| Revision as of 13:29, 16 December 2016 editDimadick (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers805,714 edits →Cleopatra entry should be removed or heavily expanded to add necessary nuance← Previous edit |
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{{Old AfD multi|page=List of films featuring whitewashed roles|date=22 February 2016|result='''keep'''}} |
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== References to use == |
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== References to use == |
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<!-- ] 21:04, 20 August 2026 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1787259855}} |
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* at ''The Atlantic'' |
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* at ''The Atlantic'' |
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* at ''The Guardian'' |
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* at ''The Guardian'' |
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* at ''The Guardian'' |
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References to use. ] (] | ]) <sup>(])</sup> 13:10, 14 October 2016 (UTC) |
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* at ''Paste'' |
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* |
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== "The BBC said..." == |
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* |
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References to use. ] (] | ]) <sup>(])</sup> 21:25, 17 January 2019 (UTC) |
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This quotation, and the paraphrase succeeding it, come from ], who was interviewed by the BBC. While I am sure many at the BBC agree with Aoki (I do), a concern arises with the use of the problematic term "Asian". In America, "Asian" as a racial term typically refers to someone of east or southeast Asian descent (the article describes Aoki himself, who is clearly of ], as being part Hawaiian and part Asian), but in the UK "Asian" more typically refers to people from the Indian subcontinent. Aoki, an Asian-American himself, clearly uses the term in the former sense, but attributing his view to the BBC changes the meaning slightly, since our readers can only assume that the British national broadcaster would be using the standard British definition of the word. (I come from Ireland, where there were almost no people from outside Ireland until the 1990s, and so the majority of people I grew up with used the American terminology they heard in American media, but I don't know if the same is true of Americanized people in the UK, and even if people in the UK do use the American definition of "Asian", it seems unlikely that the BBC would follow this trend either way.) ] (<small>]]</small>) 11:56, 7 March 2016 (UTC) |
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I think you are misusing a geographic term. ] includes ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], the ], ], ], and ]. It has nothing to do with ], which is categorized in ]. ] (]) 16:46, 8 March 2016 (UTC) |
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Asian as used to describe race is not an 'american term' go to the parts of asian where the people are asian and they will call their race asian. indians, pakistanis, iranians ect may call themselves asian geographically but they do not describe their race as being asian <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 10:48, 1 August 2016 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== ] / ] == |
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Should the sources be reviewed for this entry? The Misplaced Pages article for Chile says that the population of the country is 52.7% white, with 59% or more identifying as white. Listing the film ''The House of Spirits'' here seems to contradict the Misplaced Pages article for Chile. |
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As including a film on this list amounts to, in a manner of speaking, an accusation against the film, should we err on the side of caution when determining whether to include a film? It seems to me that if there is reasonable doubt as to whether a film is truly an example of "whitewashing," it should not be included. Otherwise we should develop caveats for some cases (with appropriate sources, of course). |
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The line dividing "white" from "non-white" is inevitably somewhat arbitrary, and the standard applied in this article should be explained more thoroughly. The question of "whiteness" is quite ambiguous in Latin America and the Middle East and the article does not do much to acknowledge that. Instead, egregious and widely-recognized examples of whitewashing (such as ''Charlie Chan'', ''Breakfast at Tiffany's'', and ''The Conqueror'') are grouped together with films depicting characters who may have identified as white in real life (''House of Spirits'', ''Not Without my Daughter'', ''Argo'', ''A Beautiful Mind'', ''Scarface'', ''Prince of Persia'', etc). |
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By the standard the article appears to apply, we could include the film ''Steve Jobs'', in which an Irish-German actor plays a Syrian character (Jobs), or ''When Boris Met Dave'', in which an Anglo-English actor portrays a person of Turkish descent (Boris Johnson). Neither of these films, to the best of my knowledge, have ever been described as examples of whitewashing, nor would other depictions of the two figures. |
