Talk:Folke Bernadotte: Difference between revisions

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	==2003 discussion==
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			== Untitled ==
	<small>
			The article is as usual written by the sort of people Adorno described, for whom to use "I" is an impertinence. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 01:02, 20 August 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	Hi Ruhrjung,

			== Too much genealogy ==
	Re: Your reverting of my change to the ] entry - regarding Lehi.
			There is far too much here on the count's descendants and his wife's family. Far too much to be relevant to his bio. I will be doing a major ] job on that section soon, unless anyone strongly objects and can show me how all that can be relevant here. ] (]) 12:29, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
			:I agree - hatchet away! ] (]) 19:09, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
			::I've transferred the genealogical text (without deleting it) to my sandbox ], to see if I can format it as a table in the way I did with Lennart's genealogy. That doesn't mean the result wouldn't deserve some pruning, but it might be clearer what's what and who's who. By the way, I collapsed (and shrunk) the family table at ], combining it with the collapsed ahnentafel. It should make the stubby thinness of the other material more apparent. ] (]) 21:25, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
			::: Good work! ] (]) 22:47, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::: I finished the change for Folke, but it would be useful for others to check it over for errors, omissions, misunderstandings, inconsistencies and redundancies, some of which are inevitable. See ]. The treatment of offspring at the equivalent articles at Wikiswedia is very brief, although that shouldn't be the limiting factor here. ] (]) 07:31, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::: Very good work. ] (]) 08:35, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			We have still not landed anywhere near normalcy in this regard. Now, his sons have a special hidden info box, where again, all kinds of irrelevant info has been added about grandchildren etc. Names are bolded all over as if these people's names are more important than Bernadotte's biographical accomplishments. His extramarital daughter is not in the box, so now she is visible as a child of his but the others aren't visible unless a box is specially opened. Very screwy if you ask me. ] (]) 12:49, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
			:{{done}} as well as I had time for right now. ] (]) 13:05, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

			== Bernadotte talking to Australian PoW's.==
	Contrary to what you say, Lehi being a terror organization is ''very much'' disputed. Most (or at least many) Israelis (myself included) do not consider Lehi to be a terrorist organization.
			Pardon my ignorance, but in relation to the picture of Bernadotte talking to Australian PoW's... Australia had no army personnel in Europe during WWII - but rather RAAF personnel; the slouch hats hint at these men being in the army.
	Lehi never targeted innocent civillians in attempt to terrorize them. All of Lehi's attacks were against military or government targets (including high-ranked officials such as Bernadotte).
			Yeah, here are tildes, showing the post is my own ] (]) 23:54, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
	This is ''very different'' than what "proper" terrorist organizations do - attacking random civilian targets such as busses or airplanes.
			:You might be right, but can you just provide with a reliable sourse, just to be on a safe side.--<span style="font-family: tahoma;"> ] ]</span> 16:07, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
			:: Australian POWs were taken to Germany from North Africa and other places. There is . ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 07:01, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

			== Rescue in late states ==
	Avraham Stern's memorial day is attended every year by Israeli political and government officials. Given Israel's effort to gain international support for its ongoing war against terrorism of all kinds, you wouldn't expect Israeli leaders to associate themselves with the memory of someone who led a terrorist organization. Indeed they don't - like me they believe that Lehi, while sometimes using extreme measures, was ''not'' a terrorist organization.

			Perhaps the Rescuing POW's in the late stages of WW II could be called a rescue ???
	I'm not really trying to convince you that Lehi was not a terrorist organization (you are entitled to your own opinion on that) - only that the issue is disputed. Since it is indeed so, the proper place to discuss it is on the ] page - rather than have is stated on every page which mentions Lehi.
			Also, the article doesn't make it clear its a late stages of the war thing.. He didn't do ANY rescues in 1942 or 1943... It doesn't say that his involvement in negotiating surrender was ended by the end of the war, the Allies military invasion of Berlin..

			It all seems weasily at present, as if to exagerate his value.. "Look, its a man who can negotiate with the Nazi's ... " But only when the nazis were looking at how to die gracefully.
	] 21:17 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)

	As Folke Bernadotte ''not'' was in Jerusalem in the capacity as an officer of any Government or conquering Power, or something similar, but as a ''mediator'' - and as he was not there as an officer of anything, except the United Nations - I have some problems to understand you, and if I remember correctly also David Ben Gurion would have had so.

			] (]) 04:04, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
	I mean: The wording as it stands there is far more NPOV than many thinkable alternatives, and by moving away from the NPOV-version, you invite to unwished changes, which beside diminishing the general value and credibility of wikipedia articles also will call for booring reverting. The subject of the article is Folke Bernadotte, and it can't be assumed that readers follow links. What's relevant here is the reasons behind the assassination, and there maybe the nature of the assassains is of some interest?

			== From the Britannica Reference Suite 2010 article on Folke Bernadotte ==
	Just start with the accusations against Bernadotte for Nazi-collaboration and spying for the British, and I think you get the picture. See for instance http://www.lysator.liu.se/nordic/div/folke.html

	best regards!<br>
	-- ] 22:49 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)

			"Bernadotte (af Wisborg), Folke, Greve (count)." Encyclopædia Britannica. Encyclopaedia Britannica Ultimate Reference Suite. Chicago: Encyclopædia Britannica, 2010:
	There is no disagreement on the facts: Bernadotte was in Jerusalem as a mediator on behalf of the UN. As such, he had a potential influence on the future of the young state of Israel. Some people believed then (maybe correctly, maybe not) that this influence was dangerous, perhaps even destructive - and concluded that assassinating Bernadotte would eliminate this danger. This was the reason behind the assassination - not the fact that Lehi was a "terrorist organization".

			"Appointed mediator in Palestine by the UN Security Council on May 20, 1948, Bernadotte obtained the grudging acceptance by the Arab states and Israel of a UN cease-fire order, effective June 11. He soon made enemies by his proposal that Arab refugees be allowed to return to their homes in what had become the State of Israel. After a number of threats against his life, he and André-Pierre Serot, a French air force colonel and UN observer, were murdered by members of the Jewish extremist Stern Gang. Bernadotte's efforts laid the foundation for both the United Nations Truce Supervision Organization, which monitors cease-fires and assists peacekeeping operations in the region, and the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees, which was created to provide relief services for Palestinians who lost their homes and means of livelihood following the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948."
	As I see it, political assasination is not a form of terrorism. If it were, we would have to come up with a different word for what I see too often on the streets of the city where I live - the mass murdering of random, innocent, men, women and children going about their everyday business. (For a few recent examples see ]).
	I'm not saying political assassination is a good thing, or a legitimate thing, or a morally justifiable thing. I'm just saying it is different from terrorism.

	When you say "I have some problems to understand you" do you mean that my English is not good enough to understand (if this is the case, I apologize) - or do you really mean that you have problems ''agreeing'' with me?

			(Just in case anyone's interested:
	Ben-Gurion condemned the assassination of Bernadotte. He might have even called it an act of terrorism. This does not prove anything. Ben-Gurion was a politician, and he frequently said (and did) things which were contraversial. Israelis have disagreements among themselves, as I'm sure Swedes sometimes have too.

