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Swaminarayan's Views on the Caste System

In referencing Swaminarayan’s view of the caste system from the book Swaminarayan Hinduism: Tradition, Adaptation, Identity (Williams, Trivedi), it doesn’t adhere to WP:NPOV. The sentence cited in this article is part of a broader discussion (which is disregarded) on how Swaminarayan opposed the caste system and this claim can be considered cherrypicked. See below for excerpts from the same book (Swaminarayan Hinduism: Tradition, Adaptation, Identity); if the group agrees, can it please be removed?

• Swaminarayan is credited for advocating purity of conduct and high standards of morality during an era of moral degradation and irregularities in practice of faith (page 96-97). It was because of Swaminarayan’s teachings that ‘many lower strata components embraced the Swaminarayan sect.’ The lower strata were drawn to the Swaminarayan sect because Swaminarayan, himself, ignored the differences in caste (pg 105).
  
• The claim “Swaminarayan is also being criticised for being supportive of the caste system" can be supported by directly quoting a verse from the Shikshapatri, however, scholars argue this was a method of Swaminarayan’s reform efforts. By not completely negating the ‘norms’ of the era, Swaminarayan was attempting to subtly subvert. It is because of Swaminarayan’s incremental and subtle approach that the sect survived and transformed into a national form focused on inclusiveness (page 107).
  
• If one analyzes the crux of Swaminarayan’s teachings, it is clear that caste plays no role in the doctrine. He taught that the true self is the atma, the soul, which is distinct from the physical body, and thus, castes are false and irrelevant (page 115).
• During Swaminarayan's era, various religious groups had ‘caste-based memberships’ however, Swaminarayan was known for welcoming people of all castes. In 1823, a British official wrote in the Asiatic Journal their observation of various castes and classes being followers of Swaminarayan (page 117).
  
• Additionally, Bishop Heber's colonial informant stateed that Swaminarayan 'destroyed the yoke of caste' (page 119).
  

The above examples and excerpts clearly show a contradiction to what is written in this article and negates the claim that Swaminarayan supported the caste system. I invite all to review the excerpts posted and we can reach a consensus on improving this article to uphold Misplaced Pages's core pillars.
Apollo1203 (talk) 03:55, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

• Read WP:Criticism and read in table that how criticism of religion is made. It’s created by ‘Criticisms’ not by praise. What you’ve mentioned deserves place in article related to Sahjanand and his spiritual tradition which is primary viewpoint. — Harshil 04:27, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

The points I have made are not praise but factual evidence from an academic source, the same source that was cherrypicked to make a claim against Swaminarayan as supporting caste. I will let everyone else weigh in on this topic. Apollo1203 (talk) 05:04, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Did you care to read essay which I cited? It’s clearly written that criticism sections are for negative viewpoints. If you want to add this then you can add it in articles related to Sahajananda and his sect, not in criticism of his sect. — Harshil 05:11, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

@Harshil169: Yes, I did review the essay, thank you for sharing it with me. Based on my review of the essay I have a few observations for the group to consider. Please reference the WP:Criticism essay in parallel with the points below:

• As you are the original creator of this article, it is apparent you took the approach of ‘Criticism of…’ when creating this article. The description for this type of page begins with ‘This approach is generally discouraged…” Knowing this, it seemed like you concluded this was the best approach to create this article despite it not being the ‘best’ choice.
• Next, the criticism essay begins by saying that articles should contain positive and negative viewpoints from reliable sources and that positive and negative should be presented to give balance. When we analyze this particular article against this statement, this article has been ‘censored’ in an attempt to exclude positive viewpoints. Regarding the sources, we have had numerous discussions on the talk page disputing the validity of some of the sources being used.
• Furthermore, the criticism essay mentions that the policy WP:BALASPS states that criticism of a subject should be proportionate to the overall weight of criticism in a reliable sources on the subject. If we use the caste example, the source that is being used (Williams and Trivedi) is not about Swaminarayan’s support of the caste system, in fact, it is the complete opposite. For a deeper understanding of this, please read chapter 5 and 6 from Williams and Trivedi book. Therefore, it is safe to say this article is also in violation of WP:BALASPS
• Finally, the essay you shared states that an article dedicated to negative criticism is usually discouraged due to violation of NPOV.