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We should find a way to clarify the standard applied to examples in this article, with some sources, and make sure it's available to readers on the main (non-talk) page. <small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 10:41, 20 April 2016 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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Is Manuel Pellegrini a person of color? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 11:29, 15 August 2016 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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Yep. These are fictional people of the upper class in Chile, there is no reason to believe they shouldn't be white, given as two thirds of Chileans are. This also paints the actors as bigots like the minstrel shows of old. It is only silly Americans who think that all people who speak Spanish are non-white, the same idiots who post things on Tumblr saying that it is "cultural appropriation" when a white person (the majority of Spain, Chile, Argentina and Uruguay) speak their own language! <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 17:14, 24 September 2016 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== Edge of Tomorrow == |
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The list includes ''Edge of Tomorrow'' saying "white actor Tom Cruise plays William Cage, a whitewashed version of the novel's Japanese protagonist Keiji Kiriya". The novel was set mostly on an island off Japan, with Japanese and some American soldiers. The movie is set in the UK and Europe, with American and British soldiers. Very little of the original story is retained in the film. Cage is a different character entirely. You must include in your list then ] as all the characters have been Americanised when it was adapted from ]. ] (]) 17:16, 6 July 2016 (UTC) |
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:The list only reflects what has been stated in reliable sources, not the personal opinions of editors. So if you have a reliable source stating that ] has been whitewashed then we will include it. If not, then it will remain off.--] (]) 17:20, 6 July 2016 (UTC) |
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:: I'm sorry if you thought I was advocating that. I was trying to point out the logical consequence of stating that characters in ''Edge of Tomorrow'' were whitewashed, not suggesting more films be included on the same grounds. I realise of course that logic has no place in any discussion in Misplaced Pages, any opinion published anywhere is a ] and that's the end of it. ] (]) 17:52, 6 July 2016 (UTC) |
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::: Here's a great quote in the article, from a "reliable source": "race-blind casting, as long as it works both ways. But in reality, it never has; one rarely sees, for example, an African American, Latino, or Asian actor cast as a white character." Simply ignoring examples like Samuel L Jackson as ]; Will Smith as James West in '']'', on the recent DC TV series: Jimmy Olsen and Hank Henshaw in ''Supergirl'', Iris West in ''The Flash''; Deadshot in ''Suicide Squad''; to score his point. But it's a reliable source, so none of those counter examples can exist. Misplaced Pages endorses ] over verifiable facts. ] (]) 03:49, 7 July 2016 (UTC) |
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::::Several of the most "recent" examples may actually have been released following the publication of this source. The particular source quoted is a book from 2010. Even reliable sources can get dated and certain things do change. Do you think there has been sufficient changes over the last 6 years? ] (]) 07:44, 7 July 2016 (UTC) |
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:::::Thanks for taking this seriously. I wouldn't claim that whitewashing doesn't exist, but the opposite, whatever you want to call it certainly takes place, and the statement I quoted above "one rarely sees..." is hard to take seriously. I found a long list of counterexamples here: , with 75 or so film roles and about 100 TV show roles. Actually, quite a few predate the quote. I don't claim TVTropes is a reliable source, but the facts are easily verified. I guess the problem is to find a citeable source that says this. ] (]) 16:00, 7 July 2016 (UTC) |
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== The Hunger Games: fanon is truth == |
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In the description of ''The Hunger Games'' there is the justification "Readers perceived Katniss and her people to be nonwhite;". I deleted this because an unnamed person "perceiving" something is ], a way to introduce an assertion without any justifaction (see e.g. statements by Donald Trump, for similar -- "I hear that", "people are saying", "I saw it on facebook"). And that was reverted because there is a source, and somehow printing weasel words makes them citeable. Since the source is a book I have no idea what it actually said, there is no quote of the source text. So because an unnamed reader of ''The Hunger Games'' imagined that a character was nonwhite, despite it never being in the text of the book, the producers of the film are deemed to have whitewashed the role because they didn't follow this "perception" of some fans. How absurd is this? So ] is now encyclopedic? ] (]) 03:54, 9 July 2016 (UTC) |
