Talk:Religious views of Adolf Hitler: Difference between revisions

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			== Hitlers Table Talks ==

			There are large sections of this article that are derived from Hitler's Table Talks, but it has been challenged as an unreliable source (both the translations and the original German version) so should it even feature to begin with let alone without a mitigating statement discussing it's possible unreliability? ] (]) 02:28, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
	== Beware of using Speer to claim Hitler was Catholic ==

			:Most scholars have regarded Hitler's Table Talk as authentic. Challenges by Carrier and other like-minded scholars are already mentioned in the article (though they are problems with their methodologies as pointed out by some of the scholars who affirm its authenticity, which haven't been mentioned in the article). If some sort of discussion is needed to be made, it's the rebuttal to the argument that Hitler's Table Talk is fraudulent, as proposed by Carrier, among others. ] (]) 02:26, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
	Beware of using Speer as your confirmation that Hitler was "Catholic". Speer did note that he thought Hitler had "no attachment" to Catholicism, but "remained in the Church" at the time of his suicide. BUT Speer also writes that Hitler intended a "reckoning with the Church" once his "other problem" was solved. This fits with what Goebells wrote about Hitler keeping senior Nazis in their Churches as a "tactical" move. This should also explain to the doubters why all the Hitler biographers state that Hitler was hostile to Catholicism. ] (]) 23:51, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
			:

			You should try actually reading some of the things you posted. Hitler Redux for example:
	:Hi {{ping\|Ozhistory}}, thanks for reviewing the article. I hope everyone will agree, now, that the pov tag can come off? {{ping\|Hamstergamer}}, still OK? ] (]) 05:11, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

			"The table talks are full of ...statements – and they are CORRABORATED by other independent sources.." - Page 64
	Actually...not anymore. I have issues with the recent edits.

			"The evidence suggests, beyond any reasonable doubt, that Heim’s proof pages are genuine." - Page 194
	"Though he became hostile to its teachings in adulthood, did not participate in its rites, and planned a "reckoning" with the Church when politics allowed, he had not officially left it at the time of his suicide". There are several problems with this sentence. The most glaring one is the expression "in adulthood". I've already talked about that, it's biased because it blurs time. All the anti-Christian statements from Hitler date from after 1939. Hitler became an adult when he turned 18, but he was past 50 when he made those statements. That's why I replaced it by "towards the end of his life". Besides, this sentence is just repeating what has already been said elsewhere. The introduction already states "there is a consensus among historians that Hitler became hostile to Christianity towards the end of his life". Repeating the exact same thing as a reserve on the statement of Hitler belonging to the Catholic church is both needless and undue weight. Besides, I read Speer's quotes and I don't remember anything about Hitler being hostile to the church's teachings. How is "being hostile to the church's teachings" even a verifiable fact? Is there evidence of Hitler having a priest arrested because he didn't like the religious contents of his sermon? I always thought Hitler only fought the political side of the churches. If he had nothing against their religious teachings, you can't really claim that, can you? I agree with the part about not participating in the rites and the "reckoning" though, this can definitely be said. But as a whole, you can't put 2 lines of reserve before stating that Hitler was officially a member of the Catholic church, that's a clear undue weight issue.

			"They are both based on real utterances by Hitler." - Page 200
	"At times in his political career, Hitler said he supported "Christianity" in public speeches". Why add the expression "at times"? Are there times where his attitude towards Christianity in public was - not - open support? Citation needed? And why put "Christianity" in quotes? It's not in quotes in any of the sources, isn't that a No True Scotsman to imply that it's not "true" Christianity?

			" Picker had told Quick(German magazine) that Engel and Bodenschatz(Göring’s liaison officer by Hitler) , as partakers at the dinners in the FHQ, had testified to their authenticity. In addition, it had been concluded that “new finds in the United States and Switzerland” proved “that the documents are authentic.” The latter must have referred to Heim’s proof pages, found by Mau in July, and to Genoud’s manuscript, which had been brought to the IfZ’s attention since the publication of Tischgespräche. This conclusion was of course ... valid in so far as it related to the documents themselves." - Page 76
	My version :

			"However, and this is very important, the results presented in this book should absolutely not be interpreted as meaning that the table talks are not authentic. They really are, at least for the most part, memoranda of statements that Hitler made at some point or another in his wartime HQs." - Page 388
	Hitler remained a member of the Catholic church until his suicide. However he did not participate in its rites, and according to Speer he had no personal attachment to it at the end of his life.

			Source: Hitler Redux: The Incredible History of Hitler’s So-Called Table Talks by Mikael Nilsson
	even the "reckoning" part, while perfectly relevant, has already been said elsewhere in the introduction, like in "Hitler eventually hoped to eliminate the Christian churches in Germany, although he was prepared to delay conflicts for political reasons". so no point saying it here. Again, repetitions and undue weight. ] (]) 20:34, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

	:::Recent version is fine. We cant really say when he became hostile to Catholicism as he kept his real views secret. Adulthood will have to do.] (]) 20:44, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

			Also Carrier
	::::I agree with Hamstergamer that the repetition is undue weight, and that the scare quotes around "Christianity" imply a bias. ] (]) 21:02, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

			". Nilsson found that what German versions we actually have any published edition of now are AUTHENTIC there really were notes taken down in Hitler's bunker of things he was remembered to have said, by people who were there"
	::::: Opposing "Hitler was baptized as a boy" and "he became hostile to the church's teachings in adulthood" implies that Hitler lost his faith as a young adult like Rudolf Höss did. That's a very biased way of putting it. I call that original synthesis. ] (]) 07:44, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

			--Richard Carrier
	::::: I completely agree with the edits (I edited nothing). The "at some point during adulthood" is good and putting it several sentences after the "he was baptized as a boy" removes the original synthesis. GJ. I think the NPOV issue is gone now.
			] (]) 05:37, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

