directly above is clearly about a point of process rather than a point of content. | |||
| :::Even if the original COI edit request was incorrectly declined that would not justify the paid COI editor attempting to game the system to get the request through at the second time of asking. ] (]) 09:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::"Asking a second time" is not ]. ] (]) 22:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Agreed, but for a COI user to attempt to influence which user will deal with the second request does constitute gaming the system. ] (]) 22:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::No, it doesn't. Read the guideline instead of guessing about its contents from the ]. See, e.g., {{xt|An editor ''gaming the system'' is seeking to use policy in bad faith, by finding within its wording some apparent justification for disruptive actions and stances that policy is clearly not at all intended to support.}} Asking an individual to help has nothing to do with finding wording in a policy to justifying disruptive actions or stances that are not intended in that policy. | |||
| ::::::I also direct your attention to the item that says {{xt|Gaming the system may include...]ing the consensus-building process}}. ] (]) 22:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I was using the phrase 'gaming the system' in it's natural application (not specifically referring to ], which I didn't know existed until you linked to it above). Clearly the COI user was attempting to distort the COI edit request process in some way - whether one refers to what they were doing as 'gaming the system' or some other similar phrase is neither here nor there. ] (]) 23:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Also worth noting that ever since the original COI edit request back in August the clear talk page consensus has been that the material should remain within the article and is not {{tq|highly misleading}}. | |||
| :::I've been part of that consensus position since approx October/November. Since that time the user who opened the RfC has repeatedly been opening new threads, continually trying to re-address a subject where they are repeatedly in the minority and presumably hoping that those who previously opposed them do not turn up to oppose them again. ] (]) 10:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Maybe we should hold an RFC on whether the RFC tag should be there? ] (]) 09:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Right, I've had breakfast now so am in a position to make a more serious reply. This is a content issue (on which I hold, as yet, no opinion). On this page we often tell editors that the way to settle a content issue that hasn't been settled by more informal methods is by holding an RFC. Axad12, you should express your opinion as part of the RFC, not oppose holding it. By your behaviour you are turning people against you who might have supported you. ] (]) 10:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I've already said that I'd be happy to replace the tag if instructed to do so, and upon being instructed to do so I immediately replaced it. As far as I can see that issue is now resolved. | |||
| ::I've asked for comment on the underlying COI issue, which is not a content issue. ] (]) 11:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::RFCs can handle COI issues. In fact, when ] can't resolve a dispute, they sometimes host an RFC to settle it. The nice thing about an RFC in such situations is that if it closes with an outcome like "The consensus is stick it to these fully policy-compliant, completely disclosed paid editors by making sure that this article implies the company's product was adulterated with a poisonous industrial chemical, just because we found one ] book that used this language, because it's really unreasonable of them to not want sensationalist and derogatory information in our article about their product" then you can generally be sure that the result will stick for at least 6 months and usually longer. | |||
| :::But you've got to get that consensus first, and I'm not sure you will. For one thing, it's been my ] experience that when someone objects to holding an RFC because the question is biased, that's a fairly reliable sign that they expect the RFC result to not match their preference. ] (]) 22:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::My concern (rightly or wrongly) was simply that there was a COI element to the request which had not been disclosed. I swiftly requested clarification on that point and upon receiving that clarification I immediately reverted myself. | |||
| ::::It isn't really relevant here but actually I ''didn't'' expect the RfC to develop contrary to my preference. That was because the previous 4 months had indicated a consistent consensus opposing what the instigator of the RfC was proposing. In fact, to be perfectly honest, I don't actually have a particularly strong preference one way or the other on the issue at stake - I've simply consistently observed during November and December that the consensus was against Zefr, which seemed to me to be a simple matter of fact based on the various talk page threads from August to December. ] (]) 23:38, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *On matters concerning the Breyers article, Axad12 has been an uncollaborative, disruptive, and hostile editor ] with {{u|Graywalls}}, who is the main proponent over months of using the slur, "antifreeze", to describe a minor GRAS ingredient that is the subject of the current RfC. Both users have ignored requests on the talk page to collaborate for a factual, well-sourced article. | |||
| :::{{u|OpenFuture}}, this is not simply a POV conflict. Of course everyone will have their perceptions of neutrality and of course some inherent bias may be present on my part. That goes without saying. However, having been involved in numerous debates about this volatile and politically sensitive region (and never raised one issue here at ANI about any user), it is very clear to me that this is not about a POV conflict (which would look like ]) and that there is an important behavioural problem about this user that is certainly not the case with other users I have disputed with. Consistently adding unsourced, editorialised content based on one's perception of events, manipulating the content of sources (just as he did in his recent text about Yaşar Kemal) whilst consistently removing reliably sourced content on trivial pretexts, whilst continuously accusing others at every dispute of "blackwashing", "disruptive editing", "collaborating" is not a POV problem. It is a behavioural problem and is ]. My having different perceptions of neutrality whilst pointing out a destructive editing pattern that continues despite warnings does not invalidate concerns raised about his editing pattern and does not reduce this to an "it goes for all of you" dispute. The editing patterns of other users here, I believe, are incomparable to that of Ferakp, who has not expanded a single article without adding positive material about Kurdish people or negative material about other ethnic groups. For all his activity on content issues, this user has only created original article and the subject matter of that article speaks for itself. For all his stance about Kurds, which in other circumstances would be perfectly fine, he has not even expanded one Kurdish-related (or otherwise) article when ethnic issues or negative material about Kurds were not at stake. --] (]) 12:09, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::: {{u|GGT}} Check my edits again, think twice, read your answer again and think again, is it really true what you just wrote here. About Yasar Kemal, I added sources and told you that sources say so. You can't force anyone to be "Turkish" if he is not. You removed details about him and my sources. You had a chance to use talk page but you just reversed my changes. I had to myself start a new section in the talk page.] (]) 20:41, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Well, if it wasn't a behavioral problem, the POV conflict would be soon resolved as the involved editors would rationally discuss the issue and come to a NPOV compromise. ;-) But anyway, my point was that this is not ONE editor who is to blame here. But both sides are behaving wrongly. It may very well be that Ferakp is a worse offender, I'm not going to spend time making a statistical analysis of it. No matter who starts the fight, breaking Misplaced Pages policy is the incorrect response. --] (]) 12:41, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Having never contributed a sentence or source to the Breyers article, Axad12 has blatantly reverted simple, sourced edits claiming a false consensus which has no good source to support the propylene glycol/"antifreeze" claim and no evidence of consensus input by other editors over the last many weeks. An evolving consensus on the RfC is to exclude mention of propylene glycol as undue. | |||
| ::::: I am not sure what could make me a worse offender, is it that I proved that all accusations are not true and I am absolutely right, or that I neutralized articles using reliable and newest sources. You should tell those editors that they should focus on their own articles instead of blackwashing Kurdish related articles 24/7. I am tired to clean Kurdish articles from their fictitious references (I showed 4 of them) and claims. ] (]) 04:19, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::"focus on their own articles instead of blackwashing Kurdish related articles" - could not have a statement that shows the ] mentality. What would be "my articles" now, Ferakp? --] (]) 16:58, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Scientific and legal literature concerning propylene glycol (]) placed on the talk page have been ignored by both users, without attempts to discuss or apply what any objective editor reading the sources would agree are authoritative. | |||
| == Continued Disruption by ] == | |||
| '''Proposal''': Because of Axad12's hostile attempt to revert a legitimate RfC, tag-team behavior with Graywalls on the Breyers article edits, canvassing each other on its talk page, and ], Axad12 and Graywalls should be ] from the Breyers article and its talk page. | |||
| Seeking Admin intervention or community action to control disruption by ]. At a bit of a loss about how to deal with this: | |||
| *<s>'''Support'''</s>. ] (]) 21:43, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Spouting nonsense about G11 not applying to drafts ] | |||
| :Strike as withdrawn for Axad12 ABAN to concur with {{u|Cullen328}} and the ''oppose'' decisions below. | |||
| *Reverted CSD tagging on a hoax article | |||
| ::{{u|Graywalls}} is a separate case remaining undecided here. Over the 2024 article and talk page history at Breyers, this user was the main purveyor of disinformation, and has not acknowledged his talk page hostility and errors of judgment, despite abundant presentation of facts, sources, explanations, and challenges for information below. Graywalls should commit to abstain from editing the Breyers article for a given period, as Axad has done. ] (]) 00:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Sustained and inappropriate attacks against me that need a boomarang and then | |||
| ::{{re|Zefr}}, your domineering and territoriality to that article is a big part of escalation and if anyone, it should be you who should refrain from it. Blatantly disregarding consensus and going so far as saying {{tq|Statements of facts supported by reliable sources do not need talk page consensus.|tq}} as done in which goes to show you feel you're above consensus. You weren't persuaded until you were corrected by two administrors {{u|Aoidh}} and {{u|Philknight}} on the matter on the belief you're entitled to insert certain things against consensus. You also were blocked for the fifth time for edit warring in that article, with previous ones being at different articles with dispute with other editors, which shows your lack of respect for community decision making. ] (]) 17:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * reverting many changes to policy and immediately asking ] to fully protect the page "due to edit warring" to protect his preferred text. | |||
| :::Well, your concept of what was a false consensus has been dismissed by the RfC result, so you should move on from this bitterness and distortion of truth. In reply to Aoidh and Philknight at the Breyers talk page, I stated in my next comment, ''"Yes, a key word <u>unintentionally omitted</u> in my response concerning statements and sources was "verifiable".'' As there are few watchers/editors of the Breyers article (62 as of today, probably many from Unilever who do not edit), I provided statements of facts verified by reliable sources, whereas this simple practice appears to not be in your editing toolkit. | |||
| *Seeking more eyes on his nonsense at AN after he spectacularly failed to get any support for a topic ban against me | |||
| :::The obligation remaining with you in this discussion is to respond to below in the section, '''The actual content that led to this dispute.''' Let's have your response to that, and your pledge to abstain from editing the Breyers article - you did say on the talk page on 29 Nov that you would "delegate the actual editing to someone else." I think your defiance to respond to challenges in this discussion section affirms my recommendation that you are ABANNED from the Breyers article and IBANNED from attacking me because you are unable to face the facts. ] (]) 18:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Canvassing and speculation about tag teaming | |||
| ::::It was a suggestion that someone, meaning neither YOU or I. Not that Zefr continue editing and not I. Your controlling, ] approach was a significant portion of the problem. Additionally, you proposed administrative sanctions against me, but did not tell me about it as required. I only figured out after someone told me about it on my talk page. Why did you do that? ] (]) 19:36, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *General incivility and lack of ] | |||
| :::::You had already been notified of the problem you caused at the Breyers article Now, you are engaged in to avoid answering the Cullen328 paragraphs and the several requests for you to explain and own up to your disruptive behavior and non-collaboration. Regarding OWN, there are few editors at Breyers. I countered your attempts to slander the article with the "antifreeze" term and bogus diet book references by applying verifiable facts and sources. | |||
| :::::OWN:''"Being the primary or sole editor of an article does not constitute ownership, provided that contributions and input from fellow editors are not ignored or immediately disregarded. Editors familiar with the topic and in possession of relevant reliable sources may have watchlisted such articles and may discuss or amend others' edits. This too does not equal ownership, provided it does not marginalise the valid opinions of others and is adequately justified."'' If you had offered valid content and sources, I would have collaborated. | |||
| :::::I'm sure editors have seen enough of your personal grievances expressed here. Please stop. I'm not returning unless an exception occurs. ] (]) 20:41, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *You need to notify Graywalls of this discussion. I have done so for you. In the future, remember to do so yourself. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:'''Oppose''': I have reverted Zefr on 3 occasions on the Breyers article over the last few months. That was because the edits they had made were, at that time, contrary to talk page consensus. The fact that I had not contributed to the article is neither here nor there in that regard. | |||
| *:I have not {{tq|ignored requests on the talk page to collaborate}}, I have simply objected to Zefr's repeated attempts over a 3 month period to re-open a discussion where the consensus has always been against them. | |||
| *:Six different users have previously objected to the changes Zefr has been trying to make and that was clearly a majority of those who commented between August and December 2024. | |||
| *:I accept that the current RfC is going Zefr's way, however that fact should not be used to reinterpret events over the last 4 months where Zefr has historically been in a small minority insufficient to claim a consensus in favour of the changes they wished to make. | |||
| *:Also, the idea that I made a {{tq|hostile attempt to revert a legitimate RfC}} is untrue. As I have pointed out above, my actions were in good faith and it can be seen that I immediately volunteered to revert my removal of the template if I received instruction from an admin to that effect. | |||
| *:I cannot see that I was ever canvassed to appear at the Breyers talk page, I arrived there entirely independently back in November having been aware of the ongoing situation re: the various COI edit requests because the COI edit request queue is the volunteer queue that I spend most of my time here working from. I've probably read pretty much every COI edit request that has been made on Misplaced Pages over the last 6 to 12 months and there are a small number of talk pages that I look at from time to time. | |||
| *:Graywalls and I work on similar cases and sometimes we find ourselves working alongside each other, especially if material has been discussed at ], but occasionally ending up in the same place and on the same side of an argument does not entail tagteaming. ] (]) 22:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' I was the one who suggested RfC in the first place. , because I felt it was not a productive disagreement anymore. Leading up to the RfC, there was rough talk page consensus to include a mention pf propylene glycol, but if consensus in RfC determines that it should be left out, I have no intention of fighting it. Someone raised a concern there was only one source, so I added another source. Other than this, I've not really touched contentious parts of this article recently. I'm not sure why Axad12 removed the RfC and I can't speak for their actions, but the accusation of Tagteam is unwarranted. I've taken deferent steps to not continue to engage in back and forth edit warring and I'd like to believe that I'm approaching this the correct way. I do want to bring up concerns about Zefr's civility though. Please see ] for some concerns I raised. I also find leaving snarky comment about being a PhD student who disagreed on contents troubling ]. {{re|Aoidh}} also felt Zefr was "weaponing" claims of edit warring to restore their "preferred version" earlier on in the dispute. Please see ] ] (]) 02:34, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I'll just leave this for less frustrated people to look into. ] (]) 06:18, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *:Graywalls, I think you were correct to recommend an RFC. Hopefully the RFC will reach a consensus. ] (]) 03:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::I'd just like to echo that sentiment. I'm all in favour of consensus. | |||
| *::My position on this article hasn't been motivated by a partisan view on Propylene Glycol but has simply been in relation to serving the consensus position as it stood at the time. That is the approach I hope I adopt on all Misplaced Pages articles. If the consensus alters on this article (as seems likely) then I'll adopt the same approach in relation to serving the ''new'' consensus. | |||
| *::My primary area of interest on this website is COI issues. I'm simply not interested in content disputes or in pushing any kind of POV on Misplaced Pages. I'm not the sort of user who flagrantly disregards a newly emerging consensus by editing contrary to the outcome of an RfC. | |||
| *::I'd welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that going forwards (i.e. without an article ban). ] (]) 06:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::* The mention by Graywalls for an RfC on 27 Dec had no influence on the one existing. As an uncomplicated process, an editor truly sincere in having community input would have posed a simple objective question. Graywalls, why didn't you take 5 minutes and create the RfC question you wanted? What would have been your RfC question? | |||
| *::Specifically for propylene glycol (you are still defending its use in the article by - see comments about this book in the RfC): {{tq|what do you believe propylene glycol does in a frozen dessert and what would you prefer the article to say about propylene glycol? I have asked for this clarification on the talk page many times and in the DRN, but you ignored the opportunity to collaborate and clarify.}} | |||
| *:: | |||
| *::Your reverts in article history and combative talk page behavior over months revealed a persistent intent to disparage the Breyers article, focus on the "antifreeze" slur (mainly promoting ), and restore a skeletal version having no sources more recent than 2018 , after That version also has misinformation under the section 'Ice cream', falsely stating that Breyers changed their ice cream ingredients by using other additives, which in fact, were used to evolve a new category of frozen desserts not intended to be ice cream. I believe you know this, but you and Axad12 persisted to favor misinformation for the article. | |||
| *::The RfC I provided came from steps in the lead of ]: 1) generally poor talk page progress, where one editor seeking facts verified by current sources was opposed by Graywalls, Adax12, and {{u|NutmegCoffeeTea}}, all defending a version including "antifreeze"; 2) an RSN post where Graywalls argued that a web link by the Seattle PI made the Motley Fool article an RS; 3) for which Graywalls, Axad12, and NutmegCoffeeTea abstained from collaboration to improve the article; 4) , which appears to be <u>willfully ignored</u> by Axad12 and Graywalls, who responded only with hostility and defiance against the facts; 5) seeking third opinions from admins, first by BD2412 (talk page on 29-30 Nov) and by , resulting in verbose trolling by these two users. Axad12's response on 27 Dec was to . | |||
| *::Axad12 and Graywalls should be ABANNED from the Breyers article for exhibiting 1) hostility on the talk page to good faith proposals for making the article better, and 2) persistence to perpetuate misinformation on propylene glycol. Simply, what history shows that either editor has tried to improve the Breyers article? Both users meet most of the definitions of ] for the article, its talk page, and the RfC. ] (]) 18:17, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Zefr, I've already indicated on several occasions that I welcome and support the developing new consensus. Graywalls has made a similar comment below. That being the case, I don't really see what purpose an article ban would be intended to serve. | |||
| *:::Admittedly there has been some quite heated disagreement over recent months, but it seems that we all now have the robust talkpage consensus that we were hoping for in one way or another and that all three of us are happy to move forward in support of that consensus. | |||
| *:::You were clearly in the minority for quite a long time and I can appreciate that you found that experience frustrating. However, to continue to make allegations above of bad faith, trolling, tagteaming, etc. about those who constituted the valid majority for several months is just an attempt to perpetuate strife on an issue which is now, as far as I can see, satisfactorily resolved. ] (]) 19:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Filed under: sometimes you hurt articles by treating COI editors as the enemy. The problem here is two users who should really know better edit-warring over the course of ''months'' to reinstate TikTok diet influencer silliness into a Misplaced Pages article, repeatedly reinstating ] content (implicitly, if not explicitly). We currently treat a little "avoid antifreeze" bubble in a diet book (which includes Breyers in a list of brands) and a book published by one of RFK Jr's antivax publishers as ] for including the insinuation that an FDA-approved and much-conspiratorialized additive is harmful. They've been repeatedly removed, but two editors keep putting them back, whether because of a misunderstanding of ]/] or in pursuit of COI purification. — <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 13:24, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:I take your point but I think you're misjudging the situation somewhat. Prior to the opening of the current RfC it was approximately 6 or 7 users in favour of inclusion vs 3 or 4 favouring exclusion. I only reverted the attempts at exclusion because those attempts were contrary to the talk page consensus. | |||
| *:I'm perfectly open to the suggestion that that consensus position was wrong but the simple fact of the matter was that there was ''at that time'' no consensus in favour of exclusion. | |||
| *:It has only been in the last couple of days that the requesting editor has been able to demonstrate a consensus in favour of exclusion. And that's great, I have no problem with that at all. In fact I welcome it. | |||
| *:My understanding is that editors wishing to make changes to article text should not do so if there is a consensus against what they are trying to do, and that under such circumstances an edit can be (indeed ''should be'') reverted. If I'm mistaken on that score then I'm perfectly happy to take instruction. However, I really want to stress that my actions were based primarily upon that reasoning and were made in good faith. ] (]) 14:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::@], you should not revert something because other editors want it to be reverted. You should only make content changes that you personally support. This is necessary for BRD to work. See ] for an explanation of why. ] (]) 17:25, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:{{re|Rhododendrites}}, the antifreeze matter is ] since I believe everyone's pretty much agreed it doesn't need to be in there. Zefr has taken issues with me, Axad12, NutMegCoffee and possibly some others. They've tried to get the article "set in place" to their preferred version, but that was declined admin {{u|Daniel Case}} who determined it to be content dispute ]. Zefr inferring alleging I was <s>"uncooperative"</s> <u>not collaborating/cooperating in the way that he was hoping</u> in DR, but I don't believe that to be so. <u>There was nothing intentional on my part to not cooperate.</u> I'll see if {{re|Robert McClenon}} would like to share their observation on that since they closed the dispute. | |||
| *:https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Breyers/Archive_2#c-Rusalkii-20240814014600-Inkian_Jason-20240801145900 here's another uninvolved editoring erring on the side of inclusion. A one sentence mention of propylene glycol isn't something that is out of line and as others have mentioned, it falls under contents dispute and thus the choice to leave in/out rests on consensus. Reading through the current plus the archived discussions, up until the RfC, the general consensus is in support of having PG mention and Zefr's preferred version shouldn't trump consensus. As I mentioned, if consensus changes with the RfC, I'm not opposed to going with that. ] (]) 17:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC) (adjusted ] (]) 13:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC)) | |||
| *::For the record, I never stated the word "uncooperative" at DRN or the Breyers talk page, but rather "non-collaborative", as discussed in the thread with Robert McClenon below. | |||
| *::"Set in place to their preferred version" and "Zefr's preferred version shouldn't trump consensus" should be translated to using "facts verified by reliable sources", which is the simple goal for the Breyers article that Graywalls has obstructed over months. | |||
| *::It's incredible that Graywalls says even today above, knowing the comments on the RfC and months of being presented with facts and sources about why propylene glycol is safely used in thousands of manufactured foods: ''"A one sentence mention of propylene glycol isn't something that is out of line and as others have mentioned, it falls under contents dispute and thus the choice to leave in/out rests on consensus."'' | |||
| *::Here's your chance to tell everyone: | |||
| *::Why do you feel propylene glycol was used in Breyers frozen desserts (in 2013, not since)? What concern do you have about it, and what government or scientific source says it's unsafe in the amounts regulated by federal laws? Give a sentence here that you think meets consensus and uses a reliable source. ] (]) 01:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::You're right, you did not use that specific word. I've corrected my response due to wording. ] (]) 13:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===A Non-Mediator's Statement=== | |||
| :* I explained twice what I said. You did not read them because you were busy making a ''revenge'' ANI thread. | |||
| I am not entirely sure why ] has pinged me about this dispute, saying that I "closed this dispute". The accuracy of the statement that I "closed this dispute" depends on what is meant by "this dispute". | |||
| :* Yes, so? That draft is not a hoax and I am not allowed to be BOLD when that's been the principle on which you've been acting all the time. | |||
| :* Where are the personal attacks? | |||
| :* I reverted changes to policy because none of them were community-vetted. To prevent people from editing policies on ILIKEIT basis was my intention. | |||
| :* Why not? You're scared or what? | |||
| :* Where have I been incivil? Where's the lack of commonsense? | |||
| : There's nothing to look into, except ofc, your own ANI thread. --<span style="font-family:'Tahoma',Geneva,sans-serif">] <small>(] 📖 ])</small></span> 06:25, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::*I suppose it's too hard, but a kindly admin should take QEDK in hand and try to explain what is helpful and what is not. @QEDK: What do you think about ]? Should passers-by be able to store stuff indefinitely "because it's a draft"? How could ] ever be useful? Why did you edit it four times to remove the CSD tag? Was the tag wrongly applied and you wanted to make sure the paperwork was done correctly? ] (]) 06:36, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{ec|2}}I removed it, added a wrong tag, restored previous, removed it, so 4 times. Yes, I believe all userspace drafts should be indefinitely stored unless and until it violates Misplaced Pages policies like BLP violations or UP#COPIES, drafts are drafts because they are not fit to be articles, there's no reason to remove them. There's nothing to suggest I've done anything which is against policy and if so, do cite such. --<span style="font-family:'Tahoma',Geneva,sans-serif">] <small>(] 📖 ])</small></span> 06:44, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::You have missed the point: no competent editor could think ] is a user space draft—it's obvious junk and needs to be deleted to send the message that ]. Get WP:NOTWEBHOST revoked if you want people to store stuff here. ] (]) 08:54, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::What are you talking about? NOTWEBHOST prevents you from treating Misplaced Pages like your personal blog, memorial or wiki or cloud. That draft is legitimate and contains information about a certain Stephen Reynolds. Please read Misplaced Pages policies ''completely'' before you say something again. --<span style="font-family:'Tahoma',Geneva,sans-serif">] <small>(] 📖 ])</small></span> 11:52, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| I closed the ] thread, ], on 12 December. I obviously didn't resolve a dispute that has been continuing for another three weeks, and the claim that I closed the dispute looks to me like an attempt to confuse the jury. ] had opened the DRN thread on 3 December, complaining about the insertion of the word ] and of the mention of ]. I was not entirely sure beyond the mention of ] what the issues were. There were questions about what the procedure was for handling a ] dispute; I think that Zefr was said to be the one. There was a long question that may have been about whether ] is voluntary; DRN is voluntary. Then Zefr said that the case could be withdrawn because no one else was commenting. The disputants other than Zefr never did say exactly what the article content issues were, perhaps because they didn't want to discuss article content, and were not required to discuss article content. If anyone is implying that I resolved or settled anything, I have no idea what it was. | |||
| :{{edit conflict}} I see nothing in your diffs or in a quick general look at {{noping|QEDK}}'s recent edit history that is disruptive or uncivil. Your accusation that they are not ] (the policy that is invoked by ]) makes them deserving of commendation rather than reprimand.<small>—]<sup>(]</sup><sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">])</sub></small> 06:42, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| I see that the dispute either was continuing in other forums for three weeks, or has reopened. I see that ] edit-warred to prevent an RFC from running, making vague but noisy statements about ]. I don't know who is said to be working for Unilever or for anyone else. It is clear that this dispute is longer on antagonism than on clarity. ] (]) 22:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| "Why isn't "use common sense" an official policy? It doesn't need to be; as a fundamental principle, it is <u>above any policy</u>." ] (]) 06:45, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| : How long are you going to put this charade up? Not to mention, if you really had read the whole thing, it says {{tq|When advancing a position or justifying an action, base your argument on existing agreements, community foundation issues and the interests of the encyclopedia, not your own common sense. }} --<span style="font-family:'Tahoma',Geneva,sans-serif">] <small>(] 📖 ])</small></span> 06:46, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::The {{tl|essay}} disclaimer also covers that it <u>is not</u> "as a fundamental principle, it is <u>above any policy</u>".<small>—]<sup>(]</sup><sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">])</sub></small> 06:50, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :{{re|Robert McClenon}}, I pinged you, because I felt you'd be a good commentator to evaluate whether you also felt I was "not cooperative" in the process as Zefr says. I tried to participate, but it got closed shortly after I posted a comment in it. ] (]) 22:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *A point of correction about bullet point #4 in the opening post of this thread: {{ping|QEDK}} You didn't ask {{no ping|Callanecc}} to protect it, you posted at ] (), correct? If your request was inappropriate, it most likely wouldn't have been granted.<small>—]<sup>(]</sup><sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">])</sub></small> 07:05, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Was that purposely mis-stated to be provocative and mislead the discussion here? | |||
| :: Yes, I did ask at RFPP. --<span style="font-family:'Tahoma',Geneva,sans-serif">] <small>(] 📖 ])</small></span> 07:07, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::I said you were <u>non-collaborative</u>, which describes your behavior throughout your editing history on the Breyers article, its talk page, and the DRN. You refused collaboration at DRN, which is the whole point of the process. DRN FAQ: ''"refusing participation can be perceived as a refusal to collaborate, and is not conducive to consensus-building."'' | |||
| :::I did not mean to say you asked ] directly, he/she just happened to pick up the request. ] (]) 17:09, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::You were notified about the , and you posted a general notice about it on the , so you were aware of the process, but ignored it. Meanwhile, your editing history over 6-12 Dec shows dozens of edits, | |||
| *Baseless. —] 06:08, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::You made no attempt to collaborate at DRN, posting only one off-topic | |||
| ::I requested closure of the DRN on 12 Dec due to non-participation by you and the others. On 13 Dec, . cc: {{u|Robert McClenon}}. ] (]) 00:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{re|Zefr}}, As been said to you by others, participation is not mandatory. Other editors are not required to and you shouldn't reasonably expect them to prioritize their real life schedule or their Misplaced Pages time on dispute that you runs on your own schedule to your DRN you started around your own schedule on your own terms. I have initially waited to give others time to comment as their time allows. I'm also not particularly fond of your berating, incivil, bad faith assuming comments directed at myself, as well as a few other editors and it's exhausting discussing with you, so I'm not feeling particularly compelled to give your matters priority in my Misplaced Pages time. ] (]) 06:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ====A Possibly Requested Detail==== | |||
| Okay. If the question is specifically whether ] was uncooperative at ], then I can state that they were not uncooperative and did not obstruct or disrupt DRN. Graywalls took very little part in the DRN proceeding before I closed it. They were not required to take part, although they say that they would have made a statement if the case had stayed open a little longer. The antagonism that I saw was between ] and ], and I collapsed an exchange between them. I did not read what I am told were long previous discussions, because I expect the disputants at DRN to begin by telling me concisely what each of them wants to change in the article (or what they want to leave the same that another editor wants to change). Graywalls was not uncooperative at DRN. | |||
| ] (]) 00:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Okay. ] is making a slightly different statement, that ] did not ] at DRN. That is correct. And I noted above that their mention that I had closed the dispute depended on what was meant by the "dispute". and looked like an attempt to confuse the jury. ] (]) 03:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::@] Zefr did not use the word uncooperative although did say uncollaborative and I used the two interchangeably in my ping. I did participate in it ]. I haven't participated in DRN until that point, so I wasn't really sure how it worked. ] (]) 13:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===The actual content that led to this dispute=== | |||
| Two month ago, ] included this shockingly bad content: {{tpq|As of 2014, some flavors of Breyer's ice cream contains propylene glycol as an additive. Propylene glycol is a chemical commonly used in a car antifreeze and it is clear fluid made by "treating propylene with chlorinated water to form the chlorohydrin, which is then converted to the glycol, an alcohol, by treating it with a sodium carbonate solution." Propylene glycol is formulated into Breyer's fat-free and Carb Smart ice cream to make it easier to scoop.}} The notion that an article about an ice cream company should include a detailed description of how a ] food additive is manufactured is bizarre enough, as is the cherrypicked and glaringly misleading assertion about "antifreeze", but the reference used to support the Breyers claim was a book called ''Eat It to Beat It!: Banish Belly Fat-and Take Back Your Health-While Eating the Brand-Name Foods You Love!'' written by a quack/crank diet profiteer named David Zinczenko. I invite any editor to take a search engine look at Zinczenko's body of work, and come away with the conclusion that his writings are anything other than fringe and unreliable. Despite the glaringly obviously non-neutral and tendentious problems with this shockingly bad content, editors including most prominently {{u|Graywalls}} and {{u|Axad12}} dug in their heels, fighting a reargard action for nearly two months, determined to make this mundane routine ice cream company look as bad as possible. Their self-justification seems to be that big bad corporations have ''no right whatsover'' to try to remove atrociously bad content about their products from Misplaced Pages, and that any editor who tries to assist the evil corporation is also evil by association. I am not an advocate for corporations ''per se'', but I am an advocate for corporations being treated ] like all other topics, rather with disdain and contempt, which was the case here, as I see it. I do not know what the best outcome is here, but I certainly encourage these two editors to refrain from any other unjustified and poorly referenced anti-corporate diatribes that go on for months on end. ] (]) 07:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :A striking and shocking aspect of this sordid situation is that two editors, {{u|Graywalls}} and {{u|Axad12}} were able to concoct a false "consensus" supporting various versions of this garbage content. And then when another editor tried to start a RFC about the appallingly bad content, {{u|Axad12}} tried over and over and over again to stop the RFC and defend the atrocious content rather than correcting it, aided and abetted by {{u|Graywalls}}. When the RFC actually went live, it soon became clear that many editors agreed that the content these two editors advocated for was utterly inappropriate. ] (]) 08:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Cullen, | |||
| :As per my comments above, my motivation was simply in reflecting the consensus on the talk page at the time. I did not {{tq|concoct}} that consensus, at least 5 users other than me were against excluding the material. | |||
| :I have never had any particularly strong opinion one way or the other on the content issue and I try as best as I can not to get involved in content disputes. I have not {{tq|dug in heels}} or attempted to promote any kind of fringe opinion and nor have I engaged in {{tq|anti-corporate diatribes that go on for months on end}}. | |||
| :Similarly I do not hold the view that {{tq|any editor who tries to assist the evil corporation is also evil by association}}, or any opinion even vaguely resembling that view. On the contrary, I have often implemented COI edit requests on behalf of corporations or have pointed out to corporate employees how such requests would need to be amended to conform with sourcing or other requirements. Repeatedly engaging in that activity would presumably make me very {{tq|evil}} indeed, in my own eyes, if I held the view that you attribute to me. | |||
| :I reverted the Breyer edits in good faith because there was no consensus in favour of them. If I was incorrect on a point of policy in that regard then fair enough, however please do not attempt to attribute to me sentiments which I do not harbour. | |||
| :Also, I did not attempt to stop the RfC {{tq|over and over and over again}}. I removed the tag twice, then requested guidance from administrators and immediately replaced the tag when requested to do so. The tag was removed, in all, for a matter of minutes and had no meaningful impact on the progress of the RfC. I have accepted elsewhere that I now appreciate that the basis on which I removed the tag was inappropriate. I have also stated that {{tq|From my standpoint wasn't a process that I was familiar with - but I can see from the many excellent contributions here that this is the best way of resolving content disputes}}. I have also stated that I welcome and support the new consensus. ] (]) 08:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Try as you will to justify your participation in this debacle , {{u|Axad12}}, but any uninvolved editor can review the edit histories and see that you fought very hard, over and over again for months, to keep garbage content in the encyclopedia just to stick it to a corporation that you obviously dislike because they tried to correct egregious errors about their products. ] (]) 08:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Can you provide a diff there to indicate that I {{tq|obviously dislike}} Breyers or (their parent company) Unilever, or indeed that I consider either to be {{tq|evil}}? | |||
| :::To the best of my recollection, I've only ever made 3 mainspace edits to the Breyers article - each time on the stated basis in the edit summary that the edit I was reverting was contrary to consensus. | |||
| :::I've re-read the extensive talk page discussions in recent days and I can only see that I ever commented on the COI angle and the nature of the consensus. Those comments were based on my understanding of policy at the time. I do not see {{tq|anti-corporate diatribes}} or evidence that I {{tq|obviously dislike}} Breyers or Unilever. | |||
| :::Indeed, I do not hold any particularly strong views on Breyers, Unilever or any other corporations. ] (]) 09:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::As I said, {{u|Axad12}}, all any uninvolved editor needs to do is review your 37 edits to ] to see how determined you have been over the last two months to maintain various versions of this biased non-neutral content, and how enthusiastic you have been in denouncing the various editors who have been calling for neutrality. Your consistent theme has been that a corporation does not deserve neutrality, because a bogus consensus has been conjured up. ] (]) 09:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::My activity on that talk page has solely been in relation to pointing out what I felt (rightly or wrongly) was a valid COI concern and observing that from Aug to Dec there has never been a consensus in favour of exclusion. | |||
| :::::Anything beyond that is simply you attributing motives that do not exist. | |||
| :::::I have never stated or implied that {{tq|a corporation does not deserve neutrality}} and nor do I hold such a view. | |||
| :::::I happily admit that I'm quite animated and enthusiastic about COI issues and reverting edits which appear to be contrary to consensus. With the benefit of hindsight probably I should have let go of those issues at an earlier stage and vacated the field for those who actually had an appetite to argue on content grounds. | |||
| :::::I'd also point out that for a significant part of the last 2 months I had actually unsubscribed from the relevant talkpage threads and only ended up getting involved again due to being summoned to the Dispute Resolution thread. If I had been {{tq|determined over the last two months to maintain various versions of biased non-neutral content}} then hopefully it stands to reason that I would not have unsubscribed in that way - thus resulting in a situation where I was actually completely unaware of much of the talkpage and mainspace activity over the period that you refer to. ] (]) 10:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I find the defense of your actions very weak. You've said several times that your {{tq|motivation was simply in reflecting the consensus on the talk page at the time}}. You are also obligated to ''actually'' look at the disputed content and the sources supporting it. Why didn't you do that? Why were you unable to see what multiple editors in the RfC are commenting about? You shouldn't just blindly revert content like that, without taking a look for yourself to see if the complaint about the disputed content has any merit, like it being reliably sourced and due for inclusion.]] 10:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::That's a very fair question. | |||
| :::::::The answer is that I was inclined to believe the opinions of editors much more experienced than myself who were against exclusion, particularly the editor who turned down the original COI edit request (whose work on COI edit requests I have the greatest of respect for). | |||
| :::::::User Whatamidoing has already pointed out above that my error lay in accepting those users' opinions. I agree with Whatamidoing's observation there. | |||
| :::::::I can only say that what I did was done in good faith based on my understanding of policy at the time. I now know where I erred (in several different ways) and I am glad to have received instruction in that regard. | |||
| :::::::However, I really cannot accept the repeated suggestion that I vindictively masterminded a long anti-corporate campaign to keep bad material in an article. That suggestion is fundamentally not true. ] (]) 10:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Policy at the time, and the policy now, as it always has been, when you make an edit, you are responsible for that edit. So by reverting the content back into the article, you were then responsible for that edit, and also partly to blame for this garbage content being kept in the article when it clearly shouldn't have been.]] 11:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Yes, I entirely accept that. | |||
| :::::::::For clarity, when I said {{tq|my understanding of policy at the time}} I meant ''my understanding of policy'' at the time - I wasn't trying to suggest that the policy has changed since I made those edits. | |||
| :::::::::What I am saying is that those edits were not made with malice, they were made because I accepted the opinions of other users more experienced than myself, opinions which I now know that I ought to have questioned. ] (]) 11:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::You demonstrated poor judgement. Will you stay away from that article? — ] (]) 11:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::As I said earlier in this thread, I am 100% supportive of the new consensus in favour of excluding the previously disputed material. | |||
| :::::::::::Virtually all of my time on Misplaced Pages is spent at COIN and dealing with COI edit requests. I'm not the sort of user who spends their time edit warring over POV fringe material and generally being disruptive. | |||
| :::::::::::So, the last thing I would ever do is attempt to reinstall material where a very robust consensus at RfC has indicated that it should be excluded. | |||
| :::::::::::I would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that I can be trusted in that regard. ] (]) 12:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::Judgement isn't about following consensus, it’s about making considered decisions. — ] (]) 14:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::Yes, quite so. I have acknowledged my error in that regard in my first response to Isaidnoway, above, re: the very useful input I received from Whatamidoing. ] (]) 17:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::Axad, if I read what you wrote correctly, and please correct me if I misunderstand: ''I will stay away from that article because I support the current consensus''. My concern is what if consensus was to shift on that article? ] ] 17:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::Apologies if my earlier response was unclear. My point was that I have absolutely no intention of edit warring over the previously disputed material (or any other material) so I don't see what purpose it would serve to ban me from the article. | |||
| :::::::::::::I have only ever made (to the best of my knowledge) 3 previous edits to the article (1 in November and 2 in December?). These were all on the basis of a misunderstanding on a point of policy which has been pointed out to me above and which I have happily acknowledged and accepted. The issue at stake was not that I harbour any partisan view in relation to the content dispute, it was that I edited to reflect the views of other editors whose opinions I respected on the matter in question. | |||
| :::::::::::::I do not see any reason for the community to anticipate that I would made a similar misunderstanding of policy going forwards. | |||
| :::::::::::::Hopefully this clarifies... ] (]) 17:39, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I've been expecting something to happen around ], whom I ran into several months ago during a ]. What I noticed back in October was that Axad12 seemed to be ''clerking the noticeboard'', making prosecutorial noises, and sometimes unsupported accusations (ex: {{tq|...the existence of COI seems quite clear...}} , {{tq|...in relation to your undeclared conflict of interest...}} , {{tq|As I said, the fact that there was a significant undeclared conflict of interest in relation to editing on Paralympic Australia-related articles was demonstrated some years ago.}} ) towards what they thought of as COI editors (this was about whether ] had failed to adequately announce their conflict with Paralympic Australia, where they've been openly helping as a volunteer on our community's behalf for many years, and after they had just made an ]). I often find such clerking of noticeboards by relatively unseasoned users to be troublesome; Axad12 has 490 edits at COIN, about 12% of their total 3801 edits (but about a third of the roughly 1500 edits total on COIN since September). If you use a hammer all day, you might begin to think that all objects are potentially nails. ] (]) 12:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Rereading the discussion this morning 90 days later, it reads worse than I made it sound above. An uninvolved admin and chastised Axad12 in that close. The OP asked the thread closure be reversed, so the close comments were moved down to the end of the thread. ] (]) 14:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I think it would be a good idea for {{u|Axad12}} to take a break from ] and associated matters and concentrate on other areas of Misplaced Pages for a few months. I was going to use a cliché here, but I see BusterD's already used it in the last sentence of the post before last, so won't. ] (]) 14:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Only so many ways to screw in a lightbulb. ] (]) 15:06, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::In fairness, the overwhelming majority of my posts at COIN over the last year or so have been simple helpful contributions. The two matters discussed above were atypical and in both cases I've taken on board the advice I was given. | |||
| :::::If (per the figures above) I've been making about a third of all the contributions at COIN over that period then my behaviour would have been reported here long ago if I was either disruptive or incompetent. | |||
| :::::That said, I won't deny that I've been seriously considering retiring from Misplaced Pages over the last two months. The only reason I've not done so is because other users have specifically encouraged me to carry on because they value my work at COIN and on COI issues generally. | |||
| :::::All I can say is that what I have done, I have done in good faith and when I have occasionally erred I have learned lessons. I have acknowledged above that I've made mistakes and I'm grateful to those who have given me advice. ] (]) 15:34, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::You've been reported here now. Over stuff that's current, and applicable. In that matter, you seemed to believe your expertise in COI matters allows you to decide what constitutes a valid RFC. That seems like a problem to me. I'm providing evidence on related behavioral matters. Having made one third of all recent edits on a noticeboard ''is not the high achievement you might think it is''. Stay or retire, but learn to better assume good faith here, even when dealing with COI contributors. Most accounts are fine. You've been working in a narrow area where you deal with many bad faith users. I can understand why that might wear on any editor. The proof will be if you can incorporate these valid complaints into your future action. ] (]) 16:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Buster, I know that we've had crossed words in the past so I'm grateful for your understanding and your measured response above. Yes, I deal with many bad faith users and yes it does wear on me sometimes. | |||
| :::::::I don't claim any great expertise in COI matters but I do have the time to dedicate to the project and I've picked up a decent awareness of the methods that can be used to detect and prevent UPE/PROMO etc activity. | |||
| :::::::I believe that in the past when I've been given advice on points of policy I've taken that advice on board and would hope to continue to do so in the future. ] (]) 17:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::This comment is not about you, but you might be interested in it: I've been thinking for years that a rotating duty system might be helpful. Of course we're all ], but we might be less stressed, and get more representative results, if we each spent a week at ANI and a month at RSN and a week at CCI each year than if one editor spends all year at ANI and another spends all year at RSN (and nobody is at CCI – anyone who is looking for an opportunity to deal with really serious problems should please consider spending some time at ]. The few regulars there will be so grateful, and who knows? You might find that you like it). ] (]) 18:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::]? ] (]) 20:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I do think that it's worth zooming out and looking at the article as a whole. Comparing the version from to the makes it obvious that the tone of the article has become vastly more promotional, with much more focus on glowy feel-good aspects that are only mentioned in lower-quality sources (the story about the original creator hand-churning it?) And the ''context'' of the additive section has changed from emphasizing that it was cost-cutting (well-supported in the sources) to the weird {{tq|In 2013, Breyers introduced frozen desserts made with food additives (section above) that were intended to create smooth, low-calorie products. However, the new desserts evoked complaints by some consumers who were accustomed to the traditional "all-natural" Breyers ice cream.}}, which 100% reads like marketing-speak (downplaying the reaction by making it sound like it's just that people loved the old version ''so much''. In fact, the current version doesn't mention Breyer's cost-cutting measures at all, even though it's a massive aspect of coverage.) That doesn't necessarily justify the version above, but it's important to remember that this was originally a one-word mention in a larger list - {{tq|Following similar practices by several of their competitors, Breyers' list of ingredients has expanded to include thickeners, low-cost sweeteners, food coloring and low-cost additives — including natural additives such as tara gum and carob bean gum; artificial additives such as maltodextrin and propylene glycol; and common artificially separated and extracted ingredients such as corn syrup, whey, and others}}, the longstanding wording, is not unreasonable and doesn't really imply that there's anything particularly dangerous about propylene glycol, just that it's an additive. I think the context of that larger shift to a much more promotional tone to the article is significant (and looking over talk, most of the actual dispute has focused on that.) --] (]) 17:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:I agree that the longstanding wording doesn't really imply there's anything particularly dangerous about propylene glycol. But the doesn't even mention "maltodextrin and propylene glycol", that I can find, so those two particular additives were not even verifiable at the time. And then propylene glycol was removed, and when it was as "a chemical commonly used in a car antifreeze", was really when this dispute seem to take a turn for the worse to keep this content in the article.]] 18:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::@], about this {{xt|And the context of the additive section has changed from emphasizing that it was cost-cutting (well-supported in the sources)}} – I don't know what other sources say, but the ''cited'' sources don't say that at all. The cited sources are both from Canadian dairy farmers' marketing associations, saying that their product is good and costs more than imported oils, but doesn't actually ] a claim that Breyers uses imported oils, or that Breyers has done anything to cut their costs. ] (]) 18:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::(As this is strictly a question of content, please consider replying at ] instead of here.) ] (]) 18:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::{{re|Aquillion|WhatamIdoing|Isaidnoway}} would you all mind if I copy over the thread, starting at Aquillion's "I do think that...." over to Breyer's talk? ] (]) 02:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::I don't mind, but my contribution to this thread is relatively minor. ] (]) 02:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ====Thanks, and a Diddly Question==== | |||
| I would like to thank ] for providing the background and content information. I also have a possibly minor question for ]. They edit-warred to try to stop the RFC on the content, and said that there was an {{tq|exceptionally serious abuse}} of the ] process. I may not have done enough background research, but I don't see where they have identified who has been the paid editor or undisclosed paid editor, or what the ] content is. If there has been paid editing, who has done it, and have they been dealt with? ] (]) 17:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Robert, probably the best single overview of the COI issue is given in this post . | |||
| *I agree that some of this seems like a full-scale vendetta of QEDK and Godsy against Legacypac. Perhaps it's QEDK and Godsy that need a MfD topic ban. ] (]) 02:35, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :My impression at the time of the events, and subsequently, was that the activity was designed to distort the COI edit request process. I still feel that what happened re: the COI edit requests was irregular but I note that no other user seems to have supported me in that regard so I've not taken the matter any further. Similarly, while I felt that those events had a bearing on the RfC I now accept that the RfC relates solely to the content matter specifically under discussion. ] (]) 18:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I find your characterization of events inaccurate. "we have the resubmission of the request to remove the disputed material in a COI edit request thread here " | |||
| ::But this was not a resubmission. was to remove a list of ingredients (including propylene glycol) which was sourced to a blog and which the COI editor says is outdated and doesn't reflect current ingredients. Meanwhile, the link you give as an example of "resubmission" was the COI editor requesting the removal of . Both requests involve propylene glycol, but they are clearly separate requests concerning separate content. | |||
| ::We want COI editors to propose changes to talk pages. The fact that this COI editor, apparently frustrated by a lack of responses to their requests went to the to request someone look at their edits, and then went to an active participant of said Wikiproject and requested they look at their requests, is not suspicious or abnormal. And I think it's highly inappropriate how Axad12 argued at length on the talk page that User:Zefr was "cultivated" by the COI editor "to do their bidding". I support other editors in recommending Axad12 take a break from COI issues. ] (]) 00:12, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I'd just like to stress here that I only linked to my post above because Robert McClenon asked for the background to the COI element. I was not trying to re-open that issue or to request that any action be taken on that issue. I have already accepted that there is absolutely no support for the position I adopted there. ] (]) 04:00, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::This doesn't answer my question. The link is to a conversation between ], ], and administrator ]. The links from that conversation show that there is antagonism between Axad12 and Graywalls on the one hand and ] on the other hand. They show that there is discussion of ], but they show no direct evidence of ] editing by any editor. They don't answer who is said to be a paid editor making edit requests, aside from the fact that paid editors are supposed to make edit requests rather than editing directly, so I am still not sure what the issue is. I haven't seen any evidence of abuse, let alone of {{tq|exceptionally serious abuse}} that warranted edit-warring to prevent an RFC. ] (]) 05:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The paid editor is ] who is open and transparent about their COI. The edit request which began this episode was when Inkian Jason ] where they pinged ] about having uploaded a photo of the company's logo and asking if they would be willing to add it to the article. Secondary to that they also asked about the appropriateness of the recently added propylene glycol content. The COI issues centered around whether Inkian Jason "cultivated" Zefr by pinging him to remove the added propylene glycol text after they had ] about the various ingredients used in the ice cream (which included propylene glycol). ] (]) 05:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Proposal 2: Article Ban of Axad12 from Breyers=== | |||
| == Legal threat in edit summary? == | |||
| {{atop|status=Not Implemented|1=Axax12 has voluntarily agreed to avoid editing ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:20, 11 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| ] <sup>''''']'''''</sup> 12:24, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| (Proposal 1 has been lost up in the early postings.) I propose that ] be ] from ] and ] for six months. ] (]) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :The guy should be blocked for the legal threat, but his claim should also be investigated, especially if it's a BLP issue. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 12:27, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' as proposer. ] (]) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Cheers {{U|Baseball_Bugs}}, I think I know 'who' the IP is. But obviously cannot say. ] <sup>''''']'''''</sup> 12:31, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *:Robert, I believe I have acknowledged and accepted my various errors in some detail above. I would be grateful for the opportunity to take on board and apply the very valuable input I have received from various more experienced users over the course of this thread. I'd therefore suggest a counter-proposal, that I will voluntary undertake not to edit the Breyers article or make any contribution at the talk page, not just for the next 6 months but forever. I will also refrain from any interaction with Zefr and refrain from making any future comment on the matters under discussion in this thread (once this thread is complete). In addition, if I go back on any of those voluntary undertakings I would be happy for it to be upon pain of an indefinite site ban. ] (]) 04:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::Axad12, I wonder what your intent is with your counterproposal. Robert McClenon has proposed an article ban for 6 months. Your counterproposal is, in effect, an indefinite ], an ] with Zefr, and a ] on the topic of propylene glycol in Byers, all without the usual escalating blocks for violations, instead jumping straight to an indef. While this would solve the issue, it's much more draconian. What's your reasoning for requesting harsher restrictions? ] (]) 04:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::The purpose of the counter proposal was simply to indicate that I have only good intentions going forwards and I am happy to demonstrate those intentions upon pain of the strongest possible sanction. Evidently I wouldn't have made the counter proposal if I wasn't serious about the undertaking, as I'm aware that eyes will understandably be upon me going forwards. | |||
| *:::As I've said before, I'm a good faith user and I'm amenable to taking instruction when I have erred. I would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that without being subject to a formal ban. ] (]) 05:02, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::I fail to see a distinction between what you proposed and a formal ban. Your proposal is on {{tq|q=y|pain of an indefinite site ban}}. "A rose by any other name" comes to mind here. Your voluntary adherence to the terms of the proposal would be indistinguishable from being compelled into adherence by threat of an indef. If you still want this course of action, fair enough, I just don't think it'll do what you're envisioning. ] (]) 05:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::I really don't recommend that, Axad. Sure, take a break from that article if you want to. But it's really easy to forget about a dispute years later, or even for a company to change names and suddenly you're on that article without knowing it. ] (]) 04:53, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::For clarification, I would be happy to undertake voluntarily any measures that the community may suggest and upon pain of any sanction that the community may suggest. I believe that there is value to undertaking such measures voluntarily because it allows one to demonstrate that one can be trusted. | |||
| *:::Also just a brief note to say that in about an hour and a quarter's time I will have no internet access for the next 12-14 hours. Any lack of response during that period will simply be for that reason and not due to a wilful refusal to communicate. Hopefully I have indicated above that I have been happy to respond to all questions. | |||
| *:::No doubt matters will progress in my absence and I will find out my fate upon my return. ] (]) 05:18, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support''' as less stringent than what Axad has proposed above within this section, but still prevents further disruption. ] (]) 06:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ] is a hatchet job to all intents and purposes for a different Bob Lambert. The Ballyseedy IRA "Bob Lambert" is not well-sourced - it appears to be from a 2008 book by ]. ] (]) 13:50, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' because {{u|Axad12}} seems to have taken on board the criticism (much of which came from me) and we don't need to be vindictive. ] (]) 08:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Absolutely, {{u|Collect}}. I was not referring to the honey-trap guy. The IP has effectively ] himself though. Has the IP been blocked yet? I wouldn't call the Cottrell work a particularly ]- it's a short guide rather than based on research.] <sup>''''']'''''</sup> 14:18, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. This episode has largely been a series of poor judgements by Axad12 perhaps coloured by their enthusiasm for COI matters but feedback has been given and acknowledged. I also oppose Axad12's counter proposal. --] (]) 10:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Given Cullen328's comment. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 13:25, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' per above. I just don't see a need for such strict measures. ] (]) 16:22, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' the formal sanction, but I do support Axad12s voluntary sanction = {{tq|I will voluntary undertake not to edit the Breyers article or make any contribution at the talk page, not just for the next 6 months but forever. I will also refrain from any interaction with Zefr ... I wouldn't have made the counter proposal if I wasn't serious about the undertaking}}.]] 22:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| ===Proposal 3: Article Ban of Axad12 from COIN=== | |||
| ::I have blocked the IP for attempting intimidation through legal threats. That being done, it may be worth looking into their concerns to make sure our content regarding that person is well sourced or removed. ] 14:20, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|status=Not Implemented|1=Axad12 seems to have agreed to step back from COIN, and there isn't consensus for this. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:19, 11 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| :::Thanks {{u|HighInBC}}, as above, I would suggest removing it until we have a better source than Cottrell. ] <sup>''''']'''''</sup> 14:22, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Clerking at COIN seems to have given ] the idea that everyone whom they don't know is probably a paid editor, and something has given them the idea that they can identify "exceptionally serious abuse" without providing direct evidence. I propose that ] be ] from ] for two months. ] (]) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' as proposer. ] (]) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:Robert, just a brief note to say that I do not believe that {{tq|everyone whom don't know is probably a paid editor}}. The overwhelming majority of my contributions at COIN are simple constructive contributions and the matter described above is highly atypical. ] (]) 04:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' because {{u|Axad12}} seems to have taken on board the criticism (much of which came from me) and we don't need to be vindictive. ] (]) 08:44, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. This episode has largely been a series of poor judgements by Axad12 perhaps coloured by their enthusiasm for COI matters but feedback has been given and acknowledged. --] (]) 10:12, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Given Cullen328's comment. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 13:25, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I would prefer it if Axad12's voluntary commitment was to stay away from ] rather than the company article in particular. It is very unhealthy, both for Misplaced Pages and for the particular user, for anything like a third of the edits on any noticeboard to be from any one user. ] (]) 15:18, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' this is a good idea, and not vindictive. It will do Axad12 some good to get away from the COIN for awhile, and get out there and roam around Misplaced Pages and see where else they can contribute constructively.]] 16:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:I think a formal ban is unnecessary. Axad has done a remarkably good job of articulating a positive response to this incident, and it's to his credit that he has reacted so constructively under such pressure. | |||
| *:I also think it's good for everyone to try something different on occasion. I think it's easier to walk away for a bit if you're sure that others will step up to fill your place. So with such proposals (not just this one), I'd love to see people saying not only that they support giving someone a break, but also that they'll try to step up to help out in that page/process/noticeboard for the length of a ban. It could be as little as checking in once a week or answering the easy questions. Who is willing to actually be supportive in practice? ] (]) 20:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::People will fill the space. WP:COIN managed before Axad12 showed up, and will manage if they stop editing there. Nobody is indispensible. ] (]) 20:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::It's only for two months, it's a good thing to get away and get a breath of fresh air, and yes, his response has been positive, but even he admits in the Breyer debacle, he was relying on other editor's opinions in evaluating the disputed content, so getting away from the COIN desk for a couple of months, and getting some experience in other areas of the encyclopedia will be beneficial, if and when, he returns to COIN.]] 22:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I don’t want to derail the voting process here, but a couple of points in relation to COIN… | |||
| *:::(Apologies for the length of this post but I feel the contents are relevant.) | |||
| *:::1) It has been observed elsewhere that “COIN has no teeth” (forgive me for the absence of a diff but I think it's a commonly acknowledged idea). I've discussed that issue at some length with ] and they've acknowledged that there is (in their opinion) insufficient admin oversight at COIN and that too many threads have historically gone unresolved without action being taken against promo-only accounts (etc). | |||
| *:::Star Mississippi has encouraged me to refer such cases to admins directly to ask them to intervene. I’ve been doing so over recent months and this has significantly improved positive resolutions on COIN threads. | |||
| *:::If I’m not active at COIN then that won’t be happening and very little action will be being taken against the promo only accounts reported there. Thus, while I acknowledge Whatamidoing’s earlier point about cross-training etc, and the points made by other users, there is an underlying unresolved issue re: admin oversight at COIN, which might also be resolved via some kind of rota or by a greater number of admins looking in from time to time. | |||
| *:::I’ve not consciously been clerking, and I certainly don’t aspire to be “the co-ordinator of COIN”, but there is something of a vacuum there. Consequently I’ve often posted along the lines of “Maybe refer this to RPPI?”, “Is there a notability issue here?”, etc. etc. in response to threads that have been opened. | |||
| *:::I absolutely accept 100% that, in terms of experience, I’m probably not the best person to be doing that – but I have the time to do it and I have the inclination, and in the absence of anybody else serving that role I’ve been happy to do it. But, as I say, really this is an underlying unresolved issue of others ''not'' having the time or inclination rather than an issue of me going out of my way to dominate. What I'd really like is if there were others sharing that task. | |||
| *:::2) Also I'm not really sure that the extent to which I perform that sort of role has any real link to me making assumptions about whether COI users have good or bad faith motivations. On the latter distinction I think it's fair to say that I'm usually (but admittedly not always) correct. There have also been occasions when others have been asking for action to be taken and I've been the voice who said "no, I think this is a good faith user who just needs some guidance on policy". I hope that I'm normally speaking fair in that regard. | |||
| *:::Most of the accounts who are taken to COIN are recent accounts who wrongly believe that Misplaced Pages is an extension of their social media. Most accounts who fall into that category are advised along those lines and they comply with policy or, sometimes, they just go away. Then there are the repeat customers who are often clearly operating in bad faith and where firmer action needs to be taken. I'm conscious of that distinction, which seems to me to be the single most important point when dealing with COIN cases. I've not been adopting some kind of hardline one-size-fits-all approach or characterising all COI activity as bad per se. However, more admin oversight at COIN would certainly be appreciated, if only so that there were a wider range of voices. | |||
| *:::Thus, in an ideal world I think I would continue to be allowed to operate at COIN, but as one of several regular contributors. | |||
| *:::Apologies for the length of this post but hopefully this is a useful and relevant contribution. Please feel free to hat this post if it is considered wildly off-topic. ] (]) 03:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::This comment just reinforces my support position that a two-month break is a good idea.]] 04:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::], all I can say is that if Misplaced Pages is looking for people with the time and motivation to dedicate to the project, and who are amenable to taking instruction, then here I am. | |||
| *:::::If I’ve been felt to be overly keen to contribute in a particular area then fair enough. I’m just not sure that a formal ban is the way to go about resolving that. ] (]) 05:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::Good grief, it's only two months, not a lifetime, I've taken breaks form the project longer than that, and guess what, the place didn't fall apart, and neither will COIN if you take a small break, formally or voluntarily. You claim - {{tq|If I’m not active at COIN then that won’t be happening and very little action will be being taken against the promo only accounts reported there.}} I just don't believe that to be true, because as Phil Bridger points out - ''WP:COIN managed before Axad12 showed up, and will manage if they stop editing there. Nobody is indispensable''.]] 06:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::I really don't wish to argue, you've expressed your view and that's fine. However, the point of my long post above wasn't that "I am critical to COIN". The post was simply intended to highlight the fact that there are very few regular contributors at COIN and to express a hope that a wider range of contributors might get involved (following on from earlier related comments by Whatamidoing). That would be healthy all round, regardless of my situation. | |||
| *:::::::Also, when I've seen similar situations arise in the past, good faith (but over-active) users seem to usually be given the opportunity to voluntarily take steps to allay any community concerns, rather than being handed a formal ban. I'd just be grateful for a similar opportunity. ] (]) 06:43, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::Apologies for the delay. I cannot provide a diff either as I can't recall where we had the conversation but acknowledging that what @] attributed to me is correct. There are simple blocks that are sometimes needed, but there aren't as many eyes on COIN to action them. I believe I've found merit to any Axad reported directly to me and if there were any I didn't take action, it was due to bandwidth as my on wiki time has been somewhat limited over the last six months. As for the merit of this report, I am not able to read through it to assess the issue so it would not be fair of me to weigh in on any element thereof. ] ] 14:48, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' I have read through this long, entire discussion. I'd just like to point out to Axad12 that, to me, it's kind of like you are saying what you think we want to hear so it's hard to know how reflective this incident has caused you to be. I think it would be a mistake for you to think you only made mistakes regarding this one article and instead reconsider your approach to the entire COI area. Sometimes "the consensus" is not correct and can violate higher principles like NPOV and V. | |||
| :I'll just mention that the COI area has caused us to lose some invaluable editors, just superb and masterful editors who were on their way to becoming administrators. They devoted incredible amounts of time to this project. But their interest in rooting out COI and pursuing UPE caused them to completely lose perspective and think that they were a one-man/woman army and they took irresponsible shortcuts that led them to either leave the project voluntarily or be indefinitely blocked. It's like they fell down a rabbit hole where they began to think that the rules didn't apply to them because they had a "higher calling" of getting rid of COI. This lack of perspective caused us to lose some amazing editors, unfortunately, but ultimately they were damaging the project. | |||
| :You seem like an enthusiastic editor and I'd rather not see the same thing happen to you so I recommend you cut back on your time "clerking" COIN and just make this task one of a variety of areas you edit in instead of your primary activity. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 08:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Liz, thank you for your comments. I welcome your perspective and I'm not unaware of the dangers that you highlight. | |||
| ::I think this is now day 5 of what has been a rather gruelling examination where I’ve co-operated to the very best of my ability. Most of the material under discussion has related to a series of regrettable misunderstandings where I’ve openly acknowledged my errors and would now like to move on. | |||
| ::Therefore I’d be grateful if, following a period of reflection, I be given the latitude to continue my activities as I think best, taking on board ''all'' the very helpful advice that I’ve received from multiple users. At this moment in time I'm not sure exactly what that will look like going forwards, but it will involve a very significant (perhaps complete) reduction in my concentration on COI issues and much more time spent on improving articles in non-COI areas where I've previously contributed productively (e.g. detailed articles on specific chess openings). | |||
| ::If I subsequently fall short of community expectations then by all means bring me back here with a view to imposing extreme sanctions. I do not think that that will end up being necessary. | |||
| ::I have only the best of intentions but I must admit that I'm finding this prolonged process psychologically wearing. I therefore wondered if we might bring matters to a swift conclusion. | |||
| ::I am genuinely very grateful for the thoughts of all who have contributed above. | |||
| ::Kind regards, ] (]) 08:27, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Hey, all: This thread's over 100 comments now. Can we please stop now? ] (]) 08:59, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Seconding. Axad seems to have agreed to step back from COI-related editing for a while, all discussions are trending strongly towards no formal sanctions - could this be closed? ] (]) 06:50, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Oppose'''. Sanctions are intended to be preventive, not punitive. At times Axad12 can get too aggressive, and removing the RfC template was one of that. Other issues were also raised but unless these issues continues, formal sanctions are unlikely necessary. ] (]) 17:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Oppose''' I haven't gone through the entire saga on the Breyers page, but for a while I was active in COI edit requests at the same time Axad12 was, and noticed their conistently very combatitive/aggressive approach towards any editor with a declared or suspected COI. I mentioned this to them and they said they had already stepped back from answering COI edit requests because of this, which I though at the time (and still do) showed a genuinely impressive amount of self-awareness. I rather burned out on the edit requests and came back a few months later to see the queue vastly decreased thanks in part ot Axad12's efforts, but also what seemed to me like very little improvement, if any, to the way they approach COI editors. I would regret to see Axad12 banned from this topic area, but I would like to see them approach it with somewhat more kindness. I would (regretfully) support sanctions if this kind of behaviour continued, but there's no need to jump to that now. ] (]) 03:33, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Just a note to acknowledge the essential truth of ]'s description above of my activities. There have, however, also been examples where I've shown considerable kindness and patience to COI editors and assisted them in re-formulating requests in a way that conforms with the relevant policies. | |||
| ::I've always seen activities at ] and activities dealing with COI edit requests as two rather different things (with the former involving primarily undeclared COI, and the latter involving declared COI). With the benefit of hindsight I accept that my exposure to the former probably coloured my approach to the latter in an unhelpful way and that being heavily active in both spheres simultaneously was not a good idea. | |||
| ::I would happily undertake never to deal with a COI edit request ever again and I have no particular desire to continue my activities at COIN either. The extent to which it was unhealthy to be operating in both areas is thus now effectively a moot point but I acknowledge that it was a factor in the matters under discussion here. ] (]) 05:54, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == MAB Teahouse talk == | |||
| '''Is there any wonder so many people think Misplaced Pages is run by idiots?''' As Jimbo Wales said, ''The policy is a good policy, overall, but there is a very unfortunate sequence of events that happens far too often. A BLP attack victim sees something horrible in Misplaced Pages, and I think we can all acknowledge that they have no moral responsibility to become Wikipedians to fix it. Some of them react in ways that we, as Wikipedians who favor reasoned discourse over threats, find inappropriate. Sure, and why not? They are being unfairly attacked and they are hurt and angry and they have no idea what our rules are. That's not their fault. Banning them on the spot for a legal threat is not a very helpful response, usually.''<ref>], to ], 9 September 2008</ref>}} | |||
| I didn't want to, but I one-hour protected the talk page of the Teahouse due to MAB going there. The Teahouse itself is already protected. Obviously they're going there precisely to make things as difficult on us as possible, but I don't know what else to do. ] (]) 09:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| The difference here, which isn't terribly important right now, is that the highly offensive, unsourced, and apparently quite dubious content dealt with a deceased family member rather than a living person. Nobody reached out to the IP to address their very legitimate concerns. This is not the behavior of genuinely reasonable, sensible people. ] (]) 16:07, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :Would it be possible to create a link (or button) that creates a new section on one's own talk page with {{tl|Help me}} preloaded? We could then add this to the page's editnotice. ] (]) 09:53, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :(ec)Did you even notice the part where we took their complaint seriously? I am not sure if Jimbo has attempted to find a consensus to change our no legal threats policy, but as the policy stands we need to block people who have active threats of legal action. | |||
| ::I protected ] for an hour and found that there is a notice that pops up giving advice on how to get assistance on the user's talk page. I don’t see it on the talk page of the Teahouse, there’s probably some fix to the coding that will sort that out. — ] (]) 12:22, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::OK, I've fixed that. — ] (]) 12:35, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Looks like today they're hitting every help page they can find. ] (]) 09:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::<small>In relation to "MAB" issues, is it just me, or is anyone else reminded of when the notoriously difficult Queen Mab speech was pretty much hit out of park in 1997's ]? ] (]) 🦘 12:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC)</small> | |||
| ::::::<small>I think it's just you. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 06:21, 9 January 2025 (UTC)</small> | |||
| == Kosem Sultan - warring edit == | |||
| :We are not lawyers and we cannot respond to legal threats in a competent way. We block the person with an explanation as to why, we let them know that if they retract the threat the block can be reversed. And we look into the complaint to see if it is valid. I think you are not seeing the whole situation here. ] 16:12, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Hello, I am terribly sorry if I write this in wrong place, but I really don't know what place would be best to report this. | |||
| {{Reflist-talk}} | |||
| I was editing page of ] and I noticed this user: 109.228.104.136 changed phrase in infobox "spouse: Ahmed I" into "consort of: Ahmed I", claiming 'they were never married'. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=K%C3%B6sem_Sultan&oldid=1263148667 | |||
| ::Did you even notice what I actually wrote? I posted that '''''Nobody reached out to the IP''' to address their very legitimate concerns''. It's evident from their talk page that that statement is 100% accurate. The boilerplate language posted to the IP's talk page gives no sign whatever that their concerns are being taken seriously. The OP here violated policy by not providing the IP with the mandatory notice of / link to this discussion. This episode is just another FUBAR situation caused by inbred Misplaced Pages editors being more concerned with the selectively chosen rules of the game here than with matters of genuine substance. It's an embarassment. ] (]) 16:30, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Calling people inbred - really? ]] 10:26, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Why are we still having this discussion? The IP has been blocked for legal threats. Close the thread.--] (]) 21:22, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Clearly, the behavior of other editors is being discussed as well. The thread should not be closed yet. -- ] (]) 21:25, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| {{ping|Hullaballoo Wolfowitz}} yes I read what your wrote, did you write what you meant me to read? I did "reach out" to the IP in that I left a notice explaining our position on legal threats. We did look into their concerns and address them. Perhaps you could better communicate what it is you think we should have said to the IP, or better yet say it to the IP yourself then teach us by example. As it is you are very poorly communicating what your actual concerns are. ] 00:47, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Because of this, I added information they were married and sourced this with book. However, this person keep revert to their preffered version of infobox. I asked them on Talk page about providing source. When I pointed that their source not disputes or even misinnterprets mine, they deleted my talk. They did this twice and even claimed I 'vandalized' Kosem's page. | |||
| ===A friendly chat re how best to handle legalistic footstomping=== | |||
| *Frankly, I never bought the received wisdom that we must block legal threat-eners on sight, particularly where the threat isn't directed specifically at other editors, which is usually the sign of an actual attempt to "chill". So what if someone says "Fix this or I'll sue!"? The Foundation knows how to take care of itself; if we're following our own rules there's nothing to worry about; and (most importantly) blocking likely doesn't reduce the chance of actual legal action but rather increases it, by cutting off the channels by which we can explain how things work, and making it look like we don't give a shit about possibly meritorious complaints. | |||
| :So why ''do'' we block for legal foot-stomping, instead of just ignoring the threat and engaging the complaint, at least as long as the person seems to be listening? If they won't engage and just keep making threats (especially, as I say, against other editors) ''then'' block as with any other persistently unconstructive behavior. ''']]''' 00:55, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| As inexperienced user I was few times into edit warring, as I did not know how exactly rules are there.I try to be careful now to not make disruptions and while there is instruction to undo undsourced informations, I am not sure if I am allowed to undo their - unsourced - edition, as I already did this few times. I would not label changing 'spouse' for 'consort of' as vandalism per say, but I want to protect my edition and I wish this person provided source so we could each consensus. You can see our - now deleted by them - discussion here: | |||
| ::One of the big reasons is that any form of intimidation has a chilling effect that damages our ]. If someone can say "The article should be like this or bad things will happen" that creates a very strong bias. Our ] policy is of course open to discussion and if consensus is found even change. ] 01:01, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:109.228.104.136&diff=prev&oldid=1267744138#Kosem_Sultan_was_wife_of_Ahmed_I. | |||
| :::Duh, thanks for recapitulating what we all know is the logic of NLT. The questions (I guess I'll have to say again) are: whether a vague legalistic threat is, in fact, intimidating (which is different from whether it's ''meant'' to be intimidating); and (whatever the answer to that) whether instablocking is, in fact, the most useful way to respond. Since almost all "legal threats" come from very new editors, the idea that such blocks act as a warning <u>to others</u> ''<small></small>'' doesn't hold much water. ''']]''' 03:00, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| 2) | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:109.228.104.136&diff=prev&oldid=1267749540#Kosem_was_wife_of_Ahmed | |||
| (I do not know if I linked this correctly, but both shound be find in history of talk page of user with today date) | |||
| I hope it can be seen I was willing to discuss things and I even proposed to merge ours versions, if only this person provide scholar source - which they didn't, as Tik Tok video they linked contardicts statement from my book (see details in discussions). | |||
| ::::Thanks for the attitude. I am enforcing the NLT policy as it is written, if you want that changed then seek consensus for that change and I will follow that instead. ] 03:30, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| I also want to add that blocked user called Cecac https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:K%C3%B6sem_Sultan#Marriage | |||
| :::::You're welcome. I didn't question whether you were enforcing policy as written. The question was raised above whether our policy re/treatment of LTs is wise, at least one other editor seemed interested in kicking that around, and I joined in. There's no need for you to explain to experienced editors that the way to get policy changed is to seek consensus, that you as an admin would abide by such change, and other bits of obviousness. ''']]''' 03:53, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| used exactly the same argument, as historian in Tik Tok provided by 109.228.104.136. I do not know if 109.228.104.136 and Cecac are the same person, but I think it should be checked. | |||
| Finally, I do not know how much video made on Tik Tok should be considered as reliable source, so I am not sure how to act in this situation. | |||
| Again I apologize if I leave this message in wrong board - there were multiple issues so I decided to list them all. Please notify me if I am allowed edit Kosem's page and brought back informations, as I really want avoid going back-and-forth and do not want to be blocked myself. --] (]) 14:45, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::The talk page of the policy would be a good place to have a discussion about that. If what I was saying was really obvious then you would be talking about it there. ] 04:07, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Your logic is faulty, because discussants at ANI often kick an idea around in the context of a particular incident before making a formal proposal elsewhere -- though the literal-minded, and those who like everything bureaucratically pigeonholed, may find that bothersome. Perhaps you just let those who wish to discuss, discuss, without further metadefending your need to defend your earlier defense of an administrative action that I didn't question? ''']]''' 04:25, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| {{od|:::::::}} | |||
| Legal threats cannot be tolerated. The user can sue Misplaced Pages, or he can edit Misplaced Pages, but he can't do both. If an editor recants and disavows his legal threat, then an unblock can be considered. If he doesn't, then he stays blocked. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 04:31, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :You too are just repeating what we all know to be the current policies/practices, and chanting ]. Anyway, someone who says, "I'm so mad, if this isn't fixed I might sue WP!" hasn't sued anyone yet, and I'm trying to raise the question of whether those policies/practices best keep that from happening, and best get any errors corrected. Based on the straw-poll so far, however, it appears that for the moment the ground is not fertile for a reexamination of such questions. ''']]''' 05:05, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :I want to add that I informed user 109.228.104.136 about this reprt, however they delete this from their Talk page. ] (]) 23:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::My position is that it is not just the current policy, but that it is a good idea and a good practice. I am not just repeating the policy, I am defending it. I can't speak for Bugs but I suspect they are not just repeating something they heard, but rather expressing an opinion. I think you are belittling both of us by suggesting our defence of the policy are just "appealing-sounding syllogisms". I would love to continue this discussion on the talk page of the NLT policy, if you have any concrete proposals on how to improve things. ] 05:11, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::I will point out that consort is generally considered synonymous with the word spouse. Elizabeth I's mother, for example was officially the "queen consort" of the united kingdom. ] (]) 19:32, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::My original post asked whether the time-honored NLT arguments really are valid (for example, "blocking likely doesn't reduce the chance of actual legal action but rather increases it, by cutting off the channels by which we can explain how things work, and making it look like we don't give a shit about possibly meritorious complaints") but neither of you even acknowledged that question. Like I said, this doesn't seem like the time to shout into the wind. One thought for the future, however, is that someone should ask Foundation legal what they think about all this. Businesses often receive threats of suit, but they don't simply hang up the phone when that happens. (And yes, I realize WP isn't a business, but the point remains.) ''']]''' 05:30, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yes, indeed, but in this person's inention was to make Kosem be perceived as not wife, but concubine. While I do agree that all wife of monarch is also his consort, this person meant 'concubine' and I was afraid they gonna delete also other parts, when I was reffering to Kosem as sultan's wife, hence I inetrvened. English for some reason reffer to all sulatns partners as 'consorts' regardless if they are married or not, that's why it's important to highlight when consort was actually wife, like in Kosem's case. ] (]) 15:29, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Actually I did answer your question by suggesting that our NLT policy was about avoiding intimidation in Wiki. The block is not for the benefit of the person blocked, and it is not an attempt to prevent law suits. It is taking legal matters off of Misplaced Pages because nobody here is qualified to deal with these matters. You responded with "Duh" and then acted like nobody was listening to you. You might not have liked the answer to your question but you got an answer. ] 05:48, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Precisely. If someone makes extra-Misplaced Pages threats, be they legal or physical, they have forfeited their editing privileges. There is no constitutional right to edit Misplaced Pages. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 12:34, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| == Sockpuppetry in Philippine articles == | |||
| :{{re|Baseball Bugs}} actually, under the current ] policy as tweaked around the end of 2015 (I think), a user ''can'' sue Misplaced Pages (or one of its editors for Misplaced Pages issues), as long as they don't ''threaten'' here to sue: {{tq|"That users are involved in a legal dispute with each other, whether as a result of incidents on Misplaced Pages or elsewhere, is not a reason to block, so long as no legal threats are posted on Misplaced Pages"}}. I do not particularly endorse those changes, and I think they went under a bit of silence. ] (]) 18:12, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=Page protected. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:15, 11 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| ::Let's suppose someone decides to sue me for some unknown reason. How would they found out just who they should sue? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 21:13, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Request an immediate and extended range block for {{User|49.145.5.109}}, a certified sock of LTA ] from editing ] and other related pages pending a result of a protection request, the second to have been filed for that page after the first instance of sockpuppetry by the same account was deemed not serious enough. See also ]. ] (]) 07:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{re|Baseball Bugs}} what, you mean your real name is not Baseball Bugs?! Damn, I better disclaim that cease&desist letter I sent Mr Bugs... ] (]) 21:27, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :It seems like this should be reported at ], not at ANI. That's where the checkusers are at although they are generally reluctant to connect an IP account with a blocked sockpuppet. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But supposing someone uses a pseudonym, what would the plaintiff do? Get some court order compelling Wikimedia to break confidentiality? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 21:30, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::This is already confirmed in the SPI. However, as it is an IP account that can't be indeffed, I'd had to check my calendar too often to see when their existing block expires. 15:48, 8 January 2025 (UTC) ] (]) 15:48, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::{{ping|Baseball Bugs}} yes. ] <sup>''''']'''''</sup> 14:28, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :Given that ] has been protected for the rest of the year, this probably isn't necessary. Also, worth noting that as p-blocks are limited to ten pages, we'd need to remove one from the block to add the 2025 page. ] (] | ]) 00:16, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Seriously though, people on Misplaced Pages can write pseudonymously, but they can also write with their real name and they shouldn't feel all the chills and their effects, IMO. For the purposes of Misplaced Pages, a "legal threat" is an intimidation from freely editing articles, based on possible legal action, which creates chilling effects. What is more of an intimidation with such effects than ''actual'' legal action taking place? "Oh but I didn't threaten it, I just did it" doesn't impress me a lot as a get-out-of-jail-free card. ] (]) 22:50, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == User:Wigglebuy579579 == | |||
| ===Misunderstanding and misinterpretation of legal threats policy=== | |||
| *{{Userlinks|Wigglebuy579579}} keeps engaging in disruptive editing behaviour: | |||
| {{ping|Fortuna_Imperatrix_Mundi|Baseball Bugs|Collect|HighInBC|Hullaballoo Wolfowitz|WaltCip|EEng}} | |||
| # they created dozens of articles by copy-pasting AI-generated text; | |||
| # they ignored all warnings onto their talk{{nbs}}page; | |||
| # they duplicated draftified articles by simply recreating them. | |||
| {{U|Miminity}} and I have been cleaning the mess for hours, warned him several times, but he just ignores everything and starts again.<span id="Est._2021:1736271756958:WikipediaFTTCLNAdministrators'_noticeboard/Incidents" class="FTTCmt">{{snd}}] (] <b>·</b> ]) 17:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)</span> | |||
| : I would support indefinitely blocking this user. Their output is entirely low quality AI-generated slop, and they are contributing nothing of value to the encyclopedia while placing considerable burden on others. ] (]) 18:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :], can you provide some examples so we don't have to search through their contributions? Thank you. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 19:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :: Some pertinent examples ] (moved to mainspace by Wiggle and then back to draftspace) and ] (exactly the same scenario as previous). These are all obviously AI generated based on their formatting. ] (]) 19:09, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{re|Liz}} Examples include: | |||
| :::#], ] and ]; | |||
| :::#] and ]; | |||
| :::#] and ]; | |||
| :::#]; | |||
| :::among others. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 19:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{Ping|Liz}} This editor left a message on my talkpage and again it is clearly written by AI. ] '''''Warm Regards''''', ] (]) (]) 00:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Are any of the references in ] real or are they all hallucinations? I'm having trouble finding them on web searches. They're also suspiciously old even though there is more recent relevant literature. — ] ] 01:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::The ] essay recommends G3 for articles for which text-source integrity is completely lacking. — ] ] 01:22, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{ping|rsjaffe}} Using BookFinder.com, Citation #1, #3 (might be a dupref of 1) does exist but has different author, Citation #2 does exist and is correct. #4 is dupref of #2. A quoted google search and a google scholar search about #5, 8, 9, 11 (The journals does not seem to even exist) yields no result. No result for 6, 7, 9, 10 (Nagaland State Press does not seems to even exist) 12 '''''Warm Regards''''', ] (]) (]) 02:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I would like to hear from @], but, if the results of the reference searches on the other drafts are like this, then all those drafts should be deleted as unverifiable. LLM output can look very correct while hiding significant falsehoods, and it will be impossible to sort fact from fiction in those articles if they haven't been validated word-for-word with real sources. — ] ] 03:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Click all the link on the ], all of them are {{tl|failed verification}}. Either the page does not exist or the website itself does not exist. The JSTOR sources leads to a completely unrelated article. I think by the looks of it, this draft is safe to delete | |||
| ::::{{ping|Wigglebuy579579}} care to explain? '''''Warm Regards''''', ] (]) (]) 03:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{yo|rsjaffe}} more ref-checking at ]: as ] observes, ''The Angami Nagas: With Some Notes on Neighbouring Tribes'' exists (although with the BrE spelling of the title) and I accessed it at archive.org. It does not mention ''pfütsana'' anywhere in its 570 pages. The closest we get is ''pfuchatsuma'', which is a clan mentioned in a list of sub-clans of the Anagmi. The draft says {{tq|The term Pfütsana is derived from the Angami language, where "Pfü" translates to "life" or "spirit,"}} which is contrary to what ''The Angami Nagas'' says – ''pfü'' is a suffix functioning sort of similarly to a pronoun (and I think I know how the LLM hallucinated the meaning "spirit" but this is getting too long already). I looked at a couple of the sources for ] as well, and I haven't been able to find a single instance where the source verifies the claims in the draft. --'']'' <small>] ]</small> 16:48, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thanks for checking. Those are now deleted. — ] ] 16:52, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*] and ], thanks for supplying examples that can be reviewed. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*:I have deleted ] and ] as they have falsified references. Checking the others would be appreciated. Also, editor has been warned on their page about inserting unsubstantiated demographic data in articles. ]. I think we’re running out of ] here. — ] ] 16:19, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*::{{yo|rsjaffe}} ]: J.H. Hutton's ''The Angami Nagas'' (1921) doesn't mention any such festival, but talks about a ''sekrengi'' ritual which includes the "purification" elements described in the draft. But that's as close as it gets. The rest of the ritual described in the draft is '''very''' different from the festival described in the book (let's just say that it is not something that would attract tourists like the draft claims), and the etymology is sheer nonsense. So again I believe it is an LLM that, like the proverbial blind chicken, has found a seed and then, like the same chicken but without a head, is running in confused circles around it. | |||
| :*::It also amuses me a bit that a book from 1922 is used to support a statement about how the festival is a popular symbol of the culture today. (FTR, publications from the era of the British Raj should never be used to support claims about ethnic/tribal/caste related topics, though that is a bit tangential to the issue here.) --'']'' <small>] ]</small> 18:21, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :It's a pity that the editor has not engaged with this discussion. The areas they're editing in could use more work, and I get the impression that they are here to improve the encyclopedia. However, the ''way'' in which they're going about it needs reform, and if they don't explicitly commit to reform, I am inclined to block this editor for the overreliance on LLMs and the careless inclusion of incorrect and false references. What do others think? — ] ] 22:36, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I suggest a ] on creating article as the editor seems to have okay-ish mainspace edits. '''''Warm Regards''''', ] (]) (]) 01:26, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I came across their several days ago, when a link they provided (with an archive link) didn't exist, even when I substituted ".in" for the correct website domain of ".com", so I've got no idea where they got those links from in the first place? | |||
| ::They've responded to my talk page warning, but after going back to edit the exact same article they haven't fixed/reinstated the source so I'm now a little concerned that it came from AI & the user didn't find it themselves. They've done a ''lot'' of work on this article so I'm hoping it's just a one-off, but thought I'd best mention it. | |||
| ::Their had the summary "Fixed errors" and removed almost a dozen sources/links. ] (]) 02:16, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::That is very concerning. And the user is still editing and not responding to this discussion. Blocked from article space and draft space and reinvited to come here to discuss. — ] ] 05:06, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == User:BittersweetParadox - Overlinking == | |||
| With all due respect to the blocking administrator and everyone else who has supported the block, this situation has been badly mishandled. As has been explained on this noticeboard several times before, a statement that something written on Misplaced Pages is "libelous" or "defamatory" is not, in and of itself, a "legal threat", any more than a statement that something is a copyright violation is a legal threat. A "legal threat" is a statement (or perhaps a very strong implication) of the writer's intention to sue one or more editors or the Wikimedia Foundation, or take some similar action against them. In the case of this particular edit, which deals with something that occurred in 1923, no legal claim for defamation could be brought even in theory because, at least in most jurisdictions (including the U.S., the U.K. and Ireland), only living persons can sue for defamation. | |||
| {{atop|Not a problem; request rejected}} | |||
| The misconception that any passing reference to an article's content as being defamatory constitutes a legal threat seems to remain widespread even though this issue was dealt with in an arbitration decision I wrote and which was unanimously adopted six years ago (see, ] in page history). As explained in that decision, and ''as subsequently written into the policy page that everyone is citing'', at ], use of words such as "libelous" or "defamatory" is discouraged because such language could be misinterpreted or perceived as a legal threat and thus damages the editing environment. Nonetheless, the policy specifically states in discussing editors' use of such language, ''"Rather than immediately blocking users who post apparent threats, administrators should first seek to clarify the user's intention"'' and that is certainly what should have occurred here. | |||
| *{{userlinks|BittersweetParadox}} | |||
| Even if a more express legal threat had been made, and even if the "threat" would have had more substance even if it had been made, allowances must be made for newcomers who are unfamiliar with Misplaced Pages's editing norms and policies, and who may be reacting out of unhappiness or anger at the treatment of themselves or a family member on the largest and most prominent interactive website in the world. See generally, ], ], and in a related context, ], all of which seriously discourage blocking as a first response except in extreme situations. | |||
| This user is persistently ]ing throughout most of their edits that aren't dealing with categories or redirects, see for example: | |||
| Policy should always be enforced with due regard to what Misplaced Pages is and what we are all trying to accomplish here. The situation at the moment is that someone reached out to us angrily because he or she perceived that an ancestor was being unfairly maligned, and we struck back by immediately preventing them from editing any more coupled with a barely tailored template pointing them to a complicated policy page. This is not the way Misplaced Pages is supposed to work. | |||
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| I have also ] regarding this, but they have seemingly chosen to ignore that warning, as they are still continuing with the same behavior: | |||
| The block should be reversed and a more reasonable explanation of our editing policy and the reasons for it should be provided to the IP, with the request that he or she bring any further concerns to the article talkpage. It is only out of the possibility that perhaps I have missed something that I am holding off on unblocking pending a bit more discussion, rather than unblocking immediately. ] (]) 15:59, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
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| This is also not the first time the issue has been brought up to the user, as they were previously warned in ], where even after claiming to understand the issue/say they won't do it again, . With their ignoring of warnings regarding overlinking, it unfortunately appears that an ANI discussion may be the only way to solve this ongoing issue, apart from a block. ] (]) 17:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :The block should stay until or if the user recants and disavows this statement: "The Ballyseedy Massacre and its aftermath: Bob Lambert did not order the killing of three Free State leaders in March 1923 and any suggestion that he did will be treated by his family, my family, as defamatory." ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 16:15, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Did you read any portion of what I wrote? ] (]) 16:16, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::You consider that threatening statement to be a "passing reference"? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 16:18, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::You should likely note that I did ''not'' say that the IP should be blocked - in fact I pointed out that the claim he objected to was ''poorly sourced'' in the first place. Cheers. ] (]) 16:59, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{ping|Collect}} I didn't attribute any statement to you. I pinged everyone who had commented in the thread. ] (]) 17:00, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::If you want this re-statement of policy to become the emphatic norm amongst the community at large, I'd suggest pinging a ''helluvva'' lot more editors than just those involved here. ] <sup>''''']'''''</sup> 18:02, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| They did not just say it was defamatory, they said "'''will be treated by his family, my family, as defamatory'''". "will be treated" is a threat of action. It was clearly meant to have a chilling effect. | |||
| :Overlinking still continuing on despite this ANI (), and even with an administrator , continues on with their edits/ignoring this ANI. The user is not appearing to want to ] whatsoever, and some of their communication over issues in the past does not bode well as well (). | |||
| I feel the block was in line with policy and our best practices. I don't think it is good for our NPOV to let users intimidate others like that. If you want to reverse the block go ahead, but please take responsibility for any future intimidation this user attempts. ] 17:21, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :They are adding many uses of , despite the usage instructions saying that the template should '''''not''''' be used in prose text. I really am not sure what more there is to do here, as any attempts at communicating with the user does virtually nothing. ] (]) 20:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *{{ping|BittersweetParadox}} It's rather insulting to state you'll comment here and then continue to overlink . Please stop editing like this until you can address the above concerns. Rgrds. --] (]) 07:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{ping|Liz}} Apologies for the ping, but could there please be some assistance here?... As BX stated above, despite their only communication thus far since this ANI (being a simple, "ok"), they have still continued overlinking- now overlinking '''''even more''''' since BX's comment above: . I'm really not sure what more there is that can be done here apart from a block, as it appears this is just going to continue on, no matter what anyone says here or on their talk page. ] (]) 16:55, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Several of the diffs you give are positive changes, and your inappropriate reverts have caused articles to be underlinked. Leave BittersweetParadox alone. If you insist that he be sanctioned for the negative edits, you'll get some as well. ] (]) 03:47, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Automatic editing, abusive behaviour, and disruptive(ish) wikihounding from ] == | |||
| :The editor was actually following our ] (removing unsourced information). We even use the word defamatory in the ] {{tq|Editors who find themselves in edit wars over potentially defamatory material... }}. That the IP editor did not know the magic word "BLP," but rather used common sense is not a reason to block; furthermore, such reactionary blocking is far more "chilling" than ambiguous edit summaries. <small>]</small> 17:48, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|result={{nac}} While {{u|KMaster888}}'s editing history (the original discussion) wasn't inherently bad in itself, their conduct after being questioned about it was bad, violating ], ], ], and ] See , , , , , , , , , and their comments on this thread. Indeffed by {{u|Cullen328}}, and TPA revoked after , another personal attack. ]<sup>]</sup> 02:18, 9 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| ] appears to be making lightning speed edits that are well beyond the capacity of any human to review, in addition to article content that's coming across potentially LLM-like in nature. Since December they've made over 11,000 edits, many across multiple articles within a sixty second window. | |||
| I attempted to ask about the policies around this at ] and was met with a tirade of obscenities and abuse (which I want to give them a slight benefit of the doubt on, I'd be upset at being accused of being a bot if I wasn't): | |||
| ::Gee I hate to repeat myself, but they did not just say "defamatory". They said "'''will be treated by his family, my family, as defamatory'''". This is a threat of action. The phrase "will be treated by family" is a promise of action as shown by the words "'''will'''" and "'''be treated'''". The words "'''his family, my family'''" shows that the threat is coming from them and not just a warning about a 3rd party. This is not simply someone saying something is defamatory, it is showing an intent to take action. | |||
| ::The NLT blocking template explains what caused the block and what they can do to get unblocked. They can retract the threat any time. ] 17:56, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Well said, ]. ], what are you doing back here? I thought you'd been kicked off the admin noticeboards years ago for this type of stupid shit-stirring. As for the rest of you, especially ], "treated as defamatory" does not equal "I will sue you". It might. But it might mean a letter to the WMF. It might mean taking the issue to ANI or BLPN. Or something else. Clarify what the editor means before acting. --] (] · ] · ]) 00:57, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :You've got it wrong, on all counts. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 01:31, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| As far as I can tell this peaked with a total of 89 edits in a four minute window between 08:27 to 08:31 on December 28, 2024. Most are innocuous, but there are content edits thrown in the mix and recent articles were written in a way that indicates it may be an LLM ( not definitive, though if you are familiar with LLM output this may ring some alarm bells, but false alarms abound). | |||
