User talk:Jaakko Sivonen: Difference between revisions

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			after that consensus has finally been reached for this article some months ago, a user changed the article again in the sense opposite to consensus today: moreover, he introduced also factual errors which cannot be corrected since he keeps reverting to his version. Can you please have a look at it? Thanks, ] (]) 12:33, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
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			:The problem has been solved thanks to an good-will admin, thanks anyway! ] (]) 14:15, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
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	I hope you enjoy editing here and being a ]! Please ] on talk pages using four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out ], ask me on my talk page, or place <code><nowiki>{{helpme}}</nowiki></code> on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!  —] <sup>]</sup> <sup>]</sup> 00:14, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

			Hallo ]</br>, thanks for your intervention, but now we have the same problem (with the same user) at ]: it is like trying to empty the ocean with a spoon... :-( ] (]) 06:28, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
	== Re: 5.5 % speak Swedish in Finland ==

			== Faster on the draw ==
	No you have understood the intention of my reverts quite wrong. I reverted them because when you present statistical data you, in a mathematical sence and therefor as a rule of statistics, have to keep all data at the same precision in case it is data that eliminates the other data. You can't eg. say. 92,76 % of the people in some group wear a hat and 9% don't.

			Funny we both went in the same direction. I put up a ] complaint just now; I hadn't seen yours. Thanks for being on it. It's funny, I think I have a 3RR suspension somewhere back in the mists of time. A mark of my ill-spent youth, perhaps. ] (]) 11:50, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
	So if you want to change 6% to 5,5 you also have to change 92% to the correct value at the precision of one decimal.

			== EP Group ==
	Also when it comes to such large figures it is usually customary to keep to a zero decimal precision, but this is neither what i primarily objected to.
			According your definition ((only) Right-wing populism) the Finns Party is on the same step like the The Austrian Freedom Part, UK Independence Party, Geert Wilders Party for Freedom. or the Lega Nord. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 20:29, 15 August 2014 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			:Well, the party was in the same EP Group (EFD) with UKIP and Lega Nord for five years. The party openly calls itself populist, so that part is not in question. The right-wing part can be debated. The party has some right-wing tendencies, but it also has left-wing tendencies. It's a complicated issue. I probably wouldn't have reverted if removing that category was the only thing you did. --] (]) 22:02, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

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			== ] ==
	==Finnish People==
	Misplaced Pages is meant to be a neutral encyclopedia. Based on your history of edits, you seem to use it for a personal crusade against everything Swedish. You have to conform to NPOV and stop inserting bold claims without sources. If you disagree with what other people write, that's fine. In that case, use the talk page to argue your case and use sources to back up the claims you make. To accuse others of vandalism, as you did to ], just because you don't agree with their views is not in accordance with Misplaced Pages policies. ] 11:58, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
	:Epf was trying to bring in his own opinions of Finnish origin, claiming that we are not the original people of Finland. I would say that that is non-NPOV and as such, vandalism. --] 15:10, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

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	==Vandalism==
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	You have taken to an unpleasant tactic of accusing anyone who disagrees with you of vandalism. You accused ] when he disagreed with you. What he in fact did was to change a paragraph lacking any sources to another one that was backed up with sources. Regardless of whether you disagree with him or not, you cannot possibly call that vandalism. In the past few days, you have issued warnings of vandalism to a number of users. What these users have done is to restore the information box at ] to the template used in every other article on different peoples. Let me be very clear here, editing out your own edits so that the information box looks as it previously did is not vandalism. Please try to engage in discussions in a constructive way in the future and argue for your views on the talk pages. ] 08:55, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

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	==Final warning==
	One more personal attack, or an abusive edit summary will result in a report which will likely lead to a block. Please reconsider your attitude. --] 17:35, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
	:I wouldn't have to call people idiots if they would read the arguments, but no: you just reverted without any counter-argument and without any knowledge of Finnish history. That is called vandalism and consider this your final warning. --] 17:46, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