	Why is "The Jewish terrorist organization Lehi" more NPOV than "the Jewish organization Lehi"? The latter is completely neutral - it contains nothing disputed. How can you say it's non-NPOV? How does it diminish the credibility of the WikiPedia? If killing Bernadotte was a bad thing to do, and it was done by Lehi, than the reader can conclude by his own that "Lehi was bad". You don't have to shove this conclusion down his throat by adding the word "terrorist". If the reader is interested in forming an opinion on Lehi based on additional facts, he can follow the link. Misplaced Pages should provide the facts - not make moral judgements. That's what NPOV is all about as I understand it.

			"Stern Gang." Encyclopædia Britannica. Encyclopaedia Britannica Ultimate Reference Suite. Chicago: Encyclopædia Britannica, 2010:
	As a final thought - just consider what would happen if I searched for all mentions of the PLO in the WikiPedia, and added the words "terrorist organization" before each of them. If you consider Lehi to be terrorist - you must do so for the PLO as well. But I do not think it would be constructive
	to state this every time the PLO is mentioned.

			also called Stern Group , or Lehi , formally Loḥamei Ḥerut Yisraʾel (Hebrew: “Fighters for the Freedom of Israel”)
	Regards,

			Zionist extremist organization in Palestine, founded in 1940 by Avraham Stern (1907–42) after a split in the right-wing underground movement, Irgun Zvai Leumi)
	] 08:49 28 Jun 2003 (UTC)

			<span style="font-family: Perpetua, serif; font-size:120%">    ←  ]  </span> 16:40, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

			== maybe you could help me re the saving of my mother from aushwitz ==
	Let's start with the ''understanding:''<br>
	I am not conciously provocative, and I meant litterally that I didn't/don't understand how you think, although this is improved now. I also guess that both of us use English as a foreign language.

			Hi
	Secondly:<br>
	At least in "my" part of the world, PLO is a notorious terror organization. (Particularly in Germany.) LVI/STERN/LEVI is however not known, why I believe there is a need to characterize the group. The NPOV lies, according to my view, in chosing a term which is sufficiently descriptive for such readers who, if promted to edit, would tend to stress the relations to IDF and Israel's state leaders (and their indirect or direct responsibility), and at the same time (on the other hand) sufficiently distinct not to throw blame on the Jewry or Israel collectively. This I feel you do by characterizing the group as plainly "Jewish", and I believe your wording here invites to further editing.

			My name is michael roth and my late step mother told me of the way she was saved during from exterminatiion in aushwitz before the end of the war
	Finally,<br>
	I believe in keeping to the definitions valid before the ] in ]. The term "terrorism" has since then become much more used, and its usage has also become much more questioned. I believe this process is not yet ripe, why I think seriously intended texts must be ] in their wording. Everyone knows that terrorists usually are freedom-fighters for someone else. That's trivial. However, if not as an act of terrorism (as the word was used before ]), how would you characterize the assassination of a benevolent '''mediator from a neutral country''', without any other power than that of proposing compromises? It was rather others than the victim who were targets of a intended psychological impact. "Political violence" against someone without political power, what's that if not ...terrorism?

			my understanbding is that Himmler did a deal with Count Folke Bernadotte where a thousnad jewsih lives were traded for 1000 swedish trucks
	-- ] 13:50 29 Jun 2003 (UTC)

			My step mother told me one day she was called to roll call and she was loaded into a convoy which was straffed either bty the american or british airforces , many of the prisoners were killed in ths raid but she arrived in denmark and was transported to sweden
	Thank you for your detailed replies, Ruhrjung. I find this to be an interesting discussion, and I hope you feel the same. I'm sorry if I was somewhat aggressive in my previous posts. I sincerely wasn't sure what you meant when you said you had problems understanding me. I'm glad we cleared this out.

			Maybe you can direct me to some hsitorical records of this event
	I now understand better your reasons for wanting to label Lehi as a "terrorist organization" - you do not want people to think it represented all (or most) Jews.
	I'd like to suggest the following alternative wording: "the Jewish ''extrimist'' Lehi organization" (or perhaps, use ''radical'' instead of ''extrimist'').
	This wording makes it clear that Lehi represented only a small part of the Jews (or Zionists) - which is an undisputed fact - without using the term "terrorist", which, as you said yourself, does not have a clear, agreed-upon, definition.

			if you cn assist i would be most appreciative
	I hope you will find my suggestion reasonable. If you do, I would appreciate it if you went ahead and implemented it (in that case, there is no need to answer my note, unless you want to, of course). If you do not agree to the suggestion, please explain why.

			my email address is michael.roth@bigpond.com
	You say the PLO is commonly known to be a terrorist organization. Just as an experiment, I'm going to edit the PLO page to say that. I would bet you 10 WikiMoneys that within 24 hours my change will be reverted on the grounds of being non-NPOV (except I don't have any WikiMoney - so let's not make this an actual bet :-)

			thank you <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 06:35, 3 December 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	I disagree with you regarding the motives of the Bernadotte assassination. You say he was "without any other power than that of proposing compromises". I think this power, when backed by an organization such as the UN (which was perhaps at the peak of its strength at that time), is not something to be taken lightly. Bernadotte was promoting a plan which, in some aspects, was much worse for Israel than the 1947 partition plan (which was pretty bad as it was). Mediators often do much more than "propose" plans. If they are backed by a strong force, they often have the power to ''impose'' their plans (See, for example, the US ] these days). From what I know, the reason behind the assassination of Bernadotte was to make sure his plan never became a reality. I disagree that it was done in an attempt to terrorize anyone else.
			==Extended family charts==
			Biographical articles about notable persons are supposed to be about the person himself. They are not about his ancestors or his wife's ancestors. I deleted the unsourced material that was taking up an ''undue'' amount of space in this article. Even it was sourced, it would not be appropriate here.--] (]) 12:47, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
			:Dear Gilabrand/Geewhiz: While you were writing this I was writing to you. I have seen to it that the excessive genealogy once in this article (and many others) has been edited and reduced considerably. So I fully agree with your edit summary comment. But isn't it customary to mention the children of a person with a WP biography? --] (]) 12:54, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
			::Yes, of course. Children and maybe a famous relative or two is fine. It was just this huge referenceless section that caught my eye. Please feel free to add whatever material you feel is relevant and not excessive. Best--] (]) 13:07, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
			:::{{done}}. ] (]) 17:45, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

			== notes on two sources ==
	The term "terrorism" was used (here in Israel, at least) to describe random acts of violence against civillians (the kind I mentioned in my previous note) well before the September 11th attack. For me, at least, this definition was not changed by that attack.

			"The Secret War on the Jews", by Aarons and Loftus is a standard sort of conspiracy tract. Its main "revelation" is that the British government has a secret department which keeps tabs on every Jew in the world. Almost every factual claim it makes about Bernadotte is wrong. Believe it at your peril. The book "Nazi millionaires" claims to have new evidence on Bernadotte but it is only that he had a personal relationship with the ]. This is old news, read about it already at ]. Without Schellenberg's support, the White Buses would not have happened and thousands would have died. Later Schellenberg tried to negotiate a German surrender using Bernadotte as a reluctant messenger (this should be in the article, though with a proper source). Calling this "Nazi collaboration" on Bernadotte's part is somewhat disgusting. Neither book comes close to satisfying ]. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 11:02, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
	As for what I would call the Bernadotte assassination - I would simply call it an "assassination". This is an accurate, undisputed term, which does not entail any assumptions about the motives of its executors.