| ::Your ] attack against Bugs does little to contribute to the conversation. Nothing is gained by attacking people who disagree with you. ] 03:41, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::He hasn't been particularly active of late, so it's understandable why he's behind the curve on these matters. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 03:53, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Following the quite hot thread at ]'s page, it's quite clear that whoever is operating that bot threw my entire edit history into the mix, because the bot systematically edited ''every single article'' that I had edited, ''in reverse order'' (over 100 so far since this came up about an couple of hours ago), going back a reasonable amount of time. | |||
| *I agree that this is not strong enough to fall under NLT directly, but it's uncivil and chilling to vaguely hint at some kind of consequences, even—or perhaps especially—where it's just as likely the threat refers to extrajudicial action. There does need to be an adequate ] assessment here, even if we don't consider it as actionable under NLT. All that said, I would caution us all against letting the pendulum swing too far in the other direction, to the extent of only allowing NLT blocks where a "reasonable anticipation of litigation" arises. NLT may be interpretable in that way, but I believe the practices of the community have redefined the policy in such a way that NLT is broader than that. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 01:34, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| The problem is that it's clear that a bot was instructed to just make an edit, without concern for what those edits are, so you end up with , , or at a rate far faster than any editor could address. | |||
| Chillum, you have access to the block tool. You don't have to pull it out and wave it about in situations like this. Just talk to the man for Christ's sake. "Sorry. We're looking into it. It's being discussed <nowiki>]</nowiki>. By the way, check out ]." Listen, inform, advise, be polite and helpful. Bashing people with your tool when a bit of advice will do just as well is the very definition of being a dick. --] (] · ] · ]) 06:00, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| This one is easily one of the strangest situations I've ever encountered on Misplaced Pages. ] 20:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :You are welcome to propose a change to NLT. As it stands legal threats call for a block, not a warning. Keep your insults to yourself, they are far more dickish then enforcing the policy that the community created. Seriously, I don't deserve to be treated this way for doing my job here. If you don't like the policy then seek to change it, don't just bitch at the guy who enforces it. | |||
| :I'm flattered that you've looked into my activity on Misplaced Pages so closely. But if you'd be arsed, you'd understand that it is very simple to do an insource search using a regular expression to find a lot of stylistic errors, like no space after a sentence. If you love being on my back so much, good on you, but I'd wish if you got off. ] (]) 20:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :] has not been edited since 26 August 2015. I follow the consensus of the community and that policy has been very stable. If you don't like the policy then change it and I will follow that. I don't pick and choose how I enforce policy. ] 14:28, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::1) That doesn't explain how consistently abusive you have been | |||
| ::2) While I'm aware that an overwhelming percentage of the errors you're editing out are ones that can simply be addressed by regex, I'm very clearly raising the content edits as opposed to formatting ones. ] 20:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :How about we take this off of ANI, of all places? ] (]) 21:00, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::No, this feels quite appropriate considering your abusiveness and that your retaliation involved damaging some articles. I said there I was asking a policy question and was happy to let it go, you've edited over 100 articles from my edit history in direct sequence in response to that question, which is just strange behaviour for an editor. ] 21:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Obviously, if there's someone who's making bad decisions on Misplaced Pages (You), I want to check if he has messed up articles. Please tell me what articles you think I have damaged. ] (]) 21:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Also, I'd appreciate if you would stop casting aspersions about me being an LLM. ] (]) 21:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::As I said then, and as I'll say again: If there's not an LLM involved in this situation, then I'm sincerely sorry. It was a combination of clearly assisted editing and the verbiage used that looked concerning. ] 21:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::There was no assisted editing. Stop spreading that blatant falsehood. This is why I say to take this off of ANI. It is stuff that is made up in your head that has no basis in reality. ] (]) 21:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::<s>Unless you're doing regex with your eyes, clearly you're using assistance. And the fact you're (still!) doing something that fixes the same type of typo almost as fast as I can click "Random Article" indicates you're doing more than just regex. You're finding these articles somehow.</s> <span style="font-family:monospace">]]</span> 22:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I am doing an "insource" search using regex. ] (]) 22:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::I learned about insource searches recently and was able to find spam by the boatload immediately. It is a great tool. ] (]) 22:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Ah . I wasn't aware one could do that. I retract. <span style="font-family:monospace">]]</span> 22:36, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::And, I would appreciate if you would stop calling my edits strange and odd. ] (]) 21:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::You had over 100 edits in a row directily in chronological sequence, from newest to oldest, of my exact edit history excluding wikiprojects and talk pages. I'm allowed to find that a little strange. ] 21:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Why shouldn't someone call strange and odd edits strange and odd? ] (]) 21:32, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :@] I suggest you stop with the personal attacks before you get blocked. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 21:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Maybe I'm a little less forgiving than Tarlby, so I would suggest that {{u|KMaster888}} should be blocked/banned already. Knowing how to write regular expressions doesn't give anyone the right to ignore policy about such issues as civility and hounding. ] (]) 21:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I have not ignored policy on either civility or hounding. The fact is, there are no automation tools that I have used, and this has been constructed as a theory entirely as a falsehood. It is annoying that one Misplaced Pages user constantly spouts falsehoods about me. ] (]) 21:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'll just ask you straight up.{{pb}}Do you feel any remorse for this statement? {{tq|remove asshole}} {{pb}}Could you explain why you felt it was best to choose those two words when blanking your talk page? ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 21:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::And again: {{tq|@The Corvette ZR1 @Tarlby stop clogging up ANI with your comments.}} ]<sup>]</sup> 22:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::, , , , , ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 21:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::And this: and this: ] (]) 21:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::That was because Misplaced Pages's servers literally went down, which didn't allow the PHP form to be processed correctly. I would say the same to you as I said to the other editor: get off my back. ] (]) 21:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::You have to abide by the rules like the rest of us. And cool it with the hostile edit summaries. ]] 21:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::]. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 21:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::You are clearly ]. Attacking other editors instead of backing off, inappropriate edit summaries, what next? ]<sup>]</sup> 21:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::There ought to be a gossip noticeboard that doesn't clog up ANI. ] (]) 21:45, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I will dispute what you said. I AM HERE to build an encyclopedia. Why do you think I would have given 10,000 edits worth of my time if I didn't care? ] (]) 21:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I would say that you are here to build an encyclopedia. Unfortunately, ] and ] tell me the contrary. ]<sup>]</sup> 21:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Regardless of their editing or otherwise, KMaster888's comments in edit summaries ''and here'' indicate they're ] in a way that indicates an inability to participate in a collaborative encyclopedia. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:07, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::The product of Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, which is a body of written and visual work. It is first and foremost about the product, not the community. In this sense, it is indeed a collaborative encyclopedia, but it should not be considered an encyclopedic collaboation. ] (]) 23:13, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::: ] over what "collaboration" is doesn't help when you're in blatant violation of ] of the ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::I'm not Wikilawyering. I would also encourage you to come to a discussion on my talk page over small potatoes instead of at ANI. ] (]) 23:19, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::: is wikilawyering. And this is at ANI, so the discussion is taking place at ANI. Answering the concerns about your conduct that were raised here on here is how you resolve the issue, not "don't talk about it on ANI", as the latter gives the impression of trying to sweep them under the rug - especially since your edit summaries MrOllie linked above make it clear this is very much not "small potatoes". - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Here's some more diffs of KMaster888 being uncivil. From my user talk page. . I think these are forgivable if in isolation since KMaster888 may be frustrated by false accusations of being a bot, but if it's a pattern, it may need addressing. | |||
| :The ] and ] of my user talk page and of this ANI is also a behavioral problem that, if a pattern, may also need addressing. It is disrespectful to interlocutor's time and brainpower to dominate discussions by replying to everything. –] <small>(])</small> 23:36, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Unless there are specific discussion rules, I should not be penalized for responding to comments that involve me. ] (]) 23:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::The problem isn't you responding to those comments. It's about HOW you responded to those comments. ]<sup>]</sup> 23:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::There are, in fact, {{tqq|specific discussion rules}} - ] and ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 06:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Propose indefinite block=== | |||
| ::] Please try to remember this in future. Now that it has been pointed out to you, if I see you blocking people for apparent legal threats without first clarifying their intentions and pointing them to ], I'll take you straight to ArbCom. Follow policy - especially with regard to blocking or threats to block. Don't be a cowboy. --] (] · ] · ]) 15:32, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=Blocked and TPA revoked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 06:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| :::"Should" ≠ "shall". It's within the admin's discretion unless there's some other problem. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 17:33, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *{{userlinks|KMaster888}} | |||
| :::::]: Yes, should ≠ shall. We allow for exceptions where intelligent admins may use their discretion, or even make the occasional error. Exceptions. Occasional. --] (] · ] · ]) 03:21, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| They demonstrate a severe inability to interact in the collegiate manner this project requires. The edit summaries are not merely uncivil, but dismissive: ignoring colleagues is worse than just being rude to them. Their behaviour on Novem Linguae's talk pretty much sums it up.{{pb}}Whether they are actually a bot or running a scruipt doesn't really matter: WP:BOTLIKE is pretty cl;ear trhat "it is irrelevant whether high-speed or large-scale edits that a) are contrary to consensus or b) cause errors an attentive human would not make are actually being performed by a bot, by a human assisted by a script, or even by a human without any programmatic assistance". So 10,000 edits or not, the edits smack of being bot/script-generated, and may also be WP:STALKING.{{PB}}I also don't set any store by the excuse for "wiping ass with comments", "improve asinine comment" and "remove asshole" being that {{blue|Misplaced Pages's servers literally went down, which didn't allow the PHP form to be processed correctly.}} WMF servers going down (or not) do not cause aggressive edit summaries, and we are not fools. The fact that the same attitude pervades through this discussion—"everyone, get off my back"—suggests that this is default behaviour rather than a one off. ]'']''] 23:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Indeed. This block-happy refusal to exercise judgment, or even to recognize that judgment ''can'' be exercised, is distressing to see in an admin. ''']]''' 18:58, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :You're saying "they" like it's more than one person. I am one editor. ] (]) 23:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::When someone makes a legal threat, the only editing they should be allowed to do is to go to their user page to recant and disavow the legal threat. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 19:14, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Not in that sense. We use they/them pronouns as to not assume an editor's gender. ]<sup>]</sup> 23:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Another tired, blinkered restatement that ignores everything anyone's said here. Perhaps I should have said, "This block-happy refusal to exercise judgment, or even to recognize that judgment ''can'' be exercised, is distressing to see in an admin (<u>or in any other editor, for that matter</u>)." ''']]''' 20:13, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per above reasoning. ]] 23:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{hat|Hatting this before it drags on further. ]<sup>]</sup> 22:42, 29 March 2016 (UTC)}} | |||
| *:Looks like {{noping|Cullen328}} beat us to that indef. ]] 23:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::If you don't like the policy, you should lobby for changing it. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 20:50, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per ] behavior. Their blank talkpage, on which they encourage discussion, has a nonexistent archive. ]] 23:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Another tired, blinkered restatement that ignores everything anyone's said here. This block-happy refusal to exercise judgment, or even to recognize that judgment ''can'' be exercised, is distressing to see in an admin (or in any other editor, for that matter). ''']]''' 22:31, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *:That is not true. The archive page is at the subpage of the talk page, /archive. ] (]) 23:45, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Wow, man, it's like deja vu. It's like deja vu. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 22:36, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Another tired attempt to distract from the failure to exercise judgment. ''']]''' 22:38, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::Thanks for keeping it to the executive summary this time. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 22:40, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| {{hab}} | |||
| :'''Support -''' While I wouldn’t have had the same suspicions about their editing as Warren, their extremely uncivil reactions to it and further questions here, along with the further attention they’ve drawn on to prior recent behaviour has effectively demonstrated an unwillingness to engage in meaningful interaction with any other editor who disagrees with them. ] (]) 23:52, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{od}} If there's one thing I learned while on Misplaced Pages is that admins and editors don't know what a legal threat is and will block someone based on their own interpretations of what a legal threat is. I was once blocked until I "took it back," Meanwhile, on my talk page 90% of the editors commenting criticized the block. ] <sup><font color="Green">]</font></sup> 13:42, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| : |
:Maybe revoke TPA too? This is beyond the pale. <span style="font-family:monospace">]]</span> 23:57, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | ||
| ::Wow… ] ] 00:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :: I am referring to that, and no, that is not a legal threat. The ADL is not a court of law. If I said, I'm going to email CNN about you, is that a '''legal''' threat? No. Admins need to follow policy and just saying, "I'm going to email/contact X" is not a LEGAL threat. ] <sup><font color="Green">]</font></sup> 20:01, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| {{od}}I have indefinitely blocked KMaster888 for personal attacks and harassment, and disruptive behavior. ] (]) 23:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Its intent was to intimidate, hence it qualifies. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 20:07, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :After their latest personal attack, I have revoked their talk page access. ] (]) 23:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Like I said, you and most admins need to read up on the NLT policy. ]kindly posted it and reiterated that a legal threat requires a legal threat. ] <sup><font color="Green">]</font></sup> 20:10, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. is beyond the pale. This is clearly a person that lets rage get the best of them, and is not responsive to feedback. Not sure if we should close this, or let it play out and turn into a CBAN. –] <small>(])</small> 00:17, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Unless your threat was intended as a joke, it qualifies, and you were properly blocked for it - and reinstated once you disavowed it. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 20:18, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Good block''' and I'd have done same if you hadn't been here first. Regardless of whether the edits were improvements, no one has the right to treat other editors as KM888 did. ] ] 01:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Good block''' It'd take a hand-written miracle from God for them to change their ways anytime soon. | |||
| Please note that what I have said here does not require any change to the existing policy, but adherence to the ''existing'' policy as per modifications made as long ago as 2010. | |||
| :] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 03:01, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| ===Investigating the hounding claim=== | |||
| I any case, I am going to unblock the IP now with an appropriately tailored message about collaborative editing, even though I realize that if this is a dynamic IP, this is mostly a symbolic gesture. ] (]) 23:21, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Above, there is a claim that KMaster888 is ] Warrenmck by editing 100 pages that Warrenmck has edited. The suggests that there's only an overlap of 45 pages (42 if you subtract out my user talk, KMaster888's user talk, and ANI). {{u|Warrenmck}}, can you please be very specific about exactly which pages overlap? Maybe give a link to KMaster888's contribs and timestamps of where this range of hounding edits begins and ends? This is a serious claim and probably actionable if enough evidence is provided. –] <small>(])</small> 23:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Note that there are >100 ''edits'' across the pages, since they tended to edit in a spree. The number of pages you found seems accurate, even accounting for the possibility of a few outside of this exchange. I’m not sure what exactly I can do to show the relationship to my edit history beyond I guess go pull said histories and compare them? But I wouldn’t be surprised if the vast majority of the interactions you see were from that narrow window after your talk page. | |||
| Let's review: | |||
| Now, what could be done about defamatory material on Misplaced Pages? Here's an incomplete list. | |||
| # remove it using the English word "defamatory" in the edit summary | |||
| # remove it using the wiki lingo "BLP" | |||
| # refer it to ] | |||
| # email info-en-q@wikipedia.org per ] | |||
| # post on AN | |||
| # post on your favorite admin's talk page | |||
| #post {{tl|admin help}} on the article talk page | |||
| #post a comment on the article talk page | |||
| #post a comment on the inserting user's talk page | |||
| #find someone on ] and email them | |||
| #email cu-ombuds-l-at-lists.wikimedia.org per ] | |||
| #file a lawsuit | |||
| #threaten to sue an contributor | |||
| Of those, only the last two are blockable legal threats. To decided "action" means "legal action" without evidence is an assumption and we have a policy on that: ]. The simplest, least drama solution to simply notify the editor of the ''right'' thing (e.g. ] ) to do rather than inform them of the wrong one. <small>]</small> 00:09, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Watch -- now someone will say that if you want to change the NLT policy you should get consensus. ''']]''' 03:35, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :Sorry for the drama, by the way. ] 01:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == English Democrats == | |||
| ::Ah that makes sense. I didn't think of the multiple edits to a page thing. No worries about the drama. –] <small>(])</small> 02:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Please don't apologise for this. Nobody should have to put up with such behaviour. ] (]) 09:47, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == User:Bgsu98 mass-nominating articles for deletion and violating ] == | |||
| The ] are not a far-right party. However the political ideology box on their page says they are "far right". I've been warned about saying this is slanderous. However, it clearly is - especially when the source provided does no even say "far right" but "right wing". Bizarrely I have tried to point this out on the talk page only to get people leaving warning messages on my talk page. | |||
| *{{userlinks|Bgsu98}} | |||
| Hello! Sorry if this isn't the right place to post this.<br /> | |||
| See also my discussion here: https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:English_Democrats#Political_spectrum ] (]) 13:32, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| I noticed an editor named {{u|Bgsu98}} who had been mass-nominating figure skater articles for deletion. It is too obvious to me that he doesn't do even a minimum search required by ] before nominating. (I must note that most of the skaters he nominates for AfD aren't English, so a foreign language search is required. Sometimes you need to search on a foreign search engine. For example, Google seems to ignore many Russian websites recently.)<br />I have counted 45 articles nominated by him at ]. And it is worrying that people seem to rely on the nominator's competence and vote "delete" without much thought. | |||
| I should note that {{u|Bgsu98}} doesn't seem to stop even when an article he nominated has been kept. He nominated ] (a national medalist) two times with the same rationale (]). One can really wonder why he does this. | |||
| :Not "slanderous" just an abuse of cites - the two given do not support "far-right" at all. Happens far too often on Misplaced Pages - some folks think giving a "ref" means no one will ever actually check the claim asserted to be made in it. ] (]) 13:40, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::This appears to be a content dispute to me. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:21, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| : ED are widely identified as far right by ]. ED hates this and fans have spent many hours trying to change this in Misplaced Pages. Anything more you need to know? <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 23:40, 27 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :Saying something is slanderous is a bad idea since it runs the risk it'll be perceived as trying the same thing as try for the same sort of chilling effect of a legal threat. In a few limited cases like with BLPs, it may be acceptable but the vast majority of the time, you should instead clearly explain what the problem is in accordance with wikipedia policy rather than needing to bring up slander/libel. ] (]) 00:27, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| P.S. More information is here: ]. What happened is that the notability guidelines for some sportspeople were changed a few years ago. And a large chunk of figure skater articles (most of them, honestly) are now outside of ]. It seems that no one acted on this change until {{u|Bgsu98}} came. | |||
| ::When people say things on the article's talk page such as {{tq|"Since we are required to edit carefully all articles naming living persons, the rule is clear - since more sources just say "right wing" we pretty much have to stick with the less extreme adjective"}}, it seems clear that BLP is being brought up as applying. Sometimes, to some people, rules seem very clear, and policies involving biographies apply to all articles naming living people (even when it concerns the parts that aren't specifically about the people). I sometimes wish I could have such certainties in my life. ] (]) 00:45, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Even in BLP cases you should still avoid bringing up defamation. I'm not going to fault someone who mentions slander if we call someone a paedophile who raped lots of kids and helped makes bombs and provided other support for ISIS and tortured random people and cute furry animals to death when there is zero sourcing for any of this (perhaps it's vandalism); but it's not likely to be helpful to bring up slander because we call a political party far right regardless of the sourcing problems and even if it does name living people associated with it. ] (]) 04:45, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::If standard dispute resolution processes have not yet been attempted, I would suggest ] process on the article talk page, with pre-formatted sections on the talk page when you start the RFC one for previously-involved and another for previously-uninvolved-editors, to gain some further insight into the article and how to hopefully constructively move forward with additional outside input. Recommendation: When doing so, suggest gaining additional helpful previously-uninvolved-contributors to the ] on the article talk page, by posting a neutrally-worded-notice to ] — ''']''' (]) 16:18, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| P.P.S. As I stated on the WikiProject Figure Skating talk page I linked above, I think it was very unfair to change the rules. Especially since web sources tend to die out after some time. | |||
| == ] & blacklisted website/s? == | |||
| P.P.P.S. I would also like to note that I am polite, while {{u|Bgsu98}} has already accused me of "bad-faith accusations and outright lies" (). --] (]) 01:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I am also prevented from creating ], so it doesn't seem to be a problem with lowercase sigmabot, but page restrictions. I think that, the solution would simply to have an admin create the next archive page, but I am unsure if anything else should be done. <span style="text-shadow:7px 5px 7px maroon">-- ] <sup><span style="font-size:80%">]</span></sup></span> 00:29, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :: I have created a blank ]. Only admins, crats, and template editors can override the ]. — ] <small>(]'''·'''])</small> 01:41, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Could someone (like an admin...) please help with this page restriction issue? I know sigmabot isn't technically malfunctioning but would like to get ] archived, hasn't been archived in 5 years (yes FIVE years). There are posts on there from 2011 and the talkpage has gotten too big. Thanks, ] (]) 14:35, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :as the closer of several skating AfDs, I have no issue with a DRV if @] or any other editor believes I closed it in error. However MC, you seem to acknowledge these skaters don't meet the rules and have an issue with the rules. That isn't grounds for a DRV nor a report against @] who is nominating based on community consensus. ] ] 02:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ==Legal threat== | |||
| ::I agree with Star Mississippi. But just to give some scope, this cleaning house, mostly of ice skating junior champions, is not recent, it's been going on for at least 6-9 months now, it was originally done through the use of PROD'd articles. But while there have been some objections raised over the past year, Bgsu98's efforts have mostly received support from editors who believe Misplaced Pages is bloated with biographies of marginally notable athletes. Over the past two weeks, through the use of AFD, we have seen dozens and dozens (hundreds?) of annual national skating championship articles either deleted or redirected. But I just want to note that these AFDs wouldn't have closed as "Delete all" or "Redirect all" without the support of other AFD participants. Very few editors are arguing to Keep them all. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{u|Wikicology}} has made a legal threat , claiming 'Invasion of the right to privacy can be the basis for a lawsuit for damages against the person or entity violating the right. You are unlawfully intruding into my private life, unauthorized disclosure of my personal information.' Background: he has created an article about himself (actually the article about himself). See | |||
| ::"''However MC, you seem to acknowledge these skaters don't meet the rules and have an issue with the rules.''"<br />— They don't meet ], but most (if not all) are famous people and should meet ]. Therefore, caution should be exercised when deleting. I don't think a national silver medalist can be unknown, it is just that reliable sources are hard or even impossible to find now. It appears that some years ago the rules didn't require ], so skater articles were created with simply "He advanced to the free skate at the 2010 World Championships" or "He is a national senior silver medalist", which was enough for an article to not be "picked at". The editors who created skater articles back then probably didn't want to do more than a bare minimum and didn't care to add reliable sources beyond the ISU website profile. One who decides to delete a skater article must keep in mind that reliable sources probably existed at the time the article was created. Cause, as I've said, these skaters arn't unknown. They represented their countries at the highest possible level of competition.<br />(I've recently noticed that Google News don't go as far back as before. Some web sites deleted their older content. Some have even completely disappeared. Like, I mostly edit music articles, and I've noticed that if didn't create some articles 10 years ago, I wouldn't be able to create them now.) --] (]) 17:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *{{la|Olatunde olalekan isaac}} | |||
| :::Even if being a junior national medallist was enough in and of itself, ] has always been a thing. You can't just state some fact that would meet a specific notability guideline like ] without providing verification of the claim without the possibility that the article will be nominated at AFD or redirected. '']''<sup>]</sup> 02:35, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *{{la|Olatunde Olalekan Isaac}} | |||
| ::{{re|Star Mississippi|Liz}} A ], a deletion review? Is it maybe possible to undelete "]" (])? Cause I was searching for sources for ] and found something like a short biography of hers, two paragraphs long.<br />Here: .<br />And again, it was {{u|Bgsu98}} who nominated the article back in May. And he was told, I'm quoting ]: "''There are a whole bunch of similarly deficient nominations. Really, such blanket nominations without evidence of WP:BEFORE and consideration of WP:ATD should be all procedurally kept as WP:SKCRIT#3 given lack of a valid deletion rationale''." --] (]) 23:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *{{la|Olatunde O Isaac}} | |||
| ::After looking at ], I think no one will say that I was incorrect about how people vote at AfD. There's even a comment like this: "WP:NSKATE lists some very clear criteria for inclusion, which this article does not meet." And then a more experienced user noted that you should actually search for coverage that may satisfy WP:GNG, but no one actually searched and the article was deleted. --] (]) 00:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *{{la|Olatunde isaac}} | |||
| :: I have also found an interview with ]: . Yes, it is an interview, but there an editorial paragraph about her (an introductiion). There also a short paragraph here → . Not much, but considering she competed almost 20 years ago... --] (]) 00:34, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *{{la|Olatunde olalekan}} | |||
| :::Yes @] you're welcome to file a deletion review or request that @] provide you the draft to improve with the sourcing you identified. Neither of us can unilaterally overturn the community discussion. ] ] 14:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *{{la|olatunde isaac O}} | |||
| :::Yes @] you're welcome to file a deletion review or request that @] provide you the draft to improve with the sourcing you identified. Neither of us can unilaterally overturn the community discussion. ] ] 14:36, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Okay. --] (]) 17:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : This is a content dispute and not an ANI-worthy issue. ] ] 03:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :: I don't think this is a content dispute. I think the user violates ], otherwise it would be impossible to create tons of nominations. And please look at the AfD page, all his nominations simply say: "Non-notable figure skater", "Non-notable figure skater, PROD removed", "Non-notable figure skater; no senior-level medal placements" or "Non-notable figure skater; highest medal placement was silver at the German nationals". It is obvious that there's no ] research and as little consideration as "humanly possible".<br />Okay, since Bgsu98 pinged someone in his support, I'll ping {{u|BeanieFan11}} and {{u|Doczilla}}. (Sorry for disturbing you, BeanieFan11 and Doczilla.) --] (]) 15:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::When closing one AfD, I made some observations about that day's many AfDs and noted in that one close regarding Bgsu98: "The nominator's burst of dozens of nominations within half an hour failed to stimulate any discussion about many of them." In my meager opinion, the massive number of rapid deletion nominations rather strongly might suggest, at the very least, a lack of due diligence regarding each and a likely violation of WP:BEFORE. ] <sub>]</sub> 07:02, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :] claims to be polite, yet wrote : ''"random people at AfD don't care about actually checking the notability and just vote "delete per nom"''. Pinging ] who also found that comment objectionable. I have made an effort to thank editors who have participated in my AFD's, regardless of whether they have always agreed with my findings, because AFD's that end in "no consensus" do nothing but waste everyone's time. | |||
| :He has been adversarial and confrontational in every communication to me. From ]: ''"By the way, I don't understand your agenda here on AfD... Like, you nomitated ] 2 (two) times with exactly the same rationale... Are you planning to nominate it 100 times?"'' | |||
| :I always appreciate constructive feedback when it's delivered in a courteous and professional manner. ] seems incapable of courtesy or professionalism. ] ] 04:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*C'mon, ], civility goes both ways. We can discuss the value of these articles and the AFD process without attacking each other. Flinging mud doesn't give anyone the moral high ground. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*:I apologize, ]; I am just at my wit's end with this editor. ] ] 04:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*Here's my take, ]. You have been taking extremely BOLD actions now for most of 2024, proposing the removal of certain articles that are now being judged to be of non-notable article subjects. I think we have even had other discussions about these mass deletions on ANI before when they were still being done in the PROD world. When you take on a project like cleaning house of hundreds of articles that other editors spent time creating and improving, you can expect pushback even if you have policy on your side. Any action that seems "mass" can cause alarm in regular editors who don't believe sufficient care is being taken before tagging these articles for deletion. While I might agree with the overall goal of your project, I think it's important to have empathy for editors who have contributed to these articles over the years that are now being regularly deleted. Most of my work involves the deletion of pages and I still feel some pangs of guilt over removing articles that editors have poured hours into, even if i know they don't meet Misplaced Pages's current standards. It's a job that must be done but I know that it's disappointing to many of our content creators. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*:As I have been pinged on this discussion I thought I would 1 confirm I did find @] to be somewhat rude and condescending in their repeated assertions that those who vote on these skating AFDs do not do any research and are basically sheep just voting delete and 2 most of these nominated bios are a few sentences or just a table of stats copy and pasted so @] I doubt anyone spent hours putting them together. Finally I feel @] is now looking to use any procedure they can to try and besmirch @] and derail their valid efforts to remove some of the seemingly thousands of sports bios that do not meet current Misplaced Pages guidelines and are of interest to few, if any, general reader. If anyone is in need of reprimand or sanction over this matter (which has been blown out of all proportion), it is @] ] (]) 09:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*::Why should I be "reprimanded"? My comments about "people at AfD' were non-specific, while {{u|Bgsu98}} directly accused me of lying. (In the Russian Misplaced Pages, he would be blocked for this "automatically".)<br />Also, a note to admins: Can it be that {{u|Bgsu98}} finds fun in annoying other editors? I can't really explain the content of his user page differently. Yes, surely, different people can have different motivation for editing Misplaced Pages, but I don't think it is a "normal situation" when you look at someone's user page and see how the person likes to be "evil".<br />And, btw, please note that Bgsu98 summoned Shrug02 here for the purpose of supporting him. I haven't summoned anybody. (Maybe some people would notice, but Bgsu98 deleted my ANI notice from his talk page immediately.) --] (]) 15:35, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*:::@] I am going to be generous and presume English is not your first language so your choice of wording might be a little off. However, I was not "summoned" or asked to support anyone. @] pinged me and I gave my view. I did not say you SHOULD be reprimanded, I said IF anyone was to be sanctioned over this matter then it would be you. My reasoning for this is your attacking @], making broad statements questioning the intelligence of people at AFD discussions and using this forum incorrectly. As for what happens on Russian Misplaced Pages, that is their busines. I hope you have read @]'s comment as I think it sums this situation up nicely. ] (]) 15:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*:::: I haven't questioned anybody's intelligence. It is just my experience that many people trust the nominator and vote "delete" without much thinking. They maybe quickly visit the article in discussion, look at the "References" section, that's enough for them. And they typically don't speak Russian or Hebrew or whatever. So, when they see "Selepen", they hardly go to yandex.ru and search for "Шелепень". --] (]) 16:09, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*:::: Okay, "summon" is not the right word. Sorry. "He asked you to come". But that "I am going to be generous" sentence doesn't look polite. --] (]) 16:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*:::: According to , "summon" and "ask to" are the same thing. --] (]) 16:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*:::::@] | |||
| :::*:::::Cambridge Dictionary definition of summon (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/summon) is "to order someone to come to or be present at a particular place, or to officially arrange a meeting of people." | |||
| :::*:::::No-one ORDERED me to take part in this discussion. | |||
| :::*:::::If there is so much significant coverage for these skaters then the simple solution is for you to add it to the articles in question with suitable references and then AFDs will end as keep. | |||
| :::*:::::I am now finished with this discussion and I hope the admins step in and end it soon. | |||
| :::*:::::All the best to everyone involved. ] (]) 16:42, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*:::] wrote the following in his original complaint: ''”…decided to mass-delete articles that don't comply with WP:NSKATE… I am sure most articles he deleted had the right to stay per WP:GNG.”'' I don’t have the ability to “mass-delete” anything, and if most of those articles met ], the users at AFD would have voted to keep them. Just two examples of MC’s falsehoods. ] ] 16:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*::::OK. But you have also mass-prodded articles, that's the same as "deleting". (Like a "delayed deletion".) --] (]) 16:36, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Let me help you out here, Moscow Connection. As it happens, Bgsu98 is a veteran editor with both tens of thousands of edits and a long history of editing skating articles. He is not, as you imply, some bomb thrower hellbent in laying waste to skating articles. Moving right along ...<p>(2) Your curious assertion that he was the first person to AfD no-longer-qualifying skating articles is inaccurate; I did so myself, right after the NSPORTS changes, and I recall several editors also doing so.<p>(3) The Bialas AfDs did not close as Keep, as you wrongly assert. They closed as "no consensus", with almost no participation and multiple relistings; that's ''exactly'' the kind of situation where renomination to seek an actual consensus is appropriate.<p>(4) Rules change on Misplaced Pages, by the bucketload. I have a hard time seeing what is "very unfair" about this, unless "very unfair" is a secret code for "I don't like it, so it's unfair." And ... seriously? You've been on Misplaced Pages for fifteen years, have over sixty thousand edits, have participated in nearly a hundred AfDs? I'd expect this level of confusion from a first-week newbie, not from an editor of your experience. ] 06:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::He only joined in 2021. I've looked at his "Pages Created" count, what he has been doing is creating pages for small figure skating events (for their yearly editions) since late 2023. That's hardly "a long history". --] (]) 15:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::“Small figure skating events” like the National Championships of the U.S., Canada, France, Germany, and Italy; the Grand Prix series, including the Grand Prix Final; and the Challenger Series events? 1) Article Creation isn’t the only metric by which Misplaced Pages contributions can be measured, and 2) Referring to any of those events as “small” is ridiculous and insulting to all parties involved. I should have never even responded yesterday when three different administrators asserted that the original complaint was groundless. I’m done responding to this complainant. ] ] 17:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Given it is acknowledged that large numbers of articles on figure skaters do not meet Misplaced Pages's inclusion criteria ({{tq|What happened is that the notability guidelines for some sportspeople were changed a few years ago. And a large chunk of figure skater articles (most of them, honestly) are now outside of WP:NSKATE.}}), I’m not really seeing anything unexpected here. — | |||
| :] (]) 12:26, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :As someone uninvolved in all of this, I’m reading that OP gets into a dispute about AfDs and then goes to ANI to make their grievances more visible to admins. Does OP not realize that admins are primarily responsible for moderating, closing, and relisting AfD discussions? Also, as someone else pointed above, this is a content dispute: it does not meet the standard for being urgent, chronic, or intractable. OP’s choice to insult another user by calling their behavior “crazy” multiple times is inappropriate and makes me believe that they might have just thrown a ]. ] (]) 14:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :the bar for notability for skaters went up, someone came along and started nominating based on the new guidelines, and OP is upset. that seems to be the gist. i was not involved but didn't that happen in the porno biography area a few years ago? some change raised the bar so a lot of stuff was deleted. ] (]) 16:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I have challenged his claim to be a biochemist, in the 'occupation' section of the infobox . He also says on his : "I'm Olatunde Isaac, a Nigerian ''academic'' and a medical laboratory scientist". Which university does he work at? His states 'Olatunde Olalekan Isaac hasn't uploaded any papers yet'. Are there any papers? An 'academic' technically is employed by or is a fellow of some institution, or at the very least has at least one published paper. | |||
| * I do heavily advise slowing down on the nominations. There is not enough editors in the figure skating topic area to give the appropriate amount of time to search for sources for these articles. To be honest, I'm sure that a good number of ones that were closed as "delete" were actually notable but no one did any in-depth BEFORE search (many would not have coverage in English and the coverage would be in foreign newspaper archives). I asked the user yesterday about the extent of the BEFORE searches and only got "Yes, but not as much as some people like" – and then I asked what search was done for the most recent example, from a few hours prior, and they said they had no recollection (which is concerning IMO, to have no idea what searches you did for an article you nominated a few hours prior). Note that the AFD rationales are often ''really'' poor; many are simply {{tq|Non-notable figure skater}}, which doesn't say much of anything. ] (]) 16:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:I will slow down on nominations and focus on improving other aspects of the the FS articles, such as updating the infoboxes and tables to conform with our MOS. ] ] 17:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::And @], you can help by, when the nomination involves a person whose native language is written in non-Latin characters (e.g., Cyrillic or Hebrew), replying in the AfD with a link to the native language web search for that person to help establish the presence or absence of notability support. — ] ] 17:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::But there are 45 (!) articles nominated for deletion. I looked at the AfD page and understood that it was physically impossible to do anything. So I decided to bring this situation to the attention of the Misplaced Pages community. It is easy to create 1000 AfD nominations with the same rationale ("Non-notable figure skater"), but even these mere 45 AfD nominations utterly scared me and discouraged me from even looking at ]. (I really can't do anything. I have some other articles, the ones I created, that need attention. And I have long "to do" lists that wait for years to be taken care of.) --] (]) 17:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::The answer being, "So?" If neither the article creators nor anyone else has sought to provide ] for these articles -- the Ievleva article, for example, was created '''seventeen years ago''' -- then that just suggests no one's given enough of a damn to bother, and Misplaced Pages will survive these stubs' loss. It is not, nor ever has been, "physically impossible" to do anything about mass deletions; that's ridiculous. An AfD discussion is open for seven days, and it's easy to find adequate sources for an article ... certainly, in the cases of these Russian skaters, for a native speaker of Russian such as yourself. If you can't, the answer isn't that there's some flaw in the process or that Bgsu98 is pulling a fast one on us all. The answer is that the subjects are non-notable, and don't merit Misplaced Pages articles. ] 07:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::: The nominator has agreed to slow down, so the point is kind of moot, but I still wanted to make clear: Ravenswing, 45 AFDs rapidly is ridiculous, especially when next-to-no-BEFORE is done and there previously was no indication of stopping – remember that there's only a few editors in the topic area – ''and'' many of these, which are notable, require more than simple Google searches to find the coverage that demonstrates notability (i.e., for many, the coverage would be in places such as difficult-to-find offline newspapers in foreign languages) – making so many nominations rapidly without appropriate searches will inevitably result in some truly notable ones being deleted due to the lack of effort. While ''you'' may not care about the stubs, others do, and simply because the two editors who drive-by to the nom and say "Delete per above" didn't find coverage absolutely does not equate to the subject being confirmed non-notable. ] (]) 16:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Actually, I have attempted to do something yesterday. I voted and commented on two nominations. ("]" and "]".) Cause these two are Russian figure skaters, and I know they are famous enough. Immediately a user came and wholesale dismissed all the sources I found. I don't really want to play that game, it's too tiresome. I have found another source for Alexandra Ievleva just now. Let's see what the outcome will be.<br />But really, I can't do it anymore. Maybe if these were articles I created, I would invest into searching for sources. Now, I just tried a little bit and saw that some people really want to delete these articles for whatever reason. There are a few people actually searching for sources at some nominations, but mostly it's just that old "you go and provide third-party reliable sources independent of the subject, so I can look at them and dismiss them" game.<br />Okay, people will say I am the bad person here, but I have actually tried to save a couple of articles. I don't understand why people so eagerly want to delete articles than can actually be kept. (Okay, there are mostly interviews and short news about the figure skaters placing here and there or missing some events, but those sources are reliable enough. And one can actually take the sources into account and leave the articles be.)<br />By the way, I have tried searching on what was once ], but the news search doesn't work anymore. (.) There's nothing prior to 2024 when Yandex sold its assets including the news engine. And I can remember when the list of news articles there went back to 2003 or so... --] (]) 23:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::What I’m reading is that you don’t like how AfD works, and there hasn’t been any departure from normal processes. ANI is not the appropriate venue to discuss these issues. ] (]) 10:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I'm sorry if this looks like a ramble. These were initially two or three separate replies. --] (]) 23:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Arbitrary break=== | |||
| {{Od}} ...{{Tpq|editors who believe Misplaced Pages is bloated with biographies of marginally notable athletes}}. Just curious if you or anyone else honestly believes that the opinions of these editors takes priority over the view held in the real world that six million articles falls substantially short of "the sum of all human knowledge". contained the following statement: "According to one estimate, the sum of human knowledge would require 104 million articles". I know some of you are in serious denial and will try to suppress this as a result, but I'm gonna keep saying it anyway. We don't have the sum of all human knowledge, nor are we trying to achieve it. At best, we're the sum of what Google and legacy media has spoon-fed you today within the past X number of years.]/]/] (posted 00:37, January 9, 2025 UTC) | |||
| :RadioKAOS, I'm not going to argue about whose "view takes priority" in the area of the sum of human knowledge but in an AFD discussion, decisions are made by determining the consensus of the editors who bothered to show up and present compelling policy-based arguments. That is typically editors who are active on Misplaced Pages and have an opinion about an article, not any scholar coming up with estimates on the necessary number of articles we should have. How many AFDs do you participate in on a regular basis? And there is no one here that who will attempt to "suppress" your argument. As long as you are not personally attacking any editors, I think you are free to have whatever opinions you do have about this project. No penalty. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:52, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{re|Liz}} The problem is that these editors who "bother to show up" don't equally represent the community. Maybe I'm wrong, but there are some people who are mainly active on AfD and who act as "gatekeepers".<br />A normal editor can easily not notice when a page is nominated for deletion, but the AfD regulars will come and vote "delete".<br />Also, I wonder how it happened that the NSKATE guidelines were changed so drastically. I think I have found a discussion about that but I am not sure. A user who was tired of people voting "keep per ]", proposed to get rid of the "Misplaced Pages:Notability (sports)" completely. And then there was a discussion with around 70 people attending. But for some reason at least some sports got spared the worst fate (or got out intact), while figure skating was "destroyed". Moreover, the ] revision history shows signs of edit warring. So it is just possible that the "deletionists" were the most active/agressive and they won. Some sports wikiprojects defended their sports, and some like WikiProject Figure skating weren't active at the time and didn't do anything. --] (]) 17:50, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::], I guess you can choose to call them "gatekeepers" but I consider them dedicated volunteers. The number of editors who participate in AFDs has declined for at least the past two years, so if you can think of a way to get more editors involved, or if you want to help out by spending, let's say, 10 hours a week evaluating articles and sources in AFD deletion discussions, your help would be welcomed. But don't criticize the editors who actually show up and help. Without them, we would only have the opinions of editors who nominate articles for deletion and I'm sure you wouldn't like it if all of those nominated articles were simpy deleted without any feedback at all from other editors. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 06:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I am not an AfD regular, and what happens there scares me. When I commented, people just bombarded me with "This is not a third-party reliable source independent of the subject", and it didn't look to me like they even knew what "third-party" was. (I could swear my source was third-party and reliable and independent, but they said it was not and bombarded me with some random links to the WP space.) --] (]) 17:50, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I had a look at the AfDs you participated in and I think I can explain why there. In all the links you provided were to sports.ru - these are not independent because sports.ru is the website for the Russian sporting body of whom the subject is a member. They thus don't demonstrate the subject has any independent coverage of their athletic career. I hope this helps. ] (]) 14:02, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::You act like some people on AfD who dismiss sources "for the sake of dismissing". Why did even think it was a website for some "Russian sporting body of whom the subject is a member"? It is just a sports news website (a sports portal) like any other. --] (]) 20:56, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::]. Really, that's quite similar to what happens on AfD. I can go deep into Google Search, spend lots of time, but some people will just say "not third-party" or smth like this. Where do they see that and how do they come to their conclusions? It's a mystery to me. --] (]) 21:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :(nods) Heck, "some authority" came up with canards such as that we all ought to take 10,000 steps a day, drink eight glasses of water a day, and that our basal body temps are all 98.6. I likewise decline to bow before the suspect, threadbare wisdom of "one estimate" that we need 104,000,000 articles ... speaking of serious denial. (grins) ] 07:15, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :: {{re|Ravenswing}}, why are you trying to "repulse" my attemps to save a couple of articles at AfD? First, you came here to defend Bgsu98. And then, you came to the two nominations where I commented, only to wholesale dismiss all the sources I found.<br />And when I found another source, you said that there were "3 sentences" while there were actually 7.<br />I've looked at your contributions, you don't look like someone who can read Russian or has any interest in figure skating. So why are you doing this? (Okay, you can have the articles, you won.) --] (]) 16:49, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Please be careful with the ], Moscow Connection. --] 16:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Okay. --] (]) 17:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::My 2 cents. In my experience, Bgsu clearly does not conduct BEFORE searches (and seems proud of it), ignores actual coverage of the subjects (even when present in the articles), mass nominates batches of articles (50 in 30 minutes is a hilarious example), consistently fails to adhere to AGF, quickly re-nominates articles when the result is not to their liking, inaccurately summarizes examples of SIGCOV when they are provided in discussions, and tops it off by clearing their XfD logs. ] (]) 21:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: That's a significant number of evidence-free aspersions you're casting, would you like to evidence them? Incidentally, mass-nominating articles isn't necessarily an issue; I have done it in the past but I still examined each article before nominating them in one batch. ] 21:33, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I do not wish to dig through hundreds of AfDs, no. Just providing what I've gathered in my experience. And I disagree that 50 AfDs in half an hour is not an issue. | |||
| :::::::Here is one example of the types of responses you can expect to get when you provide SIGCOV in one of his discussions: {{tq|Nobody is going to add anything to this article. The same people pop up on these AFD's, squawk about how someone having their picture taken for their local newspaper qualifies as "significant coverage", and then the article is left in the same crappy condition it was when we started.}} ] (]) 21:40, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::And ] is an example of the nom wholly ignoring GNG and insisting on using deprecated NSPORTS guidelines ''after'' SIGCOV was added to the article. Dozens and dozens of more examples. ] (]) 21:46, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::] example of ignoring SIGCOV ''already present'' in the article. ] (]) 21:53, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::{{Ping|GiantSnowman}} {{Ping|Black Kite}} ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] more examples, all within a week of eachother and many with SIGCOV already present in the article. ] (]) 21:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::] is an example from two days ago where they nominated a skater who finished top 4 at the World Championships because they assumed the sources in the article were the only sources available on the subject. ] (]) 22:00, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::OK this AFD, coupled with the historical ones, is very concerning. I understand that not every editor is going to be able to find every source, but it appears that Bgsu98 does not even bother looking. I would support a topic ban from AFDs. ]] 22:03, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::] and ] is an example of four users expressing their concerns about BEFORE searches and their misunderstanding of notability policies. More recently, concerns were raised ] and , although bgsu deleted the latter from their talk page with the message {{tq|Stay off my talk page. You have some nerve using the term “good will” considering your appalling behavior.}} ] (]) 22:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::And here are ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] examples of nom ignoring the concept of GNG and/or entirely disregarding SIGCOV already present in the article. As Liz notes ], close to 100 articles were deleted through PROD before I was able to contest them. Many of these that I contested and were later kept in AfDs with clear GNG passes are present among the examples I've given. ] (]) 22:19, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::Thanks - anything more recent than May 2024? ]] 22:02, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::It would be helpful if you could provide some examples of a) a number of nominations in a short period of time and b) several AFDs where the rationale is deeply flawed. ]] 21:53, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::: If you go to 10 May 2024 , you get exactly '''50''' nominations in 30 minutes. A good number of those were kept per . ] (]) 22:03, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::Great, thanks - see above, I think we need an AFD topic ban. ]] 22:04, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Well, let's start with that I'm a frequent participant at ANI, and I no more "came here to defend" anyone than any other editor who's chimed in here. I dismissed those sources wholesale because I burned some time to look over each and every one of them (as did more than one editor), and found that ] provided the "significant coverage" in detail to the subjects that the GNG requires. As it happens, I have edited skating articles in the past -- you're not claiming to have truly gone through my whole twenty-year contribution history, are you?<p>So why am I doing this? Perhaps it's strange to you that anyone could act out of a dispassionate wish to uphold Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, instead of out of partisan motives, but you'll find that most ANI regulars do just that. ] 21:18, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I've participated in a lot of these AfDs, I believe mostly !voting delete, and I've gotta say I am not happy to see it implied that AfD participants were blindly going along with Bgsu. I guarantee that I perform thorough searches on every single AfD I !vote it, ''especially'' these mass-noms with essentially no rationale. Bgsu's noms are, for better or worse, fairly accurate and generally result in the deletion of articles that should be deleted. ''However'', I have seen several examples of incivility and assuming bad faith from this user (although I have experienced neither myself) and I agree that the sheer quantity of nominations does not promote a healthy level of community input. The individual noms are generally okay, but mass noms like ], tried participating in, and gave up on can be a little overwhelming. I doubt this merits any sanctions, but maybe a ratelimit on AfD noms (20 per day?) is called for. ] </span>]] 22:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:I did say a few days ago I wasn't going to engage in this discussion any further but since I keep getting notifications about it I figured I'd weigh in as the conversation seems to have gone in a totally different direction. As @] and others have pointed out I too am not happy that it is being implied that people who voted in these AFDs are blindly following @] without doing any independent research. I refuted this on the figure skating talk page when this all started and on this page. Also, as has been previously pointed out by other editors, this particular discussion began with @] basically not liking the rules on significant coverage and then coming to this forum to seek retribution against @]. Now it seems that their improper use of this forum, ref bombing of articles and general complaining that they don't like something and how unfair it is in their opinion, may actually lead to them getting what they want. This sets a very poor precedent that if you don't like something on Misplaced Pages and you jump up and down and wail about it enough you can get your way. Yes @] probably nominates too many similar articles at one time but they have agreed to slow down now, and yes they have nominated articles for AFD that have then been kept because significant coverage was found, but they have also nominated a lot of articles which have not been found to have significant coverage and have subsequently been deleted following the due, consensus based procedure and closed as such by an admin. @] is already seeking to have articles which have been deleted following AFDs unilaterally reopened. If you now sanction @] we may as well just give Jimmy Wales a call and ask him to hand over Misplaced Pages to the whims and wants of @] ] (]) 23:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*I haven't asked anybody to give Misplaced Pages over to me. What do you mean by "unilaterally reopened"? If you are refering to me asking {{u|Star Mississippi}} to undelete the "]" article, what's wrong with it? It was deleted without a proper Google search, and I have found some sources for her. Just look at ]. At the very end, a user that goes by the name of {{u|Kvng}}, noticed: {{tq|No one in this discussion (including myself) has mentioned anything about searching for coverage that may satisfy WP:GNG}}, but that was all, no one did anything. You and another user seem to have claimed here that you do a proper search on every Bgsu98's nomination, but I don't see you on that AfD page.<br />You really sound like you think I'm doing something awful in my attempt to rescue an article. Come on, she's not someone terrible who wants to promote herself on Misplaced Pages or something. She's just a fairly famous figure skater. You don't need to defend Misplaced Pages from her. --] (]) 00:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*I've decided to save "]" (]) and I've already found a couple of dozen articles talking about her. Yes, maybe the others will say those are mostly interviews and the Women's Sport website is not good enough, but I have found lots and lots about her! I don't think you or Bgsu98 would be able to do that cause you don't read Russian and don't know how to search (I tried to add different additional key words, and every time I found something new). --] (]) 00:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:1 you don't know if I read Russian, Chinese, Martian or what, 2 now you say I "don't know how to search" which is yet another unfounded suggestion that I don't make any effort before giving opinions on AFDs, 3 you don't know what searches were done on Lilia Biktagirova and neither do I, 4 I wasn't involved in that discussion and I try to focus more on adding to articles then deleting them, 5 my point was, and is, you don't like the rules so you have launched a campaign of complaining to try to get your way instead of going through the proper channels and seeking to get consensus to alter said rules. Frankly I'm tired of this and of you belittling everyone else as if you are the only person who knows what is right and are somehow able to read the minds and intentions of everyone else. Go ahead and, as you put it, "save" your Russian skaters. I genuinely hope you do and that the articles are filled with interesting and well-sourced information. That's the aim of Misplaced Pages to inform the population about things worth knowing. ] (]) 00:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:*"{{tq|You don't know if I read Russian, Chinese, Martian or what}}"<br />— What I do is called ]. What you just did by claiming you can read Martian, I honestly don't know.<br />I've started this discussion because I saw the user's 45 nominations at ] and that scared me a lot. --] (]) 01:00, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:*:It's called ironic humour and, with everything going on in the world right now, if a Misplaced Pages AFD scared you a lot then you are obviously in the very fortunate position to have so few worries. Anyway I'm moving on to spend my time more productively. I sincerely wish you the best in your endeavours. ] (]) 01:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **I appreciate your input and insight. As I told ] earlier, I promised to slow down on nominations, and in fact, I had decided that I wouldn't even entertain the idea of additional nominations until the ones already in the system work their way through.<br>I can also promise to strive to be more thorough in researching these potential nominations and provide more detailed rationales in the future. I am also fine with any limitations that the community requests in terms of numbers of nominations. Twenty per day seems awfully high; I was thinking more like two! ] ] 23:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **:Sorry, Bgsu, I completely missed that you had committed to slowing down. I think that's a great idea that resolves the issue here. Just remember, when you get frustrated by other editors, do your best to stay polite – if you can't, simply step away from the keyboard for a moment. I don't want to see you get in trouble for one too many snarky comments. ] </span>]] 09:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **20 nominations per day is 7300 per year. The limit should be more like 0. (And if it is decided to be 1 or something like that, Bgsu98 will have to demonstrate that he has searched for sources every time. I prefer 0, naturally.) --] (]) 00:16, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **:A limit of 0 is asinine, and I highly suggest you strike this comment. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 18:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **::Yeah, agreed - really not helping move away from the comments above the MC is here because they don't like AFD. ]] 18:57, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:While I do not know whether @] should be restricted from AfD as I haven't been able to go into the weeds on this, I disagree with {{tq|I doubt this merits any sanctions, but maybe a ratelimit on AfD noms (20 per day?) is called for.}} @]. No editor should be nominating 20 articles per day. That's unsustainable for AfD participants, clerks or closers. We do not have the editor volume to assess that many nominations from one nominator. ] ] 00:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::20 per day is a lot, but given the numbers thrown around above (50 in 30 minutes) I figured it would be a massive improvement. But since Bgsu has committed to nominating ''far'' fewer articles with {{tq|Twenty per day seems awfully high; I was thinking more like two!}} I suppose the whole discussion is moot. ] </span>]] 11:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I don't think it's that easy. The question is who will check all the hundreds or thousands of his previous nominations. Definitely not me. (I've looked through several active ones, found some sources, commented here and there, and got very tired.)<br />As I have commented below, when problems were found with {{u|Sander.v.Ginkel}}'s articles, he was told to go through all his articles and check them. (Actually, there was a user who volunteered to help, but that user was revealed to be Sander.v.Ginkel himself, cause no one in their right mind would have volunteered to check 40000 articles. I, personally, don't want to be a slave and don't want to check Bgsu98's past nominations, especially knowing how little effort he put into creating them and that I would have to spend years looking for sources.) --] (]) 11:29, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::It's a volunteer project. Someone may choose to, as you did initially, or no one will. But unless they're salted, there's nothing prohibiting restoration to drafts if ] can be found. We can fix going forward but can't always fix what happened before even when there's a collaborative effort. ] ] 13:40, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Of note. User JTtheOG is canvassing apparent like-minded editors to this discussion, and . ] (]) 23:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:They are not like-minded actually. In fact, both had previously expressed they disagreed with my initial assertions, which I had not yet provided evidence for. I was notifying them of examples being provided here of previously unsubstantiated aspersions. ] (]) 23:44, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::"As per previous discussions..." I love hearing that ] is having discussions about me with other users, but has never once attempted to communicate directly to me. (Snide comments in AFD's don't count as broaching conversation.) ] ] 00:11, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ** If even that's true, no none came. (No one of the whole two.) And Bgsu98 did the same by pinging his like-minded AfD colleague. (He pinged him immediately.) --] (]) 00:21, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * As a fellow ] participant, and without having gone over the particular cases, I am normally a rather deletion-oriented editor but am an inclusionist for skating specifically as sources are not as online on this topic as usual, and often in foreign languages, so I am not usually in favor of deleting a skater's article unless we really do exhaust all possible sources of notability. I do request that {{ping|Bgsu98}} convene a broader discussion over notability as I also do disagree with the current guidelines, but even without that a discussion is warranted. Even if a mass deletion ''is'' warranted, it should be handled in one mass AfD, not a gazillion separate ones.--] ] 01:11, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I came across this randomly in my watchlist.. can I recommend ''everyone'' take a step back and focus on the issue at hand? Currently, ] states the following: {{tq|Search for additional sources, if the main concern is notability: The minimum search expected is a normal Google search, a Google Books search, a Google News search, and a Google News archive search; Google Scholar is suggested for academic subjects.}} So, I'd ask {{ping|Moscow Connection}} to please consider whether their views on BEFORE are in line with what it actually says. I appreciate that MC states many of these nominated articles are for non-English speaking and in some cases non-Western world skaters, and so it may not be possible to find many of the potential sources in an English language Google search.{{pb}}But MC, can you identify any deletion nominations for which there were sources that could be found in any of the following: ''a normal Google search'', or a ''Google Books search'', or a ''Google News search'', or a ''Google News archive search''? If you can identify such, please provide the deletion discussion, and a link or other method of showing us how you came across the sources on one of those searches. If you can't, then it sounds like your argument is more for '''expanding ] to require non-English language searches for non-English subjects'''. I take no strong view on whether it would be a good idea - I think that BEFORE should certainly ''recommend'' more far reaching searches for subjects who may not be satisfied by a Google search.. but ''required''? Not everyone knows how to use other search engines, and they may not even know what terms to use (or be able to type them easily). And that doesn't even begin to touch the big problem with Google - Google results (if you're logged in, at least), are '''significantly''' based on your search history, and if you use Google Chrome browser (on mobile or PC), or the Android OS, they are also based on your usage of those platforms (such as websites visited, apps used, etc). So it's entirely possible that MC searching Google may see a result on the first page or two that someone else searching Google would not have seen on the first couple pages at all.{{pb}}Regardless, that's an argument/discussion to be had on another page (likely ]). Since this all seems to be a misconstruing of BEFORE by MC, and assuming everyone involved tones down the rhetoric, I'd recommend this move towards a reminder to MC that BEFORE, as it stands now, does '''not''' require anything beyond a Google (and Google News and Google Books) to be searched, and until that changes, the mere fact sources exist on other search engines does not constitute a violation of BEFORE unless there is evidence they would've been found through those search means. And I recommend that MC (or anyone, really) starts a discussion ''at the appropriate place'' if they think changes to BEFORE are necessary. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | ] | ] 01:20, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ** I read this and tried to search some names from AfD on Google Books. A search for ]'s name definitely returns something non-trivial: ("Nicole Nönnig kehrte allerdings nach kurzer Pause zurück . Mit Matthias Bleyer bildete sie ein Paar , das 2003 sogar internationale Wettbewerbe bestritt . Die Schlittschuhe haben Nicole und Matthias inzwischen jedoch an den Nagel ..."). --] (]) 01:36, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **:I'll leave this to others to discuss, but this is the type of "evidence" you would be expected to produce to show that the user did not comply with BEFORE. That said, one instance of mention in a book does not meet ], so unless you can show that there are ''multiple'' instances of ''significant'' coverage in reliable sources that would've been found on a BEFORE, then it still doesn't mean that the user did not do a valid BEFORE. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | ] | ] 01:41, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **:: Here's a link to the book: . (I've tried and tried, but I don't know how to add "bks" to the Google Books search URL.) --] (]) 01:45, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **:: A search for "李宣潼" on Google News returned this article: and a couple more. The one I linked looks very solid, it is a full-fledged biography. (The AfD discussion is here: ]. As usual, the rationale is: {{tq|Non-notable figure skater; no senior-level medal placements.}}) --] (]) 02:13, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **:: And one more article → about Li Xuantong and her partner ] (also nominated for deletion by Bgsu98). It's like a print magazine article + interview, looks "massive". --] (]) 02:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **:: Another example: ].<br />A simple Google News search for "김유재 2009" returns a lot. I didn't look too far, but I found two lengthy articles about her and her twin sister on the first page (, ) and voted "keep".<br />(I would also note that there are already some AfD regulars present in that discussion. But no one has googled her name.) --] (]) 03:59, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **:: OMG, Bgsu98 nominated her sister for deletion, too: ]. He nominated her on January 1, and no one has commented since. (Okay, I'll vote now and save her.) --] (]) 04:03, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **:::You ''do'' realize there’s a difference between an article about a person and the person themselves? You’re not saving anyone here. You are a volunteer Misplaced Pages editor, not a volunteer firefighter. ] (]) 06:21, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **::::{{re|HyperAccelerated}} Did it sound strange or silly? Sure, I understand the difference. But people do say "article's notability" when it's actually "the notability of an article's subject". I thought that an article and its subject are interchangeable in colloquial wikispeech. --] (]) 06:29, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I know the entire thing is a bit of a long read, but I would like to note that Bgsu98's tendency to make XFDs without any regard for GNG/BASIC - even for those where GNG/BASIC is met (], ], ]) - dates back to ]. In fact, last year ] (which they then deleted) that this issue was creating more work for editors, but this is still continuing as of late. There seems to be an IDHT issue with ]. ]@] 02:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Alright, trying to defuse the situation more. {{ping|Bgsu98}} It appears that MC has been able to provide at least two examples for which there are ''multiple'' examples of potentially significant coverage in reliable sources independent of the subject. And another user has identified at least 3 other AfDs in which sources were quickly found by other users. Yes, some of them (such as MC's examples) were found by Google searching the non-Latin alphabet version of the subject's name, but nothing in BEFORE suggests that searching only the subject's Latin name is appropriate. And it appears that these sources are all found with a quick Google search of the subject's name in the non-Latin script. Can you explain why you did not find these sources, or why, if you did find these sources, you did not identify them at the AfD discussion and/or did not consider them sufficient for GNG? -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | ] | ] 04:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::What do you think of the limitations on nominating articles that ] already stated they were willing to adopt? It's higher up in this discussion. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:17, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I spent a good 30-45 minutes reading this discussion before I made my first comment attempting to defuse this. I do not think that a voluntary restriction is going to be a good thing here, unless it is given the enforceability that a consensus here can give. I initially was concerned that EC was making this report with a poor understanding of BEFORE. But given that EC (and another editor) has/have now provided multiple examples of Google searches that show, at least at first glance, one or more sources that meet GNG for their related articles, I think there is ample evidence that Bgsu98 is violating BEFORE. I don't particularly care ''why'' they're violating BEFORE, but I would support waiting for their explanation regardless.{{pb}}If Bgsu98 is unable to provide any legitimate explanation for the at least 3 cases that have been identified now as having clear sources in the searches required by BEFORE, I would support a restriction on nominating articles for deletion in any way (PROD or AfD, or otherwise) since they cannot be trusted to follow BEFORE before they do so.{{pb}}All of that said, I think this should be moved to a subsection - starting with EC and Miraclepine's reports of specific cases. I stepped in as what you may call an inclusionist, thinking I'd be in support of sanctions immediately, but this is a complicated situation, and to be blunt, everything above my comment seems to have led nowhere. At the same time, I support giving Bgsu98 a chance to respond explaining why their BEFORE search was sufficient, before any sanctions are issued. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | ] | ] 05:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I've provided some 20 examples as well. ] (]) 05:36, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I would say: "Not before Bgsu98 goes through all his previous nominations and his PRODs and searches for sources for them." He probably deleted (okay, "nominated") hundreds of pages, he did enough damage and now should work on fixing it. --] (]) 05:43, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::That's not too helpful right now, man. No one can be forced to do anything. ] (]) 07:38, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I don't propose to force anyone. But I have just came across a ] and remembered how he was told to go through all the articles he had created and check/fix them before creating more. We have a similar situation here, I think. --] (]) 07:45, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Articles that should not have been deleted have been kept by consensus at AfD. This is how AfD works. They are in the exact same state that they were before they were nominated, perhaps even better by ]. No “damage” has occurred. Additionally, if you think an article has been deleted when it shouldn’t, it is ''your'' responsibility to bring your concerns to DRV. This does not change just because you made a thread at ANI. You do not get to pick and choose which policies apply to whom. ] (]) 18:12, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Bgsu has already agreed to limit their nominations to a couple a day. This is a far stricter constraint than what could have probably been reached by consensus. What more do you want? For reasons I don’t understand, your response to this is “the limit should be more like 0” without any grounding in policy. As I see it, Bgsu is plainly negotiating in good faith, while your behavior is bordering on bullying. ] (]) 18:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::@] has hit the nail on the head. This discussion should have been tossed immediately or at least closed down well before now. The early responses were that this was a content dispute not appropriate for ANI then the OP kept going with rapid fire posts and a few editors who appear to have a pre-existing axe to grind with @] revved it up into what it has become. As a side note it will be very interesting to see how the outstanding AFDs are adjudicated and by whom. ] (]) 18:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{OD}} | |||
| *'''Oppose any sanctions''' to Bgsu98. I did a spot-check of some of the more contentious AfDs and, honestly, the keep !votes did not provide a compelling argument to keep in any of those cases. As I mentioned to {{U|Moscow Connection}} above, for example, they provided six links to one of the subjects - and every single link was in the sports.ru domain which is not independent and does not establish notability for a Russian athlete. It's very unfortunate that so many editors here have expressed either distain for or fear of the AfD process, which is integral to the quality of this project and which I would heartily encourage more editors to participate in. And I can assure those people with misconceptions that many AfDs conclude with an article being kept or with no consensus - which is a de-facto keep. The sum of all human knowledge is a lofty goal. But one philosophical point I would ask extreme inclusionists to consider is that there is a difference between knowledge and data. AfD is a process whereby we distinguish between knowledge and data according to criteria - imperfect criteria surely but criteria - which we agreed to as participants in this project. We shouldn't be punishing a person for efficiently doing a hard job just because it's one that has a side-effect of upsetting people. ] (]) 19:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:In case it was not already clear I too '''Oppose''' sanctions against @]. They should be given the chance to prove they will stick to their pledge to slow down on AFD nominations. Also sanctioning them will set a precedent for others who are unhappy with AFD proceeses and outcomes to seek similar sanctions against other nominators and could well have the effect of putting many people off participating in the process for fear of retribution when in fact it would be better if more people took part. ] (]) 20:12, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::Whereas I '''support''' some kind of restriction on the number of AFDs they can start per day. ]] 20:16, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I offered up self-imposed restrictions above, including the caveat that there would be no further skating nominations until the ones currently in the system work their way through. According to ], my last nomination was January 7th. As more contentious AFD's can sometimes take up to a month to process, that should allow for sufficient time. ] ] 20:33, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::To be fair, your log is regularly cleared, including your ]. ] (]) 20:58, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::Once an AFD is settled, I remove it. What's the problem? The log shows active AFD's only. ] ] 21:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * How about ] just agrees to not nominate more than, I don't know, two articles per day (based on their comment {{tq|I am also fine with any limitations that the community requests in terms of numbers of nominations. Twenty per day seems awfully high; I was thinking more like two!}}) and we end the discussion? ] (]) 21:02, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:@] I second this proposal. ] (]) 21:20, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::We should definitely end it. I'm not an admin but that seems more than fair. ] (]) 21:46, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Two a day is fine by me. ]] 22:15, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ** I think there should be a requirement for him to show some sources he has found. (In every nomination. If there aren't any, then a link to a Google search query can suffice.)<br />Cause I've seen him lately on some figure skater articles in my watchlist, and I don't see him adding any references ever. It looks like his edits are purely technical. (As well as his nominations.) He doesn't really add to the encyclopedic content, just updates scores and changes the table formatting. (And nominates for deletion.)<br />Does he ever search the net? That's the question. Has it happened even once that he wanted to delete an article and then found a source for it, added the source and went away? --] (]) 21:29, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **:Wow. Mister "I would also like to note that I am polite" is again denigrating others' work, as if adding scores and formatting tables to meet Misplaced Pages's MOS is unimportant. "He doesn't really add to the encyclopedic content." Yep, very polite. ] ] 22:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *: And, as I've said, one should also search in the skater's native language. And for Russian figure skaters, Google doesn't work, you need Yandex. (And Yandex is not good as a search engine, some effort is needed to find anything. The major sports websites have profiles for everyone, you need to find the needed profile and go from there. It sounds too complicated, but that's how it is.) --] (]) 21:30, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ** Also, he doesn't appear to know how to use the ]. The ] article had a good reference, I found it in the archive. His nomination (]) doesn't mention the reference, like if it doesn't exist. Maybe he didn't even look at the references section. --] (]) 22:10, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ** What I mean is that he should be required to show some sources he has found and to explain why these sources do not suffice. (After all, if he nominates an article, then obviously he doesn't find the coverage sufficient.)<br />There's always something. (Almost always.) But since he nominates mostly skaters who have finished their careers, the number of potential sources (news articles) found on the internet shouldn't be big. There are usually just a few. --] (]) 22:10, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == User:Smm380 and logged out editing == | |||
| This raises a number of interesting issues. Is it OK on Misplaced Pages to say you are an academic, or a scientist, given that ]. Or is it a form of identity fraud, designed to improve one's standing or authority in the wiki world? Is it OK to claim invasion of privacy, even when you have written an article about yourself? Or is he saying that he has nothing to do with the subject of the article, and is not writing about himself? E.g. he claims that he has nothing to do with the subject of the article. he claims that olatunde olalekan and Olatunde Isaac are two different people. "One is a notable biochemist from Nigeria(I mean Olatunde Isaac) who was known for dacryodes edulis. Olatunde olalekan is a non notable researcher". | |||
| *{{userlinks|Smm380}} | |||
| *{{IPlinks|195.238.112.0/20}} | |||
| I have this editor twice about logged out editing because they are evidently editing the article ] both logged in and as an IP. This makes tracking their edits more difficult since they have made hundreds altogether in recent months (and they are only focused on this specific article). The IP edits seem to come from ] (at least most of them) and they are often made shortly before/after Smm380 decides to log back in. See for example edit by Smm380 and edit by the IP a few minutes later regarding the same section. This is now especially a problem because they are deciding to make as an IP. | |||
| In general, they have not listened to prior warnings. I have given them multiple warnings about adding unsourced text, but they are still continuing to unsourced text without including citations first. But they have not responded to any of my warnings or explained why they are still doing this. ] (]) 09:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{u|MichaelQSchmidt}} has argued ], however I can't see it is a clean start, given he has repeated exactly the behaviour we saw before, namely trying to publish an article about himself on Misplaced Pages, by creating a whole host of stubs, or adding material of dubious quality, ingratiating himself with the WMF in an attempt to acquire notability. We had a similar case with ], of course. ] (]) 07:45, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :I noticed the concerns raised regarding edits made both from my account and an IP address, and I’d like to clarify that this was neither intentional nor malicious. I simply forgot to log into my account while making those edits. | |||
| *'''Note''': What I wrote at that discussion about way-earlier poor edits only alluded to above was "Sadly, many newcomers do similar.. some from angst.. some from inexperience. For those who accept it as a learning experience and apologize and promise to not repeat those earlier errors in understanding, what is hurt by ] and allowing a ]?" That said, I see no "legal threat" in the linked quote, and simply an editor understandably worrying over "unauthorized disclosure of my personal information" shows '''A)''' a natural unhappiness about a perceived threat of ] and '''B)''' unhappiness with your continued digging and chiding over the closed issue of his earlier inexperienced editing. ] is applicable here. ''']''' '']'' 08:10, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :I apologize if this caused any confusion. My sole intention was to improve content related to Ukrainian history, a topic I am deeply passionate about. | |||
| **"This is a young man who made a mistake. In the grand scheme of things what he did was pretty minor. Having a pseudonym, and - sort of - fleshing it out with some (pauses, waves hands) traits - that's really no big deal, I mean, that's part of online life. " That sort of thing, yes? ] (]) 08:22, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :Regarding the delayed response to your messages, I sincerely apologize. I hadn’t noticed the notifications until recently, as I was unfamiliar with how Misplaced Pages’s messaging system works. Now that I understand it better, I’ll ensure to respond more promptly in the future. | |||
| **And it's not STICK. There are two important principles involved here. (1) Is it OK to challenge someone representing the WMF, on whether their claimed academic credentials are genuine. (2) If someone writes an article about themselves, claiming that they are a scientist or a doctor or distinguished lawyer, can they claim invasion of privacy, even though they are the subject of the article itself? ] (]) 08:33, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :I truly appreciate the valuable work you do to maintain the quality and reliability of Misplaced Pages. I will make sure to contribute responsibly and stay logged in during my future edits. ] (]) 16:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::That's where you got it completely wrong. Firstly I'm not in anyway a representative of the Wikimedia Foundation. I'm a volunter like anyone here. Secondly, writing about oneself is not forbidden. See ], where there is a notice that I'm a Wikipedian with article. ]<sup>]</sup> 08:48, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I imagine {{u|MichaelQSchmidt}} knows about clean starts. ] (]) | |||
| :::::For that matter and I can't see what relevance either has on two editors in good standing. Casting dirt like this just makes you look a bit of a shit and suggests that you don't really have a case and are casting dirt around instead in the hope that it will stick somewhere. Not cool Peter, not cool. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 13:38, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::The difference is, unlike other people, that I have never written an article about myself with the help of an army of socks. Nor have I ever lied about a sock. Nor have I claimed academic credentials, or an occupation I did not have. My two points above remain. Not cool, Spartaz. ] (]) 13:53, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *{{Comment}} Firstly, I never made any legal threat. I was only trying to explain to him why it is inappropriate to intrude into ones privacy. This editor is looking for thousands of ways to embarrass me. This is against the spirit of collaboration. I have tried all I could to avoid any conflict with this editor but It seemed to me that conflict is their hobby. I had tried all I could to explain to this editor while some things happened in my earliest time on Misplaced Pages. I'm a bit disturbed by this editor's behavior here on Misplaced Pages. A quick shows that he only made 4934 edit counts in his 12 years of being on Misplaced Pages. Out of the 4934 edits, only 18% where made to main space, 18.98 to userpage and 31.73 to User talk pages where he moves around to attack other editors, engaging in unnecessary arguments. This is odd to me!. Yes, about two years ago, I had a ], trying to write about myself without prior knowledge of what Misplaced Pages is all about. Then, this led me to create multiple account to write on the same topic with the believe that an article about me will stay. Few days later I knew about WP:Sock Puppetry as a policy and the implication of engaging it, I told RHaworth about the accounts and my new account, ''Wikicology''. RHaworth decided not to block me after I told him that I will continue to contribute constructively. In fact, that was when I know that a subject must pass WP:GNG or other criteria to be included on Misplaced Pages. Since then, I have been contributing significantly to the project both online and offline which made me to gain media attention in my country, Nigeria for my tireless contributions to Misplaced Pages. We normally see all manners of disruptive behavior from new editor. This particular one is a typical example of what we normally experience when new editors join Misplaced Pages especially those that aren't the product of Misplaced Pages Workshops/training. Some of this editors later get it right and they remain a long-term and valuable editors. Misplaced Pages is complex, and it's often difficult for new editors to understand how the encyclopedia works. They have no idea of the basic policies and guideline, WP:GNG, WP:CV, WP:BLP and what count as WP:RS. Some of them have not even heard of the word "Sock puppetry" and any other related terms. They usually think Misplaced Pages is like a social media where anything goes. Hence, they unknowingly get themselves in all manners of troubles and some of them get blocked or Ban. What this editor pointed out is the oldest history of a now experienced editor who has now grown to be an asset to the community. The then, new editor is now a major contributor of Nigeria related articles to Misplaced Pages. In addition to creating over 500 articles on the English wikipedia with GA and bunch of DYK, he has recruited several Wikimedians for the Wikimedia Foundation through series of workshops/training organized by him in Nigeria, a country where there are low number of people contributing to Wikimedia Project. He served as member of the Individual Engagement Grant Committee as a volunteer and was twice a grantee of the WMF. The then, non-notable "Olatunde Isaac" is now notable. I achieve this notability as a result of my tireless contributions to Misplaced Pages. I will also like to mention that I didn't just jumped into creating the article. I consulted {{u|Nikkimaria|Nikki Maria}} and {{u|MichaelQSchmidt}} who advised me to write it in my sandbox which I did and MichaelQSchmidt help to move it to mainspace. I don't know Peter's motive behind this dead issue perhaps he felt I'm against "WikiProject Accuracy" conceptualized by {{u|Atsme}} and decided to embarrass me. However, Peter fail to understand that those accounts were blocked to ]. The accounts were blocked because they were used inappropriately to create article about a non-notable person. When ''Wikicology'' was created, it was ] (one of the blocking admin) on his talk where Peter found it like anybody el. RHaworth allowed me to continue editing since I had promised not to be involve in such a nonsensical exercise and will always make good contributions on wikipedia. Per my personal information, I'm a volunteer and not a paid Wikimedia Foundation staff. I'm never under any obligation to declare my identity on Misplaced Pages. Today, I can call myself a "Dog" and tomorrow, I can say I'm "human". It is not a business of any editor. Identity verification is only required if I wish to become a WMF paid staff, ] or ]. However, if I choose to become one, I will send it to WMF through a private channel, and it will be destroyed upon receipt & verification and will not be shared with anyone outside the Wikimedia Foundation. Peter started bringing my personal information to wikipedia without any authorization to do so, which I considered a ]. The growth of Misplaced Pages is declining because of attitude like this. How on earth will I make legal threat? Perhaps he taught I'm going to fill a suit against him for invasion of privacy. I can never fill a suit against a fellow Wikipedian. Over my dead body! ]<sup>]</sup> 08:48, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| == Another not here IP == | |||
| *'''Clear legal threat, but''' there seems to be some background here that requires further investigation, as part of a ] analysis, particularly given there seem to be claims of ]-like violations... which in my view would be a mitigating circumstance for what we normally consider indef-worthy behavior. Additionally, Wikicology's response above can also be read as disavowing a legal threat... which would help get us out of ] territory, but not necessarily out of disruptive incivility territory. Telling someone that something they're doing on-wiki is legally harms you or gives you a cause of action against that person in a post intended to cause that person to stop whatever they were doing that you believe is legally harming your or gave rise to that cause of action is the very definition of a legal threat. Legal threats need not take the form of "I am going to sue you" or "I am strongly considering suing you." —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 09:50, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=Blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 03:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| **To put my analysis more simply: The following sort of statement is a legal threat: "You are doing ''x''. By doing ''x'' you are harming my ''y'' rights. Harming someone's ''y'' rights is grounds for a lawsuit." If you say that A implies B, B implies C, and A is true, then you're also saying B and C are true. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 09:57, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| {{User|2601:18C:8183:D410:1D8C:39C9:DCEE:1166}} is altering another users posts to insert political commentary ] as well as making PA's, with a clear statement they do not intend to stop ], and edit warring over it as well. ] (]) 14:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{U|Mendaliv}}; thank you so much for your comment. I didn't mean it the way it was interpreted. Like I said, I can not fill a suit against a fellow Misplaced Pages and I'm not threatening to do so. Cheers! ]<sup>]</sup> 10:48, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{u|Mendaliv}} I think you need to look carefully at the 'outing' claim. As I mention above, {{u|Wikicology}} has written an article about himself (]), where he claims to be a biochemist. If I then ask about his credentials as a practising biochemist, ''qua'' subject of article, is that outing? Common sense suggests not. ] (]) 10:18, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Firstly, you have no right whatsoever to ask me my credential as a practicing biochemist. Do I came to you for employment? Secondly, show me the policy that says that editors should be punished for writing or editing contents about themselves. Lastly, This is a clear case of ]. per ], posting another editor's personal information is harassment, unless that person had voluntarily posted his or her own information, or links to such information, on Misplaced Pages. Personal information includes legal name, date of birth, identification numbers, home or workplace address, job title and work organisation, telephone number, email address, other contact information, or photograph, whether any such information is accurate or not. Posting such information about another editor is an unjustifiable and uninvited invasion of privacy. ]<sup>]</sup> 10:48, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::But I DO have a right to ask for evidence that ] is a practising biochemist. Are you familiar with the WP policies on reliable sources? Where, as author of the article, is your evidence that Olatunde Isaac is a practising biochemist? It's really simple, right? ] (]) 10:55, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Anything you wish to know about ] is already on the article. Every claims in the article are supported by ] and if you find any unsourced claim, you're free to remove it. What you're saying is like asking ] to upload his credential or send them to you to verify his academic background. This attitude is disruptive and unacceptable. Misplaced Pages doesn't require any editor to request for other editors or subject of an article's personal information. ]<sup>]</sup> 11:32, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::] says "Writing an autobiography on Misplaced Pages '''is an example of conflict of interest editing and is strongly discouraged'''. Editing a biography about yourself is acceptable '''only''' if you are removing unambiguous vandalism or clear-cut and serious violations of our biography of living persons policy". Can I ask if you are the same person as ] ? ] (]) 11:01, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Strongly '''discouraged''' not '''forbidden''' and not a '''Criminal offense''''. Why not stop User:Jimbo Wales from editing ] or tag his article with COI template.? ]<sup>]</sup> 11:32, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::] does nothing to help this case, and, as far as a cursory inspection goes, ] has the good sense not to edit that article. Oh, and... We don't do ''"criminal offences"'' here. ] (]) 11:54, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Wikicology uses hos personal page as a sort of "Wikimedia CV". I guess that's OK, it's Misplaced Pages related. But asking you to back up the claims you do there seems perfectly fine. Or in short, if you claim to be a practicing biologist, I see no problem in asking you for your credentials. If you aren't willing to provide them, then you should not make the claim. Especially since it in the Misplaced Pages context is completely irrelevant. --] (]) 11:28, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::{{ping|OpenFuture}} If Wikicology states he's a biologist on his user page, ''why'' would he have to "back that up"...? Numerous editors here state tidbits of personal info about themselves on their userpages, often by way of ''']'''. Are you saying that everyone ''must prove'' this info? That's just silly. What if they don't? Must it be removed? Should they be blocked? Do have a policy to cite in support of this? Because afaic ] applies here. If he says he says he's biologist, than just accept it. There is no reason to doubt it, and there is no reason to question it in the first place. - '']'' 20:11, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::: User:Essjay stated he was a Professor of Theology on his user page. That did not end well, and it says much for assuming 'good faith'. ] (]) 20:18, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::Your point being...? - '']'' 21:17, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::{{U|Peter Damian}}; with all sense of humility, I doubt if you understand the difference between a paid staff and a volunteer Wikipedian. Essjay stated that on his user page and on MEDIA. In addition, he his a paid WMF staff, oversight, checkuser and bureaucrat thus he was expected to reveal his identity. That's not the case here. I'm neither a paid WMF staff, nor oversight, or checkuser and bureaucrat. I'm a volunteer like you and anyone around. If I may ask, when did personal identity disclosure becomes a criteria to edit Misplaced Pages as a volunteer? Point me to that policy. ]<sup>]</sup> 22:03, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::You're misinformed, {{u|Wikicology}}. Essjay was a volunteer, too. And he made statements in the media, just like you do. Can we agree that misrepresentations to the public and/or the community are not a good thing? ] <small><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>]</small> 22:44, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Thewolfchild, I didn't express any of the opinions and claims that you now ask me to I defend. So I won't. --] (]) 20:50, 31 March 2016 (UTC)--] (]) 20:50, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::"''{{tq|But asking you to back up the claims you do there seems perfectly fine. Or in short, if you claim to be a practicing biologist, I see no problem in asking you for your credentials. If you aren't willing to provide them, then you should not make the claim.}}''" Defend ''that''.<br> Meanwhile, I think I'll go put a "This user is an astronaut" userbox on my user page. Will I need to prove that? - '']'' 21:17, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *Well, it was a clear legal threat. Please don't do that, ]. There is no ], since you clearly identify on your user page. And it's not really right to say that you don't ''in any way'' represent the Wikimedia Foundation; your describes you in large letters as "Manager, Misplaced Pages Education Program Nigeria" etc., and your user page here features extensive descriptions of your volunteer participation in WMF activities like the Misplaced Pages Library. Of course as a volunteer you don't ''legally'' represent the WMF, but in a public-relations sense you do, given the press and outreach work you do in your home country. | |||
| *Now, as Peter Damian points out, we have had scandals within the Wikimedia movement before where people in leadership positions misrepresented their academic credentials, sockpuppeted extensively (you have candidly acknowledged your own sockpuppeting history), and so forth. They have harmed this movement. So it seems a fair question to me for the community to ask you whether you are in fact ''working'' as an academic or biochemist, because that is the impression your biography gives. If you just have a biochemistry degree, but are not currently working in the field, it would be better to say that (and there is no shame in that). Perhaps ] might like to weigh in here; you could for example provide documentation of your qualifications and current professional activity to her. At the end of the day, your fellow volunteers have an understandable desire to avoid misrepresentations that could lead to disrepute for the Wikimedia movement. As you are one of the public faces of Misplaced Pages in the Nigerian media, I think you should be open about this. ] <small><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>]</small> 13:27, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thank you so much {{u|Jayen466}}. I'm going to officially post the documentation of my credentials to the ] next week and I will Cced Anal Koval. I'm currently not in my home in Lagos. Do you think it's ideal for peter to slammed the article about me, ] with WP:COI template even when it has been declared at ]? This is unfair. We don't have to be unfair with ourselves. ]<sup>]</sup> 13:54, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::I'm daft; I had forgotten that Anna Koval recently left the Wikimedia Foundation. The Misplaced Pages Education Program is now managed by {{u|FKoudijs_(WMF)|Floor Koudijs}}. ] <small><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>]</small> 11:12, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| * I don't know the underlying matters here but that was a clear legal threat, no doubt. Maybe made in the heat of the moment, but a threat, still the same. --<span style="font-family:'Tahoma',Geneva,sans-serif">] <small>(] 📖 ])</small></span> 14:42, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *I agree that we shouldn't dig up ancient history and newbie mistakes. But Olatunde, you wrote the latest version of the bio this month, and Michael moved it into mainspace, so now it's an issue. Writing your own bio is a violation of ]. Current are almost identical and seem to have relied on a press release. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 16:54, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Now past 3rr reinsertion of their alteration of another users post. So its now vandalism. ] (]) 14:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Note''' Re-statement of ] , by ]. Might be relevant to your discussions. Cheers, ] <sup>''''']'''''</sup> 17:00, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| As well as this tit for tat report ]. ] (]) 14:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Further concerns=== | |||
| I have further concerns about this editor. I was puzzled by the way that he comes across as , and yet manages to come upt with a large and apparently impressive article like ]. I now have copyvio concerns. See my investigation . As already noted by , Olatunde's references either point to nonexisting webpages, to webpages not mentioning the subject, or unrelated Misplaced Pages articles. The same seems to be true of ]. He copies passages verbatim from other articles about ''other'' kinds of poisoning (such as Chlorine and Beryllium), and refs these to completely unrelated articles. E.g. he writes | |||
| : Mucous membranes are primarily affected, along with type I pneumocytes and the respiratory epithelium. The generation of free radicals from lipid peroxidation results in irritation of the bronchioles and alveoli, causing rapid destruction of the respiratory epithelial cells. The reaction's net result is the release of fluids, leading to pulmonary edema. | |||
| But cite-22 refers to which contains none of the text whatsoever, indeed almost no references to Nitrogen Dioxide. It's like that for every part I have looked at. This is not just a copyvio issue (he is copying from Misplaced Pages anyway) but potentially a public health risk, I would have thought (but I am not a medical expert). Could some expert look at this article please? ] (]) 17:37, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Recommend closing this subsection''': ANI is not the place to handle the content aspect of disputes like these. ] would be far better. With all due respect to Wikicology I would recommend he exercise care in editing articles about himself. Aside from that and the claimed legal threat above (which has been disavowed), there is nothing here clearly meriting administrator intervention. If some wrongdoing is demonstrated, rather than merely claimed, action might be appropriate. Even then I would advise Peter Damian to take care to avoid the appearance of impropriety in pursuing this matter: To my admittedly uninformed self, this looks a bit obsessive, and could give rise to sanctions for harassing behavior. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 22:14, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| **'''Agree''' with {{u|Mendaliv}}. Close this and other sub-sections as distractive to the main cause of complaint. ''']''' '']'' 23:52, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Messenger well and truly shot. Thanks Mendaliv ] (]) 06:49, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::To prevent fragmentation of the discussion, I think it's best to keep it in one place. FWIW, spot checks of the references in ] make it seem somewhat probable that there is a real concern here. To give one example, the sentence "Methemoglobinemia prevents the binding of oxygen to hemoglobin, causing oxygen depletion which can potentially lead to severe hypoxia." is sourced to Kattan M, et al. (2007). "Health effects of indoor nitrogen dioxide and passive smoking on urban asthmatic children." The source's full text is and mentions neither methemoglobinemia nor hypoxia, which is concerning. {{u|Doc James}} has said he will look into this; it would inform this discussion if he could let us know his impressions here in due course. ] <small><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>]</small> 23:27, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Wow...Thank you. I just read through the source and sentence myself and actually, the source provided do not support the sentence "Methemoglobinemia prevents the binding of oxygen to hemoglobin, causing oxygen depletion which can potentially lead to severe hypoxia." But that sentence is correct.. Still a mystery that I added that source, anyway.I will request an expert to clean it up. Happy easter. ]<sup>]</sup> 01:10, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Mendaliv, I'm familiar with Peter's history, but I'm pretty sure you're shooting the messenger, here. After creation and initial editing by Wikicology (only), had 37 references. I have checked the first 10 of them. Of these, 1 cannot be retrieved, 2 support part but not all of the preceding content, and the remaining 7 all have something to do with nitrogen dioxide, but don't support the content that precedes them. There appears to be a serious misinterpretation in using one of them: "The values were also based on concentation of Nitrogen dioxide that show a significant and direct effects on the pulmonary function of asthmatic patients," when in fact that study showed that asthma was correlated with NO<sub>2</sub> exposure <em>below</em> the set levels. Furthermore, the article repeatedly suggests that NO<sub>2</sub> exposure causes heart failure; that's at most a chronic rather than an acute result of exposure, and I'm not finding literature that bears that out. (One study suggested that exposure might increase the risk of mortality from <em>existing</em> heart disease, which is quite a different story.) I'm afraid this suggests to me that many, though not all, of the references were added at random after the text was composed to give it greater gravitas; the example chosen above by Andreas is not a fluke. ] (]) 02:00, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :IP blocked for edit warring. --] 14:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Wikicology seems to be copying text between articles without attribution. Parts of ], which he created on 9 January 2016 (most of it in one edit ) appear in ] and in ]. For example, see the internal search result for "Maxwell sculpted the original model in clay." | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Heritage Foundation planning to doxx editors == | |||
| :::It appears that sources are then added to some articles inappropriately or were perhaps wrong in the original. | |||
| {{atop|result=Closing to prevent a split discussion. The most central discussion about this is currently held at ]. —] 22:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| See ]. Various sources are beginning to report on this, see , . It seems they plan to “identify and target Misplaced Pages editors abusing their position by analyzing text patterns, usernames, and technical data through data breach analysis, fingerprinting, HUMINT, and technical targeting,” and “engage curated sock puppet accounts to reveal patterns and provoke reactions, information disclosure,” and “push specific topics to expose more identity-related details.” An IP user on the discussion page says "they intend to add malicious links (sources) that will set cookies, grab your IP, and get tracking going for your device. This has likely already started. Be careful, there are lots of ways to hide where a link goes." ] (]) 17:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I think there's a far more productive discussion going on at ]. ] (]) 17:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::A friendly reminder: It's always a good time to review the strength and age of account passwords, plus consider two-factor verification. The world is constantly changing... ] (]) 17:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Isn't doxing a federal/punishable offense in ten states (more or less), including DC? If they grab the information of or out a minor, that can easily be taken on as a form of harassment and won't end well. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 17:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::No doubt the Trump adminstration will make pursuing such cases a high priority. ]] 22:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm unsure why this isn't a WMF issue, due to potential legal and safeguarding issues. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 19:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::The WMF has been made aware. ] (she/her • ]) 19:56, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Truffle457 == | |||
| :::Wikicology, if you copy text, you should add attribution to the edit summary, such as <code>copied content from <nowiki>].</nowiki></code> Without attribution, it's a copyright violation. See ]. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 03:35, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|result=Editor blocked indefinitely. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| ::::Noted. Thank you. ]<sup>]</sup> 06:06, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| {{user|Truffle457 }} | |||
| :::: I have redirected ] to ]. See and . The Gibbs thing looks like some kind of exercise. Question: user {{user|SciFox}} = {{user|Wikicology}}? - ] (]) 08:32, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: I don't think so. Looking at SciFox's sandbox, they appear to have started translating the article into German, which I would not expect if they were the same user. ] (]) 16:03, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *Looking at the situation: | |||
| **This is a legal threat. That this threat has not been crossed out I find very concerning. | |||
| **If one has written an article about themselves they have willingly disclosed their identity. But more concerning one should not be writing an article about himself. Linking to ] is not support for this. That ] first says he was not writing about himself and now says that they are is a move forwards. | |||
