| Revision as of 14:25, 7 April 2019 editCubaHavana2018 (talk | contribs)128 edits →Is UNWatch a reliable source?← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 01:40, 5 December 2024 edit undoJonesey95 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, Mass message senders, Template editors376,608 edits Fix Linter errors. |
| (93 intermediate revisions by 26 users not shown) |
| Line 1: |
Line 1: |
|
{{Talk header|search=yes}} |
|
{{Talk header|search=yes}} |
|
{{WikiProject banner shell|1= |
|
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=Start|listas=Zayas, Alfred-Maurice de|1= |
|
{{WikiProject Biography|living=yes|class=Start|listas=Zayas, Alfred-Maurice de}} |
|
{{WikiProject Biography}} |
|
{{WikiProject Chicago|class=start|importance=Low|auto=Hazard-Bot}} |
|
{{WikiProject Chicago|importance=Low|auto=Hazard-Bot}} |
|
{{WikiProject Law|class=Start|importance=Low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Law|importance=Low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Human rights}} |
|
{{WikiProject Human rights}} |
|
{{WikiProject International relations|UN=yes}} |
|
{{WikiProject International relations|importance=low|UN=yes}} |
|
| blp=yes |
|
| blp=yes |
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
{{Auto archiving notice|bot=Lowercase sigmabot III|age=365|dounreplied=yes}} |
|
|
{{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn |
|
{{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn |
|
|target=Talk:Alfred-Maurice de Zayas/Archive index |
|
|target=Talk:Alfred-Maurice de Zayas/Archive index |
| Line 17: |
Line 16: |
|
|archiveheader = {{aan}} |
|
|archiveheader = {{aan}} |
|
|maxarchivesize = 125K |
|
|maxarchivesize = 125K |
|
|counter = 4 |
|
|counter = 5 |
|
|minthreadsleft = 4 |
|
|minthreadsleft = 4 |
|
|algo = old(365d) |
|
|algo = old(365d) |
|
|archive = Talk:Alfred-Maurice de Zayas/Archive %(counter)d |
|
|archive = Talk:Alfred-Maurice de Zayas/Archive %(counter)d |
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
|
{{COI editnotice}} |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 June 2021 == |
|
== A new article about de Zayas == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
{{edit extended-protected|Alfred-Maurice de Zayas|answered=yes}} |
|
] ] 03:41, 28 January 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
|
change the missing isbn at The United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights" in Helmut Volger (ed.) Concise Encyclopaedia of the United Nations, The Hague: Kluwer, 2002 (2nd revised edition 2009) |
|
:Given the almost total absence of secondary sources in our current article, this looks like something we should use. Is it considered RS? ] (]) 16:22, 29 January 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
|
to 9789047444541 ] (]) 23:06, 10 June 2021 (UTC) |
|
|
:] '''Done'''<!-- Template:EEp --> – ] (]) 00:06, 11 June 2021 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Why is this article locked? == |
|
== Alfred de Zayas memorandum regarding the Hawaiian Islands == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Why is this article locked? It's in a horrible state as it is, badly needs updating, and even an editor like myself (registered almost 6 years ago, a couple of new articles, ~300 edits) cannot participate. I don't think this is a wise administratorial practise. I understand the underlying concern is that pro-de Zayas single purpose accounts as well as his equally clueless opponents may have been pestering this article, but still, in that case these particular accounts should be either banned from the article or from Misplaced Pages but normal development of an article by regulars should not be disabled like that.] (]) 13:17, 22 October 2021 (UTC) |
|
I have attempted to include the following de Zayas excerpt from his memorandum found at https://hawaiiankingdom.org/pdf/Dr_deZayas_Memo_2_25_2018.pdf and quoted in the Guardian at https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/29/hawaii-politician-jennifer-ruggles-sovereign-country: |
|
|
|
:{{ping|Polska jest Najważniejsza}} Hi. The article was also protected due to extended sockpuppetry. The protection is due to last until a couple of months, but if you reach 500 edits you should be able to edit normally. Best wishes. --] (]) 20:34, 22 October 2021 (UTC) |
|
|
::OK, thanks. Perhaps we will meet here again then. In 3 month's or perchance 3 year's time.] (]) 22:06, 22 October 2021 (UTC) |
|
|
::The problem with locking this article is roughly (a) it preserves the sockpuppetry; (b) the article itself is mostly self-promotion / legitimization of an anti-US, pro-Russian propagandist. FWIW. ] (]) 19:20, 26 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Request new material be added == |
