Talk:Ebionites: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 03:08, 2 November 2006 editIgnocrates (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users11,170 edits →The Way Forward (from peer review)← Previous edit		Latest revision as of 11:49, 28 June 2024 edit undoLoremaster (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers55,220 editsm →Robert Eisenman
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			== This article has an unclear citation style ==
	'''According to a Misplaced Pages rule of thumb: 1) if something is in ''See also'', try to incorporate it into main body 2) if something is in main body, it should not be in ''See also'' and therefore 3) good articles have no ''See also'' sections.''' --] 01:29, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
	Shalom Loremaster,

			I suggest that all contributors to the ] article follow the example of the ] article when it comes to notes, citations and sources from now on. So we have a lot of work to do. —-] (]) 15:53, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
	:Articals explaining offical Misplaced Pages policy have "see also" sections.] 00:13, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

			== No primary sources ==
	::I know. However, I have a spoken to Misplaced Pages administrators about this issue and I've confirmed that this rule of thumb is an unofficial policy that is highly recommended. --] 02:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

			Here we have an article about a "group of Christians" that are devoid of any primary sources. I notice one contributor is obsessed with the "bloodline theory of Jesus Christ" as found in the book "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail" even though it had nothing to do with Pierre Plantard and the Priory of Sion, and Plantard distanced himself from the nonsense in late 1982 on a French radio programme. Also Plantard actively criticised the book from 1989 onwards. The subject matter has been dead in France for ages. Plantard was a spent force in 1989 when his latest manifestation of the Priory of Sion was responsible for the final demise of Pierre Plantard, who died in 2000. It's only the British people that ever became obsessed with "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail". Plantard himself had no interest in the "Jesus Bloodline" from the get-go because he was an old-fashioned French Roman Catholic, as can be gleaned from his works and writings. ] (]) 07:47, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
	==Toward Peer Review==

			:As the Misplaced Pages article on the ] clearly states in the introduction section: "Since historical records by the Ebionites are scarce, fragmentary and disputed, much of what is known or conjectured about them derives from the polemics of their Gentile Christian opponents, specifically the Church Fathers." This fact has never prevented numerous respected secular and religious encyclopedias of having entries on the subject of Ebionites.
	I am now satisfied with the . --] 17:34, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

			:As I suggested 4 years ago, the Ebionites article has an unclear citation style. We should all focus on improving it, which means, among other things, making proper use of primary sources (the Church Fathers and the Jewish-Christian gospels) when and where needed.
	:I am also satisfied with the . I will initiate the ] process. Thanks ], for your efforts to make this article into a candidate for ] status. ] 18:42, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

			:That being said, you are the one who is obsessed with ] since no one here currently believes in the Priory of Sion myth of Pierre Plantard nor the conspiracy theories of the authors of <i>The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail</i>. I've been watching over the ] article for years to ensure, among other things, that readers know that the Priory of Sion has been thoroughly debunked as a hoax.
	:::You're welcome. --] 19:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

			:However, what you seem to fail to understand is that the uncontroversial notion that James the Just is the biological brother (or half-brother) of Jesus is NOT related to unfounded speculation of a Jesus bloodline from Mary Magdalene. (For the record, I personally think that Jesus didn't father any biological children due to a vow of celibacy because of his belief that marriage would cease to exist in the Kingdom of God on Earth, and his alleged promotion of ]s as role models.)
	:::I will continue to make some minor edits to the article but nothing that will change it's structure or core content. --] 17:27, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

			:Bottom line: Please avoid engaging in unprovoked and absurd personal attacks against contributors to the Ebionites article. --] (]) 14:14, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
	'''See ]'''

			::FYI: You'll be happy to know that the mention of ″relatives of Jesus″ (which could be misinterpreted as promoting the hypothesis of Jesus bloodline from Mary Magdalene) has now been deleted from the Ebionites article. --] (]) 09:26, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
	:I have just made a series of suggestions here ] \| ] 20:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
	::Thank you. --] 21:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

