| Revision as of 13:16, 11 October 2006 editPenbat (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users58,229 editsm →Shocked by deletion of Vaknin, Sam ''Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited'' by 220.237.81.156← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 12:56, 7 January 2025 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,305,781 editsm Archiving 1 discussion(s) to Talk:Narcissistic personality disorder/Archive 5) (bot | ||
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| == Interesting new study suggests grandiose narcs are psychopaths and vulnerable narcs hide low self-esteem == | |||
| ==Archive 2== | |||
| https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886921001550 | |||
| The most recent comment was 6 weeks old and redundant, most was far older, and is now totally irrelevant, so I have archived the page.--] 08:16, 24 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Here is an extract of the discussion which disproves claims linking to grandioe type to psychopaths. | |||
| ==New discussions please== | |||
| "Here, we show a strong correlation between FLEX - a component of PRISN - and narcissism. This correlation is surprising as it is born of insecurities and is not better explained by socially desirable behavior. It suggests that narcissism is better understood as a compensatory adaptation to overcome and cover up negative self-worth, instead of genuine grandiosity and grandeur. The overall pattern of our results supports this interpretation, as guilt is evoked differentially by moral dilemmas – individuals scoring high on measures of psychopathy exhibit low guilt whereas insecure individuals exhibit high guilt." | |||
| Zeraeph is currently under suspension for Wiki violations and verbally attacking others. As far as I am concerned all her contributions were completely poisonous. I think it is a good idea to keep the previous text archived so we can start afresh with the slate wiped clean. I am working on the Bully and Workplace Bully Wiki entries in particular. Narcissism and psychopathy is closely related to bullying so there is quite a lot of overlap. | |||
| Article on Psychology Today concerning the study: | |||
| I am not in Sam Vaknin's fan club but I feel that Zeraeph wound him up into a frenzy. Like him or loath him, Sam is one of the key authorities on narcissism. He still runs two support groups for victims of narcissism. --] 11:55, 22 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-mindful-self-express/202103/are-narcissists-actually-covering-insecurity | |||
| == Narcissistic Rage, Supply and Injury == | |||
| Psychology Today is pop psychology. | |||
| No mention of these. They all need their own Wikis. --] 14:19, 28 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==Wiki Education assignment: Personality Theory== | |||
| == Say what? == | |||
| == Why are we citing a reddit user? == | |||
| "Zeraeph wound him up into a frenzy" | |||
| Even though there is a news article that references it, it doesn't seem to fit ]. ] (]) 14:53, 20 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| Don't you know that, like wife beaters, narcissists always pull this stunt to come out smelling like a rose? And it worked on YOU? Oh, what a groaner. Unbelievable. Just unbelievable. I'm oughta here. --] | |||
| :Remove it then WP:BOLD ] (]) 20:47, 22 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Peer-reviewed, neutral content needed == | |||
| ==Wiki Education assignment: Equitable Futures - Internet Cultures and Open Access== | |||
| This entry is generally lacking in scholarly rigour and reads as opinion. It would be improved by a healthy dose of substantiation and peer-reviewed referencing.(Unsigned comment) | |||
| {{dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment | course = Misplaced Pages:Wiki_Ed/Columbia_College_Chicago/Equitable_Futures_-_Internet_Cultures_and_Open_Access_(Spring_2023) | assignments = ] | reviewers = ] | start_date = 2023-01-25 | end_date = 2023-05-12 }} | |||
| <span class="wikied-assignment" style="font-size:85%;">— Assignment last updated by ] (]) 19:30, 26 April 2023 (UTC)</span> | |||
| Yes I agree but more importantly IMO loads of material is completely missing: true self, false self, projection, narcissistic rage, narcissistic supply, narcissistic injury etc are completely missing. They are ideas introduced by the pioneers mentioned on ]. I am gradually working towards a more rigourous write up but I am no expert. The only heavyweight expert around who was likely to contribute was Sam Vaknin but the powers that be have banned him. | |||
| == The DSMV-TR Dimensional approach== | |||
| ::Vaknin is not recognised by peers as an authority - he is widely regarded in the profession as a crank, and a dangerous spreader of misinformation. I support the "powers that be", just as I would support removal of Intelligent Design arguments in wiki articles on biology. It's comparable. - Unsigned by ] 22:48, 10 October 2006 | |||