			== External links modified ==
	Thank you for your attention,

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	] 18:46 29 Jun 2003 (UTC)

			I have just added archive links to {{plural:2\|one external link\|2 external links}} on ]. Please take a moment to review . If necessary, add {{tlx\|cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{tlx\|nobots\|deny{{=}}InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
	Well,<br>
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20071226031325/http://domino.un.org:80/unispal.nsf/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/ab14d4aafc4e1bb985256204004f55fa!OpenDocument&Highlight=0,Bernadotte,progress to http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/ab14d4aafc4e1bb985256204004f55fa!OpenDocument&Highlight=0,Bernadotte,progress
	I'm afraid we have some '''serious''' divergences regarding the concepts of ''mediating'' and ''neutrality''. But I don't think there is reason to discuss that here-and-now. I've been sufficiently much in Israel to know what in '''my''' eyes looks like a conception of The-World-Aginst-Us. No harm intended!
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090118072030/http://domino.un.org:80/UNISPAL.NSF/d744b47860e5c97e85256c40005d01d6/48c06a0c497863f1852560c2005beb32!OpenDocument to http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/d744b47860e5c97e85256c40005d01d6/48c06a0c497863f1852560c2005beb32!OpenDocument

			When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' to let others know.
	We also stress the components of '''terrorism''' differently, as you stress ''civilian'' victims, and I stress ''fear'' in the non-victims, more than the other.

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	But that's things we have to live with.

			Cheers. —]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS">]:Online</sub></small> 00:52, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
	I've made a change which I hope is in your liking. I persist, as you see, in the wish to denominate the Stern gang as ] instead of ]s, which they of course also are...

			== External links modified ==
	-- ] 19:23 29 Jun 2003 (UTC)

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	Thank you. I'm happy that we reached an agreed solution despite our outstanding disagreements. I have no problem, of course, with the description of Lehi as "Zionist".

			I have just modified 2 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	Also, my change on the ] page was already reverted, just as I expected.
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100605160815/http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/AB14D4AAFC4E1BB985256204004F55FA to http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/AB14D4AAFC4E1BB985256204004F55FA
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	Was nice talking to you,

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false\|needhelp=}}
	-- ] 20:35 29 Jun 2003 (UTC)

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 09:32, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
	What about calling it a "political assassination", as for the debate on terrorist group or not these might help: American definition - "The calculated use of violence or threat of violence to attain goals that are political, religious or ideological in nature...through intimidation, coercion or instilling fear." British definition - "Terrorism is the use, or threat, of action which is violent, damaging or disrupting, and is intended to influence the government or intimidate the public and is for the purpose of advancing a political, religious or ideological cause." -- ] 02:38, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

			== Avraham Steinberg ==
	</small>
	----
	<small>
	For what it's worth in my opinion Bernadotte would have been alot fairer to the Arabs then Lehi would have ever been capable of - Jewish extremists are in the same league as Christian extremists or Islamic extremists - i feel extremists of any kind aren't good for anybody.

			The last of Bernadotte's assassins, Avraham Steinberg (nicknamed 'Gingi') died this month aged 97. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 08:52, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
	Just my two .002

			== External links modified ==
	] 18:31, Aug 20, 2003 (UTC)

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	==About the murder of Bernadotte==

			I have just modified 4 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	I guess the statement from the UN security council says it all: "a cowardly act which appears to have been committed by a criminal group of terrorists in Jerusalem while the United Nations representative was fulfilling his peace-seeking mission in the Holy Land"
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120120090933/http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2751/is_n40/ai_17100953/ to http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2751/is_n40/ai_17100953
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	One should remember that the council's statement could have been vetoed by the US, Israels best friend, and as the US choose not to one may take it as the view the international community has on the murder of Bernadotte. That someone wants to dispute that is as it always is with criminals, the law it not for me. ] 11:47, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

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	:At the time, I don't know if the US and Israel were necessarily that close. As I remember, the USSR was Israel's main supporter in the early days. But, yeah. Why Bernadotte? Of all people. --] 06:48, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 21:59, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
	== Felix Kersten and the forged letter ==

			== External links modified ==
	I deleted this:
	: However, it's been claimed that Bernadotte refused to rescue Jews, and the Jews that were included were there in spite of his refusal and as a result of pressure from ] and Himmler's doctor ] <nowiki><ref> The Kersten memoirs, 1940-1945, (1956); Hugh Trevor-Roper, The Last Days of Hitler (1971); Baruch Nadal, Bernadotte's murder (1968); Ofer Regev, Prince Of Jerusalem (2006); </ref></nowiki>
	This is based on a story which was long ago debunked. Felix Kersten, who was Himmler's masseur, was a notorious conman. Amongst other things, he convinced Belgium to award him a medal for foiling a Nazi plan to deport the entire population of Belgium when in fact there had never been such a plan. (I might have misremembered the details of that incident slightly.) After the war he produced a letter appearing to have been written by Bernadotte. It contained things like "I do not want to take any Jews." and "Your 'V' weapon is not hitting London well. I leave you a sketch with English military targets." Several historians, including Hugh Trevor Roper (later taken in by the "Hitler Diaries"), were convinced that the letter was genuine. However, when the letter was examined by the forensic division of Scotland Yard they found that it was typed on Kersten's own typewriter. The story of this letter can be found in detail in A. Ilan, Bernadotte in Palestine, 1948 (London: Macmillan, 1989). --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 10:34, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	:this fact was reaffrimed later. If you think it's debunked, you can add your info on the matter. It's sourced material that cite numerous facts on the issue, much more than what you seem to think. you can't blank out things you don't like. ] 03:59, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

			I have just modified 3 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	::Yeah, nice try... Here is an infinitely more reputable source than Himmler's masseur who refers to such claims as "obvious lies" and backs up the claim with facts from the World Jewish Congress . So the scurrilous lies are out and any attempts to return them will be treated as vandalism. --] 08:42, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110103072620/http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/A9A8DA193BD46C54852560E50060C6FD to http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/A9A8DA193BD46C54852560E50060C6FD
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	:::this is not even a source. Why don't you read the book first ? Now to clarify this business.
	The information about the rescue missions of Bernadotte is based only entirely '''after his own books''' which came out immediately after the war and about witnesses who saw him standing in their way to the rescue. Many scholars have determined that Berndaotte objected to the rescue of Jews and has attempted to convince Himmler not to include Jews among those waiting to be resecued. In the end he did rescue Jews among the rescues (that's why your "quote" is irrelevant) but only because of Himmler's pressure. This is why he can't possibly be in the same list of "people who rescued Jews" but rather "people who were forced to rescue Jews". This is why Yad Vashem also didn't recognise his "rescue" and this fact is sourced with numerous scholars in the article. ] 08:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false\|needhelp=}}
	::::By "scholars", do you mean "people with an axe to grind against Bernadotte"? Try finding some actual, reputable sources to back up this preposterous claim. Until then, it is out. --] 09:56, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 08:01, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
	::::The sources cited are all reputable. Try finding a source contradicting these books perhaps. Not out at all. ] 09:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