After reviewing the various points, it appears that this article does not meet many standards or guidelines that have been described in the essay you shared with me. I suggest reviewing the criticism essay you have shared as it will provide you with guiding principles on creating a criticism article/section in the future.Apollo1203 (talk) 05:49, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

• Few points you’ve missed: Criticism section is for philosophy and religion.
• The inclusivity of all things were necessary for articles of BLP, not for religion.
• It’s not written that criticism article (don’t focus on everything, focus on article and section) should include all aspects including justification.
• Positive things are for Swaminarayan (spiritual tradition). You can add there; it deserves place there and it’s not prohibitive by policy.
• You’re new to Misplaced Pages, take some time to make yourself familiar about policy regarding how articles are created. Let’s wait what others say about this but this is not for articles of criticism, that’s sure. — Harshil 05:57, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

@Harshil169: You have noted a few bullet points that contradict what @Ms Sarah Welch: has stated in the Gandhi section of the talk page. Her points align with what I was mentioning above that this section/claim is bias towards the negative and not inclusive of all material. As stated by Ms Sarah Welch: “ can accomplished in this article by including criticism with context, and any responses / defenses / apologetics / clarifications about that criticism or opposed to that criticism, again with context, all from good quality reliable sources. Opposing criticism and apologetics are not the same thing as praise” Based on her comments, I have added to the caste criticism to show all sides of this claim and not just the cherrypicked quote which was used earlier. Others who may have an opinion on this matter can also weigh-in.Apollo1203 (talk) 06:59, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

@Apollo1203: That's for what consensus and third opinion is. Also, don't change context of the criticism. Page number 106 is for another matter and page number 117 is for different matter and why did you remove the quote stated by Sahajananda as reference without gaining consensus and seeking third opinion? It was stated by him and it was criticised. Read WP:NOTOR before telling simple addition as original research.-- Harshil 07:34, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

@Harshil169: If you thoroughly look through chapter 5 and 6 from Swaminarayan Hinduism book (Williams, Trivedi), you will see that both chapters are dedicated to Swaminarayan’s ideology and stance on caste. You are saying don’t cite page 106, but the exact quote on page 106 is, “In the context of criticism is the view that Swaminarayan was supportive of the varna and caste identity…” (which you have also used in your original writing). Please explain how page 106 is not relevant? Furthermore, page 117 states exactly what is the opposite of what is stated on page 106, which provides NPOV. Page 117 states that British officials noted that Swaminarayan was not supportive of the caste system. In my edits, the direct quote from Swaminarayan, which is taken from the Shikshapatri, was not removed but simply summarized in the sentence for better readability. I suggest thoroughly reading chapters 5 and 6 prior to writing or picking statements from them to further an argument as that is not best practice. I will wait for others to chime in and support my edit before reverting. I believe my edit displayed the negative and positive which follows Misplaced Pages policy of writing a criticism page. Apollo1203 (talk) 18:11, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Apollo1203’s explanations about the best practices regarding criticism page which have been corroborated by Ms Sarah Welch. Moreover, it is clear to me that@Harshil169 is absolutely wrong in the points that he makes about criticism sections not having to abide by WP:NPOV. If further guidance is required, please see also WP: POVFORK, which again clearly states that any criticism pages must consider both merits and faults and cannot be entirely negative. I would like to examine Apollo 1203’s edits to provide some feedback, however they have been reverted by @Harshil169. He has reverted my good-faith edits, and it seems he is reverted Apollo1203’s as well. I would suggest to Apollo1203 to post their version onto their sandbox and put a link on the talk page so we can develop some consensus and move forward.Sacredsea (talk) 19:11, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