			{{Ivmbox\|Hello, Jaakko Sivonen. Voting in the ''']''' is open from Monday, 00:00, 21 November through Sunday, 23:59, 4 December to all unblocked users who have registered an account before Wednesday, 00:00, 28 October 2016 and have made at least 150 mainspace edits before Sunday, 00:00, 1 November 2016.
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	I have blocked you for persistant incivility. See:--] 20:05, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

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	== Image ==
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	Sinä kun näistä asioista olet sotvannut niin katso mitä ]ssa on.--] (]) 11:41, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
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	:Kiitos, poistin kuvan. --] 11:48, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
	::It is not considered polite to use foreign languages in this Anglophone project. Please translate or you will be reported. --<font color="FC4339">]</font> <sup><font color="C98726">]</font></sup> 12:46, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
	::: Hehe, says Mr. who has several cyrillic Russian messages in his talk page. :) Anyway, I was just saying that he might want to check it out as he has valid source and point for that image. I'm just tired of edit warring so I don't bother really much.. --] (]) 14:17, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

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			{{Ivmbox\|Hello, Jaakko Sivonen. Voting in the ''']''' is now open until 23.59 on Sunday, 10 December. All users who registered an account before Saturday, 28 October 2017, made at least 150 mainspace edits before Wednesday, 1 November 2017 and are not currently blocked are eligible to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.
	Jaakko, I see that you engage in tendentious editing. Please reconsider. This is particularly disturbing. Could you explain why you insist on adding ] to ], when it is already part of ]? It is easy to see that the latter category is part of the former; and ] deprecates double categorization. As for the rest of your edits, they are in violation of ]. There have been many discussions on naming issues. You may want to check ] to get some idea of it. The consensus is to use, in historical contexts, those names that were official at the period. For instance, we don't say that ] lived in ]. To talk about the ] during WWII is also misleading. If the castle was built by the Swedes and was used by the Swedish government, its name should be rendered in Swedish. Another option is to use Russian, because the castle has been part of Russia during the last three centuries. I don't see any basis for forcing Misplaced Pages to prefer Finnish spellings there. If you don't reconsider you activities, more blocks may ensue. Take care, <font color="FC4339">]</font> <sup><font color="C98726">]</font></sup> 12:46, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
	:About the category - OK. About Finnish/Swedish names: it is the policy to use the name of the city's majority's language (cities grew around all castles mentioned) which was Finnish. I at least demand that both names be used: Turku/Åbo etc.. It doesn't matter that it was built on the orders of Swedish crown: the Isthmus' population was Finnish. You on the other hand insist calling the Grand Duchy of Finland a puppet state and Russian-controlled. It had major privileges and autonomy compared to other areas in the Russian Empire. --] 12:58, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
	::I don't insist on calling a part of the Russian Empire its puppet state, because its status is evident without my opinions. As for your assertion that "it is the policy to use the name of the city's majority's language" (we talk about Middle Ages here), I would appreciate a detailed quotation and link to the policy you have in mind. Thanks, <font color="FC4339">]</font> <sup><font color="C98726">]</font></sup> 13:00, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
	:::Well, ] has a Finnish speaking majority, thus it's primary name in en.wiki is the Finnish form Vaasa, not the Swedish Vasa. Vaasa is also used in the city's history part in the article in the time of the Swedish rule in Finland. And as you can see the same applies to ] (look at history). --] 14:30, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

			The ] is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the ]. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose ], ], editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The ] describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.
	==Russophobia==
	:My dear friend AN/I is not the place to tattle. First of all if you believe the image is dubious the first place to go is the talk page of the article and explain why you think, then modify the caption with something like ''this image is believed to be forged(ref)''. Partisan blanking '''IS''' vandalism. Please re ]. Oh and btw I am not a nationalist. --] ] 13:09, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
	::Now you can see it in the talk page - and I gave the source initially also. --] 13:10, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
	:::That is not the correct way to approach wikipedia, please stop edit warring promprtly. {{unsigned\|Kuban kazak}}