			== Robert Eisenman ==
	] I suggest we reserve this page for disussions relating to peer review and follow-up work resulting from the peer review. I suggest moving the last two sections discussing editorial changes made prior to the peer review to Archive 2. I would move the rant about changes to the archived pages to Archive 1, where it can be combined with all the other POV material. ] 02:05, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

			Fringe. His works on The Dead Sea Scrolls are rightfully rejected. He is a Muslim by faith. ] (]) 07:52, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
	:Agreed. Done. --] 02:27, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

			:I hope you are not suggesting that someone's Muslim faith (or Jewish faith or liberal Christian faith or lack of faith) automatically prevents him or her from doing good scholarship on Christianity... That being said, although I'm not a fan of Robert Eisenman's works, we cannot deny or suppress the fact that he is among the few modern scholars who have written on the subject of Ebionites. Furthemore, although one of Eisenman's book is used as a source, the article does not discuss the Dead Sea Scrolls nor link them to the Ebionites. --] (]) 14:28, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
	::Its interesting that actual discussion about changes to the artical you call rants. then archiving it by moving it to a different section only makes for confusion. Do smoke screens and confusion work in your favor?] 00:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

	:::Whether they are rants or not, I only archive discussions that have ended and disputes have been resolved. Anyone can easily find and read the archives so my acts cannot be interpreted as some attempt to limit your freedom of speech. --] 16:11, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

	'''The peer review has been archived. It contains several ideas we can use to improve the Ebionites article.''' --] 14:26, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
	==Please Don't Fix==
	Please Don't fix, since the article on both the Ebionites and the Ebionite Jewish Community represents a typical suppression of both historical facts and quotes, and the castration of reference materials because of political pressure. I have begun to use the suppression of the facts as an example of how references resoureces are castrated in order to suppress the Truth which you can review at http://TheThreeLies.com#TrueProphet . This is an important lesson for seekers of Truth to recognize, and I can therefore use this article and the main Ebionite article of a prime example of this fact and reality. -- Nazirene
	--] 13:49, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

	:Naz-- I'm sorry you feel like your thoughts are being suppressed-- please understand that it's nothing personal, is in no way related to the content of your belief-- only to the lack of sources. That said-- just because the page on your movement got deleted, that's no reason the effort to improve THIS page shouldn't move forward as per the peer review. --] 14:21, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

	:I agree with Alecmconroy. --] 21:16, 28 October 2006 (UTC)


