Misplaced Pages

Latest revision as of 11:34, 9 June 2018

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to University of the West Indies. Spartaz 11:34, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

University of the West Indies (Jamaica)

University of the West Indies (Jamaica) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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No individual notability exists for this campus. It is already mentioned at the article for the University of the West Indies, and this article is built on primary sources and a WP:COATRACK mention about something else. The subject of the article, under its correct title, is already a redirect to the University of the West Indies. Exemplo347 (talk) 09:31, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Caribbean-related deletion discussions. Exemplo347 (talk) 09:34, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Education-related deletion discussions. Exemplo347 (talk) 09:35, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. Exemplo347 (talk) 09:35, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

• Comment - I wondered this when I first saw the article, but didn't want to delete or nominate because of my previous history with the creator. After I tried to improve it, the content was changed, making it even less notable than it initially appeared. Deb (talk) 10:57, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

• Merge to University of the West Indies and develop there as the main "founding" campus of three campuses The content there barely makes a paragraph so that is already covered and referenced by the main campus article. If it becomes big enough to describe apart from the other campuses, then reconsider rename to University of the West Indies at Mona, but not for now. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 20:20, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
• Keep This is an utterly ridiculous nom and illustrates some of the ugly bias and bigotry we see on Misplaced Pages. A 70 year old university, one source says it was the first English language university in the Caribbean but I haven't verified, with a history dating further back to British estates awarded after the conquest of Jamaica in 1655 from Spain as well as major 19th century sugar plantations. And then it was used as a the site of a WWII evacuee camp and to hold internees. The nom has now resorted to removing the University's history in order to try and sustain his nomination to delete. Would we delete a 70 year old University in the U.S. or the U.K.? How about one on a site dating to an estate from the 1660s? One on the site where a camp held refugees during World War II? I think not. Sad really. FloridaArmy (talk) 00:05, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

"As you would have found out through proper research before starting your article, there's already an article about this university. I'm not sure why you started another. Add your information to the article that already exists at University of the West Indies. Exemplo347 (talk) 00:12, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

That article is about the UWI University system and not this University in Mona Jamaica in particular. It is part of that system, but is obviously independently notable. There's a book about its history. Loads of coverage. And of cpurse we need to add its establishment as a medical school, expansion, what areas of study are offered. Alumni. Etc. Etc. Let's get serious and stop wasting time with these frivolous Afd noms.FloridaArmy (talk) 00:36, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Striking off all comments in excess of the one-comment-per-AfD allowed for user FloridaArmy per this decision. -The Gnome (talk) 19:56, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Ok, FloridaArmy, I see what you are trying to do, but there are several issues. One, the sources should be reliable secondary sources, and only limited use of primary sources. Second, you're mixing in subjects previous to the start of the school... a little of which could be in notes or a background section, but you're peppering the article. If you think that notability can be established for a separate article for the refugee camp, that could work, but it shouldn't be mixed in this article, per WP:COATRACK, as Exemplo347 mentioned.

If you give me a little bit of time, I think I can clean it up to a workable starting place. Please read and comprehend the comments that are made in the edit summary.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:08, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Made edits above real quick, need to prove notability.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:10, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

The University was established at the Camp site. Camp buildings were used. It's part of the history and relegating it to a note at the end is clearpy improper. The aqueduct is on the campus property. So the plantation history and even earlier history is also relevant. And its covered as such in reliable independent sources. FloridaArmy (talk) 01:20, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Ok, FloridaArmy I checked out a similar situation. See University of Colorado Colorado Springs, which has one paragraph, no images, in one place so as to not distract from the true purpose of the article. It then links to another article that goes into more depth.

How about another couple of minutes?–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:29, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

FloridaArmy, I did my best to summarize the information. An initial thought is that the Mona, Jamaica article would be a great place to add the history of the area and the estates and Botanical Gardens... perhaps with redirects to specific sections. And, a section could also go there for the refugee camp, with a redirect. What do you think?–CaroleHenson (talk) 02:17, 31 May 2018 (UTC) See Mayfair#History for example.–CaroleHenson (talk) 02:56, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

CaroleHenson I agree with you. The main article about the Univ. of the West Indies already contains a section on its history & as Mona (in Jamaica) is the founding campus, it covers a lot of the info that FloridaArmy is trying to jam into this article. Ideally it should all be there in one place. I'll try and fill in any blanks in the main article later on & hopefully you won't be offended if bits of your hard work start moving across to the main article. As for the refugee camp universally known as Gibraltar Camp, I do think it'd make an interesting article all on its own. As for this article, it's unnecessary & no amount of scattergun editing by the creator will change that - hopefully they will start working with people instead of against them. Exemplo347 (talk) 07:49, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Exemplo347 Sounds like a good plan to me.–CaroleHenson (talk) 14:15, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

• Agree with the proposed approach. Deb (talk) 11:29, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
• Note The creator of the article is now under a community sanction preventing them from commenting here again. Exemplo347 (talk) 08:58, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

@Exemplo347: I hope you don't mind, but I've modified your comment to include a link to the exact wording of the restriction. I read your comment and was about to collapse FA's !vote and the subsequent discussion as being an irrelevant argument from a banned editor, but when I checked I noticed that the exact wording of the ban does allow for one comment: including the diff in your notification would prevent anyone from making the same mistake I almost did. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:50, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

