| Revision as of 23:16, 30 August 2019 editMJL (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Page movers, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers, Template editors42,356 edits →Discussion: proposal← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 10:45, 11 November 2024 edit undoTom.Reding (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, Template editors3,879,345 editsm →top: blpo=yes + blp=no/null → blp=other; cleanupTag: AWB |
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{{ITN talk|23 August|2019|oldid=912204335}} |
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{{ITN talk|23 August|2019|oldid=912204335}} |
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{{WikiProject Biography |living=no |class=C |listas=Koch, David}} |
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{{linkrot}}<br />Add this tag. |
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{{linkrot}}<br />Add this tag. |
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== health == |
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the article states: |
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"In 1992, Koch was diagnosed with prostate cancer. He underwent radiation, surgery, and hormone therapy, but the cancer has returned every time." |
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you may want to check/change this around -> the course of treatment is usually: 1. surgery, 2. radiation, 3. hormone therapy. |
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] (]) 13:09, 23 August 2019 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 23 August 2019 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|David Koch|answered=yes}} |
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While it is possible he may have had three children (I do not know) neither source 82 nor source 83 seems to include that information. Please consider updating the source. ] (]) 23:43, 23 August 2019 (UTC) |
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:] '''Done'''<!-- Template:ESp --> Found a better one, thanks! - ] <small>(])</small> 06:19, 24 August 2019 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 25 August 2019 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|David Koch|answered=yes}} |
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Change picture to non-smiling ] (]) 06:54, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
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: No, per ] ] (]) 08:36, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
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{{Hat|Not germane to improving this topic}} |
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== Cadaverous grin appropriate for a major climate criminal == |
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The skeletal grin in the subject's photo is grimly appropriate for this major climate criminal, and the major malignant impact Koch has had, and will continue to have, on life on planet Earth. |
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There's more here on his role as a long-ago college basketball player -- and of course philanthropy! -- than there is on his much more historically significant lucratively funded long-term campaign to prevent actions being taken against catastrophic climate change. Way to go on the zero credibility front there, wikipedia. |
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] <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 02:00, 27 August 2019 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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{{Hab}} |
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== Criticism == |
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There is nothing wrong with criticism, but Bill Maher's remark is just a rant with no content. So what if Maher is "glad he's dead?" Where is the conversation? I will accept a criticism on this page that is thoughtful and not just insulting. Why do you want an encyclopedia quoting a statement that says "I hope the end was painful?" That is not criticism. Its just plain mean, and promotes hatred. If you want to say something about a disagreement about policies or opinions, do so. But not like this. Thank you. ] (]) 13:58, 27 August 2019 (UTC) |
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:: The content and context is there though. It's explicit in it's reference to the Koch's role as funders of climate change denial. it's not about what the rehetorical 'you' wants to say. There are plenty of mean things on wikipedia. ] (]) 14:07, 27 August 2019 (UTC) |
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:::It is irrelevant if the "content and context" is there. We are trying to create an encyclopedia with a NPOV. We are supposed to "stick to the facts." If I had my way the entire sentence would be removed. Really, who cares what Bill Maher has to say about Koch or climate change. You should find a quote from an expert on climate change who has criticized the policies of the Koch brothers. That is true "content and context." Bill Maher is just a commentator, and not an expert on climate change. I am willing to compromise and leave out "I hope he died painfully." That is plain ridiculous. Also, there might be lots of mean stuff on Misplaced Pages, but that is not proof that "mean stuff" belongs here. And just because there is a source does not make it appropriate either. thanks for listening.] (]) 14:16, 27 August 2019 (UTC) |
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::::That not what ] is about. It isn't sanitising criticism, even if the language is immoderate. Bill Maher is a notable commentator with a wide reach and public voice and platform. He's undeniably partisan but that shouldn't be surprising in a criticism section. ] (]) 14:26, 27 August 2019 (UTC) |