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Reader perceptions are an encyclopedic matter, particularly when noted by sources. And in this case, we probably already know why the readers thought so. Per the article on the character ], she and her people are described in the novel as having "straight black hair, olive skin, and grey eyes". |
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] is "light or moderate brown, brownish, or tannish". Which is not actually mutually exclusive with being "white", as it is quite common in areas surrounding the ] (in other words ], ], and ]). It is also common in the entire ], the ], ], and various parts of Asia and Africa. ] (]) 18:27, 10 July 2016 (UTC) |
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==The Great Wall== |
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how is this whitewashing? it's a chinese movie not a hollywood movie if anything its diversity seeing as china is practically 100% asian, is every black actor in a medieval movies now blackwashing? its also a fantasy movie where they fight monsters not a historical documentary on the wall's construction <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 01:59, 1 August 2016 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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China does have native "white" people after all. What's to say that the white actor isn't playing a Tajik or an Ugyhur?] (]) 17:00, 28 September 2016 (UTC) |
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It isn't Whitewashing, the character is a Western trader who gets caught up in the events of the film, not a native Chinese. The criticism surrounding it has been for the ] narrative, so it should be added to that list if it's not already. |
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:Multiple sources cited in the article call the criticism "whitewashing". Neither mention "white savior", stating otherwise is ]. Remember ].--] (]) 19:08, 14 November 2016 (UTC) |
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::Multiple sources use term in ways that run counter to Misplaced Pages's definition of Whitewashing. None of the people quoted in the sources use the term, article authors are simply aggregating information, and not the sources themselves. The controversy surrounding it simply does not meet the definition of Whitewashing as laid out on this very page, and the fact that some blogger at IndieWire doesn't know the different terms and reaches for the closest available thing she can think of is not a valid reason to perpetuate confusion. I don't believe any of the authors (though I'd have to go back to check) even use the term whitewashing in specific reference to The Great Wall, but simply talking about the general controversy of whitewashing that's going on of late. If it's only being used contextually and not specifically, even if you count the article authors as "sources" (which in this case is a specious argument to begin with) it doesn't fit the bill. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 20:42, 14 November 2016 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:::Thats not the way ] works. The author's opinion counts just as much anyone he/she maybe quoting. The only opinion that doesn't count is our ]. We take sources at face value as to keep a ], free of our own interpretation, biases, or beliefs of what may or may not be true. In fact here's another source from '''' that states, "Now, the forthcoming blockbuster The Great Wall finds itself embroiled in the same type of whitewashing controversy, for casting Matt Damon in a film depicting an epic battle on the titular Chinese structure." The fact is the film is being criticized for whitewashing. Whether or not the criticism is valid is not the argument that is being made here. Also I kindly ask you to return the article to the ] (before your initial removal) while discussion is ongoing. I already referred you to the ] cycle in my edit summary. Re-reverting can be considered ]. Thank you.--] (]) 21:17, 14 November 2016 (UTC) |
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*It doesn't seem to meet the criteria set forth in the lede of this wiki article, since the character is not non-white. It seems to have more in common with a film like '']''. Moreover, the film is a fantasy, and is also unreleased (we don't even know the details of the plot). For all of those several reasons I advise at least waiting until the film is released, viewed by critics, and properly reviewed. ] (]) 21:04, 15 November 2016 (UTC) |
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*I believe this article was written based on whether a film was perceived by sources/expert opinions to be whitewashing, even if that claim can be countered by reliable facts. The key example of this is Taylor's Cleopatra (when this came up before), where it has been pointed out by natural histories that it would have been entirely possible for Egyptians of that time period to have European-like features. So while it may be obvious that there is actuall yno actual whitewashing here, the fact that the film is considered to have some by some experts should be sufficient to include that, alongside the factual evidence that they may be wrong. --] (]) 21:12, 15 November 2016 (UTC) |
