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{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|class=B|vital=yes|living=no|listas=Kim, Jong-Il|1= |
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{{Vital article|level=5|topic=People|subpage=Politicians|class=B}} |
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{{WikiProject Biography|politician-work-group=yes|politician-priority=high|military-work-group=yes|military-priority=}} |
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{{WikiProject Korea|importance=High|nk=yes|milhist=yes}} |
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{{Auto archiving notice |bot=Lowercase sigmabot III |age=28 |dounreplied=yes}} |
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{{WikiProject Biography|living=no|class=B|politician-work-group=yes|politician-priority=high|listas=Kim, Jong-Il}} |
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{{Top 25 Report|Apr 19 2020|Apr 26 2020}} |
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<!-- DO NOT PUT NEW POSTS HERE: New posts go at the BOTTOM of the page --> |
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<!-- DO NOT PUT NEW POSTS HERE: New posts go at the BOTTOM of the page --> |
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{{old move|date=6 April 2023|from=Kim Jong-il|destination=Kim Jong Il|result=moved|link=Special:Permalink/1149753649#Requested move 6 April 2023}} |
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== Move discussion in progress == |
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There is a move discussion in progress on ] which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. <!-- Talk:Yuri Kim (ambassador)#Requested move 25 May 2022 crosspost --> —] 06:06, 25 May 2022 (UTC) |
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== A Kim here, a Kim there, and before long you're talking some real Kim == |
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Does anyone see the inherent difficulty in colloquially referring to the subject as "Kim" when the article necessarily deals with two other principals who share the family name "Kim"? ] (]) 02:52, 30 May 2022 (UTC) |
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:Kim by surname only should exclusively refer to ], who is the subject of this article. If there are specific instances that's ambiguous, use the full name. This should be the case with any other bio article, and I don't think such edits would be deemed controversial so it should be free of edit wars, in theory. --] (]) 14:36, 25 July 2022 (UTC) |
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==Edit request== |
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{{edit semi-protected|answered=yes}} |
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{{noredirect|Юрий Ким}} ({{langx|ru|Yuri Kim}}; the recorded birth name in the article) redirects here. Please add a hatnote to handle the situation. |
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{{tlx|redirect|Юрий Ким|other people|Yuri Kim (disambiguation)}} |
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{{redirect|Юрий Ким|other people|Yuri Kim (disambiguation)}} |
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-- ] (]) 21:21, 7 June 2022 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> This is English Misplaced Pages not Russian Misplaced Pages, a redirect of Russian title to the English title is not a valid reason for such inclusion. '''<span style="color:#f535aa">—</span> ] <span style="color:#f535aa">(] • ])</span>''' 13:30, 10 June 2022 (UTC) |
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== Typo Fix == |
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In the section Ascension to Power, subheading Initial Career, the last sentence of the second paragraph has a typo. "...indicating that Kim Il-sung '''bight''' have already planned for Jong-il to succeed him as leader." ] (]) 21:21, 31 July 2022 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 11 October 2022 == |
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{{Edit semi-protected|Kim Jong-il|answered=yes}} |
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] (]) 10:29, 11 October 2022 (UTC) |
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Birth date |
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:] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a ] and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:ESp --> ]'''</span></sup>]] 10:38, 11 October 2022 (UTC) |
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== Eternal General Secretary vs. Eternal Chairman == |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 27 March 2019 == |
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{| class="wikitable" |
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! Eternal General Secretary |
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! Eternal Chairman |
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| Google search |
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{{Ping|TaerkastUA}} What settings are you using for your "cursory Google searches"? Mine return greater results for Eternal General Secretary each time. Even if you search the exact phrases "Eternal General Secretary Kim" and "Eternal Chairman Kim", you still get greater results for the former. </nowiki>.] |
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{{edit semi-protected|Kim Jong-il|answered=yes}} |
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I suggesting adding at the end of the 2nd Cult of Personality paragraph: |
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Eternal General Secretary is the more common posthumous title for Kim Jong-il because the General Secretary of the WPK was a more prominent position than the Chairman of the NDC. Eternal Chairman has always been a secondary title, like how Chairman of the NDC was a secondary title for Kim Jong-il during his lifetime. |
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"It also was reported by North Korean officials that Kim was one of the world's best golfers, reportedly shooting 38 under par and 11 holes in one during his first game of golf in 1994 when Kim was 52 years old. This claim has been widely disputed. source: http://www.espn.com/espn/page2/index/_/id/7369649 " ] (]) 18:54, 27 March 2019 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> The claim that North Korean state media reported that Kim was one of the worlds best golfers is mentioned--but not cited by--the Gallo source. Where Gallo heard this from is unknown. <span style="font-size:75%;border:2px solid red;border-radius:50px;font-color:#00008b">]</span> 13:34, 31 March 2019 (UTC) |
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::See . A North Korean golf pro told this to an Australian journalist, but it has never been part of official propaganda and was never repeated in the North Korean media.--] (]) 07:33, 1 April 2019 (UTC) |
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It's also worth noting that Google Search (i.e. just the general search engine) is a terrible measure because it includes self-published material (including social media), which often copies sites like Misplaced Pages without much thought. "Generalissimo Kim Jong-il" for example returns a significant number of results, but no reliable secondary sources use "Generalissimo" in this manner, nor do any official English sources from the DPRK. An editor on the English Misplaced Pages made the translation themselves and nobody questioned it for years, and now YouTube videos, blogs, and other social media parrot it even though it has never been reliably attributed. <big>]]</big> 00:12, 8 March 2023 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 4 April 2019 == |
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== Move discussion in progress == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Kim Jong-il|answered=yes}} |
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This is misleading information please change as follows and remove the link to University of Malta: Kim is also said to have received English language education in Malta in the early 1970s on his infrequent holidays there as a guest of Prime Minister Dom Mintoff. ] (]) 11:52, 4 April 2019 (UTC) |
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:{{Hidden ping|Mario Cassar1401}}The source mentions University of Malta. What do you feel is misleading about the statement? Please reopen this edit request if you have ] mentioning something else. – ''''']''''' ] 12:29, 4 April 2019 (UTC) |
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There is a move discussion in progress on ] which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. <!-- Talk:Kim Jong-un#Requested move 6 April 2023 crosspost --> —] 17:31, 6 April 2023 (UTC) |
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This source is not reliable. He was taught English in Malta by a University professor but had nothing to do with University of Malta. He was taught on a one to one basis and never got an accreditation from UM - See here - https://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20111220/local/The-Dear-Leader-s-secret-stay-in-Malta.399242 |
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taught by Professor Massa but not at the University Premises. Please remove any mention of University of Malta <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 13:05, 4 April 2019 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== Infobox Picture change? == |
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Further proof - Taught bu a University of Malta professor but no ties with the institution - https://www.nknews.org/2014/06/kim-jong-ils-unlikely-maltese-mentor-a-secret-military-agreement/ Please amend as this is very misleading |
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Should Jong-Il's picture in the infobox be changed to the posthumous portrait of him which was released after his death? ] (]) 13:02, 19 April 2023 (UTC) |
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{{edit semi-protected|Kim Jong-il|answered=yes}} |
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Please remove Kim Jong-il from the University of Malta alumnus category. This is not correct information. He never graduated from University of Malta ] (]) 12:56, 4 April 2019 (UTC) |
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:No, per ]. Kim's official posthumous portrait is an idealised, drawn picture of him. The current portrait of him in the infobox is an actual photograph taken of him while he was alive; as such a photo exists, there is no need to use a drawn picture. <big>]]</big> 21:14, 19 April 2023 (UTC) |
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:{{Hidden ping|Mario Cassar1401}} Thanks for noticing and thanks for the sources! I'll fix this immediately. – ''''']''''' ] 13:14, 4 April 2019 (UTC) |
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== Official titles == |
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== Yuri Irsenovich Kim == |
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This the claimed birth name of Kim Jong Il in Russia. Is there any evidence that was his actual birth name? ] (]) 13:23, 5 June 2023 (UTC) |
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What to do with the mostly unsourced "Official titles" section? It seems to mix actual political offices with epithets without any context. Both types of titles should be (and already are) discussed in prose. Those that are, are also rightly duplicated in the infobox and the succession boxes. I'd prefer if we removed the section and moved the link to ] to the "See also" section. Thoughts? <span style="font-family: serif; letter-spacing: 0.1em">– ]</span> (] ⋅ ]) 17:41, 31 July 2019 (UTC) |
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:Remove.--] (]) 20:21, 31 July 2019 (UTC) |
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:{{cquote|{{highlight|Is there any evidence}} that was his actual birth name?}} |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 6 January 2020 == |
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:Well, there's three sources cited for that claim. Maybe you can look at those first and critique them instead of asking a silly question? <big>]]</big> 23:01, 5 June 2023 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 24 February 2024 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Kim Jong-il|answered=yes}} |
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"Kim Jong-il recieved numerous titles during his rule." |
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{{edit semi-protected|Kim Jong Il|answered=yes}} |
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Change 'recieved' to 'received' ] (]) 20:16, 6 January 2020 (UTC) |
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Replace {{tl|family name hatnote}}, then place with {{tl|family name footnote}} in the lead sentence. ] (]) 12:29, 24 February 2024 (UTC) |
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: ] '''Done'''<!-- Template:ESp --> Thanks! ] (]) 20:24, 6 January 2020 (UTC) |
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: ] '''Not done for now:''' please establish a ] for this alteration ''']''' using the {{Tlx|Edit semi-protected}} template.<!-- Template:ESp --> I think it is better to have the visibility at the top of the article. ] (]) 02:55, 25 February 2024 (UTC) |
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== Koryo-saram? == |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 6 February 2020 == |
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Just realized; can he really be considered a ]? To my understanding, Koryo-saram aren't just Soviet Koreans (of which there are also ], who are often excluded from the Koryo-saram label), they're Koreans who were subjected to the ]. None of the Kim family was subject to this deportation. |
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{{edit semi-protected|Kim Jong-il|answered=yes}} |
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kim jong il is a north korean politician ] (]) 16:53, 6 February 2020 (UTC) |
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:If you're talking about the lead, I think the current one makes more sense when it says he was the leader of North Korea. If you're talking about categories, a few of them are ] of ] so that is covered as well. <span style="font-family: serif; letter-spacing: 0.1em">– ]</span> (] ⋅ ]) 18:29, 6 February 2020 (UTC) |
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Is there any reliable sources calling him as such? It doesn't appear that there's any on the article itself. I may just remove altogether for now; please revert and discuss if disagree. ] (]) 08:16, 2 April 2024 (UTC) |
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==Discussion on how to handle "eternal" office status in infoboxes== |
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] You are invited to join the discussion at ]. ] (]) 07:16, 29 February 2020 (UTC){{Z48}}<!-- ] --> |
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Does anyone see the inherent difficulty in colloquially referring to the subject as "Kim" when the article necessarily deals with two other principals who share the family name "Kim"? rowley (talk) 02:52, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
In the section Ascension to Power, subheading Initial Career, the last sentence of the second paragraph has a typo. "...indicating that Kim Il-sung bight have already planned for Jong-il to succeed him as leader." Alberto996 (talk) 21:21, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
Eternal General Secretary is the more common posthumous title for Kim Jong-il because the General Secretary of the WPK was a more prominent position than the Chairman of the NDC. Eternal Chairman has always been a secondary title, like how Chairman of the NDC was a secondary title for Kim Jong-il during his lifetime.
It's also worth noting that Google Search (i.e. just the general search engine) is a terrible measure because it includes self-published material (including social media), which often copies sites like Misplaced Pages without much thought. "Generalissimo Kim Jong-il" for example returns a significant number of results, but no reliable secondary sources use "Generalissimo" in this manner, nor do any official English sources from the DPRK. An editor on the English Misplaced Pages made the translation themselves and nobody questioned it for years, and now YouTube videos, blogs, and other social media parrot it even though it has never been reliably attributed. Yue🌙 00:12, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
Is there any reliable sources calling him as such? It doesn't appear that there's any on the article itself. I may just remove altogether for now; please revert and discuss if disagree. toobigtokale (talk) 08:16, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
Referencing and citation: criterion not met
Coverage and accuracy: criterion met
.svg){kind=small}
Not done: This is English Misplaced Pages not Russian Misplaced Pages, a redirect of Russian title to the English title is not a valid reason for such inclusion. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 13:30, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Terasail 10:38, 11 October 2022 (UTC)