			== Hitler and Himmler ==
	::::: Still one contradiction :
	:::::"he became hostile to religion, especially Christianity, at some point during adulthood" (wikipedia) vs "The Führer is deeply religious, but completely anti-Christian" (Goebbels). I'm not sure the claim that Hitler was against religion in general is supported. ] (]) 23:18, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

			He who has some German may read that whimsical story from Corona times --] (]) 21:26, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
	{{od}}{{ping\|Hamstergamer}}'s version of this sentence: {{tq\|Hitler remained a member of the Catholic church until his suicide. However he did not participate in its rites, and according to Speer he had no personal attachment to it at the end of his life.}} has been reverted by {{ping\|EarlOfBagels}} to {{ping\|OzHistory}}'s version {{tq\|Though he became hostile to its teachings in adulthood, did not participate in its rites, and planned a "reckoning" with the Church when politics allowed, he had not officially left it at the time of his suicide.}} Hamstergamer's objection to this formulation was based on ], but mainly on a question about whether Hitler was hostile to the Catholic Church's teachings, or merely its politics. Is there a citation that could be used to verify the statement? Hamstergamer thinks that Speer didn't exactly say that.

			== Excommunication ==
	Perhaps to further put the facts in perspective, the article should specifically point out that the issue isn't just that Hitler didn't quit the church himself. Just as importantly, he was never excommunicated by the Catholic church hierarchy, in spite of his misdeeds. ] (]) 18:34, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
	Sorry, misspelled {{ping\|Ozhistory}}. ] (]) 18:36, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

			Section #1 Historiography includes "Yet, these authors seem to have missed the fact that Hitler was in fact excommunicated, along with all other Nazi leaders, in 1931." with Scholder, Klaus, The Churches and the Third Reich. 2 vols. Fortress Press, 1988 pp. 150–162 cited. On p.150 of vol.1 (which covers 1918-January 1934) I see "As early as the November of this fateful year, the Bavarian envoy could report confidentially that the decision of the Mainz diocesan authorities to excommunicate members of the NSDAP would not be approved in the Vatican." https://archive.org/details/churchesthirdrei0001scho/page/150/mode/2up?q=excommunicate. I don't see anything in the following pages indicating the Vatican approved excommunication later. Pages 150-62 of vol.2 which covers December 1933-October 1934 https://archive.org/details/churchesthirdrei0002scho/page/n7/mode/2up don't refer to excomunication.
	My main objection to this formulation was the fact that it repeated as a reserve things that were already clearly said elsewhere in the introduction. So repetitions and undue weight. Look at my previous comments.
	The original synthesis was fixed by separating the statements so it's no longer an issue, forget about that.
	Please stop edit warring without debating here.
	The fact that Hitler was never excommunicated is said in the bulk of the article, just not in the introduction. If you want to quickly mention it in the introduction, why not. The relevant fact is maybe the fact that he wasn't excommunicated after his death, which isn't implied by what there is written currently.] (]) 22:45, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
	:Hamstergamer, thanks for the clarification. Above you wrote, {{tq\|I read Speer's quotes and I don't remember anything about Hitler being hostile to the church's teachings. How is "being hostile to the church's teachings" even a verifiable fact?}} Who knows what Hitler actually thought, but the question is what Speer said about it, or what historians think in general? It seems reasonable to ask for a citation check. ] (]) 03:58, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

			The lede includes "Even though Nazi leadership was excommunicated from the Catholic Church," the reference being to a Google Books preview of Behind Barbed Wire by Deborah G. Lindsay. Page 157 includes "In 1931, however, a Vatican edict banned Catholics from Party membership and excommunicated all members within the Nazi leadership.959" but since the preview doesn't include the notes I'm unable to see what 959 is and check basis for that statement.
	: It would be better to ask for citation for an historian who doesn't say Hitler was hostile to Catholicism, as this is how his main biographers define his view of the religion. Who are the historians who claim otherwise? ] (]) 09:34, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

			If excommunication is certain perhaps the citations could be made more exact. ] (]) 14:16, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
	== Changes to the lede ==

			I think the excommunications were rescinded. ] (]) 05:29, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
	] I don't necessarily disagree with your edits in truthfulness, but the lede reads better as currently written. Per pretty much all of the sources in the article, Hitler was born and raised Catholic, he remained a member of the Catholic church his entire life, he spoke positively about Christianity in public (especially during the early years of the Third Reich) and at some point became very opposed to religion and this is exactly what the lede says now. To write that he was opposed to religion in the first sentence, does not agree with his periods of positive commentary about Christianity, and to a lesser extent Islam, in his early leadership of Nazi party. All of this is well documented in the article. Most is a weasel word unless well sourced. The average reader seeing 4 scholars saying the same thing will be construed as strong proof, there is no reason to change it to "most". ] (]) 18:25, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
	::All mentioned historians say he was opposed to religion. "Skeptical" is just ]] (]) 18:33, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
	:::It depends on what period on the timeline of his life. No sources say he was always opposed, which is what your edit implies. Most says he ended up opposed to religion and that is how the lede currently reads. ] (]) 18:40, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

			== No need for direct quotes. ==
	:::No it says "skeptical" which is clearly ]. Stop removing most historians, it is the longstanding version.] (]) 18:50, 17 March 2017 (UTC) ] (]) 18:50, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

			@], Please read the talk page's question: " "Why do the views of historians dominate the introduction, rather than us just relying on extended quotes from Hitler speeches?"" above in '''Frequently asked questions (FAQ)''' ] (]) 16:05, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
	::::"Most" was added this month. Before it said "many". "Many" was determined to be vague, so those specific scholars were added, which is probably an improvement. ] It reads great as is. The really long term stable version would have that entire sentence removed. ] (]) 18:56, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
	::I am going to re add many and if you remove it I will report you and you will almost certainly be blocked.] (]) 19:11, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
	:::That was the issue, as I already noted and you were confused as "many" not "most" was in long term stable version. You shouldn't make threats when you are over 3RR, escpecially since you have zero influence on blocking me. ] (]) 19:17, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
	::::::No I am not, that would be you. Either way none of this changes the fact that you are breaching wiki policy.] (]) 19:22, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
	::::::Umm, no you have breached policy. You had no consensus, you breached 3rr and you ignored the spirit of Bold, Revert, Discuss. i had to open this discussion and it never said Many, it said most. Happy Friday! ] (]) 19:31, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
	:::::::::Take a look at your own edit history. You have broken 3RR and have no consensus to delete many.] (]) 19:54, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
	::::::: ] your are violation of ] and 3RR. When two other editors ask you to discuss you should listen and respect the process of Misplaced Pages. I have checked through the history and there is no 'stable' version of this article over the last 4-6 weeks. The best improvement was the inclusion of named historians instead of 'many' or 'most' (although these terms are variously included as well). Let's discuss the best way forward rather than resorting to edit warring and threats (which you are guilty of) ] (])
	::::::::And he just edits it again anyway. ] (]) 20:14, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

