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{{Spoken article requested|]|One of the most important figures and pop culture icons in the history of science and the world. The man named "Person of the Century" deserves a Spoken article."}}
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== High school drop out ==
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How the hell did he drop out of high school, if he went to college? {{unsigned|69.113.131.124}}


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:You have to remember that this is in the pre-SAT days and not finishing high school wouldn't necessarily bar you from admission to college (especially if you had a good reason for not finishing, as Einstein did). {{unsigned|24.147.86.187}}
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::Being in ''pre-SAT'' days does not really have anything to do with it, since the rules for admission to University in ''Switzerland'' haven't changed much since then. While Einstein dropped out of high school in Germany, he went back and finished high school in Switzerland, thus making sure he would be allowed to go to University (see the article). ] 06:48, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
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Yeah but maybe it was because he was smart that he didn't have to
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== Geeman's comments on "Jewish" ==
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{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|class=GA|vital=yes|listas=Einstein, Albert|blp=no|1=
I've just reread Geeman's comments in the archive about wanting to put the words "Jewish" into the opening paragraph on Einstein. On balance I think this is a good idea for clarity and I support it. A good way of overcoming all the objections against it is to see the phrasing for a similar case in the article on ] where it says that Lefschetz was "born in Moscow into a Jewish family (his parents were Turkish citizens) who moved shortly after that to Paris." Isn't that so simple? This phrasing is particularly clever because the phrase "Jewish family" gets out of all the problems of religious and nationalistic labels (which I agree we should avoid in the case of Einstein's "Jewishness"). Therefore I support a similar phrasing in the opening paragraph of Einstein. If there are no objections, I'll go ahead and make this correction in 5 days time so you guys have time to sleep on it. ] 22:16, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
{{WikiProject Biography|s&a-work-group=yes|s&a-priority=Top |core=yes }}
:It already says he was born to a Jewish family in the first sentence after the intro. Personally I don't think his "Jewishness" or "Germanness" are important enough to put in the intro, but we include the nationality for the sake of convention. I would support fewer labels in the intro (removing "German-born", but not adding more. ] 23:08, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
{{WikiProject Germany|importance=Top}}

{{WikiProject Switzerland|importance=High}}
Yes, it is in the intro...but not in the top lead paragraph....which is what I think Geeman was refering to. Geeman can you comment? I support the inclusion of these labels. Such labels are there for every other biography on the wikipedia...just because Einstein's case is a little more complicated than average doesn't mean we should shirk from the challenge of finding a succinct way of putting it across. We can collaborate to find the optimal wording. ] 06:48, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
{{WikiProject History of Science|importance=Top}}
:“Such labels are there for every other biography on the wikipedia.” Really? How about ], ], ], ], ], and ]. None of them is labeled as “Jewish” in the lead paragraph. I think the lead paragraph of a biography (and the other paragraphs above the Contents) should summarize what is most notable about the subject. I would, however, support mentioning his Jewishness in the Nationality field of the Infobox. --] 06:18, 27 November 2006 (UTC) As for the ] biography, that article does not yet have multiple sections; so it does not yet have a summary header. --] 06:29, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
{{WikiProject Jewish history|importance=High}}
::I'm happy to comment, ]. Thanks for the invitation... :) First off, let's establish a few things. There is a convention in the bios of WP to state the person's national origin, background and affiliations in the first sentence. That's useful because it gives us a quick reference to the personality and cultural heritage of the person. In most cases nation of origin is not really pertinent to the person him/herself with certain obvious exceptions like politicians, rulers or soldiers. It's just a nice way for us to get a quick handle on the person's identity. In other cases, though, it is more significant. For many biographies of scientists their cultural/religious background really isn't particularly important to their personalities or their lives, but for others it is very important. For instance, if one didn't mention Oppenheimer was American in the intro to his biography one would be really missing the point of his relevance to 20th century history. Imagine for a moment that Oppenheimer had faced racial discrimation as part of his later troubles and that he wrote a book on Zionism, was considered for posts in Israel, etc. Wouldn't it be worth noting his background in the intro sentence then? The problem with Einstein, of course, is that his Jewish ancestry influenced his life so directly but he was also a complex guy whose personal identity was more paradoxical than most. He was born a German, but through sense and circumstance left Germany (both physically and legally.) He was born a Jew but through intellect and inclination did not practice that faith overtly, though many people (myself included) would argue that he remained culturally very Jewish. Both of those things were a huge influence on his life and appear dramatically throughout his biography. The words "German" or "Jew/Jewish" each appear over a dozen times in the body of the article, not including the text box and category listings. If he were not born a Jew in Germany he'd probably not have left (and how might the world have changed?) Even if he hadn't written a book on Jewish topics, how many people were offered leading positions in Israel? Simply describing him as German and/or Jewish (or worse calling him Swedish or American as others have done) stumbles over the whole purpose of that introductory sentence because it is at best vague and at worst a deliberate misrepresentation of the truth.
{{WikiProject United States|importance=low}}
::Before I hop off my high horse, let me comment that I think the issue here is that we should try to have in the opening sentence a description that is as accurate as possible and that introduces the rest of the biography as elegantly as we can. For Einstein, I think the substance and complexity evident in the rest of the article warrants some more care in the opening sentence, and if that makes for language that qualifies itself then all the better because Einstein himself was very much about such qualification. I understand that a lot of folks would (idealistically, I believe) prefer to ignore the issue of nationality and religion. (Let's not kid ourselves about not having an agenda here, shall we? Nobody participates in an encyclopedia without one....) I'll buy that as far as it goes because I think it has an essentially noble motivation, and in many cases is really truthful in addition to being an expression of tolerance. In this case, though, such a method winds up doing more harm than good because it isn't truthful and degrades the tolerance of Einstein as expressed by the circumstances of his background. Doesn't it seem odd that the current introduction parses his profession into "theoretical physicist" in order to distinguish him from experimental physicists, qualifies his place of birth by saying he was "German-born" yet ignores his Jewish ancestry? IMO we should try for a sentence that most accurately describes the man, and one that does not mention his Jewish ancestry fails to do that.
{{WikiProject Socialism|importance=Mid}}
::All that said, I'd like a little more support or substantive refutation of these ideas before making such changes. Perhaps we should just go ahead and make them though and see how long it takes before they are reverted in order to get some idea what people think about it. ] 05:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
{{WikiProject Mathematics|priority=High}}
:::I agree with most of what Geeman says—except perhaps his conclusion. I’m not opposed in principle to mentioning Jewishness in the intro, but I see two problems:
{{WikiProject Veganism and Vegetarianism|importance=High}}
:::*One is stability. The “German-born” label has remained stable for some time. I fear that if you change it, that would open the door to those who want to label him in addition or instead as “Swiss” and/or “American.” (You can see from the archive that there is sentiment in that favor.)
{{WikiProject New Jersey|importance=mid}}
:::*The other problem is conciseness. You presumably want to add this to the first sentence, which is already pretty full. Adding more than a word or two would make for unwieldy prose. I don’t care at all for bunix’s suggestion of introducing Jewishness indirectly, for it is inherently wordy. I wonder if a solution might be to add a third paragraph to the intro, summarizing the non-scientific things he is noted for, and mention Jewishness there.
{{WikiProject Philosophy|importance=Low |philosopher=yes |science=yes}}
:::Although his Jewishness is marginally notable, if someone is reading the intro only, they can do without a mention of Jewishness. If they are reading more, its mention at the top of the biography proper, is sufficient. I suggest we leave it at that. --] 03:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
{{WikiProject Physics|importance=Top |relativity=yes |bio=yes |hist=yes}}
::::This argument has been going on for a long time now, with reversion wars etc. along the way. There is a whole (overly long) article for getting into details and influences; the intro should be ''just enough'' to orient readers who don't already know anything about the subject (which may be an empty set when it comes to Einstein). The ''only'' reason that "German-born" was retained was that it explains why there is a German-language pronunciation link immediately beforehand. Everybody wants to claim Einstein as a member of their particular tribe, which if we try to accommodate that in the intro leads to a ridiculous-looking result. (We also had that with regard to national flags in the infobox.) — ] 20:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
{{WikiProject Astronomy|cosmology=yes|importance=mid}}
:::::Of the counter-arguments presented above I think the most compelling is the conciseness issue. The remaining arguments strike me as being variations on a theme: that adding information to the existing "German-born" description will lead to a series of edits in which people will, for the sake of their own agendas, try to lay claim to Einstein. My counter-arguments to those counter-arguments:
{{WikiProject Religion|importance=low}}
:::::<b>Regarding Conciseness:</b> Unfortunately, there is no single word that adequately describes a German-born, expatriated, non-dogmatic Jew. Wouldn't it be nice if we could just say "Agnostigebrew" or something? :) In his native tongue, of course, we could probably slap a few words together to create one of those Germanic lingual monstrosities that even included his profession ("Einstein was an Ausdeutcherjudenphysiker who....) but, sadly, English is a rather blunt tool. The problem, though, is that where some folks may see the current intro as concise others I see it as incomplete. In fact, the "German-born" descriptor is really more confused than concise. Isn't the logical next step in the conciseness argument to be even more concise and simply say "German" rather than "German-born" and if someone wanted more information about his later nationalities they should turn to the body of the article? I don't think that's the way to go. "German-born" is more truthful to the man for all that it is less concise. But "German-born" is only half-truthful because it ignores the reason for his emigration: his Jewish ancestry. Since Einstein was such a complex guy we're just not going to be clear, accurate AND concise all at once unless someone somehow manages to come up with the linguistic equivalent of Relatively where E=Einstein, M=Maternity and C=Culture.... We're just going to have to accept that limitation (like the speed of light--since I'm going nuts with the physics metaphors.)
{{WikiProject Israel|importance=high}}
:::::<b>Regarding Stability and Laying Claim to Einstein</b> I appreciate that folks like stability in WP articles, but I would argue that we should be less concerned with stability and those who lay claim to someone's legacy than we are with the accuracy of the article. Yes, I know there are Americans and Swiss who want to lay claim to Einstein in one way or another, and they are certainly welcome to make their arguments. We should give those arguments due consideration when they inevitably crop up. I'm equally certain there are a large number of Jews who claim Einstein as one of their own in ways that Einstein himself would find highly disagreeable. However, the fear of additional edits and opening up the issue to the whole nationalistic muddle should not be used as a counter to the argument about whether Einstein should or should not be defined in the opening sentence of his WP article as being of Jewish ancestry. The question is whether it more accurately describes him than the current text.
{{WikiProject European history|importance=Mid}}
:::::I also disagree with the suggestion that "German-born" only remains in the article in order to explain the German pronunciation of Einstein's name. Mentioning the national origin and major affiliation of a person in the opening sentence of the WP biography is so common as to be a template.
{{WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors|user=Otterpops |date=26 February 2007 (UTC)|old-user-1=Otterpops |old-date-1=4 March 2007 (UTC)|old-user-2=Otterpops |old-date-2=5 March 2007 (UTC)|old-user-3=Otterpops |old-date-3=14 March 2007 (UTC)}}
:::::A more legitimate way of dealing with the issue is to have a note in the plaintext of the article asking those who would edit it away from "German-born" and "Jewish ancestry" (or whatever terms wind up being used) to please look to the talk page and present their arguments there before making a change. As it is, the Einstein page seems to get vandalized fairly regularly, and there are plenty of folks monitoring it, so we can certainly deal with folks who might be able to actually muster an argument to support their agenda. ] 06:08, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
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::::::I was the last one (modulo reversions) to edit the nationality portion of the intro, so the reason I gave for retaining the (long-standing) "German-born" is first-hand. "German" can't be used for conciseness, simply because it's a wrong characterization. One nice aspect of "-born" is it hints at a more complicated nationality, which is in fact exhibited later in the article. — ] 21:23, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
{{Top 25 Report|Jan 4 2015|Apr 23 2017|Apr 30 2017|Jun 18 2017|Mar 11 2018|Jul 23 2023|Feb 18 2024}}
==atomic bomb==
{{User:MiszaBot/config
I always heard that EInstein had invented the atomic bomb while working in a top secret area of America is this true? If so where? {{unsigned|63.215.29.125}}
|maxarchivesize = 250K
:I don't know where you heard that, but you shouldn't trust them as an information source. The role played by Einstein in the development of the atomic bomb was twofold: (a) the physics of ] had been materially advanced by Einstein's earlier theoretical work, e.g. the principle of mass-energy equivalence; (b) at the outset of WWII, Einstein was persuaded to sign the ] to the President of the US urging that the US mount an effort to develop an atomic weapon before the Germans. That was the impetus for the ], which was the actual development effort (in which Einstein played no part). — ] 00:12, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
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::It's really only one-fold. Einstein didn't do anything with nuclear physics. E=mc^2 comes into play but not in any way Einstein would have known about at the time he postulated it. His biggest role was the letter, and even if he had not written that the Manhattan Project probably would have begun independently a few years later (and the project that ''was'' created by his letter didn't amount to much of anything). --] 00:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
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:::Note: I didn't say that Einstein worked in the area of nuclear physics; I chose my wording carefully. ] 20:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
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== Notable prizes ==

Every time I add the ] to the notable prizes section of the infobox, ] removes it. Does anyone else have an opinion on this? ] 23:53, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
:Yeah, I think SuperGirl usurps too much authority; I recall her saying on past occasions that there was a "consensus" for this or that (always in favor of her personal opinion) when opinion was actually substantially divided. The Copley Medal is a prestigious award, comparable to the ] in mathematicians, which we would expect to see noted.
::It seems like a "notable" enough "prize" to keep in the infobox to me.... Supergirl: Why are you removing it? Is it against some infobox list or template? ] 05:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
:::I originally added that prize to the infobox and was later shocked to see it removed. --] 05:26, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
::::Since there is a consensus, I'll add it. --] 05:29, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

== Summation Convention ==

No mention of the Einstein Summation convention, not his most important work, but maybe could be included? (this thing is at: ]) <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]) {{{2|}}}.</small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
:Feel free to add a link in the "appendices" to the article; it isn't significant enough to mention in the main body. — ] 23:07, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

==Einstein Plagiarism Speculation==
Maybe their should be a section detailin this:- * *
* by ]
* ** by ]
*
** by ]
** by ]
** by ], January 2005
** by ]
**
** by ]
**] by ], B.S., M.E., Ch.D.
**] by ] – The Canberra Times September 19, 2006
* by ] (Author)

From many peoples understanding Albert Einstein was a plagiarist. However his work on Brownian motion (for which he got the Nobel prize) was apparently original and quite good.
Remember, he didn't get the Nobel prize for "his" relativity theory. :DEinstein received the Nobel Prize for his work on the photo-electric effect.

This should be in the article from a non biased POV (regardless of whether links are Communist or Nationalist the references and facts should be taken note of) ] 14:12, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
:your "references" are a collection of anti-semitic and confused Christian cranks. Misplaced Pages doesn't need every piece of nonsense found on the internet. The full article is at ] and discusses anything you ever wanted to know about the topic. ] <small>]</small> 15:08, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
:Have you even read or looked at the references you are mentioning above ? In particular, the paper says exactly the opposite of what you are implying. ] 22:12, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
:And who is Viktor Toth, that we must accept his googling bit? ] 23:10, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
::Have a look at the post script to Toth's article. Well worth a read --] 23:15, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Bjerknes' site gives a long list of published references for Einstein's having plagiarized Poincaré for Relativity and E=mc2. ] 13:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

== Theory of Relativity ==

I read in ''Barron's Dictionary of Mathematics Terms'' by Douglas Downing that the mathematics of Einstein's theory of relativity is a non-Euclidean geometry developed by a German mathematician named Riemmann. Since non-Euclidean geometry does not correspond to physical reality, unlike Euclidean geometry, would not this cast doubt upon Einstein's theory, since it is one about physics.
2:41 December 5, 2006 (UTC) ]
If I'm not mistaken, isn't it Einstein's general theory of relativity itself that is the tool that has proven that reality is made of flat Euclidean space (when mass isn't around)?
2:14 December 7, 2006 (EST)
Well, according to the book I just mentioned, ''Barron's Dictionary of Mathematics Terms'' by Douglas Downing, Einstein used a non-Euclidean geometry developed by a German mathematician named George Friedrich Bernhard Riemman (1826-1866). It discusses this in its article on Riemman. Misplaced Pages also says that Einstein used this non-Euclidean geometry in its article on Riemman. So I do not think that what you say is correct.
15:02:30 December 7, 2006 (UTC) ]

:In the ''general'' theory of relativity (but not the ''special'' theory), gravitation is treated as an effect of the curvature of the space-time continuum, building on geometric ideas of Gauss, Riemann, and others. The success of the theory supports the notion that the actual physical structure of space-time is such a more general geometry than the flat one of Euclid. On what grounds do you assert that it is actually Euclidean? — ] 00:34, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:It is pointless to speculate about properties of an empty universe, since that doesn't correspond to anything that can ever be within our experience. Nearly all ] (theory of the large-scale structure of the universe) relies heavily on the general relativistic property of mass causing space-time to curve. — ] 00:34, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== Education "controversy" ==

Do we really need the lengthy analysis of Einstein's grade card. Seems the article is plenty long without dragging out the grade details. Also, it is not our job here to ''presume'' or ''deduce'' anything (removed that part) - just to report the pertinate ''published'' and ''notable'' information. ] 03:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

:It seems to me that Einstein had the same attitude that almost every good scientist and engineer has (and probably lots of other people): he paid more attention to and did more work in those subjects that he found of interest. It's really silly to analyze individual report card grades anyway. (For example, I took a course in two different years, failed it one time and aced it the next.) The only point I see in mentioning the topic ''at all'' is to counter the oft-heard claim that "Einstein failed mathematics in school". — ] 00:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Copied the following from my talk for all to view:

=== Einstein Edits ===


==GA Reassessment==
Alright, let me explain to you the logic of this, when it comes to flow of article.
{{Misplaced Pages:Good article reassessment/Albert Einstein/1}}


==Birther bias==
I agree that embellishment and such should have no place in scientific articles in general, however I disagree with your ideas here.
The John McCain article doesn't say that he was Panama-born American. To obsess over German-born is an overt way of stating that Einstein wasn't American. ] (]) 11:36, 7 November 2024 (UTC)


:Gee, I wonder if there are any differences between two people's biographies that might make it correct in one instance but not another! Give us a break, would you? <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 11:47, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
You are being narrow minded. Read the 2 paragraphs pertaining to his education and performance in school. The reason why I included the additional information is to end that section with "Einstein only excelled in the subjects he deemed relevant to his scientific career."
::Hmm. Einstein is an Ashkenazi Jew and can't be American? We otherize an Ashkenazi Jew? ] (]) 11:51, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
:::Before I file a report about it, I'll toss you a chance to rephrase the above statement into some non-disgusting characterization of what I said. Alternatively, you could call me an antisemite directly instead, which would likely expedite the process. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 12:04, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
::::I edit without intimidation. I don't quiver. I stand for what is right unapologetically. Likewise, I welcome you to be bold. ] (]) 13:29, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
:::::What is right is that when you are in somebody else's pkayground, you abide by their rules. In the case of wiki, the rule is consensus. -- ] (]) 16:01, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
::::::When a practice is fishy, I question it. I understand that the majority sometimes shouts down a dissenter. Just people a Founding Father came up with a 3/5 clause, that doesn't mean it is right. Similarly, a Founding Father zeroed in on birtherism, that doesn't mean it is right. Furthermore, by your own admission, you don't share much Einstein on the question of birth. Lastly, there is no consensus to start every article for those born outside the U.S. with X-born. ] (]) 16:20, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
:::::::No-one is saying he wasn't American when he died. A lot of people are saying that his nationality around the time of his death is less important than his nationality which he associated with for most of his life. ] (]) 05:56, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
:::::If you want to get what you feel to be an important message across, you can actually speak plainly and without fear, instead of carefully hedging your unjustified accusations of other editors' impropriety such that you won't immediately get shitcanned for it, which is what you clearly did here. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 07:31, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
:How does ''German-born'' conflict with his being nationalized American? Real people fall into multiple categories, and which category is most important depends on context. I am an Ashkenazi Jew, an American, a Michigander in exile, a college graduate, a systems programmer, a father and many other things. There seems to be a consensus that the birth place is relevant '''in the lead''', and I see no bias in that. -- ] (]) 16:01, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
::There are those who argue that being foreign-born (even when naturalized) makes an American unqualified to hold a security clearance or hold positions of authority. Consequently, to start the article with a divisive language is uncalled for. ] (]) 16:23, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
:::John McCain, born to a US Air Force officer father and an American mother on an American military base in Panama, is a ] of the United States. Einstein, born in Germany to German parents, is not. It's ridiculous that this needs to be spelled out. &ndash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;(]) 16:55, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
::::the Natural-born-citizen clause is an American invention from hundreds of years ago which is ignored by many countries. A Palestinian with Gaza parents born in Saudi Arabia won't become Saudi Arabian. The birther skepticism of Americanness is typically raised against non-European Americans. It was raised against Obama despite his American mother. Off the top of my head, I give you 2 examples: Nikola Tesla and Elon Musk. Neither had American parents at the time of their births. ] (]) 17:03, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
:::::Yes, the world is full of bigoted xenophobes. It is also full of people who are not xenophobes. Do you have any evidence that the consensus on what to include in the lead is the result of bigotry? Your personal prejudices don't count as evidence, only real statements by real people during the discussion. People who despise the birthers disagree with you, so don't paint everybody with the same brush -- ] (]) 17:24, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
::::::Okay. Let us focus on the task at hand.
::::::1. ] "is a businessman" is good. Elon Musk is an American businessman is also acceptable.
::::::2. ] "was a Serbian-American" engineer.
::::::3. Albert Einstein "was a German-American theoretical physicist"
::::::I submit my proposal for consideration on this platform. ] (]) 17:36, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
::::He was not born to German parents but to German passport holding Ashkenazi Jewish parents. ] (]) 21:20, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::Only according to the Nazi definition of "German". But that is not relevant here. See ]. --] (]) 07:07, 10 December 2024 (UTC)


*Let's see ... I'm sure Einstein said something on point to this ... Ah, yes!
This is THE TRUTH. Alright, i can take out the "presume" and "deduce" bit, if need be, however, I STRONGLY SUGGEST THAT THIS VITAL INFORMATION AS TO THE thinking of Albert Einstein, or his perception of education in general as a reflection of his own experiences through high school, is VERY IMPORTANT AND RELEVANT to this article. It's not just the flow of the entire paragraph, its a concluding sentence, which is important in any academic essay.
::{{tq|If my theory of relativity is proven correct, Germany will claim me as a German and France will declare that I am a citizen of the world. Should my theory prove untrue, France will say that I am a German and Germany will declare that I am a Jew. }}
:From a quick search this quotation doesn't appear in any of the Einstein articles. Too bad. ]] 18:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC)


== Stating Einstein´s historic importance in the intro text. ==
I am not sure about your level of understanding of these subtle ideas. But JUST FOR YOU, i will take out the "presume" and "deduce" bit, even though it is blatantly obvious, I was being pragmatic by using those 2 verbs to suggest that there might have been more to Einstein than what's on paper.


Einstein is among the most famnous people in history. He shall be named what he is. "one of the most famous physicists and scientists in history". and his political impact was immense in the 20th history. see his letter to the president and his calling for world peace and socialism as one of the world´s most famous people. I want to state all that with one more line in the intro text. seems a must to me. ] (]) 18:38, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
Fine, i'll take it out, but I am going to include the concluding sentence, and if you still have a problem with it, let's take it up with higher personell.


:"Famous" is one of the examples given of puffery to avoid at ]. Let the accomplishments speak for themselves. &ndash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;(]) 18:45, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
Regards, --] 03:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
:His political impact is already mentioned in the lead, and is proportionately represented in a balanced summary of the article body—that's what the lead is meant to be. His fame in itself is <em>also</em> already noted in the lead, which is something we generally avoid because such statements are usually totally lacking in informative value or substance. We understandably don't avoid such mention here, but we don't need additional superlatives that do nothing but ]. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 18:48, 21 December 2024 (UTC)


== Einstein and Austrian citizenship ==
:''Emperor'' ?? where'd that come from? OK Peter (as you first signed the above post), but I'd suggest taking the issue to the Einstein talk page rather than some ''higher personell'' - whoever you're referring to there. As I obviously ''cannot'' argue with ''THE TRUTH'' with my limited ''level of understanding of these subtle ideas.''
:"Einstein only excelled in the subjects he deemed relevant to his scientific career." -- hmm, or was he more normal and excelled in subjects that he was interested in? Do we have a reference that states his career oriented focus? or just that he was following his interests as many very bright teens have done throughout history. ] 03:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)


The article has been corrected to indicate that Albert Einstein never became an Austrian citizen. The Einstein Archives of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem in the article "" states:
:Copying this to ''talk:Albert Einstein'' - please respond there wher all of the ''higher personell'' guys can watch. ] 03:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)


:{{tq|Early in 1911, Einstein is appointed at the German University of Prague. Such an appointment is “contingent on the acquisition of Austrian citizenship” and thus, Einstein is requested to “take, without delay, the necessary steps to obtain the release from present citizenship”.}}
] or ''Emperor'' has inserted another version of his ''concluding sentence'' which appears to be based on his interpretation and thus comes near to or is ]. Also he seems to have re-added similar material a number of times, I have previously left him a ] warning on his talk page. ] 04:00, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
:{{tq|However, while it is confirmed that, with a delay of one semester and dressed in a most picturesque uniform, Einstein took the solemn oath of office, the process of naturalization is not finalized before Einstein leaves Prague for Zurich in 1912.}}
:I have reverted the latest version of Overlord’s conclusion with the comment, “This conclusion does not necessarily follow.” In doing so I had in mind Vsmith’s comment above, “was he more normal and excelled in subjects that he was interested in? …” On reflection, however, I see that the evidence not only fails to support Overlord’s conclusion; it positively refutes it: Einstein got a 6 in history and 5’s in German and Italian, and in Munich he got high marks in Latin and Greek. How did this excellence advance his scientific career? On the other hand, he got only a 4 in technical drawing; you would think that if he were so career-focused, he would have tried harder there. --] 23:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC) I have heard that his low mark in French was the result of trying to cram three years of French into one year. So Robinson’s interpretation is questionable. --] 23:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
:{{tq|Thus he remains a Swiss citizen and ''never became a subject of the Austrian Empire''.}}


The article also notes that he lost his German citizenship on April 29, 1934 not in 1933 as indicated in the infobox. --] (]) 01:23, 23 December 2024 (UTC)


It is enough for Austria to make the world believe that Hitler was a German and Mozart an Austrian. In fact, it is the other way around. The Austrians don't have to steal Einstein as well.] (]) 13:44, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
I must say I both agree and disagree with the above arguments. Firstly, the marks he obtained in other courses DO NOT refute the concluding sentence of mine. However, they don't necessarily support it either. That's why I have accepted the current changes until I can find evidence of a quote of Einstein, clearly supporting my conclusion. I am almost certain that I am right, however proving it is difficult. Einstein's priorities lied in the physical and mathematical sciences. Obtaining an excellent grade in also history doesn't suggest I am wrong. His above average marks in other courses do not falsify my claims in any way. If anything, it does suggest that irrespective of his qualms he did take pride in what he attempted. The reason why I am certain of my claims, is because of several aspects in his earlier life. I am not going to mention these, as they do not provide the proof that I am looking for at this point. I believe in the future, once I find something irrefutable, I will include my original concluding sentence. --] 14:43, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


== Einstein being a Jew should be mentioned in the first paragraph ==
===English and Einstein's matura===


There is a debate above about if he should be introduced as "German born". I think him being German is significantly less important to his identity than being Jewish, and the rest of the article seems to agree, frequently referencing that he is a Jew. It is a common phenomenon on Misplaced Pages that Jews are not immediately mentioned as Jewish if they are secular, and this is a form of bias. ] (]) 19:30, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
Something hopefully less controversial... The article currently says: ''Einstein also completed ], for which he received no grade.''. This, I believe, is incorrect. The document is a pre-printed form with the possible courses; if Einstein did no receive a grade, it is proably because he did not take the course. In more recent times (until a few years ago), Swiss students could choose between Italian and English as a third language. I cannot be confident that it was already the case in Einstein's times, but it looks like a good explanation for the absence of a grade. In any case, I'll just remove the sentence. ] 23:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)


:Believe it or not, this has been discussed before. In fact, such discussion (though not the most engaging) is already on this page. Please review the existing discussions in this talk page's archives before starting another discussion seeking to change the existing consensus. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 20:55, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
::I'm sorry! You can close the discussion ] (]) 21:16, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
:::The most recent discussion is archived at ]. The person who wanted a simple statement of "He was Jewish" got blocked for their trouble. Everyone else felt that the issue was more complicated than just bloodline heritage. Jewishness may also depend on a person's religious stance and their cultural practice. Einstein definitely did not have those aspects. He explicitly turned away from all that. ] (]) 16:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC)


== Einstein Smart Meter advertisements ==
I studied in switzerland for several years during primary school, secondary and high school, and it IS possible to complete subjects WITHOUT receiving a grade. However, usually it would be denoted with "bes." for "besucht" and so it seems that you might be right. I must add, however, that it is not unlikely that Einstein also completed English studies, because I have a friend, in his 50s, who studied in the same High school as einstein did, and he did indeed receive grades for german, french, italian and english. However, it might well be the case that Einstein studied the more scientifically focused "typ". In any case, it's better not to presume. --] 14:31, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


So in the UK there are many different ads for ‘smart’ electricity meters which depict a likeness of Einstein doing various things. I feel like this is important as it shows the modern public image of Einstein as a ‘smart’ person.
:: If there is no reliable source for the statement that he received no grade, it should simply be deleted. ] 19:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


Here is one example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zt_xT_0tx0 ] (]) 21:52, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
== relativity ==


:Just as extra citation, I found this page about them:
would it be true to say that he was wrong and that e=mcsquared and that at higher velocities the energy increased and not the mass? <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (]) 01:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->
:https://www.smartenergygb.org/about-us/meet-einstein ] (]) 21:55, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
: No (I don't know what to say more as the three suppostions don't match). ] 19:10, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
::]. It is not a unique occurrence that Einstein's legacy as a "smart person" is being used to promote the products and services. <big>]]</big> 01:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
::Indeed, there is some sort of misunderstanding, but it's not clear what. One way of looking at '']'' (click on that link for more detail) is that the ''m'' refers to a velocity-dependent mass which increases according to <math>m(v) = m(0) / \sqrt{1-(\frac{v}{c})^2}</math>. — ] 01:01, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Fair enough. ] (]) 15:55, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

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GA Reassessment

Albert Einstein

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Article (edit | visual edit | history· Article talk (edit | history· WatchWatch article reassessment page • GAN review not found
Result: Kept, with thanks to XOR'easter for their hard work. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:11, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

It looks like there's some uncited text and other problems including

  • If one end of a wormhole was positively charged, the other end would be negatively charged. These properties led Einstein to believe that pairs of particles and antiparticles could be described in this way.
  • Later, after the death of his second wife Elsa, Einstein was briefly in a relationship with Margarita Konenkova. Konenkova was a Russian spy who was married to the Russian sculptor Sergei Konenkov (who created the bronze bust of Einstein at the Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton).*the Einstein-Cartan theory section
  • The equations of motion section
  • The Adiabatic principle and action-angle variables section
  • In "Über die Entwicklung unserer Anschauungen über das Wesen und die Konstitution der Strahlung" ("The Development of our Views on the Composition and Essence of Radiation"), on the quantization of light, and in an earlier 1909 paper, Einstein showed that Max Planck's energy quanta must have well-defined momenta and act in some respects as independent, point-like particles. This paper introduced the photon concept (although the name photon was introduced later by Gilbert N. Lewis in 1926) and inspired the notion of wave–particle duality in quantum mechanics. Einstein saw this wave–particle duality in radiation as concrete evidence for his conviction that physics needed a new, unified foundation.
  • The matter waves section
  • Although he was lauded for this work, his efforts were ultimately unsuccessful. Notably, Einstein's unification project did not accommodate the strong and weak nuclear forces, neither of which was well understood until many years after his death. Although mainstream physics long ignored Einstein's approaches to unification, Einstein's work has motivated modern quests for a theory of everything, in particular string theory, where geometrical fields emerge in a unified quantum-mechanical setting.
  • The other investigations section
  • Einstein suggested to Erwin Schrödinger that he might be able to reproduce the statistics of a Bose–Einstein gas by considering a box. Then to each possible quantum motion of a particle in a box associate an independent harmonic oscillator. Quantizing these oscillators, each level will have an integer occupation number, which will be the number of particles in it.
  • Many popular quotations are often misattributed to him.

and possibly more. Though some of these could have been general referenced and I missed it. Onegreatjoke (talk) 18:01, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Seems rather odd to open this without editing the article yourself or raising any issues on the article talkpage first. --JBL (talk) 18:45, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

information This review was put on hold for two months to relieve pressure on topic editors at GAR. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:57, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

On a first reading, none of the uncited statements look atrocious. Various standard textbooks/histories/biographies should cover them, I think. XOR'easter (talk) 18:56, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
Working through these as I find the time. XOR'easter (talk) 21:04, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
All the {{citation needed}} tags are addressed now. XOR'easter (talk) 20:20, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
XOR'easter, thanks for your efforts. A couple of things still need to be directly cited: the quotes in the sentence beginning "As he stated in the paper" in the physical cosmology section, the Einstein–Cartan theory and Wave–particle duality sections. Also, do you think MOS:OVERSECTION is a problem at all? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:46, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
The citation for the "As he stated in the paper..." is immediately preceding that passage. I don't see the need to repeat footnotes there. There are more divisions into short subsections than I would have included, but I'm not sure that's a problem per se. XOR'easter (talk) 17:41, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Birther bias

The John McCain article doesn't say that he was Panama-born American. To obsess over German-born is an overt way of stating that Einstein wasn't American. Arbeiten8 (talk) 11:36, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Gee, I wonder if there are any differences between two people's biographies that might make it correct in one instance but not another! Give us a break, would you? Remsense ‥  11:47, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
Hmm. Einstein is an Ashkenazi Jew and can't be American? We otherize an Ashkenazi Jew? Arbeiten8 (talk) 11:51, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
Before I file a report about it, I'll toss you a chance to rephrase the above statement into some non-disgusting characterization of what I said. Alternatively, you could call me an antisemite directly instead, which would likely expedite the process. Remsense ‥  12:04, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
I edit without intimidation. I don't quiver. I stand for what is right unapologetically. Likewise, I welcome you to be bold. Arbeiten8 (talk) 13:29, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
What is right is that when you are in somebody else's pkayground, you abide by their rules. In the case of wiki, the rule is consensus. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 16:01, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
When a practice is fishy, I question it. I understand that the majority sometimes shouts down a dissenter. Just people a Founding Father came up with a 3/5 clause, that doesn't mean it is right. Similarly, a Founding Father zeroed in on birtherism, that doesn't mean it is right. Furthermore, by your own admission, you don't share much Einstein on the question of birth. Lastly, there is no consensus to start every article for those born outside the U.S. with X-born. Arbeiten8 (talk) 16:20, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
No-one is saying he wasn't American when he died. A lot of people are saying that his nationality around the time of his death is less important than his nationality which he associated with for most of his life. BTF Flotsam (talk) 05:56, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
If you want to get what you feel to be an important message across, you can actually speak plainly and without fear, instead of carefully hedging your unjustified accusations of other editors' impropriety such that you won't immediately get shitcanned for it, which is what you clearly did here. Remsense ‥  07:31, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
How does German-born conflict with his being nationalized American? Real people fall into multiple categories, and which category is most important depends on context. I am an Ashkenazi Jew, an American, a Michigander in exile, a college graduate, a systems programmer, a father and many other things. There seems to be a consensus that the birth place is relevant in the lead, and I see no bias in that. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 16:01, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
There are those who argue that being foreign-born (even when naturalized) makes an American unqualified to hold a security clearance or hold positions of authority. Consequently, to start the article with a divisive language is uncalled for. Arbeiten8 (talk) 16:23, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
John McCain, born to a US Air Force officer father and an American mother on an American military base in Panama, is a natural-born citizen of the United States. Einstein, born in Germany to German parents, is not. It's ridiculous that this needs to be spelled out. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:55, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
the Natural-born-citizen clause is an American invention from hundreds of years ago which is ignored by many countries. A Palestinian with Gaza parents born in Saudi Arabia won't become Saudi Arabian. The birther skepticism of Americanness is typically raised against non-European Americans. It was raised against Obama despite his American mother. Off the top of my head, I give you 2 examples: Nikola Tesla and Elon Musk. Neither had American parents at the time of their births. Arbeiten8 (talk) 17:03, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
Yes, the world is full of bigoted xenophobes. It is also full of people who are not xenophobes. Do you have any evidence that the consensus on what to include in the lead is the result of bigotry? Your personal prejudices don't count as evidence, only real statements by real people during the discussion. People who despise the birthers disagree with you, so don't paint everybody with the same brush -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 17:24, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
Okay. Let us focus on the task at hand.
1. Elon Musk "is a businessman" is good. Elon Musk is an American businessman is also acceptable.
2. Nikola Tesla "was a Serbian-American" engineer.
3. Albert Einstein "was a German-American theoretical physicist"
I submit my proposal for consideration on this platform. Arbeiten8 (talk) 17:36, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
He was not born to German parents but to German passport holding Ashkenazi Jewish parents. 92.116.253.224 (talk) 21:20, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
Only according to the Nazi definition of "German". But that is not relevant here. See WP:NONAZIS. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:07, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
  • Let's see ... I'm sure Einstein said something on point to this ... Ah, yes!
If my theory of relativity is proven correct, Germany will claim me as a German and France will declare that I am a citizen of the world. Should my theory prove untrue, France will say that I am a German and Germany will declare that I am a Jew.
From a quick search this quotation doesn't appear in any of the Einstein articles. Too bad. EEng 18:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Stating Einstein´s historic importance in the intro text.

Einstein is among the most famnous people in history. He shall be named what he is. "one of the most famous physicists and scientists in history". and his political impact was immense in the 20th history. see his letter to the president and his calling for world peace and socialism as one of the world´s most famous people. I want to state all that with one more line in the intro text. seems a must to me. BauhausFan89 (talk) 18:38, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

"Famous" is one of the examples given of puffery to avoid at MOS:PUFFERY. Let the accomplishments speak for themselves. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:45, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
His political impact is already mentioned in the lead, and is proportionately represented in a balanced summary of the article body—that's what the lead is meant to be. His fame in itself is also already noted in the lead, which is something we generally avoid because such statements are usually totally lacking in informative value or substance. We understandably don't avoid such mention here, but we don't need additional superlatives that do nothing but tell, not show. Remsense ‥  18:48, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Einstein and Austrian citizenship

The article has been corrected to indicate that Albert Einstein never became an Austrian citizen. The Einstein Archives of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem in the article "Albert Einstein German, Swiss and American?" states:

Early in 1911, Einstein is appointed at the German University of Prague. Such an appointment is “contingent on the acquisition of Austrian citizenship” and thus, Einstein is requested to “take, without delay, the necessary steps to obtain the release from present citizenship”.
However, while it is confirmed that, with a delay of one semester and dressed in a most picturesque uniform, Einstein took the solemn oath of office, the process of naturalization is not finalized before Einstein leaves Prague for Zurich in 1912.
Thus he remains a Swiss citizen and never became a subject of the Austrian Empire.

The article also notes that he lost his German citizenship on April 29, 1934 not in 1933 as indicated in the infobox. --Guest2625 (talk) 01:23, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

It is enough for Austria to make the world believe that Hitler was a German and Mozart an Austrian. In fact, it is the other way around. The Austrians don't have to steal Einstein as well.Kerngesund1985 (talk) 13:44, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Einstein being a Jew should be mentioned in the first paragraph

There is a debate above about if he should be introduced as "German born". I think him being German is significantly less important to his identity than being Jewish, and the rest of the article seems to agree, frequently referencing that he is a Jew. It is a common phenomenon on Misplaced Pages that Jews are not immediately mentioned as Jewish if they are secular, and this is a form of bias. Haplodiploid75 (talk) 19:30, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Believe it or not, this has been discussed before. In fact, such discussion (though not the most engaging) is already on this page. Please review the existing discussions in this talk page's archives before starting another discussion seeking to change the existing consensus. Remsense ‥  20:55, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
I'm sorry! You can close the discussion Haplodiploid75 (talk) 21:16, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
The most recent discussion is archived at Talk:Albert_Einstein/Archive_19#Einstein_and_Jewishness. The person who wanted a simple statement of "He was Jewish" got blocked for their trouble. Everyone else felt that the issue was more complicated than just bloodline heritage. Jewishness may also depend on a person's religious stance and their cultural practice. Einstein definitely did not have those aspects. He explicitly turned away from all that. Binksternet (talk) 16:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Einstein Smart Meter advertisements

So in the UK there are many different ads for ‘smart’ electricity meters which depict a likeness of Einstein doing various things. I feel like this is important as it shows the modern public image of Einstein as a ‘smart’ person.

Here is one example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zt_xT_0tx0 2A00:23C6:3E27:A101:B147:A7C5:F44C:627D (talk) 21:52, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Just as extra citation, I found this page about them:
https://www.smartenergygb.org/about-us/meet-einstein 2A00:23C6:3E27:A101:B147:A7C5:F44C:627D (talk) 21:55, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
Trivial. It is not a unique occurrence that Einstein's legacy as a "smart person" is being used to promote the products and services. Yue🌙 01:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
Fair enough. 2A00:23C6:3E27:A101:D0B5:C1F7:61AD:CCA (talk) 15:55, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
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