| Please take note of the addition of a dimensional approach (section III) to the categorical approach (Section II) in the DSMV-TR below | |||
| https://www.mredscircleoftrust.com/storage/app/media/DSM%205%20TR.pdf <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 12:17, 1 January 2024 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Xsign --> | |||
| Not all material can be peer reviewed scientifically as the pioneers such as Kohut had differing theories but they are important to understand. --] 13:17, 9 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Role of shame and/or worthlessness in NPD needs to be clarified. == | |||
| Also nothing on Comorbidity of NPD. --] 14:31, 10 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| The role of self-esteem in NPD is highly contentious, but it's misleading to present NPD as being marked by feelings of worthlessness, self-loathing, or low self-esteem. It's diagnosed according to a set of symptoms which have nothing to do with these traits. The clinical definition should be emphasized above isolated studies and hypotheses, since these frequently contradict each other. ] (]) 02:04, 9 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Shocked by deletion of Vaknin, Sam ''Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited'' by 220.237.81.156 == | |||
| :Thank you for raising this point. I have clarified the bit which was flagged, but the Signs and Symptoms section does need to lead with the current diagnostic criteria. Contributions from a subject matter expert would be ideal. ] (]) 02:33, 27 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
| You could at least had the decency to discuss this first. There are about 30 books listed - with a wide range of styles - some very academic and some designed for the lay non-technical reader. Sam Vaknin's book is one of the best selling on Narcissism. The reader is more than capable of using their own judgement about which books to refer to. IMO this sort of censorship is unreasonable and If it is not put back I will refuse to ever do any more work on narcissism Wikis. --] 13:33, 9 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::There is no contradiction. Hundreds, if not thousands of studies have explored and detailed the core role of shame, self-loathing, and worthlessness in all forms of NPD. It is a ''defining'' trait, so much so that it is referred to as causal for many of the more easily externally visible symptoms. The diagnostic criteria, for NPD and all conditions/disorders, are NOT meant to describe the disorder as a whole. Diagnostic criteria are simply a list of quantifiable traits which can be used to identify, but they are never meant to be used as a list of all signs and symptoms of a disorder. | |||
| ::Many disorders (including NPD) will have a signs and symptoms that are referred to as '''classification criteria''', which help researchers identify and group populations for study. For example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4482786/ | |||
| ::TL;DR - The true known traits of a disorder are defined by peer-reviewed research, not by a diagnostic manual which is only meant to provide a subset of more easily identifiable symptoms to healthcare providers who are often less knowledgeable about the current research. | |||
| ::] 00:03, 16 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Comparison with MPD is completely off == | |||
| :Vaknin is not an authority - he is regarded in the profession as a crank with many wildly unsubstantiated claims. This page must retain professional rigour to maintain credibility. - Unsigned by ] 22:49, 10 October 2006 (UTC) Please sign your posts from now on. | |||
| :::220.237.81.156 is almost certainly a sockpuppet and can be disregarded. --] 13:15, 11 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| In the last topic of the history section, NPD is compared to BPD and MPD. The last paragraph discusses how NPD 'shares some commonality with the now discredited "multiple personality disorder" (MPD)...'. This discussion seems to be uncited and is also factually incorrect as MPD has not been discredited, it has been renamed Dissociative Identity Disorder, and DID is currently very popular on TikTok. I looked through the history of the article and it was added in this edit https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Narcissistic_personality_disorder&oldid=1116919357. The article cited backs up the point about narcissistic traits not necessarily being on the increase but from what I can see makes no discussion of any relation between NPD and MPD. I am not a frequent editor so I don't want to just remove an entire paragraph without discussing it but thought this should be discussed at least. ] (]) 12:09, 1 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::Vaknin does not make things up out of nothing - they are not things he dreamed up. Sam worked under a psychitrist conducting research on personality disorders while he was in prison and had unfettered access to the doctor's library selections. Since he left Israel 10 years ago, he has acquired a considerable library of authorities on NPD and, as time went by, on many other relevant and related topics. | |||