| **The policy that says you cannot write about yourself is ]. It says "Do not edit Misplaced Pages in your own interests or in the interests of your external relationships." It is definitely fair for Peter to add the COI template to the article you wrote about yourself. | |||
| **As a member of the Individual Engagement Grant Committee yes they do represent the Wikimedia foundation and yes one expects a high degree of honesty. That they have blanked the article they created about them self is a positive step. | |||
| **] has now been redirected by ]. I am still concerned. The first referenced sentence is "It usually occurs after the inhalation of beyond the threshold limit value." supported by this ref . What content in there supports this claim? | |||
| **That Wikicology is working to improve content about Nigeria is excellent as is their efforts to promote Misplaced Pages in that country. ] (] · ] · ]) 08:17, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::I didn't mean any legal threat. I . I will request for cleanup on the medical related topics I wrote. Thank you. ]<sup>]</sup> 09:23, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Thank you for crossing it out ] ] (] · ] · ]) 14:06, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *I'm looking at ] ''']'''. It's not the same order of serious as writing your own biography or misrepresenting sources in a biomedical article but seems to have some plagiarism and sourcing problems. I've just had guests arrive but will continue with this in a few hours. | |||
| :Above, people are agitating to close this thread. Please don't. Let's keep all this in one place until we know what we're dealing with here. --] (] · ] · ]) 08:42, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| I don't even know what to call this. This user has few edits but most are like this. ] (]) 22:15, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :OK. I've finished (]). | |||
| :This is a new user with only a single level I notice on their page. I've issued a level II caution for using talk pages as a forum and added a welcome template. If this persists, stronger measures may be needed. -] (]) 22:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :], I'd advise talking with an editor, through words, not templates, before filing a complaint at ANI. That's a general recommendation unless there is active vandalism going on. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 22:53, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::His comments are disturbing tbh. ] (]) 22:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::The user's response to {{U|Ad Orientem}}'s warning demonstrates that they have no insight into their misconduct and are ].--] (]) 23:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{notdone|Indeffed}} per WP:CIR. -] (]) 23:48, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Well, by having a conversation, you discerned that CIR applied. Some communication, I think, is better than silence at least when you are trying to make sense of an unclear situation. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == YZ357980, second complaint == | |||
| :], first I have to say I'm very sorry you're going through this now. This can't be easy for you. | |||
| I have again reverted {{u|YZ357980}}'s insertion of an image of dubious copyright; change of Somali Armed Forces native-name to an incorrect format; and violation of ] at ] - see ] which had another editor fix the incorrect file format. I believe this editor is ] and not willing to communicate and I would request administrator attention to this matter. Kind regards ] ] 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :For the record, that image has been on Commons since 2015 and was made by a different user. That said, YZ357980 continues to make these borderline disruptive edits and has ''never'' posted on an article talk page or a user talk page. I've pblocked them from articlespace until communication improves, as it is ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:51, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::1. Thankyou!! Much appreciated!! | |||
| ::2. Yes I was aware of the status of those images, but I repeatedly told YZ357980 that it was of borderline copyright and WP had to follow US copyright law. I have managed to get the equivalent Iraqi ones deleted; I will go after the Somali ones to try to get them deleted. | |||
| ::3. ''Someone'' (an anon IP) posted on his talkapage as if replying, see . Please feel free to reconsider your actions should you wish, but I continue to believe YZ357980 is NOTHERE. ] ] 18:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Given which is clearly YZ not logged in, the block has been changed to full indef. - ] <sub>]</sub> 00:01, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == My reverted edit at List of Famicom Disk System games == | |||
| :#] and ] were created at roughly the same time. They both cover the 2015 Bronx outbreak, and I presume both authors searched en.Misplaced Pages and found no coverage of the topic before creating their respective articles. | |||
| {{atop|1=At worst, this deserves a {{tl|minnow}}. This is, at heart, a content dispute, and ] is the place to discuss it. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:44, 9 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| :#You begin the article with a falsehood (the only falsehood I could find). The outbreak the article addresses isn't the first known cases of infection by Legionella pneumophila in New York City. | |||
| Hi | |||
| :#Three of the eight citations in the article don't actually support what they're meant to support. | |||
| :#There are three instances of very close paraphrasing. In the first instance you've copied from a Misplaced Pages article. In such cases, as SarahSV pointed out above, it's best to mention in your edit summary that you copied it from X Misplaced Pages article. In the second instance, you don't actually cite the source (the ''New York Times''). That is plagiarism. You cite the source in the last instance but, if you can't think of a good paraphrase, I recommend just quoting the source directly, between " and ", otherwise you leave our reader with the impression that you came up with that form of words. | |||
| :] has just redirected the article to ]. where he's written of the salient points of the 2015 Bronx cases. This seems appropriate to me. I've just redirected ] to ]. ] (] · ] · ]) 14:31, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Firstly. I want to thank you for the diligent work on the article. Thanks for the helpful advice. I'm so grateful. It's a learning curve. ]<sup>]</sup> 14:47, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::'Learning curve'? You learned the art of ] pretty quickly ] (]) 21:02, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| * I spent today working over two of these articles, (that is a permalink, prior to the redirect with now goes here: ]) and I just finished completely rewriting ] (prior version is ). Am just starting to work on (permalink). <s>These articles were/are</s> <u>The two articles I cleaned were each</u> a disaster, and I am not being hyperbolic. Whatever else happens here, I would like there to be an indefinite topic-ban from anything related to health for Wikicology. ] (]) 08:57, 29 March 2016 (UTC) (redact ] (]) 21:05, 29 March 2016 (UTC)) | |||
| *:AFAICT, Wikicology has never edited the ] article. ] (]) 16:03, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thanks for pointing that out. I had finished cleaning up the other two and had not started the beryllium article when I wrote that. Yes, the Beryllium article was not even close as bad as the other two. Thanks for pointing out that it was not part of the problem. ] (]) 21:05, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *{{u|Wikicology}}, it would help if you could say how you intend to fix these issues. I see there are issues with image uploads too. I randomly checked a few sentences in your ], and the sources did not seem to support them (from "Following the King's visitation" to "end of the festival for that year"). | |||
| I added {{tl|clear}} to the top of table of ] to make the table use the whole horizontal space. I did it according to other list of video games articles and reception section of some video games articles to help the table list look better or not reception table to conflict with references (double column references more specifically). | |||
| :We all make mistakes. Fixing them is important, as is reflecting on why they happened so that you can put personal processes in place to avoid them in future. The more we see of you doing that, the less of an issue this will be. In the meantime, I agree with Jytdog that you should avoid anything health-related, and I would add to that no COI editing. Perhaps if you can agree to that, no formal topic ban would be needed. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 21:26, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thank you {{u|SlimVirgin}}, I strongly agree to this. In the interim, I will focus on general cleanup on the articles and images. If I need any assistance, I will contact you or any other experienced editor. I will start doing this by next week. See ] by Peter.]<sup>]</sup> 22:30, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::] you have not offered any explanation as to why you are creating all this bad content and continuing to use Misplaced Pages to promote yourself. You need to offer an explanation. I for one don't trust you to clean up as you have not shown any indication that you understand what you have done wrong. ] (]) 07:49, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Of course I understood what I did wrong. I have no negative intention. Just as User:SlimVirgin said, there are instances where the sources I provided do not support claims in the medical-related topics that was pointed out. There are also instances, where I wrongly copied text from other articles in the medical related topics without attribution. That won't repeat itself again. My non-medical related articles are fine but I will still double-check for any problem. I may also invite people to review again after the cleanup. I never know that writing about myself will be a major problem but now that I know, I have requested the article deletion and it has been deleted. I won't go back to this again. I will refrain from medical-related topics and other controversial topics. ]<sup>]</sup> 08:33, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| However {{ping|NakhlaMan}} reverted my edit and with a rude language called it "UGLIER" and calls it waste of too much space. | |||
| ::Wikicology, you have not addressed fully the issue above (see the mention of the article ]). It's not just your medical editing/articles which are problematical. Your other articles are full of fake references as well. You have written several hundred Misplaced Pages articles. Are they all full of fake references and fabricated information? ] (]) 09:40, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::I'm deeply sorry for this extremely slow response. It's a stressful day for me. I will like to say that my articles are not full of fake references. The ones that was pointed as was due to impatience. My Nigeria-related articles doesn't really have a major problem. ] once featured on DYK and if there is going to be a problem, it's certainly not going to be a major one. Almost all articles on Misplaced Pages have one problems or the other. No article is perfect, even some of our featured articles. Accuracy is a general problem on Misplaced Pages. If we should start digging up people's article, we will surely have something to raise concerns about. Like I earlier said, by next week, I will go over the articles again to check for problems even the ones that featured on DYK. Sincerely, this is really a difficult time for me. I however seek for community forgiveness never to repeat things like this. In fact, I will restrict my edits to Nigeria-related topics. ]<sup>]</sup> 13:12, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I strongly agree with the comments above by {{u|Softlavender}}. The valid concerns raised above about fake references, poor quality editing on medical articles, and unreliable sourcing standards, are most disturbing. — ''']''' (]) 15:38, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| With my edit, it adds just a small space to the top of list heading but the table could be read easier and uses the whole available space. ] (]) 04:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *{{u|Wikicology}}, it would help if you could explain how these things have happened. I've noticed that you create a lot of articles in one edit; for example, is the first revision of ]. So, first question: are you preparing them elsewhere and pasting them in? Second question: can you say something about how you find and choose sources? ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 16:12, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thanks you. Its just like a dream. I can still not understand how I unintentionally created those mess. Maybe I was impatience! Per your question; I often write the contents with sources as a draft outside mainspace (or sandbox), then paste it on mainspace. I usually don't use sandbox. I search for sources online and I choose sources based on their ] and relevance. I create a lots of articles on a daily basis. Sincerely, I unintentionally messed up on those medical-related topics. I will refrain from medical related-topics for years. Please advice. ]<sup>]</sup> 16:52, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Can you explain why you thought was reliable and relevant as a source for an article? That content was also completely unsupported by the source as well. I'm afraid that the more we look into your edits, the more problems we find and that it is evidently not restricted to those medical articles. ] (]) 17:15, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{u|Wikicology}}, if indeed as you say, you can still not understand how you unintentionally created this mess, could it be that your account is used by other people, with or without your being aware of it? Some kind of team perhaps? That might explain some things. - ] (]) 17:46, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :I don't think this is the right place for this. Yes, the user could have been much nicer on their opinion, but this is too much of an escalation, too fast. I would advise commenting on their talk page, or on the page talk page. Cheers, ] <sup><small>]</small></sup> 04:18, 9 January 2025 (UTC) {{nacmt}} | |||
| ::::{{U|DVdm}}, I don't share my account with anyone. I don't share my device with any of my team member and I rarely login my account in other device. I've decided to do something. By next week, I will pick the articles I've created one-by-one to fix any problem I found. I will triple check the sources, then invite one or two experienced editors to review them again. I was probably too hasty or impatient to double check some of my articles. I feel remorseful about this brothers. Thank you so much. ]<sup>]</sup> 20:47, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :Yes, their edit summary was mildly rude, but this is not actionable, please open a discussion on the article's talk page.]] 04:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Perhaps a ] is that, to achieve credibility and recognition on Misplaced Pages, you needed to create a substantial number of long articles with diverse sources. This (as I know) is difficult and takes a long time. A simpler way, as long as you are not found out, is to take the structure of a different article, say on Beryllium poisoning, then add random references that appear to reflect the new subject, and lo you have an article on Nitrogen Dioxide poisoning. And of course, yet again, you are lying to us. You "unintentionally created those mess"? My foot. Perhaps you can also explain how you protest your innocence, saying that 'olatunde olalekan' and 'Olatunde Isaac' are two different people. Is that true? Are they different people? If not, was your error 'unintentional'? How? Again, the simplest explanation is that you were telling us a fat, whopping great lie. ] (]) 18:29, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| :::Oh yes, and in the you protest that you "''promise to learn more'' about editting so that the same mistake will not repeat itself." You are making the same sorts of promises here again. What assurance do we have that you will keep your promises, given that you didn't before? ] (]) 18:33, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{u|Peter Damian|Peter}}, one thing I haven't understood is how ] fits in. Wikicology hasn't edited it. Did he copy parts of it to another article, and if so can you give an example? ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 18:44, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Yes, see my notes page and look at the examples. E.g. the old Beryllium poisoning article reads "persistent dry cough. It can result in anorexia, weight loss, and may also lead to right-side heart enlargement and heart disease in advanced cases.", his NO2 article read "persistent dry cough, all of which may result in weight loss, anorexia and may also lead to right-side heart enlargement and heart disease in advanced cases." He then references it to "Sources and concentrations of indoor nitrogen dioxide in Barcelona, Spain", which is quite comical. ] (]) 18:49, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| == Edit War in Korean clans of foreign origin == | |||
| :::::He has obviously been doing this for a long time. See e.g. . What is the connection between the completion of a church, and Matthew chapter 2? Written while socking, but my guess is that he quickly learned that Wikipedians rarely check that the source supports the content. After all, that edit stuck for years, and is still there. Realising that he could manufacture seemingly well-sourced articles and thereby gain a rep on Misplaced Pages, he gave up socking in order to build the rep up, so successfully that he now represents WMF as 'the face of Misplaced Pages in Nigeria'. It's actually pretty impressive. ] (]) 18:55, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| {{Atop|Ger2024 blocked as a sock.--] (]) 14:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| User: Ger2024 | |||
| {{Userlinks|Ger2024}} | |||
| {{od}} {{u|Wikicology}}, can you clarify some of this? For example, did you copy words from ] to ]? ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 20:31, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::I can't remember doing that. The truth is, most of these gas poisoning have similar symptoms but if the sources I provided does not support it, then its still a mess. I admit my errors on these topics and I will stay off-clear from topics like this. ]<sup>]</sup> 20:47, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Ger2024 has been ] and violated ] (they have as of now made five reverts) and possibly ] despite my direct requests asking them to and to instead discuss with me and @CountHacker on the Talk Page. While they did respond to my efforts to try to talk to them on the Talk Page, they immediately then reverted my edits after they made their comments. The initial edits started when another Misplaced Pages user was verifying and deleting some info on the page (likely for factual accuracy) when the reverts began. | |||
| ===Yet other articles?=== | |||
| I have just found , an apparently well-sourced article where the sources are apparent only. I haven't had time to check out comprehensively however. Supper time now, will look tomorrow, any help is welcome. ] (]) 19:06, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| In regards to WP:NPOV, there is a POV push, despite the multiple corrections both I and @CountHacker have issued. We notified the user that the same source they are using from is generally considered historically unreliable because it is a collection of folklore and legends (the source, while a valuable insight into Korean folklore, claims that the founder of the Korean kingdom of Silla was born from a literal Golden Egg, so cannot be taken to be factual because humans cannot be born from Golden Eggs). | |||
| * As already mentioned at ], a recent . This was just the first randomly picked recent contribution that I checked and just , so there's probably a ''lot'' more, likely far too much to be checked by even a handful of people. | |||
| * Second random check: . Removed unsourced red links . - ] (]) 06:41, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Repeating the diff, that self-referencing/COI edit you reverted was just on March 2, 2016. That is very recent. ] (]) 07:48, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thanks for your comments. I think my action is fine in the {U|Dvdm}} pointed out. Yes, I removed the external link because the link is already on the infobox. In , and you pointed out, my edit is also fine. Firstly, I created ] and I nominated it for deletion myself through ]. The article was deleted but still appear on the list of notable faculty member on the ] article. {{U|Dvdm}} and {{u|Jytdog}}, should "]" remain on the list? The removal of other non-notable people from the list is also justified. | |||
| :::Per ], a person is typically included in a list of people only if all the following requirements are met: | |||
| :::*The person meets the Misplaced Pages notability requirement. | |||
| :::*The person's membership in the list's group is established by reliable sources. | |||
| :::There are some common exceptions to the typical notability requirement: | |||
| :::*If the person is famous for a specific event, the notability requirement need not be met. If a person in a list does not have a Misplaced Pages article about them, a citation (or link to another article) must be provided to: a) establish their membership in the list's group; and b) to establish their notability on either ] or ]. | |||
| :::No reliable sources to established the subject notability and no indication that the people met the above requirement. Hence their removal. Please don't see my comment as argumentative. I'm only trying to explain the reasons for my action. There are lots to learn here and no one is perfect. I will address all the concern raised and there is no doubt that I've learn from my mistakes. ]<sup>]</sup> 10:44, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::<small>(fixed indentation, no further comment)</small> - ] (]) 11:10, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Despite trying to talk to them, they are just ignoring my and CountHackers actual points, and we even had more discussion but they just made their fifth revert. | |||
| * Not an article, but an i.m.o. disturbing comment in user {{u|Widr}}'s last week's RFA: . Quoting: {{!xt2|I wouldn't recommend blocking, unless it is a last resort. {{U|Ritchie333}} is correct that anyone can revert "poop" from an article, but these so-called vandal fighters never seem to notice and this is worrisome.}} Given what we have here, I think that Wikicology pointing to is very worrisome. - ] (]) 09:50, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::What I simply implied was that vandal fighters are doing some great work but should be careful with using the block button. Some editors, especially newbies sometimes unintentionally vandalize Misplaced Pages and they only need someone to explain what count as vandalism to them not to immediately block them. Please, don't quote me out of context. ]<sup>]</sup> 10:44, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::I quoted this specially ''because of'' the context. - ] (]) 11:10, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::It's impossible for newbies to "unintentionally vandalise" because vandalism means that edits are not made in good faith. ] (]) 17:11, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :This report belongs at ]. ] <sup><small>]</small></sup> 05:39, 9 January 2025 (UTC) {{nacmt}} | |||
| ===The number, type, and scope of these issues is alarming=== | |||
| :Who posted this complaint, they didn't leave a signature which, to me, shows a lack of experience. They also didn't leave any diffs so it's impossible to judge if there were indeed reverts. And as HeartGlow states, this is more suitable for ANEW which focuses on edit-warring. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 08:05, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Forgive the subthread, but we are talking about all of this so casually we might as well be talking about the lovely weather. In fact, we are talking about a number of extremely major issues, any one of which would get a person indef blocked or banned: | |||
| ::Unclear if genuine question or rhetorical, but in case it's the former, it seems to be ]. (They have over 1000 edits and have been editing since 2022, but it appears they may be used to using the Reply tool, which might explain why they didn't think to <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> since replying in that manner does that automatically? I think? <small>...Not trying to excuse it so much as I'm trying to understand it.</small>) - ] (]) 08:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Creating seven different Misplaced Pages articles about himself (and then attempting to backpedal by blatantly lying and saying they are two different people -- who merely happen to have the exact same first and middle name) | |||
| :::Sorry about that, I was a bit sleep deprived when I made, I'll go to WP:ANEW. | |||
| *Multiple instances of inserting potentially dangerous medical misinformation into Misplaced Pages articles | |||
| :::And yea im way too used to the reply tool, i think i make these posts like once perhaps every few months so i got a bit rusty on this. Thanks! ] (]) 13:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Fake references, links to nonexisting webpages or webpages not mentioning the subject, sources that contradict what they are supposedly substantiating | |||
| {{Abot}} | |||
| *Copyright violations | |||
| *Legal threat | |||
| *Sockpuppetry | |||
| == Subtle vandalism by 8.40.247.4 == | |||
| ... and whatever else I may have missed. This is looking even worse than the {{u|Wifione}} case to me. Why isn't this at ArbCom already, and/or why isn't a site ban being proposed? ] (]) 08:14, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=Excellent report results in a two-year block. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:57, 9 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| * {{Userlinks|8.40.247.4}} | |||
| Since early 2020, ] has consistently and ] made edits that: | |||
| * A site ] and can actually encourage creation of puppets by some. As long as the old behavior is no longer repeated and there is evidence of recent editing being productive, I think ArbCom can best decide if recent behavior is better or worse than that of three years ago and whether or not a ] can be officially allowed and condoned. ''']''' '']'' 09:08, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :*I welcome the neutral eyes of ArbCom and thus "officially" request a recognition and approval of a CLEANSTART by ArbCom,.. mostly because I wish to improve Nigerian topics and some editors choosing to continually revisit my newcomer mistakes is not productive. ]<sup>]</sup> 09:21, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::* Past errors ''may'' be forgiven just so long as you accede to whatever ] decide. ] could result in a long-term block or ban. Even our filing ] knows that this sort of fairness can work. ''']''' '']'' 09:39, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| * minimize achievements and contributions of black people in American society | |||
| *Yeow. So my thought is that a cleanstart isn't really merited if these are, indeed, old problems/newbie mistakes. If that's all they are, let's fix them now. Someone who has made mistakes in the past ''and owns up to them'' is extremely valuable, provided they make a concerted effort towards improving. If the problem is harassment on the basis of those old problems/newbie mistakes, then the gavel should fall against the person doing the harassment. I'm not arguing that there is harassment, but so long as it's on-wiki and not pervasive, I think it has the potential to do a great deal of reputational harm both to Wikicology and to the project to give the appearance that one of our most prominent Nigerian editors has been cast out for those mistakes. On the other hand, if there's ongoing disruption and serious problems with Wikicology's editing, then a cleanstart is not merited because it'd permit him to just walk away from damage and conceal future problems from whatever cleanstart account Wikicology is granted.{{pb}}In short, no matter what the facts are, I don't think the conclusion would be to authorize a clean start. Rather, I would suggest that what we need is factfinding and conclusions drawn as to whether Wikicology's recent editing behavior is disruptive or damaging, and if so what (if any) sanctions should lie to prevent further disruption. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 09:55, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| * obscure or soften wording about right-wing and far-right leanings of conservative figures | |||
| **I'll also note that is generally not considered a newbie mistake... even if it did happen just under 2 years ago. Considering the ], ], and what all the accounts did—] ] ] ] ], as well as ], and ] ]—it's a credible claim. I believe Wikicology has some difficult questions to answer, and those questions are not going to end with this ANI thread. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 11:07, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| * promote fringe, racist, or pseudo-scientific theories | |||
| ::::It's a newbie mistake to try to create ], multiple times when the topic was clearly not a notable one. Experienced editor will never commit such blunder (please, don't see my comment as argumentative). It's recent recreation by me is never a mistake but a misunderstanding of the ]. I never imagine that it will create a serious problem. Like I said I did consulted Nikki Maria and Michael. I was advised to write it in my sandbox if there are sources that will establish notability. I did and Michael moved it to main space on my request. If I had been discouraged, of course I wouldn't have recreated it. I however seek for community forgiveness never to repeat things like this. In fact, I will restrict my edits to Nigeria-related topics, in the interim. In addition, the topic ] should be salted. ]<sup>]</sup> 12:05, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *These aren't newcomer mistakes. His latest of his '''seven''' articles on himself was created just this month. He is still creating havoc. He has created 550 articles, all of which will have to be gone over with a fine-tooth comb for fake references and false information. He should not be in a position of leadership, and his Wikimedia page should be removed. He is on some sort of strange and misleading trip, in my view, exemplified for instance by his RfA five months ago: . A site ban would not be punitive, it would be preventive, the same as with {{noping|Wifione}}. I believe the case deserves a full and thorough review by ArbCom -- not to approve a so-called fresh start, but to assess how deep the level of falsehood and problematical editing goes, and in view of a possible site ban. ] (]) 10:07, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| The IP generally attempts to disguise the edits by lying about changes made in the edit summary. Here is a list of problem edits in chronological order: | |||
| ::Nothere. Why is this ed still allowed on the project? -] ] 10:22, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :*I never knew it will be a bad idea to write about myself again. I felt I could write it neutrally and declare the WP:COI. I admitted that I was wrong for doing this and I feel remorseful. This won't repeat itself again. I felt it was deleted and my attempt to recreate it then was considered disruptive because it was a clear non-notable topic. Actually, here is no policy that state that editors should declare their identity on Misplaced Pages. Like I said earlier, I may decided to call myself a "Fisherman" or a "Lawyer" it doesn't mean they are true since there is no reliable sources that supported such claim and identity disclosure is never a requirement to contribute to Misplaced Pages. Now that community feels it is proper to be truthful about this especially when I'm now becoming the face of Misplaced Pages in Nigeria, I will officially forward the documentation of my credential and profession to the WMF and if anyone wish to be copied, I will be more than glad to put them in copy of my email. There after, I will immediately make changes to my userpages. I however seek for community forgiveness never to repeat things like this. In fact, I will restrict my edits to Nigeria-related topics. ]<sup>]</sup> 12:05, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::The face of Misplaced Pages in Nigeria. Omg. Where is the banhammer? -] ] 13:54, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I don't think a site ban is called for, as I think this used could be helpful in other areas. However I don't think they should be writing about themselves. If they truly justify an article then there should be other people who can write about it. While COI editing is technically allowed here, I think in this case the community may want to consider disallowing it. ] 14:11, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::It ''would'' probably be a good idea, as long as we're here, set up a topic ban for Wikicology with respect to himself in all content spaces (i.e., he can still talk about himself in project and userspace, just not in articles, files, categories, templates for use in mainspace, etc.), as well as any publications to which he has contributed. That topic ban should be indefinite, given we're already ~3 years into this (including the previous accounts). I don't think we should accept a voluntary agreement to not do it, unless it's formalized as a topic ban. This would not be the resolution of this situation, but merely so we can pare down the topics of discussion, whether for here or for ArbCom. Again, this is not intended to foreclose a siteban discussion or ArbCom filing, just to hone the discussion. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 14:33, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| {| class="wikitable mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" | |||
| :::It's clear that Wikicology is at least trying to present himself as a Misplaced Pages representative, and actively trying to become the face of Misplaced Pages in Nigeria, and as such it's absolutely shocking that he seems to have no knowledge of even basic Misplaced Pages policy, and doesn't even by himself understand basic principles of neutrality. At the very least he should remove his self-aggrandizing autobiography from his User-page and stop trying to put himself forwards as some sort of Misplaced Pages expert. If he doesn't do that, I would support a ban to show that this guy most certainly does not represent Misplaced Pages in any way. | |||
| ! width="100" | Date | |||
| :::I also wonder if these kinds of pages are common and accepted: ], ]. I've never seen anything like that. --] (]) 14:12, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ! width="225" | Page | |||
| :::::<small>I want to let you know that I blanked my user page</small> ]<sup>]</sup> 15:33, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ! Issue | |||
| ::::I think pages like that, documenting past outreach projects and workshops are not unusual, but in recent years have been much more commonly kept over at meta. I do want to comment, though, that Wikicology evidently ''has'' done a lot in terms of outreach and workshops. For instance, he's one of the proposers/coordinators of an upcoming ], and is a member of the ]. I'm not saying that should be an endorsement or make him immune to oversight for acts or omissions over ''here'', but if he is positively contributing in other ways a siteban might serve to hamstring support for getting future projects rolling. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 15:07, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| |- | |||
| | Mar 4, 2020 | |||
| | '''McComb, Mississippi''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Removal of section about black people gaining the right to vote with the Voting Rights Act. | |||
| |- | |||
| | May 31, 2020 | |||
| | '''John Derbyshire''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Removes phrase describing ], a white nationalist organization, as white nationalist. Summary: "{{!xt|Fixed a typo}}". | |||
| |- | |||
| | Jul 21, 2020 | |||
| | '''Richard Hayne''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * "{{!xt|Reorganised wording}}" means removing criticism. | |||
| * "{{!xt|made favourable LGBT commentary more vivid}}" (what?) replaces the subject's stance on homosexuality with a vague and unsourced statement about Urban Outfitters and the Hayne family. | |||
| |- | |||
| | Jul 28, 2020 | |||
| | '''Louie Gohmert''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Softens "opposes LGBT rights" to "generally opposes LGBT rights legislation". Removes the words "defamatory" from section on Gohmert's false allegations. Removes whole section on Gohmert's opposition to making lynching a hate crime. | |||
| * Summary: "{{!xt|Grammatical issues.}}" | |||
| |- | |||
| | Sep 24, 2020 | |||
| | '''Back-to-Africa movement''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Omits the context of Christians accepting slavery when the slaves were Muslim to make it sound like religious Americans had always been morally opposed | |||
| |- | |||
| | Jan 14, 2021 | |||
| | '''Virginia Dare''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Removes description of VDARE as a group associated with white supremacy and white nationalism. | |||
| |- | |||
| | Apr 28, 2021 | |||
| | '''Bret Stephens''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Hides his climate change denial, so the sentence now basically reads "Bret Stephens has an opinion on climate change". Uses summary "{{!xt|Removed redundancy}}" (it wasn't redundant). | |||
| |- | |||
| | June 25, 2021 | |||
| | '''John Gabriel Stedman''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Removes sentence on pro-slavery leanings (admittedly unsourced) and sexual exploitation of one of his slaves (sourced). Summary: "{{!xt|Minor grammatical / spelling errors revised.}}" | |||
| |- | |||
| | Oct 7, 2021 | |||
| | '''Appalachian music''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Replaces the "various European and African influences" in the introduction with a phrase implying the music's origins were European, and that African-American influence only came later, which is untrue. | |||
| * Rewords " call and response format ... was ''adopted'' by colonial America" to say " ... was ''also common'' in colonial America". | |||
| * Removes entire paragraph about African-Americans introducing the banjo to white Southerners. Further down, changes "African banjo" to just "banjo". | |||
| * Summaries: "{{!xt|Added links to traditional folk music wikis}}" and "{{!xt|Verbiage clean-up}}". | |||
| |- | |||
| | Nov 27, 2021 | |||
| | '''Steve Sailer''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Removes all mention of Sailer, backed by sources, as holding racist, white supremacist, and anti-semitic views in the introduction. | |||
| * Removes description of Sailer's human biodiversity theory as pseudoscientific and racist. | |||
| * Summary is "{{!xt|Added a link to human biodiversity}}" – true, but leaves out the 6,000 deleted bytes. Makes the same edit two more times, but is reverted each time. | |||
| |- | |||
| | Jan 26, 2022 | |||
| | '''Mongoloid''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Removes phrase calling it a disproven theory. Replaces sentence on racist origins in Western scholars with mention of Eastern scholars also promoting the theory (unsourced). Adds a phrase saying that actually, it's up for debate. | |||
| |- | |||
| | Jul 6, 2022 | |||
| | '''Indian Mills, New Jersey''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Deletes phrase about white colonists displacing Native American families. Summary: "{{!xt|Removed a dead link}}". | |||
| |- | |||
| | Feb 20, 2023 | |||
| | '''Myth of meritocracy''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Changes sentence on institutional racism to describe it as "theoretical institutional racism". | |||
| |- | |||
| | Mar 26, 2023 | |||
| | '''Millford Plantation''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Hides the plantation's origins in slavery by renaming description from "forced-labor farm" to "farmstead". Summary: "{{!xt|Added link to slavery in the USA}}". | |||
| |- | |||
| | Jun 17, 2023 | |||
| | '''John Birch Society''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Removes mention of the society being right-wing, far-right, and radical right in introduction. | |||
| * Further down, removes description as being ultraconservative and extremist, and Southern Poverty Law Center's classification as antigovernment. | |||
| * Summary: "{{!xt|Removed faulty and vague links.}}" | |||
| |- | |||
| | Jan 9, 2025 | |||
| | '''Robert Gould Shaw''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Removes sentence on the battle inspiring African-Americans to join the Union Army during the Civil War. Summary: "{{!xt|Grammatical clean-up}}". | |||
| |- | |||
| | Jan 9, 2025 | |||
| | '''Virginia Dare''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Edits the page again four years later, this time using VDARE's closing as an excuse to remove all mention of it. Claims it is "{{!xt|no longer relevant}}", which is a crazy argument. | |||
| |} | |||
| The IP doesn't make enough edits at a time for vandalism warnings to rise to level 4, and thus has never been blocked (which is why I'm reporting this here and not at ]). These groups of edits are also spaced out over months, so a different user warns the IP each time (eight times so far!). The user, unfamiliar with the IP's editing history, treats the old warnings as "expired" and simply issues another level 1 or 2 warning. | |||
| I am a little concerned that at Wikicology's recent {{u|Davidcannon}} told Wikipedians Wikicology was a lecturer at ]. Searching the university' website for his name yields , and he is not on the . In this context I note from earlier this month, in which Wikicology (1) added himself as the only notable alumnus of the university and (2) deleted the external link to the university's official site (the link was also present in the infobox, but malformed and not clickable). --] <small><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>]</small> 14:41, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| I believe this IP should be banned for a while. Unfortunately, there are probably many more like this one that haven't been caught yet. --] (]) 09:29, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Henceforth: | |||
| :I spot checked these and yeah this is bad. Using false and misleading edit summaries to remove in most cases sourced descriptions to slant articles. <small style="background:#ccc;border:#000 1px solid;padding:0 3px 1px 4px;white-space:nowrap;">] | ]</small> 12:42, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I will never edit content about myself again | |||
| ::Jesus Christ. Blocked for two years, since it looks like the IP is stable. ] ] 15:35, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I will never use another account other than this one | |||
| :::Thank you! ] (]) 19:08, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I will appropriately paraphrase all content and | |||
| ::::I think this discussion is a good example of providing all the infomation needed to the admins to make the decision. If only everyone who complained here did the same. ] (]) 19:16, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *only use high quality secondary sources going forwards. ]<sup>]</sup> 15:33, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Egl7, anti-Armenian behaviour == | |||
| :{{re|Wikicology}} if henceforth you will indeed never use another account other than this one, would you please provide a full list of the accounts that you have recently (and since 3 June 2014) used? I think that would be helpful. Thanks. - ] (]) 15:55, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=Egl7 indef'd for being here to argue instead of building an encyclopedia. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| ::Thanks for all your comments and advise so far. Sincerely, I do not have any other account. This is the only account I'm using since June 3, 2014. Thank you. ]<sup>]</sup> 16:19, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| {{userlinks|Egl7}} | |||
| :::And how do we know you are telling the truth, given that you said "I don't know If any of the above suspects of sockpuppet also uses the same browsing center because its not my juridition to be monitoring anybody that visit the same computer center so I wouldn't know if any one is using the same Ip to abuse wikipedia. Although I appear more like a new user.''Am not realy a new user I once have an account on wikipedia but I lost the diary that contain the pin and username''. That's why I created a new one you see as “sixtyn”. Esteem wikipedian,let's not punish the ''inoccent ones'' for what they knows nothing about. " ] (]) 18:37, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::AND AGAIN: . "The seeming sources that were actually to wikipedia articles that did not support the content ''gave a false air of significance to the subject''. I would strongly recommend against doing that again. Misplaced Pages articles may not be used to source articles. " How can he plausibly claim that this was an accident or a mystery or a dream, given that this has been his mode of operation for well over 2 years? ] (]) 19:44, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::] stop being hostile with me. An {{u|Spartaz|editor}} has and {{u|Maunus|another editor}} raised similar concern about your behavior on ]. ] and ]. If everyone behaves like this then you won't have been allowed to continue editing here, considering your past behavior. I learn that and the last was an indef-blocked for maybe 5 years. So you sure ain't perfect. I wonder what socks you used during those many years. one has to wonder why this guy does not believe in ]. Heck he was at . you were banned from editing for using multiple sock puppets. See ]. It was reversed after you appealed to ArbCom. Now tell me, considering your disruptive behavior, are you not suppose to be site ban yourself? And you're here asking people to stone a sinner (seeking for forgiveness) to death when you yourself is the most sinful person. I don't expect people like you to be giving advise on sockpuppetry-related issue as a MASTER of SOCKPUPPETRY. ]<sup>]</sup> 20:28, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::This sort of counterattack doesn't help your cause, {{u|Wikicology}}, given how many editors have verified and endorsed ]'s concerns above. Drop it. ] <small><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>]</small> 22:58, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ;Comment | |||
| This is an open comment for everyone; Chill out. It's as if some of you are out for blood. Sure, Wikicology has created somewhat of a mess, but it doesn't seem as if he did so with any malice or intent to harm. Misplaced Pages is a massive, complex beast and not easiest thing to learn quickly (especially if English is not your primary language). I think that Wikicology's involvement with the WMF and certainly his participation and attitude here at ANI speaks volumes. He's knows he's made mistakes, he knows they need to be cleaned up and that he has a lot to learn. Asking for blocks and bans and whatnot will solve nothing. I think if we ask Wikicology to voluntarily stop creating articles or adding content for now, until he can demonstrate a competence for doing so and a sound knowledge of the ], will suffice. In the meantime, allow him to help with the clean-up, it would be a good learning experience. Perhaps some ] would help as well... - '']'' 21:04, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :"{{xt| ... his participation and attitude here at ANI speaks volumes. He's knows he's made mistakes, he knows they need to be cleaned up and that he has a lot to learn.}}" He's learned how to speak sweetly and make promises which he does not keep. Aside from his COI, constant self-promotion, lies about who he is and his employment/profession (see ]'s revelations above), copyright violations, and dangerous medical misinformation, he has created 550 articles which are likely full of the same fake references and false information that all of the ones we have examined so far are. ] (]) 00:42, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::I agree that there are serious concerns with this editors contribs. Dialing back at this time just isn't an option, not merely because of the seriousness of the claims, but the positions of trust Wikicology has attained both here and in the grant-awarding bodies on meta. In determining whether Wikicology has done wrong we need to clear it up publicly and transparently. In my view the most serious claim here is becoming falsified research and credentials: If it's true, then the Foundation appears to have bankrolled some of this editor's activities through grant disbursals. If false, then continuing to pursue this looks like it will severely damage the Misplaced Pages movement in Nigeria. It's a really serious situation that needs to be handled carefully. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 02:29, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::I'm also concerned whether some of the 550 articles he has written are COI/paid, especially those concerning people or organizations in his home country. He has created an average of approximately one article per day (hard to tell the full number since deleted articles don't always show up on the X!'s tools) since he started editing, which in itself is odd in my view, particularly since many of them are quite large and have quite a large number of 'citations'. In terms of "{{xt|If false, then continuing to pursue this looks like it will severely damage the Misplaced Pages movement in Nigeria}}", I disagree. The whole thing has to be rooted out from the bottom up. It would be scandalous ''not'' to investigate this. ] (]) 02:38, 1 April 2016 (UTC); edited 03:18, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::As others have said above, an ArbCom case may be the best venue for such an investigation, given the amount of material that has to be critically examined, and the fact that some of it is no longer even visible to non-admins. It's too much for AN/I to handle. ] <small><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>]</small> 03:35, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I concur. This is beyond ANI's ability to review at this point. {{ping|Softlavender}} I actually wholeheartedly agree with you, that it would be scandalous to fail to review this situation. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 04:31, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *{{Comment}}: Initially, I decided to be silent about my employment status and credentials but I have decided to break silence about series of accusation of falsified credentials. First of all, I never in anyway falsified my credentials and it is quiet unfortunate that people keep accusing me of this here. I'm a biochemist just as I had stated in my userpage and anywhere you can find it. I once lectured at "Adekunle Ajasin University Annex" but not directly employed by the University (not a formal employment). I did this for few months before my current employment. Currently, I work as a medical lab scientist at "Dynamics medical laboratory and diagnostics service", here in Lagos, Nigeria. I was employed there before my National Youth Service Program and I returned to the organization after the program. The fact that my former work at the annex is informal is why you can't find my name on the university staff list and no media have ever described me as ACADEMIC neither have I stated it anywhere outside Misplaced Pages that I'm an academic. Misplaced Pages is informal, thus I can include informal information/activities on my userpage. If the WMF had formally requested for my personal information/credentials, there is no way I can include my work at the annex. To avoid any doubt, I am more than ready to forward my Certificates to the WMF with my professional employment status, to clear every doubt. If anyone his interested, I will Cced you. I recently blanked my userpage because I felt personal information is not even necessary in the first place. I'm sad to seeing all these accusations. Why would anyone call me a liar and accused me of falsified credential when I have not presented any formal documents that contradicted what is on my userpage? This is disheartening!!! Even when ] was created, did I went ahead to include this on the list of academics? Did all the reliable sources in the article refers to me as academic?. If you must accuse people of falsified credential on the basis of what you see on their userpage, why have you not been accusing those that include series of things like "This user is a medical doctor" This user is a chemist" in sandboxes on their userpage. Take this case to Abcom, they know how to best handle this. All the accusers too will be mentioned, they would have to provide all the necessary documents to back their accusation. If any of the accusers refuse to take this to Abcom, I'm going to take this to Abcom myself. ]<sup>]</sup> 05:17, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Not directly employed by the University? Then how do explain this photo of you labeled "Wikicology in his office at ], Nigeria" (which retained that caption until 31 October 2015, the day after you withdrew your failed RfA)? -- ] (]) 06:08, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Am I not suppose to describe my image? Yes the caption is suppose to be " Wikicology in his office at Adekunle Ajasin University Annex" but I never really took the photo serious. In fact, that wasn't really my personal office, I have no personal office there. When I took the photo, someone told me it was fine. He said "Isaac, this photo is fine, it looks as if you're in your personal office" that's why I used the caption." I have never thought it would misinformed other editors, afterall Misplaced Pages Userpage is an informal place for volunteers. I apologize if you are misinformed with the caption. I'm not the photo-loving type that's why it was there for long and when I got a better one I removed it. Is there any problem with that? ]<sup>]</sup> 06:38, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *More fun with self-created Misplaced Pages articles on himself: | |||
| Egl7 clearly has bone to pick with Armenia, including dancing on the fine line of ], not to mention severe ] issues. As a Russian admin admit perfectly put it when they indeffed Egl7; | |||
| :*{{la|Olatunde olalekan isaac}} was created '''four''' times | |||
| :*{{la|Olatunde Olalekan Isaac}} was created '''two''' times | |||
| :*{{la|Olatunde O Isaac}} | |||
| :*{{la|Olatunde isaac}} | |||
| :*{{la|Olatunde olalekan}} was created '''four''' times | |||
| :*{{la|olatunde isaac O}} | |||
| :*{{la|Olatunde Isaac}} was created 2 March 2016 and deleted at creator's request three days ago after this ANI was filed | |||
| #Egl7 never tries to take responsibility for their actions, instead being upset and obsessing over that I didn't revert a random IP that added "Armenian" under "common languages" in an infobox almost two years ago , mentioning that 7 (!) times | |||
| :That makes a total of '''14 times''' he has posted articles on himself on Misplaced Pages article space. -- ] (]) 05:47, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| #According to Egl7, having three things (out of 25) about Armenia on my userpage - being part of the ], being interested in the history of ], and opposing the denial of the Armenian genocide, means I support "Armenia's actions" , whatever that means. They never explained it despite being asked to, which leads me to the next thing. | |||
| :::I do not see how this is relevant here again. This had been already noted above. Yes, I created the article 13 times as a newbie (with socks) when the topic was clearly not notable and the accounts I used to recreate it were blocked. It's recreation is as a result of the significant of the topic in multiple independent reliable sources. Just as I had said earlier, I never put it directly on the mainspace. Michael Q. Schmidt moved it to mainspace. Now that it has generated a lots of heating reaction, I requested for it to be speedily deleted and have also requested that it should be SALTED which is a good step. I've been advised above not to write about myself again by several editors. I have agreed. What else do you want? Are you just interested in Drama? If that's your aim then you are not helping this discussion. ]<sup>]</sup> 06:38, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| #Here is this incredibly bizarre rant by Egl7 for me having stuff about Armenia on my userpage and not Azerbaijan, accusing me of anti-Azerbaijani sentiment and whatnot; | |||
| #Egl7 does not understand when someone is not interested in engaging in ] whataboutism, instead resorting to ], first on my talk page , then an article talk page , then their own talk page . This random question about the ] appeared after I asked them if they denied the Armenian Genocide since they considered me having a userpage about it part of "supporting Armenia's actions". According to this well sourced Wiki section , the term "genocide" is a "fabrication" for the Khojaly massacre, which is "used to counter the narrative of the Armenian genocide." | |||
| #Dancing on the fine line of ], if not denying it | |||
| #Despite being blocked on the Russian Misplaced Pages for it, their first action here was trying the very same thing they were indeffed for ; changing "Nakhichevan" (Armenian spelling) to "Nakhichivan" (Azerbaijani spelling) | |||
| #I truly tried to have ] despite their disruptive conduct and previous block, but this user is simply ]. There also seems to be severe ] at hand, as they struggle understanding a lot of what I say, including even reading ], which I had to ask them to read 5 (!) times before I gave up. As seen in our long discussion , they also to struggle understand basic sentences/words, such as the difference between "official" and "common". | |||
| I'm not going to respond to Egl7 here unless an admin wants me to. --] (]) 13:31, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == User:Psomu800 == | |||
| === HistoryofIran, anti-Azerbaijani behaviour === | |||
| {{User|Psomu800}} has persistently violated ] by placing copyrighted text into numerous articles despite warnings. Recent examples: | |||
| {{atop|1=]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| * {{diff|All_India_Radio|712329259|709254939|diff 1}} – content copied to ] article from , and . | |||
| ] | |||
| * {{diff|RuPay|711236743|710493002|diff 2}} – content copied to ] article from . | |||
| * {{diff|India_Posts|709115506|709113888|diff 3}} – content copied to ] article from . | |||
| I think we should follow ] and block Psomu800 for the protection of the project, pending satisfactory assurances that infringement will not continue. --] (]) 16:13, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| @] clearly has bone to pick with Azerbaijan, including ] my ] work which includes correction of arrangement of the "Today is part of" infobox following the country, in which, at present, the largest part of the territory of the Nakhchivan Khanate is located. @] is reverting back changes, saying that my https://en.m.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Nakhichevan_Khanate&diff=prev&oldid=1268162595 edit is not an improvement without any real reason and without offering any argument. Also they are stating that there is a restriction according to ], while ignoring edits of other users. I asked them many times to open a discussion so both sides could offer different proposals which in turn would lead to a consensus. In response all my requests were ignored. Also they have been accusing me of having conflicts with other users and countries while I have never noted or mentioned any and they have been impolite to me all the time, while i have never been impolite or rude to them. I want to say that I am blocked on ru.wikipedia, again, because of no real reason(They are vandalizing and projecting their actions onto me) and now i'm even worried that en.wikipedia will do the same to me. | |||
| :It happened again ({{diff|Hinduja_Global_Solutions|712549774|711003948|diff 4}}). This time Psomu800 copied text to the ] article from . --] (]) 12:49, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Suggest posting to ] for more attention on the articles in question, and to ] for more eyes on the user issues. — ''']''' (]) 16:14, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| == Godsy Disruption & GAMING the System == | |||
| {{see also|User talk:Godsy#St. John's Fire District and other moves|Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Continued Disruption by User:QEDK|Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Threats from Cryptic & CSD:U5|Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive917#MfD end run GAME|Misplaced Pages:Deletion_review/Log/2016_March_31#User:Acresant1123.2FChaz_Knapp}} | |||
| ---- | |||
| After failing to get me sanctioned for alleged gaming , , , , , , , , Godsy immediately embarked on his own ] mission reverting moves into mainspace of ] articles on non-controversial and easily verified topics , , , , , , . | |||
| They are also dancing on the fine line of denying ], if not denying it. | |||
| This activity is quite pointy and downright hypocritical. While he claims he is trying to prevent me from getting material deleted from userspace (including the stupid suggestion I'm moving pages to main to delete them) he is himself deleting the Stale Draft material from mainspace where I placed it for other editors to expand and improve. His actions are in direct contravention of ] (does nothing to expand or improve the encyclopedia) and the guidelines at ]. "Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it <u>may</u> be removed and should not be restored without an inline citation to a reliable source. <u>Whether and how quickly</u> material should be initially removed for not having an inline citation to a reliable source depends on the material and the overall state of the article. In some cases, editors may object if you remove material without giving them time to provide references; consider adding a citation needed tag as an interim step. When tagging or removing material for lacking an inline citation, please state your concern that it may not be possible to find a published reliable source for the content, and therefore it may not be verifiable. If you think the material is verifiable, you are encouraged to provide an inline citation yourself before considering whether to remove or tag it." He made no effort to add sources or verify anything. | |||
| Thank You. ] (]) 15:03, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Godsy is part of the small group that appears to want userspace drafts untouched regardless of how old or unsuitable and against policy ] that allows any user to work on them. | |||
| :*'''Boomerang''' this is a clearly retaliatory filing. I think Egl7 is ]. ] (]) 15:05, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I'd like to see these moves all reversed and material restored to mainspace. Let's tag up anything that is actually questionable and see if we can improve these topics rather then delete them by stealth by relegating good topics to userspace forever. ] (]) 20:58, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :*'''Boomerang''' obvious retaliatory filling. ] (]) 15:07, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Another report? Sigh... either an admin needs to boldly handle all these or it's likely to end up at arbcom (which is ridiculous imho). ] ] <small>Please {{]}}</small> 21:22, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :As a non-EC editor, you should not be discussing Armenia/Azerbaijan issues at all except for making specific, constructive edit requests on the relevant talk pages. Once you received notice about the restriction, none of your related edits were in good faith, and all may be reverted without being considered edit warring. And quite frankly, the diffs that HistoryofIran has presented about your behavior don't look great. Your behavior on Russian Misplaced Pages doesn't affect your rights on English Misplaced Pages, but since you brought it up, I have to agree that you were there and now here more to fight than to edit a collaborative encyclopedia. ] (]) 15:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :: Well, any admin who does involved is then part of problem so we shall see. ] is now protected since there's massive editing going to create new policy which then gets taken straight to MFD and arguments continue again. -- ] (]) 06:06, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| : |
::@] tell me, please, if there is a restriction why are everybody's edits are ignored except mine? You are not doing justice. ] (]) 15:39, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | ||
| :::Because the restriction is specific to people who do not have extended confirmed status. ] (]) 15:41, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::i know that i'm being picky and can sound like a snitch, don't get me wrong, but, at least, i'm editing from an account while other users are editing from random IPs. How is it possible for a random IP to have an extended confirmed status? ] (]) 15:48, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::The person you created this obviously retaliatory report against is not an IP and does have EC status. The correct thing to do, the thing you should do if you want to enjoy any opportunity to continue participating in this project, is to immediately withdraw this complaint and commit to adherence with WP rules going forward. ] (]) 15:57, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I'm not taking about @] here. Look up the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Nakhichevan_Khanate&action=history. You can see that there are IPs, edits of which were ignored even if those edits have been done after the restriction had been set. This is what makes it unfair. By this logic my edits should've been ignored too. ] (]) 16:05, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::No IP has edited the page in question in nearly a year. You are complaining about a non-issue. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 16:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::The restriction has been set much earlier than a year. ] (]) 16:13, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Right, but at ANI we deal with {{tq|urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.}} The IP edits here are old news. Further, having now reviewed the page's last 5 years of history...out of 7 IP edits made, 5 were reverted almost immediately, 1 is arguably not covered by GS/AA (]), leaving exactly 1 edit that probably should have been reverted but wasn't (], which added "Armenian language"). You'll notice upon minimal investigation, however, that HistoryofIran's most embattled edits to this page were to ''remove'' "Armenian language" from the article in July of 2023; it's rather disingenuous to accuse them of all people of turning a blind eye here. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 16:15, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::This does not refute what I said above. ] (]) 16:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::There are actually 2 or more of them. I guess it's his duty to support both sides and remove or add information which is or is not necessary. ] (]) 16:29, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::I'm not sure what you're trying to say here at this point, but it also doesn't matter. HoI raised multiple valid concerns regarding the quality of your editing in an area that per our community guidelines, you should be intentionally avoiding. In response, you filed a retaliatory report and are now arguing technicalities that are tangential to the substance of HoI's initial report. The fact that you are arguing such trivial, irrelevant points is evidence against you in these proceedings. Your best course of action is to follow Simonm223's advice above. Failure to take that advice at this point is almost certain to end with you blocked. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 16:43, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Is there a rule, that a non-EC editor can't report an incident? ] (]) 16:33, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::It's not. However, someone making an inappropriate edit without being caught does not make your inappropriate edits into appropriate ones. There have been many successful bank robberies in history, but that doesn't mean I'm allowed to rob the bank next to my grocery store. You need to start focusing on how ''you'' conduct yourself, not on how others do, because right now, you appear to be headed towards a block. ] (]) 16:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I understand you. But i want to note that no matter how successful are the robberies, a lengthy criminal investigation will be launched. In addition, i want to say that i wasn't aware of those edits before I did mine. ] (]) 16:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::You did receive a warning on your talk page. Your conduct issues are not limited to violating ECP. You would be wise to heed the advice given in this thread from Simonm223 and Rosguill. The community does not have much patience for nationalist editing. ] (]) 16:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Is there a rule, that a non-EC editor can't report an incident? ] (]) 16:31, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::], {{tq| The restriction applies to all edits and pages related to the topic area, broadly construed}}. That includes complaints about other editors. Which you should know already, as you have been repeatedly warned about GS/AA and should have read that page carefully. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 16:39, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::So Is there a rule, that a non-EC editor can't report an incident, which in my case is "HistoryofIran, anti-Azerbaijani behaviour"? I am asking this because you said that "The correct thing to do, the thing you should do if you want to enjoy any opportunity to continue participating in this project, is to immediately withdraw this complaint and commit to adherence with WP rules going forward". And still, what you said in this comment does not refute what I said above. ] (]) 16:50, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Lists of everyone that has been sanctioned for GS/AA violations, or CT/AA violations more broadly, can be found at ] and further at ] under each year's Armenia-Azerbaijan (CT/A-A) section. Note that this only lists people who repeatedly ignored warnings and got blocked for it, simple reverts are not logged. I would encourage you to avoid getting your own username added to that list. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 15:44, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * All I see is Egl7 doubling down. I have already tried to tell them that there was nothing wrong with the IP edit they are fixiated on, and that it doesn’t excuse their unconstructice edits regardless. The fact that they were caught red handed in genocide denial and anti-Armenian conduct and then fruitlessly attempts to make me appear as the same with Azerbaijanis by copy-pasting part of my report and replace “Armenian” with “Azerbaijani” says a lot about this user. ] (]) 16:33, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:@] "There was nothing wrong" | |||
| *:As @] said 1 is arguably not covered by GS/AA (]), leaving exactly 1 edit that probably should have been reverted but wasn't (], which added "Armenian language"). | |||
| *:As I understand you were aware or now are aware of those edits done by those IPs what tells me that you admit that you ignored or are ignoring the edits that have been done after the restriction has been set and now you are still stating that there was or is nothing wrong with those IPs' edits. ] (]) 16:45, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::And we're done here. If you can read my comments here close enough to try to use them to make tendentious arguments at HoI, you should be able to understand that I already told you this is not even slightly appropriate. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 16:55, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I '''endorse''' this block. ] (]) 20:52, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == ]'s unreferenced edits == | |||
| *I stand my . Stating the current ] and my subsequently following them isn't equal to "Godsy ... appears to want userspace drafts untouched regardless of how old or unsuitable". I think that a ] should be formed on the issue of the types of moves {{noping|Legacypac}} has been doing. Objections have been raised across multiple forums by many editors, and users shouldn't continue unilateral action not supported by the rules and consensus when their actions are challenged. If Legacypac wants the couple of handfuls (approx. 10) of moves I reverted reveiwed, perhaps the approx. from the userspace or draftspace to the mainspace they performed this year should be called into to question. I refuted the above twisting of ] on ], so I'm not going to waste space and do it again here. That's all I have to say.<small>—]<sup>(]</sup><sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">])</sub></small> 21:34, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| * The unsatisfying close of ] was unfortunate. It gives implicit approval to the GAMING, short of an arbcom ruling. The disputed boldness needs to stop for policy development. --] (]) 22:48, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :: On my part, the amount of activity exceeds my ability to review. It is not possible to see the full picture. --] (]) 22:54, 28 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| I'm reporting {{Ping|Yemen meh}} for unreferenced edits. They've been told many times in the past to post references, and looking at their contributions page, they have done so many unreferenced edits in the last few days. ] (]) 09:47, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *{{facepalm|supreme}} Why are we back at ANI already? I really hope this doesn't have to go before ArbCom. We should be working together on an answer to the draft situation. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 00:04, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :Also, just few days ago - this happened. ] (]) 10:18, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| We are only back at ANi because Godsy insists I want to delete everything (not true obviously since by his count I've moved 250 pages forward) but insists on himself effectively deleting the pages I think are a good start for mainspace without any effort to improve them. Now he calls into question all my moves. Seriously, what the heck is his agenda here? | |||
| == IP hopper repeatedly adding unsourced and incorrect information to UK Rail articles == | |||
| Policy development is always an option, but mass undoing another editor's good faith efforts to bring good topics forward defies ]. If he really does not like a page, take it to AfD, don't stealth delete it in a way that is not easy to fix. | |||
| ] (]) 01:18, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Discussion moved from ] to avoid cluttering up that noticeboard with discussion. | |||
| :Refutation of your statements point by point: | |||
| :"We are only back at ANi because Godsy insists I want to delete everything" | |||
| ::''False''. I've stated that some of your page moves were inappropriate per the guideline that currently exist (i.e. ], "If suitable for mainspace, move to mainspace;") in the ] (not started by me I might add). If a page you move to the mainspace is deleted, then it clearly is not suitable for the mainspace. | |||
| :"effectively deleting the pages I think are a good start for mainspace" | |||
| ::"pages I think are a good start for mainspace" seems to be unequal to "]". | |||
| :"Now call into question all my moves. Seriously, what the heck is agenda here?" | |||
| ::By my count approx. have been deleted so far this year that you moved to the mainspace. That's about 10%. If a page gets deleted, it wasn't ], and should not have been moved. That means the page moves were improper. If that big of a chuck of the page moves were improper, what is to say that others were not as well? Some of the page moves I reverted were articles slated for deletion ({{ph|User:Streetseekers/Blackwater Primero|example}}). | |||
| ::This (move summary: "move to mainspace to subject to AfD to test notability- claims at MfD that GNG does not apply are too annoying") and ]. | |||
| :"but mass undoing another editor's good faith efforts to bring good topics forward defies ]" | |||
| ::I wouldn't consider call 10/250 (less than 5% of the moves) "mass undoing". I gave a good reason in my : "The article lacks references of any kind, failing part of the ], and as such it fails the ] by which it can be moved to the article namespace." ] is part of ], and I'm not ]. | |||
| ::The fact that about 10% of your page moves have resulted one way or another in deletion, and that you nominated a page for deletion at AfD after you moved it from the userspace to the mainspace because you disliked the standards of MfD (<small>By my count approx. have been deleted so far this year that you moved to the mainspace. That's about 10%. This (move summary: "move to mainspace to subject to AfD to test notability- claims at MfD that GNG does not apply are too annoying") and </small>), calls into question whether your actions were in ]. | |||
| :"If really do not like a page, take it to AfD, don't stealth delete it in a way that is not easy to fix." | |||
| ::I neither like nor dislike the pages, and that is not a reason to take something to ]. That aside: if the pages are in a state that they can be reasonably taken to AfD, then the page move was improper, as pages should not be moved unless they ] (i.e. meet the ]). As such the page moves should be reverted and the proper forum to seek deletion would be ]. I did not "stealth delete" pages, I reverted some page moves. | |||
| :So, I'll ask those reading this thread to take your statements with a ] at the least, and I won't be responding to any more of your falsehoods here.<small>—]<sup>(]</sup><sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">])</sub></small> 02:41, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| There is a user at the 27.55.xxx.xxx range that is repeatedly adding unsourced and invalid information to UK rail articles. The primary problem is the addition of a Maximum Speed to steam locomotives - steam locomotives in the UK did not really have a formal maximum speed, so this parameter is not used in these circumstances. As the user is hopping between IPs, it's proving nearly impossible to leave adequate warnings on talk pages, and as noted at AIV a rangeblock would affect a large number of innocent good faith users. Is there a way forward here, or is it a case of whack-a-mole? | |||
| * Ffs, {{user|Legacypac}}, it's enough. We've seen enough of your bullshit, man. I cordially invite you to form an ArbCom case request, if it pleases you but stop making revenge threads about every other person who has the guts to oppose you. Forever and evermore, thine. --<span style="font-family:'Tahoma',Geneva,sans-serif">] <small>(] ☕ ])</small></span> 05:45, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| * Ok, for the people who oppose Legacypac, what's the next step? Is there an actual plan here beyond just dragging this back here and again with accusations? There's been topic ban proposals, admonishment proposals, and now wholesale reverts of the moves. None of the proposed sanctions seem to have actual support so we're left again with people making accusations. Of course I've been accused of either collaborating or coordinating or colluding or something else so I'll wait for that as well. If Legacypac takes the pages to MFD, will we will be back here again for "gaming" because he's mass-listing these at MFD? And no, yelling and screaming that he should go away is not an actual solution here so please provide some idea of what people are supposed to do. I think everyone agrees that moving pages to mainspace is fine in concept so can someone point to a policy that explicitly says when it is appropriate? -- ] (]) 06:03, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :: No, moving pages that will clearly not survive in mainspace is not fine. That has been, time and again, been cleared out by admins and non-admins alike. Not to mention, you and a couple of others who are overreaching NOTWEBHOST to delete drafts by saying, Misplaced Pages's not an indefinite place for storage of data when the actual policy says something altogether. Again, it's him against policy, not me. Moreover, this thread was just meant for '''revenge'''. Needless to say, everyone's tired of his pointless charades and if he thinks he's right, he can take the ]. --<span style="font-family:'Tahoma',Geneva,sans-serif">] <small>(] ☕ ])</small></span> 06:55, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::: So '''you''' get to determine that they aren't going to survive in mainspace and that's enough? ] page seemed like a perfectly fine stub for mainspace to me. And I'm certain there's no policy that says people can unilterally move stuff back into userspace just because they don't like the person who did it. At the very least Godsy could have combined them into a single AFD and discussed them to let other people decide. -- ] (]) 07:06, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{reply to|Ricky81682}} You do realize {{ph|User:Akivah/Yeshivat Rambam Maimonides Academy|the references were added after I reverted the move}}, correct?<small>—]<sup>(]</sup><sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">])</sub></small> 07:11, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: Ok, I stand corrected on that one. -- ] (]) 07:27, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: 10/10 Legacypac trying to clear his image because he was the one who moved the unsuitable draft in the first place. --<span style="font-family:'Tahoma',Geneva,sans-serif">] <small>(] ☕ ])</small></span> 07:41, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I wouldn't have listed the pages at ] because per what I can derive from ] that is the improper forum. If the pages could be reasonably listed there, the page moves themselves are improper, and as such the proper forum would be ].<small>—]<sup>(]</sup><sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">])</sub></small> 07:54, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| * I don't mean to offend anyone, but I do wish to be blunt. This is essentially reopening the other discussion, which was closed reasonably. While I don't necessarily agree with the reasoning for Legacypac's moves, moving them BACK to Userspace without discussion is definitely disruptive and possibly even ] behaviour, especially so soon after the prior ANI discussion was closed. If you really can't work it out without fighting and disrupting the encyclopedia, then I think, at the very least, there should be an interaction ban here or at the very least a voluntary Wiki-break for the involved persons also. Please realize that this really isn't that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things, even if no one gets their own way here. Getting into these heated discussions only hurts Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 06:29, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :*{{reply to|Chrisw80}} I reverted a few of the moves that were problematic and improper (approx. 10/250, less than 5% of the moves). {{noping|Legacypac}} moved them ], so I think it was ] a few that clearly had issues (one of the ]). If I had reverted the moves without being super selective or en masse, I could understand your position. Regardless, you are entitled to your opinion. Just making sure you had some information that is vital, as there is a lot to read across all the discussions. Respectfully,<small>—]<sup>(]</sup><sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">])</sub></small> 06:54, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{reply to|Godsy}} That information is important, and it does moderate my opinion somewhat, but it doesn't change it materially. Thank you for replying and for the information. Best wishes. ] (]) 07:05, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::* The bold moves were discussed before and I think the consensus was that, other than the accusations, the discussion was haywire. Now, I took the problematic ones I saw to AFD and for that was accused of being in collusion for asking if the move was actually appropriate. So is the result (a) we can't leave them alone and (b) we can't discuss the mainspace pages via AFD and (c) all that can be done is unilateral reversions of page moves? That's not a recipe for resolution. -- ] (]) 07:13, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::*So as an admin, you're telling me making unilateral moves are fine but unilaterally reverting them is not? --<span style="font-family:'Tahoma',Geneva,sans-serif">] <small>(] ☕ ])</small></span> 12:43, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::* {{reply|QEDK}} Aren't these basically CSD criteria applied in mainspace? That's the admin role. Userification is done by admins, we don't generally allow people to just unilaterally take mainspace pages and forcibly move them without discussion at all. Seems strange to say that these pages can be moved back into a variety of userspaces without ''any'' discussion at all, especially when the '''last''' ANI discussion resulted in no action. -- ] (]) 18:23, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Well, he was ], hope you got ''no'' problem with that, since you were fine elsewhere. And, there's no '''rule''' that says userfication cannot be done by non-admins. You do realize '''everything''' was done without any discussion, so why do you just keep citing just one side of the whole story. As an admin, you should have already taken the responsibility and closed all of Legacypac's revenge threads, his attempts at throwing dirt on people (I counted three including me) are quite uninteresting to watch. --<span style="font-family:'Tahoma',Geneva,sans-serif">] <small>(] ☕ ])</small></span> 18:32, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::: Ok, that was argued before, got no action as the close. Clearly that's irrelevant because it was reverted anyway and now we're here again on the other side about the reverting. We aren't going to have move wars and proposals to topic ban/admonish/whatever were all rejected. If this results in no action again, is anyone actually going to move on? The proposals now are to stop all of MFD which is absurd or to "stop" a project which is equally odd. -- ] (]) 19:59, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Diffs: | |||
| {{archive top|status=]|Clearly not happening. ] (]) 21:46, 29 March 2016 (UTC)}} | |||
| * {{user|27.55.93.62}} - {{diff2|1268535786}} | |||
| === Suspend all of MFD === | |||
| * {{user|27.55.83.83}} - {{diff2|1268296480}} & {{diff2|1268295870}} | |||
| There is one solution here: '''suspend all of MFD and any movement/deletion of any userspace drafts until there is a clear consensus of what to do'''. <small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 06:08, 29 March 2016 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| * {{user|27.55.79.100}} - {{diff2| 1267871857}} | |||
| *'''Oppose''' as patently ridiculous. There are plenty of solutions to this other than suspending MfD. A suitable compromise can be made here. ] (]) 06:19, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| * {{user|27.55.70.101}} - {{diff2| 1267858727}}, {{diff2| 1267858319}} & {{diff2| 1267859313}} | |||
| * Suspension of WP:WikiProject abandoned drafts would be more like it. --] (]) 06:25, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| * {{user|27.55.68.32}} - {{diff2| 1267728237}}. | |||
| ::Also patently ridiculous as it would not address the issue at hand. What we do need is more help over at MfD by experienced editors and admins. ] (]) 06:34, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::: No, ], that's not right. Currently MfD has more active participants than it ever had. The recent MfD battles, messy as they were, albeit continuing, have shifted the battlefront to creative (GAMING) issues of liberal CSDing, sometimes explicit reference to IAR, and unilateral moves of userpage drafts to mainspace or draftspace. While many of the moves are good or fair actions, some are not, and the activities have gotten ahead of policy documentation. I suggest suspension to allow for the policy development. --] (]) 09:50, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::: I'd say the fact that the MFD header and ] keeps getting changed (so much that UP was protected) and then those changes are being used as allegedly "policy changes" at MFD shows is more gaming than anything else. Screaming that everyone involved is scheming together without evidence and demanding that we stop all of this in favor of new discussions after you ] looks more like you're just creating stalling tactics until everyone else is either topic banned or so frustrated they go away. There's a line between actual disagreement and massively being obstructionist. -- ] (]) 19:59, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' - Does more harm than good.<small>—]<sup>(]</sup><sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">])</sub></small> 07:00, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *{{facepalm}} Hell no. Once we get a full-blown draft MfD discussion rolling I am hopeful that Legacypac will curtail nominating behavior that might disrupt that discussion. If not we can revisit the MfD topic ban idea proposed in the previous thread. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 07:41, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Cheers, ] (]) 10:30, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Seems the only answer is to continue playing w-a-m until our Thai friend gets bored. ] (]) 11:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === Suspension and dissolution of Abandoned Drafts WikiProject === | |||
| Ok if we aren't going to shut down MFD, then the next solution is '''to shut down the Abandoned Drafts project and suspend all MFD discussions regarding userspace drafts.''' Any project this far off the rails needs to be eliminated completely. ] (]) 07:18, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''': Too draconian. When and if we get a proposal discussion actually going we can agree to temporarily suspend draft MfDs during the pendency of that discussion, but that should only happen if that discussion is disrupted, and should only persist temporarily. The abandoned drafts project '''is not the problem'''. The problem is a lack of clear, realistic policy guidance on article drafts. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 07:45, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Can anyone point out an actual problem with the wikiproject itself? This is coming from someone who is experienced with ]. It was merely taking ] and making it a static table. Other than that, the project has basically been dead since 2011. -- ] (]) 08:25, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :: "Can anyone point out an actual problem with the wikiproject itself?". Yes. It is small and specific. It has listed a lot of old drafts with a implication that something should be done to reduce or even eliminate the list. There is clearly not consensus for that. Sure, many of the listed pages are delectable under G* criteria, others are good to move to mainspace, but the set of intended drafts of unclear potential are being subjected to actions that were not discussed and are now disputed. A little time to discuss a proper guideline please. Dissolution is overkill. Suspension for a week or two? --] (]) <small class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added 09:55, 29 March 2016 (UTC)</small><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| :::I'm not quite there yet. I think that if the noms continue on unabated '''once we have a discussion kicked off''', then absolutely call for a temporary moratorium on staledraft noms (it's not like they're going anywhere). Until it's clear something's happening it'd be premature to ask for a halt to noms, but the tradeoff (in my view) is that once something's clearly happening we might call for something involuntary, from targeted bans from listing drafts at MfD up to a broad halt of the MfD process, to compel discussion. The listers are at least justified in not wanting to stop before a concrete discussion emerges since it's entirely possible nothing will emerge once the pressure is off. But, again, once something emerges the listing should stop, either until a proposal emerges and is adopted, or until discussion is hopelessly deadlocked. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 11:59, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'll do it after my vacation is over or someone else can. No problem. I guess, the temporary moratorium can start from now? --<span style="font-family:'Tahoma',Geneva,sans-serif">] <small>(] ☕ ])</small></span> 12:40, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::So the problem is that it has a ''list'' of old userspace drafts? Should the category be deleted? Should all the categories at ] be deleted or suspended? The Oldest People project was a decade of chaos with Arbcom cases and no one considered suspending or deleting that. -- ] (]) 18:20, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| '''THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH USERSPACE DRAFTS. THE ENTIRE PROJECT MUST BE DELETED NOW''' There is no reason for anyone to care about whatever people did in their userspace, it is THEIR space after that! <small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 18:03, 29 March 2016 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| : How about no? -- ] (]) 18:20, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' as this has been clearly labeled as housekeeping, no need to continue fighting about this. ] ] 21:09, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :: DESTROYING ARTICLES WITHOUT THOUGHT is not housekeeping. | |||
| {{archive bottom}} | |||
| ::I've created an edit filter, ], to detect IPs in that range editing articles that contain {{tl|infobox locomotive}}. I've set it just to log for the moment; let's see what it catches. — ] (]) 12:31, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === Request for closure === | |||
| Can this be closed now? I don't think anyone is suggesting that an admin re-move these pages back into mainspace and I don't think anyone here actually has a serious proposal on what to do. The demands on a moratorium don't really seem to have consensus and we shouldn't just wait around until QEDK's vacation is over or the like. There's been numerous discussions going on with changes to a number of policies and numerous MFD discussions as well. There's clearly disagreement on what should be done but regardless of all this chaos, there's been no discussions taken to DRV for any further analyses so I'm presuming that the closings and resolutions afterwards are at the very least not worth fighting. We still need someone to close the RFCs regarding relistings at ] so that can be resolved and just more eyes at MFD would be helpful. -- ] (]) 23:41, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| == Persistent addition of unsourced content by 78.135.166.12 == | |||
| : <s>Screw it. Don't close this. Let's just have round five of this idiocy continue on and have everyone pile on. What's the next proposal, indefinite bans all around? -- ] (]) 09:53, 30 March 2016 (UTC)</s> | |||
| :: Sorry, I'm letting the antics get to me. It seems as though this can be closed as there's nothing further to do if people considered Legacypac's page-moves as inappropriately ] in the first place. I'd prefer we have a policy where mass unilateral reversions were not done and instead the pages could be discussed each but that's not happening at the moment.-- ] (]) 18:09, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| {{userlinks|78.135.166.12}} - Keeps adding unsourced content to articles, continued after final warning & hasn't responded to warnings. Examples of addition of unsourced content: {{diff|Aardman Animations|prev|1267727350|1}}, {{diff|Aardman Animations|prev|1267781677|2}}, {{diff|Aardman Animations|prev|1268129045|3}}, {{diff|Miramax|prev|1268143287|4}} (addition of content not in pre-existing source, Pixar not mentioned), {{diff|Aardman Animations|prev|1268538057|5}}. ] (]) 16:30, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === Proposal === | |||
| :These 166 IPs are obviously trolls, and I would love if admins could block them for a week or so after they leave a comment like this. They seem to have gotten under Ricky's skin, and clearly aren't making reasonable suggestions. ] (]) 11:02, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::See . That range seems to be a magnet for abuse. <span style="text-shadow:7px 5px 7px maroon">-- ] <sup><span style="font-size:80%">]</span></sup></span> 20:04, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yeah, I'd noticed this. I thought I saw someone reverting a 166' IP's !vote at an MfD as being by a banned user... if so, anybody have any idea who the banned user is? —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 06:25, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::: I think there have been multiple bans/ban proposals for 166 editors. See ] for one of the bans. — ] <small>(]'''·'''])</small> 06:48, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Oh, look at that. I vaguely remember that discussion now that I've seen it. Wonder if it's time for a LTA page. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 07:44, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Now Godsy is DRV'ing to restore a stale draft promotional article. ] This editor is hell bent on reversing cleanup. ] (]) 17:45, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| : To be fair, I think Godsy has a point. The wrong method to the right result here. -- ] (]) 23:39, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :: I agree, most of these old drafts need to be processed, many deleted, but the wrong method has been implement. The WP:BRD principle applies, bold implementation objected to, so stop, discussion how to proceed. | |||
| :: Also agree on the 166.x.x.x problem. I don't know what he has got against Ricky, but he is using all unrelated opportunities to abuse Ricky. Ricky is doing well to remain as calm as he is, 166.x.x.x is most definitely not helping with anything. --] (]) 23:52, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::FYI, I've been collecting some info on this troll for some time. See for just some of the info I've gathered from AN / ANI, which I used to frame the ban proposal. The most prolific 166 troll is one that has been hounding Ricky for months. A few other banned users are also in that range. The most likely banned user that is doing all the hounding is Kochtruth who has ome run ins with Ricky before being indef'd. Since then, any time there is a thread involving Ricky, the 166 troll will show up to stir shit. Editors not familiar with their MO will respond in good faith but in general, it's safe to RBI them ] (]) 01:15, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| == Persistent violation of established consensus on McLaren Driver Development Programme == | |||
| == John Carter continuing to post on my talk page despite repeated warnings not to == | |||
| {{atop|1=OP has ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 00:03, 11 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| ] is one of many motorsport-related articles that includes sections listing which racing championships drivers have won. Historically, these sections have only included season-long racing series championships, not simply the winners of notable races. However, ], ], and ] have persistently tried to list winning the ] as a "title." I have addressed this and explained the consensus multiple times, and repeatedly asked for them to return to the page to the consensus and start a discussion about changing that consensus, but all have refused and have insisted persisted with continually reverting the page. ] specifically has engaged in edit warring and personal attacks as well. All I am asking is that the page be reverted to consensus, without the one single race included as if it is a season-long championship, and then we can discuss why or why not to add it. All have refused. I don't think this ever needed to be escalated to the admins but literally everyone else involved has refused to have a simple discussion about this. I really don't understand their behavior. Personally I believe this change would significantly impact dozens of articles and would require larger discussions at the WikiProject level, but again, it does not seem like others are willing to have this discussion. ] (]) 17:36, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*'''Comment''': the relevant talk page discussion can be found . No "personal attacks" were exchanged. Instead, ] and I have tried to urge the user above to seek consensus peacefully instead of and ''imposing'' their views. The user cites an "informal consensus" but has been unable to its existence. | |||
| {{User|John Carter}} recently logged out and posted on my talk page, even though he knows I am uncomfortable with him posting there unless he is specifically required to do so. Almost a year ago, I told him to stay off the page, and he by-and-large obliged, but then in the past 24 hours he attempted to get around this by (the IP is ). His other recent (logged-in) edits indicate that he is following me. Can I get an interaction ban? Or at least a warning to John Carter that following my edits and posting on my talk page while logged out is inappropriate? ] (<small>]]</small>) 03:41, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :] (]) 17:59, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :{{ec}}{{u|Lazer-kitty}}, this looks like a content dispute. The steps for resolving such disputes are listed at ]. I think you would find it very difficult to pursue this dispute here, but first you would need ]s showing bad conduct by others, and your conduct would also be looked at. ] (]) 17:59, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{u|Phil Bridger}} I mean, scroll up. The guy literally just attacked me and accused me of making threats and trying to impose my views, both of which are false. It was absolutely just a content dispute until they started behaving that way. ] (]) 18:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{u|Lazer-kitty}}, your second comment at ] was {{tpq|First off, apologize immediately for your insults above. These are completely uncalled for.}} There were no insults and such a rapid escalation of aggression is inexplicable. Forced apologies are worthless. Then, you described this routine and mundane content dispute as "vandalism" even though you presented no evidence of deliberate intent to {{tpq|obstruct or defeat the project's purpose}}, which is required for a valid accusation of vandalism. It looks to me like you are being far too aggressive here, and so I recommend that you adopt a more collaborative attitude. ] (]) 18:06, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Yes, that comment was in response to {{tpq|I kindly urge you to cut down your condescending tone and edit warring, or external measures could be taken.}} You don't consider that insulting? I do. I was not being condescending, I sincerely tried my best to be polite, nor was I edit warring. Literally all I want to do is be collaborative and they all refuse. I have asked for collaboration numerous times! ] (]) 18:08, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::No, that's not an insult. You're talking down to other editors, which can feel condescending to them. I strongly urge you to dial it back and engage in creating a new, solid consensus around this topic. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 18:37, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Reading through the talk page is pretty bizarre - Lazer-kitty is insisting their opinion is consenus against 3 editors who disagree with them. I know nothing about motorsport but to me this is evidence that consensus is against LK, not with them as they claim. I think this earns a trout for opening this filing, the misunderstanding of the concept of consensus, and for battleground behaviour - but there's nothing here that needs admin attention. ] ] 18:30, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Thanks to everyone involved for bullying off me this platform. Never in my life did I expect that 20 years of editing would end with being gaslit by multiple admins and editors. Really appreciate your efforts in killing this encyclopedia. My only hope is that one day someone forks Misplaced Pages into a new encyclopedia with competent oversight, i.e. people who can see through obvious trolling and bad faith actions, and who don't rely on aggressive tone policing to make their judgements. ] (]) 19:22, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :{{nacc}} The filer appears to have ]. —] ( ] • ] ) 19:57, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :As multiple people have pointed out, you are seriously overreacting. Your behaviour is completely disproportionate to the content dispute you are involved in. You only have yourself to look at there. If this is how you react to people disagreeing with you, you are the one with a serious problem. ]]]1 20:18, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Engage01: ad hominem personal attacks and one against many == | |||
| :I just read those diffs and I don't see anything abusive or harassing. Can you point out to me where John has done anything inappropriate towards you? ] 03:47, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::John Carter engaged in a pretty aggressive harassment campaign against me and ] between April and November 2015, but I don't want to discuss it. I am under ] with another user involved in the case, and the whole story was pretty unpleasant to begin with. But its zenith was probably ] ] concurrent and baseless ANI threads he started against us. | |||
| ::Anyway, I thought it was my prerogative to unilaterally ban John Carter from posting on my talk page if I am uncomfortable interacting with him -- isn't it? He has done the same to me. In this case he didn't just "forget", because he logged out to do so. Further, he followed me to WT:BIBLE, and while nothing in his comments either there or on my talk page was itself harassment, he knows I don't want him stalking my edits or my talk page and has continued to do so. | |||
| ::] (<small>]]</small>) 04:01, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::IP editor does appear to be John Carter. John Carter hadn't edited on the WikiProject:Bible since October 2015, whereas Hijiri88 has been rather active this past month. John then comments on the RfC one day after Hijiri (). Indeed John Carter hadn't edited since January 14, 2016 until this RfC edit. My understanding is that if a user "bans" you from their talk page, editing on it outside of required notifications is considered HARASSMENT. That and the following to the RfC seems like HOUNDing to me. ] ] <small>Please {{]}}</small> 04:28, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::No comment on the ban, but the time frame you sort of hint at seems to be a key point here. Considering John Carter indeed hasn't edited since January until recently and the edits happened after the edits to the talk page, saying they " "logged out and posted on my talk page" and "logged out to do so" is unproven. It's just as likely they hadn't been logged in for a while. Particularly since it would be fairly dumb to use an IP who's last edit was to a case page involving and naming Hijiri88. Since Hijiri88 had asked them to stay away (regardless of what that should mean) and I guess there must have been historic disagreements to result in this, it's unfortunate John Carter didn't either log in or declare who they were. However in absence of better evidence there was any intentional attempt at hiding who they were, I don't think not being logged in is particularly relevant other than a firm reminder to John Carter that they should either login or make it clear who they are in the edit if they are going to get re-involved in previous disputes. ] (]) 05:01, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::{{ping|Nil Einne}} The question of whether JC consciously logged out with the intention of avoiding detection is peripheral; I only mentioned it because otherwise someone would have asked me how I know the IP is him. I told JC to stay off my talk page and he came back, several times. His logged-in edits are almost as bad: he posted twice on a page he hadn't edited since June 2014 (subpages do not count), once in a thread I started, and once a thread someone else started about my proposal. I don't want this user posting on my talk page or following my edits, and I want an formal, mutual IBAN; John Carter said several times (admittedly last year) that he would be comfortable with such an IBAN; if a two-way IBAN is mutually acceptable, isn't this an open-shut case? Bringing up peripheral concerns about sockpuppetry is as far as I can tell pointless. (I did allude to my suspicions of deliberate sockpuppetry both on my talk page and in my notifications to JC, but I consciously avoided it in my OP comment here, because I knew it would turn into a red herring.) ] (<small>]]</small>) 05:52, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose IBAN''' I am not seeing anything mean spirited here. The links you give show John either talking about articles or explaining how Misplaced Pages works. You "banning him" from your talk page seems to be in response to reasonable comments. If we are to CBAN based on two people being in the same places then we need a lot more evidence than has been presented. ] 15:07, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *] is relevant here (though sadly underdeveloped even as far as essays go). Telling someone to keep off your user talk page is rarely helpful, and when done unreasonably, can lead to non-enforcement of that "ban". —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 15:12, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :*Indeed. If you don't have a good reason to tell someone to go away then it is hardly harassment if they say something to you later. Harassment involves being harassing, not just failing to obey some made up restraining order. In both of those links where you tell John to go away the comments being made are measured and reasonable. ] 15:16, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{ping|HighInBC}} He showed up at an ANI thread I started about his friend and deliberately misrepresented the dispute by pretending it was already under discussion on DRN. He engaged in off-wiki contact with ... someone who apparently really doesn't like me and then when I asked if it was the same site-banned user who had been posting my personal information all over the internet (and was at that time still actively engaged in emailing anyone who got in a dispute with me on Misplaced Pages, from a sock account -- email me if you want the details) he repeatedly misrepresented what I was saying as "of course someone without a publicly disclosed email must be engaged in sockpuppetry" (???) even though I explained my concern to him over and over again. He suddenly showed up on an article I was in the middle of rewriting and started trolling the hell out of me over one word in the lead, despite multiple users telling him to cut it out, and then when he didn't get his way on the talk page he opened an ANI thread (again: you say he was discussing article content, but ANI is not the place for that). Half the time I cannot make head or tail about what his beef is with me, and the only reason I can think of is that he is deliberately being antagonistic. When I told him to stay off my talk page he didn't until told more firmly to stay off, and then he came back again later, while logged out, and posted an inane non-sequitur apparently just to get another rise out of me (seriously -- look at what ] and I were discussing, and then try to figure out what JC's contribution to the discussion was; if you can, then you understand the content of my talk page better than I do). And he has been stalking my edits to boot! What more evidence do you need? ] (<small>]]</small>) 23:58, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| * I wasn't convinced when Hijiri first started telling me that JC was hounding him, but after a couple of months of seeing him showing up everywhere—and often making bizarre comments like the one pointed out here—I'm convinced. I have no idea what a solution is, but I'm positive that he didn't show up at Hijiri's talk page to honestly be helpful—he obviously dislikes Hijirii too much. ] <span style="color:red">🍁</span> ] 11:17, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. More dispute resolution could be a good idea, perhaps with a mediator or request for comment format. Also, essentially agree with analysis by {{u|HighInBC}}, at , above. Cheers, — ''']''' (]) 15:21, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{ping|Cirt}} Dispute resolution about '''what'''? John Carter and I do not edit in the same areas, and even in those topics areas where there is a very slight overlap (I edit articles on biblical, Jewish and Christian topics, and JC very occasionally posts on these talk pages) the problem is not that we have a disagreement on content. John Carter followed me around for most of 2015 and reverted a bunch of my edits and caused massive ruckuses on talk pages and here on ANI, and I asked that he stay off of my talk page. He has refused to do so, while hypocritically imposing such a "stay away" restriction on me. How on earth would "dispute resolution" solve an issue where there is no dispute other than a non-productive editor hounding a productive one? Further, if both John Carter and I want an IBAN (I think JC's last comment on the issue was , but he might have said the same thing more recently), why should one not be put in place? ] (<small>]]</small>) 02:03, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| {{User|Engage01}} has been arguing to include an incredibly lengthy quote in ]. Upon my removal of the quote and suggestion to bring it to the talk page, they've begun a large-scale argument that me and most other editors that disagree with the addition of the quote as lacking competence, not understanding quality, or one-word "wrong" replies. Consensus is clearly against them but instead of coming up with actual policy-based reasons for every other editor !voting in the poll they set up (all in favor of not having the quote) they've chose to accuse us of not understanding policy or not seeing that the individual in question is important in the matter enough to deserve a long quote. They haven't been around for long, and have gotten multiple warnings for personal attack-type language in the conversation. I've been asked by them to "remove myself from the conversation" and they suggested I was "learning while you edit" while not understanding ]. I don't have time to add any diffs (all the comments are still live) except for ], them blanking their talk page, and ] a few minutes later, where they keep their argument at "I can't understand how editors can misapply "undue weight."". This could be a severe case of ] with the blanking. I'm hoping whoever sees this can at least get them to cut out their personal attacks. Cheers. ] (]) 19:16, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Proposal''': Semi-protect Hijiri's TP longterm, officially warn John Carter that if he posts on Hijiri's TP again he will be blocked. Any discussion worth having can occur on article talk pages or other Misplaced Pages space. ] (]) 02:10, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *{{User|John Carter}}, if that's you posting on Hijiri's talk page, please stop. You were asked not to and you have no choice but to obey. If you persist, you will be blocked--it counts as harassment. Thanks, ] (]) 03:19, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :I thought I removed the quote first, but it was removed again by Departure. Nevertheless this user has made personal attacks on my User talk page as well. I posted two warnings and on their talk page but Engage01 just very quickly. I wish to ] but this user started a new section on my talk page (linked above) to argue about "undue weight" which is something I don't recall mentioning at all in this situation. | |||
| == Renewed trolling on ] and ] == | |||
| :I remember now. I from the body of the article to inside the citation but I had a feeling that it was only a gradual stage before it would be fully removed by ]. Thank you for bringing this to the ANI. ] (]) 19:26, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I've pblocked them for one week from the article and its talk page for disruptive editing, personal attacks, incivility, and bludgeoning. ] (]) 19:40, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::The method of engagement at that talk page is really poor. I've closed the section now that the editor has been p-blocked, no need to continue to sink time into it. ] (]) 20:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I know they're partially blocked from that page, but I went through their edit history and I found ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] different diffs of them adding the quote in question into the article (at least 7 of which were after it had been removed), and I think that constitutes edit warring. They never got notice for violating 3RR but they ''very clearly'' did. Maybe the block from the Palisades Fire should be extended or expanded? I've seen worse sanctions for less disruption. ] (]) 20:26, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ==Problems with Pipera== | |||
| An individual with a many-year long bizarre fixation for trolling {{article|Constellation Brands}} and {{article|Accolade Wines}} is at it again. This is a combination of vandalism / edit warring / socking so I'm bring it up here. The latest accounts: | |||
| {{atop|1=Pipera blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:55, 10 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| *{{userlinks|Wikiecontrols}} | |||
| *{{userlinks| |
*{{userlinks|Pipera}} | ||
| I've tried to avoid bringing this here, but I've reached the point where I cannot keep dealing with {{user|Pipera}}. They continue to add unsourced and unrelated information to articles, refuse to take on formatting advice, continue to assert that they know better than the reliable sources in articles, and continue to post walls of text on talk pages that do not help with collaborative editing.<p> | |||
| *{{userlinks|Talatte120}} | |||
| I've listed some illustrative diffs below along with explanations where needed. I've tried to be concise but it's difficult at times to explain the issues. There are more problems I've got documented, but I tried to not overwhelm this filing.<p> | |||
| *{{userlinks|Winestories}} | |||
| I'm concerned that Pipera does not understand what wikipedia is for and what we do - their continual references to the fact that they are a descendant of the article subjects and that they know through their own research that historians or scholars are wrong, is a big problem and they have not taken explanations of what we do here (as opposed to a genealogical research site) on board. Their continual sourcing problems - removing sources, adding unsourced information, arguing that sites like WikiTree are reliable, arguing that they know better than the reliable sources, and, worst, the changing of sourced information to say something different than what the source actually says - all these are big red-flag issues. Explanations of how they have issues have been met with either no-engagement with the points raised or walls of text. I also have ] concerns as they seem unable to edit without formatting, grammar, and other issues.<p> | |||
| Admins have been periodically indeffing the socks and semi-protecting the articles. In 2014 there was {{userlinks|Trojanhorse112}} and looking back, various others. Blocking these accounts doesn't do a whole lot of good because they keep creating new ones. A range block perhaps? Plus time for medium-duration semi-protecting the articles. No point notifying the trolls. Thanks, - ] (]) 04:29, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| As for a solution, I'm open to suggestions. A topic ban from medieval biographies would probably solve the current problem, but I'm not sure that will not just move the problem elsewhere. If someone would volunteer to mentor Pipera, that might work, but I've exhausted my good faith already in the last month, and it would need to be someone with a lot of patience, and I'm not sure the CIR issues won't just show up somewhere else. | |||
| ::There's a lot of ] going on. The newest incarnation is | |||
| * ] at ] Pipera changes sourced information to have it say something that the source does not quite say, adds information that is unrelated to the subject of the article, along with grammar issues. I pointed out the problems with these edits on the ] which got a ] that repeated parts of the article and frankly, I'm not sure what they meant to convey with it. | |||
| ::*{{user|WikiBigdemon}}, which seems to be impersonating {{user|wikidemon}} and is less than civil | |||
| * ] at ], Pipera removes sources from sourced information, adds unsourced information, and generally mucks up the text and formatting. After being reverted by an editor and re-adding their edits, they post ]. I documented the problems with their edits ], but they were never addressed. | |||
| ::I think ] may be a better venue. ] (]) 11:37, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| * ] At ], Pipera adds a citation needed tag to an already cited sentence, one cited to the '']''. | |||
| :::SPI is bureaucratic and process-bound. We know exactly what the issue is, nothing to investigate. What can be accomplished there? - ] (]) 13:40, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| * ] at ], Pipera changes Enguerrand's offspring from a daughter to a daughter and son, removing the sourced statement that Enguerrand had no male offspring, and changing his brother and successor Guy into a son instead. This is done while keeping the three sources that previously supported Guy as a brother, not a son. One of the attached sources is Musset p. 104, which can be accessed at the Internet Archive See talk page where a discussion about another source that supports Enguerrand as having no male offspring is dismissed as "There are a number of updated versions the work" but without substantiating such a claim. | |||
| ::::Ok. (assuming the question is rhetorical). Attention was payed, things got reverted, so it's time to close this request. ] (]) 14:42, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| * ] at ] Pipera copies an earlier section of the article into a new place without removing it at the older location so that now the article repeats the section starting "Katherine Keats-Rohan argues instead...". This series of edits also adds unsourced information and removes sourced information. I ] with the statement "remove repetition and restore sources to information" but was ] with the edit summary "Undid revision 1267745167 by Ealdgyth (talk) sorry this is my family tree and I know what was placed here is correct". There are further edits to this article ] and then a discussion on the talk page about what they ] actually turns out to be a charter. I ] on the talk page, and that got a flurry of replies on the ] just don't make any sense to me. Maybe they are upset that some historians might think Sibyl was illegitimate? They keep saying things like "They state Sybil of Falaise might have been yet another b######d." which took me a bit to realize that they were censoring "bastard". Note that the article still in places calls this charter a "will" and says that "In the charter of William de Falaise, he bequeaths everything to his wife Geva." However, Pipera at ] claims to translate the charter and their translation says nothing about William bequeathing everything to his wife - it's a standard gift-charter giving some property to a church, with his wife mentioned as also giving the property along with William. This raises serious issues about Pipera's ability to read and understand sources and use them appropriately. | |||
