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''(moved by ] from ] )''
:: (translation): {{user|Ned Scott}} and {{user|Wknight94}} (an administrator, no less) have been stalking me today. They've been showing up at my bio , my mom's bio , pages about my company's products , articles related to a podcast that I appeared on, an AfD that I started , a stub that I created several months ago , the ] article , and now here (at ]) too. None of the individual edits was particularly out of line, but as a pattern, they're pretty creepy, and this edit in particular was pretty ballsy: . My guess is that they're following me around because they're upset that I've pointed out their disruptive behavior at ]. But guys, seriously, Misplaced Pages is a big place, go play somewhere else, eh? --] 03:18, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


== ArbCom 2024 Elections voter message ==
:Stalking and looking at your past edits are two different things, as noted by ]: "''The term "wiki-stalking" has been coined to describe following a contributor around the wiki, editing the same articles as the target, with the intent of causing annoyance or distress to another contributor.''"


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:I was curious about you as an editor and as an individual, and looked at both your edit history as well as your web site. In the process of looking things up my habits as a Misplaced Pages editor stirred up, unrelated to our dispute. I was not doing any of this to annoy you, harass you, or cause distress. If anything I thought it would better help me understand you as an editor and would likely result in seeing you in a more positive light. There is nothing disruptive about this, and it's perfectly fine. Wikipedians (and most people on the internet) have a tendency to follow links and see where they will take them.
<div class="ivmbox-image noresize" style="padding-left:1px; padding-right:0.5em;">]</div>
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Hello! Voting in the ''']''' is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on {{#time:l, j F Y|{{Arbitration Committee candidate/data|2024|end}}-1 day}}. All ''']''' are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.


The ] is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the ]. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose ], ], editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The ] describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.
:I'm sorry, but it's a little absurd to think that people won't follow links in articles or your web site. You are the one who's chosen to identify with your real name and confirm your identity. On your website, don't you want people to look at links and see stuff you've done? Is it really that strange to you?


If you wish to participate in the 2024 election, please review ] and submit your choices on the ''']'''. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add {{tlx|NoACEMM}} to your user talk page. <small>] (]) 00:06, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</small>
:Considering these were all valid and rational edits, I don't see what there is to be upset about. I don't see anything mean-spirited or anything intended as harassment.


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:I'm also a bit bothered that you keep taking this outside of the dispute. I am human, so I will honestly say I am frustrated with you, but I do try my best to separate issues. I don't see why this dispute has to define ''all'' of our interactions on Misplaced Pages. There are a lot of users who I respect and collaborate with who I have had heated debates with in the past. -- ] 03:56, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
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== Voting is now open for the WikiProject Military History newcomer of the year and military historian of the year awards ==
:: Ned, your story changes so often, I find it hard to believe anything you say anymore. A couple days ago when I pointed out you were using profanity in edit summaries, you accused me of wikistalking and harassment.. At ], yesterday you accused me of personal attacks, while at the same time accusing me of being "immature, rude, and disrespectful." Today you're obviously spending time at pages that are related to me, but I don't buy the "just curious" story, considering that all your edits were negative and sniping types of edits, including flat out deleting one by redirecting it without any discussion or attempt at an AfD process . Then you try to defend your actions with a sweetness and light message about just being interested. Please also notice that there's a long list of editors posting to your talk page, pointing out that you have a civility problem. Perhaps you should think about taking a break from Misplaced Pages for awhile? Or, if you want me to believe the "curiosity" angle, how about making some ''positive'' edits to those articles you're so interested in? I'd be happy to give you references for anything you're curious about, and then you could add and fix things to your satisfaction, and we could work together constructively on something. --] 04:42, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
:::The verify tags, etc. were determined by me in about 20 minutes of reading pages which were no more than 2 links from your user page - so you needn't bother with the drama of stalking allegations, etc. Please read ] and ] before using such language. In particular from ]:
::::''This does not include checking up on an editor to fix errors or violations of Misplaced Pages policy, nor does it mean reading a user's contribution log; those logs are public for good reason.''
:::I'm curious how you view my activity any different than your admission to reading through my RFA for no discernible reason. Furthermore, it's interesting to read only to find so many articles related to you which similarly lack secondary sources. BTW, if ] were viewed as a precedent, some of these unverified or loosely verified articles might be worthy of ] - but I'll leave that up to someone else. —] (]) 05:02, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


Voting is now open for the ] ] and ] awards for 2024! The top editors will be awarded the coveted Gold Wiki. Cast your votes ] and ] respectively. Voting closes at 23:59 on 30 December 2024. On behalf of the coordinators, wishing you the very best for the festive season and the new year. MediaWiki message delivery via ] (]) 23:59, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
::::What.. story? I'm sorry, but I don't see where I've changed my mind on anything or changed any story, so I don't understand what that is supposed to mean. I made '''two''' edits to articles that are somewhat related to you, and then found myself having to defend two non-controversial minor edits.
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== Administrators' newsletter – December 2024 ==
::::One of those edits was a revert to an edit made by Jimbo Wales because the text violated a policy. How on Earth can you get made at me for that? Seriously?