|
The UN Independent Expert advocated for legal compliance within the territory of the Hawaiian Islands, publishing a legal memorandum that states: |
|
|
"I have come to understand that the lawful political status of the Hawaiian Islands is that of a sovereign nation-state in continuity; but a nation state that is under a strange form of occupation by the United States resulting from an illegal military occupation and fraudulent annexation. As such, international laws (The Hague and Geneva Conventions) require that governance and legal matters within the occupied territory of the Hawaiian Islands must be administered by the application of laws by the occupied state (in this case, the Hawaiian Kingdom) not the domestic laws of the occupier (the United States)." |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
De Zelayas has made comments on the 2022 Russia Ukraine crisis. This and other recent activities of his should be covered in the article. I wrote the following material, intending to put it in the article; unfortunately then discovered the article is locked. Could someone with the necessary authority put this in?: |
|
However, this excerpt has been repeatedly removed from his wikipedia page. I cleaned up my introduction and summary leading into his excerpt- however my edit was still removed. I am simply quoting his work- this is not my personal opinion. Please advise. (] (]) 04:30, 28 January 2019 (UTC)) |
|
|
|
<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext"> |
|
:This content does not belong in the lead section of the article, because the purpose of that section is to summarize the body of the article. "Advocacy" is a better section. The quote is excessively long in the context of this biography, since this person is involved with many, many issues other than Hawai'i and we don't have lengthy quotes from him on those other issues. Hawaiiankingdom.org is not a reliable source for general use on Misplaced Pages because it is an advocacy website. Also, de Zayas is no longer the UN independent expert. ] ] 04:41, 28 January 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
|
<br /> |
|
:{{ping|SpeakingTruthToPower4Freedom}} It's OK to be ] and try to improve articles; however, if you're "improvement" is ] by another editor who leaves an ] indicating something other than being ], then you are obligated to follow ] and engage in discussion on the article's talk page to try and establish a ] for inclusion. You shouldn't simply keep trying to add the content over and over again because this is likely going to be seen a edit warring. Now, regarding this particular quote, I tend to agree with Cullen328 in that it might be possible to mention something about this in a neutrally worded sentence about Hawaii, but the long quote seems a bit ]. Misplaced Pages articles are not really the place to ] and ]. So, maybe a shortened version of what the ''Guardian'' wrote would be better suited for this article or even better perhaps in ]. Finally, I also agree that {{url|hawaiiankingdom.org}} is not a ] for Misplaced Pages pruposes. Anyway, I've ] the content for the time being until a consensus can be established for its inclusion. I've also posted a {{tl|Please see}} at ] to let that WikiProject know about the discussion. -- ] (]) 05:40, 28 January 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
|
== NATO and Ukraine == |
|
|
. |
|
|
In a 26 February 2022 interview with Sputnik News, DeZayas criticised the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO) for its role in the Russia-Ukraine crisis. He said that:<ref>Ekaterina Blinova, ''Sputnik News,'' Feb. 26, 2022, "Ukraine: NNATO Bloc Has Neither Moral Authority Nor Credibility to Judge Russia, Ex-UN Expert Says" [https://sputniknews.com/20220226/ukraine-nato-bloc-has-neither-moral-authority-nor-credibility-to-judge-russia-ex-un-expert-says-1093391442.html |
|
|
sputniknews.com] </ref> |
|
|
. |
|
|
<blockquote> |
|
|
. |
|
|
NATO is not a “defensive” organisation but on the contrary, an organisation for offensive actions. NATO countries have committed the crime of aggression, war crimes and crimes against humanity in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, and Syria. |
|
|
. |
|
|
</blockquote> |
|
|
. |
|
|
and: |
|
|
. |
|
|
<blockquote> |
|
|
. |
|
|
It is a disgrace that the Ukrainians have been abused and misused by NATO, sacrificed on the altar of imperial geopolitics. |
|
|
. |
|
|
</blockqoute> |
|
|
</syntaxhighlight> |
|
|
|
|
|
|
I think that between sections 4 and 5 would be the right place. -- ] (]) 22:21, 26 February 2022 (UTC) |
|