| :::::It wasn't meant to be rhetorical — but Floquenbeam answered it, below. I really don't want to provoke this person. Their behavior and language seem obsessive and irrational, and I do't want them fixating on me and my Misplaced Pages presence the way they have on this company. - ] (]) 15:31, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| * ] Pipera adds unsourced information as well as a long series of genealogical descents to an article about a 12th-century nobleman, much of the information is not really related to the subject of the article. | |||
| *I semiprotected the two articles for a year. I can block these 4-5 accounts, but as mentioned above, this person seems fairly motivated, and will probably keep creating new accounts and getting them autoconfirmed. SPI allows a more structured way to keep track of future socks, and flag the attention of a checkuser when needed; I'd agree an SPI would be helpful. --] (]) 14:55, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| * ] at ] Pipera changes sourced information without updating the source, removing the "probably" from "probably was the son", and making it a categorical statement that Richard was the son of Robert de Courcy. | |||
| :Thanks. If it happens, I hope it's possible to do so without alerting them to the SPI or my initiating it (see above). - ] (]) 15:31, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| * ] at ] Pipera removes sources from information and adds unsourced information. I ] with an edit summary of "Restore sources to information, no need for this heading, and we do not need a list here" but was ] with the edit summary "with all due respect we have this everywhere in Misplaced Pages, further it adds clarity to the entry. In my opinion. Further, added the name of Williams wife Avice to the entry BTW she is the daughter of the Earl of Skipton her mother is Cecily de Rumily they are my 23rd Great Grandparents". I then attempted to discuss at the talk page ] but this has been ignored. | |||
| ::The ] account seemed already fixated on you, which is not acceptable. I've blocked that one per the username policy. ] | ] 15:35, 30 March 2016 (UTC). | |||
| * 9/10 Jan 2025 at ] - I reply ] to a comment of theirs. Pipera ] with an edit summary of "Do not delete my tak page responses", but I did not delete any of their responses, I merely replied. Two edits later, they ] they had started, including the replies that I had made to them, pointing out problems, violating ]. | |||
| :::Agree with {{u|Kleuske}} and {{u|Floquenbeam}} that ] would help here to compile evidence and have a formatted regular process to gain checkuser eyes and maintain analysis of sockpuppets going forwards. — ''']''' (]) 16:12, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Pinging {{user|Eric}}, {{user|Celia Homeford}}, {{user|Ian Rose}}, {{user|Dudley Miles}}, {{user|Newm30}}, {{user|Andrew Lancaster}}, {{user|BusterD}}, and {{user|Paramandyr}} who have also dealt with this editor. ] (]) 20:47, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I've tried to avoid bringing this here, but I've reached the point where I cannot keep dealing with ] (] '''·''' ]). They continue to add unsourced and unrelated information to articles, refuse to take on formatting advice, continue to assert that they know better than the reliable sources in articles, and continue to post walls of text on talk pages that do not help with collaborative editing. | |||
| == Multiple problems with editor Cedric tsan cantonais == | |||
| :I've listed some illustrative diffs below along with explanations where needed. I've tried to be concise but it's difficult at times to explain the issues. There are more problems I've got documented, but I tried to not overwhelm this filing. | |||
| :I'm concerned that Pipera does not understand what wikipedia is for and what we do - their continual references to the fact that they are a descendant of the article subjects and that they know through their own research that historians or scholars are wrong, is a big problem and they have not taken explanations of what we do here (as opposed to a genealogical research site) on board. Their continual sourcing problems - removing sources, adding unsourced information, arguing that sites like WikiTree are reliable, arguing that they know better than the reliable sources, and, worst, the changing of sourced information to say something different than what the source actually says - all these are big red-flag issues. Explanations of how they have issues have been met with either no-engagement with the points raised or walls of text. I also have ] concerns as they seem unable to edit without formatting, grammar, and other issues. | |||
| :As for a solution, I'm open to suggestions. A topic ban from medieval biographies would probably solve the current problem, but I'm not sure that will not just move the problem elsewhere. If someone would volunteer to mentor Pipera, that might work, but I've exhausted my good faith already in the last month, and it would need to be someone with a lot of patience, and I'm not sure the CIR issues won't just show up somewhere else. | |||
| :* ] at ] Pipera changes sourced information to have it say something that the source does not quite say, adds information that is unrelated to the subject of the article, along with grammar issues. I pointed out the problems with these edits on the ] which got a ] that repeated parts of the article and frankly, I'm not sure what they meant to convey with it. | |||
| :That ha been reolved, | |||
| :* ] at ], Pipera removes sources from sourced information, adds unsourced information, and generally mucks up the text and formatting. After being reverted by an editor and re-adding their edits, they post ]. I documented the problems with their edits ], but they were never addressed. | |||
| :The page dealing with his children has yet to be resolved. | |||
| :* ] At ], Pipera adds a citation needed tag to an already cited sentence, one cited to the '']''. | |||
| :That has been resolved. | |||
| :* ] at ], Pipera changes Enguerrand's offspring from a daughter to a daughter and son, removing the sourced statement that Enguerrand had no male offspring, and changing his brother and successor Guy into a son instead. This is done while keeping the three sources that previously supported Guy as a brother, not a son. One of the attached sources is Musset p. 104, which can be accessed at the Internet Archive See talk page where a discussion about another source that supports Enguerrand as having no male offspring is dismissed as "There are a number of updated versions the work" but without substantiating such a claim. | |||
| :In regard to this matter see: ] which no one has replied to., | |||
| :* ] at ] Pipera copies an earlier section of the article into a new place without removing it at the older location so that now the article repeats the section starting "Katherine Keats-Rohan argues instead...". This series of edits also adds unsourced information and removes sourced information. I ] with the statement "remove repetition and restore sources to information" but was ] with the edit summary "Undid revision 1267745167 by Ealdgyth (talk) sorry this is my family tree and I know what was placed here is correct". There are further edits to this article ] and then a discussion on the talk page about what they ] actually turns out to be a charter. I ] on the talk page, and that got a flurry of replies on the ] just don't make any sense to me. Maybe they are upset that some historians might think Sibyl was illegitimate? They keep saying things like "They state Sybil of Falaise might have been yet another b######d." which took me a bit to realize that they were censoring "bastard". Note that the article still in places calls this charter a "will" and says that "In the charter of William de Falaise, he bequeaths everything to his wife Geva." However, Pipera at ] claims to translate the charter and their translation says nothing about William bequeathing everything to his wife - it's a standard gift-charter giving some property to a church, with his wife mentioned as also giving the property along with William. This raises serious issues about Pipera's ability to read and understand sources and use them appropriately. | |||
| :See: ]. And ]! | |||
| :* ] Pipera adds unsourced information as well as a long series of genealogical descents to an article about a 12th-century nobleman, much of the information is not really related to the subject of the article. | |||
| :* ] at ] Pipera changes sourced information without updating the source, removing the "probably" from "probably was the son", and making it a categorical statement that Richard was the son of Robert de Courcy. | |||
| :Richard was the son of Robert de Courcy, and his mother was named Herleva de Bernieres. His father was Balderic 'the Teuton' and an unnamed granddaughter of ] . He was one of nine children bound by this relationship. | |||
| :He actually is his son. | |||
| :* ] at ] Pipera removes sources from information and adds unsourced information. I ] with an edit summary of "Restore sources to information, no need for this heading, and we do not need a list here" but was ] with the edit summary "with all due respect we have this everywhere in Misplaced Pages, further it adds clarity to the entry. In my opinion. Further, added the name of Williams wife Avice to the entry BTW she is the daughter of the Earl of Skipton her mother is Cecily de Rumily they are my 23rd Great Grandparents". I then attempted to discuss at the talk page ] but this has been ignored. | |||
| : ] ] ] 5,529 bytes +76 ''Undid revision ] by ] (]) with all due respect we have this everywhere in Misplaced Pages, further it adds clarity to the entry. In my opinion. Further, added the name of Williams wife Avice to the entry BTW she is the daughter of the Earl of Skipton her mother is Cecily de Rumily they are my 23rd Great Grandparents.'' '']: ]'' | |||
| :* 9/10 Jan 2025 at ] - I reply ] to a comment of theirs. Pipera ] with an edit summary of "Do not delete my tak page responses", but I did not delete any of their responses, I merely replied. Two edits later, they ] they had started, including the replies that I had made to them, pointing out problems, violating ]. | |||
| :Proceedings by Somersetshire Archaeological and Natural History Society Publication date 1919 | |||
| :https://archive.org/details/proceedings65some/page/8/mode/1up?q=Sibyl<nowiki/>+ | |||
| :<nowiki>*</nowiki> Eyton, in his Domesday Studies, styles this " an old legend (we can call it no more) of the Welsh Marches We cannot imagine how Henry I. could have such a niece as this Sibil ; nor can we say how Sibil de Falaise was related to William de Falaise, or why she or her descendants should have succeeded to any of his estates." ] (]) 21:00, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support block''' <s>topic ban</s> possibly per nom. I've been watching the complete palaver that is ]—"]"!—with askance. Their talk page comments are ], and ] and they seem to delight in... misunderstanding. Repeatedly. If as Ealdgyth suggests, the TB proves insufficient, the this can be revisited, but in the meantime, it's worth a shot.{{pb}}I had an edit-confliuct posting this, due to Pipera posting above. And incidentally proving ''the actual point''. The reply is bizarre; they seem to have ] Ealdgyth's original post. They are completely incapable of communicating in a manner that is not disruptive. ]'']''] 21:10, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Changing my suggestion to a full block; their replies demonstrate they either don't understand what Misplaced Pages is for, and are unwilling to learn, or simply don't care. Either way, NOTHERE applies in spades. ]'']''] 21:53, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Talk:Henry I of England - Misplaced Pages https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Henry_I_of_England ] | |||
| :In regard to this matter, I was restoring an earlier version of the article. listing the children legitimate, illegitimate and mistress to the children section of the article. it was not my work it was the work of others that came here circa 2006 -7 that placed this here, and it was removed. | |||
| :I added: | |||
| :* ''Baldwin, Stewart (2002). . The American Society of Genealogists.'' | |||
| :I was told that this was an unreliable source when the work is on the American Society of Genealogists website, Baldwin is a writer of historic books. He is a valid source of information, further his work in the reference section shows some of the sources that are in the Misplaced Pages articles. | |||
| :I was told that WikiTree is a user generate source, Misplaced Pages is also a user generated source. | |||
| :Additionally, I was told that Alison Weir was not acceptable in the article. | |||
| :== Using these within a Misplaced Pages Article == | |||
| :] | |||
| :Broken up into: | |||
| :* ] | |||
| :* ] | |||
| :* ] | |||
| :There is no rule here stating that these cannot be used within any part of a Misplaced Pages entry. | |||
| :You also removed Alison Weir as a reference, explain to me why she was removed? ] (]) ] | |||
| :Regards ] (]) 21:17, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Finally, other genealogical sites like WikiTree have attempted to place the children of Henry I in the right place and manner, in other incidents globally people are now adding Henry I as the father of Sybil de Falaise based on the article here at Misplaced Pages. She is not the niece of Henry I whichever way this is stated, in relation to William Martin https://en.wikipedia.org/William_Martin,_1st_Baron_Martin#References this has been resolved, and yet on my talk page I went into great detail about the usage of the tag in two other Misplaced Pages articles. | |||
| :Also, I am academically qualified to read source materials like: | |||
| :: '''Robert of Torigni''' or '''Torigny''' (]: ''Robert de Torigni''; c. 1110–1186), also known as '''Robert of the Mont''' (]: ''Robertus de Monte''; ]: ''Robert de Monte''; also Robertus de Monte Sancti Michaelis, in reference to the abbey of Mont Saint-Michel), was a ] ], ], and ]. He is most remembered for his chronicles detailing English history of his era. | |||
| :: https://entities.oclc.org/worldcat/entity/E39PBJxhgfHcDqQdqcGCG7gh73.html and '''', and read their works and apply them to any historic context as I have in other genealogical sites as well as read Parish Registers in the 1500's and apply this to research. | |||
| :] (]) 21:31, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Please block this person now, any admin who sees this. I have lost count of the number of Misplaced Pages policies which they are intent on ignoring, and if swift action isn't taken this discission will be longer than the rest of this page put together. ] (]) 21:39, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I agree. ] (] - ] - ]) 21:46, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I agree. --] 21:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Because I came to Misplaced Pages to extend articles, add new information, rolled back and not one academic response. I have been given personal opinions of which I have taken on board. I have not gone into iny article with the intent to add incorrect information to the articles. I have been adding here since 2001, and decided to come into these articles to expand them. That is my intention to do so. In the case of ] I was adding to the Family and children section and added additional links I have not entered any other part of the article. | |||
| :::In the case of ] there is no way she can be ] nice as the records of his brothers and sisters state so. I have raised these concerns in the talk page, see Talk:Sibyl of Falaise - Misplaced Pages https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Sibyl_of_Falaise as I see it. ] (]) 21:56, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *They have been '''blocked'''. ]] 22:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| If you'll look at {{diff|Whitecaps FC 2|712450016|712202123|this edit}} you'll see two of them. The first is his constant attacks on anons. In this case, the anon made a mistake common with association football editors: assuming that being called to play for a national team equates with being considered that nationality. ] speaks directly against this. Checking CTC's edit history, you will see many polemics against anons in this manner or worse. The second is that he insists on using Icelanding and other non-English characters. The comment he wrote was, "Anoðr reason to shut down IP edits! Unleß you fīnd prōf ðat Davies actually playd for Canada at ANY level, just shut down ur computer already." It twice uses the Icelandic Thorn: ð, the Germanic long S:ß, an i and o with a macron, usually used to mark long or heavy syllables in Greco-Roman metrics: ī and ō. This makes it almost impossible for a native English reader to understand. This is just one comment. More can be seen in his edit history. I not sure what he's here to do, but it seems he's ] on some level, definitely treating editing as a battleground, repeated hostile aggressiveness, little or no interest in working collaboratively, at least with anon editors, and major or irreconcilable conflict of attitude or intention, again especially toward anon editors. ] (]) 05:19, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Cheers, {{u|GiantSnowman}}. ]'']''] 22:46, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : I have every reason to believe that Walter Gorlitz is intentionally presenting only half of the story here. If you look through my edit history, you'll see that I only attack vandals, but not others, and I attack vandals because it's the best way of dealing with vandals. Walter Gorlitz went soft on them and nothing happened, but when I stepped in, the vandals stopped, at least for a few days. Editing is a battleground '''if and only if''' the other side is composed of none but vandals. Also, if you look through my edit history, you'll find evidence that I don't just refuse to work collaboratively. It is only vandals and the likes of Walter Gorlitz, a double-standarded anti-diacritic crusader who allows only himself to use diacritics in his name but wants to purge them from all other names, that I am simply unable to work with because of '''irreconcilable differences'''. | |||
| : Also, ] '''only''' applies to first-time mistakes, but '''not repeated vandalism''' like that in the example that Walter Gorlitz provided. Seriously, if one (especially an admin) can still assume good faith in repeated vandalism, <font color="purple">s/he should re-think whether s/he's leading Misplaced Pages towards the right direction</font>. | |||
| : As for my use of so-called "non-English" alphabets, as accused by this anti-diacritic crusader, we all know that there's a limitation of 500 characters in the edit summary, which could be too short in some cases, but I still need to explain why I'm revoking someone's edit or why I'm making such an edit. What else should I do other than coming up with ways to shorten my spelling? Walter Gorlitz wants us to "assume good faith" even in the most blatant cases of vandalism, but why isn't he assuming good faith when all I did was using combined alphabets and diacritics to shorten my spelling? Also, for those who are able to venture back a thousand years or two, diacritics and so-called "non-standard" alphabets were everywhere in '''English''', from '']'' to '']''. If Walter Gorlitz's standards were not double standard, I don't know what is. ''] <sup>wants to abolish "]" like abolishing ].</sup>'' 17:31, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :: It's clear to see the self-deluded hubris presented by Cedric when you look at his claim that he reverted a repeat vandal. The edit made by the IP he made the personal attack on was the editor's first. ] (]) 04:52, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::] refers to ''Modern'' English, not ancient ancestors of the language Anglo-Saxon or Proto-Germanic or Proto-Indo-European. Excessive use of non-standard spellings (which I'm sure are not even historically accurate to Old English usage) in edit summaries is disruptive. I don't like the character-count restrictions in edit summaries, but ''Another reason to shut down IP edits! Unless you fīnd proof that Davies actually played for Canada at ANY level, just shut down your computer already'' would have easily fit. The content of the comment, that IPs should be banned from editing Misplaced Pages entirely because one IP made a dubious, unsourced edit (to text that was already unsourced to begin with, mind you), is absurd -- almost as absurd, in fact, as calling a user named "Walter Görlitz" an "anti-diacritic crusader". Further, the assertion that WG "wants to purge from all other names" is ], and wouldn't even apply to ] if it was true, as "Cedric tsan cantonais" doesn't contain any diacritics. I've suffered ] from the Misplaced Pages Diacritic Wars than likely both of you combined (perhaps even more than every other editor on the project), but you don't see me making ridiculous assertions like this. ] (<small>]]</small>) 06:43, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Sorry, I got here late. Thanks to Ealdgyth for bringing this issue here, and to all who participated. After an initial attempt at dealing with Pipera's disruptions and chaotic editing/communication pattern, I must admit I soon walked away. Thanks those with more patience than I for trying longer. ] <sup>]</sup> 22:48, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Extreme personal attack and harassment by User:SheriffIsInTown == | |||
| :::Thanks to Ealdgyth for the thread. I participated sufficiently to see this was real problem, but didn't act decisively. ] (]) 22:49, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == An IP who gave me a fake 4im warning == | |||
| He had editing dispute with some users and he accused them of being '''internet terrorists'''. In the above edit made on 27th March, ShriffIsInTown has gave a link to some hacking website. I request users not to click the link. | |||
| There was a IP address (]) who | |||
| Later on ] filed an SPI where ShriffIsInTown started to support the sockpuppet and accuse MBlaze Lightning of filing a wrong SPI. See the comment history of ]. Even after the SPI result he started pinging administrators, --] (]) 05:43, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| # Called me blind in an edit summary after i reverted his edit | |||
| *'''Ridiculous bad faith report that should earn the nom some sort of sanction'''Perhaps the Nom should peruse history before reporting? Sherif was pointing out the fact that a couple of IP's have been quick to vandalise the article ever since new info was added. Well if someone calls a vandal as "internet terrorist" I am sure there is no harm, they are trying to destroy wikipedia so to be frank you can call them whatever you want. And this was not just an edit that was disputes, this was clear vandalism. As for the so called Pinging of admins to come and favor the bad bad user", the diff shows that Sherif wanted a "shorter block" not an unblock, and this is quite common across wikipedia, reporting this to ANI is beyond assuming bad faith , it is ridiculous and ****Y. Secondly Greek Legend himself wanted to "protect" or defend MBL as is clear from his own comments here . Now I don't want to assume anything, I am just saying that if someone beat you to the punch you should not cry and run to the admins asking for his ban, it is not Shriffs fault that you could not protect MBL from the "POV pushers", so please do not take it out on him. So all in all, a very very bad faith report, which would have earned any student a burning bottom had he taken this to the headmaster. ] (]) 07:50, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| # trouted me and gave me a 4im warning | |||
| :: Protect? I didn't want him to be unblocked. And why did you say about the same comment in the same user page. ] (]) 07:56, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::I have no idea what you mean by this statement of yours that "you did not want him unblocked". You just wanted Kutilya to side with him on the SPI as is quite clear from your statement. Also you called everyone involved in the SPI as "POV pusherS" which is a personal attack in itself. Furthermore my comment on MBL's page endorses your statement that MBL should stay away from politics related editing, and has '''Literally nothing''' to do with this bad faith nomination. To be frank with a kettle as black as your editing history you are under greater threat of being blocked for canvassing as you did at Kutilyas TP and for calling other users POV pushers when nothing has been proven against them. Sherrif called some IP vandals as "internet terrorists" and you are all up in arms about it and you are yourself calling like 5 established users POV pushers and its all right. Bravo! ] (]) 08:03, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Anyone can check the timings and see that I made the comment '''after the SPI was completed'''. While you all were involved, when the SPI was going on. Talk pages are for discussion. And this user:FreeatlastChitchat is also part of . And the last line of this edit is a personal attack. '''If no administrator takes any action''', then it would seem experienced users are allowed to abuse new users. And FreeatlastChitchat is also referring . This is local slang word in Urdu. He used this word more than once. It can't be a simple mistake.] (]) 08:11, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::] Yes you made the comment after the SPI, that is what I have been saying all along. You are so angry at sherif for beating you to the punch that as soon as the SPI is over you go over to K's page and say "OMG" we should have ganged up and defended poor MBL from these POV pushers. Then you vent your anger on Sherif by reporting him to ANI. HOW DARE he give his opinion against your express wishes? It is hilarious that you wanted to do something, but sheriff did it before you, so now you want him banned. Anyway as to your other comments. Firstly I accused MBL of a frivolous SPI against TalhaZubair and I was vindicated when the CU check showed that he had done nothing wrong. I have no idea why you are trying to add that information in this thread. you do realise that what you are linking '''goes against''' what you are trying to prove right? Secondly the word Kutiya means cunning, it is not used to denigrate anyone. Rather it is used by friends as a means of praise. You can see the use here meaning that you are really cunning and astute. So that lays to rest your another assumption of bad faith. Thirdly I have now changed the word back to Kautilya so its no harm no foul. Lets get back to your attempt to canvas and your Personal attacks on user whom you call POV pushers. Also just when did it become a crime to call an SPI frivolous? You do realise that you do not own/run/have exclusive access to wikipedia right? It is a right of everyone to edit it and give their opinions. ] (]) 08:26, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: No it has some other derogatory meaning also. ] (]) 08:33, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::] of course it does, as almost every single word in punjabi, but I have changed it back so please be kind enough to stop dangling the red herring. Why did you report sheriff for the exact same thing that you wanted to do btw? are you allowed to do these things exclusively? ] (]) 08:37, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::: '''This is my last comment here''' - You said above that I did the same thing. When and how I have made personal attacks against any user? When did I ping three administrators to favour a blocked user? (That was the original post). '''Bye''' and don't ping me again. ] (]) 08:44, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::@] you asked two questions, let me answer them, then you wont be pinged further. You asked "When and how I have made personal attacks against any user?". Well calling users '''POV pushers''' is a personal attack and a bad one at that. You called almost half a dozen editors POV pushers at Kautilya3's TP as I have just shown. there is no innuendo or veiled reference, you outright called them POV pushers. Your second question was "When did I ping three administrators to favour a blocked user?". I have already replied to this that your anger stems from the fact that '''you got beaten to the punch'''. As is clear from your comments at Kautilyas page, you "wanted" to gang up and "defend" MBL but were not able to do so, and this is the sole reason for this bad faith joke of a report. ] (]) 09:19, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| I think this is the appropriate place to take this report. | |||
| I didn't want to comment again, but this use is repeatedly pinging me here, misinterpreting my comments and also making continuous personal attacks in this post as saying along with other personal attacks mentioned above. No administrator took any action, that's why he thinks he can say whatever he want and get away with it. ] (]) 10:16, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :@ ] plz do explain what has been misinterpreted in this statement of yours"He was alone against a bunch of POV pushers in that SPI". Please explain it to us so you can tell us what you meant by this. If you explain it yourself there will be no way anyone can misinterpret it as you will have given the explanation yourself. ] (]) 10:19, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :: You are accusing me of Canvassing, which I did not do ever. Users can have conversation about anything. Yesterday I saw how a group was accusing MBlaze in that SPI. Today I found the SPI was successful and those users blocked. I found that he was right and all of you were wrong about the SPI. I mentioned that to Kautilya3. Do you have any problem if I saw anything to anybody when the SPI is over? I didn't ask Kautilya to comment anywhere. Kautilya never edited according to my request ever in the past. Kautilya edits according to his own will. You are misinterpreting my comment as you were against M Blaze in that SPI and you didn't like my comment on Kautilya's talk page. That's why you are making repeated personal attacks here again and again.--] (]) 10:30, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{re|Greek Legend}} I don't see an accusation of canvassing on part of FALCC. I agree that users can have conversation about anything but your encouragement of MBL's battleground and edit-warring behavior and then calling his opponents POV pushers does not carry an image of a good faith editor. Your message while awarding him the barnstar tantamounts to "them vs. us". Your message "The way your opponents were screaming and shouting against you. " and "Let them push their POV." to him carries a sound bite of teaming up behavior. Please don't make it "India vs Pakistan", this is an encyclopedia and not a battleground, please keep it that way. As about the SPI, i already mentioned that i was talking about the "lack of evidence" and how "TalhaZubairButt" and "DelusionMBT" do not seem to be connected and i was proven right. ] | ] | 12:53, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Two times he has used the word canvas. If you don't want to read then don't read his long comments. Go through his comment history in this post again and you will find what you are looking for. Thanks. ] (]) 13:05, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: I did not see Kautilya's TP before but saw it now. So, how do you explain your message "He was alone against a bunch of POV pushers in that SPI." You were served by Kautilya on 23 February 2016. 's first decision calls for "Assumption of good faith" but you are completely doing opposite of it, you are calling your opponents POV pushers which seem to be Pakistani editors, you are leaving messages on talk pages of seemingly Indian editors and asking them to team up, do not leave your buddies alone. Are you some kind of assigned coordinator among them? Honestly, you should be coming under ARBIPA enforcement for this. This behavior of yours is against the principles of building an encyclopedia and should not be tolerated. ] | ] | 13:31, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''': Guys, I will quickly address two points raised in this ANI. First of all, it seems like MBL is on the revenge again against an editor with whom he had disputes with. He couldn't get blocked one (TalhaZubairButt) now he is trying to get blocked the other. As you can see from my userpage ], I have over 87% success rate of exposing socks and by looking at his frivolous SPI, I knew that TalhaZubairButt was not connected to DelusionMBT and I was proven right by CU. Instead of filing this report, he should be apologizing to TalhaZubairButt whom he accused of being a sock-puppet of Wikibaba1977 and LanguageXpert under ], another accusation proven wrong by ]. He also filed a frivolous ANI at Edit-warring noticeboard against me which he had to withdraw. He is himself under violation of 1RR imposed on Pakistan, India and Afghanistan articles. He reverted twice the content in which Pakistan and India are both mentioned on ] but so for no action is taken against him. As for IP which vandalised ] was not an IP rather it was a network address and I have never seen a network address appear like this in the edits before. Notice 0 at the end of 101.60.229.0. It looked suspicious to me so when I searched for it on the Internet, I found that International Anti-hacker Alliance website has this network blacklisted and they claimed that this network was actually tied to known hackers and Internet terrorists and location of the network shows up as well so nothing hidden about it. Mind you that website is Anti-hacker and not hacking website as MBL claimed, two opposite side of coins. Its same like email spam fighting websites such as Blue Cop etc. I would request admins to block the whole network 101.60.229.0 since it's very dangerous to allow them to continue to vandalise Misplaced Pages. This frivolous ANI should be thrown out of the window since calling "a spade a spade" is no crime. It seems now MBL is trying to throw everything at me to get me blocked as he did to TalhaZubairButt. I requested for shorter block of DelusionMBT because I genuinely thought he did not completely understood the whole procedure and seemed inexperienced to me and was willing to learn from his mistakes. I also genuinely did not know that pinging admins to unblock a user was wrong but you can let me know If it was wrong and I won't do in future. ] | ] | 09:06, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| '''Note''' Sheriff] of collegiality. Not taking sides in this particular report or anything; but that User Page has some most peculiar elements. Cheers, ] <sup>''''']'''''</sup> 15:53, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :{{re|Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi}} Would you spell them out here? My user page is just for fun. It carries a police theme, its my personal choice, goes with my username, nothing to do with my editing and i never indulge on what other users have on their pages, your user page is for you to keep it as it pleases you. I have an incomplete ] section which might help you understand many things about my user page. Also, i would like to add that maybe, you want to suggest how to lay out my user page, do you want me to blank it out completely so that it does not bother you or you want me to copy your page to my page so it looks exactly the same as yours which should make you very happy. Let me know because i am all for collegiality! :) ] | ] | 16:43, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Thanks, ] ] ] 22:37, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| '''Comment''': Since my name has been mentioned about a hundred times here already, I thought I would make a few remarks in the interest of drawing this discussion to a close. I have been editing India-Pakistan pages for about 18 months, and I can tell you that I have seen very few saints and very few devils. All the editors fall somewhere in between; they all carry some biases, want to push some POVs, take some short-cuts, play the system etc. That is the reality, and it is not all bad. When there are intense disputes between "biased" editors, the real truth can be slowly found. I only wish they debate a bit more coherently so that I can understand the truth faster. Both MBlaze and Freeatlast fall into this category. They have crossed the line and are currently undergoing a learning experience. Let them do it in peace and let us go back to work. We can spend our time more fruitfully by picking up those pages that are dying for our attention. -- ] (]) 16:32, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :Well, a 4im warning was certainly an overreaction and the edit summary could have been nicer, but your revert was obviously wrong. The IP has since self-reverted the warning. No admin action is needed here, but you should read IP edits more carefully before reverting them, and consider changing your distasteful signature. ] (]) 22:45, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Distasteful? What do you mean? it is simply a videogame refrence to ]. | |||
| ::And i did admit fault for the bad edit (and for my unnecessarily silly first response). | |||
| ::Thanks, ] ] ] 22:50, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::However, @] I was gonna change it due to me changing my username soon. So, in the meantime, i will change it. ] ] ] 22:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::It would be great i you could remove all of the extraneous phrases and change it so that it is just your username and a link to your User talk page. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 00:05, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I fail to see the need to jump all over Tenebre over their signature. There are a number of other editors and admins who have similarly goofy signatures and jumping down one editor's throat seems petty. ] (]) 02:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Community block appeal by ] == | |||
| === FreeatlastChitchat blocked for one week === | |||
| {{hat|irrelevant ] <sup>'']''</sup> 14:14, 29 March 2016 (UTC)}} | |||
| *'''Comment''' SheriffIsInTown just saw that FreeatlastChitchat is blocked for one week and trying to divert the attention. I don't edit all these India-Pakistan war articles. ] (]) 13:58, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :This is again, "not an assumption of good faith". I did not see if FreeatlastChitchat was blocked. I do not follow others like you do. What do you mean by "diverting the attention"? If he is already blocked then he is already blocked. How would it serve me or him if i try to divert the attention? How this announcement of yours serve this ANI? ] | ] | 14:04, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :: Any '''experienced neutral editor''' can see through what is going on here. I can't just go on explaining again and again. '''I have other interests in Misplaced Pages than these arbitration topics'''. --] (]) 14:12, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| {{hab}} | |||
| {{user links|Drbogdan}} | |||
| :I made the above hatted comment after a proposal by . ] (]) 16:02, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| This user has asked for a review of their community block enacted as a result of a six months ago. Just FYI for context the original title of the section on their talk pages was ''"Request to restore editing per ] as suggested"'' and several users involved in the previous discussion were pinged, and a block review began there before I shut that down and informed them it needed to be done here, so there's going to be some volume of comments right away, in addition to the lengthy text of the request itself. ] ] 23:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| - MY (overdue perhaps) REPLIES Somewhat new to all of this (been busy in other wiki-areas over the years - see below), but seems it's been over 6 months since the start of my (start date = July 6, 2024) - perhaps ] may now apply I would think - and hopefully, ] and ] (direct and/or indirect) apply here as well of course. Thanks. ::<q class="inline-quote-talk ">::I closed this quickly a few minutes ago since the latest comments have been fairly plain personal attacks, rather than discussing the substance of the complaint and appropriate action. It took me a while to organize my thoughts and copyedit myself - there's a lot to unpack here.</q> Thank you for your comments and conclusions. As before, I've been very busy recently with mostly real-world activities (but also with some earlier online activities - ++ and others) . Sorry for my delay in not responding earlier of course. Hopefully, my presentation here is appropriate and entirely ok (I'm really new to this wiki-area). ::<q class="inline-quote-talk ">::Here we have a science expert mass-adding content based on low-quality popular science churnalism to our science articles, expecting that other editors will review it and determine whether to improve or remove it, and a complaint from the editors who have been cleaning up after them supposedly for many years. This discussion can be summed up with a quote from the ] essay: "A mess created in a sincere effort to help is still a mess that needs to be cleaned up." We excuse this behaviour from very new editors who don't yet understand that ] with ] and ]. The community expects an editor with 90,000 edits to understand what content should be in an article and what constitutes a reliable source, especially for an editor who is also a subject matter expert.</q> Mostly untrue claims. Certainly none intentional. As before, claims have been exaggerated (also noted by others and elsewhere) and/or (with no or few supporting diffs) (along with - ie, ) (). Such claims, perhaps to seem more credible than they really may be, seem to have been presented under cover of apparent ] of one sort or another. In addition, the importance of ], in some relevant instances, have been downplayed and/or dismissed outright. For one example of possible related contention, the very long-time (many years) ] article, originally a very enriched (helpful/useful) version (seemingly at least), and justified by ], is , but is currently (without discussion or ]) changed to a less helpful/useful ] instead. Seems like ] rules may overrule ]? Seems so at the moment in this instance. At least until there's a better resolution of the issue through further discussion and ] I would think. In any case, lessons learned here of course. ::<q class="inline-quote-talk ">::Drbogdan's replies to deserved criticism in this thread have been dismissive of the problem at best, if not signalling that they believe their academic credentials excuse them from needing to improve. The community has historically rejected this approach, and rejects it here. Since Drbogdan seems not to understand that they are making a mess and seems uninterested in learning how not to continue making messes, the community's consensus is that Drbogdan is '''blocked indefinitely'''.</q> Not true. Never said or thought this. Ever. Not my way of thinking. I've always tried to be open to improvement. Seems the better road generally. After all, nobody's perfect. Everyone could benefit from improvement of one sort or another I would think. My academic (and related) credentials have been presented only to describe my qualifications to edit Misplaced Pages, which, I currently understand, may be ok. Please let me know if otherwise of course. Nonetheless, my current UserPage is . (My earlier UserPage, if interested, is ). ::-- ::<q class="inline-quote-talk ">::Separately from this close, I also *must say* that their habit - eccentric, maybe? - of hacking together *long run-on strings of comments* - interspersed - as they are - with *forced pause* breaks and sprinkled with self-aggrandizing - and off-topic, yes - links to their *achievements* makes it - as others have said here - quite frustrating to converse with them. All the worse that the vast majority of their comments of this sort do not substantively reply to the comments they are left in response to.<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div></q> Not ever true in my edits of mainspace articles. May be somewhat true on some talk-pages only. In any case, lessons learned here as well. Any specific rules broken in my editing have been entirely unintentional. As far as I currently know, all edits that may have been of some issue earlier have been completely corrected some time ago. I currently know of no real rules broken that may not be a matter of unsettled opinion. If otherwise, please specify rules that may have been an issue (and related diffs of course), and suggested ways that I may further improve my related edits going forward. I expect to adjust accordingly (and appropriately) as needed at the first opportunity of course. Thanks. ::::I'm also going to leave links here to ], ], and ]. ] (]/]) 8:18 am, 6 July 2024, Saturday (6 months, 6 days ago) (UTC−8) Thanks again for all your comments and conclusions. I should note that I have , including (+++++and more); as well as to ; ; ; ; ; ; and . ADD: ] (]) 10:10, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Threats from Cryptic & CSD:U5 == | |||
| Thanks for reviewing my request. May have been a bit bold (]) on some of my earlier edits and presentations. I sincerely apologize in these instances if overdone of course. Nonetheless, some complaints seem interpretable to me (a "mess" to some may not be one to others for example; "quality" of editing may be another example). The standards on Misplaced Pages are not set in stone so-to-speak, but keep evolving - hence, "]" and "]", and similar phrasing and notions, seem to be an essential part of the DNA of Misplaced Pages, and helpful, I would think, to the better development of Misplaced Pages as a world-class source of quality knowledge and information. This may be even more important these days given the apparent recent removal of "]" on some online websites. Re any apparent ]: none ever intentional, and all completely solved long ago afaik. Hope this helps in some way. | |||
| Incidentally, I entirely agree that my earlier user page needs a version trimmed down to the very basics, and without any material whatsoover that may possibly be understood as promotional. I have no problem doing that of course. Seems I may have been too ] with that (and related presentations, including those involving references and the like). In any case, thank you for reviewing my request here. I hope my replies (noted above) help in some way to restore my en-Misplaced Pages editing. Stay Safe and Healthy !! - ] (]) 12:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Prior talk page discussion=== | |||
| {{collapse top|prior discussion copied from ]. ] ] 23:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| '''Strong oppose:''' DrBogdan has never acknowledged their destructive editing tendencies or willingness to be overly promotional in weighting their contributions to wikipedia, a trait was has continued well into their CBAN with promotional-ish replies here () and his largely being to maintain promotional links. He continues above in lionizing the volume of his edit history without regard for quality and linking, inexplicably, his facebook, livejournal, and wordpress pages. | |||
| I and other editors have spent a lot of time since their ban cleaning up the daily updates and image galleries added persistently to articles. | |||
| ] says "It was declined because it was explicitly marked as a draft, which makes it not be a U5, until you edited that off. We have a word for people who people who edit a page that was not a speedy candidate to make it into one. That word is "vandal". If you don't want to be blocked like one, don't act like one." ] | |||
| Since his ban, I did more cleaning at Commons and this not contributing to the project. In this process I learned that Drbogdan has had a history of uploading images with copyright issues, as well. The meat of it, though, has been how he absolutely ruined entire science articles that have required complete rewrites to bring up to standard. | |||
| First, Twinkle automatically replaces the userspace draft header with the CSD tag like this , it is nothing I did intentionally. | |||
| Second, I have yet to see another Admin say anything like this, and I've had many similar pages deleted ] | |||
| Finally, I take this as a serious threat because he is an Admin and could block me, and it's not the first time he's made the threat against me. Therefore I'm bringing this for wider view. If I'm using ] incorrectly I'd like to know ASAP so I can change how I am doing things. | |||
| I have maintained since it’s very time consuming. So far I’ve had to rewrite (with help from others in places) ,, , , , , and , in addition to the cleanup done before his CBAN. All of these were victims of indiscriminate image galleries added to articles and daily updates on mission status. If we look at one I still haven’t gotten to, like ], it’s still an absolute mess of images smeared all over it. The intent of this list isn't to be any kind of gravedancing, but rather Drbogdan's major contributions have been so consistently low-quality that it's necessary to manually review every single article he's been heavily involved in to remove indiscriminate galleries. | |||
| He reverted about 14 of my ] tags in a row including these other examples I've now sent to MfD that I believe are obvious uncontroversial ]: | |||
| *] | |||
| *] | |||
| *] | |||
| ] (]) 06:15, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :* Cryptic is responding appropriately to sloppy inaccurate CSD tagging. Check the opening sentence of WP:CSD. --] (]) 06:23, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Drbogdan’s defence here and in the past has been a mix of the ] and blaming my “persistence” at the ANI, despite my initial arguments at ANI being opposed to a ban. I think it’s pretty clear at this point that Drbogdan is motivated to edit, but unwilling to acknowledge any of the shortcomings in their editing process and I don’t actually see a planet in which their presence here is a positive given the timbre of this unban request. Especially considering it was so obviously going to be posted bang-on the six month mark. ] 12:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Cryptic is an admin and has the right to decline them all if Cryptic doesn't think a page violates U5. I think your point is fair in that twinkle for some reason does replace the userspace draft template with the U5 notice but if it doesn't violate U5 to Cryptic, drop it and take it to MFD. Cryptic, I think the accusation of intent is incorrect but I think U5 is so badly worded and so misused, I'm barely sure when it's appropriate. I'd say that if Cryptic blocks for wrong U5 tagging, it would be inappropriate but there's numerous other discussions and antics going on, Legacypac, that a block could be justified, I'm just saying. -- ] (]) 06:24, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''', although it sounds like he has some hair-shirt wearing and more 'splaining to do. Nothing wrong in asking for this return after six months (that's what six months means, not six months but maybe wait an extra week or two). Thanks to Warrenmck for their cleanup, not a fun thing to do but needed when mistakes are made. That's what the six month wait is for, punishment for those mistakes. Once six months is served and understanding is admitted the slate should be swept clean and the fatted calf slaughtered for a feast. In seriousness, I've missed Dr.'s edits to science and space articles, he catches and posts new information at a commendable rate and I often learned about recent events from those edits. Taking Warren's concerns into account, maybe Dr. can explain a bit more about understanding why many editors had such concerns to begin with. Thanks, and, hopefully, welcome back. ] (]) 13:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :: Doesn't any editor have the right to remove a CSD tag, with only some specific restrictions? | |||
| *:{{tq|Once six months is served and understanding is admitted}} | |||
| :: Weren't we re-working the wording of U5, I guess we got sidetracted? --] (]) 09:44, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *:''And'', not ''or''. Above Drbogdan is actively complaining about the edits made to ] since his ban, and refusing to acknowledge that there were any issues with systematic low quality edits in the first place. For all people like to address his science credentials, by his own biography those are all in medicine and as an actual ] editor in the areas he's most keen to edit I've relied far less on my credentials in editing these articles than he has. There were other space-centric ]s hitting a wall with his editing pattern in the ANI, as well, if I recall. This is what resulted in several editors discussing a proclivity for ] and ]; he has been operating on the assumption that his ability to accurately weight information within planetary science and astrophysics is good, despite constant removal of added content in those fields. Expertise is non-transferrable. ] 13:29, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *If Twinkle does that automatically, I apologize, but it's a pretty glaring bug that needs to be fixed post-haste. (And it's not one that I've seen with other users' U5 tags.) This is no different than it replacing the rest of the article with "aaksjhkasjhas" when you add a <nowiki>{{db-g1}}</nowiki> tag. Re U5, ]; the language there is "Whether pages plausibly intended or explicitly marked as drafts would be eligible under the new criterion, and which". —] 06:31, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yes, and Drbogdan, if he comes back, has to adhere to those things or he won't be editing for long. A six-month indef ban seems long enough for someone to realize there may be a few things to do differently (hard to do for those of us who know everything and think that our way ''is'' the highway). He knows that his edits will be closely watched again, so maybe when an edit seems like it may be in question he can bring it to the talk page first (either the article or to one of the "watchers" for comment). Several ways to go about this, and better to have him editing and being careful about penalty calls than watching from the sidelines. ] (]) 13:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :: Ok, then, Legacypac, is this resolved now? I think we can have a further discussion at ] about U5 language and wording if you want but I think the discussions before was pretty detailed. The bug someone can take to ]is it? -- ] (]) 06:57, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I don't want to bludgeon this, but I'm genuinely curious how you can possibly read an understanding of the underlying problem on his part from a post which basically can be summarized as "It wasn't me/I didn't do it/It wasn't intentional". I think there's some very serious wishful thinking on your part, because the above request to be unblocked actually contains every single element that lead to his CBAN; a refusal to recognize issues in the quality of his edits or in fact any meaningful wrongdoing at all and promotional editing. | |||
| * Again, blatant misuse of U5, if other admins do use it as a blanket deletion tag for some proper drafts, they are the ones in the grey zone. --<span style="font-family:'Tahoma',Geneva,sans-serif">] <small>(] ☕ ])</small></span> 07:05, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::{{tq| I currently know of no real rules broken}} | |||
| :: It's not a misuse if the CSD is declined. You can call it mistagging but it's not like U5 was actually ''used'' to get anything done. -- ] (]) 07:44, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::This isn't the basis for the removal of a CBAN as "lesson learned" ] 13:58, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::: I meant it in the context you said - something sort of like, ''using'' U5 to try and get them deleted which was wrong. --<span style="font-family:'Tahoma',Geneva,sans-serif">] <small>(] ☕ ])</small></span> 07:48, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I may be optimistic and hoping that this discussion will bring more comments from Drbogdan about these concerns. As I said, when we think we're right but other editors disagree then the process is to go through a long discussion to try to talk some sense into them (as seen from our point of view, which hopefully includes the ability to change our own mind) - because in Misplaced Pages even a 13-year-old high school student has as much say as a Dr. or professor. That power given to the uninformed is a trademark of Misplaced Pages, but somehow it works and the place runs well while growing and improving by the second. Dr. gives much weight to IAR, as he should (IAR, undiscussed by most editors, is policy and a darn good one), but you have to know it when you see it (from the perspective of that 14-year-old (who just this second had a birthday) editing while in study hall). ] (]) 14:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::: From my perspective, a misuse of the CSD tag would be if the admin deleted it based on a wrong tag (say a ridiculously expansive version of G6). That's a contrast to a mistagging when a non-admin can do. Doesn't matter, I agree, it's still an accusation, whether it's intentional or reckless is another matter. -- ] (]) 08:12, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::] in Drbogdan's case included a lot of copyvio, both at Commons (uploading non-free images) and in article spaces (linking copyright violating youtube videos inline in articles). ] 15:23, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*] is a page that was appropriately deleted per ]. The content was a list of songs that the user apparently liked.<small>—]<sup>(]</sup><sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">])</sub></small> 08:20, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Thanks for reviewing my request. May have been a bit bold (]) on some of my earlier edits and presentations. I sincerely apologize in these instances if overdone of course. Nonetheless, some complaints seem interpretable to me (a "mess" to some may not be one to others for example; "quality" of editing may be another example). The standards on Misplaced Pages are not set in stone so-to-speak, but keep evolving - hence, "]" and "]", and similar phrasing and notions, seem to be an essential part of the DNA of Misplaced Pages, and helpful, I would think, to the better development of Misplaced Pages as a world-class source of quality knowledge and information. This may be even more important these days given the apparent recent removal of "]" on some online websites. Re any apparent ]: none ever intentional, and all completely solved long ago afaik. Hope this helps in some way. ] (]) 15:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :**As far as content I agree; but that user has , another blocker for using U5. —] 08:38, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *Why is this on ANI? Did you try to explain to Cryptic that Twinkle auto-strips the template? Honestly Legacypac... where there's smoke there's fire. I like that you're being bold and mapping out the nuances of how different policies work, but it's getting to the point that your good faith conduct is becoming disruptive. You surely must expect some negative reaction at this point. Slow the hell down. Try to settle the dispute. U5 CSDs aren't generally urgent, so take a break from them. We can figure this out if we work together. Coming back to ANI again and again is only raising the temperature of this dispute. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 17:13, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| So, as you can see I have collapsed the above discussion for the moment. This is a community-imposed block based on a consensus determined at ], it must go through the same process if an unblock is to be considered. I can, however copy over the above comments if and when that is done so the users who have already commented don't have to start over. Before we go there, I'd like to ask, in light of what I have just explained and the feedback already given, if you are sure this is the appeal you want to submit for review by the community? ] ] 01:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Proposal for interaction ban with ] == | |||
| :Thank you for your comments. And clarification of the relevant procedure. Yes, you may submit the related appeal. Thank you for your help with this. Stay Safe and Healthy !! - ] (]) 01:53, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| User says he would stop ] me, then starts that up again. See I made it clear I didnt want to be gossiped about, but he did just that at . I would also like to link y'all to this previous discussion (Thank you so much ] for the link) . This is pretty much all anybody would need for "evidence". Winkelvi is basically a hateful ], and he will just choose one editor and hound him/her to the level that he/she retires. See ] for a previous such instance. His hounding goes from making accusations to up my talk page with anything he wishes. By the way, none of those files were deleted. He tries to get allies against me, first it was Chasewc91 and now its Chesnaught555. Notice how he this GA review just to fail it? He didnt even let it be on hold for 7 days. He also continually makes ] writings about me on ], and also supporting any/other deletion (or otherwise) discussion against my standing. He gossips about me on other users' talk pages. And makes a poor impression of mine to anyone I try to engage with. I am now asking for administrator intervention. Note that he is also trying to ] my country . Please tell me he doesnt get to file bogus SPIs against me after this IBAN. Cause' it reflects badly on me (and FAKE if I may add).--] (]) 13:05, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| : |
::That's a bad idea. Bebblebrox was giving you a subtle hint. Rewrite your appeal to address the main concerns. ] (]) 01:56, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | ||
| :::Thanks for your comments - seems like my current appeal above addresses the main concerns presented in the original ANI concluding comments - at least as far as I'm aware of at the moment - am I overlooking something? - ] (]) 02:15, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::You can have a mutually-enforced interaction ban or a community-enforced one? Which one are you running for? --<span style="font-family:'Tahoma',Geneva,sans-serif">] <small>(] ☕ ])</small></span> 13:18, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Many things. I've previously addressed them up above and they have recently been addressed in the current, now collapsed thread. This isn't rocket science. You're intelligent, and I think you can figure it out. ] (]) 02:16, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::A community-enforced one.--] (]) 13:20, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: |
:::::Seems like my very last comments (copied below) in the collapsed thread does that in fact. Certainly intended to do that, and thought I did in fact - ] (]) 02:32, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | ||
| :::::Copy of my last comments in the thread: | |||
| *'''Comment''' First of all, I've never said I would stop hounding him or anyone; second, I've never hounded him; third, my comments to {{U|Calvin999}} were in reference to a couple of things: MF canvassing an editor to do a GA review for him and a GA review then starting up just an hour or so after the editor doing the review was canvassed. It seems to be a vio of policy to canvass in such a manner to begin with, since the editor being canvassed is friendly toward MF and there could be favoritism clouding the GA process in this case. Further, the other issue is that there are a lot of GA noms that just sit for a considerable period of time, untouched and unnoticed, because those nominating articles for GA don't ask favors from their Wiki-friends to do a GA review for them. MF has done this before: canvassing editors he is friendly with to perform a GA review for him. This seems to me an egregious abuse of process on the part of anyone, not just MF, and that was what my comment to Calvin was about. And speaking of policy violations on the part of MF, let me include that not only mentions a policy vio by MF occurring just moments ago, but also shows an interesting attitude from MF toward an admin he didn't think was an admin. -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">]</span> ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">] ]</span> 13:37, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::{{tq|Thanks for reviewing my request. May have been a bit bold (]) on some of my earlier edits and presentations. I sincerely apologize in these instances if overdone of course. Nonetheless, some complaints seem interpretable to me (a "mess" to some may not be one to others for example; "quality" of editing may be another example). The standards on Misplaced Pages are not set in stone so-to-speak, but keep evolving - hence, "]" and "]", and similar phrasing and notions, seem to be an essential part of the DNA of Misplaced Pages, and helpful, I would think, to the better development of Misplaced Pages as a world-class source of quality knowledge and information. This may be even more important these days given the apparent recent removal of "]" on some online websites. Re any apparent ]: none ever intentional, and all completely solved long ago afaik. Hope this helps in some way. ] (]) ]}} ] (]) 02:32, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Is this a joke? I know nothing about any of the editors I ask to do reviews.--] (]) 13:40, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Incidentally, I entirely agree that my earlier user page needs a version trimmed down to the very basics, and without any material whatsoover that may possibly be understood as promotional. I have no problem doing that of course. Seems I may have been too ] with that (and related presentations, including those involving references and the like). ] (]) 03:09, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Calvin accepted stuff like and because he likes those editors, but when I do it it is a problem?--] (]) 13:43, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::A stated interest in using '''bold''' and '''IAR''' to more of a degree than most editors may seem too close to how you've edited in the past that a group of users objected to. Maybe tone that down or even go the opposite way - in some instances where you believe IAR to be the correct solution maybe plan to first take these to talk pages for feedback (you can likely "feel" when an edit will be objected to, and those are the ones to discuss beforehand). In any case, after an indef ban, editing practices should at least be modified to take others points-of-view into account. Make sense? ] (]) 12:17, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Canvassing for this AN/I''' , , , . -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">]</span> ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">] ]</span> 13:54, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Thanks for your comments. Yes. I *completely* agree with everything you've noted (and had thought of all of this earlier myself as well). I fully expect to do all of this at the next oppotunity. No problem whatsoever with any of this. - ] (]) 12:41, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :My TP also, {{U|Winkelvi}}. --] ] ] 14:14, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| {{collapse bottom}} | |||
| ::NONE of these are actually canvassing, I encourage the editors to actually open and view these links, they are being misrepresented.--] (]) 14:06, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *Shouldn't this be on ], not ]? <small> also, this is weird. This section, and this section only, has a pause between typing the "<nowiki>]]</nowiki>" at the end of links when I hit it fast. Not other sections on the page, and not the edit summary box either...</small> - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : Go and actually read ] loll, Calidum is an editor who has dealt with you before. Hence I summon him.--] (]) 13:56, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| **<small>Tech issue appears to start after the "Separately from this close" quote above. - ] <sub>]</sub> 00:00, 11 January 2025 (UTC)</small> | |||
| *'''Another policy vio''' just committed: editing my comments in this ANI . Not a huge deal, but I think it demonstrates where the issues truly lie (or, with whom). -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">]</span> ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">] ]</span> 14:11, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| **:I put the discussion here because this is where the block was decided. Seems like it should go back to the same place? | |||
| **:I've had a really long couple of days but if there are still technical problems here tomorrow I'll look into it. ] ] 03:53, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Another comment''' and observation: Does MF really want an IBAN? and doesn't cause me to think so. The continued responses to me in this filing fall into that, as well. Then there's in the subsection below ({{tq|"No opposition votes yet, yay!"}}). It has since been removed by MF. What I ''am'' seeing (especially with the "Yay!" comment), is a desire to ]. -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">]</span> ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">] ]</span> 15:18, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ***:I ''think'' unblock requests usually go on AN, but that's fair. And as a further note, the "delay" between the "]]" typing gets longer the further I go down the page when editing that section. Editing just this subsection, it's just fine, so there's something in that quote or just below it that is making Firefox go pear-shaped. It's ''very'' weird. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:12, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Obviously everyone says "yay" when they're on their way of getting freedom from a hound.--] (]) 15:20, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Clearly you have some concerns about MaranoFan's conduct - and how many edits have you made, just in the last 3 hours, dealing with them? My question is this - why would you want to continue wasting your time with them? They want to disengage - if you agree as well, then why can't we do a voluntary iban here? Ignoring their conduct (which I have not reviewed)... honestly, you do seem to be pretty relentless in pointing out problems with their edits. Why bother? ] <sup> ] </sup>~<small> ] </small> 15:31, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::The issue is not so much a desire for an IBAN (which I don't have), the issue is that MF continually brings this kind of stuff up when it's largely his own doing. His harassment of me at my userspace and filings of bogus reports has been going on for over a year. There have been several discussions regarding his behavior previously. His usual response? When things get too hot for him and it's proven he's the cause of the issues he blames on others, he hightails it for the weeds with a script enforced Wiki-break. Admins have warned and warned him. A few examples of past discussions and enforcements (I encourage you and anyone reading this to look at them): , , , , , , . -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">]</span> ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">] ]</span> 15:48, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The issue, Winkelvi, is not whether you desire an IBAN, but why you're opposing one. MF has requested such a ban, which would immediately solve all the problems you mention, and yet you oppose it. To my eyes, this suggests that your main objective is simply to deny MF what they have requested, to be at the center of drama for whatever reason, or some combination of both. Agree to a voluntary IBAN and move on. If MF then violates the ban that they requested, you have a legitimate complaint. ―] ] 16:01, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Regardless of what the issue is (and it's really about MF's behavior and continued attempts to interact with me at another editor's talk page as well as my own since this was filed), I have a right to oppose an IBAN proposal that includes me. That in mind, how can me opposing it ''be'' an issue? Further, this comment from you, {{tq|"to be at the center of drama for whatever reason"}} makes no sense, since this filing not only involves me, but the filer put my name in the topic header. Regardless, the center of "the drama" is the filer, plain and simple, as I have pointed out with the numerous diffs provided. -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">]</span> ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">] ]</span> 16:09, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::No. That's precisely what this is not about. MaranoFan has indicated that they believe you are hounding them, and that they would like to not interact with you anymore. Your response, here, is that you are not hounding them, and by the way here are multiple diffs across multiple edits showing a variety of ways in which MaranoFan has violated policies. Do you understand that THAT behavior is what is at issue here? You're playing Gotcha with every edit they make, whether it's warranted or not. You've made your point about their behavior - and the fact that it's been posted here means that multiple admins will keep an eye on it. I'm asking that you drop the stick and leave it be. MaranoFan has asked here for an interaction ban with you, and you've done nothing but justify such a ban. So explain to us, please, what benefit to the project would we see from you continuing to interact with an editor who doesn't want to interact with you? ] <sup> ] </sup>~<small> ] </small> 17:17, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::You just told me I should stop giving evidence, then you told me I should drop the stick, and now you're asking me to give you more evidence and not drop the stick? What's more, it's obvious you haven't looked at any of the evidence presented by anyone here, if you had, you would see that I'm not the one who's interacting with this individual. Rather, it's the individual filing the report who's interacting with me. I'm fine with helpful comments from editors, but your comments here are confusing and contradict each other, and seem wholly unhelpful. Further, how helpful is it for you to comment and make demands if you have not truly looked into any of the links provided and given them any reasonable thought? -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">]</span> ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">] ]</span> 18:07, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I believe you missed my point. Let's assume that you've proven your point that MaranoFan is being disruptive. I don't concede that, but let's interpret the facts in the manner most favorable to you. So you've made your point - MaranoFan is being disruptive. Fine. Admins are now aware that they are being disruptive. So why would you want to continue interacting with MaranoFan? You want to show that they are violating policy? Mission accomplished. What now? You're posting link after link about MaranoFan, and you've directly responded to their comments here repeatedly, so yes you are continuing to interact. I'm saying that there is no further purpose served by that interaction. So if this person is so disruptive and poisonous, why would you not want them banned from posting to or about you? You would be banned from posting to or about them, of course, but who cares? If you're not interacting with them, as you claim, then what difference would an interaction ban make? "Yes, I agree not to do the thing I'm not doing" is no sanction. Would it make things easier if MaranoFan agreed to the ban first? ] <sup> ] </sup>~<small> ] </small> 18:23, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::What would help is if MF would leave me alone. Stay out of my userspace (which he's been warned about continually for over a year), stop filing ridiculous reports against me (which he's also been warned about continuously for a year). He claims hounding but has no proof of it (because I'm not hounding him). If he wants to be left alone, then he can show good faith and do the same. I will not agree to an interaction ban because I have done nothing that warrants it nor the black mark it brings. -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">]</span> ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">] ]</span> 18:41, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::In other words, you are indeed requesting an IBAN. You do seem to have a knack for this, as evidenced with my interactions with you. If MF is requesting a IBAN, then I don't get the big deal to agree to it. Your posts above, at least to me, do show a sort of hounding and it would do you well to stay away from MF and let others deal with the edits in question. ] <sup><font color="Green">]</font></sup> 19:39, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ===Official discussion=== | |||
| * '''Support''' - I want to finally start doing good work for Misplaced Pages, uninterrupted.--] (]) 13:49, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Oppose'''. Looks to me like MF isn't really after an IBAN after all. message directed to WV on my talk page is on a par with harassment. If she has an unshakable and obsessive want for an IBAN so much, she should just stay away from him... --] ] ] 14:46, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :That comment was directed at Ches, as he archived the above thread which could've taken a negative turn. I still want an IBAN with WV. ] (]) 14:36, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Indeed, {{U|MaranoFan}}. It was not appreciated. --] ] ] 15:11, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Okay, but I fail to see how that dif is "harassment" or a rationale against an iban, regardless of who it was made to. I don't follow your argument at all. ] ] 19:04, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{U|Sergecross73}}, my argument is that the two editors in question should not interact further (despite MF's posts on WV's talk page '''after''' the AN/I filing...) without any formal interaction ban placed between them. Neither party needs this "black mark" sanction placed on them. Is it too much to ask? --] ] ] 19:08, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::That's fair, I guess I was just thrown off by your "harassment" remark. That seems to be...a bit of a misrepresentation or misinterpretation of the dif. But if you feel that these two are capable of discussion that won't bring continued disruption to the project, so be it, I guess. I just don't share that optimism, considering how long this probablem has been occurring. ] ] 19:13, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I had asked MF to stay off my talk page, {{U|Sergecross73|Serge}}, and yet the posts continued. If anything, this IBAN would be pointless on the basis that I ''know'' Winkelvi already has ceased communication with MaranoFan, and yet Marano continues to interact. In addition to this, no administrator could possibly argue that the community is 100% in favour of it. If I were an uninvolved admin, I would close this as no consensus, and I am certain that this will be the outcome. --] ] ] 16:54, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Well, its probably good you're in no position to close this discussion then, because you'd be raked over the coals for closing this discussion now as no consensus, considering its only been running about a day, and the last comment was left like 5 minutes ago, so discussion in clearly still active and consensus is still forming. Not to mention it currently leaning towards "support". (But the fact that you don't see that is the very reason why INVOLVED exists, so that's good at least.) ] ] 17:08, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::That's ''exactly'' why I am not an admin, {{U|Sergecross73}}! The '''Support''' !votes only slightly outnumber the '''Oppose''' ones, so in all honesty I still do not see a consensus. I can see either that happening, or a landslide '''Support''' majority later... --] ] ] 17:29, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Not for nothing, but three admins have commented here (Only, Ultra and Serge) and they've all supported the proposed interaction ban. '''<span style="border: 1px blue solid;background:Cyan">] ]</span>''' 02:26, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support''' - If ] wants Winkelvi to back off then he should back off. Also, MF should work harder at avoiding WV whenever possible. WV needs to learn to stop lecturing other editors and focus more on making improvements to Misplaced Pages. I fully support the IBAN. These comments are based upon interaction with WV. Please note how WV responds to my good faith comments here. It will tell you everything that you need to know about this IBAN request.--] (]) 15:35, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''': Insufficient evidence presented to merit an IBAN. Insufficient evidence that lesser remedies (e.g., mutual avoidance) have been tried and failed. I believe indef-length IBANs should be avoided unless that element of the IBAN is independently justified, and I'm not seeing any such justification. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 17:18, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :{{ping|Mendaliv}} Is enough for "evidence"? The only reason anyone opposed was because I was on a script-enforced wikibreak.--] (]) 18:47, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Even assuming I could support an IBAN on the basis of that thread, I will not support one of indef length without further justification. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 20:14, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. The previous request, which was archived without a proper closure, is viewable ]. As the filer of that request, I think the evidence there was quite compelling. Though I haven't followed the situation of late, I don't think much has changed between MF and WV since then given the tenor of comments such as "same shit, different day" , this diatribe (the whole thread there is truly illuminating), or this pointy revert . '''<span style="border: 1px blue solid;background:Cyan">] ]</span>''' 17:55, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' - I was requested to comment here, which makes sense, as I tried to mediate some disputes between the two of them in the past I believe. Even before that, I saw this pop up on my watchlist was likely going to give my two cents. Anyways, I think an iban would help make both of their efforts more constructive, so they can focus on content and not each other. They're arguments have been going on for a long time, and I think everyone would be better off if they'd just go work on the opposite ends of pop music work on content separately. ] ] 18:56, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Calling a editor out on their faults and then observing the chastened editor develop ANI-flu is not harassment. I would suggest that if {{U|Winkelvi}} sees faults with {{U|MaranoFan}}'s editing, that they bring it to a neutral admin to help correct the issue. MaranoFan should go back and read ] and ] closer as their claims of not canvassing/adminshopping falls flat on it's face. MaranoFan should observe other well established policies (like ] which prohibits deleting other users talk page commentary barring extraordinary situations) lest they end up on the wrong side of sanctions. This iBan request reads more like MaranoFan trying to neutralize a significant and '''frequently correct''' critic of their work, which iBans are not to be used for. ] (]) 19:00, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{ping|Hasteur}} But it is not Canvassing or adminshopping, these are people who were involved at which was precisely about the same thing as this, only failed because I was inactive.--] (]) 19:03, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::If you cannot see that the items that WV presented are Canvassing/AdminShopping I call into question your ] because the notices are nowhere near neutral in addition to your conduct faults indicates that your privileges need to be restricted, not WV. I again reiterate my advice to both of you. ] (]) 00:39, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose, possible boomerang''' based solely on the diffs provided here. MaranoFan has not demonstrated any hounding, stalking, or other inability to edit constructively with WV. WV, however, has provided a good amount of evidence against MaranoFan showing a history of disruption. Given that WV seems disinclined to agree to an iban, it's up to the filer to demonstrate the need for one. I see no such demonstration. ] ] <small>Please {{]}}</small> 19:30, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::But there can't be a boomerang, as I am asking for a two-sided IBAN. There will either be an IBAN or there won't be one. Please get your facts straight.--] (]) 19:37, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Blocks, tbans, and one-way ibans are always options. Your behavior here and in the diffs is atrocious thus far... ] ] <small>Please {{]}}</small> 19:46, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::MaranoFan, I've been here for more than 2 years and have participated in plenty of ANI reports since last year. I know well enough that what EvergreenFir is said is correct. Any kind of report will involve scrutiny of editors involved, whether it be the filer or not. ] applies to any kind of situation, regardless it be a preposition or not. I recommend that ''you'' get your facts straight. ] <span style="color:red">🍁</span> ] ] 01:01, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' Somewhat based on my own dealings with WV, if MF is requesting an IBAN, then that should be accepted. WV needs to learn how to lay off and know when to call it quits and if staying away from MF will do Wiki good, then it should pass. ] <sup><font color="Green">]</font></sup> 19:41, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''', per both editors' comments in this thread. MaranoFan asked for the ban but then keeps commenting on Winkelvi, while Winkelvi refuses to stop commenting on MaranoFan. It's obvious that neither one is going to leave the other alone. So let's have an interaction ban, and then some blocks when the ban is violated. Nothing here is going to improve the project one bit - so we need to put a stop to it. ] <sup> ] </sup>~<small> ] </small> 19:42, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' - Any editor should be able to get an IBAN with any other editor if they feel their interactions are not productive. I don't believe that Winkelvi is the only editor in the project who (1) is capable of dealing with whatever problems MaranoFan presents, and (2) would be willing to do so. Therefore there is no need for continued contact between these two parties. It should go without saying that we'll have a problem if MF requests an IBAN with any editor who opposes them; for now, I see this as an avoidable personality conflict. ―] ] 19:58, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{re|Mandruss}} Ibans burden both parties though. Do you think there's enough evidence here to support claims that WV is somehow harassing or unable to constructively edit with MF? ] ] <small>Please {{]}}</small> 20:05, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::I disagree that an IBAN would necessarily burden Winkelvi. If the concept of a "no-fault divorce" doesn't exist here, it should in my view. If it's not necessary to establish fault, the presence or absence of evidence is irrelevant. ―] ] 20:08, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::By the way, I would find it problematic if a Winkelvi->MaranoFan IBAN were established and then {{u|Chesnaught555}} started (continued?) to actively oppose MF. WV and Ches are so closely allied that they are effectively almost one and the same person, and Ches would simply become a proxy for Winkelvi in disputes with MF. I'm not advocating a second IBAN at this point, but I hope Ches would recognize the problem and also avoid MF. ―] ] 20:29, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{U|Mandruss}}, of course sir. I asked MF to stay off my talk page and I hope they follow that advice - I also don't wish for any further interaction with them. --] ] ] 20:33, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Excellent, thank you. ―] ] 20:35, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::No problem, {{U|Mandruss}}. I do hope you understand why I am not in favour of any formal sanctions. Simply ''informally'' staying away from MF may be the best way forward, and I do not see any consensus on this !vote. I am certain that Winkelvi will agree on this one considering he is not in favour of the IBAN, either. --] ] ] 20:41, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' - Each of these two editors seem to be bringing out the worst in the other, and apparently this has been going on in some form for at least a year. Ultraexactzz and Mandruss bring a lot of clarity to the situation. We don't need a mountain of evidence, nor do we need to wait for a total blowup before we simply tell these editors to stay away from each other, stop worrying about each others edits, and stop posting innuendo on third party editor's talk pages.- ]] 20:50, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' if this eliminates the near constant sniping and back and forth bickering between the two users. They cannot keep apart from each other even when they say they want nothing to do with each other. They clearly can't do so the community must force them to avoid each other. ] (]) 21:17, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. I don't understand this request, which was brought to my attention on my talk page. Based on the very first post by MF requesting this IBAN, these two editors have not been interacting. WV has mentioned this person to other editors. Simply not a reasonable request. I get mentioned now and then by other editors. That's how the bisquit crumbles. Nor do I understand the harm done. Mind you am not in the WV fan club, and I assume that's why I was approached, but this discussion does not add to the totality of man's knowledge in any way. ] (]) 21:42, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' Just by looking at the back and forth between these two in this thread, it seems obvious they can't collaborate constructively together. An interaction ban is needed to separate these two, and it would be a benefit to both editors and the project.--]] 22:01, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' UltraExactZZ, Mandruss and MrX have analyzed the situation accurately. I am in full agreement with their assessments. ] ] 23:14, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' I ''do'' see a hounding issue that needs to be addressed, as per WV's message on Calvin999's talk page. However, what I do is MaranoFan's mishandling of the issue. Her/his (I don't remember the gender) message on WV's talk page and what seems to be an edit on WV's user page is enough provoke anyone. I don't see how an IBAN would help anyone, since interaction is very small if at all. As much as I don't like WV, I just don't see how the IBAN is any way going to resolve the issue. ] <span style="color:red">🍁</span> ] ] 01:15, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :<small>Please note that this will be my last time posting in this thread</small> {{tq|I don't see how an IBAN would help anyone}} But it will help both parties, solving the issue you describe above. This two-sided iban will also prevent me from editing his userspace. As anyone who will read his posts conclude, "WV is asking for an IBAN without knowing he wants one".--] (]) 06:50, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Your edit proved this to be either a lie or a broken promise and therefore whatever credibility you have left is in the sewer along with other refuse. ] (]) 12:54, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' As others have already pointed out, my actions do not merit an IBan. Whether MF's actions do, I'll leave up to others to decide. I will say this about MF running here for his allegations that I am hounding him: He needs to toughen up and stop coming to administrators and other editors with complaints about those he feels have wronged, bullied, harassed, and hounded him. Along the same lines - as others have also pointed out to him - he needs to get a grip on what hounding truly is and isn't. Sans that understanding, it's no surprise to me that he hasn't been able to provide one shred of evidence that I have been hounding him. | |||
| :I completely object to the proposition that I would have to wear an IBan stigma badge when it's unnecessary for me and when I have done nothing that warrants such a stigma and black mark on my editing career in Misplaced Pages. And, frankly, I have to wonder MF understands what an IBan will really mean for him going forward. | |||
| :Something else that needs to be pointed out: one of the big differences between MF and I as far as this report: he has felt the need to go to numerous editors to get support for his IBan "proposal", in fact he has gone to those he perceives to be my Misplaced Pages enemies and/or detractors. If that doesn't tell anyone reading this something important about MFs purpose in this report as well as his attitude toward me, I don't know what will. On the flip side, who have I gone to in order to gain support? No one at all. Why? Because (1) It's against policy (canvassing), and (2) I haven't done anything that warrants an IBan, therefore, I don't feel a need to defend myself or ask others to stand up for me. | |||
| :I do need to address those who say that there is continued "sniping" or disruptive/unconstructive behavior between the two of us. Let me point out that a little over a month ago, I tried very, very hard to make a good faith gesture toward MF and offer an olive branch in the way of reviewing an article he nom'd for GA. Everything I did and said from the first review comments to the ultimate fail and final comments (all to be seen ) were fair and extremely civil toward MF. How did he respond? Continuing to chide and poke and behave rudely toward me (example here: ). One thing that whole experience shows: I have no problem with or inability in treating MF with civility and fairness. The only one who does have difficulty in this area is the person who filed the report. And, as another already stated, pointing out MFs bad fruit and policy vios and bad behavior is ''not'' wrong, nor is it the problem here. The person producing bad fruit and committing policy vios and bad behavior who complains about someone pointing out these issues and running to AN/I when it happens, is. | |||
| :There's really not much more for me to say, except to address Sir Joseph who tried to put words in my mouth when he said, {{tq|"In other words, you are indeed requesting an IBAN."}} No, I didn't say that at all SJ. How you got that impression is beyond my comprehension. -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">]</span> ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">] ]</span> 01:31, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per a year ago by {{noping|Calidum}}, which had a supermajority of Support, but was archived without close. If this problem has still persisted one year later, it's time for the IBan to happen. After enaction, the IBan can be re-assessed a year from now and if both parties are agreeable, it can be removed. ] (]) 02:18, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' - MaranoFan has been bringing all of this on himself for ''months''. He is rude, non-compliant, not willing to listen, doesn't understand the rules and guidelines of Misplaced Pages, canvasses for reviews on a weekly basis and has no respect for anyone. He is cold and calculating. MF requesting an IBAN against the very placid, calm and peaceful editor that is Winkelvi is nothing more than a childish, immature and non-starter attempt at trying to garner some attention, which MF thrives on. If anything, MF should be banned from contacting Winkelvi, not the other way around. MF should be blocked from editing from his disgusting and '''highly provocative''' behaviour on WP over the past couple of weeks. I'm more than happy to provide a multitude of diffs is required. — ] 09:18, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :], you are both black.--] (]) 09:41, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :: Racist. — ] 10:18, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :Since Calvin999 hasn't provided even a single diff, I feel compelled to state that "{{xt|rude, non-compliant, not willing to listen, doesn't understand the rules and guidelines of Misplaced Pages, canvasses ... and has no respect for anyone}}" describe Calvin999, as evidenced by the mass of notable ] song articles he AfDed after MaranoFan worked on them, and by these recent ANIs: , , , , . And calling Winkelvi a "{{xt|very placid, calm and peaceful editor}}" is ludicrous to anyone who has actually interacted with him or looked at his block log or seen his editing style or his bloodhound-like stalking of editors he dislikes or has issues with. ] (]) 01:11, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{tq|"...or seen his editing style or his bloodhound-like stalking of editors he dislikes or has issues with."}}. Diffs are required for such an outrageous claim, and I see no reason why this unprovoked, extreme personal attack from you should go unchallenged, {{U|Softlavender}}. In fact, I'm considering opening a complaint about it. You are welcome to give irrefutable evidence that what you've said is accurate or strike it. Your choice. -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">]</span> ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">] ]</span> 14:55, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::I dunno, several of your comments in this very thread could be used to support the contention that you have pursued Maranofan with "bloodhound-like" focus (though that's a far cry from stalking, as such). The fact that you absolutely refuse to back off and drop the stick would support that statement as well. Softlavender may have been overly harsh in their phrasing, but the sentiment is absolutely on point. ] <sup> ] </sup>~<small> ] </small> 18:00, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{tq|"several of your comments in this very thread could be used to support the contention that you have pursued Maranofan with "bloodhound-like" focus"}} Providing diffs as evidence that this report is not only frivolous but (as another editor noted below) a complete waste of time and to show the filer is walking very close into ] territory is not pursuing anyone. It's doing what's required and necessary to defend oneself in this snake-pit called AN/I. | |||
| ::::{{tq|"you absolutely refuse to back off and drop the stick"}} Really? Please provide diffs from this AN/I that support such an accusation. -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">]</span> ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">] ]</span> 18:18, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::K. , in which you refuse to stop interacting with MF despite their request. There are others, of course. ] <sup> ] </sup>~<small> ] </small> 20:37, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Your claim was, {{tq|"you absolutely refuse to back off and drop the stick"}}. I asked you to provide evidence I ever said or did either. You reply with a diff to this comment from me: {{tq|"I will not agree to an interaction ban because I have done nothing that warrants it nor the black mark it brings."}}, and then further claim that I stated I {{tq|"...refuse to stop interacting with MF despite their request"}} Your evidence does not show I refused to back off, nor does it show I am not dropping the stick. My comment obviously is what it appears: I will not agree to a formal interaction ban because I have done nothing wrong and no evidence has been given by MF that an IBan is warranted. This has already been pointed out by others in this thread, as well. This in mind, I do not deserve nor have I created a situation that the stigma or burden of a formal and/or indefinite IBan would bring. Further, I never said I was refusing to stop interacting with MF. Not once. Again, another misrepresentation from you - actually, an out-and-out lie. I don't appreciate you falsely representing what I've said nor do I appreciate being lied to and about. Especially by an administrator. -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">]</span> ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">] ]</span> 20:59, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Block''' for {{u|MaranoFan}} whose behaviour even here has been less than collegial at times. ] <sup>''''']'''''</sup> 16:09, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Should we have this as an alternative proposal? I see no consensus for the IBAN, and I do concur with {{U|Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|Fortuna}} here... --] ] ] 16:47, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::I am open for that discussion. That comment with its edit summary really showcase how this user reacts and in no way is it acceptable. ] <span style="color:red">🍁</span> ] ] 02:01, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I concur, {{U|Callmemirela|Mirela}}. Should we start a new section with this alternative proposal? --] ] ] 10:53, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::{{ping|Chesnaught555}} A sub-section, yes. ] <span style="color:red">🍁</span> ] ] 23:48, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' I disagree with the canvassing, but I agree that MaranoFan needs to cool down. Let's see if an IBAN would allow her to focus on content creation and other more useful activities. I am unfamiliar with the history between Winkelvi and MaranoFan, but I recently see quite a bit of edit warring and disputes arising from comparatively minor issues. ]] 16:29, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::You don't see any recent edit warring from me, {{U|SSTflyer}}. I'd appreciate it if you would revise your comment and be more concise. If the edit warring is coming from MF, then you need to say that so others will not get the wrong impression. It's not me edit warring, please correct your comment. -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">]</span> ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">] ]</span> 18:01, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| : '''Support'''. Neither of these editors have clean hands in their interactions with each other, so a two-way IBAN seems to make the most sense. ] (]) 11:05, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. Essentially agree with ] analysis by {{u|EvergreenFir}} (), and harassment analysis by {{u|Chesnaught555}} (), above. Cheers, — ''']''' (]) 14:57, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :*I don't support an IBAN, but I don't support a "boomerang" for MF either. She was provoked by comments about her and is oversensitive. The diffs cited don't demonstrate harassment; I actually think the one on WV's page was a kind of gesture of appreciation, not sarcastic. Let's just drop this big waste of time. ] (]) 17:03, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' as the least we can do to give ] a break from the harassment I've been observing for months. ]'s characterization of WV style is completely accurate. Anything Ches says is quite suspect for as someone else noted Ches & WV are essentially joined at the hip, to the point I wonder if one is not a sock of the other. ] (]) 06:07, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ===Arbitrary break=== | |||
| {{hat|Hatting this before the childish back-and-forth continues. --] ] ] 19:30, 29 March 2016 (UTC)}} | |||
| {{U|MaranoFan}}, it would be within your best interest not to badger all the '''Oppose''' !voters. This will not help your case. --] ] ] 19:10, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :That is called making your case. In a court, you try to convince jury members who don't support you. Winkelvi is welcome to do so if he wishes.--] (]) 19:13, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::This isn't a court case, {{U|MaranoFan}}. Re-adding subsection as an arbitrary break means something which isn't directly related to the previous discussion. I am not adding another !vote, and therefore it is required. --] ] ] 19:15, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::And this is bogging discussion down either further. I recommend deleting this and saving it for Marano's talk page if you truly need to continue. I don't even follow why you're advising Marano when you're actively against Marano's proposal anyways. Regardless, please take this elsewhere, its just taking away from the actual discussion. ] ] 19:26, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| {{hab}} | |||
| == User AmitPaul23 == | |||
| Disruptive user {{user|103.41.212.74}} who later created account {{user|AmitPaul23}} to circumvent semi-protection: | |||
| * 13:51, March 28, 2016: "Muslms cannot be trusted" () | |||
| * 14:43, March 28, 2016: Blanket revert () | |||
| I left a notification for the above user on his talk page here: ]. | |||
| ] (]) 14:37, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| I diocussed in talk page, your the one andalsi who reverted without agreement <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 20:18, 29 March 2016 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| * This is a brand new editor, those who edit using an IP are allowed to register and this is not "circumventing" anything. They've made ''one'' edit to ]. They seem to have a relatively low level of language ability in English, but you should try talking to them about consensus, no personal attacks and neutral point of view before coming here so quickly. ]<span style="background-color:white; color:#808080;">&</span>] 18:04, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{re|Fences and windows}} Regarding my "circumventing" comment: An administrator intervened earlier and . That is when AmitPaul23 appeared. This is the only reason why Amit abandoned IP editing and transferred his editing to the registered account. Notice that the user made zero contributions on the talk page besides inquiring on ways to revert content, because "Muslms cannot be trusted". After a comment like that, I do find it strange that you fault me for failing to welcome and educate the "newcomer"! Meanwhile, another ] (]) 20:57, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :* I agree and disagree with {{U|Fences and windows}}. This ''appears to be'' a new user with ''possibly'' limited English skills, but this user has made it obvious that he is unwilling or unable to understand WP policies by using edits to ask '''How do I...?''' and '''Why can't I...?''' question and even to make complaints about WP process (see ,, , , ). | |||
| :* Since the user's most recent edit is a reply on his own Talk page we know the user is now aware of it and thus has seen some of the helpful posts put there for new users as well as some of the rapidly accumulating warning templates. It may be that he never knew to look there and so I am going to ] and say the clock starts with that edit now that we know for a fact he has seen the Welcome advise. | |||
| :* The reasons I disagree and why I use phrases like "''appears to be'' a new user" and "''possibly'' limited English skills" are these more sophisticated edits and which demonstrate better than average understanding of WP templates and table syntax, knowledge potentially far beyond the level of a user who uses article talk page edits to ask why? and how?. | |||
| :* Additionally it cannot be ignored that this user is '''not''' as new as one would think since the '''AmitPaul23''' account was actually created '''January 2, 2016''' and the first and only thing the user did back then was create a substantial (albiet off-topic) Talk Page section on our beloved Main Page. I think it is also notable that this single edit was done '''''twenty-four days''''' after creating the account, very non-typical behavior. | |||
| :* <font color=orange>Finally, and of great concern, is ANY user making edits on Islam-related articles while simultaneously leaving comments such as those in which is both Islamophobic ({{tq|"''Muslms cannot be trusted''"}}) and a ] ({{tq|"''What kind of name is Andalusi, seems ISsupporter''"}}). THAT behavior is potentially an ANI issue.</font> | |||
| :: ] (<small>KTOM's ] & ]</small>) 20:39, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::: {{ping|Koala Tea Of Mercy}} There have been some rumors on possible links between that user and {{u|Misconceptions2}} (who has a sock puppetry history), I think that would possibly, if true, coherently explain your 4<sup>th</sup> point. I think investigating about that may reveal some possible connection. | |||
| ::: 20:52, 29 March 2016 (UTC)] (]) | |||
| :::: {{ping|CounterTime}} Since I am unfamiliar with these "rumors" please open an SPI on the subject at your convenience. Thanks. ] (<small>KTOM's ] & ]</small>) 20:55, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::* Sockpuppetry allegations belong at ] not here. Otherwise the first comment is approaching ] levels. -- ] (]) 21:01, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: Agreed {{U|Ricky81682}}. That is why I told CounterTime to open the SPI per procedure. User {{ping|MusikAnimal}} may also be interested in this discussion for other reasons. ] (<small>KTOM's ] & ]</small>) 21:07, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *I'm monitoring the page and am not blocking anyone just yet... It's true that previous protections were with the disputed content intact (protecting current version is procedural). When it the content gets removed, we see new editors show up. AmitPaul23 in particular has now been given fair notice about relevant sanctions and warnings for edit warring <span style="font-family:sans-serif">— <span style="font-weight:bold">] <sup>]</sup></span></span> 21:11, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *:This had better do the trick. Page protected, this time with the disputed content removed. I want to see the other side engage in discussion, and when the time comes, seek formal closure. This has gone on long enough. Sockpuppetry or not we will find a true established consensus and put an end to this edit war, once and for all <span style="font-family:sans-serif">— <span style="font-weight:bold">] <sup>]</sup></span></span> 02:35, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Agree with {{u|Ricky81682}}, above, that the best place to present evidence for sockpuppetry would be to file a new case page at ], where it will trigger analysis from outside admins to investigate the matter further. — ''']''' (]) 15:58, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| Conflict of interest paid editing account ] is being used only for promotional purposes on ]. Slow edit warring, adding the same promotional info without any discussion on the talk page, article ownership issues. Has been blocked before for his behaviour and repeatedly warned but carries on regardless. ] (]) 22:16, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :This certainly doesn't look good. From their talk page "As part of my role, I am required to keep the Mansfield Town FC and John Radford (businessman) pages up to date. Therefore, I will be continuing to edit the pages." As they have been reverted multiple times by several different users, yet continue to make the same edits (at least 10-15 times), I suggest a month-long block for now and an indefinite topic ban from Mansfield Town-related articles if other admins have no objections? ] ]] 22:55, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::I've blocked this editor for 30 days. No objection to the topic ban. ] <sup> ] </sup>~<small> ] </small> 23:06, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Just for record, this editor has a major COI with this article as a simple search reveals they are the Media and Communications Assistant at Mansfield Town FC. ] (]) 23:10, 29 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::If he can post accurate information and sources on the talk page, and let others post the information after it's verified, I've got no problem. But "It's correct because I say it's correct" just ain't gonna fly. I'll watchlist and see what they do. ] <sup> ] </sup>~<small> ] </small> 13:51, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Agree with this analysis of best practice and suggested talk page usage by {{u|Ultraexactzz}}, above. Good recommendations. Cheers, — ''']''' (]) 15:51, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| == Content removal == | |||
| To ANI, | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Salah_Abdeslam&action=history | |||
| taking into account the previous warnings the editor has had on edit warring, I provide the following for the attention of those concerned with this issue: | |||
| https://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools-ec/?user=Parsley+Man&project=en.wikipedia.org: | |||
| Total edits: 3,645, | |||
| Reverted edits: 68, | |||
| 86.8% of edit total are Article edits. | |||
| Most edits done by this editor (first three listed): | |||
| *369 ] -"The occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge was an armed standoff in Harney County, Oregon, United States, between armed anti-government militants and county, state, and federal law enforcement agencies." | |||
| *208 ] | |||
| *177 ] | |||
| I think this editor is dealing with subjects which complement each other, and keeping this editor would prove to be of benefit to wikipedia, because he has chosen to largely specialise in an area of editing which I've indicated. Unfortunately he has for some reason removed content, which to me seems unjustified in at least this particular case: | |||
| edit 20:21, 29 March 2016 - His father was born in 1949, in ], Algeria. (ref name=" Christophe273 ") | |||
| I decided to retain this information, and the reason I chose to give was "the french version has this info" - Le père de Salah Abdeslam est un Marocain né à Oran, en Algérie française, en 1949 - L. Christophe, « Salah Abdeslam, d’un vol raté à Limelette au carnage de Paris (PORTRAIT) » , La Libre.be, 19 mars 2016 (consulté le 27 mars 2016). | |||
| The editor in question has removed additional content which I see no reason to omit. | |||
| sincerely, ] (]) 10:34, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| P.S. I just thought to add, my experience of this editor in contribution to ] (please see https://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools-articleinfo/?article=Salah_Abdeslam&project=en.wikipedia.org - Top editors), prior to this issue, is he (/she...) has made a positive contribution to the editorial process. Which is of course a given, or else a notification would have been posted here earlier. This was his first edit on the article 02:20, 18 December 2015 Parsley Man (talk | contribs) m - https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Salah_Abdeslam&offset=20160320010010&limit=500&action=history - 115 edits, 7 minor edits since then. ] (]) 10:49, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :How is this an AN/I issue? Discuss it with him on the talk page. --] (]) 11:03, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :{{nonadmin}} Content dispute. Please read ], ] and the heading of this page. Unless you are accusing The Other Editor of some sort of unacceptable behavior and provide evidence gor those transgressions in the form of links, this does not belong on ]. The fact that ''you'' don't see a reason, does not mean there aren't any (], ]). ] (]) 11:09, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :Indeed, I started a discussion regarding the material I deleted on the talk page . ] (]) 13:46, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ===Further Discussion of Community block appeal by ]=== | |||
| == About a Range block due to a "Disruptive anonymous user (Portuguese)" == | |||
| Any replies from Drbogdan to further comments here may be copied over. ] ] 23:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' I'm not sure what that stream of consciousness is trying to say but it goes nowhere near addressing the issues resulting in the ban. ] (]) 23:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' I'm not seeing anything in the Wall of text that shows the editor understands why they were banned and how their behaviour needs to change. ] (]) 23:54, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' I see nothing here that suggests Drbogdan understands the problem and is willing to take positive steps to avoid it. Rather the opposite. ] (]) 00:20, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' unblock request does not address the reason for their ban. And the content of the request just goes to show why the ban should be continued and why they are not of benefit to the community and are just wasting other editor's time. ] ] 01:06, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' fails to address the reason the ban was given, nor give any adequate assurances that the behavior that resulted in the ban will not be an issue going forward.] (]) 02:14, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Oppose:''' The standard offer requires that banned users promise to avoid engaging in the behaviors that led to their ban. I do not see any such promise in this unblock request, so this appeal should be struck down. ] (]) 06:12, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Hi. Note that I don't know much about range blocks. I accidentally tried to edit while logged out (which I never do for years) and I noticed that my IP is blocked. It is a range block, discussed here recently, at '']'' (at archive #918). The requested range was "2001:8A0:6CC4:5601:*", and I sure do not know if that is a lot or not. But I do know that at least some of it belongs to ], one of the largest ]s in Portugal, because mine does. If the range is wide, it means that we are blocking non logged in editors from a possibly large portion of Portugal, for the duration of '''one month''', because of some persistent disruptive user. It may be a bit harsh, no? (Again, kind-of-disclaimers: | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. The unblock request provides neither adequate specifics to convince me that the previous ban was improperly applied, nor any apology nor promise to do better regarding the behavior that led to the ban. —] (]) 07:53, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I don't know much about range blocks; and I am obviously from, and at, Portugal) - ] (]) 22:12, 30 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' - The unblock request largely shows the same issues they were blocked for - self promo (links to facebook, wordpress and livejournal), not taking on community advice (all responses are "nuh-uh, not true"), and difficulties communicating (formatting is a mess and responses are only tangentially related to what they are quoting). Their defense is mainly "I never did anything that bad", not the required acknowledgement of the problem and indication of improval. In the unblock request they specificly use of the ] article as an example of a good contribution - which has {{tq|The name ''Jazzy'', for example, was taken from a girl named Jazzy who grew up in Grand Junction, Colorado, USA. Her father worked for NASA and contributed to the findings and naming of the rocks.}} unsourced in the second paragraph. ] ] 09:55, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :''(pinging everybody, please add if I forgot someone: {{ping|Diannaa|Mike V|JamesBWatson|Od Mishehu|EvergreenFir|Oshwah|Materialscientist}} {{ping|SLBedit}})'' | |||
| == Unconstructive editing by Wolverine X-eye == | |||
| *]: It appears to be a '''soft''' rangeblock (rather than a hard rangeblock), so that means anyone who wishes to create a registered account from that IP range still can, and can edit that way. So no one is actually blocked form editing -- they are simply blocked from using IPs to edit. Also, your ]s didn't work, because you have to type four tildes at the very same time as you type and post the pings (and no, adding the tildes in a later post won't make the pings work.) ] (]) 02:19, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| **], I did not knew that about the ''pings'', thank you. (I'll re-read it). And so, here they go again. {{ping|Diannaa|Mike V|JamesBWatson|Od Mishehu|EvergreenFir}} {{ping|Oshwah|Materialscientist|SLBedit}}) Hi! Sure, the warning message said I/they may edit if they create an account. Nevertheless, it is allowed to edit using only an IP, and a potentially large part o my country lost that "right" for a month, because of some guy. It may be common blocking policy, that is something I don't follow often, but it looks kind of harsh - ] (]) 20:41, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *Only ten IPs have edited using that range since September and they appear all to be the one person. --] (]) 10:17, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ** Could be that the range covers a relatively small area - maybe the disruptive editor it is the guy next door to me :-) Anyway, if the edits are that rare, why a one month range block?... Maybe protecting a couple of pages would do. Oh well... I am not going to complain much about it. I just hope that people is aware that it is a ISPs IP, and the range MAY be a large part of a medium sized country. (Would we block a large part of, e.g., North Carolina, USA?) - ] (]) 20:41, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ***Way too many pages to be protected, and, like Malcolmxl5 said, that IP range appears to have been used by the disruptive user only, since September. ] (]) 20:48, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :A large number of IPs doesn't always mean a large number of users are affected. I've come across /16 IPv4 ranges where there's one, maybe two people on it. Since it's anon only, those with accounts can use it. If anyone wants to edit, they can go through the account creation process as noted on the block template. I don't think a month is too long of a block. <span style="font-family: Palatino;"> ] • ]</span> 20:57, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :: That is particularly true when we are dealing with IP v6 ranges, as we are here. For some reason that I don't understand, some ISPs allocate huge batches of IP addresses to just one connection, so that blocking a large number of IP addresses may actually affect very few people. I didn't place this block, but I have in the past placed blocks on very large IP v6 ranges, after I have checked the history, and found that all the edits that I can see from the range have clearly been from the same person. I have just checked the editing history of a couple of dozen IP addresses in the blocked range, over a period extending back to February 2015. By no means all of them appear to have been the disruptive editor who the block was intended to stop, but of those that weren't, '''every single edit that I saw''' was either vandalism, spam, or point-of-view pushing. That doesn't necessarily mean that there have been no constructive edits in the range, but it does suggest that if there are any then their number is very small, so that any collateral damage will probably be tiny in proportion to the benefit of the block. {{ping|Nabla}} <small>''The editor who uses the pseudonym''</small> "]" (]) 21:19, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| == IP: 86.154.103.86 / 81.131.172.210 / 81.131.171.81 == | |||
| An IP user with at least three IPs (86.154.103.86 / 81.131.172.210 / 81.131.171.81 ) has been persistently undoing the implementation of a long-discussed plan to consolidate redundant material that existed in a range of different articles. The plan was to remove the redundant material and place it in only one article, with links to that article from the others. An anonymous user who is obviously new to Misplaced Pages should not be allowed to disrupt this process. | |||
| I am posting this here because, among other concerns of continued disruptive editing, I believe that this user's actions are impacting the quality and integrity of the GAN process. I’ve looked at this for long enough and tried to aid where possible, but it seems that @] is unwilling to change their behaviour on this website, hence why I saw fit to bring this here. | |||
| Here are his attempts to block implementation: | |||
| They have passed several articles through GAN over the past few months that exhibit many edits in a short period (numbering into the hundreds), often paired with unexplained removal of information. These absurdly high edit counts clog up page histories and are not exclusive to their GAN targets either, as can be seen in ] three-month-old discussion on the user’s talk page from back when I first noticed this ‘unusual editing style’. Some examples from around this time follow below, although I should add that this editing pattern has not changed: | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| Wolverine has been asked multiple times to try and reduce their edit counts so that page histories remain useable, and despite saying they will, have refused to take any actual action in this regard. One can see this pattern repeated over and over on their contributions page. | |||
| Sadly, high edit counts with minimal change are the least of the issues present here. Most recently, Wolverine passed Fennec Fox, but after closing and reopening the GAN himself in the middle of an active (and not strictly positive) review by another user. A new review was started by another user within a few days, and while they did acknowledge the existence of the second review, nothing was done about its improper closing and only a few sentences were added to the article between the two reviews (which can be found and respectively) | |||