			== External links modified ==
	::::: Amitzur Ilan is a very respected historian, and I cited his book already. If you take time to look at it, you will see how he debunks Trevor Roper's position on this very thoroughly. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 11:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	:::::: You don't seem to understand the concept of ] and no ]. If you have sources that contradict other sources, you can add them. '''You can not blank''' out material. Moreover, the '''lastest research''' is Ofer Regev's which prove that Bernadotte was forced to take the Jews, and debunks your theory completely. That's a book from this year. ] 11:28, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

			I have just modified one external link on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	:::::::: I think you need to think a little harder about the idea of making a prima facie case for your claim. The opinions of a handful of idealogues doesn't pass the laugh test. You can't take an extreme view posited by a couple of kooks and then demand that other people debunk it. Lots of people believe that the moon landings never happened, but you won't see anything in the ] article about these fringe views. If you want to start a separate page on ] surrounding Bernadotte, then feel free to do so. But this stuff has no place in the main article. --] 11:35, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160416175807/http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f83b1c6155c80e80.html to https://images.google.com/hosted/life/f83b1c6155c80e80.html

			When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
	:::::I don't see how you can call the memoirs of one of Himmler's lackeys (and an established liar) "reputable" as a source. --] 10:06, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false\|needhelp=}}
	:::::3 differnet scholars have established this fact using different evidence, see below. quoting Zero's rhetorics is also not very useful, especially now that you violated ]. ] 10:40, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 04:25, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
	:::::::I can only assume that your definition of "scholar" is different from everyone else's if you seriously consider Kersten, Nadal and Regev to be "scholars". --] 10:48, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

			There is an error in the Related Articles section. "Levi" should be "Lehi". <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 10:28, 10 June 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:: Kersten and Bernadotte had a very public fight over who did what during the war. Kersten became Bernadotte's enemy and that's when he started to make vicious claims about Bernadotte. He wasn't an independent source. It is noteworthy that even those historians who are sympathetic towards Kersten make a point of stating that he was very unreliable as a witness and everything he said needed to be carefully checked. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 11:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
			: I can't find it. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 11:27, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

			I should have pointed that I see the "Levi" error in the mobile version. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:42, 10 June 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	== numerous evidence on the issue ==

			The "Levi" error seems to originate from https://m.wikidata.org/Q2904138. I have just fixed it there. I don't see the change reflected in this page, yet. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 20:21, 10 June 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	The Himmler doctor's claims are only one of a myriad of evidence on the issue. For example, Regev in his recent book (page 184) brings a quote of a recorded interview with Ian Holm , the Danish refugee minister. This also confirms the allegations towards Bernadotte which were elaborated in the previous books cited. ] 09:02, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

			Now it is correct, "Lehi". <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 13:40, 11 June 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	::Ian Holm?! The British actor? --] 10:50, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

			== Correction to Bernadotte travel and negotiation on release of French women, 1945 ==
	:::valueable comment. what's with the spacing ? these are all serious specialists on the issue. Read Trevor-Roper. ] 11:10, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

			I do not have enough edits to qualify to make corrections for this article. Nevertheless, I wish to point one problem (completely unrelated to the Arab-Israeli issue) that needs correction.
	::::I'm just wondering why you think a British actor was the Danish Immigration Minister. Given Kersten's antipathy towards Bernadotte and his "arm's-length" relationship with reality, I'm also wondering why you think he is a valid source. Though I see you've dropped the fantasy that these men are "scholars". --] 11:29, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

			Bernadotte’s write-up contains this paragraph:
	:::::I hope when you come back from your ban, your edits will be more frutiful. ] 11:59, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

			“Bernadotte recounted the White Buses mission in his book The End. My Humanitarian Negotiations in Germany in 1945 and Their Political Consequences, published on June 15, 1945 in Swedish. In the book, Bernadotte recounts his negotiations with Himmler and others, and his experience at the Ravensbrück concentration camp.”
	:::::::From your point of view, I doubt you will see them that way. But that's just proof that I'm doing the right thing. I'm still waiting for you to explain Ian Holm's relevance to this issue though. ;-> --] 09:15, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

			The first problem is the book title. The one given is correct-- but only for the original Swedish title translated into English. When it was published in English and other languages the title was changed and is cited further down as:
	I came here to do some research on UN personnel who were killed trying to bring peace to troubled region and I have to say Amoruso, your being even ruder and more arrogtant than Norman. And your wrong about Bernadotte. He was a good man who gladly saved lots of Jewish people and was trying to save lots more but was killed for doing it. Shame on you for repeating lies about him. What are you related to one of those Bernadotte haters? --] 12:16, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
	:that's helpful. ], ]. ] 12:20, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

			Bernadotte, Folke (1945). The Curtain Falls. Translated by Count Eric Lewenhaupt. New York: A. A. Knopf. LCCN 45008956. (Swedish title: Slutet.)
	::I'll take arrogant over stupid any day. --] 09:15, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

			Here’s the problem: If you search for a copy of “The End: My Negotiations et al” you cannot find it except in the Library of Congress. You can’t buy it anywhere; no library can lend you a copy. It more or less doesn’t exist. That’s because the tile was changed to the second version, which are variations based on “The Curtain Falls.” The write-up needs to make clear that “The End” is “The Curtain Falls.” It does not currently do this in at least two places. This must be fixed and made clear. Also, the full title of the book needs to be given: It is “The Curtain Falls: The Last Days of the Third Reich.” You can find it many places, such as Amazon, https://www.amazon.com/Curtain-Falls-Last-Third-Reich-ebook/dp/B01BXA10OK/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=the+curtain+falls&qid=1596123477&s=books&sr=1-6
	:::You're also in violation of ]. Hope you're not looking for another ban, the 7th. ] 09:31, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

			Here is the second problem: The Misplaced Pages write-up quoted above says “...and his experience at the Ravensbrück concentration camp.”

			In fact, the book does NOT mention “his experience” at Ravensbruck; there is no indication anywhere in this book that he ever went near the place.
	::::No, actually, I'm not. I was referring to myself - saying that I would rather be arrogant than stupid. I wasn't referring to anyone BUT myself and therefore it wasn't a personal attack. --] 20:53, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

			The first of only two references says this : “He also showed genuine interest in my proposal that the Swedish Red Cross be allowed to remove all French women interned at the Ravensbruck concentration camp. He said that he not only assented to this, but that he also wished us to remove the women of all nationalities, as the camp in question was shortly to be evacuated. I promised him that I would immediately give our detachment orders to this effect.”
	== Protected ==

			The second reference on the very next page says: “I departed for Friedrichsruh immediately after breakfast. After a short visit to our headquarters, where I made arrangements for the removal of the women interned at Ravensbruck, I started for Denmark to be precise, for the small town of Padborg, just north of the Danish-German frontier. There I had the opportunity of inspecting the excellent arrangements made by the Danish Red Cross and the Danish authorities for the reception and quartering of prisoners before they were removed to other places in Denmark.”
	I've protected this page, and intend to unprotect it in 24 hours. Please see my comments on ]. I think it would be best to leave this article be for a short time, and resume editing when cooler heads may prevail. Thanks -- ]<small>]</small> 11:55, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

			It very clearly says he “made arrangements for” the transfer, and that he immediately left to go not to Ravensbruck but to Padborg.
	I agree with the decision to protect but it doesn't seem appropriate to protect a version arrived at through 3rr violations (esp. when sourced material was removed during the course of that violation.) I have restored the article to its pre-3rr version while maintaining the protection. ] ] ] 20:04, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

			There is no other reference to Ravensbruck. A further problem is the date of this conversation, which appears to be April 21 or April 22, 1945. In fact, the first evacuation of French women from Ravensbruck occurred on April 8, and is amply documented in many sources, including the well-documented fact they were greeted at Gare de Lyon by Gen. de Gaulle, on April 22 (and it took the women 16 days to get there). Other women -- the now famous “Lilacs,” Polish Catholics -- were soon evacuated, before August 22. Then, approximately 20,000 to 25,000 other women were sent on a death march across Germany (most did not survive). The Russians arrived at and occupied Ravensbruck on April 30, 1945, when only about 4,000 were left inside.