			:Your point is mute. Albert Speer isn't a historian, to the best of his ability he is recollecting Hitler's own words. I will be continuing to revert your unnecessary changes. It is quite evident that you don't like what is being said and that is why you're making these revisions.] (]) 16:24, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
	{{ping\|Robynthehode}} Give one reason why many cant e included as well as the kid of historians. If the list of historians has been added then there is no vagueness.] (]) 22:14, 17 March 2017 (UTC) ] (]) 22:14, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
			::The point was that relying on quotes was neither practical, because of the contradictory nature of so many of Hitler's words and actions. ] (]) 03:14, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
			:::The quotes are in no way contradictory and they can be found in a multitude of other sources. You keep coming up with different excuses for your revisions. Your new excuse now is that Speer isn't reliable. If that is the case why didn't you just remove all of the Speer quotes on the page? And not just this one specific one. If the reliability of Speer's quotes were a problem you would have removed all of his quotes on the page but you've only removed these specific quotes from this specific section. Speer has been cited on this page since the beginning of it. It's quite clear that you seem to have a problem with the quotes. Your original edit didn't make any mention of the reliability of Speer but now you are coming up with new excuses for your revisions.

			:::Thank you for outing yourself once again. ] (]) 08:13, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
	== New edits ==
			::::"If that is the case why didn't you just remove all of the Speer quotes on the page?"
			::::I would have if I had the time to properly streamline the content so as not to rely on excessive qoutes while retaining the essence of Hitler's views. But that is the purpose of Misplaced Pages. Its a collaborative process.
			::::Its a simple ] way of editing the content adhering to ] yet you just desire to give unwarranted ] to relying on direct extended quotes that just takes considerable space. ] (]) 10:21, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
			:::::On an important note, the excluded quote redundantly echoes Hitler's admiration for the militaristic aspects of Islam and its forceful expansion themes already addressed in preceding sections of the content. Therefore, the condensed content I proposed can be entirely omitted, as it is essentially repetition. ] (]) 10:39, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
			::::::@] Uhh actually me posting the section in your talk page was kinda asking a ]. ] (]) 12:08, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
			:::::::Right, but if you post it ''at'' ], you will hopefully get somebody (or several people) more knowledgeable about the subject than me. ] \| ] 12:12, 27 November 2023 (UTC).
			:::::No you wouldn't have, because as I said previously we've already established that you don't have a problem with any of the other Speer quotes on the page apart from the ones to do with Islam. And here we go, once again you're coming up with a new excuse for your revision, now it's because of repetition. The specific quotes that you removed are not quoted anywhere else on the page.

			:::::I'm going to quote you here: 'Also streamlining a piece of quote does not merit that every other also needs the same treatment, although it definitely could use some. I'll leave that to another editor.'.
	I am shifting alot of material around, in the hope of ultimately reducing the size of the article by deleting repetition, of which there is still much. I am also cross-checking sources which have often moved away from original text. ] (]) 06:42, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

			:::::I think the solution is simple, you can edit all of them or you can leave them how they all are. Looking at your edit history it is quite clear why you have a problem with the specific quotes regarding Islam and none of the other ones.
			:::::Every single reply you offer a new excuse for your revisions. If you wish to make any further posts regarding third party opinions, I would be happy to reply and input, but until then you keep making it abundantly clear that your revisions are unnecessary.

			] (]) 20:56, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
	== Introduction changes - debate ==

			:You have little to no understanding of Misplaced Pages policies and its conventions. Read what I said above again.
	The introduction has undergone important changes recently and not a single line of constructive debate has been had. Moving material from and to the introduction has obvious neutrality issues and there needs to be a serious discussion on this page on the recent changes to the intro. Personally I believe that any significant edit to the intro should be discussed here in a democratic manner - not doing so can only lead to ownership behavior and edit warring.
			:I did not said that the removed quote is mentioned elsewhere, rather I stated that it is essentially repetition as the line: "On the other hand, he also made private and public statements expressing admiration for what he perceived to be the militaristic nature of Islam" as well as "The Mohammedan religion would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?" have already have given more than enough ] to the idea and clearly demonstrated what Hitler though of the religion.
			:The ommited unnecessary ] repeats the same thing, which had to be dealth with ] and ]. Also coming back to first assertion, I stand by it again that a ''nazi'' individual cannot be given too much ] for a 100% ] source.
			:I have demonstrated dozens of necessary reasons. So far, all you have said is basically, ''"Nah, I like that quote; let it just stay'".
			:Now kindly stop the ] mentality and stop making a mountain out of a molehill. ] (]) 02:40, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
			::The words of a Nazi can't be trusted, he says this as a multitude of quotes on this page are cited from various different Nazis, your low IQ is showing. You can stop with the projection it has nothing to do with me liking a certain quote, it has to do with you not liking the contents of a certain quote. You said it was a repetitive, you haven't demonstrated any necessary reasons every time you come up with a new different excuse. If his words can't be trusted then why not just remove everything to do with him on the page. You know what I've got a better idea, how about you remove every quote cited from a Nazi on the article. I'm sure you would be in agreeance with that because their words cannot be trusted, right? But that's okay, I know you're not going to do that because as we've already established you only have a problem with this particular quote regarding what he has to say about Islam.
			::How about you just remove the whole section 'Hitler's contemporaries on his religious beliefs'. As the words of Nazis cannot be trusted. I'm struggling to understand your intellectual level here, there's a reason that the section is called 'Hitler's contemporaries on his religious beliefs' as it deals with what his confidants had to say about his religious beliefs. If you agree and we get some more input in here, I'm sure that we can just remove the whole section. As according to you nothing in there can be trusted. I'm sure you don't have any problem with that, right? ] (]) 03:10, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
			:::Again, please be more familiar with ''Misplaced Pages's'' policies and its conventions. Even if the aforementioned individual be taken as a 100% ], the content still needed trimming and condensation. And it still does, but like I have reiterated before that ''Misplaced Pages'' is a collaborative process. '''If I address one aspect on the page, it doesn't automatically mean I'm obligated to universally correct the entire page'''.
			:::Also kindly stop with constant personal attacks such as "your low IQ is showing" and "for outing yourself" and please read up on ]. ] (]) 03:23, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
			:::Calling other editors {{tq\|low IQ}} like you did above and ] is a ]. --] (]) 05:58, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

