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== Why there is no mention of his family? ==


Does he have a wife, kids? Why there is no mention of his family? ] (]) 13:46, 20 May 2024 (UTC)


== Misinformation ==


The recently added section "Anomalies and possible unnatural death" contains misinformation, based on short-lived rumors and conspiracy theories. Please remove the section. ] (]) 14:24, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
{{todo}}


:ALL information is properly sourced and cited. the times of India, Indian express and other sources are reliable and credible.
:the title accurately depicts the content. anomalies in the narrative provided by the police, ashram, trust and other agencies in relation to what information was printed or reported on.
:much like the murders at ashram. facts, narratives and official stories don't add up. yet the various pieces of information are reported and documented. why don't you take down that page?
:just because its been 13 years and things have been brushed aside and washed cleaned doesn't mean these events weren't reported on.
:they appeared in the times of India.
:this section does not reflect conspiracy theories but reported on events.
:there is a "criticism " section is there not? why are those "events" or conspiracy theories not removed? some scenarios are plain redundant, willful character assassination and unproven lies. yet the section exists.
:why? because it was written about and played a role in the information surrounding Sai Baba. although irrelevant or dated or based on opinion, it was written about.
:as were the anomalies and pieces of information contrary to the "official narrative".
:the section, as the "criticism" section, provides cited information that appeared in reputable news outlets and has a place, is relevant and although, difficult to swallow without getting emotional, it was written about.
:your passions and emotions dont take precedent.
:section is well cited, properly cited and from credible sources.
:it holds the same place as the criticism section. ] (]) 05:54, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
::All misinformation and conspiracy theories on the page need to go, and not just the Anamolies.. section. Why are we hounding someone who spent every moment for the upliftment of humanity? It is not about editors'/readers' passions and emotions, but about truth and facts which a Misplaced Pages article should stick to, isn't it? ] (]) 06:22, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
:::Sai Baba’s virtues, divinity comment and unfettered devotion to serving humanity is not in question.
:::The section is well sourced, properly cited, and correctly quoted ] (]) 07:06, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
::::The times of India and various other sources are, according to Misplaced Pages, reliable and credible. Criticism section, like I said, has events that are unproven and most likely untrue BUT still are reported on.
::::Therefore, when correctly cited and worded, appear in Misplaced Pages.
::::Same with this section.
::::if you feel all these sections should be removed then the “issue” is with you and your view, not the way it is presented - which as I have stated and also agreed by the person who Undid your edits - which is in accordance with Misplaced Pages guidelines. ] (]) 07:14, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::please review previous talk page issues. most importantly the criticism section and see how much effort and time, consensus and argument went into getting a phrasing that would satisfy everyone.
:::::try to edit the criticism section and you will find warnings not to edit certain parts because of these efforts...
:::::that being said, emotional responses and opinions of what[REDACTED] is or is not does not justify removing a section - one that is well cited, sourced and worded. ] (]) 08:23, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
::::::Yes, the page reads much better now than it did earlier, thanks to the efforts.
::::::Some of the cited sources in Anomalies part have attributed quotes to unnamed/unverifiable sources and have a speculative tone than factual reporting. Unilateral claims, reactions, rumors and speculation can be condensed into a few lines than given so much prominence. ] (]) 02:01, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::All the information is correctly cited from credible sources. If condensed and left unsourced, it will then look like a story/speculation etc.
:::::which will not hold up to Misplaced Pages standards and decrease the quality of the page. ] (]) 13:08, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
::::::You can condense the part and still cite the sources.
::::::The problem is not with the citations but giving disproportionate space to ephemeral speculative reports arising in the wake of the confusion following the demise of the Guru. ] (]) 10:58, 11 September 2024 (UTC)


== Gunnar Otis, not a real person ==


I've removed a paragraph from the article, citing "Gunnar Otis, professor of psychology, University of Reykjavik" as an authority, from a book by Paul William Roberts. The encounter between Roberts and "Gunnar Otis" is said to have taken place in 1976, but the University of Reykjavik was founded in 1998. No professor of psychology with that name has ever existed in Iceland. ] (]) 03:00, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
==Why is there a clean up tag?==
Can somebody please explain the clean up tag or I will remove it. ] 06:03, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


:From what I’ve been able to find (ie. nothing), ''no person with that name has ever existed on Earth.'' ]]]™ 08:28, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
I understand that ] added a cleanup tag, because he felt that the citations in the references were too long. I do agree to some extent with Jossi, but I think this is a minor issue and that a clean up tag falsely suggests there is something seriously wrong with this article. There may be something seriously wrong with this article, but this is not too long citations. ] 21:37, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

==Another Complete Distortion Of Facts==
Here is yet '''another''' complete distortion of facts by Andries. Refer to that references Alexander Deutsch. Andries stated:
:''The American psychiatrist Alexander Deutsch visited the ashram of the guru Sathya Sai Baba in India and there noted that a group of young followers interpreted disconfirming events as tests of faith, engineered by the guru or as the guru's divine play, just as Krishna's leelas.''
Andries summarization and citation is '''wholly''' and '''unequivocally''' misleading and deceptive. Let us read Deutsch's '''actual''' words and context, which is based on his trip to SSB's ashram in the mid '''1970's''' (Andries left out the time-frame as well):
:''An even more paradoxical example of rebelliousness in cult members was observable in a substantial number of Western followers of Sai Baba. Emerging from the hippie counterculture, they appeared to project their anarchic and rebellious trends on their leader and distorted his teachings which were actually quite conservative. His playfulness, seductiveness, and magic and his controversial and unorthodox postion within his own culture facilitated the projection and distortion. The holy man angrily recounted for me, in an interview, the misdeeds of the Westerners: they illegally overextended their visas; the men and women were too close to each other; they embarrassed him in front of his Indian devotees; they followed behind him in a car when he left the ashram; some women touched him; and so on. The misreading of Swami by the Western devotees is discussed further in the following section...(Following Section)...At Sai Baba's ashram, as I indicated above, the Western devotees flagrantly denied the holy man's growing disenchantment with them, which was cleary shown by his not granting them personal interviews and other indications of unfriendliness. When I told the devotees what Sai Baba had told me about his negative feelings toward them, the characteristic response was that the holy man didn't really mean what he told me, that he was telling me, a Western doctor, just what I wanted to hear, and that the whole episode was meant as a test of their faith in him. (The notion that a disconfirming event is engineered by the leader as a test of faith seems common in cult thinking.) A theological justification for their thinking was readily avaiable here too. Did not Sai Baba proclaim himself as an incarnation of Krishna and did not Krishna play tricks (leela) on his devoted followers?''
Andries attempted to infer that Deutsch claimed that ''"young followers"'' (an age inference '''never''' suggested by Deutsch) ''"interpreted disconfirming events as tests of faith, engineered by the guru or as the guru's divine play"''. What Andries forgot to mention was that these ''"disconfirming events"'' were actually the '''Western follower's''' rebelliousness, '''their''' distortions of SSB's teachings and '''their''' refusal to accept SSB's negative assessment about them! Of course, none of this is relevant to SSB himself. Therefore, I am removing the entire reference on the ] and ] articles unless Andries can justify including this reference that has nothing to do with SSB himself, but has '''everything''' to do with SSB's early Western followers in the mid 1970's. ] <sup>]-]</sup> 22:41, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
:I disagree. It is a minor distortion if it is a distortion at all. ] 23:03, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Andries, what does it have to do with SSB? ] <sup>]-]</sup> 23:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
:Deutsch relates the interpretation by the follower of SSB's behavior to SSB's claims ("''proclaim himself as an incarnation of Krishna''"), so it has a lot to do with SSB. This obsveration by Deutsch is not unique. Similar observations of non-rigorious interpretations by followers of SSB's behavior were made by Tanya Datta and Matthijs van der Meer in reputable sources. ] 23:16, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Andries, that is right. This is '''all about''' a segment of early Western followers of SSB from the mid 1970's. Not about SSB himself. Of course, if you want to argue that, according to Deutsch, a segment of early Western followers from the mid 1970's justified '''their''' distortions to SSB's teachings, projected '''their''' rebellious trends onto SSB and refused to accept SSB's negative assessments about them by using theological justifications, go right ahead. I guess you are now targeting early Western devotees from the mid 1970's? Where does this fit into the ] and ] articles? This article is about SSB, not devotees. The Guru article is about the term Guru (and associated material), not devotees.