] from the past month (November 2024).
::::The second edit I don't see as negative at all. ] , it's about a group that maintains ]. I redirected ] to ]. The article had no content except for a member list, which didn't seem important. The article had not grown in about a year's time, and the list seemed like trivial information. It's likely a valid search term so an AfD would have been inappropriate. The talk page had one edit, by you, back in June, and didn't seem to be active at all. This seemed like a minor, non-controversial redirect, that in the end will improve the over-all coverage of this group and website by centralizing their information on one article. Not only that, but this group is loosely related to you, and it wouldn't make '''any''' sense whatsoever for me to use that article to somehow attack or harass you.


]
::::That is not harassment, that is not stalking. However, you digging through my edit history in order to write me a direct message like the one you did, that is trolling behavior. There is a big difference there. I didn't write you a message or direct anything towards you. You were not a factor, at all, in those edits. You might have been a factor in me finding those articles, but that's about it.


] '''Administrator changes'''
::::Do I sound nicer in my messages? Seems an odd thing to get mad at me about. I am going out of my way with my words right now, because you'll yell at me if I say anything ''slightly'' or anywhere near what ''might'' be considered uncivil. Maybe I was watching my wording too much and came off a bit phony. If so, I'm sorry, but you're over reacting here, and I'm really getting tired of defending myself from absurd accusations. -- ] 06:20, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
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== Mediation request ==
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] '''Guideline and policy news'''
{{RFM-Request|Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (television)|Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television)}} —] <small>(] • ])</small> 03:15, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
* Following ], the ] has been updated. All former administrators may now only regain the tools following a request at the ] within 5 years of their most recent admin action. Previously this applied only to administrators deysopped for inactivity.
* Following a ], a new speedy deletion criterion, ], has been enacted. This applies to template subpages that are no longer used.


] '''Technical news'''
:Incidentally, Elonka, ] says that only the originator should edit the "issues to mediate" section; if you want to restate the issue of WikiProject jurisdiction, please do so in the "Additional issues to mediate" section. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 03:28, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
* Technical volunteers can now register for the ], which will take place in Istanbul, Turkey. is open from November 12 to December 10, 2024.


] '''Arbitration'''
::If I understand the guide correctly, the correct course of action would be for you to move the question from the "Issues to mediate" section to "Additional issues to mediate". I'm loath to edit the latter section myself, since the page says "the initiating party should not edit the "Additional issues to mediate" section under any circumstances". Perhaps I'll ask Essjay or another MedCom member what the correct course of action is. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 03:35, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
* The arbitration case '']'' (formerly titled '']'') has been closed.
* An arbitration case titled '']'' has been opened. Evidence submissions in this case will close on 14 December.


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:::I appreciate your concern — however, I think that what's important here is that we get the mediation started, rather than worrying about how the questions are framed. I don't really see a substantial difference of ''content'' between the questions "If a wide discussion of Wikipedians opposes a guideline developed by a WikiProject, which takes precedence?" and "Should WikiProjects be allowed to set reasonable guidelines for the articles within their sphere of influence, even if those guidelines are not in strict adherence to Misplaced Pages-wide guidelines?"; the ''issue'' being discussed is the same. I hope an member of the Mediation Committee can sort out the mess at the request page — I'd rather not muddy the waters further myself. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 04:44, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
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::::Elonka, with , I trust you found ''everyone'' with multiple posts in the discussion? —] (]) 04:53, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
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:::::Ok, good. Because I found {{user|Chuq}} who had over two ''dozen'' edits to the discussion and yet was left out. —] (]) 04:58, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
* ]
::::::Actually, it wasn't Josiah Rowe I was curious about. It was your edit declaring "multiple posts" as a criteria that piqued my interest. Finding someone with over 25 posts still missing after that was peculiar to me. —] (]) 05:04, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
* ]
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== ] of ] ==
]


The article ] has been ]&#32;because of the following concern:
Elonka, is there any particular reason you haven't signed the RfM yet? You've edited the RfM page, but not signed your agreement. Surely your disagreement over the question framing isn't sufficient for you to want to sabotage the mediation? —] <small>(] • ])</small> 06:06, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
<blockquote>'''I see no evidence of notability per NCORP.'''</blockquote>


While all constructive contributions to Misplaced Pages are appreciated, pages may be ].
: Whee, it's been a whole, what, three hours since it was proposed, and you're already accusing me of sabotage? Breathe, man, breathe. :) --] 06:09, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{Tlc|proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your ] or on ].
:: Sorry — I didn't mean to ''accuse'' you of anything, and "sabotage" was an infelicitous word choice. I just thought it was odd that you would edit the page but not indicate whether you agree to the mediation. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 06:53, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{Tlc|proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the ], but other ]es exist. In particular, the ] process can result in deletion without discussion, and ] allows discussion to reach ] for deletion.<!-- Template:Proposed deletion notify --> ] (]) 22:54, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
Elonka, I'm concerned that you have now edited ] several times but have not agreed to mediation. I fear that this may jeopardize the case's chances of being accepted. I think that if you have concerns about the RfM, it would be best to discuss them at ] instead of editing the page any more. I also hope that you will agree to the mediation process. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 18:25, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
:: ]. --] 23:01, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