| ==Wiki Education assignment: Brain Tips== | |||
| ::Vaknin's only "mistake" was in not foot-noting his original book. Instead, he merely listed his reference texts. | |||
| {{dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment | course = Misplaced Pages:Wiki_Ed/Clemson_University/Brain_Tips_(Fall) | assignments = ] | start_date = 2024-08-28 | end_date = 2024-12-06 }} | |||
| <span class="wikied-assignment" style="font-size:85%;">— Assignment last updated by ] (]) 21:07, 8 October 2024 (UTC)</span> | |||
| ::The truth is that Vaknin's book, MSL, is on the shelves at several Ivy League colleges because professors have requested it be there. If it is good enough for them, then it must be a lot better what your spouting off indicates. He has no "wildly unsubstantiated claims". Whenever something is merely his own material, he indicates that. All the rest, he learned from the authorities in the field. -] 06:39, 11 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==What the professionals have to say== | |||
| ===Narcissistic Supply in professional journals & books=== | |||
| found on that page - | |||
| The earliest date for a doctor (a psychoanalyst) using "Narcissistic Supply" was 1938. The drive to amass wealth O Fenichel - '''Psychoanalytic Quarterly''', 1938 - pep-web.org ... can be looked upon first as a derivative of that primitive form of regulation of self-regard in which the individual requires a 'narcissistic supply' from the ... | |||
| Also, these that quote and cite Vaknin | |||
| * | |||
| * Narcissism in High Fidelity Dr. Kristina Nelson | |||
| * Narzisstische Strukturen in Sunset Boulevard und Mulholland Drive N Velten, H Berressem, E Seminar - pp 6,16,17 uni-koeln.de ... of Narcissistic Supply (admiration, adoration, approval, awe) and fulfills important Ego functions“ (Vaknin). Eine narzisstische ... | |||
| * Unadulterated Arrogance: Autopsy of the Narcissistic Parental Alienator DM Summers, CC Summers - '''American Journal of Family Therapy''', 2006 - Taylor & Francis | |||
| :... excessive admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation—or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be notorious (narcissistic supply) (Vaknin, 2003b). ... | |||
| -] 07:31, 11 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ===Narcissistic Rage in Professional Journals & Books=== | |||
| As far as I can reckon, Kohut coined this term in a book published in 1971. -] 07:40, 11 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ===Narcissistic Injury in Professional Journals & Books=== | |||
| -] 07:40, 11 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ===Human Sources of Narcissistic Supply=== | |||
| It may have been Vaknin who coined the terms Primary and Secondary. Not all relevant journals and books are available online, but analysts recognized and described Primary and Secondary sources of supply, even if they didn't use the actual terms. | |||
| -] 07:58, 11 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==Understanding Sam Vaknin's body of work== | |||
| Sam Vaknin is a more than competent researcher, and he has written a book that may be rambling and repetitive, but that does not not mean that facts within suddenly become faulty. It doesn't work that way. The truth is that Vaknin has devoted a large portion of the last 10+ years studying NPD. | |||
| After he brought his as then unpublished book to the web, he immediately attracted thousands of correspondents, including mental health professionals, to include psychiatrists and psychologists. He did not realize he was going to get more letters from the human wreckage NPD spawns than from any other group. This led him to begin years of continuing deep and extensive study of shame, dependence, codependency, other personality disorders, etc. | |||
| He has done increasingly large amounts of study in of research findings in a wide range of subjects touching on all aspects of the personality disorders and the disruptions in human relational functioning. | |||
| The truth is, Vaknin does not have much of any "original research" in his books and articles. What he percieved from his correspondence, he did not write about directly but of what his research told him about what letters to him said. What Vaknin has in his book comes from the very fine minds of icons in the field. Vaknin's "problem", as I mentioned above, was his failure to footnote. If he weren't so lazy or if he thought it would gain him sufficient narcissistic supply, he might be tempted to tackle that arduous task. | |||
| -] 08:18, 11 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
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Interesting new study suggests grandiose narcs are psychopaths and vulnerable narcs hide low self-esteem
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886921001550
Here is an extract of the discussion which disproves claims linking to grandioe type to psychopaths.
"Here, we show a strong correlation between FLEX - a component of PRISN - and narcissism. This correlation is surprising as it is born of insecurities and is not better explained by socially desirable behavior. It suggests that narcissism is better understood as a compensatory adaptation to overcome and cover up negative self-worth, instead of genuine grandiosity and grandeur. The overall pattern of our results supports this interpretation, as guilt is evoked differentially by moral dilemmas – individuals scoring high on measures of psychopathy exhibit low guilt whereas insecure individuals exhibit high guilt."
Article on Psychology Today concerning the study:
Psychology Today is pop psychology.
Wiki Education assignment: Personality Theory
Why are we citing a reddit user?
Even though there is a news article that references it, it doesn't seem to fit WP: Identifying reliable sources (medicine). Yoshimatu (talk) 14:53, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
- Remove it then WP:BOLD LinuxNCats (talk) 20:47, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
Wiki Education assignment: Equitable Futures - Internet Cultures and Open Access
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 25 January 2023 and 12 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Th4td4nc3r13 (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Annamariefdaly.
— Assignment last updated by WikiEdit7205 (talk) 19:30, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
The DSMV-TR Dimensional approach
Please take note of the addition of a dimensional approach (section III) to the categorical approach (Section II) in the DSMV-TR below
https://www.mredscircleoftrust.com/storage/app/media/DSM%205%20TR.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Leaving Neveland (talk • contribs) 12:17, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Role of shame and/or worthlessness in NPD needs to be clarified.
The role of self-esteem in NPD is highly contentious, but it's misleading to present NPD as being marked by feelings of worthlessness, self-loathing, or low self-esteem. It's diagnosed according to a set of symptoms which have nothing to do with these traits. The clinical definition should be emphasized above isolated studies and hypotheses, since these frequently contradict each other. 2603:7081:1603:A300:8448:8888:CC8F:BC90 (talk) 02:04, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for raising this point. I have clarified the bit which was flagged, but the Signs and Symptoms section does need to lead with the current diagnostic criteria. Contributions from a subject matter expert would be ideal. HussainHx (talk) 02:33, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- There is no contradiction. Hundreds, if not thousands of studies have explored and detailed the core role of shame, self-loathing, and worthlessness in all forms of NPD. It is a defining trait, so much so that it is referred to as causal for many of the more easily externally visible symptoms. The diagnostic criteria, for NPD and all conditions/disorders, are NOT meant to describe the disorder as a whole. Diagnostic criteria are simply a list of quantifiable traits which can be used to identify, but they are never meant to be used as a list of all signs and symptoms of a disorder.
- Many disorders (including NPD) will have a signs and symptoms that are referred to as classification criteria, which help researchers identify and group populations for study. For example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4482786/
- TL;DR - The true known traits of a disorder are defined by peer-reviewed research, not by a diagnostic manual which is only meant to provide a subset of more easily identifiable symptoms to healthcare providers who are often less knowledgeable about the current research.
- - Varixai 00:03, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
Comparison with MPD is completely off
In the last topic of the history section, NPD is compared to BPD and MPD. The last paragraph discusses how NPD 'shares some commonality with the now discredited "multiple personality disorder" (MPD)...'. This discussion seems to be uncited and is also factually incorrect as MPD has not been discredited, it has been renamed Dissociative Identity Disorder, and DID is currently very popular on TikTok. I looked through the history of the article and it was added in this edit https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Narcissistic_personality_disorder&oldid=1116919357. The article cited backs up the point about narcissistic traits not necessarily being on the increase but from what I can see makes no discussion of any relation between NPD and MPD. I am not a frequent editor so I don't want to just remove an entire paragraph without discussing it but thought this should be discussed at least. Qwerty11235813 (talk) 12:09, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
Wiki Education assignment: Brain Tips
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 August 2024 and 6 December 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Cbrads2 (article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Cbrads2 (talk) 21:07, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
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