The points made by @Apollo1203: seem to be sensible. I don't see how @Harshil169:'s references to Misplaced Pages policy on are applicable to this case. So this criticism should be removed. Tale.Spin (talk) 23:23, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

@Harshil169: you reverted Apollo1203's edits, but if you look at the book, the chapter is written by Vibhuti Parikh, not Raymond Williams. Should we replace Williams with Parikh? Please be more careful with reverting others' good faith edits . It appears you disagree with all of us about how NPOV should appear in a criticism article such as this one, which is what consensus is for, but it's even more difficult when you are not looking at these secondary sources closely. I think a sandbox version would be helpful for us all to review and comment @Apollo1203:. Moksha88 (talk) 02:05, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

@Moksha88: I have placed my edits regarding Swaminarayan and the caste system in my sandbox here: https://en.wikipedia.org/User:Apollo1203/sandbox?section=1. I hope everyone has a chance to review and provide feedback. Apollo1203 (talk) 04:45, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

One of the early criticisms of the Swaminarayan community was based on the issue of caste practices. Apollo1203 has proposed some text in his sandbox which starts off saying “Swaminarayan has been criticized for being supportive of the caste system”.

However, after reading chapters 5 and 6 of the Swaminarayan Hinduism book from Oxford University Press, it is clear that the early criticism against the Swaminarayan community was not because Swaminarayan was supportive of the caste system, but because Swaminarayan opposed it. The scholars who have written Ch.5 and Ch.6 have convincingly argued this with multiple references from multiple angles. In fact, they argue that some of the accommodations that Swaminarayan appears to make with regard to caste practices are to forestall the violent criticism that he faced due to his opposition to caste discrimination. I think this important aspect of early criticism of the Swaminarayan community may have been misunderstood in this article, and I have added a revised text in Apollo1203’s sandbox correcting that. The point about Swaminarayan being supportive of the caste system is a modern criticism coming from a modern scholar whose perspective is opposed by other modern scholars. I have also tried to incorporate this in my revised text. I have also tried to incorporate some of Apollo1203’s text into the revised text I have proposed. After reading Ch5 and Ch6, I have also included some of the context they have provided on Swaminarayan’s approach to caste in order to make this section balanced. It would be great if others can take a look and share their thoughts. https://en.wikipedia.org/User:Apollo1203/sandbox?section=1Sacredsea (talk) 18:10, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

After reviewing Sacredsea's analysis and writing, I believe the edited version is best fit for the page. The correct perspective from the Chapter 5 and 6 have been brought out through the edited version. Apollo1203 (talk) 01:42, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

Sacredsea's revision is much more aligned with NPOV, and I will cross reference with Raymond Williams's earlier book tomorrow to see if there is any criticism present in this book. Moksha88 (talk) 04:43, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for the edits and review Sacredsea and Moksha88. I've edited the article to reflect the new version and added a subsectionApollo1203 (talk) 10:53, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

I revised the segment on Swaminarayan and caste within the early criticism section according to the suggestions of Ms Sarah Welch, particularly 1)starting the section with the relevant criticism and 2)giving an expanded version of the criticism with more details. Ms Sarah Welch states that the apologetics and explanations should come after this. It makes sense that the page, being about criticism, should have stated criticism come first and any explanations or contexts required to understand the criticism should come after that. However, according to Misplaced Pages’s definition of apologetics, I don’t see any apologetics in my writeup of the caste section or the Gandhi section. There is disagreement amongst scholars writing in peer-reviewed sources, which I have clearly stated. Moreover, various scholars have provided context of criticisms based on historical analysis, which I think is different from apologetics - (the religious discipline of defending religious doctrines). Not that I have anything against apologetics, but I just wanted to note that the term may not apply here.As I have mentioned in my earlier post, with regard to caste, there are widely prevalent criticisms in the early years against Swaminarayan’s rejection of caste discrimination. In modern times, Haridman seems to criticize Swaminarayan as supportive of caste discrimination based on some public writings of his, but the bulk of scholarly sources appears to reject Hardiman’s view as superficial. So, while it seems to me Hardiman’s may be a fringe view, at least in the current writeup, I have noted Hardiman’s view along with ample scholarly opposition to his view.Finally, I have added my revised text 2 in Apollo1203’s sandbox, but since the earlier revised text has been incorporated into the article, I’m going to WP:BB and change the article with this revised text 2 and await editors’ comments. However, if anyone objects, and wants to revert the text and comment on the revised text 2 from the sandbox, I’m fine with that as well.Sacredsea (talk) 16:52, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