== CIR issue with editor you warned once for lack of sources ==


See https://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/Proudbharati huge number of terrible changes, done in haste. ] ] 11:29, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
== Lost episode sources ==


:Ignore, I CIR blocked. ] ] 12:52, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
A question which mixes two of your recent issues, mall articles without secondary sources and Lost episode articles: Why do you find it acceptable that few (if any) Lost episodes have primary sources, let alone secondary sources, while, at the same time, it is so objectionable that malls do not have secondary sources, that you've brought several of them to ]? —] (]) 13:58, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
:Do you agree that the Lost episode articles need {{tl|unreferenced}} tags on them at the very least? —] (]) 02:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
::To my knowledge, no, it would not be proper to add {{tl|unref}} to the many thousands of television episode articles around Misplaced Pages, since by their very nature, the episode effectively ''is'' a reference. I think this has been discussed at the talk page of ], you might want to check there and toss in a question if it's a concern, or maybe at ]. --] 19:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
:::I'll think about that since there are still no secondary references. Given that, you may want to reconsider your stance against mall articles which suffer from the same problem. —] (]) 21:35, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
:::: Just to make sure I'm clear on this, are you saying that because you disagree with whether or not I add a {{tl|primarysources}} tag to an article on a shopping mall, that you are considering adding {{tl|unref}} tags to every television episode article on Misplaced Pages, to make some kind of ]? --] 21:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
:::::I am saying the two situations are almost identical. Your adding {{tl|primarysources}} to a zillion harmless mall articles - but not to the zillion harmless episode articles - gives the appearance that you ''are'' trying to make a ] (i.e., you have gone beyond the "consideration" phase). Unless you see some contrast that I'm not seeing, it seems you should be adding the tag to both mall articles ''and'' episode articles - or you should be adding to neither. —] (]) 22:32, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
::::::Very sorry if this is inappropriate for me to jump in and comment on what you guys were talking about, but I have a question about the subject matter. Does Misplaced Pages consider primary and secondary sources to be equally essential? I have no idea. If so, then I sort of see wknight's point (except that I don't think that any of us are really obligated to police everything that we possibly could because of time and interest constraints, and that we shouldn't judge each other for how we choose to focus our efforts, as long as our edits themselves don't violate wikirules). If not, then aren't they totally separate things? ] 22:44, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


== Administrators' newsletter – January 2025 ==


] from the past month (December 2024).
== Clarification of Your Concerns ==


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Hello again, Elonka. I hope you had an enjoyable holiday last week.
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] '''Administrator changes'''
I wanted to check with you to make sure that I understand your exact concerns regarding TV:NC so that I do not misrepresent you. This is my understanding of your position:
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# ''As a general rule'', episode articles should not be disambiguated unless necessary.
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# As with any other guideline on Misplaced Pages, if there is consensus among editors of a particular series (like Lost or Star Trek) that the series qualifies as an exceptional case, then it is appropriate to maintain different naming conventions for that series.
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# The TV:NC guideline page should include a statement acknowledging item #2.
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If I am correct, then I think we are much closer to a consensus than people think, because I think there is already a consensus on the first two points. In this case, I intend to make a much bigger stink because I think there are a lot of people who are misunderstanding the issue.
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I wanted to check with you, though, because I want to make sure I've got it right. If, for example, you actually ''disagree'' with the general guideline, but you are "settling" for the statement about exceptions as a means of compromise, then I want to make sure that your actual concerns are addressed.
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So, to sum up, do the three statements above accurately and completely represent your position on the issue? Thanks again. --] &#8249;&#8201;<big>]|]</big>&#8201;&#8250; 23:43, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
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:Thank you, Elonka; that ''does'' help quite a bit. How about this for #2: "If there is a consensus among editors of a particular series (like Lost or Star Trek) that the series should follow a different naming convention, then it is appropriate to maintain a different naming convention for that series." Does that more accurately portray your position? --] &#8249;&#8201;<big>]|]</big>&#8201;&#8250; 00:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
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::Thanks again, Elonka! --] &#8249;&#8201;<big>]|]</big>&#8201;&#8250; 00:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
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] '''Guideline and policy news'''
* Following ], ] was adopted as a ].
* A ] is open to discuss whether admins should be advised to warn users rather than issue no-warning blocks to those who have posted promotional content outside of article space.
] '''Technical news'''
* The Nuke feature also now ] to the userpage of the user whose pages were deleted, and to the pages which were not selected for deletion, after page deletions are queued. This enables easier follow-up admin-actions.


] '''Arbitration'''
== Spellchecking ==
* Following the ], the following editors have been elected to the Arbitration Committee: {{noping|CaptainEek}}, {{noping|Daniel}}, {{noping|Elli}}, {{noping|KrakatoaKatie}}, {{noping|Liz}}, {{noping|Primefac}}, {{noping|ScottishFinnishRadish}}, {{noping|Theleekycauldron}}, {{noping|Worm That Turned}}.


