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|author=Weng Yu |title=Misplaced Pages says acupuncture is "pseudo-science" Chinese-American Chinese medicine practitioners protest |org=] |url=http://www.gqb.gov.cn/news/2017/0109/41568.shtml |date=2017-01-09
|author2=Feng Shuang |title2=Misplaced Pages called irresponsible on acupuncture |org2=] |url2=http://www.ecns.cn/m/2017/01-20/242545.shtml |date2=2017-01-20
|author3=John Bonazzo |title3=There’s a Major War Brewing Over the Acupuncture Misplaced Pages Page |org3=] |url3=http://observer.com/2017/02/wikipedia-acupuncture-pseudoscience-neutrality/|date3=2017-02-06
|author4=Mel Hopper Koppelman |title4=WikiTweaks: The Encyclopaedia that Anyone (Who is a Skeptic) Can Edit |org4=Journal of Chinese Medicine |url4=https://www.journalofchinesemedicine.com/wikitweaks-the-encyclopaedia-that-anyone-who-is-a-skeptic-can-edit.html |date4=February 2017
|author5=Harriet Hall|title5 = Acupuncturist Complains About Misplaced Pages |org5=Science-Based Medicine |url5=https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncturist-complains-about-wikipedia/|date5=May 16, 2017
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== Semi-protected edit request on 24 September 2024 ==
== Full protection ==

{{edit semi-protected|Acupuncture|answered=yes}}
I would like to make some suggestions to the acupuncture page. I do understand it is a contentious topic but believe some added edits and updated references would add better context as the WHO among others is expanding the use of traditonal medicine practices and has added a specific chapter in ICD11 for Traditional Medicine Acupuncture titled TM1
{{collapse top|collapse long requested changeset}}
'''Change X''' - the theories and practices of TCM are not based on scientific knowledge, and it has been characterized as quackery.]

'''to Y''' – .

There is a range of acupuncture technological variants that originated in different philosophies, and techniques vary depending on the country in which it is performed. However, it can be divided into two main foundational philosophical applications and approaches; the first being the modern standardized form called eight principles TCM and the second being an older system that is based on the ancient Daoist wuxing, better known as the five elements or phases in the West. Acupuncture is most often used to attempt pain relief, though acupuncturists say that it can also be used for a wide range of other conditions. Acupuncture is generally used only in combination with other forms of treatment.
The global acupuncture market was worth US$24.55 billion in 2017. The market was led by Europe with a 32.7% share, followed by Asia-Pacific with a 29.4% share and the Americas with a 25.3% share. It was estimated in 2021 that the industry would reach a market size of US$55 billion by 2023.

'''Change X''' – ]

'''to Y''' – . Acupuncture is generally safe when done by appropriately trained practitioners using clean needle technique and single-use needles. When properly delivered, it has a low rate of mostly minor adverse effects. When accidents and infections do occur, they are associated with neglect on the part of the practitioner, particularly in the application of sterile techniques. A review conducted in 2013 stated that reports of infection transmission increased significantly in the preceding decade. The most frequently reported adverse events were pneumothorax and infections. Since serious adverse events continue to be reported, it is recommended that acupuncturists be trained sufficiently to reduce the risk.

'''Change X''' – and many modern practitioners no longer support the existence of life force energy (qi) or meridians, which was a major part of early belief systems.]

'''to Y''' - However, modern research substantiates the effectiveness of Acupuncture. Studies using functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) have shown that acupuncture elicits changes in the brain that correlate with neurological effects. As confirmed by the world-renowned Cleveland Clinic, “Acupuncture affects the limbic and para-limbic networks in the brain and has a deep hemodynamic response, which is influenced by the psychophysical response. Acupuncture also stimulates the nervous system and improves conduction and communication between nerves. This improved functioning of the nervous system stimulates neurotransmitter actions and the release of the body’s natural endorphins and other opioids. For example, serotonin may be released following acupuncture, therefore helping patients feel more relaxed and sustain a sense of well-being that lasts for hours thereafter, if not longer. Research has also shown acupuncture’s ability in relieving myofascial pain by releasing muscular trigger points with ensuing concomitant anti-inflammatory effects.”
Acupuncture is believed to have originated around 100 BC in China, around the time The Inner Classic of Huang Di (Huangdi Neijing) was published, though some experts suggest it could have been practiced earlier. Over time, conflicting claims and belief systems emerged about the effect of lunar, celestial and earthly cycles, yin and yang energies, and a body's "rhythm" on the effectiveness of treatment. Acupuncture fluctuated in popularity in China due to changes in the country's political leadership and the preferential use of rationalism or scientific medicine. Acupuncture spread first to Korea in the 6th century AD, then to Japan through medical missionaries, and then to Europe, beginning with France. In the 20th century, as it spread to the United States and Western countries, spiritual elements of acupuncture that conflicted with scientific knowledge were sometimes abandoned in favor of simply tapping needles into acupuncture points.

'''Add Y''' – .