Can anyone access the research paper described over this piece.

Also see Hardiman, David (1988). "Class Base of Swaminarayan Sect". Economic and Political Weekly. 23 (37): 1907–1912. ISSN 0012-9976.

There's a hell lot of criticism, per my initial crawls of relevant journals and all that. ∯WBG 06:39, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

I took a quick look. I can likely get it by asking my librarian, but then Mehta's Arthat article is barely cited (Hardiman does, on Google scholar). Unlikely to be mainstream scholarship. More criticism from sources such as Hardiman should be stated upfront in each section, and any apologetics thereafter should be summarized. Instead of a few words or a short clip of criticism, the "criticism" should be expanded, better explained with more details, if and where available in peer-reviewed sources. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:10, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

@Winged Blades of Godric: The criticism summary in the recently revised caste-related section neither properly reflects Williams/Hardiman/etc, nor does it fairly attribute the summarized views to the authors. I will bandage it by this weekend, or sooner. If you have time, please check and revise further. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:37, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

@Ms Sarah Welch and Winged Blades of Godric: Makarand Mehta is well respected historian of Gujarat and is mainstream scholar IMO. See Arhat article must be important even if not cited much. I have used his works in citations and they were of good quality.-Nizil (talk) 14:03, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Nizil: Mehta is cited by Hardiman, and that seconds what you are saying. The critical views in the Hardiman source mentioned by WBG above and one we have cited, reflect Mehta. I have no objections to Mehta (or anyone else) but would prefer a secondary source over a primary source, and something from a peer-reviewed publication. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:21, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

The Dalit Temple Entry Movements in Maharashtra and Gujarat 1930-48 by Mehta (p.9, p.12 onwards) has information on Dalit Temple Entry issue. It may be relevant in Caste section. -Nizil (talk) 14:53, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Indeed. Perhaps Sacredsea, you or someone can summarize/cite p.9 onwards. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:40, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

@Ms Sarah Welch, Winged Blades of Godric, Nizil Shah, Sacredsea, and Apollo1203: On 10/18, Ms Sarah Welch outlined, "Try to draft an NPOV summary that covers that criticism from all sides. The draft can be on this talk page or your sandbox." We ought to make these suggestions in a draft form before making edits on the page to avoid misunderstanding and miscommunication. As such, I have reverted all good faith edits back to the 10/17 version. Below are the sandboxes in which we can make these suggestions.

Criticism on gifts: https://en.wikipedia.org/User:Moksha88/sandbox

Criticism on caste system: https://en.wikipedia.org/User:Apollo1203/sandbox

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Moksha88 (talk • contribs)

Moksha88: please sign your comments. Yes, I would have preferred the sandbox approach, but much editorial water has flowed over that sandbox. What we have now reflects a collaborative improvement of some sections. No need for the deep revert. Let us use the current version, in this article or sandbox, then move this forward. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 19:56, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

I've moved the discussion from the 'Can anyone' sub-heading to this section as the discussion is related to caste. As previously done, by the suggestion of Ms Sarah Welch, we should edit this section in the sandbox till a consensus is reach. There are still open discussion items that have not been resolved. I've copied the current version in my sandbox and I believe we should all direct ourselves there to make edits. The original version that I had written, as well as the two iterations by Sacredsea are also present there. https://en.wikipedia.org/User:Apollo1203/sandbox#Early_Criticism_-_Swaminarayan_and_CasteApollo1203 (talk) 02:28, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Sexual abuse allegations