			] (]) 18:11, 29 July 2021 (UTC) Bill Swanson
	::If you'd bothered to read the talk page, you'd have seen that the sources for the material in question are academically worthless. If you're not going to contribute positively, I would suggest you not contribute at all. --] 05:51, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

			: Thank you for your comments. Regarding the book, we permit non-English sources and there is no rule again citing the original Swedish edition. On the other hand, English sources of equal reliability are preferred, so the best outcome will be to name and cite the English edition. I believe I have electronic access and I'll work on this. (As an aside, you are incorrect that the original title was used only in Swedish. I located German, Finnish, Danish, Italian, French, Spanish and Esperanto editions using the original title in translation.) ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 03:44, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
	:::Will you apply that principle to ''everyone'' who's editing this page? ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 05:58, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

			== UN mediator ==
	::::Sure, are you volunteering to give us an example of abstention? I can't think of any article that wouldn't be better for you not editing it. --] 09:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

			The phrasing "unilateral Israeli Declaration of Independence" is inappropriate. The declaration was based on the UN resolution 181 (II) and was neither unilateral not multilateral. I suggest the word unilateral be dropped.
	:::Just because a user claimed they're worthless don't make them worthless, it was his personal POV. ] 08:39, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
			] (]) 21:08, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

			:It was unilateral, DoI's typically are (unless you count the backdoor chicanery with Truman who recognized Israel more or less instantaneously). Just search, one can quickly find several sources containing that expression. https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7312/gend15288 for example. ] (]) 21:27, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
	::::Well, since they don't meet ANY standards of scholarship or intellectual integrity, we're all still waiting for you to explain why they should be taken seriously. Sofar, all you have is someone who had a personal beef with Bernadotte and was known to tell extravagant lies, as well as one of the thugs who was responsible for Bernadotte's murder. Can you do better? --] 09:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

			== The issue as to who hired the Lehi assassins ==
	:::::Your allegations are baseless. We have different established scholars and experts on the issue, like explained. ] 09:33, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

			Declassified British document suggests that the Israeli state itself hired the killers.
	::::::Why dont you answer his question, why are you taking such biased material seriously? I think Norman is right and you are wrong. After the prrotect is off I will come back and make sure Kersten material is gone. --] 07:41, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
			British National Archives FO 371/75266 contains a 1949 letter about the then Belgium Consul-General, M. Jean Niewenhuys, detailing a "source, whom I consider to be reliable, has been in secret communication with a certain Czech employee" in the Consulate. According to the source, the assassins were indeed Lehi, but they were working for Israel, not Lehi. "It appeared that the Czech Consul-General had been approached by Mr Shiloah* of the Israeli Foreign Office … about a week before the murder, to arrange Czech visas and air passage for seven Jews in a Czech air line for the late afternoon flight to Prague … Shiloah, acting on behalf of the Israeli Government, was the organiser of the murder.
			Source: https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20221019-did-israel-not-lehi-murder-un-mediator-folke-bernadotte-in-1948/ ] (]) 23:37, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
			: Interesting, but too conjectural for us and a better source is needed. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 01:50, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

			== Pronunciation of Bernadotte ==
	:::::::it is not Kersten material. It is historians and experts Trevor Ruper and Ofer Regev material. Sourced and accurate material like this won't be removed. ] 07:44, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

			Should one say the final 'e', for example? ] (]) 18:51, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
	:::::::::Ofer Regev isn't a "historian" nor is he an "expert", he is simply pushing his own extremist POV. Trevor-Roper's reputation as a historian in the aftermath of the debacle surrounding the Hitler Diaries isn't on very solid ground and there is no indication that he's an expert on Bernadotte. So, unless you can do better than these guys, you'd best give up the fight to have this ludicrous material inserted. --] 20:59, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
			:No. --] (]) 11:19, 8 December 2023 (UTC)--] (]) 11:19, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

			== Misinformation in Introductory Paragraph ==
	::::::::::Actually, they're all in the category of ], ] and ]. Do not blank out sourced material next time. ] 06:45, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

			The opening paragraph alone contains confusing wording and outright misinformation. The Theresienstadt ghetto ONLY held Jewish prisoners. The only available sources cited didn’t support this statement about tens of thousands of non Jewish prisoners being transferred from there. In fact, one of the sources referred to thousands of non-Jews and Jews being taken from Ravensbruck and other camps to other countries.
	::::::::::::You should back up your claim that they're reliable. On what basis do you consider them "reliable". Here's a hint, just because they say things that you are pre-disposed to agree with, that doesn't make them "reliable". --] 06:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

			If non-Jews were taken to Theresienstadt for their release, this should be made clear, as they had not prisoners there. I didn’t see evidence to support that, though.
	::::::::::::Your wrong. THey're not allowed. Read those things. --] 23:31, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

			I haven’t read the rest of the article, but the fact that the opening paragraph has completely incorrect information indicates that someone should more throughly vet this article.
	== Ofer Regev, Prince of Jerusalem ==

			It is probably for the best that it is locked, but those allowed to edit such articles need to be more vigilant, as it is unfortunately yet another Misplaced Pages piece that misrepresents the Holocaust in favor of those who downplay it, erasing the reality that an entire camp and ghetto was made exclusively for the Jews. Propaganda claimed “Hitler gave the Jews a city,” Theresienstadt. ] (]) 01:13, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
	The sourced material which was deleted and will return : Ofer Regev, pages 138-165, 184, numerous evidence presented about the issue. Will be re-introduced. ] 12:01, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

			:Now that I think about it, the phrasing also suggests that TENS OF THOUSANDS of non Jews were prisoner there, alongside a few hundred Jews. Which comes across as a more purposeful distortion of the Holocaust than I had thought. ] (]) 01:26, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
	: Ofer Regev is a writer of popular books and not a historian. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 14:30, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
			:: Your comments would be more useful if you addressed the sources and/or provided sources for your positions. Everything we put into the article has to be based on published sources. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 03:35, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

	::Ofer Regev is an historian who added further evidence to the already established facts laid by Trevor Ruper and Baruch Nadal. ] 14:34, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