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::::: I really dont understand you, and I am trying, really. Fine, Maher is a respected commentator, and I guess a lot of people care about his criticism. But his criticism begins and ends with ""He and his brother have done more than anybody to fund climate science deniers for decades." I am willing to let this stay on the page, even though we dont even know if this is even true, we only have Maher's word on this, which is why I dont think this is valid criticism. But lets say we leave this statement, how is "I'm glad he's dead" relevant to this? It says more about Maher than it does about Koch. And "I hope the end was painful"? Really? That is not criticism. How is it criticism? Can you show me similar statements on other articles which are considered appropriate? If you can do that, maybe you will convince me. But from my perspective, this is just the ranting of a hateful, bombastic media guy trying to excite others to feel hatred, instead of thinking about the facts. ] (]) 14:36, 27 August 2019 (UTC) |
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We don't just have Maher's word on Koch's funding of Climate Change denial, there's extensive coverage of that, and he funded the Cato Institute for heaven's sake. And, while there's no point appealing to ],since you asked, here you go for more "I'm glad he's dead' criticism - ] ] (]) 14:51, 27 August 2019 (UTC) |
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: If the issue you want is denial, then find decent sources for that; Maher isn't a good source. As for his rudeness, that belongs on his page perhaps under "examples of M's incivility" but I don't think it adds much here. Other than indicating that some people really really didn't link Koch ] (]) 19:39, 27 August 2019 (UTC) |
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:: No, the issue I think should be covered here is the very vehemence of Maher's criticism. That Koch inspired that level of incivility from a public figure is striking, and indicative of the widespread dislike of him. |
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:::Bill Maher is a comedian, and a hyperbolic one at that. Nothing about the content added related to Maher quote is encyclopedic. Reads a lot more like a tabloid headline then something that should be included on a WP BLP. ] (]) 03:02, 29 August 2019 (UTC) |
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:As for funding of climate change denial, that probably should be covered in more depth too, there are enough good sources out there.] (]) 05:16, 28 August 2019 (UTC) |
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::I don't agree with the funding of climate change denial section. The Guardian source is a one-sided opinion piece that never adequately connects the think tanks it's pointing fingers at with actual climate change. For the second part of the section, the allegations are unverified and not encyclopedic in any way. This is a BLP about David Koch, not a place to ] dissatisfaction think tanks and climate change. ] (]) 03:10, 29 August 2019 (UTC) |
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:::This sesction is about criticism of Koch, and criticism of him as a climate change denier is extensive and well sourced. |
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There seems to be a consensus building for at least removing at least the extensive detail on Maher's criticism, so I see that should probably be done.] (]) 05:09, 29 August 2019 (UTC) |
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* I agree with excluding the Maher quote. We have way betetr sources for his funding of climate change denial and the rest. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 16:41, 29 August 2019 (UTC) |
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*"If we can't get him on this, let's get him on that." Really seems like a lot of good-faith editing going on here guys...keep it up. ] (]) 17:08, 29 August 2019 (UTC) |
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:: It's a criticism section. It's necessarily POV in some respect. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 19:45, 29 August 2019 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 27 August 2019 == |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 27 August 2019 == |
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"Koch Industries, a private company, is the United States’ 17th-largest producer of greenhouse gases and the 13th-biggest water polluter, according to research from the University of Massachusetts Amherst – ahead of oil giants Exxon Mobil, Occidental Petroleum and Phillips 66. The conglomerate has committed hundreds of environmental, workplace safety, labor and other violations. It allegedly stole oil from Indian reservations, won business in foreign countries with bribery, and one of its crumbling butane pipelines killed two teenagers, resulting in a nearly $300m wrongful death settlement. The dangerous methane leakage, carbon emissions, chemical spills and other environmental injustices enacted by Koch’s companies have imperiled the planet and allegedly brought cancer to many people." |
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"Koch Industries, a private company, is the United States’ 17th-largest producer of greenhouse gases and the 13th-biggest water polluter, according to research from the University of Massachusetts Amherst – ahead of oil giants Exxon Mobil, Occidental Petroleum and Phillips 66. The conglomerate has committed hundreds of environmental, workplace safety, labor and other violations. It allegedly stole oil from Indian reservations, won business in foreign countries with bribery, and one of its crumbling butane pipelines killed two teenagers, resulting in a nearly $300m wrongful death settlement. The dangerous methane leakage, carbon emissions, chemical spills and other environmental injustices enacted by Koch’s companies have imperiled the planet and allegedly brought cancer to many people." |
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:That Guardian article is an opinion piece and therefore not reliable as a source for statements asserted as fact.] (]) 19:47, 25 June 2020 (UTC) |
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== Charlie Lomax == ] (]) 20:17, 27 August 2019 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> This quote is about the company, rather than the person, moreover the issues raised here are covered in the article (NB the second paragraph of the lede).--] (]) 22:58, 27 August 2019 (UTC) |
