| Revision as of 17:03, 15 October 2006 editDominique Blanc (talk | contribs)344 editsNo edit summary← Previous edit |
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This article seems a bit muddled! Since "Greek love" is a modern term for an ancient practice, it can hardly have been "corrupted" by modern usage. Also, I'm not sure what justification there is for maintaining this article in addition to ]. I suggest a merge. |
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] 21:04, 10 October 2006 (UTC) |
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: I also can't quite figure out what is being talked about, and where the term comes from. Unless someone comes up with a specific entity by this name, cultural or literary, which relates strictly to its modern sense and not to ancient practices, I also suggest it be redirected. I did not noticeanything new that is not already covered elsewhere. Maybe we should just have a mention of the term in the main pederasty article, if we can determine its history and context. ] 00:54, 11 October 2006 (UTC) |
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::As I implied in my first note to the 'Pederasty' discussion, one intrudes upon established discussions (by assessors and editors of undoubted expertise) at one's peril. You will have seen my later comments on how I came to have written the 'Greek love' piece - as a newcomer to Misplaced Pages - and how, I believe, the title can be justified as a separate entry. I do take the point about a modern term being 'corrupted' by modern usage: you must surely know, however, of J Z Eglinton's 'Greek Love' which treats of the subject according to its original sense, and you may know of L Crompton's 'Byron and Greek Love' which (typically of many avowedly 'gay' writers) conflates pederasty and gay-homosexuality. |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|class=Start|1= |
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{{WikiProject Sexology and sexuality| importance=Low}} |
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{{WikiProject LGBT studies}} |
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{{WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome|importance=low}} |
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{{old move|date=3 August 2024|destination=Cultural impact of Classical Greek homoeroticism|result=Not moved|link=Special:Permalink/1239939904#Requested move 3 August 2024}} |
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== Requested move 3 August 2024 == |
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::So, in that sense, the modern term has been 'corrupted' unless it was originally conceived as referring to adult relationships, in which case Eglinton's book is mis-titled. It may be politic to research the term more rigorously if entries are required to be validated in this way. Even as a popular term, it may still provide a gateway to 'enlightenment' for those for whom the word 'pederast' is vague or meaningless, though I suppose this could be provided by a search 'redirection'. |
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::There remains the question of the content, which I agree is impressively and extensively treated in the 'Pederasty' article. The (brief) reference to modern-day boys' institutions in 'Greek Love' could perhaps find some relevant expansion in the larger article, though I see the application of the Platonic principle in modern education as difficult to argue, ironically when the heritage of Greek educational values is still acknowledged. |
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:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.'' |
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The result of the move request was: '''Not moved.''' <small>(])</small> ] ] 05:06, 18 August 2024 (UTC) |
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::While the whole subject deserves impeccable scholarship, again I would suggest that the information can be of use and interest also to the general reader who may find longer articles tiresome to negotiate. Perhaps there is a policy on this? --] 10:26, 12 October 2006 (UTC) |
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---- |
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] → {{no redirect|Cultural impact of Classical Greek homoeroticism}} – The phrase "greek love" is misleading. An alternative option would then be to e.g. move it to "greek love (idiom)", but that too wouldn't be as precise as this previous title - which is now a redirect - used to be. ] (]) 10:24, 3 August 2024 (UTC) <small>— '''''Relisting.''''' <span style="white-space:nowrap"><span style="font-family:monospace">'''<nowiki>''']<nowiki>]]'''</nowiki>'''</span> (] • ])</span> 01:48, 11 August 2024 (UTC)</small> |
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:::Your point about Crompton and "Eglinton's" works is well taken. I will try to make some time and look for material on the term as such, rather than merely as a synonym for "pederasty". That raises the question of whether the term "boy love" should have a life of its own. A quick look led me to the article on ], so you might say theres a precedent for your approach. ] 11:19, 12 October 2006 (UTC) |
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* I would '''support ]''' as a title. I think the "Cultural impact of" part is excessive. ] ] 16:22, 4 August 2024 (UTC) |
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::Many thanks. I too will give the question more thought and search-time. I was tempted to use the term 'boy-love' in the article, but felt the expression ambiguous and probably mis-leading. The Japanese variant opens yet another can of worms - all quite difficult to get a hold on! |
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::But that isn't the subject (and it should be "ancient" not "classical"). We have ], ] and no doubt others for that. ] (]) 16:52, 4 August 2024 (UTC) |
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--] 12:38, 12 October 2006 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose'''. Not sure how "misleading" it is, & the proposed alternative is pretty clunky. Again, it should be "ancient" not "classical" - ] is a narrower term. ] (]) 16:52, 4 August 2024 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' that term was used at a time when they didn't call a spade a spade. It has no value other than as a relic of an era. ] (]) 17:25, 4 August 2024 (UTC) |
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::: There used to be a boylove article, but it was changed to a redirect to ], where much of the material was duplicated. The Japanese term is not really a variant -- it refers specifically to a sub-genre of comic books, not a sexual practice. ] 17:45, 12 October 2006 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' Article is clearly mainly about the term and how it's been used, and does not focus only on the Classic period. As Johnbod ] and ] already exist. I see no good reason to move the article too an overly verbose title.] (]) 13:28, 7 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:<small>Note: ] and ] have been notified of this discussion. <span style="white-space:nowrap"><span style="font-family:monospace">'''<nowiki>''']<nowiki>]]'''</nowiki>'''</span> (] • ])</span> 01:49, 11 August 2024 (UTC)</small> |