	::: And Baruch Nadel was a member of Lehi who claimed to have organized the killing of Bernadotte (Cary Stranger, p271). Like that really makes him an unbiased source on Bernadotte! When we start writing articles on someone based on claims by their murderers, that is when Misplaced Pages is dead. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 15:23, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
	::::what the is Cary Stranger. Anyway, Regev approved Trevor Ruper version and added a LOT of evidence. ] 15:24, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

	== NPOV editing ==

	NPOV editing does not mean removing cited material that you disagree with. It means finding citations that refute the statement and ADDING them to the article. People can then read the claims, read the citations and come to their own conclusions. If you think a claim is from bad scholarship, find a citation that says as much and add that as well. It is not the job of wikipedia editors to decide which claim is true. The discussion should be about how much weight the claims and counter claims should get. Even discussions about weight should be determined by finding citations. Both sides of this debate should be working together to present an well-balanced presentation of the controversy. If you think that you know the "truth" you probably should be putting your efforts elsewhere. -- ] 08:12, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
	:well said, this is what I was aiming at, as I didn't mind the addition of more material on the subject, but rather the blanking of the existant material. ] 08:16, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

	::Interesting position. Some contributor adds a statement

	::"However, it's been claimed that Bernadotte refused to rescue Jews, and the Jews that were included were there in spite of his refusal and as a result of pressure from Himmler and Himmler's doctor Felix Kersten"

	::without mentioning that the source cited, Felix Kersten, is generally considered a not very reliable source, and without listing other sources for the statement (it is references to two other books, but no information regarding what those books says about where the claim comes from). And then the proof is on the rest of us. Again, interesting position - but not something that would raise the average readers respect for Misplaced Pages I guess.

	::To be very clear, I have not seen any statement from reliable sources that confirms what is claimed regarding Bernadotte. If it can be verified - we should of course have it in the article, but as far as I can see we have some mileage before that. ] 07:00, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

	:::I would be adding direct quotes from Regev soon. The primary evidence on the issue is not based on Kersten but at more parties involved. ] 07:18, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

	:::I completely agree with the comments above made by Ulflarsen.] 20:07, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

	== Unprotected ==

	Article unprotected now -- ] 05:58, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

	== Regarding Zero's blanking ==

	You're only allowed to add material if you think it's relevant. Your mass blanking of sourced material is not allowed. If you later claim that it's vandalism to restore the version before your blanking that's more bad faith from your part. Your claims that the information was not according to the sources is false. ] 23:19, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

	: I didn't blank anything. I replaced poor material by good stuff copied directly from the documents themselves. And you obviously never looked at Bernadotte's "diary". --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 02:18, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

	::Obviously i did and i quoted what was said in it. you can not blank what you don't like. these are all facts. ] 02:22, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

	::: So the passage "When proposing an offer..." was quoted from the source you gave was it? --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 08:06, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

	Seems user Zero has done a good job showing that the accusations regarding Bernadotte are just that, accusations, while you have not been able to come up with reliable sources. Kersten is not reliable and has been shown to falsify documents, Trevor-Roper relied on the former - and the last two seems to have a axe to grind with Bernadotte due to his position as UN mediator in Palestine. So I suggest you revert back, and I also suggest you remove the similar accusations from the article about the ]. ] 05:33, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

	:I'm afraid that's Zero and apparently your POV and OR. Misplaced Pages is about citing ] and that's exactly what was done. I do intend to quote directly from Regev's book - he has evidence much different to Kersten from other indepedent sources - soon when I get the book to my hands again. Removing them is vandalism. ] 05:57, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

	::You have stated that you will quote from the book for some two weeks now, without actually doing it. I suggest you remove the allegations regarding Bernadotte until you can show proof here that he indeed was against taking jews with the White buses.
	:::Sorry, I didn't have time but I'll get the book this week. I don't have to cite directly from it of course, I cited the relevant pages. ] 01:10, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

	I think there's something you fail to understand. Saying "seems to have an an axe to grind with bernadotte" or attacking credibility is your ] which is fabricated by Zero0000. Sourced material can not be blanked out just because someone doesn't like it. You can contradict it but you can't blank it out. There's no problem to include Zero's quotations as well on the issue. The problem is when he starts vandalising the page enforcing his own ]. Both opinions can be heard, also Kersten and the allegations that he fabricated documents and so on. All this should be addressed. He can't decide for the reader, which is what he consistently did. ] 04:44, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

	:First, I think Zero has done a great job on improving the section on Bernadotte as a UN mediator including adding primary references. Second, Amuroso's accusations on Zero for vandalism is very inappropriate given that Amuroso himself recently blanked the improvements of the above-mentioned section. ] 20:17, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

	== UN mediator ==
	I think the sentence:
	:Bernadotte had a close relationship to British delegates and especially to Abdullah, king of Transjordan.
	is irrelevant in this context (point-by-point lists of the conditions of the proposals) and should be removed from the paragraph. ] 20:27, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
	::well it's obviously relevant in SOME bernadotte context. if you feel it belongs in another paragraph, relocate it... it is there since the original edit, and later blanked out by Zero in his massive edit. ] 10:34, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
	:::OK, I suggest this sentence is then moved to another context, either the "Assassination" section or perhaps a concluding section covering the legacy of Folke Bernadotte. By the way, are you sure this a correct interpretation of the source? It seems strange that Bernadotte would have bluntly admitted that he was biased towards the British and the Jordanians? It should be noted that for diverse political reasons Bernadotte has often been indicted with sometimes quite different and mutually exclusive claims (e.g. biased towards both the Germans and the British, which for obvious reasons seems quite unlikely).
	::::No, of course he doesn't say it. But it's obvious from the text (his meetings), and mention by many scholars who looked at the diary too. It doesn't say he was biased btw, simply that he had a close relationship.] 10:59, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
	I deleted that sentence for a reason. Unlike Amoruso, who seems to be copying citations from an unnamed source in violation of ], I have a copy of this "diary" (actually a journal always intended for publication) of Bernadotte and so can check the claim. Turning to page 164, we find at the top of the page that B got a telegram from Abdullah asking to see him. This was towards the end of the truce in early July. B then went to Amman where "King Abdullah expressed his extreme uneasiness at the prospect of the war breaking out afresh." That's about it. There is nothing here about a close relationship and nothing to suggest more than the relationship one would hope an official mediator to have with the various parties. On other pages B describes similar meetings with Jewish leaders (eg. Shertok on p202, a delegation of rabbis on p142, etc etc). In summary, this sentence is an attack on Bernadotte that is not supported by the source. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 11:38, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
	::Please remain civil and cool. I have the diary too and this does support it. Your interpretation is false, teh very fact he went on private meetings with abdallah more than numerous times proves it. If you want , I can name other scholars who have made same assertion (like Katz). ] 11:57, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
	::: So you copied the quote on page 114 from the diary as you cited, is that right? --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 12:10, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

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Scouting Mid‑importance

	Scouting portal Folke Bernadotte is part of the Scouting WikiProject, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Scouting and Guiding on the Misplaced Pages. This includes but is not limited to boy and girl organizations, WAGGGS and WOSM organizations as well as those not so affiliated, country and region-specific topics, and anything else related to Scouting. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.ScoutingWikipedia:WikiProject ScoutingTemplate:WikiProject ScoutingScouting
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	This article was the project's Portal biography of the month (September 2010).