| In many places where editors don’t immediately agree with Wolverine, he turns to insults, personal attacks and otherwise inappropriate comments. A non-exhaustive list of examples follows below: | |||
| <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 23:47, 30 March 2016 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| * Under ‘Your talk page’, accusing another editor of inappropriately handling a discussion with a minor (the other user was, in fact, not a minor). | |||
| * Fennec fox GAN , | |||
| * List of pholidotans merge proposal , | |||
| * Narwhal talk page | |||
| * Own talk page | |||
| The user has also shown an unwillingness to put effort into article improvement when requested in the review processes, and an unwillingness to put effort into finishing reviews they start. Again, a non-exhaustive list of examples can be found below. | |||
| *Hi ], the correct way to deal with an IP-hopper who is repeatedly disrupting an article is to go to ] and request '''semi-protection''' of the article, explaining the reason. This will prevent IPs from editing the article. ] (]) 01:50, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| * Own talk page, starting and then not finishing two GA reviews (https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Wolverine_X-eye/Archive_2#Inactivity_during_reviews) and drive-by nomination of the World War I article, a bit of a while back when compared to other examples in this case (6 months). https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Wolverine_X-eye/Archive_2#Drive-by_nomination | |||
| *I semi-protected the article for a little while. But can I just say HOLY MOLY {{U|GBRV}}, you could have been a lot more clear. It's not until the last revert that a talk page is indicated where this discussion is to have taken place; there is nothing on the talk page of this article. You managed to place a templated alert on a bunch of IP talk pages, but on what IP talk page do I see an attempt to, you know, talk? Like to a human being? Because that's my last point, . We're all anonymous here. My real name is not Drmies. And there is nothing that somehow would allow a non-anonymous user (you mean "user with registered account") to undo some agreement--at least in this case, IPs and registered users are equal. Now please go and engage in conversation, not just in reverts and templated warnings. Why didn't you even mention the article in this posting? ] (]) 03:18, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| * After being advised to do a thorough check on all the citations in the narwhal page (see the closing comments on , Wolverine opened a for the article four days later stating that they ‘need to know where the article's source-to-text integrity is at’, indicating a fundamental lack of knowledge about the state of the article that he had, at this point, attempted to promote to FA four times in five months. In this same review, he also tried to get others to do a source review for him or make a peer review spot-check count in place of a spot-check at the next FAC. | |||
| :Drmies: First of all, thank you for protecting the article. Secondly: The discussions occurred at the following subsection of the talk page, although it's mixed in with a lot of other stuff and doesn't mention the "Chronology of Jesus" article by name because there are so many articles which all contained the same material that needed to be consolidated (we didn't need to mention each article individually): | |||
| :But my objection to this IP's edits stemmed from the fact that he was trying to nullify decisions that had been made in a contentious debate that has gone on for months in several different articles, and which he had never bothered to participate in. If any random person can single-handedly nullify decisions, that pretty much negates any reason to negotiate these things in the first place. That's why his edits have been reverted by three different people. It's tremendously frustrating to have all this effort undone by one guy who doesn't even bother to take the time to register, and yet the rest of us are expected to spend extra time debating him and gaining his approval? Thank you again for protecting the article. ] (]) 00:29, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| I hope that a satisfactory conclusion can be reached, and thank you for your time. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 00:29, 11 January 2025 (UTC)</small> | |||
| == K.C. Pant and Sureshpandey == | |||
| :I don't plan on getting involved in this, except to say that my ] that you linked to is a follow up. The original is from June and can be found higher up on that archive page at ]. ] (]) 00:48, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{user|Sureshpandey}} has been editing the ] page disruptively for more than a month now. Back in February, I tried to report him at ], but my report was not dealt with. Since that report, ], and has made multiple attempts to ] | |||
| ::Hi, {{u|The Morrison Man}}, let me address this promptly. So your first paragraph talks about the high number of edits I make to GAN pages. Well, I don't necessarily see that as a problem because you're the only editor who has made complaints about this, and if I may, I'm by no means the only editor who exhibits such behavior, so it's not at all clear to me why you're targeting me on this. Now regarding the 3 articles you listed, those were the articles that you brought to my attention in that discussion, and since then I've not repeated the behavior. The Fennec Fox incident is not an issue IMO. The editor in the first GAN clearly stated that they think the article was not up to GA-standards and that I should re-nominate it. Seeing that they were new to GAN and that they happened to be inactive at the time, I decided to help them close the nomination as that was their intention, but they didn't seem to know how to follow through with that. In Example 1, I read the whole discussion and it was pretty clear the editor was a minor. Sure, the talk page owner happened to talk to two people, one a minor, the other not, but they clearly spent more time with the minor talking about irrelevant stuff that aren't wiki-related. The editor even admits that they were in fact talking to a minor. The Fennec fox GAN examples are not personal attacks. They're just criticism. There's a difference. About Pholidota: I got a bit heated after Elmidae insulted and made hostile comments towards me. Yeah, that was a pretty contentious discussion overall. The Narwhal talk page link is not a personal attack or a insult, rather it's simply telling the IP to leave me alone as they were annoying me with those pings. I wanted to be as blunt as possible. The last link is just me explaining to a new editor why I reverted their edit. I said I didn't want to have the conversation again because if you look through the archives, you'll see that we had that exact discussion, but with a different article, before. I didn't think it was gonna happen again, and I sure didn't want it to happen for a third time, so I let the user know. Your last part talks about me not putting effort in my nominations and reviews. Well, I'm not the only editor who struggles to finish reviews, and I'll admit that sometimes I bite off a little more than I can chew. I did finish one of those reviews though. I would also state that I've made over 30 reviews, and out of those 30, I failed to complete maybe six of them. World War I was a drive-by nom, I'll admit, didn't realize that at the time, but that's the only case where I've unwittingly made a drive-by nom, so...We reach the end of your comment, and regarding your remarks about the FAC situation, well all I can say is that I needed insurance before I made another nomination, as the last two noms failed for sourcing issues. I was not confident about my scanning of the article's sourcing, so I needed a source review to see if the sourcing issues were still evident. I did scan a large portion of the article's sourcing but I just needed that extra insurance. Yep, that should be it. ] (]) 07:10, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| (the sections below the one referenced to are also of use). The shows that Suresh has made edits, logged in and out, continuously reverting corrections of the issues on the article -- my particular vice is the look and feel of his edits. his request on my talk page to stop me editing the page. Any help, action or advice would be appreciated. Thanks, ] <small>(]/])</small> 13:05, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::The fennec fox edits are ''absolutey'' ]. {{tqq|Is this all about the message I left on your friend's talk page? You don't do much reviewing and judging by this review you also don't seem to be an experienced reviewer. This review has been unfair and your judgment on multiple aspects are off by a long shot}} is ]. Also {{tqq|I decided to help them close the nomination as that was their intention, but they didn't seem to know how to follow through with that.}} - you ''do not'' close your own GANs. If you start it, you do not close it. Full stop. {{tqq|The Narwhal talk page link is not a personal attack or a insult}} - no, sorry, it is indeed a ]. ] is one of the ], it is ''not'' optional and you seem to spend a lot of time tap-dancing on or over the line of it. I suggest you reconsider your approach in many areas to maintain a civil, collaborative environment. - ] <sub>]</sub> 08:10, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Seems to be mostly a good faith effort, with a lot of cultural misunderstanding (both internationally and regarding WP culture). It's good that they're archiving these photographs. More power to them. But I think there's a bit of a difference in expectation regarding online clutter. In my experience Indian sites do tend toward this kind of uber clutter as a norm, where western sites are more minimalistic. Maybe could use an RfC or something similar to bring third parties to bear? Probably good to explain ]. ] (]) 15:02, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{Re|The Bushranger}} I made that comment based on a comment they made . I also took into consideration the fact that they reviewed my GAN as their ''very first review'' less than 24 hours (if I'm not mistaken) after nomination. And so I'd say that's my evidence for the comment. I apologize if this is not enough. Regarding the Narwhal bit, I didn't intend to make the comment a personal aattack. I intended to make it clear to the IP that I didn't want them to annoy me with those pings. I could have handled the situation better, I agree. But what I found annoying was that they attacked me on the basis of a YouTube video that discusses how I wrongfully reverted the creator's edit, only to later realize my mistake, rectifying it accordingly. Nevertheless, I will definitely take your words above into consideration. ] (]) 09:01, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Also I'm not entirely sure I agree with ] in assuming ] and discouraging editing at all. Seems a little ]. Being an expert in a field doesn't automatically imply a necessary COI. ] (]) 15:06, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm happy to be corrected if my reading of the situation is wrong. --] (]) 15:36, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::I'm reminded of the extended issue last year with ] and CJHanley (ANI is buried somewhere here), where a lot of it boiled down to funneling behavior productively. But, just my two cents. I'm nobody important. ] (]) 15:41, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::You're as important as anyone on here. :) I'll remove my comments from the user's talk page. --] (]) 15:47, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::If standard dispute resolution processes have not yet been attempted, I would suggest ] process on the article talk page, with pre-formatted sections on the talk page when you start the RFC one for previously-involved and another for previously-uninvolved-editors, to gain some further insight into the article and how to hopefully constructively move forward with additional outside input. — ''']''' (]) 15:54, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::: Uh, maybe not so good faith, there seems to be IP edits that are editing only K.C Pant or LLa Pant and KC Pant that pretty much revert back to the version Sureshpandey put in, I saw at least 3 of them, all trace back to New Delhi, all edit no where else except K.C Pant and/or Lla Pant , , . The shows more I.P reverts, interestingly enough, Sureshpandy's behavior is to post as sureshpandy, but most of the time, revert with an I.P, some of the edit summaries say they're reverting someone and they always revert back to sureshpandy's version. Since there's no hardcore evidence this individual is socking deliberately, I'd recommend semi-protection due to edit warring on this article for a bit. ] 15:56, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::] would be a good place to investigate that type of sockpuppet behavior pattern further by additional eyes. — ''']''' (]) 16:16, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Comment''' - I am more familiar with the user's behaviour at ], where he has also added image clutter that swamps the page . Any attempt to delete the images meets with a form response on other users' talk pages, and the user reinstates all of them immediately. This is an ] that cares nothing about Misplaced Pages consensual editing. Some form of warning to the user to seek consensus would be useful. -- ] (]) 16:22, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *:Indeed, he is trying to be contributive, but for the sole purpose of the Pant family articles. This leaves room for some dogged-ness over the content, which could make agreement difficult, but there is also the fault on my behalf for neglecting paths which are more constructive than continuously reverting, and perhaps leaving an explanation in the edit summary, where it is necessary. If this continues to occur beyond this, I will be clearer about the issues and the consequences of ignoring my concerns. Thanks, ] <small>(]/])</small> 17:18, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Assuming that the photographs he's uploaded are legit and usable, may be a fair compromise to put one of those mini galleries at the bottom of the pages. No idea what they're actually called. ] (]) 19:06, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :They are just called galleries (using the <code><nowiki><gallery></gallery></nowiki></code> markup), but Wikimedia Commons itself serves the purpose of a gallery. There is an additional issue of copyright here -- have images like ] really been published under CC-BY-SA 4.0? Or did one just 'tick all the needed boxes'? ] <small>(]/])</small> 19:18, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Is there an unknown category? Honest question. My few WM uploads have been pretty cut and dry. What happens when I get my grandma's old pics and upload them? ] (]) 01:52, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::There is the opportunity to place them in a new category, so K. C. Pant or my grandma's old pictures for example. Then, you can link to these images at the bottom of the Misplaced Pages page (have you seen this before? I don't know the template name to do this though). ] <small>(]/])</small> 05:57, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| == KirillMarasin promoting medical treatments and "conversion therapy" == | |||
| 06:42, 1 April 2016 (UTC)] (])== ]-endless disruptive edit war against the consensus: == | |||
| {{user|KirillMarasin}} | |||
| It is true for every page he is editing from his last appearance on wikipedia under this name . Below only several examples: | |||
| Please pay your special attention on his meaningless revert argumentation. | |||
| I think we have two related problems with KirillMarasin. First up, he promotes and seeks to legitimise the pseudo-medical practice of "]" (, , Yes, that really is a medical claim being sourced to Reddit!) and secondly he adds medical claims to other articles which are either unreferenced or which are improperly referenced to sites selling supplements (, , and ). Attempts by multiple editors to warn him have been unavailing and I read as both a personal attack and a highly offensive suggestion that I practice "conversion therapy" on myself. Beyond that, this is a clear and sustained case of ] and ]. --] (]) 02:51, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ] | |||
| :Even if my edits are not high-quality, the article on conversion therapy has a lot of gaslighting, saying time and time again there are no treatments, when the opposite is true. ] (]) 09:54, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : | |||
| ::Not according to science baaed RS which is all that matters from Misplaced Pages's PoV ] (]) 10:02, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : | |||
| :::What is RS? ] (]) 12:47, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : | |||
| ::::Good question! You were supposed to know that in order to edit Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 12:57, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : | |||
| ::Not only are your edits not of high-quality, at least two of your sources are garbage, and you're edit warring at that article as well. You need to step away from that article.]] 10:30, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : | |||
| ::Why would you even consider 4Chan to be a legitimate source for anything, let alone a science/medicine-based topic? That, in of itself, is a major issue. ] (]) 11:57, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : | |||
| :Just looking at the three ] edits mentioned by DanielRigal, makes a medical claim without citing any sources at all and cites reddit and 4chan for medical claims. Finally, cites a paper in the Journal of Neurosurgery for the claim that {{tq|some methods of conversion therapy were working}}. The paper in question in fact says that {{tq|while Heath claimed that the patient had a full recovery and engaged exclusively in heterosexual activities, other sources argued that the patient continued to have homosexual relationships}}. Any of these diffs on their own would be totally unacceptable. {{pb}}Additionally, a glance at ] shows that KirillMarasin not only added these claims once, but reinstated them after their removal was adequately explained. e.g. they add the "some methods of conversion therapy were working" claim, the addition is reverted with the edit summary explaining that the source does not support the addition, KirillMarasin reinserts the text with the edit summary {{tq|It doesn't need deleting, I'll try to edit it to better reflect the article.}} When somebody reverts an edit because it contradicts the cited source, you need to fix that error {{em|before}} reinstating it. ] (]) 10:56, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : | |||
| * Would a ] on ] prevent further inappropriate editing? Note this is a ''question'', I'm not familiar with ] and it may very well not have any bearing or may be the wrong approach here. --] (]) 11:45, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : | |||
| *:I think there's a CIR issue as well. The slipping of sources from 4chan into a contentious topic seems either like overt trolling or a serious lack of understanding of sources.] (]) 11:55, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : | |||
| *::I'd still like to ], even though I'm beginning to have my doubts. I think this is a CIR issue first and foremost, with a mixture of POV-pushing and lack of understanding of ], ] and ]. Since they are here, and reading this page, and haven't edited since they started following this conversation, I think {{re|KirillMarasin}} should read those policies first, before they attempt to edit again. If they continue with their current editing pattern, though, a ] would be entirely appropriate. — ] (]) 12:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : | |||
| *:Not all of the problem edits have been ]; the ones listed by the OP aa diffs 5 through 8 are on sexual health matters not under that GENSEX guideline. A more general medical topic ban, widely construed, may be more appropriate. -- ] (]) 14:18, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : | |||
| {{user|KirillMarasin}} has been here for more than a decade. It's hard to believe that suddenly, he doesn't know that 4Chan isn't a usable source - and in a topic like this, too. Signs are pointing to NOTHERE. ] (]) 14:13, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : | |||
| : | |||
| == History of disruptive COI editing == | |||
| ] | |||
| :] exposed sockpuppetry by his anonimous IP. You can see his self exposure | |||
| :] | |||
| :] | |||
| ] | |||
| : exposed sockpuppetry as above under the same IP | |||
| : | |||
| : | |||
| : | |||
| I didn't wanted to go through this, but I'm done being patient. There appears to be a long history of disruptive COI editing by {{u|Armandogoa}} on his father's article ]. He usually edits this page after every few months or so, and seems to add unreferenced content as per his latest edit done on the page here . I had many of his edits reverted myself. | |||
| I also did place a COI warning on his talk page over a year ago . But he seems to not understand it this way. His father is an active politician, and considering our ] policies, I think this editor should be blocked to prevent any other controversial or peacock material added in the future. ]<sup>2003</sup>(]) 07:54, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| The user constantly distorts RS he cites or reverts without meaningful argumentation.Please help ] (]) 18:32, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| == Disruptive ] == | |||
| :: ] might shed some more light on this issue. It looks to be a long term issue ! ] 18:56, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yes please look at this edit in particular these meat-puppets gang up on anyone who touch their turf . Also pay very close attention to the presented on this page . ]. There are also several ANI cases to read through to catch up. Неполканов is an archetypal boy who cries wolf. ] (]) 04:58, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::First claim that , now you're claiming that a post where Неполканов lists the members of a consensus is him confessing to meat puppetry? That's just asinine, and yet another instance where you clearly are not assuming good faith. Please, show all the times where I've come to Неполканов's defense before you came in with your disruptive editing. If you can't provide such evidence, ]. ] (]) 05:46, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :YuHuw has a recurring problem where he ignores any consensus that he doesn't agree with, handles points raised for that consensus by either ignoring it, pretending he has already addressed it, changing the subject, or ] bad-faith motives ]. This can be readily seen on my talk page and at ]. ] (]) 05:46, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Ian, I have apologized for inadvertently upsetting your religious conviction s so many times I am losing count. It was the week of Purim vacation and I was a little high spirited. I am really embarrassed and sorry about it. Everyone makes mistakes. There is no need to bare a grudge on the matter. You have in all innocence taken the wrong side on this matter. I am indeed the one who encourages ] discussion to reach consensus (extensively) just as you recommend, while the meat-puppets who ] each other blatantly () have sadly duped you are the ones who don't if you could only get past your anger at my comment on Christian missionary activity then you might be able to see that more clearly. I sincerely wish you all the best Ian. Take care. ] (]) 06:14, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| P.S. Ian, you have not read carefully the edit he made which exposes him but if you follow the instructions posted you will discover as clear as day. I will post them again for you here. Best regards. ] (]) 06:20, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| P.P.S. concerning ] every time one of them calls me Kaz it is a Personal attack for the resons specified in the history of their case against me. You can see the results of that personal attack in the history of my talk page. Three months of asking them to stop dozens and dozens of times when we all know what that means is why the wavering of ] in my attitude is justified. Nevertheless, I am still cordial and welcome input which is content based as long as there are no personal attacks like calling me stupid. ] (]) 06:31, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ] has , to stop changing content without a reliable source but continues to do so ignoring and being non-responsive to warnings. Sumeshmeo got 3 same warnings in 2023. I do not think that Sumeshmeo is here to improve Misplaced Pages pages. ] (]) 10:55, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == More WP:BATTLEGROUND from Jytdog at ] == | |||
| * In future, it helps if you provide diffs when making a report so people are better able to assess it. Having looked at Sumesheo's contribs, is a recent egregious example where not only do they change the text of the article, they also change the title of the source cited so it appears to support that claim (and break the url in the process). In fact as far as I can tell, every single edit they have made so far this month is to increase the claimed gross takings of a film, without ever providing a source or explanation, in most cases explicitly contradicting the existing cited source. ] (]) 11:49, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Uncivil behavior == | |||
| A month ago I was blissfully unaware of {{u|Jytdog}}. Then he caused a car crash at the ] article, which gave rise to two deeply unfavourable media reports on Misplaced Pages's practices and ]. Today he's suggesting I need to get a . | |||
| {{ping|Jasper_Deng}} has been continually bludgeoning a conversation about a page rename, casting unsupported aspersions, acting uncivilly, and newcomers (me). | |||
| Both of these show just the same ] mentality, with editors and their work dismissed as ]. | |||
| '''Teahouse''' | |||
| I noticed this today at ]. As those with long memories will know, there is little love lost between {{u|Wtshymanski}} and myself, but I've always recognised that he knew his subject - a courtesy clearly not being extended by Jytdog here. | |||
| During a lively discussion about a , it occurred to me that I might be able to improve this encyclopedia by starting a conversations that could '''POTENTIALLY''' lead to future guidance or policy regarding how to name natural disaster articles. | |||
| As is typical (and to some degree commendable) this began by Jytdog removing sources that he took issue with for being unreliable. The trouble is that he removed a whole section to do so, on the far-from-controversial claim that there are toxicity hazards to working with ]. He proceeded to 4RR edit war to remove this. Much better editing would have been (if he dislikes these sources so much) to have found some other sources, from the ''vast'' numbers that are out there on this uncontroversial and widely described topic. | |||
| They followed me to the teahouse and: | |||
| The main problem though is less ''what'' he did and more ''how'' he goes about it. Just take a look at the ], ] and ] (14 posts tonight!). See also ]. This battlegrounding is just not acceptable here - other editors, even myself, just do not deserve this bile from Jytdog. This is far from a new problem either, ANIs ''passim''. ] (]) 21:11, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *Bludgeoned me | |||
| :Andy is angry at me and I hear that but he is so angry he is not thinking straight. | |||
| *casted aspersions {{tq| it is frowned upon to post about an ongoing decision making discussion elsewhere (unless it is to raise serious misconduct concerns) as it could be considered WP:CANVASSING, particularly when the incipient consensus is leaning against your position}} You'll note that my post in the teahouse was asking how to start a conversation about potential future policy improvements, not at all about the ongoing conversation. And even if it were, the practice is quite common on noticeboards, why would it be any different in the teahouse such that it would be WP:CANVASSING? | |||
| In the process they said {{tq|Don't overthink this}} to me. | |||
| :I removed '''one sentence''' (not a "whole section) from the lead that became a subject of dispute - is the relevant diff where it is being restored by Wtshymansk. I know I am too harsh sometimes. What is completely unacceptable is Andy's behavior here. His comments and are inappropriate for an article Talk page. He is clearly more focused on me than on the actual sources and contents there, not dealing at all with the actual problems I raised on the Talk page. | |||
| To which I replied {{tq|Please do not patronize me by suggesting I am overthinking this, and please don't WP:BLUDGEON me by responding to every comment I've made to someone else regarding this.}} | |||
| :As he acknowledges he was attracted to the article via the Talk page of Wtshymansk where I had left an ] a 3RR notice, which appears to be on his watchlist as he has ; as shortly after I left that comment he came to the article, which '''''', and and then shortly after that responded to me at W's Talk page . That is blatant HOUNDING and edit warring too, as there was already a section open at the Talk page for discussion. | |||
| *They then me by again saying in part {{tq|I'm afraid you are overthinking it}} | |||
| :As I at W's talk page, I warned him again on his talk page not to turn Misplaced Pages into a ] and not ]. It is good that he opened this ANI instead of continuing to do so. | |||
| * and made continued, unsupported, exaggerated claims of misconduct against me {{tq|Don't cast the WP:ASPERSION of "willful disrespect".}} | |||
| '''Talk page''' | |||
| :About the "moron diploma" thing, as I noted on his talk page his HOUNDING is frustrating me, and yes I let myself write something snarky. What I ''had'' written was if he accepts the one source from ScribD he should accept the other, but then I removed that (I disowned it - because it is clearly inflammatory and there is no point in going there) and my final comment was . I removed it. His inappropriate comments still stand. | |||
| Back on the talk page, they: | |||
| :And about the "two deeply unfavourable media reports" - you can read those yourselves. It is Andy's take that they are "deeply unfavourable". I think I represented WP pretty well in the 2nd one where i had a chance to speak. | |||
| * by replying to my vote | |||
| * | |||
| *Bludgeoned another editor as well | |||
| *Collapsed their bludgeoning with a close note that they agree (with themself?) that their comments were {{tq|more than necessary after taking a second look}} | |||
| Just recently I noticed they | |||
| :Going forward I hope to have as little interaction with Andy Dingley as possible: I don't much like the way he evaluates sources nor the way he operates, screwing up articles pursuing me and distorting things in this ANI filing (bringing sources to RSN is "battleground" behavior? no way. It ''is'' true that his position is getting little support there - that happens sometimes). In any case I will expect the same from him, however this ANI comes out. I very much hope that his pursuit of me does not become a recurrent issue. I will not, and have not, pursued him. | |||
| '''So I warned them to stop bludgeoning on their talk page''' | |||
| : I am not going to post further here and will accept whatever the community says. Again, I acknowledge I can be harsh but for Andy to follow me to an article and blindly revert, adding back crappy, OFFTOPIC content harms the encyclopedia and he should get dinged for that. ] (]) 21:35, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :: Does look like "crappy, OFFTOPIC content" to anyone else? ] (]) 22:08, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::That is '''not''' the dif under dispute. Again you misrepresent things. Bah. is where you added back in the crappy, OFFTOPIC content. and i should add crappy-because-badly sourced, and crappy-because-carrying-out-an-OFFTOPIC-dispute-''in-the-citations'' content. Even so, in the dif you bring, you show that you added better sources (keeping the crappy ones, ack) but you drill yet deeper into the question being fought out in the citations of the original crappy content. This article is about a disease, and whether or not Beryllium was used in lighting fixtures has nothing ''at all'' to do with the topic. It is not clear to me that you are even aware what the topic is, so focused on your anger at me, are you. said yoda. ] (]) 22:42, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| In the edit note, they: | |||
| *'''Comment''' Possible ] in response to {{U|Jytdog}}'s initial action(s), boomerang for the filer of this report as frivolous and ] as well as his own ] that escalated things needlessly. -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">]</span> ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">] ]</span> 22:16, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :: Well ] ] Wikelvi, fancy meeting you here! ] (]) 22:50, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *Again tried to intimidate me because of their status as an experienced editor {{tq|As someone who is still rather inexperienced you should not be attempting to warn experienced editors like me.}} | |||
| :Erm ... the RepRap article has had some very obvious problems, and Jytdog pointed them out. Whether you think the Motherboard piece was a good thing or a bad thing very much depends on your approach to content quality. I thought Jytdog did a very good job describing the problems Misplaced Pages articles like that often suffer from. (See ].) ] <small><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>]</small> 04:12, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *Cast aspersions and threatened me with a block {{tq|Your comment here is grossly uncivil and if you ever comment like this again you will be the one considered for a block.}} | |||
| == Problematic long-term IP editor == | |||
| : | |||
| {{IPVandal|50.184.105.58}} | |||
| *Casting aspersions and threatening me with a block again {{tq| | |||
| This user performs lots of mildly constructive edits, frequently peppered with unsourced and incorrect information. Has received many warnings on their talk page, but there has been no response or change in behavior. Examples of bad edits from just the last week or so: A block of at least 48 hours or so might help send the message. ] (]) 04:06, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Posting that WP:SHOUTING on my talk page is grossly uncivil and unwarranted and will get you blocked the next time you do that.}} | |||
| *And again attempted to intimidate me because of their status as an experienced editor {{tq|But you are in absolutely no position to attempt to enjoin me from further participation in that process. You do not understand the policies and guidelines you're trying to warn me about; don't pretend that you do (especially with respect to WP:OWN).}} | |||
| *And again, cast more unsupported aspersions in an uncivil manner {{tq|Coming to my talk page unprompted and without the other user's involvement is crossing the line to you harassing me. Cut it out.}} | |||
| This has been an upsetting experience for me. Perhaps I am too sensitive to edit on wikipedia.] (]) 12:19, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Beautifulpeoplelikeyou == | |||
| {{user|Beautifulpeoplelikeyou }} | |||
| :After leaving making this post, I noticed @] also left a comment ''about'' me, casting even more aspersions in a thread I started on @]'s talk page that had absolutely nothing to do with @]: | |||
| Topic-banned SPA. Persistent blatant incivility. IMO ] must be the last straw. ] ] (]) 04:10, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :{{tq|This user needs mentorship as they are flying too close to the sun. The comment I just removed from my talk page and the one I left them at User talk:Delectopierre#Stop suggests that I am not the most effective one to convey that to them. My participation in the RM isn't that unusual and I consider their comments highly condescending and, now, aggressive to the point that I will want to see them blocked if they do it again.}} ] (]) 12:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :The only edit that isn't immediately obvious ] is , and has me wondering about that. , but that's before the topic ban. and are absolutely unacceptable, and I'm leaving them a message about that. | |||
| ::Both users are right: Jasper Deng when they say, "I am not the most effective one to convey that to them", and Delectopierre when saying, "Perhaps I am too sensitive". ] (]) 14:01, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :The incivility started after the topic ban, and although related, is technically a different problem. I do agree that they're ] and will be indefinitely blocked shortly, but I'm inclined to give another foot of ] so as to leave no excuse. | |||
| :My impression, based on this brouhaha: you are easily offended, but at the same time keen to tell off others. Bad combination. While Jasper Deng dislikes being harrangued on his talk page, but at the same time tacks unrelated complaints about you onto conversations not involving him. Bad combination. From the unassailable heights of my own moral perfection, I suggest you both simmer down and get back to editing. --<span style="font-family:Courier">]</span> <small>(] · ])</small> 14:07, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :EDIT: I see that some incivility has come up before, but they're now at the final warning for that and for the topic ban. If they cross the line on either and I'm on, I'll block. ] (]) 04:38, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::No need to waste more rope... ] ] <small>Please {{]}}</small> 04:45, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| == Review of an article deletion == | |||
| :::Meh, I don't agree. It's been about a week since the TB was enacted, and all that I see in this editor's contribs is some attempts to appeal or fight back against or figure out the scope of the topic ban. I don't think we should consider that as necessarily problematic. I ''do'' agree that this editor is probably NOTHERE, but I generally disapprove of the idea of penalizing editors for requesting review of administrative decisions except where there's been a pattern of abusive or vexatious requests (and even then I'm not crazy about the idea). If Beautifulpeoplelikeyou keeps mucking about in ''content'' areas connected with the topic ban then absolutely lower the boom. But until that happens—and I think the ] edit isn't obvious enough to count—we should give another foot or so of rope. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 05:00, 1 April 2016 (UTC) | |||
| {{archive top|result=The correct venue for this is ]. ] 14:27, 11 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| Hello, I will like to request a review on the deletion of the article on Prisca Abah ] (]) 14:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{ab}} | |||
Latest revision as of 14:27, 11 January 2025
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Cross-wiki harassment and transphobia from User:DarwIn
User:DarwIn, a known transphobic editor from pt.wiki, is harassing me here after his actions led me to leave that wiki permanently. He has also harassed me on Wikimedia Commons. I don't know what to do anymore. I just want to edit about transgender topics in peace. This is severely impacting my mental health. Skyshiftertalk 13:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You don't seem to have notified the other editor. This is mandatory and this section may be closed if you fail to do so. Use {{subst:ANI-notice}}~~~~ on that user's talk page. Additionally, you don't seem to have provided specific diffs demonstrating harassment. Please do so. --Yamla (talk) 13:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- On pt.wiki, DarwIn proposed the deletion of articles I created about transgender topics (Thamirys Nunes and Minha Criança Trans), using transphobic arguments, including misgendering and questioning the validity of transgender children. After translating these articles to en.wiki, he is targeting the DYK nomination, again focusing on his personal transphobic beliefs - as it shows, he doesn't even know how DYK works. He insisted multiple times trying to include his transphobic comment on that page and has just edited it again. On Commons, for extra context, DarwIn unilaterally deleted images related to these articles, despite being clearly involved in the dispute.
- Again, I just want to collaborate with trans topics in peace. Skyshiftertalk 13:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- We can't help you with pt.wikipedia.org or with commons, only with en.wikipedia.org. Please provide specific diffs for en.wikipedia.org. --Yamla (talk) 13:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Yes. However, context is important. This is harassment that began on pt.wiki, has spread to Commons, and is now here. The history has been provided, but, sure, I can provide the diffs instead. He has unilaterally edited the DYK page and put a "disagree", despite this being not how DYK works. This is because he really doesn't know, as he only sporadically edits here and only came back to harass me. His comment is explicitly transphobic and doesn't focus on the article itself at all. After his comment was reverted by me, he insisted saying that I shouldn't call it transphobia, despite it being transphobia. After being reverted again, he reincluded the comment. I asked him to stop harassing me, but he has edited the page again.
- I just don't want to be targeted by that editor here. I've left pt.wiki in great part for that reason. I just want to edit about transgender topics in peace here. Skyshiftertalk 13:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- We can't help you with pt.wikipedia.org or with commons, only with en.wikipedia.org. Please provide specific diffs for en.wikipedia.org. --Yamla (talk) 13:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Looks like yet another cross-wiki troll by this user. Already blocked at the Portuguese Wikipédia and Wikimedia Commons, the account is now promoting their POV here, including spreading lies, hideous slurs and baseless accusations against me like "known transphobic", after two of their creations were taken to community evaluation at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for lacking notability. The user is also a known sockpuppeter, with an open case for sockpuppetry at the Portuguese Wikipédia. In any case, I'm not interested in pursuing this case in yet another project apart from the strictly needed, so do as you please. Darwin 13:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I have been blocked on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for contesting that transphobia was called "valid criticism" on ANI and on Commons for literally nothing. Skyshiftertalk 13:28, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Questioning a women that declared her 4 year old son as trangender after he refused to play with cars and Marvel puppets and preferred what his mother calls "girl stuff" doesn't fit in any reasonable definition of transphobia, a word which you are well known for abusing whenever anyone criticizes you at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages and elsewhere. In any case, I don't think this is the place for this discussion, so this will be my last direct answer to you you'll see in this board. Darwin 13:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- And here's explicit transphobia. It's her daughter, no matter how much you hate the idea of trans children existing. The story you've told is also completely distorted. Skyshiftertalk 13:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Questioning a women that declared her 4 year old son as trangender after he refused to play with cars and Marvel puppets and preferred what his mother calls "girl stuff" doesn't fit in any reasonable definition of transphobia, a word which you are well known for abusing whenever anyone criticizes you at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages and elsewhere. In any case, I don't think this is the place for this discussion, so this will be my last direct answer to you you'll see in this board. Darwin 13:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I have been blocked on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for contesting that transphobia was called "valid criticism" on ANI and on Commons for literally nothing. Skyshiftertalk 13:28, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Comment I simply don't want this editor targeting me with transphobic stuff here after he target me on pt.wiki (and left it permanently in great part for that reason) and Commons. I am considering taking medication because of these events. Skyshiftertalk 13:45, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Comment I would suggest Darwin review MOS:GENDERID. If the child uses she/her pronouns we should not be referring to her with he/him pronouns. Simonm223 (talk) 15:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 I would suggest you to recall we ate talking about a 4 year child whose social gender was chosen by their mother after the child refused to play with what she calls "boy toys", such as toy cars and Marvel puppets. If that's not enough that this kind of gender prejudice was already abhorrent and condemned even in the generation of my babyboomer parents, one of the first things we teached as LGBT activists in the 1990s was that our parents don't own us nor our sexuality or our gender. So please let's refrain from doing that kind of suggestions when what is in question is the gender identity of a 4 year old attributed by their mother. Ok? Darwin 15:29, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn, the bottom line is that you don't get to question that. As a complete stranger to that child you have no right to do so, plus this is not the place to even enter into that discussion. How does complete strangers on the internet talking about a child's gender do them any good? This isn't the place anyway so please just follow guidelines, which have been put in place for a good reason. Blue Sonnet (talk) 15:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I questioned the mother, not the child. I've no idea why we are discussing this here, anyway. Darwin 15:42, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- We're here because this "questioning" appears to be bleeding into transphobic harassment. I would support an indef based on edits like this Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I questioned the mother, not the child. I've no idea why we are discussing this here, anyway. Darwin 15:42, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn, the bottom line is that you don't get to question that. As a complete stranger to that child you have no right to do so, plus this is not the place to even enter into that discussion. How does complete strangers on the internet talking about a child's gender do them any good? This isn't the place anyway so please just follow guidelines, which have been put in place for a good reason. Blue Sonnet (talk) 15:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- The story told above is completely distorted to fit the transphobic's narrative. Simon223, if you want to get the full story, read Thamirys Nunes' page or read its sources (with the help of a translator if needed). Skyshiftertalk 15:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would like to suggest we follow MOS regardless of people's personal opinion of early childhood gender expression. Simonm223 (talk) 15:38, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Rephrase that as mothers opinions on their 4 year old baby gender expression. Darwin 15:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Darwin - I suggest you drop whatever agenda you have, treat other editors with respect, and comply with our MOS (including MOS:GENDERID) - otherwise you will be blocked. GiantSnowman 15:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so. Darwin 16:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Just so everyone knows, the facts are being quite distorted here. It wasn't really an imposition — her daughter, did not want to play with "boy toys", even when being forced by her mom. That's why the mom said she plays with "girl toys" and everything else. The references on said articles weren't thoroughly read, apparently by everybody here.
- Adding to this too: DarwIn, in some edits to the article in the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, added "quotes" on the word trans and some other parts of the articly, as if was his duty to judge if the girl is trans or not. Anyways, I think what happened in ptwiki stays there.
- And I want to make clear that I'm only stating the things that happened so everyone knows. I do not support blocking him. Eduardo G. 16:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so. Darwin 16:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Four year olds are generally not considered babies. You really need to drop this - and probably to avoid editing in the WP:GENSEX area.Simonm223 (talk) 16:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would suggest a topic ban is imposed. GiantSnowman 16:09, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would support a topic ban from WP:GENSEX. Simonm223 (talk) 16:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Given that much of what they've been saying is about living people I think we would need to expand this to at least cover all other BLPs until such a time as they have demonstrated that they actually understand that the BLP policy applies to non-article spaces on wiki as well as articles. Overall this seems more like NOTHERE than something which a topic ban can remedy. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Topic ban from GENSEX and BLP, broadly construed, is fine for me. GiantSnowman 16:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I do understand this Misplaced Pages rules on BLP. Isn't that not enough for you? Darwin 16:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Given your comments here and at DYK, you clearly do not. GiantSnowman 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You seem to have missed the part when I very clearly stated there that I retired myself from that DYN debate. Darwin 16:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Given your comments here and at DYK, you clearly do not. GiantSnowman 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Given that much of what they've been saying is about living people I think we would need to expand this to at least cover all other BLPs until such a time as they have demonstrated that they actually understand that the BLP policy applies to non-article spaces on wiki as well as articles. Overall this seems more like NOTHERE than something which a topic ban can remedy. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @GiantSnowman nice try, but I don't edit on that topic, anyway. Let's calm down and enjoy the Christmas season. Darwin 16:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- This is the opposite of the attitude you need to adopt if you want to remain an editor in good standing. Remeber if you didn't edit on that topic we wouldn't be having this discussion, we're here because of edits you made in that topic area. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Then get your facts right, as I never edited any biography on that topic here, at least that I can recall. Darwin 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You fundementally misunderstand the scope of WP:BLP and the concept of topic area as well. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Look, I'm at a family gathering and I really have nor time nor patience for this kind of endless debates, specially on culture wars topics. I've already retired from DYN yesterday but you seem to insist on pursuing this kind of Salem witch hunting here, but really, I'll not be anymore part of that. Roger and over, happy new year. Darwin 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think you may be getting different editors confused, I was not a participant at DYN. I did not pursue you to here. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- it was a collective you. Darwin 16:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- The collective you did not pursue you here either. Only the OP appears to cross over. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- it was a collective you. Darwin 16:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think you may be getting different editors confused, I was not a participant at DYN. I did not pursue you to here. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Look, I'm at a family gathering and I really have nor time nor patience for this kind of endless debates, specially on culture wars topics. I've already retired from DYN yesterday but you seem to insist on pursuing this kind of Salem witch hunting here, but really, I'll not be anymore part of that. Roger and over, happy new year. Darwin 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You fundementally misunderstand the scope of WP:BLP and the concept of topic area as well. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Then get your facts right, as I never edited any biography on that topic here, at least that I can recall. Darwin 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- This is the opposite of the attitude you need to adopt if you want to remain an editor in good standing. Remeber if you didn't edit on that topic we wouldn't be having this discussion, we're here because of edits you made in that topic area. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would support a topic ban from WP:GENSEX. Simonm223 (talk) 16:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I noticed this yesterday but intentionally didn't mention it since I felt there had already been enough nonsense. But since DarwIn is still defending their offensive comments below, I'd note that the child was 4 years old in 2019. It's now 2024 and they've evidentally seen a medical professional. If at any time they express a desire for a different gender identity we will of course respect that whatever her mother says; but at this time BLP full supports respecting a 8-9 year old and not treating her as a baby. Nil Einne (talk) 22:49, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- None of this is relevant. We follow sources and MOS:GENDERID. There is obviously no Misplaced Pages position on when someone is or is not a "baby" and should have their self-identification reproduced in their biography. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 12:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would suggest a topic ban is imposed. GiantSnowman 16:09, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Darwin - I suggest you drop whatever agenda you have, treat other editors with respect, and comply with our MOS (including MOS:GENDERID) - otherwise you will be blocked. GiantSnowman 15:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Rephrase that as mothers opinions on their 4 year old baby gender expression. Darwin 15:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would like to suggest we follow MOS regardless of people's personal opinion of early childhood gender expression. Simonm223 (talk) 15:38, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 I would suggest you to recall we ate talking about a 4 year child whose social gender was chosen by their mother after the child refused to play with what she calls "boy toys", such as toy cars and Marvel puppets. If that's not enough that this kind of gender prejudice was already abhorrent and condemned even in the generation of my babyboomer parents, one of the first things we teached as LGBT activists in the 1990s was that our parents don't own us nor our sexuality or our gender. So please let's refrain from doing that kind of suggestions when what is in question is the gender identity of a 4 year old attributed by their mother. Ok? Darwin 15:29, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Comment I would suggest Darwin review MOS:GENDERID. If the child uses she/her pronouns we should not be referring to her with he/him pronouns. Simonm223 (talk) 15:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- They cannot be trusted. Above they said "I'm retiring myself from this topic" and yet has continued to post. GiantSnowman 16:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I've continued to post where? Darwin 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I've already walked away from it yesterday, why you're insisting on that lie? Darwin 16:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You are continuing to post here, ergo you have not "walked away" from it, have you? GiantSnowman 16:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn The issue here is not whether you are right or wrong. The issue here is that you are violating a community guideline. That's it. Either you stop or you will end up getting blocked. I have my own disagreements with that guideline, and as a consequence I simply stay far away from those articles or discussions. You should too. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- How can I get out of this endless cycle, if each time you ask me to stop and I say I already stopped yesterday, you came back chastising me for having answered again? That's not fair. Darwin 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Simply post a note at the bottom of the discussion stating that given your respectful disagreement with parts of MOS:GENDERID that you will voluntarily avoid any articles or discussions where that is, or may become, an issue. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Which discussion are you talking about? Now I'm confused. Can't you be more clear? Darwin 16:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn This one. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Ad Orientem I've already done it, but you keep writing below it, so it's not in the bottom anymore. Darwin 17:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn Easiest way to defuse this is to post a bolded and outdented statement at the very bottom of the this discussion stating you understand MOSGENDERID and will avoid pages or discussions where it may become an issue, and that you will avoid as far as possible, interacting with Skyshifter. If there are other issues here, I have no comment on those. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, here it goes again: "if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so" Darwin 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- That is not an appropriate statement, it has your bias/agenda throughout it. Very concerning. GiantSnowman 18:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, here it goes again: "if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so" Darwin 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn Easiest way to defuse this is to post a bolded and outdented statement at the very bottom of the this discussion stating you understand MOSGENDERID and will avoid pages or discussions where it may become an issue, and that you will avoid as far as possible, interacting with Skyshifter. If there are other issues here, I have no comment on those. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Ad Orientem I've already done it, but you keep writing below it, so it's not in the bottom anymore. Darwin 17:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn This one. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Which discussion are you talking about? Now I'm confused. Can't you be more clear? Darwin 16:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Simply post a note at the bottom of the discussion stating that given your respectful disagreement with parts of MOS:GENDERID that you will voluntarily avoid any articles or discussions where that is, or may become, an issue. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- How can I get out of this endless cycle, if each time you ask me to stop and I say I already stopped yesterday, you came back chastising me for having answered again? That's not fair. Darwin 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn The issue here is not whether you are right or wrong. The issue here is that you are violating a community guideline. That's it. Either you stop or you will end up getting blocked. I have my own disagreements with that guideline, and as a consequence I simply stay far away from those articles or discussions. You should too. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You are continuing to post here, ergo you have not "walked away" from it, have you? GiantSnowman 16:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Heres the main point I can see RE "Cross-wiki harassment." If DarwIn claims they do not regularly edit this topic space and had not previously participated in DYK discussions how did they come to find themselves there just in time to oppose the contribution of an editor they had extensive negative interactions with on another wiki? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- that's old stuff, I already posted a note there retiring from that space yesterday. I'm really puzzled on what all this fuss is about. Darwin 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- This isn't about the transphobia, this is about the harassment (they are seperate by apparently related claims). So how did you find yourself commenting on that DYK? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I expressed my disagreement with that note, justifying with my opinion, and there's not even any misgendering issue there, AFAIK. Not sure if expressing that opinion here is forbidden or not, but in any case I've posted a note retiring from it already yesterday, so I've no idea what more do you want. Darwin 16:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- And how did you become aware that there was something to disagree with? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- precisely because we are currently in the process of evaluating the notability of that bio and association she created at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, so it's just natural that related issues on other wikis get monitored too, that's part of the process. You don't agree with that evaluation, and that's perfectly OK. To each Misplaced Pages their own stuff 🤷 Darwin 16:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Please link the diff from portuguese wiki where the DYK for this wiki came up. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:59, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- it's the wikipedia articles created yesterday that we are evaluating, not any kind of DYK note. Darwin 17:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- How is this a related issue then? It sure looks like you followed this particular user around Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back no, I followed the articles, as they were also created here yesterday. Is that so hard to understand? Darwin 17:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Because of edits like this . Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- answering an accusation of being a dictator after flushing away the copyviios she uploaded. What's the problem? Darwin 17:19, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- No, that diff is the undo. Thats you edit warring apparent harassment onto someone's talk page on another wiki with a kissing face as the edit summary... In that context this does look like cross wiki harassment. Do you have a better explanation? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Just answered the troll there with another, as I was on the middle of something else. Yes, I know, not the nicest thing to do, but whatever. And why are we discussing Commons here now, anyway? Darwin 17:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- We're discussing cross wiki harassment, that makes edits on any wiki relevant to the discussion. You appear to have been harassing them on commons and then followed them here to continue the harassment because a temporary block there (which you appear to have had a hand in) prevented them from being active there. You absolutely can not do that. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I answered a troll, if there was any harassment was from that account towards me, not the opposite. Please don't invert the situation. Darwin 17:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Your edits on enwiki had nothing to do with trolling or other behavioral issues from that account, if your edits on enwiki were to address valid concerns informed by your experience on other wikis we would not be having this discussion. It was also you restoring your comment which they removed from their talk page, thats you trolling them and it makes their dictator claim look not like trolling but rather accurate. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I confess I've no idea why we are still having this discussion, as they were just that. But for the 50th time, these interactions have stopped long ago, and for a similar amount of time I've devotedly accepted and committed to all your rules. Darwin 18:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- In my opinion we're still having this discussion because you are stonewalling, perhaps its a language barrier but you don't come off as trustworthy or engaging in good faith. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I confess I've no idea why we are still having this discussion, as they were just that. But for the 50th time, these interactions have stopped long ago, and for a similar amount of time I've devotedly accepted and committed to all your rules. Darwin 18:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Your edits on enwiki had nothing to do with trolling or other behavioral issues from that account, if your edits on enwiki were to address valid concerns informed by your experience on other wikis we would not be having this discussion. It was also you restoring your comment which they removed from their talk page, thats you trolling them and it makes their dictator claim look not like trolling but rather accurate. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I answered a troll, if there was any harassment was from that account towards me, not the opposite. Please don't invert the situation. Darwin 17:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- We're discussing cross wiki harassment, that makes edits on any wiki relevant to the discussion. You appear to have been harassing them on commons and then followed them here to continue the harassment because a temporary block there (which you appear to have had a hand in) prevented them from being active there. You absolutely can not do that. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Just answered the troll there with another, as I was on the middle of something else. Yes, I know, not the nicest thing to do, but whatever. And why are we discussing Commons here now, anyway? Darwin 17:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- No, that diff is the undo. Thats you edit warring apparent harassment onto someone's talk page on another wiki with a kissing face as the edit summary... In that context this does look like cross wiki harassment. Do you have a better explanation? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- answering an accusation of being a dictator after flushing away the copyviios she uploaded. What's the problem? Darwin 17:19, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Because of edits like this . Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back no, I followed the articles, as they were also created here yesterday. Is that so hard to understand? Darwin 17:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- How is this a related issue then? It sure looks like you followed this particular user around Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- it's the wikipedia articles created yesterday that we are evaluating, not any kind of DYK note. Darwin 17:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Please link the diff from portuguese wiki where the DYK for this wiki came up. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:59, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- precisely because we are currently in the process of evaluating the notability of that bio and association she created at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, so it's just natural that related issues on other wikis get monitored too, that's part of the process. You don't agree with that evaluation, and that's perfectly OK. To each Misplaced Pages their own stuff 🤷 Darwin 16:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- And how did you become aware that there was something to disagree with? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I expressed my disagreement with that note, justifying with my opinion, and there's not even any misgendering issue there, AFAIK. Not sure if expressing that opinion here is forbidden or not, but in any case I've posted a note retiring from it already yesterday, so I've no idea what more do you want. Darwin 16:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- This isn't about the transphobia, this is about the harassment (they are seperate by apparently related claims). So how did you find yourself commenting on that DYK? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- that's old stuff, I already posted a note there retiring from that space yesterday. I'm really puzzled on what all this fuss is about. Darwin 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Honestly, this is an interesting idea but I think this needs to become an Arbitration Committee issue. The community is so heavily divided on this, it’s actually ridiculous. This whole situation just is bonkers. Like why is this at ANI anymore. Reader of Information (talk) 00:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- By an interesting idea I meant my idea of it becoming an arbitration committee issue is an interesting proposal. Reader of Information (talk) 00:23, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
I believe it may help too, if Darwin will promise to avoid interacting on main space with Skyshifter. GoodDay (talk) 17:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. Not that I ever interacted with her there AFAIK, anyway. Darwin 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think Darwin should avoid interacting with Skyshifter on all spaces on en.wikipedia.org. It's clear Darwin has made Skyshifter feel uncomfortable, and I don't appreciate it. Isaidnoway (talk) 17:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Isaidnoway I absolutely agree with that, I'm not doing any sort of interaction with that account anymore. I'm still answering here because you keep mentioning me. Darwin 17:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Since you "absolutely agree", then I will take your comment here as acknowledging a voluntary one-way interaction ban, broadly construed, as in effect. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Isaidnoway yes, that's correct. Darwin 18:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Since you "absolutely agree", then I will take your comment here as acknowledging a voluntary one-way interaction ban, broadly construed, as in effect. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Isaidnoway I absolutely agree with that, I'm not doing any sort of interaction with that account anymore. I'm still answering here because you keep mentioning me. Darwin 17:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think a one-way interaction ban between the editors would be for the best here. While I think there is some merit to a Gender and Sexuality tban, as some of Darwin's recent edits appear to be about righting great wrongs in the topic area, I believe the interaction ban would solve most of the issues raised here. Isabelle Belato 17:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- which "edits"? The 1 or 2 comments in the DYK section? Darwin 18:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- All your edits related to the subject, both here and on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages. Isabelle Belato 18:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Isabelle Belato You're evaluating my edits on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages to punish me in the English Misplaced Pages? Darwin 19:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- When there is cross-wiki harassment, then yes, your activity on other wikis is relevant. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @The Bushranger Can you explain how my general edit history in wiki.pt is relevant in any way to an accusation of cross-wiki harassment? Darwin 23:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- When there is cross-wiki harassment, then yes, your activity on other wikis is relevant. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Isabelle Belato You're evaluating my edits on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages to punish me in the English Misplaced Pages? Darwin 19:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- All your edits related to the subject, both here and on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages. Isabelle Belato 18:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- which "edits"? The 1 or 2 comments in the DYK section? Darwin 18:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
Would recommend that Darwin walk away from the general topic. This would avoid any need for topic bans. GoodDay (talk) 16:20, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Clarification
- Hello @Nil Einne - and others. Please recall that my opinion was specifically over the declaration of the child gender by her mother at or before her 4th birthday, by her mother own account based on classical gender stereotypes. It's specifically about that. I've no way to know what gender the child is or will eventually be in the future, and gladly accept whatever she chooses - as I would if she was my own child. I've eventually been harsher than needed in the DYK comment because that specific situation where a minor is extensively exposed with full name, photographs, etc. by her parents on social networks, newspapers and whatelse is generally condemned in my country, to the point of eventually configuring a crime here. Obviously Misplaced Pages has nothing to do with that when it comes to the spread of information, but in my view - obviously wrong, from the general reaction here - exposing the child in yet another place, let alone wiki.en main page, was a bit too much.
- As for misgendering, I am one of the founders and former board member of ILGA Portugal, which after 30 years still is the main LGBT association in Portugal, though not an active member for many years for moving away from Lisbon, where it's headquartered. For more than 30 years I've been on the fight against homophobia and transphobia, not specially in Misplaced Pages, but on the streets, where it was needed in the 1990s here in Portugal, when the whole LGBT thing was just starting and most people couldn't even tell the difference between a drag queen and a trangender woman. I was beaten up, lost my 2 front teeth on homo/transphobic street fights (the first one at 18 years old, for publicly defending from booers in the audience a trangender girl which was acting at a local bar )- and whatelse. I never had even the least impulse to misgender any of the many trangender people that always have been around me, and the few situations where that may have happened were online with people that I knew for years as being one gender, and took a while to sink they are another, because online there's not the ever helping visual clue. So it's kind of disheartening to be treated like this in a strange place by people I don't know just because I expressed an (harsh, agreed) opinion defending the age of consent for children, and condemning their parents interference on that.
- The TBan is not very relevant for me, as I seldom edit here and despite the activism of my past days LGBT is not my primary interest on Misplaced Pages, but I'm considerably saddened by the misunderstandings, bad faith assumptions, false accusations that have been told here about me, though eventually the flaw is not in the whole group that has their own rules and culture, but in the newcomer which don't understand it well in all its nuances, as was my case here.
- Finally, as the misunderstandings continue, I never came here after Skyshifter, which as is public and she knows, I've always considered a good editor and helped several times with articles and what else (which is also why I felt confident to answer with a 😘 when she called me a dictator in another project, though it was obviously not the most appropriate way to answer it, and for which I apologize to Skyshifter). In this last row I wasn't even directly involved in her indefinite block in wiki.pt, despite being mentioned there. I didn't even touched the articles she created here on Thamirys Nunes and Minha Criança Trans or addressed she here in any way. I came here because of the DYK note, which, as said above, I thought was an exaggerated exposition for that case here on the English Misplaced Pages. As you extensively demonstrated here, it is not, and I defer to your appreciation. Despite that, after this whole situation I've not the least interest on interacting in any possible way with Skyshifter, with or without IBan.
- And that's it. Hopefully you'll excuse my verbosity, specially in such a festive day, but I felt this last clarification was needed. I also present my apologies to all those who may have felt offended by an eventual appearance of cockiness or defiance which I inadvertently sometimes transmit in my speech. I'll return here if specifically asked to, otherwise I'll leave the debate for this community. Again, stay well, and have an happy new year. Darwin 17:58, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
Proposed Community Sanctions
I offered DarwIn an off ramp above and their response was to reiterate their views on a highly controversial subject and their responses to concerns about their interactions with Skyshifter have been entirely unsatisfactory. This looks a like a pretty clear case of IDHT revolving around their strong disagreement with one of our guidelines. Frankly, I came very close to just blocking them after their response to my suggestion. This discussion has already dragged on long enough. For purposes of clarity, nobody is required to agree with all of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. And yes, gender is a highly controversial subject. I have my own disagreements with parts of MOS:GENDERID. But as the old saying goes, themz the rules until they aint. Editors are free to disagree with community P&G, but are not free to ignore or flout them. It's time to settle this.
Proposed DarwIn is topic banned from all pages and discussions relating to WP:GENSEX broadly construed and is subject to a one way IBan with user Skyshifter, also broadly construed. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I note that Darwin has agreed above to the IBan. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose - He's already agreed to avoid that general topic area in future & Skyshifter. PS - If a t-ban is imposed? limit it to six-months. GoodDay (talk) 18:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Why should the community accept voluntary TBAN and IBAN which can easily be reneged on when we can impose it as a community sanction and ensure that any violation is actionable? TarnishedPath 01:08, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support topic ban and IBAN, both broadly construed - sorry GoodDay but I do not trust this user's words, and so we need a proper sanction. GiantSnowman 18:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support. Just read through the above and good grief. - The Bushranger One ping only 18:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I said above I would support this proposal if it was brought forward, and I do. Simonm223 (talk) 18:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Why it should be a one-way iban? Skyshifter started this topic with the characterization of their opponent as "a known transphobic editor". A normal editor would be blocked just for writing this. I am not sure a iban is needed, but if it is needed it must be mutual. Ymblanter (talk) 18:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- That's actually a fair point. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- It would be more compelling if DarwIn weren't so committed to misgendering a child out of some apparent WP:RGW impulse. Simonm223 (talk) 19:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 You have been misjudging me - It was quite the opposite, actually, if it's worth anything. Darwin 19:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- The child, according to the reliable sources I have seen, uses she/her pronouns. Your changing your comments from he/him to they/them does not bring even that one comment in line with our MOS. I am not interested in whether you, in your heart of hearts, are a transphobe. I am concerned that your editing in the WP:GENSEX area is disruptive in a way that will likely make trans editors less comfortable working in the en.wiki project. As a result I think you should avoid editing in that topic area. Furthermore I think you should leave Skyshifter alone as you have not provided a satisfactory explanation for your participation in the DYK thread. Simonm223 (talk) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 OK, I didn't knew the child used those pronouns when she was 4 years old, I commit to use them here if I would ever talk about that issue again (which I definitely will not, anyway). Darwin 20:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- The child, according to the reliable sources I have seen, uses she/her pronouns. Your changing your comments from he/him to they/them does not bring even that one comment in line with our MOS. I am not interested in whether you, in your heart of hearts, are a transphobe. I am concerned that your editing in the WP:GENSEX area is disruptive in a way that will likely make trans editors less comfortable working in the en.wiki project. As a result I think you should avoid editing in that topic area. Furthermore I think you should leave Skyshifter alone as you have not provided a satisfactory explanation for your participation in the DYK thread. Simonm223 (talk) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 You have been misjudging me - It was quite the opposite, actually, if it's worth anything. Darwin 19:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- It would be more compelling if DarwIn weren't so committed to misgendering a child out of some apparent WP:RGW impulse. Simonm223 (talk) 19:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- That's actually a fair point. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- If they weren't before they are now... Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Ok, to be clear, I oppose a one-way IB. I do not find this argument convincing. Ymblanter (talk) 19:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I agree. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 12:46, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support this seems like a reasonable set of restrictions, I hope they can stick to it Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back I never edited in that topic here, as far as I can remember, not is it a primary interest I have, so it certainly will not be difficult to hold, even if it comes out to me as incredibly unbased and unfair. Darwin 19:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Your edits to DYK were within that topic area. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back And those were the only ones, and I voluntarily stopped them yesterday immediately after being reverted. How does that configure the kind of systematic behaviour that would justify a topic ban? I really apologize, but in this moment the way I see this is a kind of Salem witch hunt, with people accusing me of all kind of slurs and abominations, even when they are in directly opposition to my stance here. You seem to be punishing me for my opinions and the way I (supposedly) think about a very particular issue (if 4 years old have self determination or not), which comes out to me as really unfair and unworthy of a project like this. Darwin 20:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- How is that in direct opposition to your stance there? Your edit summary says "forgot that English has the neutral pronoun, which is useful in these cases. fixed." which suggests that it is in line with that stance Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back I'm sorry, I seem to have missed your point. What is wrong with correcting the gender to a neutral pronoun in such a situation? Darwin 20:13, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- This edit might help you get the point. At this point your conduct on this page is becoming a serious behavioral issue... you can't lie, sealion, obfuscate, and misdirect endlessly without consequences. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back I can fix those too as I did yesterday, if you think it's important 🤷🏽♂️ Darwin 20:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You are not supposed to edit comments after they have been responded to in that way. But by fix do you mean change to "she" or do you mean change to "they"? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back Change to "she", following this wikipedia rules, certainly. So if I can't fix them, what do you propose instead to mend it? Darwin 20:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Given the sheer quantity of lies and obfuscations from you (the truth is apparently a last resort) the only fix I can see is a formal one, a topic ban and an interaction ban. Up above you so easily went from "I never edited in the topic area" to "those were the only ones" that I don't even think you understand that you were caught in a blatant lie. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back There was not any "lie", please stop assuming bad faith. I thought you were referring to the main space only, which I believe is a fairly assumption to do, if the used word is "editing". Darwin 20:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- At best you're saying that you lack the competence on enwiki to adhere to any voluntary restrictions. This will be my last comment unless pinged by an editor other than you, my apologies that this has been an unpleasant process for you. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Darwin has a long history of editing in WP:GENSEX albeit generally less controversially. an example. Simonm223 (talk) 20:35, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 That's documented with the sources and all, and the proposition there was that the tupinambá was gay, not a woman. It's not even gender related. So you desperatly want something to justify a TB, bring it on. I'm fed up with what seems to be a circular and nonsense discussion on this board, where whatever I say is a lie and with bad intentions. I don't even edit here in the gender topic, but if it makes you happy, bring it on. Darwin 20:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- DarwIn WP:GENSEX covers gender and sexuality. You have been saying you aren't interested in the topic area. It appears to be one of your main areas of interest on en.wiki. Simonm223 (talk) 20:43, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 Thanks for clarifying that. Fact is that I don't edit much here. I've occasionally added or fixed some LGBT related stuff in the past when it crossed my main interest, History, but it certainly is not a primary interest, despite being LGBT myself. Darwin 20:49, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- DarwIn WP:GENSEX covers gender and sexuality. You have been saying you aren't interested in the topic area. It appears to be one of your main areas of interest on en.wiki. Simonm223 (talk) 20:43, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 That's documented with the sources and all, and the proposition there was that the tupinambá was gay, not a woman. It's not even gender related. So you desperatly want something to justify a TB, bring it on. I'm fed up with what seems to be a circular and nonsense discussion on this board, where whatever I say is a lie and with bad intentions. I don't even edit here in the gender topic, but if it makes you happy, bring it on. Darwin 20:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back There was not any "lie", please stop assuming bad faith. I thought you were referring to the main space only, which I believe is a fairly assumption to do, if the used word is "editing". Darwin 20:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Given the sheer quantity of lies and obfuscations from you (the truth is apparently a last resort) the only fix I can see is a formal one, a topic ban and an interaction ban. Up above you so easily went from "I never edited in the topic area" to "those were the only ones" that I don't even think you understand that you were caught in a blatant lie. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back Change to "she", following this wikipedia rules, certainly. So if I can't fix them, what do you propose instead to mend it? Darwin 20:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You are not supposed to edit comments after they have been responded to in that way. But by fix do you mean change to "she" or do you mean change to "they"? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back I can fix those too as I did yesterday, if you think it's important 🤷🏽♂️ Darwin 20:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- This edit might help you get the point. At this point your conduct on this page is becoming a serious behavioral issue... you can't lie, sealion, obfuscate, and misdirect endlessly without consequences. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back I'm sorry, I seem to have missed your point. What is wrong with correcting the gender to a neutral pronoun in such a situation? Darwin 20:13, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- How is that in direct opposition to your stance there? Your edit summary says "forgot that English has the neutral pronoun, which is useful in these cases. fixed." which suggests that it is in line with that stance Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back And those were the only ones, and I voluntarily stopped them yesterday immediately after being reverted. How does that configure the kind of systematic behaviour that would justify a topic ban? I really apologize, but in this moment the way I see this is a kind of Salem witch hunt, with people accusing me of all kind of slurs and abominations, even when they are in directly opposition to my stance here. You seem to be punishing me for my opinions and the way I (supposedly) think about a very particular issue (if 4 years old have self determination or not), which comes out to me as really unfair and unworthy of a project like this. Darwin 20:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Your edits to DYK were within that topic area. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back I never edited in that topic here, as far as I can remember, not is it a primary interest I have, so it certainly will not be difficult to hold, even if it comes out to me as incredibly unbased and unfair. Darwin 19:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support per Bushranger. charlotte 20:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose. As GoodDay noted, the problem appears to already be addressed. If the problem persists then go for a sanction. Look we let people argue their point here and it does seem like most of the support is because editors feel Darwin isn't contrite enough, not that they expect the issue to continue. Note that I'm not weighing in on any interaction bans. Springee (talk) 20:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose per Springee. This entire issue could have been dropped days ago when DarwIn acknowledged he would walk away, and instead seems to have been needlessly escalated again and again and again. * Pppery * it has begun... 20:51, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Pppery: days ago? I think you might have misread the time stamps. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:57, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support the TBAN; personally I'd have indeffed several outdents sooner, but here we are. No opinion on the IBAN. ⇒SWATJester 23:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support Given what's happened, I think an enforceable topic ban is better than Darwin stepping away. IMO the BLP issues is far more concerning than gensex one so I'd support a BLP topic ban as well, but it seems likely a gensex one would be enough to stop Darwin feeling the continued need to express their opinions on a living person. Since Darwin is going to step away anyway and barely edits en, it should be a moot point and if it's not that's why it's enforceable. As for the iban, while I don't think Skyshifter should have described Darwin in that way when opening this thread, I think we can accept it as a one time mistake under the stress of apparently being followed and given questionable way Darwin ended up in a dispute here with someone they'd had problems with elsewhere I think a one-way iban is justified. Nil Einne (talk) 23:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Nil Einne What " continued need to express their opinions on a living person"? My single-1-single comment in the DYK? Darwin 23:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn: Demonstrating the problem. You claim you only did it once elsewhere but anyone reading this thread can see you did it here so many times #c-DarwIn-20241229133200-Skyshifter-20241229132800, #c-DarwIn-20241229152900-Simonm223-20241229150600, #c-DarwIn-20241229154200-Blue-Sonnet-20241229154000, #c-DarwIn-20241229154100-Simonm223-20241229153800, #c-DarwIn-20241229160700-GiantSnowman-20241229154400, #c-DarwIn-20241229172200-Ad_Orientem-20241229171800. I think it represents maybe 1/3 of your comments here (whether counting comments or text). There is absolutely no reason for you to go around expressing your opinions on two different living persons to say you're going to walk away. And if you need to express your opinion on living persons to defend your actions, you clearly have no defence. Nil Einne (talk) 00:22, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- So let's get this straight. You are proposing a topic ban on me because of the personal opinions on (the eventual lack of) selfdetermination of 4 year old children that I expressed here in this board, despite that my editions related to it were limited to a 1-single-1 comment on that issue on the DYK page? This is really looking like thought police. I tell you, my personal positions are my personal positions, and I'll not change them to please you, even if if costs me a Topic Ban for barely mentioned them on this project a single time before this topic was opened here. Darwin 00:28, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Holding an opinion ≠ expressing an opinion. Only one of these is causing an issue. Blue Sonnet (talk) 00:44, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- I expressed it only 1-one-1 time here almost 1 day before being recalled here to explain it, and after voluntarily saying in the same page that I would not express it again there. Now I'm being punished for explaining it here too, after being requested to do that? This is insufferable. Darwin 00:55, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- User:DarwIn, I think at this point, further comments from you will not be helping your case. If this is insufferable (and being summoned to ANI generally is), it might help to step back from this discussion and only respond if editors ask you specific questions. When discussions get this long, often the small benefit from continuing to comment does not outweigh the cost of continued misunderstanding among editors. Liz
- @Liz: Thank you for the wise advice, I'll be doing that. Darwin 03:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn: you can think whatever you like about living persons. I have a lot of views on living persons which I would never, ever express on wiki for various reasons including BLP. Also you defence is bullshit. No one ever asked you to make accusations around living persons to defend your actions. And yes it is fairly normal that editors may be sanctioned if they feel they need to do such things about living persons on ANI as part of some silly argument or defence. I recall an editor who was temporarily blocked after they felt the need to say two very very famous extremely public figure living persons (and some non living) were sex predators to prove some point at ANI. And I'm fairly sure a lot of people have said and feel those people are sex predators including some Wikipedians I'd even probably agree in at least one case, they just understand it's not something they should be expressing here. Nil Einne (talk) 23:02, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- For clarity, what I mean by my last sentence is that I'm sure quite a few people would agree with the statements. I'm sure such statements have been made elsewhere probably even in opinions printed in reliable sources (I think the editor did link to some such opinions). I'm sure even quite a few Wikipedians would agree that one or more of these people are sex predators, I think I'd even agree with it in at least one case. However most of us understand that our personal views of living persons, especially highly negatives views are generally not something to be expressed on wiki except when for some reason it's important enough to the discussion that it's reasonable to say it. When you keep saying something and in the same paragraph acknowledge the English wikipedia doesn't consider your opinion relevant, then it's clear there was no reason for you to say it. You're still free to believe it just as I'm still free to believe all those things about living persons that I would never express on wiki. Nil Einne (talk) 06:08, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- User:DarwIn, I think at this point, further comments from you will not be helping your case. If this is insufferable (and being summoned to ANI generally is), it might help to step back from this discussion and only respond if editors ask you specific questions. When discussions get this long, often the small benefit from continuing to comment does not outweigh the cost of continued misunderstanding among editors. Liz
- I expressed it only 1-one-1 time here almost 1 day before being recalled here to explain it, and after voluntarily saying in the same page that I would not express it again there. Now I'm being punished for explaining it here too, after being requested to do that? This is insufferable. Darwin 00:55, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Holding an opinion ≠ expressing an opinion. Only one of these is causing an issue. Blue Sonnet (talk) 00:44, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- So let's get this straight. You are proposing a topic ban on me because of the personal opinions on (the eventual lack of) selfdetermination of 4 year old children that I expressed here in this board, despite that my editions related to it were limited to a 1-single-1 comment on that issue on the DYK page? This is really looking like thought police. I tell you, my personal positions are my personal positions, and I'll not change them to please you, even if if costs me a Topic Ban for barely mentioned them on this project a single time before this topic was opened here. Darwin 00:28, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn: Demonstrating the problem. You claim you only did it once elsewhere but anyone reading this thread can see you did it here so many times #c-DarwIn-20241229133200-Skyshifter-20241229132800, #c-DarwIn-20241229152900-Simonm223-20241229150600, #c-DarwIn-20241229154200-Blue-Sonnet-20241229154000, #c-DarwIn-20241229154100-Simonm223-20241229153800, #c-DarwIn-20241229160700-GiantSnowman-20241229154400, #c-DarwIn-20241229172200-Ad_Orientem-20241229171800. I think it represents maybe 1/3 of your comments here (whether counting comments or text). There is absolutely no reason for you to go around expressing your opinions on two different living persons to say you're going to walk away. And if you need to express your opinion on living persons to defend your actions, you clearly have no defence. Nil Einne (talk) 00:22, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Nil Einne What " continued need to express their opinions on a living person"? My single-1-single comment in the DYK? Darwin 23:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support - Darwin's replies and conduct here indicates that he simply doesn't get it.
- MiasmaEternal☎ 02:52, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose - Per GoodDay and Springee. Ciridae (talk) 05:47, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support TBAN per Bushranger. Darwin has already agreed to the 1-way IBAN — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk) 10:56, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose Given the history at pt.wiki, I think this is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. There should be no interaction between the parties, which Darwin has agreed to.Boynamedsue (talk) 14:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose The agreed-upon IBAN takes care of the ongoing issue. While the edits related to the child were problematic, this doesn't appear to be case of significantly wider problems in this topic area, and the full scope of MOS:GENDERID may very well be surprising to editors who don't do much in that area. I don't think there's been near enough here to no longer WP:AGF. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 15:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
Support TBAN/IBANWeak support TBAN/Strong support IBAN - WP:NQP suggests that queerphobia is inherently disruptive. calling a queer activist a "troglodyte", the previous history of abuse on pt.wikipedia, and the current responses from Darwin indicate WP:NOTHERE behavior. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- This reasoning looks like a case of punishing somebody for political and cultural views rather than behaviour.Boynamedsue (talk) 16:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Followung editors from wiki to wiki because of transphobic beliefs is disruptive, and creepy. A boy named sue is a transphobic song by the way. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 17:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oh dear. Do you think I should have a siteban, or would a TBAN suffice?--Boynamedsue (talk) 18:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- If I was named after a joke about misgendering people, I'd avoid defending crosswiki culture warriors worried about misgendering people. You may just really be into Shel Silverstein. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 19:26, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- "A Boy Named Sue", made famous by Johnny Cash sixty years ago , is a transphobic "joke about misgendering people"??? Oh my god, some people need to get out in the real world more. EEng 23:58, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for your valuable input. As always, you have advanced the conversation in a helpful way EEng. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 00:05, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- No need to thank me. It's just part of the service. EEng 01:19, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- OK boomer. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 01:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- Well, you certainly put me in my place with that one. EEng 21:14, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- OK boomer. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 01:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- No need to thank me. It's just part of the service. EEng 01:19, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for your valuable input. As always, you have advanced the conversation in a helpful way EEng. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 00:05, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- "A Boy Named Sue", made famous by Johnny Cash sixty years ago , is a transphobic "joke about misgendering people"??? Oh my god, some people need to get out in the real world more. EEng 23:58, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- I understand. Speaking up for the witch is a sign I too might be a witch. I'll try to be more careful in future.Boynamedsue (talk) 20:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Misgendering BLPs is disruptive. A Johnny Cash related username is not. Suggest the IP WP:DROPTHESTICK - while we may disagree with Boynamedsue regarding their interpretation here they have done nothing wrong. Simonm223 (talk) 21:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- If I was named after a joke about misgendering people, I'd avoid defending crosswiki culture warriors worried about misgendering people. You may just really be into Shel Silverstein. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 19:26, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oh dear. Do you think I should have a siteban, or would a TBAN suffice?--Boynamedsue (talk) 18:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- No. It's stopping a disruptive editor from continuing to edit disruptively. Simonm223 (talk) 17:17, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Followung editors from wiki to wiki because of transphobic beliefs is disruptive, and creepy. A boy named sue is a transphobic song by the way. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 17:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) NQP is an essay. Essentially it's an op-ed piece. It does not carry any force in the realm of WP:PG, and the views expressed there are controversial. (See the essay's talk page.). IMO words with some variation on "phobe/phobic" &c. are being routinely weaponized by people on one side of hot button cultural/political debates as part of an effort to demonize those on the other side of these debates. As such, I am inclined to view the use of such terms as a specie of WP:NPA. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- fair enough, i'll remove my vote for TBAN.
- sidenote, I have no qualms with labeling a behavior as queerphobia. I don't think calling out discrimination or disruptive attitudes is inherently a vio of NPA. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:53, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- ... I am indecisive.. I'll add weak support for TBAN, I still think the topic area should not have folks who are disruptive like this. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 17:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Pervasively misgendering a child based on the belief that a child cannot express a desire to transition is a form of transphobic behavior. If it was a similar comment made about a BLP on the basis of religion or skin colour there would be no mention of WP:NPA. Misplaced Pages is generally good about handling racism. It is a perpetual stain upon the reputation of Misplaced Pages that it's culture continues to worry more about the feelings of people who take transphobic actions than of the victims of the same. Simonm223 (talk) 17:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose as unnecessary given the commitments already given. WaggersTALK 11:29, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- This reasoning looks like a case of punishing somebody for political and cultural views rather than behaviour.Boynamedsue (talk) 16:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
| Let's not. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC). Edited to include edit conflict comment. CNC (talk) 15:56, 3 January 2025 (UTC) |
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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| This is affairs of other wikis. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:10, 31 December 2024 (UTC) |
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
As a ptwiki user that know what's happening but talked to both sides of the discussion throughout it: This whole discussion started as a beef between Skyshifter and DarwIn. Skyshifter didn't accept some changes DarwIn made to an article "of her" (quotes because articles doesn't have owners. I respect her pronouns), and when discussing with DarwIn, called the whole Portuguese Misplaced Pages project a sewage (here)/in her UP, thus being banned and the ban being endorsed on the block discussion (in portuguese). The discussion was based on the references for the article, was solved in the ptwiki with an outburst from Sky, and that was it. This whole problem was brought here for a single reason only: Beef from Skyshifter with DarwIn. A single change or a single opinion on a DYK shouldn't be reason for a TB or IBAN anywhere in the world, especially considering that it was a difference interpreting the references. I know that my statement won't change anything, as there is an apparent "consensus" on TBanning and IBANning him, though I wanted to make things clear for everyone. I am totally open for questioning regarding any of my statements above, and I will supply you with any proof I have and you need. Just ping me here and if the inquiry/proofs are extremely important, please leave me a message on my portuguese talk page (direct url). It can be in English, just for me to see you need me here. Cheers. Eduardo G. 03:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC) JardelW is a user who was banned from the Portuguese Misplaced Pages due to his detestable behavior. This individual used the same Telegram group that he is now criticizing. The editor was banned from this group due to his behavior, in which he called respected users of the community "worms, scoundrels, trash and deniers". And DarwIn is one of the administrators of the group where he is banned, so you can already imagine why he is here. Now, once again he is trying to destabilize the community by defending an editor who called the entire project a sewer and made unproven accusations against an administrator. At this point, the account is practically banned and the article that caused the discord has its deletion or merge defended by several editors. By coming here, JardelW and Skyshifter are, in a way, stating that the entire community is prejudiced. Yet another offense enters the list as proof of Jardel's destabilizing behavior. Furthermore, this user already tried to carry out the same destabilization by contesting on meta the banning of IPs, a consensual decision among hundreds of editors. And when he was still blocked, went to Meta-Wiki in an attempt to intervene in the Misplaced Pages domain, where he is banned, simply because he did not agree with the deletion of an article. And this without presenting any evidence. It is clear that Jardel's objective here is to take revenge on the community, and he will be punished for it. InvictumAlways (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 04:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
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- InvictumAlways - this is your second edit ever, and your account was just created today - how did you get to this ANI post? jellyfish ✉ 05:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- I saw a discussion in the group and created the account to not appear as an IP. InvictumAlways (talk) 05:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Jardel The objective of the channel is to be a more relaxed place. And it's not official, as you said yourself previously. Angry moment? Are you sorry? After your block, you attacked editors on a social network, as attested by a CheckUser: . And there are no prejudiced comments. That's a lie. Where are the links? And how much time have you devoted to the project when all you do is attack others? Enough of this nonsense. I ask that an administrator evaluate the conduct of this account. InvictumAlways (talk) 05:16, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- I didn't realize the discussion was closed. Sorry. InvictumAlways (talk) 05:18, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- Supporting both IBAN and TBAN. Someone who actively believes in misgendering should not be allowed into this area when they have already demonstrably made another editor uncomfortable. The snarky reply to GiantSnowman does not convince me they would respond well if another editor brought up a similar concern in the future.--Jasper Deng (talk) 07:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- Can't we give this child and her mother some privacy? What is it about gender issues, as opposed to other medical or developmental issues, that seems to give everyone a right to comment? Let's just report what reliable sources say and leave it at that. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:38, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- If the mother had wanted privacy for her child, writing a book which makes it possible to identify her and know intimate details of her biology for the rest of her life, while documenting her transition step by step for hundreds of thousands of instagram followers, seem strange choices. I don't feel there are any privacy concerns here, that horse has long bolted, and we had nothing to do with opening the door.Boynamedsue (talk) 09:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
- BLP requires we take great care what we say about living persons regardless of the wisdom of their decisions. This is hardly the first time it's come up where both in articles and in discussions we've required editors obey BLP even if there is a lot of nonsense out there which arises in part from decisions subjects have made. Editors can do that stuff on Reddit or 4chan or wherever they want without such requirements. If editors cannot follow our BLP requirements, they need to stop editing either voluntarily or involuntarily. Nil Einne (talk) 10:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think BLP covers things that the subject puts into the public domain about themselves or, when we are talking about talkpages, personal opinions on the morality of things they reveal about themselves.Boynamedsue (talk) 13:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- talkpages def are covered by BLP as per the policy page.and the policy gives wide latitude about what the subject may have redacted if they object to info, even if they had previously or somehow otherwise placed that info in public domain.
- concerns about privacy have to weigh against dueness but arguing the book gives dueness to try to be internet sleuths and discover and identify a child is probs not gonna pass the smell test.Bluethricecreamman (talk) 13:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- The woman's book names the child, and photos of her are regularly published by the mother on instagram. There is an interview with the mother in Brazilian Marie Claire giving the child's full name and photos. I would suggest not much "internet sleuthing" is required here. Misplaced Pages, and I include Darwin in this, has (rightly) much more concern for her daughter's privacy than she does.Boynamedsue (talk) 15:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- The mother may have decided to publicise things, but the child certainly hasn't. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:42, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- Children cannot consent, their parents can. (CC) Tbhotch 21:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would totally agree, but that is irrelevant here, nothing Darwin did was related to revealing the child's identity. He criticised the mother in strong terms on talkpages and this is what the BLP argument comes down to.--Boynamedsue (talk) 23:08, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's incorrect. He's clearly disputing the child's identity. He might feel that's justified but Misplaced Pages isn't the place for that crap. Whatever the wisdom of whatever the mother did, there's zero reason to think the child is helped in any way by an editor denying their identity. As I've said before, if at any time the child says what the mother said was wrong or otherwise indicates they have a different identity from what's been presented then we'll change our article. But until that happens, we should treat things as they are and not allow editors to question the child's identity. I'd note that DarwIn also kept talking about the child's age in a very misleading way to the extent that I eventually felt complelled point out their bullshit. I did not want to talk about the child's age here on ANI, it shouldn't relate to anything. But what can we do when DarwIn keeps uttering nonsense about the child's age? Nil Einne (talk) 13:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't feel disputing the validity of the process by which the mother came to the conclusion the child was trans is covered by BLP. The description she made of the process is public knowledge, if a person wants to say "she shouldn't have done it like that" then they are not making any claims about the person at all, merely about whether, in their opinion, their actions are correct.--Boynamedsue (talk) 15:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ask yourself whether Misplaced Pages would even entertain this discourse if the identity was anything other than a trans one. The answer is a flat no. Darwin's interpretation of the mother's interpretation of her daughter's identity is inappropriate for the project, is disruptive and is openly antagonistic toward trans editors. I think nothing more can be gained from endlessly debating whether we should pretend there is a carve-out to BLP requirements for children within oppressed minorities. Simonm223 (talk) 17:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't feel disputing the validity of the process by which the mother came to the conclusion the child was trans is covered by BLP. The description she made of the process is public knowledge, if a person wants to say "she shouldn't have done it like that" then they are not making any claims about the person at all, merely about whether, in their opinion, their actions are correct.--Boynamedsue (talk) 15:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's incorrect. He's clearly disputing the child's identity. He might feel that's justified but Misplaced Pages isn't the place for that crap. Whatever the wisdom of whatever the mother did, there's zero reason to think the child is helped in any way by an editor denying their identity. As I've said before, if at any time the child says what the mother said was wrong or otherwise indicates they have a different identity from what's been presented then we'll change our article. But until that happens, we should treat things as they are and not allow editors to question the child's identity. I'd note that DarwIn also kept talking about the child's age in a very misleading way to the extent that I eventually felt complelled point out their bullshit. I did not want to talk about the child's age here on ANI, it shouldn't relate to anything. But what can we do when DarwIn keeps uttering nonsense about the child's age? Nil Einne (talk) 13:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- The mother may have decided to publicise things, but the child certainly hasn't. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:42, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- The woman's book names the child, and photos of her are regularly published by the mother on instagram. There is an interview with the mother in Brazilian Marie Claire giving the child's full name and photos. I would suggest not much "internet sleuthing" is required here. Misplaced Pages, and I include Darwin in this, has (rightly) much more concern for her daughter's privacy than she does.Boynamedsue (talk) 15:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think BLP covers things that the subject puts into the public domain about themselves or, when we are talking about talkpages, personal opinions on the morality of things they reveal about themselves.Boynamedsue (talk) 13:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- BLP requires we take great care what we say about living persons regardless of the wisdom of their decisions. This is hardly the first time it's come up where both in articles and in discussions we've required editors obey BLP even if there is a lot of nonsense out there which arises in part from decisions subjects have made. Editors can do that stuff on Reddit or 4chan or wherever they want without such requirements. If editors cannot follow our BLP requirements, they need to stop editing either voluntarily or involuntarily. Nil Einne (talk) 10:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- If the mother had wanted privacy for her child, writing a book which makes it possible to identify her and know intimate details of her biology for the rest of her life, while documenting her transition step by step for hundreds of thousands of instagram followers, seem strange choices. I don't feel there are any privacy concerns here, that horse has long bolted, and we had nothing to do with opening the door.Boynamedsue (talk) 09:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support TBAN, no comment on IBAN. This is blatant POV harassment. (CC) Tbhotch 21:55, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support. Editors in this topic area can and often do disagree on the underlying issues, which often helpfully ensures that all such material on Misplaced Pages follows our policies and guidelines. However, the responses to Ad Orientem's request and various replies above shows that the proposed remedies would be appropriate given the BLP issues in play here.-- Patar knight - /contributions 22:28, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose any sanctions I’m sorry if I’m interfering in something I’m not involved with, but I’ve been watching this discussion and I think it’s needlessly toxic. What I’m seeing is a misunderstanding of some inappropriate WP:OR on a hot-button issue sparking a dispute that turned into “DarwIn is a transphobic bully” which I don’t think is true. I think the two main parties should simply avoid each other voluntarily and the situation will quickly de-escalate. Dronebogus (talk) 05:09, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support TBAN, indifferent to IBAN. Having followed this topic for a few days, it's convinced me that a topic ban for both GENSEX and BLP is entirely appropriate in this instance. My initial scepticism passed after reading responses from the editor and realising that the understanding of BLP policy appears to be even more incomplete than I originally thought. The deceleration from the editor to avoid such topics voluntarily is irrelevant, as combined with the lack of understanding over the concept of broadly construed, commitments have already been made and broken within this discussion alone. So respectfully, I believe this WP:NOTHERE type editing, whether it is attempting to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS or simply WP:BLUDGEONING discussions, is nonetheless disruptive and uncivil at times. CNC (talk) 18:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose per Dronebogus. I'd say "we're better than this" if I believed it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose Skyshifter, if anything, is harassing Darwin in this instance. Darwin has agreed to an IBAN, never mind that he's expressed desires to deëscelate what has become the longest thread on AN or ANI as of writing. JayCubby 22:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support This is a pretty explicit case of POV harassment. Their replies to the topic likewise do not give me faith they will adhere to a self imposed limitation. Darwin claimed to have agreed to step away before the ANI was created, but the edit history shows that Darwin continued editing the page up until an hour before Skyshifter created the ANI. Thus, there should be an actionable sanction. I fail to understand how it is Skyshifter doing the harassment at all as Cubby suggests. Darwin even called skyshifter a troglydite (here) to boot. Relm (talk) 15:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oh my fucking god. This whole thread is nuts. I wish I could pardon my french but this is CRAZY.
- Never in a million years would’ve I expected myself to be responding to a thread like this but I mean here I am.
- Although Skywing’s concerns of harassment are valid especially if he’s being tracked across Misplaced Pages’s website, as far as I know, there are no guidelines that state someone can be punished for actions on another Misplaced Pages.
- I support the notion of Darwin being topic banned from gender related articles (especially trans ones), for the simple fact that his conflict of interest with transphobia has clearly caused a disruption to the Misplaced Pages community.