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:: 'Variant' in the sense of an offshoot of the main theme, (perhaps 'departure' would have been better?) and as I understand, not irrelevant to our search for clearer definitions of related expressions with however different shades of meaning. I must find out more about what 'behaviour' is practised in the comics! |
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*'''Oppose''' for the reasons stated by ★Trekker and Johnbod. This article is about perceptions of ancient Greek cultural attitudes throughout history, and typically described by the term that is the article's title. It's true that the term was a euphemism, but it's a euphemism with a considerable amount of history and cultural significance. I don't see any utility in changing a title that we still recognize to one that would tend to disguise the subject. Since the topic itself is somewhat dated, in the sense that attitudes toward homoeroticism and homosexuality have evolved to the degree that euphemisms such as this and its historical justifications are no longer viewed as necessary, the subject lacks the cultural currency that would tend to result in a new title replacing the existing one. Thus the existing title seems preferable to the proposed alternative, or similar titles. ] (]) 02:24, 11 August 2024 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''': The article already covers the term's history and usage, so renaming it to focus on a single time period seems unnecessary. ]] 15:09, 12 August 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Note that we have an article about the book, '']'', which covers most of this material. -] 19:25, 12 October 2006 (UTC) |
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<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: var(--color-error, red);">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from ] --> |
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:: Prof Dover's book is outstanding within the field as an unequivocally objective study by a distinguished scholar content to interpret (historical data) rather than speculate or construe beyond known facts. Interestingly he was unhappy with the implied antithesis between hetero- and homosexuality, describing the latter as 'a subdivision of the ''quasi-sexual'' or ''pseudo-sexual'''. |
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:: Haiduc, I agree that the article needs fleshing out: I have had a preliminary glance at the Oxford Hellenist movement (Wilde et al) and their identification with 'the love of the Greeks'. It would be nice to find that the term (Gk love) was coined in that context, given that it seems improbable that the term did not find its spontaneous way into their parlance. And they may not have been too precise about the age-related aspect...so it may be possible to find a separate existence for the term after all. |
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::Also interesting French ref :: |
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::--] 15:10, 14 October 2006 (UTC) |
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Strikes me that the phrase is also slang for anal sex in general, right? With "Greek active" as the top and "Greek passive" as the bottom. This usage doesn't refer to age--and maybe not the gender either--I remember seeing it in a heterosexual context once (trashy novel) but am not sure if this was ever common. In a gay context it used to be common in personal ads, contrasted with "French" for oral. As usual I have no sources for any of this! |
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Sorry to be tasteless, Dominique, but to justify the existence of this separate article we should be mostly about the usage of the phrase itself, not about the Greeks as a culture (covered elsewhere). |
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] 21:47, 14 October 2006 (UTC) |
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::No, not tasteless, since we are trying to penetrate (excuse the expression) the term which refuses to be easily pigeon-holed! There was reference to this in the previous short version of this article, and (from memory) a comparison with other sexual practices, though the emphasis was on the 'Greek' cultural interpretation. (I seem to be having a problem accessing the early pages, so I can't comment on sources.) Note that some dictionary definitions of ‘pederasty’ are given as ‘sodomy with a boy’ or ‘ anal sex’ - not thought to be a Greek practice - so there's another sense in which the terms can relate, if for the wrong reasons. There are differences, however, and Haiduc hit the nail on the head with his introduction of 'euphemism', and as you see, I am interested in tracing usage and possibly origin of the term in the context of the Oxbridge elite. It seems obvious that such a felicitous expression could be arrived at quite naturally among educated homosexual groups anywhere, so it may be hard to pinpoint a specific place, time or person. One might even be tempted to explore the Florentine Renaissance! One other point, 'Greek Love' is a non-technical expression requiring interpretation, while 'pederasty' (pederastia) has precise etymological roots, (and certainly for the Greeks had a specific meaning) though as we see, the latter term can be 'hijacked' to mean something else. In the Victorian context, Gk love would refer to undefined male relations which were criminalised across the board, but for that very reason, the pederastic interpretation would probably be aired within private circles as freely as that of adult-only relations, and possibly more - because of the Classical reference. So far, I have found one clear source for a conscious use of the term i.e. J Addington Symonds' 'A Problem in Greek ethics' who writes: |
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"In treating of this unique product of their civilisation I shall use the terms '''Greek Love''', understanding thereby a passionate and enthusiastic attachment subsisting between man and youth, recognised by society and protected by opinion, which, though it was not free from sensuality, did not degenerate into mere licentiousness." |
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and later: "It has frequently occurred to my mind that ''the mixed type of paiderastia'' which I have named Greek Love took its origin in Doris." My italics - the author refers to differences among different city-states. The following link is to a review of Neil McKenna’s ‘The secret life of Oscar Wilde’ which highlights Wilde’s friendship for Symonds, and others. Will have to conclude at this point. |
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