| Revision as of 08:43, 10 November 2004 editHalibutt (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers34,067 edits →Next war← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 13:30, 6 January 2025 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,299,784 editsm Archiving 5 discussion(s) to Talk:Polish–Soviet War/Archive 7, Talk:Polish–Soviet War/Archive 8) (botTag: Replaced |
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==Name== |
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{{Article history |
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|action1date=12:21, 8 Mar 2005 |
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|action1link=Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Polish-Soviet War/archive1 |
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Shouldn't this article be at ] instead? The war ended some two years prior to creation of the ] and the term, although quite frequently used (even in Polish sources), is simply misleading. I'm thinking of moving it. Any objections?] 20:28, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC) |
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|action2date=01:36, 4 Apr 2005 |
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|action2link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Polish-Soviet War/archive1 |
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:IMO needs change to ''something'' else; Russo-Polish also seems appropriate. How about Google-testing the two names. (IMO Bolshevik needs capital B, if you go that route.) --]] 06:00, 2004 Apr 30 (UTC) |
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|action3date=03:39, 17 November 2005 |
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|action3link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Polish-Soviet War |
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::Russo is not apriopriate, since it was not war against Russia, i believe ;) ] 06:28, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC) |
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|action4date=09:22, 17 November 2006 |
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|action4link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Polish-Soviet War |
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Are you saying that |
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|action5date=15:57, 28 February 2012 |
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* Russia was not involved, or |
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|action5link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Polish–Soviet War/archive1 |
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* Russia was involved, but it was not "against" Russia, e.g. because Poland did not intiate it and just defended itself? |
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IMO, the term just implies a war involving two countries, like the ], where no one seriously believes Spain was the aggressor.--]] 06:51, 2004 Apr 30 (UTC) |
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::Well, i think it was not against Russia and not with Russia - it was against Bolshevik state, which generally i think avoided to be called "Russia", isn't it?! ] 09:58, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC) |
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|action6date=18:41, 16 September 2016 |
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|action6link=Talk:Polish–Soviet War/GA1 |
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:::Well, AAMoF the war is usually called the ], which is the proper name from the Polish side. Sometimes other names are used, but these seem a little tricky or simply wrong. ] seems quite popular too, but the question is whether Russia Poland was waging the war with was '''the''' legitimate Russia (there were at least three or four different Russias at the time - Reds, Whites, other Whites, Anarchists...) and if this name was chosen, it'd suggest that Poland fought against Lenin, Makhno, Ungern von Sternberg, Denikin and all the other Russias involved. |
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|otd1date=2005-03-18|otd1oldid=16334944 |
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|otd2date=2010-02-14|otd2oldid=344066963 |
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|otd3date=2011-02-14|otd3oldid=413858815 |
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|otd4date=2013-02-14|otd4oldid=538262074 |
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|otd5date=2016-02-14|otd5oldid=704968900 |
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}} |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|vital=yes|collapsed=yes|1= |
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{{WikiProject Poland|importance=high}} |
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{{WikiProject Military history|class=C|Polish-task-force=yes|b1=no|b2=yes|b3=yes|b4=yes|b5=yes}} |
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{{WikiProject Soviet Union|importance=high}} |
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{{WikiProject Russia|importance=High|hist=yes|mil=yes}} |
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{{WikiProject Ukraine|importance=High}} |
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{{WikiProject Belarus|importance=mid}} |
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{{WikiProject Latvia|importance=low}} |
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{{WikiProject European history|importance=Mid}} |
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{{WikiProject Socialism|importance=high}} |
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}} |
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== “Disputed” is not accurate, and “Polish victory” was the result of the war == |
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:::The most widespread name (Polish-Soviet War) is simply wrong since there was no Soviet Union at the time. It's like calling the Ceasars campaign in Gaul a ]. Finally, as to the official name of the parties involved in the war: Poland is sure in this context. The problem is with the Reds since the name of the country is not really certain until later in the twenties. The most common name is ]. That's why I like the ] the most. ] 11:15, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC) |
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Yes, some historians say that it wasn’t entirely a Polish victory. Yes, Poland didn’t achieve all it wanted and did receive some losses. However, the war was generally a Polish victory; Poland preserved its independence and acquired a significant portion of territory. ] (who isn’t really a humble person to say the least) agreed that the war was a Soviet defeat. |
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:I added a separate section explaining the names used. Hope that clears the matter a bit. ]]]] 01:44, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC) |
