| Revision as of 21:25, 12 April 2018 editCrystallizedcarbon (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Page movers, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers44,334 edits →Reversion by Crystallizedcarbon: Comment← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 16:22, 17 July 2024 edit undoQwerfjkl (bot) (talk | contribs)Bots, Mass message senders4,013,179 editsm Removed deprecated parameters in {{Talk header}} that are now handled automatically (Task 30)Tag: paws [2.2] | ||
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| == |
== Alleged irregularities == | ||
| User Arjayay eliminated a sentence in which I stated that until now there is no evidence that the images of people voting more than once at this referendum are manipulated, without providing any proof that indicates the opposite. Unless he provides a reason for that I will redo the edition. | |||
| :{{ping|2a02:908:c61:6860:a17d:34d5:bf3a:2b20}} Misplaced Pages does not work this way. Precisely, the issue with your sentence is that it is what you stated, providing no source to back it up, so what you did was just to add ] into the article. Information must come from ]. Also, please note that you must not engage in ], so unless you can cite reliable sources to back up your claims, I would highly discourage you from undoing Arjayay's edition. <span style="font-size:95;border:1px #0018A8;border-radius:50px;background-color:#0018A8;">''']'''<sup>]</sup></span> 16:47, 10 August 2018 (UTC) | |||
| I have to provide sources showing that there is no evidence of the images are not edited or manipulated? That doesn't make any sense. Anyway, I found several articles talking about some manipulated images allegedly about the day of the referendum, and none of them is one of the videos or images that show people voting twice, I guess that will do it. The fact that there is no evidence of that is informative, since as it is explained now it looks like it has been proved that what those images show is not possible, therefore they must be edited. But they aren't. And that fact says a lot about the nature of the referendum, therefore it's important to tell it. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 13:28, 15 August 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| The general strike proposal was originally put forward by the anarcho-syndicalist CGT and CNT along with some smaller anarchist groups - not the CCOO who endorsed it just recently, as did the UGT. It was also originally proposed with a neutral view towards independence and primarily as a response to the repression of the Spanish government. | |||
| :You would have to show sources showing that image manipulation was an issue. By adding a sentence claiming that "Until now, there is no evidence that the images of people voting twice are manipulated", you are taking for granted that there is some manipulation issue, one which is not brought up nor sourced in the text elsewhere. You would need to prove that 1) there is controversy on the reliability of images of people voting twice; 2) that such controversy relates to the information which is sourced here; and 3) that these images were indeed not manipulated. Typically, here in Misplaced Pages we presume that what ] state is true, so we would already assume that the images of people voting twice were not manipulated unless there are other sources which state that these were. Your claim has little sense here. <span style="font-size:95;border:1px #0018A8;border-radius:50px;padding-left:0.5em;background-color:#0018A8;">''']'''<sup>]</sup></span> 14:36, 15 August 2018 (UTC) | |||
| 1) there is controversy on the reliability of the images, since the same wikipedia page claims that "Other media reported that it was not possible to vote twice". 2)The controversy relates to the information which is sourced here: it's about the validity of the voting system used that day. 3) these images were indeed not manipulated, since no one has been able to prove the opposite and they are not among the manipulated images shown in this website specialized in debunking fake news about politics, for example: https://maldita.es/maldito-bulo/cataluna-objetivo-de-los-bulos-en-el-2017-del-referendum-a-las-elecciones/ <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 20:34, 17 August 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| == PRESS COVERAGE == | |||
| He has a point, the existence of a system that "did not validate the second attempt" when voting doesn't prove that that system worked always, especially in an unofficial referendum. And the images of people voting more than once are there, they were reported in several media. I edit the text to include both facts.] (]) 01:50, 14 October 2019 (UTC) | |||
| On 19 January 2018, Sky News released an unpublished "Behind the Scenes" coverage of Catalan referendum day in October 2017 and the extraordinary scenes of police violence that followed<ref>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_gOkzyLWWc</ref>. ] (]) 19:27, 20 January 2018 (UTC) | |||
| :Thanks ] for your information. You do not need to know all the rules of WP now since you are new, but as of now please '''add always the signature at the end''' of your talk page interventions. WP has its protocols and that is one of them. For the rest of statements and references you add, try to be as relevant to the section as possible, so that no one considers them unsuitably located in the section or paragraph, given the (needless) litigation going on in this article. Thank you ] (]) 19:38, 21 January 2018 (UTC) | |||
| But there's literally no proof for that, we still don't know what source do we have to ensure that "several people voted various times" ] (]) 01:30, 2 August 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == Cyberattacks and disinformation are not the same thing == | |||
| If our only sources are only photos, then we shouldn't be that sure of anything ] (]) 01:32, 2 August 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ] refers to various means of malicious acts that either steals, alters, or destroys a specified target by hacking into a susceptible computer systems. ] on the other hand is false or incorrect information that is spread intentionally or unintentionally (i.e. without realizing it is untrue). | |||
| == POV == | |||
| They are not related. The last paragraph of the ] talked exclusively about the alleged misinformation actions originating from Russian media outlets and social network bots. There was no mention in the text about cyberattacks. | |||
| The article is too detailed, especially about the effects of the clashes, trying to sway the readers toward the independence POV aka narrative ] (]) 15:17, 3 November 2019 (UTC) | |||
| In by {{u|Edgarmm81}} that difference was ignored even though the article itself made it explicitly clear that it was referring only to cyberatacks and not to misinformation campaings: "han hecho hincapié en distinguir entre las campañas de manipulación de la información que puedan desarrollarse en redes sociales y los ciberataques". Even though the information is not relevant to the article as there was no claim of cyberattacks, it was used to refer to the alleged misinformation campaign (it was added at the end of that paragraph) as a "conspiracy theory" and claim that the Spanish National Criptology Center disregarded it. The term "conspiracy theory" was not used in the article, and the article clearly stated that it was not talking about misinformation, so I clarifying that there is a difference between misinformation and cyberattacks. | |||
| == Can someone fix the last sentence of 2020-2021 part? == | |||
| {{u|Iñaki LL}} adding back the misleading information claiming that the edit summary was confusing and citing ] and ]. Since I did not see the relevance of neither of the two policies cited by Iñaki, I adding to the edit summary the fact that there was a misrepresentation of the source, that the term "conspiracy theory" was used, that there was ] and asking Iñaki to bring the issue to the talk page per ]. Instead he chose to with this edit summary: "Info per WP:VER, do stop WP:BATTLEGROUND, stick to consensus seeking". Iñaki did at least change "conspiracy theory" for "dismissed foreign intervention" but the information is still unrelated and that claim is out of context as it relates to hacking which was never in question. It is misleading and again in that context is a case of ]. I thought my edit summary was clear enough, I hope this is clearly explains why the edit should be removed and I expect for Iñaki to do so or to clearly explain his reasons why as I still don't understand how ] and ] apply here. --] (]) 09:43, 22 February 2018 (UTC) | |||
| it says that things may change from September 2021 onwards and it's 2023 ] (]) 17:37, 23 August 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Agree with {{u|Crystallizedcarbon}}. --] 🐳 ♂ ] 21:36, 22 February 2018 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{u|Crystallizedcarbon}} Listen, you seem to be misunderstanding what WP is about, the information is sourced and accurate, no doubt. You have a history of content blanking, etc. Now coming back to the content, this is how my compromise attempt stands: "On 21 Nov 2017, the Spanish National Criptology Center (CCN), subsidiary of the Spanish Intelligence (CNI), dismissed foreign intervention by stating they "did not find any Russian Government nor any other state cyberattack during the Catalan affair"; , one that anyone can check. | |||
| ::Extending artificially discussions not only is unconstructive, but straight ]. By the way, thanks for not pinging me, I will come back. ] (]) 00:27, 23 February 2018 (UTC) | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/User:Crystallizedcarbon https://en.wikipedia.org/User:BallenaBlanca The Spanish delegation (an "El País" journalist amongst them) who accused Russia of interference in the Catalan Referendum failing to prove any of their accusations in a hearing in front of a UK Parliament Comission<ref>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB2WZGLBhpk</ref><ref>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEirJGME498</ref>. So we can find both: False accusations regarding Russia interference along with no cyberattacks (as Spanish National Criptology Center stated). On the other hand, Rusia terminated its financial aid to "El País" in 2016<ref>http://www.eldiario.es/rastreador/Rusia-Pais-medios-difundir-propaganda_6_710139001.html</ref>. Personally, it seems a blatant blackmail. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 00:35, 23 February 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| {{reftalk}} | |||
| :Edgarmm81, please do add ]. You should understand that WP has its protocoles, and that they are as important as the content you add. That means that raw information may not be valid, Youtube is not a valid source in WP. If you can arrange the rest of information in the right place and according to source, that should be good, otherwise anyone may come and call into question your edits. ] (]) 00:52, 23 February 2018 (UTC) | |||
| ::: Iñaki, please stop your personal attacks. The userserbox with the ballot box in you userpage referring to this referendum and to Mariano Rajoy together with you history of edits here indicates your strong bias in this article. Please keep your comments centered on the content and I will do the same. | |||
| ::: Information may be sourced and accurate, That does not mean that it may also be not relevant for the article or the section, and that as it happens here be misleading and false if placed in the wrong context as it is now. | |||
| :::*Please tell if you think that any part of this text is making reference to cyberattacks or if you think that it is talking about misinformation: | |||
| The Spanish newspaper El País argued that "the network of fake-news producers that Russia has employed to weaken the United States and the European Union is now operating at full speed on Catalonia", involving a network of Russian media outlets and social network bots which, according to the argument, aimed to influence local and global discussion of events. Later investigations by Medium-DFRL found support for some but not all of the arguments made by Spanish outlets. It is argued that the goal wasn't specifically to support Catalan independence but to "foment divisions to gradually undermine Europe’s democracy and institutions" and at discrediting Spanish legal and political authorities, while Russian authorities have denied that Russian actors had any involvement. | |||
| :::* ¿Do you disagree that the article used as a source clearly stated that they were referring only to cyberattacks and explicitelly mentioned that it was not talking about possible misinformation campaigns? | |||
| :::If there are no claims of cyberatacks in the paragraph there is no sense adding a sentence that denies them. The fact that it is verifiable and comes from a reliable source is irrelevant, as not all verifiable content on the subject should be included in the article. Here you are using a true and verifiable statement that is not relevant to the preceding text and you are adding it out of context which implies a different message (in the first version that the misinformation campaign was a "conspiracy theory dismissed by CNI" and in your last version that it "dismissed foreign intervention" without clarifying it is talking about something else) | |||
| :::Even if the statement was added outside the paragraph on misinformation, there have been no serious claims of any cyberattacks by Russia or any other states so it would make absolutely no sense to add a section about cyberattacks in the article. | |||
| :::If you have any valid argument to keep the statement please share it, if not, I ask you one last time to please remove the content yourself, It is verifiable, but it has no encyclopedic relevance, and the way it was added to the article make it clearly misleading. --] (]) 08:17, 23 February 2018 (UTC) | |||
| ::::For your behaviour in this article, in your page. I am going to be very short here, I am not going to add anything more to what I said above. With you specially, strictly with diffs and short sentences. ] as it stands now. I removed the misrepresentation of source (I would call it an overstatement) you pointed to get consensus, which is accurate. If you think something is incorrect add the nuance where relevant smoothly, and with a short, clear edit summary. As the paragraph stands now, it reads smoothly, naturally and I see no inconsistencies. ] (]) 16:33, 23 February 2018 (UTC) | |||
| :::::The information added is not relevant since there is no mention anywhere else of cyberattacks. It is also misplaced as the paragraph talks about misinformation and the source itself says that the quoted information does not. Additionally in that context "dismissed foreign intervention" is misleading. --] (]) 20:55, 23 February 2018 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Strictly on this contribution (La Vanguardia). I decided to remove it, because it refers rather to attacks against Spanish public administration on the application of the article 155, so it belongs in that article, per source. I suggest the editor goes there and adds it there. By contrast, the arrests of Catalan politicians for organizing the referendum would belong here. | |||
| ::::::That should fix this discussion. The article continues to be full of imprecisions, WP:SYNTH, WP:CHERRYPICK and misrepresentation of sources though. A complete disgrace, but I do not feel like running the gauntlet.] (]) 01:27, 25 February 2018 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::: Yes Iñaqui, it does. I do appreciate it when you center your arguments on the content. As far as the arrest of Catalan politicians I also think the information is relevant and that it belongs in the "political effects" section. I myself tried to add it various times () but {{u|Impru20}} argued at ] that it was not relevant to the article. I still think it should be included, I did not press my arguments at that time to avoid an edit war, but if you want we can try to reach a consensus with impru20 to add it back. --] (]) 09:10, 25 February 2018 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::I am Iñaki. On this particular issue, yes it does belong in another place. Crystallizedcarbon, a descriptive and constructive edit summary would have helped a lot (this article has a long history to realize the problems in the Edit summary). Edgarmm81, that was not very helpful. I bring here ] for everyone. ] (]) 10:18, 25 February 2018 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I think my edit summary did and do follow those guidelines. They explained the reasons for the edits and when that was not enough I expanded my arguments here. --] (]) 16:34, 25 February 2018 (UTC) | |||
| == Reversion by Crystallizedcarbon == | |||
| {{u|Crystallizedcarbon}} with thousands of additions and many references. Before starting an edit war, let's discuss them here. | |||
| I will try to explain every edit I did one by one and why: | |||
| * Removed: "and observed irregularities in the constitution of the electoral syndicate". That was an unreferenced sentence with not a lot of meaning for itself: what irregularities? only in the constitution or in the electoral syndicate itself? | |||
| * Added: I added a reference to the speech of the international observers and quoted some of their sentences. Can't understand how that is controversial at all considering it's a primary source. In addition, a primary source should take precedence over secondary sources like articles from El País or La Sexta. | |||
| * Added: "by the Spanish Constitutional Court". Don't see what is controversial about that, either. | |||
| * Removed: "being also illegal according to the Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia which requires a two third majority, 90 seats, in the Catalan parliament for any change to Catalonia's status". Unfortunately, I can't see that in any of the references attached to that sentence. | |||
| * Rephrased: "Due to the many irregularities in the administration of the vote..." Those irregularities were only reported by Spanish media, so I think it's better to rephrase it with "Some Spanish media denounced irregularities in the administration of the vote...". Also I don't think it make sense to explain that before the question of the referendum, the results and the participation. | |||
| * Added: "The Catalan government opened a bidding process to buy them but no offers were presented. The ballot boxes were finally bought by...". Any explanation about why was that removed? It's referenced and adds some info which didn't appear in the article before. | |||
| * Removed: "something which is out of the question in this case". Well, that's clearly an opinion so I think it should be removed. | |||
| * Removed: "Without an undisputed access to the electoral roll, the results may be deemed unreliable." Again, unreferenced sentence which looks more like an opinion than a fact. | |||
| * Replaced: "high-ranking persons, administrative staff, and company CEOs" → "high-ranking officials, administrative staff, and company CEOs". I think it's more precise. But might be wrong in this case. Maybe a native English speaker could help here. | |||
| * Added: "The Mossos d'Esquadra stated they weren't warned with enough time..." I think it's important to have both versions of what happened September 20th. | |||
| * Added: "Footage from that night..." Again, the article was only giving a single point of view on the issue. Adding a reference with the footage I think is good. Also, considering the United Nations and Amnesty International have published communicates regarding that demonstration, I think it's important to quote them in the article. | |||
| * Added: "after being fined with 12.000€ daily if they continued". It explains why the electoral board was dissolved. Again, I think it's an important information and I referenced it. | |||
| * Added reference to these sentences: "According to the Catalan government, the following people were entitled to vote in the referendum" and "The question of the referendum was asked "Do you want Catalonia to become an independent state in the form of a republic?"." The reference seems legit so I don't see why it should be removed. | |||
| * Removed link: ], it redirects to ], which is also in the "See also" section. I don't see the point on having them duplicated. | |||
| In addition to all of that, there were some grammatical mistakes fixes and some contents reordered to make it easier to read. | |||
| --] (]) 17:59, 12 April 2018 (UTC) | |||
| :{{Ping|Aljullu}} thank you for bringing it here. This page covers a controversial issue. There were extensive discussions and hard to reach consensus were made. Some parts of your edits changed those. I will review and try to answer one by one to each of your proposed changes and hopefully other editors will join in as well: | |||
| * Removed: "and observed irregularities in the constitution of the electoral syndicate". That was an unreferenced sentence with not a lot of meaning for itself: what irregularities? only in the constitution or in the electoral syndicate itself? | |||
| ::Since it is unsource I agree with you that it should not go in the lead so I have removed it, If other editors can add a reference and clarify can feel free to revert. | |||
| :Will continue...--] (]) 20:26, 12 April 2018 (UTC) | |||
| * Added: I added a reference to the speech of the international observers and quoted some of their sentences. Can't understand how that is controversial at all considering it's a primary source. In addition, a primary source should take precedence over secondary sources like articles from El País or La Sexta.: | |||
| :I have to dissagree. According to ]: | |||
| Misplaced Pages articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources. Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources. All analyses and interpretive or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary or tertiary source, and must not be an original analysis of the primary-source material by Misplaced Pages editors. | |||
| :I don't see a need to change the sources nor the wording as this is the lead and it also cites the use of force by the National police and Civil Guard. Probably not in the lead, but I think it is more relevant to include that the international observers where allegedly paid 119.700 euros by the organizers of the referendum after a budget of 200.000 was approved by the Generalitat. (sources: , ) --] (]) 21:01, 12 April 2018 (UTC) | |||
| * Added: "by the Spanish Constitutional Court". Don't see what is controversial about that, either. | |||
| :That the Constitutional Court was the court that suspended it was already mentioned in the paragraph above, so it is repetitive and the lead should be as brief whenever possible, but I agree with you that it is not controversial so If you still choose to make that particular edit I will not oppose it. --] (]) 21:13, 12 April 2018 (UTC) | |||
| * Removed: "being also illegal according to the Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia which requires a two third majority, 90 seats, in the Catalan parliament for any change to Catalonia's status". Unfortunately, I can't see that in any of the references attached to that sentence. | |||
| :Again I have to disagree according to the reference included in sentence by ]: "Catalonia’s own autonomy statute, which Mr Puigdemont’s law would replace, can only be amended by a two-thirds majority of its parliament." or by ]: "But the Catalan Statutes of Autonomy requires a two-third majority in the parliament for any change to Catalonia's status." --] (]) 21:24, 12 April 2018 (UTC) | |||
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Alleged irregularities
User Arjayay eliminated a sentence in which I stated that until now there is no evidence that the images of people voting more than once at this referendum are manipulated, without providing any proof that indicates the opposite. Unless he provides a reason for that I will redo the edition.
- @2a02:908:c61:6860:a17d:34d5:bf3a:2b20: Misplaced Pages does not work this way. Precisely, the issue with your sentence is that it is what you stated, providing no source to back it up, so what you did was just to add original research into the article. Information must come from verifiable reliable sources. Also, please note that you must not engage in edit warring, so unless you can cite reliable sources to back up your claims, I would highly discourage you from undoing Arjayay's edition. Impru20 16:47, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
I have to provide sources showing that there is no evidence of the images are not edited or manipulated? That doesn't make any sense. Anyway, I found several articles talking about some manipulated images allegedly about the day of the referendum, and none of them is one of the videos or images that show people voting twice, I guess that will do it. The fact that there is no evidence of that is informative, since as it is explained now it looks like it has been proved that what those images show is not possible, therefore they must be edited. But they aren't. And that fact says a lot about the nature of the referendum, therefore it's important to tell it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:908:C61:6860:10FE:E6A3:4F3F:A3FC (talk) 13:28, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
- You would have to show sources showing that image manipulation was an issue. By adding a sentence claiming that "Until now, there is no evidence that the images of people voting twice are manipulated", you are taking for granted that there is some manipulation issue, one which is not brought up nor sourced in the text elsewhere. You would need to prove that 1) there is controversy on the reliability of images of people voting twice; 2) that such controversy relates to the information which is sourced here; and 3) that these images were indeed not manipulated. Typically, here in Misplaced Pages we presume that what reliable sources state is true, so we would already assume that the images of people voting twice were not manipulated unless there are other sources which state that these were. Your claim has little sense here. Impru20 14:36, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
1) there is controversy on the reliability of the images, since the same wikipedia page claims that "Other media reported that it was not possible to vote twice". 2)The controversy relates to the information which is sourced here: it's about the validity of the voting system used that day. 3) these images were indeed not manipulated, since no one has been able to prove the opposite and they are not among the manipulated images shown in this website specialized in debunking fake news about politics, for example: https://maldita.es/maldito-bulo/cataluna-objetivo-de-los-bulos-en-el-2017-del-referendum-a-las-elecciones/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:908:C61:6860:7533:DF48:411E:C68B (talk) 20:34, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
He has a point, the existence of a system that "did not validate the second attempt" when voting doesn't prove that that system worked always, especially in an unofficial referendum. And the images of people voting more than once are there, they were reported in several media. I edit the text to include both facts.Guraat (talk) 01:50, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
But there's literally no proof for that, we still don't know what source do we have to ensure that "several people voted various times" Politonno (talk) 01:30, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
If our only sources are only photos, then we shouldn't be that sure of anything Politonno (talk) 01:32, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
POV
The article is too detailed, especially about the effects of the clashes, trying to sway the readers toward the independence POV aka narrative Zezen (talk) 15:17, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
Can someone fix the last sentence of 2020-2021 part?
it says that things may change from September 2021 onwards and it's 2023 2A02:2149:8659:A400:2836:744F:AE4E:62F6 (talk) 17:37, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
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