Biography: Politics and Government / Royalty and Nobility

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Sweden High‑importance

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A fact from this article was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the On this day section on September 17, 2011 and September 17, 2015.

Untitled

The article is as usual written by the sort of people Adorno described, for whom to use "I" is an impertinence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.102.79.50 (talk) 01:02, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Too much genealogy

There is far too much here on the count's descendants and his wife's family. Far too much to be relevant to his bio. I will be doing a major hatchet job on that section soon, unless anyone strongly objects and can show me how all that can be relevant here. SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:29, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree - hatchet away! Wikipeterproject (talk) 19:09, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I've transferred the genealogical text (without deleting it) to my sandbox User:Shakescene/Bernadotte, to see if I can format it as a table in the way I did with Lennart's genealogy. That doesn't mean the result wouldn't deserve some pruning, but it might be clearer what's what and who's who. By the way, I collapsed (and shrunk) the family table at Lennart Bernadotte#Ancestors, wives and children, combining it with the collapsed ahnentafel. It should make the stubby thinness of the other material more apparent. —— Shakescene (talk) 21:25, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Good work! SergeWoodzing (talk) 22:47, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I finished the change for Folke, but it would be useful for others to check it over for errors, omissions, misunderstandings, inconsistencies and redundancies, some of which are inevitable. See Folke Bernadotte#Ancestors, wife and descendants. The treatment of offspring at the equivalent articles at Wikiswedia is very brief, although that shouldn't be the limiting factor here. —— Shakescene (talk) 07:31, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Very good work. SergeWoodzing (talk) 08:35, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

We have still not landed anywhere near normalcy in this regard. Now, his sons have a special hidden info box, where again, all kinds of irrelevant info has been added about grandchildren etc. Names are bolded all over as if these people's names are more important than Bernadotte's biographical accomplishments. His extramarital daughter is not in the box, so now she is visible as a child of his but the others aren't visible unless a box is specially opened. Very screwy if you ask me. SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:49, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Done as well as I had time for right now. SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:05, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Bernadotte talking to Australian PoW's.

Pardon my ignorance, but in relation to the picture of Bernadotte talking to Australian PoW's... Australia had no army personnel in Europe during WWII - but rather RAAF personnel; the slouch hats hint at these men being in the army. Yeah, here are tildes, showing the post is my own 58.164.23.227 (talk) 23:54, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

You might be right, but can you just provide with a reliable sourse, just to be on a safe side.-- Jim Fitzgerald 16:07, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Australian POWs were taken to Germany from North Africa and other places. There is even a book about it. Zero 07:01, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Rescue in late states

Perhaps the Rescuing POW's in the late stages of WW II could be called a rescue ??? Also, the article doesn't make it clear its a late stages of the war thing.. He didn't do ANY rescues in 1942 or 1943... It doesn't say that his involvement in negotiating surrender was ended by the end of the war, the Allies military invasion of Berlin..

It all seems weasily at present, as if to exagerate his value.. "Look, its a man who can negotiate with the Nazi's ... " But only when the nazis were looking at how to die gracefully.

101.174.81.128 (talk) 04:04, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

From the Britannica Reference Suite 2010 article on Folke Bernadotte

"Bernadotte (af Wisborg), Folke, Greve (count)." Encyclopædia Britannica. Encyclopaedia Britannica Ultimate Reference Suite. Chicago: Encyclopædia Britannica, 2010:

"Appointed mediator in Palestine by the UN Security Council on May 20, 1948, Bernadotte obtained the grudging acceptance by the Arab states and Israel of a UN cease-fire order, effective June 11. He soon made enemies by his proposal that Arab refugees be allowed to return to their homes in what had become the State of Israel. After a number of threats against his life, he and André-Pierre Serot, a French air force colonel and UN observer, were murdered by members of the Jewish extremist Stern Gang. Bernadotte's efforts laid the foundation for both the United Nations Truce Supervision Organization, which monitors cease-fires and assists peacekeeping operations in the region, and the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees, which was created to provide relief services for Palestinians who lost their homes and means of livelihood following the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948."

(Just in case anyone's interested:

"Stern Gang." Encyclopædia Britannica. Encyclopaedia Britannica Ultimate Reference Suite. Chicago: Encyclopædia Britannica, 2010:

also called Stern Group , or Lehi , formally Loḥamei Ḥerut Yisraʾel (Hebrew: “Fighters for the Freedom of Israel”)

Zionist extremist organization in Palestine, founded in 1940 by Avraham Stern (1907–42) after a split in the right-wing underground movement, Irgun Zvai Leumi)

← ZScarpia 16:40, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

maybe you could help me re the saving of my mother from aushwitz

My name is michael roth and my late step mother told me of the way she was saved during from exterminatiion in aushwitz before the end of the war

my understanbding is that Himmler did a deal with Count Folke Bernadotte where a thousnad jewsih lives were traded for 1000 swedish trucks

My step mother told me one day she was called to roll call and she was loaded into a convoy which was straffed either bty the american or british airforces , many of the prisoners were killed in ths raid but she arrived in denmark and was transported to sweden

Maybe you can direct me to some hsitorical records of this event

if you cn assist i would be most appreciative

my email address is michael.roth@bigpond.com

thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.180.157.112 (talk) 06:35, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Extended family charts

Biographical articles about notable persons are supposed to be about the person himself. They are not about his ancestors or his wife's ancestors. I deleted the unsourced material that was taking up an undue amount of space in this article. Even it was sourced, it would not be appropriate here.--Geewhiz (talk) 12:47, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Dear Gilabrand/Geewhiz: While you were writing this I was writing to you. I have seen to it that the excessive genealogy once in this article (and many others) has been edited and reduced considerably. So I fully agree with your edit summary comment. But isn't it customary to mention the children of a person with a WP biography? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:54, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, of course. Children and maybe a famous relative or two is fine. It was just this huge referenceless section that caught my eye. Please feel free to add whatever material you feel is relevant and not excessive. Best--Geewhiz (talk) 13:07, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Done. SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:45, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

notes on two sources

"The Secret War on the Jews", by Aarons and Loftus is a standard sort of conspiracy tract. Its main "revelation" is that the British government has a secret department which keeps tabs on every Jew in the world. Almost every factual claim it makes about Bernadotte is wrong. Believe it at your peril. The book "Nazi millionaires" claims to have new evidence on Bernadotte but it is only that he had a personal relationship with the Walter Schellenberg. This is old news, read about it already at White Buses. Without Schellenberg's support, the White Buses would not have happened and thousands would have died. Later Schellenberg tried to negotiate a German surrender using Bernadotte as a reluctant messenger (this should be in the article, though with a proper source). Calling this "Nazi collaboration" on Bernadotte's part is somewhat disgusting. Neither book comes close to satisfying WP:RS. Zero 11:02, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

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Avraham Steinberg

The last of Bernadotte's assassins, Avraham Steinberg (nicknamed 'Gingi') died this month aged 97. Zero 08:52, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

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There is an error in the Related Articles section. "Levi" should be "Lehi". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:A040:199:3133:2833:6642:2104:E4D5 (talk) 10:28, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

I can't find it. Zero 11:27, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

I should have pointed that I see the "Levi" error in the mobile version. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:A040:199:3133:2833:6642:2104:E4D5 (talk) 19:42, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

The "Levi" error seems to originate from https://m.wikidata.org/Q2904138. I have just fixed it there. I don't see the change reflected in this page, yet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:A040:199:3133:2833:6642:2104:E4D5 (talk) 20:21, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Now it is correct, "Lehi". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:A040:199:3133:2833:6642:2104:E4D5 (talk) 13:40, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Correction to Bernadotte travel and negotiation on release of French women, 1945

I do not have enough edits to qualify to make corrections for this article. Nevertheless, I wish to point one problem (completely unrelated to the Arab-Israeli issue) that needs correction.