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And in case you think I’m making this stuff up, ] (]) 00:47, 5 October 2024 (UTC) |
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==Other issues== |
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The following text in ] |
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: It was also important time for ]. Many can argue that the final defeat of the Soviet army was caused by Stalin's intrigue. Moreover, in the final stage of the war, he was forced to retreat in panic. Three groups of people, that he met at his way then: Ukrainian peasants, Polish communists, and Polish officers were later subject of persecutions. Ukrainian peasants in millions were starving to death during famine organised by Stalin ]-]. Polish communists were decimated, and Polish minority deported to Kazakhstan during Stalin's purges ]-]. Polish officers were murdered en masse in the ] in 1940. |
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* belongs in some other article, and |
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* is too ill-defined to say what the article would be. |
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Not ready for prime time. |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 October 2024 == |
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{{edit extended-protected|Polish–Soviet War|answered=yes}} |
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When a "see also" is in the middle of text, as with |
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I would like to expand the article. ] (]) 15:42, 10 October 2024 (UTC) |
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: (''See also'': ]) |
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:] '''Not done''': it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a ] and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:EEp --> ] | ] 19:30, 10 October 2024 (UTC) |
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it is probably always a bad link. (If you can't mention what you're linking to in a declarative sentence, you can't justify linking them.) In this case, it must be insinuating genocidal intent; find a way to say who says so and their justifications for it. Also, in this case, ] makes no mention of these events, and is irrelevant beyond the dictionary definition of "genocide". More connection is needed before linking. |
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Similarly with |
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: ''See also'': ] |
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Tell us why this is a better link than ]. |
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<br>--]] 07:30, 2004 Apr 30 (UTC) |
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:That's one is easy. Soviet historiography considered Polish_Soviet war to be part of Western interventions in Civil war in Russia. Second, it was directly tied to Russian Civil War: when Denikin was on offensive, Pilsudski halted advances so not to help him. ] 09:58, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC) |
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==Next war== |
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What was the next war? I am interested, but I have no idea how to find out easily. ] 22:22, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC) |
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:I believe there were no other wars in Europe until the Spanish Civil War. However, there must've been some other, non-European wars. Gran Chaco? ]]]] 21:52, Sep 6, 2004 (UTC) |
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: About the same time ] and ] (1919-1921) took place. The one afterwards would be ] (1922-1923). I wonder if we should note it somehow in the article? See also ]. --] 09:58, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC) |
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::Well, there was little or no connection between those conflicts... ]]]] 08:43, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC) |
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== Featured-class article == |
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Following our success in preparing the ] series, I thought it might be nice to upgrade this article to featured article standard. We're not in a hurry since the best anniversary would be ] (]), but a step-by-step improvement would be nice. As the first step I decided to prepare a list of battles of the War of 1920 that should be described. Feal free to add some battles I forgot to mention. The bolded battles are a must, all the rest deserve mention IMHO, but were not as crucial. ]]]] 18:08, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC) |
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# ] Soviet offensive (Jan.-Feb. 1919) |
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# ] (], ] - the first battle of the conflict |
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# ] - Polish offensive towards ] (April) |
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# ] - Polish offensive towards ] (July-August) |
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# ] - joint Polish-Latvian operation (], ]) |
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# ''']''' - I have a decent book at home, could prepare the article myself |
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# ] (May-June) |
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# ''']''' - almost done (]) |
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# ], ], ] |
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# ] - "Polish Termophylae" (]) |
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# '''] River''' - not even started, I have a decent monography at home so I could prepare the article (September 26-28) |
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# ] |
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# ] (]) |
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# ''']''' |
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: No objection here, but didn't we agree to work on ] first? Personally I find both very interesting and relatively unknown to the mass public. I did a major update of this article recently, but don't have any more materials ready. Of course I will try to help when I find some new tidbit of info. --] 22:38, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC) |
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Yes, some historians say that it wasn’t entirely a Polish victory. Yes, Poland didn’t achieve all it wanted and did receive some losses. However, the war was generally a Polish victory; Poland preserved its independence and acquired a significant portion of territory. Even Lenin (who isn’t really a humble person to say the least) agreed that the war was a Soviet defeat.
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Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Bowler the Carmine | talk 19:30, 10 October 2024 (UTC)