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	I know little about the content issues you are dealing with, but you just came off a block and are now engaging in issues that are obviously heated for you and others. I have been requested to ask you to calm down please and try to not let the arguments get too heated. If you remain civil, and ensure your arguments are backed up by reliable references, then no one will be able to argue with you. Thanks.--] 14:21, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
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	==What's this nonsense==
	''Crucial, basic information like this must be presented right in the beginning, in the box. I don't want people to think the situation like it is in Wales where the invader's language is the bigger''
	:I'd like to know why you think that English is dominant in Wales because it is an ''invaders language''. This displays a beathtaking lack of knowledge of Welsh history. Please don't make incorrect statements like this. English became the dominant language in Wales less than 100 years ago, without anyone forcing the change on the population. To express it in terms of ''invaders'' is to show that you know '''' all about the subject. ] 18:19, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
	::I admit that I do not know that much about Welsh history, but the point is that English was not the original language of the Welsh people but nowadays it is dominant. I was comparing this to Finland where the people were able to keep their native language dominant. Main point is that the English were initially invaders and the Welsh didn't speak English before the English arrived and most probably wouldn't speak nowadays if they would not have arrived when they did. --] 21:31, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

			{{Ivmbox\|Hello, Jaakko Sivonen. Voting in the ''']''' is now open until 23.59 on Sunday, 3 December. All users who registered an account before Sunday, 28 October 2018, made at least 150 mainspace edits before Thursday, 1 November 2018 and are not currently blocked are eligible to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.
	*''English were initially invaders''
	:No they weren't. This is the whole point. The ] and '''they spoke French'''. The fact that Welsh people speak English and not French shows that they did not take up the language of the invaders. Welsh remained the dominant language in Wales for another 850 years. Welsh people started to speak English for social reasons not political/racial or ethnic ones. ] 05:18, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

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	== Blocked 24 hours ==

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	I have blocked you 24 hours, as described on ]. / ]-] 21:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
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	: To anyone reviewing the block, I have mentioned the block on the ], so please see that page first. / ]-] 22:02, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

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	::This user is trying to spread non-NPOV propaganda . --] 16:00, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
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	I have replaced this block with a fresh block of 24 hours duration for move warring. See ]. --] (]) 00:45, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
	:You did not answer any of my arguments. The facts are: 1) ] is and was then too unilingually Finnish speaking city. Hamina is the title of the article of the city, as it should be, why not then also the title of the treaty that was signed in the city? 2) Hamina was not a part of Sweden in 1809, it had not been since 1743. 3) This treaty ended the Swedish reign in Finland for good and it's more important in Finnish history than in Swedish. I have heard '''no''' counter-arguments to these, none. Instead I have heard ] directed at me. --] 15:20, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
	::Jaakko, you have been repeatedly advised to consult our naming policies. We use that placename which was considered official in the given historical period. Not Siege of St. Petersburg, but Siege of Leningrad. Not Battle of Kaliningrad, but Battle of Konigsberg. Not Siege of Gdansk but Siege of Danzig. The official name of Hamina (both in Sweden and in Russia) in 1809 was Frederikshamn. Case closed. --<font color="FC4339">]</font> <sup><font color="C98726">]</font></sup> 15:28, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::As far as I know the Russian name was Friedrichshame (someone said that in the article's talk page). The title should be in the language of the majority and the original population, not in the language of invaders (Russians '''and''' Swedes alike). Anything else is racism. Also note that the article ] (in the same year) uses the Finnish name. --] 15:35, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::BTW I would appreciate it if you would refrain from ] against me. --] 15:38, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::That goes for you too, fellow compatriot ;) Profanity and calling people isn't really considered constructive behaviour here. Please check ]. Cheers, ] 08:57, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

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	== Violation of NPOV ==
			</td></tr>
	Just to remind you once again, this in an encyclopedia and it should be NPOV. At the moment, you're lacking NPOV in your edits of historical names of places. The pattern is this:
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	1. If the city has a Finnish majority today (such as Helsinki/Helsingfors or Turku/Åbo), you edit out the Swedish name even when refering to the cities at the time when Swedish dominated in them.
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	2. If the city doesn't have a Finnish majority today (such as Vyborg/Viipuri) but once did, you edit out the Russian name when refering to the city during its time as a Finnish city.
	Now it's time to make up your mind. You could go for the principle to follow present-day majorities or for the principle to follow historical majorities. Both of those options would be NPOV if you used them consistently. To do as you do now, apply different criterias just so you can use the Finnish name all the time, is nationalistic POV. ] 17:42, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
	:I will never call Viipuri by its Russian name because the Russkies took it illegally by war and there is no justification for it being a part of Russia. See ]. Btw, Turku had always a Finnish speaking majority, during the Swedish reign too. And all of Finland was unilingually Finnish before the Middle Ages. Have you ? --] 23:41, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