] '''Miscellaneous'''
Just dropping by to say thank you for the copyediting of my spelling errors on various mediation pages; one drawback of being a very rapid typist (about 90wpm) is that my accuracy is shot. Thanks a bunch for checking up on me! <span style="font-family: Verdana">] ]</span> 03:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
* A ] is happening in January 2025 to reduce the number of unreviewed articles and redirects in the ]. ]
:]. '''<span style="background:#000">] ]</span>''' 19:01, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
:: Ah, keep in mind that there's a difference between editing people's comments, and editing a guideline page. If I see a spelling error in someone's personal comment on a Talk/Discussion page, then I shouldn't change it. But if it's on a policy/guideline page, it's fair game for fixing. --] 19:38, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


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== The Westfield Groupo ==
{{center|{{flatlist|

* ]
Hi. Let's assume for the moment that ] ''is'' a notable company - at least it would appear as ] - I would like to get the main ] article looking more like a ] ] class article.
* ]
Do you agree, that in doing this, an important step would be to move the list of locations to ] by nation? I have dropped a proposal on ] but no comments there yet.]]] 04:53, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
* ]

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== Threatening with blocks ==
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] Please do not when you have not been authorized to do so. Thank you. —] (]) 12:24, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
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::It is possible that I missed your interpretation of Elonka's statement, but I don't believe she actually "threatened" anyone with being blocked. Maybe it is time to take a deep breath and view this in a new light. Thanks for seeing another POV!
::] 13:30, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
:::I appreciate your POV and input but five different admins have been involved in that discussion. None of them have mentioned the possibility of blocks and no one else anywhere has mentioned the possibility of blocks to my knowledge (if I have missed a communication somewhere, let me know). If administrators are not mentioning blocks and no one else is either, it is certainly beyond Elonka's authority to mention blocks. Furthermore, even longstanding administrators like {{user|Radiant!}} are performing these page moves and her "danger of being blocked" edit could be seen as being directed at all of them. It's inappropriate for a biased individual to use such language with no backing and only against people which do not agree with their bias. —] (]) 14:14, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

:::: Wknight94, I did not threaten anyone with a block, and it is obvious that I do not have the authority to make any blocks. I pointed out that continuing with controversial page moves could ''lead'' to a block, as was indicated by the ArbCom proceeding which Thatcher linked. Therefore, it is not a good idea to encourage people to proceed with page moves against consensus. Please stop throwing warning templates at my page every time you disagree with something I do, and please stop stalking my contribs. I've been trying very hard to be patient, and have been bending over backwards to ], but if you continue with this behavior, I will have no choice but to pursue further action against you. Knock it off. --] 16:41, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::That doesn't help your case at all. First how is anyone to supposed to know your "danger of being blocked" statement is referring to the ArbComm that Thatcher mentioned? Second, there were no blocks resulting from that ArbComm until ''after'' people ignored it and continued edit warring - so that analogy is completely flawed. Third, don't bother trying to claim ''you'' have consensus for not doing page moves. At best, there was ''no consensus'' to modify the TV-NC guideline so it would remain the same. Since moving those pages is in line with the existing guideline, it cannot possibly be considered "against consensus" - let alone be called a blockable action. Even if you had gotten full consensus for the exception verbiage, it was still just for exceptions - so the pages that were not tied to exceptions (i.e. most of them) would still be movable - and certainly not blockable. Fourth, my warning was not a template - it was handwritten. Fifth, I have that RFM on my watchlist (of course) so I'm not "stalking your contribs". Even if I were watching your contribs, I'd be perfectly within my rights per ].

:::::Bottom line, even if your block mention was not a threat, it sounded like one. Worse yet, there is no substance behind the statement so it sounds like an empty threat. You should know better. —] (]) 17:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::: It is standard Misplaced Pages policy per ], that controversial page moves should not be carried out unless there is consensus for the moves. The ] is clearly listed as disputed, and there is ''much'' controversy on its talk page, to the point where there's even a note at the top of the talk page cautioning people that it's in "rapid archive" mode, plus a clear notice about an in-process mediation. To say that further moves would be non-controversial, is absurd. --] 17:56, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::::Page moves involving pages under some sort of exception guideline? I would agree (but even then it would be cause to undo the move, not block someone). But that little tag does not mean "no television-related articles in the entire system can be moved". No admin in their right mind would block anyone that moved a television-related article now and I think you know that. Saying otherwise is irresponsible, esp. among so many that have not been here nearly as long as you. You should be setting an example not making threatening-sounding statements that are patently false. —] (]) 18:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::::: Wknight94, your behavior is in clear violation of the policy against ]. You have been following me around Misplaced Pages, nitpicking my edits, and acting in an uncivil manner. Stop it. --] 18:26, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

== Tagging for wikify ==

Hi

I know you're an experienced Wikipedian and do loads of great stuff, including tagging articles without categories, etc. I notice you often add the "wikify" tag too. Often these articles don't need wikifying, especially when they are stubs (recent examples include ] or ] to pick two early ones from the list you tagged today.