@Harshil169:In reviewing Pramukh Swami Maharaj’s article history, these allegations were posted and subsequently removed in October 2014 on the basis of WP:NOTGOSSIP. I therefore think these allegations should be excluded based on WP:NOTSCANDAL which @Ms Sarah Welch: referenced above in clarifying the exclusion of the Morari Bapu claims. Moksha88 (talk) 05:03, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

@Moksha88: Can you focus on one issue at one moment? It's difficult for any person to address four issues at same time. -- Harshil 05:05, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

@Moksha88: I agree. I can't see how these allegations meet the four criteria of notability stated in WP:EVENTCRITERIA, especially since it looks like the only articles referenced are from 2013 when these allegations arose. I vote to remove.Apollo1203 (talk) 05:57, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

@ThaNDNman224 please don't make changes without first reaching consensus. Moksha88 (talk) 17:53, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

@Harshil169 please stop reverting edits that are being made in good faith in maintaining NPOV for a criticism article. As you said, let's try to reach consensus. There is no reason for edit warring. Moksha88 (talk) 18:03, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

:@Harshil169 please stop reverting edits that are being made in good faith in maintaining NPOV for a criticism article. As you said, let's try to reach consensus. There is no reason for edit warring. Moksha88 (talk) 18:03, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

My apologies @Moksha88:, reading the prior history here as well as the reasons for removal I believe it's fully in line with the policies, specifically WP:BLP. Please go see the talk page on the Pramukh Swami Maharaj wiki page where this was previously discussed and removed. ThaNDNman224 (talk) 18:07, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree that on the basis of WP:NOTGOSSIP and WP:EVENTCRITERIA, this should be removed.Sacredsea (talk) 19:13, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

@ThaNDNman224 no worries. I just don't want this editing process to become uncivil. @Harshil169: is making a lot of reverts, and I don't want him to feel frustrated. Moksha88 (talk) 02:10, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

To that effect, consensus has been reached. I will remove the final reference to these allegations. Thank you all for commenting. Moksha88 (talk) 04:26, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Adding my two cents - I agree that the verbiage related to the allegations should be removed on the basis of WP:NOTGOSSIP and WP:EVENTCRITERIA. Actionjackson09 (talk) 14:05, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

The way

you folks are moving about; the page will either get sysop-protected or you two, blocked for slow-edit-warring. Please follow dispute resolution ladder. I will be taking a detailed look, soon enough .... ∯WBG 09:03, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

@Winged Blades of Godric: thank you for your guidance. Do you prefer we wait for your review of the situation or proceed to a noticeboard? Moksha88 (talk) 21:14, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

I concur with WBG. You all, including Harshil169, are making a few good points but a lot of claims/accusations/posturing. Please welcome the good points on relevant criticism, read the peer-reviewed sources and then try to draft an NPOV summary that covers that criticism from all sides. The draft can be on this talk page or your sandbox. For example, the allegations and criticism about caste discrimination and related practices within the Swaminarayan sect are relevant and supported in RS such as Williams. It should be included in this article. Williams includes the scholarly response in the pages right after the criticism, and a more comprehensive discussion in chapter 6 on this topic (see). Once you have posted a carefully drafted short summary section based on these relevant sections in the peer-reviewed sources, discuss that summary on this talk page. Hopefully, you will reach a consensus. If not, after a reasonable effort, then you can proceed to WP:DR as WBG suggests. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 10:40, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

I have been attempting the approach suggested by Ms Sarah Welch (see the Gandhi section). If what I have written has come across as accusations or posturing, I am sorry, that was not my intent. As for the suggestion to similarly improve the caste discrimination criticism, I have added some revised text to Apollo1203’s sandbox for everyone’s comments and a section on the talk page above explaining it. Sacredsea (talk) 18:06, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

That section should start with the criticism, similar in style to the older versions of this article:

The Swaminarayan sect and Sahajanand have been criticized for being supportive of the caste system, states Williams.:106 This criticism is based on the following statement attributed to Sahajanand, "None shall receive food and water, which are unacceptable at the hands of some people under scruples of caste system, may the same happen to the sanctified portions of the Shri Krishna, except at Jagannath Puri."

The explanations and apologetics in your draft should come after this. Please consider re-arranging. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:57, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

My response is above https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Criticism_of_Swaminarayan_sect#Swaminarayan's_Views_on_the_Caste_SystemSacredsea (talk) 17:24, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

Modern Criticism - Grandiose Temples

I think the criticism regarding 'grandiose temples' is not notable enough to merit a place in this article. It is not validated as a criticism just because 'some Hindus' hold this belief/opinion (WP:NOTOPINION) as Sarah Welch has pointed out earlier. Apollo1203 (talk) 03:28, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Agree with Apollo here. Doesn't feel like this is a critcisim worth including in the article.Actionjackson09 (talk) 16:00, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

In reviewing the earlier version of this page, it also seemed like this statement was gossip alongside the remarks by Morari Bapu and sexual abuse allegations. I feel there's enough consensus to remove this statement.Moksha88 (talk) 22:07, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Request for comment

Should criticism of this sect by Dayananda Saraswati, which he wrote in Satyarth Prakash, be included? --Krishna's flute (talk) 03:53, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Krishna's flute this discussion has taken place in the section above: https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Swaminarayan_Sampraday#Dayanand_Saraswati's_opinion:_WP:FRINGE,_WP:UNDUE? Please review the discussion there and feel free to give your thoughts on the topic. Apollo1203 (talk) 06:02, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Hey all, I'm just looking at this rfc here, and as a passerby on this thread and reading WP:RFC I'm a little confused as to why it's here. It seems that at the link mentioned above that consensus has been reached on this matter. Furthermore, Satyarth Prakash reads like it's a primary source and in violation of WP:RS. The secondary source cited by user Harshil169 seems to go awry of WP:UNDUE, WP:WWIN and WP:GRATUITOUS especially the "except few sodomy cases". This seems oddly picked out and unencyclopedic. As far as I can see this RFC has no need to remain open and I am closing it. ThaNDNman224 (talk) 02:59, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

No expert of Misplaced Pages has commented on this. This expert doesn't violate WWIN and UNDUE. RfC is for uninvolved editors to look at the matter.(Personal attack removed) RfC is for getting wide range consensus from all. Close if you want to block yourself for TE. Krishna's flute (talk) 11:58, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

@Krishna’s flute: No. RfC isn’t for any expert but to give inputs which have not been discussed earlier. — Harshil 14:38, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

• Yes the book itself and authir himself is notable. Comments from this book has been used in criticism of Islam and christianity then why this not? Also, WP:FRINGE is for flat earthers, moon landing consipers and geocentric pseudoscientists not for Vedic scholars like Dayananda. There is nothing fringe in his comments. All things are simple and followers of this (Personal attack removed) can obviously offended but Misplaced Pages is nor censored. Put this here. This is not undue or fringe. The book about sect is primary here, someone other's book which criticizes is secondary and coverage about thay book is tertiary. So this is not primary.-106.213.163.246 (talk) 12:17, 24 November 2019 (UTC) This IP is probably single purpose and has no other contributions outside subject.-- Harshil