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== RE: Star Trek into Darkness == |
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Would it be possible to add a notation to the Khan item explaining that the comics illustrate that he was subjected to surgical and cosmetic alteration (in addition to a mind wipe) to hide his true identity, thus allowing Admiral Marcus to exploit his mental ability? I feel this would at least mitigate the intent of the 'white-washing' claim. |
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I would add this notation myself but I am not comfortable doing so. |
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Reference - http://memory-beta.wikia.com/Khan_Noonien_Singh_%28alternate_reality%29 <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 23:37, 20 September 2016 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== Cleopatra == |
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Cleopatra was from the Ptolemaic Dynasty, a heavily inbred Greek (EUROPEAN) family. Any third-rate book will tell you that. Real Egyptians laugh at the claims of African Americans that somehow Cleopatra would have looked like Whoopi Goldberg, often backed up with such arguments as "Egypt is in Africa". |
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The sources for including this film are not academic, they are four American tabloids making clickbait lists. |
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First: Huffington Post using evidence cited from the Daily Mail, a notorious British tabloid http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1095043/Sorry-Liz-THIS-real-face-Cleopatra.html |
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Second: Complex calls Cleopatra a "woman of color", a phrase which didn't exist 100 years ago never mind 2,000 years ago. Probable echoing of Afrocentric meme http://uk.complex.com/pop-culture/2013/04/25-minority-characters-that-hollywood-whitewashed/cleopatra |
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Third: US News: "The British-American actress (she had dual citizenship) doesn't look even remotely Egyptian or North African. " Not an argument, Cleopatra was Greek. http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/06/12/white-actors-portraying-people-of-color-in-hollywood |
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Fourth: Madame Noire. An ethnocentric website claiming that both the Egyptians and Hebrews were black, both of which are discredited fringe theories. http://madamenoire.com/496138/cast-non-blacks-in-black-roles/ |
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If you actually had some reliable sources, preferably academic studies, this could pass muster. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 17:09, 24 September 2016 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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I've reported this to Fringe Theories and Reliable Sources list. It's ridiculous to call these reliable sources for your Afrocentrist fantasy <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 17:11, 24 September 2016 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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*I have to agree that ''Cleopatra'' is not appropriate for this list. It is very well established in academic sources that the historical Cleopatra was almost entirely of Greek ancestry. The casting of Liz Taylor in the movie was not a case of "whitewashing". ] (]) 18:16, 24 September 2016 (UTC) |
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::Please remember this only a list of films that have been subject of criticism due to whitewashing. That much is undeniable. Wether or not the film was actually whitewashed is debatable. Feel free to list any counter arguments from reliable sources.--] (]) 22:31, 24 September 2016 (UTC) |
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::{{reply|Blueboar}} please be careful to avoid ]. Sources about the ethnicity of the Ptolemies would only be usable if they mention the film; and if found then that means that their viewpoint ], not that the section should be eliminated. ] (]) 18:21, 25 September 2016 (UTC) |
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:: From my brief survey of this topic, the film ''is'' a good candidate for this list. ] (]) 14:19, 26 September 2016 (UTC) |
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* '''Remove list''' - Focus on prose which describes the article topic. - ] <sup>]</sup> 06:21, 28 September 2016 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment''': In any case, I have removed the claim that she had Egyptian ancestry - highly dubious and based only on unreliable sources. ]] (]) 10:29, 25 November 2016 (UTC) |
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== Chile == |
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The silly Americans are still believing that all people who speak Spanish are one big mixed race, even when I provide an academic source against it. Chile is a predominantly white country, especially the uppper class portrayed in that film. To say that Winona Ryder and Jeremy Irons are effectively doing the same thing as minstrel shows or Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's, is obscene. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 17:21, 24 September 2016 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:Your personal analysis ]. What do sources have to say about the film and race? ] (]) 18:17, 25 September 2016 (UTC) |