::Sure, I am happy to continue the discussion to reach a consensus. However, I have some disagreement with the points you and Cullen make about my sourcing/citing. The hawaiiankingdom.org website provides the PDF of the de Zayas memorandum. Its an official document written by de Zayas and therefore I see no relevance in discussing the websites legitimacy, because they are simply providing the original source document. Also, I cited the guardian article as well, however it is unclear to me why the guardian is a legitimate source of information while hawaiiankingdom.org is not. All media representations are partial, partisan and problematic, how do you deal with inherent human bias? Meanwhile I cited the original source document of the de Zayas excerpt I provided. The de Zayas Misplaced Pages page is about him, and therefore sharing excerpts of his writing to describe a significant conversation that he has contributed much to, seems quite relevant and unbiased in the sense of reporting on it. Especially when the reporting content is mostly just his excerpt being posted to his page, again about a significant event that he has deeply impacted. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
: A reminder for any user, please see ]. The website cited is not a ] on Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 07:16, 15 July 2022 (UTC) |
|
::In addition, there is inconsistency when we look at what is allowed on the Hawaiian sovereignty movement page contrasting my edit on the Alfred de Zayas page. For example, there is no citation at the end of this paragraph, and the statement is important, because it is a falsification of Hawaiian history as I know from historian Ron Williams, PHD, who works at the Hawaii State Archives, and specializes in the history of the Home Rule Party. He tells us that the political party known as the Home Rule Party supported and successfully passed a great deal of legislation, all of which was vetoed by the American installed territory governor. In addition describing the party as radical compared to the Democratic Party of Hawaii is also exaggerative opinionated writing. Regardless this biased version of history also has no citation: |
|
|
|
:The above propagandistic material (and indeed, much of the existing bio) does not below on WikiPedia; WikiPedia should not be a forum for spreading disinformation and propaganda. ] (]) 19:21, 26 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== The Human Rights Industry - book of Alfred de Zayas == |
|
::Home Rule Party of Hawaii |
|
|
::Main article: Home Rule Party of Hawaii |
|
|
::Following the annexation of Hawaii, Wilcox formed the Home Rule Party of Hawaii on June 6, 1900. The Party was generally more radical than the Democratic Party of Hawaii. They were able to dominate the Territorial Legislature between 1900 and 1902. But due to their radical and extreme philosophy of Hawaiian nationalism, infighting was prominent. This, in addition to their refusal to work with other parties, meant that they were unable to pass any legislation. Following the election of 1902 they steadily declined until they disbanded in 1912. ] (]) 07:00, 28 January 2019 (UTC) <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 06:57, 28 January 2019 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|
|
:::In my opinion, the document should be treated as a ] which means that it needs to be used carefully, and any interpretation of the document is going to need to come from reliable ], which I don't think hawaiiankingdom.com qualifies as and is what I meant by it being non-reliable. I apologize if I wasn't clear about that. All sources are biased to some degree as explained in ], but Misplaced Pages limits us to using only those which are condsidered to be reliable. Personally, I'm not exactly sure the ''Guardian'' would be a reliable source in this particular context for anything but the quote itself, but major newspapers are generally considered have in place fairly strong editorial controls and do fact checking of what they publish, and it seems unlikely that as a major newpspaper would knowingly misquote something or link to a doctored or otherwise altered pdf file. So, it would be better to find an official UN source for the document than a ] if you want to cite it and then a reliable secondary source for any interpretation of it. Then, there would still be the question of whether adding all the content you're proposing would be ] in comparison to the other content in that particular section.{{pb}}As for the other articles you mentioned, those articles may indeed have problems and those should be addressed on their article talk pages; that, however, ]. Perhaps some members from ] will be more familiar with the subject matter and be able to provide more specific feedback. -- ] (]) 08:13, 28 January 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
