| Revision as of 05:11, 14 March 2017 editLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,303,091 editsm Archiving 1 discussion(s) to Talk:Shooting of Michael Brown/Archive 31) (bot← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 19:46, 4 January 2025 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,303,091 editsm Archiving 1 discussion(s) to Talk:Killing of Michael Brown/Archive 31) (bot |
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==Length of intro== |
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Even before I added a bunch of paragraph breaks, the intro was too long. Is there a way to make it even shorter - without losing (or "hiding") any essential aspect? I'm thinking of putting the the short account of the incident itself, along with the protests, into a sort of "Summary" or "Outline" section - possibly even before the sections marked ''Backgrounds'' and ''Incident''. |
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Moreover, the "Incident" section could use a better name. I'll try to think of one: something like "chronology" or "timeline" or "sequence of events that night"? --] (]) 15:56, 5 March 2017 (UTC) |
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:I don't feel that it's too long for such a big subject, which goes well beyond the shooting event itself, and is larger than many other police killing events that have Misplaced Pages articles. And I'd be reluctant to make major changes to the product of a number of experienced editors working together for months. Minor and very careful pruning of the lead, perhaps, but I think a reader should be able to read the lead and come away with a thorough general understanding of the event, its context, and its aftermath and impact. Length is fairly low on my priority list in this case. ―] ] 05:33, 6 March 2017 (UTC) |
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:I'm not in love with "Incident", but it's better than the 3 you list above and I can't think of an improvement. Therefore unless you can suggest something else I feel it's "good enough". ―] ] 05:38, 6 March 2017 (UTC) |
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== Robbery Suspect? == |
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The beginning of this article claims that Wilson stopped Brown and Johnson due to them being robbery suspects. This is completely and totally wrong. The Ferguson police chief testified under oath that Wilson had no idea the two had allegedly been involved in a robbery. That section is completely and totally unsupported by the facts. You can read the testimony yourself (where the chief is asked two or three times about it and directly denies that Wilson knew of the robbery), but here's a CNN story that distills that information. Please change it right away because it completely misrepresents the facts of what happened that day. |
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{{Old moves|date=10 May 2023|from=Shooting of Michael Brown|destination=Killing of Michael Brown|result=moved|link=Special:Permalink/1154250343#Requested move 10 May 2023}} |
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http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/15/us/missouri-teen-shooting/ <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 09:13, 12 March 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== No mention of BLM? == |
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:We have the actual audio of Wilson being told about the robbery, as well as his audio just prior to the stop. the DOJ investigated this specific issue (if wilson was aware or not) and concluded he was (see page 6 of DOJ report ) ] (]) 16:08, 12 March 2017 (UTC) |
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The CCTV footage shows Brown being refused credit for the Cigarillos and jamming them back into a display rack at the counter. At which point the clerk takes a swing at him over the counter and misses. Brown walks out. There was no robbery and that footage has been available since day one. It's time to stop referring to this as a robbery. It wasn't. ~Rr <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 17:29, 12 March 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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Why is there no mention of the fact that this is the incident that kick-started the Black Lives Matter movement? I see a refernce to BLM in the related articles but this was THE incident that made BLM into a prominent group. Any unbiased person who reads this, feel free to add it to the page, people should know that such a large movement was started over misinformation. ] (]) 23:51, 18 August 2022 (UTC) |
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:Yeah, that's a weird thing to omit. I'll look into this tomorrow. ] (]) 05:48, 19 August 2022 (UTC) |
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::IF there is controversy about whether the arresting officer (who wound up shooting the poor bloke) had initially stopped him because of a robbery report, THEN we should mention this controversy. I remember reading so many contradictory media reports at the time. (If there was no robbery (per video), did someone '''called''' a robbery report?) |