			== Sources? ==
	I see a lot of loaded language used in the introduction such as Hitler "oppressed the Churches" (used several times), or Hitler's "secretive and perfidious nature". This needs to be replaced by neutral words.

			what're the sources for the claim Hitler wasn't Christian? The article just says "some historians", but who specifically?
	Besides, the reason why there's a debate is not Hitler's "secretive and perfidious nature". It's the fact that the information is contradictory : some quotes support a Christian Hitler, some quotes support a Deist "Gottglaubig" Hitler, and some quotes support an anticlerical Hitler. There's also evidence that his beliefs changed through time.

			What's the source that he was excommunicated? ] (]) 22:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
	Hitler showing "skepticism towards religion at an early age" is NOT supported by quote at all, quote which can even support the opposite interpretation (asking a lot of questions = a fond interest in religion) ; and quote is NOT skepticism towards religion either, it's just Hitler saying that other people are skeptical, not himself - besides this is clearly biased since other quotes state that Hitler does believe in an afterlife. This "skepticisism towards religion at an early age" statement is really unsupported.

	Finally I take issue with removing the '''dates''' for each statement - which I remember mentioning myself - because Hitler's beliefs evolved over time : for example "His remarks to confidants indicate anti-Christian beliefs" has to say that this is post 1939.

	The section of the introduction on Mein Kampf has a significant bias. All the content is anticlerical and the passages stating Hitler's belief in a personal God were moved to the bulk. As someone who's read Mein Kampf from cover to cover - this is not an objective summary of the book's views on religion by any stretch.

	Finally - and this is an old issue of the article - the "victim narrative" of the Christian churches needs to be challenged. The role of the Churches during WW2 is complex and is NOT just the role of a victim. Like the part about the Vatican officially celebrating Hitler's birthday, which isn't even mentioned in the article, and the Catholic Church's support for Nazism before WW2. Having only a few words on the concordat while repeating multiple times that the Churches were "oppressed" is a massive undue weight issue and a long-standing bias througout the article. ] (]) 16:56, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

	: Hello, more recent edits have expanded the citations you name as of concern, to give a fuller account confirming those historians wrote that Hitler "showed skepticism towards religion at an early age". I cannot see how a summary could not touch on Hitler's deceptive nature, but I have added the caveat "partly". Undoubtedly the man's views evolved, so I agree with you on the necessity for dating. I also agree the Mein Kampf section needs work - but keep in mind the necessity to quote reliably sourced historians, and not merely pick out original research quotes supporting your interpretations. On your final concern of presenting the churches as victims, I have beefed up the citations from which this account is based. This is not an article about church responses to nazism, but it does concern Hitler's view and treatment of the churches. In any case, the sources overwhelmingly confirm the churches were oppressed under Hitler. ] (]) 04:04, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

	:: I tend to agree with your recent edits. However the accusation of "original research" is completely baseless. Quoting Mein Kampf where Hitler explicitely states his belief in a personal God on multiple occasions is anything but original research. Original research is interpretation of sources, here it's an explicit statement with no room for interpretation, quoted verbatim. At most you can say it's primary sources, but on a personal issue like religious beliefs I really can't understand not giving any room for what comes directly from the horse's mouth. ] (]) 07:18, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

	==Ridiculous bias==

	A bunch of editors who have never read a serious book about Hitler are trying to distort this page to make it look like he was a Christian.

	All of Hitler's close confidantes--Bormann, in his diaries; Goebbels, in his diaries; Speer, in his memoirs; and Goering, at Nuremberg--say he was anti-Christian and wanted to eliminate Christianity in the long run. That was also the conclusion of the Nuremberg Trials. And all of the academic biographies of Hitler--Kershaw, Bullock, Tolland, etc--say he was anti-Christian.

	Yes he made some speeches talking about jesus , and mentioned Jesus a couple times in Mein Kampf. The most persuasive explanation of this--and the explanation adopted by everyone who has looked at this seriously and objectively--is that it was done out of political necessity, in an overwhelmingly Christian society. Dude never went to church once after 18, leaving aside state functions. ] (]) 21:04, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

	: Your summary here is quite correct. We just need to work on sourcing for your summary lead. I'll take a closer look. ] (]) 22:23, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
	::: Update: I am working through to cite your material where possible. Perhaps though you can do some cross checking of your own, as some of the citations you have left no longer match the line.] (]) 00:04, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

	:::: Accusing editors of bad faith? "trying to distort this page"? Manners please.

	:::: Yes, Hitler was anti-Christian for sure starting 1939 as numerous quotes attest. However this says nothing about his beliefs pre-1939. There's a clear shift in tone from Mein Kampf to the WW2 era quotes. What tells you he didn't change from a Christian to a Deist during that time? That's whay Steigman-Gall says. Want to outrule his interpretation completely?