'''Add Y''' –

'''Change X:'''
[Clinical practice
Acupuncture is a form of alternative medicine. It is used most commonly for pain relief, though it is also used to treat a wide range of conditions. Acupuncture is generally only used in combination with other forms of treatment. For example, the American Society of Anesthesiologists states it may be considered in the treatment of nonspecific, noninflammatory low back pain only in conjunction with conventional therapy. ] to


'''to Y:'''
I have fully protected the article for two weeks to prevent any further problematic editing. This will allow discussion to take place without a background of edit-warring on the page itself. Any uncontroversial changes to the article (spelling, grammar etc.) may be requested here by using the template <nowiki>{{Edit fully-protected}}</nowiki>. ] 18:24, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
Clinical Practice
:Good call. The current protected version is the same as the last version before the edit war (21:42, 4 January 2019‎), so we even avoided ]... :)   --] (]) 17:08, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
Acupuncture is a form of alternative medicine. It is used most commonly for pain relief, though it is also used to treat a wide range of conditions. Acupuncture is generally only used in combination with other forms of treatment. For example, the American Society of Anesthesiologists states it may be considered in the treatment of nonspecific, noninflammatory low back pain only in conjunction with conventional therapy. Practitioners who practice Acupuncture are trained and take didactical coursework and clinical practice in their education; and, pass the National Certification Commission for Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine (NCCAOM) board exams, or a state-specific licensing exam in California. The Acupuncture training program includes techniques such as cupping, gua sha tui na, moxibustion, herbal medicine, lifestyle and nutrition based on Traditional Medicine principles.
::Yes, was an obviously untenable deviation from the emerging sci consensus on efficacy.<sup></sup> --] <small>(] • ] &#124; ] • ])</small> 04:03, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
There is current research supporting that acupuncture has efficacy with pain management being the most well-known application. Conceptually, it is believed to stimulate the body's meridians, or energy-carrying channels, in an attempt to correct imbalances and to restore health. These benefits are thought to be derived from the proximity of acupoints with nerves through intracellular calcium ions. This lesson outlines a brief history of acupuncture and how it may be used to treat various types of physical and emotional pain and specific conditions, including overactive bladder and psoriasis. Acupuncture has been demonstrated to enhance endogenous opiates, such as dynorphin, endorphin, encephalin, and release corticosteroids, relieving pain and enhancing the healing process. Of particular note is that Acupuncture is now incorporated by highly-acclaimed Western Medicine providers as part of a treatment plan for numerous conditions. The world-renowned Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center endorses the newly updated Society of Integrative Oncology’s recommendations for acupuncture for breast cancer patients with joint pain. . Medical institutions such as the Mayo Clinic, National Cancer Institute, City of Hope, and Cleveland Clinic also integrate Acupuncture into their patients care programs. ] (]) 19:39, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
::: The emerging scientific consensus is that acupuncture is bullshit, as you see by the ever lengthening list of conditions for which it is definitively established to be ineffective. Needless to say the cult responds with more pseudoscience. The experience of homeopathy indicates this will work for maybe a decade. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 11:44, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
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:::: (<span style="font-size:0.8em"> '''READ THE DIFF PLEASE !'''</span> <span style="font-size:0.9em"><== stage whisper </span>) Which is why I'm gobsmacked you'd support removal of a source saying exactly that. --] <small>(] • ] &#124; ] • ])</small> 20:26, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
:This is a hodgepodge of content ] verbatim from copyrighted sources. It can't be used. ] (]) 20:04, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
I see, though, that they have snuck one in there. The reason why acupuncture is a pseudoscience is NOT because its mechanics are unknown or achieved using an alternative model of the human body, but because it doesn't '''demonstrate efficacy'''. If there was an effect, we would still be able to use the scientific toolbox refining it even when the actual mechanic was absent. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 15:43, 17 January 2019 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Almost. Lack of demonstrated efficacy is also not enough. Demonstrated inefficacy is, and demonstrated conflict with accepted knowledge is an added bonus. --] (]) 08:01, 18 January 2019 (UTC) ::Also, {{tq|Historical records as old as 3,500 years demonstrate the effectiveness of Acupuncture}} is invalid reasoning - ] - not consistent with ], to give just one example. --] (]) 06:45, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
:: Determined promotion in the face of lack of proven efficacy is what defines quackery. Pseudoscience is when the True Believers then start trying to produce sciencey-looking evidence to support their pre-existing beliefs. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 09:03, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
:::<small>(partial cross-post to COIN ) </small> True Believers like the fringe, unreliable ], for example (summary<sup></sup>, discussion<sup></sup>). This qualified endorsement (which represents the US National Academies' position on pain management<sup></sup>) demolishes the idea that there's sci consensus that acu is bullshit, pseudoscience et cetera; it's obviously much more complicated than that. (], a statement by a sci academy of unsurpassed authority represents a sci consensus on the matter, or at least the majority view which should probably be stated in WP's voice, with wholesale dismissals of acu qualifying as a minority view.) --] <small>(] • ] &#124; ] • ])</small> 14:55, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
:::: Isn't it singular how when a practitioner of quackery promotes a source as "unsurpassed" it always, ''purely by coincidence'' happens to be an outlier in making confident statements in favour of their quackery, rather than the vastly less confident statements in the majority of sources. The National Academies have been assiduously lobbied by acupuncturists and other quacks looking to sell their bullshit into the VA, for decades. It is hardly surprising that this results in in-universe descriptions of quackery appearing in their publications. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 15:18, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
::::: ]: NAM isn't the kind of source that outlies; rather, it shifts the center of gravity. Except here it doesn't contradict anything, because it doesn't assert efficacy. It basically says no evidence for efficacy (i.e. real acu > sham acu) and then says acu is a "powerful tool" in pain treatment anyway. That stance is fully consistent with the extent of acu's adoption clinically, where the choice is "acu or not?", not "real acu or sham acu?". As for NAM being lobbied, let's see a source for that, and per <span style="font-size:0.9em">''']'''</span> it'll need to be strong. <span style="font-size:0.9em">Aside re "unsurpassed": On CAM article talk pages, I've used that term for three things: Ernst as a CAM expert, meta-analyses (as a genre) as MEDRS for efficacy, and the NAM for position statements on medicine. In each case one could make a decent argument that rather than "unsurpassed", the better term is "unequaled".</span> --] <small>(] • ] &#124; ] • ])</small> 17:01, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