	:Reply From Nazirene :Greetings Alecmconry: It is not so much my thoughts -- but important spiritual concepts that must be re-established in our present time in order to move beyond man's present spiritual quagmire. In this time of world struggle, it is not enough to simply say: Give peace a chance. Or, why don't we all just get along. In order to have tolorance and peace, it is necessary to manifest higher levels of mind and being, and these higher centers of mind must be nourished with spiritual manna. In the beginning of the above article on The Three Lies http://TheThreeLies.com , I demonstrate that once you move beyond the allegory of the written word, Judaism and Christianity are one and the same. While it is proven that Jesus is the fulfillment of Spiritual Israel, it is also proven that Christianity is a paganization of that Truth. And Islam which was conceived out of the bed-rock of the Ebionites and Gnostic Nestorian Monks who were banished from the Roman Empire, holds the key to understanding the Qur'an. It is important for the people to understand that the Disciples of Jesus who were Ebionites, knew the Truth by virtue of the experiential knowledge received by passing through an inner portal to the Kingdom within which Jesus declared (see http://GateOfEden.com ). And that is why when he was asked when the Kingdom would come upon the earth as carnal Jews and Christians expect, he said that the external Armegeddon will never happen. It is important to understand that Mohammed in the portrayal of the cave in the mountain of Light, allegorically portrayed this same inner journey in TheWay. And that the Journey by night to the Distant Mosque -- in the Mecca that is not of this world -- is this same allegorical presentation that is portrayed in the parable of the prodigal son, or Plato's Cave (see http://DivineStrategery.com#Plato ). Notice also that in the account of Plato, those who escape the illuion of the Cave -- which is the illusion of this world -- are looked upon as madmen. But in our present time the Dead Sea Scrolls and Nag Hammadi Library are just the beginning, and there is much more yet to come. The problem with resource writings such as Misplaced Pages and the Britannica, is seen in the fact that it is typically written by linear minded people who only perceive life in a straight line. And the fact that most intuitively polarized people who are able to sense beyond the barrier of what is portrayed as Plato's Cave are for the most part only partially developed, and have great difficulty in portraying their intuitively received impressions in a manner that others will understand, this inability to make linear sense kind of supports the linear vision of life. So it is not your fault as people who are acclamated to this type of pursuit to question the validity of the mystical. And while there are exceptions, even these few have great difficulty expressing themselves in a manner that most linear minded people will understand. I am different, because I was able to initiate mystical experiences where I succeeded in transporting my linear perception out of what is portrayed as Plato's Cave, and I have been able to fully observe this inner reality, and take the knowledge back with me into the body. It has to do with what the Church Father Origen stated that each "soul is... is weakened by the defeats, or strengthened by the victories, of it's previous lifetimes". Also, I knew the esoteric alchemical knowledge of how to condition the physical body-vessel to make it support this inner spiritual knowledge of the Kingdom. Jesus taught that there is One Teacher -- and all his followers were to learn from that One Teacher, in contradistinction to the rabbis and teachers of this world. And this One Teacher was portrayed as the True Prophet within. And this reality is not easily grasped by linear minded people -- regardless of their level of intelligence. And this is why most Mystics will tell you that you have to go beyond the limitations of mind in your pursuit of Truth. And in opposition to this traditional mysticism perspective, I disagree with that position -- stating instead that the body must be prepared in order to manifest those higher area of mind beyond the 10% that is supported by the physical -- and by doing this you will expand the consciousness, and begin to learn from the One Teacher that Jesus taught was the only True Source of Knowledge. And this is the essence of Kabbalah, the core of the teachings of Jesus and TheWay, and what Mohammed attempted to re-establish, before his own writings were corrupted in the same manner as was the Bible. And thus, the present world conflict is being fueled by what will end up as a restoral of the teachings of Jesus and TheWay, and the core of these teachings are the suppressed quotations on the Ebionites. Which means that to accomplish this spiritual end, it will have to be explained why these core teachings are suppressed by most of the reference resources. It is not personal -- and I apologize if you think it is -- just merely part of the portrayal of the facts as to why most reference resources can't be relied upon to portray the concepts of the mystical inner path. --]

	::As I've said in the past, I can't debate you on religion or philosophy, so I can't really closely read through all that, but I don't see anything that should preclude Loremaster and Ov from proceeding to work on improving the article in the directions suggested by the peer review. --] 14:31, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

	== Bugged? ==

	The Ebionites and Ebionite Jewish Community articles and talk pages may be bugged with some kind of Trojan Horse. My user talk page is affected as well. It looks like some kind of redirect, judging by the warning messages I am seeing. I'm having WP:AN/I look into it. I wonder who has an interest in the Ebionites and EJC articles and my talk page combined with the technical expertise to do such a thing? ] 21:52, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

	:Sounds like your computer got some issue-- I'm very, very, very skeptical that anyone could hack Misplaced Pages. I'm able to view these pages without problems. --] 22:42, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

	::I only saw it happen on one computer, so you may be right. Still, it's funny that only those pages were affected. I could view them. What was new was a warning that the page may not be safe. I'll keep monitoring and testing. ] 02:15, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

	== The Way Forward (from peer review) ==

	Now that we have taken a bit of a break, I thought I would get things rolling. UberCyrix had some questions about sources as follows:

	1. ''There are some claims in there that definitely appear sketchy to average readers....like...."Accordingly they dispossessed themselves of all their goods and lived in communistic societies"

	2. "While Ebionites undoubtedly drew their doctrines from ideas circulating in the 1st century CE, Judeo-Christian origins scholar Robert Eisenman argues that they existed as a distinct group from Pauline Christians and Gnostic Christians before the destruction of Jerusalem," among many others.''