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:: he's basically saying those articles are stereotyping hispanics into one homogeneous category. 'White'- washing has a racial element to it. ], ], and ] are often overlooked in the U.S. mass media and in general American social perceptions, where being "Hispanic or Latino" is often incorrectly given a racial value, usually ], such as ] or ],<ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.pbs.org/newshour/essays/june97/rodriguez_6-18.html |title=A CULTURAL IDENTITY |author=]}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.rawstory.com/exclusives/tryferis/hispanic.htm |title=Separated by a common language: The case of the white Hispanic}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=http://campello.tripod.com/hispanic.html |title=Hispanics:A Culture, Not a Race |publisher=Campello.tripod.com |accessdate=December 2, 2011}}</ref> ] (]) 17:13, 9 October 2016 (UTC) |
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{{reflist talk}} |
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== How this article can be improved. == |
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I think that this article doesn't need too much improvement as it is pretty accurate on the topic of whitewashing. However, it mostly listed movies where whitewashing actors had occurred, rather than talking more about how whitewashing has affected Hollywood. I also think that maybe the page could have more detail on whitewashing in general. Aside from everything, it flows really well. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 22:40, 13 October 2016 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:It would probably also benefit from inclusion of some international perspectives. - ] <sup>]</sup> 22:51, 13 October 2016 (UTC) |
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== ''Cleopatra'' entry should be removed or heavily expanded to add necessary nuance == |
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{{ping|Erik}} Could you explain ? Your edit summary appeared to contain at least two ungrammatical sentences and I can't figure out what you meant. If there is a lot of literature about Cleopatra's race, doesn't oversimplifying it as "she was not white, so this is an example of whitewashing" questionable? ''Alexander'' isn't on this list because everyone knows Alexander and his generals were Macedonian, but the vast majority of Cleo's ancestors would have looked the same as them. The reason people ''think'' this is whitewashing is because they hold a misconception that she was an Egyptian queen and so she must have been of the same ethnicity as Tutankhamun or Ramses (whitewashing of whom in popular culture is a legitimate cause of concern). ] (<small>]]</small>) 13:27, 15 December 2016 (UTC) |
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:''Alexander'' is not on this list because there are no reliable sources discussing whitewashing in that film. There are some other films with clear instances of whitewashing, but they have not been worth noting in reliable sources to warrant inclusion in this list. For ''Cleopatra'', there are numerous sources about Cleopatra being portrayed as white. Why should we omit this entirely? There was criticism in the first place, and there can be counter-criticism stating that it is accurate that Cleopatra was white. ] (] | ]) <sup>(])</sup> 15:06, 15 December 2016 (UTC) |
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:Let me see what detailed listing I can put together today or tomorrow to capture as much as possible what reliable sources say. Sort of busy IRL plus dealing with some ] (another dispute that I'm trying to address through researching and editing). ] (] | ]) <sup>(])</sup> 15:18, 15 December 2016 (UTC) |
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::I know that is why ''Alexander'' is not on the list. My question is whether a source that seems to be getting the relevant facts wrong can be considered reliable for that purpose. ] (<small>]]</small>) 21:44, 15 December 2016 (UTC) |
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:::I have not really had time to edit on Misplaced Pages, but in poking around online a little, one contrast that is brought up is Elizabeth Taylor being white in contrast to her black slaves and dancers. There is a lot of information about her whiteness in this film if you look in Google Books. It really is not something to just leave out. If the criticism is rejected by others, than we can quote others in that. It does not mean the criticism never happened. ] (] | ]) <sup>(])</sup> 13:09, 16 December 2016 (UTC) |
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::::If there are published sources on the topic, there should probably be summarized on the article about the film. At the moment, the article '']'' has sourcing problems, the production section does not mention the casting decisions, and the "Reception and impact" section only has a hand full of random sources. Some of them are far from expert opinion, such as the website of ]. ] (]) 13:29, 16 December 2016 (UTC) |