:::: The information in the first part of the NAP source based on research this century seems to be mostly in line with what we have in the article now. Some studies show no benefit over placebo, some find a modest improvement over placebo, and others find the data insufficient to go either way. All of this is using qualifying language like "it has been shown", "studies suggest", "also has been suggested" to make clear that these are observations and not findings. The paper is interesting in this respect I guess but I am not sure what wording we could use. "The NAP notes that some studies sugest" to be honest I think we are fine use that in Wikipedias voice even without the NAP. I'll add my thoughts on the second part later.] (]) 19:04, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
:::: Actually I don't think it is a good use of time to analyze that source without knowing exactly what you want to use it for. You should start a new section with the wording you want to use if you are looking to build consensus for an edit. I don't agree with you though that the source is an endorsement matter of fact I think it is being very careful not to endorse it. Just look at the paragraph above to see the kind of wording you would expect in an endorsement.] (]) 23:53, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
::::: '']'': "to give one's approval to".
::::: NAM summary paragraph:<sup></sup> {{tq|Nonpharmacologic interventions for pain treatment, including acupuncture, physical therapy and exercise, cognitive-behavioral therapy, and mindfulness meditation, also are powerful tools in the management of chronic pain. Many are components of successful self-management. While further research is needed for some nonpharmacologic interventions to better understand their mechanism of action and optimal frequency and intensity, they may provide effective pain relief for many patients in place of or in combination with pharmacologic approaches.}}
::::: That is, as I stated, a qualified endorsement: the first sentence being the endorsement, the final being the qualification. --] <small>(] • ] &#124; ] • ])</small> 17:01, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
:::::: Actually I don't think it is a good use of time to analyze that source without knowing exactly what you want to use it for. You should start a new section with the wording you want to use if you are looking to build consensus for an edit. I don't agree with you though that the source is an endorsement matter of fact I think it is being very careful not to endorse it. Just look at the paragraph above to see the kind of wording you would expect in an endorsement.] (]) 03:18, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
== Nordic Countries ==
This content (including all five Nordic countries, though less so in Finland.) from the adoption section does not seem to follow from this source <ref>{{cite journal | vauthors = Skovgaard L, Nicolajsen PH, Pedersen E, Kant M, Fredrikson S, Verhoef M, Meyrowitsch DW | title = Use of Complementary and Alternative Medicine among People with Multiple Sclerosis in the Nordic Countries | journal = Autoimmune Diseases | volume = 2012 | pages = 841085 | year = 2012 | pmid = 23304461 | pmc = 3529905 | doi = 10.1155/2012/841085 }}</ref> and should probably be removed. The source discussing all types of CAM and only looked at patient with Multiple Sclerosis.
* I'd exclude this - the fact of being used for a thing where it does not work only adds confusion. And an internet survey is scarcely a robust mechanism. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 11:45, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
**By that logic we can't use a source about practically any condition. --] <small>(] • ] &#124; ] • ])</small> 12:58, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
::: Yes we can if it is a reality-based assessment of efficacy. Remember, we are talking here about something that has no plausible mechanism and which doesn't actually work for the cited condition (or indeed any other). <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 13:15, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
::::Not in the vast majority of CAM we can't. Yet adoption exists and must be studied according to some metric or other. ] <small>(] • ] &#124; ] • ])</small> 13:42, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
* As long as we specify it's just MS (and otherwise represent the source properly) I don't believe there's a problem. It's still relevant to CAM adoption even if we don't yet know the fuller picture, condition-wise. <span style="font-size:0.9em">(Also, controlling for condition treated can afford more rigorous comparisons across countries. Which is not our goal -- just saying it appears to be a solid piece of research.)</span>
:Discussing multiple CAM's is OK as long as the source breaks down each CAM specifically, as this source does (see e.g. the first sentence in the abstract, and Table 2). --] <small>(] • ] &#124; ] • ])</small> 12:58, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
:: Yes, it's a problem, because it's the '']''. The fact that people use SCAM doesn't make the SCAM legitimate, but is often interpreted as doing so by the lay public, with the eager prompting of SCAM vendors. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 13:14, 9 January 2019 (UTC) <small>more, 13:33, 9 January 2019 (UTC)</small>
:::The point here is adoption, not legitimacy. --] <small>(] • ] &#124; ] • ])</small> 13:33, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
:::: Yes, it has been adopted by quacks. We have no inkling that it would be legitimate. ] (]) 15:10, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
:::: The point is that quacks use the circular and fallacious argument that X is popular therefore X must work, therefore we should promote it so it remains popular, and we can continue to claim it works, even though there is no reason to suppose it should work, no plausible mechanism by which it should work, and no good evidence it does work. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 19:15, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
::::: Misplaced Pages isn't censored (i.e., just because somebody might or does misuse information, we don't exclude) --] <small>(] • ] &#124; ] • ])</small> 20:03, 9 January 2019 (UTC); <small>more 22:27, 9 January 2019 (UTC)</small>
::::::But we do exclude things if they are superfluous. If the article already says in so many words that acupuncture is used widely although it does not work, why mention that in country X, person Y uses it against Z against which it does not work? --] (]) 08:39, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
:::::::Again, adoption, not efficacy. There's plenty of bullshit people believe, but it's still encyclopedic if a lot of people believe it and sources say so. -] <small>(] • ] &#124; ] • ])</small> 08:44, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
:::::::: We include it by reference to independent commentary saying it's bullshit. This is not that. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 12:16, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
::::::::: By that argument we'd be omitting a lot of sources on sociology of religion (plenty awfulness there) just because they lack independent commentary saying it's bullshit. Scholars often refrain from such polemic -- what would be the point? --] <small>(] • ] &#124; ] • ])</small> 18:33, 11 January 2019 (UTC); <small>abridge 18:39, 11 January 2019 (UTC), ce 18:41, 11 January 2019 (UTC)</small>
::::::::::Plenty of sources make clear that religions deal in myths, there is no special reason to debunk "born of a virgin" in order to call it myth. "Virgin birth is a myth" is ]. ] (]) 19:05, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
::::::::::: If only there were such sources for CAM.<sup>sarcasm</sup> Really? Any source on adoption has to say "oh and it's BS", as if all our other critical sources aren't enough? (note, I agree there may be other issues w/ the source under discussion)--] <small>(] • ] &#124; ] • ])</small> 20:47, 11 January 2019 (UTC)