	Can we identify the sources of these entries and provide citations? Any others? Let's nail down our source material before we take on organization and style issues. ] 01:04, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

	:1.
	:2. Eisenman, Robert. James the Brother of Jesus: The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of Early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls. New York: Viking, 1996
	:--] 01:46, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

	::Thanks. That was quick!

	How do you feel about UberCyrix's other suggestion:

	''The section Ebionite writings should be written in ], not lists. Same thing with the Sources section.''

	There is content overlap between Sources and Writings. The summary style comment may reflect a preference for inline citations. ] 03:08, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

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This article has an unclear citation style

I suggest that all contributors to the Ebionites article follow the example of the Gospel of the Ebionites article when it comes to notes, citations and sources from now on. So we have a lot of work to do. —-Loremaster (talk) 15:53, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

No primary sources

Here we have an article about a "group of Christians" that are devoid of any primary sources. I notice one contributor is obsessed with the "bloodline theory of Jesus Christ" as found in the book "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail" even though it had nothing to do with Pierre Plantard and the Priory of Sion, and Plantard distanced himself from the nonsense in late 1982 on a French radio programme. Also Plantard actively criticised the book from 1989 onwards. The subject matter has been dead in France for ages. Plantard was a spent force in 1989 when his latest manifestation of the Priory of Sion was responsible for the final demise of Pierre Plantard, who died in 2000. It's only the British people that ever became obsessed with "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail". Plantard himself had no interest in the "Jesus Bloodline" from the get-go because he was an old-fashioned French Roman Catholic, as can be gleaned from his works and writings. Octavius88 (talk) 07:47, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

As the Misplaced Pages article on the Ebionites clearly states in the introduction section: "Since historical records by the Ebionites are scarce, fragmentary and disputed, much of what is known or conjectured about them derives from the polemics of their Gentile Christian opponents, specifically the Church Fathers." This fact has never prevented numerous respected secular and religious encyclopedias of having entries on the subject of Ebionites.

As I suggested 4 years ago, the Ebionites article has an unclear citation style. We should all focus on improving it, which means, among other things, making proper use of primary sources (the Church Fathers and the Jewish-Christian gospels) when and where needed.

That being said, you are the one who is obsessed with flogging a dead horse since no one here currently believes in the Priory of Sion myth of Pierre Plantard nor the conspiracy theories of the authors of The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail. I've been watching over the Priory of Sion article for years to ensure, among other things, that readers know that the Priory of Sion has been thoroughly debunked as a hoax.

However, what you seem to fail to understand is that the uncontroversial notion that James the Just is the biological brother (or half-brother) of Jesus is NOT related to unfounded speculation of a Jesus bloodline from Mary Magdalene. (For the record, I personally think that Jesus didn't father any biological children due to a vow of celibacy because of his belief that marriage would cease to exist in the Kingdom of God on Earth, and his alleged promotion of eunuchs as role models.)

Bottom line: Please avoid engaging in unprovoked and absurd personal attacks against contributors to the Ebionites article. --Loremaster (talk) 14:14, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

FYI: You'll be happy to know that the mention of ″relatives of Jesus″ (which could be misinterpreted as promoting the hypothesis of Jesus bloodline from Mary Magdalene) has now been deleted from the Ebionites article. --Loremaster (talk) 09:26, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Robert Eisenman

Fringe. His works on The Dead Sea Scrolls are rightfully rejected. He is a Muslim by faith. Octavius88 (talk) 07:52, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

I hope you are not suggesting that someone's Muslim faith (or Jewish faith or liberal Christian faith or lack of faith) automatically prevents him or her from doing good scholarship on Christianity... That being said, although I'm not a fan of Robert Eisenman's works, we cannot deny or suppress the fact that he is among the few modern scholars who have written on the subject of Ebionites. Furthemore, although one of Eisenman's book is used as a source, the article does not discuss the Dead Sea Scrolls nor link them to the Ebionites. --Loremaster (talk) 14:28, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

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