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{{collapse top}} |
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"Alexander and his generals were Macedonian, but the vast majority of Cleo's ancestors would have looked the same as them." |
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Assuming what a historical figure looked like, without actually referring to any sources on the topic is a dangerous exercise. |
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:"References to use"? |
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Our article on the Ptolemaic dynasty could use expansion and better sources, but the description of their appearance is not that common.: "Contemporaries describe a number of the Ptolemaic dynasty as extremely obese, whilst sculptures and coins reveal prominent eyes and swollen necks. Familial Graves' disease could explain the swollen necks and eye prominence (exophthalmos), although this is unlikely to occur in the presence of morbid obesity. In view of the familial nature of these findings, members of this dynasty likely suffered from a multi-organ fibrotic condition such as Erdheim–Chester disease or a familial multifocal fibrosclerosis where thyroiditis, obesity and ocular proptosis may have all occurred concurrently." |
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:'user :Erik', are you the Misplaced Pages Thought Police? Do we need you to tell the rest of the community which sources to use on a subject that is inevitably contentious? |
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:Some might consider sources like 'The Guardian' and 'BBC' to be biased.] (]) 19:43, 8 May 2021 (UTC) |
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:All sources are biased because there is no such thing as an impartial human ] (]) 21:27, 11 May 2021 (UTC) |
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== The article needs a significant revision == |
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The following source discusses various information on the dynasty and the possible effects (or lack of effects) inbreeding had on its members: https://books.google.gr/books?id=dJdErRqoBeQC&pg=PA172&dq=Ptolemaic+dynasty+obese&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Ptolemaic%20dynasty%20obese&f=false |
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It's funny to see Sir Sean Connery on the list, given the famous memes comparing him to Ayatollah Khomeini. Jews have been hit the hardest — Jewish actors playing characters of other races (or even other Middle Easterners) are recognized as white, while non-Jewish actors playing Jews are already considered ''whitewashed''. The absolute absence of any clear systematics, and as colleagues have pointed out — a purely American view of the subject, where people do not distinguish such radically different concepts as "ethnicity" and "race". ] (]) 17:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC) |
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Here is the description of ] by ]. "To the Romans ... was as ludicrous a figure as he was a cruel one to his fellow-citizens. He had an ugly face, and was short in stature; and he had a distended belly more like an animal's than a man's. The repulsiveness of his appearance was heightened by his dress, which was exceedingly fine-spun to the point of transparency, just as if he had some motive for putting on display what a decent man should have made every effort to conceal." |
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:I agree that the list is problematic. My suggestion would be to drastically cut it down, and provide a few paragraphs of prose rather than a list. We should mention significant historical examples and ones that provide some illustration of the concept. We should collect the strongest sources ''about whitewashing'', not about one individual film, and select our examples from those strong sources. ] (] / ]) 17:30, 9 July 2024 (UTC) |
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Here is the description of the same Ptolemy by ]: "Through indulgence in luxury had become utterly corrupted with fat and with a belly of such size that it would have been hard to measure it with one's arms; to cover it he wore a tunic which reached to his feet and which had sleeves reaching to his wrists; but he never went abroad on foot except on Scipio's account... Ptolemy's son Alexander also grew fatter and fatter... The master of Egypt, a man who was hated by the masses, though flattered by his courtiers, lived in great luxury; but he could not even go out to urinate unless he had two men to lean upon as he walked. And yet when it came to the rounds of dancing at a drinking-party he would jump from a high couch barefoot as he was, and perform the figures in a livelier fashion than those who had practiced them." |
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::Things are especially bad with examples with Middle Eastern characters, given that most European and West Asian populations are de facto of the same race, just different anthropological types within it. For this reason, I've included a small clarifying footnote to make this point. ] (]) 19:03, 9 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::No. The public should be warned about these films so that they don't financially contribute to a practice they may find abhorrent. The reader can decide for themselves whether this or that film qualifies in their view. ] (]) 22:26, 6 December 2024 (UTC) |