== This article is racist ==
::It is a primary source that not only speaks just about MS, but only contacted people in MS societal groups to take the survey. I don't think the entry "one study found some evidence that members of the MS society in Finland are less likely to use acupuncture than other Nordic countries" is a useful addition to this article.] (]) 22:51, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
:::<span style="font-size:0.9em">@ ]: FWIW, I'm OK with , but didn't agree to it in discussion above, so please use a different ES than "per consensus" in such a case. Thanks --] <small>(] • ] &#124; ] • ])</small> 08:55, 30 January 2019 (UTC)</span>
:::: Consensus does not mean unanimous consent, so no I will not use a different ES than per consensus in such a case. ] (]) 00:59, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
{{reflist talk}}


It must be changed. ] (]) 22:14, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
== Popularity in Europe ==
Saying, with a perfectly good RS, that acupuncture is a popular CAM in Europe is not '']''. Why? Because we're not also saying "therefore, X proposition (say, acu is awesome) is true". It's just a simple fact -- per source, acu is a popular CAM in Europe, full stop. Hence my disagreement with . --] <small>(] • ] &#124; ] • ])</small> 16:21, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
: Being true doesn't make it any less a fallacious appeal to popularity. Forty billion flies can't be wrong, and all that. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 16:36, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
:: Could somebody explain what "heavily practiced" means anyway? That the needles are forced in hard? ] (]) 16:38, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
:: That's the point Guy: there is no appeal to popularity in the source (or how it's cited); the report takes a dim view of unproven treatments. (edit: at least parts of it do.) Description ≠ prescription. --] <small>(] • ] &#124; ] • ]</small> 16:53, 29 January 2019 (UTC); <small>add "(edit:....)" qualification, 23:41, 29 January 2019 (UTC)</small>
::: Here's a great way to reduce the drama: suggest edits on Talk and let someone else review them and make them. That is how we handle conflicts of interest on Misplaced Pages. You have a vested interest in the content of this article, so make yourself look better by not editing it directly. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 18:46, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
::::I fully agree with "the other Guy" on this. Even if you ''can'' edit in the area where you have a COI (which is disputed) that doesn't mean that you ''should''. --<!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 19:14, 29 January 2019 (UTC)</small>
:::::Just in case anybody was wondering if I had any opinion on this issue; yes, I do. -] ] 21:04, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
:::::: <span style="font-size:0.9em">(Preceding three comments are frankly out of place; I've commented at my user talk ''']'''.)</span> The question is whether is a good edit. IOW, whether the statement " is one of the most common alternative medicine practices in Europe" can be properly sourced to , which says {{tq|"The three most commonly used alternative therapies in Europe as of 2007 were homeopathy, acupuncture/, and herbal medicine"}}. --] <small>(] • ] &#124; ] • ])</small> 21:34, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
:My removal had nothing to do with RS but was based on the content being undue. The source is about Canada and the content is about Europe. That is already a red flag that cherry picking is going on. Second European Acupuncture was part of a list an not even mentioned by itself. Lastly, the wording was almost a complete rehash of the source. If that is the best paraphrasing you can do then probably you are doing something wrong.] (]) 03:23, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
::OK, your concern isn't RS, it's NPOV, which ] is part of: specifically, representing all sig views on a topic. How does that bear here?
::1) Citing uncontroversial info, Ramsay compares Canada with Europe; how is the Europe info any less citeable than the Canada info?
::2) What's wrong with being part of a list in this context -- if a source says the top-selling singers in 2018 were A, B and C, is that inferior to an equally-good source presenting the same info as three separate sentences?
::3) And why does closeness of paraphrasing matter as long as it's accurate and not a copyvio?
::Thanks --] <small>(] • ] &#124; ] • ])</small> 08:48, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
:::I don't find your argument convincing for the reasons I have already stated, o I don't see any value in going back and forth with you. As it seems that Guy and Alex agree with me,and so far no one has agreed with you,consensus is to leave it out for the time being. You are certainly welcome to open an RFC or to wait on more input.] (]) 01:09, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
::::(Where did Alexbrn agree?) That's not how consensus works -- we're at least supposed to try and engage. I've posted at <span style="font-size:0.9em">''']'''</span>. --] <small>(] • ] &#124; ] • ])</small> 18:17, 8 February 2019 (UTC)