	:::: "He wanted to eliminate Christianity" : None of the sources you mention support claiming this as a fact. All the historians' quotes that support this interpretation keep the ambiguity between "control Christianity" and "destroy Christianity". Being a totalitarian leader, obviously Hitler wanted to control religion and sujugate it to Nazi ideology. However that's not the same thing as destroying it altogether : saying that Nazi-controlled Christianity is not Christianity would be a No True Scotsman fallacy. The persecutions of the Christian churches as reported in the OSS report as well as the Nuremberg trials speak of a struggle of the Nazis with the Christian Churches as POLITICAL entities. Identifying the churches with "christianity" is abusive because it implicitly forgets about the "control Christianity" interpretation.

	:::: ''Yes he made some speeches talking about jesus , and mentioned Jesus a couple times in Mein Kampf. The most persuasive explanation of this--and the explanation adopted by everyone who has looked at this seriously and objectively--is that it was done out of political necessity, in an overwhelmingly Christian society.'' -> Your alleged "seriousness" and "objectiveness" are irrelevant. Only the sources you can provide to support your claim matter. That's one of the possible interpretations, but if you want the article to claim it as the objective truth to the exclusion of all others, prove it. ] (]) 18:28, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

	: Hamstergamer, Bullock and Kershaw certainly do speak of Hitler and the Nazis hope to destroy Christianity. As do Speer, Goebbels and of course Bormann. The quotes begin well before 1939. The OSS brief in fact is explicit too: Christianity was a foundational ideological enemy of Nazism, not merely a political rival. ] (]) 22:25, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

	:: Exact citations please. ] (]) 05:44, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

	::: Well Kershaw writes that in 1937 Goebbels noted Hitler was becoming more radical on the 'Church Question', and indicated that, though current political circumstances required waiting, his long therm plan was to eventually dissolve the Reich concordat with Rome, detach the church entirely from the state and turn the entire force of the party to 'the destruction of the clerics', and end the ] in a 'great world showdown'.<ref>Ian Kershaw; Hitler 1936-1945 Nemesis; WW Norton & Company; 2000; pp.40-41</ref> In 1941, when Bishop ] protested against Nazi Euthanasia and seizures of church properties, although Hitler's sympathies lay with the radicals who wanted Galen dead and church properties seized, he calculated that this would turn Catholic areas still further against the regime. "Only the need for peace in relation with the churches to avoid deteriorating morale on the home front determined his stance", wrote Kershaw, "Events in the Warthegau (where by 1941 94% of churches and chapels in the Posen-Gnesen diocese were closed, 11 % of the clergy were murdered, and most of the remainder thrust into prisons and concentration camps) showed the face of the future."<ref>Ian Kershaw; Hitler 1936-1945 Nemesis; WW Norton & Company; 2000; pp.428</ref>

	::: Here's Bullock: Once the war was over, wrote Bullock, Hitler wanted to root out and destroy the influence of the churches, though until till then he would be circumspect for political reasons:.<ref name="Hitler p219">]; '']''; Harper Perennial Edition 1991; p. 219</ref>

	::: In an 8 April 1941 entry, Goebbels wrote that Hitler "hates Christianity, because it has crippled all that is noble in humanity."<ref name="Fred Taylor Translation pp. 304–305">Fred Taylor Translation; The Goebbels Diaries 1939–41; Hamish Hamilton Ltd; London; 1982; ISBN 0-241-10893-4; pp. 304 305: Goebbels wrote in 1941 that Hitler "hates Christianity" because it had made humans abject and weak, and also because the faith exalted the dignity of human life, while disregarding the rights and well-being of animals.</ref>

	::: According to Speer, Hitler's private secretary, ], relished recording any harsh pronouncements by Hitler against the church.<ref>Speer, Albert (1971). ''Inside the Third Reich: Memoirs''. New York: Simon and Schuster. ISBN 978-0-684-82949-4.</ref> Speer noted in his memoir that churches were not to receive building sites in Hitler's new Berlin.<ref>Albert Speer. (1997). '']''. New York: Simon and Schuster, </ref> Speer considered Bormann to be the driving force behind the regime's campaign against the churches. Speer thought that Hitler approved of Bormann's aims, but was more pragmatic and wanted to "postpone this problem to a more favourable time": "Once I have settled my other problem," occasionally declared, "I'll have my reckoning with the church. I'll have it reeling on the ropes." But Bormann did not want this reckoning postponed he would take out a document from his pocket and begin reading passages from a defiant sermon or pastoral letter. Frequently Hitler would become so worked up... and vowed to punish the offending clergyman eventually... That he could not immediately retaliate raised him to a white heat..."<ref>Albert Speer; ''Inside the Third Reich: Memoirs''; Translation by Richard & Clara Winston; Macmillan; New York; 1970; p.123</ref>

	::: And finally Bormann - On 14 October 1941, in an entry concerning the fate of Christianity, Hitler says: "Science cannot lie, for its always striving, according to the momentary state of knowledge, to deduce what is true. When it makes a mistake, it does so in good faith. It's Christianity that's the liar. It's in perpetual conflict with itself."{{sfn\|Cameron\|Stevens\|Weinberg\|Trevor-Roper\|2007\|p=48}} Religion will crumble before scientific advances, says Hitler: "The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble. All that's left is to prove that in nature there is no frontier between the organic and the inorganic. When understanding of the universe has become widespread, when the majority of men know that the stars are not sources of light but worlds, perhaps inhabited worlds like ours, then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity."{{sfn\|Cameron\|Stevens\|Weinberg\|Trevor-Roper\|2007\|pp=59–61}}