By the way, since you are now talking, I filed an RFA involving you: ] <sup>]-]</sup> 23:50, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

==Regarding Recent Controversial Edit==
For the record, I would like to note that Andries is adding a '''controversial''' edit that was still listed as an edit to be mediated. Although there is currently a RFA regarding Andries behavior and controversial edits on Misplaced Pages, he is '''continuing''' with his '''controversial''' edits despite this fact. One can only wonder why. ] <sup>]-]</sup> 00:28, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


==Did You Know Answer to And==

Hello And,

This was your question...

"What is your point? Are you suggesting that the India Today article cannnot be used in the article because it is too sensational? Andries 14:30, 11 June 2006 (UTC) "

What is this Andries? It was never mentioned that you should or shouldn't use those articles. The India Today reference was meant to indicate the way a media house used Sathya Sai to promote the sales of their copies, especially when it is their 25th anniversay issue.

i thought that it is necessary to bring that perspective into the discussion room too..., considering the fact that India Today is cited as a reference from India whenever there is a discussion.

Am not able to understand how the thought came to your mind that i objected to somebody using that article...

Have you become so obsessed with the anti-Sai progaganda that you are reacting to each and everything?

"Mad"
==]==
This article is the subject of ] between adversaries ] and ] Abritration is the last step in ] and leads to binding solutions.

*] main page with the following subpages
**] '''all editors of Misplaced Pages are welcome to give evidence'''
**]
**]
] 07:39, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

==Regarding Kreydick's Testimony==
Andries is requesting a citation stating: ''"Kreydick's statement cannot be retrieved from the clerk of court and hence breaks[REDACTED] policy verifiability."'' It is not my fault if Andries cannot obtain these public court records. I obtained them: . As one can see, these are '''actual''' scans to '''actual''' public court records. Therefore, I suggest Andries take out his request for citation. ] <sup>]-]</sup> 00:42, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
:How did you get them then? If they can only obtained from a lawyer, but not from court records then they are not public records and this breaks ]. Please give a contact address where I can get these records. ] 03:03, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
No lawyer can give out court records that are not public. I obtained them the same way I obtained the self-dismissed court records. You do the homework yourself. I provided actual scans to these public court records and if you do not accept them, that is your problem. Not mine. Remove your demand for a citation or I will. ] <sup>]-]</sup> 03:38, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
:If you refuse to to provide an address where I can obtain Kreydick's statement from public records then I will remove it because this would break ]. ] 03:41, 13 July 2006 (UTC) I amended 03:43, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I suggest you get the opinion of other editors. I already provided scans to public court records that come from a certified shorthand reporter for the court. That's all I need to do to support this reference. You have the scans in front of your face and deny them because you couldn't obtain them. That is your problem. Not mine. Ask the court how to obtain them. I am not your secretary. ] <sup>]-]</sup> 03:56, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
:Do you mean that you refuse to give an address where I can retrieve the statement from Kreydick from public records? It is your problem, not mine, to give an address, because information in Misplaced Pages needs to be ]. If I used information from a book then I also have to give at least a book title and author name and preferrably ISBN nr. This is the responsibility of the person adding contents to the article, not the responsibility wishing to verify what is written. ] 04:09, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Andries, do you have problems reading? The name of the court is clearly stated on the records. They have a website. Do the research yourself. 1+1=2 ] <sup>]-]</sup> 04:12, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
:Okay, others have tried before to get Kreydick's statement from the court but failed, nevertheless I will try get it too from the court . ] 04:23, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Court records are easily accessible in the US, Andries. You just contact the court clerk. and ask You can do that online at: https://www.lasuperiorcourt.org/OnlineServices/CivilImages/index.asp. Concerning your tone of voice, and given the ArbCom case, I friendly suggestion would be that you guys disengage until the ArbCom case makes its ruling. ] <small>] &bull; ]</small> 05:05, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
:What is wrong with my tone? I did not use not a single unfriendly word. I used the word ''please''. Why do we have to disengage until the arbcom makes a decision? I sincerely cannot understand. ] 05:20, 13 July 2006 (UTC) amended 05:22, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Andries, so you have '''not''' attempted to get the court records yourself, contact the court or make '''any''' other basic enquiries about the court records '''before''' accusing me of violating ] policy?

The scanned copies clearly show: 1) The name of the court; 2) The court case number; 3) The date; 4) The place of the deposition; 5) The time of the deposition; 6) The name of witness; 7) The name and signature of the certified shorthand reporter; 8) The name of the plaintiff, 9) The name of the defendent and 10) The name of the court case. The reference on the SSB article clearly states: ''"Alaya Rahm vs. Sathya Sai Baba Society, filed in the Superior Court of California on January 6th 2005, County Of Orange - USA, Case No. 05cc01931"''. Despite '''all''' this easily verifiable information, Andries has the audacity to state: ''"If I used information from a book then I also have to give at least a book title and author name and preferrably ISBN nr"''. All the relevant information needed is provided on the scans and on the Misplaced Pages reference, contrary to Andries assertion.

Therefore, the citation is being removed pending an actual inquiry not based on speculation or un-named ''"others"'' questionable efforts. ] <sup>]-]</sup> 05:28, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
:SSS108, others have tried to verify the court record and they were unable to do so. ] 07:14, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Andries, usually when someone blames another person for breaking Misplaced Pages policy, they cite factual data (including names). Care to tell me the name to these ''"other people"'' and how they allegedly tried to verify the court records? ] <sup>]-]</sup> 07:31, 13 July 2006 (UTC)