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== Use of name in phishing? == |
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Is it appropriate to include warnings about phishing attempts using Mr. Koch's name when the message in question explicitly includes a link to this article on Misplaced Pages? The email in question is a fairly standard setup - "this millionaire died and left 2 million dollars to a bunch of randomly selected individuals." Completely uninventive BS, but it claims that you can verify that the grant exists. A section in the article explaining the scam might help save the people gullible enough to believe it. |
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== Lede rfc == |
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] (]) 05:11, 16 March 2020 (UTC) |
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:I agree - they are floating around again now. Let's try. ] (]) 19:13, 1 April 2022 (UTC) |
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::@], I found a suitable template and added something. ] (]) 19:19, 1 April 2022 (UTC) |
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::: No. This is a bad idea ] (]) 20:53, 1 April 2022 (UTC) |
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::::Agreed. No specific violation of ], but the info is not encyclopedic. – ] (]) 22:03, 1 April 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::@] and @]: well it was a bit ]. But surely the information is (at least arguably) noteworthy; the issue is how to present it. I'll try something in the body of the article: see what you think. ] (]) 22:20, 1 April 2022 (UTC) |
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== Work in progress: Personal life == |
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{{rfc|pol|rfcid=57475C8}} |
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{{ping|User:Lynn Artz}} and anyone else: I've rearranged the "Personal life" section to get it into chronological order. I still need to remove some unnecessary citations and probably add this source: https://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/16/realestate/what-price-provenance.html Please feel free to jump in and take over. Cheers! ] (]) 17:54, 18 May 2020 (UTC) |
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Should the lede include mention of David Koch's role in ] funding of climate change denial? <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 19:20, 29 August 2019 (UTC) |
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===Opinions=== |
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* Support, as proposer. It's the entire reason for the relentless addition of grave dancing which we have to keep reverting. The fact it was not in there before he died is irrelevant: firstly because it probably should have been and secondly because it is a ''primery'' focus of large amounts of coverage since his death so regardless of the status months ago it is well past passing ]. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 19:20, 29 August 2019 (UTC) |
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* '''Support''' though you might have more luck if you call it skepticism... <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 20:07, 29 August 2019 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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*'''Oppose''' No it shouldn't, and neither should the Bill Maher content that is continually being re-added along with the climate info. There is an entire WP dedicated to ]... Seems a lot more appropriate to elaborate on the subject over there than slap "dark money" allegations in the lead of a ]. ] says "When a subject dies, the lead need not be radically reworked." The recent death shouldn't be some sort of opening for a drive-by ] push. ] (]) 04:19, 30 August 2019 (UTC) |
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* '''Support''' Yes it should be in the lead as it was a major back ground and source of support from him. He is well known for it and its well referenced. His "philanthropy" was at best self serving yet its displayed in the lead and no one seems to be fighting that. His activism in politics, support of removing environmental regulations, and denial of climate change was more out spoken and more referenced. ] (]) 11:38, 30 August 2019 (UTC) |
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**'''Comment''' Just because someone is "well known" for something doesn't mean it's a matter of fact. Just because something is well-sourced doesn't mean it's a matter of fact. We're trying to abide by ] and ] here...these are '''allegations''' that don't belong in the lead section whatsoever. ] (]) 16:32, 30 August 2019 (UTC) |
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*** Do you even know what a reference is and or a fact? And you do know what the L is WP:BLP stands for right? Let alone it's a well known fact of his spending and support into denial of climate change and activism. They are not allegations but something that has been proven and supported by many reliable references. I am not really sure what your rant is even trying to say as your lack of understanding basic vocabulary seems to be absent. ] (]) 20:54, 30 August 2019 (UTC) |
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:The TV show Air Disasters on Smithsonian Channel, Season 2, Episode 10, Cleared for Disaster, covers the airline crash and Koch is interviewed. Would a reference to that episode be good to include? ] (]) 19:35, 2 July 2023 (UTC) |
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===Discussion=== |
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;Current second paragraph |