	::: The OSS investigator wrote:
	:::{{quotation\|"National Socialism was by its very nature hostile to Christianity and the Christian churches Conflict was inevitable Important leaders of the National Socialist party would have liked to meet this situation by a complete extirpation of Christianity and the substitution of a purely racial religion tailored to fit the needs of National Socialist policy. This radically anti-Christian position is most significantly presented in Alfred Rosenberg's '']''...generally regarded after '']'' as the most authoritative statement of National Socialist ideology. Thus in a declaration of 5 November 1934, ], the German youth leader declared... 'the destruction of Christianity was explicitly recognised as a purpose of the National Socialist movement. Considerations of expediency made it impossible, however to to adopt this radical anti-Christian policy officially. Thus the policy actually adopted was to reduce the influence of the Christian churches as far as possible through use of every available means, without provoking the difficulties of an open war of extermination."\|OSS; The Nazi Master Plan; Annex 4: The Persecution of the Christian Churches, 6 July 1945}}

	::: Speaking of sources, do you have any precise ones please?? ] (]) 07:29, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

	:::: This is not about me submitting my own sources to disagree with the "Destroy Christianity" theory. My point is way stronger than that. This is about your own sources not proving this theory in any way, in fact the sources you show, specifically selected to prove your point, actually support my point, which I clearly stated in the above paragraph. For me '''"Hitler wanted to destroy Christianity" is pretty much one big conspiracy theory with no valid evidence to support it'''. Stating a conspiracy theory that has a large popularity on Christian blogs on Misplaced Pages as a proven fact is the kind of thing that warrants a shiny NPOV tag.

	:::: Let's go through the quotes one at a time :

	:::: - Kershaw : This is a about a power struggle between the Nazi party and the Church as a political entity. Obviously a totalitarian leader like Hitler doesn't want the Vatican meddling with his business, he wants to control religion himself. This has nothing to do with "Christianity" as an abstract idea, the word isn't even mentioned. No plan to destroy Christianity to see here, and no evidence to decide between "destroy" and "control".

	:::: - Bullock : The "influence of the Churches"? "Delaying conflict for political reasons?". Exactly my point. This is a political struggle, not a religious one. Again, no plan to destroy "Christianity". And no evidence to decide between "destroy" and "control".

	:::: - Goebbels : Hitler is anti-Christian after 1939 like I said myself. Nothing new.

	:::: - Speer : political struggle and nothing else.

	:::: - Bormann : Hitler is anti-Christian after 1939, nothing new. Besides, this is Table Talk, which is highly dubious as a source, so the extreme anti-Christian sentiment could well be a mistranslation.

	:::: - OSS report : The only one that says anything of the sort. But there are multiple issues here. First off, this passage is exclusively about the Rosenberg wing of the Nazi movement, not Nazism as a whole, and definitely not Hitler's official stance. The quote is misrepresenting the actual message of the report because 'the destruction of Christianity was explicitly recognised as a purpose of the National Socialist movement' is taken out of context. What it says is 'So '''as far as this sector of the National Socialist Party is concerned''', the destruction of Christianity was explicitly recognised as a purpose of the National Socialist movement' Second, while the OSS report clearly claims that the Rosenberg wing wants the destruction of Christianity, it's not exactly an ideologically neutral source. Is there external confirmation for this? When you look at Rosenberg's actual writing, it's pretty clear that he's talking about the version of Christianity that has been corrupted by the "Jewish influence" of Paul of Tarsus, and that he wishes to replace that with "positive Christianity" : https://en.wikipedia.org/The_Myth_of_the_Twentieth_Century. So are Rosenberg's writings anti-Christian...or anti-Catholic? Is there evidence of Rosenberg condemning Christianity as a whole? And third, Hitler has officially distanced himself from Rosenberg's "Myth of the 20th Century", and has never read the book himself :

	:::: I must insist that Rosenberg's "The Myth of the Twentieth Century" is not to be regarded as an expression of the official doctrine of the party. The moment the book appeared, I deliberately refrained from recognizing it as any such thing. In the first place, its title gives a completely false impression... a National Socialist should affirm that to the myth of the nineteenth century he opposes the faith and science of our times... I have myself merely glanced cursorily at it. - Adolf Hitler

	:::: Note that the above quote is POST 1941. After Hiter became anti-Christian. This distanciation from Rosenberg is in direct contradiction with what the OSS report claims in your quote : "Alfred Rosenberg's Myth of the Twentieth Century...generally regarded after Mein Kampf as the most authoritative statement of National Socialist ideology". Well, Hitler doesn't seem to agree.

	:::: So, the only thing left is the OSS claim, and there are a lot of things that don't add up about it.

	:::: The most you could say is "According to the OSS report, the Rosenberg wing of the Nazi party had the intention to destroy Christianity in Germany, although Hitler distanced himself from Rosenberg's ideological views".

	:::: Does that even fit in this article? This article is about Hitler's religious views. ] (]) 16:20, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

	== Nuremberg ==

	Absent, but very pertinent is a good source on what the judges found at Nuremberg about Hitler's religious policy. I will go looking. ] (]) 23:23, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

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view · edit Frequently asked questions Q1: "Why do the views of historians dominate the introduction, rather than us just relying on extended quotes from Hitler speeches?" A1: The first reason is because Misplaced Pages policy requires an emphasis on reliable secondary sources, and secondly because of the contradictory nature of so many of Hitler's words and actions. The article covers several decades during which Hitler contradicted himself in word and action repeatedly. Relying on extended quotes, (especially from narrowly-sourced websites or blogs,) is therefore neither practical, nor likely to accurately summarise our article in a reasonable space. Misplaced Pages policy on sourcing, such as our policy on original synthesis and original research discourages users from interpreting the sources by themselves because people will disagree with the interpretation. Misplaced Pages policy is to regurgitate claims from secondary sources we think of as reliable. (We already have a section for "Hitler's public rhetoric and writings about religion".)