If you tag them for wikfication they will be added to the wikify backlog, and someone from ] will have to come & remove the tag again. Even if someone has edited the article to add a category, which appears to be your main suggestion, they often leave the wikify tag. I guess I am requesting that, in order not to waste others' time, you make your tagging a bit more specific, and only add a wikify tag when you feel it's really necessary.

I'd love to hear your views on this. ] 22:28, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

:Thanks for your explanation, which helps me understand the reason. Looking more closely at ], where the only real wikifying problem was the lack of bolded title, I see the title was fixed by ] when they categorised it in response to your tag, but unfortunately they didn't remove the wikify tag. The meaning of the wikify tag is a bit woolly, perhaps leading to a reluctance to remove it, in case others feel it was removed prematurely. Anyway, it's good to exchange views & get an insight into others' work. Thanks, ] 11:40, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

==Civility question==
Dear Elonka, I always respected you for your fine-tuned sense of detecting incivility. May I ask you for an opinion on the matters raised at ]? Was I offended, or am I overreacting?--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 22:33, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
: FYI, I have replied to you in private email. --] 22:56, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
:: Thank you. FYI, your name has been mentioned at ]. You may want to reply there.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 01:03, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

==Smiley Award==

Feel free to place this award on your user page, as a token of appreciation for your contributions. If you're willing to help spread the good cheer to others, please see the project page for the Random Smiley Award at: ]

{{User:Pedia-I/SmileyAward5b}}

== Straw polls ==

Dear Elonka,

I'd be happy to take a look at the situation you are referring to and offer some input. You should realize (and probably have realized if you read some of the arbitration discussions), however, that I had some intense disagreements with other editors on particulary the subject of removing other peoples' talk posts. Therefore, I am not a suitable person to ask if you are looking for a neutral "mediator". If you want input (or support, since you apparently have the same dispute with one of those editors), give a link where I can find the discussion. --] 21:15, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
:Dear Elonka, I have been reading through some of the links you supplied, but the situation is indeed very complex. One thing I do not fully understand is why you have not agreed to official mediation in this dispute. That is part of the normal dispute resolving process, and at least that way the whole dispute is looked upon by someone neutral. --] 11:30, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
:: Ah, I've agreed on the talk page of the mediation. The mediation page itself has been protected, since about 18 hours after it was created. --] 23:21, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

== How to avoid contrib stalking ==

I have ] watchlisted, so I saw your comments there and responded. Just today, I decided to check your contribs to see if you had taken similar action on other pages. As it turned out, ]. I am not in the habit of checking your contribs and I will not make it habit out of courtesy to you. However, I find your actions at ] and ] to be incredibly unhelpful to the debate at ], as none of us would be expected to find your posts those pages and be able to provide an opposing point of view. I repeat that I have no intention of stalking your contribs, but this pattern of posting related discussions on unrelated pages is practically an invitation for people to do just that.

I'm not saying that you don't have the right to bring up valid arguments on other pages, but I ask that you post a note at ] when it could impact the debate there. It would go a long way toward building good will and trust. <span style="color: #F06A0F">&ndash;</span><small><span style="border: 1px solid #F06A0F">]]</span></small> 04:11, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

:Again, I invite you to pick a representative article and put it up for RM. If the consensus is decided in your favor, I will support a moratorium on the page moves. Also, those moves have been documented at ], so your analogy is flawed. <span style="color: #F06A0F">&ndash;</span><small><span style="border: 1px solid #F06A0F">]]</span></small> 04:32, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

::] is not a guideline or policy. It is the recommended mechanism for determining consensus support for a move, which is all that is required. There's plenty of evidence that consensus support has been reached (chiefly the Lost RM), though I am fully aware that you disagree. It's ridiculous to demand that every one of these articles should be put up for RM, since the issues involved are essentially the same for all of them. Even a multi-RM would be infeasible, since it is practically impossible to find all the pages beforehand. Regardless, we have strayed far away from my original request, into areas that involve more than just you or me. If you have further comments you'd like to make, I suggest you bring them up on ]. <span style="color: #F06A0F">&ndash;</span><small><span style="border: 1px solid #F06A0F">]]</span></small> 04:56, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

==Your latest spree==

I'm fed up with this, Elonka. I disappear for a week and you embark on yet another spree of deletion attempts, although thankfully this time other people shut you down and told you to get consensus first. You're routinely abusing the speedy deletion criteria to try and get things deleted before anyone else can have oversight, and abusing the prod system to try and slip things through which you know have no consensus support. You were pushing it with the routine arbitrary attempts at AfDing articles without any attempt to determine if they were notable or not on your own (and which, in several cases, you later admitted you didn't want deleted after all). None of this is helping work out what to do with shopping centres - you're simply trying to wear down anyone who disagrees with you.

You've simply crossed the line, however, with the notability tags on ] and ] - two of the largest corporations in Australia (and in the latter case, globally), as you either well know or could have found out in ten seconds either by reading the articles or doing the slightest, most basic attempt at research via Google. I'm pretty tempted just to take this to arbitration now, citing this as evidence of your repeated violations of ], but I'm holding off for the moment on the basis that you seem to have stopped when all your last batch of AfDs were speedy closed and actually started participating in some sort of attempt to reach consensus. That said, I'm fed up with having to constantly keep an eye out for these sorts of stunts - if this sort of disruption is resumed in the future, an arbitration request will be forthcoming. ] 04:54, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

== Polling ==

I was told off-wiki that your latest angle in the TV dispute boils down to prosecuting people who oppose polls. Before you take that line of thought any further, let me remind you who it was that that poll against you. (]) 10:16, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
: Huh? "Prosecuting people who oppose polls"? --] 10:18, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
::I have no particular desire to get involved in this so I'll take your word for it that this rumor is unfounded. I hope the mediation will prove productive; I get the impression that some people believe you to be acting disingeniously. (]) 13:51, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

== Your family tree as a reference ==

As I'm sure you're aware, {{user|Jimbo Wales}} almost all of the content of one of your articles because your family tree web site is not a ]. I have found all of the articles below suffering from the same problem. Could you please determine which facts in those articles are sourced from your ] and either remove the facts or find more reliable sources for them? Please do the same for any other articles which use your web site as a source. If the ] gap is serious enough that ] himself made an edit to address it, surely you agree that it needs to be rectified. Thank you.
*]
*]
*]
*]
*]
*]
*]
*]
—] (]) 20:43, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

== ] ==
Hi. Can you do me and wikipedia a big favour and give ] a quick copyedit (sentences structures, unclear info, etc). I'm personally happy with it, but as it's up for FA, it has to satisfiy a broad range of editorally tastes. I trust you have no background in the topic, so will be able offer good neutral edits. Best regards, '''] ('']'')''' 13:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

== 3RR warning ==

Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly{{{{{subst|}}}#if:Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (television)|, as you are doing in ]}}. If you continue, you may be ] from editing Misplaced Pages. Rather than reverting, discuss disputed changes on the talk page. The revision you want is not going to be implemented by edit warring. Thank you.<!-- Template:3RR --> —] (]) 01:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

== Re: ==

I suggest to re-sumbit a medcabal case. ]]Zach| ] 03:17, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

:Tell them the link, and let's restart. ]]Zach| ] 11:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

== Re. Thank you ==

You're welcome. Keep up the good work. Regards,--<strong><font style="color: #082567">]</font>]<font style="color: #082567">]</font></strong> 03:30, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

== Re: NPA claim against Josiah Rowe ==

Elonka, If I may delurk and jump in for a moment in ]. I've been on the sidelines with the current and rather overly-contentious debate going on at ]. That Josiah has been as even-keeled and balanced in his responses there is a testament to his fair-mindedness and fortitude. While his reply to Matthew may seem to tiptoe into the zone of incivility, it was far from a ], but an expression of disbelief. Matthew is an enthusiastic editor, but at times casually discourteous -- his flippant remark to Wknight of "what case?" was one such time (and itself ''might'' be interpreted as an uncivil comment). I sometimes wonder, however, if you read the actual policy you cite, or derive your own interpretation. WP:NPA states,
:''...it is equally important not to interpret impersonal comments as personal attacks. Examples of comments that are not personal attacks include:''
:*''Disagreements about content such as "Your statement about X is wrong" or "Your statement is a point of view, not fact" are not personal attacks.''

The essay page you point Josiah to, ], states that it is intended to "declare publicly what you appreciate about other members of the community or their contributions"; specifically, "Saying nice things about other contributors, especially those with whom you are currently having problems." I don't see anything that you've written in appreciation of Josiah there. Directing him to "review policies, take a step back, take a deep breath, and perhaps have a cup of ]", after rapping him on the knuckles for a supposed personal attacks is, IMHO, a decidedly condescending and non-positive suggestion.

It seems to me that you have on various occasions claimed personal attacks and incivility in dealing with others on Misplaced Pages when none exists; such "fingerpointing" itself tends to raise the level of frustrations and stress. It may be an oversensitivity of refined sensibilities on your part. Perhaps, you might consider that some of the issues being raised on the WP pages/sections you frequent may actually be derived from the way you respond and interact with others who might disagree with you. Sometimes it's better to leave a matter alone-- even when you think you're in the right-- then to continue to nitpick to demonstrate your right-ness.