I subscribed to http://www.courtca.com/home.html - which website claims to be the No. 1 search facility for all US Court Records and I searched extensively for any depositions made in the Alaya Rahm case. My username there was dc98fd. No record of any deposition by Lewis Kreydick was found, not any reference whatever to the name of Lewis Kreydick. I contacted the support service of Court Records at detective@supporthelp.net for assistance, but they were also unable to find the materials I was seeking.
Further, the data is not available on any other website found where US Court Records are available, such as at http://appellatecases.courtinfo.ca.gov/search.cfm?dist=0 when the correct case number is entered (i.e. 05CC01931). None of the Keydrick materials are formally available court documents, since - as is clear from the Court Record of self-dismissal by A. Rahm - they were not presented in court and the case was dropped. Therefore they are privy to the plaintiff and defendents and their lawyers, which means they are not official, independent sources. A signed statement from the Clerk of Court that these depositions can be regarded as official and public would otherwise be required. All these references should therefore be removed from the Sathya Sai Baba Wiki page. ] 20:35, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
:ProEdits, did you request the actual court records? I did and I got Kreydicks deposition with my request. Therefore, your internet search is trumped by my actual request, which included Kreydics video-taped deposition. ] <sup>]-]</sup> 15:33, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
::In order to maintain transparency, ] is ], an Anti-Sai Activist who happens to be a very close associate of Andries . ] <sup>]-]</sup> 15:37, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
It appears, once again, that I have to do the footwork since Andries and Robert Priddy (aka ]) do not know how to properly search for court records. Go to the → Click on → Click On "Case" → Enter the Case Number: 05cc01931 → All of the pertinent information about Alaya Rahm's self-dismissed court case are provided. No ''"subscription"'' needed. Using Priddy's faulty method, one cannot get '''any''' court records whatsoever. I would duplicate this information, but it is prohibited by the terms and conditions on the court case website. I hope this puts to rest Anti-Sai Activist's relentless attempts to remove this information even though actual scans to actual court records have been provided by me to back up this . ] <sup>]-]</sup> 16:01, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
:] did very serious effort to verify Kreydick's deposition and was unable to do so, incl. extensive e-mail correspondence to the court archive contact persons. Therefore the Kreydick's deposition breaks ] and I have given the article a warning. ] 16:07, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
:SSS108, Kreydick's deposition is not listed with the method that you described hereabove. ] 16:10, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
None of the court records are provided. You have to pay for them and request them to see them. I got the records and provided actual scans and you still say they are not verfiable. That is your problem, not mine. Robert Priddy made great efforts and ended up empty handed. I found the relevant information within a couple of minutes. ] <sup>]-]</sup> 16:25, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
::ProEdits did pay for access to the court archives and was unable to verify Kreydick's deposition. ] 16:27, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Based on ProEdits comments, he was unable to verify any court records. Not just Kreydicks (take a look at the link he provided). And as I said before, I have the actual court records. I scanned them and provided them here and you '''still''' say they are unverfiable. Of course, you are upset about this because it argues against your POV. ] <sup>]-]</sup> 16:32, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
:I also want to point out that using the method listed above, under ''"Register Of Actions"'', there is a ''"Stipulation - Other"'' that happened on 3/16/2006, which happens to be the '''exact''' date for Kreydick's deposition . ] <sup>]-]</sup> 16:57, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
::User:ProEdits had extensive communication with the court clerks but he was unable to retrieve the depositions from them. How did you retrieve the deposition? ] 18:49, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
ProEdits did not have extensive communication with the court clerks. He tried to obtain the court record information from court-record sites and apparently failed. As I have already shown, the court-record information '''exists''' and can be requested because they are now public record. I have already given you all the information you need to obtain the records. Next, you'll be asking me to purchase them for you. I have provided all details and even scans and you demand more. This is your problem, not mine. If you think you are right, time to get opinions from other editors and find a consensus. ] <sup>]-]</sup> 04:28, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
:No, you did not provide enough information to retrieve the deposition. ProEdits did serious but unsuccessful efforts to get it. I am still waiting for an answer from you to my question how you got the deposition? ] 07:17, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

== The Times reference ==

The reference provided for the last edit is from Rick Ross' website and does not have any information about the original source. The citation is referred to be from The Times, but The Times archive does not have such article. See: . ] <small>] &bull; ]</small> 21:58, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
:It really was an article in ], see e.g. , and ] 22:31, 15 July 2006 (UTC) amended 22:34, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
:In addition, the article itself meantions the names of ''The Times'' three times. ] 22:56, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
::As the link from The Times is dead (see: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,7-2001295208,00.html ), then we need to use the proper format for the cite as per ], as you do not seem to have seen the original article. ] <small>] &bull; ]</small> 01:23, 16 July 2006 (UTC)


I searched the Times archives for the year 2001 under Dominic Kennedy's name and it appears the Suicide, sex and the guru article was either misnamed or it was a subtitle as the articles I found for that date by Kennedy were as follows:

The Times
MON 27 AUG 2001
Ed: 4M
Pg: 3
Word Count: 872 'I sought peace and couldn't find it'
Michael Pender, a student, hoped that Sai Baba would be able to cure him of HIV. Like thousands of devotees from around the world, Mr Pender went on a pilgrimage to Sai Baba's ashram in Puttaparthi, southern India, expecting to find magic and divinit...

The Times
MON 27 AUG 2001
Ed: 4M
Pg: 3
Word Count: 652 Three died after putting their faith in guru
Three British men have died mysteriously after becoming followers of an Indian mystic famed as a "god man" and miracle worker. Sai Baba's activities are being studied by the Foreign Office which is considering issuing an unprecedented warning against...

Very odd that there appear to be two articles listed on the exact same page for the exact same date, one article having 872 words and the other, 652.

] 09:38, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

::Fascinating.... What should we do about that article? It may not cross the threshold for ]... ] <small>] &bull; ]</small> 15:42, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
:::what do u mean not verifiable? U can check the hard copy of the Times of that date. ] 16:17, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
::::How? Let's ask Freelanceresearch. ] <small>] &bull; ]</small> 17:14, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
It's true. That article is not listed in ''The Times'' archive. Only two are: . Do a search for ''"suicide, sex and the guru"'' and nothing shows up. Therefore Andries, unless you can provide a verifiable reference, it is going to be removed as per ] (which you should have no problem with considering your standards in upholding ]: . ] <sup>]-]</sup> 02:42, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
:it can only be removed it if you or somebody else was unable to find it in the hardcopy archives of the Times. ] 05:17, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
:Verifiability does not mean that it has be accessible online. ] 05:21, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
:If you google on the name of the article then it is clear that it used to be available online. Online copies can be found e.g here. ] 05:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
The Times provides summaries to archived articles. That article is not listed. The other two are. So it not in their archives and you cannot prove it exists. The links you cited do not provide a means to verify the article. ] <sup>]-]</sup> 06:31, 1 August
2006 (UTC)
:I do not have to prove its existence. The article only has to be verifiable You can verify its existence and contents by checking the hardcopy of the Times. ] 15:06, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
::You are right, unless its existence is disputed. In which case the burden to provide a way to verify the source is on the editor adding the material. ] <small>] &bull; ]</small> 16:13, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
:::No, you are misinterpreting policy. I gave a date, name, publication, and author. This makes it verifiable to anyone who is willing to do the effort. ] 16:35, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with SSS108. The two articles listed for that date do not match the title of the one claimed so we have no proof of the actual date of that article. The url date (2001295442) looks like it may have been the 29th of May, not 27th of August but since it is not in the archives it cannot be proven and why it is missing is a mystery, if in fact it existed. Contacting the author may be the only way to find out the true status of that article. ] 08:57, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
:I am not inclined to believe Andries. After all, he got the name to Premanand's book completely wrong and left it that way for many months. The fact remains that 2 out of 3 of Dominic Kennedy's articles '''have been''' and '''can be''' verified by ''The Times'' archive. One cannot. That means it is not in their archive which casts doubts on it's origins and verifiability. How to request the article from ''The Times'' to verify it when it is '''not''' in their archives? When it came to Kreydicks deposition, Andries immediately wanted it removed based on the word of his cronies (he didn't even research it himself) even though I provided all the relevant information and '''scans''' to the actual documents. Now he is arguing for the inclusion of an article that cannot be verified from it's alleged official source (i.e., ''The Times''). This shows how Andries flip-flops on the standards he uses when it comes to material that argues in favor of his POV. It is my intent to remove the source unless Andries can provide information that verifies it. So far, the title, date and newspaper name have yielded '''no''' verifiable results. ] <sup>]-]</sup> 16:53, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
::The burden of proof that the article exists is only on me when other editors did serious but unsuccessful effort to verify it. Please contact the Times first or check the hardcopies of the Times. I read the article when it came out and there are several independent sources that mention the article without disputing its existence. ] 17:00, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, the burden of proof is on you. Why aren't '''you''' attempting to get the hard copy? '''Once again''' (not sure how many times I have to say this) one '''cannot''' request the hard copy from ''The Times'' because it is '''not''' in their archives to request. Maybe we need a Dutch translator to make it clearer? ] <sup>]-]</sup> 19:03, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


==Hindu ritual oiling genitals?==
I removed the statement that oiling genitals is a Hindu ritual. This has been discussed many times outside of Misplaced Pages and proponents are always unable to back up this statement with clear reputable sources. ] 16:29, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed with Andries, this disgusting practice has no reputable authority in Hinduism and would horrify 99.99 percent of all Indians.-- ] 21:34, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