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The modern writer analyzing the texts in the source above, believes that the dynasty's poor health and extraordinary appearance was not due to inbreeding. They were the results of a ], because of excesses in nurture and luxury. ] (]) 18:31, 15 December 2016 (UTC) |
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Yes, the list does have a good portion of nonsense, as well as clear cut iconic examples of what is meant; such as the Mickey Rooney/Tiffany role. I agree with above that the prominent, culturally iconic and undeniable examples be given, and cut away the endless chaff.] (]) 18:39, 9 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:Yeah, but you don't need inbreeding in a family to maintain a fairly consistent skin pigmentation over two centuries. All the women we ''know'' in Cleopatra's ancestry were of the same Macedonian/Greek stock, and there were plenty of other Greeks all over the Mediterranean, including in Egypt, anyway. The argument that she might have been "browner" than the majority of her well-known ancestors is an argument from silence about those few female ancestors we don't know anything about. Yes, it's ''possible'', but it's not the scholarly consensus, and any click-baity list of films where people of colour are played by white actors that ignores this information (or seems to not be aware of it) should be disregarded. Sources that ''don't'' ignored it should be accurately summarized, not simply used as an excuse to keep in text that looks like the click-baity stuff. ] (<small>]]</small>) 21:44, 15 December 2016 (UTC) |
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:{{re|Dimadick}} I just noticed that roughly half the text in this section is yours, and it has nothing to do with race, ethnicity or whitewashing. You were responding to your own misinterpretation of one line of my comment (I was talking about skin colour, not obesity or exophthalmos). Your comment could only possibly be relevant if you were making the point (which you never got around to actually making) that Taylor's casting was historically inaccurate anyway, regardless of the racial issue, because Cleopatra probably didn't look like Taylor (and I would agree with you), but that argument is not really related to this page. If you want to expand our article on the Ptolemies with coverage of what they actually looked like, fire ahead. ] (<small>]]</small>) 05:28, 16 December 2016 (UTC) |
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{{collapse bottom}} |
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:I totally agree. Against this background, it is very strange to see the example of Mean Girls, where an actress of Jewish origin plays a Lebanese character. Or with the ethnic Italian Al Pacino who played the Cuban Tony Montana (as if ''Caucasian'' Cubans don't exist). Or Bradley Cooper as Leonard Bernstein... It's like people lost the thread of the narrative during editing and strayed from the point. ] (]) 19:24, 9 July 2024 (UTC) |
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== Edit notice == |
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::Where is the best place to start?] (]) 11:46, 16 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::OK, I'll start the weeding out the nonsense from the good examples.] (]) 20:18, 5 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Please follow reliable sources. Don't weed out what you personally think is nonsense. ] (] | ]) <sup>(])</sup> 21:00, 5 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::This is where it goes into nebulous territory, such as the examples given above. Undeniable examples are the Tiffany one, then you have something like the Marvel characters who get mixed up multiple times in the their original medium and simply changed for he film medium. The two are not analogous.] (]) 21:12, 5 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::Focus on the reliable sources that call it whitewashing. We can remove unsourced listings. For sourced listings, the sources should be reviewed for quality. Like ''Mean Girls'' having PopSugar as a reference isn't a reliable source. If it can't be improved, it can then be removed. ] (] | ]) <sup>(])</sup> 02:47, 6 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::"Nebulous territory" is for the reader to decide for themselves. These instances should be pointed out here if they have elsewhere (reliable sources, of course). |
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::::::Ironically, the Breakfast at Tiffany's example is not really whitewashing, it's straight-up yellowface, so that one is arguably even more disputable. ] (]) 22:04, 6 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::No, "whitewashing" encompasses both yellowface (and similar masking) and white-instead-of-nonwhite portrayals. ''The Encyclopedia of Racism in American Film'' writes, ''"...''Breakfast at Tiffany's'' also embodies one of Hollywood's most infamous examples of 'yellowface' performance... besides the '''whitewashing''' of an Asian character, Mickey Rooney's performance... stereotypes Asian in general and Japanese people in particular."'' Per the sources, the essence is the same, a white actor instead of a nonwhite one. ] (] | ]) <sup>(])</sup> 22:51, 6 December 2024 (UTC) |