:Opposing ] such as ] and ] does not make me a racist. Why? {{talk quote| If an Indian, American, British, Nigerian or Brazilian scientist makes an empirical claim about the body, they're expected to prove it, and that proof must be replicable. Why should it be different for Chinese scientists?|WLU}} Quoted by ] (]) 22:16, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
== Neutrality ==


== Edit request on 3 December 2024 ==
I am concerned by the accent of the "pesudoscience" aspect weighed in the article. It is a well-known fact that a.p. is a form of alternative medicine but it seems like this article was written as an attempt to disprove it by skeptoscience, pointing out inconsistencies in studies instead of describing its methods and goals (and their means). Reading through the whole article, I barely resist the urge to change the title to "the pseudoscience of acupuncture". kuchesezik 21:56, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
{{cot|title=perennial complaints of 'bias' have been addressed countless times already}}
It is not “neutral” to immediately dismiss acupuncture as “pseudoscience in the first paragraph and subheading. That is an expression of opinion that fails to take into account years of scientific research on the topic accepted by the US NIH and other major health organizations. I recommend that the current “pseudoscience” sentence be supplanted by a sentence stating “The U.S. National Institutes of Health (NIH) states “there’s evidence that acupuncture may have effects on the nervous system, effects on other body tissues, and nonspecific (placebo) effects. (https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/acupuncture-effectiveness-and-safety) The current “psuedoscience” sentence can be attributed to critics of the field, e.g., “Critics have dismissed the scientific research on the effects of acupuncture and characterized it as psuedoscience” <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 18:16, 3 December 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


:Have a look at ], and note that essentially nothing published by the ] - a political department set up to boost alternative medicine, which is /not/ under the supervision of the NIH - is a reliable source. ] (]) 18:53, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
:It isn't skeptoscience. It's science. The science says that acupuncture works exactly as well as any other placebo, that the results are exactly the same no matter where you put the needles, and that the results are exactly the same whether you put the needles in or just pretend to. We aren't trying to disprove acupuncture. We are trying to write an article that accurately reflects what the ]-compliant sources say, which is that acupuncture doesn't work. --] (]) 22:23, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
::So cherry-picking articles that prove your point of view is a more objective approach than referring to the US NIH as a reliable source? It would be fair to say that critics of acupuncture ''view'' it as psuedoscience after noting that there is significant scientific research showing a range of benefits, accepted by NIH and the increasing number of insurance companies that provide acupuncture coverage for proven purposes, like pain relief.
: What The Other Guy&trade; said. We are not trying to disprove acupuncture. Science has done that pretty well, actually, and that is right and proper: the job of science is explicitly to try to disprove a hypothesis - what Huxley described as "The great tragedy of Science — the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact." That's why acupuncturists' studies which set out to prove it, are legitimately characterised as pseudoscience. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 23:34, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
::But it is highly biased to dismiss the entire field in the first sentences rather than providing a more appropriately balanced and nuanced perspective. I thought Misplaced Pages pages were supposed to be, not for people with axes to grind, but instead for the fair presentation of information for readers to make their own judgments. ] (]) 21:42, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
:: You "Guys" are saying that "science says" something that *some* scientific studies have concluded, but not all. It's pretty unscientific to say things like "science (as if it were an entity) has this very simple judgement about this pretty complicated topic". Its silly, and people that come to the article recognize that the tone of the article is cartoonish in its amplification of few voices (Ernst and Novella).] (]) 23:40, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
:::Again, what you just cited is not 'the US NIH', nor is Acupuncure 'accepted by NIH'. Also, if you're looking for balance, you should know that Misplaced Pages doesn't do that, see ]. ] (]) 22:02, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
::::NCCIH is literally on the NIH website, which is literally part of the HHS website. Not a shocker that the Misplaced Pages page on NCCIH shows the same consistent bias against all alternative medicine approaches demonstrated by this site, regardless of actual research or evidence. But I don’t see how you can deny the reality of a sub-organization being part of its parent organization.
::::It is not “false balance” to refer to actual health research that has been reviewed and validated by major research organizations like NIH, WHO and others. It is a matter of telling the story fairly and accurately.
::::And it’s odd that you all seem to believe that health insurance companies are stupid enough to be increasingly providing coverage for practices that you blithely equate with astrology or Tarot card reading without bothering to review the evidence or let others add it. Sad to see Misplaced Pages promoting biased entries and censorship in this manner. ] (]) 02:36, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::The NCCIH is 'literally' a separate institute which does not answer to the NIH director. That's because it was set up as a personal project by a US Senator who wanted an outfit that would validate the scientifically invalid bee pollen treatments he believed in. You are getting basic facts incorrect here, which is not going to be a basis for changes to this article. Some health insurance companies will cover ], too. That does not mean that homeopathy isn't nonsense. ] (]) 02:39, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Please specify which facts I got wrong. NCCIH is indisputably one of the over two dozen centers and institutes of NIH. (https://www.nih.gov/institutes-nih/list-institutes-centers). Are you saying that the National Cancer Institute or National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases are not part of NIH either and therefore have no validity as sources of information?
::::::Also, to say that NCCIH is illegitimate because Sen. Tom Harkin was its original champion does not make any sense. All agencies of the U.S. Government ultimately derive from Congressional legislation and many are the result of particular politicians championing them. The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, for example, was Sen. Elizabeth Warren’s pet project. Does that make it somehow “political” and therefore illegitimate? ] (]) 02:55, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::I've already explained what you're getting wrong, but here it is one more time: The NCCIH is illegitimate because they publish nonsense. What they accept is not 'accepted by NIH' because the rest of the NIH (especially the NIH director) gets no say in the nonsense they publish. By conflating a fringe body with mainstream medical bodies, you are undermining your argument. If you have to cite the NCCIH for legitimacy, that is a sign to everyone else that what you're doing is promoting pseudoscience. We're now just repeating ourselves, so I imagine I will not comment again unless someone new comes up. Do not interpret my silence as agreement. ] (]) 03:05, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::Yeah, you refused to respond to any of my specific questions or points, so I guess we’re done. Interesting, though, to learn that the National Cancer Institute and all of NIH’s other Centers and Institutes aren’t part of NIH and therefore their work can and should be ignored by Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 03:17, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::You don't get it. NCCIH is not unreliable because NIH has no power over it. It is unreliable for other reasons, and it '''does not get to suck reputation from the NIH because NIH has no power over it'''. You tried to copy-and-paste the reliability from NIH to NCCIH, and that was refuted. Other centers and institutes are reliable or unreliable for their own reasons.
:::::::::Possibly, the NIH itself will lose reliability from 2025 on because it will be ruled by a quackery proponent who forces it to publish dangerous nonsense. --] (]) 08:15, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
:I agree. Claiming acupuncture is pseudoscience is a bold non-neutral statement. Misplaced Pages is too biased in this regard and I won't donate a cent to them until they fix this. ] (]) 15:58, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
::]. It's precisely ''for'' reasons of neutrality that Misplaced Pages is obliged to observe that acupuncture is a pseudoscience. ] (]) 16:13, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
:To present that some say it's 'pseudoscience' or 'quackery' without presenting that there are multiple meta-anaylsis studies showing its efficacy is deeply misleading. It fails to show the scientific backing that acupuncture has. A meta-analysis study does not just look at one randomized study or one case report. It is an in depth look at multiple scientific studies. Multiplele meta-analysis studies confirm the benefit of acupuncture.
:For example note the study "Acupuncture for chronic pain: update of an individual patient data meta-analysis" Authors: Vickers, A. J., et al. (2018)Published In: The Journal of Pain, 2018. This study clearly demonstrated the efficacy of acupuncture in multiple studies for muscloskeletal, headache and osteoarthritis pain. Full text is available here https://www.jpain.org/article/S1526-5900(17)30780-0/fulltext
:To have an accurate article on this subject without giving a profession that medical professionals spend years in education and which multiple scientific studies back these types of articles need to be addressed.
:Dismissing such a long-standing practice as quackery is simply not showing the full picture and incredible benefit this medical profession offers the public. ] (]) 16:23, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
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Semi-protected edit request on 24 September 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