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{{tq2|Koch was a ]. He was the 1980 ] candidate for ] and helped finance the campaign. He founded ].<ref name=Mazur>Suzan Mazur, , ''North Atlantic Books'', 2010, 343 pages</ref> He donated to political advocacy groups<ref name="Wallet" /> and ], almost entirely ].<ref>{{Cite web |url=https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summary.php?id=D000000186&cycle=A |title=Koch Industries: Summary |publisher=OpenSecrets.org |access-date=June 10, 2015}}</ref> He moved to the Republican Party in 1984; in 2012 he spent over $100 million to oppose the re-election of President ].<ref>{{Cite news |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/15/us/politics/122-million-in-2012-spending-by-koch-group.html |title=$122 Million in 2012 Spending by Koch Group |last=Confessore |first=Nicholas |date=2013-11-14 |work=The New York Times |access-date=2019-08-25 |issn=0362-4331}}</ref><ref>{{Cite news |url=https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/tariniparti/billionaire-david-koch-dies |title=Billionaire David Koch, Who Shaped Modern Conservative Politics, Has Died |access-date=2019-08-25 |publisher=]}}</ref> }} |
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;Proposed second paragraph |
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{{tq2|As a member of the ], he was the party's nominee for ] during the ]. Four years later, he became a ] and founded ].<ref name=Mazur>Suzan Mazur, , ''North Atlantic Books'', 2010, 343 pages</ref> He donated to political advocacy groups<ref name="Wallet" /> and ];<ref>{{Cite web |url=https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summary.php?id=D000000186&cycle=A |title=Koch Industries: Summary |publisher=OpenSecrets.org |access-date=June 10, 2015}}</ref> including when he spent over $100 million to oppose the re-election of President ] in 2012.<ref>{{Cite news |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/15/us/politics/122-million-in-2012-spending-by-koch-group.html |title=$122 Million in 2012 Spending by Koch Group |last=Confessore |first=Nicholas |date=2013-11-14 |work=The New York Times |access-date=2019-08-25 |issn=0362-4331}}</ref><ref>{{Cite news |url=https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/tariniparti/billionaire-david-koch-dies |title=Billionaire David Koch, Who Shaped Modern Conservative Politics, Has Died |access-date=2019-08-25 |publisher=]}}</ref> Koch has faced criticism for helping to finance ] and his use of ].<ref>{{cite news |last1=Heer |first1=Jeet |title=Even David Koch’s Philanthropy Was Toxic |url=https://www.thenation.com/article/even-david-kochs-philanthropy-was-toxic/ |accessdate=30 August 2019 |work=The Nation |date=26 August 2019 |language=en}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Hiltzik |first1=Michael |title=Column: How MIT whitewashed the climate change denialism of a major donor, David Koch |url=https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2019-08-26/how-mit-whitewashed-david-koch |accessdate=30 August 2019 |work=Los Angeles Times |date=26 August 2019 |language=en}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Mayer |first1=Jane |title=David Koch vs. PBS |url=https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/05/27/a-word-from-our-sponsor |accessdate=30 August 2019 |work=The New Yorker |date=20 May 2013 |language=en}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Lenfestey |first1=James P. |title=David Koch, 1940 to 2019: A shameful legacy of outsized anti-science influence |url=http://www.startribune.com/david-koch-1940-to-2019-a-shameful-legacy-of-outsized-anti-science-influence/558362382/ |accessdate=30 August 2019 |work=Star Tribune |date=26 August 2019 |language=en}}</ref>}} |
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Disinformation, climate-denial ] (]) 11:04, 23 November 2022 (UTC) |
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;<small>References</small> |
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{{collapse|{{reflist-talk}}}} |
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:This entry is astonishingly hushed about David Koch's involvement in disinformation and climate denial. There is a little mention of sources criticizing Koch, followed by some confusing muffled distraction. The entry is evocative of Koch's history of muddying waters in order to stall for time on scientific information that could threaten his profits. It appears to have been written by people in the echo-chamber think tanks Koch funds. ] (]) 11:09, 23 November 2022 (UTC) |
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I propose the following change as worded to most accurately summarize the body of the article. –<span style="font-family:CG Times">] ]<sup>]</sup></span> 23:16, 30 August 2019 (UTC) |
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Some of this material by User:NMS Bill/Koch Industries/Corporate history should be integrated into this article on David H.Koch as it contains content on the history of Koch Industries.
The entry on David Koch needs to be less comically propagandistic and darkly lacking in credibility. As it stands, the entry is a potentially considerable indictment of an underlying lack of credibility of wikipedia as a whole.
The Aug. 27 2019 Guardian described David koch's activities in these terms:
"Koch Industries, a private company, is the United States’ 17th-largest producer of greenhouse gases and the 13th-biggest water polluter, according to research from the University of Massachusetts Amherst – ahead of oil giants Exxon Mobil, Occidental Petroleum and Phillips 66. The conglomerate has committed hundreds of environmental, workplace safety, labor and other violations. It allegedly stole oil from Indian reservations, won business in foreign countries with bribery, and one of its crumbling butane pipelines killed two teenagers, resulting in a nearly $300m wrongful death settlement. The dangerous methane leakage, carbon emissions, chemical spills and other environmental injustices enacted by Koch’s companies have imperiled the planet and allegedly brought cancer to many people."
Is it appropriate to include warnings about phishing attempts using Mr. Koch's name when the message in question explicitly includes a link to this article on Misplaced Pages? The email in question is a fairly standard setup - "this millionaire died and left 2 million dollars to a bunch of randomly selected individuals." Completely uninventive BS, but it claims that you can verify that the grant exists. A section in the article explaining the scam might help save the people gullible enough to believe it.
Rashkavar (talk) 05:11, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