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::Still undone? Here are the sources from the BLM article which can be used to add the necessary text. I suggest its level of importance would place the information after, "... unrest in Ferguson (then add) when the movement called ] began their first massive street demonstrations." See Day, Elizabeth (July 19, 2015). "#BlackLivesMatter: the birth of a new civil rights movement". The Guardian. And see Luibrand, Shannon (August 7, 2015). "Black Lives Matter: How the events in Ferguson sparked a movement in America". CBS News. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 20:47, 4 February 2023 (UTC)</small><!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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::It looks like the CNN article the OP cited (1) fully denies that Wilson considered Brown a robbery suspect and (2) says he was stopped only for jaywalking. So, if there are other reports or investigations which draw an opposite conclusion, our readers would like to hear both sides. |
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::I concur - this event was at the root of what is now known as 'BLM'. ] (]) 16:48, 22 August 2023 (UTC) |
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:I absolutely agree. But certain people are keeping a close eye on this article to push right wing narratives. Some of them appear to have some pull around here too. ] (]) 16:03, 30 May 2024 (UTC) |
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== Jennings Disbandment == |
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::In fact, the entire point of the incident (or really, national response to it) is that there were two opposite narratives. It always helps Misplaced Pages to present both sides, and let readers make up their own minds. For example, the "hands up, don't shoot" meme is still widely believed to this day: a huge proportion of Americans think Brown was in the very act of surrendering when the cop just shot him - to death! - for no reason. They are not swayed by ] results. Nor should the article '''conclude''' that the grand jury was right. Let's just stay neutral. --] (]) 17:32, 12 March 2017 (UTC) |
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The portion of Darren Wilson's background that mentions his previous employment with the disbanded Jennings, MO PD should also mention the reason for the disbanding: |
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::Also, supposedly there is video evidence of the "theft" and there supposedly was a "stealing" report made to the police. |
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::*Brown and Witness 101 had just come from Ferguson Market and Liquor (“Ferguson Market”), a nearby convenience store, where, at approximately 11:53 a.m., Brown stole several packages of cigarillos. As captured on the store’s surveillance video, when the store clerk tried to stop Brown, Brown used his physical size to stand over him and forcefully shove him away. As a result, an FPD dispatch call went out over the police radio for a “stealing in progress.” |
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::I'm not saying I believe any of this; nor am I saying that I doubt it. I'm just passing on the what the sources claim. --] (]) 17:36, 12 March 2017 (UTC) |
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The small city of Jennings, Mo., had a police department so troubled, and with so much tension between white officers and black residents, that the city council finally decided to disband it. Everyone in the Jennings police department was fired. New officers were brought in to create a credible department from scratch. |
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http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/documentary-reveals-overlooked-footage-in-michael-brown-case-in-ferguson/article_8aa5908d-cb00-53c6-a833-c1672e471791.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter |
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From https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/darren-wilsons-first-job-was-on-a-troubled-police-force-disbanded-by-authorities/2014/08/23/1ac796f0-2a45-11e4-8593-da634b334390_story.html |
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"Attorney Jay Kanzler, who spoke with a group of angry protesters outside the market Sunday night, said the newly surfaced surveillance video of Brown visiting the store about 1 a.m. had long been in the hands of authorities and Brown's family." |
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As the sections stands now, this portion of his history seems non sequitur. ] (]) 10:53, 13 May 2024 (UTC) |
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"There was no exchange of drugs for anything from the store, Kanzler said. '''The footage in the documentary''' does show Brown putting what appears to be marijuana on the counter at the shop, but '''has been edited to cut out Ferguson Market employees throwing back the bag''', Kanzler said." |
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== Article being targeted by racist/white nationalist contributors == |
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] (]) 05:45, 13 March 2017 (UTC) |
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Mike Brown was, objectively, a child at the time of his death. Several media outlets regularly referred to him as such while reporting on this story. Despite this, my edits to this article were repeatedly reverted by a racist troll, who is now threatening to have my ability to edit articles blocked. Be careful about adding factual information to this article, racists might target you too. ] (]) 16:00, 30 May 2024 (UTC) |
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== new yorker article on wilson == |