• Yes I too support inclusion because Criticism of Muhammad, Criticism of Islam and all other has separate section of Dayananda Saraswati. Sahjananda was not special or above criticism. He was human and Dayananda exposed him. WP:Fringe is only for pseudoscience like mentioned above, it is not for opinion of scholars and all criticism pages has view of Dayananda. He was Hindu revivalist. I support inclusion here. Book, author and all other things are notable. No other problem.Krishna's flute (talk) 13:19, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Krishna's flute based on your conjecture regarding being an expert and the lack of edit count of those commenting here, you and the anonymous IP (who favor 'Yes') would not be considered experts on this topic and your opinions would be null on this matter. Anonymous IP has 4 edits (coincidentally only on the Swaminarayan page), and you only have 32 edits. Whoever will be closing this discussion, please keep this in mind. Apollo1203 (talk) 17:11, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

• Yes I echo concerns of IP. Fringe is generally for flat earthers, Astrologers and moon lending conspirers. It doesn’t apply for Dayananda Saraswati, he was not fringe but scholar. For an example, P.N. Oak was fringe historian and Misplaced Pages description has been given as it is. But it is not case for Dayananda because he was appreciated by most of scholars because of his Vedic scholarship and Advaita point of view. In an addition, no one who called him undue and fringe provided any consensus from WP:FRINGEN about this. To label someone as fringe, we need consensus on the noticeboards. Also, Dayananda’s views have been covered Criticism of Jesus, Muhammad, Christianity, Islam and every religion. Generally, Vivekananda, Dayananda, Mahatma Gandhi and Raja Ram Mohan Roy are notable and we give weightage to their ideas.

• So, was Dayananda Fringe?N
• Is there any consensus that he was fringe historian? N
• Are other articles give coverage To Dayananda’s views?Y
• Did Dayananda wrote offensive?Y but WP:NOTCENSORED.
• Should it be include by following same guidelines here? Y

• If someone is objecting his views here by calling it as fringe or undue then do following first.

  Find any Misplaced Pages consensus which call him as fringe. Consensus should be on India, Fringe or Hinduism related Noticeboards.

  Find mention of Dayananda in any of the category or list of pseudohistorians or fringe personality.

  Removing his criticism from Jesus, Muhammad or Islam related articles.

  Otherwise, IMHO, this is just WP:DE to include material and making Misplaced Pages as censored. If there is counter of his criticism from sect then we can add it but I doubt if one can counter scholar like him. — Harshil 14:59, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

All, I took some time to reflect on the topic at hand and some major issues that are on-going:

1. Conduct, specifically - WP:CIVILITY. The language used towards others and the comments are belittling (specifically @Krishna’s flute: on edit count) and offensive (the repetitive use of the word 'cult'). I have used the RPA template to eliminate such offensive language. Additionally, this topic has been on-going between a few editors, however, @Krishna’s flute: you did not engage with any of us and went straight to RFC, this could be perceived as WP:GAME. I should have not responded in the way I did as I reacted to the comments - I apologize for my reaction.

2. We should all review the WP:BRD-NOT in order to reach a consensus and close this discussion. To avoid the cycle of edits-reverts - I will past the text in question in my sandbox for us to discuss: https://en.wikipedia.org/User:Apollo1203/sandbox. @Harshil169: - I read into Undue/Fringe policies and you are correct on the approach to using such policies and would not validate the exclusion of the text “in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Misplaced Pages editors or the general public. If you can prove a theory that few or none currently believe, Misplaced Pages is not the place to present such a proof.” Additionally, we can look at WP:BALASPS: "the weight a Misplaced Pages article gives to criticism of its subject should be proportionate to the overall weight of such criticisms in reliable sources on the subject of the article.” I think we also need to prove the significance of Satyarth Prakash (WP:PROVEIT). Just because the content exists on the criticism pages you have mentioned, it does not mean we ignore Misplaced Pages policies for this page. We should address the content on the other pages as well to uphold the policy. We need secondary sources to put Dayanand Saraswati's criticism in context, currently, it is a Primary Source (WP:PRIMARY). The material we are posting does not support the article as encyclopedic, it is just dumping libelous material (WWIN:INDISCRIMINATE). For example, Krin Narayan's book (Storytellers, Saints, and Scoundrels), she clearly states that Dayanand Saraswati has given a "unabashedly biased history of various sects within Hinduism" (141). Let us discuss this topic and find a resolution. Apollo1203 (talk) 16:40, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