• Keep The place is clearly notable as there's a book about it and there's plenty more to find such as the Jamaica Gleaner. The existence of other related pages with a wider or different scope is not a reason to delete – it's quite normal for there to be several pages about such a complex institution. For example, the place was, for a time, part of the University of London and we have numerous pages about that. Andrew D. (talk) 14:22, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Andrew Davidson, The link you provided was about the refugee camp, not the university campus. It is very helpful, though, for starting an article about the camp. For now, I will use it to start a section in the Mona, Jamaica article and perhaps someone may take it further to a full blown article. CaroleHenson (talk) 14:48, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Come on now Andrew D. - a primary source (the book's printed by the university) and an article that's about something else? Oh dear. Exemplo347 (talk) 15:57, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Pretty typical of Andrew's recent AFD comments, honestly. He's just Googling the name of the article and linking the first few items that show up, it seems. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if he was deliberately baiting the community into opening a discussion of whether he should be TBANned him from AFDs in general, though why he would want that escapes me -- maybe he thinks there are enough militant "keepist" editors who would auto-oppose that proposal that it would be shot down with a firm "consensus" that his edits are not disruptive? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:36, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

• Merge to University of the West Indies. I found just a little bit of useable information about the campus, and it seems that it makes most sense to merge the content into the main article. I will add a section for the campus, though, in the Mona, Jamaica article.–CaroleHenson (talk) 14:48, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

The Mona campus as well as the other campuses could be developed in Drafts if there are plans to introduce a lot more sourced content to the section. It depends if the other campuses are more like satellites to the main, or whether they are going to be standing on their own as part of a large system. For satellite campuses that are likely to be stub articles, the main article should focus on Mona. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 19:14, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

From what I've seen, the other campuses wouldn't even support stub articles, so it might be best to mention them in the main one. I'm not sure if anyone else has found anything better but it's all passing mentions & non-independent "come and study here" stuff. Exemplo347 (talk) 19:31, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree that theoretically it seems logical to have separate articles, but I absolutely don't think that there are enough sources. If you're really excited about the idea, I would recommend gathering reliable source for new encyclopedic content and see how many can be found. So far, I am not seeing it as a viable option.–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:38, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

• Merge WP:NOPAGE and all, best to merge it in even if it one could argue it passes the GNG Galobtter (pingó mió) 19:42, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
• Merge, without prejudice against splitting later, pending better sources demonstrating notability, at least enough to build a proper article. I'm a big advocate of articles on academic institutions, but while universities are generally notable by themselves, the same does not necessarily go for their individual campuses. Ritsumeikan University (Suzaku) is probably more "notable" than this school, but I can't imagine English Misplaced Pages ever having a standalone article on it because it's basically just an administrative office; as for this article, at present literally none of the text past the first sentence relates to the University of the West Indies, and University of London (Mona) would be a better title for the article as it is currently written. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:34, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
• Redirect Merge without prejudice, as per Hijiri88's reasoning Chetsford (talk) 09:22, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
• Note I have a question for all the Merge !voters and I know I'm going to sound like I'm being a difficult, belligerent fool when I ask it but never mind. What, exactly, are we going to be merging? All relevant content has already been placed into other articles (thanks to the hard work of CaroleHenson) so surely at this point, a redirect, preserving the history for attribution reasons, is the proper outcome? If not, this AfD will close as "Merge" and whoever has to perform the merge will simply look, see that the work has already been done and then turn it into a redirect anyway. It seems to me that a Merge is redundant at this point. If I'm confused, please do point it out, and I'm sorry if I sound like I'm being an ass. (Ping for the people who !voted Merge - AngusWOOF, CaroleHenson, Hijiri88, Chetsford & Galobtter) Exemplo347 (talk) 17:28, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Then the merge has been completed and it can be made into a redirect. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 17:32, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Good point and good question. I think the only nice addition would be an image of the campus, perhaps replacing a photograph of book shelves in the University of the West Indies#History section. I agree that since there is background information in Mona, Jamaica, the other content does not need to be moved over.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:34, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

CaroleHenson The only image I can see that isn't already in the main article is this one - would it be suitable? Exemplo347 (talk) 17:39, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that's the one I meant. I didn't see the chapel, either, but I meant the image you provided. Sorry I didn't provide a link to it.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:41, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

I've made that change as suggested. Regards Exemplo347 (talk) 17:45, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

On second thought, you're right. Since everything has already been merged there's no utility in that outcome for sake of process. A redirect would be preferable. Chetsford (talk) 17:37, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

I would say the answer to Exemplo's question (I haven't read any of the other responses yet) could be decided at a later date. The current title of this article is definitely worth at least a redirect, so the discussion of whether any of the "pre-UWI" history of the Jamaica campus is worth incorporating into the main UWI article can take place on that article's talk page with the history of this one still visible. If I had to say for certain now what I think should be merged, I would say none of it, pending at least one source that actually discusses what we have here as the "pre-history" if UWI. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:14, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

• Delete per nomination; alternatively, Merge into University of the West Indies. -The Gnome (talk) 19:53, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
• Keep. The article is well-sourced and describes a prominent Kingston landmark, which appears in general books on Kingston, like David Howard (2005) Kingston: A Cultural and Literary History and Harry S. Pariser (1990). Jamaica: A Visitor's Guide. That's not bad for an area of the world that tends to be under-represented on wiki. We have articles on individual buildings and even corridors in American universities, and of the individual colleges of Oxbridge, we can surely have articles for the campuses of a major Caribbean university too. Furius (talk) 11:05, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

This can still be merged into the UWI article to cover the main campus. The article as is covers just a paragraph on its history. There isn't enough information at this point to create 3 split campus articles. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 17:50, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

I struggle to believe that, when there is a whole book on this campus (granted that UWI published it, but the main University of the West Indies page also uses it as a source so clearly it is being treated as reliable).Furius (talk) 20:31, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.