Isn't the idea that he wasn't Christian in and of itself revisionism? No. The long established, mainstream, orthodox viewpoint is that Hitler was not Christian. Prosecutors at the Nuremberg Trials after the War put the case that Hitler had engaged in a slow and cautious policy to eliminate Christianity. Richard Steigmann-Gall, (who is one of the scholars that we cite in partial opposition to this view,) in his book The Holy Reich notes that the concept has gone "unquestioned" by scholarship (p.3), in spite of the fact that "early all aspects of Nazism" (p.3) have been challenged by "revisionist scrutiny"(p.3) and proceeds to challenge it. Here is a review by Ernst Piper, saying "'the contention that National Socialism was a profoundly anti-Christian movement endured for so long not because it was convenient for researchers not to prove otherwise but..." "If Hitler was raised a Catholic and wasn't formally excommunicated, doesn't that make him a Catholic?" Many irreligious people were raised in religious households, but it does not mean they cannot change their religious identity. Accordingly, the article notes the view of Hitler biographers and historians like Ian Kershaw, Alan Bullock, William Shirer, Laurence Rees and others, that Hitler came to despise Christianity, and that his government in many ways persecuted the Catholic Church. The article notes too however Albert Speer and John Toland's view that Hitler, while being anti-clerical and having no connection to the Church, did not formally leave it before his death. Where are these historians even drawing from? Sources include Goebbels' diary on Hitler, Albert Speer's memoirs, and Hitler's Table Talk as transcribed by Bormann. Historians also cite the Nazi policy toward the churches, and Hitler's promotion of anti-Christians to key posts in his inner circle throughout his career: Himmler, Goebbels, Rosenberg, and Bormann were all virulent anti-Christians. What about Carrier and Mittschang's work on the subject? Shouldn't it destroy Table Talk? Yes, Carrier and Mittschang have challenged several statements in Table Talk. See this thread. Is the church persecution thing based off Table Talk? No, sources are multiple. They include the Nuremberg documents, the Goebbels Diaries, and Speer's memoirs. Other evidence of the Hitler regime's persecutions includes the Pope's Mit brennender Sorge 1937 encyclical and emergence of the Protestant Confessing Church, the prominence of Christian clerics in the Concentration camps, and of Christians in the German Resistance, the closure of religious schools and newspapers, arrest of clergymen, and seizure of church properties in Germany. May I add a new scholarly work to the article if it suits your definition of a good source, without rewriting the lede entirely? We should definitely be wary of undue weight, but if you find something directly relevant to Hitler, okay, you can put it in a relevant section.

Hitlers Table Talks

There are large sections of this article that are derived from Hitler's Table Talks, but it has been challenged as an unreliable source (both the translations and the original German version ) so should it even feature to begin with let alone without a mitigating statement discussing it's possible unreliability? Will Tyson for real (talk) 02:28, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Most scholars have regarded Hitler's Table Talk as authentic. Challenges by Carrier and other like-minded scholars are already mentioned in the article (though they are problems with their methodologies as pointed out by some of the scholars who affirm its authenticity, which haven't been mentioned in the article). If some sort of discussion is needed to be made, it's the rebuttal to the argument that Hitler's Table Talk is fraudulent, as proposed by Carrier, among others. Msiehta (talk) 02:26, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

You should try actually reading some of the things you posted. Hitler Redux for example:

"The table talks are full of ...statements – and they are CORRABORATED by other independent sources.." - Page 64

"The evidence suggests, beyond any reasonable doubt, that Heim’s proof pages are genuine." - Page 194

"They are both based on real utterances by Hitler." - Page 200

" Picker had told Quick(German magazine) that Engel and Bodenschatz(Göring’s liaison officer by Hitler) , as partakers at the dinners in the FHQ, had testified to their authenticity. In addition, it had been concluded that “new finds in the United States and Switzerland” proved “that the documents are authentic.” The latter must have referred to Heim’s proof pages, found by Mau in July, and to Genoud’s manuscript, which had been brought to the IfZ’s attention since the publication of Tischgespräche. This conclusion was of course ... valid in so far as it related to the documents themselves." - Page 76

"However, and this is very important, the results presented in this book should absolutely not be interpreted as meaning that the table talks are not authentic. They really are, at least for the most part, memoranda of statements that Hitler made at some point or another in his wartime HQs." - Page 388

Source: Hitler Redux: The Incredible History of Hitler’s So-Called Table Talks by Mikael Nilsson

Also Carrier

". Nilsson found that what German versions we actually have any published edition of now are AUTHENTIC there really were notes taken down in Hitler's bunker of things he was remembered to have said, by people who were there"

--Richard Carrier

Ithinkusergoeshere (talk) 05:37, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Hitler and Himmler

He who has some German may read that whimsical story from Corona times --Hellsepp (talk) 21:26, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Excommunication

Section #1 Historiography includes "Yet, these authors seem to have missed the fact that Hitler was in fact excommunicated, along with all other Nazi leaders, in 1931." with Scholder, Klaus, The Churches and the Third Reich. 2 vols. Fortress Press, 1988 pp. 150–162 cited. On p.150 of vol.1 (which covers 1918-January 1934) I see "As early as the November of this fateful year, the Bavarian envoy could report confidentially that the decision of the Mainz diocesan authorities to excommunicate members of the NSDAP would not be approved in the Vatican." https://archive.org/details/churchesthirdrei0001scho/page/150/mode/2up?q=excommunicate. I don't see anything in the following pages indicating the Vatican approved excommunication later. Pages 150-62 of vol.2 which covers December 1933-October 1934 https://archive.org/details/churchesthirdrei0002scho/page/n7/mode/2up don't refer to excomunication.

The lede includes "Even though Nazi leadership was excommunicated from the Catholic Church," the reference being to a Google Books preview of Behind Barbed Wire by Deborah G. Lindsay. Page 157 includes "In 1931, however, a Vatican edict banned Catholics from Party membership and excommunicated all members within the Nazi leadership.959" but since the preview doesn't include the notes I'm unable to see what 959 is and check basis for that statement.

If excommunication is certain perhaps the citations could be made more exact. Mcljlm (talk) 14:16, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

I think the excommunications were rescinded. 2601:982:8202:CDA0:6528:B0A:1ADB:BEA9 (talk) 05:29, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

No need for direct quotes.