Hey , what the hell happened to this section!!! Some vandal took it away. Don't worry folks it will be back and better than before. Count on it! --] 22:09, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


Sorry but I haven't seen any proof from credible sources that Sai Baba is "oiling" genitals. Credible sources I know say oil is put below the navel (emotional center) and that is all. Many healers use oil. I use it in healings all the time. Message therapists use it. It is well known that oil has conductive properties. Only people with dirty minds want to make something sexual of it.] 21:30, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
:There is some proof voiced in reputable sources. Even the Dutch SSO admitted it (in an article by Wim van Dijk) in their offical newsletter for members. Oiling gentitals by SSB of young men is so common that it cannot be seriously denied anymore. ] 09:59, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry Andries but unless a witness was "there" when it happened, it cannot be verified from a second-hand source. Just because a person makes a statement doesn't mean he was there when it happened or even knows what the actual truth is. Your standards of proof are VERY flimsy and would NOT hold up in a court of law. Not to mention you continually change your standards of proof to suit your anti-Sai agenda. Your documentation in this regard is VERY flimsy to say the least. ] 23:04, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

==Footnotes and refs==
Any reason that takes up half the article? Can the notes be summarized?] <font color = "blue"><sub>]</sub></font> 18:48, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
:I will try to do it a bit, but I have been repeatedly accused of selective and out-of-context citing. Selective and out-of-context citing can be verified and corrected easily if the citations are long. ] 08:37, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

== Let's engage the emergency break and shorten the article now! ==

Starting with a reversal of SSS which introdudes a giant citation into the article and broke the references.

And archiving the talk page seems also needed.

] 16:44, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
:Why don't you reference your comments, Pjacobi? Most of the "giant citations" were added by Andries. I also noticed the broke refs and was going to try to remedy it when I had the time. ] <sup>]-]</sup> 18:45, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
::Please note that I enlarged the citations to counter the repeated accusations against me of out-of-context and selective citations. ] 18:47, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
And for the record, I did not break the references as Pjocobi implied. It was done by Askolnick . ] <sup>]-]</sup> 19:04, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

==May be the lawsuits should go out of the article==
See ] ''"Material that is related to their notability, such as court filings of someone notable in part for being involved in legal disputes, are allowable, as are public records such as graduation dates, dates of marriage licenses and the like, where they are publicly available '''and where that information has first been reported by a verifiable secondary source'''.''"] 16:57, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
:I don't think so. Andries specifically has an agenda to remove any information that argues against his Anti-Sai POV. This self-dismissed legal suit compromises many of the arguments made in other references in the article and I will not agree to its removal. The court records are reliable sources. ] <sup>]-]</sup> 18:47, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
::Where have they been reported by a verifiable secondary source? ] 18:51, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
They don't have to be. They are publicly available and verifiable. Court records are cited throughout Misplaced Pages without being referenced to a secondary source. You will have to seek a change of policy first. ] <sup>]-]</sup> 19:02, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
:What do you mean? You mean that you do not want to follow ]? ] 19:04, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I know what you are trying to do Andries. I think we need other editors to weigh in before you attempt to interpret Misplaced Pages policy to suit and push your POV. ] <sup>]-]</sup> 04:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
::Okay, I made a ] about this dispute. If this yields as usual no result then we can try mediation again and then an arbcom case again, though the previous one has not yet ended. ] 09:42, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

So, what's the specific issue in question here? --] 10:10, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
:The inclusion of the lawsuit by Alaya Rahm versus the Sathya Sai Bookshop. This may not be in accordance with ], because it has not been reported by verifiable secondary sources. The information is only sourced to the court recorrds. ] 10:29, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
:Here is the court case ]. ] 10:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
See how sloppy Andries is with his facts? He and his group of Anti-Sai Activists have tried to '''change''' the facts and push their bias by saying ''"Sathya Sai Bookshop"'' instead of the actual name cited in court records ''"Sathya Sai Baba Society"''. The Society is more than just a bookstore and Andries is trying to push '''the very same bias''' on this site that he and his associates push on their Anti-Sai-Baba sites (proving once again that Andries cannot '''factually''' relate information without slanting it with his own POV). Alaya Rahm made very serious allegations against Sathya Sai Baba in the following references: ''Divine Downfall'', ''Secret Swami'', ''Seduced'' and ''India Today''. It is relevant that a lawsuit Alaya Rahm filed and pursued for 16 months was self-dismissed by him with prejudice. Despite rampant claims by Anti-Sai-Baba sites (like the one run by Andries) to there being numerous victims, '''not even one''' single victim came forward to support or defend Alaya Rahm. His legal suit belly-flopped. Therefore, this information (taken from actual court records) is wholly relevant to the serious allegations made in the Sathya Sai Baba article and it should be included on the premise that these court records are reliable sources and verfiable. Andries and ProEdits (both Anti-Sai-Baba Activists) want this information removed because it severely compromises the agenda they wish to push on Misplaced Pages and on their Anti-Sai-Baba Sites (ProEdits has no less than 3 Anti-Sai Sites to his name and had 6 others deleted for defamatory content). ] <sup>]-]</sup> 12:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
:The difference is that the accusations by Alaya Rahm have been reported by verifiable secondary sources unlike the court case that you want to include has not been. Interpreting primary sources is a difficult matter and should be left to responsible persons. It will be clear that I consider you highly incompetent and irresponsible in interpretating information related to SSB.] 12:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
This from someone who's website was threatened with a lawsuit for defamatory content (admittedly: )! ] <sup>]-]</sup> 13:02, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
:What has this to do with the dispute or the article. ? ] 13:05, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
It has to do with your personal attack against me, i.e., ''"I consider you highly incompetent and irresponsible in interpretating information related to SSB"''. ] <sup>]-]</sup> 13:10, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
:It is closely related to the dispute in question. You should not include primary sources in the article for stated reasons. ] 13:13, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
If that is the standard that will be implemented, it will be implemented across the board. Including the removal of the reference to Priddy from the primary source Kevin Shepherd, which has never been referenced by reliable secondary sources. ] <sup>]-]</sup> 13:57, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
:No, Shepherd is a reliable secondary source reporting on Priddy's writings. ] 14:16, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

=== RFC Response ===
I don't see in the current version citations to the court records, nor have I found such in the history I've reviewed. We have instead citations to California statutes - those do not prove that the court case even happened. To cite anything based on the court cases, we need citations to the court case records. Per ], "'''We may not use primary sources whose information has not been made available by a reliable publisher.'''" <nowiki></nowiki> Unless/until the court documents and records are published by a reliable publisher - which for legal records would be a publisher that publishes all cases for a given jurisdiction, we can't use material from the court documents. As there is no such citation ''at this time'', the relevant clause of ] is "Editors should remove any negative material that is either unsourced or relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources from any page, including those concerning living persons and related talk pages, without discussion." I will therefore remove the material as not adequately sourced. Should citations to the court records, as published by a reliable publisher, become available, this evaluation will no longer be relevant. ] 13:16, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
:GRBerry, actual scans to the court records have been referenced here for others to verify: and . These were obtained from the Court itself. ] <sup>]-]</sup> 13:42, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
::Again, can you please tell me how the the court records from Kreydick can be obtained? Serious but unsuccessful efforts were undertaken to verify the information. ] 13:45, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
:::Those links are not to a reliable publisher of court documents, they are to an activist site. Look for a site like ].com, ], or a print media court record like the ] that covers a wide array of cases. That is what a reliable ''publisher'' means in this context, especially since ] says to "Be very firm about '''high-quality''' references". Other reliable secondary sources could be cited, if there was press coverage. When I removed the material, there wasn't even a reliable citation to prove that a court case occurred. ] 21:35, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