I would like to make some suggestions to the acupuncture page. I do understand it is a contentious topic but believe some added edits and updated references would add better context as the WHO among others is expanding the use of traditonal medicine practices and has added a specific chapter in ICD11 for Traditional Medicine Acupuncture titled TM1

collapse long requested changeset

Change X - the theories and practices of TCM are not based on scientific knowledge, and it has been characterized as quackery.]

to Y – .

There is a range of acupuncture technological variants that originated in different philosophies, and techniques vary depending on the country in which it is performed. However, it can be divided into two main foundational philosophical applications and approaches; the first being the modern standardized form called eight principles TCM and the second being an older system that is based on the ancient Daoist wuxing, better known as the five elements or phases in the West. Acupuncture is most often used to attempt pain relief, though acupuncturists say that it can also be used for a wide range of other conditions. Acupuncture is generally used only in combination with other forms of treatment. The global acupuncture market was worth US$24.55 billion in 2017. The market was led by Europe with a 32.7% share, followed by Asia-Pacific with a 29.4% share and the Americas with a 25.3% share. It was estimated in 2021 that the industry would reach a market size of US$55 billion by 2023.

Change X – ]

to Y – . Acupuncture is generally safe when done by appropriately trained practitioners using clean needle technique and single-use needles. When properly delivered, it has a low rate of mostly minor adverse effects. When accidents and infections do occur, they are associated with neglect on the part of the practitioner, particularly in the application of sterile techniques. A review conducted in 2013 stated that reports of infection transmission increased significantly in the preceding decade. The most frequently reported adverse events were pneumothorax and infections. Since serious adverse events continue to be reported, it is recommended that acupuncturists be trained sufficiently to reduce the risk.