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:Do sources refer to Michael Brown as a "child"? More importantly, you are not ] about your fellow contributors by calling them a "racist troll". – ] (]) 16:09, 30 May 2024 (UTC) |
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http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/08/10/the-cop |
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::"One last point: I have zero tolerance for racists and Nazis. I will block you on sight" |
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::I find this tidbit a bit ironic. I guess Mike Brown Sr. being quoted by mainstream sources several times isn't good enough for wikipedia. Whatever. You guys run the site, so you're the arbiters of truth when it comes to racist police killings. You win. Have a nice day! |
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] (]) 16:15, 30 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:You're editing this article from your point of view, which is against ], one of the core pillars of Misplaced Pages. Racism is abhorrent. The editors you are accusing of being "racist trolls" have shown no evidence of racism, but are upholding NPOV. Have a read of the policy to better understand what might help you be a constructive contributor here. – ] (]) 16:21, 30 May 2024 (UTC) |
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== Restructuring the narrative == |
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This was not homicide ] (]) 05:32, 19 June 2024 (UTC) |
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It's imperative we fix the narrative. Mike Brown did not "rob" the store. There was a drug deal the night before. Brown gave the clerks a bag of marijuana in exchange for two boxes of cigarillos. He left the cigarillos at the store. Brown came back the next day and asked for his cigarillos. They were denied to him. Still indebted two cartoons, he took two a box of cigarillos and walked out the store removing himself from the environment. The store owners called the police, and under threat of criminal charge there was an altercation. Darren Wilson, while in a vehicle, shot and killed Brown then unarmed. Any attempt at further neutrality in the the eyes of revelations withheld will just impugn the reputability of Misplaced Pages. Our frame is even more pro-cop than . Let's fix this. It's wrong to infuse the notion of Brown as a thief when that's ''clearly'' not the case. ] (]) 19:03, 13 March 2017 (UTC) |
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== article is not neutral == |
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:The opinions of one amateur filmmaker who happened to get his hands on the video, as well as be interviewed by the New Yorker is hardly justification for any changes to the article. Come back when you have ''multiple sources'' that can corroborate the claims made. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:08, 13 March 2017 (UTC) |
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While this article has the posture neutrality (very long, with many details), almost all of the "facts" serve to exonerate Wilson and condemn Brown. It quotes ONLY discredited witness testimony condemning Wilson, and reports ONLY witness testimony exonerating him: repeatedly specifying that witnesses who exonerated him were "black" (an obvious attempt to deflect potential critique that the testimony was racially motivated). It repeats supposed "facts" exonerating Wilson, for instance at least twice citing St. Louis County prosecutor Wesley Bell's inconclusive investigation: it makes it sound as if Bell exonerated Wilson, whereas Bell in fact said that the investigation did not exonerate Wilson: “the question of whether we can prove a case at trial is different than clearing him of any and all wrongdoing.” I don't know whether the article is "being targeted by racist/white nationalist contributors," but the article is not neutral on its face, so should be reviewed by Misplaced Pages for factual accuracy and balanced viewpoint. ] (]) 03:18, 26 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:: There are plenty of sources... , , , , ... What more do you want. With all this information, we say nothing and refuse to change our narrative. ] (]) 19:14, 13 March 2017 (UTC) |
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:It may be helpful to know that wikipedia is overwhelmingly white and male. ] (]) 18:26, 15 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:::I'm looking at them now. I can say that you'd better stop with the insistent tone that Misplaced Pages is ''always incorrect'' when it comes to current events. It's not helping your cause. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:16, 13 March 2017 (UTC) |
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:along these lines, why is the height and weight of Brown and Johnson noted and not the height and weight of Wilson? ] (]) 22:41, 15 September 2024 (UTC) |
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== Problem in biography of Michael Brown == |
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::::Sorry, but this is no good, considering that CNN cannot verify the authenticity of the video in question. {{u|Mandruss}} I saw that you were just lurking here, and I'm curious as to your opinion. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:18, 13 March 2017 (UTC) |