Bernadotte’s write-up contains this paragraph:

“Bernadotte recounted the White Buses mission in his book The End. My Humanitarian Negotiations in Germany in 1945 and Their Political Consequences, published on June 15, 1945 in Swedish. In the book, Bernadotte recounts his negotiations with Himmler and others, and his experience at the Ravensbrück concentration camp.”

The first problem is the book title. The one given is correct-- but only for the original Swedish title translated into English. When it was published in English and other languages the title was changed and is cited further down as:

Bernadotte, Folke (1945). The Curtain Falls. Translated by Count Eric Lewenhaupt. New York: A. A. Knopf. LCCN 45008956. (Swedish title: Slutet.)

Here’s the problem: If you search for a copy of “The End: My Negotiations et al” you cannot find it except in the Library of Congress. You can’t buy it anywhere; no library can lend you a copy. It more or less doesn’t exist. That’s because the tile was changed to the second version, which are variations based on “The Curtain Falls.” The write-up needs to make clear that “The End” is “The Curtain Falls.” It does not currently do this in at least two places. This must be fixed and made clear. Also, the full title of the book needs to be given: It is “The Curtain Falls: The Last Days of the Third Reich.” You can find it many places, such as Amazon, https://www.amazon.com/Curtain-Falls-Last-Third-Reich-ebook/dp/B01BXA10OK/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=the+curtain+falls&qid=1596123477&s=books&sr=1-6

Here is the second problem: The Misplaced Pages write-up quoted above says “...and his experience at the Ravensbrück concentration camp.”

In fact, the book does NOT mention “his experience” at Ravensbruck; there is no indication anywhere in this book that he ever went near the place.

The first of only two references says this : “He also showed genuine interest in my proposal that the Swedish Red Cross be allowed to remove all French women interned at the Ravensbruck concentration camp. He said that he not only assented to this, but that he also wished us to remove the women of all nationalities, as the camp in question was shortly to be evacuated. I promised him that I would immediately give our detachment orders to this effect.”

The second reference on the very next page says: “I departed for Friedrichsruh immediately after breakfast. After a short visit to our headquarters, where I made arrangements for the removal of the women interned at Ravensbruck, I started for Denmark to be precise, for the small town of Padborg, just north of the Danish-German frontier. There I had the opportunity of inspecting the excellent arrangements made by the Danish Red Cross and the Danish authorities for the reception and quartering of prisoners before they were removed to other places in Denmark.”

It very clearly says he “made arrangements for” the transfer, and that he immediately left to go not to Ravensbruck but to Padborg.

There is no other reference to Ravensbruck. A further problem is the date of this conversation, which appears to be April 21 or April 22, 1945. In fact, the first evacuation of French women from Ravensbruck occurred on April 8, and is amply documented in many sources, including the well-documented fact they were greeted at Gare de Lyon by Gen. de Gaulle, on April 22 (and it took the women 16 days to get there). Other women -- the now famous “Lilacs,” Polish Catholics -- were soon evacuated, before August 22. Then, approximately 20,000 to 25,000 other women were sent on a death march across Germany (most did not survive). The Russians arrived at and occupied Ravensbruck on April 30, 1945, when only about 4,000 were left inside.

Bill Swanson1946 (talk) 18:11, 29 July 2021 (UTC) Bill Swanson

Thank you for your comments. Regarding the book, we permit non-English sources and there is no rule again citing the original Swedish edition. On the other hand, English sources of equal reliability are preferred, so the best outcome will be to name and cite the English edition. I believe I have electronic access and I'll work on this. (As an aside, you are incorrect that the original title was used only in Swedish. I located German, Finnish, Danish, Italian, French, Spanish and Esperanto editions using the original title in translation.) Zero 03:44, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

UN mediator

The phrasing "unilateral Israeli Declaration of Independence" is inappropriate. The declaration was based on the UN resolution 181 (II) and was neither unilateral not multilateral. I suggest the word unilateral be dropped. Jony (talk) 21:08, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

It was unilateral, DoI's typically are (unless you count the backdoor chicanery with Truman who recognized Israel more or less instantaneously). Just search, one can quickly find several sources containing that expression. https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7312/gend15288 for example. Selfstudier (talk) 21:27, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

The issue as to who hired the Lehi assassins

Declassified British document suggests that the Israeli state itself hired the killers. British National Archives FO 371/75266 contains a 1949 letter about the then Belgium Consul-General, M. Jean Niewenhuys, detailing a "source, whom I consider to be reliable, has been in secret communication with a certain Czech employee" in the Consulate. According to the source, the assassins were indeed Lehi, but they were working for Israel, not Lehi. "It appeared that the Czech Consul-General had been approached by Mr Shiloah* of the Israeli Foreign Office … about a week before the murder, to arrange Czech visas and air passage for seven Jews in a Czech air line for the late afternoon flight to Prague … Shiloah, acting on behalf of the Israeli Government, was the organiser of the murder. Source: https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20221019-did-israel-not-lehi-murder-un-mediator-folke-bernadotte-in-1948/ 185.236.184.175 (talk) 23:37, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Interesting, but too conjectural for us and a better source is needed. Zero 01:50, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Bernadotte

Should one say the final 'e', for example? 142.205.202.71 (talk) 18:51, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

No. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:19, 8 December 2023 (UTC)--SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:19, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Misinformation in Introductory Paragraph

The opening paragraph alone contains confusing wording and outright misinformation. The Theresienstadt ghetto ONLY held Jewish prisoners. The only available sources cited didn’t support this statement about tens of thousands of non Jewish prisoners being transferred from there. In fact, one of the sources referred to thousands of non-Jews and Jews being taken from Ravensbruck and other camps to other countries.

If non-Jews were taken to Theresienstadt for their release, this should be made clear, as they had not prisoners there. I didn’t see evidence to support that, though.

I haven’t read the rest of the article, but the fact that the opening paragraph has completely incorrect information indicates that someone should more throughly vet this article.

It is probably for the best that it is locked, but those allowed to edit such articles need to be more vigilant, as it is unfortunately yet another Misplaced Pages piece that misrepresents the Holocaust in favor of those who downplay it, erasing the reality that an entire camp and ghetto was made exclusively for the Jews. Propaganda claimed “Hitler gave the Jews a city,” Theresienstadt. Elleoneiram (talk) 01:13, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Now that I think about it, the phrasing also suggests that TENS OF THOUSANDS of non Jews were prisoner there, alongside *a few hundred* Jews. Which comes across as a more purposeful distortion of the Holocaust than I had thought. Elleoneiram (talk) 01:26, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Your comments would be more useful if you addressed the sources and/or provided sources for your positions. Everything we put into the article has to be based on published sources. Zero 03:35, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

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