Change X – and many modern practitioners no longer support the existence of life force energy (qi) or meridians, which was a major part of early belief systems.]

to Y - However, modern research substantiates the effectiveness of Acupuncture. Studies using functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) have shown that acupuncture elicits changes in the brain that correlate with neurological effects. As confirmed by the world-renowned Cleveland Clinic, “Acupuncture affects the limbic and para-limbic networks in the brain and has a deep hemodynamic response, which is influenced by the psychophysical response. Acupuncture also stimulates the nervous system and improves conduction and communication between nerves. This improved functioning of the nervous system stimulates neurotransmitter actions and the release of the body’s natural endorphins and other opioids. For example, serotonin may be released following acupuncture, therefore helping patients feel more relaxed and sustain a sense of well-being that lasts for hours thereafter, if not longer. Research has also shown acupuncture’s ability in relieving myofascial pain by releasing muscular trigger points with ensuing concomitant anti-inflammatory effects.” Acupuncture is believed to have originated around 100 BC in China, around the time The Inner Classic of Huang Di (Huangdi Neijing) was published, though some experts suggest it could have been practiced earlier. Over time, conflicting claims and belief systems emerged about the effect of lunar, celestial and earthly cycles, yin and yang energies, and a body's "rhythm" on the effectiveness of treatment. Acupuncture fluctuated in popularity in China due to changes in the country's political leadership and the preferential use of rationalism or scientific medicine. Acupuncture spread first to Korea in the 6th century AD, then to Japan through medical missionaries, and then to Europe, beginning with France. In the 20th century, as it spread to the United States and Western countries, spiritual elements of acupuncture that conflicted with scientific knowledge were sometimes abandoned in favor of simply tapping needles into acupuncture points.

Add Y – .

Add Y

Change X: [Clinical practice Acupuncture is a form of alternative medicine. It is used most commonly for pain relief, though it is also used to treat a wide range of conditions. Acupuncture is generally only used in combination with other forms of treatment. For example, the American Society of Anesthesiologists states it may be considered in the treatment of nonspecific, noninflammatory low back pain only in conjunction with conventional therapy. ] to

to Y: Clinical Practice Acupuncture is a form of alternative medicine. It is used most commonly for pain relief, though it is also used to treat a wide range of conditions. Acupuncture is generally only used in combination with other forms of treatment. For example, the American Society of Anesthesiologists states it may be considered in the treatment of nonspecific, noninflammatory low back pain only in conjunction with conventional therapy. Practitioners who practice Acupuncture are trained and take didactical coursework and clinical practice in their education; and, pass the National Certification Commission for Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine (NCCAOM) board exams, or a state-specific licensing exam in California. The Acupuncture training program includes techniques such as cupping, gua sha tui na, moxibustion, herbal medicine, lifestyle and nutrition based on Traditional Medicine principles. There is current research supporting that acupuncture has efficacy with pain management being the most well-known application. Conceptually, it is believed to stimulate the body's meridians, or energy-carrying channels, in an attempt to correct imbalances and to restore health. These benefits are thought to be derived from the proximity of acupoints with nerves through intracellular calcium ions. This lesson outlines a brief history of acupuncture and how it may be used to treat various types of physical and emotional pain and specific conditions, including overactive bladder and psoriasis. Acupuncture has been demonstrated to enhance endogenous opiates, such as dynorphin, endorphin, encephalin, and release corticosteroids, relieving pain and enhancing the healing process. Of particular note is that Acupuncture is now incorporated by highly-acclaimed Western Medicine providers as part of a treatment plan for numerous conditions. The world-renowned Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center endorses the newly updated Society of Integrative Oncology’s recommendations for acupuncture for breast cancer patients with joint pain. . Medical institutions such as the Mayo Clinic, National Cancer Institute, City of Hope, and Cleveland Clinic also integrate Acupuncture into their patients care programs. Sam Collins 33 (talk) 19:39, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

This is a hodgepodge of content copied verbatim from copyrighted sources. It can't be used. ScienceFlyer (talk) 20:04, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
Also, Historical records as old as 3,500 years demonstrate the effectiveness of Acupuncture is invalid reasoning - argumentum ad antiquitatem - not consistent with WP:MEDRS, to give just one example. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:45, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

This article is racist

It must be changed. 2600:100F:A110:4802:ED55:9578:694F:5135 (talk) 22:14, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Opposing quackery such as acupuncture and Traditional Chinese Medicine does not make me a racist. Why?

If an Indian, American, British, Nigerian or Brazilian scientist makes an empirical claim about the body, they're expected to prove it, and that proof must be replicable. Why should it be different for Chinese scientists?
— User:WLU

Quoted by tgeorgescu (talk) 22:16, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Edit request on 3 December 2024