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{{od|:::::::}} , I removed all the unsourced listings, and the ] is on others to restore it with reliable sourcing. , I also removed listings that had sources that were not reliable, like YouTube and blogs and student newspapers. Please feel free to review my removals and challenge any of them. Despite a content dispute about ''Wuthering Heights'', I removed it since there is no actual film yet. ] (] | ]) <sup>(])</sup> 16:18, 7 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== Proposal: blackwashing in film == |
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There is a proposal at ] on whether or not an edit notice should be included in this article. All opinions are welcome.--] (]) 18:45, 15 December 2016 (UTC) |
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Why not also create the article "blackwashing in film"? It's clear that black actors have been cast in many historically white roles (see, for example, '']''); the same is true for live action and TV series (see, for example, '']'',{{efn|Black elves and black Hobbits never existed in J. R. R. Tolkien's masterpiece books.}} '']'' and many, many others).<br />Before some extremist user insults me, I just think this article should be created, nothing else. ] (]) 16:16, 21 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== In the historical drama comedy epic romance film == |
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:I think you're looking for ]. – ] (]) 16:26, 21 December 2024 (UTC) |
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Why are these genres listed for most of the entries in the table? They read awkwardly, and there doesn't seem to be any point other than baiting genre-warriors. ] (<small>]]</small>) 08:23, 16 December 2016 (UTC) |
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::{{Ping|Muboshgu}} yes. ] (]) 16:53, 21 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::I concur with Muboshgu. There was an AFD here: ]. There was also a RFD here: {{sectionlink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 November 29#Blackwashing}}. It is essentially a ], with this passage applying, ''"To support an article about a particular term or concept, we must cite what reliable ] say {{em|about}} the term or concept, not just sources that {{em|use}} the term {{crossref|(see ])}}."'' In contrast, there is abundant reliable sourcing for whitewashing and for color-blind casting, though I think the latter's article could be improved in prose with a source like . Not to mention that this neologism is limiting to one race, where actors of other races have also been in traditionally white roles. So the casting article works to encapsulate the whole concept. ] (] | ]) <sup>(])</sup> 17:03, 21 December 2024 (UTC) |
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Are the genres listed in the cited sources? ] (]) 10:52, 16 December 2016 (UTC) |
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:Does that matter? Whether ''we'' continue to list peripheral information like the films' genres should probably not be based on whether external sources that aren't encyclopedia articles do so. And given how so many of the entries have several sources piled on top of each other, I can't imagine they are all uniform in the genres they describe to the films. ] (<small>]]</small>) 12:57, 16 December 2016 (UTC) |
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=== Notes === |
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:It is just a contextual term for a listing. Really, such listings should state the premise briefly (with genre as part of it), so the role can be put in better context. ] (] | ]) <sup>(])</sup> 13:11, 16 December 2016 (UTC) |
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{{Notelist}} |
It's funny to see Sir Sean Connery on the list, given the famous memes comparing him to Ayatollah Khomeini. Jews have been hit the hardest — Jewish actors playing characters of other races (or even other Middle Easterners) are recognized as white, while non-Jewish actors playing Jews are already considered whitewashed. The absolute absence of any clear systematics, and as colleagues have pointed out — a purely American view of the subject, where people do not distinguish such radically different concepts as "ethnicity" and "race". Iktsokh (talk) 17:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
Yes, the list does have a good portion of nonsense, as well as clear cut iconic examples of what is meant; such as the Mickey Rooney/Tiffany role. I agree with above that the prominent, culturally iconic and undeniable examples be given, and cut away the endless chaff.Halbared (talk) 18:39, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
Why not also create the article "blackwashing in film"? It's clear that black actors have been cast in many historically white roles (see, for example, Bridgerton); the same is true for live action and TV series (see, for example, The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power, Peter Pan & Wendy and many, many others).
Before some extremist user insults me, I just think this article should be created, nothing else. JacktheBrown (talk) 16:16, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
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