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Why is Michael Brown's height and weight listed in the 2nd sentence of his biography? Seems like it's there as justification for his murder? I have never seen height and weight in a biography before unless it is for a professional athlete (and rarely even then). In my opinion this violates Misplaced Pages's "neutral point of view" policy just in the placement of this information at this specific spot. It's no "backgroun information" - it's part of the legal case put forward by police officer as to why he killed Michael Brown and belongs in another section of the Misplaced Pages entry that deals with prosecutor and defense arguments. ] (]) 18:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC) |
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:::::Yeah, I stopped reading after CNN and ABC, which both attribute the claim to the filmmaker. That hardly justifies using wiki voice for this supposed narrative. The pot-for-cigarillos theory is one veiwpoint, and the article already addresses it neutrally at ]. As for the more general claims about NPOV vio, there is no point to such sweeping assertions. EvanCarroll is welcome to get specific and we can discuss it point by point. I know that editors more experienced and more competent than I have not seen a neutrality problem with this article. ―] ] 19:25, 13 March 2017 (UTC) |
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:Agree with those above that at most we can attribute the filmmakers assertions and opinions to the filmmaker. "Changing the narrative" would require multiple sources stating that the narrative has been changed - in their own voice. When they analyze the video, and they say as a fact that this changes things, then we can follow along. But that has not happened yet. The filmmaker has asserted something, that assertion has been counter-asserted by the store, with claims of doctored video. We need to wait and see what happens over the next several weeks here. In any case, what did or did not happen in the store is mostly irrelevant. In the end a call to the police was made, and that call was dispatched out, where Wilson heard about it. Everything past that point stands on its own merit as either justifiable or not, based on the interaction between Wilson and Brown alone. ] (]) 20:05, 13 March 2017 (UTC) |
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Why is there no mention of the fact that this is the incident that kick-started the Black Lives Matter movement? I see a refernce to BLM in the related articles but this was THE incident that made BLM into a prominent group. Any unbiased person who reads this, feel free to add it to the page, people should know that such a large movement was started over misinformation. 99.18.204.223 (talk) 23:51, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
The portion of Darren Wilson's background that mentions his previous employment with the disbanded Jennings, MO PD should also mention the reason for the disbanding:
The small city of Jennings, Mo., had a police department so troubled, and with so much tension between white officers and black residents, that the city council finally decided to disband it. Everyone in the Jennings police department was fired. New officers were brought in to create a credible department from scratch.
Mike Brown was, objectively, a child at the time of his death. Several media outlets regularly referred to him as such while reporting on this story. Despite this, my edits to this article were repeatedly reverted by a racist troll, who is now threatening to have my ability to edit articles blocked. Be careful about adding factual information to this article, racists might target you too. MysticStyles (talk) 16:00, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
While this article has the posture neutrality (very long, with many details), almost all of the "facts" serve to exonerate Wilson and condemn Brown. It quotes ONLY discredited witness testimony condemning Wilson, and reports ONLY witness testimony exonerating him: repeatedly specifying that witnesses who exonerated him were "black" (an obvious attempt to deflect potential critique that the testimony was racially motivated). It repeats supposed "facts" exonerating Wilson, for instance at least twice citing St. Louis County prosecutor Wesley Bell's inconclusive investigation: it makes it sound as if Bell exonerated Wilson, whereas Bell in fact said that the investigation did not exonerate Wilson: “the question of whether we can prove a case at trial is different than clearing him of any and all wrongdoing.” I don't know whether the article is "being targeted by racist/white nationalist contributors," but the article is not neutral on its face, so should be reviewed by Misplaced Pages for factual accuracy and balanced viewpoint. 151.202.23.122 (talk) 03:18, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
Why is Michael Brown's height and weight listed in the 2nd sentence of his biography? Seems like it's there as justification for his murder? I have never seen height and weight in a biography before unless it is for a professional athlete (and rarely even then). In my opinion this violates Misplaced Pages's "neutral point of view" policy just in the placement of this information at this specific spot. It's no "backgroun information" - it's part of the legal case put forward by police officer as to why he killed Michael Brown and belongs in another section of the Misplaced Pages entry that deals with prosecutor and defense arguments. BestestC (talk) 18:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