- I oppose with the IP-ban because if anything this SHOULD’VE ended a week ago when Darwin voluntarily said he would not edit those pages as well as avoid any interaction with Skywing.
Reader of Information (talk) 15:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)- No one has proposed an IP Ban. The Aforementioned 'IBan' is a one way interaction-ban. Relm (talk) 16:28, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I understand, I meant that. Apologies. I misunderstood what it stood for. I would prefer if the IBAN was two way instead of one-way. Seems hardly fair in my honest opinion when both I suppose are equally responsible and to share the blame. This is a messy situation so putting the blame on one when both are equally responsible seems hardly fair. But that's my two cents.
- NOTE: I don't condone homophobia or queerphobia or whatever the term is (I'm not really informed enough in this situation to know what Misplaced Pages calls it so I'm adding both just in case) so please don't take it as me defending either side as that is NOT my intent.
- Cheers,
Reader of Information (talk) 01:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC)- This reply reminded me of the essay WP:CLUE. CNC (talk) 01:15, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Lol. It is accurate. That literally is what it is I suppose lol. Reader of Information (talk) 01:19, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- This reply reminded me of the essay WP:CLUE. CNC (talk) 01:15, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- No one has proposed an IP Ban. The Aforementioned 'IBan' is a one way interaction-ban. Relm (talk) 16:28, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose any sanctions against Darwin per Dronebogus. I wish we were better than this, but like TBUA, I don't actually believe that we are. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 20:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support both TBAN and IBAN. Their behaviour at DYK might have been mitigated if they had taken responsibility here instead of doubling down. A TBAN and IBAN will reduce disruption. TarnishedPath 01:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- After I left my comment above and after providing Darwin with a CTOP notice they commented at Special:Diff/1267644460 accusing me of coming to their talk page to "
further troll me with this nonsense warning
". TarnishedPath 01:39, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- After I left my comment above and after providing Darwin with a CTOP notice they commented at Special:Diff/1267644460 accusing me of coming to their talk page to "
- Support both. I'm baffled that some people above are saying "well, they agreed to stop voluntarily" - did they not read the massive post Darwin made above? It amounts to an extended "I'm sorry that you were offended." Trusting that someone will avoid the same mistakes in the future on their own requires that they understand and admit to those mistakes, which is obviously not the case here; how can we trust that an editor will abide by a self-imposed restriction when they won't even meaningfully acknowledge the errors that made that restriction necessary? Therefore, sanctions are necessary. --Aquillion (talk) 03:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support both. To make sure I haven't lost my goddamn mind, I read this discussion twice. I personally believe Darwin is in the wrong here. His behavior on enwiki violates both GENSEX and BLP sanctions (), and he doubled down when he had the chance to defend himself (Special:Diff/1267644460 and comments above). Even if we play devil's advocate and assume Darwin's claims about Sky being a troll/vandal and sockmaster (which is a heavy accusation to make) on ptwiki are true, her work on enwiki has shown that she's changed for the better. This is coming from a person who has interacted with Sky a couple of times (Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Virtual Self (EP)/archive1, Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Virtual Self (EP)/archive2, Talk:Quannnic/GA1); she is an amazing editor on here. For the sake of everyone involved and to avoid another mess like this, the sanctions above should be enforced. 💽 LunaEclipse 💽 🌹 ⚧ 08:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support - the doubling (and tripling) down that this user engaged in above has convinced me that Misplaced Pages would be better off if he did not engage in the relevant topic areas. Hatman31 (he/him · talk · contribs) 17:31, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support both IBAN and TBAN. With all due respect to Dronebogus, there is no way this can be chalked up as just an OR misunderstanding when Darwin has gone out of his way to repeately misgender the individual in question while throwing personal attacks at Sky. Regardless of any issue at another wiki, the behavior here is unacceptable per our rules and guidelines. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:54, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support TBAN and IBAN: Really blatant transphobia. In case it gets lost in the weeds, Darwin's original comment sparking this whole thing was not just blatantly offensive but full of bullshit:
According to the sources in the article, after forcing the child she and her husband wanted to have as a boy to "behave like a boy" for 4 years, forcing him to play with cars, football and Marvel heros and even listen to heavy metal at 2-3 years old, and chasticizing him for liking "girl stuff" and throwing away all his "girl like" toys, until the poor child was proposing to die and reborn as a girl so he could play with that stuff, this openly conservative women finally gave up imposing such "boy stuff" on him and at 4 years old decided he was a girl instead, thrusting that identity on the child since then and eventually forming that NGO to "spread the word". I don't know this section very well, so maybe such troglodyte and incredibly prejudiced display of behaviour is something so bizarre it would be worth to have here, but I have to disagree.
- 1)
the poor child was proposing to die and reborn as a girl so could play with that stuff
- no source ever said this kid said that "so she could play with that stuff". The sources just say she persistently wished she'd been born a girl and said as much repeatedly. Darwin's offensive speculation as to why is not supported by any sources. Here's a quote from her mother about this nonsense:A boy who likes to play doll is not a trans girl. But a boy who besides liking to play doll, has desire to be the doll, be a girl, dress and have the look of the doll, then we are talking about a child who may have a gender issue.
- No source in the article says her mom "decided was a girl, thrusting that identity on the child since then" - On her 4th birthday, she told her
My love, from today you wear whatever clothes you want, play with whatever you want and can be whoever you want
- the mom said she'd stop pressuring her daughter to be a boy and that she could be who she wanted, and her daughter decided. - She is now 9 years old, almost 10, and happily trans. So, this is not even a case of insisting a 4-yr old can't tell they're trans, it's insisting that, after 5 years of being happily herself, it must have been forced on her.
- 1)
- The only
troglodyte and incredibly prejudiced display of behaviour
is expending this much energy attacking a fucking 9 year old and claiming her mother made her trans. I'm ashamed that PT wikipedia allowed him to do this there, and sanctioned Skyshifter for calling him on such blatant transphobia. We should have no tolerance for this bullshit whatsoever. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 22:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC)- Given that this involves cross-wiki behaviour, does anyone know if this is something which is actionable in the universal code of conduct? TarnishedPath 22:55, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support formal TBAN, indifferent to IBAN Snokalok (talk) 21:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support both TBAN and IBAN. WP:DROPTHESTICK. Ahri Boy (talk) 23:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see no evidence that any sanctions are necessary to stop disruption; indeed to the extent DarwIn was disruptive (and I am not convinced they were the problematic party), they have stopped, out of what appears to me to be a genuine understanding of how to avoid the locus of disruption. --JBL (talk) 23:22, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support. I read through this entire epic saga and left with the impression that they didn't really seem to get that the BLP and MOS issues aren't something they can just shrug their shoulders at. --Emm90 (talk) 12:58, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
Skyshifter taking matters from another Misplaced Pages to seek revenge.
| 100% affairs of other wikis. - The Bushranger One ping only 01:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC) |
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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This entire subsection is about Eduardo Gottert casting aspersions on Skyshifter and providing no diffs or evidence of this "revenge" except for statements about what is going on on another language Misplaced Pages which have no bearing on what occurs here. I'm closing this now before this WP:BOOMERANGs on to Eduardo Gottert and editors start proposing a block for personal attacks. Baseless counter attacks are generally dismissed at the English Misplaced Pages ANI. Please do not reopen this section. Liz 09:00, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. On the 29th of December, User:Skyshifter started an AN/I based on a claim that User:DarwIn, a sysop at ptwiki, was cross-wiki harrassing her. To make up those claims, she used as a single proof, of him editing on a DYK nomination here. AFAIK, DYK nominations are open for debate. She accused him of transphobia, a very harsh word, over some 5 edits on the same page, and all the other arguments in her accusation were from the ptwiki with absolutely no relation to the English Misplaced Pages, and she tried to "force" that it was a cross-wiki harrassment, when it wasn't. The sole reason for that AN/I is a beef from Skyshifter with DarwIn. But all of this happened only, and just because of her banishment for the portuguese wiki. She is the cross-wiki harrasser in this situation, as she came to a project where DarwIn hasn't got nearly as many edits as his home-wiki and most of his edits are on discussions or category/commons related, to try blocking him and thus tarnish his block log. This is all for revenge of some articles that are being debated and will be either deleted or merged with other articles, and especially over her permanent block on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, after calling the whole platform a sewage (here and in her UP), casting aspersions over other users and using ducks and meatpuppets to revert back the articles (one of her meats is currently being blocked from ptwiki too, see it here, with all the proofs). The block discussion taking place at the moment has 10 administrator votes in favour of the block, and absolutely no contrary opinion whatsoever. Despite some not-so-good arguments from DarwIn in the AN/I above, it is more than clear that the reason for the opening of the said AN/I was personal and for revenge. I'm open to any questions regarding this topic, as there is plenty of evidence to sustain my claims. All of this that she's doing would clearly fall under pt:WP:NDD, here called WP:ASPERSIONS I think, and disruptive editing/WP:POINT, and in the AN/I above she's commiting WP:BLUDGEON, repeating the eye-catching word "transphobia" over and over, without sustaining her argument accordingly, seeking to block a sysop at other 3 projects and rollbacker here, with the sole objective of tarnishing his block log, just for revenge and self-fullfillment. Eduardo G. 05:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
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Incivility and ABF in contentious topics
Hob Gadling's uncivil comments and assuming bad faith on multiple contentious talk pages is not necessarily egregious but I suppose it is problematic and chronic, consistent and ongoing. I would appreciate some assistance. Here are some diffs from the past few days:
Disparaging another editor's intellect and reasoning skills.
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Stephanie_Seneff&diff=prev&oldid=1266584883
WP:NPA
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Harald_Walach&diff=prev&oldid=1266713324
Profanity
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:James_Tour&diff=prev&oldid=1267046966
Assuming "malicious" intent; profanity; deprecating the editor
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory&diff=prev&oldid=1267154877
Unicivil
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Mick_West&diff=prev&oldid=1267158027
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267160441
Contact on user page attempted
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Hob_Gadling&diff=prev&oldid=1267160795
Assuming bad faith, accusing editor of being incompetent
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267163557Lardlegwarmers (talk) 03:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Think this calls for a fierce trout slapping and some direct words. I cannot really endorse a forced wikibreak according to WP:COOLDOWN, as this is just an angry user and frankly, I don't see direct personal attacks, I just see unfriendly behavior and prick-ish attitude, no outward disruption of the project either. Also, I have to ask for further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions, as
some diffs from the past few days
are not indicative of chronic issue. The holiday times, like Christmas, Hanukkah, and New Years' can be some of the most stressful times for people during the year. Not saying I like seeing this, but I can understand the feeling. BarntToust 04:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC)- Would I be the person to provide you with that
further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions
? I did think that it would be more than a WP:FISHSLAP, since that's forone-off instances of seemingly silly behavior
and this is more like a perpetual bad habit that needs something a bit stronger, like a stern warning. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 06:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Would I be the person to provide you with that
- @Lardlegwarmers: I don't see anything violating policy with regard to direct personal attacks or even profanity directed at a person, but rather directed to the topic in the discussion. Hob should know better, and as per BarntToust, Hob really deserves a trout to be a bit more civil and how to WP:AVOIDEDITWAR. But I would caution you about WP:BOOMERANG and the new attention to your activity and involvement this has drawn to your own edits. For example your inappropriate recently deleted user page, removing sections from other people's talk page, and it seems like you're having a problem handling a WP:DISPUTE and assuming bath faith of editors. You are not going to win a battle to get your material included by trying to report other editors in bad faith.
- Furthermore it does appear that you might be WP:FORUMSHOPPING because your attempts at WP:POVPUSH for your specific perspectives regarding Covid are meeting resistance at every turn. passively accusing editor behavior, directly accusing a specific editor bad behavior, claiming WP is political, RSN Report #1, RSN Report #2 to push for an article edit request, bringing the Covid discussion over to the teahouse, and now this ANI report. Without evaluating everything you've discussed in the past few weeks, at quick glance it appears that you're having problems understanding Misplaced Pages's policy and guidelines and are having contentious discussions with far more experienced editors. That isn't to say that we assume that they're correct and you're wrong, but when you're receiving pushback from multiple very experienced editors, I would encourage you to slow down a bit and try to fully understand the policy, and isntead of arguing to "win", you need to read about how you need to work towards WP:CONSENSUS. Because at the end of the day, without consensus, you will continue to have a lot of problems. TiggerJay (talk) 05:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I appreciate the feedback and will take it into consideration and try to refine my approach to disputes. My intention has been to address unique issues as they arise, versus shopping around the same old dispute. For example, the current ANI topic pertains specifically to some rude behavior that has been going on for quite some time and doesn't show any sign of stopping despite my attempts to resolve it directly. The editor in question actually seems pretty reasonable in their interpretation of the sources but I speculate that there might be a perception in the rank-and-file that it's OK to be pretty uncivil to editors who advocate for moving the NPOV because they're naturally afraid of putting their own head on the chopping block, so to speak. I suppose raising these issues in relevant venues is in line with guidelines. Both of those RSN discussions were related to distinct sourcing problems and resulted in useful resolutions that aligned with my concerns. The Teahouse posts about the Covid content disputes and a question regarding the politics of Misplaced Pages was in response to an administrator’s suggestion (]) that I drop by there for a discussion, and I found the feedback from experienced users there helpful. My talk page comments about user behavior were meant to discuss issues first on talk pages, per the ANI guidelines. (
All content and conduct issues should be discussed first at the talk page of the relevant article or user before requesting dispute resolution.
]) Thank you for your time and input. - Lardlegwarmers (talk) 07:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I hope the editors who read this will notice the ABF here:
trying to report other editors in bad faith
. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 21:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I appreciate the feedback and will take it into consideration and try to refine my approach to disputes. My intention has been to address unique issues as they arise, versus shopping around the same old dispute. For example, the current ANI topic pertains specifically to some rude behavior that has been going on for quite some time and doesn't show any sign of stopping despite my attempts to resolve it directly. The editor in question actually seems pretty reasonable in their interpretation of the sources but I speculate that there might be a perception in the rank-and-file that it's OK to be pretty uncivil to editors who advocate for moving the NPOV because they're naturally afraid of putting their own head on the chopping block, so to speak. I suppose raising these issues in relevant venues is in line with guidelines. Both of those RSN discussions were related to distinct sourcing problems and resulted in useful resolutions that aligned with my concerns. The Teahouse posts about the Covid content disputes and a question regarding the politics of Misplaced Pages was in response to an administrator’s suggestion (]) that I drop by there for a discussion, and I found the feedback from experienced users there helpful. My talk page comments about user behavior were meant to discuss issues first on talk pages, per the ANI guidelines. (
@Lardlegwarmers: Jay brought something to my attention with a recent version of your user page. It looks like there is large language model (ChatGPT) text about "COVID-19 Natural Immunity" copied and pasted on there. What in the cheeseballs?? What made you think hmm, let's prompt ShatGPT to churn out 700 words about this random out-of-pocket topic, and I'm gonna post this on my Misplaced Pages user page for no reason! I'm confused. This specific revision also assumes bad faith about IP editors, and here's the rich part: just as you copy-pasted text from ChatGPT about COVID to your user page, you go on to write a section that addresses use of AI. Quoting from an AI chat bot without attribution is plaigiarism.
I'm just confused with what you are doing here. So I'd like to ask you, since you are here at ANI now, what in the sam hill is going on here? If there is a reasonable explanation for this goofiness, I suggest you produce one, not from a prompt entered into ChatGPT, in your own words. BarntToust 16:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- It is an old version of their user page, and it is not plagiarism to quote from a chat bot even without attribution, so we must assume that you are attempt to detract from the OP's complaint. The issue at hand is an experienced editor who joins talk page discussions without understanding the topic at hand (which they admit in one instance ), and are frequently use derogatory language and tone towards other editors. This behavior does not seem like a new thing for them and they clearly know how to skirt the edge of what would be considered a personal attack by an admin, so this merits a formal warning. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- look, the other guy is acting pissy, and I agree with the formal warning. But @IntrepidContributor, you should familiarise yourself with WP:BOOMERANG. The long short of it if you didn't click on one of the several instances of it being linked above: If an editor attempts to bring someone else to ANI while having dirty laundry themselves, this editor will likely be found out for their dirty laundry. And that's what I'm doing right now. BarntToust 18:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I know what WP:BOOMERANG is and I telling you that you appears to be here only to detract from the complaint, and the way you are doing it by dragging up something from old user page and making claims of plagirism is highly suspect. If an admin scrolls through Hob's comments on the lab leak topic page, they will see that they are almost all designed to provoke and demean other editors. This highly inappropriate for such a difficult topic area where editors struggle to agree on NPOV. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- So far, there's agreement that this is unbecoming behaviour from Hob, and they need a WP:TROUT slap to wake them the heck up from the bad behaviour. I do not understand why the jester cannot be questioned for his goofy behaviour when he shows himself to be goofy as he tries to alert everyone of the fool's, uh, foolishness. No offence intended from this medieval analogy. BarntToust 18:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- BarntToust You're being bitey and you need to stop. WP:BOOMERANG is for when the reporter is the one causing the problems, not for airing "dirty laundry" as you yourself describe it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- well, I tend to get concerned when someone with LLM text pasted on their userpage comes up from the water. If that's considered bite-y to reiterate my concerns in intentional lighthearted analogy in order to seem less hard-headed, then I guess we're done here. @Thebiguglyalien, I invite you to weigh in on whether you think a formal warning or a trout slap is what needs to happen to Hob. BarntToust 19:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- BarntToust You're being bitey and you need to stop. WP:BOOMERANG is for when the reporter is the one causing the problems, not for airing "dirty laundry" as you yourself describe it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- So far, there's agreement that this is unbecoming behaviour from Hob, and they need a WP:TROUT slap to wake them the heck up from the bad behaviour. I do not understand why the jester cannot be questioned for his goofy behaviour when he shows himself to be goofy as he tries to alert everyone of the fool's, uh, foolishness. No offence intended from this medieval analogy. BarntToust 18:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I know what WP:BOOMERANG is and I telling you that you appears to be here only to detract from the complaint, and the way you are doing it by dragging up something from old user page and making claims of plagirism is highly suspect. If an admin scrolls through Hob's comments on the lab leak topic page, they will see that they are almost all designed to provoke and demean other editors. This highly inappropriate for such a difficult topic area where editors struggle to agree on NPOV. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- look, the other guy is acting pissy, and I agree with the formal warning. But @IntrepidContributor, you should familiarise yourself with WP:BOOMERANG. The long short of it if you didn't click on one of the several instances of it being linked above: If an editor attempts to bring someone else to ANI while having dirty laundry themselves, this editor will likely be found out for their dirty laundry. And that's what I'm doing right now. BarntToust 18:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- That content from ChatGPT was meant to go in my sandbox as experiment or for assisting with research into a future article. The LLM can generate wikitext with links to articles that already exist. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 18:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- When you get a bunch of text from a large language model, you get unsourced content. If you ask ChatGPT for info, you run the serious risk of getting false content. So, either way you take it: If you get text, then try to re-write it cohesively, and find sources for it, you are writing an article backwards and that is to be discouraged; if you are asking AI to gain an understanding on an unfamiliar topic, you are likely to run into false information. If you use AI for either of these purposes, @Lardlegwarmers, I suggest you be very judicious about how you go about "leveraging AI". There are more ways that can go wrong than I need to count on the ANI. BarntToust 18:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why are you on this administrator page making these spurious claims of plagiarism and giving this unsolicited advices? IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- @IntrepidContributor, I'm pointing out questionable content on someone else page. please look at this diff on Lardle's user page for context, in which they copied ChatGPT text without attribution, then said that using ChatGPT without attribution is plagiarism. That contradictory stuff is what I was questioning. please click on the diff for context. BarntToust 19:11, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I use it more like a (really good) search engine or a thesaurus. It can give a lot of suggestions for a human writer, but ultimately you use your own mind and RS to formulate the facts and how to present them. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 19:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- that's a good moderation mindset to use. I'm satisfied with your answer, it makes enough sense. Carry on! BarntToust 19:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks! *curtsy* Lardlegwarmers (talk) 00:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- that's a good moderation mindset to use. I'm satisfied with your answer, it makes enough sense. Carry on! BarntToust 19:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why are you on this administrator page making these spurious claims of plagiarism and giving this unsolicited advices? IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- When you get a bunch of text from a large language model, you get unsourced content. If you ask ChatGPT for info, you run the serious risk of getting false content. So, either way you take it: If you get text, then try to re-write it cohesively, and find sources for it, you are writing an article backwards and that is to be discouraged; if you are asking AI to gain an understanding on an unfamiliar topic, you are likely to run into false information. If you use AI for either of these purposes, @Lardlegwarmers, I suggest you be very judicious about how you go about "leveraging AI". There are more ways that can go wrong than I need to count on the ANI. BarntToust 18:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- The lack of civility in this contentious topic is significantly hindering editing efforts, especially since most issues concern neutrality and tone, which requires a careful and nuanced approach. IntrepidContributor (talk) 17:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I can't see anything in the original report that does anything other than show that Hob Gadling calls a thicko a thicko. What is wrong with that? Phil Bridger (talk) 18:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Phil Bridger As someone who was the recipient of one of those attacks in the example, I'm curious, what is a "thicko" and why do you believe that I am one? Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 19:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- ...according to the Cambridge English Dictionary, it means "a stupid person" - which would make it a personal attack. - The Bushranger One ping only 19:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, in British slang, "thick" = "stupid". GiantSnowman 19:54, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- ...according to the Cambridge English Dictionary, it means "a stupid person" - which would make it a personal attack. - The Bushranger One ping only 19:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Phil Bridger As someone who was the recipient of one of those attacks in the example, I'm curious, what is a "thicko" and why do you believe that I am one? Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 19:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
There is not enough context for the examples of impatience from Hob Gadling which the OP offers. For example, Lardlegwarmers, do you really expect a warm welcome for your 'attempted contact on user page' here? Or for your puritanical reproaches about HG's use of "profanity" (which normally turns out to mean using the word bullshit, which is by no means banned from Misplaced Pages, nor is its expressiveness easy to replace with something more flattering). Considering what they're replying to, this supposed "disparag of another editor's intellect and reasoning skills" seems pretty temperate. And so on. Bishonen | tålk 20:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC).
- I'm not suggesting we should wash anybody's mouth out with soap. The editor's consistent uncivil behavior is more than just the occasional salty diction here and there. I mean, look at this user page discussion where an editor is asking for a discussion on why Hob Gadling reverted his edit. It seems as if the person was trying to do it on the talk page and was ignored. Hob Gadling gruffly tells the other editor to get lost. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 01:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- My experience is that this kind of aggression is standard operating procedure for the defendant. I'd basically given up on them seeing any consequences for it - it's been going on for a long time, so I assumed this is one of the cases where editors with enough "social capital" get an exemption from CIVIL. I doubt a trout will have lasting effect. - Palpable (talk) 02:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- My experience with and attitude toward Hob is 100% the same as described here by Palpable. It goes back a while ... ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 22:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Hob Gadling failing to yield to WP:BLPRESTORE, apparently missing both the discussion and RSN link from the talk page. Asserting an unreliable source as reliable in order to describe the subject as having a ‘victim complex’. SmolBrane (talk) 23:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Note that Hob edited the talk page after re-adding this content; he should have self reverted if he missed this discussion prior. SmolBrane (talk) 00:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Propose serving of trout to both. Hob likely may have acted a hair too strongly to a source of exasperation; but not enough for any warning. Lardlegwarmers provides a large helping of such and I would suggest a boom if not for BITE. Albeit, Lardlegwarmers’ knowledge of WP is beyond the average for an editor with 5x the posts. I would suggest a non-logged warning to Lardlegwarmers on the concept of collaboration for their own good. Otherwise, we are likely to see them back here given their attitude at both this filing and at Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory. (Disclaimer, I have been involved.) O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- For context, O3000, Ret. is on the other "side" from me in a content dispute along with Hob Gadling (])Lardlegwarmers (talk) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am on the "side" of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines and am not arguing any content issues here. But I did state I was involved. O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Best not to imply that your opposition is not on the side of the rules. Given this comment and your involvement, I think you should recuse. SmolBrane (talk) 00:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Recuse
Appears that you have over 500 edits to Covid related article pages including their TPs. That's approaching 50% of your lifetime edits and 250 times the percentage of my edits in that area. Consider that in your short time here, you were blocked for egregious and repeated bad-faith assumptions. Probably should avoid that in future as this appears to be the same. Meanwhile, I stand by my post here and involved editors add value; so I will not suggest that you recuse. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- To be clear, I was suggesting recusing from proposals, not from discussion. Regards. SmolBrane (talk) 02:10, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Recuse
- Best not to imply that your opposition is not on the side of the rules. Given this comment and your involvement, I think you should recuse. SmolBrane (talk) 00:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am on the "side" of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines and am not arguing any content issues here. But I did state I was involved. O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- If you click through the diffs, you’ll notice that many other editors have received the rude comments, so this is more than a 1-on-1 scuffle with me and Hob Gadling. I stopped compiling examples after finding 9 examples of visible hostility out of their most recent dozen diffs, but like I mentioned to BarntToust above, I can go back further if you need me to, to illustrate the chronic pattern. And the handful of other editors who have spoken up here who have been aggrieved speak for themselves. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 03:31, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- For context, O3000, Ret. is on the other "side" from me in a content dispute along with Hob Gadling (])Lardlegwarmers (talk) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- As a note, Hob Gadling removed the ANI notice without comment and has not responded here. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hob Gadling is allowed to do whatever they want to their user talk page including removing notifications of discussions. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 00:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Never said they weren't. Just noting that they clearly received the notice and chose not to respond here, which is a response in and of itself. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hob Gadling is allowed to do whatever they want to their user talk page including removing notifications of discussions. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 00:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
| Extended discussion |
|---|
|
Wish Hob Gadling would not act like a profane teenager on talk page discussions and that they'd treat people without the smartass-y-ness and contempt. If they are so committed to being pissy towards other users while being shut-off in their own la-la-land, maybe they need a block until they're willing to face the music. BarntToust 01:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
|
It should be noted that Lardlegwarmers, after only truly starting editing two months ago, has been actively pushing WP:FRINGE misinformation, particularly on Covid related pages. They have actively been making claims that the scientific community is trying to cover things up, such as here, and has been using poor quality sources to try and claim that major published scientific papers on the topic are false, such as here. This entire thread just sounds like an attempt to silence another editor who has been actively dealing with fringe POV-pushers across numerous articles, such as those linked by Lardlegwarmers above. Silverseren 02:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning. And it seems that's the case here. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 02:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I haven't seen any evidence presented that would put Hob Gadling in the wrong; after reviewing the diffs I'm scratching my head and can only conclude that some of the people above have been commenting without reading them. Most of them are not even mildly uncivil. Going over them, the majority are clearly criticizing someone's argument (or the specific reasoning they presented), which is not a personal attack; and others aren't violations at all. Misplaced Pages editors are not forbidden from using profanity; the fact that Lardlegwarmers' unconvincing throw-every-unconnected-thing-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks approach here extended to the fact that their target used the word (gasp!)
bullshit
to describe an argument that did, in fact, turn out to be bullshit shows how weak it is. What's more alarming is that that was what led Lardlewarmers to try and their target on their talk page, a hamhanded effort whose sheer inappropriateness they remain sufficiently tone-deaf to that they made the mistake of bragging about it here as part of their "report". This is a straightforward WP:BOOMERANG situation. --Aquillion (talk) 02:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC)- There's only so much we can handle when someone has had five years to fulfill their promise and "turn over a new leaf" in situations like this one. Misplaced Pages would be better off if people were more willing to tell people to stop before it's too late and stop treating aggressive or uncivil behavior as a "lesser" crime. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 03:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- The reason I cited numerous diffs was to substantiate, as I said in my post, that this is a chronic and ongoing habit of rude and uncivil behavior. I posted the diff of Hob Gadling's user page not to "brag" (and I don't understand how you inferred that), but rather to show that I followed ANI procedure to address conduct disputes first on the user page and that my attempt was dismissed without Hob Gadling addressing it except to blank the comment with the explantion that I wasn't welcome on his page.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I haven't seen any evidence presented that would put Hob Gadling in the wrong; after reviewing the diffs I'm scratching my head and can only conclude that some of the people above have been commenting without reading them. Most of them are not even mildly uncivil. Going over them, the majority are clearly criticizing someone's argument (or the specific reasoning they presented), which is not a personal attack; and others aren't violations at all. Misplaced Pages editors are not forbidden from using profanity; the fact that Lardlegwarmers' unconvincing throw-every-unconnected-thing-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks approach here extended to the fact that their target used the word (gasp!)
- I am not trying to silence anyone. See above, I recommend a stern warning about consistent uncivil comments and that’s it. If Hob Gadling has something substantive to say, they can say it without demeaning the editors as if this is a combat sport instead of a discussion about articles of text. I encourage y'all to check out the discussions linked to by Silverseren. I have been careful to use sources, present my suggestions in good faith, and stay neutral in personal interactions. I am genuinely trying to find consensus. I'll mention that Silverseren is also involved in the content dispute, providing sources that myself and several other editors believe do not verify an extraordinary claim in the article. (Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory#c-Silver_seren-20241231185800-Slatersteven-20241230182700) It's getting to the point where we should do a content moderation over that, since I am sure that the sources do not verify the claim but Silverseren apparently is sure that they do. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 03:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it was probably a poor choice for you to reference Silverseren's discussion as proof of one-sided UNCIVIL behavior. There is precious little in your first response to Hob in this specific LL section that makes your point that that you're trying to find consensus, but rather demonstrates a heavy handed I'm right because I can cite more WP policies in bolded type. As the Alien above said, you
Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning.
now WP:DROPTHESTICK. TiggerJay (talk) 18:57, 6 January 2025 (UTC)- No, TiggerJay, that is false. Except for one link to Misplaced Pages:Civility, the links you mentioned are all main-space articles to describe the fallacies contained in Hob Gadling's arguments, including the use of ad hominem, as part of my intention to focus on and steer the conversation towards a discussion of the content, not attacking the person (Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory#c-Lardlegwarmers-20250103194100-Hob Gadling-20250102085800). This is the second comment you have posted in this discussion that mischaracterizes my actions and falsely accuses me of bad faith.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 19:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- For the record I do agree with you that Hob's position was absolutely a fallacy; I might assume they might have even been bating you. I also agree that you also have references to main space article, beyond the single reference to policy. I even agree that there is an probably conflict of interest with those virologists you named, but unless their editing Misplaced Pages that is irrelevant unless you're performing WP:OR or WP:SYNTH, rather we depend on WP:RS and WP:UNDUE to help navigate such things. You claimed that you intented to
steer the conversation towards a discussion of the content, not attacking the person
. However, that is not what I read in that reply. Out of the gate you're calling Hob uncivil, their arguments are false, and then lobbing further accusations. You get the discussion wrapped up arguing over who said what, and what they meant by it, and why your positions are valid and theirs are not. As for bad faith, I'll invite to other editors to comment below if they agree that I'm the one presuming bad faith towards you. Cheers! TiggerJay (talk) 00:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- Your point about RS is well-taken. However, per WP:RS, concerns about the reliability of a particular source ought to be discussed on the article talk page (Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2#c-Lardlegwarmers-20250105151700-Credibility_of_major_scientific_journals_on_Covid) first when it is only germane to the particular topic and not the publication as a whole.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 00:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think I understand what you're referring to about RS. Yes, there are times when a source is otherwise considered reliable (or even un-reliable) but consensus can be found with regards to a specific narrow aspect of it that might warrant it's inclusion or exclusions, or some variation on how it is presented or the weight afforded to it in the article. And that comes through talk page consensus as you mentioned and does not necessarily need to be unanimous. TiggerJay (talk) 01:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Your point about RS is well-taken. However, per WP:RS, concerns about the reliability of a particular source ought to be discussed on the article talk page (Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2#c-Lardlegwarmers-20250105151700-Credibility_of_major_scientific_journals_on_Covid) first when it is only germane to the particular topic and not the publication as a whole.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 00:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- For the record I do agree with you that Hob's position was absolutely a fallacy; I might assume they might have even been bating you. I also agree that you also have references to main space article, beyond the single reference to policy. I even agree that there is an probably conflict of interest with those virologists you named, but unless their editing Misplaced Pages that is irrelevant unless you're performing WP:OR or WP:SYNTH, rather we depend on WP:RS and WP:UNDUE to help navigate such things. You claimed that you intented to
- No, TiggerJay, that is false. Except for one link to Misplaced Pages:Civility, the links you mentioned are all main-space articles to describe the fallacies contained in Hob Gadling's arguments, including the use of ad hominem, as part of my intention to focus on and steer the conversation towards a discussion of the content, not attacking the person (Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory#c-Lardlegwarmers-20250103194100-Hob Gadling-20250102085800). This is the second comment you have posted in this discussion that mischaracterizes my actions and falsely accuses me of bad faith.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 19:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it was probably a poor choice for you to reference Silverseren's discussion as proof of one-sided UNCIVIL behavior. There is precious little in your first response to Hob in this specific LL section that makes your point that that you're trying to find consensus, but rather demonstrates a heavy handed I'm right because I can cite more WP policies in bolded type. As the Alien above said, you
Being entirely blunt, if we have two visions of Misplaced Pages: one in which people are occasionally rude or incivil to people who tout pseudoscience concerning major diseases and one in which pseudoscience concerning major diseases makes its way into article space then I'll gladly sign up for the rude / incivil Misplaced Pages over the pseudoscience one. This is to say that being rude is most certainly a lesser offense
. Simonm223 (talk) 20:23, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please check out the article and discussion. The lab leak theory is not pseudoscience, but rather a scientific hypothesis which important scientists have suggested is worthy of serious investigation (]). Although the evidence strongly favors a zoonotic origin, the investigation is inconclusive. In any case, I would favor a Misplaced Pages where civil discussion leads to a balanced representation of what is published in reliable sources. If your position is supported by the sources, there is no need to resort to name calling. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 20:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's pseudoscience and a pseudoscientific hypotheses burdened with quite a few racist and conspiracist adherents who want to propose China intentionally spread a plague just to weaken the United States. Preventing the promulgation of this specific pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic. Simonm223 (talk) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- What you are describing is a different idea: the COVID-19 bioweapon conspiracy theory. The lab leak hypothesis would be that the pandemic started due to researchers being accidentally infected with the virus.
the World Health Organization is recommending in its strongest terms yet that a deeper probe is required into whether a lab accident may be to blame. ]
The fact that the virus is not human-made does not necessarily exclude the possibility that the virus escaped the lab by accident (Field 2020; Guterl et al. 2020). This remains an open question; without independent and transparent investigations, it may never be either proven or disproven. The leakage of dangerous pathogens had already occurred more than once in other labs.
(]) Lardlegwarmers (talk) 21:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC)- That's not what the article is about. It is about a "conspiracy theory". But this is entirely irrelevant to this noticeboard. This noticeboard is about behavior, not content. It can be extraordinarily frustrating to those who have been building this encyclopedia for ages (20 years in the case of Hob Gadling) to deal with large numbers of brandy new editors trying to push new conspiracy theories, often politically motivated. If you wish respect, try supplying some yourself. Believe me, it will aide you in your work here. I stand by my proposal of trouting you both and an unlogged warning to you that is for your own good if you wish to continue contributing. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Beyond what @Objective3000 said, for all parties, it doesn't matter who is "right" (when it comes to the article or talk pages), that is not sufficient to be uncivil WP:BRINE. TiggerJay (talk) 01:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Indeed. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- If Hob Gadling wants to "deal with" new editors who threaten Misplaced Pages, it should not be through aggression and insulting them openly, but through quality sources and discussion. Editors who sympathize with "fringe" ideas might be more cooperative if they didn't have to defend themselves against offensive comments in response to their suggestions. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 07:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Beyond what @Objective3000 said, for all parties, it doesn't matter who is "right" (when it comes to the article or talk pages), that is not sufficient to be uncivil WP:BRINE. TiggerJay (talk) 01:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's not what the article is about. It is about a "conspiracy theory". But this is entirely irrelevant to this noticeboard. This noticeboard is about behavior, not content. It can be extraordinarily frustrating to those who have been building this encyclopedia for ages (20 years in the case of Hob Gadling) to deal with large numbers of brandy new editors trying to push new conspiracy theories, often politically motivated. If you wish respect, try supplying some yourself. Believe me, it will aide you in your work here. I stand by my proposal of trouting you both and an unlogged warning to you that is for your own good if you wish to continue contributing. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- If this "old grievance" about the FTN exemption to CIVIL really has been thoroughly hashed out, could someone link the discussion from WP:FTNCIVIL or something? Being up front about it would save time here at ANI, plus it's always heartbreaking to watch as earnest new editors learn about this the hard way. - Palpable (talk) 01:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Palpable, were you canvassed to this conversation? You seem to be a very inactive editor. I've made more IP edits in a month than you have edits in two decades. I'm curious how such a new editor found this. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 01:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am in the diffs.
- I would still like a pointer to the discussion of why FTN regulars get an exemption from CIVIL, I honestly think that should be better understood. - Palpable (talk) 02:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- They don't have an exemption, and I challenge you to provide a diff proving they do. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 03:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think he was referring to the comment by Simonm223 above:
Preventing the promulgation of this specific pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic.
] Lardlegwarmers (talk) 07:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- That diff certainly doesn't prove anyone is exempt from policy. I think it's interesting Palpable said he was following diffs instead of saying he was involved in the content dispute underlying this complaint. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 21:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think he was referring to the comment by Simonm223 above:
- They don't have an exemption, and I challenge you to provide a diff proving they do. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 03:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, they're one of the pro-fringe editors in the linked discussion. 208.87.236.180 (talk) 21:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Palpable, were you canvassed to this conversation? You seem to be a very inactive editor. I've made more IP edits in a month than you have edits in two decades. I'm curious how such a new editor found this. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 01:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- What you are describing is a different idea: the COVID-19 bioweapon conspiracy theory. The lab leak hypothesis would be that the pandemic started due to researchers being accidentally infected with the virus.
- It's pseudoscience and a pseudoscientific hypotheses burdened with quite a few racist and conspiracist adherents who want to propose China intentionally spread a plague just to weaken the United States. Preventing the promulgation of this specific pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic. Simonm223 (talk) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
| Extended discussion |
|---|
|
- Nie JB. "In the Shadow of Biological Warfare: Conspiracy Theories on the Origins of COVID-19 and Enhancing Global Governance of Biosafety as a Matter of Urgency." Journal of Bioethical Inquiry. 2020 Dec;17 https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7445685/
- https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_327#c-GPinkerton-2021-01-18T14:40:00.000Z-ScrupulousScribe-2021-01-18T14:27:00.000Z
- https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory#c-Shibbolethink-20250104081900-IntrepidContributor-20250103151400
Send to AE?
Given how long this has gone on for, may I make a suggestion? Send this to WP:AE since ANI seems incapable of resolving this, and it falls solidly into the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories. 208.87.236.180 (talk) 21:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Another claim that civility complaints are treated differently in "the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories".
- That matches my experience and I'm grateful to the people willing to say it out loud, but surely it would save a lot of drama and forum shopping if someone just wrote it down? - Palpable (talk) 22:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- The IP made no such claim? - The Bushranger One ping only 23:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I thought that was implicit in the request to move the civility complaint to a forum about fringe theories, but you're the expert. - Palpable (talk) 23:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- FYI WP:AE is arbitration enforcement, not the Fringe Theories noticeboard. Simonm223 (talk) 16:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's what I had thought, but the not logged in guy seems to be saying that a civility complaint should be moved to AE because it's a better venue for "the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories".
- It's really striking to me that the main argument here is not over whether Hob is civil, it's whether he should have to be. - Palpable (talk) 20:49, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- FYI WP:AE is arbitration enforcement, not the Fringe Theories noticeboard. Simonm223 (talk) 16:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I thought that was implicit in the request to move the civility complaint to a forum about fringe theories, but you're the expert. - Palpable (talk) 23:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- The IP made no such claim? - The Bushranger One ping only 23:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- As others have noted, being brusque with pseudoscience-pushers is an insignificant offense when compared to agenda-driven editors who are only here to advocate for a fringe topic. Esp. when they have only been editing for a handful of months. Zaathras (talk) 23:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- While I do agree that from an objective and absolute POV (e.g., of an external user evaluating Misplaced Pages) it is better to have an uncivil but pseudoscience-free Misplaced Pages than a civil but pseudoscientific Misplaced Pages, from a subjective and relative POV (e.g., of editors making internal decisions together) it is impossible to systematically abandon a relatively less important principle on the basis of a relatively more important principle without completely annihilating the less important principle. That's why wp:Being right is not enough is policy.
- Moreover, as others have also noted, because WP:CIVIL is a principle that at some point does get acted upon, we would all be better off if no one, on any side of any given debate, would minimize it. User:Barkeep49/Friends don't let friends get sanctioned. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 10:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Too much presumption of intent here with regard to 'pseudoscience-pushers'. It is easy for us to diminish our opponents in this way. Civility and NPOV are equal pillars. SmolBrane (talk) 15:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I second to motion to bring this to WP:AE. BarntToust 04:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Topic ban for Lardlegwarmers
Lardlegwarmers (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
A cursory look through this account's contributions has me convinced that they ought not to be contributing to COVID-19 Lab Leak Theory pages, widely construed. More generally, it seems they are using Misplaced Pages as a soapbox to promote a lot of what I would deem "anti-establishment" claims which necessarily run right up against the WP:MAINSTREAM remit of our encyclopedia. In fact, they are close to being a single-purpose account in this regard. Topic ban from American Politics might help reorient their problematic proclivities.
jps (talk) 21:38, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
Edit warring to prevent an RFC
@Axad12 has removed an RFC tag from Talk:Breyers#Request for comment on propylene glycol now twice within an hour.
Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment#Reasons and ways to end RfCs provides a list of circumstances under which you can stop an RFC started by someone else, and disagreeing with the question or wishing that it contained additional information is not in the list.
We have to be pretty strict about this, because an RFC is one of the few ways to attract the broader community's attention when there's an Misplaced Pages:Ownership of content problem or a Misplaced Pages:Walled garden that needs outside attention. The fact that an editor doesn't welcome outside attention sometimes indicates that there is a problem. I'm not saying that these things are happening in this case, but the rules have to be the rules for all RFCs, not just for the ones we agree with, because these things do happen in some cases. We can't really have opponents of an RFC question/proposal, no matter how well intentioned or how justified they think it is in this one case, unilaterally deciding that the rest of the community doesn't get to find out about the dispute.
I wouldn't bother with this here, except that it's already past my bedtime, so I need someone else to handle this. The proper way forward is to run the RFC, and for the loyal opposition to take the advice about how to respond that they'll find in the first two questions of the Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for comment/FAQ. See you tomorrow. WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- As previously explained elsewhere, I removed the tag because my understanding is that the serious COI issues invalidate the RfC.
- I am perfectly happy to take instruction on that point if I am incorrect but the removals were undertaken in good faith.
- The idea that I should be reported to ANI for this just because it is past someone's bedtime (and they don't have time for talk page discussion) seems to me rather an over-reaction. Axad12 (talk) 08:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Indeed, I am perfectly happy to volunteer to replace the tag if an administrator indicates that that is the appropriate course of action. Axad12 (talk) 08:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Axad12, please do not tamper with the RFC. I have already commented there again based on my previous assessment five weeks ago, and I have absolutely no conflict of interest in this matter. In my opinion, you are taking too aggressive a stance on this issue. I happen to be an administrator but I am also involved with the dispute as an ordinary editor. Cullen328 (talk) 08:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Axad12, I'd strongly suggest you return the tag. WhatamIdoing, a {{trout}} for WP:GRENADEing. - The Bushranger One ping only 08:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for both of your advice. I will shortly replace the template.
- The COI issue does not relate to Cullen, it relates to another user entirely. I would be grateful for input on the underlying COI issue, which seems to me to have been an exceptionally serious abuse. Axad12 (talk) 09:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- What? A company quite reasonably does not want to be falsely accused of adulterating their edible product with antifreeze, based on what a fringe source wrote, and you consider that
exceptionally serious abuse
? Cullen328 (talk) 09:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- What? A company quite reasonably does not want to be falsely accused of adulterating their edible product with antifreeze, based on what a fringe source wrote, and you consider that
- Indeed, I am perfectly happy to volunteer to replace the tag if an administrator indicates that that is the appropriate course of action. Axad12 (talk) 08:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, I'm referring to the series of events outlined here where a paid COI editor has a COI edit request turned down and then starts cultivating a co-operative project member to implement non-contentious COI edit requests before reintroducing the contentious COI edit request and immediately tipping off their repeatedly canvassed project member to implement that contentious request.
- I feel that that is an exceptionally serious abuse - clearly it is an attempt to distort the COI editing process by attempting to make sure that a previously co-operative project member deals with a resubmitted request rather than waiting for a random volunteer working out of the relevant queue (one of whom had previously declined the request).
- As I said above, I am quite happy to take instruction on this point - but personally I feel that what happened there was highly inappropriate. Axad12 (talk) 09:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- In other words, you want highly misleading content to remain in the article, just to make a point? Cullen328 (talk) 09:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Cullen, my post directly above is clearly about a point of process rather than a point of content.
- Even if the original COI edit request was incorrectly declined that would not justify the paid COI editor attempting to game the system to get the request through at the second time of asking. Axad12 (talk) 09:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- "Asking a second time" is not WP:Gaming the system. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Agreed, but for a COI user to attempt to influence which user will deal with the second request does constitute gaming the system. Axad12 (talk) 22:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, it doesn't. Read the guideline instead of guessing about its contents from the WP:UPPERCASE. See, e.g., An editor gaming the system is seeking to use policy in bad faith, by finding within its wording some apparent justification for disruptive actions and stances that policy is clearly not at all intended to support. Asking an individual to help has nothing to do with finding wording in a policy to justifying disruptive actions or stances that are not intended in that policy.
- I also direct your attention to the item that says Gaming the system may include...Filibustering the consensus-building process. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was using the phrase 'gaming the system' in it's natural application (not specifically referring to WP:GAMINGTHESYSTEM, which I didn't know existed until you linked to it above). Clearly the COI user was attempting to distort the COI edit request process in some way - whether one refers to what they were doing as 'gaming the system' or some other similar phrase is neither here nor there. Axad12 (talk) 23:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Agreed, but for a COI user to attempt to influence which user will deal with the second request does constitute gaming the system. Axad12 (talk) 22:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- "Asking a second time" is not WP:Gaming the system. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also worth noting that ever since the original COI edit request back in August the clear talk page consensus has been that the material should remain within the article and is not
highly misleading
. - I've been part of that consensus position since approx October/November. Since that time the user who opened the RfC has repeatedly been opening new threads, continually trying to re-address a subject where they are repeatedly in the minority and presumably hoping that those who previously opposed them do not turn up to oppose them again. Axad12 (talk) 10:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- In other words, you want highly misleading content to remain in the article, just to make a point? Cullen328 (talk) 09:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe we should hold an RFC on whether the RFC tag should be there? Phil Bridger (talk) 09:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Right, I've had breakfast now so am in a position to make a more serious reply. This is a content issue (on which I hold, as yet, no opinion). On this page we often tell editors that the way to settle a content issue that hasn't been settled by more informal methods is by holding an RFC. Axad12, you should express your opinion as part of the RFC, not oppose holding it. By your behaviour you are turning people against you who might have supported you. Phil Bridger (talk) 10:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've already said that I'd be happy to replace the tag if instructed to do so, and upon being instructed to do so I immediately replaced it. As far as I can see that issue is now resolved.
- I've asked for comment on the underlying COI issue, which is not a content issue. Axad12 (talk) 11:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- RFCs can handle COI issues. In fact, when WP:COIN can't resolve a dispute, they sometimes host an RFC to settle it. The nice thing about an RFC in such situations is that if it closes with an outcome like "The consensus is stick it to these fully policy-compliant, completely disclosed paid editors by making sure that this article implies the company's product was adulterated with a poisonous industrial chemical, just because we found one fad diet book that used this language, because it's really unreasonable of them to not want sensationalist and derogatory information in our article about their product" then you can generally be sure that the result will stick for at least 6 months and usually longer.
- But you've got to get that consensus first, and I'm not sure you will. For one thing, it's been my not-inconsiderable experience that when someone objects to holding an RFC because the question is biased, that's a fairly reliable sign that they expect the RFC result to not match their preference. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- My concern (rightly or wrongly) was simply that there was a COI element to the request which had not been disclosed. I swiftly requested clarification on that point and upon receiving that clarification I immediately reverted myself.
- It isn't really relevant here but actually I didn't expect the RfC to develop contrary to my preference. That was because the previous 4 months had indicated a consistent consensus opposing what the instigator of the RfC was proposing. In fact, to be perfectly honest, I don't actually have a particularly strong preference one way or the other on the issue at stake - I've simply consistently observed during November and December that the consensus was against Zefr, which seemed to me to be a simple matter of fact based on the various talk page threads from August to December. Axad12 (talk) 23:38, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- On matters concerning the Breyers article, Axad12 has been an uncollaborative, disruptive, and hostile editor tag-teamed with Graywalls, who is the main proponent over months of using the slur, "antifreeze", to describe a minor GRAS ingredient that is the subject of the current RfC. Both users have ignored requests on the talk page to collaborate for a factual, well-sourced article. Both users refused collaboration on the Breyers article content at DRN.
Having never contributed a sentence or source to the Breyers article, Axad12 has blatantly reverted simple, sourced edits claiming a false consensus which has no good source to support the propylene glycol/"antifreeze" claim and no evidence of consensus input by other editors over the last many weeks. An evolving consensus on the RfC is to exclude mention of propylene glycol as undue.
Scientific and legal literature concerning propylene glycol (article link) placed on the talk page have been ignored by both users, without attempts to discuss or apply what any objective editor reading the sources would agree are authoritative.
Proposal: Because of Axad12's hostile attempt to revert a legitimate RfC, tag-team behavior with Graywalls on the Breyers article edits, canvassing each other on its talk page, and here, as another example, Axad12 and Graywalls should be A-banned from the Breyers article and its talk page.
Support. Zefr (talk) 21:43, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Strike as withdrawn for Axad12 ABAN to concur with Cullen328 and the oppose decisions below.
- Graywalls is a separate case remaining undecided here. Over the 2024 article and talk page history at Breyers, this user was the main purveyor of disinformation, and has not acknowledged his talk page hostility and errors of judgment, despite abundant presentation of facts, sources, explanations, and challenges for information below. Graywalls should commit to abstain from editing the Breyers article for a given period, as Axad has done. Zefr (talk) 00:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Zefr:, your domineering and territoriality to that article is a big part of escalation and if anyone, it should be you who should refrain from it. Blatantly disregarding consensus and going so far as saying
Statements of facts supported by reliable sources do not need talk page consensus.
as done in here which goes to show you feel you're above consensus. You weren't persuaded until you were corrected by two administrors Aoidh and Philknight on the matter on the belief you're entitled to insert certain things against consensus. You also were blocked for the fifth time for edit warring in that article, with previous ones being at different articles with dispute with other editors, which shows your lack of respect for community decision making. Graywalls (talk) 17:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC)- Well, your concept of what was a false consensus has been dismissed by the RfC result, so you should move on from this bitterness and distortion of truth. In reply to Aoidh and Philknight at the Breyers talk page, I stated in my next comment, "Yes, a key word unintentionally omitted in my response concerning statements and sources was "verifiable". As there are few watchers/editors of the Breyers article (62 as of today, probably many from Unilever who do not edit), I provided statements of facts verified by reliable sources, whereas this simple practice appears to not be in your editing toolkit.
- The obligation remaining with you in this discussion is to respond to Cullen's 2-paragraph summary of your behavior below in the section, The actual content that led to this dispute. Let's have your response to that, and your pledge to abstain from editing the Breyers article - you did say on the talk page on 29 Nov that you would "delegate the actual editing to someone else." I think your defiance to respond to challenges in this discussion section affirms my recommendation that you are ABANNED from the Breyers article and IBANNED from attacking me because you are unable to face the facts. Zefr (talk) 18:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- It was a no commitment suggestion that someone, meaning neither YOU or I. Not that Zefr continue editing and not I. Your controlling, WP:OWN approach was a significant portion of the problem. Additionally, you proposed administrative sanctions against me, but did not tell me about it as required. I only figured out after someone told me about it on my talk page. Why did you do that? Graywalls (talk) 19:36, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- You had already been notified of the problem you caused at the Breyers article in this talk edit on 5 Jan. Now, you are engaged in conspicuous deflection to avoid answering the Cullen328 paragraphs and the several requests for you to explain and own up to your disruptive behavior and non-collaboration. Regarding OWN, there are few editors at Breyers. I countered your attempts to slander the article with the "antifreeze" term and bogus diet book references by applying verifiable facts and sources.
- OWN:"Being the primary or sole editor of an article does not constitute ownership, provided that contributions and input from fellow editors are not ignored or immediately disregarded. Editors familiar with the topic and in possession of relevant reliable sources may have watchlisted such articles and may discuss or amend others' edits. This too does not equal ownership, provided it does not marginalise the valid opinions of others and is adequately justified." If you had offered valid content and sources, I would have collaborated.
- I'm sure editors have seen enough of your personal grievances expressed here. Please stop. I'm not returning unless an exception occurs. Zefr (talk) 20:41, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- It was a no commitment suggestion that someone, meaning neither YOU or I. Not that Zefr continue editing and not I. Your controlling, WP:OWN approach was a significant portion of the problem. Additionally, you proposed administrative sanctions against me, but did not tell me about it as required. I only figured out after someone told me about it on my talk page. Why did you do that? Graywalls (talk) 19:36, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- You need to notify Graywalls of this discussion. I have done so for you. In the future, remember to do so yourself. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose: I have reverted Zefr on 3 occasions on the Breyers article over the last few months. That was because the edits they had made were, at that time, contrary to talk page consensus. The fact that I had not contributed to the article is neither here nor there in that regard.
- I have not
ignored requests on the talk page to collaborate
, I have simply objected to Zefr's repeated attempts over a 3 month period to re-open a discussion where the consensus has always been against them. - Six different users have previously objected to the changes Zefr has been trying to make and that was clearly a majority of those who commented between August and December 2024.
- I accept that the current RfC is going Zefr's way, however that fact should not be used to reinterpret events over the last 4 months where Zefr has historically been in a small minority insufficient to claim a consensus in favour of the changes they wished to make.
- Also, the idea that I made a
hostile attempt to revert a legitimate RfC
is untrue. As I have pointed out above, my actions were in good faith and it can be seen that I immediately volunteered to revert my removal of the template if I received instruction from an admin to that effect. - I cannot see that I was ever canvassed to appear at the Breyers talk page, I arrived there entirely independently back in November having been aware of the ongoing situation re: the various COI edit requests because the COI edit request queue is the volunteer queue that I spend most of my time here working from. I've probably read pretty much every COI edit request that has been made on Misplaced Pages over the last 6 to 12 months and there are a small number of talk pages that I look at from time to time.
- Graywalls and I work on similar cases and sometimes we find ourselves working alongside each other, especially if material has been discussed at WP:COIN, but occasionally ending up in the same place and on the same side of an argument does not entail tagteaming. Axad12 (talk) 22:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Comment I was the one who suggested RfC in the first place. here, because I felt it was not a productive disagreement anymore. Leading up to the RfC, there was rough talk page consensus to include a mention pf propylene glycol, but if consensus in RfC determines that it should be left out, I have no intention of fighting it. Someone raised a concern there was only one source, so I added another source. Other than this, I've not really touched contentious parts of this article recently. I'm not sure why Axad12 removed the RfC and I can't speak for their actions, but the accusation of Tagteam is unwarranted. I've taken deferent steps to not continue to engage in back and forth edit warring and I'd like to believe that I'm approaching this the correct way. I do want to bring up concerns about Zefr's civility though. Please see User_talk:DMacks#Breyers_disruptive_editing for some concerns I raised. I also find leaving snarky comment about being a PhD student who disagreed on contents troubling Special:Diff/1261441062. @Aoidh: also felt Zefr was "weaponing" claims of edit warring to restore their "preferred version" earlier on in the dispute. Please see Special:Diff/1257252695 Graywalls (talk) 02:34, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Graywalls, I think you were correct to recommend an RFC. Hopefully the RFC will reach a consensus. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd just like to echo that sentiment. I'm all in favour of consensus.
- My position on this article hasn't been motivated by a partisan view on Propylene Glycol but has simply been in relation to serving the consensus position as it stood at the time. That is the approach I hope I adopt on all Misplaced Pages articles. If the consensus alters on this article (as seems likely) then I'll adopt the same approach in relation to serving the new consensus.
- My primary area of interest on this website is COI issues. I'm simply not interested in content disputes or in pushing any kind of POV on Misplaced Pages. I'm not the sort of user who flagrantly disregards a newly emerging consensus by editing contrary to the outcome of an RfC.
- I'd welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that going forwards (i.e. without an article ban). Axad12 (talk) 06:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- The mention by Graywalls for an RfC on 27 Dec had no influence on the one existing. As an uncomplicated process, an editor truly sincere in having community input would have posed a simple objective question. Graywalls, why didn't you take 5 minutes and create the RfC question you wanted? What would have been your RfC question?
- Specifically for propylene glycol (you are still defending its use in the article by adding another garbage source yesterday - see comments about this book in the RfC):
what do you believe propylene glycol does in a frozen dessert and what would you prefer the article to say about propylene glycol? I have asked for this clarification on the talk page many times and in the DRN, but you ignored the opportunity to collaborate and clarify.
- Have you read the sources in this talk page topic?
- Your reverts in article history and combative talk page behavior over months revealed a persistent intent to disparage the Breyers article, focus on the "antifreeze" slur (mainly promoting this source), and restore a skeletal version having no sources more recent than 2018 here, after tag-teaming with Axad12 to do your bidding on 17 Nov. That version also has misinformation under the section 'Ice cream', falsely stating that Breyers changed their ice cream ingredients by using other additives, which in fact, were used to evolve a new category of frozen desserts not intended to be ice cream. I believe you know this, but you and Axad12 persisted to favor misinformation for the article.
- The RfC I provided came from steps in the lead of WP:RFC: 1) generally poor talk page progress, where one editor seeking facts verified by current sources was opposed by Graywalls, Adax12, and NutmegCoffeeTea, all defending a version including "antifreeze"; 2) an RSN post here where Graywalls argued that a web link by the Seattle PI made the Motley Fool article an RS; 3) initiate DRN for which Graywalls, Axad12, and NutmegCoffeeTea abstained from collaboration to improve the article; 4) providing a science- and law-based talk page topic on 19 Dec, which appears to be willfully ignored by Axad12 and Graywalls, who responded only with hostility and defiance against the facts; 5) seeking third opinions from admins, first by BD2412 (talk page on 29-30 Nov) and by DMacks on 27 Dec, resulting in verbose trolling by these two users. Axad12's response on 27 Dec was to revert constructive edits and tag-team with Graywalls.
- Axad12 and Graywalls should be ABANNED from the Breyers article for exhibiting 1) hostility on the talk page to good faith proposals for making the article better, and 2) persistence to perpetuate misinformation on propylene glycol. Simply, what history shows that either editor has tried to improve the Breyers article? Both users meet most of the definitions of WP:NOTHERE for the article, its talk page, and the RfC. Zefr (talk) 18:17, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Zefr, I've already indicated on several occasions that I welcome and support the developing new consensus. Graywalls has made a similar comment below. That being the case, I don't really see what purpose an article ban would be intended to serve.
- Admittedly there has been some quite heated disagreement over recent months, but it seems that we all now have the robust talkpage consensus that we were hoping for in one way or another and that all three of us are happy to move forward in support of that consensus.
- You were clearly in the minority for quite a long time and I can appreciate that you found that experience frustrating. However, to continue to make allegations above of bad faith, trolling, tagteaming, etc. about those who constituted the valid majority for several months is just an attempt to perpetuate strife on an issue which is now, as far as I can see, satisfactorily resolved. Axad12 (talk) 19:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Graywalls, I think you were correct to recommend an RFC. Hopefully the RFC will reach a consensus. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Filed under: sometimes you hurt articles by treating COI editors as the enemy. The problem here is two users who should really know better edit-warring over the course of months to reinstate TikTok diet influencer silliness into a Misplaced Pages article, repeatedly reinstating WP:PROFRINGE content (implicitly, if not explicitly). We currently treat a little "avoid antifreeze" bubble in a diet book (which includes Breyers in a list of brands) and a book published by one of RFK Jr's antivax publishers as WP:DUE for including the insinuation that an FDA-approved and much-conspiratorialized additive is harmful. They've been repeatedly removed, but two editors keep putting them back, whether because of a misunderstanding of WP:MEDRS/WP:FRINGE or in pursuit of COI purification. — Rhododendrites \\ 13:24, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I take your point but I think you're misjudging the situation somewhat. Prior to the opening of the current RfC it was approximately 6 or 7 users in favour of inclusion vs 3 or 4 favouring exclusion. I only reverted the attempts at exclusion because those attempts were contrary to the talk page consensus.
- I'm perfectly open to the suggestion that that consensus position was wrong but the simple fact of the matter was that there was at that time no consensus in favour of exclusion.
- It has only been in the last couple of days that the requesting editor has been able to demonstrate a consensus in favour of exclusion. And that's great, I have no problem with that at all. In fact I welcome it.
- My understanding is that editors wishing to make changes to article text should not do so if there is a consensus against what they are trying to do, and that under such circumstances an edit can be (indeed should be) reverted. If I'm mistaken on that score then I'm perfectly happy to take instruction. However, I really want to stress that my actions were based primarily upon that reasoning and were made in good faith. Axad12 (talk) 14:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Axad12, you should not revert something because other editors want it to be reverted. You should only make content changes that you personally support. This is necessary for BRD to work. See WP:BRDREVERT for an explanation of why. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:25, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rhododendrites:, the antifreeze matter is WP:DEADHORSE since I believe everyone's pretty much agreed it doesn't need to be in there. Zefr has taken issues with me, Axad12, NutMegCoffee and possibly some others. They've tried to get the article "set in place" to their preferred version, but that was declined admin Daniel Case who determined it to be content dispute Special:Diff/1260192461. Zefr inferring alleging I was
"uncooperative"not collaborating/cooperating in the way that he was hoping in DR, but I don't believe that to be so. There was nothing intentional on my part to not cooperate. I'll see if @Robert McClenon: would like to share their observation on that since they closed the dispute. - https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Breyers/Archive_2#c-Rusalkii-20240814014600-Inkian_Jason-20240801145900 here's another uninvolved editoring erring on the side of inclusion. A one sentence mention of propylene glycol isn't something that is out of line and as others have mentioned, it falls under contents dispute and thus the choice to leave in/out rests on consensus. Reading through the current plus the archived discussions, up until the RfC, the general consensus is in support of having PG mention and Zefr's preferred version shouldn't trump consensus. As I mentioned, if consensus changes with the RfC, I'm not opposed to going with that. Graywalls (talk) 17:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC) (adjusted Graywalls (talk) 13:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC))
- For the record, I never stated the word "uncooperative" at DRN or the Breyers talk page, but rather "non-collaborative", as discussed in the thread with Robert McClenon below.
- "Set in place to their preferred version" and "Zefr's preferred version shouldn't trump consensus" should be translated to using "facts verified by reliable sources", which is the simple goal for the Breyers article that Graywalls has obstructed over months.
- It's incredible that Graywalls says even today above, knowing the comments on the RfC and months of being presented with facts and sources about why propylene glycol is safely used in thousands of manufactured foods: "A one sentence mention of propylene glycol isn't something that is out of line and as others have mentioned, it falls under contents dispute and thus the choice to leave in/out rests on consensus."
- Here's your chance to tell everyone:
- Why do you feel propylene glycol was used in Breyers frozen desserts (in 2013, not since)? What concern do you have about it, and what government or scientific source says it's unsafe in the amounts regulated by federal laws? Give a sentence here that you think meets consensus and uses a reliable source. Zefr (talk) 01:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You're right, you did not use that specific word. I've corrected my response due to wording. Graywalls (talk) 13:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
A Non-Mediator's Statement
I am not entirely sure why User:Graywalls has pinged me about this dispute, saying that I "closed this dispute". The accuracy of the statement that I "closed this dispute" depends on what is meant by "this dispute".
I closed the DRN thread, Misplaced Pages:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_252#Breyers, on 12 December. I obviously didn't resolve a dispute that has been continuing for another three weeks, and the claim that I closed the dispute looks to me like an attempt to confuse the jury. User:Zefr had opened the DRN thread on 3 December, complaining about the insertion of the word antifreeze and of the mention of propylene glycol. I was not entirely sure beyond the mention of antifreeze what the issues were. There were questions about what the procedure was for handling a one-against-many dispute; I think that Zefr was said to be the one. There was a long question that may have been about whether DRN is voluntary; DRN is voluntary. Then Zefr said that the case could be withdrawn because no one else was commenting. The disputants other than Zefr never did say exactly what the article content issues were, perhaps because they didn't want to discuss article content, and were not required to discuss article content. If anyone is implying that I resolved or settled anything, I have no idea what it was.
I see that the dispute either was continuing in other forums for three weeks, or has reopened. I see that User:Axad12 edit-warred to prevent an RFC from running, making vague but noisy statements about conflict of interest. I don't know who is said to be working for Unilever or for anyone else. It is clear that this dispute is longer on antagonism than on clarity. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Robert McClenon:, I pinged you, because I felt you'd be a good commentator to evaluate whether you also felt I was "not cooperative" in the process as Zefr says. I tried to participate, but it got closed shortly after I posted a comment in it. Graywalls (talk) 22:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Was that purposely mis-stated to be provocative and mislead the discussion here?
- I said you were non-collaborative, which describes your behavior throughout your editing history on the Breyers article, its talk page, and the DRN. You refused collaboration at DRN, which is the whole point of the process. DRN FAQ: "refusing participation can be perceived as a refusal to collaborate, and is not conducive to consensus-building."
- You were notified about the DRN on your talk page on 3 Dec, and you posted a general notice about it on the Breyers talk page on 6 Dec, so you were aware of the process, but ignored it. Meanwhile, your editing history over 6-12 Dec shows dozens of edits, including many on the Breyers talk page.
- You made no attempt to collaborate at DRN, posting only one off-topic comment on 12 Dec.
- I requested closure of the DRN on 12 Dec due to non-participation by you and the others. On 13 Dec, I notified the Breyers talk page of the DRN closure. cc: Robert McClenon. Zefr (talk) 00:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Zefr:, As been said to you by others, participation is not mandatory. Other editors are not required to and you shouldn't reasonably expect them to prioritize their real life schedule or their Misplaced Pages time on dispute that you runs on your own schedule to your DRN you started around your own schedule on your own terms. I have initially waited to give others time to comment as their time allows. I'm also not particularly fond of your berating, incivil, bad faith assuming comments directed at myself, as well as a few other editors and it's exhausting discussing with you, so I'm not feeling particularly compelled to give your matters priority in my Misplaced Pages time. Graywalls (talk) 06:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
A Possibly Requested Detail
Okay. If the question is specifically whether User:Graywalls was uncooperative at DRN, then I can state that they were not uncooperative and did not obstruct or disrupt DRN. Graywalls took very little part in the DRN proceeding before I closed it. They were not required to take part, although they say that they would have made a statement if the case had stayed open a little longer. The antagonism that I saw was between User:Zefr and User:Axad12, and I collapsed an exchange between them. I did not read what I am told were long previous discussions, because I expect the disputants at DRN to begin by telling me concisely what each of them wants to change in the article (or what they want to leave the same that another editor wants to change). Graywalls was not uncooperative at DRN. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay. User:Zefr is making a slightly different statement, that User:Graywalls did not collaborate at DRN. That is correct. And I noted above that their mention that I had closed the dispute depended on what was meant by the "dispute". and looked like an attempt to confuse the jury. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Robert McClenon Zefr did not use the word uncooperative although did say uncollaborative and I used the two interchangeably in my ping. I did participate in it Special:Diff/1262763079. I haven't participated in DRN until that point, so I wasn't really sure how it worked. Graywalls (talk) 13:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
The actual content that led to this dispute
Two month ago, Breyers included this shockingly bad content: As of 2014, some flavors of Breyer's ice cream contains propylene glycol as an additive. Propylene glycol is a chemical commonly used in a car antifreeze and it is clear fluid made by "treating propylene with chlorinated water to form the chlorohydrin, which is then converted to the glycol, an alcohol, by treating it with a sodium carbonate solution." Propylene glycol is formulated into Breyer's fat-free and Carb Smart ice cream to make it easier to scoop.
The notion that an article about an ice cream company should include a detailed description of how a Generally recognized as safe food additive is manufactured is bizarre enough, as is the cherrypicked and glaringly misleading assertion about "antifreeze", but the reference used to support the Breyers claim was a book called Eat It to Beat It!: Banish Belly Fat-and Take Back Your Health-While Eating the Brand-Name Foods You Love! written by a quack/crank diet profiteer named David Zinczenko. I invite any editor to take a search engine look at Zinczenko's body of work, and come away with the conclusion that his writings are anything other than fringe and unreliable. Despite the glaringly obviously non-neutral and tendentious problems with this shockingly bad content, editors including most prominently Graywalls and Axad12 dug in their heels, fighting a reargard action for nearly two months, determined to make this mundane routine ice cream company look as bad as possible. Their self-justification seems to be that big bad corporations have no right whatsover to try to remove atrociously bad content about their products from Misplaced Pages, and that any editor who tries to assist the evil corporation is also evil by association. I am not an advocate for corporations per se, but I am an advocate for corporations being treated neutrally like all other topics, rather with disdain and contempt, which was the case here, as I see it. I do not know what the best outcome is here, but I certainly encourage these two editors to refrain from any other unjustified and poorly referenced anti-corporate diatribes that go on for months on end. Cullen328 (talk) 07:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- A striking and shocking aspect of this sordid situation is that two editors, Graywalls and Axad12 were able to concoct a false "consensus" supporting various versions of this garbage content. And then when another editor tried to start a RFC about the appallingly bad content, Axad12 tried over and over and over again to stop the RFC and defend the atrocious content rather than correcting it, aided and abetted by Graywalls. When the RFC actually went live, it soon became clear that many editors agreed that the content these two editors advocated for was utterly inappropriate. Cullen328 (talk) 08:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Cullen,
- As per my comments above, my motivation was simply in reflecting the consensus on the talk page at the time. I did not
concoct
that consensus, at least 5 users other than me were against excluding the material. - I have never had any particularly strong opinion one way or the other on the content issue and I try as best as I can not to get involved in content disputes. I have not
dug in heels
or attempted to promote any kind of fringe opinion and nor have I engaged inanti-corporate diatribes that go on for months on end
. - Similarly I do not hold the view that
any editor who tries to assist the evil corporation is also evil by association
, or any opinion even vaguely resembling that view. On the contrary, I have often implemented COI edit requests on behalf of corporations or have pointed out to corporate employees how such requests would need to be amended to conform with sourcing or other requirements. Repeatedly engaging in that activity would presumably make me veryevil
indeed, in my own eyes, if I held the view that you attribute to me. - I reverted the Breyer edits in good faith because there was no consensus in favour of them. If I was incorrect on a point of policy in that regard then fair enough, however please do not attempt to attribute to me sentiments which I do not harbour.
- Also, I did not attempt to stop the RfC
over and over and over again
. I removed the tag twice, then requested guidance from administrators and immediately replaced the tag when requested to do so. The tag was removed, in all, for a matter of minutes and had no meaningful impact on the progress of the RfC. I have accepted elsewhere that I now appreciate that the basis on which I removed the tag was inappropriate. I have also stated thatFrom my standpoint wasn't a process that I was familiar with - but I can see from the many excellent contributions here that this is the best way of resolving content disputes
. I have also stated that I welcome and support the new consensus. Axad12 (talk) 08:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- Try as you will to justify your participation in this debacle , Axad12, but any uninvolved editor can review the edit histories and see that you fought very hard, over and over again for months, to keep garbage content in the encyclopedia just to stick it to a corporation that you obviously dislike because they tried to correct egregious errors about their products. Cullen328 (talk) 08:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Can you provide a diff there to indicate that I
obviously dislike
Breyers or (their parent company) Unilever, or indeed that I consider either to beevil
? - To the best of my recollection, I've only ever made 3 mainspace edits to the Breyers article - each time on the stated basis in the edit summary that the edit I was reverting was contrary to consensus.
- I've re-read the extensive talk page discussions in recent days and I can only see that I ever commented on the COI angle and the nature of the consensus. Those comments were based on my understanding of policy at the time. I do not see
anti-corporate diatribes
or evidence that Iobviously dislike
Breyers or Unilever. - Indeed, I do not hold any particularly strong views on Breyers, Unilever or any other corporations. Axad12 (talk) 09:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- As I said, Axad12, all any uninvolved editor needs to do is review your 37 edits to Talk: Breyers to see how determined you have been over the last two months to maintain various versions of this biased non-neutral content, and how enthusiastic you have been in denouncing the various editors who have been calling for neutrality. Your consistent theme has been that a corporation does not deserve neutrality, because a bogus consensus has been conjured up. Cullen328 (talk) 09:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- My activity on that talk page has solely been in relation to pointing out what I felt (rightly or wrongly) was a valid COI concern and observing that from Aug to Dec there has never been a consensus in favour of exclusion.
- Anything beyond that is simply you attributing motives that do not exist.
- I have never stated or implied that
a corporation does not deserve neutrality
and nor do I hold such a view. - I happily admit that I'm quite animated and enthusiastic about COI issues and reverting edits which appear to be contrary to consensus. With the benefit of hindsight probably I should have let go of those issues at an earlier stage and vacated the field for those who actually had an appetite to argue on content grounds.
- I'd also point out that for a significant part of the last 2 months I had actually unsubscribed from the relevant talkpage threads and only ended up getting involved again due to being summoned to the Dispute Resolution thread. If I had been
determined over the last two months to maintain various versions of biased non-neutral content
then hopefully it stands to reason that I would not have unsubscribed in that way - thus resulting in a situation where I was actually completely unaware of much of the talkpage and mainspace activity over the period that you refer to. Axad12 (talk) 10:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- I find the defense of your actions very weak. You've said several times that your
motivation was simply in reflecting the consensus on the talk page at the time
. You are also obligated to actually look at the disputed content and the sources supporting it. Why didn't you do that? Why were you unable to see what multiple editors in the RfC are commenting about? You shouldn't just blindly revert content like that, without taking a look for yourself to see if the complaint about the disputed content has any merit, like it being reliably sourced and due for inclusion. Isaidnoway (talk) 10:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- That's a very fair question.
- The answer is that I was inclined to believe the opinions of editors much more experienced than myself who were against exclusion, particularly the editor who turned down the original COI edit request (whose work on COI edit requests I have the greatest of respect for).
- User Whatamidoing has already pointed out above that my error lay in accepting those users' opinions. I agree with Whatamidoing's observation there.
- I can only say that what I did was done in good faith based on my understanding of policy at the time. I now know where I erred (in several different ways) and I am glad to have received instruction in that regard.
- However, I really cannot accept the repeated suggestion that I vindictively masterminded a long anti-corporate campaign to keep bad material in an article. That suggestion is fundamentally not true. Axad12 (talk) 10:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Policy at the time, and the policy now, as it always has been, when you make an edit, you are responsible for that edit. So by reverting the content back into the article, you were then responsible for that edit, and also partly to blame for this garbage content being kept in the article when it clearly shouldn't have been. Isaidnoway (talk) 11:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, I entirely accept that.
- For clarity, when I said
my understanding of policy at the time
I meant my understanding of policy at the time - I wasn't trying to suggest that the policy has changed since I made those edits. - What I am saying is that those edits were not made with malice, they were made because I accepted the opinions of other users more experienced than myself, opinions which I now know that I ought to have questioned. Axad12 (talk) 11:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You demonstrated poor judgement. Will you stay away from that article? — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 11:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- As I said earlier in this thread, I am 100% supportive of the new consensus in favour of excluding the previously disputed material.
- Virtually all of my time on Misplaced Pages is spent at COIN and dealing with COI edit requests. I'm not the sort of user who spends their time edit warring over POV fringe material and generally being disruptive.
- So, the last thing I would ever do is attempt to reinstall material where a very robust consensus at RfC has indicated that it should be excluded.
- I would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that I can be trusted in that regard. Axad12 (talk) 12:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Judgement isn't about following consensus, it’s about making considered decisions. — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 14:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, quite so. I have acknowledged my error in that regard in my first response to Isaidnoway, above, re: the very useful input I received from Whatamidoing. Axad12 (talk) 17:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Axad, if I read what you wrote correctly, and please correct me if I misunderstand: I will stay away from that article because I support the current consensus. My concern is what if consensus was to shift on that article? TiggerJay (talk) 17:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Apologies if my earlier response was unclear. My point was that I have absolutely no intention of edit warring over the previously disputed material (or any other material) so I don't see what purpose it would serve to ban me from the article.
- I have only ever made (to the best of my knowledge) 3 previous edits to the article (1 in November and 2 in December?). These were all on the basis of a misunderstanding on a point of policy which has been pointed out to me above and which I have happily acknowledged and accepted. The issue at stake was not that I harbour any partisan view in relation to the content dispute, it was that I edited to reflect the views of other editors whose opinions I respected on the matter in question.
- I do not see any reason for the community to anticipate that I would made a similar misunderstanding of policy going forwards.
- Hopefully this clarifies... Axad12 (talk) 17:39, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Judgement isn't about following consensus, it’s about making considered decisions. — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 14:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You demonstrated poor judgement. Will you stay away from that article? — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 11:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Policy at the time, and the policy now, as it always has been, when you make an edit, you are responsible for that edit. So by reverting the content back into the article, you were then responsible for that edit, and also partly to blame for this garbage content being kept in the article when it clearly shouldn't have been. Isaidnoway (talk) 11:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I find the defense of your actions very weak. You've said several times that your
- As I said, Axad12, all any uninvolved editor needs to do is review your 37 edits to Talk: Breyers to see how determined you have been over the last two months to maintain various versions of this biased non-neutral content, and how enthusiastic you have been in denouncing the various editors who have been calling for neutrality. Your consistent theme has been that a corporation does not deserve neutrality, because a bogus consensus has been conjured up. Cullen328 (talk) 09:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Can you provide a diff there to indicate that I
- Try as you will to justify your participation in this debacle , Axad12, but any uninvolved editor can review the edit histories and see that you fought very hard, over and over again for months, to keep garbage content in the encyclopedia just to stick it to a corporation that you obviously dislike because they tried to correct egregious errors about their products. Cullen328 (talk) 08:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've been expecting something to happen around User:Axad12, whom I ran into several months ago during a dispute at COIN. What I noticed back in October was that Axad12 seemed to be clerking the noticeboard, making prosecutorial noises, and sometimes unsupported accusations (ex:
...the existence of COI seems quite clear...
1,...in relation to your undeclared conflict of interest...
2,As I said, the fact that there was a significant undeclared conflict of interest in relation to editing on Paralympic Australia-related articles was demonstrated some years ago.
3) towards what they thought of as COI editors (this was about whether User:Hawkeye7 had failed to adequately announce their conflict with Paralympic Australia, where they've been openly helping as a volunteer on our community's behalf for many years, and after they had just made an almost invisible contribution on the Signpost). I often find such clerking of noticeboards by relatively unseasoned users to be troublesome; Axad12 has 490 edits at COIN, about 12% of their total 3801 edits (but about a third of the roughly 1500 edits total on COIN since September). If you use a hammer all day, you might begin to think that all objects are potentially nails. BusterD (talk) 12:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- Rereading the discussion this morning 90 days later, it reads worse than I made it sound above. An uninvolved admin tried to close the thread and chastised Axad12 in that close. The OP asked the thread closure be reversed, so the close comments were moved down to the end of the thread. BusterD (talk) 14:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it would be a good idea for Axad12 to take a break from WP:COIN and associated matters and concentrate on other areas of Misplaced Pages for a few months. I was going to use a cliché here, but I see BusterD's already used it in the last sentence of the post before last, so won't. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Only so many ways to screw in a lightbulb. BusterD (talk) 15:06, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- In fairness, the overwhelming majority of my posts at COIN over the last year or so have been simple helpful contributions. The two matters discussed above were atypical and in both cases I've taken on board the advice I was given.
- If (per the figures above) I've been making about a third of all the contributions at COIN over that period then my behaviour would have been reported here long ago if I was either disruptive or incompetent.
- That said, I won't deny that I've been seriously considering retiring from Misplaced Pages over the last two months. The only reason I've not done so is because other users have specifically encouraged me to carry on because they value my work at COIN and on COI issues generally.
- All I can say is that what I have done, I have done in good faith and when I have occasionally erred I have learned lessons. I have acknowledged above that I've made mistakes and I'm grateful to those who have given me advice. Axad12 (talk) 15:34, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You've been reported here now. Over stuff that's current, and applicable. In that matter, you seemed to believe your expertise in COI matters allows you to decide what constitutes a valid RFC. That seems like a problem to me. I'm providing evidence on related behavioral matters. Having made one third of all recent edits on a noticeboard is not the high achievement you might think it is. Stay or retire, but learn to better assume good faith here, even when dealing with COI contributors. Most accounts are fine. You've been working in a narrow area where you deal with many bad faith users. I can understand why that might wear on any editor. The proof will be if you can incorporate these valid complaints into your future action. BusterD (talk) 16:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Buster, I know that we've had crossed words in the past so I'm grateful for your understanding and your measured response above. Yes, I deal with many bad faith users and yes it does wear on me sometimes.
- I don't claim any great expertise in COI matters but I do have the time to dedicate to the project and I've picked up a decent awareness of the methods that can be used to detect and prevent UPE/PROMO etc activity.
- I believe that in the past when I've been given advice on points of policy I've taken that advice on board and would hope to continue to do so in the future. Axad12 (talk) 17:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- This comment is not about you, but you might be interested in it: I've been thinking for years that a rotating duty system might be helpful. Of course we're all WP:VOLUNTEERS, but we might be less stressed, and get more representative results, if we each spent a week at ANI and a month at RSN and a week at CCI each year than if one editor spends all year at ANI and another spends all year at RSN (and nobody is at CCI – anyone who is looking for an opportunity to deal with really serious problems should please consider spending some time at Misplaced Pages:Contributor copyright investigations. The few regulars there will be so grateful, and who knows? You might find that you like it). WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You've been reported here now. Over stuff that's current, and applicable. In that matter, you seemed to believe your expertise in COI matters allows you to decide what constitutes a valid RFC. That seems like a problem to me. I'm providing evidence on related behavioral matters. Having made one third of all recent edits on a noticeboard is not the high achievement you might think it is. Stay or retire, but learn to better assume good faith here, even when dealing with COI contributors. Most accounts are fine. You've been working in a narrow area where you deal with many bad faith users. I can understand why that might wear on any editor. The proof will be if you can incorporate these valid complaints into your future action. BusterD (talk) 16:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Only so many ways to screw in a lightbulb. BusterD (talk) 15:06, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it would be a good idea for Axad12 to take a break from WP:COIN and associated matters and concentrate on other areas of Misplaced Pages for a few months. I was going to use a cliché here, but I see BusterD's already used it in the last sentence of the post before last, so won't. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Rereading the discussion this morning 90 days later, it reads worse than I made it sound above. An uninvolved admin tried to close the thread and chastised Axad12 in that close. The OP asked the thread closure be reversed, so the close comments were moved down to the end of the thread. BusterD (talk) 14:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I do think that it's worth zooming out and looking at the article as a whole. Comparing the version from before the current rewrites started to the current version makes it obvious that the tone of the article has become vastly more promotional, with much more focus on glowy feel-good aspects that are only mentioned in lower-quality sources (the story about the original creator hand-churning it?) And the context of the additive section has changed from emphasizing that it was cost-cutting (well-supported in the sources) to the weird
In 2013, Breyers introduced frozen desserts made with food additives (section above) that were intended to create smooth, low-calorie products. However, the new desserts evoked complaints by some consumers who were accustomed to the traditional "all-natural" Breyers ice cream.
, which 100% reads like marketing-speak (downplaying the reaction by making it sound like it's just that people loved the old version so much. In fact, the current version doesn't mention Breyer's cost-cutting measures at all, even though it's a massive aspect of coverage.) That doesn't necessarily justify the version above, but it's important to remember that this was originally a one-word mention in a larger list -Following similar practices by several of their competitors, Breyers' list of ingredients has expanded to include thickeners, low-cost sweeteners, food coloring and low-cost additives — including natural additives such as tara gum and carob bean gum; artificial additives such as maltodextrin and propylene glycol; and common artificially separated and extracted ingredients such as corn syrup, whey, and others
, the longstanding wording, is not unreasonable and doesn't really imply that there's anything particularly dangerous about propylene glycol, just that it's an additive. I think the context of that larger shift to a much more promotional tone to the article is significant (and looking over talk, most of the actual dispute has focused on that.) --Aquillion (talk) 17:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- I agree that the longstanding wording doesn't really imply there's anything particularly dangerous about propylene glycol. But the source being used doesn't even mention "maltodextrin and propylene glycol", that I can find, so those two particular additives were not even verifiable at the time. And then propylene glycol was removed, and when it was added back here as "a chemical commonly used in a car antifreeze", was really when this dispute seem to take a turn for the worse to keep this content in the article. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Aquillion, about this And the context of the additive section has changed from emphasizing that it was cost-cutting (well-supported in the sources) – I don't know what other sources say, but the cited sources don't say that at all. The cited sources are both from Canadian dairy farmers' marketing associations, saying that their product is good and costs more than imported oils, but doesn't actually WP:Directly support a claim that Breyers uses imported oils, or that Breyers has done anything to cut their costs. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- (As this is strictly a question of content, please consider replying at Talk:Breyers instead of here.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Aquillion, WhatamIdoing, and Isaidnoway: would you all mind if I copy over the thread, starting at Aquillion's "I do think that...." over to Breyer's talk? Graywalls (talk) 02:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't mind, but my contribution to this thread is relatively minor. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Aquillion, WhatamIdoing, and Isaidnoway: would you all mind if I copy over the thread, starting at Aquillion's "I do think that...." over to Breyer's talk? Graywalls (talk) 02:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- (As this is strictly a question of content, please consider replying at Talk:Breyers instead of here.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Aquillion, about this And the context of the additive section has changed from emphasizing that it was cost-cutting (well-supported in the sources) – I don't know what other sources say, but the cited sources don't say that at all. The cited sources are both from Canadian dairy farmers' marketing associations, saying that their product is good and costs more than imported oils, but doesn't actually WP:Directly support a claim that Breyers uses imported oils, or that Breyers has done anything to cut their costs. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree that the longstanding wording doesn't really imply there's anything particularly dangerous about propylene glycol. But the source being used doesn't even mention "maltodextrin and propylene glycol", that I can find, so those two particular additives were not even verifiable at the time. And then propylene glycol was removed, and when it was added back here as "a chemical commonly used in a car antifreeze", was really when this dispute seem to take a turn for the worse to keep this content in the article. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
Thanks, and a Diddly Question
I would like to thank User:Cullen328 for providing the background and content information. I also have a possibly minor question for User:Axad12. They edit-warred to try to stop the RFC on the content, and said that there was an exceptionally serious abuse
of the conflict of interest process. I may not have done enough background research, but I don't see where they have identified who has been the paid editor or undisclosed paid editor, or what the conflict of interest content is. If there has been paid editing, who has done it, and have they been dealt with? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Robert, probably the best single overview of the COI issue is given in this post .
- My impression at the time of the events, and subsequently, was that the activity was designed to distort the COI edit request process. I still feel that what happened re: the COI edit requests was irregular but I note that no other user seems to have supported me in that regard so I've not taken the matter any further. Similarly, while I felt that those events had a bearing on the RfC I now accept that the RfC relates solely to the content matter specifically under discussion. Axad12 (talk) 18:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I find your characterization of events inaccurate. You stated "we have the resubmission of the request to remove the disputed material in a COI edit request thread here "
- But this was not a resubmission. The original COI request was to remove a list of ingredients (including propylene glycol) which was sourced to a blog and which the COI editor says is outdated and doesn't reflect current ingredients. Meanwhile, the link you give as an example of "resubmission" was the COI editor requesting the removal of "the recent content addition related to propylene glycol". Both requests involve propylene glycol, but they are clearly separate requests concerning separate content.
- We want COI editors to propose changes to talk pages. The fact that this COI editor, apparently frustrated by a lack of responses to their requests went to the Food and Drink Wikiproject to request someone look at their edits, and then went to an active participant of said Wikiproject and requested they look at their requests, is not suspicious or abnormal. And I think it's highly inappropriate how Axad12 argued at length on the talk page that User:Zefr was "cultivated" by the COI editor "to do their bidding". I support other editors in recommending Axad12 take a break from COI issues. Photos of Japan (talk) 00:12, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd just like to stress here that I only linked to my post above because Robert McClenon asked for the background to the COI element. I was not trying to re-open that issue or to request that any action be taken on that issue. I have already accepted that there is absolutely no support for the position I adopted there. Axad12 (talk) 04:00, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- This doesn't answer my question. The link is to a conversation between User:Axad12, User:Graywalls, and administrator User:DMacks. The links from that conversation show that there is antagonism between Axad12 and Graywalls on the one hand and User:Zefr on the other hand. They show that there is discussion of conflict of interest, but they show no direct evidence of conflict of interest editing by any editor. They don't answer who is said to be a paid editor making edit requests, aside from the fact that paid editors are supposed to make edit requests rather than editing directly, so I am still not sure what the issue is. I haven't seen any evidence of abuse, let alone of
exceptionally serious abuse
that warranted edit-warring to prevent an RFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC)- The paid editor is User:Inkian Jason who is open and transparent about their COI. The edit request which began this episode was when Inkian Jason began this discussion where they pinged User:Zefr about having uploaded a photo of the company's logo and asking if they would be willing to add it to the article. Secondary to that they also asked about the appropriateness of the recently added propylene glycol content. The COI issues centered around whether Inkian Jason "cultivated" Zefr by pinging him to remove the added propylene glycol text after they had previously requested the deletion of a sentence about the various ingredients used in the ice cream (which included propylene glycol). Photos of Japan (talk) 05:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Proposal 2: Article Ban of Axad12 from Breyers
NOT IMPLEMENTED Axax12 has voluntarily agreed to avoid editing Breyers. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:20, 11 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
(Proposal 1 has been lost up in the early postings.) I propose that User:Axad12 be article-banned from Breyers and Talk:Breyers for six months. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support as proposer. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Robert, I believe I have acknowledged and accepted my various errors in some detail above. I would be grateful for the opportunity to take on board and apply the very valuable input I have received from various more experienced users over the course of this thread. I'd therefore suggest a counter-proposal, that I will voluntary undertake not to edit the Breyers article or make any contribution at the talk page, not just for the next 6 months but forever. I will also refrain from any interaction with Zefr and refrain from making any future comment on the matters under discussion in this thread (once this thread is complete). In addition, if I go back on any of those voluntary undertakings I would be happy for it to be upon pain of an indefinite site ban. Axad12 (talk) 04:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Axad12, I wonder what your intent is with your counterproposal. Robert McClenon has proposed an article ban for 6 months. Your counterproposal is, in effect, an indefinite article ban, an I-ban with Zefr, and a topic ban on the topic of propylene glycol in Byers, all without the usual escalating blocks for violations, instead jumping straight to an indef. While this would solve the issue, it's much more draconian. What's your reasoning for requesting harsher restrictions? EducatedRedneck (talk) 04:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- The purpose of the counter proposal was simply to indicate that I have only good intentions going forwards and I am happy to demonstrate those intentions upon pain of the strongest possible sanction. Evidently I wouldn't have made the counter proposal if I wasn't serious about the undertaking, as I'm aware that eyes will understandably be upon me going forwards.
- As I've said before, I'm a good faith user and I'm amenable to taking instruction when I have erred. I would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that without being subject to a formal ban. Axad12 (talk) 05:02, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I fail to see a distinction between what you proposed and a formal ban. Your proposal is on
pain of an indefinite site ban
. "A rose by any other name" comes to mind here. Your voluntary adherence to the terms of the proposal would be indistinguishable from being compelled into adherence by threat of an indef. If you still want this course of action, fair enough, I just don't think it'll do what you're envisioning. EducatedRedneck (talk) 05:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I fail to see a distinction between what you proposed and a formal ban. Your proposal is on
- I really don't recommend that, Axad. Sure, take a break from that article if you want to. But it's really easy to forget about a dispute years later, or even for a company to change names and suddenly you're on that article without knowing it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:53, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- For clarification, I would be happy to undertake voluntarily any measures that the community may suggest and upon pain of any sanction that the community may suggest. I believe that there is value to undertaking such measures voluntarily because it allows one to demonstrate that one can be trusted.
- Also just a brief note to say that in about an hour and a quarter's time I will have no internet access for the next 12-14 hours. Any lack of response during that period will simply be for that reason and not due to a wilful refusal to communicate. Hopefully I have indicated above that I have been happy to respond to all questions.
- No doubt matters will progress in my absence and I will find out my fate upon my return. Axad12 (talk) 05:18, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Axad12, I wonder what your intent is with your counterproposal. Robert McClenon has proposed an article ban for 6 months. Your counterproposal is, in effect, an indefinite article ban, an I-ban with Zefr, and a topic ban on the topic of propylene glycol in Byers, all without the usual escalating blocks for violations, instead jumping straight to an indef. While this would solve the issue, it's much more draconian. What's your reasoning for requesting harsher restrictions? EducatedRedneck (talk) 04:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Robert, I believe I have acknowledged and accepted my various errors in some detail above. I would be grateful for the opportunity to take on board and apply the very valuable input I have received from various more experienced users over the course of this thread. I'd therefore suggest a counter-proposal, that I will voluntary undertake not to edit the Breyers article or make any contribution at the talk page, not just for the next 6 months but forever. I will also refrain from any interaction with Zefr and refrain from making any future comment on the matters under discussion in this thread (once this thread is complete). In addition, if I go back on any of those voluntary undertakings I would be happy for it to be upon pain of an indefinite site ban. Axad12 (talk) 04:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support as less stringent than what Axad has proposed above within this section, but still prevents further disruption. EducatedRedneck (talk) 06:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose because Axad12 seems to have taken on board the criticism (much of which came from me) and we don't need to be vindictive. Cullen328 (talk) 08:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose. This episode has largely been a series of poor judgements by Axad12 perhaps coloured by their enthusiasm for COI matters but feedback has been given and acknowledged. I also oppose Axad12's counter proposal. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 10:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose Given Cullen328's comment. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:25, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose per above. I just don't see a need for such strict measures. Photos of Japan (talk) 16:22, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose the formal sanction, but I do support Axad12s voluntary sanction =
I will voluntary undertake not to edit the Breyers article or make any contribution at the talk page, not just for the next 6 months but forever. I will also refrain from any interaction with Zefr ... I wouldn't have made the counter proposal if I wasn't serious about the undertaking
. Isaidnoway (talk) 22:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
Proposal 3: Article Ban of Axad12 from COIN
NOT IMPLEMENTED Axad12 seems to have agreed to step back from COIN, and there isn't consensus for this. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:19, 11 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Clerking at COIN seems to have given User:Axad12 the idea that everyone whom they don't know is probably a paid editor, and something has given them the idea that they can identify "exceptionally serious abuse" without providing direct evidence. I propose that User:Axad12 be article-banned from WP:COIN for two months. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support as proposer. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Robert, just a brief note to say that I do not believe that
everyone whom don't know is probably a paid editor
. The overwhelming majority of my contributions at COIN are simple constructive contributions and the matter described above is highly atypical. Axad12 (talk) 04:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Robert, just a brief note to say that I do not believe that
- Oppose because Axad12 seems to have taken on board the criticism (much of which came from me) and we don't need to be vindictive. Cullen328 (talk) 08:44, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose. This episode has largely been a series of poor judgements by Axad12 perhaps coloured by their enthusiasm for COI matters but feedback has been given and acknowledged. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 10:12, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose Given Cullen328's comment. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:25, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would prefer it if Axad12's voluntary commitment was to stay away from WP:COIN rather than the company article in particular. It is very unhealthy, both for Misplaced Pages and for the particular user, for anything like a third of the edits on any noticeboard to be from any one user. Phil Bridger (talk) 15:18, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support this is a good idea, and not vindictive. It will do Axad12 some good to get away from the COIN for awhile, and get out there and roam around Misplaced Pages and see where else they can contribute constructively. Isaidnoway (talk) 16:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think a formal ban is unnecessary. Axad has done a remarkably good job of articulating a positive response to this incident, and it's to his credit that he has reacted so constructively under such pressure.
- I also think it's good for everyone to try something different on occasion. I think it's easier to walk away for a bit if you're sure that others will step up to fill your place. So with such proposals (not just this one), I'd love to see people saying not only that they support giving someone a break, but also that they'll try to step up to help out in that page/process/noticeboard for the length of a ban. It could be as little as checking in once a week or answering the easy questions. Who is willing to actually be supportive in practice? WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- People will fill the space. WP:COIN managed before Axad12 showed up, and will manage if they stop editing there. Nobody is indispensible. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's only for two months, it's a good thing to get away and get a breath of fresh air, and yes, his response has been positive, but even he admits in the Breyer debacle, he was relying on other editor's opinions in evaluating the disputed content, so getting away from the COIN desk for a couple of months, and getting some experience in other areas of the encyclopedia will be beneficial, if and when, he returns to COIN. Isaidnoway (talk) 22:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don’t want to derail the voting process here, but a couple of points in relation to COIN…
- (Apologies for the length of this post but I feel the contents are relevant.)
- 1) It has been observed elsewhere that “COIN has no teeth” (forgive me for the absence of a diff but I think it's a commonly acknowledged idea). I've discussed that issue at some length with Star Mississippi and they've acknowledged that there is (in their opinion) insufficient admin oversight at COIN and that too many threads have historically gone unresolved without action being taken against promo-only accounts (etc).
- Star Mississippi has encouraged me to refer such cases to admins directly to ask them to intervene. I’ve been doing so over recent months and this has significantly improved positive resolutions on COIN threads.
- If I’m not active at COIN then that won’t be happening and very little action will be being taken against the promo only accounts reported there. Thus, while I acknowledge Whatamidoing’s earlier point about cross-training etc, and the points made by other users, there is an underlying unresolved issue re: admin oversight at COIN, which might also be resolved via some kind of rota or by a greater number of admins looking in from time to time.
- I’ve not consciously been clerking, and I certainly don’t aspire to be “the co-ordinator of COIN”, but there is something of a vacuum there. Consequently I’ve often posted along the lines of “Maybe refer this to RPPI?”, “Is there a notability issue here?”, etc. etc. in response to threads that have been opened.
- I absolutely accept 100% that, in terms of experience, I’m probably not the best person to be doing that – but I have the time to do it and I have the inclination, and in the absence of anybody else serving that role I’ve been happy to do it. But, as I say, really this is an underlying unresolved issue of others not having the time or inclination rather than an issue of me going out of my way to dominate. What I'd really like is if there were others sharing that task.
- 2) Also I'm not really sure that the extent to which I perform that sort of role has any real link to me making assumptions about whether COI users have good or bad faith motivations. On the latter distinction I think it's fair to say that I'm usually (but admittedly not always) correct. There have also been occasions when others have been asking for action to be taken and I've been the voice who said "no, I think this is a good faith user who just needs some guidance on policy". I hope that I'm normally speaking fair in that regard.
- Most of the accounts who are taken to COIN are recent accounts who wrongly believe that Misplaced Pages is an extension of their social media. Most accounts who fall into that category are advised along those lines and they comply with policy or, sometimes, they just go away. Then there are the repeat customers who are often clearly operating in bad faith and where firmer action needs to be taken. I'm conscious of that distinction, which seems to me to be the single most important point when dealing with COIN cases. I've not been adopting some kind of hardline one-size-fits-all approach or characterising all COI activity as bad per se. However, more admin oversight at COIN would certainly be appreciated, if only so that there were a wider range of voices.
- Thus, in an ideal world I think I would continue to be allowed to operate at COIN, but as one of several regular contributors.
- Apologies for the length of this post but hopefully this is a useful and relevant contribution. Please feel free to hat this post if it is considered wildly off-topic. Axad12 (talk) 03:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- This comment just reinforces my support position that a two-month break is a good idea. Isaidnoway (talk) 04:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Isaidnoway, all I can say is that if Misplaced Pages is looking for people with the time and motivation to dedicate to the project, and who are amenable to taking instruction, then here I am.
- If I’ve been felt to be overly keen to contribute in a particular area then fair enough. I’m just not sure that a formal ban is the way to go about resolving that. Axad12 (talk) 05:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Good grief, it's only two months, not a lifetime, I've taken breaks form the project longer than that, and guess what, the place didn't fall apart, and neither will COIN if you take a small break, formally or voluntarily. You claim -
If I’m not active at COIN then that won’t be happening and very little action will be being taken against the promo only accounts reported there.
I just don't believe that to be true, because as Phil Bridger points out - WP:COIN managed before Axad12 showed up, and will manage if they stop editing there. Nobody is indispensable. Isaidnoway (talk) 06:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC)- I really don't wish to argue, you've expressed your view and that's fine. However, the point of my long post above wasn't that "I am critical to COIN". The post was simply intended to highlight the fact that there are very few regular contributors at COIN and to express a hope that a wider range of contributors might get involved (following on from earlier related comments by Whatamidoing). That would be healthy all round, regardless of my situation.
- Also, when I've seen similar situations arise in the past, good faith (but over-active) users seem to usually be given the opportunity to voluntarily take steps to allay any community concerns, rather than being handed a formal ban. I'd just be grateful for a similar opportunity. Axad12 (talk) 06:43, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Good grief, it's only two months, not a lifetime, I've taken breaks form the project longer than that, and guess what, the place didn't fall apart, and neither will COIN if you take a small break, formally or voluntarily. You claim -
- Apologies for the delay. I cannot provide a diff either as I can't recall where we had the conversation but acknowledging that what @Axad12 attributed to me is correct. There are simple blocks that are sometimes needed, but there aren't as many eyes on COIN to action them. I believe I've found merit to any Axad reported directly to me and if there were any I didn't take action, it was due to bandwidth as my on wiki time has been somewhat limited over the last six months. As for the merit of this report, I am not able to read through it to assess the issue so it would not be fair of me to weigh in on any element thereof. Star Mississippi 14:48, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- This comment just reinforces my support position that a two-month break is a good idea. Isaidnoway (talk) 04:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Comment I have read through this long, entire discussion. I'd just like to point out to Axad12 that, to me, it's kind of like you are saying what you think we want to hear so it's hard to know how reflective this incident has caused you to be. I think it would be a mistake for you to think you only made mistakes regarding this one article and instead reconsider your approach to the entire COI area. Sometimes "the consensus" is not correct and can violate higher principles like NPOV and V.
- I'll just mention that the COI area has caused us to lose some invaluable editors, just superb and masterful editors who were on their way to becoming administrators. They devoted incredible amounts of time to this project. But their interest in rooting out COI and pursuing UPE caused them to completely lose perspective and think that they were a one-man/woman army and they took irresponsible shortcuts that led them to either leave the project voluntarily or be indefinitely blocked. It's like they fell down a rabbit hole where they began to think that the rules didn't apply to them because they had a "higher calling" of getting rid of COI. This lack of perspective caused us to lose some amazing editors, unfortunately, but ultimately they were damaging the project.
- You seem like an enthusiastic editor and I'd rather not see the same thing happen to you so I recommend you cut back on your time "clerking" COIN and just make this task one of a variety of areas you edit in instead of your primary activity. Liz 08:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Liz, thank you for your comments. I welcome your perspective and I'm not unaware of the dangers that you highlight.
- I think this is now day 5 of what has been a rather gruelling examination where I’ve co-operated to the very best of my ability. Most of the material under discussion has related to a series of regrettable misunderstandings where I’ve openly acknowledged my errors and would now like to move on.
- Therefore I’d be grateful if, following a period of reflection, I be given the latitude to continue my activities as I think best, taking on board all the very helpful advice that I’ve received from multiple users. At this moment in time I'm not sure exactly what that will look like going forwards, but it will involve a very significant (perhaps complete) reduction in my concentration on COI issues and much more time spent on improving articles in non-COI areas where I've previously contributed productively (e.g. detailed articles on specific chess openings).
- If I subsequently fall short of community expectations then by all means bring me back here with a view to imposing extreme sanctions. I do not think that that will end up being necessary.
- I have only the best of intentions but I must admit that I'm finding this prolonged process psychologically wearing. I therefore wondered if we might bring matters to a swift conclusion.
- I am genuinely very grateful for the thoughts of all who have contributed above.
- Kind regards, Axad12 (talk) 08:27, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hey, all: This thread's over 100 comments now. Can we please stop now? WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:59, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Seconding. Axad seems to have agreed to step back from COI-related editing for a while, all discussions are trending strongly towards no formal sanctions - could this be closed? Rusalkii (talk) 06:50, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hey, all: This thread's over 100 comments now. Can we please stop now? WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:59, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose. Sanctions are intended to be preventive, not punitive. At times Axad12 can get too aggressive, and removing the RfC template was one of that. Other issues were also raised but unless these issues continues, formal sanctions are unlikely necessary. Graywalls (talk) 17:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose I haven't gone through the entire saga on the Breyers page, but for a while I was active in COI edit requests at the same time Axad12 was, and noticed their conistently very combatitive/aggressive approach towards any editor with a declared or suspected COI. I mentioned this to them and they said they had already stepped back from answering COI edit requests because of this, which I though at the time (and still do) showed a genuinely impressive amount of self-awareness. I rather burned out on the edit requests and came back a few months later to see the queue vastly decreased thanks in part ot Axad12's efforts, but also what seemed to me like very little improvement, if any, to the way they approach COI editors. I would regret to see Axad12 banned from this topic area, but I would like to see them approach it with somewhat more kindness. I would (regretfully) support sanctions if this kind of behaviour continued, but there's no need to jump to that now. Rusalkii (talk) 03:33, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just a note to acknowledge the essential truth of Rusalkii's description above of my activities. There have, however, also been examples where I've shown considerable kindness and patience to COI editors and assisted them in re-formulating requests in a way that conforms with the relevant policies.
- I've always seen activities at WP:COIN and activities dealing with COI edit requests as two rather different things (with the former involving primarily undeclared COI, and the latter involving declared COI). With the benefit of hindsight I accept that my exposure to the former probably coloured my approach to the latter in an unhelpful way and that being heavily active in both spheres simultaneously was not a good idea.
- I would happily undertake never to deal with a COI edit request ever again and I have no particular desire to continue my activities at COIN either. The extent to which it was unhealthy to be operating in both areas is thus now effectively a moot point but I acknowledge that it was a factor in the matters under discussion here. Axad12 (talk) 05:54, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
MAB Teahouse talk
I didn't want to, but I one-hour protected the talk page of the Teahouse due to MAB going there. The Teahouse itself is already protected. Obviously they're going there precisely to make things as difficult on us as possible, but I don't know what else to do. 331dot (talk) 09:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Would it be possible to create a link (or button) that creates a new section on one's own talk page with {{Help me}} preloaded? We could then add this to the page's editnotice. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 09:53, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I protected Misplaced Pages talk:Help desk for an hour and found that there is a notice that pops up giving advice on how to get assistance on the user's talk page. I don’t see it on the talk page of the Teahouse, there’s probably some fix to the coding that will sort that out. — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 12:22, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- OK, I've fixed that. — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 12:35, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I protected Misplaced Pages talk:Help desk for an hour and found that there is a notice that pops up giving advice on how to get assistance on the user's talk page. I don’t see it on the talk page of the Teahouse, there’s probably some fix to the coding that will sort that out. — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 12:22, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
Looks like today they're hitting every help page they can find. 331dot (talk) 09:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- In relation to "MAB" issues, is it just me, or is anyone else reminded of when the notoriously difficult Queen Mab speech was pretty much hit out of park in 1997's Romeo + Juliet? Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 12:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it's just you. Liz 06:21, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- In relation to "MAB" issues, is it just me, or is anyone else reminded of when the notoriously difficult Queen Mab speech was pretty much hit out of park in 1997's Romeo + Juliet? Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 12:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Kosem Sultan - warring edit
Hello, I am terribly sorry if I write this in wrong place, but I really don't know what place would be best to report this.
I was editing page of Kösem Sultan and I noticed this user: 109.228.104.136 changed phrase in infobox "spouse: Ahmed I" into "consort of: Ahmed I", claiming 'they were never married'. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=K%C3%B6sem_Sultan&oldid=1263148667
Because of this, I added information they were married and sourced this with book. However, this person keep revert to their preffered version of infobox. I asked them on Talk page about providing source. When I pointed that their source not disputes or even misinnterprets mine, they deleted my talk. They did this twice and even claimed I 'vandalized' Kosem's page.
As inexperienced user I was few times into edit warring, as I did not know how exactly rules are there.I try to be careful now to not make disruptions and while there is instruction to undo undsourced informations, I am not sure if I am allowed to undo their - unsourced - edition, as I already did this few times. I would not label changing 'spouse' for 'consort of' as vandalism per say, but I want to protect my edition and I wish this person provided source so we could each consensus. You can see our - now deleted by them - discussion here: 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:109.228.104.136&diff=prev&oldid=1267744138#Kosem_Sultan_was_wife_of_Ahmed_I. 2) https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:109.228.104.136&diff=prev&oldid=1267749540#Kosem_was_wife_of_Ahmed (I do not know if I linked this correctly, but both shound be find in history of talk page of user with today date)
I hope it can be seen I was willing to discuss things and I even proposed to merge ours versions, if only this person provide scholar source - which they didn't, as Tik Tok video they linked contardicts statement from my book (see details in discussions). I also want to add that blocked user called Cecac https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:K%C3%B6sem_Sultan#Marriage used exactly the same argument, as historian in Tik Tok provided by 109.228.104.136. I do not know if 109.228.104.136 and Cecac are the same person, but I think it should be checked. Finally, I do not know how much video made on Tik Tok should be considered as reliable source, so I am not sure how to act in this situation.
Again I apologize if I leave this message in wrong board - there were multiple issues so I decided to list them all. Please notify me if I am allowed edit Kosem's page and brought back informations, as I really want avoid going back-and-forth and do not want to be blocked myself. --Sobek2000 (talk) 14:45, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I want to add that I informed user 109.228.104.136 about this reprt, however they delete this from their Talk page. Sobek2000 (talk) 23:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I will point out that consort is generally considered synonymous with the word spouse. Elizabeth I's mother, for example was officially the "queen consort" of the united kingdom. Insanityclown1 (talk) 19:32, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, indeed, but in this person's inention was to make Kosem be perceived as not wife, but concubine. While I do agree that all wife of monarch is also his consort, this person meant 'concubine' and I was afraid they gonna delete also other parts, when I was reffering to Kosem as sultan's wife, hence I inetrvened. English for some reason reffer to all sulatns partners as 'consorts' regardless if they are married or not, that's why it's important to highlight when consort was actually wife, like in Kosem's case. Sobek2000 (talk) 15:29, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I will point out that consort is generally considered synonymous with the word spouse. Elizabeth I's mother, for example was officially the "queen consort" of the united kingdom. Insanityclown1 (talk) 19:32, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
Sockpuppetry in Philippine articles
Page protected. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:15, 11 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Request an immediate and extended range block for 49.145.5.109 (talk · contribs), a certified sock of LTA Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Yaysmay15 from editing 2025 in the Philippines and other related pages pending a result of a protection request, the second to have been filed for that page after the first instance of sockpuppetry by the same account was deemed not serious enough. See also Misplaced Pages:Long-term abuse/Yaysmay15. Borgenland (talk) 07:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- It seems like this should be reported at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Yaysmay15, not at ANI. That's where the checkusers are at although they are generally reluctant to connect an IP account with a blocked sockpuppet. Liz 04:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is already confirmed in the SPI. However, as it is an IP account that can't be indeffed, I'd had to check my calendar too often to see when their existing block expires. 15:48, 8 January 2025 (UTC) Borgenland (talk) 15:48, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Given that 2025 in the Philippines has been protected for the rest of the year, this probably isn't necessary. Also, worth noting that as p-blocks are limited to ten pages, we'd need to remove one from the block to add the 2025 page. Elli (talk | contribs) 00:16, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Wigglebuy579579
- Wigglebuy579579 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) keeps engaging in disruptive editing behaviour:
- they created dozens of articles by copy-pasting AI-generated text;
- they ignored all warnings onto their talk page;
- they duplicated draftified articles by simply recreating them.
Miminity and I have been cleaning the mess for hours, warned him several times, but he just ignores everything and starts again. – Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 17:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would support indefinitely blocking this user. Their output is entirely low quality AI-generated slop, and they are contributing nothing of value to the encyclopedia while placing considerable burden on others. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Est. 2021, can you provide some examples so we don't have to search through their contributions? Thank you. Liz 19:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Some pertinent examples Draft:Toda_Religion/2 (moved to mainspace by Wiggle and then back to draftspace) and Draft:Indigenous religions of India (exactly the same scenario as previous). These are all obviously AI generated based on their formatting. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:09, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Liz: Examples include:
- among others. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 19:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Liz: This editor left a message on my talkpage and again it is clearly written by AI. Here's the link Warm Regards, Miminity (Talk?) (me contribs) 00:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Some pertinent examples Draft:Toda_Religion/2 (moved to mainspace by Wiggle and then back to draftspace) and Draft:Indigenous religions of India (exactly the same scenario as previous). These are all obviously AI generated based on their formatting. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:09, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Are any of the references in Draft:Pfütsana Religion/2 real or are they all hallucinations? I'm having trouble finding them on web searches. They're also suspiciously old even though there is more recent relevant literature. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 01:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- The Misplaced Pages:Large language models essay recommends G3 for articles for which text-source integrity is completely lacking. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 01:22, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rsjaffe: Using BookFinder.com, Citation #1, #3 (might be a dupref of 1) does exist but has different author, Citation #2 does exist and is correct. #4 is dupref of #2. A quoted google search and a google scholar search about #5, 8, 9, 11 (The journals does not seem to even exist) yields no result. No result for 6, 7, 9, 10 (Nagaland State Press does not seems to even exist) 12 Warm Regards, Miminity (Talk?) (me contribs) 02:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would like to hear from @Wigglebuy579579, but, if the results of the reference searches on the other drafts are like this, then all those drafts should be deleted as unverifiable. LLM output can look very correct while hiding significant falsehoods, and it will be impossible to sort fact from fiction in those articles if they haven't been validated word-for-word with real sources. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 03:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Click all the link on the Draft:Toda Religion/2, all of them are {{failed verification}}. Either the page does not exist or the website itself does not exist. The JSTOR sources leads to a completely unrelated article. I think by the looks of it, this draft is safe to delete
- @Wigglebuy579579: care to explain? Warm Regards, Miminity (Talk?) (me contribs) 03:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would like to hear from @Wigglebuy579579, but, if the results of the reference searches on the other drafts are like this, then all those drafts should be deleted as unverifiable. LLM output can look very correct while hiding significant falsehoods, and it will be impossible to sort fact from fiction in those articles if they haven't been validated word-for-word with real sources. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 03:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rsjaffe: more ref-checking at Draft:Pfütsana: as Miminity observes, The Angami Nagas: With Some Notes on Neighbouring Tribes exists (although with the BrE spelling of the title) and I accessed it at archive.org. It does not mention pfütsana anywhere in its 570 pages. The closest we get is pfuchatsuma, which is a clan mentioned in a list of sub-clans of the Anagmi. The draft says
The term Pfütsana is derived from the Angami language, where "Pfü" translates to "life" or "spirit,"
which is contrary to what The Angami Nagas says – pfü is a suffix functioning sort of similarly to a pronoun (and I think I know how the LLM hallucinated the meaning "spirit" but this is getting too long already). I looked at a couple of the sources for Draft:Indigenous religions of India as well, and I haven't been able to find a single instance where the source verifies the claims in the draft. --bonadea contributions talk 16:48, 9 January 2025 (UTC)- Thanks for checking. Those are now deleted. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 16:52, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Est. 2021 and Miminity, thanks for supplying examples that can be reviewed. Liz 04:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have deleted Draft:Pfütsana Religion/2 and Draft:Toda Religion/2 as they have falsified references. Checking the others would be appreciated. Also, editor has been warned on their page about inserting unsubstantiated demographic data in articles. User talk:Wigglebuy579579#January 2025. I think we’re running out of WP:ROPE here. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 16:19, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rsjaffe: Draft:Sekrenyi Festival: J.H. Hutton's The Angami Nagas (1921) doesn't mention any such festival, but talks about a sekrengi ritual which includes the "purification" elements described in the draft. But that's as close as it gets. The rest of the ritual described in the draft is very different from the festival described in the book (let's just say that it is not something that would attract tourists like the draft claims), and the etymology is sheer nonsense. So again I believe it is an LLM that, like the proverbial blind chicken, has found a seed and then, like the same chicken but without a head, is running in confused circles around it.
- It also amuses me a bit that a book from 1922 is used to support a statement about how the festival is a popular symbol of the culture today. (FTR, publications from the era of the British Raj should never be used to support claims about ethnic/tribal/caste related topics, though that is a bit tangential to the issue here.) --bonadea contributions talk 18:21, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have deleted Draft:Pfütsana Religion/2 and Draft:Toda Religion/2 as they have falsified references. Checking the others would be appreciated. Also, editor has been warned on their page about inserting unsubstantiated demographic data in articles. User talk:Wigglebuy579579#January 2025. I think we’re running out of WP:ROPE here. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 16:19, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's a pity that the editor has not engaged with this discussion. The areas they're editing in could use more work, and I get the impression that they are here to improve the encyclopedia. However, the way in which they're going about it needs reform, and if they don't explicitly commit to reform, I am inclined to block this editor for the overreliance on LLMs and the careless inclusion of incorrect and false references. What do others think? — rsjaffe 🗣️ 22:36, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I suggest a topic ban on creating article as the editor seems to have okay-ish mainspace edits. Warm Regards, Miminity (Talk?) (me contribs) 01:26, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- I came across their edits several days ago, when a link they provided (with an archive link) didn't exist, even when I substituted ".in" for the correct website domain of ".com", so I've got no idea where they got those links from in the first place?
- They've responded to my talk page warning, but after going back to edit the exact same article they haven't fixed/reinstated the source so I'm now a little concerned that it came from AI & the user didn't find it themselves. They've done a lot of work on this article so I'm hoping it's just a one-off, but thought I'd best mention it.
- Their previous edit had the summary "Fixed errors" and removed almost a dozen sources/links. Blue Sonnet (talk) 02:16, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- That is very concerning. And the user is still editing and not responding to this discussion. Blocked from article space and draft space and reinvited to come here to discuss. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 05:06, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
User:BittersweetParadox - Overlinking
Not a problem; request rejectedThe following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- BittersweetParadox (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This user is persistently MOS:OVERLINKing throughout most of their edits that aren't dealing with categories or redirects, see for example:
I have also recently warned the user on their talk page regarding this, but they have seemingly chosen to ignore that warning, as they are still continuing with the same behavior:
This is also not the first time the issue has been brought up to the user, as they were previously warned in July 2024, where even after claiming to understand the issue/say they won't do it again, continued the same behavior. With their ignoring of warnings regarding overlinking, it unfortunately appears that an ANI discussion may be the only way to solve this ongoing issue, apart from a block. Magitroopa (talk) 17:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Overlinking still continuing on despite this ANI (for example), and even with an administrator suggesting they not ignore this ANI, continues on with their edits/ignoring this ANI. The user is not appearing to want to WP:COMMUNICATE whatsoever, and some of their communication over issues in the past does not bode well as well ().
- They are adding many uses of Template:Baseball year, despite the usage instructions saying that the template should not be used in prose text. I really am not sure what more there is to do here, as any attempts at communicating with the user does virtually nothing. Magitroopa (talk) 20:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- @BittersweetParadox: It's rather insulting to state you'll comment here and then continue to overlink . Please stop editing like this until you can address the above concerns. Rgrds. --BX (talk) 07:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Liz: Apologies for the ping, but could there please be some assistance here?... As BX stated above, despite their only communication thus far since this ANI (being a simple, "ok"), they have still continued overlinking- now overlinking even more since BX's comment above: . I'm really not sure what more there is that can be done here apart from a block, as it appears this is just going to continue on, no matter what anyone says here or on their talk page. Magitroopa (talk) 16:55, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
Several of the diffs you give are positive changes, and your inappropriate reverts have caused articles to be underlinked. Leave BittersweetParadox alone. If you insist that he be sanctioned for the negative edits, you'll get some as well. Nyttend (talk) 03:47, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.Automatic editing, abusive behaviour, and disruptive(ish) wikihounding from User:KMaster888
(non-admin closure) While KMaster888's editing history (the original discussion) wasn't inherently bad in itself, their conduct after being questioned about it was bad, violating WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL, WP:SUMMARYNO, and WP:NPA See , , , , , , , , , and their comments on this thread. Indeffed by Cullen328, and TPA revoked after , another personal attack. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 02:18, 9 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:KMaster888 appears to be making lightning speed edits that are well beyond the capacity of any human to review, in addition to article content that's coming across potentially LLM-like in nature. Since December they've made over 11,000 edits, many across multiple articles within a sixty second window.
I attempted to ask about the policies around this at User_talk:Novem_Linguae and was met with a tirade of obscenities and abuse (which I want to give them a slight benefit of the doubt on, I'd be upset at being accused of being a bot if I wasn't):
As far as I can tell this peaked with a total of 89 edits in a four minute window between 08:27 to 08:31 on December 28, 2024. Most are innocuous, but there are content edits thrown in the mix and recent articles were written in a way that indicates it may be an LLM (diff not definitive, though if you are familiar with LLM output this may ring some alarm bells, but false alarms abound).
Following the quite hot thread at User:Novem Linguae's page, it's quite clear that whoever is operating that bot threw my entire edit history into the mix, because the bot systematically edited every single article that I had edited, in reverse order (over 100 so far since this came up about an couple of hours ago), going back a reasonable amount of time.
The problem is that it's clear that a bot was instructed to just make an edit, without concern for what those edits are, so you end up with questionable, misrepresented, or edits for the sake of editing at a rate far faster than any editor could address.
This one is easily one of the strangest situations I've ever encountered on Misplaced Pages. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 20:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm flattered that you've looked into my activity on Misplaced Pages so closely. But if you'd be arsed, you'd understand that it is very simple to do an insource search using a regular expression to find a lot of stylistic errors, like no space after a sentence. If you love being on my back so much, good on you, but I'd wish if you got off. KMaster888 (talk) 20:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- 1) That doesn't explain how consistently abusive you have been
- 2) While I'm aware that an overwhelming percentage of the errors you're editing out are ones that can simply be addressed by regex, I'm very clearly raising the content edits as opposed to formatting ones. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 20:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- How about we take this off of ANI, of all places? KMaster888 (talk) 21:00, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, this feels quite appropriate considering your abusiveness and that your retaliation involved damaging some articles. I said there I was asking a policy question and was happy to let it go, you've edited over 100 articles from my edit history in direct sequence in response to that question, which is just strange behaviour for an editor. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 21:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Obviously, if there's someone who's making bad decisions on Misplaced Pages (You), I want to check if he has messed up articles. Please tell me what articles you think I have damaged. KMaster888 (talk) 21:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also, I'd appreciate if you would stop casting aspersions about me being an LLM. KMaster888 (talk) 21:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- As I said then, and as I'll say again: If there's not an LLM involved in this situation, then I'm sincerely sorry. It was a combination of clearly assisted editing and the verbiage used that looked concerning. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 21:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- There was no assisted editing. Stop spreading that blatant falsehood. This is why I say to take this off of ANI. It is stuff that is made up in your head that has no basis in reality. KMaster888 (talk) 21:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
Unless you're doing regex with your eyes, clearly you're using assistance. And the fact you're (still!) doing something that fixes the same type of typo almost as fast as I can click "Random Article" indicates you're doing more than just regex. You're finding these articles somehow.closhund/talk/ 22:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- I am doing an "insource" search using regex. KMaster888 (talk) 22:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I learned about insource searches recently and was able to find spam by the boatload immediately. It is a great tool. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 22:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ah . I wasn't aware one could do that. I retract. closhund/talk/ 22:36, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I learned about insource searches recently and was able to find spam by the boatload immediately. It is a great tool. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 22:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am doing an "insource" search using regex. KMaster888 (talk) 22:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- There was no assisted editing. Stop spreading that blatant falsehood. This is why I say to take this off of ANI. It is stuff that is made up in your head that has no basis in reality. KMaster888 (talk) 21:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- As I said then, and as I'll say again: If there's not an LLM involved in this situation, then I'm sincerely sorry. It was a combination of clearly assisted editing and the verbiage used that looked concerning. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 21:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- And, I would appreciate if you would stop calling my edits strange and odd. KMaster888 (talk) 21:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You had over 100 edits in a row directily in chronological sequence, from newest to oldest, of my exact edit history excluding wikiprojects and talk pages. I'm allowed to find that a little strange. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 21:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why shouldn't someone call strange and odd edits strange and odd? Phil Bridger (talk) 21:32, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, this feels quite appropriate considering your abusiveness and that your retaliation involved damaging some articles. I said there I was asking a policy question and was happy to let it go, you've edited over 100 articles from my edit history in direct sequence in response to that question, which is just strange behaviour for an editor. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 21:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @KMaster888 I suggest you stop with the personal attacks before you get blocked. Tarlby 21:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe I'm a little less forgiving than Tarlby, so I would suggest that KMaster888 should be blocked/banned already. Knowing how to write regular expressions doesn't give anyone the right to ignore policy about such issues as civility and hounding. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have not ignored policy on either civility or hounding. The fact is, there are no automation tools that I have used, and this has been constructed as a theory entirely as a falsehood. It is annoying that one Misplaced Pages user constantly spouts falsehoods about me. KMaster888 (talk) 21:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'll just ask you straight up.Do you feel any remorse for this statement?
remove asshole
Could you explain why you felt it was best to choose those two words when blanking your talk page? Tarlby 21:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- And again:
@The Corvette ZR1 @Tarlby stop clogging up ANI with your comments.
The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 22:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- And again:
- I'll just ask you straight up.Do you feel any remorse for this statement?
- I have not ignored policy on either civility or hounding. The fact is, there are no automation tools that I have used, and this has been constructed as a theory entirely as a falsehood. It is annoying that one Misplaced Pages user constantly spouts falsehoods about me. KMaster888 (talk) 21:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- , , , , , Tarlby 21:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- And this: improve asinine comment and this: I wipe my ass with comments like yours. Cheers! MrOllie (talk) 21:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- That was because Misplaced Pages's servers literally went down, which didn't allow the PHP form to be processed correctly. I would say the same to you as I said to the other editor: get off my back. KMaster888 (talk) 21:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You have to abide by the rules like the rest of us. And cool it with the hostile edit summaries. MiasmaEternal☎ 21:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Great answer. Tarlby 21:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You are clearly WP:NOTHERE. Attacking other editors instead of backing off, inappropriate edit summaries, what next? The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 21:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- There ought to be a gossip noticeboard that doesn't clog up ANI. KMaster888 (talk) 21:45, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I will dispute what you said. I AM HERE to build an encyclopedia. Why do you think I would have given 10,000 edits worth of my time if I didn't care? KMaster888 (talk) 21:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would say that you are here to build an encyclopedia. Unfortunately, WP:CIVIL and WP:SUMMARYNO tell me the contrary. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 21:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Regardless of their editing or otherwise, KMaster888's comments in edit summaries and here indicate they're WP:OBNOXIOUS in a way that indicates an inability to participate in a collaborative encyclopedia. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:07, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- The product of Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, which is a body of written and visual work. It is first and foremost about the product, not the community. In this sense, it is indeed a collaborative encyclopedia, but it should not be considered an encyclopedic collaboation. KMaster888 (talk) 23:13, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Wikilawyering over what "collaboration" is doesn't help when you're in blatant violation of the fourth of the five pillars. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not Wikilawyering. I would also encourage you to come to a discussion on my talk page over small potatoes instead of at ANI. KMaster888 (talk) 23:19, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is wikilawyering. And this is at ANI, so the discussion is taking place at ANI. Answering the concerns about your conduct that were raised here on here is how you resolve the issue, not "don't talk about it on ANI", as the latter gives the impression of trying to sweep them under the rug - especially since your edit summaries MrOllie linked above make it clear this is very much not "small potatoes". - The Bushranger One ping only 23:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not Wikilawyering. I would also encourage you to come to a discussion on my talk page over small potatoes instead of at ANI. KMaster888 (talk) 23:19, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Wikilawyering over what "collaboration" is doesn't help when you're in blatant violation of the fourth of the five pillars. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- The product of Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, which is a body of written and visual work. It is first and foremost about the product, not the community. In this sense, it is indeed a collaborative encyclopedia, but it should not be considered an encyclopedic collaboation. KMaster888 (talk) 23:13, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Regardless of their editing or otherwise, KMaster888's comments in edit summaries and here indicate they're WP:OBNOXIOUS in a way that indicates an inability to participate in a collaborative encyclopedia. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:07, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would say that you are here to build an encyclopedia. Unfortunately, WP:CIVIL and WP:SUMMARYNO tell me the contrary. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 21:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- That was because Misplaced Pages's servers literally went down, which didn't allow the PHP form to be processed correctly. I would say the same to you as I said to the other editor: get off my back. KMaster888 (talk) 21:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- And this: improve asinine comment and this: I wipe my ass with comments like yours. Cheers! MrOllie (talk) 21:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe I'm a little less forgiving than Tarlby, so I would suggest that KMaster888 should be blocked/banned already. Knowing how to write regular expressions doesn't give anyone the right to ignore policy about such issues as civility and hounding. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Here's some more diffs of KMaster888 being uncivil. From my user talk page. . I think these are forgivable if in isolation since KMaster888 may be frustrated by false accusations of being a bot, but if it's a pattern, it may need addressing.
- The WP:BLUDGEONING and WP:BADGERING of my user talk page and of this ANI is also a behavioral problem that, if a pattern, may also need addressing. It is disrespectful to interlocutor's time and brainpower to dominate discussions by replying to everything. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:36, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Unless there are specific discussion rules, I should not be penalized for responding to comments that involve me. KMaster888 (talk) 23:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- The problem isn't you responding to those comments. It's about HOW you responded to those comments. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 23:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- There are, in fact,
specific discussion rules
- WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. - The Bushranger One ping only 06:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Unless there are specific discussion rules, I should not be penalized for responding to comments that involve me. KMaster888 (talk) 23:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
Propose indefinite block
Blocked and TPA revoked. - The Bushranger One ping only 06:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- KMaster888 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- You're saying "they" like it's more than one person. I am one editor. KMaster888 (talk) 23:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Not in that sense. We use they/them pronouns as to not assume an editor's gender. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 23:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support per above reasoning. MiasmaEternal☎ 23:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Looks like Cullen328 beat us to that indef. MiasmaEternal☎ 23:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support per WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior. Their blank talkpage, on which they encourage discussion, has a nonexistent archive. Miniapolis 23:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- That is not true. The archive page is at the subpage of the talk page, /archive. KMaster888 (talk) 23:45, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support - While I wouldn’t have had the same suspicions about their editing as Warren, their extremely uncivil reactions to it and further questions here, along with the further attention they’ve drawn on to prior recent behaviour has effectively demonstrated an unwillingness to engage in meaningful interaction with any other editor who disagrees with them. Rambling Rambler (talk) 23:52, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe revoke TPA too? This is beyond the pale. closhund/talk/ 23:57, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- After their latest personal attack, I have revoked their talk page access. Cullen328 (talk) 23:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support. This personal attack against blocking admin Cullen328 is beyond the pale. This is clearly a person that lets rage get the best of them, and is not responsive to feedback. Not sure if we should close this, or let it play out and turn into a CBAN. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:17, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Good block and I'd have done same if you hadn't been here first. Regardless of whether the edits were improvements, no one has the right to treat other editors as KM888 did. Star Mississippi 01:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Good block It'd take a hand-written miracle from God for them to change their ways anytime soon.
Investigating the hounding claim
Above, there is a claim that KMaster888 is WP:HOUNDING Warrenmck by editing 100 pages that Warrenmck has edited. The editor interaction analyzer suggests that there's only an overlap of 45 pages (42 if you subtract out my user talk, KMaster888's user talk, and ANI). Warrenmck, can you please be very specific about exactly which pages overlap? Maybe give a link to KMaster888's contribs and timestamps of where this range of hounding edits begins and ends? This is a serious claim and probably actionable if enough evidence is provided. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Note that there are >100 edits across the pages, since they tended to edit in a spree. The number of pages you found seems accurate, even accounting for the possibility of a few outside of this exchange. I’m not sure what exactly I can do to show the relationship to my edit history beyond I guess go pull said histories and compare them? But I wouldn’t be surprised if the vast majority of the interactions you see were from that narrow window after your talk page.
- Sorry for the drama, by the way. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 01:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ah that makes sense. I didn't think of the multiple edits to a page thing. No worries about the drama. –Novem Linguae (talk) 02:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please don't apologise for this. Nobody should have to put up with such behaviour. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:47, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Bgsu98 mass-nominating articles for deletion and violating WP:BEFORE
- Bgsu98 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Hello! Sorry if this isn't the right place to post this.
I noticed an editor named Bgsu98 who had been mass-nominating figure skater articles for deletion. It is too obvious to me that he doesn't do even a minimum search required by WP:BEFORE before nominating. (I must note that most of the skaters he nominates for AfD aren't English, so a foreign language search is required. Sometimes you need to search on a foreign search engine. For example, Google seems to ignore many Russian websites recently.)
I have counted 45 articles nominated by him at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Skating. And it is worrying that people seem to rely on the nominator's competence and vote "delete" without much thought.
I should note that Bgsu98 doesn't seem to stop even when an article he nominated has been kept. He nominated Kamil Białas (a national medalist) two times with the same rationale (Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Kamil Białas (2nd nomination)). One can really wonder why he does this.
P.S. More information is here: Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Figure Skating#Notability guidelines. What happened is that the notability guidelines for some sportspeople were changed a few years ago. And a large chunk of figure skater articles (most of them, honestly) are now outside of WP:NSKATE. It seems that no one acted on this change until Bgsu98 came.
P.P.S. As I stated on the WikiProject Figure Skating talk page I linked above, I think it was very unfair to change the rules. Especially since web sources tend to die out after some time.
P.P.P.S. I would also like to note that I am polite, while Bgsu98 has already accused me of "bad-faith accusations and outright lies" (source). --Moscow Connection (talk) 01:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- as the closer of several skating AfDs, I have no issue with a DRV if @Moscow Connection or any other editor believes I closed it in error. However MC, you seem to acknowledge these skaters don't meet the rules and have an issue with the rules. That isn't grounds for a DRV nor a report against @Bgsu98 who is nominating based on community consensus. Star Mississippi 02:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree with Star Mississippi. But just to give some scope, this cleaning house, mostly of ice skating junior champions, is not recent, it's been going on for at least 6-9 months now, it was originally done through the use of PROD'd articles. But while there have been some objections raised over the past year, Bgsu98's efforts have mostly received support from editors who believe Misplaced Pages is bloated with biographies of marginally notable athletes. Over the past two weeks, through the use of AFD, we have seen dozens and dozens (hundreds?) of annual national skating championship articles either deleted or redirected. But I just want to note that these AFDs wouldn't have closed as "Delete all" or "Redirect all" without the support of other AFD participants. Very few editors are arguing to Keep them all. Liz 02:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- "However MC, you seem to acknowledge these skaters don't meet the rules and have an issue with the rules."
— They don't meet WP:NSKATE, but most (if not all) are famous people and should meet WP:GNG. Therefore, caution should be exercised when deleting. I don't think a national silver medalist can be unknown, it is just that reliable sources are hard or even impossible to find now. It appears that some years ago the rules didn't require WP:GNG, so skater articles were created with simply "He advanced to the free skate at the 2010 World Championships" or "He is a national senior silver medalist", which was enough for an article to not be "picked at". The editors who created skater articles back then probably didn't want to do more than a bare minimum and didn't care to add reliable sources beyond the ISU website profile. One who decides to delete a skater article must keep in mind that reliable sources probably existed at the time the article was created. Cause, as I've said, these skaters arn't unknown. They represented their countries at the highest possible level of competition.
(I've recently noticed that Google News don't go as far back as before. Some web sites deleted their older content. Some have even completely disappeared. Like, I mostly edit music articles, and I've noticed that if didn't create some articles 10 years ago, I wouldn't be able to create them now.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC)- Even if being a junior national medallist was enough in and of itself, WP:V has always been a thing. You can't just state some fact that would meet a specific notability guideline like WP:NSKATE without providing verification of the claim without the possibility that the article will be nominated at AFD or redirected. TarnishedPath 02:35, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Star Mississippi and Liz: A WP:DRV, a deletion review? Is it maybe possible to undelete "Lilia Biktagirova" (Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lilia Biktagirova)? Cause I was searching for sources for Alexandra Ievleva and found something like a short biography of hers, two paragraphs long.
Here: "Тренер Трусовой, почти партнерша Жубера, резонансная Иевлева: кто соревновался с Туктамышевой на ее 1-м ЧР (2008)".
And again, it was Bgsu98 who nominated the article back in May. And he was told, I'm quoting User:Hydronium Hydroxide: "There are a whole bunch of similarly deficient nominations. Really, such blanket nominations without evidence of WP:BEFORE and consideration of WP:ATD should be all procedurally kept as WP:SKCRIT#3 given lack of a valid deletion rationale." --Moscow Connection (talk) 23:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC) - After looking at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lilia Biktagirova, I think no one will say that I was incorrect about how people vote at AfD. There's even a comment like this: "WP:NSKATE lists some very clear criteria for inclusion, which this article does not meet." And then a more experienced user noted that you should actually search for coverage that may satisfy WP:GNG, but no one actually searched and the article was deleted. --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have also found an interview with Lilia Biktagirova: . Yes, it is an interview, but there an editorial paragraph about her (an introductiion). There also a short paragraph here → . Not much, but considering she competed almost 20 years ago... --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:34, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes @Moscow Connection you're welcome to file a deletion review or request that @Liz provide you the draft to improve with the sourcing you identified. Neither of us can unilaterally overturn the community discussion. Star Mississippi 14:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes @Moscow Connection you're welcome to file a deletion review or request that @Liz provide you the draft to improve with the sourcing you identified. Neither of us can unilaterally overturn the community discussion. Star Mississippi 14:36, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay. --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is a content dispute and not an ANI-worthy issue. * Pppery * it has begun... 03:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think this is a content dispute. I think the user violates WP:BEFORE, otherwise it would be impossible to create tons of nominations. And please look at the AfD page, all his nominations simply say: "Non-notable figure skater", "Non-notable figure skater, PROD removed", "Non-notable figure skater; no senior-level medal placements" or "Non-notable figure skater; highest medal placement was silver at the German nationals". It is obvious that there's no WP:BEFORE research and as little consideration as "humanly possible".
Okay, since Bgsu98 pinged someone in his support, I'll ping BeanieFan11 and Doczilla. (Sorry for disturbing you, BeanieFan11 and Doczilla.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)- When closing one AfD, I made some observations about that day's many AfDs and noted in that one close regarding Bgsu98: "The nominator's burst of dozens of nominations within half an hour failed to stimulate any discussion about many of them." In my meager opinion, the massive number of rapid deletion nominations rather strongly might suggest, at the very least, a lack of due diligence regarding each and a likely violation of WP:BEFORE. Doczilla Ohhhhhh, no! 07:02, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think this is a content dispute. I think the user violates WP:BEFORE, otherwise it would be impossible to create tons of nominations. And please look at the AfD page, all his nominations simply say: "Non-notable figure skater", "Non-notable figure skater, PROD removed", "Non-notable figure skater; no senior-level medal placements" or "Non-notable figure skater; highest medal placement was silver at the German nationals". It is obvious that there's no WP:BEFORE research and as little consideration as "humanly possible".
- Moscow Connection claims to be polite, yet wrote the following: "random people at AfD don't care about actually checking the notability and just vote "delete per nom". Pinging Shrug02 who also found that comment objectionable. I have made an effort to thank editors who have participated in my AFD's, regardless of whether they have always agreed with my findings, because AFD's that end in "no consensus" do nothing but waste everyone's time.
- He has been adversarial and confrontational in every communication to me. From Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Hanna Harrell: "By the way, I don't understand your agenda here on AfD... Like, you nomitated Kamil Białas 2 (two) times with exactly the same rationale... Are you planning to nominate it 100 times?"
- I always appreciate constructive feedback when it's delivered in a courteous and professional manner. Moscow Connection seems incapable of courtesy or professionalism. Bgsu98 (Talk) 04:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- C'mon, User:Bgsu98, civility goes both ways. We can discuss the value of these articles and the AFD process without attacking each other. Flinging mud doesn't give anyone the moral high ground. Liz 04:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I apologize, Liz; I am just at my wit's end with this editor. Bgsu98 (Talk) 04:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Here's my take, User:Bgsu98. You have been taking extremely BOLD actions now for most of 2024, proposing the removal of certain articles that are now being judged to be of non-notable article subjects. I think we have even had other discussions about these mass deletions on ANI before when they were still being done in the PROD world. When you take on a project like cleaning house of hundreds of articles that other editors spent time creating and improving, you can expect pushback even if you have policy on your side. Any action that seems "mass" can cause alarm in regular editors who don't believe sufficient care is being taken before tagging these articles for deletion. While I might agree with the overall goal of your project, I think it's important to have empathy for editors who have contributed to these articles over the years that are now being regularly deleted. Most of my work involves the deletion of pages and I still feel some pangs of guilt over removing articles that editors have poured hours into, even if i know they don't meet Misplaced Pages's current standards. It's a job that must be done but I know that it's disappointing to many of our content creators. Liz 05:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- As I have been pinged on this discussion I thought I would 1 confirm I did find @Moscow Connection to be somewhat rude and condescending in their repeated assertions that those who vote on these skating AFDs do not do any research and are basically sheep just voting delete and 2 most of these nominated bios are a few sentences or just a table of stats copy and pasted so @Liz I doubt anyone spent hours putting them together. Finally I feel @Moscow Connection is now looking to use any procedure they can to try and besmirch @Bgsu98 and derail their valid efforts to remove some of the seemingly thousands of sports bios that do not meet current Misplaced Pages guidelines and are of interest to few, if any, general reader. If anyone is in need of reprimand or sanction over this matter (which has been blown out of all proportion), it is @Moscow Connection Shrug02 (talk) 09:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why should I be "reprimanded"? My comments about "people at AfD' were non-specific, while Bgsu98 directly accused me of lying. (In the Russian Misplaced Pages, he would be blocked for this "automatically".)
Also, a note to admins: Can it be that Bgsu98 finds fun in annoying other editors? I can't really explain the content of his user page differently. Yes, surely, different people can have different motivation for editing Misplaced Pages, but I don't think it is a "normal situation" when you look at someone's user page and see how the person likes to be "evil".
And, btw, please note that Bgsu98 summoned Shrug02 here for the purpose of supporting him. I haven't summoned anybody. (Maybe some people would notice, but Bgsu98 deleted my ANI notice from his talk page immediately.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:35, 8 January 2025 (UTC)- @Moscow Connection I am going to be generous and presume English is not your first language so your choice of wording might be a little off. However, I was not "summoned" or asked to support anyone. @Bgsu98 pinged me and I gave my view. I did not say you SHOULD be reprimanded, I said IF anyone was to be sanctioned over this matter then it would be you. My reasoning for this is your attacking @Bgsu98, making broad statements questioning the intelligence of people at AFD discussions and using this forum incorrectly. As for what happens on Russian Misplaced Pages, that is their busines. I hope you have read @HyperAccelerated's comment as I think it sums this situation up nicely. Shrug02 (talk) 15:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I haven't questioned anybody's intelligence. It is just my experience that many people trust the nominator and vote "delete" without much thinking. They maybe quickly visit the article in discussion, look at the "References" section, that's enough for them. And they typically don't speak Russian or Hebrew or whatever. So, when they see "Selepen", they hardly go to yandex.ru and search for "Шелепень". --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:09, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay, "summon" is not the right word. Sorry. "He asked you to come". But that "I am going to be generous" sentence doesn't look polite. --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- According to this, "summon" and "ask to" are the same thing. --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Moscow Connection
- Cambridge Dictionary definition of summon (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/summon) is "to order someone to come to or be present at a particular place, or to officially arrange a meeting of people."
- No-one ORDERED me to take part in this discussion.
- If there is so much significant coverage for these skaters then the simple solution is for you to add it to the articles in question with suitable references and then AFDs will end as keep.
- I am now finished with this discussion and I hope the admins step in and end it soon.
- All the best to everyone involved. Shrug02 (talk) 16:42, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Moscow Connection wrote the following in his original complaint: ”…decided to mass-delete articles that don't comply with WP:NSKATE… I am sure most articles he deleted had the right to stay per WP:GNG.” I don’t have the ability to “mass-delete” anything, and if most of those articles met WP:GNG, the users at AFD would have voted to keep them. Just two examples of MC’s falsehoods. Bgsu98 (Talk) 16:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- OK. But you have also mass-prodded articles, that's the same as "deleting". (Like a "delayed deletion".) --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:36, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Moscow Connection I am going to be generous and presume English is not your first language so your choice of wording might be a little off. However, I was not "summoned" or asked to support anyone. @Bgsu98 pinged me and I gave my view. I did not say you SHOULD be reprimanded, I said IF anyone was to be sanctioned over this matter then it would be you. My reasoning for this is your attacking @Bgsu98, making broad statements questioning the intelligence of people at AFD discussions and using this forum incorrectly. As for what happens on Russian Misplaced Pages, that is their busines. I hope you have read @HyperAccelerated's comment as I think it sums this situation up nicely. Shrug02 (talk) 15:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why should I be "reprimanded"? My comments about "people at AfD' were non-specific, while Bgsu98 directly accused me of lying. (In the Russian Misplaced Pages, he would be blocked for this "automatically".)
- As I have been pinged on this discussion I thought I would 1 confirm I did find @Moscow Connection to be somewhat rude and condescending in their repeated assertions that those who vote on these skating AFDs do not do any research and are basically sheep just voting delete and 2 most of these nominated bios are a few sentences or just a table of stats copy and pasted so @Liz I doubt anyone spent hours putting them together. Finally I feel @Moscow Connection is now looking to use any procedure they can to try and besmirch @Bgsu98 and derail their valid efforts to remove some of the seemingly thousands of sports bios that do not meet current Misplaced Pages guidelines and are of interest to few, if any, general reader. If anyone is in need of reprimand or sanction over this matter (which has been blown out of all proportion), it is @Moscow Connection Shrug02 (talk) 09:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Here's my take, User:Bgsu98. You have been taking extremely BOLD actions now for most of 2024, proposing the removal of certain articles that are now being judged to be of non-notable article subjects. I think we have even had other discussions about these mass deletions on ANI before when they were still being done in the PROD world. When you take on a project like cleaning house of hundreds of articles that other editors spent time creating and improving, you can expect pushback even if you have policy on your side. Any action that seems "mass" can cause alarm in regular editors who don't believe sufficient care is being taken before tagging these articles for deletion. While I might agree with the overall goal of your project, I think it's important to have empathy for editors who have contributed to these articles over the years that are now being regularly deleted. Most of my work involves the deletion of pages and I still feel some pangs of guilt over removing articles that editors have poured hours into, even if i know they don't meet Misplaced Pages's current standards. It's a job that must be done but I know that it's disappointing to many of our content creators. Liz 05:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- C'mon, User:Bgsu98, civility goes both ways. We can discuss the value of these articles and the AFD process without attacking each other. Flinging mud doesn't give anyone the moral high ground. Liz 04:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Let me help you out here, Moscow Connection. As it happens, Bgsu98 is a veteran editor with both tens of thousands of edits and a long history of editing skating articles. He is not, as you imply, some bomb thrower hellbent in laying waste to skating articles. Moving right along ...
(2) Your curious assertion that he was the first person to AfD no-longer-qualifying skating articles is inaccurate; I did so myself, right after the NSPORTS changes, and I recall several editors also doing so.
(3) The Bialas AfDs did not close as Keep, as you wrongly assert. They closed as "no consensus", with almost no participation and multiple relistings; that's exactly the kind of situation where renomination to seek an actual consensus is appropriate.
(4) Rules change on Misplaced Pages, by the bucketload. I have a hard time seeing what is "very unfair" about this, unless "very unfair" is a secret code for "I don't like it, so it's unfair." And ... seriously? You've been on Misplaced Pages for fifteen years, have over sixty thousand edits, have participated in nearly a hundred AfDs? I'd expect this level of confusion from a first-week newbie, not from an editor of your experience. Ravenswing 06:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- He only joined in 2021. I've looked at his "Pages Created" count, what he has been doing is creating pages for small figure skating events (for their yearly editions) since late 2023. That's hardly "a long history". --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- “Small figure skating events” like the National Championships of the U.S., Canada, France, Germany, and Italy; the Grand Prix series, including the Grand Prix Final; and the Challenger Series events? 1) Article Creation isn’t the only metric by which Misplaced Pages contributions can be measured, and 2) Referring to any of those events as “small” is ridiculous and insulting to all parties involved. I should have never even responded yesterday when three different administrators asserted that the original complaint was groundless. I’m done responding to this complainant. Bgsu98 (Talk) 17:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- He only joined in 2021. I've looked at his "Pages Created" count, what he has been doing is creating pages for small figure skating events (for their yearly editions) since late 2023. That's hardly "a long history". --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Given it is acknowledged that large numbers of articles on figure skaters do not meet Misplaced Pages's inclusion criteria (
What happened is that the notability guidelines for some sportspeople were changed a few years ago. And a large chunk of figure skater articles (most of them, honestly) are now outside of WP:NSKATE.
), I’m not really seeing anything unexpected here. — - Malcolmxl5 (talk) 12:26, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- As someone uninvolved in all of this, I’m reading that OP gets into a dispute about AfDs and then goes to ANI to make their grievances more visible to admins. Does OP not realize that admins are primarily responsible for moderating, closing, and relisting AfD discussions? Also, as someone else pointed above, this is a content dispute: it does not meet the standard for being urgent, chronic, or intractable. OP’s choice to insult another user by calling their behavior “crazy” multiple times is inappropriate and makes me believe that they might have just thrown a WP: BOOMERANG. HyperAccelerated (talk) 14:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- the bar for notability for skaters went up, someone came along and started nominating based on the new guidelines, and OP is upset. that seems to be the gist. i was not involved but didn't that happen in the porno biography area a few years ago? some change raised the bar so a lot of stuff was deleted. ValarianB (talk) 16:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I do heavily advise slowing down on the nominations. There is not enough editors in the figure skating topic area to give the appropriate amount of time to search for sources for these articles. To be honest, I'm sure that a good number of ones that were closed as "delete" were actually notable but no one did any in-depth BEFORE search (many would not have coverage in English and the coverage would be in foreign newspaper archives). I asked the user yesterday about the extent of the BEFORE searches and only got "Yes, but not as much as some people like" – and then I asked what search was done for the most recent example, from a few hours prior, and they said they had no recollection (which is concerning IMO, to have no idea what searches you did for an article you nominated a few hours prior). Note that the AFD rationales are often really poor; many are simply
Non-notable figure skater
, which doesn't say much of anything. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC)- I will slow down on nominations and focus on improving other aspects of the the FS articles, such as updating the infoboxes and tables to conform with our MOS. Bgsu98 (Talk) 17:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- And @Moscow Connection, you can help by, when the nomination involves a person whose native language is written in non-Latin characters (e.g., Cyrillic or Hebrew), replying in the AfD with a link to the native language web search for that person to help establish the presence or absence of notability support. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 17:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- But there are 45 (!) articles nominated for deletion. I looked at the AfD page and understood that it was physically impossible to do anything. So I decided to bring this situation to the attention of the Misplaced Pages community. It is easy to create 1000 AfD nominations with the same rationale ("Non-notable figure skater"), but even these mere 45 AfD nominations utterly scared me and discouraged me from even looking at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Skating. (I really can't do anything. I have some other articles, the ones I created, that need attention. And I have long "to do" lists that wait for years to be taken care of.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- The answer being, "So?" If neither the article creators nor anyone else has sought to provide proper sourcing for these articles -- the Ievleva article, for example, was created seventeen years ago -- then that just suggests no one's given enough of a damn to bother, and Misplaced Pages will survive these stubs' loss. It is not, nor ever has been, "physically impossible" to do anything about mass deletions; that's ridiculous. An AfD discussion is open for seven days, and it's easy to find adequate sources for an article ... certainly, in the cases of these Russian skaters, for a native speaker of Russian such as yourself. If you can't, the answer isn't that there's some flaw in the process or that Bgsu98 is pulling a fast one on us all. The answer is that the subjects are non-notable, and don't merit Misplaced Pages articles. Ravenswing 07:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- The nominator has agreed to slow down, so the point is kind of moot, but I still wanted to make clear: Ravenswing, 45 AFDs rapidly is ridiculous, especially when next-to-no-BEFORE is done and there previously was no indication of stopping – remember that there's only a few editors in the topic area – and many of these, which are notable, require more than simple Google searches to find the coverage that demonstrates notability (i.e., for many, the coverage would be in places such as difficult-to-find offline newspapers in foreign languages) – making so many nominations rapidly without appropriate searches will inevitably result in some truly notable ones being deleted due to the lack of effort. While you may not care about the stubs, others do, and simply because the two editors who drive-by to the nom and say "Delete per above" didn't find coverage absolutely does not equate to the subject being confirmed non-notable. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- The answer being, "So?" If neither the article creators nor anyone else has sought to provide proper sourcing for these articles -- the Ievleva article, for example, was created seventeen years ago -- then that just suggests no one's given enough of a damn to bother, and Misplaced Pages will survive these stubs' loss. It is not, nor ever has been, "physically impossible" to do anything about mass deletions; that's ridiculous. An AfD discussion is open for seven days, and it's easy to find adequate sources for an article ... certainly, in the cases of these Russian skaters, for a native speaker of Russian such as yourself. If you can't, the answer isn't that there's some flaw in the process or that Bgsu98 is pulling a fast one on us all. The answer is that the subjects are non-notable, and don't merit Misplaced Pages articles. Ravenswing 07:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Actually, I have attempted to do something yesterday. I voted and commented on two nominations. ("Alexandra Ievleva" and "Viktoria Vasilieva".) Cause these two are Russian figure skaters, and I know they are famous enough. Immediately a user came and wholesale dismissed all the sources I found. I don't really want to play that game, it's too tiresome. I have found another source for Alexandra Ievleva just now. Let's see what the outcome will be.
But really, I can't do it anymore. Maybe if these were articles I created, I would invest into searching for sources. Now, I just tried a little bit and saw that some people really want to delete these articles for whatever reason. There are a few people actually searching for sources at some nominations, but mostly it's just that old "you go and provide third-party reliable sources independent of the subject, so I can look at them and dismiss them" game.
Okay, people will say I am the bad person here, but I have actually tried to save a couple of articles. I don't understand why people so eagerly want to delete articles than can actually be kept. (Okay, there are mostly interviews and short news about the figure skaters placing here and there or missing some events, but those sources are reliable enough. And one can actually take the sources into account and leave the articles be.)
By the way, I have tried searching on what was once Yandex News, but the news search doesn't work anymore. (Here's an example.) There's nothing prior to 2024 when Yandex sold its assets including the news engine. And I can remember when the list of news articles there went back to 2003 or so... --Moscow Connection (talk) 23:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)- What I’m reading is that you don’t like how AfD works, and there hasn’t been any departure from normal processes. ANI is not the appropriate venue to discuss these issues. HyperAccelerated (talk) 10:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm sorry if this looks like a ramble. These were initially two or three separate replies. --Moscow Connection (talk) 23:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- But there are 45 (!) articles nominated for deletion. I looked at the AfD page and understood that it was physically impossible to do anything. So I decided to bring this situation to the attention of the Misplaced Pages community. It is easy to create 1000 AfD nominations with the same rationale ("Non-notable figure skater"), but even these mere 45 AfD nominations utterly scared me and discouraged me from even looking at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Skating. (I really can't do anything. I have some other articles, the ones I created, that need attention. And I have long "to do" lists that wait for years to be taken care of.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- And @Moscow Connection, you can help by, when the nomination involves a person whose native language is written in non-Latin characters (e.g., Cyrillic or Hebrew), replying in the AfD with a link to the native language web search for that person to help establish the presence or absence of notability support. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 17:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I will slow down on nominations and focus on improving other aspects of the the FS articles, such as updating the infoboxes and tables to conform with our MOS. Bgsu98 (Talk) 17:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Arbitrary break
...editors who believe Misplaced Pages is bloated with biographies of marginally notable athletes
. Just curious if you or anyone else honestly believes that the opinions of these editors takes priority over the view held in the real world that six million articles falls substantially short of "the sum of all human knowledge". One such view published almost five years ago contained the following statement: "According to one estimate, the sum of human knowledge would require 104 million articles". I know some of you are in serious denial and will try to suppress this as a result, but I'm gonna keep saying it anyway. We don't have the sum of all human knowledge, nor are we trying to achieve it. At best, we're the sum of what Google and legacy media has spoon-fed you today within the past X number of years. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions (posted 00:37, January 9, 2025 UTC)
- RadioKAOS, I'm not going to argue about whose "view takes priority" in the area of the sum of human knowledge but in an AFD discussion, decisions are made by determining the consensus of the editors who bothered to show up and present compelling policy-based arguments. That is typically editors who are active on Misplaced Pages and have an opinion about an article, not any scholar coming up with estimates on the necessary number of articles we should have. How many AFDs do you participate in on a regular basis? And there is no one here that who will attempt to "suppress" your argument. As long as you are not personally attacking any editors, I think you are free to have whatever opinions you do have about this project. No penalty. Liz 03:52, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Liz: The problem is that these editors who "bother to show up" don't equally represent the community. Maybe I'm wrong, but there are some people who are mainly active on AfD and who act as "gatekeepers".
A normal editor can easily not notice when a page is nominated for deletion, but the AfD regulars will come and vote "delete".
Also, I wonder how it happened that the NSKATE guidelines were changed so drastically. I think I have found a discussion about that but I am not sure. A user who was tired of people voting "keep per WP:NSPORT", proposed to get rid of the "Misplaced Pages:Notability (sports)" completely. And then there was a discussion with around 70 people attending. But for some reason at least some sports got spared the worst fate (or got out intact), while figure skating was "destroyed". Moreover, the Misplaced Pages:Notability (sports) revision history shows signs of edit warring. So it is just possible that the "deletionists" were the most active/agressive and they won. Some sports wikiprojects defended their sports, and some like WikiProject Figure skating weren't active at the time and didn't do anything. --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:50, 9 January 2025 (UTC)- Moscow Connection, I guess you can choose to call them "gatekeepers" but I consider them dedicated volunteers. The number of editors who participate in AFDs has declined for at least the past two years, so if you can think of a way to get more editors involved, or if you want to help out by spending, let's say, 10 hours a week evaluating articles and sources in AFD deletion discussions, your help would be welcomed. But don't criticize the editors who actually show up and help. Without them, we would only have the opinions of editors who nominate articles for deletion and I'm sure you wouldn't like it if all of those nominated articles were simpy deleted without any feedback at all from other editors. Liz 06:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am not an AfD regular, and what happens there scares me. When I commented, people just bombarded me with "This is not a third-party reliable source independent of the subject", and it didn't look to me like they even knew what "third-party" was. (I could swear my source was third-party and reliable and independent, but they said it was not and bombarded me with some random links to the WP space.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:50, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I had a look at the AfDs you participated in and I think I can explain why there. In this AfD all the links you provided were to sports.ru - these are not independent because sports.ru is the website for the Russian sporting body of whom the subject is a member. They thus don't demonstrate the subject has any independent coverage of their athletic career. I hope this helps. Simonm223 (talk) 14:02, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- You act like some people on AfD who dismiss sources "for the sake of dismissing". Why did even think it was a website for some "Russian sporting body of whom the subject is a member"? It is just a sports news website (a sports portal) like any other. --Moscow Connection (talk) 20:56, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- ru:Sports (сайт). Really, that's quite similar to what happens on AfD. I can go deep into Google Search, spend lots of time, but some people will just say "not third-party" or smth like this. Where do they see that and how do they come to their conclusions? It's a mystery to me. --Moscow Connection (talk) 21:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I had a look at the AfDs you participated in and I think I can explain why there. In this AfD all the links you provided were to sports.ru - these are not independent because sports.ru is the website for the Russian sporting body of whom the subject is a member. They thus don't demonstrate the subject has any independent coverage of their athletic career. I hope this helps. Simonm223 (talk) 14:02, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Liz: The problem is that these editors who "bother to show up" don't equally represent the community. Maybe I'm wrong, but there are some people who are mainly active on AfD and who act as "gatekeepers".
- (nods) Heck, "some authority" came up with canards such as that we all ought to take 10,000 steps a day, drink eight glasses of water a day, and that our basal body temps are all 98.6. I likewise decline to bow before the suspect, threadbare wisdom of "one estimate" that we need 104,000,000 articles ... speaking of serious denial. (grins) Ravenswing 07:15, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Ravenswing:, why are you trying to "repulse" my attemps to save a couple of articles at AfD? First, you came here to defend Bgsu98. And then, you came to the two nominations where I commented, only to wholesale dismiss all the sources I found.
And when I found another source, you said that there were "3 sentences" while there were actually 7.
I've looked at your contributions, you don't look like someone who can read Russian or has any interest in figure skating. So why are you doing this? (Okay, you can have the articles, you won.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:49, 9 January 2025 (UTC)- Please be careful with the WP:ASPERSIONS, Moscow Connection. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay. --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- My 2 cents. In my experience, Bgsu clearly does not conduct BEFORE searches (and seems proud of it), ignores actual coverage of the subjects (even when present in the articles), mass nominates batches of articles (50 in 30 minutes is a hilarious example), consistently fails to adhere to AGF, quickly re-nominates articles when the result is not to their liking, inaccurately summarizes examples of SIGCOV when they are provided in discussions, and tops it off by clearing their XfD logs. JTtheOG (talk) 21:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's a significant number of evidence-free aspersions you're casting, would you like to evidence them? Incidentally, mass-nominating articles isn't necessarily an issue; I have done it in the past but I still examined each article before nominating them in one batch. Black Kite (talk) 21:33, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I do not wish to dig through hundreds of AfDs, no. Just providing what I've gathered in my experience. And I disagree that 50 AfDs in half an hour is not an issue.
- Here is one example of the types of responses you can expect to get when you provide SIGCOV in one of his discussions:
Nobody is going to add anything to this article. The same people pop up on these AFD's, squawk about how someone having their picture taken for their local newspaper qualifies as "significant coverage", and then the article is left in the same crappy condition it was when we started.
JTtheOG (talk) 21:40, 9 January 2025 (UTC)- And here is an example of the nom wholly ignoring GNG and insisting on using deprecated NSPORTS guidelines after SIGCOV was added to the article. Dozens and dozens of more examples. JTtheOG (talk) 21:46, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Another example of ignoring SIGCOV already present in the article. JTtheOG (talk) 21:53, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- @GiantSnowman: @Black Kite: 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 and 7 and 8 and 9 and 10 more examples, all within a week of eachother and many with SIGCOV already present in the article. JTtheOG (talk) 21:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Here is an example from two days ago where they nominated a skater who finished top 4 at the World Championships because they assumed the sources in the article were the only sources available on the subject. JTtheOG (talk) 22:00, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- OK this AFD, coupled with the historical ones, is very concerning. I understand that not every editor is going to be able to find every source, but it appears that Bgsu98 does not even bother looking. I would support a topic ban from AFDs. GiantSnowman 22:03, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Here and here is an example of four users expressing their concerns about BEFORE searches and their misunderstanding of notability policies. More recently, concerns were raised here and here, although bgsu deleted the latter from their talk page with the message
Stay off my talk page. You have some nerve using the term “good will” considering your appalling behavior.
JTtheOG (talk) 22:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC)- And here are More and more and more and more and more and more and more examples of nom ignoring the concept of GNG and/or entirely disregarding SIGCOV already present in the article. As Liz notes here, close to 100 articles were deleted through PROD before I was able to contest them. Many of these that I contested and were later kept in AfDs with clear GNG passes are present among the examples I've given. JTtheOG (talk) 22:19, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks - anything more recent than May 2024? GiantSnowman 22:02, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Here is an example from two days ago where they nominated a skater who finished top 4 at the World Championships because they assumed the sources in the article were the only sources available on the subject. JTtheOG (talk) 22:00, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- @GiantSnowman: @Black Kite: 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 and 7 and 8 and 9 and 10 more examples, all within a week of eachother and many with SIGCOV already present in the article. JTtheOG (talk) 21:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- It would be helpful if you could provide some examples of a) a number of nominations in a short period of time and b) several AFDs where the rationale is deeply flawed. GiantSnowman 21:53, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- If you go to 10 May 2024 here, you get exactly 50 nominations in 30 minutes. A good number of those were kept per AFDstats. BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:03, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Great, thanks - see above, I think we need an AFD topic ban. GiantSnowman 22:04, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- If you go to 10 May 2024 here, you get exactly 50 nominations in 30 minutes. A good number of those were kept per AFDstats. BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:03, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Another example of ignoring SIGCOV already present in the article. JTtheOG (talk) 21:53, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- And here is an example of the nom wholly ignoring GNG and insisting on using deprecated NSPORTS guidelines after SIGCOV was added to the article. Dozens and dozens of more examples. JTtheOG (talk) 21:46, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's a significant number of evidence-free aspersions you're casting, would you like to evidence them? Incidentally, mass-nominating articles isn't necessarily an issue; I have done it in the past but I still examined each article before nominating them in one batch. Black Kite (talk) 21:33, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- My 2 cents. In my experience, Bgsu clearly does not conduct BEFORE searches (and seems proud of it), ignores actual coverage of the subjects (even when present in the articles), mass nominates batches of articles (50 in 30 minutes is a hilarious example), consistently fails to adhere to AGF, quickly re-nominates articles when the result is not to their liking, inaccurately summarizes examples of SIGCOV when they are provided in discussions, and tops it off by clearing their XfD logs. JTtheOG (talk) 21:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay. --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Well, let's start with that I'm a frequent participant at ANI, and I no more "came here to defend" anyone than any other editor who's chimed in here. I dismissed those sources wholesale because I burned some time to look over each and every one of them (as did more than one editor), and found that not a single one of them provided the "significant coverage" in detail to the subjects that the GNG requires. As it happens, I have edited skating articles in the past -- you're not claiming to have truly gone through my whole twenty-year contribution history, are you?
So why am I doing this? Perhaps it's strange to you that anyone could act out of a dispassionate wish to uphold Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, instead of out of partisan motives, but you'll find that most ANI regulars do just that. Ravenswing 21:18, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please be careful with the WP:ASPERSIONS, Moscow Connection. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Ravenswing:, why are you trying to "repulse" my attemps to save a couple of articles at AfD? First, you came here to defend Bgsu98. And then, you came to the two nominations where I commented, only to wholesale dismiss all the sources I found.
- I've participated in a lot of these AfDs, I believe mostly !voting delete, and I've gotta say I am not happy to see it implied that AfD participants were blindly going along with Bgsu. I guarantee that I perform thorough searches on every single AfD I !vote it, especially these mass-noms with essentially no rationale. Bgsu's noms are, for better or worse, fairly accurate and generally result in the deletion of articles that should be deleted. However, I have seen several examples of incivility and assuming bad faith from this user (although I have experienced neither myself) and I agree that the sheer quantity of nominations does not promote a healthy level of community input. The individual noms are generally okay, but mass noms like this one I found today, tried participating in, and gave up on can be a little overwhelming. I doubt this merits any sanctions, but maybe a ratelimit on AfD noms (20 per day?) is called for. Toadspike 22:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I did say a few days ago I wasn't going to engage in this discussion any further but since I keep getting notifications about it I figured I'd weigh in as the conversation seems to have gone in a totally different direction. As @Toadspike and others have pointed out I too am not happy that it is being implied that people who voted in these AFDs are blindly following @Bgsu98 without doing any independent research. I refuted this on the figure skating talk page when this all started and on this page. Also, as has been previously pointed out by other editors, this particular discussion began with @Moscow Connection basically not liking the rules on significant coverage and then coming to this forum to seek retribution against @Bgsu98. Now it seems that their improper use of this forum, ref bombing of articles and general complaining that they don't like something and how unfair it is in their opinion, may actually lead to them getting what they want. This sets a very poor precedent that if you don't like something on Misplaced Pages and you jump up and down and wail about it enough you can get your way. Yes @Bgsu98 probably nominates too many similar articles at one time but they have agreed to slow down now, and yes they have nominated articles for AFD that have then been kept because significant coverage was found, but they have also nominated a lot of articles which have not been found to have significant coverage and have subsequently been deleted following the due, consensus based procedure and closed as such by an admin. @Moscow Connection is already seeking to have articles which have been deleted following AFDs unilaterally reopened. If you now sanction @Bgsu98 we may as well just give Jimmy Wales a call and ask him to hand over Misplaced Pages to the whims and wants of @Moscow Connection Shrug02 (talk) 23:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I haven't asked anybody to give Misplaced Pages over to me. What do you mean by "unilaterally reopened"? If you are refering to me asking Star Mississippi to undelete the "Lilia Biktagirova" article, what's wrong with it? It was deleted without a proper Google search, and I have found some sources for her. Just look at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lilia Biktagirova. At the very end, a user that goes by the name of Kvng, noticed:
No one in this discussion (including myself) has mentioned anything about searching for coverage that may satisfy WP:GNG
, but that was all, no one did anything. You and another user seem to have claimed here that you do a proper search on every Bgsu98's nomination, but I don't see you on that AfD page.
You really sound like you think I'm doing something awful in my attempt to rescue an article. Come on, she's not someone terrible who wants to promote herself on Misplaced Pages or something. She's just a fairly famous figure skater. You don't need to defend Misplaced Pages from her. --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC) - I've decided to save "Alexandra Ievleva" (Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Alexandra Ievleva) and I've already found a couple of dozen articles talking about her. Yes, maybe the others will say those are mostly interviews and the Women's Sport website is not good enough, but I have found lots and lots about her! I don't think you or Bgsu98 would be able to do that cause you don't read Russian and don't know how to search (I tried to add different additional key words, and every time I found something new). --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- 1 you don't know if I read Russian, Chinese, Martian or what, 2 now you say I "don't know how to search" which is yet another unfounded suggestion that I don't make any effort before giving opinions on AFDs, 3 you don't know what searches were done on Lilia Biktagirova and neither do I, 4 I wasn't involved in that discussion and I try to focus more on adding to articles then deleting them, 5 my point was, and is, you don't like the rules so you have launched a campaign of complaining to try to get your way instead of going through the proper channels and seeking to get consensus to alter said rules. Frankly I'm tired of this and of you belittling everyone else as if you are the only person who knows what is right and are somehow able to read the minds and intentions of everyone else. Go ahead and, as you put it, "save" your Russian skaters. I genuinely hope you do and that the articles are filled with interesting and well-sourced information. That's the aim of Misplaced Pages to inform the population about things worth knowing. Shrug02 (talk) 00:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- "
You don't know if I read Russian, Chinese, Martian or what
"
— What I do is called abductive reasoning. What you just did by claiming you can read Martian, I honestly don't know.
I've started this discussion because I saw the user's 45 nominations at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Skating and that scared me a lot. --Moscow Connection (talk) 01:00, 10 January 2025 (UTC)- It's called ironic humour and, with everything going on in the world right now, if a Misplaced Pages AFD scared you a lot then you are obviously in the very fortunate position to have so few worries. Anyway I'm moving on to spend my time more productively. I sincerely wish you the best in your endeavours. Shrug02 (talk) 01:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- "
- 1 you don't know if I read Russian, Chinese, Martian or what, 2 now you say I "don't know how to search" which is yet another unfounded suggestion that I don't make any effort before giving opinions on AFDs, 3 you don't know what searches were done on Lilia Biktagirova and neither do I, 4 I wasn't involved in that discussion and I try to focus more on adding to articles then deleting them, 5 my point was, and is, you don't like the rules so you have launched a campaign of complaining to try to get your way instead of going through the proper channels and seeking to get consensus to alter said rules. Frankly I'm tired of this and of you belittling everyone else as if you are the only person who knows what is right and are somehow able to read the minds and intentions of everyone else. Go ahead and, as you put it, "save" your Russian skaters. I genuinely hope you do and that the articles are filled with interesting and well-sourced information. That's the aim of Misplaced Pages to inform the population about things worth knowing. Shrug02 (talk) 00:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I haven't asked anybody to give Misplaced Pages over to me. What do you mean by "unilaterally reopened"? If you are refering to me asking Star Mississippi to undelete the "Lilia Biktagirova" article, what's wrong with it? It was deleted without a proper Google search, and I have found some sources for her. Just look at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lilia Biktagirova. At the very end, a user that goes by the name of Kvng, noticed:
- I appreciate your input and insight. As I told BeanieFan11 earlier, I promised to slow down on nominations, and in fact, I had decided that I wouldn't even entertain the idea of additional nominations until the ones already in the system work their way through.
I can also promise to strive to be more thorough in researching these potential nominations and provide more detailed rationales in the future. I am also fine with any limitations that the community requests in terms of numbers of nominations. Twenty per day seems awfully high; I was thinking more like two! Bgsu98 (Talk) 23:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)- Sorry, Bgsu, I completely missed that you had committed to slowing down. I think that's a great idea that resolves the issue here. Just remember, when you get frustrated by other editors, do your best to stay polite – if you can't, simply step away from the keyboard for a moment. I don't want to see you get in trouble for one too many snarky comments. Toadspike 09:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- 20 nominations per day is 7300 per year. The limit should be more like 0. (And if it is decided to be 1 or something like that, Bgsu98 will have to demonstrate that he has searched for sources every time. I prefer 0, naturally.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:16, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- A limit of 0 is asinine, and I highly suggest you strike this comment. — The Hand That Feeds You: 18:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah, agreed - really not helping move away from the comments above the MC is here because they don't like AFD. GiantSnowman 18:57, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- A limit of 0 is asinine, and I highly suggest you strike this comment. — The Hand That Feeds You: 18:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- While I do not know whether @Bgsu98 should be restricted from AfD as I haven't been able to go into the weeds on this, I disagree with
I doubt this merits any sanctions, but maybe a ratelimit on AfD noms (20 per day?) is called for.
@Toadspike. No editor should be nominating 20 articles per day. That's unsustainable for AfD participants, clerks or closers. We do not have the editor volume to assess that many nominations from one nominator. Star Mississippi 00:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)- 20 per day is a lot, but given the numbers thrown around above (50 in 30 minutes) I figured it would be a massive improvement. But since Bgsu has committed to nominating far fewer articles with
Twenty per day seems awfully high; I was thinking more like two!
I suppose the whole discussion is moot. Toadspike 11:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)- I don't think it's that easy. The question is who will check all the hundreds or thousands of his previous nominations. Definitely not me. (I've looked through several active ones, found some sources, commented here and there, and got very tired.)
As I have commented below, when problems were found with Sander.v.Ginkel's articles, he was told to go through all his articles and check them. (Actually, there was a user who volunteered to help, but that user was revealed to be Sander.v.Ginkel himself, cause no one in their right mind would have volunteered to check 40000 articles. I, personally, don't want to be a slave and don't want to check Bgsu98's past nominations, especially knowing how little effort he put into creating them and that I would have to spend years looking for sources.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 11:29, 10 January 2025 (UTC)- It's a volunteer project. Someone may choose to, as you did initially, or no one will. But unless they're salted, there's nothing prohibiting restoration to drafts if WP:SIRS can be found. We can fix going forward but can't always fix what happened before even when there's a collaborative effort. Star Mississippi 13:40, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think it's that easy. The question is who will check all the hundreds or thousands of his previous nominations. Definitely not me. (I've looked through several active ones, found some sources, commented here and there, and got very tired.)
- 20 per day is a lot, but given the numbers thrown around above (50 in 30 minutes) I figured it would be a massive improvement. But since Bgsu has committed to nominating far fewer articles with
- I did say a few days ago I wasn't going to engage in this discussion any further but since I keep getting notifications about it I figured I'd weigh in as the conversation seems to have gone in a totally different direction. As @Toadspike and others have pointed out I too am not happy that it is being implied that people who voted in these AFDs are blindly following @Bgsu98 without doing any independent research. I refuted this on the figure skating talk page when this all started and on this page. Also, as has been previously pointed out by other editors, this particular discussion began with @Moscow Connection basically not liking the rules on significant coverage and then coming to this forum to seek retribution against @Bgsu98. Now it seems that their improper use of this forum, ref bombing of articles and general complaining that they don't like something and how unfair it is in their opinion, may actually lead to them getting what they want. This sets a very poor precedent that if you don't like something on Misplaced Pages and you jump up and down and wail about it enough you can get your way. Yes @Bgsu98 probably nominates too many similar articles at one time but they have agreed to slow down now, and yes they have nominated articles for AFD that have then been kept because significant coverage was found, but they have also nominated a lot of articles which have not been found to have significant coverage and have subsequently been deleted following the due, consensus based procedure and closed as such by an admin. @Moscow Connection is already seeking to have articles which have been deleted following AFDs unilaterally reopened. If you now sanction @Bgsu98 we may as well just give Jimmy Wales a call and ask him to hand over Misplaced Pages to the whims and wants of @Moscow Connection Shrug02 (talk) 23:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Of note. User JTtheOG is canvassing apparent like-minded editors to this discussion, here and here. Zaathras (talk) 23:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- They are not like-minded actually. In fact, both had previously expressed they disagreed with my initial assertions, which I had not yet provided evidence for. I was notifying them of examples being provided here of previously unsubstantiated aspersions. JTtheOG (talk) 23:44, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- "As per previous discussions..." I love hearing that JTtheOG is having discussions about me with other users, but has never once attempted to communicate directly to me. (Snide comments in AFD's don't count as broaching conversation.) Bgsu98 (Talk) 00:11, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- If even that's true, no none came. (No one of the whole two.) And Bgsu98 did the same by pinging his like-minded AfD colleague. (He pinged him immediately.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:21, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- They are not like-minded actually. In fact, both had previously expressed they disagreed with my initial assertions, which I had not yet provided evidence for. I was notifying them of examples being provided here of previously unsubstantiated aspersions. JTtheOG (talk) 23:44, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- As a fellow WP:FIGURE participant, and without having gone over the particular cases, I am normally a rather deletion-oriented editor but am an inclusionist for skating specifically as sources are not as online on this topic as usual, and often in foreign languages, so I am not usually in favor of deleting a skater's article unless we really do exhaust all possible sources of notability. I do request that @Bgsu98: convene a broader discussion over notability as I also do disagree with the current guidelines, but even without that a discussion is warranted. Even if a mass deletion is warranted, it should be handled in one mass AfD, not a gazillion separate ones.--Jasper Deng (talk) 01:11, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I came across this randomly in my watchlist.. can I recommend everyone take a step back and focus on the issue at hand? Currently, WP:BEFORE states the following:
Search for additional sources, if the main concern is notability: The minimum search expected is a normal Google search, a Google Books search, a Google News search, and a Google News archive search; Google Scholar is suggested for academic subjects.
So, I'd ask @Moscow Connection: to please consider whether their views on BEFORE are in line with what it actually says. I appreciate that MC states many of these nominated articles are for non-English speaking and in some cases non-Western world skaters, and so it may not be possible to find many of the potential sources in an English language Google search.But MC, can you identify any deletion nominations for which there were sources that could be found in any of the following: a normal Google search, or a Google Books search, or a Google News search, or a Google News archive search? If you can identify such, please provide the deletion discussion, and a link or other method of showing us how you came across the sources on one of those searches. If you can't, then it sounds like your argument is more for expanding WP:BEFORE to require non-English language searches for non-English subjects. I take no strong view on whether it would be a good idea - I think that BEFORE should certainly recommend more far reaching searches for subjects who may not be satisfied by a Google search.. but required? Not everyone knows how to use other search engines, and they may not even know what terms to use (or be able to type them easily). And that doesn't even begin to touch the big problem with Google - Google results (if you're logged in, at least), are significantly based on your search history, and if you use Google Chrome browser (on mobile or PC), or the Android OS, they are also based on your usage of those platforms (such as websites visited, apps used, etc). So it's entirely possible that MC searching Google may see a result on the first page or two that someone else searching Google would not have seen on the first couple pages at all.Regardless, that's an argument/discussion to be had on another page (likely WP:VPP). Since this all seems to be a misconstruing of BEFORE by MC, and assuming everyone involved tones down the rhetoric, I'd recommend this move towards a reminder to MC that BEFORE, as it stands now, does not require anything beyond a Google (and Google News and Google Books) to be searched, and until that changes, the mere fact sources exist on other search engines does not constitute a violation of BEFORE unless there is evidence they would've been found through those search means. And I recommend that MC (or anyone, really) starts a discussion at the appropriate place if they think changes to BEFORE are necessary. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 01:20, 10 January 2025 (UTC)- I read this and tried to search some names from AfD on Google Books. A search for Nicole Nönnig's name definitely returns something non-trivial: ("Nicole Nönnig kehrte allerdings nach kurzer Pause zurück . Mit Matthias Bleyer bildete sie ein Paar , das 2003 sogar internationale Wettbewerbe bestritt . Die Schlittschuhe haben Nicole und Matthias inzwischen jedoch an den Nagel ..."). --Moscow Connection (talk) 01:36, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'll leave this to others to discuss, but this is the type of "evidence" you would be expected to produce to show that the user did not comply with BEFORE. That said, one instance of mention in a book does not meet WP:GNG, so unless you can show that there are multiple instances of significant coverage in reliable sources that would've been found on a BEFORE, then it still doesn't mean that the user did not do a valid BEFORE. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 01:41, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Here's a link to the book: . (I've tried and tried, but I don't know how to add "bks" to the Google Books search URL.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 01:45, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- A search for "李宣潼" on Google News returned this article: and a couple more. The one I linked looks very solid, it is a full-fledged biography. (The AfD discussion is here: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Li Xuantong. As usual, the rationale is:
Non-notable figure skater; no senior-level medal placements.
) --Moscow Connection (talk) 02:13, 10 January 2025 (UTC) - And one more article → about Li Xuantong and her partner Wang Xinkang (also nominated for deletion by Bgsu98). It's like a print magazine article + interview, looks "massive". --Moscow Connection (talk) 02:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Another example: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Kim Yu-jae.
A simple Google News search for "김유재 2009" returns a lot. I didn't look too far, but I found two lengthy articles about her and her twin sister on the first page (, ) and voted "keep".