9781949762525 is the ISBN and it has a May first 2022 publication date however does not appear in any member libraries in Worldcat.org and is "back-ordered" in all the book stores one here checked. Does anyone know if this book and if so when to press, missed it publication date or something else? The publishers website just shows an upcoming book with the book idea maybe forming around 2017 with the publisher being Clarity Press. ] (]) 18:26, 28 August 2022 (UTC) |
|
== Is UNWatch a reliable source? == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
I presume not, but lots of info here: https://www.unwatch.org/u-n-to-endorse-hero-of-holocaust-deniers-alfred-de-zayas/ ] (]) 17:03, 26 March 2019 (UTC) |
|
:Clarity Press deserves inclusion in ]; it is not a reliable publisher. ] (]) 19:24, 26 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
:I understand it may be biased, but I'm not sure if it is unreliable. A discussion in the reliable sources noticeboard may have been opened before. --] (]) 18:18, 26 March 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
::It was raised in 2009, a bit inconclusively: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_48#UN_Watch I might look at it carefully and check its own sources for inclusion. ] (]) 15:10, 28 March 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
::Here's another probably non-reliable source, ], possibly worth looking at for its sources: https://www.inquisitr.com/448974/un-general-assembly-to-appoint-hero-of-holocaust-deniers-alfred-de-zayas-to-human-rights-commission/ ] (]) 10:39, 29 March 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
::And another from ]: https://www.libertaddigital.com/internacional/estados-unidos/2017-09-29/el-experto-de-la-onu-que-apoya-el-golpismo-catalan-es-pronazi-y-procastrista-1276606710/ ] (]) 16:27, 29 March 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
UN Watch is not a credible source but a political lobby that has already defamed many respectable people |
|
|
including High Commissioners Mary Robinson, Navi Pillay and rapporteurs Jean Ziegler, Olivier de Schutter, John Dugard etc. |
|
|
|
|
|
==Non-noteworthy material== |
|
|
I've been trying to make this article somewhat more encyclopedic, as it has been tagged for a while with multiple issues. So far, I don't think I've done anything overly bold, but , in which I removed material (citing primary sources) mentioning various side panels and minor writing that he's done, might be worth others' checking in case I'm going too far. ] (]) 17:44, 28 March 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
I'm also not sure if encyclopedia entries and the like are noteworthy enough to include in a bibliography, so if anyone could look at this section with an eye to de-cluttering that would be good: https://en.wikipedia.org/Alfred-Maurice_de_Zayas#Articles_and_chapters ] (]) 17:09, 29 March 2019 (UTC) |
|
change the missing isbn at The United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights" in Helmut Volger (ed.) Concise Encyclopaedia of the United Nations, The Hague: Kluwer, 2002 (2nd revised edition 2009)
to 9789047444541 Asdvfasdfvwerbtewrbtewrbter (talk) 23:06, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
Why is this article locked? It's in a horrible state as it is, badly needs updating, and even an editor like myself (registered almost 6 years ago, a couple of new articles, ~300 edits) cannot participate. I don't think this is a wise administratorial practise. I understand the underlying concern is that pro-de Zayas single purpose accounts as well as his equally clueless opponents may have been pestering this article, but still, in that case these particular accounts should be either banned from the article or from Misplaced Pages but normal development of an article by regulars should not be disabled like that.Polska jest Najważniejsza (talk) 13:17, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
De Zelayas has made comments on the 2022 Russia Ukraine crisis. This and other recent activities of his should be covered in the article. I wrote the following material, intending to put it in the article; unfortunately then discovered the article is locked. Could someone with the necessary authority put this in?:
9781949762525 is the ISBN and it has a May first 2022 publication date however does not appear in any member libraries in Worldcat.org and is "back-ordered" in all the book stores one here checked. Does anyone know if this book and if so when to press, missed it publication date or something else? The publishers website just shows an upcoming book with the book idea maybe forming around 2017 with the publisher being Clarity Press. 68.48.113.58 (talk) 18:26, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
.svg)
Done – Jonesey95 (talk) 00:06, 11 June 2021 (UTC)