perennial complaints of 'bias' have been addressed countless times already

It is not “neutral” to immediately dismiss acupuncture as “pseudoscience in the first paragraph and subheading. That is an expression of opinion that fails to take into account years of scientific research on the topic accepted by the US NIH and other major health organizations. I recommend that the current “pseudoscience” sentence be supplanted by a sentence stating “The U.S. National Institutes of Health (NIH) states “there’s evidence that acupuncture may have effects on the nervous system, effects on other body tissues, and nonspecific (placebo) effects. (https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/acupuncture-effectiveness-and-safety) The current “psuedoscience” sentence can be attributed to critics of the field, e.g., “Critics have dismissed the scientific research on the effects of acupuncture and characterized it as psuedoscience” — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kindlerva (talkcontribs) 18:16, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Have a look at WP:MEDRS, and note that essentially nothing published by the NCCIH - a political department set up to boost alternative medicine, which is /not/ under the supervision of the NIH - is a reliable source. MrOllie (talk) 18:53, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
So cherry-picking articles that prove your point of view is a more objective approach than referring to the US NIH as a reliable source? It would be fair to say that critics of acupuncture view it as psuedoscience after noting that there is significant scientific research showing a range of benefits, accepted by NIH and the increasing number of insurance companies that provide acupuncture coverage for proven purposes, like pain relief.
But it is highly biased to dismiss the entire field in the first sentences rather than providing a more appropriately balanced and nuanced perspective. I thought Misplaced Pages pages were supposed to be, not for people with axes to grind, but instead for the fair presentation of information for readers to make their own judgments. Kindlerva (talk) 21:42, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
Again, what you just cited is not 'the US NIH', nor is Acupuncure 'accepted by NIH'. Also, if you're looking for balance, you should know that Misplaced Pages doesn't do that, see WP:FALSEBALANCE. MrOllie (talk) 22:02, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
NCCIH is literally on the NIH website, which is literally part of the HHS website. Not a shocker that the Misplaced Pages page on NCCIH shows the same consistent bias against all alternative medicine approaches demonstrated by this site, regardless of actual research or evidence. But I don’t see how you can deny the reality of a sub-organization being part of its parent organization.
It is not “false balance” to refer to actual health research that has been reviewed and validated by major research organizations like NIH, WHO and others. It is a matter of telling the story fairly and accurately.
And it’s odd that you all seem to believe that health insurance companies are stupid enough to be increasingly providing coverage for practices that you blithely equate with astrology or Tarot card reading without bothering to review the evidence or let others add it. Sad to see Misplaced Pages promoting biased entries and censorship in this manner. Kindlerva (talk) 02:36, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
The NCCIH is 'literally' a separate institute which does not answer to the NIH director. That's because it was set up as a personal project by a US Senator who wanted an outfit that would validate the scientifically invalid bee pollen treatments he believed in. You are getting basic facts incorrect here, which is not going to be a basis for changes to this article. Some health insurance companies will cover homeopathy, too. That does not mean that homeopathy isn't nonsense. MrOllie (talk) 02:39, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
Please specify which facts I got wrong. NCCIH is indisputably one of the over two dozen centers and institutes of NIH. (https://www.nih.gov/institutes-nih/list-institutes-centers). Are you saying that the National Cancer Institute or National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases are not part of NIH either and therefore have no validity as sources of information?
Also, to say that NCCIH is illegitimate because Sen. Tom Harkin was its original champion does not make any sense. All agencies of the U.S. Government ultimately derive from Congressional legislation and many are the result of particular politicians championing them. The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, for example, was Sen. Elizabeth Warren’s pet project. Does that make it somehow “political” and therefore illegitimate? Kindlerva (talk) 02:55, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
I've already explained what you're getting wrong, but here it is one more time: The NCCIH is illegitimate because they publish nonsense. What they accept is not 'accepted by NIH' because the rest of the NIH (especially the NIH director) gets no say in the nonsense they publish. By conflating a fringe body with mainstream medical bodies, you are undermining your argument. If you have to cite the NCCIH for legitimacy, that is a sign to everyone else that what you're doing is promoting pseudoscience. We're now just repeating ourselves, so I imagine I will not comment again unless someone new comes up. Do not interpret my silence as agreement. MrOllie (talk) 03:05, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
Yeah, you refused to respond to any of my specific questions or points, so I guess we’re done. Interesting, though, to learn that the National Cancer Institute and all of NIH’s other Centers and Institutes aren’t part of NIH and therefore their work can and should be ignored by Misplaced Pages. Kindlerva (talk) 03:17, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
You don't get it. NCCIH is not unreliable because NIH has no power over it. It is unreliable for other reasons, and it does not get to suck reputation from the NIH because NIH has no power over it. You tried to copy-and-paste the reliability from NIH to NCCIH, and that was refuted. Other centers and institutes are reliable or unreliable for their own reasons.
Possibly, the NIH itself will lose reliability from 2025 on because it will be ruled by a quackery proponent who forces it to publish dangerous nonsense. --Hob Gadling (talk) 08:15, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
I agree. Claiming acupuncture is pseudoscience is a bold non-neutral statement. Misplaced Pages is too biased in this regard and I won't donate a cent to them until they fix this. WordsAreNotViolence (talk) 15:58, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
WP:KEEPYOURMONEY. It's precisely for reasons of neutrality that Misplaced Pages is obliged to observe that acupuncture is a pseudoscience. Bon courage (talk) 16:13, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
To present that some say it's 'pseudoscience' or 'quackery' without presenting that there are multiple meta-anaylsis studies showing its efficacy is deeply misleading. It fails to show the scientific backing that acupuncture has. A meta-analysis study does not just look at one randomized study or one case report. It is an in depth look at multiple scientific studies. Multiplele meta-analysis studies confirm the benefit of acupuncture.
For example note the study "Acupuncture for chronic pain: update of an individual patient data meta-analysis" Authors: Vickers, A. J., et al. (2018)Published In: The Journal of Pain, 2018. This study clearly demonstrated the efficacy of acupuncture in multiple studies for muscloskeletal, headache and osteoarthritis pain. Full text is available here https://www.jpain.org/article/S1526-5900(17)30780-0/fulltext
To have an accurate article on this subject without giving a profession that medical professionals spend years in education and which multiple scientific studies back these types of articles need to be addressed.
Dismissing such a long-standing practice as quackery is simply not showing the full picture and incredible benefit this medical profession offers the public. Rochester1980 (talk) 16:23, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
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