I note that you hope eventually to be a WP administrator. Chiding current admins in good standing about what you see as their failings is likely not the path to seeing your goals accomplished. Please take my comments as they were intended, in the spirit of helpfulness, as you are certainly an exceptionally knowledgeable and productive editor, who just sometimes seems to get caught up in ] (a habit we all occasionally fall into).--<font size="-2"><strong>]<sup>]</sup></strong></font> 03:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
: Leflyman, your words sound quite pleasant, but considering that you have been nominating my articles for deletion, and frequently engaging in uncivil commentary yourself, it's very difficult to take them to heart. Also, considering the quantity of profanity and name-calling that has been generated by others in the debate (including admins), it appears a bit one-sided that you'd take the time to try to "correct" my behavior (which has been unfailingly civil), and not say anything to anyone else. If you were distributing cautions more evenly (and not attacking my articles), it would be easier to take your words as being said in good faith. --] 03:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
::*Elonka, I think you've made my case for me. You seem to be unfailing in one thing: fingerpointing-- to a degree I've not seen from the "others in the debate." You've simply over-shot the mark this time in admonishing Josiah, one of the most patient and even-keeled editors I've had the pleasure to deal with in my years on Misplaced Pages. He's gained the respect of numerous editors and admins for his balanced temperament during contentious debates. (He even handled a recent emailed ] with aplomb.) One can certainly learn from his example. Oh, and, "nominating my articles", "attacking my articles"? Perhaps you might consider a review of ].--<font size="-2"><strong>]<sup>]</sup></strong></font> 04:56, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
::Josiah has been just as civil as you have. He's shown an inhuman amount of patience in this debate which has earned him my respect and the ]. I, myself, have tried as much as possible to refrain from personal attacks, incivility, or name-calling. I have not participated in any kind of edit-warring and I try not to "pile it on" when others criticize your positions. So you'll understand that I take offense to your repeated vague accounts of personal attacks without naming who made them. It seems you're trying to paint anyone who disagrees with you with a broad brush to discredit us. <span style="color: #F06A0F">&ndash;</span><small><span style="border: 1px solid #F06A0F">]]</span></small> 04:13, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Whoa, wait a second there. I will agree that both you and Josiah have been more patient and cool headed about this than I have, but .. what gives with that comment? Don't mistake me for Izzy Dot, and don't be pulled into Elonka's misrepresentation of other people's civility. -- ] 06:02, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
::::My apologies. It was inappropriate for me to drag your or anyone else's name into it. I mean only to say that none of us should be held responsible for actions of others. Elonka's trying to use a history of ''other people'' being incivil as a indictment against Josiah, which makes no sense. <span style="color: #F06A0F">&ndash;</span><small><span style="border: 1px solid #F06A0F">]]</span></small> 08:36, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::No, it's ok, I see now what you meant to say, and I take no offense to it. -- ] 09:13, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I have supplied diffs of attacks ''many'' times, but to repeat: "stalling", "immature delay tactics", "bad faith" , and the "whining" of "sore losers" "borderline trolling" being generally "disruptive" . Other editors' opinions referred to as "dumb ideas" whose "messages are BS" ]. My reminders about civility on Ned's talkpage were deleted with uncivil edit summaries such as accusations of "trolling" . Further, having my edits repeatedly deleted off the page is pretty damn uncivil. Plus the steady stream of ] by Wknight94, who's been steadily nitpicking my edits and ] , showing up at pages all over my watchlist, throwing warnings at my page if I so much as breathe wrong, and now starting a new campaign against several bios in my family tree. Plus of course there are the attacks at the Village pump, like saying that one of my posts was "distorting reality to gain sympathy" , or at the talk page of ], where personally-directed comments include, "screaming for a new poll" , and "intellectually dishonest" . None of which I have responded to in kind, and yet certain editors are continuing to jump up and down and complain that I'm the bad guy. Personally, I think I've been showing the patience of a saint. How do you think you would behave, if you were treated to such a steady barrage? Me, I'm handling it by distributing civility and NPA warnings on the spot. Don't want the warnings? Don't be uncivil or issue personal attacks, it's really simple. --] 05:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I note that not ''one'' of those diffs is an edit of mine. It is true that the comment to Matthew which provoked your comment reflected a certain frustration, but it was also exactly what it claimed to be: honest bafflement. As for my own conduct, I thank the editors who have spoken in my defence — they have presented my case much more eloquently and dispassionately than I could have. It is greatly appreciated. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 19:02, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

:Your ''one'' diff of mine asserts my opinion that it is intellectually dishonest to create support for a position where none previously existed. That is to say, had you gotten your language inserted into ], it would be intellectually dishonest to claim that ] supported you, because it's really just you supporting yourself. I stand by that statement, I maintain it is not a personal attack, and I ask you not to repeat the claim again. Please review ], which says ''explicitly'' that statements about the ''actions'' of a user, rather than the user him/her/itself, are inherently ''not'' personal attacks. Most of the diffs you cite suffer from a similar problem.

:You supply diffs as well wherein Ned and Wknight claim that you are being disruptive, presumably because you believe this constitutes a personal attack. I'd like to draw your attention to a recent claim you made against Ned, using very similar language to describe ''him'' as being disruptive.

:Once again, I do not deny that some people have resorted to inappropriate language and an incivil tone. However, I object strongly to the implication that anyone who disagrees with you is guilty by association. I remind you that ''none'' of your diffs are from Josiah. That other users have used inappropriate language is no reason to admonish Josiah, who has proven himself time and again as a responsible and respectable editor. <span style="color: #F06A0F">&ndash;</span><small><span style="border: 1px solid #F06A0F">]]</span></small> 05:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

::How many times do you plan on making allegations of harassment without actually presenting the applicable parts of ] that you feel I'm not complying with? Here, I'll give you an example:
:::; User space harassment

::::Placing numerous false or questionable 'warnings' on a user's talk page, restoring such comments after a user has removed them, placing 'suspected sockpuppet' and similar tags on the user page of active contributors, and otherwise trying to display material the user may find annoying or embarrassing in their user space is a common form of harassment.
::::A user page is for the person to provide some general information about themself and a user talk page is to facilitate communication. ''Neither'' is intended as a 'wall of shame' and should not be used to display supposed problems with the user unless the account has been blocked as a result of those issues. Any sort of content which truly ''needs'' to be displayed, or removed, should be immediately brought to the attention of admins rather than edit warring to enforce your views on the content of someone else's user space.
::That is the part of the policy that I'll be posting at ] or worse if the unsupported claims persist - against me for harassment or against others for your other unsubstantiated claims (Josiah uncivil?! Really?!!). You say far too much and make far too many sweeping declarations and accusations without any evidence to back you up.

::As far as your family bios, you've already been at your own ] for writing bios on your own relatives and, worse, using your own original research for references. Jimbo took time out of his day to specifically state that your original research is not an appropriate reference. {{user|Danny}} has also brought up concerns over your conflict of interest. And yet, in over a month, nothing has been done to fix that - the references remain. I'm being overly generous in asking ''you'' to make the edits yourself to bring those in compliance with the ''policy'' ]. By rights, they could all be chopped down to stubs just the way Jimbo did. In fact, some would probably scold me for not doing it myself. —] (]) 05:54, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
<div style="float:center;border-style:solid;border-color:blue;background-color:AliceBlue;border-width:1px;text-align:left;padding:8px;" class="plainlinks">]

Matthew has smiled at you! Smiles promote ] and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling to someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Smile to others by adding {{tls|smile}}, {{tls|smile2}} or {{tls|smile3}} to their talk page with a friendly message. Happy editing! {{{2|}}}
</div><!-- Template:smile2 -->
:Elonka, they are trying to get you down.. just keep calm (like you always do) and they'll get bored. <small><font face="Tahoma">'''thanks'''/] ] ]</font></small> 08:23, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
::Good lord, Elonka. Sorry you are having to deal with all this hatefulness and unreasonableness. I have been sick all weekend and am trying to catch up with the discussion. hang in there, just stay cool and don't let them get to you. Here is my moral support to you, I will comment where I can, but I only count maybe three or four total people who seem even slightly interested in being constructive, and I have little-to-no patience with the positional stance that many of the 'others' are taking (which seems to boil down to: "This is the way it is, I will hear no discussion and acknowledge no conflict" and "everything that everyone on the other side says is not valid in any way at all because I say so"). This is why it took so long for me to even start editing Lost pages - because of the editors who were so aggressive, harsh/rude, and authoritarian in their actions - it really turns people off and is unwelcoming. sorry, just venting. . . So (catching up), what is going on with the mediation attempt that Josiah had put forth? It looks like people are still adding/removing their names there, but then I heard talk of a new mediation attempt - do you know what is up? ] 14:41, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Riverbend, I again invite you to take a look at the talk page archives at ]. The only reason people are "putting their foot down" now is because we ''did'' give the discussion a fair chance, and we did originally listen to all the concerns. It's just that the outcome wasn't what Elonka wanted, and now she's been repeating things for the last few weeks. No new arguments have been made since the start of the debate. -- ] 20:40, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
::::I see your perspective, and have read the entirety of all archives on this discussion at least twice, most discussions more than ten times each. Please don't assume ignorance just because I have a different take on the matter than you. I do not believe that the harshness, rudeness, and aggression are warranted no matter how long a discussion goes on - I think that people should control their tempers better and treat each other with more respect. Regardless of whether anyone has violated any particular civility rule, the tone of this (entire extended) discussion has been awful in many parts. I also have observed that most people in this discussion are in a positional stance, and have been for a VERY long time - multiple people tried to move things in a constructive direction or develop workable solutions since I have been here (not that long), and they have been basically dismissed or ignored or overwhelmed by the rapid-fire positional, negative, and unconstructive comments. I consider this to be unreasonable. So, I am making these observations and giving moral support to Elonka (on her own talk page). I certainly invite you to my talk page if you want to talk to me about this further. ] 15:33, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

== ] ==
Thanks for reminding to categorise. This revealed several Christian Brothers Colleges with 'weird' categorisation i.e repetitive, rundundant ] 10:13, 5 December 2006 (UTC) ] 10:15, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

== ] ==
I appreciate your advice and the useful header on the new ] article contributed by ]. I cordially invite you to look at the other student projects, listed on my user page. Many thanks. ] 15:51, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

== I have seen ==

Let me review it quickly to see if a block is needed, if so, I will get one. ]]Zach| ] 02:02, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

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