@Ithinkusergoeshere, Please read the talk page's question: " "Why do the views of historians dominate the introduction, rather than us just relying on extended quotes from Hitler speeches?"" above in Frequently asked questions (FAQ) 182.183.20.126 (talk) 16:05, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Your point is mute. Albert Speer isn't a historian, to the best of his ability he is recollecting Hitler's own words. I will be continuing to revert your unnecessary changes. It is quite evident that you don't like what is being said and that is why you're making these revisions.Ithinkusergoeshere (talk) 16:24, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

The point was that relying on quotes was neither practical, because of the contradictory nature of so many of Hitler's words and actions. 182.183.20.126 (talk) 03:14, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

The quotes are in no way contradictory and they can be found in a multitude of other sources. You keep coming up with different excuses for your revisions. Your new excuse now is that Speer isn't reliable. If that is the case why didn't you just remove all of the Speer quotes on the page? And not just this one specific one. If the reliability of Speer's quotes were a problem you would have removed all of his quotes on the page but you've only removed these specific quotes from this specific section. Speer has been cited on this page since the beginning of it. It's quite clear that you seem to have a problem with the quotes. Your original edit didn't make any mention of the reliability of Speer but now you are coming up with new excuses for your revisions.

Thank you for outing yourself once again. Ithinkusergoeshere (talk) 08:13, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

"If that is the case why didn't you just remove all of the Speer quotes on the page?"

I would have if I had the time to properly streamline the content so as not to rely on excessive qoutes while retaining the essence of Hitler's views. But that is the purpose of Misplaced Pages. Its a collaborative process.

Its a simple WP:Concise way of editing the content adhering to WP:QUOTE yet you just desire to give unwarranted WP:UNDUEWEIGHT to relying on direct extended quotes that just takes considerable space. 182.183.20.126 (talk) 10:21, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

On an important note, the excluded quote redundantly echoes Hitler's admiration for the militaristic aspects of Islam and its forceful expansion themes already addressed in preceding sections of the content. Therefore, the condensed content I proposed can be entirely omitted, as it is essentially repetition. 182.183.20.126 (talk) 10:39, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

@Bishonen Uhh actually me posting the section in your talk page was kinda asking a WP:Third opinion. 182.183.20.126 (talk) 12:08, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Right, but if you post it at WP:Third opinion, you will hopefully get somebody (or several people) more knowledgeable about the subject than me. Bishonen | tålk 12:12, 27 November 2023 (UTC).

No you wouldn't have, because as I said previously we've already established that you don't have a problem with any of the other Speer quotes on the page apart from the ones to do with Islam. And here we go, once again you're coming up with a new excuse for your revision, now it's because of repetition. The specific quotes that you removed are not quoted anywhere else on the page.

I'm going to quote you here: 'Also streamlining a piece of quote does not merit that every other also needs the same treatment, although it definitely could use some. I'll leave that to another editor.'.

I think the solution is simple, you can edit all of them or you can leave them how they all are. Looking at your edit history it is quite clear why you have a problem with the specific quotes regarding Islam and none of the other ones.

Every single reply you offer a new excuse for your revisions. If you wish to make any further posts regarding third party opinions, I would be happy to reply and input, but until then you keep making it abundantly clear that your revisions are unnecessary.

Ithinkusergoeshere (talk) 20:56, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

You have little to no understanding of Misplaced Pages policies and its conventions. Read what I said above again.

I did not said that the removed quote is mentioned elsewhere, rather I stated that it is essentially repetition as the line: "On the other hand, he also made private and public statements expressing admiration for what he perceived to be the militaristic nature of Islam" as well as "The Mohammedan religion would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?" have already have given more than enough WP:WEIGHT to the idea and clearly demonstrated what Hitler though of the religion.

The ommited unnecessary WP:QUOTE repeats the same thing, which had to be dealth with WP:CONCISE and WP:TDLR. Also coming back to first assertion, I stand by it again that a nazi individual cannot be given too much UNDUE WEIGHT for a 100% WP:Reliable source.

I have demonstrated dozens of necessary reasons. So far, all you have said is basically, "Nah, I like that quote; let it just stay'".

Now kindly stop the WP:BATTLE mentality and stop making a mountain out of a molehill. 182.183.20.126 (talk) 02:40, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

The words of a Nazi can't be trusted, he says this as a multitude of quotes on this page are cited from various different Nazis, your low IQ is showing. You can stop with the projection it has nothing to do with me liking a certain quote, it has to do with you not liking the contents of a certain quote. You said it was a repetitive, you haven't demonstrated any necessary reasons every time you come up with a new different excuse. If his words can't be trusted then why not just remove everything to do with him on the page. You know what I've got a better idea, how about you remove every quote cited from a Nazi on the article. I'm sure you would be in agreeance with that because their words cannot be trusted, right? But that's okay, I know you're not going to do that because as we've already established you only have a problem with this particular quote regarding what he has to say about Islam.

How about you just remove the whole section 'Hitler's contemporaries on his religious beliefs'. As the words of Nazis cannot be trusted. I'm struggling to understand your intellectual level here, there's a reason that the section is called 'Hitler's contemporaries on his religious beliefs' as it deals with what his confidants had to say about his religious beliefs. If you agree and we get some more input in here, I'm sure that we can just remove the whole section. As according to you nothing in there can be trusted. I'm sure you don't have any problem with that, right? Ithinkusergoeshere (talk) 03:10, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Again, please be more familiar with Misplaced Pages's policies and its conventions. Even if the aforementioned individual be taken as a 100% reliable source, the content still needed trimming and condensation. And it still does, but like I have reiterated before that Misplaced Pages is a collaborative process. If I address one aspect on the page, it doesn't automatically mean I'm obligated to universally correct the entire page.

Also kindly stop with constant personal attacks such as "your low IQ is showing" and "for outing yourself" and please read up on WP:GOODFAITH. 182.183.20.126 (talk) 03:23, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Calling other editors low IQ like you did above and here is a personal attack. --WikiLinuz (talk) 05:58, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Sources?

what're the sources for the claim Hitler wasn't Christian? The article just says "some historians", but who specifically?

What's the source that he was excommunicated? 4.26.26.18 (talk) 22:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

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