@Apollo1203: Focus on arguments first and talk on content. I can see goal posts have been changed again and again. To declare fringe, scholarly consensus is required which is absent for Dayananda. Kiran Narain’s opinion is personal, not scholarly consensus. I already wrote find consensus. Satyarth Prakash is reliable source and have been used in multiple Misplaced Pages articles as I pointed out. Some of them have gained status of good article even, so, your point of primary source fails here. Also, for articles related to Dayananda, his book is primary source, not for this sect. WP: PROVEIT is to verify content, not to test whether it is right or not. Original libellous content can’t be posted on Misplaced Pages but it can contain offensive material as per WP:NOTCENSORED. I’m pinging @Ms Sarah Welch, Kautilya3, and Nizil Shah: for their opinion on notability of Vedic scholar Dayananda and his book. — Harshil 17:03, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Also, the citation of policies have been repeatedly changed from WP:FRINGE to WP:PRIMARY to libellous. Point to be noted is satyarth prakash is biased and that is okay. @Apollo1203: I think you’re aware of Policy shoping, wiki lawyering and topic ban. This may be considered as behaviour of WP:TE and specially POV fighting. Take care about it!— Harshil 17:28, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Policies aside, I think the core question Apollo is trying to raise is whether incorporating all the statements gives them undue weight. Harshil, I assume good faith and will study the other pages closely that you referenced. Please be patient with me as we await the input of other editors. It's possible that these articles may also suffer from this issue in which case we are all obligated to improve them. While I agree Misplaced Pages is not censored, I also think we need to acknowledge, "Material that could be considered vulgar, obscene or offensive should not be included unless it is treated in an encyclopedic manner." (WP:GRATUITOUS) Looking at the text in question on Apollo's sandbox, I think it can be summarized better if we are to include it. Moksha88 (talk) 04:37, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Discussion

• Krishna's Flute: Do you have a proposed specific draft language? Criticism with context that aids the understanding of a subject/topic, is generally welcome. Criticism without context that merely aims to shock/demean/bash/vent/spread misinformation about a community/topic/subject isn't. For example, a draft along the lines of the following would aid the discussion and further collaboration: "The Swaminarayan tradition was criticized by Dayanand Saraswati – the founder of Arya Samaj who interpreted Hinduism to be a monotheistic religion, who was against all idols, who sought to return Hinduism to what he believed to be its rightful Vedic foundations. According to Dayanand Saraswati, the Swaminarayan tradition "....". According to (Indologist/community leader) , Dayanand Saraswati's views about Swaminarayan are because . etc etc Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 09:25, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

@Ms Sarah Welch:I think she has not. But we have one version in history which was proposed by me in above thread and currently lies in sandbox of Apollo1203. Kindly, share your opinion whether it fails encyclopaedic standard or not.-- Harshil 13:24, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

That is unencyclopedic and undue. It lacks the necessary context (i.e. Dayanand Saraswati – the founder of Arya Samaj who interpreted Hinduism to be a monotheistic religion, who was against all idols, who sought to return Hinduism to what he believed to be its rightful Vedic foundations. See C. Mackenzie Brown, E. Allen Richardson, Arvind Rajagopala, etc). Avoid quote farms. Please consider the template suggested above. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 19:00, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

• Redirect-Class India pages
• NA-importance India pages
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• Redirect-Class Gujarat pages
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• Redirect-Class Krishnaism pages
• NA-importance Krishnaism pages
• NA-Class Swaminarayan pages
• NA-importance Swaminarayan pages
• Redirect-Class organization pages
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• WikiProject Organizations articles
• Redirect-Class Religion pages
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• Redirect-Class New religious movements pages
• NA-importance New religious movements pages
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