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	::Sure, occupation is illegal in a way. Just a shame that most countries in Europe have had their borders defined by wars, Viipuri is not different from tons of other towns and cities. The Finnish city Viipuri was taken from Finland by force and today is the Russian city of Vyborg. Swedish cities like Helsingfors and Åbo were taken from Sweden by force and today are the Finnish cities Turku and Helsinki. So once again, you follow principles of nationalism and bias, not NPOV.
	::(As for the claims that Turku has always been Finnish speaking and Finland was monolingual, lol. To funny to merit a discussion.) ] 12:06, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::Yes, Turku had always a majority of Finnish speakers and there were no Swedish speakers in Finland prior to Swedish invasion. You must provide a source if you claim otherwise. Helsinki and Turku were not Swedish cities. And I will always refer to Finnish cities by Finnish names, including Maarianhamina and Närpiö etc. (and also ]). --] 16:28, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::Of course Helsinki and Turku were Swedish cities before 1809 just as much as Viipuri was Finnish in 1939. If a city is founded by Swedes, inhabited by Swedes and situated in the Kingdom of Sweden, well, to most of us it's a Swedish city. And nobody cares even if you use Swahili names for towns in Finland. Just not here. This is an encyclopedia. People who read articles here are interested in knowing the NPOV facts. You try to force your own nationalistic bias on them, even when you know it's wrong. You know very well that Vyborg, Mariehamh, Närpes etc are the official names in English for those cities. That you don't like it doesn't change the fact.
	::::When the first Swedish speakers came to Finland is an open discussion among historians, most of them giving a date between 100BC and 1250AD. As long as even the historians cannot know for sure, neither you nor I know either. We all know what you want to believe, but that's something different. And just because there might have been no Swedish speakers in the territory now known as Finland, it does not mean that the area was monolingually Finnish as Sámi was spoken over a much larger area than today in all Nordic countries. ] 09:12, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

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	Try to count to ten before you answer and keep a civilized discussion tone. Your do reveal a lot about your intentions and your hatred towards Swedes. ] 02:13, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

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Latest revision as of 00:16, 19 November 2024

Largest cities in Europe

Good Morning Jakkoo
after that consensus has finally been reached for this article some months ago, a user changed the article again in the sense opposite to consensus today: moreover, he introduced also factual errors which cannot be corrected since he keeps reverting to his version. Can you please have a look at it? Thanks, Alex2006 (talk) 12:33, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

The problem has been solved thanks to an good-will admin, thanks anyway! Alex2006 (talk) 14:15, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Hallo Jakkoo
, thanks for your intervention, but now we have the same problem (with the same user) at List of cities in Europe‎: it is like trying to empty the ocean with a spoon... :-( Alex2006 (talk) 06:28, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Faster on the draw

Funny we both went in the same direction. I put up a WP:3RR complaint just now; I hadn't seen yours. Thanks for being on it. It's funny, I think I have a 3RR suspension somewhere back in the mists of time. A mark of my ill-spent youth, perhaps. Gabrielthursday (talk) 11:50, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

EP Group

According your definition ((only) Right-wing populism) the Finns Party is on the same step like the The Austrian Freedom Part, UK Independence Party, Geert Wilders Party for Freedom. or the Lega Nord. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ragdy (talk • contribs) 20:29, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Well, the party was in the same EP Group (EFD) with UKIP and Lega Nord for five years. The party openly calls itself populist, so that part is not in question. The right-wing part can be debated. The party has some right-wing tendencies, but it also has left-wing tendencies. It's a complicated issue. I probably wouldn't have reverted if removing that category was the only thing you did. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 22:02, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

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