For crying out loud, Andries. I have told you '''numerous times'''. I am not going to repeat myself yet '''again'''. ProEdits did not even ask for the records from the proper court! He attempted to get it from secondary sources, i.e., online court-record sites. ] <sup>]-]</sup> 13:48, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
:Even if the material was obtained from the court, that copy in an editors hands would not be "published by a reliable publisher" as required by ]. ] 21:35, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

:::Thanks for the explanation, but there was extensive communication with the court but the court was not able to provide Kreydick's deposition. What is the name of the court official (and e-mail address) that I should contact? ] 14:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Andries, do you have a mental block or something? There was NO ''"extensive communication with the court"''. ProEdits cited the sources for his alleged investigation and they are NOT from any ''"actual court"''. They are from online court-record '''websites'''. Get your facts right and stop trying to distort the facts with inaccurate statements. The court record number on Kreydick's deposition is '''exactly''' the same as the self-dismissed lawsuit from Alaya Rahm. It is part of the '''same record'''. If you don't understand English, I suggest you have someone translate this for you. I already provided the link to the court site in question and I will not spoon-feed you. ] <sup>]-]</sup> 14:42, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
:No, I e-mailed with ProEdits and others and he told me that there was extensive communication with the court. Can you please tell me whom from the court I should contact to get Kreydick's deposition? ] 14:45, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Once again: . And if Priddy really had extensive communication with the court, you should be providing me with information that Priddy sent you to see if he really did. Apparently, neither of you know which court to talk to. That much is clear. ] <sup>]-]</sup> 15:04, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
:Once again, Kreydick's deposition cannot be verified with that information and hence should be removed for violation of ]. ] 15:07, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

:To answer your request about verifiable attempts at verification from e-mails the following. The clerk of court that that had been contacted and was present during the case was A. Du_bois. (without the underscore)] 15:11, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

SSS108, please do not let your frustration get the best of you. Please remain ] in addressing fellow editors. ] <small>] &bull; ]</small> 15:08, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
:Jossie, how would you suggest resolving this issue? Andries is repeating himself like a broken record, saying that the court records are not verfiable when neither he or ProEdits has even contacted the correct court! Despite providing full information about the court records, Andries just sits there demanding information, ad nauseam, that I have already provided to him over and over again. I have contacted the court, got the records, provided full scans. How much more do I have to do to verify the material? The citation of these court records fulfills the requirements as described by GRBerry. ] <sup>]-]</sup> 15:21, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
::No, SSS108 you misrepresented the matter. The court was contacted by ProEdits and others and the deposition cannot be verified with the information that you provided. ] 15:25, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
::SSS108, please tell me how and whom you contacted in the court to get the deposition. ] 15:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Say what you like Andries. The fact remains that I could not have obtained these court records except through the court. I made the effort and got the records. You have not. Period. End of discussion. ProEdits never mentioned contacting the court directly. Now you are claiming he has although you cannot even tell me the name to the correct court (as evidenced by your ceaseless requests for contact information). ] <sup>]-]</sup> 15:31, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
:How did you contact the court? We were unable to verify the deposition. ] 15:43, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

:Another person apart from A. Du_Bois (remove the underscore) who was contacted in our unsuccessful attempts to verify Kreydick's deposition was A. Mara_villa (remove the underscore) of the Orange County Superior Court. ] 15:51, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Several persons have contacted the Clerk of Court directly on our behalf at Orange County Court. A former devotee living in California visited the Orange County Court in August (2006) and obtained all the available public documents relating to the Alaya Rahm self-dismissal case. They are:-

-CASE ID 05CCO1931 REGISTER OF ACTIONS REPORT - PAGES 1 TO 5 [RUN DAT 21-JUN-2006 RUN TIME 11.26 AM

-PROOF OF SERVICE (c.c.p. SECTION 1013 (A),2015.5 (REQUEST FOR DISMISSAL)

-APRIL 20 2006 FILED =- SELF-DISMISSAL - COURT CONSENT

-SERVICE LIST

Not one of these documents includes any depositions by the Sathya Sai Society, OR ANY REFERENCE TO SUCH A DEPOSITION. Lewis Kreydick was not named in any of the documents. I have scans of all the documents, as paid for to the Clerk of Orange County Court. ] 03-Sept.-06

Concerning ''' Bill Aitken ''':
I find no independent, recognised sources on comparative religion recognising Bill Aitken's work, not to mention acclaiming him as an expert. He is simply a writer with personal opinions. Since there is no such public evidence that Bill Aitken is recognised as an "expert on comparative religion", other than that he called himself this in an article written by himself, I am also removing this unwarranted claim from the main page. ] 03-Sept.-06

ProEdits, your personal attacks comprised of defamatory and slanderous comments against me have been removed. If you persist in these defamatory attacks, I will file a complaint againt you on Misplaced Pages. I suggest you talk to Andries about reliable sources. It does not matter what your original research allegedly uncovered about Bill Aitken. The fact remains that a reliable source published information stating that Bill Aitken is a expert on comparative religion . Therefore, it can be referenced as such. ] <sup>]-]</sup> 18:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
:If there is one person who has no right to complain about slanderous attacks then it is SSS108. Your whole website consist of slanderous ad hominem attack. ] 18:39, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Unlike your site, my site has never been threatened with legal action for defamatory content. ] <sup>]-]</sup> 18:40, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I restored the statement by user:ProEdits that user:SSS108 inappropriately removed under the pretext of removing a personal attack against him hereunder. ]
:Not one of these documents includes any depositions by the Sathya Sai Society, OR ANY REFERENCE TO SUCH A DEPOSITION. Lewis Kreydick was not named in any of the documents. I have scans of all the documents, as paid for to the Clerk of Orange County Court. The person who provided them withholds his name because he does not wish to have it defamed on the web and Google and elsewhere on the web by Gerald Moreno - as is constantly being done by him (see http://www.saiguru.net/english/articles/130serious_defamation_attempt.htm) to other critics of Sai Baba.
:Despite his protestations, Moreno has almost certainly been provided the depositions - and not least the video materials with Kreydick he has also posted - by persons (such as their lawyers) acting on behalf of the Sathya Sai Society, probably the Sathya Sai Society's member and chief lawyer - Robert M. Baskin - who is also on record as referring to the matter in very similar terms to Moreno (see Radio Sai's page at http://media.radiosai.org/Journals/Vol_04/01JUL06/collapse-of-calumny.htm) On the other hand, if Moreno has a signed receipt proving that he obtained these documents from the Orange County Court, he should provide a scan of it. The scan will then be sent to the Clerk of Court, with whom we are in touch by phone, for verification of its authenticity. Until such time as genuine proof is provided that these depositions are independently available from the Clerk of Court, the references to Kreydick will be removed. ] 03-Sept.-06
::Since Andries restored these personal attacks against me, I will defend myself: . ] <sup>]-]</sup> 19:02, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

::This talk page has not yet fully degenerated into to making abuse into an art form as is the case in yahoo group sathyasaibaba2 but we are almost there. Keep trying. :) ] 19:11, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
You have had every opportunity to keep the discussion on course and you have instead chose the path of personal attacks. You have no one else to blame but yourself. ] <sup>]-]</sup> 19:14, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Moreno began his defamations and attacks on me long before I even responded to him, which I then did over 2 years later with a single paragraph. He continues his defamation here, with the link which he had to remove from my Robert Priddy Wiki page (see his slander-related link at http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Robert_Priddy&oldid=58646403). where he also began his defamation specifically on Misplaced Pages against me many months ago. He avoids the issue, that he has NO PROOF that the Kreydick material is in the independent public domain. Therefore I shall continue to remove this material in accordance with Wiki policy on sources. --] 19:46, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Bill Aitken's status is not that of an 'expert on comparative religion' - there is absolutely no proof. Moreno has no answer to this fact, so it has been removed again, and will continue to be removed until any reasonable proof may be forthcoming.--] 19:53, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Moreno persists in posting unverified materials about the Kreydick deposition. He thereby demonstrates his complete inability to prove that this deposition was obtained by him from Orange County Court and is available as an independent public documentation. Depositions are not handed out by the Clerk of Court or other Court officials for free, they have to be paid for, and a signed receipt alone can prove this occurred. Otherwise the only conclusion is that the materials wer supplied to Moreno by persons belonging to or acting on behalf of the Sathya Sai Society.
Therefore continued removal of this material.--] 20:45, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

This appears to me to be an attempt to remove information on a technicality, a technicality which actually warrants the ''inculsion of this material''. It appears to have been cited by a secondary source. Anything not verified to the above mentioned sources should be pruned mercilessly, but attempts to remove the cited material are little more than vandalism. ]<sup>] ]</sup> 20:59, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
:what secondary source? ] 21:03, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I find it very interesting that Priddy and Andries are "demanding" documentation concerning the court case (which has been provided and according to the Calumny article verified by Robert Baskin, a licensed attorney) when we have been asking them to provide documentation concerning the alleged affidavits they've been claiming to have and chiming about for years but can never come up with! Talk about duplicitous and hypocritical. Let's see you guys walk your talk for once instead of trying to have it all your way and playing your continuous mind games with regard to the rules.] 02:06, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
:Andries, I suggest you talk to Priddy about reliable sources. Be very careful about letting Priddy set a precedent about trying to remove reliable sources and substitute it with his original research. I can similiarly make arguments against many of the Anti-Sai references in this article. If Priddy wants to set a precedent, then it should be applied to other references as well. Priddy should also not be editing this article so arbitrarily without any form of consensus from other editors. The comment about Aitken was not made by me. It was made by ''"The Week"'' article . Priddy is not a journalist and he cannot cite any reliable sources to counter the views expressed in this source. ] <sup>]-]</sup> 04:22, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I am also going to be contacting the court myself on Tuesday. Monday is a holiday here in the USA. I also want to point out how Andries has no problem when ProEdits (Robert Priddy) removes referenced material but raises a huge fuss when others do it with his sources. ] <sup>]-]</sup> 04:29, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
:I attributed the statement about Bill Aitken. ] 04:34, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
::Well Andries, the article is going to be reverted. I will not leave this issue alone. Your reason for removing the Court Case information is contrary to GRBerry's statements. You, as an Anti-Sai Activist who is the ''"Main Representative, Contact and Supervisor"'' for the '''largest''' Anti-Sathya-Sai-Baba website on the internet have an agenda to push on Misplaced Pages. I have fulfilled all of GRBerry's criteria and provided actual scans to actual court records. Just becuase you and ProEdits have not been able to verify the records (in the last 2 days or so) is no reason to remove it. I have been able to verify it and provided scans to back it up. Neither you or ProEdits can provide any attested statements from anyone from the court stating the documents '''do not''' exist. They do exist and here they are: & . ] <sup>]-]</sup> 04:53, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
:::As usual you are completely wrong. You did not fulfill GRberry's criteria of providing secondary verifiable sources reporting on the court case: it has never been reported by reputable sources other than the court. It is also untrue that we have been only busy with trying to get the court data for the last two days. We have been trying this for months. ] 05:25, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Weren't you just arguing that you wanted to include an article about Sai Baba even though no one could verify its existence in online documents, Andries?
Now you are arguing that you want to remove data because you cannot find the documents online? You continually want it both ways as long as it benefits you. I looked at the Superior Court page on Alaya Rahm's case and it CLEARLY shows that Alaya asked for a dismissal of his case. Now are you going to argue that? The court disclaimer says that some documents may be missing.

" Information Disclaimer
The information provided on and obtained from this site does not constitute the official record of Orange County Superior Court. This information is provided as a service to the general public. Any user of this information is hereby advised that it is being provided "as is". The information provided may be subject to errors or omissions. Visitors to this site agree that the Court is not liable for errors or omissions or any of the information provided. Visitors further consent to access the record only as instructed by the Court and consent to the Court's monitoring of access to the records. Copyright and other proprietary rights may apply to information in a case file absent an express grant of additional rights by the holder of the copyright or other proprietary right. Use of such information is permissible only to the extent permitted by law or court order, and any use inconsistent with proprietary rights is prohibited."

Please let us know when you decide to be consistent with the rules Andries. ] 06:51, 4 September 2006 (UTC)


As the above 'Information Disclaimer' points out "Visitors further consent to access the record only as instructed by the Court and consent to the Court's monitoring of access to the records." Where, therefore, has the Court instructed and given consent on the monitoring of access to the Kreydick deposition record? I am acting within the guidelines of Misplaced Pages in removing reference to this and will continue to do so until independent and controllable proof is provided that the Clerk of Court can provide such documents, in which unlikely case I shall require that exact information on how such documents were provided, so that I can also obtain them. I am interested in the result of Moreno's contacts with the Clerk of Court and expect him in the interests of truth to provide documentation of the response he gets, whether pro or contra his case.
The fact STILL remains, there is no independently sourced information about the Lewis Kreydick deposition.
Andries is evidently acting consistently with the rules now, whatever he may have argued in the past. SSS108 (Gerald 'Joe' Moreno) is an extremely active pro-Sai activist with four pro-Sai websites containing altogether many hundreds of pages pushing his POV wholly one-sidedly (as witnessed here on Misplaced Pages) as he also does on several blogs and numerous bulletin boards, most especially and in sexually-explicit language on Yahoo Groups sathyasaibaba2. He writes all those pages and entries himself, whereas Andries has written less than 5% of the materials on ExBaba.com. Apropos, for the record, ExBaba.com was indeed threatened with legal action by someone who was unable to proceed because the entire threat was an empty bluff. This speaks rather in favour of the website's integrity. --] 07:36, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh give us a break Priddy. Are you going to nit-pick us to death with your avoidance tactics now? Since WHEN were most of your sleazy accusations EVER independently sourced, much less corroborated? All public records can be posted for public viewing. If you don't believe me go to the smokingun website and look at all the court documents and public records they have there. What's wrong, are you afraid people might find out you guys are all bluff and no buster? Better be careful, people are getting awfully tired of your "any sleaze goes" attitude and like David Icke, someday you may have to pay the piper. ] 10:49, 4 September 2006 (UTC)


It is not our business - a SSS108 sophistically claims - to provide any attested statements from anyone from the court stating the documents '''do not''' exist. We do not deny their existence, but we assert they have not been released as public information BY THE COURT, hence as independent sources (i.e. not as Sai Baba propaganda on Sai-devoted web pages). Even so, the deposition of Kreydick is not even central to the case. and played no part whatever in the decision to drop the litigation - the fact is that it was discontinued voluntarily due to what can be termed legal technicalities. The real 'smoking gun' in the Alaya Rahm lawsuit is found at http://www.saiguru.net/english/news/060730_Alaya_Rahm_lawsuit.htm where the real reasons for the self-dismissal are stated. So far I am still unconvinced due to lack of reliable evidence that the depositions made by the Sathya Sai Society are independently available as public documents. THAT is the entire issue... it is quite simple to understand if one is not blinded by bias and wilful obstructionism. IF they have been released by consent of the judge as is required according to the Court website, then they are public documents. They are NOT available on the Internet according to the statement "At this time documents imaged or electronically filed are not available via this application." A representative of the exposé visited the Court and obtained on payment of a fee what he understood was ALL the documents concerning Alaya Rahm available there (as already stated above). We are not the ones who need to be careful - empty threats are not the stock in trade of Sai critics - as we do not break the laws on slander as Freelanceresearch has done on Yahoo groups sathyasaibaba2 endlessly(as conscientiousobjector2000)... As usual, she makes big claims without anything that can be called supporting evidence - circumstantial or otherwise, as is seen above. I am stating fact, not slander without using derogatory terms like 'sleazy'. My web pages shows masses of independent sources - see http://home.no.net/anir/Sai/index.htm --] 12:30, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I wish to correct my former statement that Lisa de Witt was banned from Misplaced Pages. I find I was misinformed by someone who commented thus, but - having checked thoroughly - I find no evidence of it. I am removing my unfortunate mistake. Interesting that Lisa de Witt admits that she and Moreno are co-responsible for the mean-spirited atmosphere here - this was also obvious long, long before I entered this page with some fairly restrained comments about them. However, Moreno was banned, n'est ce pas? Now Moreno and de Witt can rail on here and on Yahoo groups about how Priddy actually made a mistake and admitted it!--] 14:06, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


I have NEVER been banned from using wikipedia! See what I mean Piacobe (or however your name is spelled). Joe and I are not the ones responsible for the mean-spirited atmosphere here. Wherever the anti-Sais travel their toxic behavior and agenda of hate and lies goes with them. When is[REDACTED] going to stop these hatemongers from trying to use[REDACTED] for their own personal soapbox?] 23:01, 4 September 2006 (UTC)


. Freelanceresearch has '''never''' been ''"banned from Misplaced Pages"''. Another shameless lie from ProEdits (Robert Priddy). ] <sup>]-]</sup> 03:06, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


: (aka ProEdits) gets his facts wrong, once again. The link cited does not provide the text to any of the court records. As stated before, under ''"Register Of Actions"'', there is a ''"Stipulation - Other"'' that happened on 3/16/2006, which happens to be the '''exact''' date for Kreydick's deposition. I will contact the court myself tomorrow (today is a holiday). In 's (aka ProEdits) response (under the guise of ''"JuST"''), he gets the facts completely wrong about and I have given a . ''"JuST"'' '''never''' said anything about Kreydick's deposition not existing or being part of the court record (unless the article was updated). As a matter of fact, the Rahm Family treated my comments about Kreydick's deposition as if he actually gave testimony and the deposition existed. The Rahm's '''never''' said anything about Kreydick not giving a deposition. '''Not even one word.''' More lies from Anti-Sais. For example, Priddy (under the guise of ''"JuST"'') said the court case was heard by the Judge on April 28th 2006 despite the fact that the case was '''self-dismissed''' by on April 17th 2006 (). Just one of many significant errors and untruths propagated by ProEdits and Andries. I would also like to point out that neither Andries or ProEdits () made '''any''' reference to the County Court Of Orange before I provided the link (which occurred a couple days ago). Before I posted this information, the cited references were to online court records that did '''not''' mention the County Court Of Orange. Therefore, they have not been in contact with anyone from the County Court Of Orange for ''"months"'', as Andries erroneously contended. ] <sup>]-]</sup> 15:19, 4 September 2006 (UTC)


I gave a link to a Court web page, but never suggested that it contained the text of the court records – I gave the link PRECISELY to show that those records are NOT available on that website! See this once again: "At this time documents imaged or electronically filed are not available via this application.”

Why Moreno also repeats his argument about the existence of the Kreydick deposition is beyond me – I have to my knowledge never denied its existence. The question is whether it is available to the public as a document from the independent County Court. Let us see whether this – despite all our efforts to obtain it – nevertheless can be proved.
Moreno has not – as requested – proved that he obtained the deposition from the County Court, such as in the form of a signed receipt for payment… rather than from the defendants or their representatives. This is a crucial fact as to sourcing this material. Who told him of the existence of this case and the materials so quickly – when only the lawyers, the judge and the plaintiffs and defendants knew about it? Nothing was printed about it or found with any obvious search terms using Google. Was he not informed of it and how to come by the court documents by the Sathya Sai Society or their proxies? It is fair to comment here too, that – as the Sathya Sai Society is well aware - Moreno has from the start gone to great lengths to attack and undermine Alaya Rahm’s allegations of being sexually abused by Sai Baba, also defending Dr. Goldstein and the Society. Yet Alaya Rahm’s allegations stand as ever, and the BBC has promulgated them worldwide without Sai Baba’s supporters being able to raise a case against them, though they tried legal threats to broadcasters in the US and Canada.
I am a member of the International JuST Group, and was not acting “under the guise of JuST” – there was a JuST working committee of 9 persons, conferring with the Rahm family and their lawyer, Brelsford. The date of the court case given was not provided by me. I can’t be bothered to check it even as it is of so little significance, except to Moreno and Co., of course. Moreno is trying to minimise the major import of the statement which shows that the Kreydick evidence was totally irrelevant in the decision to dismiss the case. Moreno and the Sai authorities are trying to make out that this was so – it is a clever ploy, no doubt. But is not truthful and certainly not proper material for an encyclopedia, in my view. What does jossi say to that?
As to the exact date of the first approach by our team to the County Court, it was about two months ago, despite Moreno’s false conclusion from the fact it was not mentioned here earlier. This is no big deal. --] 11:17, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

== Tone of this conversation... ==

...Is way off:
# Misplaced Pages is not a battleground of ideas or opinions. See ];
# we deal with each other with civility and respect. See ];
# and we do not engage in personal attacks. See ]

If you are unable to abide by these policies, you would be better off not participating. ] <small>] &bull; ]</small> 03:16, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


I basically agree with jossi’s comment here. However, since I have been attacked so heavily here and on other Wiki talk pages, - with repeated links to utterly slanderous pages made against me by Gerald ‘Joe’ Moreno (SSS108)- and since Misplaced Pages is so far chronically unable to remove such texts or block these attacks once and for all, I feel I do at least have a moral right to refute arguments directed against me, and not least also in defense of one who have suffered terribly at the hands of Sai Baba (Alaya Rahm) and will be further injured by a subjective account by a Sai follower, if it is not truly an independent public document. Is it not fair - under these circumstances - to point this out? --] 11:15, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

==]==
This case is now closed and the result has been published at the link above.

*Negative information in an article or on a talk page regarding Sathya Sai Baba or organizations affiliated with him which is poorly sourced may be removed without discussion. The three revert rule shall not apply to such removal. This includes links to critical websites which contain original research or which consist of personal accounts of negative experiences with Sathya Sai Baba or organizations affiliated with him. It is inappropriate for a user to insert a link to a website maintained by the user (or in which the user plays an important role).
*Information in an article or on a talk page regarding Sathya Sai Baba or organizations affiliated with him which is poorly sourced may be removed. This includes links to websites which contain original research or which consist of personal accounts of experiences with Sathya Sai Baba or organizations affiliated with him. It is inappropriate for a user to insert a link to a website maintained by the user (or in which the user plays an important role)
*Andries and SSB108 are forgiven any offenses they have committed by introducing unreliable information into the article and encouraged to edit in compliance with ] and ].

For the Arbitration Committee. 03:51, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

== How to proceed? ==

Is there anybody, who is just a Misplaced Pages editor, watching this page and interested in turning this article in an encyclopedic article, like something that a real encyclopedia would write? Then I would ask all apologetics and apostats to step aside and perform major surgery. But I'm not masochistic enough to proceed alone. --] 07:08, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


I understand why you would not like to be in the firing line for the kind of slander I am subjected to, but rest assured you would receive no personal attacks from me if you were to try. But correction of provably wrong facts, yes. However, the question is how anyone can write an objective article on Sathya Sai Baba who has not studied his words fully and deeply, or had direct experience of his life and activities, which are a subject of the greatest controversy? My view is that the article is not too bad considering the situation (if it does not include the highly subjective and speculative Kreydick deposition materials) ... both sides of the controversy are represented and at least one is not fed a seemingly 'neutral' package of what would surely be largely superficial materials. --] 11:25, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


Wikipiedia is not a place for advocating either pro or con viewpoints, to convert neophytes, to discourage followers, or to "alert the public". For that you have the pro sites and anti websites. To describe your "direct experience", publish a blog or a website. Misplaced Pages is not a place for ]. Involved editors, unless they come to terms with this reality, will continue to suffer aggravation and stress that leads to poisoning of these discussions and to unavoidable personal attacks. The next steps should be to cleanup the article by applying the resolution of the arbitration committee as described above, and applying our content policies. ] <small>] &bull; ]</small> 14:03, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

:: ''However, the question is how anyone can write an objective article on Sathya Sai Baba who has not studied his words fully and deeply, or had direct experience of his life and activities, which are a subject of the greatest controversy?''
:: Ahem, I assume you were too busy editing this article to learn something about what's Misplaced Pages is about, for example in the ]: ''Misplaced Pages is an ]...''.
:: And an encyclopedia not only doesn't do original research, it abhors all creativity, direct experience, and then some. Good, and ''concise'' style would be welcome, and that's most lacking here.
:: In a nutshell, an encyclopedia article has to reproduce something that is ''already written elsewhere'', and this doesn't mean a newspaper clipping here, a blog posting there and some court proceedings to top it.
:: Were it not for problems of copyright infringement (and for balancing, if even the scholars disagree), you should be able to pinpoint ''one'' book or ''one'' article in a scientific journal, of which the entire Misplaced Pages article is summary.
:: Every attempt to create something better, than any existing book or article, however well-meaning it may be, is totally misguided. If you aiming for this, you have to publish elsewhere, e.g. in ] or on your own homepage.
:: In short: Don't connect the dots!
:: <small>Reality check: Yes, I know, there is plenty of stuff on en.wikipedia which is in violation of those principles of encyclopedic writing, but I will not tolerate this as an excuse. Even I cannot fight in 1,5 millions articles simultanously.</small>
:: ] 15:04, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
:If there are experienced editors who want to work on the article, then I would step aside. However, I must say that Pjacobi's comments about me have not helped in obtaining my full confidence in him. Not only he is sympathetic with Andries, he also '''wrongly''' accused me (apparently '''not''' researching the matter whatsoever) of introducing a ''"giant citation into the article"'' and breaking the references when I simply reverted the article. This revert did '''not''' break the references as he falsely accused me of: . Even after pointing this out, Pjacobi refused to retract his comment.

:Far be it for ProEdits to accuse others of ''"slander"'' when he has done the very same with Sathya Sai Baba, devotees and proponents (including myself). Unlike him, I can fully substantiate my claims with his actual words, links, references, caches and screen-captures. I don't engage in conspiracy theories, unverifiable speculations and presumptions of guilt as he has done. I do not wish to prolong this off-topic discussion and I will end it here if ProEdits agrees. ] <sup>]-]</sup> 15:12, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 08:35, 26 December 2024

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To-do list for Sathya Sai Baba: edit · history · watch · refresh · Updated 2011-04-25

  1. Include a "Bibliography" section, with informations about his writings (the several "Vahini" books that Sathya Sai Baba has written)
  2. Add some more info from Erlendur Haraldsson's book, e.g. M. Krishna (partially done)
  3. Improve the article based on Jossi proposals recommended by the arbitration commitee.
  4. Remove unreliable and poorly sourced material from the article
  5. Add some more info from the book "Love is my form" (the book cost USD 99.00 and it may be difficult to order)
  6. Write about the Prashanti Council in the section organizations
  7. Ensure only professional critics are sourced, rather than unfounded authors who otherwise specialize in other areas.
  8. Add more interesting pictures, such as that of his books, centers etc.
  9. Add a photo of Sathya Sai Baba (done)


Why there is no mention of his family?

Does he have a wife, kids? Why there is no mention of his family? 176.33.65.11 (talk) 13:46, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Misinformation

The recently added section "Anomalies and possible unnatural death" contains misinformation, based on short-lived rumors and conspiracy theories. Please remove the section. Anuradha Rao (talk) 14:24, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

ALL information is properly sourced and cited. the times of India, Indian express and other sources are reliable and credible.
the title accurately depicts the content. anomalies in the narrative provided by the police, ashram, trust and other agencies in relation to what information was printed or reported on.
much like the murders at ashram. facts, narratives and official stories don't add up. yet the various pieces of information are reported and documented. why don't you take down that page?
just because its been 13 years and things have been brushed aside and washed cleaned doesn't mean these events weren't reported on.
they appeared in the times of India.
this section does not reflect conspiracy theories but reported on events.
there is a "criticism " section is there not? why are those "events" or conspiracy theories not removed? some scenarios are plain redundant, willful character assassination and unproven lies. yet the section exists.
why? because it was written about and played a role in the information surrounding Sai Baba. although irrelevant or dated or based on opinion, it was written about.
as were the anomalies and pieces of information contrary to the "official narrative".
the section, as the "criticism" section, provides cited information that appeared in reputable news outlets and has a place, is relevant and although, difficult to swallow without getting emotional, it was written about.
your passions and emotions dont take precedent.
section is well cited, properly cited and from credible sources.
it holds the same place as the criticism section. J929 (talk) 05:54, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
All misinformation and conspiracy theories on the page need to go, and not just the Anamolies.. section. Why are we hounding someone who spent every moment for the upliftment of humanity? It is not about editors'/readers' passions and emotions, but about truth and facts which a Misplaced Pages article should stick to, isn't it? Anuradha Rao (talk) 06:22, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
Sai Baba’s virtues, divinity comment and unfettered devotion to serving humanity is not in question.
The section is well sourced, properly cited, and correctly quoted J929 (talk) 07:06, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
The times of India and various other sources are, according to Misplaced Pages, reliable and credible. Criticism section, like I said, has events that are unproven and most likely untrue BUT still are reported on.
Therefore, when correctly cited and worded, appear in Misplaced Pages.
Same with this section.
if you feel all these sections should be removed then the “issue” is with you and your view, not the way it is presented - which as I have stated and also agreed by the person who Undid your edits - which is in accordance with Misplaced Pages guidelines. J929 (talk) 07:14, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
please review previous talk page issues. most importantly the criticism section and see how much effort and time, consensus and argument went into getting a phrasing that would satisfy everyone.
try to edit the criticism section and you will find warnings not to edit certain parts because of these efforts...
that being said, emotional responses and opinions of what[REDACTED] is or is not does not justify removing a section - one that is well cited, sourced and worded. J929 (talk) 08:23, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
Yes, the page reads much better now than it did earlier, thanks to the efforts.
Some of the cited sources in Anomalies part have attributed quotes to unnamed/unverifiable sources and have a speculative tone than factual reporting. Unilateral claims, reactions, rumors and speculation can be condensed into a few lines than given so much prominence. Anuradha Rao (talk) 02:01, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
All the information is correctly cited from credible sources. If condensed and left unsourced, it will then look like a story/speculation etc.
which will not hold up to Misplaced Pages standards and decrease the quality of the page. J929 (talk) 13:08, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
You can condense the part and still cite the sources.
The problem is not with the citations but giving disproportionate space to ephemeral speculative reports arising in the wake of the confusion following the demise of the Guru. Anuradha Rao (talk) 10:58, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Gunnar Otis, not a real person

I've removed a paragraph from the article, citing "Gunnar Otis, professor of psychology, University of Reykjavik" as an authority, from a book by Paul William Roberts. The encounter between Roberts and "Gunnar Otis" is said to have taken place in 1976, but the University of Reykjavik was founded in 1998. No professor of psychology with that name has ever existed in Iceland. 147.161.214.97 (talk) 03:00, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

From what I’ve been able to find (ie. nothing), no person with that name has ever existed on Earth. 🆃🆁🆂™ 08:28, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
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