(I would also note that there are already some AfD regulars present in that discussion. But no one has googled her name.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 03:59, 10 January 2025 (UTC) - OMG, Bgsu98 nominated her sister for deletion, too: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Kim Yu-seong. He nominated her on January 1, and no one has commented since. (Okay, I'll vote now and save her.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 04:03, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- You do realize there’s a difference between an article about a person and the person themselves? You’re not saving anyone here. You are a volunteer Misplaced Pages editor, not a volunteer firefighter. HyperAccelerated (talk) 06:21, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- @HyperAccelerated: Did it sound strange or silly? Sure, I understand the difference. But people do say "article's notability" when it's actually "the notability of an article's subject". I thought that an article and its subject are interchangeable in colloquial wikispeech. --Moscow Connection (talk) 06:29, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- You do realize there’s a difference between an article about a person and the person themselves? You’re not saving anyone here. You are a volunteer Misplaced Pages editor, not a volunteer firefighter. HyperAccelerated (talk) 06:21, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'll leave this to others to discuss, but this is the type of "evidence" you would be expected to produce to show that the user did not comply with BEFORE. That said, one instance of mention in a book does not meet WP:GNG, so unless you can show that there are multiple instances of significant coverage in reliable sources that would've been found on a BEFORE, then it still doesn't mean that the user did not do a valid BEFORE. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 01:41, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I read this and tried to search some names from AfD on Google Books. A search for Nicole Nönnig's name definitely returns something non-trivial: ("Nicole Nönnig kehrte allerdings nach kurzer Pause zurück . Mit Matthias Bleyer bildete sie ein Paar , das 2003 sogar internationale Wettbewerbe bestritt . Die Schlittschuhe haben Nicole und Matthias inzwischen jedoch an den Nagel ..."). --Moscow Connection (talk) 01:36, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I know the entire thing is a bit of a long read, but I would like to note that Bgsu98's tendency to make XFDs without any regard for GNG/BASIC - even for those where GNG/BASIC is met (1, 2, 3) - dates back to May 2022. In fact, last year I issued a warning on their talk page (which they then deleted) that this issue was creating more work for editors, but this is still continuing as of late. There seems to be an IDHT issue with WP:NOTBURO. ミラP@Miraclepine 02:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Alright, trying to defuse the situation more. @Bgsu98: It appears that MC has been able to provide at least two examples for which there are multiple examples of potentially significant coverage in reliable sources independent of the subject. And another user has identified at least 3 other AfDs in which sources were quickly found by other users. Yes, some of them (such as MC's examples) were found by Google searching the non-Latin alphabet version of the subject's name, but nothing in BEFORE suggests that searching only the subject's Latin name is appropriate. And it appears that these sources are all found with a quick Google search of the subject's name in the non-Latin script. Can you explain why you did not find these sources, or why, if you did find these sources, you did not identify them at the AfD discussion and/or did not consider them sufficient for GNG? -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 04:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- What do you think of the limitations on nominating articles that User:Bgsu98 already stated they were willing to adopt? It's higher up in this discussion. Liz 05:17, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I spent a good 30-45 minutes reading this discussion before I made my first comment attempting to defuse this. I do not think that a voluntary restriction is going to be a good thing here, unless it is given the enforceability that a consensus here can give. I initially was concerned that EC was making this report with a poor understanding of BEFORE. But given that EC (and another editor) has/have now provided multiple examples of Google searches that show, at least at first glance, one or more sources that meet GNG for their related articles, I think there is ample evidence that Bgsu98 is violating BEFORE. I don't particularly care why they're violating BEFORE, but I would support waiting for their explanation regardless.If Bgsu98 is unable to provide any legitimate explanation for the at least 3 cases that have been identified now as having clear sources in the searches required by BEFORE, I would support a restriction on nominating articles for deletion in any way (PROD or AfD, or otherwise) since they cannot be trusted to follow BEFORE before they do so.All of that said, I think this should be moved to a subsection - starting with EC and Miraclepine's reports of specific cases. I stepped in as what you may call an inclusionist, thinking I'd be in support of sanctions immediately, but this is a complicated situation, and to be blunt, everything above my comment seems to have led nowhere. At the same time, I support giving Bgsu98 a chance to respond explaining why their BEFORE search was sufficient, before any sanctions are issued. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 05:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've provided some 20 examples as well. JTtheOG (talk) 05:36, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would say: "Not before Bgsu98 goes through all his previous nominations and his PRODs and searches for sources for them." He probably deleted (okay, "nominated") hundreds of pages, he did enough damage and now should work on fixing it. --Moscow Connection (talk) 05:43, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's not too helpful right now, man. No one can be forced to do anything. JTtheOG (talk) 07:38, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't propose to force anyone. But I have just came across a Sander.v.Ginkel unblock request and remembered how he was told to go through all the articles he had created and check/fix them before creating more. We have a similar situation here, I think. --Moscow Connection (talk) 07:45, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Articles that should not have been deleted have been kept by consensus at AfD. This is how AfD works. They are in the exact same state that they were before they were nominated, perhaps even better by WP: HEY. No “damage” has occurred. Additionally, if you think an article has been deleted when it shouldn’t, it is your responsibility to bring your concerns to DRV. This does not change just because you made a thread at ANI. You do not get to pick and choose which policies apply to whom. HyperAccelerated (talk) 18:12, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Bgsu has already agreed to limit their nominations to a couple a day. This is a far stricter constraint than what could have probably been reached by consensus. What more do you want? For reasons I don’t understand, your response to this is “the limit should be more like 0” without any grounding in policy. As I see it, Bgsu is plainly negotiating in good faith, while your behavior is bordering on bullying. HyperAccelerated (talk) 18:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- @HyperAccelerated has hit the nail on the head. This discussion should have been tossed immediately or at least closed down well before now. The early responses were that this was a content dispute not appropriate for ANI then the OP kept going with rapid fire posts and a few editors who appear to have a pre-existing axe to grind with @Bgsu98 revved it up into what it has become. As a side note it will be very interesting to see how the outstanding AFDs are adjudicated and by whom. Shrug02 (talk) 18:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't propose to force anyone. But I have just came across a Sander.v.Ginkel unblock request and remembered how he was told to go through all the articles he had created and check/fix them before creating more. We have a similar situation here, I think. --Moscow Connection (talk) 07:45, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's not too helpful right now, man. No one can be forced to do anything. JTtheOG (talk) 07:38, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I spent a good 30-45 minutes reading this discussion before I made my first comment attempting to defuse this. I do not think that a voluntary restriction is going to be a good thing here, unless it is given the enforceability that a consensus here can give. I initially was concerned that EC was making this report with a poor understanding of BEFORE. But given that EC (and another editor) has/have now provided multiple examples of Google searches that show, at least at first glance, one or more sources that meet GNG for their related articles, I think there is ample evidence that Bgsu98 is violating BEFORE. I don't particularly care why they're violating BEFORE, but I would support waiting for their explanation regardless.If Bgsu98 is unable to provide any legitimate explanation for the at least 3 cases that have been identified now as having clear sources in the searches required by BEFORE, I would support a restriction on nominating articles for deletion in any way (PROD or AfD, or otherwise) since they cannot be trusted to follow BEFORE before they do so.All of that said, I think this should be moved to a subsection - starting with EC and Miraclepine's reports of specific cases. I stepped in as what you may call an inclusionist, thinking I'd be in support of sanctions immediately, but this is a complicated situation, and to be blunt, everything above my comment seems to have led nowhere. At the same time, I support giving Bgsu98 a chance to respond explaining why their BEFORE search was sufficient, before any sanctions are issued. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 05:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- What do you think of the limitations on nominating articles that User:Bgsu98 already stated they were willing to adopt? It's higher up in this discussion. Liz 05:17, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose any sanctions to Bgsu98. I did a spot-check of some of the more contentious AfDs and, honestly, the keep !votes did not provide a compelling argument to keep in any of those cases. As I mentioned to Moscow Connection above, for example, they provided six links to one of the subjects - and every single link was in the sports.ru domain which is not independent and does not establish notability for a Russian athlete. It's very unfortunate that so many editors here have expressed either distain for or fear of the AfD process, which is integral to the quality of this project and which I would heartily encourage more editors to participate in. And I can assure those people with misconceptions that many AfDs conclude with an article being kept or with no consensus - which is a de-facto keep. The sum of all human knowledge is a lofty goal. But one philosophical point I would ask extreme inclusionists to consider is that there is a difference between knowledge and data. AfD is a process whereby we distinguish between knowledge and data according to criteria - imperfect criteria surely but criteria - which we agreed to as participants in this project. We shouldn't be punishing a person for efficiently doing a hard job just because it's one that has a side-effect of upsetting people. Simonm223 (talk) 19:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- In case it was not already clear I too Oppose sanctions against @Bgsu98. They should be given the chance to prove they will stick to their pledge to slow down on AFD nominations. Also sanctioning them will set a precedent for others who are unhappy with AFD proceeses and outcomes to seek similar sanctions against other nominators and could well have the effect of putting many people off participating in the process for fear of retribution when in fact it would be better if more people took part. Shrug02 (talk) 20:12, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Whereas I support some kind of restriction on the number of AFDs they can start per day. GiantSnowman 20:16, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I offered up self-imposed restrictions above, including the caveat that there would be no further skating nominations until the ones currently in the system work their way through. According to my log, my last nomination was January 7th. As more contentious AFD's can sometimes take up to a month to process, that should allow for sufficient time. Bgsu98 (Talk) 20:33, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- To be fair, your log is regularly cleared, including your most recent nomination. JTtheOG (talk) 20:58, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Once an AFD is settled, I remove it. What's the problem? The log shows active AFD's only. Bgsu98 (Talk) 21:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- To be fair, your log is regularly cleared, including your most recent nomination. JTtheOG (talk) 20:58, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I offered up self-imposed restrictions above, including the caveat that there would be no further skating nominations until the ones currently in the system work their way through. According to my log, my last nomination was January 7th. As more contentious AFD's can sometimes take up to a month to process, that should allow for sufficient time. Bgsu98 (Talk) 20:33, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Whereas I support some kind of restriction on the number of AFDs they can start per day. GiantSnowman 20:16, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- In case it was not already clear I too Oppose sanctions against @Bgsu98. They should be given the chance to prove they will stick to their pledge to slow down on AFD nominations. Also sanctioning them will set a precedent for others who are unhappy with AFD proceeses and outcomes to seek similar sanctions against other nominators and could well have the effect of putting many people off participating in the process for fear of retribution when in fact it would be better if more people took part. Shrug02 (talk) 20:12, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- How about Bgsu98 just agrees to not nominate more than, I don't know, two articles per day (based on their comment
I am also fine with any limitations that the community requests in terms of numbers of nominations. Twenty per day seems awfully high; I was thinking more like two!
) and we end the discussion? BeanieFan11 (talk) 21:02, 10 January 2025 (UTC)- @BeanieFan11 I second this proposal. Shrug02 (talk) 21:20, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- We should definitely end it. I'm not an admin but that seems more than fair. JTtheOG (talk) 21:46, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Two a day is fine by me. GiantSnowman 22:15, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- We should definitely end it. I'm not an admin but that seems more than fair. JTtheOG (talk) 21:46, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think there should be a requirement for him to show some sources he has found. (In every nomination. If there aren't any, then a link to a Google search query can suffice.)
Cause I've seen him lately on some figure skater articles in my watchlist, and I don't see him adding any references ever. It looks like his edits are purely technical. (As well as his nominations.) He doesn't really add to the encyclopedic content, just updates scores and changes the table formatting. (And nominates for deletion.)
Does he ever search the net? That's the question. Has it happened even once that he wanted to delete an article and then found a source for it, added the source and went away? --Moscow Connection (talk) 21:29, 10 January 2025 (UTC)- Wow. Mister "I would also like to note that I am polite" is again denigrating others' work, as if adding scores and formatting tables to meet Misplaced Pages's MOS is unimportant. "He doesn't really add to the encyclopedic content." Yep, very polite. Bgsu98 (Talk) 22:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- And, as I've said, one should also search in the skater's native language. And for Russian figure skaters, Google doesn't work, you need Yandex. (And Yandex is not good as a search engine, some effort is needed to find anything. The major sports websites have profiles for everyone, you need to find the needed profile and go from there. It sounds too complicated, but that's how it is.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 21:30, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also, he doesn't appear to know how to use the Internet Archive. The Matthias Bleyer article had a good reference, I found it in the archive. His nomination (Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Matthias Bleyer) doesn't mention the reference, like if it doesn't exist. Maybe he didn't even look at the references section. --Moscow Connection (talk) 22:10, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- What I mean is that he should be required to show some sources he has found and to explain why these sources do not suffice. (After all, if he nominates an article, then obviously he doesn't find the coverage sufficient.)
There's always something. (Almost always.) But since he nominates mostly skaters who have finished their careers, the number of potential sources (news articles) found on the internet shouldn't be big. There are usually just a few. --Moscow Connection (talk) 22:10, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- @BeanieFan11 I second this proposal. Shrug02 (talk) 21:20, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Smm380 and logged out editing
- Smm380 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- 195.238.112.0/20 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · block user · block log)
I have warned this editor twice about logged out editing because they are evidently editing the article history of Ukraine both logged in and as an IP. This makes tracking their edits more difficult since they have made hundreds altogether in recent months (and they are only focused on this specific article). The IP edits seem to come from 195.238.112.0/20 (at least most of them) and they are often made shortly before/after Smm380 decides to log back in. See for example this edit by Smm380 and this edit by the IP a few minutes later regarding the same section. This is now especially a problem because they are deciding to make reverts as an IP.
In general, they have not listened to prior warnings. I have given them multiple warnings about adding unsourced text, but they are still continuing to add unsourced text without including citations first. But they have not responded to any of my warnings or explained why they are still doing this. Mellk (talk) 09:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I noticed the concerns raised regarding edits made both from my account and an IP address, and I’d like to clarify that this was neither intentional nor malicious. I simply forgot to log into my account while making those edits.
- I apologize if this caused any confusion. My sole intention was to improve content related to Ukrainian history, a topic I am deeply passionate about.
- Regarding the delayed response to your messages, I sincerely apologize. I hadn’t noticed the notifications until recently, as I was unfamiliar with how Misplaced Pages’s messaging system works. Now that I understand it better, I’ll ensure to respond more promptly in the future.
- I truly appreciate the valuable work you do to maintain the quality and reliability of Misplaced Pages. I will make sure to contribute responsibly and stay logged in during my future edits. Smm380 (talk) 16:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Another not here IP
Blocked. - The Bushranger One ping only 03:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
2601:18C:8183:D410:1D8C:39C9:DCEE:1166 (talk · contribs) is altering another users posts to insert political commentary ] as well as making PA's, with a clear statement they do not intend to stop ], and edit warring over it as well. Slatersteven (talk) 14:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Now past 3rr reinsertion of their alteration of another users post. So its now vandalism. Slatersteven (talk) 14:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
As well as this tit for tat report ]. Slatersteven (talk) 14:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- IP blocked for edit warring. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Heritage Foundation planning to doxx editors
Closing to prevent a split discussion. The most central discussion about this is currently held at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Heritage Foundation intending to "identify and target" editors. —Alalch E. 22:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
See current discussion on Heritage Foundation talkpage. Various sources are beginning to report on this, see , . It seems they plan to “identify and target Misplaced Pages editors abusing their position by analyzing text patterns, usernames, and technical data through data breach analysis, fingerprinting, HUMINT, and technical targeting,” and “engage curated sock puppet accounts to reveal patterns and provoke reactions, information disclosure,” and “push specific topics to expose more identity-related details.” An IP user on the discussion page says "they intend to add malicious links (sources) that will set cookies, grab your IP, and get tracking going for your device. This has likely already started. Be careful, there are lots of ways to hide where a link goes." Photos of Japan (talk) 17:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think there's a far more productive discussion going on at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Heritage Foundation intending to "identify and target" editors. BusterD (talk) 17:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- A friendly reminder: It's always a good time to review the strength and age of account passwords, plus consider two-factor verification. The world is constantly changing... BusterD (talk) 17:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Isn't doxing a federal/punishable offense in ten states (more or less), including DC? If they grab the information of or out a minor, that can easily be taken on as a form of harassment and won't end well. EF 17:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- No doubt the Trump adminstration will make pursuing such cases a high priority. EEng 22:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm unsure why this isn't a WMF issue, due to potential legal and safeguarding issues. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- The WMF has been made aware. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 19:56, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Truffle457
Editor blocked indefinitely. Liz 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Truffle457 (talk · contribs)
"Murad I the ruler of the Ottoman Turks seems to have been a blasphemous person"
I don't even know what to call this. This user has few edits but most are like this. Beshogur (talk) 22:15, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is a new user with only a single level I notice on their page. I've issued a level II caution for using talk pages as a forum and added a welcome template. If this persists, stronger measures may be needed. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Beshogur, I'd advise talking with an editor, through words, not templates, before filing a complaint at ANI. That's a general recommendation unless there is active vandalism going on. Liz 22:53, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- His comments are disturbing tbh. Beshogur (talk) 22:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- The user's response to Ad Orientem's warning demonstrates that they have no insight into their misconduct and are WP:NOTHERE.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Indeffed per WP:CIR. -Ad Orientem (talk) 23:48, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Well, by having a conversation, you discerned that CIR applied. Some communication, I think, is better than silence at least when you are trying to make sense of an unclear situation. Liz 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
YZ357980, second complaint
I have again reverted YZ357980's insertion of an image of dubious copyright; change of Somali Armed Forces native-name to an incorrect format; and violation of MOS:INFOBOXFLAG at Somali Armed Forces - see ] which had another editor fix the incorrect file format. I believe this editor is WP:NOTHERE and not willing to communicate and I would request administrator attention to this matter. Kind regards Buckshot06 (talk) 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- For the record, that image has been on Commons since 2015 and was made by a different user. That said, YZ357980 continues to make these borderline disruptive edits and has never posted on an article talk page or a user talk page. I've pblocked them from articlespace until communication improves, as it is not optional. - The Bushranger One ping only 07:51, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- 1. Thankyou!! Much appreciated!!
- 2. Yes I was aware of the status of those images, but I repeatedly told YZ357980 that it was of borderline copyright and WP had to follow US copyright law. I have managed to get the equivalent Iraqi ones deleted; I will go after the Somali ones to try to get them deleted.
- 3. Someone (an anon IP) posted on his talkapage as if replying, see . Please feel free to reconsider your actions should you wish, but I continue to believe YZ357980 is NOTHERE. Buckshot06 (talk) 18:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Given this which is clearly YZ not logged in, the block has been changed to full indef. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:01, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
My reverted edit at List of Famicom Disk System games
At worst, this deserves a {{minnow}}. This is, at heart, a content dispute, and Talk:List of Famicom Disk System games is the place to discuss it. - The Bushranger One ping only 07:44, 9 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hi
I added {{clear}} to the top of table of List of Famicom Disk System games to make the table use the whole horizontal space. I did it according to other list of video games articles and reception section of some video games articles to help the table list look better or not reception table to conflict with references (double column references more specifically).
However @NakhlaMan: reverted my edit and with a rude language called it "UGLIER" and calls it waste of too much space.
With my edit, it adds just a small space to the top of list heading but the table could be read easier and uses the whole available space. Shkuru Afshar (talk) 04:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think this is the right place for this. Yes, the user could have been much nicer on their opinion, but this is too much of an escalation, too fast. I would advise commenting on their talk page, or on the page talk page. Cheers, Heart 04:18, 9 January 2025 (UTC) (Non-administrator comment)
- Yes, their edit summary was mildly rude, but this is not actionable, please open a discussion on the article's talk page. Isaidnoway (talk) 04:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
Edit War in Korean clans of foreign origin
Ger2024 blocked as a sock.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User: Ger2024
Ger2024 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Ger2024 has been Misplaced Pages:Edit warring and violated WP:3RR (they have as of now made five reverts) and possibly WP:NPOV despite my direct requests asking them to not engage in an edit war and to instead discuss with me and @CountHacker on the Talk Page. While they did respond to my efforts to try to talk to them on the Talk Page, they immediately then reverted my edits after they made their comments. The initial edits started when another Misplaced Pages user was verifying and deleting some info on the page (likely for factual accuracy) when the reverts began.
In regards to WP:NPOV, there is a POV push, despite the multiple corrections both I and @CountHacker have issued. We notified the user that the same source they are using from is generally considered historically unreliable because it is a collection of folklore and legends (the source, while a valuable insight into Korean folklore, claims that the founder of the Korean kingdom of Silla was born from a literal Golden Egg, so cannot be taken to be factual because humans cannot be born from Golden Eggs).
Despite trying to talk to them, they are just ignoring my and CountHackers actual points, and we even had more discussion but they just made their fifth revert.
- This report belongs at WP:ANEW. Heart 05:39, 9 January 2025 (UTC) (Non-administrator comment)
- Who posted this complaint, they didn't leave a signature which, to me, shows a lack of experience. They also didn't leave any diffs so it's impossible to judge if there were indeed reverts. And as HeartGlow states, this is more suitable for ANEW which focuses on edit-warring. Liz 08:05, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Unclear if genuine question or rhetorical, but in case it's the former, it seems to be User:Sunnyediting99. (They have over 1000 edits and have been editing since 2022, but it appears they may be used to using the Reply tool, which might explain why they didn't think to ~~~~ since replying in that manner does that automatically? I think? ...Not trying to excuse it so much as I'm trying to understand it.) - Purplewowies (talk) 08:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry about that, I was a bit sleep deprived when I made, I'll go to WP:ANEW.
- And yea im way too used to the reply tool, i think i make these posts like once perhaps every few months so i got a bit rusty on this. Thanks! Sunnyediting99 (talk) 13:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Unclear if genuine question or rhetorical, but in case it's the former, it seems to be User:Sunnyediting99. (They have over 1000 edits and have been editing since 2022, but it appears they may be used to using the Reply tool, which might explain why they didn't think to ~~~~ since replying in that manner does that automatically? I think? ...Not trying to excuse it so much as I'm trying to understand it.) - Purplewowies (talk) 08:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
Subtle vandalism by 8.40.247.4
Excellent report results in a two-year block. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:57, 9 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- 8.40.247.4 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Since early 2020, User:8.40.247.4 has consistently and subtly made edits that:
- minimize achievements and contributions of black people in American society
- obscure or soften wording about right-wing and far-right leanings of conservative figures
- promote fringe, racist, or pseudo-scientific theories
The IP generally attempts to disguise the edits by lying about changes made in the edit summary. Here is a list of problem edits in chronological order:
| Date | Page | Issue |
|---|---|---|
| Mar 4, 2020 | McComb, Mississippi (diff) |
|
| May 31, 2020 | John Derbyshire (diff) |
|
| Jul 21, 2020 | Richard Hayne (diff) |
|
| Jul 28, 2020 | Louie Gohmert (diff) |
|
| Sep 24, 2020 | Back-to-Africa movement (diff) |
|
| Jan 14, 2021 | Virginia Dare (diff) |
|
| Apr 28, 2021 | Bret Stephens (diff) |
|
| June 25, 2021 | John Gabriel Stedman (diff) |
|
| Oct 7, 2021 | Appalachian music (diff) |
|
| Nov 27, 2021 | Steve Sailer (diff) |
|
| Jan 26, 2022 | Mongoloid (diff) |
|
| Jul 6, 2022 | Indian Mills, New Jersey (diff) |
|
| Feb 20, 2023 | Myth of meritocracy (diff) |
|
| Mar 26, 2023 | Millford Plantation (diff) |
|
| Jun 17, 2023 | John Birch Society (diff) |
|
| Jan 9, 2025 | Robert Gould Shaw (diff) |
|
| Jan 9, 2025 | Virginia Dare (diff) |
|
The IP doesn't make enough edits at a time for vandalism warnings to rise to level 4, and thus has never been blocked (which is why I'm reporting this here and not at WP:AIV). These groups of edits are also spaced out over months, so a different user warns the IP each time (eight times so far!). The user, unfamiliar with the IP's editing history, treats the old warnings as "expired" and simply issues another level 1 or 2 warning.
I believe this IP should be banned for a while. Unfortunately, there are probably many more like this one that haven't been caught yet. --Iiii I I I (talk) 09:29, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I spot checked these and yeah this is bad. Using false and misleading edit summaries to remove in most cases sourced descriptions to slant articles. spryde | talk 12:42, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Jesus Christ. Blocked for two years, since it looks like the IP is stable. charlotte 15:35, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you! Iiii I I I (talk) 19:08, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think this discussion is a good example of providing all the infomation needed to the admins to make the decision. If only everyone who complained here did the same. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:16, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you! Iiii I I I (talk) 19:08, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Jesus Christ. Blocked for two years, since it looks like the IP is stable. charlotte 15:35, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
Egl7, anti-Armenian behaviour
Egl7 indef'd for being here to argue instead of building an encyclopedia. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Egl7 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Egl7 clearly has bone to pick with Armenia, including dancing on the fine line of Armenian genocide denial, not to mention severe WP:CIR issues. As a Russian admin admit perfectly put it when they indeffed Egl7; "Since the participant clearly came to Misplaced Pages to fight, I have blocked him indefinitely, because with such edits one cannot expect constructiveness from him."
- Egl7 never tries to take responsibility for their actions, instead being upset and obsessing over that I didn't revert a random IP that added "Armenian" under "common languages" in an infobox almost two years ago , mentioning that 7 (!) times
- According to Egl7, having three things (out of 25) about Armenia on my userpage - being part of the WikiProject Armenia, being interested in the history of Greater Armenia, and opposing the denial of the Armenian genocide, means I support "Armenia's actions" , whatever that means. They never explained it despite being asked to, which leads me to the next thing.
- Here is this incredibly bizarre rant by Egl7 for me having stuff about Armenia on my userpage and not Azerbaijan, accusing me of anti-Azerbaijani sentiment and whatnot;
- Egl7 does not understand when someone is not interested in engaging in WP:FORUM whataboutism, instead resorting to WP:HARASS, first on my talk page , then an article talk page , then their own talk page . This random question about the Khojaly massacre appeared after I asked them if they denied the Armenian Genocide since they considered me having a userpage about it part of "supporting Armenia's actions". According to this well sourced Wiki section , the term "genocide" is a "fabrication" for the Khojaly massacre, which is "used to counter the narrative of the Armenian genocide."
- Dancing on the fine line of Armenian genocide denial, if not denying it
- Despite being blocked on the Russian Misplaced Pages for it, their first action here was trying the very same thing they were indeffed for ; changing "Nakhichevan" (Armenian spelling) to "Nakhichivan" (Azerbaijani spelling)
- I truly tried to have WP:GF despite their disruptive conduct and previous block, but this user is simply WP:NOTHERE. There also seems to be severe WP:CIR at hand, as they struggle understanding a lot of what I say, including even reading WP:RS, which I had to ask them to read 5 (!) times before I gave up. As seen in our long discussion , they also to struggle understand basic sentences/words, such as the difference between "official" and "common".
I'm not going to respond to Egl7 here unless an admin wants me to. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:31, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
HistoryofIran, anti-Azerbaijani behaviour
WP:BOOMERANG. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
@HistoryofIran clearly has bone to pick with Azerbaijan, including reverting my good-faith work which includes correction of arrangement of the "Today is part of" infobox following the country, in which, at present, the largest part of the territory of the Nakhchivan Khanate is located. @HistoryofIran is reverting back changes, saying that my https://en.m.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Nakhichevan_Khanate&diff=prev&oldid=1268162595 edit is not an improvement without any real reason and without offering any argument. Also they are stating that there is a restriction according to Misplaced Pages:GS/AA, while ignoring edits of other users. I asked them many times to open a discussion so both sides could offer different proposals which in turn would lead to a consensus. In response all my requests were ignored. Also they have been accusing me of having conflicts with other users and countries while I have never noted or mentioned any and they have been impolite to me all the time, while i have never been impolite or rude to them. I want to say that I am blocked on ru.wikipedia, again, because of no real reason(They are vandalizing and projecting their actions onto me) and now i'm even worried that en.wikipedia will do the same to me.
They are also dancing on the fine line of denying Khojaly massacre, if not denying it.
Thank You. Egl7 (talk) 15:03, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Boomerang this is a clearly retaliatory filing. I think Egl7 is WP:NOTHERE. Simonm223 (talk) 15:05, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Boomerang obvious retaliatory filling. Lavalizard101 (talk) 15:07, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- As a non-EC editor, you should not be discussing Armenia/Azerbaijan issues at all except for making specific, constructive edit requests on the relevant talk pages. Once you received notice about the restriction, none of your related edits were in good faith, and all may be reverted without being considered edit warring. And quite frankly, the diffs that HistoryofIran has presented about your behavior don't look great. Your behavior on Russian Misplaced Pages doesn't affect your rights on English Misplaced Pages, but since you brought it up, I have to agree that you were there and now here more to fight than to edit a collaborative encyclopedia. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 15:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- @CoffeeCrumbs tell me, please, if there is a restriction why are everybody's edits are ignored except mine? You are not doing justice. Egl7 (talk) 15:39, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Because the restriction is specific to people who do not have extended confirmed status. Simonm223 (talk) 15:41, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- i know that i'm being picky and can sound like a snitch, don't get me wrong, but, at least, i'm editing from an account while other users are editing from random IPs. How is it possible for a random IP to have an extended confirmed status? Egl7 (talk) 15:48, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- The person you created this obviously retaliatory report against is not an IP and does have EC status. The correct thing to do, the thing you should do if you want to enjoy any opportunity to continue participating in this project, is to immediately withdraw this complaint and commit to adherence with WP rules going forward. Simonm223 (talk) 15:57, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not taking about @HistoryofIran here. Look up the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Nakhichevan_Khanate&action=history. You can see that there are IPs, edits of which were ignored even if those edits have been done after the restriction had been set. This is what makes it unfair. By this logic my edits should've been ignored too. Egl7 (talk) 16:05, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- No IP has edited the page in question in nearly a year. You are complaining about a non-issue. signed, Rosguill 16:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- The restriction has been set much earlier than a year. Egl7 (talk) 16:13, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Right, but at ANI we deal with
urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.
The IP edits here are old news. Further, having now reviewed the page's last 5 years of history...out of 7 IP edits made, 5 were reverted almost immediately, 1 is arguably not covered by GS/AA (Special:Diff/1203058517), leaving exactly 1 edit that probably should have been reverted but wasn't (Special:Diff/1177447457, which added "Armenian language"). You'll notice upon minimal investigation, however, that HistoryofIran's most embattled edits to this page were to remove "Armenian language" from the article in July of 2023; it's rather disingenuous to accuse them of all people of turning a blind eye here. signed, Rosguill 16:15, 9 January 2025 (UTC)- This does not refute what I said above. Egl7 (talk) 16:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- There are actually 2 or more of them. I guess it's his duty to support both sides and remove or add information which is or is not necessary. Egl7 (talk) 16:29, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you're trying to say here at this point, but it also doesn't matter. HoI raised multiple valid concerns regarding the quality of your editing in an area that per our community guidelines, you should be intentionally avoiding. In response, you filed a retaliatory report and are now arguing technicalities that are tangential to the substance of HoI's initial report. The fact that you are arguing such trivial, irrelevant points is evidence against you in these proceedings. Your best course of action is to follow Simonm223's advice above. Failure to take that advice at this point is almost certain to end with you blocked. signed, Rosguill 16:43, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Right, but at ANI we deal with
- The restriction has been set much earlier than a year. Egl7 (talk) 16:13, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- No IP has edited the page in question in nearly a year. You are complaining about a non-issue. signed, Rosguill 16:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Is there a rule, that a non-EC editor can't report an incident? Egl7 (talk) 16:33, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not taking about @HistoryofIran here. Look up the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Nakhichevan_Khanate&action=history. You can see that there are IPs, edits of which were ignored even if those edits have been done after the restriction had been set. This is what makes it unfair. By this logic my edits should've been ignored too. Egl7 (talk) 16:05, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's not. However, someone making an inappropriate edit without being caught does not make your inappropriate edits into appropriate ones. There have been many successful bank robberies in history, but that doesn't mean I'm allowed to rob the bank next to my grocery store. You need to start focusing on how you conduct yourself, not on how others do, because right now, you appear to be headed towards a block. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 16:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I understand you. But i want to note that no matter how successful are the robberies, a lengthy criminal investigation will be launched. In addition, i want to say that i wasn't aware of those edits before I did mine. Egl7 (talk) 16:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- You did receive a warning on your talk page. Your conduct issues are not limited to violating ECP. You would be wise to heed the advice given in this thread from Simonm223 and Rosguill. The community does not have much patience for nationalist editing. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 16:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Is there a rule, that a non-EC editor can't report an incident? Egl7 (talk) 16:31, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:GS/AA,
The restriction applies to all edits and pages related to the topic area, broadly construed
. That includes complaints about other editors. Which you should know already, as you have been repeatedly warned about GS/AA and should have read that page carefully. signed, Rosguill 16:39, 9 January 2025 (UTC)- So Is there a rule, that a non-EC editor can't report an incident, which in my case is "HistoryofIran, anti-Azerbaijani behaviour"? I am asking this because you said that "The correct thing to do, the thing you should do if you want to enjoy any opportunity to continue participating in this project, is to immediately withdraw this complaint and commit to adherence with WP rules going forward". And still, what you said in this comment does not refute what I said above. Egl7 (talk) 16:50, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:GS/AA,
- Is there a rule, that a non-EC editor can't report an incident? Egl7 (talk) 16:31, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- You did receive a warning on your talk page. Your conduct issues are not limited to violating ECP. You would be wise to heed the advice given in this thread from Simonm223 and Rosguill. The community does not have much patience for nationalist editing. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 16:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I understand you. But i want to note that no matter how successful are the robberies, a lengthy criminal investigation will be launched. In addition, i want to say that i wasn't aware of those edits before I did mine. Egl7 (talk) 16:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- The person you created this obviously retaliatory report against is not an IP and does have EC status. The correct thing to do, the thing you should do if you want to enjoy any opportunity to continue participating in this project, is to immediately withdraw this complaint and commit to adherence with WP rules going forward. Simonm223 (talk) 15:57, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- i know that i'm being picky and can sound like a snitch, don't get me wrong, but, at least, i'm editing from an account while other users are editing from random IPs. How is it possible for a random IP to have an extended confirmed status? Egl7 (talk) 15:48, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Lists of everyone that has been sanctioned for GS/AA violations, or CT/AA violations more broadly, can be found at Misplaced Pages:General_sanctions/Armenia_and_Azerbaijan#Individual_sanctions and further at WP:AELOG under each year's Armenia-Azerbaijan (CT/A-A) section. Note that this only lists people who repeatedly ignored warnings and got blocked for it, simple reverts are not logged. I would encourage you to avoid getting your own username added to that list. signed, Rosguill 15:44, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Because the restriction is specific to people who do not have extended confirmed status. Simonm223 (talk) 15:41, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- @CoffeeCrumbs tell me, please, if there is a restriction why are everybody's edits are ignored except mine? You are not doing justice. Egl7 (talk) 15:39, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- All I see is Egl7 doubling down. I have already tried to tell them that there was nothing wrong with the IP edit they are fixiated on, and that it doesn’t excuse their unconstructice edits regardless. The fact that they were caught red handed in genocide denial and anti-Armenian conduct and then fruitlessly attempts to make me appear as the same with Azerbaijanis by copy-pasting part of my report and replace “Armenian” with “Azerbaijani” says a lot about this user. HistoryofIran (talk) 16:33, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- @HistoryofIran "There was nothing wrong"
- As @Rosguill said 1 is arguably not covered by GS/AA (Special:Diff/1203058517), leaving exactly 1 edit that probably should have been reverted but wasn't (Special:Diff/1177447457, which added "Armenian language").
- As I understand you were aware or now are aware of those edits done by those IPs what tells me that you admit that you ignored or are ignoring the edits that have been done after the restriction has been set and now you are still stating that there was or is nothing wrong with those IPs' edits. Egl7 (talk) 16:45, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- And we're done here. If you can read my comments here close enough to try to use them to make tendentious arguments at HoI, you should be able to understand that I already told you this is not even slightly appropriate. signed, Rosguill 16:55, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I endorse this block. Cullen328 (talk) 20:52, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- And we're done here. If you can read my comments here close enough to try to use them to make tendentious arguments at HoI, you should be able to understand that I already told you this is not even slightly appropriate. signed, Rosguill 16:55, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Yemen meh's unreferenced edits
I'm reporting @Yemen meh: for unreferenced edits. They've been told many times in the past to post references, and looking at their contributions page, they have done so many unreferenced edits in the last few days. Hotwiki (talk) 09:47, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also, just few days ago - this happened. Hotwiki (talk) 10:18, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
IP hopper repeatedly adding unsourced and incorrect information to UK Rail articles
Discussion moved from WP:AIV to avoid cluttering up that noticeboard with discussion.
There is a user at the 27.55.xxx.xxx range that is repeatedly adding unsourced and invalid information to UK rail articles. The primary problem is the addition of a Maximum Speed to steam locomotives - steam locomotives in the UK did not really have a formal maximum speed, so this parameter is not used in these circumstances. As the user is hopping between IPs, it's proving nearly impossible to leave adequate warnings on talk pages, and as noted at AIV a rangeblock would affect a large number of innocent good faith users. Is there a way forward here, or is it a case of whack-a-mole?
Diffs:
- 27.55.93.62 (talk · contribs) -
- 27.55.83.83 (talk · contribs) - &
- 27.55.79.100 (talk · contribs) -
- 27.55.70.101 (talk · contribs) - , &
- 27.55.68.32 (talk · contribs) - .
Cheers, Danners430 (talk) 10:30, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Seems the only answer is to continue playing w-a-m until our Thai friend gets bored. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 11:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've created an edit filter, Special:AbuseFilter/1335, to detect IPs in that range editing articles that contain {{infobox locomotive}}. I've set it just to log for the moment; let's see what it catches. — The Anome (talk) 12:31, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
Persistent addition of unsourced content by 78.135.166.12
78.135.166.12 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - Keeps adding unsourced content to articles, continued after final warning & hasn't responded to warnings. Examples of addition of unsourced content: 1, 2, 3, 4 (addition of content not in pre-existing source, Pixar not mentioned), 5. Waxworker (talk) 16:30, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
Persistent violation of established consensus on McLaren Driver Development Programme
OP has flounced. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:03, 11 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
McLaren Driver Development Programme is one of many motorsport-related articles that includes sections listing which racing championships drivers have won. Historically, these sections have only included season-long racing series championships, not simply the winners of notable races. However, Thfeeder, MSport1005, and Road Atlanta Turn 5 have persistently tried to list winning the Macau Grand Prix as a "title." I have addressed this and explained the consensus multiple times, and repeatedly asked for them to return to the page to the consensus and start a discussion about changing that consensus, but all have refused and have insisted persisted with continually reverting the page. MSport1005 specifically has engaged in edit warring and personal attacks as well. All I am asking is that the page be reverted to consensus, without the one single race included as if it is a season-long championship, and then we can discuss why or why not to add it. All have refused. I don't think this ever needed to be escalated to the admins but literally everyone else involved has refused to have a simple discussion about this. I really don't understand their behavior. Personally I believe this change would significantly impact dozens of articles and would require larger discussions at the WikiProject level, but again, it does not seem like others are willing to have this discussion. Lazer-kitty (talk) 17:36, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Comment: the relevant talk page discussion can be found here. No "personal attacks" were exchanged. Instead, Road Atlanta Turn 5 and I have tried to urge the user above to seek consensus peacefully instead of making threats and imposing their views. The user cites an "informal consensus" but has been unable to prove its existence.
- MSport1005 (talk) 17:59, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Lazer-kitty, this looks like a content dispute. The steps for resolving such disputes are listed at WP:DR. I think you would find it very difficult to pursue this dispute here, but first you would need diffs showing bad conduct by others, and your conduct would also be looked at. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:59, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Phil Bridger I mean, scroll up. The guy literally just attacked me and accused me of making threats and trying to impose my views, both of which are false. It was absolutely just a content dispute until they started behaving that way. Lazer-kitty (talk) 18:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Lazer-kitty, your second comment at Talk:McLaren Driver Development Programme#Macau was
First off, apologize immediately for your insults above. These are completely uncalled for.
There were no insults and such a rapid escalation of aggression is inexplicable. Forced apologies are worthless. Then, you described this routine and mundane content dispute as "vandalism" even though you presented no evidence of deliberate intent toobstruct or defeat the project's purpose
, which is required for a valid accusation of vandalism. It looks to me like you are being far too aggressive here, and so I recommend that you adopt a more collaborative attitude. Cullen328 (talk) 18:06, 10 January 2025 (UTC)- Yes, that comment was in response to
I kindly urge you to cut down your condescending tone and edit warring, or external measures could be taken.
You don't consider that insulting? I do. I was not being condescending, I sincerely tried my best to be polite, nor was I edit warring. Literally all I want to do is be collaborative and they all refuse. I have asked for collaboration numerous times! Lazer-kitty (talk) 18:08, 10 January 2025 (UTC)- No, that's not an insult. You're talking down to other editors, which can feel condescending to them. I strongly urge you to dial it back and engage in creating a new, solid consensus around this topic. — The Hand That Feeds You: 18:37, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, that comment was in response to
- Lazer-kitty, your second comment at Talk:McLaren Driver Development Programme#Macau was
- Phil Bridger I mean, scroll up. The guy literally just attacked me and accused me of making threats and trying to impose my views, both of which are false. It was absolutely just a content dispute until they started behaving that way. Lazer-kitty (talk) 18:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Reading through the talk page is pretty bizarre - Lazer-kitty is insisting their opinion is consenus against 3 editors who disagree with them. I know nothing about motorsport but to me this is evidence that consensus is against LK, not with them as they claim. I think this earns a trout for opening this filing, the misunderstanding of the concept of consensus, and for battleground behaviour - but there's nothing here that needs admin attention. BugGhost 🦗👻 18:30, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
Thanks to everyone involved for bullying off me this platform. Never in my life did I expect that 20 years of editing would end with being gaslit by multiple admins and editors. Really appreciate your efforts in killing this encyclopedia. My only hope is that one day someone forks Misplaced Pages into a new encyclopedia with competent oversight, i.e. people who can see through obvious trolling and bad faith actions, and who don't rely on aggressive tone policing to make their judgements. Lazer-kitty (talk) 19:22, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) The filer appears to have vanished and retired. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 19:57, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- As multiple people have pointed out, you are seriously overreacting. Your behaviour is completely disproportionate to the content dispute you are involved in. You only have yourself to look at there. If this is how you react to people disagreeing with you, you are the one with a serious problem. Tvx1 20:18, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
Engage01: ad hominem personal attacks and one against many
Engage01 (talk · contribs) has been arguing to include an incredibly lengthy quote in Palisades Fire (2025). Upon my removal of the quote and suggestion to bring it to the talk page, they've begun a large-scale argument that me and most other editors that disagree with the addition of the quote as lacking competence, not understanding quality, or one-word "wrong" replies. Consensus is clearly against them but instead of coming up with actual policy-based reasons for every other editor !voting in the poll they set up (all in favor of not having the quote) they've chose to accuse us of not understanding policy or not seeing that the individual in question is important in the matter enough to deserve a long quote. They haven't been around for long, and have gotten multiple warnings for personal attack-type language in the conversation. I've been asked by them to "remove myself from the conversation" and they suggested I was "learning while you edit" while not understanding WP:DUE. I don't have time to add any diffs (all the comments are still live) except for Special:Diff/1268631697, them blanking their talk page, and here a few minutes later, where they keep their argument at "I can't understand how editors can misapply "undue weight."". This could be a severe case of WP:IDONTHEARYOU with the blanking. I'm hoping whoever sees this can at least get them to cut out their personal attacks. Cheers. Departure– (talk) 19:16, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I thought I removed the quote first, but it was removed again by Departure. Nevertheless this user has made personal attacks on my User talk page as well. I posted two warnings here and here on their talk page but Engage01 just blanked them very quickly. I wish to WP:DROPTHESTICK but this user started a new section on my talk page (linked above) to argue about "undue weight" which is something I don't recall mentioning at all in this situation.
- I remember now. I moved the quote from the body of the article to inside the citation but I had a feeling that it was only a gradual stage before it would be fully removed by WP:CONSENSUS. Thank you for bringing this to the ANI. Kire1975 (talk) 19:26, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've pblocked them for one week from the article and its talk page for disruptive editing, personal attacks, incivility, and bludgeoning. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:40, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- The method of engagement at that talk page is really poor. I've closed the section now that the editor has been p-blocked, no need to continue to sink time into it. Daniel (talk) 20:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I know they're partially blocked from that page, but I went through their edit history and I found (1), (2), (3), (4), (5), (6), (7), (8) different diffs of them adding the quote in question into the article (at least 7 of which were after it had been removed), and I think that constitutes edit warring. They never got notice for violating 3RR but they very clearly did. Maybe the block from the Palisades Fire should be extended or expanded? I've seen worse sanctions for less disruption. Departure– (talk) 20:26, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- The method of engagement at that talk page is really poor. I've closed the section now that the editor has been p-blocked, no need to continue to sink time into it. Daniel (talk) 20:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
Problems with Pipera
Pipera blocked. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:55, 10 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Pipera (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I've listed some illustrative diffs below along with explanations where needed. I've tried to be concise but it's difficult at times to explain the issues. There are more problems I've got documented, but I tried to not overwhelm this filing.
I'm concerned that Pipera does not understand what wikipedia is for and what we do - their continual references to the fact that they are a descendant of the article subjects and that they know through their own research that historians or scholars are wrong, is a big problem and they have not taken explanations of what we do here (as opposed to a genealogical research site) on board. Their continual sourcing problems - removing sources, adding unsourced information, arguing that sites like WikiTree are reliable, arguing that they know better than the reliable sources, and, worst, the changing of sourced information to say something different than what the source actually says - all these are big red-flag issues. Explanations of how they have issues have been met with either no-engagement with the points raised or walls of text. I also have WP:CIR concerns as they seem unable to edit without formatting, grammar, and other issues.
As for a solution, I'm open to suggestions. A topic ban from medieval biographies would probably solve the current problem, but I'm not sure that will not just move the problem elsewhere. If someone would volunteer to mentor Pipera, that might work, but I've exhausted my good faith already in the last month, and it would need to be someone with a lot of patience, and I'm not sure the CIR issues won't just show up somewhere else.
- In a series of edits from 24 to 26 Dec 2024 at Ralph Basset Pipera changes sourced information to have it say something that the source does not quite say, adds information that is unrelated to the subject of the article, along with grammar issues. I pointed out the problems with these edits on the talk page here which got a series of replies that repeated parts of the article and frankly, I'm not sure what they meant to convey with it.
- In a series of edits on 31 Dec 2024 at Henry I of England, Pipera removes sources from sourced information, adds unsourced information, and generally mucks up the text and formatting. After being reverted by an editor and re-adding their edits, they post a long digression on the talk page. I documented the problems with their edits on the talk page, but they were never addressed.
- 2 Jan 2025 At William the Conqueror, Pipera adds a citation needed tag to an already cited sentence, one cited to the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography.
- On 4 Jan 2025 at Enguerrand II, Count of Ponthieu, Pipera changes Enguerrand's offspring from a daughter to a daughter and son, removing the sourced statement that Enguerrand had no male offspring, and changing his brother and successor Guy into a son instead. This is done while keeping the three sources that previously supported Guy as a brother, not a son. One of the attached sources is Musset p. 104, which can be accessed at the Internet Archive it says "Guy I of Ponthieu is a well-known figure who inherited the county after the death in battle of his brother, Enguerrand II, in 1053" See talk page where a discussion about another source that supports Enguerrand as having no male offspring is dismissed as "There are a number of updated versions the work" but without substantiating such a claim.
- In a series of edits on 6 Jan 2025 at Sibyl of Falaise Pipera copies an earlier section of the article into a new place without removing it at the older location so that now the article repeats the section starting "Katherine Keats-Rohan argues instead...". This series of edits also adds unsourced information and removes sourced information. I reverted the edits with the statement "remove repetition and restore sources to information" but was re-reverted with the edit summary "Undid revision 1267745167 by Ealdgyth (talk) sorry this is my family tree and I know what was placed here is correct". There are further edits to this article here and then a discussion on the talk page about what they said was a "will" of William de Falaise actually turns out to be a charter. I pointed this out on the talk page, and that got a flurry of replies on the talk page just don't make any sense to me. Maybe they are upset that some historians might think Sibyl was illegitimate? They keep saying things like "They state Sybil of Falaise might have been yet another b######d." which took me a bit to realize that they were censoring "bastard". Note that the article still in places calls this charter a "will" and says that "In the charter of William de Falaise, he bequeaths everything to his wife Geva." However, Pipera at Talk:Sibyl of Falaise#Marriage and Issue claims to translate the charter and their translation says nothing about William bequeathing everything to his wife - it's a standard gift-charter giving some property to a church, with his wife mentioned as also giving the property along with William. This raises serious issues about Pipera's ability to read and understand sources and use them appropriately.
- In a series of edits ending on 6 Jan 2025 Pipera adds unsourced information as well as a long series of genealogical descents to an article about a 12th-century nobleman, much of the information is not really related to the subject of the article.
- On 7 Jan 2025 at Richard de Courcy Pipera changes sourced information without updating the source, removing the "probably" from "probably was the son", and making it a categorical statement that Richard was the son of Robert de Courcy.
- 7 Jan 2025 at William de Courcy (died c. 1114) Pipera removes sources from information and adds unsourced information. I reverted with an edit summary of "Restore sources to information, no need for this heading, and we do not need a list here" but was re-reverted with the edit summary "with all due respect we have this everywhere in Misplaced Pages, further it adds clarity to the entry. In my opinion. Further, added the name of Williams wife Avice to the entry BTW she is the daughter of the Earl of Skipton her mother is Cecily de Rumily they are my 23rd Great Grandparents". I then attempted to discuss at the talk page here but this has been ignored.
- 9/10 Jan 2025 at Talk:Sibyl of Falaise - I reply here to a comment of theirs. Pipera reverts it with an edit summary of "Do not delete my tak page responses", but I did not delete any of their responses, I merely replied. Two edits later, they delete a whole section they had started, including the replies that I had made to them, pointing out problems, violating WP:REDACT.
- I've tried to avoid bringing this here, but I've reached the point where I cannot keep dealing with Pipera (talk · contribs). They continue to add unsourced and unrelated information to articles, refuse to take on formatting advice, continue to assert that they know better than the reliable sources in articles, and continue to post walls of text on talk pages that do not help with collaborative editing.
- I've listed some illustrative diffs below along with explanations where needed. I've tried to be concise but it's difficult at times to explain the issues. There are more problems I've got documented, but I tried to not overwhelm this filing.
- I'm concerned that Pipera does not understand what wikipedia is for and what we do - their continual references to the fact that they are a descendant of the article subjects and that they know through their own research that historians or scholars are wrong, is a big problem and they have not taken explanations of what we do here (as opposed to a genealogical research site) on board. Their continual sourcing problems - removing sources, adding unsourced information, arguing that sites like WikiTree are reliable, arguing that they know better than the reliable sources, and, worst, the changing of sourced information to say something different than what the source actually says - all these are big red-flag issues. Explanations of how they have issues have been met with either no-engagement with the points raised or walls of text. I also have WP:CIR concerns as they seem unable to edit without formatting, grammar, and other issues.
- As for a solution, I'm open to suggestions. A topic ban from medieval biographies would probably solve the current problem, but I'm not sure that will not just move the problem elsewhere. If someone would volunteer to mentor Pipera, that might work, but I've exhausted my good faith already in the last month, and it would need to be someone with a lot of patience, and I'm not sure the CIR issues won't just show up somewhere else.
- In a series of edits from 24 to 26 Dec 2024 at Ralph Basset Pipera changes sourced information to have it say something that the source does not quite say, adds information that is unrelated to the subject of the article, along with grammar issues. I pointed out the problems with these edits on the talk page here which got a series of replies that repeated parts of the article and frankly, I'm not sure what they meant to convey with it.
- That ha been reolved,
- In a series of edits on 31 Dec 2024 at Henry I of England, Pipera removes sources from sourced information, adds unsourced information, and generally mucks up the text and formatting. After being reverted by an editor and re-adding their edits, they post a long digression on the talk page. I documented the problems with their edits on the talk page, but they were never addressed.
- The page dealing with his children has yet to be resolved.
- 2 Jan 2025 At William the Conqueror, Pipera adds a citation needed tag to an already cited sentence, one cited to the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography.
- That has been resolved.
- On 4 Jan 2025 at Enguerrand II, Count of Ponthieu, Pipera changes Enguerrand's offspring from a daughter to a daughter and son, removing the sourced statement that Enguerrand had no male offspring, and changing his brother and successor Guy into a son instead. This is done while keeping the three sources that previously supported Guy as a brother, not a son. One of the attached sources is Musset p. 104, which can be accessed at the Internet Archive it says "Guy I of Ponthieu is a well-known figure who inherited the county after the death in battle of his brother, Enguerrand II, in 1053" See talk page where a discussion about another source that supports Enguerrand as having no male offspring is dismissed as "There are a number of updated versions the work" but without substantiating such a claim.
- In regard to this matter see: https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Adelaide_of_Normandy#Comtes_de_Montreuil which no one has replied to.,
- In a series of edits on 6 Jan 2025 at Sibyl of Falaise Pipera copies an earlier section of the article into a new place without removing it at the older location so that now the article repeats the section starting "Katherine Keats-Rohan argues instead...". This series of edits also adds unsourced information and removes sourced information. I reverted the edits with the statement "remove repetition and restore sources to information" but was re-reverted with the edit summary "Undid revision 1267745167 by Ealdgyth (talk) sorry this is my family tree and I know what was placed here is correct". There are further edits to this article here and then a discussion on the talk page about what they said was a "will" of William de Falaise actually turns out to be a charter. I pointed this out on the talk page, and that got a flurry of replies on the talk page just don't make any sense to me. Maybe they are upset that some historians might think Sibyl was illegitimate? They keep saying things like "They state Sybil of Falaise might have been yet another b######d." which took me a bit to realize that they were censoring "bastard". Note that the article still in places calls this charter a "will" and says that "In the charter of William de Falaise, he bequeaths everything to his wife Geva." However, Pipera at Talk:Sibyl of Falaise#Marriage and Issue claims to translate the charter and their translation says nothing about William bequeathing everything to his wife - it's a standard gift-charter giving some property to a church, with his wife mentioned as also giving the property along with William. This raises serious issues about Pipera's ability to read and understand sources and use them appropriately.
- See: https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Sibyl_of_Falaise#Vague_history_of_Sybil_being_the_Niece_of_Henry_I_of_England. And https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Sibyl_of_Falaise#Article_Concerns!
- In a series of edits ending on 6 Jan 2025 Pipera adds unsourced information as well as a long series of genealogical descents to an article about a 12th-century nobleman, much of the information is not really related to the subject of the article.
- On 7 Jan 2025 at Richard de Courcy Pipera changes sourced information without updating the source, removing the "probably" from "probably was the son", and making it a categorical statement that Richard was the son of Robert de Courcy.
- Richard was the son of Robert de Courcy, and his mother was named Herleva de Bernieres. His father was Balderic 'the Teuton' and an unnamed granddaughter of Geoffrey, Count of Eu . He was one of nine children bound by this relationship.
- He actually is his son.
- 7 Jan 2025 at William de Courcy (died c. 1114) Pipera removes sources from information and adds unsourced information. I reverted with an edit summary of "Restore sources to information, no need for this heading, and we do not need a list here" but was re-reverted with the edit summary "with all due respect we have this everywhere in Misplaced Pages, further it adds clarity to the entry. In my opinion. Further, added the name of Williams wife Avice to the entry BTW she is the daughter of the Earl of Skipton her mother is Cecily de Rumily they are my 23rd Great Grandparents". I then attempted to discuss at the talk page here but this has been ignored.
- 21:25, 7 January 2025 Pipera talk contribs 5,529 bytes +76 Undid revision 1268026529 by Ealdgyth (talk) with all due respect we have this everywhere in Misplaced Pages, further it adds clarity to the entry. In my opinion. Further, added the name of Williams wife Avice to the entry BTW she is the daughter of the Earl of Skipton her mother is Cecily de Rumily they are my 23rd Great Grandparents. undo Tag: Undo
- 9/10 Jan 2025 at Talk:Sibyl of Falaise - I reply here to a comment of theirs. Pipera reverts it with an edit summary of "Do not delete my tak page responses", but I did not delete any of their responses, I merely replied. Two edits later, they delete a whole section they had started, including the replies that I had made to them, pointing out problems, violating WP:REDACT.
- Proceedings by Somersetshire Archaeological and Natural History Society Publication date 1919
- https://archive.org/details/proceedings65some/page/8/mode/1up?q=Sibyl+
- * Eyton, in his Domesday Studies, styles this " an old legend (we can call it no more) of the Welsh Marches We cannot imagine how Henry I. could have such a niece as this Sibil ; nor can we say how Sibil de Falaise was related to William de Falaise, or why she or her descendants should have succeeded to any of his estates." Pipera (talk) 21:00, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support block
topic banpossibly per nom. I've been watching the complete palaver that is William Martin, 1st Baron Martin—"his daughter Joan of which I am a descendant"!—with askance. Their talk page comments are near incomprehensible, and malformed and they seem to delight in... misunderstanding. Repeatedly. If as Ealdgyth suggests, the TB proves insufficient, the this can be revisited, but in the meantime, it's worth a shot.I had an edit-confliuct posting this, due to Pipera posting above. And incidentally proving the actual point. The reply is bizarre; they seem to have duplicated wholesale Ealdgyth's original post. They are completely incapable of communicating in a manner that is not disruptive. SerialNumber54129 21:10, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Changing my suggestion to a full block; their replies demonstrate they either don't understand what Misplaced Pages is for, and are unwilling to learn, or simply don't care. Either way, NOTHERE applies in spades. SerialNumber54129 21:53, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Talk:Henry I of England - Misplaced Pages https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Henry_I_of_England Henry I of England
- In regard to this matter, I was restoring an earlier version of the article. listing the children legitimate, illegitimate and mistress to the children section of the article. it was not my work it was the work of others that came here circa 2006 -7 that placed this here, and it was removed.
- I added:
- Baldwin, Stewart (2002). The Henry Project: The Ancestors of King Henry II of England. The American Society of Genealogists.
- I was told that this was an unreliable source when the work is on the American Society of Genealogists website, Baldwin is a writer of historic books. He is a valid source of information, further his work in the reference section shows some of the sources that are in the Misplaced Pages articles.
- I was told that WikiTree is a user generate source, Misplaced Pages is also a user generated source.
- Additionally, I was told that Alison Weir was not acceptable in the article.
- == Using these within a Misplaced Pages Article ==
- Broken up into:
- There is no rule here stating that these cannot be used within any part of a Misplaced Pages entry.
- You also removed Alison Weir as a reference, explain to me why she was removed? Pipera (talk) 18:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Regards Pipera (talk) 21:17, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Finally, other genealogical sites like WikiTree have attempted to place the children of Henry I in the right place and manner, in other incidents globally people are now adding Henry I as the father of Sybil de Falaise based on the article here at Misplaced Pages. She is not the niece of Henry I whichever way this is stated, in relation to William Martin https://en.wikipedia.org/William_Martin,_1st_Baron_Martin#References this has been resolved, and yet on my talk page I went into great detail about the usage of the tag in two other Misplaced Pages articles.
- Also, I am academically qualified to read source materials like:
- Robert of Torigni or Torigny (French: Robert de Torigni; c. 1110–1186), also known as Robert of the Mont (Latin: Robertus de Monte; French: Robert de Monte; also Robertus de Monte Sancti Michaelis, in reference to the abbey of Mont Saint-Michel), was a Norman monk, prior, and abbot. He is most remembered for his chronicles detailing English history of his era.
- https://entities.oclc.org/worldcat/entity/E39PBJxhgfHcDqQdqcGCG7gh73.html and Normannorum Ducum, Orderic Vitalis and William of Jumièges read their works and apply them to any historic context as I have in other genealogical sites as well as read Parish Registers in the 1500's and apply this to research.
- Pipera (talk) 21:31, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please block this person now, any admin who sees this. I have lost count of the number of Misplaced Pages policies which they are intent on ignoring, and if swift action isn't taken this discission will be longer than the rest of this page put together. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:39, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:46, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree. --Kansas Bear 21:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Because I came to Misplaced Pages to extend articles, add new information, rolled back and not one academic response. I have been given personal opinions of which I have taken on board. I have not gone into iny article with the intent to add incorrect information to the articles. I have been adding here since 2001, and decided to come into these articles to expand them. That is my intention to do so. In the case of Henry I of England I was adding to the Family and children section and added additional links I have not entered any other part of the article.
- In the case of Sybil of Falaise there is no way she can be Henry I of England nice as the records of his brothers and sisters state so. I have raised these concerns in the talk page, see Talk:Sibyl of Falaise - Misplaced Pages https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Sibyl_of_Falaise as I see it. Pipera (talk) 21:56, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:46, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please block this person now, any admin who sees this. I have lost count of the number of Misplaced Pages policies which they are intent on ignoring, and if swift action isn't taken this discission will be longer than the rest of this page put together. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:39, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- They have been blocked. GiantSnowman 22:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry, I got here late. Thanks to Ealdgyth for bringing this issue here, and to all who participated. After an initial attempt at dealing with Pipera's disruptions and chaotic editing/communication pattern, I must admit I soon walked away. Thanks those with more patience than I for trying longer. Eric 22:48, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks to Ealdgyth for the thread. I participated sufficiently to see this was real problem, but didn't act decisively. BusterD (talk) 22:49, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
An IP who gave me a fake 4im warning
There was a IP address (177.76.41.247) who
- Called me blind in an edit summary after i reverted his edit
- trouted me and gave me a 4im warning
I think this is the appropriate place to take this report.
Thanks, Tenebre_Rosso_Sangue, ULTRAKILLing Vandals! Call for Medic! My Stats! 22:37, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Well, a 4im warning was certainly an overreaction and the edit summary could have been nicer, but your revert was obviously wrong. The IP has since self-reverted the warning. No admin action is needed here, but you should read IP edits more carefully before reverting them, and consider changing your distasteful signature. Spicy (talk) 22:45, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Distasteful? What do you mean? it is simply a videogame refrence to Ultrakill.
- And i did admit fault for the bad edit (and for my unnecessarily silly first response).
- Thanks, Tenebre_Rosso_Sangue, ULTRAKILLing Vandals! Call for Medic! My Stats! 22:50, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- However, @Spicy I was gonna change it due to me changing my username soon. So, in the meantime, i will change it. Tenebre_Rosso_Sangue, ULTRAKILLing Vandals! Call for Medic! My Stats! 22:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- It would be great i you could remove all of the extraneous phrases and change it so that it is just your username and a link to your User talk page. Liz 00:05, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- I fail to see the need to jump all over Tenebre over their signature. There are a number of other editors and admins who have similarly goofy signatures and jumping down one editor's throat seems petty. Insanityclown1 (talk) 02:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- It would be great i you could remove all of the extraneous phrases and change it so that it is just your username and a link to your User talk page. Liz 00:05, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- However, @Spicy I was gonna change it due to me changing my username soon. So, in the meantime, i will change it. Tenebre_Rosso_Sangue, ULTRAKILLing Vandals! Call for Medic! My Stats! 22:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
Community block appeal by Drbogdan
Drbogdan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) This user has asked for a review of their community block enacted as a result of a discussion here six months ago. Just FYI for context the original title of the section on their talk pages was "Request to restore editing per WP:STANDARD OFFER as suggested" and several users involved in the previous discussion were pinged, and a block review began there before I shut that down and informed them it needed to be done here, so there's going to be some volume of comments right away, in addition to the lengthy text of the request itself. Beeblebrox 23:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
CLOSING ANI CONCLUSIONS - MY (overdue perhaps) REPLIES Somewhat new to all of this (been busy in other wiki-areas over the years - see below), but seems it's been over 6 months since the start of my indev block (start date = July 6, 2024) - perhaps WP:STANDARD OFFER may now apply I would think - and hopefully, WP:AGF and WP:NPA (direct and/or indirect) apply here as well of course. Thanks. ::::I closed this quickly a few minutes ago since the latest comments have been fairly plain personal attacks, rather than discussing the substance of the complaint and appropriate action. It took me a while to organize my thoughts and copyedit myself - there's a lot to unpack here.
Thank you for your comments and conclusions. As before, I've been very busy recently with mostly real-world activities (but also with some earlier online activities - 1+2+3 and others) . Sorry for my delay in not responding earlier of course. Hopefully, my presentation here is appropriate and entirely ok (I'm really new to this wiki-area). ::::Here we have a science expert mass-adding content based on low-quality popular science churnalism to our science articles, expecting that other editors will review it and determine whether to improve or remove it, and a complaint from the editors who have been cleaning up after them supposedly for many years. This discussion can be summed up with a quote from the competence is required essay: "A mess created in a sincere effort to help is still a mess that needs to be cleaned up." We excuse this behaviour from very new editors who don't yet understand that Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia with standards for inclusion and not a collection of links. The community expects an editor with 90,000 edits to understand what content should be in an article and what constitutes a reliable source, especially for an editor who is also a subject matter expert.
Mostly untrue claims. Certainly none intentional. As before, claims have been exaggerated (also noted by others Here and elsewhere) and/or interpretable (with no or few supporting diffs) (along with selection bias - ie, selected 10 or so articles out of hundreds of edited articles?) (source). Such claims, perhaps to seem more credible than they really may be, seem to have been presented under cover of apparent WP:POLICIES of one sort or another. In addition, the importance of WP:IAR, in some relevant instances, have been downplayed and/or dismissed outright. For one example of possible related contention, the very long-time (many years) List of rocks on Mars article, originally a very enriched (helpful/useful) version (seemingly at least), and justified by WP:IAR, is Here, but is currently (without discussion or WP: CONSENSUS) changed to a less helpful/useful article instead. Seems like WP:MOS rules may overrule WP:IAR? Seems so at the moment in this instance. At least until there's a better resolution of the issue through further discussion and WP:CONSENSUS I would think. In any case, lessons learned here of course. ::::Drbogdan's replies to deserved criticism in this thread have been dismissive of the problem at best, if not signalling that they believe their academic credentials excuse them from needing to improve. The community has historically rejected this approach, and rejects it here. Since Drbogdan seems not to understand that they are making a mess and seems uninterested in learning how not to continue making messes, the community's consensus is that Drbogdan is blocked indefinitely.
Not true. Never said or thought this. Ever. Not my way of thinking. I've always tried to be open to improvement. Seems the better road generally. After all, nobody's perfect. Everyone could benefit from improvement of one sort or another I would think. My academic (and related) credentials have been presented only to describe my qualifications to edit Misplaced Pages, which, I currently understand, may be ok. Please let me know if otherwise of course. Nonetheless, my current UserPage is Here. (My earlier UserPage, if interested, is Here). ::-- ::
::Separately from this close, I also *must say* that their habit - eccentric, maybe? - of hacking together *long run-on strings of comments* - interspersed - as they are - with *forced pause* breaks and sprinkled with self-aggrandizing - and off-topic, yes - links to their *achievements* makes it - as others have said here - quite frustrating to converse with them. All the worse that the vast majority of their comments of this sort do not substantively reply to the comments they are left in response to.
Not ever true in my edits of mainspace articles. May be somewhat true on some talk-pages only. In any case, lessons learned here as well. Any specific rules broken in my editing have been entirely unintentional. As far as I currently know, all edits that may have been of some issue earlier have been completely corrected some time ago. I currently know of no real rules broken that may not be a matter of unsettled opinion. If otherwise, please specify rules that may have been an issue (and related diffs of course), and suggested ways that I may further improve my related edits going forward. I expect to adjust accordingly (and appropriately) as needed at the first opportunity of course. Thanks. ::::I'm also going to leave links here to Misplaced Pages:Expert editors, Misplaced Pages:Relationships with academic editors, and Misplaced Pages:Expert retention. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 8:18 am, 6 July 2024, Saturday (6 months, 6 days ago) (UTC−8) Thanks again for all your comments and conclusions. I should note that I have numerous Wiki-contributions/edits, including Misplaced Pages (98,481 edits+306 articles+70 tiemplates+30 userboxes+2,494 images+and more); as well as many Wiki-contributions/edits to WikiCommons; WikiData; WikiQuotes; WikiSimple; WikiSpecies; Wiktionary; other Wikis and other related Wiki programs. ADD: Drbogdan (talk) 10:10, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
Thanks for reviewing my request. May have been a bit bold (WP:BEBOLD) on some of my earlier edits and presentations. I sincerely apologize in these instances if overdone of course. Nonetheless, some complaints seem interpretable to me (a "mess" to some may not be one to others for example; "quality" of editing may be another example). The standards on Misplaced Pages are not set in stone so-to-speak, but keep evolving - hence, "WP:BEBOLD" and "WP:IAR", and similar phrasing and notions, seem to be an essential part of the DNA of Misplaced Pages, and helpful, I would think, to the better development of Misplaced Pages as a world-class source of quality knowledge and information. This may be even more important these days given the apparent recent removal of "fact-checking" on some online websites. Re any apparent copyvio: none ever intentional, and all completely solved long ago afaik. Hope this helps in some way. Incidentally, I entirely agree that my earlier user page needs a version trimmed down to the very basics, and without any material whatsoover that may possibly be understood as promotional. I have no problem doing that of course. Seems I may have been too WP:BEBOLD with that (and related presentations, including those involving references and the like). In any case, thank you for reviewing my request here. I hope my replies (noted above) help in some way to restore my en-Misplaced Pages editing. Stay Safe and Healthy !! - Drbogdan (talk) 12:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Prior talk page discussion
| prior discussion copied from User talk:Drbogdan. Beeblebrox 23:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC) |
|---|
|
Strong oppose: DrBogdan has never acknowledged their destructive editing tendencies or willingness to be overly promotional in weighting their contributions to wikipedia, a trait was has continued well into their CBAN with promotional-ish replies here (diff) and his edits to his userspace largely being to maintain promotional links. He continues above in lionizing the volume of his edit history without regard for quality and linking, inexplicably, his facebook, livejournal, and wordpress pages. I and other editors have spent a lot of time since their ban cleaning up the daily updates and image galleries added persistently to articles. Since his ban, I did more cleaning at Commons and this resulted in the deletion of 78 promotional images and selfies not contributing to the project. In this process I learned that Drbogdan has had a history of uploading images with copyright issues, as well. The meat of it, though, has been how he absolutely ruined entire science articles that have required complete rewrites to bring up to standard. I have maintained a list of this process since it’s very time consuming. So far I’ve had to rewrite (with help from others in places) Curiosity (Rover),List of rocks on Mars, Ingenuity (helicopter), Jezero (crater), Animal track, Bright spots on Ceres, and Aromatum Chaos, in addition to the cleanup done before his CBAN. All of these were victims of indiscriminate image galleries added to articles and daily updates on mission status. If we look at one I still haven’t gotten to, like Mount Sharp, it’s still an absolute mess of images smeared all over it. The intent of this list isn't to be any kind of gravedancing, but rather Drbogdan's major contributions have been so consistently low-quality that it's necessary to manually review every single article he's been heavily involved in to remove indiscriminate galleries. Drbogdan’s defence here and in the past has been a mix of the Shaggy defense and blaming my “persistence” at the ANI, despite my initial arguments at ANI being opposed to a ban. I think it’s pretty clear at this point that Drbogdan is motivated to edit, but unwilling to acknowledge any of the shortcomings in their editing process and I don’t actually see a planet in which their presence here is a positive given the timbre of this unban request. Especially considering it was so obviously going to be posted bang-on the six month mark. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 12:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Thanks for reviewing my request. May have been a bit bold (WP:BEBOLD) on some of my earlier edits and presentations. I sincerely apologize in these instances if overdone of course. Nonetheless, some complaints seem interpretable to me (a "mess" to some may not be one to others for example; "quality" of editing may be another example). The standards on Misplaced Pages are not set in stone so-to-speak, but keep evolving - hence, "WP:BEBOLD" and "WP:IAR", and similar phrasing and notions, seem to be an essential part of the DNA of Misplaced Pages, and helpful, I would think, to the better development of Misplaced Pages as a world-class source of quality knowledge and information. This may be even more important these days given the apparent recent removal of "fact-checking" on some online websites. Re any apparent copyvio: none ever intentional, and all completely solved long ago afaik. Hope this helps in some way. Drbogdan (talk) 15:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
|
- Shouldn't this be on WP:AN, not WP:ANI? also, this is weird. This section, and this section only, has a pause between typing the "]]" at the end of links when I hit it fast. Not other sections on the page, and not the edit summary box either... - The Bushranger One ping only 23:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Tech issue appears to start after the "Separately from this close" quote above. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:00, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- I put the discussion here because this is where the block was decided. Seems like it should go back to the same place?
- I've had a really long couple of days but if there are still technical problems here tomorrow I'll look into it. Beeblebrox 03:53, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think unblock requests usually go on AN, but that's fair. And as a further note, the "delay" between the "]]" typing gets longer the further I go down the page when editing that section. Editing just this subsection, it's just fine, so there's something in that quote or just below it that is making Firefox go pear-shaped. It's very weird. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:12, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Tech issue appears to start after the "Separately from this close" quote above. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:00, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
Further Discussion of Community block appeal by Drbogdan
Any replies from Drbogdan to further comments here may be copied over. Beeblebrox 23:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose I'm not sure what that stream of consciousness is trying to say but it goes nowhere near addressing the issues resulting in the ban. DeCausa (talk) 23:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose I'm not seeing anything in the Wall of text that shows the editor understands why they were banned and how their behaviour needs to change. Lavalizard101 (talk) 23:54, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose I see nothing here that suggests Drbogdan understands the problem and is willing to take positive steps to avoid it. Rather the opposite. XOR'easter (talk) 00:20, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose unblock request does not address the reason for their ban. And the content of the request just goes to show why the ban should be continued and why they are not of benefit to the community and are just wasting other editor's time. Canterbury Tail talk 01:06, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose fails to address the reason the ban was given, nor give any adequate assurances that the behavior that resulted in the ban will not be an issue going forward.Insanityclown1 (talk) 02:14, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose: The standard offer requires that banned users promise to avoid engaging in the behaviors that led to their ban. I do not see any such promise in this unblock request, so this appeal should be struck down. HyperAccelerated (talk) 06:12, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose. The unblock request provides neither adequate specifics to convince me that the previous ban was improperly applied, nor any apology nor promise to do better regarding the behavior that led to the ban. —David Eppstein (talk) 07:53, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose - The unblock request largely shows the same issues they were blocked for - self promo (links to facebook, wordpress and livejournal), not taking on community advice (all responses are "nuh-uh, not true"), and difficulties communicating (formatting is a mess and responses are only tangentially related to what they are quoting). Their defense is mainly "I never did anything that bad", not the required acknowledgement of the problem and indication of improval. In the unblock request they specificly use this version of the List of rocks on Mars article as an example of a good contribution - which has
The name Jazzy, for example, was taken from a girl named Jazzy who grew up in Grand Junction, Colorado, USA. Her father worked for NASA and contributed to the findings and naming of the rocks.
unsourced in the second paragraph. BugGhost 🦗👻 09:55, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
Unconstructive editing by Wolverine X-eye
I am posting this here because, among other concerns of continued disruptive editing, I believe that this user's actions are impacting the quality and integrity of the GAN process. I’ve looked at this for long enough and tried to aid where possible, but it seems that @Wolverine XI is unwilling to change their behaviour on this website, hence why I saw fit to bring this here.
They have passed several articles through GAN over the past few months that exhibit many edits in a short period (numbering into the hundreds), often paired with unexplained removal of information. These absurdly high edit counts clog up page histories and are not exclusive to their GAN targets either, as can be seen in this three-month-old discussion on the user’s talk page from back when I first noticed this ‘unusual editing style’. Some examples from around this time follow below, although I should add that this editing pattern has not changed:
Wolverine has been asked multiple times to try and reduce their edit counts so that page histories remain useable, and despite saying they will, have refused to take any actual action in this regard. One can see this pattern repeated over and over on their contributions page.
Sadly, high edit counts with minimal change are the least of the issues present here. Most recently, Wolverine passed Fennec Fox, but after closing and reopening the GAN himself in the middle of an active (and not strictly positive) review by another user. A new review was started by another user within a few days, and while they did acknowledge the existence of the second review, nothing was done about its improper closing and only a few sentences were added to the article between the two reviews (which can be found here and here respectively)
In many places where editors don’t immediately agree with Wolverine, he turns to insults, personal attacks and otherwise inappropriate comments. A non-exhaustive list of examples follows below:
- Under ‘Your talk page’, accusing another editor of inappropriately handling a discussion with a minor (the other user was, in fact, not a minor). Example 1
- Fennec fox GAN Example 1, Example 2
- List of pholidotans merge proposal Example 1, Example 2
- Narwhal talk page Example 1
- Own talk page Example 1
The user has also shown an unwillingness to put effort into article improvement when requested in the review processes, and an unwillingness to put effort into finishing reviews they start. Again, a non-exhaustive list of examples can be found below.
- Own talk page, starting and then not finishing two GA reviews (https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Wolverine_X-eye/Archive_2#Inactivity_during_reviews) and drive-by nomination of the World War I article, a bit of a while back when compared to other examples in this case (6 months). https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Wolverine_X-eye/Archive_2#Drive-by_nomination
- After being advised to do a thorough check on all the citations in the narwhal page (see the closing comments on review four, Wolverine opened a peer review for the article four days later stating that they ‘need to know where the article's source-to-text integrity is at’, indicating a fundamental lack of knowledge about the state of the article that he had, at this point, attempted to promote to FA four times in five months. In this same review, he also tried to get others to do a source review for him or make a peer review spot-check count in place of a spot-check at the next FAC.
I hope that a satisfactory conclusion can be reached, and thank you for your time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Morrison Man (talk • contribs) 00:29, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't plan on getting involved in this, except to say that my October comment that you linked to is a follow up. The original is from June and can be found higher up on that archive page at User talk:Wolverine X-eye/Archive 2#GA nomination of Charles De Geer. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 00:48, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hi, The Morrison Man, let me address this promptly. So your first paragraph talks about the high number of edits I make to GAN pages. Well, I don't necessarily see that as a problem because you're the only editor who has made complaints about this, and if I may, I'm by no means the only editor who exhibits such behavior, so it's not at all clear to me why you're targeting me on this. Now regarding the 3 articles you listed, those were the articles that you brought to my attention in that discussion, and since then I've not repeated the behavior. The Fennec Fox incident is not an issue IMO. The editor in the first GAN clearly stated that they think the article was not up to GA-standards and that I should re-nominate it. Seeing that they were new to GAN and that they happened to be inactive at the time, I decided to help them close the nomination as that was their intention, but they didn't seem to know how to follow through with that. In Example 1, I read the whole discussion and it was pretty clear the editor was a minor. Sure, the talk page owner happened to talk to two people, one a minor, the other not, but they clearly spent more time with the minor talking about irrelevant stuff that aren't wiki-related. The editor even admits that they were in fact talking to a minor. The Fennec fox GAN examples are not personal attacks. They're just criticism. There's a difference. About Pholidota: I got a bit heated after Elmidae insulted and made hostile comments towards me. Yeah, that was a pretty contentious discussion overall. The Narwhal talk page link is not a personal attack or a insult, rather it's simply telling the IP to leave me alone as they were annoying me with those pings. I wanted to be as blunt as possible. The last link is just me explaining to a new editor why I reverted their edit. I said I didn't want to have the conversation again because if you look through the archives, you'll see that we had that exact discussion, but with a different article, before. I didn't think it was gonna happen again, and I sure didn't want it to happen for a third time, so I let the user know. Your last part talks about me not putting effort in my nominations and reviews. Well, I'm not the only editor who struggles to finish reviews, and I'll admit that sometimes I bite off a little more than I can chew. I did finish one of those reviews though. I would also state that I've made over 30 reviews, and out of those 30, I failed to complete maybe six of them. World War I was a drive-by nom, I'll admit, didn't realize that at the time, but that's the only case where I've unwittingly made a drive-by nom, so...We reach the end of your comment, and regarding your remarks about the FAC situation, well all I can say is that I needed insurance before I made another nomination, as the last two noms failed for sourcing issues. I was not confident about my scanning of the article's sourcing, so I needed a source review to see if the sourcing issues were still evident. I did scan a large portion of the article's sourcing but I just needed that extra insurance. Yep, that should be it. Wolverine X-eye (talk) 07:10, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- The fennec fox edits are absolutey casting aspersions.
Is this all about the message I left on your friend's talk page? You don't do much reviewing and judging by this review you also don't seem to be an experienced reviewer. This review has been unfair and your judgment on multiple aspects are off by a long shot
is WP:ASPERSIONS. AlsoI decided to help them close the nomination as that was their intention, but they didn't seem to know how to follow through with that.
- you do not close your own GANs. If you start it, you do not close it. Full stop.The Narwhal talk page link is not a personal attack or a insult
- no, sorry, it is indeed a personal attack. WP:CIVIL is one of the Five Pillars, it is not optional and you seem to spend a lot of time tap-dancing on or over the line of it. I suggest you reconsider your approach in many areas to maintain a civil, collaborative environment. - The Bushranger One ping only 08:10, 11 January 2025 (UTC)- @The Bushranger: I made that comment based on a comment they made here. I also took into consideration the fact that they reviewed my GAN as their very first review less than 24 hours (if I'm not mistaken) after nomination. And so I'd say that's my evidence for the comment. I apologize if this is not enough. Regarding the Narwhal bit, I didn't intend to make the comment a personal aattack. I intended to make it clear to the IP that I didn't want them to annoy me with those pings. I could have handled the situation better, I agree. But what I found annoying was that they attacked me on the basis of a YouTube video that discusses how I wrongfully reverted the creator's edit, only to later realize my mistake, rectifying it accordingly. Nevertheless, I will definitely take your words above into consideration. Wolverine X-eye (talk) 09:01, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- The fennec fox edits are absolutey casting aspersions.
- Hi, The Morrison Man, let me address this promptly. So your first paragraph talks about the high number of edits I make to GAN pages. Well, I don't necessarily see that as a problem because you're the only editor who has made complaints about this, and if I may, I'm by no means the only editor who exhibits such behavior, so it's not at all clear to me why you're targeting me on this. Now regarding the 3 articles you listed, those were the articles that you brought to my attention in that discussion, and since then I've not repeated the behavior. The Fennec Fox incident is not an issue IMO. The editor in the first GAN clearly stated that they think the article was not up to GA-standards and that I should re-nominate it. Seeing that they were new to GAN and that they happened to be inactive at the time, I decided to help them close the nomination as that was their intention, but they didn't seem to know how to follow through with that. In Example 1, I read the whole discussion and it was pretty clear the editor was a minor. Sure, the talk page owner happened to talk to two people, one a minor, the other not, but they clearly spent more time with the minor talking about irrelevant stuff that aren't wiki-related. The editor even admits that they were in fact talking to a minor. The Fennec fox GAN examples are not personal attacks. They're just criticism. There's a difference. About Pholidota: I got a bit heated after Elmidae insulted and made hostile comments towards me. Yeah, that was a pretty contentious discussion overall. The Narwhal talk page link is not a personal attack or a insult, rather it's simply telling the IP to leave me alone as they were annoying me with those pings. I wanted to be as blunt as possible. The last link is just me explaining to a new editor why I reverted their edit. I said I didn't want to have the conversation again because if you look through the archives, you'll see that we had that exact discussion, but with a different article, before. I didn't think it was gonna happen again, and I sure didn't want it to happen for a third time, so I let the user know. Your last part talks about me not putting effort in my nominations and reviews. Well, I'm not the only editor who struggles to finish reviews, and I'll admit that sometimes I bite off a little more than I can chew. I did finish one of those reviews though. I would also state that I've made over 30 reviews, and out of those 30, I failed to complete maybe six of them. World War I was a drive-by nom, I'll admit, didn't realize that at the time, but that's the only case where I've unwittingly made a drive-by nom, so...We reach the end of your comment, and regarding your remarks about the FAC situation, well all I can say is that I needed insurance before I made another nomination, as the last two noms failed for sourcing issues. I was not confident about my scanning of the article's sourcing, so I needed a source review to see if the sourcing issues were still evident. I did scan a large portion of the article's sourcing but I just needed that extra insurance. Yep, that should be it. Wolverine X-eye (talk) 07:10, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
KirillMarasin promoting medical treatments and "conversion therapy"
KirillMarasin (talk · contribs)
I think we have two related problems with KirillMarasin. First up, he promotes and seeks to legitimise the pseudo-medical practice of "conversion therapy" (diff1, diff2, diff3 Yes, that really is a medical claim being sourced to Reddit!) and secondly he adds medical claims to other articles which are either unreferenced or which are improperly referenced to sites selling supplements (diff5, diff6, diff7 and diff8). Attempts by multiple editors to warn him have been unavailing and I read this as both a personal attack and a highly offensive suggestion that I practice "conversion therapy" on myself. Beyond that, this is a clear and sustained case of WP:POV and WP:IDHT. --DanielRigal (talk) 02:51, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Even if my edits are not high-quality, the article on conversion therapy has a lot of gaslighting, saying time and time again there are no treatments, when the opposite is true. KirillMarasin (talk) 09:54, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Not according to science baaed RS which is all that matters from Misplaced Pages's PoV Nil Einne (talk) 10:02, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- What is RS? KirillMarasin (talk) 12:47, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Good question! You were supposed to know that in order to edit Misplaced Pages. tgeorgescu (talk) 12:57, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- What is RS? KirillMarasin (talk) 12:47, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Not only are your edits not of high-quality, at least two of your sources are garbage, and you're edit warring at that article as well. You need to step away from that article. Isaidnoway (talk) 10:30, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why would you even consider 4Chan to be a legitimate source for anything, let alone a science/medicine-based topic? That, in of itself, is a major issue. King Lobclaw (talk) 11:57, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Not according to science baaed RS which is all that matters from Misplaced Pages's PoV Nil Einne (talk) 10:02, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just looking at the three conversion therapy edits mentioned by DanielRigal, this one makes a medical claim without citing any sources at all and this one cites reddit and 4chan for medical claims. Finally, this one cites a paper in the Journal of Neurosurgery for the claim that
some methods of conversion therapy were working
. The paper in question in fact says thatwhile Heath claimed that the patient had a full recovery and engaged exclusively in heterosexual activities, other sources argued that the patient continued to have homosexual relationships
. Any of these diffs on their own would be totally unacceptable. Additionally, a glance at Special:History/Conversion therapy shows that KirillMarasin not only added these claims once, but reinstated them after their removal was adequately explained. e.g. here they add the "some methods of conversion therapy were working" claim, here the addition is reverted with the edit summary explaining that the source does not support the addition, here KirillMarasin reinserts the text with the edit summaryIt doesn't need deleting, I'll try to edit it to better reflect the article.
When somebody reverts an edit because it contradicts the cited source, you need to fix that error before reinstating it. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 10:56, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Would a WP:TOPICBAN on WP:GENSEX prevent further inappropriate editing? Note this is a question, I'm not familiar with WP:GENSEX and it may very well not have any bearing or may be the wrong approach here. --Yamla (talk) 11:45, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think there's a CIR issue as well. The slipping of sources from 4chan into a contentious topic seems either like overt trolling or a serious lack of understanding of sources.King Lobclaw (talk) 11:55, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd still like to WP:AGF, even though I'm beginning to have my doubts. I think this is a CIR issue first and foremost, with a mixture of POV-pushing and lack of understanding of WP:NPOV, WP:RS and WP:MEDRS. Since they are here, and reading this page, and haven't edited since they started following this conversation, I think @KirillMarasin: should read those policies first, before they attempt to edit again. If they continue with their current editing pattern, though, a WP:TOPICBAN would be entirely appropriate. — The Anome (talk) 12:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Not all of the problem edits have been WP:GENSEX; the ones listed by the OP aa diffs 5 through 8 are on sexual health matters not under that GENSEX guideline. A more general medical topic ban, widely construed, may be more appropriate. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 14:18, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think there's a CIR issue as well. The slipping of sources from 4chan into a contentious topic seems either like overt trolling or a serious lack of understanding of sources.King Lobclaw (talk) 11:55, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
KirillMarasin (talk · contribs) has been here for more than a decade. It's hard to believe that suddenly, he doesn't know that 4Chan isn't a usable source - and in a topic like this, too. Signs are pointing to NOTHERE. King Lobclaw (talk) 14:13, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
History of disruptive COI editing
I didn't wanted to go through this, but I'm done being patient. There appears to be a long history of disruptive COI editing by Armandogoa on his father's article Carlos Alvares Ferreira. He usually edits this page after every few months or so, and seems to add unreferenced content as per his latest edit done on the page here . I had many of his edits reverted myself.
I also did place a COI warning on his talk page over a year ago . But he seems to not understand it this way. His father is an active politician, and considering our WP:BLP policies, I think this editor should be blocked to prevent any other controversial or peacock material added in the future. Rejoy(talk) 07:54, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
Disruptive Sumeshmeo
Sumeshmeo has got 5 warnings together from December 2024 till now, to stop changing content without a reliable source but continues to do so ignoring and being non-responsive to warnings. Sumeshmeo got 3 same warnings in 2023. I do not think that Sumeshmeo is here to improve Misplaced Pages pages. RangersRus (talk) 10:55, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- In future, it helps if you provide diffs when making a report so people are better able to assess it. Having looked at Sumesheo's contribs, here is a recent egregious example where not only do they change the text of the article, they also change the title of the source cited so it appears to support that claim (and break the url in the process). In fact as far as I can tell, every single edit they have made so far this month is to increase the claimed gross takings of a film, without ever providing a source or explanation, in most cases explicitly contradicting the existing cited source. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 11:49, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
Uncivil behavior
@Jasper Deng: has been continually bludgeoning a conversation about a page rename, casting unsupported aspersions, acting uncivilly, and biting newcomers (me).
Teahouse
During a lively discussion about a page rename, it occurred to me that I might be able to improve this encyclopedia by starting a conversations that could POTENTIALLY lead to future guidance or policy regarding how to name natural disaster articles. So I went to the teahouse to ask how I can start a conversation about that.
They followed me to the teahouse and:
- Bludgeoned me
- casted aspersions
it is frowned upon to post about an ongoing decision making discussion elsewhere (unless it is to raise serious misconduct concerns) as it could be considered WP:CANVASSING, particularly when the incipient consensus is leaning against your position
You'll note that my post in the teahouse was asking how to start a conversation about potential future policy improvements, not at all about the ongoing conversation. And even if it were, the practice is quite common on noticeboards, why would it be any different in the teahouse such that it would be WP:CANVASSING?
In the process they said Don't overthink this
to me.
To which I replied Please do not patronize me by suggesting I am overthinking this, and please don't WP:BLUDGEON me by responding to every comment I've made to someone else regarding this.
- They then willfully disrespected me by again saying in part
I'm afraid you are overthinking it
- tried to intimidate me because of their number of edits and made continued, unsupported, exaggerated claims of misconduct against me
Don't cast the WP:ASPERSION of "willful disrespect".
Talk page
Back on the talk page, they:
- Once again bludgeoned the process by replying to my vote
- Accused me of moving the goalposts
- Bludgeoned another editor as well
- Collapsed their bludgeoning with a close note that they agree (with themself?) that their comments were
more than necessary after taking a second look
Just recently I noticed they continued to reply to others' votes that went against their POV
So I warned them to stop bludgeoning on their talk page
Rather than replying, they deleted it from their talk page. In the edit note, they:
- Again tried to intimidate me because of their status as an experienced editor
As someone who is still rather inexperienced you should not be attempting to warn experienced editors like me.
- Cast aspersions and threatened me with a block
Your comment here is grossly uncivil and if you ever comment like this again you will be the one considered for a block.
They then left a message on my talk page:
- Casting aspersions and threatening me with a block again
Posting that WP:SHOUTING on my talk page is grossly uncivil and unwarranted and will get you blocked the next time you do that.
- And again attempted to intimidate me because of their status as an experienced editor
But you are in absolutely no position to attempt to enjoin me from further participation in that process. You do not understand the policies and guidelines you're trying to warn me about; don't pretend that you do (especially with respect to WP:OWN).
- And again, cast more unsupported aspersions in an uncivil manner
Coming to my talk page unprompted and without the other user's involvement is crossing the line to you harassing me. Cut it out.
This has been an upsetting experience for me. Perhaps I am too sensitive to edit on wikipedia.Delectopierre (talk) 12:19, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- After leaving making this post, I noticed @Jasper Deng also left a comment about me, casting even more aspersions in a thread I started on @Cullen328's talk page that had absolutely nothing to do with @Jasper Deng:
This user needs mentorship as they are flying too close to the sun. The comment I just removed from my talk page and the one I left them at User talk:Delectopierre#Stop suggests that I am not the most effective one to convey that to them. My participation in the RM isn't that unusual and I consider their comments highly condescending and, now, aggressive to the point that I will want to see them blocked if they do it again.
Delectopierre (talk) 12:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC)- Both users are right: Jasper Deng when they say, "I am not the most effective one to convey that to them", and Delectopierre when saying, "Perhaps I am too sensitive". Phil Bridger (talk) 14:01, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- My impression, based on this brouhaha: you are easily offended, but at the same time keen to tell off others. Bad combination. While Jasper Deng dislikes being harrangued on his talk page, but at the same time tacks unrelated complaints about you onto conversations not involving him. Bad combination. From the unassailable heights of my own moral perfection, I suggest you both simmer down and get back to editing. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 14:07, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
Review of an article deletion
The correct venue for this is WP:DRV. Black Kite (talk) 14:27, 11 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hello, I will like to request a review on the deletion of the article on Prisca Abah Theirson (talk) 14:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Category: