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See http://www.npl.co.uk/npl/reference/international.html for 1979 acceptance of L as well as l. ] 23:29 Feb 14, 2003 (UTC)
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==Anti-American bias==
The year of 1901 cannot be right, can it? I thought the Imperial gallon being defined by so and so measure of water was ''inspired'' by the metric definition of a litre, so it must have been at the start of the 18th century -- ]
It's fine for this article to be in British English for historical reasons, but it's not ok for it to exhibit unsourced and false prejudice. The spelling "liter" is . More individual countries may opt for the Franco-British spelling but Texas alone has more people than Australia; Alabama has more people than New Zealand; and the US prints more books and has more webpages as well.


There's a way to phrase the idea to get the same point across with less opprobrium, but "liter" is not "less common".&nbsp;—&nbsp;] 02:32, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
You are right: the litre is older than 1901. See the current article. -- ]
: Only Misplaced Pages editors get confused by "er" vs. "re", or missing/extra "u" or "i" in words. People who actually read the articles take about 300 milliseconds to recognize the alternative, and then get on with whatever they really came here to read about. More people speak English in India than in England, anyway. --] (]) 04:56, 13 June 2017 (UTC)


In my humble opinion, the best answer to that question was given 12 years ago: "''On the other hand, one could wonder whether American English really deserves to have different spellings for measures which Americans refuse to adopt. ;) - toh 16:20, 3 October 2005 (UTC)''" Quite charming! --] (]) 13:38, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
----
"true" -a person <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 13:38, 23 March 2021 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


You mean pro-American, as twice in the opening paragraphs we are pointlessly informed that one country spells it wrong.
Added kilolitre - my water bills in Australia used to measure consumption in kilolitres. - ] 12:54, Jan 28, 2004 (UTC)


== Circular dependency? == == External links modified ==


Hello fellow Wikipedians,
Nothing depends ON litre, so no matter what litre depends on, there cannot be any circular dependency, can it? --] 10:21, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
:Good point, removed this from the article. ] 18:57, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)


I have just modified one external link on ]. Please take a moment to review ]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
==Reasons for redefinition ==
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100527160710/http://ts.nist.gov/WeightsAndMeasures/Metric/upload/SP1038.pdf to http://ts.nist.gov/WeightsAndMeasures/Metric/upload/SP1038.pdf
Does anyone know why the litre was redefined in 1901? It doesn't make any sense to me, when you had a perfectly good definition based on the metre. ] 18:57, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
*Added {{tlx|dead link}} tag to http://2007.artsetmetiers.net/pdf/DEFPC_VG_COLLEGE.pdf


When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
::It was indeed rather senseless, IMHO, but the CGPM did finally come to their senses and "abrogate" that definition (that's how it is phrased in the legalese of their resolution).
::Originally, it was intended that the gram should be the mass of a cubic centimeter of water; so obviously the length standards were constructed first. But then, way back in 1799, the original platinum cylinder known as the Kilogramme of the Archives was constructed by the French government to serve as the mass standard. Since then, the definition of the kilogram has never been officially based on water.
::After the Metre Convention (or Treaty of the Meter) of 1875, the organizations known as the CGPM and BIPM were formed. They has a new set of international standards for the metre and the kilogram constructed, placing them in use in 1889. In constructing this new platinum-iridium International Prototype Kilogram and its siblings which serve as national standards, the target was the old French standard&mdash;not water.
::But by then, in the late 19th century, people had been able to make better measurements of the density of water, at its maximum density and throughout the temperature ranges of liquid water, and were well aware of the discrepancies between the actual kilogram, and what it would have been if the 18th century French technicians had been able to carry out these measurements more precisely in constructing their kilogram.
::Obviously, there were some users in the science who thought it was terribly important to have that exact relationship with water at its maximum density. So the CGPM let itself be talked into this hairbrained scheme of redefining the litre to make that true (I wouldn't call it that in the article, but am expressing my opinion of it here on the Talk pages).
::Note that this is a flip-flop of the original intention of defining the unit of mass based on the cube of the unit of length. In 1901, they instead redefined the unit of volume based on the unit of mass.
::Cubic centimeters, of course, remained the cube of the length units. So for a couple of generations or so, we students had to waste a lot of time learning that they were not the same thing as milliliters. Never mind that there had only been a handful of measurements in the history of the world where it ever made any difference.
::There was, of course, a similar discrepancy in the construction of the original metre, from their very good but not as good as today's efforts to measure the meridian quadrant, and as a result there are actually 10.002 Mm from the equator to the poles, rather than the intended 10 Mm exactly. Fortunatly, the CGPM never got talked into any scheme to add another new length unit to use alongside the metre, but equal to 1.0002 m.
::Note that I have removed an erroneous claim in the article as I found it that the intent in 1901 was that the 1901 definition would be the same as a cubic decimetre. It was well known that it would not, and that in fact was the entire purpose of that redefinition, to make it different from the cubic decimeter which for water never quite gets up to that 1.00000 kg level under one atmosphere of pressure, even at maximum density. ] 03:12, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)


{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}
==Symbol mL ==


Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 18:47, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
CGPM in 1979 said:
:considering further that in the future only one of these two symbols should be retained, invites the CIPM to follow the development of the use of these two symbols and to give the 18th CGPM its opinion as to the possibility of suppressing one of them.


== SI prefixes table - more often used terms in bold ==
The CIPM, in 1990, considered that it was still too early to choose a single symbol for the litre.


How was it decided which units were bolded to indicate they were more often used? I've never heard or seen hectolitre, decilitre, centilitre or microlitre in common usage but have heard and seen kilolitre, megalitre and gigalitre in common usage. ] (]) 00:08, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
The United States National Institute of Standards and Technology recommends the use of the uppercase letter L.


Would Americans say, "I gotta yottaliter - that's a lotta liters"? ] (]) 22:06, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
Uppercase L has become the preferred and more common symbol in US & Canada. It only makes sense that the others (mL) use capital too - otherwise there's confusion.


== The litre is not a metric unit ==
Are there any standard bodies recommending lowercase be retained?


Discuss. ] (]) 16:40, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
I'd say "the handwriting is on the wall" - there's not a chance in hell that lowercase will be the single symbol
:{{re|Dondervogel 2}} "]", as used in this article, redirects to "]", suggesting a metric unit is a unit of the metric system, and in that article it says of the metric system: "{{tq|It is now known as the International System of Units (SI)}}. Given that we know that the "litre" is a "non-SI unit", it follows that it's a non-metric-system unit too. Or is the "metric system" article wrong about that? -- ] (]). 18:06, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
--] 18:50, 2004 Dec 14 (UTC)
::The ] article also says {{tq|''Metric system'' may also refer to other systems of related base and derived units defined before the middle of the 20th century, some of which are still in limited use today}}. -] (]) 19:30, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
----
:::Very confusing, yes. -- ] (]). 20:02, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
:::: {{re|DeFacto}} That might be the case now, but you miss an important detail. The link I used was not to ] but to ]. That second article explicitly includes the litre in its list of metric units. Why? Because the litre is a metric unit. Period. ] (]) 20:42, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
:::::{{re|Dondervogel 2}} that's an annoying ] link though, and the first thing I did after clicking that was to find and click the first link to where the text led me to believe I would have been taken - to ]. The fact is, the articles are confusing, contradictory and unhelpful, and need tidying. -- ] (]). 20:57, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
:::::: {{re|DeFacto}} Here we agree. The links are indeed contradictory, and that is because the article ] conflates ] with ]. In reality, the set of SI units is a small subset of all metric units. The errors in that article need fixing but here we are discussing the litre, which remains a metric unit, regardless of what other articles might say about it. ] (]) 21:05, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
:::::::{{re|Dondervogel 2}} yes, fair comment - I agree. -- ] (]). 21:14, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
:::::::: Great. I'm glad we found common ground. ] (]) 10:20, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
:{{re|Dondervogel 2}} IMO a litre is a metric unit in the sense that it is/was a formal unit of an older system commonly known as "the metric system" in its time. All we need to do in this article is to make sure we identify the relationship of the litre to the SI, and we do that. The confusion is a matter of which tense , "is" or "was", should be used in an encyclopedic article, and that's messy. See ]. -] (]) 19:19, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
:{{re|Dondervogel 2}} I modified the wording of the hatnote, which was the very first prose in the article, to no longer call it "the metric unit". -] (]) 19:40, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
=== What a mess! ===
It seems we have 4 closely related articles:
* ]
* ]
* ]
* ]
In addition we have ], which redirects to ].
What we need is one article to describe the concept of a general metric unit, which could include some history and would include the litre. And a second one on the SI, which would exclude the litre. The other articles seem redundant to me. ] (]) 16:17, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
: I just edited ] so that it redirects to ] because that's the only one I could find that makes a distinction between metric units (which include the litre) and SI units (which do not). ] (]) 16:26, 11 January 2020 (UTC)


: I agree it's a mess, and there's "]" too. It'll be a big job to try and fix it though. Where do we start? Probably not here, in the "litre" article. :) -- ] (]). 18:01, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
==Fluid v. Solid==
:: I agree this is not the most obvious place, but I chose to make the point here to avoid a parallel discussion. How about we first agree (here) where best to take it and then move the discussion to that location? ] (]) 18:40, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
:: {{ping|Arch dude}} pinging Arch dude. ] (]) 18:42, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
:::The three of us might be able to bring some order to this chaos, but I'm a fairly haphazard editor with other interests. Perhaps we should propose a structure and then take it to the appropriate(?) Wikiproject to get more input? My own inclination is to make the SI article the master article, and point to the other articles from its brief overview subsections ("metric systems", "history", etc.) since GIPM specifically mentions litre, it gets included there, but only to say that it's a non-SI unit. -] (]) 19:19, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
:::: That makes sense. How about we post a message at ], making a case for creating a new article ] and deleting ], ] and ]. The contents of the 3 deleted articles could be merged into the remaining 3. ] (]) 20:32, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
::::: {{re|Dondervogel 2}} that sounds like a step in the right direction to me, as there doesn't seem to be a suitable (active) Wikiproject to take this to. -- ] (]). 07:06, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
:::::: Alternative suggestion: Might ] be a better place to post our message? They already have a discussion going on merging ] with ]. ] (]) 00:06, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
::::::: That looks like an appropriate, and article-independent, place to put it. I'd support that. -- ] (]). 07:11, 17 January 2020 (UTC)


=== Preparing comment to be posted at ] ===
Can anyone give a practical or commercial case in which the litre is used for solids?
{{ping|Arch dude}} {{ping|DeFacto}} Thoughts or suggestions for improvement? ] (]) 09:08, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
--] 18:50, 2004 Dec 14 (UTC)


==== Background ====
:Certainly. Grain might flow, but it is not a <i>fluid.</i> Same goes for blueberries (where in the U.S., the 1 pint packages also include 551 mL right on the label, for example). ] 20:58, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
A group of editors working at ] has identified the following closely related articles.
* ]
* ]
* ]
* ]
* ]
We feel there is too much duplication in these 5 articles. We also see a need for a new article ]. That new article could usefully include summaries of
* ]
* ]
* ]
* ]


==== Proposal ====
----
* Create new article ]
* Delete existing articles ], ], ], ]
* Merge material from deleted articles into ] or ] as approproriate.

==== Support ====
==== Oppose ====
==== Comments ====

:{{re|Dondervogel 2}} looks good to me. -- ] (]). 21:49, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
:: I posted the comment at ]. ] (]) 18:57, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

::: I've given up at ]. They either don't understand or are uninterested in the distinction between the metric system of units (arguably the SI) and the collection of all metric units (which ''includes'' the SI and many other metric units). Instead I have made a stub on my ]. Feel free to add suggestions of your own. ] (]) 12:56, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
::::Well done for trying. We'll just have to keep chipping away at it, and see how it goes. -- ] (]). 20:38, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
::::: I uploaded the article from my user page to ]. I'm not sure about the logarithmic units though. Perhaps they belong elsewhere - depends what one understands by a "metric" unit. See what you think. ] (]) 15:04, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

== What symbol should Misplaced Pages use for the litre? ==

If you have an opinion, please express it at this ]. ] (]) 07:43, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
It's acually "liter" <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 13:37, 23 March 2021 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

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Anti-American bias

It's fine for this article to be in British English for historical reasons, but it's not ok for it to exhibit unsourced and false prejudice. The spelling "liter" is more, not less, common than "litre". More individual countries may opt for the Franco-British spelling but Texas alone has more people than Australia; Alabama has more people than New Zealand; and the US prints more books and has more webpages as well.

There's a way to phrase the idea to get the same point across with less opprobrium, but "liter" is not "less common". — LlywelynII 02:32, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

Only Misplaced Pages editors get confused by "er" vs. "re", or missing/extra "u" or "i" in words. People who actually read the articles take about 300 milliseconds to recognize the alternative, and then get on with whatever they really came here to read about. More people speak English in India than in England, anyway. --Wtshymanski (talk) 04:56, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

In my humble opinion, the best answer to that question was given 12 years ago: "On the other hand, one could wonder whether American English really deserves to have different spellings for measures which Americans refuse to adopt. ;) - toh 16:20, 3 October 2005 (UTC)" Quite charming! --217.89.43.122 (talk) 13:38, 27 March 2018 (UTC) "true" -a person — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.168.214.70 (talk) 13:38, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

You mean pro-American, as twice in the opening paragraphs we are pointlessly informed that one country spells it wrong.

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SI prefixes table - more often used terms in bold

How was it decided which units were bolded to indicate they were more often used? I've never heard or seen hectolitre, decilitre, centilitre or microlitre in common usage but have heard and seen kilolitre, megalitre and gigalitre in common usage. GK1 (talk) 00:08, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Would Americans say, "I gotta yottaliter - that's a lotta liters"? Mike Spathaky (talk) 22:06, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

The litre is not a metric unit

Discuss. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 16:40, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

@Dondervogel 2: "metric unit", as used in this article, redirects to "metric system", suggesting a metric unit is a unit of the metric system, and in that article it says of the metric system: "It is now known as the International System of Units (SI). Given that we know that the "litre" is a "non-SI unit", it follows that it's a non-metric-system unit too. Or is the "metric system" article wrong about that? -- DeFacto (talk). 18:06, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
The metric system article also says Metric system may also refer to other systems of related base and derived units defined before the middle of the 20th century, some of which are still in limited use today. -Arch dude (talk) 19:30, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
Very confusing, yes. -- DeFacto (talk). 20:02, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
@DeFacto: That might be the case now, but you miss an important detail. The link I used was not to Metric system but to Outline of the metric system. That second article explicitly includes the litre in its list of metric units. Why? Because the litre is a metric unit. Period. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 20:42, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
@Dondervogel 2: that's an annoying WP:EGG link though, and the first thing I did after clicking that was to find and click the first link to where the text led me to believe I would have been taken - to metric system. The fact is, the articles are confusing, contradictory and unhelpful, and need tidying. -- DeFacto (talk). 20:57, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
@DeFacto: Here we agree. The links are indeed contradictory, and that is because the article metric system conflates metric units with SI units. In reality, the set of SI units is a small subset of all metric units. The errors in that article need fixing but here we are discussing the litre, which remains a metric unit, regardless of what other articles might say about it. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 21:05, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
@Dondervogel 2: yes, fair comment - I agree. -- DeFacto (talk). 21:14, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
Great. I'm glad we found common ground. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 10:20, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
@Dondervogel 2: IMO a litre is a metric unit in the sense that it is/was a formal unit of an older system commonly known as "the metric system" in its time. All we need to do in this article is to make sure we identify the relationship of the litre to the SI, and we do that. The confusion is a matter of which tense , "is" or "was", should be used in an encyclopedic article, and that's messy. See MOS:TENSE. -Arch dude (talk) 19:19, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
@Dondervogel 2: I modified the wording of the hatnote, which was the very first prose in the article, to no longer call it "the metric unit". -Arch dude (talk) 19:40, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

What a mess!

It seems we have 4 closely related articles:

In addition we have metric units, which redirects to International system of units. What we need is one article to describe the concept of a general metric unit, which could include some history and would include the litre. And a second one on the SI, which would exclude the litre. The other articles seem redundant to me. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 16:17, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

I just edited Metric units so that it redirects to Outline of the metric system because that's the only one I could find that makes a distinction between metric units (which include the litre) and SI units (which do not). Dondervogel 2 (talk) 16:26, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
I agree it's a mess, and there's "Introduction to the metric system" too. It'll be a big job to try and fix it though. Where do we start? Probably not here, in the "litre" article. :) -- DeFacto (talk). 18:01, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
I agree this is not the most obvious place, but I chose to make the point here to avoid a parallel discussion. How about we first agree (here) where best to take it and then move the discussion to that location? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 18:40, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
@Arch dude: pinging Arch dude. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 18:42, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
The three of us might be able to bring some order to this chaos, but I'm a fairly haphazard editor with other interests. Perhaps we should propose a structure and then take it to the appropriate(?) Wikiproject to get more input? My own inclination is to make the SI article the master article, and point to the other articles from its brief overview subsections ("metric systems", "history", etc.) since GIPM specifically mentions litre, it gets included there, but only to say that it's a non-SI unit. -Arch dude (talk) 19:19, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
That makes sense. How about we post a message at International system of units, making a case for creating a new article metric units and deleting Outline of the metric system, Metric system and Introduction to the metric system. The contents of the 3 deleted articles could be merged into the remaining 3. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 20:32, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
@Dondervogel 2: that sounds like a step in the right direction to me, as there doesn't seem to be a suitable (active) Wikiproject to take this to. -- DeFacto (talk). 07:06, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
Alternative suggestion: Might Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Physics be a better place to post our message? They already have a discussion going on merging Technical atmosphere with Kilogram-force per square centimetre. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 00:06, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
That looks like an appropriate, and article-independent, place to put it. I'd support that. -- DeFacto (talk). 07:11, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Preparing comment to be posted at WP:Physics

@Arch dude: @DeFacto: Thoughts or suggestions for improvement? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 09:08, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

Background

A group of editors working at Litre has identified the following closely related articles.

We feel there is too much duplication in these 5 articles. We also see a need for a new article Metric units. That new article could usefully include summaries of

Proposal

Support

Oppose

Comments

@Dondervogel 2: looks good to me. -- DeFacto (talk). 21:49, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
I posted the comment at WP:Physics. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 18:57, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
I've given up at WP:Physics. They either don't understand or are uninterested in the distinction between the metric system of units (arguably the SI) and the collection of all metric units (which includes the SI and many other metric units). Instead I have made a stub on my user page. Feel free to add suggestions of your own. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 12:56, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
Well done for trying. We'll just have to keep chipping away at it, and see how it goes. -- DeFacto (talk). 20:38, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
I uploaded the article from my user page to Metric units. I'm not sure about the logarithmic units though. Perhaps they belong elsewhere - depends what one understands by a "metric" unit. See what you think. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 15:04, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

What symbol should Misplaced Pages use for the litre?

If you have an opinion, please express it at this RFC. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 07:43, 28 February 2021 (UTC) It's acually "liter" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.168.214.70 (talk) 13:37, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Categories: