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| == Cross-wiki harassment and transphobia from ] == | |||
| ], a known transphobic editor from pt.wiki, is after his actions led me to leave that wiki permanently. He has also harassed me on Wikimedia Commons. I don't know what to do anymore. I just want to edit about transgender topics in peace. This is severely impacting my mental health. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :You don't seem to have notified the other editor. This is mandatory and this section may be closed if you fail to do so. Use <nowiki>{{subst:ANI-notice}}~~~~</nowiki> on that user's talk page. Additionally, you don't seem to have provided specific diffs demonstrating harassment. Please do so. --] (]) 13:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::On pt.wiki, DarwIn proposed the deletion of articles I created about transgender topics ( and ), using transphobic arguments, including misgendering and questioning the validity of transgender children. After translating these articles to en.wiki, he is , again focusing on his personal transphobic beliefs - as it shows, he doesn't even know how DYK works. He insisted multiple times trying to include his transphobic comment on that page and has just edited it again. On Commons, for extra context, DarwIn unilaterally deleted images related to these articles, despite being clearly involved in the dispute. | |||
| ::Again, I just want to collaborate with trans topics in peace. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::We can't help you with pt.wikipedia.org or with commons, only with en.wikipedia.org. Please provide specific diffs for en.wikipedia.org. --] (]) 13:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Yes. However, context is important. This is harassment that began on pt.wiki, has spread to Commons, and is now here. The history has been provided, but, sure, I can provide the diffs instead. He has unilaterally and , despite this being not how DYK works. This is because he really doesn't know, as he only sporadically edits here and only came back to harass me. is explicitly transphobic and doesn't focus on the article itself at all. After his comment was reverted by me, saying that I shouldn't call it transphobia, despite it being transphobia. After being reverted again, . I asked him to , but . | |||
| ::::I just don't want to be targeted by that editor here. I've left pt.wiki in great part for that reason. I just want to edit about transgender topics in peace here. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :Looks like yet another cross-wiki troll by this user. Already , the account is now promoting their POV here, including spreading lies, hideous slurs and baseless accusations against me like "known transphobic", after two of their creations were taken to community evaluation at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for lacking notability. The user is also a known sockpuppeter, at the Portuguese Wikipédia. In any case, I'm not interested in pursuing this case in yet another project apart from the strictly needed, so do as you please.] ] 13:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::I have been blocked on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for contesting that transphobia was called "valid criticism" on ANI and on Commons for literally nothing. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:28, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Questioning a women that declared her 4 year old son as trangender after he refused to play with cars and Marvel puppets and preferred what his mother calls "girl stuff" doesn't fit in any reasonable definition of transphobia, a word which whenever anyone criticizes you at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages and elsewhere. In any case, I don't think this is the place for this discussion, so this will be my last direct answer to you you'll see in this board. ] ] 13:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::And here's explicit transphobia. It's her '''daughter''', no matter how much you hate the idea of trans children existing. The story you've told is also completely distorted. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' I simply don't want this editor targeting me with transphobic stuff here after he target me on pt.wiki (and left it permanently in great part for that reason) and Commons. I am considering taking medication because of these events. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:45, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
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| *:*'''Comment''' I would suggest Darwin review ]. If the child uses she/her pronouns we should not be referring to her with he/him pronouns. ] (]) 15:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| <!-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ --> | |||
| *:*:@] I would suggest you to recall we ate talking about a 4 year child whose social gender was chosen by their mother after the child refused to play with what she calls "boy toys", such as toy cars and Marvel puppets. If that's not enough that this kind of gender prejudice was already abhorrent and condemned even in the generation of my babyboomer parents, one of the first things we teached as LGBT activists in the 1990s was that our parents don't own us nor our sexuality or our gender. So please let's refrain from doing that kind of suggestions when what is in question is the gender identity of a 4 year old attributed by their mother. Ok? ] ] 15:29, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| <!-- New entries go down at the *BOTTOM* of the page, not here. --> | |||
| *:*::@], the bottom line is that ''you don't get to question that.'' As a complete stranger to that child you have no right to do so, plus this is '''not''' the place to even enter into that discussion. How does complete strangers on the internet talking about a child's gender do them ''any'' good? This isn't the place anyway so please just follow guidelines, which have been put in place for a good reason. ] (]) 15:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| <!-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ --> | |||
| *:*:::I questioned the mother, not the child. I've no idea why we are discussing this here, anyway. ] ] 15:42, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::We're here because this "questioning" appears to be bleeding into transphobic harassment. I would support an indef based on edits like this ] (]) 15:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:The story told above is completely distorted to fit the transphobic's narrative. Simon223, if you want to get the full story, read ]' page or read its sources (with the help of a translator if needed). <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 15:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::I would like to suggest we follow MOS regardless of people's personal opinion of early childhood gender expression. ] (]) 15:38, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::Rephrase that as mothers opinions on their 4 year old baby gender expression. ] ] 15:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::Darwin - I suggest you drop whatever agenda you have, treat other editors with respect, and comply with our MOS (including ]) - otherwise you will be blocked. ]] 15:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::Sure, if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so. ] ] 16:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::Just so everyone knows, the facts are being quite distorted here. It wasn't really an imposition — her daughter, did not want to play with "boy toys", even when being forced by her mom. That's why the mom said she plays with "girl toys" and everything else. The references on said articles weren't thoroughly read, apparently by everybody here. | |||
| *:*::::::Adding to this too: DarwIn, in some edits to the article in the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, added "quotes" on the word trans and some other parts of the articly, as if was his duty to judge if the girl is trans or not. Anyways, I think what happened in ptwiki stays there. | |||
| *:*::::::And I want to make clear that I'm only stating the things that happened so everyone knows. I do not support blocking him. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 16:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::Four year olds are generally not considered babies. You really need to drop this - and probably to avoid editing in the ] area.] (]) 16:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::I would suggest a '''topic ban''' is imposed. ]] 16:09, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::I would '''support''' a topic ban from ]. ] (]) 16:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::Given that much of what they've been saying is about living people I think we would need to expand this to at least cover all other BLPs until such a time as they have demonstrated that they actually understand that the BLP policy applies to non-article spaces on wiki as well as articles. Overall this seems more like NOTHERE than something which a topic ban can remedy. ] (]) 16:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::::Topic ban from GENSEX and BLP, broadly construed, is fine for me. ]] 16:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::::I do understand this Misplaced Pages rules on BLP. Isn't that not enough for you? ] ] 16:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::::Given your comments here and at DYK, you clearly do not. ]] 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::::::You seem to have missed the part when I very clearly stated there that I retired myself from that DYN debate. ] ] 16:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::@] nice try, but I don't edit on that topic, anyway. Let's calm down and enjoy the Christmas season. ] ] 16:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::This is the opposite of the attitude you need to adopt if you want to remain an editor in good standing. Remeber if you didn't edit on that topic we wouldn't be having this discussion, we're here because of edits you made in that topic area. ] (]) 16:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::::Then get your facts right, as I never edited any biography on that topic here, at least that I can recall. ] ] 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::::You fundementally misunderstand the scope of ] and the concept of topic area as well. ] (]) 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::::::Look, I'm at a family gathering and I really have nor time nor patience for this kind of endless debates, specially on culture wars topics. I've already retired from DYN yesterday but you seem to insist on pursuing this kind of Salem witch hunting here, but really, I'll not be anymore part of that. Roger and over, happy new year. ] ] 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::::::I think you may be getting different editors confused, I was not a participant at DYN. I did not pursue you to here. ] (]) 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::::::::it was a collective you. ] ] 16:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::::::::The collective you did not pursue you here either. Only the OP appears to cross over. ] (]) 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::I noticed this yesterday but intentionally didn't mention it since I felt there had already been enough nonsense. But since DarwIn is still defending their offensive comments below, I'd note that the child was 4 years old in 2019. It's now 2024 and they've evidentally seen a medical professional. If at any time they express a desire for a different gender identity we will of course respect that whatever her mother says; but at this time BLP full supports respecting a 8-9 year old and not treating her as a baby. ] (]) 22:49, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::None of this is relevant. We follow sources and ]. There is obviously no Misplaced Pages position on when someone is or is not a "baby" and should have their self-identification reproduced in their biography. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 12:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :They cannot be trusted. Above they said "I'm retiring myself from this topic" and yet has continued to post. ]] 16:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::I've continued to post where? ] ] 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :I've already walked away from it yesterday, why you're insisting on that lie? ] ] 16:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::You are continuing to post here, ergo you have not "walked away" from it, have you? ]] 16:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::@] The issue here is not whether you are right or wrong. The issue here is that you are violating a community guideline. That's it. Either you stop or you will end up getting blocked. I have ], and as a consequence I simply stay far away from those articles or discussions. You should too. -] (]) 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::How can I get out of this endless cycle, if each time you ask me to stop and I say I already stopped yesterday, you came back chastising me for having answered again? That's not fair. ] ] 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Simply post a note at the bottom of the discussion stating that given your respectful disagreement with parts of MOS:GENDERID that you will voluntarily avoid any articles or discussions where that is, or may become, an issue. -] (]) 16:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Which discussion are you talking about? Now I'm confused. Can't you be more clear? ] ] 16:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::@] This one. -] (]) 17:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::@] I've already done it, but you keep writing below it, so it's not in the bottom anymore. ] ] 17:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::@] Easiest way to defuse this is to post a '''bolded''' and outdented statement at the very bottom of the this discussion stating you understand MOSGENDERID and will avoid pages or discussions where it may become an issue, and that you will avoid as far as possible, interacting with Skyshifter. If there are other issues here, I have no comment on those. -] (]) 17:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Sure, here it goes again: "if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so" ] ] 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::That is not an appropriate statement, it has your bias/agenda throughout it. Very concerning. ]] 18:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * Heres the main point I can see RE "Cross-wiki harassment." If DarwIn claims they do not regularly edit this topic space and had not previously participated in DYK discussions how did they come to find themselves there just in time to oppose the contribution of an editor they had extensive negative interactions with on another wiki? ] (]) 16:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:that's old stuff, I already posted a note there retiring from that space yesterday. I'm really puzzled on what all this fuss is about. ] ] 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::This isn't about the transphobia, this is about the harassment (they are seperate by apparently related claims). So how did you find yourself commenting on that DYK? ] (]) 16:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I expressed my disagreement with that note, justifying with my opinion, and there's not even any misgendering issue there, AFAIK. Not sure if expressing that opinion here is forbidden or not, but in any case I've posted a note retiring from it already yesterday, so I've no idea what more do you want. ] ] 16:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::And how did you become aware that there was something to disagree with? ] (]) 16:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::precisely because we are currently in the process of evaluating the notability of that bio and association she created at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, so it's just natural that related issues on other wikis get monitored too, that's part of the process. You don't agree with that evaluation, and that's perfectly OK. To each Misplaced Pages their own stuff 🤷 ] ] 16:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::Please link the diff from portuguese wiki where the DYK for this wiki came up. ] (]) 16:59, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::it's the wikipedia articles created yesterday that we are evaluating, not any kind of DYK note. ] ] 17:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::How is this a related issue then? It sure looks like you followed this particular user around ] (]) 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::@] no, I followed the articles, as they were also created here yesterday. Is that so hard to understand? ] ] 17:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::Because of edits like this . ] (]) 17:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::answering an accusation of being a dictator after flushing away the copyviios she uploaded. What's the problem? ] ] 17:19, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::No, that diff is the undo. Thats you edit warring apparent harassment onto someone's talk page on another wiki with a kissing face as the edit summary... In that context this does look like cross wiki harassment. Do you have a better explanation? ] (]) 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::::Just answered the troll there with another, as I was on the middle of something else. Yes, I know, not the nicest thing to do, but whatever. And why are we discussing Commons here now, anyway? ] ] 17:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::::We're discussing cross wiki harassment, that makes edits on any wiki relevant to the discussion. You appear to have been harassing them on commons and then followed them here to continue the harassment because a temporary block there (which you appear to have had a hand in) prevented them from being active there. You absolutely can not do that. ] (]) 17:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::::::I ''answered'' a troll, if there was any harassment was from that account towards me, not the opposite. Please don't invert the situation. ] ] 17:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::::::Your edits on enwiki had nothing to do with trolling or other behavioral issues from that account, if your edits on enwiki were to address valid concerns informed by your experience on other wikis we would not be having this discussion. It was also you restoring your comment which they removed from their talk page, thats you trolling them and it makes their dictator claim look not like trolling but rather accurate. ] (]) 17:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::::::::I confess I've no idea why we are still having this discussion, as they were just that. But for the 50th time, these interactions have stopped long ago, and for a similar amount of time I've devotedly accepted and committed to all your rules. ] ] 18:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::::::::In my opinion we're still having this discussion because you are stonewalling, perhaps its a language barrier but you don't come off as trustworthy or engaging in good faith. ] (]) 18:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :Honestly, this is an interesting idea but I think this needs to become an Arbitration Committee issue. The community is so heavily divided on this, it’s actually ridiculous. This whole situation just is bonkers. Like why is this at ANI anymore. ] (]) 00:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ==Rogue reverter, won't listen or respond== | |||
| ::By an interesting idea I meant my idea of it becoming an arbitration committee issue is an interesting proposal. ] (]) 00:23, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| At the recommendation of admin ], I'm asking on behalf of ], ], other editors and myself who have tried many times and ways to talk and work with a persistent rogue editor, ], over his repeated wholesale reversions to several sites in ]. He insists he doesn't have to follow the comics ], he reinserts misspellings and other erroneous edits, he removes authoritative reference sources that I and others have used and cited, and he won't give straight answers to our questions and comments. | |||
| I believe it may help too, if Darwin will promise to avoid interacting on main space with Skyshifter. ] (]) 17:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| There's some discussion about all this at ]. There ''had'' been much more criticism of his edits at ] — with other editors complaining about his clumsy wholesale edits of ] and other articles — ''but he erases all comments.'' | |||
| :Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. Not that I ever interacted with her there AFAIK, anyway.] ] 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Could you suggest a way to go on this? Maybe have a third party compare, for instance, the properly formatted and written version of the short "Awesome Android" article and Asgardian's consistently reverted, "nyah-nyah-nyah" version . Just by skimming, not needing to know details of the character, the differences are obvious to the naked eye. | |||
| :I think Darwin should avoid interacting with Skyshifter on all spaces on en.wikipedia.org. It's clear Darwin has made Skyshifter feel uncomfortable, and I don't appreciate it.]] 17:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::@] I absolutely agree with that, I'm not doing any sort of interaction with that account anymore. I'm still answering here because you keep mentioning me. ] ] 17:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Since you "absolutely agree", then I will take your comment here as acknowledging a voluntary ], broadly construed, as in effect.]] 18:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::@] yes, that's correct. ] ] 18:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * I think a one-way interaction ban between the editors would be for the best here. While I think there is some merit to a Gender and Sexuality tban, as some of Darwin's recent edits appear to be about ] in the topic area, I believe the interaction ban would solve most of the issues raised here. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 17:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:which "edits"? The 1 or 2 comments in the DYK section? ] ] 18:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::All your edits related to the subject, both here and on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 18:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::@] You're evaluating my edits on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages to punish me ''in the English Misplaced Pages?'' ] ] 19:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::When there is cross-wiki harassment, then yes, your activity on other wikis is relevant. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::@] Can you explain how my general edit history in wiki.pt is relevant in any way to an accusation of cross-wiki harassment? ] ] 23:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Would recommend that Darwin ''walk away'' from the general topic. This would avoid any need for topic bans. ] (]) 16:20, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| As you can see from these comments he erased from his talk page and retrieved from its History , , and , other editors have tried to speak with him about his wholesale reversions that go against both consensus and editorial policy/guidelines/exemplar. The word "stubborn" comes up a lot in these posts. Several editors are at their wits' ends. | |||
| ;Clarification | |||
| What can we do? Please help us: Dealing with him is taking up so much of so many people's times that could be put to good use writing and helping to improve Misplaced Pages articles. Thank you so much for any help. --] 17:55, 10 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *Hello @] - and others. Please recall that my opinion was specifically over the declaration of the child gender by her mother at or before her 4th birthday, by her mother own account based on classical gender stereotypes. It's specifically about that. I've no way to know what gender the child is or will eventually be in the future, and gladly accept whatever she chooses - as I would if she was my own child. I've eventually been harsher than needed in the DYK comment because that specific situation where a minor is extensively exposed with full name, photographs, etc. by her parents on social networks, newspapers and whatelse is generally condemned in ], to the point of eventually here. Obviously Misplaced Pages has nothing to do with that when it comes to the spread of information, but in my view - obviously wrong, from the general reaction here - exposing the child in yet another place, let alone wiki.en main page, was a bit too much. | |||
| *As for misgendering, I am one of the founders and former board member of ], which after 30 years still is the main LGBT association in Portugal, though not an active member for many years for moving away from Lisbon, where it's headquartered. For more than 30 years I've been on the fight against homophobia and transphobia, not specially in Misplaced Pages, but on the streets, where it was needed in the 1990s here in Portugal, when the whole LGBT thing was just starting and most people couldn't even tell the difference between a drag queen and a trangender woman. I was beaten up, lost my 2 front teeth on homo/transphobic street fights (the first one at 18 years old, for publicly defending from booers in the audience a trangender girl which was acting at a local bar )- and whatelse. I never had even the least impulse to misgender any of the many trangender people that always have been around me, and the few situations where that may have happened were online with people that I knew for years as being one gender, and took a while to sink they are another, because online there's not the ever helping visual clue. So it's kind of disheartening to be treated like this in a strange place by people I don't know just because I expressed an (harsh, agreed) opinion defending the age of consent for children, and condemning their parents interference on that. | |||
| *The TBan is not very relevant for me, as I seldom edit here and despite the activism of my past days LGBT is not my primary interest on Misplaced Pages, but I'm considerably saddened by the misunderstandings, bad faith assumptions, false accusations that have been told here about me, though eventually the flaw is not in the whole group that has their own rules and culture, but in the newcomer which don't understand it well in all its nuances, as was my case here. | |||
| *Finally, as the misunderstandings continue, I never came here after Skyshifter, which as is public and she knows, I've always considered a good editor and helped several times with articles and what else (which is also why I felt confident to answer with a 😘 when she called me a dictator in another project, though it was obviously not the most appropriate way to answer it, and for which I apologize to Skyshifter). In this last row I wasn't even directly involved in her indefinite block in wiki.pt, despite being mentioned there. I didn't even touched the articles she created here on ] and ] or addressed she here in any way. I came here because of the DYK note, which, as said above, I thought was an exaggerated exposition for that case here on the English Misplaced Pages. As you extensively demonstrated here, it is not, and I defer to your appreciation. Despite that, after this whole situation I've not the least interest on interacting in any possible way with Skyshifter, with or without IBan. | |||
| *And that's it. Hopefully you'll excuse my verbosity, specially in such a festive day, but I felt this last clarification was needed. I also present my apologies to all those who may have felt offended by an eventual appearance of cockiness or defiance which I inadvertently sometimes transmit in my speech. I'll return here if specifically asked to, otherwise I'll leave the debate for this community. Again, stay well, and have an happy new year. ] ] 17:58, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ===Proposed Community Sanctions=== | |||
| :Sometimes he responds. It's sporadic. Sometimes he takes a lesson to heart when it's explained in great detail. Sometimes. And sometimes he just repeatedly blows off style guidelines no matter how many people disagree with him. I first got drawn into his mess because someone else in WikiProject Comics begged for people to come take a peek and try to help find a way to resolve Asgardian's relentless edit wars over the Thor articles. At that point, he'd only been at it for a month. I think it's been three months now, fighting the same edit wars. See how he stubbornly insists on reverting ] to tightly in-universe perspective. One night I spent hours trying to edit his version bit by bit to give him a chance, then he just redid all the same mistakes and guideline violations. It wears you out. So many of us got so tired so long ago of fixing his edits that we just can't devote the energy to selectively keeping his good edits when he makes so many bad ones, therefore a lot of people have to revert articles even when it means reinserting some problems he'd fixed because he did more damage than good. Several of us repeatedly advised him to make one edit at a time so he could learn from each. It's just bizarre. There are now at least two competing versions getting edited, bouncing back and forth for almost every article he keeps hitting. He has some good information. He makes some good edits. He's just so amazingly stubborn. | |||
| I offered DarwIn an off ramp above and their response was to reiterate their views on a highly controversial subject and their responses to concerns about their interactions with Skyshifter have been entirely unsatisfactory. This looks a like a pretty clear case of IDHT revolving around their strong disagreement with one of our guidelines. Frankly, I came very close to just blocking them after their response to my suggestion. This discussion has already dragged on long enough. For purposes of clarity, nobody is required to agree with all of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. And yes, gender is a highly controversial subject. I have my own disagreements with parts of MOS:GENDERID. But as the old saying goes, themz the rules until they aint. Editors are free to disagree with community P&G, but are not free to ignore or flout them. It's time to settle this. | |||
| '''Proposed''' DarwIn is topic banned from all pages and discussions relating to ] broadly construed and is subject to a one way IBan with user Skyshifter, also broadly construed. -] (]) 18:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :He got warned about 3RR. He got blocked for violating 3RR. I saw other times I could have reported him for violating 3RR after that, but chose not to because I really was trying to find a way to work with this intelligent, knowledgeable person despite how aggravating it could be. He deleted WikiProject Comics notices about his edit wars until I warned him very strongly that to do so was deceptive when he knew darn well that edit wars were going on. Lately he hasn't been as overtly contentious. Lately he simply hasn't been replying to people as often. Admittedly, a lot of us have given up on explaining all of our fixes to his edits when we've already offered the same explanations repeatedly. I still think there's hope for him. I really do, based on the times he has learned lessons, but after this much time, I question whether he's worth the effort because he creates so much work for so many people voluntarily helping edit Misplaced Pages articles. ] 02:52, 11 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' -] (]) 18:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :Summary: | |||
| *:I note that Darwin has agreed above to the IBan. -] (]) 18:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :*He is willfully lowering the quality of Misplaced Pages articles. | |||
| *'''Oppose''' - He's already agreed to avoid that general topic area in future & Skyshifter. ''PS'' - If a t-ban is imposed? limit it to six-months. ] (]) 18:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :*He is fully aware that his edits are contrary to various policies and guidelines. | |||
| *:Why should the community accept voluntary TBAN and IBAN which can easily be reneged on when we can impose it as a community sanction and ensure that any violation is actionable? '']''<sup>]</sup> 01:08, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*He isn't responding (well, severely unresponsive) to light methods of behavior correction. | |||
| *'''Support topic ban and IBAN''', both broadly construed - sorry GoodDay but I do not trust this user's words, and so we need a proper sanction. ]] 18:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :He's doing no good and shows an obvious disinterest in collaborative efforts. Block him for a month; hopefully that will make him realize that, hey, we're here to ''improve'' articles ''together'', not single-handedly make them shit. ] <span style="color: #999;">// ] // ] //</span> 20:07, 11 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. Just read through the above and ''good grief''. - ] <sub>]</sub> 18:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *I said above I would support this proposal if it was brought forward, and I do. ] (]) 18:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :Why it should be a one-way iban? Skyshifter started this topic with the characterization of their opponent as "a known transphobic editor". A normal editor would be blocked just for writing this. I am not sure a iban is needed, but if it is needed it must be mutual. ] (]) 18:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::I stumbled across this user's edit war with Covenant D over the ''Thor'' comics articles about two months ago. Sadly, since that time, I have seen little progress, only regression. The edit war still continues and has expanded to other comics articles. I reported the disputed articles on the WikiComics Project notice board in order to get more people involved and, ideally, settle the dispute. However, rather than trying to work toward consensus, he erased my notice. I know that we have to assume good faith, but actions like this strain credulity. Nonetheless, I have tried to work out compromises by changing problem sections within disputed articles in a piecemeal fashion, rather than a wholesale reversion. Initially, this seemed to be effective, but things eventually degenerated back into blind edit warring with little to no discussion. Occasionally, he will justify his edits on an article's talk page, but he is more likely to ignore or erase requests for discussion. When he does comment on talk pages, he is frequently incivil and more than a little combative. Sadly, he actually makes some valid points in his arguements, but they are all but lost in the edit wars he provokes. Like Doczilla, I, too, had hope for Asgardian. But that hope is fading. --] 08:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::That's actually a fair point. -] (]) 19:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::It would be more compelling if DarwIn weren't so committed to misgendering a child out of some apparent ] impulse. ] (]) 19:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::@] You have been misjudging me - It was , actually, if it's worth anything. ] ] 19:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::The child, according to the reliable sources I have seen, uses she/her pronouns. Your changing your comments from he/him to they/them does not bring even that one comment in line with our MOS. I am not interested in whether you, in your heart of hearts, are a transphobe. I am concerned that your editing in the ] area is disruptive in a way that will likely make trans editors less comfortable working in the en.wiki project. As a result I think you should avoid editing in that topic area. Furthermore I think you should leave Skyshifter alone as you have not provided a satisfactory explanation for your participation in the DYK thread. ] (]) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::@] OK, I didn't knew the child used those pronouns when she was 4 years old, I commit to use them here if I would ever talk about that issue again (which I definitely will not, anyway). ] ] 20:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::If they weren't before they are now... ] (]) 18:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Ok, to be clear, I '''oppose''' a one-way IB. I do not find this argument convincing. ] (]) 19:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::I agree. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 12:46, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support''' this seems like a reasonable set of restrictions, I hope they can stick to it ] (]) 18:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:@] I never edited in that topic here, as far as I can remember, not is it a primary interest I have, so it certainly will not be difficult to hold, even if it comes out to me as incredibly unbased and unfair. ] ] 19:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::Your edits to DYK were within that topic area. ] (]) 19:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::@] And those were the only ones, and I immediately after being reverted. How does that configure the kind of systematic behaviour that would justify a topic ban? I really apologize, but in this moment the way I see this is a kind of Salem witch hunt, with people accusing me of all kind of slurs and abominations, even when they are in directly opposition to . You seem to be punishing me for my opinions and the way I (supposedly) think about a very particular issue (if 4 years old have self determination or not), which comes out to me as really unfair and unworthy of a project like this. ] ] 20:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::How is that in direct opposition to your stance there? Your edit summary says "forgot that English has the neutral pronoun, which is useful in these cases. fixed." which suggests that it is in line with that stance ] (]) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::@] I'm sorry, I seem to have missed your point. What is wrong with correcting the gender to a neutral pronoun in such a situation? ] ] 20:13, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::This edit might help you get the point. At this point your conduct on this page is becoming a serious behavioral issue... you can't lie, sealion, obfuscate, and misdirect endlessly without consequences. ] (]) 20:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::@] I can fix those too as I did yesterday, if you think it's important 🤷🏽♂️ ] ] 20:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::You are not supposed to edit comments after they have been responded to in that way. But by fix do you mean change to "she" or do you mean change to "they"? ] (]) 20:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::@] Change to "she", following this wikipedia rules, certainly. So if I can't fix them, what do you propose instead to mend it? ] ] 20:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::Given the sheer quantity of lies and obfuscations from you (the truth is apparently a last resort) the only fix I can see is a formal one, a topic ban and an interaction ban. Up above you so easily went from "I never edited in the topic area" to "those were the only ones" that I don't even think you understand that you were caught in a blatant lie. ] (]) 20:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::@] There was not any "lie", please stop ]. I thought you were referring to the main space only, which I believe is a fairly assumption to do, if the used word is "editing". ] ] 20:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::At best you're saying that you lack the competence on enwiki to adhere to any voluntary restrictions. This will be my last comment unless pinged by an editor other than you, my apologies that this has been an unpleasant process for you. ] (]) 20:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::Darwin has a long history of editing in ] albeit generally less controversially. . ] (]) 20:35, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::@] That's documented with the sources and all, and the proposition there was that the tupinambá was gay, not a woman. It's not even gender related. So you desperatly want something to justify a TB, bring it on. I'm fed up with what seems to be a circular and nonsense discussion on this board, where whatever I say is a lie and with bad intentions. I don't even edit here in the gender topic, but if it makes you happy, bring it on. ] ] 20:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::::DarwIn ] covers gender ''and'' sexuality. You have been saying you aren't interested in the topic area. It appears to be one of your main areas of interest on en.wiki. ] (]) 20:43, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::::@] Thanks for clarifying that. Fact is that I don't edit much here. I've occasionally added or fixed some LGBT related stuff in the past when it crossed my main interest, History, but it certainly is not a primary interest, despite being LGBT myself. ] ] 20:49, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per Bushranger. ] ] 20:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. As GoodDay noted, the problem appears to already be addressed. If the problem persists then go for a sanction. Look we let people argue their point here and it does seem like most of the support is because editors feel Darwin isn't contrite enough, not that they expect the issue to continue. Note that I'm not weighing in on any interaction bans. ] (]) 20:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Oppose''' per Springee. This entire issue could have been dropped days ago when DarwIn acknowledged he would walk away, and instead seems to have been needlessly escalated again and again and again. ] ] 20:51, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{Ping|Pppery}} days ago? I think you might have misread the time stamps. ] (]) 00:57, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' the TBAN; personally I'd have indeffed several outdents sooner, but here we are. No opinion on the IBAN. ]] <small><sup>Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!</sup></small> 23:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' Given what's happened, I think an enforceable topic ban is better than Darwin stepping away. IMO the BLP issues is far more concerning than gensex one so I'd support a BLP topic ban as well, but it seems likely a gensex one would be enough to stop Darwin feeling the continued need to express their opinions on a living person. Since Darwin is going to step away anyway and barely edits en, it should be a moot point and if it's not that's why it's enforceable. As for the iban, while I don't think Skyshifter should have described Darwin in that way when opening this thread, I think we can accept it as a one time mistake under the stress of apparently being followed and given questionable way Darwin ended up in a dispute here with someone they'd had problems with elsewhere I think a one-way iban is justified. ] (]) 23:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:@] What " continued need to express their opinions on a living person"? My single-1-single comment in the DYK? ] ] 23:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::{{replyto|DarwIn}} Demonstrating the problem. You claim you only did it once elsewhere but anyone reading this thread can see you did it here so many times ], ], ], ], ], ]. I think it represents maybe 1/3 of your comments here (whether counting comments or text). There is absolutely no reason for you to go around expressing your opinions on two different living persons to say you're going to walk away. And if you need to express your opinion on living persons to defend your actions, you clearly have no defence. ] (]) 00:22, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::So let's get this straight. You are proposing a topic ban on me because of the personal opinions on (the eventual lack of) selfdetermination of 4 year old children that I expressed here in this board, despite that my editions related to it were limited to a 1-single-1 comment on that issue on the DYK page? This is really looking like ]. I tell you, my personal positions are my personal positions, and I'll not change them to please you, even if if costs me a Topic Ban for barely mentioned them on this project a single time before this topic was opened here.] ] 00:28, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::Holding an opinion ≠ expressing an opinion. Only one of these is causing an issue. ] (]) 00:44, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::I expressed it only 1-one-1 time here almost 1 day before being recalled here to explain it, and after voluntarily saying in the same page that I would not express it again there. Now I'm being punished for explaining it here too, after being requested to do that? This is insufferable. ] ] 00:55, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::], I think at this point, further comments from you will not be helping your case. If this is insufferable (and being summoned to ANI generally is), it might help to step back from this discussion and only respond if editors ask you specific questions. When discussions get this long, often the small benefit from continuing to comment does not outweigh the cost of continued misunderstanding among editors. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> | |||
| *:::::::{{Ping|Liz}} Thank you for the wise advice, I'll be doing that.] ] 03:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::{{reply|DarwIn}} you can think whatever you like about living persons. I have a lot of views on living persons which I would never, ever express on wiki for various reasons including BLP. Also you defence is bullshit. No one ever asked you to make accusations around living persons to defend your actions. And yes it is fairly normal that editors may be sanctioned if they feel they need to do such things about living persons on ANI as part of some silly argument or defence. I recall an editor who was temporarily blocked after they felt the need to say two very very famous extremely public figure living persons (and some non living) were sex predators to prove some point at ANI. And I'm fairly sure a lot of people have said and feel those people are sex predators including some Wikipedians I'd even probably agree in at least one case, they just understand it's not something they should be expressing here. ] (]) 23:02, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::For clarity, what I mean by my last sentence is that I'm sure quite a few people would agree with the statements. I'm sure such statements have been made elsewhere probably even in opinions printed in reliable sources (I think the editor did link to some such opinions). I'm sure even quite a few Wikipedians would agree that one or more of these people are sex predators, I think I'd even agree with it in at least one case. However most of us understand that our personal views of living persons, especially highly negatives views are generally not something to be expressed on wiki except when for some reason it's important enough to the discussion that it's reasonable to say it. When you keep saying something and in the same paragraph acknowledge the English wikipedia doesn't consider your opinion relevant, then it's clear there was no reason for you to say it. You're still free to believe it just as I'm still free to believe all those things about living persons that I would never express on wiki. ] (]) 06:08, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :* '''Support''' - Darwin's replies and conduct here indicates that he simply doesn't get it. | |||
| :]] 02:52, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :* '''Oppose''' - Per GoodDay and Springee. ] (]) 05:47, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support''' TBAN per Bushranger. Darwin has already agreed to the 1-way IBAN — <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">]</span> <small>(he/him; ])</small></span> 10:56, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Given the history at pt.wiki, I think this is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. There should be no interaction between the parties, which Darwin has agreed to.] (]) 14:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' The agreed-upon IBAN takes care of the ongoing issue. While the edits related to the child were problematic, this doesn't appear to be case of significantly wider problems in this topic area, and the full scope of ] may very well be surprising to editors who don't do much in that area. I don't think there's been near enough here to no longer ]. ] (]) 15:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * <s>'''Support''' TBAN/IBAN</s> '''Weak support TBAN/Strong support IBAN''' - ] suggests that queerphobia is inherently disruptive. calling a queer activist a "troglodyte", the previous history of abuse on pt.wikipedia, and the current responses from Darwin indicate ] behavior. ] (]) 16:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * The posters here assume a great deal and present a fairly weak case. On behaviour, their own has been self-righteous and condescending on more than one occasion. Citing users such as CovenantD is also not a good idea given his track record and some of the comments he has made (such as "as long as that silly list appears, it gets reverted"). As for deleting comments on my user page, what of it? At least two of the persons cited do it all the time - as is their right. As for the argument that I am lowering the quality of the articles - I believe that's a very silly thing to say. They both know I have '''created''' over half a dozen sourced entries on characters that did not exist. Not for my benefit, but for the everyone's use and enjoyment. I have also added references and tidied up many, many more. They KNOW some of the entries were a mess prior to the fix. Rather, we are tussling over fine grammatical points, NOT revised articles per se (example - much of the Thor article is my version). | |||
| ::This reasoning looks like a case of punishing somebody for political and cultural views rather than behaviour.] (]) 16:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Followung editors from wiki to wiki because of transphobic beliefs is disruptive, and creepy. A boy named sue is a transphobic song by the way. ] (]) 17:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Oh dear. Do you think I should have a siteban, or would a TBAN suffice?--] (]) 18:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::If I was named after a joke about misgendering people, I'd avoid defending crosswiki culture warriors worried about misgendering people. You may just really be into Shel Silverstein. ] (]) 19:26, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::"A Boy Named Sue", made famous by Johnny Cash sixty years ago , is a transphobic "joke about misgendering people"??? Oh my god, some people need to get out in the real world more. ]] 23:58, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Thank you for your valuable input. As always, you have advanced the conversation in a helpful way EEng. ] (]) 00:05, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::No need to thank me. It's just part of the service. ]] 01:19, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::OK boomer. ] (]) 01:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::Well, you certainly put me in my place with that one. ]] 21:14, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I understand. Speaking up for the witch is a sign I too might be a witch. I'll try to be more careful in future.] (]) 20:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Misgendering BLPs is disruptive. A Johnny Cash related username is not. Suggest the IP ] - while we may disagree with Boynamedsue regarding their interpretation here they have done nothing wrong. ] (]) 21:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::No. It's stopping a disruptive editor from continuing to edit disruptively. ] (]) 17:17, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{ec}} NQP is an essay. Essentially it's an op-ed piece. It does not carry any force in the realm of ], and the views expressed there are controversial. (See the essay's talk page.). IMO words with some variation on "phobe/phobic" &c. are being routinely weaponized by people on one side of hot button cultural/political debates as part of an effort to demonize those on the other side of these debates. As such, I am inclined to view the use of such terms as a specie of WP:NPA. -] (]) 16:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::fair enough, i'll remove my vote for TBAN. | |||
| :::sidenote, I have no qualms with labeling a behavior as queerphobia. I don't think calling out discrimination or disruptive attitudes is inherently a vio of NPA. ] (]) 16:53, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::... I am indecisive.. I'll add weak support for TBAN, I still think the topic area should not have folks who are disruptive like this. ] (]) 17:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Pervasively misgendering a child based on the belief that a child cannot express a desire to transition is a form of transphobic behavior. If it was a similar comment made about a BLP on the basis of religion or skin colour ''there would be no mention of WP:NPA''. Misplaced Pages is generally good about handling racism. It is a perpetual stain upon the reputation of Misplaced Pages that it's culture ''continues'' to worry more about the feelings of people who take transphobic actions than of the victims of the same. ] (]) 17:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :* '''Oppose''' as unnecessary given the commitments already given. ]] 11:29, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{hat|1=Let's not. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC). <small>Edited to include edit conflict comment. ] (]) 15:56, 3 January 2025 (UTC)</small>}} | |||
| ::::I am assuming you haven't spent much time in places ] where religious belief and persons of faith are not infrequently and quite openly subject to ridicule. Racism is a subject upon which society has happily come to more or less full agreement. Gender remains an extremely controversial subject with one side regularly resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other. I shall refrain from further comment out of deference to WP:FORUM. -] (]) 21:25, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Fringe ideas get ridiculed at FTN regardless of whether or not they are religious... That so many fringe views are also religious is more a result of the supernatural, transcendental, and spiritual being inherently fringe than any problem with FTN. Religion which is rational and explainable isn't religion any more after all. ] (]) 21:43, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Thank you for affirming my point. -] (]) 21:59, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Your point was that "Gender remains an extremely controversial subject with one side regularly resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other." Right? Like for example the ] or is that not the side you were thinking of? ] (]) 22:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::No. I was thinking of people who regularly insult and ridicule religious belief and those who hold to it. Something which based on your comment, does not seem to be a source of concern to you. That said, this discussion is veering deep into WP:FORUM territory and I am going to move on. Have a good day. -] (]) 22:16, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I don't think I've ever seen any of those people suggest that trans people are demons, or did you mean demonize in a way other than literally saying that the other side is demonic/satan's minions? Becuase that would be highly ironic... ] (]) 22:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::I am reaching the uncomfortable conclusion that you are attempting to be deliberately offensive. And for the record, you are succeeding. Good day. -] (]) 22:27, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::You weren't aware that a cornerstone of the gender controversy was religious conservatives resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other? Because that is well documented in reliable sources. I don't think you're the one who is supposed to be offended here, you're the one saying what appear to be extremely offensive things and are being asked to clarify what you meant. ] (]) 22:35, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::{{ec}} I think a significant point here is that while we may tolerate some degree of forumish and offensive comment about gender or race or religions from editors when they are restricted to largely abstract comment or even when they reference other editors, it's far more of a problem when the editors make offensive accusations about living persons especially when these are completely unrelated to any discussion about how to cover something (noting that the editor continued to make the comment even after they had noted how the English wikipedia treats issues). So for example, if someone says a specific religious figure is delusion or lying in relation to how we treat their testimony that might barely be acceptable. When someone just comes out and says it repeatedly for no reason, that's far more of a problem. Especially if the figure is someone barely notable and not notable (as was the case here for one of the individuals each). ] (]) 22:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| {{hab}} | |||
| {{hat|1=This ''is'' affairs of other wikis. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:10, 31 December 2024 (UTC)}} | |||
| *'''Comment''' This is definitely not the ideal place to discuss the subject since the whole problem originated with pt.wiki, but since the editor came here asking for help (for the right reasons or not), I will draw attention to the case of the admin accused of transphobia. This is not the first time that DarwIn has been singled out due to his comments on the subject (he has already given several examples of this here), but there is an where the editor has already been criticized for making such comments. There, they were also celebrating Skyshifter's ban (DarwIn commented something like "as a man he was 100%, after transitioning he became unbearable" to refer to her). As much as they try not to link the group to the project, to use this chat you need to associate your Misplaced Pages credentials, so I am concerned that pt.wiki admins could be seen spreading speeches against minorities in an official space of the project, since Misplaced Pages is the target of attacks for investing in equity and diversity. In addition to this comment, the admin was also extremely rude and crude towards a ]. | |||
| :Again, this is not the ideal place to comment on these issues, but I suggest that the case be submitted to Wikimedia if any intervention or something more incisive is necessary. The local community can accuse me of anything for writing these words, but I am concerned about the escalation of editorial harassment within that space. | |||
| On co-operation - the posters here seem to have missed the discussion on Galactus, another comic character. I trimmed it back to an acceptable length, and was acknowledged by some as being quite good. Others responded with petulant insults. It is here that many posters fail - it is NOT about who knows more but the enjoyment factor, and of course presenting the information within a "Wiki context." I then offered another poster a chance at presenting his version of the Galactus article. I don't think he's been able to repost yet, but true to my word I've stayed off the page until he has had his chance and we can then discuss it. If that's not co-operation, I don't know what is. | |||
| :PS: The editor was mocking this discussion in the Telegram group while I was writing this. ] (]) 01:57, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| As for 3RR, the first time was simply an experiment. I wanted to see if Wikiepdia followed through (I wrote a paper on Misplaced Pages and procedues). The second time I believe the moderator got it wrong - I was editing and improving on an article, not swapping backwards and forwards three times or more times. I explained this and simply received a "you should know better." I actually expect better from a moderator. | |||
| ::Came back after a month with no edits for this? It's quite clear Jardel is taking something personal with DarwIn here. Or he doesn't have anything to do at the moment. And he didn't have such great writing and narrative in his mother tongue, now is writing perfect, well written English. That gets stranger considering he's partially blocked in ptwiki for some beefing with other editors (] in portuguese)... Quite strange, to say the least. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 03:14, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::And yes, by "quite strange" I am talking about maybe ]. Nobody comes after a month without edits (that was preeceded by some other months before some 5-ish edits), to make an "accusation" based on unfounded arguments, especially after being blocked precisely for beefing and attacking other members of the community in his homewiki. Such a hypocrisy, a user banned for beefing accusating another user of attacks and using the word "transphobia" so vaguely. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 03:23, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::As I expected, the group participants started making accusations against me (that's why Eduardo G. appeared in this discussion) and wanted to insinuate that Skyshifter is writing this text, perhaps wanting to provoke some kind of retaliation later. First, I appreciate the compliments on my writing, which was 100% done by Google Translate; I think Google's engineering is to be congratulated. Second, I'm only here on this page because I noticed the links to this discussion in the Telegram group itself and decided to contribute with what I've been reading for a long time with great disgust. I didn't need to bring much, Darwin himself made a point of making abject comments in this discussion, but if you want, I can bring some screenshots of what they were talking about in the group. Third, I did go 1 month without editing here because my focus is not on en.wiki but on pt.wiki, where I make regular edits. I find it strange that you entered this discussion without refuting any of the arguments above, thinking that bringing up my tarnished "reputation" changes everything that was written by me or in the group. I believe it must be embarrassing to participate in a group where they are celebrating the sanctions that Skyshifter will suffer (thinking that place is a "private club") while at the same time you from the "public side" to the same editor, simulating virtue. In any case, my goal here is only to reinforce that there is indeed materiality in what Skyshifter said with more evidence and once again I recommend that the discussion be evaluated by the Wikimedia team knowing that attitudes that demonstrate prejudice against minorities go against the project's investments in equity, diversity and equality. ] (]) 03:52, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I will not pursue any retaliation. I'm just stating what I know of this case, and I even supported Sky when the edits were being made. People are celebrating because all of this discussion was brought to even another wiki by her. But I understand you might've written this text, and will not take the subject further. If anybody needs anything, please read the message below. Cheers. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 03:54, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::So, I don't disagree with your argument about the sanctions she's passing on the other project, unfortunately. As for "not pursue any retaliation", I don't think that's what you mean by the phrase "4 successful DBs in a row is not for everyone." directed at me. ] (]) 04:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::@] You're wrong, twice. First, it wasn't me saying that. It was NCC-1701, and my user in TG is Edu. And at no point did I agree with NCC's messages. And secondly, the "four DBs in a row" wasn't in anyway directed at you. It was directed to Bageense, who opened 4 block discussions in the last 2 or 3 days and all of them were successfull. You are distorting the messages to condone your erroneous narrative. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 04:22, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Well, if I am "distorting messages" to "tolerate" my narrative, anyone who wants to evaluate can join the group and read the messages posted there or see the pt.wiki discussion against the Projeto Mais Teoria da História na Wiki and talk to its ] to see what their opinion is on the matter. I may not be a perfect person, but what I see with great displeasure (coming from those who are "in charge of the gears") is not positive for the project. ] (]) 04:35, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Joining the group the community would then have no doubts about your intents and distortion of facts. You didn't deny the two things I said above — you know I'm right, you can't bend the facts this much. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 04:54, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| '''As a ptwiki user''' that know what's happening but talked to both sides of the discussion throughout it: This whole discussion started as a beef between Skyshifter and DarwIn. Skyshifter didn't accept some changes DarwIn made to an article "of her" (quotes because articles doesn't have owners. I respect her pronouns), and when discussing with DarwIn, called the whole Portuguese Misplaced Pages project a sewage ()/], thus being banned and the ban being endorsed on the ] <small>(in portuguese)</small>. The discussion was based on the references for the article, was solved in the ptwiki with an outburst from Sky, and that was it. | |||
| I am happy to discuss this, but there needs to be more objectivity and less exaggeration. At present, some of the argument smacks of "X must be stopped!" and is a tad immature. The fact that certain users have followed me to pages they had never previously visited speaks volumes (or those that I've created). There needs to be a little less "my way or the highway" from everyone, not just myself. | |||
| This whole problem was brought here for a single reason only: Beef from Skyshifter with DarwIn. A single change or a single opinion on a DYK shouldn't be reason for a TB or IBAN anywhere in the world, especially considering that it was a difference interpreting the references. I know that my statement won't change anything, as there is an apparent "consensus" on TBanning and IBANning him, though I wanted to make things clear for everyone. | |||
| I won't be making any edits for the next fews day or so, but would hope that when I do that a discussion can follow - not a simple revert and complaint. They are simple grammatical issues that can be thrashed out courtesy of the Exemplars. So long as people are reasonable and a little less self-righteous, then a compromise can be achieved. I'll start with a topic over there in about two days and hopefully some positive change can come of it. | |||
| I am totally open for questioning regarding any of my statements above, and I will supply you with any proof I have and you need. Just ping me here and if the inquiry/proofs are extremely important, please leave me a message on my ] (). It can be in English, just for me to see you need me here. Cheers. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 03:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Regards | |||
| JardelW is a user who was banned from the Portuguese Misplaced Pages due to his detestable behavior. This individual used the same Telegram group that he is now criticizing. The editor was banned from this group due to his behavior, in which he called respected users of the community . And DarwIn is one of the administrators of the group where he is banned, so you can already imagine why he is here. Now, once again he is trying to destabilize the community by defending an editor who called the entire project a sewer and made unproven accusations against an administrator. At this point, the account is practically banned and the article that caused the discord has its deletion or merge defended by several editors. By coming here, JardelW and Skyshifter are, in a way, stating that the entire community is prejudiced. Yet another offense enters the list as proof of Jardel's destabilizing behavior. Furthermore, this user to carry out the same destabilization by contesting on meta the banning of IPs, a consensual decision among hundreds of editors. And when he was still blocked, in an attempt to intervene in the Misplaced Pages domain, where he is banned, simply because he did not agree with the deletion of an article. And this without presenting any evidence. It is clear that Jardel's objective here is to take revenge on the community, and he will be punished for it. ] (]) <!--Template:Undated--><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added 04:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| :It is pretty clear thay the intents of Jardel here are disruptive. Your comment hopefully leaves no doubt to the community. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 04:53, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :As I said above, I am not a perfect person. I may have used foul language to address some editors in a moment of anger, but I felt vulnerable and hurt by editors I held in high regard, and I apologize for what I wrote in the past. Likewise, I do not think it is right that a social channel that is reported as "linked to Misplaced Pages" is being used as a bar where people can say whatever they want, especially when it comes to prejudiced comments against minorities. At no time did I label all of them, only one of them demonstrated that she was doing so. If I happen to receive any sanction for this discussion, and knowing that bringing issues from pt.wiki here is not ideal, I will receive it for doing the right thing, because I want something to change for the better in a project that I have dedicated so much time to contributing to. I may be prevented from editing on Misplaced Pages, but if what I bring here helps to change something, I will be happy. ] (]) 05:01, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| {{hab}} | |||
| :] - this is your second edit ever, and your account was just created today - how did you get to this ANI post? ] ] 05:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::I saw a discussion in the group and created the account to not appear as an IP. ] (]) 05:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::@] The objective of the channel is to be a more relaxed place. And it's not official, . Angry moment? Are you sorry? After your block, you attacked editors on a social network, as attested by a CheckUser: . And there are no prejudiced comments. That's a lie. Where are the links? And how much time have you devoted to the project when all you do is attack others? Enough of this nonsense. I ask that an administrator evaluate the conduct of this account. ] (]) 05:16, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::I didn't realize the discussion was closed. Sorry. ] (]) 05:18, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Supporting both IBAN and TBAN'''. Someone who actively believes in misgendering should not be allowed into this area when they have already demonstrably made another editor uncomfortable. The snarky reply to GiantSnowman does not convince me they would respond well if another editor brought up a similar concern in the future.--] ] 07:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *Can't we give this child and her mother some privacy? What is it about gender issues, as opposed to other medical or developmental issues, that seems to give everyone a right to comment? Let's just report what reliable sources say and leave it at that. ] (]) 18:38, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::If the mother had wanted privacy for her child, writing a book which makes it possible to identify her and know intimate details of her biology for the rest of her life, while documenting her transition step by step for hundreds of thousands of instagram followers, seem strange choices. I don't feel there are any privacy concerns here, that horse has long bolted, and we had nothing to do with opening the door.] (]) 09:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::BLP requires we take great care what we say about living persons regardless of the wisdom of their decisions. This is hardly the first time it's come up where both in articles and in discussions we've required editors obey BLP even if there is a lot of nonsense out there which arises in part from decisions subjects have made. Editors can do that stuff on Reddit or 4chan or wherever they want without such requirements. If editors cannot follow our BLP requirements, they need to stop editing either voluntarily or involuntarily. ] (]) 10:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I don't think BLP covers things that the subject puts into the public domain about themselves or, when we are talking about talkpages, personal opinions on the morality of things they reveal about themselves.] (]) 13:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::talkpages def are covered by BLP as per the policy page.and the policy gives wide latitude about what the subject may have redacted if they object to info, even if they had previously or somehow otherwise placed that info in public domain. | |||
| :::::concerns about privacy have to weigh against dueness but arguing the book gives dueness to try to be internet sleuths and discover and identify a child is probs not gonna pass the smell test.] (]) 13:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::The woman's book names the child, and photos of her are regularly published by the mother on instagram. There is an interview with the mother in Brazilian Marie Claire giving the child's full name and photos. I would suggest not much "internet sleuthing" is required here. Misplaced Pages, and I include Darwin in this, has (rightly) much more concern for her daughter's privacy than she does.] (]) 15:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::The mother may have decided to publicise things, but the child certainly hasn't. ] (]) 21:42, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Children cannot consent, their parents can. ] ]<sup>]</sup> 21:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I would totally agree, but that is irrelevant here, nothing Darwin did was related to revealing the child's identity. He criticised the mother in strong terms on talkpages and this is what the BLP argument comes down to.--] (]) 23:08, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::That's incorrect. He's clearly disputing the child's identity. He might feel that's justified but Misplaced Pages isn't the place for that crap. Whatever the wisdom of whatever the mother did, there's zero reason to think the child is helped in any way by an editor denying their identity. As I've said before, if at any time the child says what the mother said was wrong or otherwise indicates they have a different identity from what's been presented then we'll change our article. But until that happens, we should treat things as they are and not allow editors to question the child's identity. I'd note that DarwIn also kept talking about the child's age in a very misleading way to the extent that I eventually felt complelled point out their bullshit. I did not want to talk about the child's age here on ANI, it shouldn't relate to anything. But what can we do when DarwIn keeps uttering nonsense about the child's age? ] (]) 13:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::I don't feel disputing the validity of the process by which the mother came to the conclusion the child was trans is covered by BLP. The description she made of the process is public knowledge, if a person wants to say "she shouldn't have done it like that" then they are not making any claims about the person at all, merely about whether, in their opinion, their actions are correct.--] (]) 15:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::Ask yourself whether Misplaced Pages would even entertain this discourse if the identity was anything other than a trans one. The answer is a flat no. Darwin's interpretation of the mother's interpretation of her daughter's identity is inappropriate for the project, is disruptive and is openly antagonistic toward trans editors. I think nothing more can be gained from endlessly debating whether we should pretend there is a carve-out to BLP requirements for children within oppressed minorities. ] (]) 17:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support TBAN''', no comment on IBAN. . ] ]<sup>]</sup> 21:55, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. Editors in this topic area can and often do disagree on the underlying issues, which often helpfully ensures that all such material on Misplaced Pages follows our policies and guidelines. However, the responses to Ad Orientem's request and various replies above shows that the proposed remedies would be appropriate given the BLP issues in play here.-- ] - <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 22:28, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose any sanctions''' I’m sorry if I’m interfering in something I’m not involved with, but I’ve been watching this discussion and I think it’s needlessly toxic. What I’m seeing is a misunderstanding of some inappropriate ] on a hot-button issue sparking a dispute that turned into “DarwIn is a transphobic bully” which I don’t think is true. I think the two main parties should simply avoid each other voluntarily and the situation will quickly de-escalate. ] (]) 05:09, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support TBAN''', indifferent to IBAN. Having followed this topic for a few days, it's convinced me that a topic ban for both GENSEX and BLP is entirely appropriate in this instance. My initial scepticism passed after reading responses from the editor and realising that the understanding of BLP policy appears to be even more incomplete than I originally thought. The deceleration from the editor to avoid such topics voluntarily is irrelevant, as combined with the lack of understanding over the concept of broadly construed, commitments have already been made and broken within this discussion alone. So respectfully, I believe this ] type editing, whether it is attempting to ] or simply ] discussions, is nonetheless disruptive and uncivil at times. ] (]) 18:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' per Dronebogus. I'd say "we're better than this" if I believed it. ] (]) 19:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' ''Skyshifter'', if anything, is harassing Darwin in this instance. Darwin has agreed to an IBAN, never mind that he's expressed desires to descelate what has become the longest thread on AN or ANI as of writing. ''']]''' 22:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' This is a pretty explicit case of POV harassment. Their replies to the topic likewise do not give me faith they will adhere to a self imposed limitation. Darwin claimed to have agreed to step away before the ANI was created, but the edit history shows that Darwin continued editing the page up until an hour before Skyshifter created the ANI. Thus, there should be an actionable sanction. I fail to understand how it is Skyshifter doing the harassment at all as Cubby suggests. Darwin even called skyshifter a troglydite () to boot. ] (]) 15:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Oh my fucking god. This whole thread is nuts. I wish I could pardon my french but this is CRAZY. | |||
| :<br> | |||
| :Never in a million years would’ve I expected myself to be responding to a thread like this but I mean here I am. | |||
| :<br> | |||
| :Although Skywing’s concerns of harassment are valid especially if he’s being tracked across Misplaced Pages’s website, as far as I know, there are no guidelines that state someone can be punished for actions on another Misplaced Pages. | |||
| :<br> | |||
| :'''I support''' the notion of Darwin being topic banned from gender related articles (especially trans ones), for the simple fact that his conflict of interest with transphobia has clearly caused a disruption to the Misplaced Pages community. | |||
| :<br> | |||
| :'''I oppose''' with the IP-ban because if anything this '''SHOULD’VE''' ended a week ago when Darwin voluntarily said he would not edit those pages as well as avoid any interaction with Skywing. | |||
| :<br> ] (]) 15:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::No one has proposed an IP Ban. The Aforementioned 'IBan' is a one way interaction-ban. ] (]) 16:28, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I understand, I meant that. Apologies. I misunderstood what it stood for. I would prefer if the IBAN was two way instead of one-way. Seems hardly fair in my honest opinion when both I suppose are equally responsible and to share the blame. This is a messy situation so putting the blame on one when both are equally responsible seems hardly fair. But that's my two cents. | |||
| :::NOTE: I don't condone homophobia or queerphobia or whatever the term is (I'm not really informed enough in this situation to know what Misplaced Pages calls it so I'm adding both just in case) so please don't take it as me defending either side as that is NOT my intent. | |||
| :::Cheers, <br> ] (]) 01:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::This reply reminded me of the essay ]. ] (]) 01:15, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Lol. It is accurate. That literally is what it is I suppose lol. ] (]) 01:19, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' any sanctions against Darwin per Dronebogus. I wish we were better than this, but like TBUA, I don't actually believe that we are. ] (]) 20:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' both TBAN and IBAN. Their behaviour at DYK might have been mitigated if they had taken responsibility here instead of doubling down. A TBAN and IBAN will reduce disruption. '']''<sup>]</sup> 01:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:After I left my comment above and after providing Darwin with a CTOP notice they commented at ] accusing me of coming to their talk page to "{{tq|further troll me with this nonsense warning}}". '']''<sup>]</sup> 01:39, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' both. I'm baffled that some people above are saying "well, they agreed to stop voluntarily" - did they not read the massive post Darwin made above? It amounts to an extended "I'm sorry that you were offended." Trusting that someone will avoid the same mistakes in the future on their own requires that they understand and admit to those mistakes, which is obviously not the case here; how can we trust that an editor will abide by a self-imposed restriction when they won't even meaningfully acknowledge the errors that made that restriction necessary? Therefore, sanctions are necessary. --] (]) 03:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' both. To make sure I haven't lost my goddamn mind, I read this discussion '''''twice'''''. I personally believe Darwin is in the wrong here. His behavior on enwiki violates both GENSEX and BLP sanctions (), and he doubled down when he had the chance to defend himself (] and comments above). Even if we play devil's advocate and assume Darwin's claims about Sky being a troll/vandal and sockmaster (which is a heavy accusation to make) on ptwiki are true, her work on enwiki has shown that she's changed for the better. This is coming from a person who has interacted with Sky a couple of times (], ], ]); she is an amazing editor on here. For the sake of everyone involved and to avoid another mess like this, the sanctions above should be enforced. 💽 ] 💽 🌹 ⚧ <sup>(''']''')</sup> 08:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' - the doubling (and tripling) down that this user engaged in above has convinced me that Misplaced Pages would be better off if {{they|DarwIn}} did not engage in the relevant topic areas. ] <small>(he/him · ] · ])</small> 17:31, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' both IBAN and TBAN. With all due respect to Dronebogus, there is no way this can be chalked up as just an OR misunderstanding when Darwin has gone out of his way to repeately misgender the individual in question while throwing personal attacks at Sky. Regardless of any issue at another wiki, the behavior ''here'' is unacceptable per our rules and guidelines. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:54, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support TBAN and IBAN''': Really blatant transphobia. In case it gets lost in the weeds, Darwin's original comment sparking this whole thing was not just blatantly offensive but full of bullshit: {{tq|'''According to the sources in the article''', after forcing the child she and her husband wanted to have as a boy to "behave like a boy" for 4 years, forcing him to play with cars, football and Marvel heros and even listen to heavy metal at 2-3 years old, and chasticizing him for liking "girl stuff" and throwing away all his "girl like" toys, until the poor child was proposing to die and reborn as a girl so he could play with that stuff, this openly conservative women finally gave up imposing such "boy stuff" on him and at 4 years old decided he was a girl instead, thrusting that identity on the child since then and eventually forming that NGO to "spread the word". I don't know this section very well, so maybe such troglodyte and incredibly prejudiced display of behaviour is something so bizarre it would be worth to have here, but I have to disagree.}} | |||
| ** 1) {{tq|the poor child was proposing to die and reborn as a girl so could play with that stuff}} - no source ever said this kid said that "so she could play with that stuff". The sources just say she persistently wished she'd been born a girl and said as much repeatedly. Darwin's offensive speculation as to why is not supported by any sources. Here's a quote from her mother about this nonsense: {{tq|A boy who likes to play doll is not a trans girl. But a boy who besides liking to play doll, has desire to be the doll, be a girl, dress and have the look of the doll, then we are talking about a child who may have a gender issue.}} | |||
| ** No source in the article says her mom "decided was a girl, thrusting that identity on the child since then" - On her 4th birthday, she told her {{tq|My love, from today you wear whatever clothes you want, play with whatever you want and can '''be whoever you want'''}} - the mom said she'd stop pressuring her daughter to be a boy and that she could be who she wanted, and her daughter decided. | |||
| ** She is now 9 years old, almost 10, and happily trans. So, this is not even a case of insisting a 4-yr old can't tell they're trans, it's insisting that, after 5 years of being happily herself, it must have been forced on her. | |||
| : The only {{tq|troglodyte and incredibly prejudiced display of behaviour}} is expending this much energy attacking a fucking 9 year old and claiming her mother made her trans. I'm ashamed that PT wikipedia allowed him to do this there, and sanctioned Skyshifter for calling him on such blatant transphobia. We should have no tolerance for this bullshit whatsoever. ] (]) 22:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Given that this involves cross-wiki behaviour, does anyone know if this is something which is actionable in the universal code of conduct? '']''<sup>]</sup> 22:55, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' formal TBAN, indifferent to IBAN ] (]) 21:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' both TBAN and IBAN. ]. ] (]) 23:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * I see no evidence that any sanctions are necessary to stop disruption; indeed to the extent DarwIn was disruptive (and I am not convinced they were the problematic party), they have stopped, out of what appears to me to be a genuine understanding of how to avoid the locus of disruption. --] (]) 23:22, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. I read through this entire epic saga and left with the impression that they didn't really seem to get that the BLP and MOS issues aren't something they can just shrug their shoulders at. --] (]) 12:58, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === ] taking matters from another Misplaced Pages to seek revenge. === | |||
| ] 02:07, 13 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| {{hat|1=100% affairs of other wikis. - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| {{atop|result=This entire subsection is about Eduardo Gottert casting aspersions on Skyshifter and providing no diffs or evidence of this "revenge" except for statements about what is going on on another language Misplaced Pages which have no bearing on what occurs here. I'm closing this now before this ]s on to Eduardo Gottert and editors start proposing a block for personal attacks. Baseless counter attacks are generally dismissed at the English Misplaced Pages ANI. Please do not reopen this section. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 09:00, 31 December 2024 (UTC)}} | |||
| On the 29th of December, ] started an AN/I based on a claim that ], a sysop at ptwiki, was cross-wiki harrassing her. To make up those claims, she used as a single proof, of him editing on a DYK nomination . AFAIK, DYK nominations are open for debate. | |||
| She accused him of transphobia, a very harsh word, over some 5 edits on the same page, and all the other arguments in her accusation were from the ptwiki with absolutely no relation to the English Misplaced Pages, and she tried to "force" that it was a cross-wiki harrassment, when it wasn't. The sole reason for that AN/I is a beef from Skyshifter with DarwIn. | |||
| **Re: "As for deleting comments on my user page, what of it? At least two of the persons cited do it all the time - as is their right." Actually, I stopped deleting comments on my talk page because a remark someone else made on your talk page made me realize that wasn't how Misplaced Pages does things. (I'd thought of it like deleting old e-mail. Somehow I'd missed that Misplaced Pages policy along the way.) The one exception to this in the last several weeks was to revert a heading Asgardian should not have added to my note about my own talk page. ] 06:31, 13 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| But all of this happened only, and just because of her banishment for the portuguese wiki. She is the cross-wiki harrasser in this situation, as she came to a project where DarwIn hasn't got nearly as many edits as his home-wiki and most of his edits are on discussions or category/commons related, to try blocking him and thus tarnish his block log. | |||
| **Wait a minute. It just hit me: Asgardian, you just said you deliberately violated 3RR as an experiment while writing a paper. You're not editing much this week because you're taking finals, aren't you? Did you start these edit wars ''as an "experiment"?'' ] 06:40, 13 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| This is all for revenge of some articles that are being debated and will be either deleted or merged with other articles, and especially over her permanent block on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, after calling the whole platform a sewage ( and in ]), ] over other users and using ] and ] to revert back the articles (one of her meats is currently being blocked from ptwiki too, see it ], with all the proofs). The ] taking place at the moment has 10 administrator votes in favour of the block, and absolutely no contrary opinion whatsoever. | |||
| **That's it, isn't it? That would explain the thing that has baffled me beyond all else about you. Why else would anyone spend three months making nearly two thousand edits (seriously) on the same bunch of articles over and over, editing, reverting, defying Misplaced Pages guidelines, reverting, and reverting without branching out and taking an interest in other articles any more than you have? ] 09:08, 13 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Despite some not-so-good arguments from DarwIn in the AN/I above, it is more than clear that the reason for the opening of the said AN/I was '''personal''' and for '''revenge'''. I'm open to any questions regarding this topic, as there is plenty of evidence to sustain my claims. All of this that she's doing would clearly fall under ], here called ] I think, and ]/], and in the AN/I above she's commiting ], repeating the eye-catching word "transphobia" over and over, without sustaining her argument accordingly, seeking to block a sysop at other 3 projects and rollbacker here, with the sole objective of tarnishing his block log, just for revenge and self-fullfillment. | |||
| ]'s answers here are simply ]. He is at the very least guilty by his own admission of violating ]. | |||
| <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 05:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Three editors here and a larger number throughout the affected Talk pages are all corroborating the extent and the nature of Asgardian's behavior. I don't know if he's been behaving as he has for purposes of some Sociology or Media class project, but it's extremely unfair to let him continue when so many responsible editors are spending so much time and effort on him. I don't want to give up on the Comics Project, but all it takes for his kind of behavior to flourish is for good Administrators to stand by and do nothing. --] 22:28, 13 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :{{replyto|Eduardo_Gottert}} You need to provide evidence when opening an ANI thread, not on request. ] (]) 05:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * The comments are still somewhat self-righteous and quite a few assumptions have been made once again. I suggest more discussion on character pages where needed. Have there been any reverts of late? No. Cooperation? Yes - see Galactus. Some of the articles mentioned still need work (eg. Awesome Android) and some will also have to accept that a touch up is inevitable. I'll start with an Exemplar discussion today as some of the "accepted" features need to be readdressed. See you there. | |||
| ::'@] The evidences are above. I said if you need any '''further''' evidence, you may ask. All of the necessary evidence are on the request. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:04, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Where's the evidence? What we know is that DarwIn came here despite little involvement and made a highly offensive statement that can reasonably be characterised as transphobic. While I don't feel Sky Shifter should have described it so, better to let others decide, it was entirely reasonable for Sky Shifter to call for action against DarwIn for it. What is your evidence that they did it for revenge instead of for the fact that after a disagreement with DarwIn in a different wiki, DarwIn suddenly appeared in this wiki, one they themselves agree they barely edit, to make a highly offensive statement that Sky Shifter reasonably felt was transphobic. After doing so, they then appeared on ANI to make similar highly offensive statements were they made offensive accusations against living based on their own opinion. ] (]) 06:13, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Honestly, the argument is pretty clear above. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:14, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::If you agree you're wrong then please withdraw this ANI. ] (]) 06:20, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I did not agree in any place that I am wrong. I just stated that the evidence is pretty clear above, with all the block discussions and diffs needed for understanding the problem. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:23, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Your statement was very unclear. You said "the argument" which I interpreted to mean my argument. If you're still claiming your argument is clear, then please explain how it can be when part of your argument is it was unfair for Sky Shifter to go around saying "transphobia" when many of us agree that even if it was unnecessary, it was not unsupported given the comments DarwIn was making do seem to be transphobic. ] (]) 06:29, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::As we were talking about my evidence, I think saying "the argument" clearly refer to me. And as to the reason for the opening of this ANI, it's because the revenge seeking of Skyshifter. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:33, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I wouldn't say it doesn't considering as I said, one of the reasons your argument was flawed, but you didn't address that in any way. Nothing you've said above or since has explained why you're claiming Sky Shifter using the word "transphobic" is evidence for "revenge" when it's a reasonable characterisation of what DarwIn said. ] (]) 06:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::{{ec}} I would add it's very unclear what you thinking you're adding that wasn't already considered above. In the above thread a 1 way iban on DarwIn seems to be getting serious consideration. A two way iban seems to have been rejected based on the assessment that whatever the wrongs with Sky Shifter's approach, it wasn't serious enough to warrant an iban. The fact that Sky Shifter was in a dispute with DarwIn on other wikis, and DarwIn was involved in their blocked is likewise not a secret, part of it was stated by Sky Shifter when opening the thread and the rest was stated by DarwIn. The sock allegation likewise. So what do you think you're adding to the discussion that wasn't already considered and seemingly rejected by the community above? ] (]) 06:40, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :It is time for a ]. You already said all of that above. You seem to have been canvassed here from a discussion outside of this wiki. Go back there and let them know cross wiki harassment will get you blocked here. ] (]) 05:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::I added more evidence and context. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::You simply cast aspersions as part of a cross wiki harassment campaign against someone over transgender related issues. You are not here to build an encyclopedia. ] (]) 06:25, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Your statement doesn't even make sense. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:26, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::We can add ] to the reasons you are blocked then. ] (]) 06:28, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Am I? And where am I in violation of ]? <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:30, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I used plain English and you said you couldn't comprehend it. ] (]) 06:41, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :I thought it was pretty well determined in that prior ANI thread that DarwIn's edits and statements absolutely were transphobic and bigoted. ]]<sup>]</sup> 06:07, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ] 02:44, 14 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::The reason for the AN/I opens is still the same, revenge. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:15, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| <p> | |||
| *I've read many of the posts on the Portuguese wiki, and it is pretty clear that the Skyshifter's complaint above is a deliberate expansion of drama from there. The Portugese wiki is not Uganda, people do not get banned there for being Trans, and former admins don't get banned without causing a lot of disruption. It is clear these two users really strongly dislike each other and need to stop interacting in any way.--] (]) 06:59, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| "Have there been any reverts of late? No." How can you say that? Here's the most immediate example of how that's just not true: Your last four edits before this noticeboard report were all reverts. | |||
| *:People obviously doesn't get banned for being trans. She was sysop there, commited some errors, but stayed there even after 5 months of being on estrogen. And the community knew it. What caused her block there was calling the project a sewage and then outbreaking and attacking other users. I suggest they get a two-way IBAN, at least, not the one-way as proposed on the other AN/I. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 07:33, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| : reverted all changes since . | |||
| : reverted a lot of changes since , keeping (or adding, whichever) two little edits | |||
| : reverted all changes since | |||
| : reverted all edits since | |||
| :And we could keep going back through your edits, pointing out how very many of them are reversions. You tend to edit your version of each article and not the version most other people are working on. ] 03:36, 14 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I would add that unless I'm missing something, the block discussion on the Portugese Misplaced Pages seems to have been started about 30 minutes before the ANI thread . It has no contributions by DarwIn . It is theoretically possible I guess it somehow factored into the motivation of Skyshifter opening the ANI thread, but this seems extremely unlikely. There's a good chance Skyshifter wasn't even aware of it when opening the thread. In other words, there's no reason to think Skyshifter was even aware they were likely going to be permanently blocked from pt at the time of opening the thread although they did say they weren't going to return. ] (]) 07:00, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * You seem to forget that I rewrote much of the information on those pages and it is still in use. The changes are also minor and acceptable. You are also not taking in what I've been saying. As this is an Admin Board, forward any direct comments to myself or place it under the relevant character. | |||
| ::She opened an NI, ptwiki equivalent of AN/I against DarwIn with crazy arguments. You can see it ]. It was prompty closed, and she was very well aware of the consequences she would face, and of the opening of the block discussion, and clearly opened the AN/I because of that reason. The block discussion started at 1130 UTC, and the AN/I was posted at 1300, at a time that Skyshifter had already taken notice of the discussion, as you can see . <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 07:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *This is ''very blatantly'' a tit-for-tat. As mentioned above there is the distinct smell of fishiness about it, and {{tqq|as she came to a project where DarwIn hasn't got nearly as many edits as his home-wiki and most of his edits are on discussions or category/commons related, to try blocking him and thus tarnish his block log}} - yes, the editor who has ''three FAs'' on en.wiki "came to this project" to do this. Suggest this be promptly closed as I hear a ] inbound. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:09, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ] 05:06, 14 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *:I am not saying she isn't an avid used of English wiki. I just stated that she took ptwiki matters here for revenge and self-fullfillment. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 07:31, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| <p> | |||
| *::If you aren't asking for any sanctions against Skyshifter, then why did you open this sub-section, just to sling some mud at her? Give it a rest already, you're just creating more drama than is necessary.]] 08:34, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Yes, this is an Admin Board, and this information is for the benefit of whichever admin looks at this because they'll be unfamiliar with what you've been doing, even though I've worded these newest remarks in second person to Asgardian. I say them to you because part of me still hopes you'll work with other editors (remember, I personally made sure you knew about this so you could contribute to this discussion), even though experience says how stubborn you are about not taking other people's remarks to heart. | |||
| ::::I think that the background of this dispute is very relevant. Obviously, neither Skyshifter or Darwin should face any repercussions here for behaviour on pt.wiki, but it isn't possible to understand what is happening here without discussing what happened there. For me, having read what happened over there is the main reason I wouldn't yet TBAN Darwin, and would call for a two-way rather than one way interaction ban.--] (]) 08:50, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| I haven't forgotten your edits. I know you've reworked a lot of things, and I've tried to incorporate your better changes to see if you'd accept that as the compromise you mention further above, but you just don't back off. You've kept reverting and kept reverting for three months. You've got your own version of each of those articles. Someone reverts your version, other people edit, you revert back to your own version, it gets edited, it gets reverted. Notice how many different people have been reverting away from your version. You're the single person repeatedly reverting back to your version in spite of all the reasons people have outlined over the last three months regarding what's wrong with your changes. Yes, some of the edits in your versions still need to be added to the version everyone else is working on. I've entered some of your edits into the other version of some articles and I've left some for you, hoping you'd start working with the other regular contributors to those articles. It's just not working. | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| If you really want a compromise, act on the suggestion that several of us have made: Make one edit at a time and learn from other people's responses to them. There have been good edits I'd have backed you up on if you hadn't made twelve bad edits at the same time. But you've gotten this advice and gotten this advice, and yet here we are now. ] 06:51, 14 December 2006 (UTC)<p> | |||
| {{hab}} | |||
| ==Incivility and ABF in contentious topics== | |||
| So let us begin with Exemplars. One final observation I will make is that the more serious contributors seem to fall into two groups - those that focus on technical edits, and those that contribute creative edits (I'd be the latter. I'll let anyone else reading decide what camp they sit in). Marrying the two together seems to be the challenge, which is not always easy. | |||
| ]'s uncivil comments and assuming bad faith on multiple contentious talk pages is not necessarily egregious but I suppose it ''is'' problematic and chronic, consistent and ongoing. I would appreciate some assistance. Here are some diffs from the past few days: | |||
| ] 07:00, 14 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Disparaging another editor's intellect and reasoning skills. | |||
| :I find it interesting that when you refuse to follow the consensus or the exemplars, you dismiss it as a "technical edit". Being a "creative" type doesn't justify stubbornness, unresponsiveness, incivility, or an unwillingness to work with other editors. --] 01:11, 15 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Stephanie_Seneff&diff=prev&oldid=1266584883 | |||
| * You are making an erroneous assumption. | |||
| WP:NPA | |||
| ] 05:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Harald_Walach&diff=prev&oldid=1266713324 | |||
| ::] uses a fallacy called a ] to try and excuse the fact that he feels the policies and guidelines of Misplaced Pages do not apply to him. --] 01:27, 15 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Profanity | |||
| * Not said. I am making an observation. Most of those I've talked with to date on Misplaced Pages perform more technical as opposed to creative edits. If still in doubt, ask yourself how many articles you've written or added to as opposed to correcting little technicalities. Anyway, this is not the place to be discussing such things at length. | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:James_Tour&diff=prev&oldid=1267046966 | |||
| ] 05:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Assuming "malicious" intent; profanity; deprecating the editor | |||
| ::Using the erroneous "technical vs. creative" dichotomy not only splits editors along a nonexistent line, but also serves as a futile attempt to demean other editors (in short, an ] attack). Regarding your assertion that it is hard to "marry the two together," apparently many have done so, with positive results. --<sup>]</sup>''']''' ('']'') 05:51, 15 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory&diff=prev&oldid=1267154877 | |||
| * I have to disagree. | |||
| Unicivil | |||
| "Erroneous" is an assumption on your part. Analysis of many of the comic entries shows that some contribute via a technical "dotting the i's and crossing the t's" edit, while others are creative and may rewrite or create an entire new entry. Edit Histories will show this. It is certainly not a "nonexistant" line - people are different, and their contributions will also differ accordingly. | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Mick_West&diff=prev&oldid=1267158027 | |||
| Neither is better than the other, making your claim that it was ever a "futile attempt to demean other editors" a tad ridiculous. As for marrying the two together, not so easy with the comic entries. There's often a greal deal of passion involved but not as much logic. Just study the entry for Thor. It took months to get that article to the standard it is at now. People with pet fetishes, people wanting it to look like a fan site, people insisting such and such happened in issue X and so on. | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267160441 | |||
| ] 06:48, 15 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Since you used it as example, I checked your last Thor edit. How does, among other things, repeated refusal to follow the exemplar for identifying him as a fictional character help keep the page from looking like a fan site? ] 07:12, 15 December 2006 (UTC)<p> | |||
| Contact on user page attempted | |||
| :I just noticed that since Asgardian has refrained from doing much on Misplaced Pages this week, ] has gone three days in a row without inspiring other contributors to fix it. The last time it went three days (two whole calendar days) without edits was also when Asgardian refrained from immediately undoing someone else's reversion of his work. That just happens to be the only page my watch list includes from Asgardian's edit war list. I expect this phenomenon can be found on other pages he has kept at. This illustrates what I have kept saying about how much work Asgardian creates for other people. ] 07:28, 15 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Hob_Gadling&diff=prev&oldid=1267160795 | |||
| * You make a good point and a not so good point. The "fictional" issue needs more discussion over at Exemplars (after all, of course Thor is fictional!) as do 1-2 other terms that aren't too clear. As for creating "work" for other people, you again sounding a tad self-righteous. Please remember no one owns Misplaced Pages, and that some changes are inevitable. There's being conscientious, and then there's taking the hobby (which is what it is) a tad too far... | |||
| Assuming bad faith, accusing editor of being incompetent | |||
| ] 09:17, 15 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267163557] (]) 03:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Remember no one owns Misplaced Pages. Words to live by. Can you take your own advice? --] 22:47, 15 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Think this calls for a fierce ] slapping and some direct words. I cannot really endorse a ] according to ], as this is just an ] and frankly, I don't see ''direct'' personal attacks, I just see unfriendly behavior and prick-ish attitude, no outward disruption of the project either. Also, I have to ask for further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions, as {{tq|some diffs from the past few days}} are not indicative of chronic issue. The holiday times, like Christmas, Hanukkah, and New Years' can be some of the most stressful times for people during the year. Not saying I like seeing this, but I can understand the feeling. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 04:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Since I said it, I should think so. | |||
| ::Would I be the person to provide you with that {{tq|further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions}}? I did think that it would be more than a ], since that's for {{tq|one-off instances of seemingly silly behavior}} and this is more like a perpetual bad habit that needs something a bit stronger, like a stern ]. ] (]) 06:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :@]: I don't see anything violating policy with regard to direct personal attacks or even profanity directed at a person, but rather directed to the topic in the discussion. ''Hob should know better'', and as per BarntToust, Hob really deserves a trout to be a bit more civil and how to ]. But I would ''caution you'' about ] and the new attention to your activity and involvement this has drawn to your own edits. For example your , , and it seems like you're having a problem handling a ] and assuming bath faith of editors. You are not going to win a battle to get your material included by trying to report other editors in bad faith. | |||
| :Furthermore it does appear that you might be ] because your attempts at ] for your specific perspectives regarding Covid are meeting resistance at every turn. , , , , , , and now this ANI report. Without evaluating everything you've discussed in the past few weeks, at quick glance it appears that you're having problems understanding ] and are having contentious discussions with far more experienced editors. That isn't to say that we assume that they're correct and you're wrong, but when you're receiving pushback from multiple very experienced editors, I would encourage you to slow down a bit and try to fully understand the policy, and isntead of arguing to "win", you need to read about how you need to work towards ]. Because at the end of the day, without consensus, you will continue to have a lot of problems. ] ] 05:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I appreciate the feedback and will take it into consideration and try to refine my approach to disputes. My intention has been to address ''unique issues'' as they arise, versus shopping around the same old dispute. For example, the current ANI topic pertains specifically to some rude behavior that has been going on for quite some time and doesn't show any sign of stopping despite my attempts to resolve it directly. The editor in question actually seems pretty reasonable in their interpretation of the sources but I speculate that there might be a perception in the rank-and-file that it's OK to be pretty uncivil to editors who advocate for moving the NPOV because they're naturally afraid of putting their own head on the chopping block, so to speak. I suppose raising these issues in relevant venues is in line with guidelines. Both of those RSN discussions were related to distinct sourcing problems and resulted in useful resolutions that aligned with my concerns. The Teahouse posts about the Covid content disputes and a question regarding the politics of Misplaced Pages was in response to an administrator’s suggestion (]) that I drop by there for a discussion, and I found the feedback from experienced users there helpful. My talk page comments about user behavior were meant to discuss issues first on talk pages, per the ANI guidelines. ({{tq|All content and conduct issues should be discussed first at the talk page of the relevant article or user before requesting dispute resolution.}} ]) Thank you for your time and input. | |||
| ::] (]) 07:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I hope the editors who read this will notice the ABF here: {{tq|trying to report other editors in bad faith}}. ] (]) 21:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{OD}} | |||
| @]: Jay brought something to my attention with . It looks like there is ] (ChatGPT) text about "COVID-19 Natural Immunity" copied and pasted on there. What in the cheeseballs?? What made you think {{!tq|hmm, let's prompt ShatGPT to churn out 700 words about this random out-of-pocket topic, and I'm gonna post this on my Misplaced Pages user page for no reason!}} I'm confused. This specific revision also ] about IP editors, and here's the rich part: just as you copy-pasted text from ChatGPT about COVID to your user page, you go on to write a section that addresses use of AI. {{tq|Quoting from an AI chat bot without attribution is plaigiarism.}} I'm just confused with what you are doing here. So I'd like to ask you, ], what in the sam hill is going on here? If there is a reasonable explanation for this goofiness, I suggest you produce one, '''not from a prompt entered into ChatGPT''', in your own words. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 16:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :It is an old version of their user page, and it is not plagiarism to quote from a chat bot even without attribution, so we must assume that you are attempt to detract from the OP's complaint. The issue at hand is an experienced editor who joins talk page discussions without understanding the topic at hand (which they admit in one instance ), and are frequently use derogatory language and tone towards other editors. This behavior does not seem like a new thing for them and they clearly know how to skirt the edge of what would be considered a personal attack by an admin, so this merits a formal warning. ] (]) 18:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ] 00:10, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::look, the other guy is acting pissy, and I agree with the formal warning. But @], you should familiarise yourself with ]. The long short of it if you didn't click on one of the several instances of it being linked above: If an editor attempts to bring someone else to ANI while having dirty laundry themselves, this editor will likely be found out for their dirty laundry. And that's what I'm doing right now. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I know what WP:BOOMERANG is and I telling you that you appears to be here only to detract from the complaint, and the way you are doing it by dragging up something from old user page and making claims of plagirism is highly suspect. If an admin scrolls through Hob's comments on the lab leak topic page, they will see that they are almost all designed to provoke and demean other editors. This highly inappropriate for such a difficult topic area where editors struggle to agree on NPOV. ] (]) 18:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::So far, there's agreement that this is unbecoming behaviour from Hob, and they need a ] slap to wake them the heck up from the bad behaviour. I do not understand why the jester cannot be questioned for his goofy behaviour when he shows himself to be goofy as he tries to alert everyone of the fool's, uh, foolishness. No offence intended from this medieval analogy. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::{{u|BarntToust}} You're being ] and you need to stop. WP:BOOMERANG is for when the reporter is the one causing the problems, not for airing "dirty laundry" as you yourself describe it. ] (]) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::well, I tend to get concerned when someone with LLM text pasted on their userpage comes up from the water. If that's considered bite-y to reiterate my concerns in intentional lighthearted analogy in order to seem less hard-headed, then I guess we're done here. @], I invite you to weigh in on whether you think a '''formal warning''' or a ] slap is what needs to happen to Hob. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :That content from ChatGPT was meant to go in my sandbox as experiment or for assisting with research into a future article. The LLM can generate wikitext with links to articles that already exist. ] (]) 18:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::When you get a bunch of text from a large language model, you get unsourced content. If you ask ChatGPT for info, you run the serious risk of getting false content. So, either way you take it: If you get text, then try to re-write it cohesively, and find sources for it, you are ] and that is to be discouraged; if you are asking AI to gain an understanding on an unfamiliar topic, you are likely to run into false information. If you use AI for either of these purposes, @], I suggest you be very judicious about how you go about "leveraging AI". There are more ways that can go wrong than I need to count on the ANI. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Why are you on this administrator page making these spurious claims of plagiarism and giving this unsolicited advices? ] (]) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::@], I'm pointing out questionable content on someone else page. for ''context'', in which they copied ChatGPT text without attribution, then said that using ChatGPT without attribution is plagiarism. That contradictory stuff is what I was questioning. please click on the diff for context. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:11, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I use it more like a (really good) search engine or a thesaurus. It can give a lot of suggestions for a human writer, but ultimately you use your own mind and RS to formulate the facts and how to present them. ] (]) 19:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::that's a good moderation mindset to use. I'm satisfied with your answer, it makes enough sense. Carry on! <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Thanks! *curtsy* ] (]) 00:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *The lack of civility in this contentious topic is significantly hindering editing efforts, especially since most issues concern neutrality and tone, which requires a careful and nuanced approach. ] (]) 17:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :This is not "a hobby", but an avocation. Lay historians are contributing to a new form of academic encyclopedia. A hobby is for fun. We do it from a sense of duty. | |||
| :I can't see anything in the original report that does anything other than show that Hob Gadling calls a thicko a thicko. What is wrong with that? ] (]) 18:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :And since you asked, go to see I've created about 120 mostly lengthy articles, including several biographies of unsung, important comics creators such as ] and ]. Your schism of "technical editors" and "creative editors" is false and obscures the central issue: That by your actions you demonstrate your belief that the policies and guidelines of Misplaced Pages don't apply to you. | |||
| ::@] As someone who was the recipient of one of those attacks in the example, I'm curious, what is a "thicko" and why do you believe that I am one? ] (]) 19:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :The consensus emerging is that you are doing more harm than good by being here. If this is just a hobby to you, and you aren't serious about collaborative historical scholarship, one has to ask whether you would be happier working on a comics fan site. --] 00:16, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::...according to the Cambridge English Dictionary, it means "a stupid person" - which would make it ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 19:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Yes, in British slang, "thick" = "stupid". ]] 19:54, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| There is not enough context for the examples of impatience from Hob Gadling which the OP offers. For example, Lardlegwarmers, do you really expect a warm welcome for your 'attempted contact on user page' ]? Or for your puritanical reproaches about HG's use of "profanity" (which normally turns out to mean using the word ''bullshit'', which is by no means banned from Misplaced Pages, nor is its expressiveness easy to replace with something more flattering). Considering what they're replying to, of another editor's intellect and reasoning skills"]] seems pretty temperate. And so on. ] | ] 20:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC). | |||
| :I'm not suggesting we should wash anybody's mouth out with soap. The editor's consistent uncivil behavior is more than just the occasional salty diction here and there. I mean, look at ] where an editor is asking for a discussion on why Hob Gadling reverted his edit. It seems as if the person was trying to do it on the talk page and was ignored. Hob Gadling gruffly tells the other editor to get lost. ] (]) 01:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| For me wikipedia is just a hobby and sometimes a obsession. ] 00:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :My experience is that this kind of aggression is standard operating procedure for the defendant. I'd basically given up on them seeing any consequences for it - it's been going on for a long time, so I assumed this is one of the cases where editors with enough "social capital" get an exemption from CIVIL. I doubt a trout will have lasting effect. - ] (]) 02:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| <p> | |||
| ::My experience with and attitude toward Hob is 100% the same as described here by Palpable. It goes back a while ... <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿ ] (] ])</span> 22:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| For me, yeah, it is just a hobby (more like a habit), one I wish I'd spend less time on. Its being a hobby is a strong reason not to make waves (or at least not massive tidal waves), a reason to defer the exemplars, policies, and guidelines set by those who devote more serious time to it and to the consensus of contributors in general. If I disagree with an exemplar, etc., I shouldn't inflict my will on the articles. I should investigate the logic behind them and then, if I still disagree, I should discuss changing the exemplar. I'm puzzled by Asgardian's talking about the exemplar talk pages here when we've previously told him to take up these issues over there and yet he continues reverting to versions for which he has been repeatedly informed that they violate the Misplaced Pages way of doing things. Are you saying that you will now only take up these issues at the exemplar talk pages? Are you promising that you will finally stop making changes that you have been told violate the exemplars, policies, and style guidelines set by consensus? And beyond that, what about non-policy/exemplar-related changes you want to make that umpteen other people disagree with? Doczilla 01:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Hob Gadling failing to yield to ], apparently missing both the discussion and RSN link from the talk page. Asserting an unreliable source as reliable in order to describe the subject as having a ‘victim complex’. ] (]) 23:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Why don't you contribute to the Exemplar discussion I've started? Two others are participating and some progress has already been made on an issue. Also, Tenebrae - I am not demeaning your contribution when I say "hobby" , but in all fairness we have all gone a tad too far before now. I am the first to admit this. Yes, Misplaced Pages is important in it's way, but it is not life and death when we are arguing over whether Thor has super speed or not. There is also someone who to judge by their entries sits in front of the computer hour after hour, watching for the slightest change. Condemn me if you will, but I believe that is going too far. In fact, in the interests of OH & S perhaps users should only be able to tweak a finite no. of entries in 24 hrs? It may help reduce edit wars and sometimes, obsession (another Wiki-related sin). Anyway, a good thread has been started at Exemplars. See you there. | |||
| :Note that Hob edited the talk page after re-adding this content; he should have self reverted if he missed this discussion prior. ] (]) 00:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ] 08:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Propose''' serving of trout to both. Hob likely may have acted a hair too strongly to a source of exasperation; but not enough for any warning. Lardlegwarmers provides a large helping of such and I would suggest a boom if not for BITE. Albeit, Lardlegwarmers’ knowledge of WP is beyond the average for an editor with 5x the posts. I would suggest a non-logged warning to Lardlegwarmers on the concept of collaboration for their own good. Otherwise, we are likely to see them back here given their attitude at both this filing and at ]. (Disclaimer, I have been involved.) ] (]) 01:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:For context, ] is on the other "side" from me in a content dispute along with Hob Gadling (])] (]) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::I am on the "side" of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines and am not arguing any content issues here. But I did state I was involved. ] (]) 16:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Best not to imply that your opposition is not on the side of the rules. Given this comment and your involvement, I think you should recuse. ] (]) 00:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::Recuse{{smiley}} Appears that you have over 500 edits to Covid related article pages including their TPs. That's approaching 50% of your lifetime edits and 250 times the percentage of my edits in that area. Consider that in your short time here, you were blocked for egregious and repeated bad-faith assumptions. Probably should avoid that in future as this appears to be the same. Meanwhile, I stand by my post here and involved editors add value; so I will not suggest that you recuse. ] (]) 01:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::To be clear, I was suggesting recusing from proposals, not from discussion. Regards. ] (]) 02:10, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:If you click through the diffs, you’ll notice that many other editors have received the rude comments, so this is more than a 1-on-1 scuffle with me and Hob Gadling. I stopped compiling examples after finding 9 examples of visible hostility out of their most recent dozen diffs, but like I mentioned to ] above, I can go back further if you need me to, to illustrate the chronic pattern. And the handful of other editors who have spoken up here who have been aggrieved speak for themselves. ] (]) 03:31, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *As a note, Hob Gadling without comment and has not responded here. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **You didn't answer the questions: "Are you saying that you will now only take up these issues at the talk pages? Are you promising that you will finally stop making changes that you have been told violate the exemplars, policies, and style guidelines set by consensus? And beyond that, what about non-policy/exemplar-related changes you want to make that umpteen other people disagree with?" ] 09:43, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *:Hob Gadling is allowed to do whatever they want to their user talk page including removing notifications of discussions. ] (]) 00:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::Never said they weren't. Just noting that they clearly received the notice and chose not to respond here, which is a response in and of itself. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{collapse top|Extended discussion}} | |||
| {{od}} | |||
| Wish Hob Gadling would not act like a profane teenager on talk page discussions and that they'd treat people without the smartass-y-ness and contempt. If they are so committed to being pissy towards other users while being shut-off in their own la-la-land, maybe they need a block until they're willing to face the music. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 01:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :This comment is actually more of a personal attack then any of the diffs provided originally. Smartass, like a teenager, pissy, lalaland? That's some ageism, maybe commenting on mental health, and some silly insults. I don't think you should see any sanctions for this, but hopefully you compare your comments to the diffs. ] (]) 22:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Propose a ban=== | |||
| ::IP, how'd you get here? A person who calls things {{tq|bullshit}} and generally isn't in a good mood around others, being condescending: saying that they are pissy and being a smartass is ]. Teenagers are known for angst and pissy-ness and for having lip. Not insinuating they are a teenager, just that their behavior resembles that of. As you will recall, someone, somewhere in this derailed, miles-long trainwreck of an ANI report-turned morality seminar-turned COVID-19 ] + ] debate, said that there is no policy against profanity. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 23:07, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I would just like to note that the arbitration committee takes a dim view of people needlessly changing an article to suit their personal preference. See ]. I would suggest we are close to a similar situation here, and I would urge participants to ] through some method other than ]. I would recommend parties file a ] on the issues or behaviour they feel most pertinent, and if that fails to settle the dispute, seek ]. If that proves unsuccessful, then I think ultimately an arbitration request will have to be made. In the meantime, the arbitration committee has made it plain that where editors '''tendentiously focus their attention in an obsessive way''' ... they '''may be banned from editing in the affected area'''. I'd like to ask my fellow administrators if they feel {{User|Asgardian}} is editing in such a manner that a ban from editing comics related articles for a period may be neccesary. ] <small>]</small> 09:54, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::If I tell User:ExampleA that they did an "amazing fuckin' job!" with a ], that is different than calling User:ExampleB a "{{!tq|fuckin' wanker}}" because they botched a ]. Context is everything, and I get how we are all connecting through the two-dimensional medium of simple text and thus misunderstandings tend to occur, but tones like these aren't that hard to discern. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 23:12, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I have seen this editor's edits, and I support this ban. --] (<big>]]</big>) 09:41, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::When ] shouts "fucking A!" after a job well done, that is not the same when he tells ] that he is a "fucking psycho murderer". <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 23:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Why would we abandon this dialogue? It has actually been quite useful. There have been a few candid admissions from several posters. I've also made no edits for the duration of this dialogue and created a discussion at Exemplars. You also seem to be overlooking the number of articles I've created. I'm going to raising issues on the appropriate discussion boards where I feel it necessary, but beyond that will not play with the agree structure. That said, some creative changes (eg. images, reworking information) are permissible and indeed expected - and can be discussed, rather than being a source of outrage. I also believe that using the term "obsessive" is dangerous and a two-edged sword. There are several posters who have been a tad obsessive from time to time, not just myself. I suppose it is the nature of the hobby. | |||
| :::Right, and there are no egregious uncivil diffs either. So, how is Hob acting like a pissy teenager, but you aren't? Catch my drift? This is a nothing burger report, and the reporter should get a boomerang. ] (]) 00:56, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Hob's profanity is not amiable. It sours the collaboration with other editors. most importantly, it is undue. Mine is not undue, and is a statement of truth. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 01:12, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Provide a diff of something you believe is sanctionable. Your pile of personal attacks is making it unclear what you are trying to say. It's ok when you cuss, but it's bad if someone else does it? What? ] (]) 01:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Profanity has nothing to do with it. The attitude is the thing that's wrong. The word "shit" can be said in many different ways. Some good, some bad. Have you even looked through these diffs of Hob's comments that have popped up through this ANI report? I also invite you to create an account. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 02:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::So, to recap, ]: It's not ''what'' it is said that causes problems, it's '''''how''''' it is said that matters, and in what context. I call a pissy editor pissy because it's great to ]. I can use profanity to describe someone's behaviour, and if I weigh words, I can even use it when addressing someone's contributions; i.e. "This is a really fuckin' well done article, User:Example". Hob calling someone's opinions {{tq|bullshit}} is not the right thing to do. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 02:29, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::I think you may refer to this as calling a spade a spade. When someone says we should ignore science because it has a COI with Covid-19, their opinion is bullshit. This is what you are defending. ] (]) 03:15, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Eh, you can say "That's ] and ] and does not constitute ] as the subject is discussed in ]". Calling a spade a spade is easy, while addressing content and user contributions in dispute should require more, IDK, poise. I can say "fucking awesome work!" to an editor about their ] and no harm can be meant by that in any feasible situation, but when addressing questionable content, it should be done with nuance, eh? You can call someone's work shit whose work ''isn't'' shit, but you pretty much can't call someone's work "fucking amazing" whose work isn't amazing, as calling work "fucking amazing" provides pretty much no point of contention, unless you were just bullshitting them for no reason or trying to be nice about a novice's contributions that in terms of quality, reflect their inexperience. | |||
| :::::::::This entire ANI report has derailed into pretty much every unrelated topic save debate over what ]. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 03:58, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::I'm not worried about contexts when "strong language" is ok, and you can stop giving needless examples. I don't believe anything that violates our guidelines on civility took place at all in the diffs originally provided. Hob was reasonable in tone, and sometimes people are exasperated by nonsense. Being annoyed but mostly polite isn't actually against the rules. You will need better diffs to change my mind. ] (]) 06:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::The COI pertains only to a few authors in particular with a personal stake in the outcome of the investigation. For example, the article uses several sources co-authored by Dr. Zhengliang Shi who {{tq|herself and the WIV itself have an obvious conflict of interest}}<ref> Nie JB. "In the Shadow of Biological Warfare: Conspiracy Theories on the Origins of COVID-19 and Enhancing Global Governance of Biosafety as a Matter of Urgency." Journal of Bioethical Inquiry. 2020 Dec;17 https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7445685/</ref> This is a secondary peer-reviewed article, and several editors who call LL fringe stated it is RS.<ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_327#c-GPinkerton-2021-01-18T14:40:00.000Z-ScrupulousScribe-2021-01-18T14:27:00.000Z</ref><ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory#c-Shibbolethink-20250104081900-IntrepidContributor-20250103151400</ref> ] (]) 08:31, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{collapse bottom}} | |||
| It should be noted that Lardlegwarmers, after only truly starting editing two months ago, has been actively pushing ] misinformation, particularly on Covid related pages. They have actively been making claims that the scientific community is trying to cover things up, such as ], and has been using poor quality sources to try and claim that major published scientific papers on the topic are false, such as ]. This entire thread just sounds like an attempt to silence another editor who has been actively dealing with fringe POV-pushers across numerous articles, such as those linked by Lardlegwarmers above. ]]<sup>]</sup> 02:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| In short, I find the suggestion of a ban to be premature. I also have to say that I am concerned that someone who professes an interest in comics on their homepage chooses to get involved. Given that the subject matter is comic-related, objectivity cannot be guaranteed. | |||
| :Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning. And it seems that's the case here. ] (]) 02:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ] 22:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :*I haven't seen any evidence presented that would put Hob Gadling in the wrong; after reviewing the diffs I'm scratching my head and can only conclude that some of the people above have been commenting without reading them. Most of them are not even mildly uncivil. Going over them, the majority are clearly criticizing someone's argument (or the specific reasoning they presented), which is not a personal attack; and others aren't violations at all. Misplaced Pages editors are not forbidden from using profanity; the fact that Lardlegwarmers' unconvincing throw-every-unconnected-thing-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks approach here extended to the fact that their target used the word (gasp!) {{tq|bullshit}} to describe an argument that did, in fact, turn out to be bullshit shows how weak it is. What's more alarming is that ''that'' was what led Lardlewarmers to try and , a hamhanded effort whose sheer inappropriateness they remain sufficiently tone-deaf to that they made the mistake of bragging about it here as part of their "report". This is a straightforward ] situation. --] (]) 02:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Re:"candid admissions from several posters" Some candid admissions from you would go a long way to help smoothe things over. ] 22:04, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :*:There's only so much we can handle when someone has had five years to fulfill their promise and "]" in situations like this one. Misplaced Pages would be better off if people were more willing to ] and stop treating ]. ] (]) 03:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*:The reason I cited numerous diffs was to substantiate, as I said in my post, that this is a ''chronic'' and ''ongoing'' habit of rude and uncivil behavior. I posted the diff of Hob Gadling's user page not to "brag" (and I don't understand how you inferred that), but rather to show that I followed ANI procedure to address conduct disputes first on the user page and that my attempt was dismissed without Hob Gadling addressing it except to blank the comment with the explantion that I wasn't welcome on his page.] (]) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I am not trying to silence anyone. See above, I recommend a stern warning about consistent uncivil comments and that’s it. If Hob Gadling has something substantive to say, they can say it without demeaning the editors as if this is a combat sport instead of a discussion about articles of text. I encourage y'all to check out the discussions linked to by Silverseren. I have been careful to use sources, present my suggestions in good faith, and stay neutral in personal interactions. I am genuinely trying to find consensus. I'll mention that Silverseren is also involved in the content dispute, providing sources that myself and several other editors believe do not verify an extraordinary claim in the article. (]) It's getting to the point where we should do a content moderation over that, since I am sure that the sources do not verify the claim but Silverseren apparently is sure that they do. ] (]) 03:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I think it was probably a poor choice for you to reference Silverseren's discussion as proof of one-sided UNCIVIL behavior. There is precious little in your first response to Hob in this specific LL section that makes your point that that you're trying to find consensus, but rather demonstrates a heavy handed ''I'm right because I can cite more WP policies in bolded type''. As the Alien above said, you '''{{tq|Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning.}}''' now ]. ] ] 18:57, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::No, TiggerJay, that is false. Except for one link to ], the links you mentioned are all main-space articles to describe the ] contained in Hob Gadling's arguments, including the use of ], as part of my intention to focus on and steer the conversation towards a discussion of the ''content'', not attacking the person (]). This is the second comment you have posted in this discussion that mischaracterizes my actions and falsely accuses me of bad faith.] (]) 19:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::For the record I do ''agree with you'' that Hob's position was absolutely a fallacy; I might assume they might have even been ] you. I also agree that you also have references to main space article, beyond the single reference to policy. I even agree that there is an probably conflict of interest with those virologists you named, but unless their editing Misplaced Pages that is irrelevant unless you're performing ] or ], rather we depend on ] and ] to help navigate such things. You claimed that you intented to {{tq|steer the conversation towards a discussion of the content, not attacking the person}}. However, that is not what I read in that . Out of the gate you're calling Hob uncivil, their arguments are false, and then lobbing further accusations. You get the discussion wrapped up arguing over who said what, and what they meant by it, and why your positions are valid and theirs are not. As for bad faith, I'll invite to other editors to comment below if they agree that I'm the one presuming bad faith towards you. Cheers! ] ] 00:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Your point about RS is well-taken. However, per WP:RS, concerns about the reliability of a particular source ought to be discussed on the article talk page (]) first when it is only germane to the particular topic and not the publication as a whole.] (]) 00:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I think I understand what you're referring to about RS. Yes, there are times when a source is otherwise considered reliable (or even un-reliable) but consensus can be found with regards to a specific narrow aspect of it that might warrant it's inclusion or exclusions, or some variation on how it is presented or the weight afforded to it in the article. And that comes through talk page consensus as you mentioned and does not necessarily need to be unanimous. ] ] 01:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Being entirely blunt, if we have two visions of Misplaced Pages: one in which people are occasionally rude or incivil to people who tout pseudoscience concerning major diseases and one in which pseudoscience concerning major diseases makes its way into article space then I'll gladly sign up for the rude / incivil Misplaced Pages over the pseudoscience one. This is to say that being rude is most certainly a {{tq|lesser offense}}. ] (]) 20:23, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * I would also like my last 6 odd edits noted bfore anyone does anything rash. | |||
| :Please check out the article and discussion. The lab leak theory is not pseudoscience, but rather a scientific hypothesis which important scientists have suggested is worthy of serious investigation (]). Although the evidence strongly favors a zoonotic origin, the investigation is inconclusive. In any case, I would favor a Misplaced Pages where civil discussion leads to a balanced representation of what is published in reliable sources. If your position is supported by the sources, there is no need to resort to name calling. ] (]) 20:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ] 08:37, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::It's pseudoscience and a pseudoscientific hypotheses burdened with quite a few racist and conspiracist adherents who want to propose China intentionally spread a plague just to weaken the United States. Preventing the promulgation of ''this specific'' pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic. ] (]) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::What you are describing is a different idea: ]. The lab leak hypothesis would be that the pandemic started due to researchers being accidentally infected with the virus. {{tq|the World Health Organization is recommending in its strongest terms yet that a deeper probe is required into whether a lab accident may be to blame. ]}} {{tq|The fact that the virus is not human-made does not necessarily exclude the possibility that the virus escaped the lab by accident (Field 2020; Guterl et al. 2020). This remains an open question; without independent and transparent investigations, it may never be either proven or disproven. The leakage of dangerous pathogens had already occurred more than once in other labs.}}(]) ] (]) 21:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::That's not what the article is about. It is about a "conspiracy theory". But this is entirely irrelevant to this noticeboard. This noticeboard is about behavior, not content. It can be extraordinarily frustrating to those who have been building this encyclopedia for ages (20 years in the case of Hob Gadling) to deal with large numbers of brandy new editors trying to push new conspiracy theories, often politically motivated. If you wish respect, try supplying some yourself. Believe me, it will aide you in your work here. I stand by my proposal of trouting you both and an unlogged warning to you that is for your own good if you wish to continue contributing. ] (]) 01:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Beyond what @] said, ''for all parties'', it doesn't matter who is "right" (when it comes to the article or talk pages), that is not sufficient to be uncivil ]. ] ] 01:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Indeed. ] (]) 01:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::If Hob Gadling wants to "deal with" new editors who threaten Misplaced Pages, it should ''not'' be through aggression and insulting them openly, but through quality sources and discussion. Editors who sympathize with "fringe" ideas might be more cooperative if they didn't have to defend themselves against offensive comments in response to their suggestions. ] (]) 07:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::If this "old grievance" about the FTN exemption to CIVIL really has been thoroughly hashed out, could someone link the discussion from ] or something? Being up front about it would save time here at ANI, plus it's always heartbreaking to watch as earnest new editors learn about this the hard way. - ] (]) 01:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Palpable, were you canvassed to this conversation? You seem to be a very inactive editor. I've made more IP edits in a month than you have edits in two decades. I'm curious how such a new editor found this. ] (]) 01:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I am in the diffs. | |||
| :::::I would still like a pointer to the discussion of why FTN regulars get an exemption from CIVIL, I honestly think that should be better understood. - ] (]) 02:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::They don't have an exemption, and I challenge you to provide a diff proving they do. ] (]) 03:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I think he was referring to the comment by Simonm223 above: {{tq|Preventing the promulgation of this specific pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic.}}] ] (]) 07:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::That diff certainly doesn't prove anyone is exempt from policy. I think it's interesting Palpable said he was following diffs instead of saying he was involved in the content dispute underlying this complaint. ] (]) 21:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::No, they're one of the pro-fringe editors in the linked discussion. ] (]) 21:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{collapse top|title=Extended discussion}} | |||
| :::::How ironic that you would call out canvass, when you haven't contributed to this discussion previously, nor have you contributed to any prior notice board. See ], also please see ] if you logged out just to make {{tq|problematic edits}} here.... ] ] 05:13, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I've contributed to this notice board hundreds of times, what are you talking about? IPs are only assigned for a few hours to weeks at a time usually. ] (]) 05:23, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::@]: Okay let me say it another way... | |||
| :::::::* never in this history of this subject has an IP editor contributed. | |||
| :::::::* since January 1, ALL of the IP's who have contributed to ANI aside from your are blocked or had their contribution reverted. | |||
| :::::::* in the last 50,000 edits to this notice board, not a single anon has commented more than 34 times and that user was in Romania, whereas your IP shows US/Mobile, and they are currently blocked. Followed up an IPv6 with 30 edits, last participated in ANI back in May. Followed by a handful from the UK and other countries. The first one who is US based that was mobile has less than 12 edits, not hundreds. | |||
| :::::::* when you choose to edit anonymously (which is your privilege) you accept the reality that people will question your constructiveness because of a lack of established history. | |||
| :::::::But beyond all of that, aren't you simply deflecting from the question brought up? Perhaps @] has been lurking anonymously. As they have logged at least 31 edits to ANI alone . ] ] 05:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::There's a lot of strawmen there to knock down if I cared to derail this conversation, but I'm curious what question you think I'm deflecting? Your assumptions of bad faith are expected, but disappointing. ] (]) 06:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::What I claim you are deflecting KETTLE: Somehow you feel like you can call out someone who hasn’t contributed previously as canvassed, which is a ''serious allegation'', yet that is exactly what your user account history appears reflect. When challenged, you claimed to have edited hundreds of time, which was rebutted with facts, you resorted to allegations. Interestingly they very closely mirror only one other person who liberally throws around terms like strawman and bad faith. And really only one person at ANI has ever held this view so strongly they would plainly say bad faith was “expected” from me . If your not that person, then my query is how did you get involved in this conversation, and when exactly do you proffer that you last edited on here as an IP constructively? ''However, '''if''' you are indeed that person, let me warn you, such activity is considered sock puppetry.'' (Of course editing while accidentally logged out is a human mistake. But persisting and pretending otherwise, is not.) ] ] 07:12, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Don't know what this thread is about, but point 2 and 3 seem wrong - none of my IPs have been blocked, and I am an anon that has, in the to this board I made 38 of them (all edits by IPs starting with 2804:F14), let alone in the last 50 thousand edits. | |||
| ::::::::Maybe I'm misunderstanding your claims. – ] (]) (]) 06:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I think my detail for you was accidentally edited out. You would be an IPv6 from a different country, so unless this IP user is claiming they have rotating IPs hourly because they’re using an international VPN connecting via various countries, I find their claim that they just stumbled upon this conversation dubious at best. ] ] 06:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Also in case you were not aware, while mobile IP addresses can and do change, they still remain with that mobile carrier. So while your ip address will change, who all of those addresses are registered to will not. What I mean is that will your current IP goes back to a US based cell network, you’re not going to get a new IP address that is registered in Japan or even one in the US that is through a completely different network (a few technical exceptions exist, but they’re nevertheless evident). Same with home internet as well. And of course, most work addresses are persistent. All that to say, a claim of “my ip address changes” does not mean that a persona cannot reasonably determine if you’ve contributed to ANI from the a network. ] ] 07:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::When did I say I stumbled upon this thread? Provide the diff. You are putting words in my mouth and casting aspersions. I said my IP changes as a response to you saying I was a new editor. You are creating an elaborate narrative and getting strangely defensive. ] (]) 07:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I will gladly provide the answe after you answer the two questions I have previously asked to you. First was about KETTLE, and the second asked you to substantiate your claim of {{tq|I've contributed to this notice board hundreds of times}} by providing your last contrustive ip edit to this notice board. ] ] 07:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Please read ]. I'm not going to link all of my comments across IPs here for you. If you really believe I was canvassed, you need some diffs, or maybe you should strike your aspersions. ] (]) 07:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::All I can do is laugh at your replies. More KETTLE behavior. You claim don’t have to proof anything per SATISFY, yet in the same breath you demand such of others. More ad hominem, deflection. Zero actual replies. ] ] 08:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::What are you talking about? I asked one question, got one answer and it was done. It was you who started a long thread full of bad faith assumptions and no diffs. Provide diffs, or kindly stop bludgeoning. ] (]) 08:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{collapse bottom}} | |||
| {{reflist}} | |||
| * Yeah, something like RfC, a ban, or more could certainly be more appropriate if the previous edit wars resume. But now? I go back and forth on this. We already took the step of bringing this to the incident board, after all. If Asgardian is actively trying to work with consensus and striving to play by the rules Misplaced Pages set for its sandbox, that's all we really need. ''(Is that what Asgardian intends to do? Unless I missed it, he still hasn't explicitly said so. Not fully.)'' Skeptic that I am about pretty much everything, I would nevertheless like to ]. Given the history, though, we need some strong assurance. One week of backing off (a week when Asgardian had already said he wouldn't be editing much), well . . . it isn't a lot to judge by when weighed against three months of edit wars, is it? I would certainly support a ban IF that mess resumed. His apparent lack of humility (telling other people to be smarter, calling other people self-righteous or rash when his repeated edits have worn out their civility, lack of acknowledging that he has been pushy no matter how many people oppose his edits) can make it hard to want to work with him. If we were going straight to a ban, though, I'm not sure why he'd have been given the opportunity to discuss things here and change his actions. ] 09:35, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ===Send to AE?=== | |||
| * Thank you for the being the voice of reason, Doc. I think Steve block's suggestion is after the fact, given that you and I have just cooperated on and improved two entries. I also don't think Chris Griswold even read the rest of the discussion. At any rate, I think this has gone on long enough and needs to be resolved. As previously indicated, my edits of late speak for themselves. | |||
| Given how long this has gone on for, may I make a suggestion? Send this to ] since ANI seems incapable of resolving this, and it falls solidly into the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories. ] (]) 21:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ] 01:26, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Another claim that civility complaints are treated differently in "the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories". | |||
| :Like ], I remain skeptical. Are we going to have to go through this again in another month or two? I'm not a crystal ball, but ] has edited responsibly at one point after complaints came up, but he only did so temporarily before all this flared up. | |||
| :That matches my experience and I'm grateful to the people willing to say it out loud, but surely it would save a lot of drama and forum shopping if someone just wrote it down? - ] (]) 22:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::The IP made no such claim? - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I thought that was implicit in the request to move the civility complaint to a forum about fringe theories, but you're the expert. - ] (]) 23:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::FYI ] is arbitration enforcement, not the Fringe Theories noticeboard. ] (]) 16:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::That's what I had thought, but the not logged in guy seems to be saying that a civility complaint should be moved to AE because it's a better venue for "the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories". | |||
| :::::It's really striking to me that the main argument here is not over whether Hob is civil, it's whether he should have to be. - ] (]) 20:49, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :As others have noted, being brusque with pseudoscience-pushers is an insignificant offense when compared to agenda-driven editors who are only here to advocate for a fringe topic. Esp. when they have only been editing for a handful of months. ] (]) 23:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :One has to go through with things or else some people will always call your bluff. A month or so ban to show how seriously the rest of the community takes Asgardian's actions would drive the point home once and for all. Maybe then the rest of us can get some rest and channel our time more productively.--] 03:59, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::While I do agree that from an objective and absolute POV (e.g., of an external user evaluating Misplaced Pages) it is better to have an uncivil but pseudoscience-free Misplaced Pages than a civil but pseudoscientific Misplaced Pages, from a subjective and relative POV (e.g., of editors making internal decisions together) it is impossible to systematically abandon a relatively less important principle on the basis of a relatively more important principle without completely annihilating the less important principle. That's why ] is policy. | |||
| ::Moreover, as others have also noted, because WP:CIVIL is a principle that at some point does get acted upon, we would all be better off if no one, on any side of any given debate, would minimize it. ]. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿ ] (] ])</span> 10:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Too much presumption of intent here with regard to 'pseudoscience-pushers'. It is easy for us to diminish our opponents in this way. Civility and NPOV are equal pillars. ] (]) 15:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I '''second''' to motion to bring this to ]. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 04:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Topic ban for Lardlegwarmers=== | |||
| == {{user|Amoruso}} requests unblock == | |||
| {{userlinks|Lardlegwarmers}} | |||
| Hello. I have unblocked Amoruso yesertday in response to his request. However, Dmcdevit has convinced me that it would be proper to restore his block and solicit wider consensus. So I have reblocked him and taken the matter here. | |||
| A cursory look through this account's contributions has me convinced that they ought not to be contributing to COVID-19 Lab Leak Theory pages, widely construed. More generally, it seems they are using Misplaced Pages as a ] to promote a lot of what I would deem "anti-establishment" claims which necessarily run right up against the ] remit of our encyclopedia. In fact, they are close to being a ] in this regard. Topic ban from American Politics might help reorient their problematic proclivities. | |||
| Before you opine, see: | |||
| *http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:Amoruso | |||
| *http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Dmcdevit#Amoruso | |||
| *http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Crzrussian#Amoruso | |||
| *http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR#User:Amoruso_reported_by_User:RedMC_.28Result:48_hours.29 | |||
| ] (]) 21:38, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I have restored the original unblock request on Amoruso's talk page. Thank you. - <b>]</b><small> ]</small> 21:46, 11 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *He's clearly revert-warring without reference to the talk page. That he's four minutes outside 24 hours is frankly beside the point. I would also support page protection. ] ] 21:50, 11 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Edit warring to prevent an RFC == | |||
| * Endorse block - "which he didn't trip, making his 4th revert after 24 hours and four minutes" stinks of ], the purpose of ] is to prevent edit warring, not to permit provided specific rules are followed --] 21:52, 11 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| @] has removed an RFC tag from ] now within . | |||
| ] provides a list of circumstances under which you can stop an RFC started by someone else, and disagreeing with the question or wishing that it contained additional information is not in the list. | |||
| *Endorse as well. There's no reason we should encourage edit warring. Once people revert more than once you already have an issue. ] overrides such technicalities of four minutes. <font color="DarkGreen">]</font><sup>]</sup> 21:55, 11 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *My reasoning for the block was that for someone who has been blocked for 3RR before, 4 reverts in 24 hours ''and 4 minutes'' is simply gaming, and, compounded by the incivility, the block was valid and uncontroversial. 3RR is not an entitlement to edit war. ]·] 21:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::''copied form user talk'' | |||
| :::I'm disappointed by the POV of some users concerned in their remarks. ]'s claims for "warrior and single purpose" for example are completely false. While I was blocked once for 3RR it was controversial since I saw that as a serious infringement of ]. At this time I was involved in the edit-war and accidentally reverted 4 times against someone working against consensus. There was no incivility and I believe you were right in cutting the ban to essentially 12 hours. 48 hours was inappropriate especially since I contacted ] personally and also apologisied for reverting 4 times and agreed not to revert the article ever again - this even though I never violated ]. ] 22:01, 11 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Yet he my explanation (as blocking admin) as to why ] did not apply for that case, then proceeded to request an unblock as if such an explanation never existed, writing: "Not only is that ruling wrong, but it's also supposed to be max 8 hours per first offense. But really in an edit war like this, no block should have been made, perhaps page protection" ] 23:03, 11 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::He also got away recently without a block for persistent edit warring on ] (cf ), although another user was blocked for five days for a similar level of edit-warring on the same article. This user is a persistent problem. ] | ] 23:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Being the editor who reported Amoruso for (for which ] blocked ), I disagree with Amorusos report of the events. First; if anybody worked "against consensus", it was in fact Amoruso. Only three editors worked on the article at the time; two of us were in agreement, and Amoruso disagreed with the two of us. Secondly; I found Amoruso extremely incivil, e.g saying I made "outright lie"s, etc., which I find <i>very</i> offensive. (And nobody reviewing the edits/block have agreed with Amoruso) Regards, ] 05:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC) (who is, btw, a "she", even if Amoruso insists on referring to me as "he".) | |||
| :::::::I wasn't talking about that 3RR Huldra, you read it wrongly. ] 17:43, 14 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Endorse'''. ''In general'', I believe once a block is reversed on an editor, it should not be reinstated. Assume good faith, prevent edit wars, make the administrators look more consistent. :) However, there are too many other issues with this particular editor and I believe a 48 hour block is justified. It's only two days, anyway. --] 23:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| We have to be pretty strict about this, because an RFC is one of the few ways to attract the broader community's attention when there's an ] problem or a ] that needs outside attention. The fact that an editor doesn't welcome outside attention sometimes indicates that there is a problem. I'm ''not'' saying that these things are happening in this case, but the rules have to be the rules for all RFCs, not just for the ones we agree with, because these things do happen in ''some'' cases. We can't really have opponents of an RFC question/proposal, no matter how well intentioned or how justified they think it is in this one case, unilaterally deciding that the rest of the community doesn't get to find out about the dispute. | |||
| *Coincidentially, I'm just finishing up writing a few words on this user based on his edits from last week alone, which I intend to post tomorrow/when done. This user has been engaged in some heavy disruptive behaviour and edit warring for months, and I'm surprised he hasn't been blocked more than twice. I think some furter action is warranted. -- ] 23:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I wouldn't bother with this here, except that it's already past my bedtime, so I need someone else to handle this. The proper way forward is to run the RFC, and for the loyal opposition to take the advice about how to respond that they'll find in the first two questions of the ]. See you tomorrow. ] (]) 08:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * I respectfully disagree. I know this is not a popular opinion and although I do not support Amoruso's every edit (in this case, I wish he had waited and not called his opponent a vandal). Please let's keep in mind that we deal with the area of WP inundated with daily attacks of all kinds. In his defense, I'd like to point out that Amoruso usually does discuss his edits on the talk pages and is far from being the worst violator of WP policies. ←] <sup>]]</sup> 01:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ** is a recent example of a user with worse violations who made 5 RVs in 24hrs weaseled out of block. I find such discrepancy in applying penalties unacceptable. ←] <sup>]]</sup> 02:24, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ***Discrepencies mean that it should be better enforced, not that we should unblock them all (otherwise you are aguing ''for'' that unblock). ]·] 03:03, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| **** Agreed. Since we discuss technicalities here, 24 hrs is 24 hrs - I saw users casually being forgiven for reverts made over period longer than 24 hrs. And finally, Amoruso's opponent was a sockpuppet of a banned user: ] ←] <sup>]]</sup> 04:37, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| * I've edited on the same pages as Amoruso for quite awhile now. Like Humus, I don't endorse every edit he has ever made, but I completely disagree with Steve Hart and Palmiro that he should be singled out for censure and criticism. I would ask you Steve, when you make the list yo mention, to look at ALL parties concerned and their behavior as well as Amoruso's. It obviously takes more than one editor to make an edit war. Amoruso is interested in some very contentious pages. These pages are also plagued with frequent vandalism. The general contentiousness of his topics of interest, and the way MANY OF US deal with them, are at the root of the problem. Given the contentiousness of the topics, we would all do well to pay very close attention to WP policies about NPOV, civility and assuming good faith (note to self and others). Singling out one editor for severe censure is not as helpful to the project as learning to compromise, to state things neutrally, to allow more than one pov on a particular page. ] 01:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :*Editors are judged on their own edits, the misbehaviour of other editors is not an excuse for violating the rules. I'm not going to include other editors as I'm not involved in the case, but do report them if you want. Your wise words about NPOV and civility is actually the root of the problem, since this user has a longtime history of ''not'' adhering to these policies. When a user such as ] posts to the Notice board for Israel-related topics that, quote, "I'm not particularly interested in staring into Amoruso's soul. I'm interested in understanding the purported reason for the removal of material" (partial quote) it should ring a bell. -- ] 07:56, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Unfortunately Elizmr if Amoruso is being singled out, he's being singled out for ''not'' being blocked and ''not'' being banned when the users who are behaving like him ''are'' blocked and banned. For example ]'s 5-day block of ] for being essentially one half of an edit war on ] with Amoruso, who remained unblocked. Or ], who looked rather like the mirror-image of Amoruso and was indefinitely blocked if I recall correctly. ] | ] 21:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :As previously explained elsewhere, I removed the tag because my understanding is that the serious COI issues invalidate the RfC. | |||
| ::::Wow, Palmiro, this is a '''strong personal attack against Amoruso''' and I feel you should retract it. I'm quite familar with ]'s editorial history. This user ran afoul of many core Misplaced Pages policies including ] and ] on many occasions. Please refer to the history of her talk page to see the lack of any development as an editor in terms of adherance to policy or "culture" in terms of civility, etc. In terms of ], she accused everyone who ever disagreed with her of poor faith, attacking her personally, etc. She once accused me of trying to get her to make a racist remarks. In terms of her understanding of ], she once said that "infidels" had no place editing pages in English Misplaced Pages that have to do with Islam. Saying that only one class of EDITORS should be editing on a particular topic raises a very red flag when it comes to her participation in this project. Finally, her understanding and implementation of ] was completely lacking. Calling non-Muslim editors "infidels" and refusing to retract that remark was highly uncivil. She did not even attempt to be CIVIL to anyone she considered a "Zionist" (which was basically a curse word to her). If you are going to compare Amoruso to this woman, you are way way off base. (Also please note that many editors who share PRs viewpoints are great Misplaced Pages editors and I very much enjoy working with them, but she was not by any criteria a good editor). ] 00:07, 13 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I am perfectly happy to take instruction on that point if I am incorrect but the removals were undertaken in good faith. | |||
| :::::Thanks, Elizmr. Yes, it's quite rude of Palmiro to say what he did. But it's not surprising since Palmiro was involved in many rude edit-wars and is probably thinking of himself in that sense. Which is a shame. ] 02:58, 15 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :The idea that I should be reported to ANI for this just because it is past someone's bedtime (and they don't have time for talk page discussion) seems to me rather an over-reaction. ] (]) 08:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Indeed, I am perfectly happy to volunteer to replace the tag if an administrator indicates that that is the appropriate course of action. ] (]) 08:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{u|Axad12}}, please do not tamper with the RFC. I have already commented there again based on my previous assessment five weeks ago, and I have ''absolutely no'' conflict of interest in this matter. In my opinion, you are taking too aggressive a stance on this issue. I happen to be an administrator but I am also involved with the dispute as an ordinary editor. ] (]) 08:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{u|Axad12}}, I'd strongly suggest you return the tag. {{u|WhatamIdoing}}, a {{tl|trout}} for ]ing. - ] <sub>]</sub> 08:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Thank you for both of your advice. I will shortly replace the template. | |||
| ::::The COI issue does not relate to Cullen, it relates to another user entirely. I would be grateful for input on the underlying COI issue, which seems to me to have been an exceptionally serious abuse. ] (]) 09:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::What? A company quite reasonably does not want to be ''falsely accused'' of adulterating their edible product with antifreeze, based on what a fringe source wrote, and you consider that {{tpq|exceptionally serious abuse}}? ] (]) 09:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :No, I'm referring to the series of events outlined here where a paid COI editor has a COI edit request turned down and then starts cultivating a co-operative project member to implement non-contentious COI edit requests before reintroducing the contentious COI edit request and immediately tipping off their repeatedly canvassed project member to implement that contentious request. | |||
| :I feel that that is an exceptionally serious abuse - clearly it is an attempt to distort the COI editing process by attempting to make sure that a previously co-operative project member deals with a resubmitted request rather than waiting for a random volunteer working out of the relevant queue (one of whom had previously declined the request). | |||
| :As I said above, I am quite happy to take instruction on this point - but personally I feel that what happened there was highly inappropriate. ] (]) 09:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::In other words, you want highly misleading content to remain in the article, just to make a point? ] (]) 09:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Cullen, my post directly above is clearly about a point of process rather than a point of content. | |||
| :::Even if the original COI edit request was incorrectly declined that would not justify the paid COI editor attempting to game the system to get the request through at the second time of asking. ] (]) 09:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::"Asking a second time" is not ]. ] (]) 22:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Agreed, but for a COI user to attempt to influence which user will deal with the second request does constitute gaming the system. ] (]) 22:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::No, it doesn't. Read the guideline instead of guessing about its contents from the ]. See, e.g., {{xt|An editor ''gaming the system'' is seeking to use policy in bad faith, by finding within its wording some apparent justification for disruptive actions and stances that policy is clearly not at all intended to support.}} Asking an individual to help has nothing to do with finding wording in a policy to justifying disruptive actions or stances that are not intended in that policy. | |||
| ::::::I also direct your attention to the item that says {{xt|Gaming the system may include...]ing the consensus-building process}}. ] (]) 22:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I was using the phrase 'gaming the system' in it's natural application (not specifically referring to ], which I didn't know existed until you linked to it above). Clearly the COI user was attempting to distort the COI edit request process in some way - whether one refers to what they were doing as 'gaming the system' or some other similar phrase is neither here nor there. ] (]) 23:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Also worth noting that ever since the original COI edit request back in August the clear talk page consensus has been that the material should remain within the article and is not {{tq|highly misleading}}. | |||
| :::I've been part of that consensus position since approx October/November. Since that time the user who opened the RfC has repeatedly been opening new threads, continually trying to re-address a subject where they are repeatedly in the minority and presumably hoping that those who previously opposed them do not turn up to oppose them again. ] (]) 10:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Maybe we should hold an RFC on whether the RFC tag should be there? ] (]) 09:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Right, I've had breakfast now so am in a position to make a more serious reply. This is a content issue (on which I hold, as yet, no opinion). On this page we often tell editors that the way to settle a content issue that hasn't been settled by more informal methods is by holding an RFC. Axad12, you should express your opinion as part of the RFC, not oppose holding it. By your behaviour you are turning people against you who might have supported you. ] (]) 10:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I've already said that I'd be happy to replace the tag if instructed to do so, and upon being instructed to do so I immediately replaced it. As far as I can see that issue is now resolved. | |||
| ::I've asked for comment on the underlying COI issue, which is not a content issue. ] (]) 11:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::RFCs can handle COI issues. In fact, when ] can't resolve a dispute, they sometimes host an RFC to settle it. The nice thing about an RFC in such situations is that if it closes with an outcome like "The consensus is stick it to these fully policy-compliant, completely disclosed paid editors by making sure that this article implies the company's product was adulterated with a poisonous industrial chemical, just because we found one ] book that used this language, because it's really unreasonable of them to not want sensationalist and derogatory information in our article about their product" then you can generally be sure that the result will stick for at least 6 months and usually longer. | |||
| :::But you've got to get that consensus first, and I'm not sure you will. For one thing, it's been my ] experience that when someone objects to holding an RFC because the question is biased, that's a fairly reliable sign that they expect the RFC result to not match their preference. ] (]) 22:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::My concern (rightly or wrongly) was simply that there was a COI element to the request which had not been disclosed. I swiftly requested clarification on that point and upon receiving that clarification I immediately reverted myself. | |||
| ::::It isn't really relevant here but actually I ''didn't'' expect the RfC to develop contrary to my preference. That was because the previous 4 months had indicated a consistent consensus opposing what the instigator of the RfC was proposing. In fact, to be perfectly honest, I don't actually have a particularly strong preference one way or the other on the issue at stake - I've simply consistently observed during November and December that the consensus was against Zefr, which seemed to me to be a simple matter of fact based on the various talk page threads from August to December. ] (]) 23:38, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *On matters concerning the Breyers article, Axad12 has been an uncollaborative, disruptive, and hostile editor ] with {{u|Graywalls}}, who is the main proponent over months of using the slur, "antifreeze", to describe a minor GRAS ingredient that is the subject of the current RfC. Both users have ignored requests on the talk page to collaborate for a factual, well-sourced article. | |||
| *Oppose block per Humus and Elizmr. It also seems to me that if the "3RR" is going to be applied the way some people are applying it, the reference to 24 hours should be eliminated from the policy page. If the rule is really that you can't revert more than three times in an unspecified time frame as determined subjectively by an administrator after the situation has occurred, let's say so. ] 02:16, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *Endorse, ]'s judgement was correct. This is particularly the case when the user who posted the Amoruso 3RR report was himself blocked just before from a report posted by Amoruso. Also, ANI should not have been brought into this rather obvious case. {{User:Netscott/s1.js}} 02:24, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *Oppose block per Humus, Elizmr and 6SJ7. Amoroso was not violating 3RR so the reverse of the block was correct. I agree also with Humus that he has thrown himself into the maelstrom of some very contentious pages and that there needs to be evenhandedness here. I've personally stopped editing some contentious pages involving religion because the arguing is endless and never resolved. He might want to step back from some of this editing but I think that singling him out for severe censure is not warranted.--] 03:05, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :*Edit warring in general is discouraged. I think that ] likely contributes to the erroneous notion often held by edit warriors that they have a right to revert 3 times within 24 hours, as long as they do not exceed the electric fence. This is false and it should be clarified that edit warring is bad, without specific reference to the numerical requirements of 3RR. <tt class="plainlinks">]]</tt> 03:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :: The fact of life is, we do need an electric fence because some users won't listen to any arguments and some policy must be enforced. The problem is, it is enforced inconsistently. ←] <sup>]]</sup> 03:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::I agree...but four minutes? ] even says "users may be blocked for edit warring or disruption even if they do not revert more than three times per day". <tt class="plainlinks">]]</tt> 03:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Amoruso's editing is aggressive, but those he is opposing seem equally aggressive, if not moreso, and Amoruso does use the Talk: page to support his edits. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 03:58, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *Oppose block per Jayjg. Once we begin overstepping the actual 24h limit, we're down a slippery slope. Does 4 reverts in 24H+ 55 min count as gaming, too? 25 H? ] 04:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :*If Amoruso was indeed engaging a banned user then I would support a lifting of his block. Obviously the original blocking admin ] could independently verify this. {{User:Netscott/s1.js}} 04:58, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' block per Humus and Elizmr explntion. He is a revert warrior but is a longstanding contributor in a very contentious area where we have recently seen the formation of a ] dedicated to protecting their member's views. ] 05:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' since he was reverting a blocked sockpuppet (per Humus et al). While I don't agree with many of his edits, I don't see why he should be singled out, especially as he does utilise Talk and generally respects policy. <font style="color:#22AA00;">''']'''</font><font style="color:#888888;"><sup>]</sup></font> 06:16, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' per humus and others, I can recall of many precedents were it was decided that 3RR specifically means that the user reverted at least four times in a twenty-four period (at least one of Irishpunktom's blocks comes to mind, ). Anyway, Amoruso isn't really a problem user, while he can be very aggressive I would primarily attribute it to reactivity to the behavior of other users rather than anything malicious on the part of Amoruso.- ] | ] 07:58, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment:''' I'm disappointed to see several editors who share Amoruso's political viewpoints, to the extent that a couple of them has exchanged barnstars with him, suddenly comes out in support. Editors should not value political leanings over rules and procedures. And I don't think edit warring with a sock puppet changes the facts of the case, unless he ''knew'' it was a sockpuppet, in which case he should have reported him instead of revert warring. Dealing with a sock puppets is not a carte blanche to do what pleases us. -- ] 08:03, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Having never contributed a sentence or source to the Breyers article, Axad12 has blatantly reverted simple, sourced edits claiming a false consensus which has no good source to support the propylene glycol/"antifreeze" claim and no evidence of consensus input by other editors over the last many weeks. An evolving consensus on the RfC is to exclude mention of propylene glycol as undue. | |||
| ::Please read over the ] policy before you decide to comment on the presonal motivations of other editors.- ] | ] 08:29, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::*WP:AGF does not exclude me from raising the point that sometimes editors let their personal opinions stand in the way of upholding our policies. -- ] 09:25, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Moshe's right; just because it a number editors who have 'exchanged barnstars'with Amoruso are supporting him in this does not mean that we can assume that it is their shared viewpoints that lead them to do so. That being said, I note that a good number of the arguments are "but the others are worse!" Not a relevant statement, and one that one hears from people who are supporting someone for the sake of supporting someone. ] 09:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' block, per Humus and Moshe. ''I don't believe Amoruso and I have a single political viewpoint in common''; nevertheless, he has made plenty of worthwhile contributions to the wikipedia and I have never found him to be disruptive despite laboring on many an article alongside him. It's easy to cherry pick a few bad edits out of the bunch, as below, but I'd hate to see the write up someone could do about me! -- ]<sup>]</sup> 10:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ===This block is wholly unjustified by the ], and appears to be inconsistent with ]=== | |||
| ] clearly states that <blockquote>Editors who have been banned from editing particular pages, or banned or blocked from Misplaced Pages in general, and who continue to edit anyway, either directly or through a sock-puppet, may be reverted without the reverts counting towards the limit established by this policy.</blockquote>As ] was blocked because of his reversions of the edits of ] on ], and since ] has been as a sockpuppet of an indefinitely banned user, Amoruso's reversions on ] qualified as "reverting edits from banned or blocked users", and thus did not violate the ] or otherwise constitute revert warring. Moreover, ]'s alleged incivility on ], "characterization of others' edits as vandalism", was actually quite appropriate language when employed to describe the edits made by a sockpuppet of banned user. ] 22:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Scientific and legal literature concerning propylene glycol (]) placed on the talk page have been ignored by both users, without attempts to discuss or apply what any objective editor reading the sources would agree are authoritative. | |||
| ''':Thank you... and yet I served the whole 3RR so I would like to ask someone to ban and unban me after a second and say it wasn't a deserved block for the record. Because else people will use the bad record of block against me. Thank you. ] 12:00, 13 December 2006 (UTC)''' | |||
| '''Proposal''': Because of Axad12's hostile attempt to revert a legitimate RfC, tag-team behavior with Graywalls on the Breyers article edits, canvassing each other on its talk page, and ], Axad12 and Graywalls should be ] from the Breyers article and its talk page. | |||
| === Longtime disruptive behaviour by ] === | |||
| *<s>'''Support'''</s>. ] (]) 21:43, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ''(note: there's a preceding debate above regarding a disputed 4RR by this user, I wrote this up before that situation arose).'' | |||
| :Strike as withdrawn for Axad12 ABAN to concur with {{u|Cullen328}} and the ''oppose'' decisions below. | |||
| ::{{u|Graywalls}} is a separate case remaining undecided here. Over the 2024 article and talk page history at Breyers, this user was the main purveyor of disinformation, and has not acknowledged his talk page hostility and errors of judgment, despite abundant presentation of facts, sources, explanations, and challenges for information below. Graywalls should commit to abstain from editing the Breyers article for a given period, as Axad has done. ] (]) 00:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{re|Zefr}}, your domineering and territoriality to that article is a big part of escalation and if anyone, it should be you who should refrain from it. Blatantly disregarding consensus and going so far as saying {{tq|Statements of facts supported by reliable sources do not need talk page consensus.|tq}} as done in which goes to show you feel you're above consensus. You weren't persuaded until you were corrected by two administrors {{u|Aoidh}} and {{u|Philknight}} on the matter on the belief you're entitled to insert certain things against consensus. You also were blocked for the fifth time for edit warring in that article, with previous ones being at different articles with dispute with other editors, which shows your lack of respect for community decision making. ] (]) 17:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Well, your concept of what was a false consensus has been dismissed by the RfC result, so you should move on from this bitterness and distortion of truth. In reply to Aoidh and Philknight at the Breyers talk page, I stated in my next comment, ''"Yes, a key word <u>unintentionally omitted</u> in my response concerning statements and sources was "verifiable".'' As there are few watchers/editors of the Breyers article (62 as of today, probably many from Unilever who do not edit), I provided statements of facts verified by reliable sources, whereas this simple practice appears to not be in your editing toolkit. | |||
| :::The obligation remaining with you in this discussion is to respond to below in the section, '''The actual content that led to this dispute.''' Let's have your response to that, and your pledge to abstain from editing the Breyers article - you did say on the talk page on 29 Nov that you would "delegate the actual editing to someone else." I think your defiance to respond to challenges in this discussion section affirms my recommendation that you are ABANNED from the Breyers article and IBANNED from attacking me because you are unable to face the facts. ] (]) 18:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::It was a suggestion that someone, meaning neither YOU or I. Not that Zefr continue editing and not I. Your controlling, ] approach was a significant portion of the problem. Additionally, you proposed administrative sanctions against me, but did not tell me about it as required. I only figured out after someone told me about it on my talk page. Why did you do that? ] (]) 19:36, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::You had already been notified of the problem you caused at the Breyers article Now, you are engaged in to avoid answering the Cullen328 paragraphs and the several requests for you to explain and own up to your disruptive behavior and non-collaboration. Regarding OWN, there are few editors at Breyers. I countered your attempts to slander the article with the "antifreeze" term and bogus diet book references by applying verifiable facts and sources. | |||
| :::::OWN:''"Being the primary or sole editor of an article does not constitute ownership, provided that contributions and input from fellow editors are not ignored or immediately disregarded. Editors familiar with the topic and in possession of relevant reliable sources may have watchlisted such articles and may discuss or amend others' edits. This too does not equal ownership, provided it does not marginalise the valid opinions of others and is adequately justified."'' If you had offered valid content and sources, I would have collaborated. | |||
| :::::I'm sure editors have seen enough of your personal grievances expressed here. Please stop. I'm not returning unless an exception occurs. ] (]) 20:41, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *You need to notify Graywalls of this discussion. I have done so for you. In the future, remember to do so yourself. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:'''Oppose''': I have reverted Zefr on 3 occasions on the Breyers article over the last few months. That was because the edits they had made were, at that time, contrary to talk page consensus. The fact that I had not contributed to the article is neither here nor there in that regard. | |||
| *:I have not {{tq|ignored requests on the talk page to collaborate}}, I have simply objected to Zefr's repeated attempts over a 3 month period to re-open a discussion where the consensus has always been against them. | |||
| *:Six different users have previously objected to the changes Zefr has been trying to make and that was clearly a majority of those who commented between August and December 2024. | |||
| *:I accept that the current RfC is going Zefr's way, however that fact should not be used to reinterpret events over the last 4 months where Zefr has historically been in a small minority insufficient to claim a consensus in favour of the changes they wished to make. | |||
| *:Also, the idea that I made a {{tq|hostile attempt to revert a legitimate RfC}} is untrue. As I have pointed out above, my actions were in good faith and it can be seen that I immediately volunteered to revert my removal of the template if I received instruction from an admin to that effect. | |||
| *:I cannot see that I was ever canvassed to appear at the Breyers talk page, I arrived there entirely independently back in November having been aware of the ongoing situation re: the various COI edit requests because the COI edit request queue is the volunteer queue that I spend most of my time here working from. I've probably read pretty much every COI edit request that has been made on Misplaced Pages over the last 6 to 12 months and there are a small number of talk pages that I look at from time to time. | |||
| *:Graywalls and I work on similar cases and sometimes we find ourselves working alongside each other, especially if material has been discussed at ], but occasionally ending up in the same place and on the same side of an argument does not entail tagteaming. ] (]) 22:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' I was the one who suggested RfC in the first place. , because I felt it was not a productive disagreement anymore. Leading up to the RfC, there was rough talk page consensus to include a mention pf propylene glycol, but if consensus in RfC determines that it should be left out, I have no intention of fighting it. Someone raised a concern there was only one source, so I added another source. Other than this, I've not really touched contentious parts of this article recently. I'm not sure why Axad12 removed the RfC and I can't speak for their actions, but the accusation of Tagteam is unwarranted. I've taken deferent steps to not continue to engage in back and forth edit warring and I'd like to believe that I'm approaching this the correct way. I do want to bring up concerns about Zefr's civility though. Please see ] for some concerns I raised. I also find leaving snarky comment about being a PhD student who disagreed on contents troubling ]. {{re|Aoidh}} also felt Zefr was "weaponing" claims of edit warring to restore their "preferred version" earlier on in the dispute. Please see ] ] (]) 02:34, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Attention to ] per WP:DE. This user is engaged in editing Arab-Israeli articles where he, as I see it, is on a personal mission. While I believe he has violated pretty much every policy and guideline we have in the months he has been here, I will limit diffs to a few of his recent edits (mostly from Dec. 3 - 8): | |||
| *:Graywalls, I think you were correct to recommend an RFC. Hopefully the RFC will reach a consensus. ] (]) 03:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::I'd just like to echo that sentiment. I'm all in favour of consensus. | |||
| *::My position on this article hasn't been motivated by a partisan view on Propylene Glycol but has simply been in relation to serving the consensus position as it stood at the time. That is the approach I hope I adopt on all Misplaced Pages articles. If the consensus alters on this article (as seems likely) then I'll adopt the same approach in relation to serving the ''new'' consensus. | |||
| *::My primary area of interest on this website is COI issues. I'm simply not interested in content disputes or in pushing any kind of POV on Misplaced Pages. I'm not the sort of user who flagrantly disregards a newly emerging consensus by editing contrary to the outcome of an RfC. | |||
| *::I'd welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that going forwards (i.e. without an article ban). ] (]) 06:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::* The mention by Graywalls for an RfC on 27 Dec had no influence on the one existing. As an uncomplicated process, an editor truly sincere in having community input would have posed a simple objective question. Graywalls, why didn't you take 5 minutes and create the RfC question you wanted? What would have been your RfC question? | |||
| *::Specifically for propylene glycol (you are still defending its use in the article by - see comments about this book in the RfC): {{tq|what do you believe propylene glycol does in a frozen dessert and what would you prefer the article to say about propylene glycol? I have asked for this clarification on the talk page many times and in the DRN, but you ignored the opportunity to collaborate and clarify.}} | |||
| *:: | |||
| *::Your reverts in article history and combative talk page behavior over months revealed a persistent intent to disparage the Breyers article, focus on the "antifreeze" slur (mainly promoting ), and restore a skeletal version having no sources more recent than 2018 , after That version also has misinformation under the section 'Ice cream', falsely stating that Breyers changed their ice cream ingredients by using other additives, which in fact, were used to evolve a new category of frozen desserts not intended to be ice cream. I believe you know this, but you and Axad12 persisted to favor misinformation for the article. | |||
| *::The RfC I provided came from steps in the lead of ]: 1) generally poor talk page progress, where one editor seeking facts verified by current sources was opposed by Graywalls, Adax12, and {{u|NutmegCoffeeTea}}, all defending a version including "antifreeze"; 2) an RSN post where Graywalls argued that a web link by the Seattle PI made the Motley Fool article an RS; 3) for which Graywalls, Axad12, and NutmegCoffeeTea abstained from collaboration to improve the article; 4) , which appears to be <u>willfully ignored</u> by Axad12 and Graywalls, who responded only with hostility and defiance against the facts; 5) seeking third opinions from admins, first by BD2412 (talk page on 29-30 Nov) and by , resulting in verbose trolling by these two users. Axad12's response on 27 Dec was to . | |||
| *::Axad12 and Graywalls should be ABANNED from the Breyers article for exhibiting 1) hostility on the talk page to good faith proposals for making the article better, and 2) persistence to perpetuate misinformation on propylene glycol. Simply, what history shows that either editor has tried to improve the Breyers article? Both users meet most of the definitions of ] for the article, its talk page, and the RfC. ] (]) 18:17, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Zefr, I've already indicated on several occasions that I welcome and support the developing new consensus. Graywalls has made a similar comment below. That being the case, I don't really see what purpose an article ban would be intended to serve. | |||
| *:::Admittedly there has been some quite heated disagreement over recent months, but it seems that we all now have the robust talkpage consensus that we were hoping for in one way or another and that all three of us are happy to move forward in support of that consensus. | |||
| *:::You were clearly in the minority for quite a long time and I can appreciate that you found that experience frustrating. However, to continue to make allegations above of bad faith, trolling, tagteaming, etc. about those who constituted the valid majority for several months is just an attempt to perpetuate strife on an issue which is now, as far as I can see, satisfactorily resolved. ] (]) 19:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Filed under: sometimes you hurt articles by treating COI editors as the enemy. The problem here is two users who should really know better edit-warring over the course of ''months'' to reinstate TikTok diet influencer silliness into a Misplaced Pages article, repeatedly reinstating ] content (implicitly, if not explicitly). We currently treat a little "avoid antifreeze" bubble in a diet book (which includes Breyers in a list of brands) and a book published by one of RFK Jr's antivax publishers as ] for including the insinuation that an FDA-approved and much-conspiratorialized additive is harmful. They've been repeatedly removed, but two editors keep putting them back, whether because of a misunderstanding of ]/] or in pursuit of COI purification. — <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 13:24, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:I take your point but I think you're misjudging the situation somewhat. Prior to the opening of the current RfC it was approximately 6 or 7 users in favour of inclusion vs 3 or 4 favouring exclusion. I only reverted the attempts at exclusion because those attempts were contrary to the talk page consensus. | |||
| *:I'm perfectly open to the suggestion that that consensus position was wrong but the simple fact of the matter was that there was ''at that time'' no consensus in favour of exclusion. | |||
| *:It has only been in the last couple of days that the requesting editor has been able to demonstrate a consensus in favour of exclusion. And that's great, I have no problem with that at all. In fact I welcome it. | |||
| *:My understanding is that editors wishing to make changes to article text should not do so if there is a consensus against what they are trying to do, and that under such circumstances an edit can be (indeed ''should be'') reverted. If I'm mistaken on that score then I'm perfectly happy to take instruction. However, I really want to stress that my actions were based primarily upon that reasoning and were made in good faith. ] (]) 14:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::@], you should not revert something because other editors want it to be reverted. You should only make content changes that you personally support. This is necessary for BRD to work. See ] for an explanation of why. ] (]) 17:25, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:{{re|Rhododendrites}}, the antifreeze matter is ] since I believe everyone's pretty much agreed it doesn't need to be in there. Zefr has taken issues with me, Axad12, NutMegCoffee and possibly some others. They've tried to get the article "set in place" to their preferred version, but that was declined admin {{u|Daniel Case}} who determined it to be content dispute ]. Zefr inferring alleging I was <s>"uncooperative"</s> <u>not collaborating/cooperating in the way that he was hoping</u> in DR, but I don't believe that to be so. <u>There was nothing intentional on my part to not cooperate.</u> I'll see if {{re|Robert McClenon}} would like to share their observation on that since they closed the dispute. | |||
| *:https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Breyers/Archive_2#c-Rusalkii-20240814014600-Inkian_Jason-20240801145900 here's another uninvolved editoring erring on the side of inclusion. A one sentence mention of propylene glycol isn't something that is out of line and as others have mentioned, it falls under contents dispute and thus the choice to leave in/out rests on consensus. Reading through the current plus the archived discussions, up until the RfC, the general consensus is in support of having PG mention and Zefr's preferred version shouldn't trump consensus. As I mentioned, if consensus changes with the RfC, I'm not opposed to going with that. ] (]) 17:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC) (adjusted ] (]) 13:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC)) | |||
| *::For the record, I never stated the word "uncooperative" at DRN or the Breyers talk page, but rather "non-collaborative", as discussed in the thread with Robert McClenon below. | |||
| *::"Set in place to their preferred version" and "Zefr's preferred version shouldn't trump consensus" should be translated to using "facts verified by reliable sources", which is the simple goal for the Breyers article that Graywalls has obstructed over months. | |||
| *::It's incredible that Graywalls says even today above, knowing the comments on the RfC and months of being presented with facts and sources about why propylene glycol is safely used in thousands of manufactured foods: ''"A one sentence mention of propylene glycol isn't something that is out of line and as others have mentioned, it falls under contents dispute and thus the choice to leave in/out rests on consensus."'' | |||
| *::Here's your chance to tell everyone: | |||
| *::Why do you feel propylene glycol was used in Breyers frozen desserts (in 2013, not since)? What concern do you have about it, and what government or scientific source says it's unsafe in the amounts regulated by federal laws? Give a sentence here that you think meets consensus and uses a reliable source. ] (]) 01:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::You're right, you did not use that specific word. I've corrected my response due to wording. ] (]) 13:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===A Non-Mediator's Statement=== | |||
| * removing the flag of Lebanon from the article ''2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict'': | |||
| I am not entirely sure why ] has pinged me about this dispute, saying that I "closed this dispute". The accuracy of the statement that I "closed this dispute" depends on what is meant by "this dispute". | |||
| I closed the ] thread, ], on 12 December. I obviously didn't resolve a dispute that has been continuing for another three weeks, and the claim that I closed the dispute looks to me like an attempt to confuse the jury. ] had opened the DRN thread on 3 December, complaining about the insertion of the word ] and of the mention of ]. I was not entirely sure beyond the mention of ] what the issues were. There were questions about what the procedure was for handling a ] dispute; I think that Zefr was said to be the one. There was a long question that may have been about whether ] is voluntary; DRN is voluntary. Then Zefr said that the case could be withdrawn because no one else was commenting. The disputants other than Zefr never did say exactly what the article content issues were, perhaps because they didn't want to discuss article content, and were not required to discuss article content. If anyone is implying that I resolved or settled anything, I have no idea what it was. | |||
| * page move, moving ''Sirhan Sirhan (militant)'' to ''Sirhan Sirhan (murderer)'' | |||
| I see that the dispute either was continuing in other forums for three weeks, or has reopened. I see that ] edit-warred to prevent an RFC from running, making vague but noisy statements about ]. I don't know who is said to be working for Unilever or for anyone else. It is clear that this dispute is longer on antagonism than on clarity. ] (]) 22:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * deleting material properly sourced to BBC: , ABC News: , PBS, others; blanking text in references: | |||
| :{{re|Robert McClenon}}, I pinged you, because I felt you'd be a good commentator to evaluate whether you also felt I was "not cooperative" in the process as Zefr says. I tried to participate, but it got closed shortly after I posted a comment in it. ] (]) 22:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * adding material based on partisan sources without independent verification, e.g.: | |||
| ::Was that purposely mis-stated to be provocative and mislead the discussion here? | |||
| ::I said you were <u>non-collaborative</u>, which describes your behavior throughout your editing history on the Breyers article, its talk page, and the DRN. You refused collaboration at DRN, which is the whole point of the process. DRN FAQ: ''"refusing participation can be perceived as a refusal to collaborate, and is not conducive to consensus-building."'' | |||
| ::You were notified about the , and you posted a general notice about it on the , so you were aware of the process, but ignored it. Meanwhile, your editing history over 6-12 Dec shows dozens of edits, | |||
| ::You made no attempt to collaborate at DRN, posting only one off-topic | |||
| ::I requested closure of the DRN on 12 Dec due to non-participation by you and the others. On 13 Dec, . cc: {{u|Robert McClenon}}. ] (]) 00:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{re|Zefr}}, As been said to you by others, participation is not mandatory. Other editors are not required to and you shouldn't reasonably expect them to prioritize their real life schedule or their Misplaced Pages time on dispute that you runs on your own schedule to your DRN you started around your own schedule on your own terms. I have initially waited to give others time to comment as their time allows. I'm also not particularly fond of your berating, incivil, bad faith assuming comments directed at myself, as well as a few other editors and it's exhausting discussing with you, so I'm not feeling particularly compelled to give your matters priority in my Misplaced Pages time. ] (]) 06:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ====A Possibly Requested Detail==== | |||
| Okay. If the question is specifically whether ] was uncooperative at ], then I can state that they were not uncooperative and did not obstruct or disrupt DRN. Graywalls took very little part in the DRN proceeding before I closed it. They were not required to take part, although they say that they would have made a statement if the case had stayed open a little longer. The antagonism that I saw was between ] and ], and I collapsed an exchange between them. I did not read what I am told were long previous discussions, because I expect the disputants at DRN to begin by telling me concisely what each of them wants to change in the article (or what they want to leave the same that another editor wants to change). Graywalls was not uncooperative at DRN. | |||
| ] (]) 00:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Okay. ] is making a slightly different statement, that ] did not ] at DRN. That is correct. And I noted above that their mention that I had closed the dispute depended on what was meant by the "dispute". and looked like an attempt to confuse the jury. ] (]) 03:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::@] Zefr did not use the word uncooperative although did say uncollaborative and I used the two interchangeably in my ping. I did participate in it ]. I haven't participated in DRN until that point, so I wasn't really sure how it worked. ] (]) 13:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===The actual content that led to this dispute=== | |||
| Two month ago, ] included this shockingly bad content: {{tpq|As of 2014, some flavors of Breyer's ice cream contains propylene glycol as an additive. Propylene glycol is a chemical commonly used in a car antifreeze and it is clear fluid made by "treating propylene with chlorinated water to form the chlorohydrin, which is then converted to the glycol, an alcohol, by treating it with a sodium carbonate solution." Propylene glycol is formulated into Breyer's fat-free and Carb Smart ice cream to make it easier to scoop.}} The notion that an article about an ice cream company should include a detailed description of how a ] food additive is manufactured is bizarre enough, as is the cherrypicked and glaringly misleading assertion about "antifreeze", but the reference used to support the Breyers claim was a book called ''Eat It to Beat It!: Banish Belly Fat-and Take Back Your Health-While Eating the Brand-Name Foods You Love!'' written by a quack/crank diet profiteer named David Zinczenko. I invite any editor to take a search engine look at Zinczenko's body of work, and come away with the conclusion that his writings are anything other than fringe and unreliable. Despite the glaringly obviously non-neutral and tendentious problems with this shockingly bad content, editors including most prominently {{u|Graywalls}} and {{u|Axad12}} dug in their heels, fighting a reargard action for nearly two months, determined to make this mundane routine ice cream company look as bad as possible. Their self-justification seems to be that big bad corporations have ''no right whatsover'' to try to remove atrociously bad content about their products from Misplaced Pages, and that any editor who tries to assist the evil corporation is also evil by association. I am not an advocate for corporations ''per se'', but I am an advocate for corporations being treated ] like all other topics, rather with disdain and contempt, which was the case here, as I see it. I do not know what the best outcome is here, but I certainly encourage these two editors to refrain from any other unjustified and poorly referenced anti-corporate diatribes that go on for months on end. ] (]) 07:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :A striking and shocking aspect of this sordid situation is that two editors, {{u|Graywalls}} and {{u|Axad12}} were able to concoct a false "consensus" supporting various versions of this garbage content. And then when another editor tried to start a RFC about the appallingly bad content, {{u|Axad12}} tried over and over and over again to stop the RFC and defend the atrocious content rather than correcting it, aided and abetted by {{u|Graywalls}}. When the RFC actually went live, it soon became clear that many editors agreed that the content these two editors advocated for was utterly inappropriate. ] (]) 08:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Cullen, | |||
| :As per my comments above, my motivation was simply in reflecting the consensus on the talk page at the time. I did not {{tq|concoct}} that consensus, at least 5 users other than me were against excluding the material. | |||
| :I have never had any particularly strong opinion one way or the other on the content issue and I try as best as I can not to get involved in content disputes. I have not {{tq|dug in heels}} or attempted to promote any kind of fringe opinion and nor have I engaged in {{tq|anti-corporate diatribes that go on for months on end}}. | |||
| :Similarly I do not hold the view that {{tq|any editor who tries to assist the evil corporation is also evil by association}}, or any opinion even vaguely resembling that view. On the contrary, I have often implemented COI edit requests on behalf of corporations or have pointed out to corporate employees how such requests would need to be amended to conform with sourcing or other requirements. Repeatedly engaging in that activity would presumably make me very {{tq|evil}} indeed, in my own eyes, if I held the view that you attribute to me. | |||
| :I reverted the Breyer edits in good faith because there was no consensus in favour of them. If I was incorrect on a point of policy in that regard then fair enough, however please do not attempt to attribute to me sentiments which I do not harbour. | |||
| :Also, I did not attempt to stop the RfC {{tq|over and over and over again}}. I removed the tag twice, then requested guidance from administrators and immediately replaced the tag when requested to do so. The tag was removed, in all, for a matter of minutes and had no meaningful impact on the progress of the RfC. I have accepted elsewhere that I now appreciate that the basis on which I removed the tag was inappropriate. I have also stated that {{tq|From my standpoint wasn't a process that I was familiar with - but I can see from the many excellent contributions here that this is the best way of resolving content disputes}}. I have also stated that I welcome and support the new consensus. ] (]) 08:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Try as you will to justify your participation in this debacle , {{u|Axad12}}, but any uninvolved editor can review the edit histories and see that you fought very hard, over and over again for months, to keep garbage content in the encyclopedia just to stick it to a corporation that you obviously dislike because they tried to correct egregious errors about their products. ] (]) 08:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Can you provide a diff there to indicate that I {{tq|obviously dislike}} Breyers or (their parent company) Unilever, or indeed that I consider either to be {{tq|evil}}? | |||
| :::To the best of my recollection, I've only ever made 3 mainspace edits to the Breyers article - each time on the stated basis in the edit summary that the edit I was reverting was contrary to consensus. | |||
| :::I've re-read the extensive talk page discussions in recent days and I can only see that I ever commented on the COI angle and the nature of the consensus. Those comments were based on my understanding of policy at the time. I do not see {{tq|anti-corporate diatribes}} or evidence that I {{tq|obviously dislike}} Breyers or Unilever. | |||
| :::Indeed, I do not hold any particularly strong views on Breyers, Unilever or any other corporations. ] (]) 09:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::As I said, {{u|Axad12}}, all any uninvolved editor needs to do is review your 37 edits to ] to see how determined you have been over the last two months to maintain various versions of this biased non-neutral content, and how enthusiastic you have been in denouncing the various editors who have been calling for neutrality. Your consistent theme has been that a corporation does not deserve neutrality, because a bogus consensus has been conjured up. ] (]) 09:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::My activity on that talk page has solely been in relation to pointing out what I felt (rightly or wrongly) was a valid COI concern and observing that from Aug to Dec there has never been a consensus in favour of exclusion. | |||
| :::::Anything beyond that is simply you attributing motives that do not exist. | |||
| :::::I have never stated or implied that {{tq|a corporation does not deserve neutrality}} and nor do I hold such a view. | |||
| :::::I happily admit that I'm quite animated and enthusiastic about COI issues and reverting edits which appear to be contrary to consensus. With the benefit of hindsight probably I should have let go of those issues at an earlier stage and vacated the field for those who actually had an appetite to argue on content grounds. | |||
| :::::I'd also point out that for a significant part of the last 2 months I had actually unsubscribed from the relevant talkpage threads and only ended up getting involved again due to being summoned to the Dispute Resolution thread. If I had been {{tq|determined over the last two months to maintain various versions of biased non-neutral content}} then hopefully it stands to reason that I would not have unsubscribed in that way - thus resulting in a situation where I was actually completely unaware of much of the talkpage and mainspace activity over the period that you refer to. ] (]) 10:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I find the defense of your actions very weak. You've said several times that your {{tq|motivation was simply in reflecting the consensus on the talk page at the time}}. You are also obligated to ''actually'' look at the disputed content and the sources supporting it. Why didn't you do that? Why were you unable to see what multiple editors in the RfC are commenting about? You shouldn't just blindly revert content like that, without taking a look for yourself to see if the complaint about the disputed content has any merit, like it being reliably sourced and due for inclusion.]] 10:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::That's a very fair question. | |||
| :::::::The answer is that I was inclined to believe the opinions of editors much more experienced than myself who were against exclusion, particularly the editor who turned down the original COI edit request (whose work on COI edit requests I have the greatest of respect for). | |||
| :::::::User Whatamidoing has already pointed out above that my error lay in accepting those users' opinions. I agree with Whatamidoing's observation there. | |||
| :::::::I can only say that what I did was done in good faith based on my understanding of policy at the time. I now know where I erred (in several different ways) and I am glad to have received instruction in that regard. | |||
| :::::::However, I really cannot accept the repeated suggestion that I vindictively masterminded a long anti-corporate campaign to keep bad material in an article. That suggestion is fundamentally not true. ] (]) 10:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Policy at the time, and the policy now, as it always has been, when you make an edit, you are responsible for that edit. So by reverting the content back into the article, you were then responsible for that edit, and also partly to blame for this garbage content being kept in the article when it clearly shouldn't have been.]] 11:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Yes, I entirely accept that. | |||
| :::::::::For clarity, when I said {{tq|my understanding of policy at the time}} I meant ''my understanding of policy'' at the time - I wasn't trying to suggest that the policy has changed since I made those edits. | |||
| :::::::::What I am saying is that those edits were not made with malice, they were made because I accepted the opinions of other users more experienced than myself, opinions which I now know that I ought to have questioned. ] (]) 11:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::You demonstrated poor judgement. Will you stay away from that article? — ] (]) 11:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::As I said earlier in this thread, I am 100% supportive of the new consensus in favour of excluding the previously disputed material. | |||
| :::::::::::Virtually all of my time on Misplaced Pages is spent at COIN and dealing with COI edit requests. I'm not the sort of user who spends their time edit warring over POV fringe material and generally being disruptive. | |||
| :::::::::::So, the last thing I would ever do is attempt to reinstall material where a very robust consensus at RfC has indicated that it should be excluded. | |||
| :::::::::::I would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that I can be trusted in that regard. ] (]) 12:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::Judgement isn't about following consensus, it’s about making considered decisions. — ] (]) 14:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::Yes, quite so. I have acknowledged my error in that regard in my first response to Isaidnoway, above, re: the very useful input I received from Whatamidoing. ] (]) 17:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::Axad, if I read what you wrote correctly, and please correct me if I misunderstand: ''I will stay away from that article because I support the current consensus''. My concern is what if consensus was to shift on that article? ] ] 17:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::Apologies if my earlier response was unclear. My point was that I have absolutely no intention of edit warring over the previously disputed material (or any other material) so I don't see what purpose it would serve to ban me from the article. | |||
| :::::::::::::I have only ever made (to the best of my knowledge) 3 previous edits to the article (1 in November and 2 in December?). These were all on the basis of a misunderstanding on a point of policy which has been pointed out to me above and which I have happily acknowledged and accepted. The issue at stake was not that I harbour any partisan view in relation to the content dispute, it was that I edited to reflect the views of other editors whose opinions I respected on the matter in question. | |||
| :::::::::::::I do not see any reason for the community to anticipate that I would made a similar misunderstanding of policy going forwards. | |||
| :::::::::::::Hopefully this clarifies... ] (]) 17:39, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I've been expecting something to happen around ], whom I ran into several months ago during a ]. What I noticed back in October was that Axad12 seemed to be ''clerking the noticeboard'', making prosecutorial noises, and sometimes unsupported accusations (ex: {{tq|...the existence of COI seems quite clear...}} , {{tq|...in relation to your undeclared conflict of interest...}} , {{tq|As I said, the fact that there was a significant undeclared conflict of interest in relation to editing on Paralympic Australia-related articles was demonstrated some years ago.}} ) towards what they thought of as COI editors (this was about whether ] had failed to adequately announce their conflict with Paralympic Australia, where they've been openly helping as a volunteer on our community's behalf for many years, and after they had just made an ]). I often find such clerking of noticeboards by relatively unseasoned users to be troublesome; Axad12 has 490 edits at COIN, about 12% of their total 3801 edits (but about a third of the roughly 1500 edits total on COIN since September). If you use a hammer all day, you might begin to think that all objects are potentially nails. ] (]) 12:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Rereading the discussion this morning 90 days later, it reads worse than I made it sound above. An uninvolved admin and chastised Axad12 in that close. The OP asked the thread closure be reversed, so the close comments were moved down to the end of the thread. ] (]) 14:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I think it would be a good idea for {{u|Axad12}} to take a break from ] and associated matters and concentrate on other areas of Misplaced Pages for a few months. I was going to use a cliché here, but I see BusterD's already used it in the last sentence of the post before last, so won't. ] (]) 14:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Only so many ways to screw in a lightbulb. ] (]) 15:06, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::In fairness, the overwhelming majority of my posts at COIN over the last year or so have been simple helpful contributions. The two matters discussed above were atypical and in both cases I've taken on board the advice I was given. | |||
| :::::If (per the figures above) I've been making about a third of all the contributions at COIN over that period then my behaviour would have been reported here long ago if I was either disruptive or incompetent. | |||
| :::::That said, I won't deny that I've been seriously considering retiring from Misplaced Pages over the last two months. The only reason I've not done so is because other users have specifically encouraged me to carry on because they value my work at COIN and on COI issues generally. | |||
| :::::All I can say is that what I have done, I have done in good faith and when I have occasionally erred I have learned lessons. I have acknowledged above that I've made mistakes and I'm grateful to those who have given me advice. ] (]) 15:34, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::You've been reported here now. Over stuff that's current, and applicable. In that matter, you seemed to believe your expertise in COI matters allows you to decide what constitutes a valid RFC. That seems like a problem to me. I'm providing evidence on related behavioral matters. Having made one third of all recent edits on a noticeboard ''is not the high achievement you might think it is''. Stay or retire, but learn to better assume good faith here, even when dealing with COI contributors. Most accounts are fine. You've been working in a narrow area where you deal with many bad faith users. I can understand why that might wear on any editor. The proof will be if you can incorporate these valid complaints into your future action. ] (]) 16:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Buster, I know that we've had crossed words in the past so I'm grateful for your understanding and your measured response above. Yes, I deal with many bad faith users and yes it does wear on me sometimes. | |||
| :::::::I don't claim any great expertise in COI matters but I do have the time to dedicate to the project and I've picked up a decent awareness of the methods that can be used to detect and prevent UPE/PROMO etc activity. | |||
| :::::::I believe that in the past when I've been given advice on points of policy I've taken that advice on board and would hope to continue to do so in the future. ] (]) 17:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::This comment is not about you, but you might be interested in it: I've been thinking for years that a rotating duty system might be helpful. Of course we're all ], but we might be less stressed, and get more representative results, if we each spent a week at ANI and a month at RSN and a week at CCI each year than if one editor spends all year at ANI and another spends all year at RSN (and nobody is at CCI – anyone who is looking for an opportunity to deal with really serious problems should please consider spending some time at ]. The few regulars there will be so grateful, and who knows? You might find that you like it). ] (]) 18:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::]? ] (]) 20:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I do think that it's worth zooming out and looking at the article as a whole. Comparing the version from to the makes it obvious that the tone of the article has become vastly more promotional, with much more focus on glowy feel-good aspects that are only mentioned in lower-quality sources (the story about the original creator hand-churning it?) And the ''context'' of the additive section has changed from emphasizing that it was cost-cutting (well-supported in the sources) to the weird {{tq|In 2013, Breyers introduced frozen desserts made with food additives (section above) that were intended to create smooth, low-calorie products. However, the new desserts evoked complaints by some consumers who were accustomed to the traditional "all-natural" Breyers ice cream.}}, which 100% reads like marketing-speak (downplaying the reaction by making it sound like it's just that people loved the old version ''so much''. In fact, the current version doesn't mention Breyer's cost-cutting measures at all, even though it's a massive aspect of coverage.) That doesn't necessarily justify the version above, but it's important to remember that this was originally a one-word mention in a larger list - {{tq|Following similar practices by several of their competitors, Breyers' list of ingredients has expanded to include thickeners, low-cost sweeteners, food coloring and low-cost additives — including natural additives such as tara gum and carob bean gum; artificial additives such as maltodextrin and propylene glycol; and common artificially separated and extracted ingredients such as corn syrup, whey, and others}}, the longstanding wording, is not unreasonable and doesn't really imply that there's anything particularly dangerous about propylene glycol, just that it's an additive. I think the context of that larger shift to a much more promotional tone to the article is significant (and looking over talk, most of the actual dispute has focused on that.) --] (]) 17:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:I agree that the longstanding wording doesn't really imply there's anything particularly dangerous about propylene glycol. But the doesn't even mention "maltodextrin and propylene glycol", that I can find, so those two particular additives were not even verifiable at the time. And then propylene glycol was removed, and when it was as "a chemical commonly used in a car antifreeze", was really when this dispute seem to take a turn for the worse to keep this content in the article.]] 18:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::@], about this {{xt|And the context of the additive section has changed from emphasizing that it was cost-cutting (well-supported in the sources)}} – I don't know what other sources say, but the ''cited'' sources don't say that at all. The cited sources are both from Canadian dairy farmers' marketing associations, saying that their product is good and costs more than imported oils, but doesn't actually ] a claim that Breyers uses imported oils, or that Breyers has done anything to cut their costs. ] (]) 18:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::(As this is strictly a question of content, please consider replying at ] instead of here.) ] (]) 18:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::{{re|Aquillion|WhatamIdoing|Isaidnoway}} would you all mind if I copy over the thread, starting at Aquillion's "I do think that...." over to Breyer's talk? ] (]) 02:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::I don't mind, but my contribution to this thread is relatively minor. ] (]) 02:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ====Thanks, and a Diddly Question==== | |||
| I would like to thank ] for providing the background and content information. I also have a possibly minor question for ]. They edit-warred to try to stop the RFC on the content, and said that there was an {{tq|exceptionally serious abuse}} of the ] process. I may not have done enough background research, but I don't see where they have identified who has been the paid editor or undisclosed paid editor, or what the ] content is. If there has been paid editing, who has done it, and have they been dealt with? ] (]) 17:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Robert, probably the best single overview of the COI issue is given in this post . | |||
| :My impression at the time of the events, and subsequently, was that the activity was designed to distort the COI edit request process. I still feel that what happened re: the COI edit requests was irregular but I note that no other user seems to have supported me in that regard so I've not taken the matter any further. Similarly, while I felt that those events had a bearing on the RfC I now accept that the RfC relates solely to the content matter specifically under discussion. ] (]) 18:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I find your characterization of events inaccurate. "we have the resubmission of the request to remove the disputed material in a COI edit request thread here " | |||
| ::But this was not a resubmission. was to remove a list of ingredients (including propylene glycol) which was sourced to a blog and which the COI editor says is outdated and doesn't reflect current ingredients. Meanwhile, the link you give as an example of "resubmission" was the COI editor requesting the removal of . Both requests involve propylene glycol, but they are clearly separate requests concerning separate content. | |||
| ::We want COI editors to propose changes to talk pages. The fact that this COI editor, apparently frustrated by a lack of responses to their requests went to the to request someone look at their edits, and then went to an active participant of said Wikiproject and requested they look at their requests, is not suspicious or abnormal. And I think it's highly inappropriate how Axad12 argued at length on the talk page that User:Zefr was "cultivated" by the COI editor "to do their bidding". I support other editors in recommending Axad12 take a break from COI issues. ] (]) 00:12, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I'd just like to stress here that I only linked to my post above because Robert McClenon asked for the background to the COI element. I was not trying to re-open that issue or to request that any action be taken on that issue. I have already accepted that there is absolutely no support for the position I adopted there. ] (]) 04:00, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::This doesn't answer my question. The link is to a conversation between ], ], and administrator ]. The links from that conversation show that there is antagonism between Axad12 and Graywalls on the one hand and ] on the other hand. They show that there is discussion of ], but they show no direct evidence of ] editing by any editor. They don't answer who is said to be a paid editor making edit requests, aside from the fact that paid editors are supposed to make edit requests rather than editing directly, so I am still not sure what the issue is. I haven't seen any evidence of abuse, let alone of {{tq|exceptionally serious abuse}} that warranted edit-warring to prevent an RFC. ] (]) 05:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The paid editor is ] who is open and transparent about their COI. The edit request which began this episode was when Inkian Jason ] where they pinged ] about having uploaded a photo of the company's logo and asking if they would be willing to add it to the article. Secondary to that they also asked about the appropriateness of the recently added propylene glycol content. The COI issues centered around whether Inkian Jason "cultivated" Zefr by pinging him to remove the added propylene glycol text after they had ] about the various ingredients used in the ice cream (which included propylene glycol). ] (]) 05:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Proposal 2: Article Ban of Axad12 from Breyers=== | |||
| * consistently removing warnings on own talk page, e.g: , including removing an olive branch response by one editor addressed not to him, but to a third editor: | |||
| {{atop|status=Not Implemented|1=Axax12 has voluntarily agreed to avoid editing ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:20, 11 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| (Proposal 1 has been lost up in the early postings.) I propose that ] be ] from ] and ] for six months. ] (]) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' as proposer. ] (]) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:Robert, I believe I have acknowledged and accepted my various errors in some detail above. I would be grateful for the opportunity to take on board and apply the very valuable input I have received from various more experienced users over the course of this thread. I'd therefore suggest a counter-proposal, that I will voluntary undertake not to edit the Breyers article or make any contribution at the talk page, not just for the next 6 months but forever. I will also refrain from any interaction with Zefr and refrain from making any future comment on the matters under discussion in this thread (once this thread is complete). In addition, if I go back on any of those voluntary undertakings I would be happy for it to be upon pain of an indefinite site ban. ] (]) 04:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::Axad12, I wonder what your intent is with your counterproposal. Robert McClenon has proposed an article ban for 6 months. Your counterproposal is, in effect, an indefinite ], an ] with Zefr, and a ] on the topic of propylene glycol in Byers, all without the usual escalating blocks for violations, instead jumping straight to an indef. While this would solve the issue, it's much more draconian. What's your reasoning for requesting harsher restrictions? ] (]) 04:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::The purpose of the counter proposal was simply to indicate that I have only good intentions going forwards and I am happy to demonstrate those intentions upon pain of the strongest possible sanction. Evidently I wouldn't have made the counter proposal if I wasn't serious about the undertaking, as I'm aware that eyes will understandably be upon me going forwards. | |||
| *:::As I've said before, I'm a good faith user and I'm amenable to taking instruction when I have erred. I would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that without being subject to a formal ban. ] (]) 05:02, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::I fail to see a distinction between what you proposed and a formal ban. Your proposal is on {{tq|q=y|pain of an indefinite site ban}}. "A rose by any other name" comes to mind here. Your voluntary adherence to the terms of the proposal would be indistinguishable from being compelled into adherence by threat of an indef. If you still want this course of action, fair enough, I just don't think it'll do what you're envisioning. ] (]) 05:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::I really don't recommend that, Axad. Sure, take a break from that article if you want to. But it's really easy to forget about a dispute years later, or even for a company to change names and suddenly you're on that article without knowing it. ] (]) 04:53, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::For clarification, I would be happy to undertake voluntarily any measures that the community may suggest and upon pain of any sanction that the community may suggest. I believe that there is value to undertaking such measures voluntarily because it allows one to demonstrate that one can be trusted. | |||
| *:::Also just a brief note to say that in about an hour and a quarter's time I will have no internet access for the next 12-14 hours. Any lack of response during that period will simply be for that reason and not due to a wilful refusal to communicate. Hopefully I have indicated above that I have been happy to respond to all questions. | |||
| *:::No doubt matters will progress in my absence and I will find out my fate upon my return. ] (]) 05:18, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support''' as less stringent than what Axad has proposed above within this section, but still prevents further disruption. ] (]) 06:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * and finally, what I read, perhaps wrongfully, as a suggestion to editors of WikiProject Israel to take the edit wars over ] to other country articles in the region, I quote: ''"See the concerns over Talk:Israel#Permanent semi-protection. I wonder how we can address the issue that Israel's article will be attacked fervently but it seems that nobody is concerned with articles concerning Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Iran... ... I feel that this line of thought is an attack on Israel's sovregnity as state and I just wonder if there can be some perspective or edits by us on other country articles in the region atleast to attempt to balance the heavy and undue bias."'', (partial quote) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' because {{u|Axad12}} seems to have taken on board the criticism (much of which came from me) and we don't need to be vindictive. ] (]) 08:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. This episode has largely been a series of poor judgements by Axad12 perhaps coloured by their enthusiasm for COI matters but feedback has been given and acknowledged. I also oppose Axad12's counter proposal. --] (]) 10:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Given Cullen328's comment. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 13:25, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' per above. I just don't see a need for such strict measures. ] (]) 16:22, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' the formal sanction, but I do support Axad12s voluntary sanction = {{tq|I will voluntary undertake not to edit the Breyers article or make any contribution at the talk page, not just for the next 6 months but forever. I will also refrain from any interaction with Zefr ... I wouldn't have made the counter proposal if I wasn't serious about the undertaking}}.]] 22:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| ===Proposal 3: Article Ban of Axad12 from COIN=== | |||
| I should provide additional diffs on request. I briefly wrote about this editor's behaviour three months ago, here: . There was a brief discussion on AN/I last month which involved the editor and a bad faith request to have a page unprotected: | |||
| {{atop|status=Not Implemented|1=Axad12 seems to have agreed to step back from COIN, and there isn't consensus for this. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:19, 11 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| . You should note that I was involved in a dispute with the editor in August | |||
| Clerking at COIN seems to have given ] the idea that everyone whom they don't know is probably a paid editor, and something has given them the idea that they can identify "exceptionally serious abuse" without providing direct evidence. I propose that ] be ] from ] for two months. ] (]) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| , but I also received some kind words from him | |||
| *'''Support''' as proposer. ] (]) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| . I'm generally not editing the same articles as him, we crossed paths as I was working on the NPOV backlog. | |||
| *:Robert, just a brief note to say that I do not believe that {{tq|everyone whom don't know is probably a paid editor}}. The overwhelming majority of my contributions at COIN are simple constructive contributions and the matter described above is highly atypical. ] (]) 04:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' because {{u|Axad12}} seems to have taken on board the criticism (much of which came from me) and we don't need to be vindictive. ] (]) 08:44, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. This episode has largely been a series of poor judgements by Axad12 perhaps coloured by their enthusiasm for COI matters but feedback has been given and acknowledged. --] (]) 10:12, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Given Cullen328's comment. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 13:25, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I would prefer it if Axad12's voluntary commitment was to stay away from ] rather than the company article in particular. It is very unhealthy, both for Misplaced Pages and for the particular user, for anything like a third of the edits on any noticeboard to be from any one user. ] (]) 15:18, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' this is a good idea, and not vindictive. It will do Axad12 some good to get away from the COIN for awhile, and get out there and roam around Misplaced Pages and see where else they can contribute constructively.]] 16:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:I think a formal ban is unnecessary. Axad has done a remarkably good job of articulating a positive response to this incident, and it's to his credit that he has reacted so constructively under such pressure. | |||
| *:I also think it's good for everyone to try something different on occasion. I think it's easier to walk away for a bit if you're sure that others will step up to fill your place. So with such proposals (not just this one), I'd love to see people saying not only that they support giving someone a break, but also that they'll try to step up to help out in that page/process/noticeboard for the length of a ban. It could be as little as checking in once a week or answering the easy questions. Who is willing to actually be supportive in practice? ] (]) 20:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::People will fill the space. WP:COIN managed before Axad12 showed up, and will manage if they stop editing there. Nobody is indispensible. ] (]) 20:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::It's only for two months, it's a good thing to get away and get a breath of fresh air, and yes, his response has been positive, but even he admits in the Breyer debacle, he was relying on other editor's opinions in evaluating the disputed content, so getting away from the COIN desk for a couple of months, and getting some experience in other areas of the encyclopedia will be beneficial, if and when, he returns to COIN.]] 22:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I don’t want to derail the voting process here, but a couple of points in relation to COIN… | |||
| *:::(Apologies for the length of this post but I feel the contents are relevant.) | |||
| *:::1) It has been observed elsewhere that “COIN has no teeth” (forgive me for the absence of a diff but I think it's a commonly acknowledged idea). I've discussed that issue at some length with ] and they've acknowledged that there is (in their opinion) insufficient admin oversight at COIN and that too many threads have historically gone unresolved without action being taken against promo-only accounts (etc). | |||
| *:::Star Mississippi has encouraged me to refer such cases to admins directly to ask them to intervene. I’ve been doing so over recent months and this has significantly improved positive resolutions on COIN threads. | |||
| *:::If I’m not active at COIN then that won’t be happening and very little action will be being taken against the promo only accounts reported there. Thus, while I acknowledge Whatamidoing’s earlier point about cross-training etc, and the points made by other users, there is an underlying unresolved issue re: admin oversight at COIN, which might also be resolved via some kind of rota or by a greater number of admins looking in from time to time. | |||
| *:::I’ve not consciously been clerking, and I certainly don’t aspire to be “the co-ordinator of COIN”, but there is something of a vacuum there. Consequently I’ve often posted along the lines of “Maybe refer this to RPPI?”, “Is there a notability issue here?”, etc. etc. in response to threads that have been opened. | |||
| *:::I absolutely accept 100% that, in terms of experience, I’m probably not the best person to be doing that – but I have the time to do it and I have the inclination, and in the absence of anybody else serving that role I’ve been happy to do it. But, as I say, really this is an underlying unresolved issue of others ''not'' having the time or inclination rather than an issue of me going out of my way to dominate. What I'd really like is if there were others sharing that task. | |||
| *:::2) Also I'm not really sure that the extent to which I perform that sort of role has any real link to me making assumptions about whether COI users have good or bad faith motivations. On the latter distinction I think it's fair to say that I'm usually (but admittedly not always) correct. There have also been occasions when others have been asking for action to be taken and I've been the voice who said "no, I think this is a good faith user who just needs some guidance on policy". I hope that I'm normally speaking fair in that regard. | |||
| *:::Most of the accounts who are taken to COIN are recent accounts who wrongly believe that Misplaced Pages is an extension of their social media. Most accounts who fall into that category are advised along those lines and they comply with policy or, sometimes, they just go away. Then there are the repeat customers who are often clearly operating in bad faith and where firmer action needs to be taken. I'm conscious of that distinction, which seems to me to be the single most important point when dealing with COIN cases. I've not been adopting some kind of hardline one-size-fits-all approach or characterising all COI activity as bad per se. However, more admin oversight at COIN would certainly be appreciated, if only so that there were a wider range of voices. | |||
| *:::Thus, in an ideal world I think I would continue to be allowed to operate at COIN, but as one of several regular contributors. | |||
| *:::Apologies for the length of this post but hopefully this is a useful and relevant contribution. Please feel free to hat this post if it is considered wildly off-topic. ] (]) 03:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::This comment just reinforces my support position that a two-month break is a good idea.]] 04:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::], all I can say is that if Misplaced Pages is looking for people with the time and motivation to dedicate to the project, and who are amenable to taking instruction, then here I am. | |||
| *:::::If I’ve been felt to be overly keen to contribute in a particular area then fair enough. I’m just not sure that a formal ban is the way to go about resolving that. ] (]) 05:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::Good grief, it's only two months, not a lifetime, I've taken breaks form the project longer than that, and guess what, the place didn't fall apart, and neither will COIN if you take a small break, formally or voluntarily. You claim - {{tq|If I’m not active at COIN then that won’t be happening and very little action will be being taken against the promo only accounts reported there.}} I just don't believe that to be true, because as Phil Bridger points out - ''WP:COIN managed before Axad12 showed up, and will manage if they stop editing there. Nobody is indispensable''.]] 06:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::I really don't wish to argue, you've expressed your view and that's fine. However, the point of my long post above wasn't that "I am critical to COIN". The post was simply intended to highlight the fact that there are very few regular contributors at COIN and to express a hope that a wider range of contributors might get involved (following on from earlier related comments by Whatamidoing). That would be healthy all round, regardless of my situation. | |||
| *:::::::Also, when I've seen similar situations arise in the past, good faith (but over-active) users seem to usually be given the opportunity to voluntarily take steps to allay any community concerns, rather than being handed a formal ban. I'd just be grateful for a similar opportunity. ] (]) 06:43, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::Apologies for the delay. I cannot provide a diff either as I can't recall where we had the conversation but acknowledging that what @] attributed to me is correct. There are simple blocks that are sometimes needed, but there aren't as many eyes on COIN to action them. I believe I've found merit to any Axad reported directly to me and if there were any I didn't take action, it was due to bandwidth as my on wiki time has been somewhat limited over the last six months. As for the merit of this report, I am not able to read through it to assess the issue so it would not be fair of me to weigh in on any element thereof. ] ] 14:48, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' I have read through this long, entire discussion. I'd just like to point out to Axad12 that, to me, it's kind of like you are saying what you think we want to hear so it's hard to know how reflective this incident has caused you to be. I think it would be a mistake for you to think you only made mistakes regarding this one article and instead reconsider your approach to the entire COI area. Sometimes "the consensus" is not correct and can violate higher principles like NPOV and V. | |||
| :I'll just mention that the COI area has caused us to lose some invaluable editors, just superb and masterful editors who were on their way to becoming administrators. They devoted incredible amounts of time to this project. But their interest in rooting out COI and pursuing UPE caused them to completely lose perspective and think that they were a one-man/woman army and they took irresponsible shortcuts that led them to either leave the project voluntarily or be indefinitely blocked. It's like they fell down a rabbit hole where they began to think that the rules didn't apply to them because they had a "higher calling" of getting rid of COI. This lack of perspective caused us to lose some amazing editors, unfortunately, but ultimately they were damaging the project. | |||
| :You seem like an enthusiastic editor and I'd rather not see the same thing happen to you so I recommend you cut back on your time "clerking" COIN and just make this task one of a variety of areas you edit in instead of your primary activity. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 08:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Liz, thank you for your comments. I welcome your perspective and I'm not unaware of the dangers that you highlight. | |||
| ::I think this is now day 5 of what has been a rather gruelling examination where I’ve co-operated to the very best of my ability. Most of the material under discussion has related to a series of regrettable misunderstandings where I’ve openly acknowledged my errors and would now like to move on. | |||
| ::Therefore I’d be grateful if, following a period of reflection, I be given the latitude to continue my activities as I think best, taking on board ''all'' the very helpful advice that I’ve received from multiple users. At this moment in time I'm not sure exactly what that will look like going forwards, but it will involve a very significant (perhaps complete) reduction in my concentration on COI issues and much more time spent on improving articles in non-COI areas where I've previously contributed productively (e.g. detailed articles on specific chess openings). | |||
| ::If I subsequently fall short of community expectations then by all means bring me back here with a view to imposing extreme sanctions. I do not think that that will end up being necessary. | |||
| ::I have only the best of intentions but I must admit that I'm finding this prolonged process psychologically wearing. I therefore wondered if we might bring matters to a swift conclusion. | |||
| ::I am genuinely very grateful for the thoughts of all who have contributed above. | |||
| ::Kind regards, ] (]) 08:27, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Hey, all: This thread's over 100 comments now. Can we please stop now? ] (]) 08:59, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Seconding. Axad seems to have agreed to step back from COI-related editing for a while, all discussions are trending strongly towards no formal sanctions - could this be closed? ] (]) 06:50, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Oppose'''. Sanctions are intended to be preventive, not punitive. At times Axad12 can get too aggressive, and removing the RfC template was one of that. Other issues were also raised but unless these issues continues, formal sanctions are unlikely necessary. ] (]) 17:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Oppose''' I haven't gone through the entire saga on the Breyers page, but for a while I was active in COI edit requests at the same time Axad12 was, and noticed their conistently very combatitive/aggressive approach towards any editor with a declared or suspected COI. I mentioned this to them and they said they had already stepped back from answering COI edit requests because of this, which I though at the time (and still do) showed a genuinely impressive amount of self-awareness. I rather burned out on the edit requests and came back a few months later to see the queue vastly decreased thanks in part ot Axad12's efforts, but also what seemed to me like very little improvement, if any, to the way they approach COI editors. I would regret to see Axad12 banned from this topic area, but I would like to see them approach it with somewhat more kindness. I would (regretfully) support sanctions if this kind of behaviour continued, but there's no need to jump to that now. ] (]) 03:33, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Just a note to acknowledge the essential truth of ]'s description above of my activities. There have, however, also been examples where I've shown considerable kindness and patience to COI editors and assisted them in re-formulating requests in a way that conforms with the relevant policies. | |||
| ::I've always seen activities at ] and activities dealing with COI edit requests as two rather different things (with the former involving primarily undeclared COI, and the latter involving declared COI). With the benefit of hindsight I accept that my exposure to the former probably coloured my approach to the latter in an unhelpful way and that being heavily active in both spheres simultaneously was not a good idea. | |||
| ::I would happily undertake never to deal with a COI edit request ever again and I have no particular desire to continue my activities at COIN either. The extent to which it was unhealthy to be operating in both areas is thus now effectively a moot point but I acknowledge that it was a factor in the matters under discussion here. ] (]) 05:54, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == MAB Teahouse talk == | |||
| People are allowed to hold strong opinions and still edit articles. But it doesn't exempt them from following rules. In this case we're dealing with a user who for a long time has replaced well sourced material with text and links to partisan sites, is edit warring when other editors objects and often resort to calling those who disagree with him vandals. | |||
| I didn't want to, but I one-hour protected the talk page of the Teahouse due to MAB going there. The Teahouse itself is already protected. Obviously they're going there precisely to make things as difficult on us as possible, but I don't know what else to do. ] (]) 09:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| This user has been subject to every attempt of dispute resolution except ArbCom, so it would be nice with some discussion on AN/I. I believe that this kind of behaviour is out of line and has been allowed to go on for too long. While I wouldn't call for a ban myself, I do think that the editor needs a break from editing Israel-Palestine related articles, at least for a month or more. -- ] 09:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Would it be possible to create a link (or button) that creates a new section on one's own talk page with {{tl|Help me}} preloaded? We could then add this to the page's editnotice. ] (]) 09:53, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Use ]. If you want to call for a lengthy block, then it should be clear from the discussion above that you won't get consensus for it. I understand that you find ''some'' edits by Amoruso objectionable, but overall, this is a productive editor with a history of positive contributions. ] ] 09:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I protected ] for an hour and found that there is a notice that pops up giving advice on how to get assistance on the user's talk page. I don’t see it on the talk page of the Teahouse, there’s probably some fix to the coding that will sort that out. — ] (]) 12:22, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Alternatively use an user conduct ]. {{User:Netscott/s1.js}} 09:55, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::OK, I've fixed that. — ] (]) 12:35, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::First of all, I would like the editor to ''move this back'' where it was, in its own section. This sections deals with a disputed 4RR and I have said what I have to say about that (and I'm not calling for a lengthy block). Second, I stated that every attempt of dispute resolution but Arbcom have been tried. This will go to Arbcom I presume, but I would like a discussion on ANI first. -- ] 10:19, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Looks like today they're hitting every help page they can find. ] (]) 09:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I moved this thread here as it is directly related to the above thread. It is generally poor form to have two discussions about a given user separately on ANI. Obviously no one owns ANI so if you feel that my moving the thread here was unjustified then feel free to move it back. I'm still reviewing this post myself. {{User:Netscott/s1.js}} 10:22, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::<small>In relation to "MAB" issues, is it just me, or is anyone else reminded of when the notoriously difficult Queen Mab speech was pretty much hit out of park in 1997's ]? ] (]) 🦘 12:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC)</small> | |||
| :::::No, I'm not reverting. But my post has nothing to do with the 4RR and should not have any bearings on that discussion (it is a separate case), and it was mostly written before the 4RR occurred. What I would like is a broader discussion on what kind of edit behaviour is actually acceptable. -- ] 10:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::<small>I think it's just you. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 06:21, 9 January 2025 (UTC)</small> | |||
| ::::::Steve Hart, I understand. Although it does happen occasionally, ANI isn't really meant for such discussions, it's generally for reporting nefarious editor behavior where timely admin intervention is likely to be necessary and also for review of admin actions. Again I'd suggest a user conduct ]. {{User:Netscott/s1.js}} 10:44, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::: Steve Hart: earlier you assumed bad faith, and now you are piggybacking on another case to besmirch your opponent who is temporarily unable to respond at ANI. Not a good place and not a good time, colleague. See ]. ←] <sup>]]</sup> 11:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::I'm not opposed to Amoruso editing at WP or for that matter an unblock per se. Nor do I care much for either side in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. What I am concerned about is allowing this kind of editing pattern to continue, a pattern which even according to some of those opposing the block is aggressive and revert warringish. -- ] 13:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::So why aren't you pursuing with equal vehemence editors on the other side of the Arab-Israel question who are equally if not more guilty of edit warring? I'm really uncomfortable with the way this is being handled.--] 15:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::I certainly will do. It's not like I'm immune from doing something when I see it . -- ] 16:47, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::Sorry, but listing an article for deletion is not on a par with pursuing a campaign against an editor. The list of so-called "offenses" above, such as your objecting to Sirhan being called a "murderer," indicate political bias here.--] 17:00, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::I'm not going to justify myself to you or give you "a list". If you disagree with my edits, drop me a note or file a report. As I have stated: I don't care much about the conflict at all. If you believe that editors should stand silent while properly cited material are removed and replaced with unverified statements from dubious partisan sources under the pretext ''all or nothing'' you're free to do so. I, however, disagree. -- ] 18:12, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::You just called for removing Amoroso from editing Arab-Israel subjects for a month or more. This is a harsh and in my view unjustified penalty, based on the flimsy "evidence of disruption" that you've accumulated here. Your citing his justifiable Sirhan page move is, I think, significant as that was a good move and a good edit.--] 19:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::Oh, I forgot, to your objection, you might wanna read up on ]. -- ] 18:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::<s>And in your view it is a "fact" that the convicted murderer of Robert F. Kennedy, who has spent the last forty-odd years in a California prison and was never a member of a millitant group -- that that convicted murderer is more accurately described as a "millitant" than as a "murderer." OK, you are entitled to your opinion, but it is anything but a mainstream one and speaks to what are clearly strongly held opinions on your part.</s> (see below) --] 19:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::Mantanmoreland, the ] is different from the assasin ]. {{User:Netscott/s1.js}} 19:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| (restoring margins) Thanks for clarifying, Netscott. Then Amoroso's edit seems even more justifiable. <i>That</i> Sirhan was a murderer of children! Good gawd. Just underlines my point that this was a good edit and that political motives are involved in this effort against Amoroso.--] 19:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Kosem Sultan - warring edit == | |||
| Amoruso has published a reply on his user page. I'm taking the liberty to post a copy. If I'm out of line, I'll remove it: -- ] 13:33, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Hello, I am terribly sorry if I write this in wrong place, but I really don't know what place would be best to report this. | |||
| :Steve, it appears to me that Amoruso's responses to your specific allegations are more than adequate, and that in general this has the feel of a personal issue, rather than an AN/I issue. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 21:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::So you feel it's ok to delete material which is relevant to an article and properly cited to reliable sources? Or to include material based on partisan sources, even over the objections of other editors? In that case we will never agree. Yes, this is personal issue, but in the sense that I'm tired of seeing propaganda in articles. This is either an encyclopedia or not an encyclopedia. Amoruso isn't the only one doing this, he's just the worst offender I have come across so far. -- ] 07:18, 13 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::This is a usual content dispute on which I have no opinion. Anyway, AN/I is not an appropriate place to resolve such issues. ] ] 08:38, 13 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I was editing page of ] and I noticed this user: 109.228.104.136 changed phrase in infobox "spouse: Ahmed I" into "consort of: Ahmed I", claiming 'they were never married'. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=K%C3%B6sem_Sultan&oldid=1263148667 | |||
| Steve Hart, I believe I completlely refuted your claims. Saying I deleted material which is relevant to an article is simply a false statement. Partisan sources is your POV in the matter, it's a regular content dispute - I and others believe it's a very valid source , and frankly if we take the Lebanon flag example your allegations seem to have been made in bad faith. You couldn't have missed the original user who explained that Lebanon wasn't a combatant and removed the flag before me, and you couldn't really have missed the user who added the flag who admitted his mistake and even apologised. One would think you chose that example to make a quick slur which people won't check, and it's disturbing. I want to assume ] here and I hope you won't resort to this again. I hope we can continue happilly as fellow wikipedians now. Cheers. ] 11:56, 13 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Because of this, I added information they were married and sourced this with book. However, this person keep revert to their preffered version of infobox. I asked them on Talk page about providing source. When I pointed that their source not disputes or even misinnterprets mine, they deleted my talk. They did this twice and even claimed I 'vandalized' Kosem's page. | |||
| ], you certainly have not addressed my issues (see above), ..I found it quite insulting (+totally wrong) the way you accused me of making lies; I think an apology is due. Regards, ] 19:40, 13 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| As inexperienced user I was few times into edit warring, as I did not know how exactly rules are there.I try to be careful now to not make disruptions and while there is instruction to undo undsourced informations, I am not sure if I am allowed to undo their - unsourced - edition, as I already did this few times. I would not label changing 'spouse' for 'consort of' as vandalism per say, but I want to protect my edition and I wish this person provided source so we could each consensus. You can see our - now deleted by them - discussion here: | |||
| :Huldra, I answered you on my talk page at the time. You were confused, misunderstanding - you talked about the previous 3RR while I talked about this ban. There was consensus here not there, I said "this time" and you thought I meant the other thing. You read that wrongly, so it's in fact you who needs to apologise ;) ] 17:43, 14 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:109.228.104.136&diff=prev&oldid=1267744138#Kosem_Sultan_was_wife_of_Ahmed_I. | |||
| 2) | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:109.228.104.136&diff=prev&oldid=1267749540#Kosem_was_wife_of_Ahmed | |||
| (I do not know if I linked this correctly, but both shound be find in history of talk page of user with today date) | |||
| I hope it can be seen I was willing to discuss things and I even proposed to merge ours versions, if only this person provide scholar source - which they didn't, as Tik Tok video they linked contardicts statement from my book (see details in discussions). | |||
| ===One by one respones to allegations of Steve Hart=== | |||
| I also want to add that blocked user called Cecac https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:K%C3%B6sem_Sultan#Marriage | |||
| I will reply one by one to the allegations made by ] . | |||
| used exactly the same argument, as historian in Tik Tok provided by 109.228.104.136. I do not know if 109.228.104.136 and Cecac are the same person, but I think it should be checked. | |||
| Finally, I do not know how much video made on Tik Tok should be considered as reliable source, so I am not sure how to act in this situation. | |||
| Again I apologize if I leave this message in wrong board - there were multiple issues so I decided to list them all. Please notify me if I am allowed edit Kosem's page and brought back informations, as I really want avoid going back-and-forth and do not want to be blocked myself. --] (]) 14:45, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *removing the flag of Lebanon from the article 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict | |||
| :I want to add that I informed user 109.228.104.136 about this reprt, however they delete this from their Talk page. ] (]) 23:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Too bad Steve Hart didn't (hmm.) go a bit further and saw that the user who placed the Lebanon flag admitted he was mistaken. Lebanon wasn't a combatant in the conflict and therefore the flag was out of place. The editor who placed the flag removed it himself. | |||
| ::I will point out that consort is generally considered synonymous with the word spouse. Elizabeth I's mother, for example was officially the "queen consort" of the united kingdom. ] (]) 19:32, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yes, indeed, but in this person's inention was to make Kosem be perceived as not wife, but concubine. While I do agree that all wife of monarch is also his consort, this person meant 'concubine' and I was afraid they gonna delete also other parts, when I was reffering to Kosem as sultan's wife, hence I inetrvened. English for some reason reffer to all sulatns partners as 'consorts' regardless if they are married or not, that's why it's important to highlight when consort was actually wife, like in Kosem's case. ] (]) 15:29, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Sockpuppetry in Philippine articles == | |||
| *page move, moving Sirhan Sirhan (militant) to Sirhan Sirhan (murderer) | |||
| {{atop|1=Page protected. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:15, 11 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| Request an immediate and extended range block for {{User|49.145.5.109}}, a certified sock of LTA ] from editing ] and other related pages pending a result of a protection request, the second to have been filed for that page after the first instance of sockpuppetry by the same account was deemed not serious enough. See also ]. ] (]) 07:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :It seems like this should be reported at ], not at ANI. That's where the checkusers are at although they are generally reluctant to connect an IP account with a blocked sockpuppet. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::This is already confirmed in the SPI. However, as it is an IP account that can't be indeffed, I'd had to check my calendar too often to see when their existing block expires. 15:48, 8 January 2025 (UTC) ] (]) 15:48, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Given that ] has been protected for the rest of the year, this probably isn't necessary. Also, worth noting that as p-blocks are limited to ten pages, we'd need to remove one from the block to add the 2025 page. ] (] | ]) 00:16, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == User:Wigglebuy579579 == | |||
| Yes, I did. Murder is NOT ] as far as I know concerning someone who murdered a whole family. Perhaps Steve Hart can explain us how is such a person a militant ? A militant could belong to an organization like HAMAS or Islamic Jihad MAYBE but this person was acting SOLO. So perhaps Steve Hart wants us to change the definitons of Criminal Law ? This page was not a page in contention and no edit war or reverts took place. | |||
| *{{Userlinks|Wigglebuy579579}} keeps engaging in disruptive editing behaviour: | |||
| # they created dozens of articles by copy-pasting AI-generated text; | |||
| # they ignored all warnings onto their talk{{nbs}}page; | |||
| # they duplicated draftified articles by simply recreating them. | |||
| {{U|Miminity}} and I have been cleaning the mess for hours, warned him several times, but he just ignores everything and starts again.<span id="Est._2021:1736271756958:WikipediaFTTCLNAdministrators'_noticeboard/Incidents" class="FTTCmt">{{snd}}] (] <b>·</b> ]) 17:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)</span> | |||
| : I would support indefinitely blocking this user. Their output is entirely low quality AI-generated slop, and they are contributing nothing of value to the encyclopedia while placing considerable burden on others. ] (]) 18:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :], can you provide some examples so we don't have to search through their contributions? Thank you. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 19:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :: Some pertinent examples ] (moved to mainspace by Wiggle and then back to draftspace) and ] (exactly the same scenario as previous). These are all obviously AI generated based on their formatting. ] (]) 19:09, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{re|Liz}} Examples include: | |||
| :::#], ] and ]; | |||
| :::#] and ]; | |||
| :::#] and ]; | |||
| :::#]; | |||
| :::among others. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 19:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{Ping|Liz}} This editor left a message on my talkpage and again it is clearly written by AI. ] '''''Warm Regards''''', ] (]) (]) 00:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Are any of the references in ] real or are they all hallucinations? I'm having trouble finding them on web searches. They're also suspiciously old even though there is more recent relevant literature. — ] ] 01:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::The ] essay recommends G3 for articles for which text-source integrity is completely lacking. — ] ] 01:22, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{ping|rsjaffe}} Using BookFinder.com, Citation #1, #3 (might be a dupref of 1) does exist but has different author, Citation #2 does exist and is correct. #4 is dupref of #2. A quoted google search and a google scholar search about #5, 8, 9, 11 (The journals does not seem to even exist) yields no result. No result for 6, 7, 9, 10 (Nagaland State Press does not seems to even exist) 12 '''''Warm Regards''''', ] (]) (]) 02:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I would like to hear from @], but, if the results of the reference searches on the other drafts are like this, then all those drafts should be deleted as unverifiable. LLM output can look very correct while hiding significant falsehoods, and it will be impossible to sort fact from fiction in those articles if they haven't been validated word-for-word with real sources. — ] ] 03:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Click all the link on the ], all of them are {{tl|failed verification}}. Either the page does not exist or the website itself does not exist. The JSTOR sources leads to a completely unrelated article. I think by the looks of it, this draft is safe to delete | |||
| ::::{{ping|Wigglebuy579579}} care to explain? '''''Warm Regards''''', ] (]) (]) 03:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{yo|rsjaffe}} more ref-checking at ]: as ] observes, ''The Angami Nagas: With Some Notes on Neighbouring Tribes'' exists (although with the BrE spelling of the title) and I accessed it at archive.org. It does not mention ''pfütsana'' anywhere in its 570 pages. The closest we get is ''pfuchatsuma'', which is a clan mentioned in a list of sub-clans of the Anagmi. The draft says {{tq|The term Pfütsana is derived from the Angami language, where "Pfü" translates to "life" or "spirit,"}} which is contrary to what ''The Angami Nagas'' says – ''pfü'' is a suffix functioning sort of similarly to a pronoun (and I think I know how the LLM hallucinated the meaning "spirit" but this is getting too long already). I looked at a couple of the sources for ] as well, and I haven't been able to find a single instance where the source verifies the claims in the draft. --'']'' <small>] ]</small> 16:48, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thanks for checking. Those are now deleted. — ] ] 16:52, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*] and ], thanks for supplying examples that can be reviewed. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*:I have deleted ] and ] as they have falsified references. Checking the others would be appreciated. Also, editor has been warned on their page about inserting unsubstantiated demographic data in articles. ]. I think we’re running out of ] here. — ] ] 16:19, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*::{{yo|rsjaffe}} ]: J.H. Hutton's ''The Angami Nagas'' (1921) doesn't mention any such festival, but talks about a ''sekrengi'' ritual which includes the "purification" elements described in the draft. But that's as close as it gets. The rest of the ritual described in the draft is '''very''' different from the festival described in the book (let's just say that it is not something that would attract tourists like the draft claims), and the etymology is sheer nonsense. So again I believe it is an LLM that, like the proverbial blind chicken, has found a seed and then, like the same chicken but without a head, is running in confused circles around it. | |||
| :*::It also amuses me a bit that a book from 1922 is used to support a statement about how the festival is a popular symbol of the culture today. (FTR, publications from the era of the British Raj should never be used to support claims about ethnic/tribal/caste related topics, though that is a bit tangential to the issue here.) --'']'' <small>] ]</small> 18:21, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :It's a pity that the editor has not engaged with this discussion. The areas they're editing in could use more work, and I get the impression that they are here to improve the encyclopedia. However, the ''way'' in which they're going about it needs reform, and if they don't explicitly commit to reform, I am inclined to block this editor for the overreliance on LLMs and the careless inclusion of incorrect and false references. What do others think? — ] ] 22:36, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I suggest a ] on creating article as the editor seems to have okay-ish mainspace edits. '''''Warm Regards''''', ] (]) (]) 01:26, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I came across their several days ago, when a link they provided (with an archive link) didn't exist, even when I substituted ".in" for the correct website domain of ".com", so I've got no idea where they got those links from in the first place? | |||
| ::They've responded to my talk page warning, but after going back to edit the exact same article they haven't fixed/reinstated the source so I'm now a little concerned that it came from AI & the user didn't find it themselves. They've done a ''lot'' of work on this article so I'm hoping it's just a one-off, but thought I'd best mention it. | |||
| ::Their had the summary "Fixed errors" and removed almost a dozen sources/links. ] (]) 02:16, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::That is very concerning. And the user is still editing and not responding to this discussion. Blocked from article space and draft space and reinvited to come here to discuss. — ] ] 05:06, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == User:BittersweetParadox - Overlinking == | |||
| *deleting material properly sourced to BBC: , ABC News: , PBS, others; blanking text in references: | |||
| {{atop|Not a problem; request rejected}} | |||
| Did I ? I would like to remind Steve Hart that Blanking = vandalism and that's harsh accusation ] and he should avoid that ASAP. This was according to policy, another banned user pushing this, not Timshifter apparently possibly (who got 3RR for this) but BlueDome (actually another sock-puppet of the banned user in question ) and policy explained here and here by many users. User was acting against consensus of atleast 4 users in good standing. | |||
| *{{userlinks|BittersweetParadox}} | |||
| *a tendency of being uncivil on talk pages, e.g. | |||
| none of the two example seem to be incivil. Actually, the Paranoia remark seems very light-hearted and a ] behaviour if anything, just jokingly. If someone got offended by it, I'd apologise of course. In fact, like Steve Hart said I (wrongly it seems) was particulary civil to him too even though he deleted material of mine. Seems strange allegation. | |||
| :::I'll just note that the "paranoia" comment was directed towards myself and in all honesty based upon what I was saying to ] at the time that was a pretty tame response. At this point the whole discussion that was occuring surrounding that comment is now a ]. {{User:Netscott/s1.js}} 15:58, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| This user is persistently ]ing throughout most of their edits that aren't dealing with categories or redirects, see for example: | |||
| *consistently removing warnings on own talk page, e.g: , including removing an olive branch response by one editor addressed not to him, but to a third editor. | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| * (unexplained citation removal as well) | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| I have also ] regarding this, but they have seemingly chosen to ignore that warning, as they are still continuing with the same behavior: | |||
| Ah, the ol' "don't remove from your page" think. Have you looked on other user talk pages at any chance ? Are you seriously pushing this allegation ? Note that the alleged olive branch response was made by ] a user now banned for 1 month for disruptive behavoiour on people's user pages. Seems Hart is missing a whole lot of information here. The timeshifter allegation was addressed already above - it was completely inappropriate and therefore removed. | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| This is also not the first time the issue has been brought up to the user, as they were previously warned in ], where even after claiming to understand the issue/say they won't do it again, . With their ignoring of warnings regarding overlinking, it unfortunately appears that an ANI discussion may be the only way to solve this ongoing issue, apart from a block. ] (]) 17:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *and finally, what I read, perhaps wrongfully... | |||
| :Overlinking still continuing on despite this ANI (), and even with an administrator , continues on with their edits/ignoring this ANI. The user is not appearing to want to ] whatsoever, and some of their communication over issues in the past does not bode well as well (). | |||
| Yes, you read that wrongfully. The topic on hand was how leads should be written for country articles. I suggested we try to reinstate some format into this in the name of ]. I feel it's my right to discuss such issues with my fellow wikipedians at the project page ? There was no malice or ill-intent there, just concern to make Israel on par with other country articles. | |||
| :They are adding many uses of , despite the usage instructions saying that the template should '''''not''''' be used in prose text. I really am not sure what more there is to do here, as any attempts at communicating with the user does virtually nothing. ] (]) 20:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *{{ping|BittersweetParadox}} It's rather insulting to state you'll comment here and then continue to overlink . Please stop editing like this until you can address the above concerns. Rgrds. --] (]) 07:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{ping|Liz}} Apologies for the ping, but could there please be some assistance here?... As BX stated above, despite their only communication thus far since this ANI (being a simple, "ok"), they have still continued overlinking- now overlinking '''''even more''''' since BX's comment above: . I'm really not sure what more there is that can be done here apart from a block, as it appears this is just going to continue on, no matter what anyone says here or on their talk page. ] (]) 16:55, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Several of the diffs you give are positive changes, and your inappropriate reverts have caused articles to be underlinked. Leave BittersweetParadox alone. If you insist that he be sanctioned for the negative edits, you'll get some as well. ] (]) 03:47, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Automatic editing, abusive behaviour, and disruptive(ish) wikihounding from ] == | |||
| Steve Hart notes that he was involved in a dispute with me back in August. That's true. In fact, this seems to be what it's all about. Steve Hart not just disputed but edit-warred over that page and reverted constantly and was also warned about it . He also wanted to ban me from the head-start which was almost a threat and perhaps a violation of ] - "''Frankly, I'm not sure you will be allowed to edit for much longer if you are to go on like this''" and didn't seem to be concerned of ] issues . He says he already mentioned something bad about me in August right when I was a newbie but forgot to say I refuted his claims. Finally, his repeated violations of ] saying that other users are biased towards me for political reasons even though this has just been contradicted by a good faith editor who disagrees with my political opinions completely and utterly. | |||
| {{atop|result={{nac}} While {{u|KMaster888}}'s editing history (the original discussion) wasn't inherently bad in itself, their conduct after being questioned about it was bad, violating ], ], ], and ] See , , , , , , , , , and their comments on this thread. Indeffed by {{u|Cullen328}}, and TPA revoked after , another personal attack. ]<sup>]</sup> 02:18, 9 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| Another proof of Steve Hart's agenda which revolved again over his war edit in August can be found again on this noticeboard. Steve Hart violated ] (I shall file him a complaint over that because it seems repetitve) by saying "Let me be perfectly clear: There's no reasoning with these guys. You will have better luck convincing a priest that God doesn't exist" | |||
| ] appears to be making lightning speed edits that are well beyond the capacity of any human to review, in addition to article content that's coming across potentially LLM-like in nature. Since December they've made over 11,000 edits, many across multiple articles within a sixty second window. | |||
| and making sure we all realise his crusade "One day someone's going to write him up and report him, and he'll be gone. Not even WP's forgiving policy enforcement is going to save him" (see same edit). | |||
| <sigh>. ] 11:13, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Amoruso, I knew I shouldn't have said anything on czr's talk page, because you would accuse me for having it out for you. As I said on his talk page, I happen to be on your side quite frequently. But, looking over your edit history, how can you tell me you're anything other than a single-purpose account to promote Israel? Your contributions speak for themselves. I might remind you that ] specfically says, "there is no need to assume good faith when there is evidence to the contrary". Otherwise, we'd never be able to address what we see as problem editing. -]<sup>]|]</sup> 14:16, 12 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I answered you in your talk page. Cheers, ] 11:49, 13 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I attempted to ask about the policies around this at ] and was met with a tirade of obscenities and abuse (which I want to give them a slight benefit of the doubt on, I'd be upset at being accused of being a bot if I wasn't): | |||
| ===A possible way forward=== | |||
| As explained ], Amoruso's block is not justified by the ] since he was reverting edits by a ]. Such reversions are specifically exempted from the ], and, to my knowledge, are not otherwise considered to be "edit warring". With regard to allegations of edit warring and ] violations by ] generally, it would be a mistake to block only this one user, but to refrain from blocking other users who have been engaging in at least equally severe policy violations through pro-Israel and anti-Israel revert warring on a large number articles related to the middle east. As just a small example of this phenomenon, some users have repeatedly entirely unreferenced anti-Israel material to ]. Blocking a single user is not going to stop pro-Israel and anti-Israel editors from carrying on the Middle East conflict in the form of edit warring on Misplaced Pages articles. Rather, it might be advisable to identify the articles suffering from the worst pro-Israel/anti-Israel revert warring, and instead of fully protecting them, community banning the editors most involved in the revert warring from editing those specific articles for a period of several months. Unlike outright blocking, temporarily banning the editors responsible for the revert warring on a per-page basis would allow such editors to continue to contribute to any other articles that they could edit in a constructive manner. ] 01:52, 13 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| * I think this is a great suggestion. I would also like to see a zero-tolerance policy against adding unverified statements, claims of facts, and so forth, which we see from both sides. Dubious or contested material should ''always'' be moved to talk until it's either verified or consensus is reached. -- ] 06:59, 13 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I agree that one should always add referencedd statements which are true, and this is something I've always adhered too. We should be careful not to exploit this doctrine in order to enforce one POV over another. ] 11:50, 13 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Just to throw something else into the mix here that may be relevant...I've seen calls before in other discussions, incuding Jimbo's talk page, for a ] to be done on ] and ]. Has one been done, and if so, what were the results? ] 00:27, 14 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::(sound of applause) Hear hear! I knew that this thread would attract a troll pushing the ] line of swill, and ] has filled that role handsomely, as he has in the past and I am sure will in the future. Meanwhile, I think he should get a block to remind him that being a meatpuppet of a banned user is not the way to go.--] 03:09, 14 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::I just noticed that Cla68 engaged in the above trolling in not one but <i>two</i> AN/I threads!. Bless my soul he is a dedicated troll.--] 03:34, 14 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I checked the reference again () and it's a message from ] accusing ] and ] of being the same, not ]. I apologize to Amoruso for casting aspersions on his/her account. ] 03:41, 14 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::The ] appears to apply to many of the users whose actions are discussed on this page. It seems that the same names are always being discussed for corrective action such, as in this case, disruptive editing. Would the administrators agree that 80% of the disruptive editing problems caused on Misplaced Pages that demand their attention come from the same 20% of Misplaced Pages's editor population (besides anonymous IP editors)? ] 04:13, 14 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Actually, I believe less than 20% of editor's cause repeated problems. I would guess 10%. ] 04:14, 14 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Why would you apologize to Amoruso and not to Mantanmoreland, as a matter of interest? ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 06:08, 14 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I'm going by what Fred Bauder reported in the diff that I posted above because I understand that Fred has a lot of credibility on Misplaced Pages. If he's wrong on what he reported, then of course I retract and apologize to Mantamoreland for presenting false evidence that he used sock puppets in the past. Let me make it clear, that even though Fred presents evidence that Mantanmoreland was using sock-puppetry in the past, I'm not accusing Mantanmoreland and Amoruso of being the same person right now. I realize I need to apologize to Mantanmoreland also for implying that. I'll expressly state it: I apologize to Mantanmoreland for implying that he and Amoruso are sock puppets of the same person. ] 06:18, 14 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Thanks, Cla. Whatever Fred was referring to was back in March and has been dealt with, so it's best not to keep on raising it. It's pretty clear that Amoruso isn't a sockpuppet. Thanks again for the apology. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 06:23, 14 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Cla, what is your explanation for your making the same allegation in this other AN/I? If you have an explanation, that is.--] 15:27, 14 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::SlimVirgin states that no sockpuppetry is going on here. I trust what she says and thus, as far as I'm concerned, the matter is closed. ] 02:40, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::It certainly is, but I'd appreciate it if you could address my question. Thanks.--] 15:36, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ===Cla68's cyberstalking and trolling=== | |||
| His last comment and "apology" to Amoroso -- conspicuously not to me -- was a repetition of the same old ] cyberstalking and harassment directed at me. Cla68 engaged in more than just trolling and disruption in two unrelated AN/I threads. He acted as a sock/meatpuppet of a banned user, as he has in the past, for which he was warned to desist. I reiterate my request for an appropriate block. --] 03:51, 14 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Cla68 is a respected and dedicated editor, the author of many superb articles. Please do not waste people's time with absurd claims that he is a "sock/meatpuppet" or a "dedicated troll". It will achieve nothing, and reflects very poorly on you. --]<sup>]</sup> 06:26, 14 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::In fairness, Rob, Mantan was responding to Cla's allegations. The best thing is for these claims not to be recycled, then no one will feel they have to defend themselves. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 06:35, 14 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Rob, Cla68 has a history has pushing the agenda of banned ] , and of making false sockpuppet allegations against me. In this AN/I he made scurillous sockpuppet allegations -- in two AN/Is, one having nothing to do with Amoroso -- against Amoroso and myself. When called on it, he offers up a lame excuse and apologized to one of us. This is nothing less than Wikistalking, and I think appropriate sanctions are warranted.--] 15:18, 14 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::It's true, Cla68 has made such malicious allegations before - it seems very strange this behaviour and I don't know what he was looking for in this discussion. ] 13:59, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::To repeat what I said above...SlimVirgin states that no sockpuppetry is going on here. I trust what she says and thus, as far as I'm concerned, the matter is closed. ] 02:38, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::But the issue is not sockpuppetry, it's your conduct. You made identical sockpuppetry accusations a few weeks ago and were told to stop by the same administrator. You were told: "please don't imply sockpuppetry of regular editors without strong evidence." You were told to stop repeating what you pick up on attack websites. Also I'm still curious to know why you made your "sockpuppetry" comments in an AN/I concerning ] that was unrelated to either Amoroso or myself.--] 15:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| As far as I can tell this peaked with a total of 89 edits in a four minute window between 08:27 to 08:31 on December 28, 2024. Most are innocuous, but there are content edits thrown in the mix and recent articles were written in a way that indicates it may be an LLM ( not definitive, though if you are familiar with LLM output this may ring some alarm bells, but false alarms abound). | |||
| ==] edit warring and ]== | |||
| Following the quite hot thread at ]'s page, it's quite clear that whoever is operating that bot threw my entire edit history into the mix, because the bot systematically edited ''every single article'' that I had edited, ''in reverse order'' (over 100 so far since this came up about an couple of hours ago), going back a reasonable amount of time. | |||
| The ] article is in a sorry state of rampant edit warring which lead to the semiprotection of it '''and its talk page''' too. | |||
| The problem is that it's clear that a bot was instructed to just make an edit, without concern for what those edits are, so you end up with , , or at a rate far faster than any editor could address. | |||
| ] (] • ]) has been pushing to have two cited incidents from reliable sources, namely the notable incident involving the alleged assault by Derek Smart of a coke machine, and a cite from ben kuchera of ]. ] has claimed a consensus for deletion of the cited information based on a discussion in the talk page that has lasted only a few hours, and with only three contributors out of many, which is not acceptable. He has warnings for civilty on his talk page. He can be possible SPA by his contributions ]. | |||
| This one is easily one of the strangest situations I've ever encountered on Misplaced Pages. ] 20:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I kindly request the admins to mediate and offer a acceptable solution to this long running (>13 months) edit war. I would also request for a checkuser to be performed on ] and ] and ] to see if there is any violation of the blocks placed under WarhawkSP and SC.] 01:52, 13 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I'm flattered that you've looked into my activity on Misplaced Pages so closely. But if you'd be arsed, you'd understand that it is very simple to do an insource search using a regular expression to find a lot of stylistic errors, like no space after a sentence. If you love being on my back so much, good on you, but I'd wish if you got off. ] (]) 20:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I mirror Kerr avon's stated concerns. Except the check user is much more complicated. Besides the 3 usernames, there are also anonymous IP addresses that have recently appeared editing the Derek Smart article and it's talk page. They all purport the same viewpoint, share writing styles (mostly) showing uncanny similarities to recently blocked WarhawkSP and Supreme_Cmdr, and always agree with each other. The IP addresses are 63.28.69.164 and 63.44.66.100, which are both Fort Lauderdale IP Addresses, where Smart lives and runs his business. Also, it should be noted that these violations may fall under ] policy because it is likely the person is Derek Smart himself. --] 02:19, 13 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::1) That doesn't explain how consistently abusive you have been | |||
| ::2) While I'm aware that an overwhelming percentage of the errors you're editing out are ones that can simply be addressed by regex, I'm very clearly raising the content edits as opposed to formatting ones. ] 20:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :How about we take this off of ANI, of all places? ] (]) 21:00, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::No, this feels quite appropriate considering your abusiveness and that your retaliation involved damaging some articles. I said there I was asking a policy question and was happy to let it go, you've edited over 100 articles from my edit history in direct sequence in response to that question, which is just strange behaviour for an editor. ] 21:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Obviously, if there's someone who's making bad decisions on Misplaced Pages (You), I want to check if he has messed up articles. Please tell me what articles you think I have damaged. ] (]) 21:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Also, I'd appreciate if you would stop casting aspersions about me being an LLM. ] (]) 21:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::As I said then, and as I'll say again: If there's not an LLM involved in this situation, then I'm sincerely sorry. It was a combination of clearly assisted editing and the verbiage used that looked concerning. ] 21:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::There was no assisted editing. Stop spreading that blatant falsehood. This is why I say to take this off of ANI. It is stuff that is made up in your head that has no basis in reality. ] (]) 21:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::<s>Unless you're doing regex with your eyes, clearly you're using assistance. And the fact you're (still!) doing something that fixes the same type of typo almost as fast as I can click "Random Article" indicates you're doing more than just regex. You're finding these articles somehow.</s> <span style="font-family:monospace">]]</span> 22:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I am doing an "insource" search using regex. ] (]) 22:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::I learned about insource searches recently and was able to find spam by the boatload immediately. It is a great tool. ] (]) 22:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Ah . I wasn't aware one could do that. I retract. <span style="font-family:monospace">]]</span> 22:36, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::And, I would appreciate if you would stop calling my edits strange and odd. ] (]) 21:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::You had over 100 edits in a row directily in chronological sequence, from newest to oldest, of my exact edit history excluding wikiprojects and talk pages. I'm allowed to find that a little strange. ] 21:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Why shouldn't someone call strange and odd edits strange and odd? ] (]) 21:32, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :@] I suggest you stop with the personal attacks before you get blocked. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 21:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Maybe I'm a little less forgiving than Tarlby, so I would suggest that {{u|KMaster888}} should be blocked/banned already. Knowing how to write regular expressions doesn't give anyone the right to ignore policy about such issues as civility and hounding. ] (]) 21:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I have not ignored policy on either civility or hounding. The fact is, there are no automation tools that I have used, and this has been constructed as a theory entirely as a falsehood. It is annoying that one Misplaced Pages user constantly spouts falsehoods about me. ] (]) 21:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'll just ask you straight up.{{pb}}Do you feel any remorse for this statement? {{tq|remove asshole}} {{pb}}Could you explain why you felt it was best to choose those two words when blanking your talk page? ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 21:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::And again: {{tq|@The Corvette ZR1 @Tarlby stop clogging up ANI with your comments.}} ]<sup>]</sup> 22:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::, , , , , ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 21:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::And this: and this: ] (]) 21:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::That was because Misplaced Pages's servers literally went down, which didn't allow the PHP form to be processed correctly. I would say the same to you as I said to the other editor: get off my back. ] (]) 21:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::You have to abide by the rules like the rest of us. And cool it with the hostile edit summaries. ]] 21:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::]. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 21:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::You are clearly ]. Attacking other editors instead of backing off, inappropriate edit summaries, what next? ]<sup>]</sup> 21:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::There ought to be a gossip noticeboard that doesn't clog up ANI. ] (]) 21:45, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I will dispute what you said. I AM HERE to build an encyclopedia. Why do you think I would have given 10,000 edits worth of my time if I didn't care? ] (]) 21:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I would say that you are here to build an encyclopedia. Unfortunately, ] and ] tell me the contrary. ]<sup>]</sup> 21:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Regardless of their editing or otherwise, KMaster888's comments in edit summaries ''and here'' indicate they're ] in a way that indicates an inability to participate in a collaborative encyclopedia. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:07, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::The product of Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, which is a body of written and visual work. It is first and foremost about the product, not the community. In this sense, it is indeed a collaborative encyclopedia, but it should not be considered an encyclopedic collaboation. ] (]) 23:13, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::: ] over what "collaboration" is doesn't help when you're in blatant violation of ] of the ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::I'm not Wikilawyering. I would also encourage you to come to a discussion on my talk page over small potatoes instead of at ANI. ] (]) 23:19, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::: is wikilawyering. And this is at ANI, so the discussion is taking place at ANI. Answering the concerns about your conduct that were raised here on here is how you resolve the issue, not "don't talk about it on ANI", as the latter gives the impression of trying to sweep them under the rug - especially since your edit summaries MrOllie linked above make it clear this is very much not "small potatoes". - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Here's some more diffs of KMaster888 being uncivil. From my user talk page. . I think these are forgivable if in isolation since KMaster888 may be frustrated by false accusations of being a bot, but if it's a pattern, it may need addressing. | |||
| :The ] and ] of my user talk page and of this ANI is also a behavioral problem that, if a pattern, may also need addressing. It is disrespectful to interlocutor's time and brainpower to dominate discussions by replying to everything. –] <small>(])</small> 23:36, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Unless there are specific discussion rules, I should not be penalized for responding to comments that involve me. ] (]) 23:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::The problem isn't you responding to those comments. It's about HOW you responded to those comments. ]<sup>]</sup> 23:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::There are, in fact, {{tqq|specific discussion rules}} - ] and ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 06:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Propose indefinite block=== | |||
| :*Addendum: I don't believe Mael-Num is a sockpuppet. Supreme_Cmdr/WarHawkSP and the IP Addresses are. Mael-num has a distinct writing style, but there are still issues that need some oversight over at the derek smart article.--] 04:20, 13 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=Blocked and TPA revoked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 06:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| *{{userlinks|KMaster888}} | |||
| They demonstrate a severe inability to interact in the collegiate manner this project requires. The edit summaries are not merely uncivil, but dismissive: ignoring colleagues is worse than just being rude to them. Their behaviour on Novem Linguae's talk pretty much sums it up.{{pb}}Whether they are actually a bot or running a scruipt doesn't really matter: WP:BOTLIKE is pretty cl;ear trhat "it is irrelevant whether high-speed or large-scale edits that a) are contrary to consensus or b) cause errors an attentive human would not make are actually being performed by a bot, by a human assisted by a script, or even by a human without any programmatic assistance". So 10,000 edits or not, the edits smack of being bot/script-generated, and may also be WP:STALKING.{{PB}}I also don't set any store by the excuse for "wiping ass with comments", "improve asinine comment" and "remove asshole" being that {{blue|Misplaced Pages's servers literally went down, which didn't allow the PHP form to be processed correctly.}} WMF servers going down (or not) do not cause aggressive edit summaries, and we are not fools. The fact that the same attitude pervades through this discussion—"everyone, get off my back"—suggests that this is default behaviour rather than a one off. ]'']''] 23:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :You're saying "they" like it's more than one person. I am one editor. ] (]) 23:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Not in that sense. We use they/them pronouns as to not assume an editor's gender. ]<sup>]</sup> 23:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per above reasoning. ]] 23:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:Looks like {{noping|Cullen328}} beat us to that indef. ]] 23:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per ] behavior. Their blank talkpage, on which they encourage discussion, has a nonexistent archive. ]] 23:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:That is not true. The archive page is at the subpage of the talk page, /archive. ] (]) 23:45, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Support -''' While I wouldn’t have had the same suspicions about their editing as Warren, their extremely uncivil reactions to it and further questions here, along with the further attention they’ve drawn on to prior recent behaviour has effectively demonstrated an unwillingness to engage in meaningful interaction with any other editor who disagrees with them. ] (]) 23:52, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I'm concerned as well. I'm concerned that there is organized off-wiki attempt to push a POV on this article that removes cited sources. As mentioned above on this page, WarHawkSP and Supreme Cmdr have been single purpose accounts blocked from editing due to this. There have been numerous more single purpose accounts and now a rash of anon edits. Checkuser is inconclusive, but did not rule out the possibility that these are socks. I mentioned above, this edit war does not appear to show signs of slowing down soon, and I believe it will likely continue until everyone is 3RR blocked, or it goes to ArbCom. We absolutely need some administrator intervention. Users are misquoting policy, especially BLP to remove cited, reliable material. This is a major problem. ] ] ] 03:04, 13 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Maybe revoke TPA too? This is beyond the pale. <span style="font-family:monospace">]]</span> 23:57, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Wow… ] ] 00:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{od}}I have indefinitely blocked KMaster888 for personal attacks and harassment, and disruptive behavior. ] (]) 23:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :After their latest personal attack, I have revoked their talk page access. ] (]) 23:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. is beyond the pale. This is clearly a person that lets rage get the best of them, and is not responsive to feedback. Not sure if we should close this, or let it play out and turn into a CBAN. –] <small>(])</small> 00:17, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Good block''' and I'd have done same if you hadn't been here first. Regardless of whether the edits were improvements, no one has the right to treat other editors as KM888 did. ] ] 01:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Good block''' It'd take a hand-written miracle from God for them to change their ways anytime soon. | |||
| :This is beyond tiresome. I believe this page needs full protection until all parties can form some sort of agreements. --] 05:27, 13 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 03:01, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| ===Investigating the hounding claim=== | |||
| '''Note''': I'm working with Mael-Num to try to keep him civil and try to find a reasonable solution to this. I guess you could call it informal mediation. However, I do think this case would be good for a formal mediation attempt, which I have neither the time nor the interest for conducting myself (not to mention I'm not AMA). I agree with InShaneee. This page needs to be full protected, a mediation needs to be conducted, administrator oversight towards those who continue to be uncivil needs to be enforced with short blocks, and hopefully this can be fixed without the time and frustration of an ArbCom case. Unfortunately, I think that it will end up coming to that otherwise. For further reference, see the cross conversation on my ] and ]'s talk. ] ] ] 05:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Above, there is a claim that KMaster888 is ] Warrenmck by editing 100 pages that Warrenmck has edited. The suggests that there's only an overlap of 45 pages (42 if you subtract out my user talk, KMaster888's user talk, and ANI). {{u|Warrenmck}}, can you please be very specific about exactly which pages overlap? Maybe give a link to KMaster888's contribs and timestamps of where this range of hounding edits begins and ends? This is a serious claim and probably actionable if enough evidence is provided. –] <small>(])</small> 23:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::* Screw it, I'll go ahead and do a full mediation on this. I posted on the talk page. Got nothing else going on anyway. Hopefully this will at the very least determine who is willing to help advance the article, and who is not. ] ] ] 05:43, 13 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I've fully protected. It's getting hard to keep track of all the ]s on that article. -- ] 12:48, 13 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Note that there are >100 ''edits'' across the pages, since they tended to edit in a spree. The number of pages you found seems accurate, even accounting for the possibility of a few outside of this exchange. I’m not sure what exactly I can do to show the relationship to my edit history beyond I guess go pull said histories and compare them? But I wouldn’t be surprised if the vast majority of the interactions you see were from that narrow window after your talk page. | |||
| I'm requesting a moderate length block on WarHawkSP: after agreeing to mediation, and after the article was protected, WarHawkSP is now deleting comments off the user talk that disagree with his position. He cites WP:BLP as his validation, and calls it vandalism, but the comments he deleted were a) opinion and not subject to libel, b) nothing that would even be considered a personal attack if you were to subsitute a wikipedia editors name in, and c) directly related to the validity of inclusion of a link in the article, which is why the page is protected in the first place. | |||
| :Sorry for the drama, by the way. ] 01:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| WarHawk is a single purpose account, that has been blocked for 3RR on this account. It's inconclusive as to whether he is a sockpuppet or not. I'm requesting a block length of 48 hours so that further talk page discussion can go on undisrupted by him. ] ] ] 01:54, 15 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Ah that makes sense. I didn't think of the multiple edits to a page thing. No worries about the drama. –] <small>(])</small> 02:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Please don't apologise for this. Nobody should have to put up with such behaviour. ] (]) 09:47, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == User:Bgsu98 mass-nominating articles for deletion and violating ] == | |||
| Anything? Hello? ] ] ] 06:08, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *{{userlinks|Bgsu98}} | |||
| Hello! Sorry if this isn't the right place to post this.<br /> | |||
| :Hi Swatjester, looking at the talk page there appears to be a reasonable enough discussion about ], specifically concerning the removal of poorly sourced material from talk pages per ]. To be honest, I don't see anything to support a block... ] 22:08, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I noticed an editor named {{u|Bgsu98}} who had been mass-nominating figure skater articles for deletion. It is too obvious to me that he doesn't do even a minimum search required by ] before nominating. (I must note that most of the skaters he nominates for AfD aren't English, so a foreign language search is required. Sometimes you need to search on a foreign search engine. For example, Google seems to ignore many Russian websites recently.)<br />I have counted 45 articles nominated by him at ]. And it is worrying that people seem to rely on the nominator's competence and vote "delete" without much thought. | |||
| I should note that {{u|Bgsu98}} doesn't seem to stop even when an article he nominated has been kept. He nominated ] (a national medalist) two times with the same rationale (]). One can really wonder why he does this. | |||
| ::As far as I know, reverting someone's opinion on a talk page is considered bad taste, and to do so while WP:BITING them by declaring them to be vandals, and this is a continuation of his prior behavior on the page which is full of personal attacks and incivility (not that there hasn't been that on all sides). It's one thing to be incivil, it's another to be incivil, remove someone's valid talk point opinions, and then call them vandals over it. ] ] ] 09:54, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| P.S. More information is here: ]. What happened is that the notability guidelines for some sportspeople were changed a few years ago. And a large chunk of figure skater articles (most of them, honestly) are now outside of ]. It seems that no one acted on this change until {{u|Bgsu98}} came. | |||
| A Request for Arbitration has been filed on this topic. ] ] ] 03:58, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| P.P.S. As I stated on the WikiProject Figure Skating talk page I linked above, I think it was very unfair to change the rules. Especially since web sources tend to die out after some time. | |||
| == ] - this section moved here from ] == | |||
| P.P.P.S. I would also like to note that I am polite, while {{u|Bgsu98}} has already accused me of "bad-faith accusations and outright lies" (). --] (]) 01:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{vandal|Andries}}: Andries is a self-professed critic of Sathya Sai Baba and said he will continue to revert the ] article despite specifically being warned by Admin to stop . Since the time of Admin's warning, he included the link in defiance of Admin and the ] 4 times, 3 times today so far. See: . I have placed 4 warnings on his talk page. ] <sup>]-]</sup> 17:56, 13 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I am relisting this incident because no one responded to it. This has been a persisting problem and I fail to see how it is going to be resolved if Admin does not step in to resolve it. ] <sup>]-]</sup> 17:56, 13 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :as the closer of several skating AfDs, I have no issue with a DRV if @] or any other editor believes I closed it in error. However MC, you seem to acknowledge these skaters don't meet the rules and have an issue with the rules. That isn't grounds for a DRV nor a report against @] who is nominating based on community consensus. ] ] 02:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Please take it to ]. ]|] 22:11, 13 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I agree with Star Mississippi. But just to give some scope, this cleaning house, mostly of ice skating junior champions, is not recent, it's been going on for at least 6-9 months now, it was originally done through the use of PROD'd articles. But while there have been some objections raised over the past year, Bgsu98's efforts have mostly received support from editors who believe Misplaced Pages is bloated with biographies of marginally notable athletes. Over the past two weeks, through the use of AFD, we have seen dozens and dozens (hundreds?) of annual national skating championship articles either deleted or redirected. But I just want to note that these AFDs wouldn't have closed as "Delete all" or "Redirect all" without the support of other AFD participants. Very few editors are arguing to Keep them all. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Zoe, he reverted the article 3 times but no more. So it does not violate 3RR. Originally reported it as ], and the Admin there moved it here. Who else is going to deal with this issue if not the Admin here? ] <sup>]-]</sup> 16:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::"''However MC, you seem to acknowledge these skaters don't meet the rules and have an issue with the rules.''"<br />— They don't meet ], but most (if not all) are famous people and should meet ]. Therefore, caution should be exercised when deleting. I don't think a national silver medalist can be unknown, it is just that reliable sources are hard or even impossible to find now. It appears that some years ago the rules didn't require ], so skater articles were created with simply "He advanced to the free skate at the 2010 World Championships" or "He is a national senior silver medalist", which was enough for an article to not be "picked at". The editors who created skater articles back then probably didn't want to do more than a bare minimum and didn't care to add reliable sources beyond the ISU website profile. One who decides to delete a skater article must keep in mind that reliable sources probably existed at the time the article was created. Cause, as I've said, these skaters arn't unknown. They represented their countries at the highest possible level of competition.<br />(I've recently noticed that Google News don't go as far back as before. Some web sites deleted their older content. Some have even completely disappeared. Like, I mostly edit music articles, and I've noticed that if didn't create some articles 10 years ago, I wouldn't be able to create them now.) --] (]) 17:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Even if being a junior national medallist was enough in and of itself, ] has always been a thing. You can't just state some fact that would meet a specific notability guideline like ] without providing verification of the claim without the possibility that the article will be nominated at AFD or redirected. '']''<sup>]</sup> 02:35, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{re|Star Mississippi|Liz}} A ], a deletion review? Is it maybe possible to undelete "]" (])? Cause I was searching for sources for ] and found something like a short biography of hers, two paragraphs long.<br />Here: .<br />And again, it was {{u|Bgsu98}} who nominated the article back in May. And he was told, I'm quoting ]: "''There are a whole bunch of similarly deficient nominations. Really, such blanket nominations without evidence of WP:BEFORE and consideration of WP:ATD should be all procedurally kept as WP:SKCRIT#3 given lack of a valid deletion rationale''." --] (]) 23:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::After looking at ], I think no one will say that I was incorrect about how people vote at AfD. There's even a comment like this: "WP:NSKATE lists some very clear criteria for inclusion, which this article does not meet." And then a more experienced user noted that you should actually search for coverage that may satisfy WP:GNG, but no one actually searched and the article was deleted. --] (]) 00:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :: I have also found an interview with ]: . Yes, it is an interview, but there an editorial paragraph about her (an introductiion). There also a short paragraph here → . Not much, but considering she competed almost 20 years ago... --] (]) 00:34, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yes @] you're welcome to file a deletion review or request that @] provide you the draft to improve with the sourcing you identified. Neither of us can unilaterally overturn the community discussion. ] ] 14:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yes @] you're welcome to file a deletion review or request that @] provide you the draft to improve with the sourcing you identified. Neither of us can unilaterally overturn the community discussion. ] ] 14:36, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Okay. --] (]) 17:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : This is a content dispute and not an ANI-worthy issue. ] ] 03:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :: I don't think this is a content dispute. I think the user violates ], otherwise it would be impossible to create tons of nominations. And please look at the AfD page, all his nominations simply say: "Non-notable figure skater", "Non-notable figure skater, PROD removed", "Non-notable figure skater; no senior-level medal placements" or "Non-notable figure skater; highest medal placement was silver at the German nationals". It is obvious that there's no ] research and as little consideration as "humanly possible".<br />Okay, since Bgsu98 pinged someone in his support, I'll ping {{u|BeanieFan11}} and {{u|Doczilla}}. (Sorry for disturbing you, BeanieFan11 and Doczilla.) --] (]) 15:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::When closing one AfD, I made some observations about that day's many AfDs and noted in that one close regarding Bgsu98: "The nominator's burst of dozens of nominations within half an hour failed to stimulate any discussion about many of them." In my meager opinion, the massive number of rapid deletion nominations rather strongly might suggest, at the very least, a lack of due diligence regarding each and a likely violation of WP:BEFORE. ] <sub>]</sub> 07:02, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :] claims to be polite, yet wrote : ''"random people at AfD don't care about actually checking the notability and just vote "delete per nom"''. Pinging ] who also found that comment objectionable. I have made an effort to thank editors who have participated in my AFD's, regardless of whether they have always agreed with my findings, because AFD's that end in "no consensus" do nothing but waste everyone's time. | |||
| :He has been adversarial and confrontational in every communication to me. From ]: ''"By the way, I don't understand your agenda here on AfD... Like, you nomitated ] 2 (two) times with exactly the same rationale... Are you planning to nominate it 100 times?"'' | |||
| :I always appreciate constructive feedback when it's delivered in a courteous and professional manner. ] seems incapable of courtesy or professionalism. ] ] 04:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*C'mon, ], civility goes both ways. We can discuss the value of these articles and the AFD process without attacking each other. Flinging mud doesn't give anyone the moral high ground. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*:I apologize, ]; I am just at my wit's end with this editor. ] ] 04:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*Here's my take, ]. You have been taking extremely BOLD actions now for most of 2024, proposing the removal of certain articles that are now being judged to be of non-notable article subjects. I think we have even had other discussions about these mass deletions on ANI before when they were still being done in the PROD world. When you take on a project like cleaning house of hundreds of articles that other editors spent time creating and improving, you can expect pushback even if you have policy on your side. Any action that seems "mass" can cause alarm in regular editors who don't believe sufficient care is being taken before tagging these articles for deletion. While I might agree with the overall goal of your project, I think it's important to have empathy for editors who have contributed to these articles over the years that are now being regularly deleted. Most of my work involves the deletion of pages and I still feel some pangs of guilt over removing articles that editors have poured hours into, even if i know they don't meet Misplaced Pages's current standards. It's a job that must be done but I know that it's disappointing to many of our content creators. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*:As I have been pinged on this discussion I thought I would 1 confirm I did find @] to be somewhat rude and condescending in their repeated assertions that those who vote on these skating AFDs do not do any research and are basically sheep just voting delete and 2 most of these nominated bios are a few sentences or just a table of stats copy and pasted so @] I doubt anyone spent hours putting them together. Finally I feel @] is now looking to use any procedure they can to try and besmirch @] and derail their valid efforts to remove some of the seemingly thousands of sports bios that do not meet current Misplaced Pages guidelines and are of interest to few, if any, general reader. If anyone is in need of reprimand or sanction over this matter (which has been blown out of all proportion), it is @] ] (]) 09:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*::Why should I be "reprimanded"? My comments about "people at AfD' were non-specific, while {{u|Bgsu98}} directly accused me of lying. (In the Russian Misplaced Pages, he would be blocked for this "automatically".)<br />Also, a note to admins: Can it be that {{u|Bgsu98}} finds fun in annoying other editors? I can't really explain the content of his user page differently. Yes, surely, different people can have different motivation for editing Misplaced Pages, but I don't think it is a "normal situation" when you look at someone's user page and see how the person likes to be "evil".<br />And, btw, please note that Bgsu98 summoned Shrug02 here for the purpose of supporting him. I haven't summoned anybody. (Maybe some people would notice, but Bgsu98 deleted my ANI notice from his talk page immediately.) --] (]) 15:35, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*:::@] I am going to be generous and presume English is not your first language so your choice of wording might be a little off. However, I was not "summoned" or asked to support anyone. @] pinged me and I gave my view. I did not say you SHOULD be reprimanded, I said IF anyone was to be sanctioned over this matter then it would be you. My reasoning for this is your attacking @], making broad statements questioning the intelligence of people at AFD discussions and using this forum incorrectly. As for what happens on Russian Misplaced Pages, that is their busines. I hope you have read @]'s comment as I think it sums this situation up nicely. ] (]) 15:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*:::: I haven't questioned anybody's intelligence. It is just my experience that many people trust the nominator and vote "delete" without much thinking. They maybe quickly visit the article in discussion, look at the "References" section, that's enough for them. And they typically don't speak Russian or Hebrew or whatever. So, when they see "Selepen", they hardly go to yandex.ru and search for "Шелепень". --] (]) 16:09, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*:::: Okay, "summon" is not the right word. Sorry. "He asked you to come". But that "I am going to be generous" sentence doesn't look polite. --] (]) 16:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*:::: According to , "summon" and "ask to" are the same thing. --] (]) 16:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*:::::@] | |||
| :::*:::::Cambridge Dictionary definition of summon (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/summon) is "to order someone to come to or be present at a particular place, or to officially arrange a meeting of people." | |||
| :::*:::::No-one ORDERED me to take part in this discussion. | |||
| :::*:::::If there is so much significant coverage for these skaters then the simple solution is for you to add it to the articles in question with suitable references and then AFDs will end as keep. | |||
| :::*:::::I am now finished with this discussion and I hope the admins step in and end it soon. | |||
| :::*:::::All the best to everyone involved. ] (]) 16:42, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*:::] wrote the following in his original complaint: ''”…decided to mass-delete articles that don't comply with WP:NSKATE… I am sure most articles he deleted had the right to stay per WP:GNG.”'' I don’t have the ability to “mass-delete” anything, and if most of those articles met ], the users at AFD would have voted to keep them. Just two examples of MC’s falsehoods. ] ] 16:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*::::OK. But you have also mass-prodded articles, that's the same as "deleting". (Like a "delayed deletion".) --] (]) 16:36, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Let me help you out here, Moscow Connection. As it happens, Bgsu98 is a veteran editor with both tens of thousands of edits and a long history of editing skating articles. He is not, as you imply, some bomb thrower hellbent in laying waste to skating articles. Moving right along ...<p>(2) Your curious assertion that he was the first person to AfD no-longer-qualifying skating articles is inaccurate; I did so myself, right after the NSPORTS changes, and I recall several editors also doing so.<p>(3) The Bialas AfDs did not close as Keep, as you wrongly assert. They closed as "no consensus", with almost no participation and multiple relistings; that's ''exactly'' the kind of situation where renomination to seek an actual consensus is appropriate.<p>(4) Rules change on Misplaced Pages, by the bucketload. I have a hard time seeing what is "very unfair" about this, unless "very unfair" is a secret code for "I don't like it, so it's unfair." And ... seriously? You've been on Misplaced Pages for fifteen years, have over sixty thousand edits, have participated in nearly a hundred AfDs? I'd expect this level of confusion from a first-week newbie, not from an editor of your experience. ] 06:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::He only joined in 2021. I've looked at his "Pages Created" count, what he has been doing is creating pages for small figure skating events (for their yearly editions) since late 2023. That's hardly "a long history". --] (]) 15:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::“Small figure skating events” like the National Championships of the U.S., Canada, France, Germany, and Italy; the Grand Prix series, including the Grand Prix Final; and the Challenger Series events? 1) Article Creation isn’t the only metric by which Misplaced Pages contributions can be measured, and 2) Referring to any of those events as “small” is ridiculous and insulting to all parties involved. I should have never even responded yesterday when three different administrators asserted that the original complaint was groundless. I’m done responding to this complainant. ] ] 17:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Given it is acknowledged that large numbers of articles on figure skaters do not meet Misplaced Pages's inclusion criteria ({{tq|What happened is that the notability guidelines for some sportspeople were changed a few years ago. And a large chunk of figure skater articles (most of them, honestly) are now outside of WP:NSKATE.}}), I’m not really seeing anything unexpected here. — | |||
| :] (]) 12:26, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :As someone uninvolved in all of this, I’m reading that OP gets into a dispute about AfDs and then goes to ANI to make their grievances more visible to admins. Does OP not realize that admins are primarily responsible for moderating, closing, and relisting AfD discussions? Also, as someone else pointed above, this is a content dispute: it does not meet the standard for being urgent, chronic, or intractable. OP’s choice to insult another user by calling their behavior “crazy” multiple times is inappropriate and makes me believe that they might have just thrown a ]. ] (]) 14:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :the bar for notability for skaters went up, someone came along and started nominating based on the new guidelines, and OP is upset. that seems to be the gist. i was not involved but didn't that happen in the porno biography area a few years ago? some change raised the bar so a lot of stuff was deleted. ] (]) 16:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Andries readding the link again: . ] <sup>]-]</sup> 16:53, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| * I do heavily advise slowing down on the nominations. There is not enough editors in the figure skating topic area to give the appropriate amount of time to search for sources for these articles. To be honest, I'm sure that a good number of ones that were closed as "delete" were actually notable but no one did any in-depth BEFORE search (many would not have coverage in English and the coverage would be in foreign newspaper archives). I asked the user yesterday about the extent of the BEFORE searches and only got "Yes, but not as much as some people like" – and then I asked what search was done for the most recent example, from a few hours prior, and they said they had no recollection (which is concerning IMO, to have no idea what searches you did for an article you nominated a few hours prior). Note that the AFD rationales are often ''really'' poor; many are simply {{tq|Non-notable figure skater}}, which doesn't say much of anything. ] (]) 16:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:I will slow down on nominations and focus on improving other aspects of the the FS articles, such as updating the infoboxes and tables to conform with our MOS. ] ] 17:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::And @], you can help by, when the nomination involves a person whose native language is written in non-Latin characters (e.g., Cyrillic or Hebrew), replying in the AfD with a link to the native language web search for that person to help establish the presence or absence of notability support. — ] ] 17:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::But there are 45 (!) articles nominated for deletion. I looked at the AfD page and understood that it was physically impossible to do anything. So I decided to bring this situation to the attention of the Misplaced Pages community. It is easy to create 1000 AfD nominations with the same rationale ("Non-notable figure skater"), but even these mere 45 AfD nominations utterly scared me and discouraged me from even looking at ]. (I really can't do anything. I have some other articles, the ones I created, that need attention. And I have long "to do" lists that wait for years to be taken care of.) --] (]) 17:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::The answer being, "So?" If neither the article creators nor anyone else has sought to provide ] for these articles -- the Ievleva article, for example, was created '''seventeen years ago''' -- then that just suggests no one's given enough of a damn to bother, and Misplaced Pages will survive these stubs' loss. It is not, nor ever has been, "physically impossible" to do anything about mass deletions; that's ridiculous. An AfD discussion is open for seven days, and it's easy to find adequate sources for an article ... certainly, in the cases of these Russian skaters, for a native speaker of Russian such as yourself. If you can't, the answer isn't that there's some flaw in the process or that Bgsu98 is pulling a fast one on us all. The answer is that the subjects are non-notable, and don't merit Misplaced Pages articles. ] 07:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::: The nominator has agreed to slow down, so the point is kind of moot, but I still wanted to make clear: Ravenswing, 45 AFDs rapidly is ridiculous, especially when next-to-no-BEFORE is done and there previously was no indication of stopping – remember that there's only a few editors in the topic area – ''and'' many of these, which are notable, require more than simple Google searches to find the coverage that demonstrates notability (i.e., for many, the coverage would be in places such as difficult-to-find offline newspapers in foreign languages) – making so many nominations rapidly without appropriate searches will inevitably result in some truly notable ones being deleted due to the lack of effort. While ''you'' may not care about the stubs, others do, and simply because the two editors who drive-by to the nom and say "Delete per above" didn't find coverage absolutely does not equate to the subject being confirmed non-notable. ] (]) 16:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Actually, I have attempted to do something yesterday. I voted and commented on two nominations. ("]" and "]".) Cause these two are Russian figure skaters, and I know they are famous enough. Immediately a user came and wholesale dismissed all the sources I found. I don't really want to play that game, it's too tiresome. I have found another source for Alexandra Ievleva just now. Let's see what the outcome will be.<br />But really, I can't do it anymore. Maybe if these were articles I created, I would invest into searching for sources. Now, I just tried a little bit and saw that some people really want to delete these articles for whatever reason. There are a few people actually searching for sources at some nominations, but mostly it's just that old "you go and provide third-party reliable sources independent of the subject, so I can look at them and dismiss them" game.<br />Okay, people will say I am the bad person here, but I have actually tried to save a couple of articles. I don't understand why people so eagerly want to delete articles than can actually be kept. (Okay, there are mostly interviews and short news about the figure skaters placing here and there or missing some events, but those sources are reliable enough. And one can actually take the sources into account and leave the articles be.)<br />By the way, I have tried searching on what was once ], but the news search doesn't work anymore. (.) There's nothing prior to 2024 when Yandex sold its assets including the news engine. And I can remember when the list of news articles there went back to 2003 or so... --] (]) 23:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::What I’m reading is that you don’t like how AfD works, and there hasn’t been any departure from normal processes. ANI is not the appropriate venue to discuss these issues. ] (]) 10:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I'm sorry if this looks like a ramble. These were initially two or three separate replies. --] (]) 23:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Arbitrary break=== | |||
| {{Od}} ...{{Tpq|editors who believe Misplaced Pages is bloated with biographies of marginally notable athletes}}. Just curious if you or anyone else honestly believes that the opinions of these editors takes priority over the view held in the real world that six million articles falls substantially short of "the sum of all human knowledge". contained the following statement: "According to one estimate, the sum of human knowledge would require 104 million articles". I know some of you are in serious denial and will try to suppress this as a result, but I'm gonna keep saying it anyway. We don't have the sum of all human knowledge, nor are we trying to achieve it. At best, we're the sum of what Google and legacy media has spoon-fed you today within the past X number of years.]/]/] (posted 00:37, January 9, 2025 UTC) | |||
| :RadioKAOS, I'm not going to argue about whose "view takes priority" in the area of the sum of human knowledge but in an AFD discussion, decisions are made by determining the consensus of the editors who bothered to show up and present compelling policy-based arguments. That is typically editors who are active on Misplaced Pages and have an opinion about an article, not any scholar coming up with estimates on the necessary number of articles we should have. How many AFDs do you participate in on a regular basis? And there is no one here that who will attempt to "suppress" your argument. As long as you are not personally attacking any editors, I think you are free to have whatever opinions you do have about this project. No penalty. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:52, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{re|Liz}} The problem is that these editors who "bother to show up" don't equally represent the community. Maybe I'm wrong, but there are some people who are mainly active on AfD and who act as "gatekeepers".<br />A normal editor can easily not notice when a page is nominated for deletion, but the AfD regulars will come and vote "delete".<br />Also, I wonder how it happened that the NSKATE guidelines were changed so drastically. I think I have found a discussion about that but I am not sure. A user who was tired of people voting "keep per ]", proposed to get rid of the "Misplaced Pages:Notability (sports)" completely. And then there was a discussion with around 70 people attending. But for some reason at least some sports got spared the worst fate (or got out intact), while figure skating was "destroyed". Moreover, the ] revision history shows signs of edit warring. So it is just possible that the "deletionists" were the most active/agressive and they won. Some sports wikiprojects defended their sports, and some like WikiProject Figure skating weren't active at the time and didn't do anything. --] (]) 17:50, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::], I guess you can choose to call them "gatekeepers" but I consider them dedicated volunteers. The number of editors who participate in AFDs has declined for at least the past two years, so if you can think of a way to get more editors involved, or if you want to help out by spending, let's say, 10 hours a week evaluating articles and sources in AFD deletion discussions, your help would be welcomed. But don't criticize the editors who actually show up and help. Without them, we would only have the opinions of editors who nominate articles for deletion and I'm sure you wouldn't like it if all of those nominated articles were simpy deleted without any feedback at all from other editors. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 06:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I am not an AfD regular, and what happens there scares me. When I commented, people just bombarded me with "This is not a third-party reliable source independent of the subject", and it didn't look to me like they even knew what "third-party" was. (I could swear my source was third-party and reliable and independent, but they said it was not and bombarded me with some random links to the WP space.) --] (]) 17:50, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I had a look at the AfDs you participated in and I think I can explain why there. In all the links you provided were to sports.ru - these are not independent because sports.ru is the website for the Russian sporting body of whom the subject is a member. They thus don't demonstrate the subject has any independent coverage of their athletic career. I hope this helps. ] (]) 14:02, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::You act like some people on AfD who dismiss sources "for the sake of dismissing". Why did even think it was a website for some "Russian sporting body of whom the subject is a member"? It is just a sports news website (a sports portal) like any other. --] (]) 20:56, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::]. Really, that's quite similar to what happens on AfD. I can go deep into Google Search, spend lots of time, but some people will just say "not third-party" or smth like this. Where do they see that and how do they come to their conclusions? It's a mystery to me. --] (]) 21:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :(nods) Heck, "some authority" came up with canards such as that we all ought to take 10,000 steps a day, drink eight glasses of water a day, and that our basal body temps are all 98.6. I likewise decline to bow before the suspect, threadbare wisdom of "one estimate" that we need 104,000,000 articles ... speaking of serious denial. (grins) ] 07:15, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :: {{re|Ravenswing}}, why are you trying to "repulse" my attemps to save a couple of articles at AfD? First, you came here to defend Bgsu98. And then, you came to the two nominations where I commented, only to wholesale dismiss all the sources I found.<br />And when I found another source, you said that there were "3 sentences" while there were actually 7.<br />I've looked at your contributions, you don't look like someone who can read Russian or has any interest in figure skating. So why are you doing this? (Okay, you can have the articles, you won.) --] (]) 16:49, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Please be careful with the ], Moscow Connection. --] 16:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Okay. --] (]) 17:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::My 2 cents. In my experience, Bgsu clearly does not conduct BEFORE searches (and seems proud of it), ignores actual coverage of the subjects (even when present in the articles), mass nominates batches of articles (50 in 30 minutes is a hilarious example), consistently fails to adhere to AGF, quickly re-nominates articles when the result is not to their liking, inaccurately summarizes examples of SIGCOV when they are provided in discussions, and tops it off by clearing their XfD logs. ] (]) 21:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: That's a significant number of evidence-free aspersions you're casting, would you like to evidence them? Incidentally, mass-nominating articles isn't necessarily an issue; I have done it in the past but I still examined each article before nominating them in one batch. ] 21:33, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I do not wish to dig through hundreds of AfDs, no. Just providing what I've gathered in my experience. And I disagree that 50 AfDs in half an hour is not an issue. | |||
| :::::::Here is one example of the types of responses you can expect to get when you provide SIGCOV in one of his discussions: {{tq|Nobody is going to add anything to this article. The same people pop up on these AFD's, squawk about how someone having their picture taken for their local newspaper qualifies as "significant coverage", and then the article is left in the same crappy condition it was when we started.}} ] (]) 21:40, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::And ] is an example of the nom wholly ignoring GNG and insisting on using deprecated NSPORTS guidelines ''after'' SIGCOV was added to the article. Dozens and dozens of more examples. ] (]) 21:46, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::] example of ignoring SIGCOV ''already present'' in the article. ] (]) 21:53, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::{{Ping|GiantSnowman}} {{Ping|Black Kite}} ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] more examples, all within a week of eachother and many with SIGCOV already present in the article. ] (]) 21:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::] is an example from two days ago where they nominated a skater who finished top 4 at the World Championships because they assumed the sources in the article were the only sources available on the subject. ] (]) 22:00, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::OK this AFD, coupled with the historical ones, is very concerning. I understand that not every editor is going to be able to find every source, but it appears that Bgsu98 does not even bother looking. I would support a topic ban from AFDs. ]] 22:03, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::] and ] is an example of four users expressing their concerns about BEFORE searches and their misunderstanding of notability policies. More recently, concerns were raised ] and , although bgsu deleted the latter from their talk page with the message {{tq|Stay off my talk page. You have some nerve using the term “good will” considering your appalling behavior.}} ] (]) 22:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::And here are ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] examples of nom ignoring the concept of GNG and/or entirely disregarding SIGCOV already present in the article. As Liz notes ], close to 100 articles were deleted through PROD before I was able to contest them. Many of these that I contested and were later kept in AfDs with clear GNG passes are present among the examples I've given. ] (]) 22:19, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::Thanks - anything more recent than May 2024? ]] 22:02, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::It would be helpful if you could provide some examples of a) a number of nominations in a short period of time and b) several AFDs where the rationale is deeply flawed. ]] 21:53, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::: If you go to 10 May 2024 , you get exactly '''50''' nominations in 30 minutes. A good number of those were kept per . ] (]) 22:03, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::Great, thanks - see above, I think we need an AFD topic ban. ]] 22:04, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Well, let's start with that I'm a frequent participant at ANI, and I no more "came here to defend" anyone than any other editor who's chimed in here. I dismissed those sources wholesale because I burned some time to look over each and every one of them (as did more than one editor), and found that ] provided the "significant coverage" in detail to the subjects that the GNG requires. As it happens, I have edited skating articles in the past -- you're not claiming to have truly gone through my whole twenty-year contribution history, are you?<p>So why am I doing this? Perhaps it's strange to you that anyone could act out of a dispassionate wish to uphold Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, instead of out of partisan motives, but you'll find that most ANI regulars do just that. ] 21:18, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I've participated in a lot of these AfDs, I believe mostly !voting delete, and I've gotta say I am not happy to see it implied that AfD participants were blindly going along with Bgsu. I guarantee that I perform thorough searches on every single AfD I !vote it, ''especially'' these mass-noms with essentially no rationale. Bgsu's noms are, for better or worse, fairly accurate and generally result in the deletion of articles that should be deleted. ''However'', I have seen several examples of incivility and assuming bad faith from this user (although I have experienced neither myself) and I agree that the sheer quantity of nominations does not promote a healthy level of community input. The individual noms are generally okay, but mass noms like ], tried participating in, and gave up on can be a little overwhelming. I doubt this merits any sanctions, but maybe a ratelimit on AfD noms (20 per day?) is called for. ] </span>]] 22:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:I did say a few days ago I wasn't going to engage in this discussion any further but since I keep getting notifications about it I figured I'd weigh in as the conversation seems to have gone in a totally different direction. As @] and others have pointed out I too am not happy that it is being implied that people who voted in these AFDs are blindly following @] without doing any independent research. I refuted this on the figure skating talk page when this all started and on this page. Also, as has been previously pointed out by other editors, this particular discussion began with @] basically not liking the rules on significant coverage and then coming to this forum to seek retribution against @]. Now it seems that their improper use of this forum, ref bombing of articles and general complaining that they don't like something and how unfair it is in their opinion, may actually lead to them getting what they want. This sets a very poor precedent that if you don't like something on Misplaced Pages and you jump up and down and wail about it enough you can get your way. Yes @] probably nominates too many similar articles at one time but they have agreed to slow down now, and yes they have nominated articles for AFD that have then been kept because significant coverage was found, but they have also nominated a lot of articles which have not been found to have significant coverage and have subsequently been deleted following the due, consensus based procedure and closed as such by an admin. @] is already seeking to have articles which have been deleted following AFDs unilaterally reopened. If you now sanction @] we may as well just give Jimmy Wales a call and ask him to hand over Misplaced Pages to the whims and wants of @] ] (]) 23:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*I haven't asked anybody to give Misplaced Pages over to me. What do you mean by "unilaterally reopened"? If you are refering to me asking {{u|Star Mississippi}} to undelete the "]" article, what's wrong with it? It was deleted without a proper Google search, and I have found some sources for her. Just look at ]. At the very end, a user that goes by the name of {{u|Kvng}}, noticed: {{tq|No one in this discussion (including myself) has mentioned anything about searching for coverage that may satisfy WP:GNG}}, but that was all, no one did anything. You and another user seem to have claimed here that you do a proper search on every Bgsu98's nomination, but I don't see you on that AfD page.<br />You really sound like you think I'm doing something awful in my attempt to rescue an article. Come on, she's not someone terrible who wants to promote herself on Misplaced Pages or something. She's just a fairly famous figure skater. You don't need to defend Misplaced Pages from her. --] (]) 00:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*I've decided to save "]" (]) and I've already found a couple of dozen articles talking about her. Yes, maybe the others will say those are mostly interviews and the Women's Sport website is not good enough, but I have found lots and lots about her! I don't think you or Bgsu98 would be able to do that cause you don't read Russian and don't know how to search (I tried to add different additional key words, and every time I found something new). --] (]) 00:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:1 you don't know if I read Russian, Chinese, Martian or what, 2 now you say I "don't know how to search" which is yet another unfounded suggestion that I don't make any effort before giving opinions on AFDs, 3 you don't know what searches were done on Lilia Biktagirova and neither do I, 4 I wasn't involved in that discussion and I try to focus more on adding to articles then deleting them, 5 my point was, and is, you don't like the rules so you have launched a campaign of complaining to try to get your way instead of going through the proper channels and seeking to get consensus to alter said rules. Frankly I'm tired of this and of you belittling everyone else as if you are the only person who knows what is right and are somehow able to read the minds and intentions of everyone else. Go ahead and, as you put it, "save" your Russian skaters. I genuinely hope you do and that the articles are filled with interesting and well-sourced information. That's the aim of Misplaced Pages to inform the population about things worth knowing. ] (]) 00:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:*"{{tq|You don't know if I read Russian, Chinese, Martian or what}}"<br />— What I do is called ]. What you just did by claiming you can read Martian, I honestly don't know.<br />I've started this discussion because I saw the user's 45 nominations at ] and that scared me a lot. --] (]) 01:00, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:*:It's called ironic humour and, with everything going on in the world right now, if a Misplaced Pages AFD scared you a lot then you are obviously in the very fortunate position to have so few worries. Anyway I'm moving on to spend my time more productively. I sincerely wish you the best in your endeavours. ] (]) 01:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **I appreciate your input and insight. As I told ] earlier, I promised to slow down on nominations, and in fact, I had decided that I wouldn't even entertain the idea of additional nominations until the ones already in the system work their way through.<br>I can also promise to strive to be more thorough in researching these potential nominations and provide more detailed rationales in the future. I am also fine with any limitations that the community requests in terms of numbers of nominations. Twenty per day seems awfully high; I was thinking more like two! ] ] 23:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **:Sorry, Bgsu, I completely missed that you had committed to slowing down. I think that's a great idea that resolves the issue here. Just remember, when you get frustrated by other editors, do your best to stay polite – if you can't, simply step away from the keyboard for a moment. I don't want to see you get in trouble for one too many snarky comments. ] </span>]] 09:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **20 nominations per day is 7300 per year. The limit should be more like 0. (And if it is decided to be 1 or something like that, Bgsu98 will have to demonstrate that he has searched for sources every time. I prefer 0, naturally.) --] (]) 00:16, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **:A limit of 0 is asinine, and I highly suggest you strike this comment. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 18:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **::Yeah, agreed - really not helping move away from the comments above the MC is here because they don't like AFD. ]] 18:57, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:While I do not know whether @] should be restricted from AfD as I haven't been able to go into the weeds on this, I disagree with {{tq|I doubt this merits any sanctions, but maybe a ratelimit on AfD noms (20 per day?) is called for.}} @]. No editor should be nominating 20 articles per day. That's unsustainable for AfD participants, clerks or closers. We do not have the editor volume to assess that many nominations from one nominator. ] ] 00:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::20 per day is a lot, but given the numbers thrown around above (50 in 30 minutes) I figured it would be a massive improvement. But since Bgsu has committed to nominating ''far'' fewer articles with {{tq|Twenty per day seems awfully high; I was thinking more like two!}} I suppose the whole discussion is moot. ] </span>]] 11:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I don't think it's that easy. The question is who will check all the hundreds or thousands of his previous nominations. Definitely not me. (I've looked through several active ones, found some sources, commented here and there, and got very tired.)<br />As I have commented below, when problems were found with {{u|Sander.v.Ginkel}}'s articles, he was told to go through all his articles and check them. (Actually, there was a user who volunteered to help, but that user was revealed to be Sander.v.Ginkel himself, cause no one in their right mind would have volunteered to check 40000 articles. I, personally, don't want to be a slave and don't want to check Bgsu98's past nominations, especially knowing how little effort he put into creating them and that I would have to spend years looking for sources.) --] (]) 11:29, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::It's a volunteer project. Someone may choose to, as you did initially, or no one will. But unless they're salted, there's nothing prohibiting restoration to drafts if ] can be found. We can fix going forward but can't always fix what happened before even when there's a collaborative effort. ] ] 13:40, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Of note. User JTtheOG is canvassing apparent like-minded editors to this discussion, and . ] (]) 23:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:They are not like-minded actually. In fact, both had previously expressed they disagreed with my initial assertions, which I had not yet provided evidence for. I was notifying them of examples being provided here of previously unsubstantiated aspersions. ] (]) 23:44, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::"As per previous discussions..." I love hearing that ] is having discussions about me with other users, but has never once attempted to communicate directly to me. (Snide comments in AFD's don't count as broaching conversation.) ] ] 00:11, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ** If even that's true, no none came. (No one of the whole two.) And Bgsu98 did the same by pinging his like-minded AfD colleague. (He pinged him immediately.) --] (]) 00:21, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * As a fellow ] participant, and without having gone over the particular cases, I am normally a rather deletion-oriented editor but am an inclusionist for skating specifically as sources are not as online on this topic as usual, and often in foreign languages, so I am not usually in favor of deleting a skater's article unless we really do exhaust all possible sources of notability. I do request that {{ping|Bgsu98}} convene a broader discussion over notability as I also do disagree with the current guidelines, but even without that a discussion is warranted. Even if a mass deletion ''is'' warranted, it should be handled in one mass AfD, not a gazillion separate ones.--] ] 01:11, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I came across this randomly in my watchlist.. can I recommend ''everyone'' take a step back and focus on the issue at hand? Currently, ] states the following: {{tq|Search for additional sources, if the main concern is notability: The minimum search expected is a normal Google search, a Google Books search, a Google News search, and a Google News archive search; Google Scholar is suggested for academic subjects.}} So, I'd ask {{ping|Moscow Connection}} to please consider whether their views on BEFORE are in line with what it actually says. I appreciate that MC states many of these nominated articles are for non-English speaking and in some cases non-Western world skaters, and so it may not be possible to find many of the potential sources in an English language Google search.{{pb}}But MC, can you identify any deletion nominations for which there were sources that could be found in any of the following: ''a normal Google search'', or a ''Google Books search'', or a ''Google News search'', or a ''Google News archive search''? If you can identify such, please provide the deletion discussion, and a link or other method of showing us how you came across the sources on one of those searches. If you can't, then it sounds like your argument is more for '''expanding ] to require non-English language searches for non-English subjects'''. I take no strong view on whether it would be a good idea - I think that BEFORE should certainly ''recommend'' more far reaching searches for subjects who may not be satisfied by a Google search.. but ''required''? Not everyone knows how to use other search engines, and they may not even know what terms to use (or be able to type them easily). And that doesn't even begin to touch the big problem with Google - Google results (if you're logged in, at least), are '''significantly''' based on your search history, and if you use Google Chrome browser (on mobile or PC), or the Android OS, they are also based on your usage of those platforms (such as websites visited, apps used, etc). So it's entirely possible that MC searching Google may see a result on the first page or two that someone else searching Google would not have seen on the first couple pages at all.{{pb}}Regardless, that's an argument/discussion to be had on another page (likely ]). Since this all seems to be a misconstruing of BEFORE by MC, and assuming everyone involved tones down the rhetoric, I'd recommend this move towards a reminder to MC that BEFORE, as it stands now, does '''not''' require anything beyond a Google (and Google News and Google Books) to be searched, and until that changes, the mere fact sources exist on other search engines does not constitute a violation of BEFORE unless there is evidence they would've been found through those search means. And I recommend that MC (or anyone, really) starts a discussion ''at the appropriate place'' if they think changes to BEFORE are necessary. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | ] | ] 01:20, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ** I read this and tried to search some names from AfD on Google Books. A search for ]'s name definitely returns something non-trivial: ("Nicole Nönnig kehrte allerdings nach kurzer Pause zurück . Mit Matthias Bleyer bildete sie ein Paar , das 2003 sogar internationale Wettbewerbe bestritt . Die Schlittschuhe haben Nicole und Matthias inzwischen jedoch an den Nagel ..."). --] (]) 01:36, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **:I'll leave this to others to discuss, but this is the type of "evidence" you would be expected to produce to show that the user did not comply with BEFORE. That said, one instance of mention in a book does not meet ], so unless you can show that there are ''multiple'' instances of ''significant'' coverage in reliable sources that would've been found on a BEFORE, then it still doesn't mean that the user did not do a valid BEFORE. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | ] | ] 01:41, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **:: Here's a link to the book: . (I've tried and tried, but I don't know how to add "bks" to the Google Books search URL.) --] (]) 01:45, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **:: A search for "李宣潼" on Google News returned this article: and a couple more. The one I linked looks very solid, it is a full-fledged biography. (The AfD discussion is here: ]. As usual, the rationale is: {{tq|Non-notable figure skater; no senior-level medal placements.}}) --] (]) 02:13, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **:: And one more article → about Li Xuantong and her partner ] (also nominated for deletion by Bgsu98). It's like a print magazine article + interview, looks "massive". --] (]) 02:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **:: Another example: ].<br />A simple Google News search for "김유재 2009" returns a lot. I didn't look too far, but I found two lengthy articles about her and her twin sister on the first page (, ) and voted "keep".<br />(I would also note that there are already some AfD regulars present in that discussion. But no one has googled her name.) --] (]) 03:59, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **:: OMG, Bgsu98 nominated her sister for deletion, too: ]. He nominated her on January 1, and no one has commented since. (Okay, I'll vote now and save her.) --] (]) 04:03, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **:::You ''do'' realize there’s a difference between an article about a person and the person themselves? You’re not saving anyone here. You are a volunteer Misplaced Pages editor, not a volunteer firefighter. ] (]) 06:21, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **::::{{re|HyperAccelerated}} Did it sound strange or silly? Sure, I understand the difference. But people do say "article's notability" when it's actually "the notability of an article's subject". I thought that an article and its subject are interchangeable in colloquial wikispeech. --] (]) 06:29, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I know the entire thing is a bit of a long read, but I would like to note that Bgsu98's tendency to make XFDs without any regard for GNG/BASIC - even for those where GNG/BASIC is met (], ], ]) - dates back to ]. In fact, last year ] (which they then deleted) that this issue was creating more work for editors, but this is still continuing as of late. There seems to be an IDHT issue with ]. ]@] 02:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Alright, trying to defuse the situation more. {{ping|Bgsu98}} It appears that MC has been able to provide at least two examples for which there are ''multiple'' examples of potentially significant coverage in reliable sources independent of the subject. And another user has identified at least 3 other AfDs in which sources were quickly found by other users. Yes, some of them (such as MC's examples) were found by Google searching the non-Latin alphabet version of the subject's name, but nothing in BEFORE suggests that searching only the subject's Latin name is appropriate. And it appears that these sources are all found with a quick Google search of the subject's name in the non-Latin script. Can you explain why you did not find these sources, or why, if you did find these sources, you did not identify them at the AfD discussion and/or did not consider them sufficient for GNG? -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | ] | ] 04:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::What do you think of the limitations on nominating articles that ] already stated they were willing to adopt? It's higher up in this discussion. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:17, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I spent a good 30-45 minutes reading this discussion before I made my first comment attempting to defuse this. I do not think that a voluntary restriction is going to be a good thing here, unless it is given the enforceability that a consensus here can give. I initially was concerned that EC was making this report with a poor understanding of BEFORE. But given that EC (and another editor) has/have now provided multiple examples of Google searches that show, at least at first glance, one or more sources that meet GNG for their related articles, I think there is ample evidence that Bgsu98 is violating BEFORE. I don't particularly care ''why'' they're violating BEFORE, but I would support waiting for their explanation regardless.{{pb}}If Bgsu98 is unable to provide any legitimate explanation for the at least 3 cases that have been identified now as having clear sources in the searches required by BEFORE, I would support a restriction on nominating articles for deletion in any way (PROD or AfD, or otherwise) since they cannot be trusted to follow BEFORE before they do so.{{pb}}All of that said, I think this should be moved to a subsection - starting with EC and Miraclepine's reports of specific cases. I stepped in as what you may call an inclusionist, thinking I'd be in support of sanctions immediately, but this is a complicated situation, and to be blunt, everything above my comment seems to have led nowhere. At the same time, I support giving Bgsu98 a chance to respond explaining why their BEFORE search was sufficient, before any sanctions are issued. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | ] | ] 05:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I've provided some 20 examples as well. ] (]) 05:36, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I would say: "Not before Bgsu98 goes through all his previous nominations and his PRODs and searches for sources for them." He probably deleted (okay, "nominated") hundreds of pages, he did enough damage and now should work on fixing it. --] (]) 05:43, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::That's not too helpful right now, man. No one can be forced to do anything. ] (]) 07:38, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I don't propose to force anyone. But I have just came across a ] and remembered how he was told to go through all the articles he had created and check/fix them before creating more. We have a similar situation here, I think. --] (]) 07:45, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Articles that should not have been deleted have been kept by consensus at AfD. This is how AfD works. They are in the exact same state that they were before they were nominated, perhaps even better by ]. No “damage” has occurred. Additionally, if you think an article has been deleted when it shouldn’t, it is ''your'' responsibility to bring your concerns to DRV. This does not change just because you made a thread at ANI. You do not get to pick and choose which policies apply to whom. ] (]) 18:12, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Bgsu has already agreed to limit their nominations to a couple a day. This is a far stricter constraint than what could have probably been reached by consensus. What more do you want? For reasons I don’t understand, your response to this is “the limit should be more like 0” without any grounding in policy. As I see it, Bgsu is plainly negotiating in good faith, while your behavior is bordering on bullying. ] (]) 18:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::@] has hit the nail on the head. This discussion should have been tossed immediately or at least closed down well before now. The early responses were that this was a content dispute not appropriate for ANI then the OP kept going with rapid fire posts and a few editors who appear to have a pre-existing axe to grind with @] revved it up into what it has become. As a side note it will be very interesting to see how the outstanding AFDs are adjudicated and by whom. ] (]) 18:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{OD}} | |||
| *'''Oppose any sanctions''' to Bgsu98. I did a spot-check of some of the more contentious AfDs and, honestly, the keep !votes did not provide a compelling argument to keep in any of those cases. As I mentioned to {{U|Moscow Connection}} above, for example, they provided six links to one of the subjects - and every single link was in the sports.ru domain which is not independent and does not establish notability for a Russian athlete. It's very unfortunate that so many editors here have expressed either distain for or fear of the AfD process, which is integral to the quality of this project and which I would heartily encourage more editors to participate in. And I can assure those people with misconceptions that many AfDs conclude with an article being kept or with no consensus - which is a de-facto keep. The sum of all human knowledge is a lofty goal. But one philosophical point I would ask extreme inclusionists to consider is that there is a difference between knowledge and data. AfD is a process whereby we distinguish between knowledge and data according to criteria - imperfect criteria surely but criteria - which we agreed to as participants in this project. We shouldn't be punishing a person for efficiently doing a hard job just because it's one that has a side-effect of upsetting people. ] (]) 19:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:In case it was not already clear I too '''Oppose''' sanctions against @]. They should be given the chance to prove they will stick to their pledge to slow down on AFD nominations. Also sanctioning them will set a precedent for others who are unhappy with AFD proceeses and outcomes to seek similar sanctions against other nominators and could well have the effect of putting many people off participating in the process for fear of retribution when in fact it would be better if more people took part. ] (]) 20:12, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::Whereas I '''support''' some kind of restriction on the number of AFDs they can start per day. ]] 20:16, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I offered up self-imposed restrictions above, including the caveat that there would be no further skating nominations until the ones currently in the system work their way through. According to ], my last nomination was January 7th. As more contentious AFD's can sometimes take up to a month to process, that should allow for sufficient time. ] ] 20:33, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::To be fair, your log is regularly cleared, including your ]. ] (]) 20:58, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::Once an AFD is settled, I remove it. What's the problem? The log shows active AFD's only. ] ] 21:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * How about ] just agrees to not nominate more than, I don't know, two articles per day (based on their comment {{tq|I am also fine with any limitations that the community requests in terms of numbers of nominations. Twenty per day seems awfully high; I was thinking more like two!}}) and we end the discussion? ] (]) 21:02, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:@] I second this proposal. ] (]) 21:20, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::We should definitely end it. I'm not an admin but that seems more than fair. ] (]) 21:46, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Two a day is fine by me. ]] 22:15, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ** I think there should be a requirement for him to show some sources he has found. (In every nomination. If there aren't any, then a link to a Google search query can suffice.)<br />Cause I've seen him lately on some figure skater articles in my watchlist, and I don't see him adding any references ever. It looks like his edits are purely technical. (As well as his nominations.) He doesn't really add to the encyclopedic content, just updates scores and changes the table formatting. (And nominates for deletion.)<br />Does he ever search the net? That's the question. Has it happened even once that he wanted to delete an article and then found a source for it, added the source and went away? --] (]) 21:29, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **:Wow. Mister "I would also like to note that I am polite" is again denigrating others' work, as if adding scores and formatting tables to meet Misplaced Pages's MOS is unimportant. "He doesn't really add to the encyclopedic content." Yep, very polite. ] ] 22:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *: And, as I've said, one should also search in the skater's native language. And for Russian figure skaters, Google doesn't work, you need Yandex. (And Yandex is not good as a search engine, some effort is needed to find anything. The major sports websites have profiles for everyone, you need to find the needed profile and go from there. It sounds too complicated, but that's how it is.) --] (]) 21:30, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ** Also, he doesn't appear to know how to use the ]. The ] article had a good reference, I found it in the archive. His nomination (]) doesn't mention the reference, like if it doesn't exist. Maybe he didn't even look at the references section. --] (]) 22:10, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ** What I mean is that he should be required to show some sources he has found and to explain why these sources do not suffice. (After all, if he nominates an article, then obviously he doesn't find the coverage sufficient.)<br />There's always something. (Almost always.) But since he nominates mostly skaters who have finished their careers, the number of potential sources (news articles) found on the internet shouldn't be big. There are usually just a few. --] (]) 22:10, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == User:Smm380 and logged out editing == | |||
| :SSS108 and I have a dispute about how to proceed with dispute resoluton. See ]. ] 12:20, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *{{userlinks|Smm380}} | |||
| *{{IPlinks|195.238.112.0/20}} | |||
| I have this editor twice about logged out editing because they are evidently editing the article ] both logged in and as an IP. This makes tracking their edits more difficult since they have made hundreds altogether in recent months (and they are only focused on this specific article). The IP edits seem to come from ] (at least most of them) and they are often made shortly before/after Smm380 decides to log back in. See for example edit by Smm380 and edit by the IP a few minutes later regarding the same section. This is now especially a problem because they are deciding to make as an IP. | |||
| In general, they have not listened to prior warnings. I have given them multiple warnings about adding unsourced text, but they are still continuing to unsourced text without including citations first. But they have not responded to any of my warnings or explained why they are still doing this. ] (]) 09:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ==Don't worry, be happy== | |||
| Can someone please check this song's page? I went in to add a movie reference in that section, thought I was fixing something, but further look showed me that someone at 147.10.240.73 did some massive changes that are all incorrect this morning. I moved it back to the december 7 version and then added the reference, but if someone else could check it for any other errors that would probably be good. | |||
| :I noticed the concerns raised regarding edits made both from my account and an IP address, and I’d like to clarify that this was neither intentional nor malicious. I simply forgot to log into my account while making those edits. | |||
| == User:61.91.191.11 == | |||
| :I apologize if this caused any confusion. My sole intention was to improve content related to Ukrainian history, a topic I am deeply passionate about. | |||
| :Regarding the delayed response to your messages, I sincerely apologize. I hadn’t noticed the notifications until recently, as I was unfamiliar with how Misplaced Pages’s messaging system works. Now that I understand it better, I’ll ensure to respond more promptly in the future. | |||
| :I truly appreciate the valuable work you do to maintain the quality and reliability of Misplaced Pages. I will make sure to contribute responsibly and stay logged in during my future edits. ] (]) 16:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Another not here IP == | |||
| Please take a look at this IP's edit history. He is constantly putting in unsourced POV wherever he sees fit and even removes large portions of text. The IP talk page has several warnings. Can we get this guy blocked from further edits? | |||
| {{atop|1=Blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 03:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| --] | |||
| {{User|2601:18C:8183:D410:1D8C:39C9:DCEE:1166}} is altering another users posts to insert political commentary ] as well as making PA's, with a clear statement they do not intend to stop ], and edit warring over it as well. ] (]) 14:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Now past 3rr reinsertion of their alteration of another users post. So its now vandalism. ] (]) 14:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I also noticed while going through the edits he is spamming it with commercial links or childish remarks. Look at his edit on the ]. | |||
| --] | |||
| As well as this tit for tat report ]. ] (]) 14:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| :IP blocked for edit warring. --] 14:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| OK. The article was initially nominated and I think deleted for being a non-notable resturaunt. However, I'm thinking it is notable, but the problem is with the way the name is transliterated(and the fact that there are multiple permutations of it) is that it is difficult to find material referring to it.. The user trying to protect the article from deletion cited these: http://www.paklinks.com/gs/archive/index.php/t-175827.html http://lahore.metblogs.com/archives/2006/11/lahores_seven_g.phtml http://www.pakistanimusic.com/lyrics/AliHaider-AaraPajama.txt http://www.chowk.com/show_user_replies.cgi?membername=Romair&start=630&end=639&page=64&chapter=7 http://www.readysteadybook.com/BookReview.aspx?isbn=0060740426 and a small mention in a local(for Lahore, anyway) magazine, http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:sdMp3lgYsxoJ:www.newsline.com.pk/Newsdec2003/lifedec2003.htm+phajja+lahore&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2 | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Heritage Foundation planning to doxx editors == | |||
| I'm not sure if it's enough to prove notability, but it's enough to make it debatable.. I'm at least under the impression that the article should not have been ], as it doesn't really read like an advertisement.--] 09:49, 15 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|result=Closing to prevent a split discussion. The most central discussion about this is currently held at ]. —] 22:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| :OK, so how is this handled anyway? Do I start a new discussion on the old discussion page or what? anyone care to give me some direction?--] 04:22, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| See ]. Various sources are beginning to report on this, see , . It seems they plan to “identify and target Misplaced Pages editors abusing their position by analyzing text patterns, usernames, and technical data through data breach analysis, fingerprinting, HUMINT, and technical targeting,” and “engage curated sock puppet accounts to reveal patterns and provoke reactions, information disclosure,” and “push specific topics to expose more identity-related details.” An IP user on the discussion page says "they intend to add malicious links (sources) that will set cookies, grab your IP, and get tracking going for your device. This has likely already started. Be careful, there are lots of ways to hide where a link goes." ] (]) 17:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I think there's a far more productive discussion going on at ]. ] (]) 17:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::A friendly reminder: It's always a good time to review the strength and age of account passwords, plus consider two-factor verification. The world is constantly changing... ] (]) 17:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Isn't doxing a federal/punishable offense in ten states (more or less), including DC? If they grab the information of or out a minor, that can easily be taken on as a form of harassment and won't end well. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 17:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::No doubt the Trump adminstration will make pursuing such cases a high priority. ]] 22:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm unsure why this isn't a WMF issue, due to potential legal and safeguarding issues. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 19:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::The WMF has been made aware. ] (she/her • ]) 19:56, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Truffle457 == | |||
| ::You can post it at ], be sure to provide links to your sources there. ]<small> <sup>(Need help? ])</sup></small> 04:24, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|result=Editor blocked indefinitely. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| :::Thank you. Done.--] 05:42, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| {{user|Truffle457 }} | |||
| ::::What if no one responds?--] 06:57, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::If there is no consensus then the closure of the AfD is endorsed. ]<small> <sup>(Need help? ])</sup></small> 18:02, | |||
| 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'm not sure if it means anything, but an administrator removed the AfD notice from the page.--] 18:56, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Hi Vercalos, that was me. The AfD notice at the top of the article linked to the old AfD page ] from April. No new AfD was created (or needed to be), so I removed the AfD notice. It was correctly speedily deleted by HighInBC and can be undeleted if consensus is as such at DRV -- ] 00:52, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Indefblock on ] == | |||
| I don't even know what to call this. This user has few edits but most are like this. ] (]) 22:15, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| User has been indef-blocked, it seems, by ], for death threats (see ]). Just bringing it to attention here. While I support the indef block for the threats, I cannot support how J Di dealt with the situation initially with a one-week block. That seems extraordinarily long for general incivility. Even given the user's past block log, last civility-related block was in May. Cannot see how a new bout of incivility warrants one week. Still, fully support indef block. – ]] 16:19, 15 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :This is a new user with only a single level I notice on their page. I've issued a level II caution for using talk pages as a forum and added a welcome template. If this persists, stronger measures may be needed. -] (]) 22:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :], I'd advise talking with an editor, through words, not templates, before filing a complaint at ANI. That's a general recommendation unless there is active vandalism going on. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 22:53, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::His comments are disturbing tbh. ] (]) 22:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::The user's response to {{U|Ad Orientem}}'s warning demonstrates that they have no insight into their misconduct and are ].--] (]) 23:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{notdone|Indeffed}} per WP:CIR. -] (]) 23:48, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Well, by having a conversation, you discerned that CIR applied. Some communication, I think, is better than silence at least when you are trying to make sense of an unclear situation. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == YZ357980, second complaint == | |||
| :Why not leave J Di a message on their talk page and discuss it with them? ] <sup><small><font color="DarkBlue">]</font></small></sup> 16:28, 15 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I have again reverted {{u|YZ357980}}'s insertion of an image of dubious copyright; change of Somali Armed Forces native-name to an incorrect format; and violation of ] at ] - see ] which had another editor fix the incorrect file format. I believe this editor is ] and not willing to communicate and I would request administrator attention to this matter. Kind regards ] ] 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :For the record, that image has been on Commons since 2015 and was made by a different user. That said, YZ357980 continues to make these borderline disruptive edits and has ''never'' posted on an article talk page or a user talk page. I've pblocked them from articlespace until communication improves, as it is ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:51, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::1. Thankyou!! Much appreciated!! | |||
| ::2. Yes I was aware of the status of those images, but I repeatedly told YZ357980 that it was of borderline copyright and WP had to follow US copyright law. I have managed to get the equivalent Iraqi ones deleted; I will go after the Somali ones to try to get them deleted. | |||
| ::3. ''Someone'' (an anon IP) posted on his talkapage as if replying, see . Please feel free to reconsider your actions should you wish, but I continue to believe YZ357980 is NOTHERE. ] ] 18:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Given which is clearly YZ not logged in, the block has been changed to full indef. - ] <sub>]</sub> 00:01, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == My reverted edit at List of Famicom Disk System games == | |||
| ::It's general practice for most admins to note indefblocks here for other admins to review. I happened to come across this one. No idea why J Di did not do so. – ]] 16:30, 15 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=At worst, this deserves a {{tl|minnow}}. This is, at heart, a content dispute, and ] is the place to discuss it. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:44, 9 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| Hi | |||
| I added {{tl|clear}} to the top of table of ] to make the table use the whole horizontal space. I did it according to other list of video games articles and reception section of some video games articles to help the table list look better or not reception table to conflict with references (double column references more specifically). | |||
| :::I am aware of the practice and understand your concern completely, but I still don't see why a public callout here is preferable to bringing the matter directly to <s>Tasc</s>, J Di. ] <sup><small><font color="DarkBlue">]</font></small></sup> 16:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| However {{ping|NakhlaMan}} reverted my edit and with a rude language called it "UGLIER" and calls it waste of too much space. | |||
| Um, he didn't block for death threats, only "threats". Tasc was extremely uncivil and deserves a two week break, maybe even a month, but I don't support an indef for telling someone to "fuck off". The indef should be shortened. ] | ] 16:38, 15 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I don't know, "I'll fucking kill you" is a death threat to me... – ]] 16:40, 15 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| With my edit, it adds just a small space to the top of list heading but the table could be read easier and uses the whole available space. ] (]) 04:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I don't think this is the right place for this. Yes, the user could have been much nicer on their opinion, but this is too much of an escalation, too fast. I would advise commenting on their talk page, or on the page talk page. Cheers, ] <sup><small>]</small></sup> 04:18, 9 January 2025 (UTC) {{nacmt}} | |||
| :::agreed with pschemp. The original one week block was a bit excessive, even if a block was warranted. However, I could definitely see a 3-4 week block, perhaps even with a talk page lock to prevent that kind of nonsense. ]<sup>]|]</sup> 16:45, 15 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Yes, their edit summary was mildly rude, but this is not actionable, please open a discussion on the article's talk page.]] 04:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Edit War in Korean clans of foreign origin == | |||
| :::I tend to agree w/ pschemp and Pat (i.e. a month). HOwever, he should apologize and understand that got no place here. -- '']'' - <small>]</small> 16:50, 15 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| {{Atop|Ger2024 blocked as a sock.--] (]) 14:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| User: Ger2024 | |||
| {{Userlinks|Ger2024}} | |||
| :Why on earth would we invite this person to keep editing here? ] 17:37, 15 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Well unless he apologizes, I don't think we should. But if he does, a second chance is warranted. ] | ] 17:47, 15 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Ger2024 has been ] and violated ] (they have as of now made five reverts) and possibly ] despite my direct requests asking them to and to instead discuss with me and @CountHacker on the Talk Page. While they did respond to my efforts to try to talk to them on the Talk Page, they immediately then reverted my edits after they made their comments. The initial edits started when another Misplaced Pages user was verifying and deleting some info on the page (likely for factual accuracy) when the reverts began. | |||
| ''(edit conflict)'' I've seen this guy revert war on several templates, and I've seen him be uncivil to another user about one. He had the block coming; he's been warned enough about his incivility on other pages by other users. He chose to continue. Because of that, I felt a one week block was justified. I'm not going to blame anything on the first block because how a person behaves is up to them. I'm not going to try and stop anybody from unblocking him if there's some sort of agreement to do so, but I'm also not going to support it. ] <sup>]</sup> 17:39, 15 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::I don't think anyone is talking about unblocking him, rather shortening the block if he apologizes. If not, then it should be left. ] | ] 17:48, 15 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::How long, exactly? ] <sup>]</sup> 18:35, 15 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I think one month is enough to make him rethink his conduct and apologise. If behavioural problems persist, the block should be extended to indefinite. Let's see what others think. --<font color="FC4339">]</font> <sup><font color="C98726">]</font></sup> 18:52, 15 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I'm not really that happy with shortening the block at all, but if that's what everybody wants, then I want an apology first. Somebody's going to have to unprotect his user talk page if that's what's happening. ] <sup>]</sup> 18:55, 15 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::(edit conflict)The user posted "''I'll fucking kill you''", an indef block is warrented, easily, without hesitation. In my opinion. ]<small> <sup>(Need help? ])</sup></small> 17:40, 15 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Your opinion may be flawed. I interacted with Tasc when he edited Russian wikipedia and saw no incivility from him there. I did not follow his edits in English wikipedia closely, but saw him repeatedly removing vandalism from ] and other pages. I suppose, if he apologises for his angry outburst, he should be given a chance to reform. --<font color="FC4339">]</font> <sup><font color="C98726">]</font></sup> 17:44, 15 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::: certainly warrants an indef block.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 23:25, 15 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I agree with Piotrus on that one; telling an admin to fuck off, and that if he communicates again with an another "fuck you" with death threats, I do not think he should be here any longer on WP. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 23:28, 15 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Gotta agree with Piotrus and Zscout on this one. Death threats bad. The block should be indefinite. ]|] 00:40, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| In regards to WP:NPOV, there is a POV push, despite the multiple corrections both I and @CountHacker have issued. We notified the user that the same source they are using from is generally considered historically unreliable because it is a collection of folklore and legends (the source, while a valuable insight into Korean folklore, claims that the founder of the Korean kingdom of Silla was born from a literal Golden Egg, so cannot be taken to be factual because humans cannot be born from Golden Eggs). | |||
| While agreeing that death threats are bad, I don't see why the fact that it was an admin is relevant. ] 06:06, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *Endorse block. Good call ]. I'd unprotect the talk page though, and agree with J Di shortening the block if an apology is granted. -- ] 07:07, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Despite trying to talk to them, they are just ignoring my and CountHackers actual points, and we even had more discussion but they just made their fifth revert. | |||
| Tasc already had three civility warnings on his talk page (I did not count inside the archives) when he began the exchange at ] that earned him his fourth. This is also not counting the civility warning by J Di at 19:03, 12 December 2006 (UTC) on the template talk page. So the civility warning that Tasc flamed in response to was the second one regarding this particular situation. The whole incident began out of Tasc's decision to revert war instead of seek consensus, behavior for which Tasc had been blocked at least five times previously (plus one earlier civility block). In light of the earlier civility block and two directly related civility warnings, after demonstrated disregard for consensus, I do not think that the week-long block was excessive. Upon viewing the block log and noting that so many previous shorter blocks had failed to get the point across, a week sounds like a very reasonable next step. I also don't think that apology for a death threat should reduce the block. If indefinite blocks are given for ''anything'', what is more serious than a death threat? — ] ] — 19:42, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I forgot that I need to point out that I am the one who Tasc origninally began incivility toward on the template talk page, in case this constitutes a conflict of interest. — ] ] — 19:45, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::So many previous shorter blocks? I have no personal interest in this case, I don't know Tasc and had never heard the name before reading this thread. But I think it worth pointing out that before the incident described here, Tasc's bloc log consisted in tutti, since March 2006, of three 3RR blocks plus one 24-hour block for edit warring, plus one--count 'em--''one'' 48-hour block for "incivility, removing tags". This, which was also his latest previous block, was logged in May 2006. Tasc has been blocked for incivility once since joining Misplaced Pages. His block log has been clean from May to December. ] | ] 00:46, 17 December 2006 (UTC). | |||
| :This report belongs at ]. ] <sup><small>]</small></sup> 05:39, 9 January 2025 (UTC) {{nacmt}} | |||
| ===Objection=== | |||
| :Who posted this complaint, they didn't leave a signature which, to me, shows a lack of experience. They also didn't leave any diffs so it's impossible to judge if there were indeed reverts. And as HeartGlow states, this is more suitable for ANEW which focuses on edit-warring. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 08:05, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Wait a second, I don't like to see . Tasc is being very rude and angry, yes, I don't like that, OK, but please focus on the timestamps here: | |||
| ::Unclear if genuine question or rhetorical, but in case it's the former, it seems to be ]. (They have over 1000 edits and have been editing since 2022, but it appears they may be used to using the Reply tool, which might explain why they didn't think to <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> since replying in that manner does that automatically? I think? <small>...Not trying to excuse it so much as I'm trying to understand it.</small>) - ] (]) 08:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| <br>18:10, JDil: Remain ]. You won't be warned again. | |||
| :::Sorry about that, I was a bit sleep deprived when I made, I'll go to WP:ANEW. | |||
| <br>18:14, Tasc: Find yourself a better job, than putting those terrible colours on my talk page. | |||
| :::And yea im way too used to the reply tool, i think i make these posts like once perhaps every few months so i got a bit rusty on this. Thanks! ] (]) 13:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| <br>18:15, JDil: You've been blocked for a week. | |||
| {{Abot}} | |||
| <br>18:17, Tasc: Go fuck yourself, idiot. | |||
| <br>18:19, JDil: Your block has been extended to two weeks. | |||
| <br>18:22 Tasc: What part of "Fuck off" don't you understand? (This is the one with the edit sum "one more signature on my talk page and I'll fucking kill you") | |||
| <br>18:23, JDil: You have been indefinitely blocked for making threats. | |||
| == Subtle vandalism by 8.40.247.4 == | |||
| *Etcetera. From civility warning to indefinite block in 13 minutes. I have to feel sorry for the guy without the power in this exchange. That's not to accuse JDil of deliberate baiting--I'm sure he was simply angry himself, too--but those admin responses are just much too quick. I would ask any admin issuing warnings to not do it with a machine gun, but give the user a real chance to cool down between bursts--to make pauses. This escalates much too fast. | |||
| {{atop|1=Excellent report results in a two-year block. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:57, 9 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| *Secondly, no, I don't agree that "I'll fucking kill you" is a death threat. OK, "I'll kill you" is a death threat, but with "fucking" in there, it's not, it's just an expression of anger. It's a ''technical''death threat, but hands up, anybody who's actually scared by it. Heck, I scare real easy, and even I'm not frightened. | |||
| * {{Userlinks|8.40.247.4}} | |||
| *Thirdly, I don't like to see an indefinitely blocked user with a fully protected talkpage. That means a full gag. Tasc has not specified a valid e-mail address, and now that he's blocked, it's too late, he has no way of doing it; in other words he has no means of e-mailing JDil or anybody else to argue, or to apologize. The page has remained protected for a day and a half; if the user is ever going to cool down, he probably has; I appeal to JDil to unprotect and invite himto apologize for his angry outbursts. ] | ] 10:16, 16 December 2006 (UTC). | |||
| :Bish, since you asked me to comment, here goes: I disagree with you about there being an appreciable difference between saying "I'll kill you" and "I'll fuckin kill you." It's possible this explanation may be applicable here, but it nonetheless sounds equally threatening to me. ] 10:57, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I want point out that the 18:10 civility warning was not the first one in this incident, it was the first one on tasc's talk page. See my comments above "Objections" for the details. And consider that "I'll kill you, motherfucker" is also a common expression of anger, but the intent of the statement still rings clear. Whether the expletive is inserted at the end or in the middle of the sentence is merely a linguistic curiosity. — ] ] — 19:53, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I agree that this escalated very quickly, and the block for a week because Tasc said "Find yourself a better job, than putting those terrible colours on my talk page," was perhaps provocative. I would support a short block but not an indefinite one, unless Tasc has been a general nuisance and was heading toward an indefblock for other reasons. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 10:41, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Since early 2020, ] has consistently and ] made edits that: | |||
| ::Arguably, Tasc has been "a general nuisance and was heading toward an indefblock for other reasons." ] reads: | |||
| ::<blockquote><tt>3.1) Any user, '''particularly Tasc''', who engages in edit warring with respect to ] may be banned from the article for an appropriate period. All bans are to be logged at ]. Pass 5-0 at 03:01, 28 September 2006 (UTC) <sup>(bold is my emphasis)</sup></blockquote></tt> | |||
| ::] 10:47, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| * minimize achievements and contributions of black people in American society | |||
| :::The Israel-Lebanon conflict is a different matter, I daresay. While death threats are bad and certainly merit an indef block, I believe that blocking one's opponent for a week for "Find yourself a better job, than putting those terrible colours on my talk page" was a sort of baiting and did not conform to our blocking policy. When you are young and feel powerless in a dispute, you tend to use very strong language. I advise to leave the indef block in force but to unprotect the talk page. Then we'll be able to see whether Tasc regrets his unacceptable behaviour. --<font color="FC4339">]</font> <sup><font color="C98726">]</font></sup> 17:31, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| * obscure or soften wording about right-wing and far-right leanings of conservative figures | |||
| ::::I didn't block tasc for that comment alone, and I wouldn't block anybody over something so trivial unless they'd already been uncivil towards other people. The comment he left was uncivil, and he had already been warned for his incivility on other pages. Do we not block for incivility anymore? ] <sup>]</sup> 17:54, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| * promote fringe, racist, or pseudo-scientific theories | |||
| ::::::Yes we do, but we also give people a chance to apologize and we don't jump to indef so quickly either. I'm unprotecting the page for the moment. We'll see what he does. ] | ] 18:51, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| The IP generally attempts to disguise the edits by lying about changes made in the edit summary. Here is a list of problem edits in chronological order: | |||
| ===Talk page unprotected=== | |||
| {| class="wikitable mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" | |||
| Tasc's response, from ]: | |||
| ! width="100" | Date | |||
| :I can communicate in civil manner, when I'm addressed politely. But I refuse to communicate normally in response to: | |||
| ! width="225" | Page | |||
| :*unjustified warnings | |||
| ! Issue | |||
| :*vandalising of my talk page | |||
| |- | |||
| :*repetitive use of terrible, highly unpleasant colours on my talk page after being told not to do so. | |||
| | Mar 4, 2020 | |||
| :I assume that quietly and indefinitely banning an active editor with almost 8 thousands edits for ''threats'' could do only inexperienced admin and failure to report my case only supports opinion that user wasn't sure about his actions. I reckon that for the majority of editors it can be clear (well, may be after reviewing all diffs of our ''discussion'') that it wasn't a threat, but rather a figure of speech. --Tasc 08:58, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| | '''McComb, Mississippi''' (]) | |||
| I copied that verbatim. — ] ] — 15:51, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| | | |||
| :So, he believes that he shouldn't have been warned for incivility, someone was vandalizing his talk page (when?), and he finds J Di's signature to be aesthetically unsound, therefore he was justified to "refuse to communicate normally in response". — ] ] — 15:56, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| * Removal of section about black people gaining the right to vote with the Voting Rights Act. | |||
| ::It is his talk page. If he wants to blank it or format it, he is allowed. ] | ] 18:39, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| |- | |||
| :::I don't believe I've suggested anything to the contrary. — ] ] — 19:17, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| | May 31, 2020 | |||
| | '''John Derbyshire''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Removes phrase describing ], a white nationalist organization, as white nationalist. Summary: "{{!xt|Fixed a typo}}". | |||
| |- | |||
| | Jul 21, 2020 | |||
| | '''Richard Hayne''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * "{{!xt|Reorganised wording}}" means removing criticism. | |||
| * "{{!xt|made favourable LGBT commentary more vivid}}" (what?) replaces the subject's stance on homosexuality with a vague and unsourced statement about Urban Outfitters and the Hayne family. | |||
| |- | |||
| | Jul 28, 2020 | |||
| | '''Louie Gohmert''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Softens "opposes LGBT rights" to "generally opposes LGBT rights legislation". Removes the words "defamatory" from section on Gohmert's false allegations. Removes whole section on Gohmert's opposition to making lynching a hate crime. | |||
| * Summary: "{{!xt|Grammatical issues.}}" | |||
| |- | |||
| | Sep 24, 2020 | |||
| | '''Back-to-Africa movement''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Omits the context of Christians accepting slavery when the slaves were Muslim to make it sound like religious Americans had always been morally opposed | |||
| |- | |||
| | Jan 14, 2021 | |||
| | '''Virginia Dare''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Removes description of VDARE as a group associated with white supremacy and white nationalism. | |||
| |- | |||
| | Apr 28, 2021 | |||
| | '''Bret Stephens''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Hides his climate change denial, so the sentence now basically reads "Bret Stephens has an opinion on climate change". Uses summary "{{!xt|Removed redundancy}}" (it wasn't redundant). | |||
| |- | |||
| | June 25, 2021 | |||
| | '''John Gabriel Stedman''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Removes sentence on pro-slavery leanings (admittedly unsourced) and sexual exploitation of one of his slaves (sourced). Summary: "{{!xt|Minor grammatical / spelling errors revised.}}" | |||
| |- | |||
| | Oct 7, 2021 | |||
| | '''Appalachian music''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Replaces the "various European and African influences" in the introduction with a phrase implying the music's origins were European, and that African-American influence only came later, which is untrue. | |||
| * Rewords " call and response format ... was ''adopted'' by colonial America" to say " ... was ''also common'' in colonial America". | |||
| * Removes entire paragraph about African-Americans introducing the banjo to white Southerners. Further down, changes "African banjo" to just "banjo". | |||
| * Summaries: "{{!xt|Added links to traditional folk music wikis}}" and "{{!xt|Verbiage clean-up}}". | |||
| |- | |||
| | Nov 27, 2021 | |||
| | '''Steve Sailer''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Removes all mention of Sailer, backed by sources, as holding racist, white supremacist, and anti-semitic views in the introduction. | |||
| * Removes description of Sailer's human biodiversity theory as pseudoscientific and racist. | |||
| * Summary is "{{!xt|Added a link to human biodiversity}}" – true, but leaves out the 6,000 deleted bytes. Makes the same edit two more times, but is reverted each time. | |||
| |- | |||
| | Jan 26, 2022 | |||
| | '''Mongoloid''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Removes phrase calling it a disproven theory. Replaces sentence on racist origins in Western scholars with mention of Eastern scholars also promoting the theory (unsourced). Adds a phrase saying that actually, it's up for debate. | |||
| |- | |||
| | Jul 6, 2022 | |||
| | '''Indian Mills, New Jersey''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Deletes phrase about white colonists displacing Native American families. Summary: "{{!xt|Removed a dead link}}". | |||
| |- | |||
| | Feb 20, 2023 | |||
| | '''Myth of meritocracy''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Changes sentence on institutional racism to describe it as "theoretical institutional racism". | |||
| |- | |||
| | Mar 26, 2023 | |||
| | '''Millford Plantation''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Hides the plantation's origins in slavery by renaming description from "forced-labor farm" to "farmstead". Summary: "{{!xt|Added link to slavery in the USA}}". | |||
| |- | |||
| | Jun 17, 2023 | |||
| | '''John Birch Society''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Removes mention of the society being right-wing, far-right, and radical right in introduction. | |||
| * Further down, removes description as being ultraconservative and extremist, and Southern Poverty Law Center's classification as antigovernment. | |||
| * Summary: "{{!xt|Removed faulty and vague links.}}" | |||
| |- | |||
| | Jan 9, 2025 | |||
| | '''Robert Gould Shaw''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Removes sentence on the battle inspiring African-Americans to join the Union Army during the Civil War. Summary: "{{!xt|Grammatical clean-up}}". | |||
| |- | |||
| | Jan 9, 2025 | |||
| | '''Virginia Dare''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Edits the page again four years later, this time using VDARE's closing as an excuse to remove all mention of it. Claims it is "{{!xt|no longer relevant}}", which is a crazy argument. | |||
| |} | |||
| The IP doesn't make enough edits at a time for vandalism warnings to rise to level 4, and thus has never been blocked (which is why I'm reporting this here and not at ]). These groups of edits are also spaced out over months, so a different user warns the IP each time (eight times so far!). The user, unfamiliar with the IP's editing history, treats the old warnings as "expired" and simply issues another level 1 or 2 warning. | |||
| I've asked ] to join the discussion here. — ] ] — 21:44, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Who is that IP and why do we care? If its Tasc I hope you aren't suggesting he evade his block with an IP sock. ] | ] 21:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I believe it is Tasc and that he has already evaded his block. — ] ] — 22:05, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Well then I suggest you go visit RFCU rather than make disingenuous suggestions you know are against policy. ] | ] 22:44, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'd rather suggested to read ] carefully. below nutshell. I can confirm that User:tasc is using this ip. --] 22:58, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Or should ''you'' be the one doing so? ]. While I'm pleased that your talk page was unprotected, I do not condone your use of the IP to circumvent the block and can no longer support a full unblock. – ]] 12:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::''Still, fully support indef block.'' just few lines above. was that supposed to mean that you did support unblock? very confusing. | |||
| ::::::Let me also add more citation: ''considered uncool '''unless you have a good reason''' '' – can assure you that I do have a very good reason. ''multiple usernames are really only a problem if they are used as a method of troublemaking of some sort'' so? this ip is troublemaking? ''If someone uses multiple accounts, it is recommended that he or she provide links between the accounts, so it is easy to determine that they are shared by one individual.'' Didn't I do so? If someone wants to block an ip - go ahead. just check contribution and point out what this anonymous editor did wrong. --] 17:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Well something has ensued and Tasc has claimed he wasn't making a death threat. I recommend the community evaluate his responses. ] | ] 21:46, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::If he makes a formal apology to the person he attacked, I'd suggest giving him a one week block. ]<small> (]) (]) (])</small> 02:55, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I believe this IP should be banned for a while. Unfortunately, there are probably many more like this one that haven't been caught yet. --] (]) 09:29, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === Proposing a formal community ban on Tasc === | |||
| :I spot checked these and yeah this is bad. Using false and misleading edit summaries to remove in most cases sourced descriptions to slant articles. <small style="background:#ccc;border:#000 1px solid;padding:0 3px 1px 4px;white-space:nowrap;">] | ]</small> 12:42, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Given this user's unrepentance, and repeated block evasion with that IP address used above, I cannot imagine this user is really here to work in the wiki spirit co-operatively to introduce good content. As Tasc still refuses to apologise, and in fact seems to be continuing to be incivil, I hereby ask for comments about a possible formal community ban on this user. – ]] 08:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Jesus Christ. Blocked for two years, since it looks like the IP is stable. ] ] 15:35, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thank you! ] (]) 19:08, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I think this discussion is a good example of providing all the infomation needed to the admins to make the decision. If only everyone who complained here did the same. ] (]) 19:16, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Egl7, anti-Armenian behaviour == | |||
| * I am formally '''oppose''' to the proposed indefinite ban. We need more than a single incivility fit to permablock a productive editor with the 8K edits. Give him 2 weeks block doubled if avoiding ] 08:31, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=Egl7 indef'd for being here to argue instead of building an encyclopedia. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| {{userlinks|Egl7}} | |||
| Egl7 clearly has bone to pick with Armenia, including dancing on the fine line of ], not to mention severe ] issues. As a Russian admin admit perfectly put it when they indeffed Egl7; | |||
| =={{User|Comaze}}== | |||
| #Egl7 never tries to take responsibility for their actions, instead being upset and obsessing over that I didn't revert a random IP that added "Armenian" under "common languages" in an infobox almost two years ago , mentioning that 7 (!) times | |||
| Hello. I am posting this in order to solve the problem of overload of edits by uncooperative editors on the NLP article. I believe a helpful warning to stop editors making ridiculous amounts of edits in a day will help. And if it is deemed that meatpuppets or sockpuppets are an issue, then take the appropriate action. The NLP article seems to have been under attack from either sockpuppets or meatpuppets of user Comaze. User Comaze runs a company (Comaze.com) in Australia promoting strategic ties with NLP companies as is in evidence on his userpage . The activities involve pushing for the same POV (deletion of relevant views on the talkpage using the same language ). They have also been removing relevant scientific views from the article on a regular basis. This also involves removing criticisms from the opening thus creating an unrepresentative opening . The strategy seems to be one of confusion and they have made a vast amount of undiscussed edits over the past few days. They also seem to be resisting efforts to calm down in a quite uncivil way . Comaze seems to be using the anonymous editors: 210.50.221.248 and 58.178.102.143 as meatpuppets or sockpuppets which both seem to be Australian IPs according to an IP check, or are using the same editing pattern as Comaze . They seem to be only editing on the NLP article and have arrived only recently to support Comazes promotional pov. The situation makes it impossible to edit constructively on the article and indeed the evidence shows Comaze and related suspected sockpuppets/meatpuppets to be highly uncooperative. The incivility and uncooperative editing seems to have pushed an editor away already and I am pretty much sick of it also. A well placed warning may well prove to be a good solution but its all up to you. Thanks. ] 04:55, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| #According to Egl7, having three things (out of 25) about Armenia on my userpage - being part of the ], being interested in the history of ], and opposing the denial of the Armenian genocide, means I support "Armenia's actions" , whatever that means. They never explained it despite being asked to, which leads me to the next thing. | |||
| #Here is this incredibly bizarre rant by Egl7 for me having stuff about Armenia on my userpage and not Azerbaijan, accusing me of anti-Azerbaijani sentiment and whatnot; | |||
| #Egl7 does not understand when someone is not interested in engaging in ] whataboutism, instead resorting to ], first on my talk page , then an article talk page , then their own talk page . This random question about the ] appeared after I asked them if they denied the Armenian Genocide since they considered me having a userpage about it part of "supporting Armenia's actions". According to this well sourced Wiki section , the term "genocide" is a "fabrication" for the Khojaly massacre, which is "used to counter the narrative of the Armenian genocide." | |||
| #Dancing on the fine line of ], if not denying it | |||
| #Despite being blocked on the Russian Misplaced Pages for it, their first action here was trying the very same thing they were indeffed for ; changing "Nakhichevan" (Armenian spelling) to "Nakhichivan" (Azerbaijani spelling) | |||
| #I truly tried to have ] despite their disruptive conduct and previous block, but this user is simply ]. There also seems to be severe ] at hand, as they struggle understanding a lot of what I say, including even reading ], which I had to ask them to read 5 (!) times before I gave up. As seen in our long discussion , they also to struggle understand basic sentences/words, such as the difference between "official" and "common". | |||
| I'm not going to respond to Egl7 here unless an admin wants me to. --] (]) 13:31, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :In reply, compare the article with a version from few weeks ago I think you'll find the current one is of much higher standard. As AB states I have collaborated with the other editors including {{User|210.50.221.248}}, {{User|58.178.102.143}} over the last few weeks. I think the page is improving. I believe these editors arrived affter the AN/I, checkuser and request for page protection that I requested on {{vandal|AlanBarnet}}. In response to the allegation that I have sockpuppets. This is unfounded. While the IP locator shows those IPs are located in Australia. I have no idea who they are specifically. I was surprised how well we work together though. When we had disagreement we would find a comprimise and move on. We have worked together to check the current document. Fix all the references which were broken, provide links so we could check facts. AlanBarnet claims that I have a NLP promotion business. While I have been involved in a the NLP Research Project (Australia, 2006) and have trained in NLP. My business is primarily in freelance web design and programming. I am also a student studying cogntive science. I really do not enjoy the adversarial that AlanBarnet has taken. It makes wikipedia less enjoyable and scares off legitimate professionals and academics. --] 07:35, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| === HistoryofIran, anti-Azerbaijani behaviour === | |||
| ::More information; Comaze is requesting collaboration with allegedly banned sockpuppet Vanilla Flavius: who I suspect also comes from Australia. This in addition to the overdose of edits (that involve compromising the integrity of the article) over the past few days is going to make reasonable discussion or editing impossible. ] 08:12, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| ] | |||
| @] clearly has bone to pick with Azerbaijan, including ] my ] work which includes correction of arrangement of the "Today is part of" infobox following the country, in which, at present, the largest part of the territory of the Nakhchivan Khanate is located. @] is reverting back changes, saying that my https://en.m.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Nakhichevan_Khanate&diff=prev&oldid=1268162595 edit is not an improvement without any real reason and without offering any argument. Also they are stating that there is a restriction according to ], while ignoring edits of other users. I asked them many times to open a discussion so both sides could offer different proposals which in turn would lead to a consensus. In response all my requests were ignored. Also they have been accusing me of having conflicts with other users and countries while I have never noted or mentioned any and they have been impolite to me all the time, while i have never been impolite or rude to them. I want to say that I am blocked on ru.wikipedia, again, because of no real reason(They are vandalizing and projecting their actions onto me) and now i'm even worried that en.wikipedia will do the same to me. | |||
| :::I did nothing of the sort. I that editor to email me to to make suggestions on how to make the article more critical (as in objective/wikipedian). While this editor was banned for incivility (including for defamatory remarks directed on me and for personal attacking the mentors). He did make some well-research critical contributions to the article in the past. I really don't think the collaboration of the article over the last few weeks has "involve compromising the integrity of the article". As I said it has improved and has sparked additional research. I'm trying to extend good faith here. --] 09:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::: I am user 58 and 210, an independent editor to Comaze. There is no checkuser evidence nor edit-style evidence to assert otherwise. I've been editing at wikipedia since early 2005. I had a user account but got sick of wikistalking. {{Vandal|User:AlanBarnet}} came straight to the NLP article when he joined wikipedia and began pasting edits from banned users back into the article; edits that were originally both beligerant and known to be fraudulent . He claims he just coincidentally grabs these from the history tab and often cites his opinion as fact (and hence "neutral"), and when he gets angry his edits are phrased in the superlative degree, as can be witnessed above. His edits are remarkably similar to the banned editor {{Vandal|User:HeadleyDown}}, and related sockpuppets in that he removes tags without discussion and engineers politics on talk pages in the same way as HeadleyDown ]. Recently, other banned editors ({{Vandal|64.46.47.242}}) have turned up at the article . It is quite plausible to surmise that AlanBarnet is somehow connected with them. HeadleyDown and his 20 user sockuppet farm has been known to orchestrate complex sockpuppet scenarios. I feel it is worth investigating users involved in this incident so we can get to the bottom of the growing problem. ] 09:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| They are also dancing on the fine line of denying ], if not denying it. | |||
| :::::58 and all. I arrived using the IP 88.106.13.232 . I promptly got myself an account so that I could cooperate with other editors on verifying the sources on the NLP article. I found no cooperation at all. Just resistance to direct quotes and Comaze and other IP numbers adding lots of argument to promote NLP or to negate science views. ] 04:19, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Thank You. ] (]) 15:03, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Dear AB. Please read ] and ]. ] 04:30, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :*'''Boomerang''' this is a clearly retaliatory filing. I think Egl7 is ]. ] (]) 15:05, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Hello this is Fainites, the only editor currently on the blighted NLP page not yet accused of sockpuppetry although probably now about to be accused of smugness. 1)There is problem with substantial undiscussed edits being put in over a short space of time because it upsets other editors. However, this partly arises because half the editors are on the other side of the world to the other half so everybody is on different timescales. However, Comaze has always been amenable to discussion, consensus and changes to edits as far as I can see and alot of the edits on that occasion filled in stubs giving everybody something to work on. 2) There is a problem with bad temper and assumptions of bad faith leading to ill thought out reversions to much older versions resulting in alot of hard work on sources and verification being removed. One recent example of both these problems together was the removal by Comaze of the second half of the Research Reviews section at 12.09 on 13.12.06 to the NLP Science article and the subsequent reversion to a much older form by AlanBarnet losing agreed edits and leaving the whole section a mess of half sentances, non sequiteurs and duplications. However, on a positive note, AlanBarnet agreed to put back the more recent edited version and when I sorted out the duplications and whatnots, the removal of the research has not been repeated. So there is hope. 3)Everybody appears to agree that sources need to to be verified. This involves alot of work as there are still past inaccuracies in references and POV statements hanging around in the article. However, the bad temper and accusations and large undiscussed edits not only slow work down but have just frightened off a valuable new editor who was a science researcher and very adept at hunting down and verifying scientific sources and quotes. 4)I think in the context of this article it is unwise for AlanBarnet to put in old negative views from old disputed versions from banned editors, with references, stating it has all been checked and verified but not providing evidence of what the source states at the time. It was inevitable that this would lead to accusations of sockpuppetry, whether they are justified or not. It would be better to assess the source afresh and agree an addition based on that with other editors. 5) alot of good collaborative work has gone on recently. Lets try and keep it that way. | |||
| :*'''Boomerang''' obvious retaliatory filling. ] (]) 15:07, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ] 14:29, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :As a non-EC editor, you should not be discussing Armenia/Azerbaijan issues at all except for making specific, constructive edit requests on the relevant talk pages. Once you received notice about the restriction, none of your related edits were in good faith, and all may be reverted without being considered edit warring. And quite frankly, the diffs that HistoryofIran has presented about your behavior don't look great. Your behavior on Russian Misplaced Pages doesn't affect your rights on English Misplaced Pages, but since you brought it up, I have to agree that you were there and now here more to fight than to edit a collaborative encyclopedia. ] (]) 15:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Having compared the version from December 1 with the current version, it seems to me very much as if Comaze and a few others are promoting rather than documenting the concept. The article becomes more promotional with each batch of edits, and the fundamental fact that NLP is essentially a cult with no scientific validity is more and more obscured. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 15:31, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::@] tell me, please, if there is a restriction why are everybody's edits are ignored except mine? You are not doing justice. ] (]) 15:39, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Because the restriction is specific to people who do not have extended confirmed status. ] (]) 15:41, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::i know that i'm being picky and can sound like a snitch, don't get me wrong, but, at least, i'm editing from an account while other users are editing from random IPs. How is it possible for a random IP to have an extended confirmed status? ] (]) 15:48, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::The person you created this obviously retaliatory report against is not an IP and does have EC status. The correct thing to do, the thing you should do if you want to enjoy any opportunity to continue participating in this project, is to immediately withdraw this complaint and commit to adherence with WP rules going forward. ] (]) 15:57, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I'm not taking about @] here. Look up the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Nakhichevan_Khanate&action=history. You can see that there are IPs, edits of which were ignored even if those edits have been done after the restriction had been set. This is what makes it unfair. By this logic my edits should've been ignored too. ] (]) 16:05, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::No IP has edited the page in question in nearly a year. You are complaining about a non-issue. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 16:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::The restriction has been set much earlier than a year. ] (]) 16:13, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Right, but at ANI we deal with {{tq|urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.}} The IP edits here are old news. Further, having now reviewed the page's last 5 years of history...out of 7 IP edits made, 5 were reverted almost immediately, 1 is arguably not covered by GS/AA (]), leaving exactly 1 edit that probably should have been reverted but wasn't (], which added "Armenian language"). You'll notice upon minimal investigation, however, that HistoryofIran's most embattled edits to this page were to ''remove'' "Armenian language" from the article in July of 2023; it's rather disingenuous to accuse them of all people of turning a blind eye here. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 16:15, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::This does not refute what I said above. ] (]) 16:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::There are actually 2 or more of them. I guess it's his duty to support both sides and remove or add information which is or is not necessary. ] (]) 16:29, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::I'm not sure what you're trying to say here at this point, but it also doesn't matter. HoI raised multiple valid concerns regarding the quality of your editing in an area that per our community guidelines, you should be intentionally avoiding. In response, you filed a retaliatory report and are now arguing technicalities that are tangential to the substance of HoI's initial report. The fact that you are arguing such trivial, irrelevant points is evidence against you in these proceedings. Your best course of action is to follow Simonm223's advice above. Failure to take that advice at this point is almost certain to end with you blocked. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 16:43, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Is there a rule, that a non-EC editor can't report an incident? ] (]) 16:33, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::It's not. However, someone making an inappropriate edit without being caught does not make your inappropriate edits into appropriate ones. There have been many successful bank robberies in history, but that doesn't mean I'm allowed to rob the bank next to my grocery store. You need to start focusing on how ''you'' conduct yourself, not on how others do, because right now, you appear to be headed towards a block. ] (]) 16:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I understand you. But i want to note that no matter how successful are the robberies, a lengthy criminal investigation will be launched. In addition, i want to say that i wasn't aware of those edits before I did mine. ] (]) 16:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::You did receive a warning on your talk page. Your conduct issues are not limited to violating ECP. You would be wise to heed the advice given in this thread from Simonm223 and Rosguill. The community does not have much patience for nationalist editing. ] (]) 16:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Is there a rule, that a non-EC editor can't report an incident? ] (]) 16:31, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::], {{tq| The restriction applies to all edits and pages related to the topic area, broadly construed}}. That includes complaints about other editors. Which you should know already, as you have been repeatedly warned about GS/AA and should have read that page carefully. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 16:39, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::So Is there a rule, that a non-EC editor can't report an incident, which in my case is "HistoryofIran, anti-Azerbaijani behaviour"? I am asking this because you said that "The correct thing to do, the thing you should do if you want to enjoy any opportunity to continue participating in this project, is to immediately withdraw this complaint and commit to adherence with WP rules going forward". And still, what you said in this comment does not refute what I said above. ] (]) 16:50, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Lists of everyone that has been sanctioned for GS/AA violations, or CT/AA violations more broadly, can be found at ] and further at ] under each year's Armenia-Azerbaijan (CT/A-A) section. Note that this only lists people who repeatedly ignored warnings and got blocked for it, simple reverts are not logged. I would encourage you to avoid getting your own username added to that list. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 15:44, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * All I see is Egl7 doubling down. I have already tried to tell them that there was nothing wrong with the IP edit they are fixiated on, and that it doesn’t excuse their unconstructice edits regardless. The fact that they were caught red handed in genocide denial and anti-Armenian conduct and then fruitlessly attempts to make me appear as the same with Azerbaijanis by copy-pasting part of my report and replace “Armenian” with “Azerbaijani” says a lot about this user. ] (]) 16:33, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:@] "There was nothing wrong" | |||
| *:As @] said 1 is arguably not covered by GS/AA (]), leaving exactly 1 edit that probably should have been reverted but wasn't (], which added "Armenian language"). | |||
| *:As I understand you were aware or now are aware of those edits done by those IPs what tells me that you admit that you ignored or are ignoring the edits that have been done after the restriction has been set and now you are still stating that there was or is nothing wrong with those IPs' edits. ] (]) 16:45, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::And we're done here. If you can read my comments here close enough to try to use them to make tendentious arguments at HoI, you should be able to understand that I already told you this is not even slightly appropriate. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 16:55, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I '''endorse''' this block. ] (]) 20:52, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == ]'s unreferenced edits == | |||
| The fact that something has no scientific validity does not make it a cult. That's a seperate question. If you have any verifiable evidence that NLP is a cult, please come and put it in, in the section that already contains reputable views to the same effect. As for promo, the section marked 'views of supporters in various disciplines' is empty and has been for a while, whilst the sections marked 'research', 'views of critics' and 'mental health' are full of nothing but criticism and views to the effect that there is no scientific basis to NLP. The article needs watching to ensure it is not taken over by either camp. ] 21:43, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I'm reporting {{Ping|Yemen meh}} for unreferenced edits. They've been told many times in the past to post references, and looking at their contributions page, they have done so many unreferenced edits in the last few days. ] (]) 09:47, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :: Two things. Firstly, NLP is fundamentally a seminar and consulting based personal development field (and it is definitely unclear whether it is also a cult, a psychocult, a good idea, a bad idea, a pseudoscience, a protoscience, a dangerous practice, therapeutic magic, or anything else). Secondly, ] of editors in either camp. Please treat editors as individuals. Have fun. ] 23:23, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Also, just few days ago - this happened. ] (]) 10:18, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Hello Guy. Thanks for your input. I've been editing on various articles I know something about or have access to sources such as journalism articles and various historical and geographical areas. I've been removing any argumentative phrasing (usually very little) from those articles and found no resistance at all. I spent a lot of time having to remove a massive amount of argumentative and overblown phrasing from the NLP article during the end of Nov and early Dec. I met nothing but resistance from Comaze and other numbers who scream bloody murder over the simple NPOV correction. They're still making a massive amount of edits per day. I don't see how anyone can conduct proper cooperative or rigorous verifications in such a way. I'm pretty much done with it. I have WPjournalism articles to edit with editors who are willing to collaborate and I know I'll get cooperation. I really hope things can be resolved on the NLP article. ] 04:28, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == IP hopper repeatedly adding unsourced and incorrect information to UK Rail articles == | |||
| I din't mean to imply that there were existing camps now on the site but there clearly have been in the past and may well be again. It sems to be a subject about which feelings run high.] 13:21, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Discussion moved from ] to avoid cluttering up that noticeboard with discussion. | |||
| Guy pointed me to the conflict of interest policy. I have read it and agree with it in principle. It does suggest that editors should dislose their interests where there may be a conflict. My interests are written on my talk page. And aim to base my edits on reliable, verifiable literature. The current editors all know that I am a student of NLP. I am also a student of cognitive science and computer science with an interest in psychology. That does not stop me from editing on the cognitive science or computer science articles. Nonetheless, I will hold myself to a higher standard for verifiability, and reliability of evidence. While being an student in the field is not required, it can help. I intend help write a balanced article by collaborating with the other editors who have different views to arrive at a balanced article. Keep in mind that I have gone through mediation, arbitration and mentorship and have learnt alot about wikipedia policy. I have read the conflict of interest article and will be more critical in my writing on those articles especially where there may be a conflict. --] 02:46, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| There is a user at the 27.55.xxx.xxx range that is repeatedly adding unsourced and invalid information to UK rail articles. The primary problem is the addition of a Maximum Speed to steam locomotives - steam locomotives in the UK did not really have a formal maximum speed, so this parameter is not used in these circumstances. As the user is hopping between IPs, it's proving nearly impossible to leave adequate warnings on talk pages, and as noted at AIV a rangeblock would affect a large number of innocent good faith users. Is there a way forward here, or is it a case of whack-a-mole? | |||
| == AJAX issues == | |||
| Diffs: | |||
| The donation header source code (<code>siteNoticeValue = ...</code>) seems to be breaking XML parsing of MediaWiki pages. All Javascript scripts using XMLHttpRequest fail. Is this affecting anyone else? <span class="user-sig user-Quarl"><i>—] <sup>(])</sup> <small>2006-12-16 11:44Z</small></i></span> | |||
| * {{user|27.55.93.62}} - {{diff2|1268535786}} | |||
| * {{user|27.55.83.83}} - {{diff2|1268296480}} & {{diff2|1268295870}} | |||
| * {{user|27.55.79.100}} - {{diff2| 1267871857}} | |||
| * {{user|27.55.70.101}} - {{diff2| 1267858727}}, {{diff2| 1267858319}} & {{diff2| 1267859313}} | |||
| * {{user|27.55.68.32}} - {{diff2| 1267728237}}. | |||
| Cheers, ] (]) 10:30, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ==Banned ]== | |||
| :Seems the only answer is to continue playing w-a-m until our Thai friend gets bored. ] (]) 11:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Whatever this User's "crime", from what I have read it has been blown totally out of all proportion. he appears to have been banned for some considerable time. Yet overall he has done sterling work on Misplaced Pages. It appears the controversy into which he pitched himself has gone. Is it not time to restore him to some sort of probation status? ] 12:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| : Banned for legal threats, reviewed here at the time. Sterling work is open to question, many of his edits (and especially comments) were highly biased and gave excessive weight to minority views, and he edited several articles on which he had a conflict of interest. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 15:13, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I've created an edit filter, ], to detect IPs in that range editing articles that contain {{tl|infobox locomotive}}. I've set it just to log for the moment; let's see what it catches. — ] (]) 12:31, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I have had a look at about 20 different pages regarding this. It would seem that if anyone had a very clear conflict of political interest here it was you. You have some sort of irritant with these people and are clearly opposed to them. I therefore think you should not be leading the comments on this. As you say, "at the time", but it apears from what I have read he was not personally in a position to threaten anyone, so presumably he was warning others. Surely that sort of thing should be taken in the spirit it is offered? In any case it was all a long time ago. He who is without sin throw the first stone. ] 16:28, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *No. The problem here was that Sussexman and a bunch of other anonymous IPs started making legal threats against myself and other users without any attempt to play by the Misplaced Pages policy. I recieved a solicitors letter and was labelled as 'scum' by a small core of this users assosciates, something which I did not enjoy. Like it or not the Sussexman situation appears to cause a great deal of malicious trolling, something which I (and I'm sure a good deal of others who were involved in this situation) can well do without--] 12:17, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Anyone care to check Chelsea Tory's IP to see if it matches Sussexman's? ]|] 05:34, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Interesting edit history. I see why you asked. -- '''<font color="navy">]</font>''' 15:44, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Persistent addition of unsourced content by 78.135.166.12 == | |||
| It won't. Is that a legitimate response to a legitimate request? It is childish. ] 10:30, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| {{userlinks|78.135.166.12}} - Keeps adding unsourced content to articles, continued after final warning & hasn't responded to warnings. Examples of addition of unsourced content: {{diff|Aardman Animations|prev|1267727350|1}}, {{diff|Aardman Animations|prev|1267781677|2}}, {{diff|Aardman Animations|prev|1268129045|3}}, {{diff|Miramax|prev|1268143287|4}} (addition of content not in pre-existing source, Pixar not mentioned), {{diff|Aardman Animations|prev|1268538057|5}}. ] (]) 16:30, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Checkuser says definately probable. <span style="font-family: Verdana">] ]</span> 10:46, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Is that sufficient to get Chelsea Tory blocked? ]|] 00:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :"Definitely probable"? That's a bit of an oxymoron, don't you think? -- ] ]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>] 17:42, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Persistent violation of established consensus on McLaren Driver Development Programme == | |||
| ::Not really, if you have much experience with checkuser. Checkuser is not a science, it is a matter of interpreting results, and in this case, the results are solidly within the range of "probable." There are cases where they are borderline probable, and cases where they are not. <span style="font-family: Verdana">] ]</span> 22:17, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=OP has ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 00:03, 11 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| ] is one of many motorsport-related articles that includes sections listing which racing championships drivers have won. Historically, these sections have only included season-long racing series championships, not simply the winners of notable races. However, ], ], and ] have persistently tried to list winning the ] as a "title." I have addressed this and explained the consensus multiple times, and repeatedly asked for them to return to the page to the consensus and start a discussion about changing that consensus, but all have refused and have insisted persisted with continually reverting the page. ] specifically has engaged in edit warring and personal attacks as well. All I am asking is that the page be reverted to consensus, without the one single race included as if it is a season-long championship, and then we can discuss why or why not to add it. All have refused. I don't think this ever needed to be escalated to the admins but literally everyone else involved has refused to have a simple discussion about this. I really don't understand their behavior. Personally I believe this change would significantly impact dozens of articles and would require larger discussions at the WikiProject level, but again, it does not seem like others are willing to have this discussion. ] (]) 17:36, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*'''Comment''': the relevant talk page discussion can be found . No "personal attacks" were exchanged. Instead, ] and I have tried to urge the user above to seek consensus peacefully instead of and ''imposing'' their views. The user cites an "informal consensus" but has been unable to its existence. | |||
| == Sneaky Vandalism == | |||
| :] (]) 17:59, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :{{ec}}{{u|Lazer-kitty}}, this looks like a content dispute. The steps for resolving such disputes are listed at ]. I think you would find it very difficult to pursue this dispute here, but first you would need ]s showing bad conduct by others, and your conduct would also be looked at. ] (]) 17:59, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{u|Phil Bridger}} I mean, scroll up. The guy literally just attacked me and accused me of making threats and trying to impose my views, both of which are false. It was absolutely just a content dispute until they started behaving that way. ] (]) 18:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{u|Lazer-kitty}}, your second comment at ] was {{tpq|First off, apologize immediately for your insults above. These are completely uncalled for.}} There were no insults and such a rapid escalation of aggression is inexplicable. Forced apologies are worthless. Then, you described this routine and mundane content dispute as "vandalism" even though you presented no evidence of deliberate intent to {{tpq|obstruct or defeat the project's purpose}}, which is required for a valid accusation of vandalism. It looks to me like you are being far too aggressive here, and so I recommend that you adopt a more collaborative attitude. ] (]) 18:06, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Yes, that comment was in response to {{tpq|I kindly urge you to cut down your condescending tone and edit warring, or external measures could be taken.}} You don't consider that insulting? I do. I was not being condescending, I sincerely tried my best to be polite, nor was I edit warring. Literally all I want to do is be collaborative and they all refuse. I have asked for collaboration numerous times! ] (]) 18:08, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::No, that's not an insult. You're talking down to other editors, which can feel condescending to them. I strongly urge you to dial it back and engage in creating a new, solid consensus around this topic. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 18:37, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Reading through the talk page is pretty bizarre - Lazer-kitty is insisting their opinion is consenus against 3 editors who disagree with them. I know nothing about motorsport but to me this is evidence that consensus is against LK, not with them as they claim. I think this earns a trout for opening this filing, the misunderstanding of the concept of consensus, and for battleground behaviour - but there's nothing here that needs admin attention. ] ] 18:30, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Thanks to everyone involved for bullying off me this platform. Never in my life did I expect that 20 years of editing would end with being gaslit by multiple admins and editors. Really appreciate your efforts in killing this encyclopedia. My only hope is that one day someone forks Misplaced Pages into a new encyclopedia with competent oversight, i.e. people who can see through obvious trolling and bad faith actions, and who don't rely on aggressive tone policing to make their judgements. ] (]) 19:22, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :{{nacc}} The filer appears to have ]. —] ( ] • ] ) 19:57, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :As multiple people have pointed out, you are seriously overreacting. Your behaviour is completely disproportionate to the content dispute you are involved in. You only have yourself to look at there. If this is how you react to people disagreeing with you, you are the one with a serious problem. ]]]1 20:18, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Engage01: ad hominem personal attacks and one against many == | |||
| Found this in the new page log just a second ago: | |||
| * ] - notice the O is not an "o" but a lower case greek omega with character code: %CE%BF. | |||
| {{User|Engage01}} has been arguing to include an incredibly lengthy quote in ]. Upon my removal of the quote and suggestion to bring it to the talk page, they've begun a large-scale argument that me and most other editors that disagree with the addition of the quote as lacking competence, not understanding quality, or one-word "wrong" replies. Consensus is clearly against them but instead of coming up with actual policy-based reasons for every other editor !voting in the poll they set up (all in favor of not having the quote) they've chose to accuse us of not understanding policy or not seeing that the individual in question is important in the matter enough to deserve a long quote. They haven't been around for long, and have gotten multiple warnings for personal attack-type language in the conversation. I've been asked by them to "remove myself from the conversation" and they suggested I was "learning while you edit" while not understanding ]. I don't have time to add any diffs (all the comments are still live) except for ], them blanking their talk page, and ] a few minutes later, where they keep their argument at "I can't understand how editors can misapply "undue weight."". This could be a severe case of ] with the blanking. I'm hoping whoever sees this can at least get them to cut out their personal attacks. Cheers. ] (]) 19:16, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| It was created by ]. Something to be on the look for if this is to become a new trend in page creation vandalism. ] 15:31, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I thought I removed the quote first, but it was removed again by Departure. Nevertheless this user has made personal attacks on my User talk page as well. I posted two warnings and on their talk page but Engage01 just very quickly. I wish to ] but this user started a new section on my talk page (linked above) to argue about "undue weight" which is something I don't recall mentioning at all in this situation. | |||
| :Deleted. ]<small> <sup>(Need help? ])</sup></small> 15:39, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I remember now. I from the body of the article to inside the citation but I had a feeling that it was only a gradual stage before it would be fully removed by ]. Thank you for bringing this to the ANI. ] (]) 19:26, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I've pblocked them for one week from the article and its talk page for disruptive editing, personal attacks, incivility, and bludgeoning. ] (]) 19:40, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::The method of engagement at that talk page is really poor. I've closed the section now that the editor has been p-blocked, no need to continue to sink time into it. ] (]) 20:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I know they're partially blocked from that page, but I went through their edit history and I found ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] different diffs of them adding the quote in question into the article (at least 7 of which were after it had been removed), and I think that constitutes edit warring. They never got notice for violating 3RR but they ''very clearly'' did. Maybe the block from the Palisades Fire should be extended or expanded? I've seen worse sanctions for less disruption. ] (]) 20:26, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ==Problems with Pipera== | |||
| :Another admin blocked this user for this, and the user disagrees claiming it was a good faith edit. I asked for his reasoning, but got little information. I decided not to handle the unblock request myself. ]<small> <sup>(Need help? ])</sup></small> 16:45, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=Pipera blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:55, 10 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| :Nevermind, the problem seems to be solved. ]<small> <sup>(Need help? ])</sup></small> 16:49, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *{{userlinks|Pipera}} | |||
| I've tried to avoid bringing this here, but I've reached the point where I cannot keep dealing with {{user|Pipera}}. They continue to add unsourced and unrelated information to articles, refuse to take on formatting advice, continue to assert that they know better than the reliable sources in articles, and continue to post walls of text on talk pages that do not help with collaborative editing.<p> | |||
| I've listed some illustrative diffs below along with explanations where needed. I've tried to be concise but it's difficult at times to explain the issues. There are more problems I've got documented, but I tried to not overwhelm this filing.<p> | |||
| I'm concerned that Pipera does not understand what wikipedia is for and what we do - their continual references to the fact that they are a descendant of the article subjects and that they know through their own research that historians or scholars are wrong, is a big problem and they have not taken explanations of what we do here (as opposed to a genealogical research site) on board. Their continual sourcing problems - removing sources, adding unsourced information, arguing that sites like WikiTree are reliable, arguing that they know better than the reliable sources, and, worst, the changing of sourced information to say something different than what the source actually says - all these are big red-flag issues. Explanations of how they have issues have been met with either no-engagement with the points raised or walls of text. I also have ] concerns as they seem unable to edit without formatting, grammar, and other issues.<p> | |||
| As for a solution, I'm open to suggestions. A topic ban from medieval biographies would probably solve the current problem, but I'm not sure that will not just move the problem elsewhere. If someone would volunteer to mentor Pipera, that might work, but I've exhausted my good faith already in the last month, and it would need to be someone with a lot of patience, and I'm not sure the CIR issues won't just show up somewhere else. | |||
| * ] at ] Pipera changes sourced information to have it say something that the source does not quite say, adds information that is unrelated to the subject of the article, along with grammar issues. I pointed out the problems with these edits on the ] which got a ] that repeated parts of the article and frankly, I'm not sure what they meant to convey with it. | |||
| * ] at ], Pipera removes sources from sourced information, adds unsourced information, and generally mucks up the text and formatting. After being reverted by an editor and re-adding their edits, they post ]. I documented the problems with their edits ], but they were never addressed. | |||
| * ] At ], Pipera adds a citation needed tag to an already cited sentence, one cited to the '']''. | |||
| * ] at ], Pipera changes Enguerrand's offspring from a daughter to a daughter and son, removing the sourced statement that Enguerrand had no male offspring, and changing his brother and successor Guy into a son instead. This is done while keeping the three sources that previously supported Guy as a brother, not a son. One of the attached sources is Musset p. 104, which can be accessed at the Internet Archive See talk page where a discussion about another source that supports Enguerrand as having no male offspring is dismissed as "There are a number of updated versions the work" but without substantiating such a claim. | |||
| * ] at ] Pipera copies an earlier section of the article into a new place without removing it at the older location so that now the article repeats the section starting "Katherine Keats-Rohan argues instead...". This series of edits also adds unsourced information and removes sourced information. I ] with the statement "remove repetition and restore sources to information" but was ] with the edit summary "Undid revision 1267745167 by Ealdgyth (talk) sorry this is my family tree and I know what was placed here is correct". There are further edits to this article ] and then a discussion on the talk page about what they ] actually turns out to be a charter. I ] on the talk page, and that got a flurry of replies on the ] just don't make any sense to me. Maybe they are upset that some historians might think Sibyl was illegitimate? They keep saying things like "They state Sybil of Falaise might have been yet another b######d." which took me a bit to realize that they were censoring "bastard". Note that the article still in places calls this charter a "will" and says that "In the charter of William de Falaise, he bequeaths everything to his wife Geva." However, Pipera at ] claims to translate the charter and their translation says nothing about William bequeathing everything to his wife - it's a standard gift-charter giving some property to a church, with his wife mentioned as also giving the property along with William. This raises serious issues about Pipera's ability to read and understand sources and use them appropriately. | |||
| * ] Pipera adds unsourced information as well as a long series of genealogical descents to an article about a 12th-century nobleman, much of the information is not really related to the subject of the article. | |||
| * ] at ] Pipera changes sourced information without updating the source, removing the "probably" from "probably was the son", and making it a categorical statement that Richard was the son of Robert de Courcy. | |||
| * ] at ] Pipera removes sources from information and adds unsourced information. I ] with an edit summary of "Restore sources to information, no need for this heading, and we do not need a list here" but was ] with the edit summary "with all due respect we have this everywhere in Misplaced Pages, further it adds clarity to the entry. In my opinion. Further, added the name of Williams wife Avice to the entry BTW she is the daughter of the Earl of Skipton her mother is Cecily de Rumily they are my 23rd Great Grandparents". I then attempted to discuss at the talk page ] but this has been ignored. | |||
| * 9/10 Jan 2025 at ] - I reply ] to a comment of theirs. Pipera ] with an edit summary of "Do not delete my tak page responses", but I did not delete any of their responses, I merely replied. Two edits later, they ] they had started, including the replies that I had made to them, pointing out problems, violating ]. | |||
| Pinging {{user|Eric}}, {{user|Celia Homeford}}, {{user|Ian Rose}}, {{user|Dudley Miles}}, {{user|Newm30}}, {{user|Andrew Lancaster}}, {{user|BusterD}}, and {{user|Paramandyr}} who have also dealt with this editor. ] (]) 20:47, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I've tried to avoid bringing this here, but I've reached the point where I cannot keep dealing with ] (] '''·''' ]). They continue to add unsourced and unrelated information to articles, refuse to take on formatting advice, continue to assert that they know better than the reliable sources in articles, and continue to post walls of text on talk pages that do not help with collaborative editing. | |||
| :I was in the middle of being puzzled by how this article could possibly exist, when ] redirected it and subsequently explained the greek letter thing. Should this deletion not be salted or the redirect recreated and protected? Unfortunately, this whole incident has a little bit of a ] aspect to it, so I kind of don't want to voice my worst fears about what this sort of thing could do. ] 17:54, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I've listed some illustrative diffs below along with explanations where needed. I've tried to be concise but it's difficult at times to explain the issues. There are more problems I've got documented, but I tried to not overwhelm this filing. | |||
| :I'm concerned that Pipera does not understand what wikipedia is for and what we do - their continual references to the fact that they are a descendant of the article subjects and that they know through their own research that historians or scholars are wrong, is a big problem and they have not taken explanations of what we do here (as opposed to a genealogical research site) on board. Their continual sourcing problems - removing sources, adding unsourced information, arguing that sites like WikiTree are reliable, arguing that they know better than the reliable sources, and, worst, the changing of sourced information to say something different than what the source actually says - all these are big red-flag issues. Explanations of how they have issues have been met with either no-engagement with the points raised or walls of text. I also have ] concerns as they seem unable to edit without formatting, grammar, and other issues. | |||
| :As for a solution, I'm open to suggestions. A topic ban from medieval biographies would probably solve the current problem, but I'm not sure that will not just move the problem elsewhere. If someone would volunteer to mentor Pipera, that might work, but I've exhausted my good faith already in the last month, and it would need to be someone with a lot of patience, and I'm not sure the CIR issues won't just show up somewhere else. | |||
| :* ] at ] Pipera changes sourced information to have it say something that the source does not quite say, adds information that is unrelated to the subject of the article, along with grammar issues. I pointed out the problems with these edits on the ] which got a ] that repeated parts of the article and frankly, I'm not sure what they meant to convey with it. | |||
| :That ha been reolved, | |||
| :* ] at ], Pipera removes sources from sourced information, adds unsourced information, and generally mucks up the text and formatting. After being reverted by an editor and re-adding their edits, they post ]. I documented the problems with their edits ], but they were never addressed. | |||
| :The page dealing with his children has yet to be resolved. | |||
| :* ] At ], Pipera adds a citation needed tag to an already cited sentence, one cited to the '']''. | |||
| :That has been resolved. | |||
| :* ] at ], Pipera changes Enguerrand's offspring from a daughter to a daughter and son, removing the sourced statement that Enguerrand had no male offspring, and changing his brother and successor Guy into a son instead. This is done while keeping the three sources that previously supported Guy as a brother, not a son. One of the attached sources is Musset p. 104, which can be accessed at the Internet Archive See talk page where a discussion about another source that supports Enguerrand as having no male offspring is dismissed as "There are a number of updated versions the work" but without substantiating such a claim. | |||
| :In regard to this matter see: ] which no one has replied to., | |||
| :* ] at ] Pipera copies an earlier section of the article into a new place without removing it at the older location so that now the article repeats the section starting "Katherine Keats-Rohan argues instead...". This series of edits also adds unsourced information and removes sourced information. I ] with the statement "remove repetition and restore sources to information" but was ] with the edit summary "Undid revision 1267745167 by Ealdgyth (talk) sorry this is my family tree and I know what was placed here is correct". There are further edits to this article ] and then a discussion on the talk page about what they ] actually turns out to be a charter. I ] on the talk page, and that got a flurry of replies on the ] just don't make any sense to me. Maybe they are upset that some historians might think Sibyl was illegitimate? They keep saying things like "They state Sybil of Falaise might have been yet another b######d." which took me a bit to realize that they were censoring "bastard". Note that the article still in places calls this charter a "will" and says that "In the charter of William de Falaise, he bequeaths everything to his wife Geva." However, Pipera at ] claims to translate the charter and their translation says nothing about William bequeathing everything to his wife - it's a standard gift-charter giving some property to a church, with his wife mentioned as also giving the property along with William. This raises serious issues about Pipera's ability to read and understand sources and use them appropriately. | |||
| :See: ]. And ]! | |||
| :* ] Pipera adds unsourced information as well as a long series of genealogical descents to an article about a 12th-century nobleman, much of the information is not really related to the subject of the article. | |||
| :* ] at ] Pipera changes sourced information without updating the source, removing the "probably" from "probably was the son", and making it a categorical statement that Richard was the son of Robert de Courcy. | |||
| :Richard was the son of Robert de Courcy, and his mother was named Herleva de Bernieres. His father was Balderic 'the Teuton' and an unnamed granddaughter of ] . He was one of nine children bound by this relationship. | |||
| :He actually is his son. | |||
| :* ] at ] Pipera removes sources from information and adds unsourced information. I ] with an edit summary of "Restore sources to information, no need for this heading, and we do not need a list here" but was ] with the edit summary "with all due respect we have this everywhere in Misplaced Pages, further it adds clarity to the entry. In my opinion. Further, added the name of Williams wife Avice to the entry BTW she is the daughter of the Earl of Skipton her mother is Cecily de Rumily they are my 23rd Great Grandparents". I then attempted to discuss at the talk page ] but this has been ignored. | |||
| : ] ] ] 5,529 bytes +76 ''Undid revision ] by ] (]) with all due respect we have this everywhere in Misplaced Pages, further it adds clarity to the entry. In my opinion. Further, added the name of Williams wife Avice to the entry BTW she is the daughter of the Earl of Skipton her mother is Cecily de Rumily they are my 23rd Great Grandparents.'' '']: ]'' | |||
| :* 9/10 Jan 2025 at ] - I reply ] to a comment of theirs. Pipera ] with an edit summary of "Do not delete my tak page responses", but I did not delete any of their responses, I merely replied. Two edits later, they ] they had started, including the replies that I had made to them, pointing out problems, violating ]. | |||
| :Proceedings by Somersetshire Archaeological and Natural History Society Publication date 1919 | |||
| :https://archive.org/details/proceedings65some/page/8/mode/1up?q=Sibyl<nowiki/>+ | |||
| :<nowiki>*</nowiki> Eyton, in his Domesday Studies, styles this " an old legend (we can call it no more) of the Welsh Marches We cannot imagine how Henry I. could have such a niece as this Sibil ; nor can we say how Sibil de Falaise was related to William de Falaise, or why she or her descendants should have succeeded to any of his estates." ] (]) 21:00, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support block''' <s>topic ban</s> possibly per nom. I've been watching the complete palaver that is ]—"]"!—with askance. Their talk page comments are ], and ] and they seem to delight in... misunderstanding. Repeatedly. If as Ealdgyth suggests, the TB proves insufficient, the this can be revisited, but in the meantime, it's worth a shot.{{pb}}I had an edit-confliuct posting this, due to Pipera posting above. And incidentally proving ''the actual point''. The reply is bizarre; they seem to have ] Ealdgyth's original post. They are completely incapable of communicating in a manner that is not disruptive. ]'']''] 21:10, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Changing my suggestion to a full block; their replies demonstrate they either don't understand what Misplaced Pages is for, and are unwilling to learn, or simply don't care. Either way, NOTHERE applies in spades. ]'']''] 21:53, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Talk:Henry I of England - Misplaced Pages https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Henry_I_of_England ] | |||
| :In regard to this matter, I was restoring an earlier version of the article. listing the children legitimate, illegitimate and mistress to the children section of the article. it was not my work it was the work of others that came here circa 2006 -7 that placed this here, and it was removed. | |||
| :I added: | |||
| :* ''Baldwin, Stewart (2002). . The American Society of Genealogists.'' | |||
| :I was told that this was an unreliable source when the work is on the American Society of Genealogists website, Baldwin is a writer of historic books. He is a valid source of information, further his work in the reference section shows some of the sources that are in the Misplaced Pages articles. | |||
| :I was told that WikiTree is a user generate source, Misplaced Pages is also a user generated source. | |||
| :Additionally, I was told that Alison Weir was not acceptable in the article. | |||
| :== Using these within a Misplaced Pages Article == | |||
| :] | |||
| :Broken up into: | |||
| :* ] | |||
| :* ] | |||
| :* ] | |||
| :There is no rule here stating that these cannot be used within any part of a Misplaced Pages entry. | |||
| :You also removed Alison Weir as a reference, explain to me why she was removed? ] (]) ] | |||
| :Regards ] (]) 21:17, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Finally, other genealogical sites like WikiTree have attempted to place the children of Henry I in the right place and manner, in other incidents globally people are now adding Henry I as the father of Sybil de Falaise based on the article here at Misplaced Pages. She is not the niece of Henry I whichever way this is stated, in relation to William Martin https://en.wikipedia.org/William_Martin,_1st_Baron_Martin#References this has been resolved, and yet on my talk page I went into great detail about the usage of the tag in two other Misplaced Pages articles. | |||
| :Also, I am academically qualified to read source materials like: | |||
| :: '''Robert of Torigni''' or '''Torigny''' (]: ''Robert de Torigni''; c. 1110–1186), also known as '''Robert of the Mont''' (]: ''Robertus de Monte''; ]: ''Robert de Monte''; also Robertus de Monte Sancti Michaelis, in reference to the abbey of Mont Saint-Michel), was a ] ], ], and ]. He is most remembered for his chronicles detailing English history of his era. | |||
| :: https://entities.oclc.org/worldcat/entity/E39PBJxhgfHcDqQdqcGCG7gh73.html and '''', and read their works and apply them to any historic context as I have in other genealogical sites as well as read Parish Registers in the 1500's and apply this to research. | |||
| :] (]) 21:31, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Please block this person now, any admin who sees this. I have lost count of the number of Misplaced Pages policies which they are intent on ignoring, and if swift action isn't taken this discission will be longer than the rest of this page put together. ] (]) 21:39, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I agree. ] (] - ] - ]) 21:46, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I agree. --] 21:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Because I came to Misplaced Pages to extend articles, add new information, rolled back and not one academic response. I have been given personal opinions of which I have taken on board. I have not gone into iny article with the intent to add incorrect information to the articles. I have been adding here since 2001, and decided to come into these articles to expand them. That is my intention to do so. In the case of ] I was adding to the Family and children section and added additional links I have not entered any other part of the article. | |||
| :::In the case of ] there is no way she can be ] nice as the records of his brothers and sisters state so. I have raised these concerns in the talk page, see Talk:Sibyl of Falaise - Misplaced Pages https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Sibyl_of_Falaise as I see it. ] (]) 21:56, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *They have been '''blocked'''. ]] 22:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I think since those characters are against the MOS, a bot could watch the newly created articles for such charactes and put them in a catagory for review. Then we can move the legit one's and delete the less than legit one's. This type of vandalism should not give a real advantage. ]<small> <sup>(Need help? ])</sup></small> 18:00, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Cheers, {{u|GiantSnowman}}. ]'']''] 22:46, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Sorry, I got here late. Thanks to Ealdgyth for bringing this issue here, and to all who participated. After an initial attempt at dealing with Pipera's disruptions and chaotic editing/communication pattern, I must admit I soon walked away. Thanks those with more patience than I for trying longer. ] <sup>]</sup> 22:48, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::That's a good idea. Any Unicode that shows up in article titles is worth watching, and if someone good with bot-fu wants to tackle the job, it would be most welcome. On the bright side, it's very difficult to link to these articles ''accidentally''. ](]) 18:05, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thanks to Ealdgyth for the thread. I participated sufficiently to see this was real problem, but didn't act decisively. ] (]) 22:49, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == An IP who gave me a fake 4im warning == | |||
| ::Ok, I can write that, is there an rss feed or irc channel that lists all newly created pages? I could write the bot in a day, then just need to get it approved. ]<small> <sup>(Need help? ])</sup></small> 18:09, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop | |||
| | result = Issues addressed. Signature can be handled on their Talk. No longer a matter for ANI ] ] 14:59, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| }} | |||
| There was a IP address (]) who | |||
| :::Yes, there is: see ]. —] <small>(])</small> 18:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| # Called me blind in an edit summary after i reverted his edit | |||
| :::Forgive me if I'm just advertising my own ignorance here, but aren't Unicode characters sometimes okay (random example: ])? ] 18:15, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| # trouted me and gave me a 4im warning | |||
| I think this is the appropriate place to take this report. | |||
| ::::Absolutely; that's why the bot would just dump them into a category for review by humans. ](]) 18:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Got it. Thanks. ] 18:40, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Sounds good, but wouldn't it make sense to have the bot flag only article names that contain Unicode characters that are ''visually similar'' to common characters? I'll wager a wild guess and say that the review category would otherwise be full of false positives, e.g. article names containing German ]s, French ]s etc. (or are these not Unicode characters?) ] 21:48, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Thanks, ] ] ] 22:37, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::All of the accented characters used in English, French, German, Spanish, and the Scandinavian languages are in the basic character set. When you go further afield, then you have to get into Unicode, but it's a very small fraction of the total number of new articles. Yes, the category will probably still have a bunch of false positives, but I don't think it will get ''that'' many hits in total. | |||
| :Well, a 4im warning was certainly an overreaction and the edit summary could have been nicer, but your revert was obviously wrong. The IP has since self-reverted the warning. No admin action is needed here, but you should read IP edits more carefully before reverting them, and consider changing your distasteful signature. ] (]) 22:45, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'd be thrilled if someone could write something to trap just the ]s, but that's harder. :D ](]) 22:40, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Distasteful? What do you mean? it is simply a videogame refrence to ]. | |||
| ::And i did admit fault for the bad edit (and for my unnecessarily silly first response). | |||
| ::Thanks, ] ] ] 22:50, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::However, @] I was gonna change it due to me changing my username soon. So, in the meantime, i will change it. ] ] ] 22:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::It would be great i you could remove all of the extraneous phrases and change it so that it is just your username and a link to your User talk page. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 00:05, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I fail to see the need to jump all over Tenebre over their signature. There are a number of other editors and admins who have similarly goofy signatures and jumping down one editor's throat seems petty. ] (]) 02:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Community block appeal by ] == | |||
| ::Actually, my first set of tests show way too many false positives when searching for Unicode characters. So the better thing to do would be to make a list of homoglyphs and use those. i have started with this one here: ]. ]<small> <sup>(Need help? ])</sup></small> 18:53, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop | |||
| | status = Decline | |||
| | result = It is clear based on the input here and at their Talk before the discussion was carried over, that no consensus to unblock is going to emerge at this time. It is recommended that Drbogdan take on the feedback provided before future unblocks are requested ] ] 15:05, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Um, in the meantime, I've salted the page. ]|] 05:43, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| }} | |||
| {{user links|Drbogdan}} | |||
| Note that MediaWiki already has a feature that disallows mixed-script usernames and names that may look too similar to existing one. It's still being developed, and is hardly perfect, but some of the code could probably be at least instructive to look at. —] <small>(])</small> 18:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| This user has asked for a review of their community block enacted as a result of a six months ago. Just FYI for context the original title of the section on their talk pages was ''"Request to restore editing per ] as suggested"'' and several users involved in the previous discussion were pinged, and a block review began there before I shut that down and informed them it needed to be done here, so there's going to be some volume of comments right away, in addition to the lengthy text of the request itself. ] ] 23:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| - MY (overdue perhaps) REPLIES Somewhat new to all of this (been busy in other wiki-areas over the years - see below), but seems it's been over 6 months since the start of my (start date = July 6, 2024) - perhaps ] may now apply I would think - and hopefully, ] and ] (direct and/or indirect) apply here as well of course. Thanks. ::<q class="inline-quote-talk ">::I closed this quickly a few minutes ago since the latest comments have been fairly plain personal attacks, rather than discussing the substance of the complaint and appropriate action. It took me a while to organize my thoughts and copyedit myself - there's a lot to unpack here.</q> Thank you for your comments and conclusions. As before, I've been very busy recently with mostly real-world activities (but also with some earlier online activities - ++ and others) . Sorry for my delay in not responding earlier of course. Hopefully, my presentation here is appropriate and entirely ok (I'm really new to this wiki-area). ::<q class="inline-quote-talk ">::Here we have a science expert mass-adding content based on low-quality popular science churnalism to our science articles, expecting that other editors will review it and determine whether to improve or remove it, and a complaint from the editors who have been cleaning up after them supposedly for many years. This discussion can be summed up with a quote from the ] essay: "A mess created in a sincere effort to help is still a mess that needs to be cleaned up." We excuse this behaviour from very new editors who don't yet understand that ] with ] and ]. The community expects an editor with 90,000 edits to understand what content should be in an article and what constitutes a reliable source, especially for an editor who is also a subject matter expert.</q> Mostly untrue claims. Certainly none intentional. As before, claims have been exaggerated (also noted by others and elsewhere) and/or (with no or few supporting diffs) (along with - ie, ) (). Such claims, perhaps to seem more credible than they really may be, seem to have been presented under cover of apparent ] of one sort or another. In addition, the importance of ], in some relevant instances, have been downplayed and/or dismissed outright. For one example of possible related contention, the very long-time (many years) ] article, originally a very enriched (helpful/useful) version (seemingly at least), and justified by ], is , but is currently (without discussion or ]) changed to a less helpful/useful ] instead. Seems like ] rules may overrule ]? Seems so at the moment in this instance. At least until there's a better resolution of the issue through further discussion and ] I would think. In any case, lessons learned here of course. ::<q class="inline-quote-talk ">::Drbogdan's replies to deserved criticism in this thread have been dismissive of the problem at best, if not signalling that they believe their academic credentials excuse them from needing to improve. The community has historically rejected this approach, and rejects it here. Since Drbogdan seems not to understand that they are making a mess and seems uninterested in learning how not to continue making messes, the community's consensus is that Drbogdan is '''blocked indefinitely'''.</q> Not true. Never said or thought this. Ever. Not my way of thinking. I've always tried to be open to improvement. Seems the better road generally. After all, nobody's perfect. Everyone could benefit from improvement of one sort or another I would think. My academic (and related) credentials have been presented only to describe my qualifications to edit Misplaced Pages, which, I currently understand, may be ok. Please let me know if otherwise of course. Nonetheless, my current UserPage is . (My earlier UserPage, if interested, is ). ::-- ::<q class="inline-quote-talk ">::Separately from this close, I also *must say* that their habit - eccentric, maybe? - of hacking together *long run-on strings of comments* - interspersed - as they are - with *forced pause* breaks and sprinkled with self-aggrandizing - and off-topic, yes - links to their *achievements* makes it - as others have said here - quite frustrating to converse with them. All the worse that the vast majority of their comments of this sort do not substantively reply to the comments they are left in response to.<div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div></q> Not ever true in my edits of mainspace articles. May be somewhat true on some talk-pages only. In any case, lessons learned here as well. Any specific rules broken in my editing have been entirely unintentional. As far as I currently know, all edits that may have been of some issue earlier have been completely corrected some time ago. I currently know of no real rules broken that may not be a matter of unsettled opinion. If otherwise, please specify rules that may have been an issue (and related diffs of course), and suggested ways that I may further improve my related edits going forward. I expect to adjust accordingly (and appropriately) as needed at the first opportunity of course. Thanks. ::::I'm also going to leave links here to ], ], and ]. ] (]/]) 8:18 am, 6 July 2024, Saturday (6 months, 6 days ago) (UTC−8) Thanks again for all your comments and conclusions. I should note that I have , including (+++++and more); as well as to ; ; ; ; ; ; and . ADD: ] (]) 10:10, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| Thanks for reviewing my request. May have been a bit bold (]) on some of my earlier edits and presentations. I sincerely apologize in these instances if overdone of course. Nonetheless, some complaints seem interpretable to me (a "mess" to some may not be one to others for example; "quality" of editing may be another example). The standards on Misplaced Pages are not set in stone so-to-speak, but keep evolving - hence, "]" and "]", and similar phrasing and notions, seem to be an essential part of the DNA of Misplaced Pages, and helpful, I would think, to the better development of Misplaced Pages as a world-class source of quality knowledge and information. This may be even more important these days given the apparent recent removal of "]" on some online websites. Re any apparent ]: none ever intentional, and all completely solved long ago afaik. Hope this helps in some way. | |||
| Can someone please review my actions on ]. I first became aware of the problem when ] reported ] to AIV for repeated blanking (see this edit for an example, it's basically just a revert war between those two versions: ). When I reviewed the case, I decided it wasn't obvious vandalism and was actually a content dispute, and blocked both users for 3 hours for 3RR violation. I also reverted the page to Xandar's version, since I felt it was best to have the version which didn't make controversial accusations be the one visible while the issue is discussed. ] then reverted my revert, giving a very similar edit summary to mine (how his version can be considered the safer version, he didn't explain). I reverted him and left a message on his talk page asking him not to revert again and saying I'd protect the page if he did. He did revert again, leaving a message on my talk page about placing disputed tags rather than removing the text. I reverted again (my 3rd revert, for those counting), and protected the page. Opinions, please. --] 15:46, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Incidentally, I entirely agree that my earlier user page needs a version trimmed down to the very basics, and without any material whatsoover that may possibly be understood as promotional. I have no problem doing that of course. Seems I may have been too ] with that (and related presentations, including those involving references and the like). In any case, thank you for reviewing my request here. I hope my replies (noted above) help in some way to restore my en-Misplaced Pages editing. Stay Safe and Healthy !! - ] (]) 12:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : Good catch Tango. I endorse your actions. The all seem to be edit-wars. I also see a lot of 3rr evasion and gaming going on. - ] (]) 16:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ===Prior talk page discussion=== | |||
| ::This ''might'' be related to the ]. ] has included ] in his checkuser request on suspected JoA vandal socks ]. One day after a different checkuser request specificially related to ] got declined I spotted ] on the list, whom I strongly suspect of being a JoA vandal sock. <font face="Verdana">]<sup>'']]''</sup></font> 16:39, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| {{collapse top|prior discussion copied from ]. ] ] 23:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| ::I think {{user|Tango}} used admin powers in an incorrect way to further the edit war. He could have merely protected the article in interim but since he reverted a user on the article, I dont feel he had ample right to protect it. Xandar's version is the vandalized, censored version of the article. Misplaced Pages doesnt publish what is "safe" it publishes what is ]. With durova's new evidence. I smell trolling on the part of {{user|CC80}} and {{user|Xandar}} (who most probably are the same person).<b>]]</b> 18:56, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| '''Strong oppose:''' DrBogdan has never acknowledged their destructive editing tendencies or willingness to be overly promotional in weighting their contributions to wikipedia, a trait was has continued well into their CBAN with promotional-ish replies here () and his largely being to maintain promotional links. He continues above in lionizing the volume of his edit history without regard for quality and linking, inexplicably, his facebook, livejournal, and wordpress pages. | |||
| :::Generally, I would agree that admins should protect whatever version is showing when they get there but, in cases of controversial accusations, I think it's best to play safe. There was debate on the talk page as the whether or not the accusations were verifiable, so playing safe meant I assumed they weren't and removed them. I didn't investigate to see if they were valid or not (I since have, and I don't think the source given is very reliable, it's an opinion piece.) - that's a content issue and is "not my job" for want of a better phrase. --] 20:28, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I and other editors have spent a lot of time since their ban cleaning up the daily updates and image galleries added persistently to articles. | |||
| :::The Checkuser request mentioned above has been done. ] is a sock of AWilliamson, and has been blocked. ] is probably a different user than CC80. For more details see ]. 05:50, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Since his ban, I did more cleaning at Commons and this not contributing to the project. In this process I learned that Drbogdan has had a history of uploading images with copyright issues, as well. The meat of it, though, has been how he absolutely ruined entire science articles that have required complete rewrites to bring up to standard. | |||
| Moving discussion from below, I see now reason not to keep it all in one place. I know people check the bottom of this page, which is why this section was put at the bottom when I first created it. There is no point putting it at the bottom again. --] 18:21, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I have maintained since it’s very time consuming. So far I’ve had to rewrite (with help from others in places) ,, , , , , and , in addition to the cleanup done before his CBAN. All of these were victims of indiscriminate image galleries added to articles and daily updates on mission status. If we look at one I still haven’t gotten to, like ], it’s still an absolute mess of images smeared all over it. The intent of this list isn't to be any kind of gravedancing, but rather Drbogdan's major contributions have been so consistently low-quality that it's necessary to manually review every single article he's been heavily involved in to remove indiscriminate galleries. | |||
| === ] and use of admin privileges === | |||
| Drbogdan’s defence here and in the past has been a mix of the ] and blaming my “persistence” at the ANI, despite my initial arguments at ANI being opposed to a ban. I think it’s pretty clear at this point that Drbogdan is motivated to edit, but unwilling to acknowledge any of the shortcomings in their editing process and I don’t actually see a planet in which their presence here is a positive given the timbre of this unban request. Especially considering it was so obviously going to be posted bang-on the six month mark. ] 12:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| In a edit-war that ensued on ], ] who is an administrator, used admin tools to revert-war three times with ]. Misuse of rollback and then reverting to his own version – | |||
| *'''Support''', although it sounds like he has some hair-shirt wearing and more 'splaining to do. Nothing wrong in asking for this return after six months (that's what six months means, not six months but maybe wait an extra week or two). Thanks to Warrenmck for their cleanup, not a fun thing to do but needed when mistakes are made. That's what the six month wait is for, punishment for those mistakes. Once six months is served and understanding is admitted the slate should be swept clean and the fatted calf slaughtered for a feast. In seriousness, I've missed Dr.'s edits to science and space articles, he catches and posts new information at a commendable rate and I often learned about recent events from those edits. Taking Warren's concerns into account, maybe Dr. can explain a bit more about understanding why many editors had such concerns to begin with. Thanks, and, hopefully, welcome back. ] (]) 13:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| , , and then protecting the page – ; after reverting to his own version, calling it a ''safe version'' in his edit. A discussion over this is avaiable here – ]. However, instead of apologising for this misuse of admin tools and intimidating non-admin users he insists that it was a ''safe move'' and within ''admin discretion''; hypocritically warns them of a block here – and asks them to ''assume good faith''. — ]<span class="plainlinks"> </span> 17:30, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *:{{tq|Once six months is served and understanding is admitted}} | |||
| *:''And'', not ''or''. Above Drbogdan is actively complaining about the edits made to ] since his ban, and refusing to acknowledge that there were any issues with systematic low quality edits in the first place. For all people like to address his science credentials, by his own biography those are all in medicine and as an actual ] editor in the areas he's most keen to edit I've relied far less on my credentials in editing these articles than he has. There were other space-centric ]s hitting a wall with his editing pattern in the ANI, as well, if I recall. This is what resulted in several editors discussing a proclivity for ] and ]; he has been operating on the assumption that his ability to accurately weight information within planetary science and astrophysics is good, despite constant removal of added content in those fields. Expertise is non-transferrable. ] 13:29, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yes, and Drbogdan, if he comes back, has to adhere to those things or he won't be editing for long. A six-month indef ban seems long enough for someone to realize there may be a few things to do differently (hard to do for those of us who know everything and think that our way ''is'' the highway). He knows that his edits will be closely watched again, so maybe when an edit seems like it may be in question he can bring it to the talk page first (either the article or to one of the "watchers" for comment). Several ways to go about this, and better to have him editing and being careful about penalty calls than watching from the sidelines. ] (]) 13:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I don't want to bludgeon this, but I'm genuinely curious how you can possibly read an understanding of the underlying problem on his part from a post which basically can be summarized as "It wasn't me/I didn't do it/It wasn't intentional". I think there's some very serious wishful thinking on your part, because the above request to be unblocked actually contains every single element that lead to his CBAN; a refusal to recognize issues in the quality of his edits or in fact any meaningful wrongdoing at all and promotional editing. | |||
| :::::{{tq| I currently know of no real rules broken}} | |||
| ::::This isn't the basis for the removal of a CBAN as "lesson learned" ] 13:58, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I may be optimistic and hoping that this discussion will bring more comments from Drbogdan about these concerns. As I said, when we think we're right but other editors disagree then the process is to go through a long discussion to try to talk some sense into them (as seen from our point of view, which hopefully includes the ability to change our own mind) - because in Misplaced Pages even a 13-year-old high school student has as much say as a Dr. or professor. That power given to the uninformed is a trademark of Misplaced Pages, but somehow it works and the place runs well while growing and improving by the second. Dr. gives much weight to IAR, as he should (IAR, undiscussed by most editors, is policy and a darn good one), but you have to know it when you see it (from the perspective of that 14-year-old (who just this second had a birthday) editing while in study hall). ] (]) 14:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::] in Drbogdan's case included a lot of copyvio, both at Commons (uploading non-free images) and in article spaces (linking copyright violating youtube videos inline in articles). ] 15:23, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Thanks for reviewing my request. May have been a bit bold (]) on some of my earlier edits and presentations. I sincerely apologize in these instances if overdone of course. Nonetheless, some complaints seem interpretable to me (a "mess" to some may not be one to others for example; "quality" of editing may be another example). The standards on Misplaced Pages are not set in stone so-to-speak, but keep evolving - hence, "]" and "]", and similar phrasing and notions, seem to be an essential part of the DNA of Misplaced Pages, and helpful, I would think, to the better development of Misplaced Pages as a world-class source of quality knowledge and information. This may be even more important these days given the apparent recent removal of "]" on some online websites. Re any apparent ]: none ever intentional, and all completely solved long ago afaik. Hope this helps in some way. ] (]) 15:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Agree with nick''' - I feel like I cant post my replies anymore on that talk page, for fear I will be blocked for "incivility". I myself have found an academic journal to source most of the page (do refer to - ''Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 84, No. 4 (Oct. - Dec., 1964), pp. 483-484'') but am afraid if I quote sections of it and comment, I may be insulting people an therefore will be blocked under a variety of false premises. Instead of encouraging informed debate, Tango is stifling it. <b>]]</b> 17:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :From ] → Admins should not protect pages in which they are involved. -- '']'' - <small>]</small> 17:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| So, as you can see I have collapsed the above discussion for the moment. This is a community-imposed block based on a consensus determined at ], it must go through the same process if an unblock is to be considered. I can, however copy over the above comments if and when that is done so the users who have already commented don't have to start over. Before we go there, I'd like to ask, in light of what I have just explained and the feedback already given, if you are sure this is the appeal you want to submit for review by the community? ] ] 01:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Oh dear, this seems to be a bad month for administrative... contention. ]<small> <sup>(Need help? ])</sup></small> 17:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Thank you for your comments. And clarification of the relevant procedure. Yes, you may submit the related appeal. Thank you for your help with this. Stay Safe and Healthy !! - ] (]) 01:53, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| As I told Nick on my talk page, this has already been discussed here. Try scrolling up a bit and put your comments there. --] 17:40, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::That's a bad idea. Bebblebrox was giving you a subtle hint. Rewrite your appeal to address the main concerns. ] (]) 01:56, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thanks for your comments - seems like my current appeal above addresses the main concerns presented in the original ANI concluding comments - at least as far as I'm aware of at the moment - am I overlooking something? - ] (]) 02:15, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Many things. I've previously addressed them up above and they have recently been addressed in the current, now collapsed thread. This isn't rocket science. You're intelligent, and I think you can figure it out. ] (]) 02:16, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Seems like my very last comments (copied below) in the collapsed thread does that in fact. Certainly intended to do that, and thought I did in fact - ] (]) 02:32, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Copy of my last comments in the thread: | |||
| :::::{{tq|Thanks for reviewing my request. May have been a bit bold (]) on some of my earlier edits and presentations. I sincerely apologize in these instances if overdone of course. Nonetheless, some complaints seem interpretable to me (a "mess" to some may not be one to others for example; "quality" of editing may be another example). The standards on Misplaced Pages are not set in stone so-to-speak, but keep evolving - hence, "]" and "]", and similar phrasing and notions, seem to be an essential part of the DNA of Misplaced Pages, and helpful, I would think, to the better development of Misplaced Pages as a world-class source of quality knowledge and information. This may be even more important these days given the apparent recent removal of "]" on some online websites. Re any apparent ]: none ever intentional, and all completely solved long ago afaik. Hope this helps in some way. ] (]) ]}} ] (]) 02:32, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Incidentally, I entirely agree that my earlier user page needs a version trimmed down to the very basics, and without any material whatsoover that may possibly be understood as promotional. I have no problem doing that of course. Seems I may have been too ] with that (and related presentations, including those involving references and the like). ] (]) 03:09, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::A stated interest in using '''bold''' and '''IAR''' to more of a degree than most editors may seem too close to how you've edited in the past that a group of users objected to. Maybe tone that down or even go the opposite way - in some instances where you believe IAR to be the correct solution maybe plan to first take these to talk pages for feedback (you can likely "feel" when an edit will be objected to, and those are the ones to discuss beforehand). In any case, after an indef ban, editing practices should at least be modified to take others points-of-view into account. Make sense? ] (]) 12:17, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Thanks for your comments. Yes. I *completely* agree with everything you've noted (and had thought of all of this earlier myself as well). I fully expect to do all of this at the next oppotunity. No problem whatsoever with any of this. - ] (]) 12:41, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{collapse bottom}} | |||
| *Shouldn't this be on ], not ]? <small> also, this is weird. This section, and this section only, has a pause between typing the "<nowiki>]]</nowiki>" at the end of links when I hit it fast. Not other sections on the page, and not the edit summary box either...</small> - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **<small>Tech issue appears to start after the "Separately from this close" quote above. - ] <sub>]</sub> 00:00, 11 January 2025 (UTC)</small> | |||
| **:I put the discussion here because this is where the block was decided. Seems like it should go back to the same place? | |||
| **:I've had a really long couple of days but if there are still technical problems here tomorrow I'll look into it. ] ] 03:53, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ***:I ''think'' unblock requests usually go on AN, but that's fair. And as a further note, the "delay" between the "]]" typing gets longer the further I go down the page when editing that section. Editing just this subsection, it's just fine, so there's something in that quote or just below it that is making Firefox go pear-shaped. It's ''very'' weird. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:12, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Further Discussion of Community block appeal by ]=== | |||
| :Yes, I have provided the link to that discussion here. I believe this location would provide a view to a larger audience. — ]<span class="plainlinks"> </span> 17:45, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Any replies from Drbogdan to further comments here may be copied over. ] ] 23:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' I'm not sure what that stream of consciousness is trying to say but it goes nowhere near addressing the issues resulting in the ban. ] (]) 23:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' I'm not seeing anything in the Wall of text that shows the editor understands why they were banned and how their behaviour needs to change. ] (]) 23:54, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' I see nothing here that suggests Drbogdan understands the problem and is willing to take positive steps to avoid it. Rather the opposite. ] (]) 00:20, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' unblock request does not address the reason for their ban. And the content of the request just goes to show why the ban should be continued and why they are not of benefit to the community and are just wasting other editor's time. ] ] 01:06, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' fails to address the reason the ban was given, nor give any adequate assurances that the behavior that resulted in the ban will not be an issue going forward.] (]) 02:14, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Oppose:''' The standard offer requires that banned users promise to avoid engaging in the behaviors that led to their ban. I do not see any such promise in this unblock request, so this appeal should be struck down. ] (]) 06:12, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::This is the same page. How can it provide a view to a different audience? --] 18:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. The unblock request provides neither adequate specifics to convince me that the previous ban was improperly applied, nor any apology nor promise to do better regarding the behavior that led to the ban. —] (]) 07:53, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::That's not the point of the discussion really. Users/admins tend to look at the bottom of the page, rather than coming down from the top. — ]<span class="plainlinks"> </span> 18:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' - The unblock request largely shows the same issues they were blocked for - self promo (links to facebook, wordpress and livejournal), not taking on community advice (all responses are "nuh-uh, not true"), and difficulties communicating (formatting is a mess and responses are only tangentially related to what they are quoting). Their defense is mainly "I never did anything that bad", not the required acknowledgement of the problem and indication of improval. In the unblock request they specificly use of the ] article as an example of a good contribution - which has {{tq|The name ''Jazzy'', for example, was taken from a girl named Jazzy who grew up in Grand Junction, Colorado, USA. Her father worked for NASA and contributed to the findings and naming of the rocks.}} unsourced in the second paragraph. ] ] 09:55, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Unconstructive editing by Wolverine X-eye == | |||
| :].<b>]]</b> 17:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Though i have not edited Goa Inquisition myself, i am compelled to comment here. ] appears to have prematurely blocked the article without an objective analysis of its recent edit hostory. ] of late has been plagued by POV-pushing-sockpuppets. While check user on ] may have been inconclusive, his edit patterns do bear striking similarities to {{vandal|CC80}}'s... | |||
| ] though largely civil, seems to be highly prejudiced and obtuse in his dealings with Indian editors. He for one simply rebishes every argument and reference presented to him as "unrealiable". The situation has become unworkable and i doubt whether discussion on the talk page would be conclusive. | |||
| <b><font color="saffron">]</font></b><sup><b><font color="red">]</font></b></sup> 18:16, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Tango protected an unsourced version of the article. I disagree with his actions. article should be either protected to the correct version, or uprotected. He protected xander's version who seems to be vandalist troll.--] 22:22, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Whatever might be the issue here, ] is not. Don't complain about the wrong version getting protected. -] <small><sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></small> 22:24, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::What kind of talk is that? I'll remember that when try to go for admin. Keeping false info protected like that and abusing admin privileges hurts the credibilty of wikipedia.--] 06:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Let's put to rest one recurring complaint: although ] was a sockpuppet of the ] but] isn't. The checkuser came up unlikely and my investigation also determined they're probably different. This article has several problems and I've only cleared up one of them. <font face="Verdana">]<sup>'']]''</sup></font> 15:55, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ---- | |||
| I am posting this here because, among other concerns of continued disruptive editing, I believe that this user's actions are impacting the quality and integrity of the GAN process. I’ve looked at this for long enough and tried to aid where possible, but it seems that @] is unwilling to change their behaviour on this website, hence why I saw fit to bring this here. | |||
| I object to the behaviour of Nick. He initially asked me for an explanation on my talk page and when I asked him to be more specific he responded sarcasticly (bordering on uncivil) and reported me here without actually discussing the matter with me first, what was the point in going to my talk page if you weren't going to actually talk to me? He then created a new section which has the only effect of giving his comments more weight that those that have gone before. He has misrepresented my actions in his description - he says I called my version the safest version, which is nonsense, when I used that edit summary it was my first edit to the page, how could it be my version? I was never in a content war, I was simply determining what version should be there while the discussion takes place, I have no opinion on what version is the better one, only which is the safer until consensus is reached. Also, he quotes me as saying I used "admin discretion", I never used that phrase or anything similar, I have no idea what he's refering to. He says that I didn't apologise for my actions when I explained them here - that's because I was the one that brought the matter here. Why would I apologise when I hadn't been told I'd done anything wrong (other than by someone already involved on the page)? I was asking for a 2nd opinion (and the one I got was that I'd done the right thing), if I felt I had anything to apologise for, I simply wouldn't have protected the page in the first place. Nick is trying to make out that I've refused to listen to criticism, which is complete nonsense, I was the one that came here to ask for criticism in the first place! --] 18:32, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| They have passed several articles through GAN over the past few months that exhibit many edits in a short period (numbering into the hundreds), often paired with unexplained removal of information. These absurdly high edit counts clog up page histories and are not exclusive to their GAN targets either, as can be seen in ] three-month-old discussion on the user’s talk page from back when I first noticed this ‘unusual editing style’. Some examples from around this time follow below, although I should add that this editing pattern has not changed: | |||
| :'''Reply''' - Dont lie. You made three reverts and . After that you threaten me . I should have reported you on AN/3rr (at least for going against spirit of ]). The worst part was the threats, I was afraid of getting blocked by an abuser of admin powers. I demand that {{user|Tango}} recuse from ] the page, and to find another (preferably impartial) admin to take care of it. You're back on ANI for threatening users after abusing admin powers.<b>]]</b> 22:38, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| Wolverine has been asked multiple times to try and reduce their edit counts so that page histories remain useable, and despite saying they will, have refused to take any actual action in this regard. One can see this pattern repeated over and over on their contributions page. | |||
| Sadly, high edit counts with minimal change are the least of the issues present here. Most recently, Wolverine passed Fennec Fox, but after closing and reopening the GAN himself in the middle of an active (and not strictly positive) review by another user. A new review was started by another user within a few days, and while they did acknowledge the existence of the second review, nothing was done about its improper closing and only a few sentences were added to the article between the two reviews (which can be found and respectively) | |||
| ::I agree. Tango saw that xandar kept repeatedly deleteing sourced material. He not only rved a couple times but he protected it. and imparital admin would be better.--] 03:57, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| In many places where editors don’t immediately agree with Wolverine, he turns to insults, personal attacks and otherwise inappropriate comments. A non-exhaustive list of examples follows below: | |||
| ====Arbitrary section break==== | |||
| * Under ‘Your talk page’, accusing another editor of inappropriately handling a discussion with a minor (the other user was, in fact, not a minor). | |||
| I am concerned that this seems to have turned into a kick-a-man-while-he's-down incident against Tango, by what seems to be users with similar interests. I think that until a neutral admin reviews this, neither side should attack the other any further. – ]] 04:20, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| * Fennec fox GAN , | |||
| * List of pholidotans merge proposal , | |||
| * Narwhal talk page | |||
| * Own talk page | |||
| The user has also shown an unwillingness to put effort into article improvement when requested in the review processes, and an unwillingness to put effort into finishing reviews they start. Again, a non-exhaustive list of examples can be found below. | |||
| :Are you accusing us of POV-pushing? I find it incivil on your part to examine users' motives through your ] on the matter. I happen to be the main contributor to the ] page and have worked for months to fight vandals and find reliable sources (refer to the one I discussed above). <s>If were kicking Tango while he's down (for abusing admin privileges) then I could theoretically assume you are here to back up a fellow sysop</s><small>struck out see below</small>. Note that at least two admins have posted here attesting to the findings.<b>]]</b> 04:40, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| * Own talk page, starting and then not finishing two GA reviews (https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Wolverine_X-eye/Archive_2#Inactivity_during_reviews) and drive-by nomination of the World War I article, a bit of a while back when compared to other examples in this case (6 months). https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Wolverine_X-eye/Archive_2#Drive-by_nomination | |||
| ::I am neutral, and have not looked at the article. NEither am I a sysop. It is very inappropriate to mischaracterise my actions as you have done. – ]] 04:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| * After being advised to do a thorough check on all the citations in the narwhal page (see the closing comments on , Wolverine opened a for the article four days later stating that they ‘need to know where the article's source-to-text integrity is at’, indicating a fundamental lack of knowledge about the state of the article that he had, at this point, attempted to promote to FA four times in five months. In this same review, he also tried to get others to do a source review for him or make a peer review spot-check count in place of a spot-check at the next FAC. | |||
| :::And accusing me of "kicking someone when they are down" is appropriate? especially when they threatened to block me? Quite hypocritical on your part.<b>]]</b> 04:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I did not accuse you of kicking someone when they're down. I said I'm concerned a group of users seem to have turned this into such an incident. – ]] 04:51, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| It only looks as if ] seems to be bent on justifying his protection of the article, after misusing his rollback and revert-warring on it. Bordering on incivility? (Although, I don't think I ever was), I believe that it is better to be uncivil rather than abusing your admin privileges. We are not given muscles to protect/endorse our own versions while asserting neutrality and intimidate non-admin users with blocks. Period. — ]<span class="plainlinks"> </span> 04:58, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I hope that a satisfactory conclusion can be reached, and thank you for your time. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 00:29, 11 January 2025 (UTC)</small> | |||
| ::I read Chacor's comments and did not think they were directed at a specific group of people. However, I did notice a group of people responding as though it was directed at them. ]<small> <sup>(Need help? ])</sup></small> 04:59, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I don't plan on getting involved in this, except to say that my ] that you linked to is a follow up. The original is from June and can be found higher up on that archive page at ]. ] (]) 00:48, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===What is done, is done (unfortunately)=== | |||
| ::Hi, {{u|The Morrison Man}}, let me address this promptly. So your first paragraph talks about the high number of edits I make to GAN pages. Well, I don't necessarily see that as a problem because you're the only editor who has made complaints about this, and if I may, I'm by no means the only editor who exhibits such behavior, so it's not at all clear to me why you're targeting me on this. Now regarding the 3 articles you listed, those were the articles that you brought to my attention in that discussion, and since then I've not repeated the behavior. The Fennec Fox incident is not an issue IMO. The editor in the first GAN clearly stated that they think the article was not up to GA-standards and that I should re-nominate it. Seeing that they were new to GAN and that they happened to be inactive at the time, I decided to help them close the nomination as that was their intention, but they didn't seem to know how to follow through with that. In Example 1, I read the whole discussion and it was pretty clear the editor was a minor. Sure, the talk page owner happened to talk to two people, one a minor, the other not, but they clearly spent more time with the minor talking about irrelevant stuff that aren't wiki-related. The editor even admits that they were in fact talking to a minor. The Fennec fox GAN examples are not personal attacks. They're just criticism. There's a difference. About Pholidota: I got a bit heated after Elmidae insulted and made hostile comments towards me. Yeah, that was a pretty contentious discussion overall. The Narwhal talk page link is not a personal attack or a insult, rather it's simply telling the IP to leave me alone as they were annoying me with those pings. I wanted to be as blunt as possible. The last link is just me explaining to a new editor why I reverted their edit. I said I didn't want to have the conversation again because if you look through the archives, you'll see that we had that exact discussion, but with a different article, before. I didn't think it was gonna happen again, and I sure didn't want it to happen for a third time, so I let the user know. Your last part talks about me not putting effort in my nominations and reviews. Well, I'm not the only editor who struggles to finish reviews, and I'll admit that sometimes I bite off a little more than I can chew. I did finish one of those reviews though. I would also state that I've made over 30 reviews, and out of those 30, I failed to complete maybe six of them. World War I was a drive-by nom, I'll admit, didn't realize that at the time, but that's the only case where I've unwittingly made a drive-by nom, so...We reach the end of your comment, and regarding your remarks about the FAC situation, well all I can say is that I needed insurance before I made another nomination, as the last two noms failed for sourcing issues. I was not confident about my scanning of the article's sourcing, so I needed a source review to see if the sourcing issues were still evident. I did scan a large portion of the article's sourcing but I just needed that extra insurance. Yep, that should be it. ] (]) 07:10, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| This is my assessment of the situation and some comments; feel free to respond below. | |||
| :::The fennec fox edits are ''absolutey'' ]. {{tqq|Is this all about the message I left on your friend's talk page? You don't do much reviewing and judging by this review you also don't seem to be an experienced reviewer. This review has been unfair and your judgment on multiple aspects are off by a long shot}} is ]. Also {{tqq|I decided to help them close the nomination as that was their intention, but they didn't seem to know how to follow through with that.}} - you ''do not'' close your own GANs. If you start it, you do not close it. Full stop. {{tqq|The Narwhal talk page link is not a personal attack or a insult}} - no, sorry, it is indeed a ]. ] is one of the ], it is ''not'' optional and you seem to spend a lot of time tap-dancing on or over the line of it. I suggest you reconsider your approach in many areas to maintain a civil, collaborative environment. - ] <sub>]</sub> 08:10, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *There was an edit war on the article page ] – , ] protected the page – . | |||
| ::::{{Re|The Bushranger}} I made that comment based on a comment they made . I also took into consideration the fact that they reviewed my GAN as their ''very first review'' less than 24 hours (if I'm not mistaken) after nomination. And so I'd say that's my evidence for the comment. I apologize if this is not enough. Regarding the Narwhal bit, I didn't intend to make the comment a personal aattack. I intended to make it clear to the IP that I didn't want them to annoy me with those pings. I could have handled the situation better, I agree. But what I found annoying was that they attacked me on the basis of a YouTube video that discusses how I wrongfully reverted the creator's edit, only to later realize my mistake, rectifying it accordingly. Nevertheless, I will definitely take your words above into consideration. ] (]) 09:01, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *] used his '''''' tool in order to revert another user, – , , and reverted once manually – , calling this a ''safe version''. | |||
| :I would prefer not to get involved in an ANI discussion, but here we are. I will add my statement of also having noticed Wolverine XI's less than mature behavior at the List of pholidotans merge, and the time they- without making significant improvements- nominated ] for Good Article three times in a row before it passed (and without really addressing the comments of the two reviewers who failed it). | |||
| *Tango then protected the article to "his own version", so the talk regarding the "The Wrong Version" is not really the point of discussion here, Amarkov. Not material at all. | |||
| :Unfortunately, I feel it necessary to point out that Wolverine's frequent username changes make looking into their past activity difficult. But since his first(?) time here at AN () his fast editing and unwillingness to learn has been a problem, and unfortunately Wolverine is currently on . It's been a year since he was unblocked and he still hasn't learned, and I no longer have much hope that he will. ] (]) 15:11, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *This is where Tango says that he meant to keep the article safe, as the did not believe the source given was reliable enough. – , – Nothing but exercising your discretion and protecting your own version. | |||
| *I requested Tango to explain what he meant by this – , and his reply was rather convenient – ''You're going to have to be more specific... that's just a history page.'' – , I did not see any point of discussing this with him any further. | |||
| *In a single edit, Tango tackles the content dispute and warns other users of a block ''in general'' to assume good faith with him. – . ''I am monitoring this discussion, and will be handing out 24 hour blocks to anyone violating these guidelines.'' | |||
| *In his ''complaint about Nick's behaviour'' – , – he states ''He has misrepresented my actions in his description - he says I called my version the safest version, which is nonsense, when I used that edit summary it was my first edit to the page, how could it be my version? I was never in a content war, I was simply determining what version should be there while the discussion takes place'' – I am not even sure if Tango understands what really is a content-dispute and how administrators are expected to behave in/respond to a particular situation. ''I have no opinion on what version is the better one, only which is the safer until consensus is reached.'' – well there's his point of view. (see the diff) | |||
| *Regarding ]'s comment here about ''kick-a-man-while-he's-down'' – The man has kicked himself once again, by repeatedly showing that he disregards the community's guidelines and policies. | |||
| *I never wanted Tango to apologise to me, or any other person for that matter. Just express his sincere regrets to the incident and give his assurance that it would never happen again. The matter could have been sorted out, there and then. | |||
| *The point in having this conversation was that the community should be aware of the facts as they happened there; as I, personally see no point in unprotecting the page and having the other users revert-war over their own version. | |||
| Thanks, — ]<span class="plainlinks"> </span> 06:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::You do mean that ] ''is'' really the point, right? -] <small><sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></small> 06:03, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::"His own version" is precisely my point. — ]<span class="plainlinks"> </span> 06:09, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Just to clarify my thoughts from above: I do agree that Tango should not have used rollback on a content dispute, neither should he have protected the page, but rather gotten someone else to look at it. – ]] 06:04, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::In my opinion a better way ] may have approached this by requesting protection at ] or ask other admins to protect the page since he reverted the article '''OR''' revert then immediately protect, ] did say that admins are allowed to "''Reverting to an old version of the page from a week or so before the controversy started if there is a clear point before the controversy.''". Though I would say the outcome of the page is likely to be exactly the same as it is currently, so I would say this is more of a procedural issue than an abuse of admin power. --] <sup>(])</sup> 07:28, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::The article in concern has been experiencing an onslaught of edit-wars from 21<sup>st</sup> August 2006. Tango did not revert to that version at all. He has admitted that he reverted to what he termed a ''safe version''. Regards, — ]<span class="plainlinks"> </span> 07:37, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Ach, this isn't good at all. It's always better to get a second opinion when tools are needed in a content dispute, and I think Tango got involved wrt content here. RFPP would have been a good neutral option if the page needed protection. And mentions of blocks really just ends up escalating the situation -- ] 07:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == KirillMarasin promoting medical treatments and "conversion therapy" == | |||
| Rollback is to be used only to revert vandalism. Pages should never be protected if you're involved in a content dispute.--] 08:11, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| {{user|KirillMarasin}} | |||
| == ] - feedback please == | |||
| I think we have two related problems with KirillMarasin. First up, he promotes and seeks to legitimise the pseudo-medical practice of "]" (, , Yes, that really is a medical claim being sourced to Reddit!) and secondly he adds medical claims to other articles which are either unreferenced or which are improperly referenced to sites selling supplements (, , and ). Attempts by multiple editors to warn him have been unavailing and I read as both a personal attack and a highly offensive suggestion that I practice "conversion therapy" on myself. Beyond that, this is a clear and sustained case of ] and ]. --] (]) 02:51, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I'm quickly bringing this up here as a) the "victim" (and after reviewing the situation I too) have msged the admin involved with no reponse and b) I believe it to be so cut and dried that dragging it through the drawn out ] process is not needed. Essentially, the Pornotube article has been created and deleted three times before, twice under ] and once as an unchallenged {{tl|prod}}. Today ] created it, and it was quickly speedy deleted by ], with the deletion summary ''nn website''. I happen to see the authors complaints on Zoe's page (Kane5187 was then told ''"Claims of notability were not cited with reliable sources."'' and that the article was a recreation of previously deleted material. | |||
| :I don't think I promoted anything though. I didn't say it was good or bad, I was trying to be neutral. ] (]) 15:28, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Even if my edits are not high-quality, the article on conversion therapy has a lot of gaslighting, saying time and time again there are no treatments, when the opposite is true. ] (]) 09:54, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Not according to science baaed RS which is all that matters from Misplaced Pages's PoV ] (]) 10:02, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::What is RS? ] (]) 12:47, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Good question! You were supposed to know that in order to edit Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 12:57, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::It's short for "Reliable Sources". You can learn about it at ] @]. ] (]) 15:19, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Thank you, I've already read it. ] (]) 15:24, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Not only are your edits not of high-quality, at least two of your sources are garbage, and you're edit warring at that article as well. You need to step away from that article.]] 10:30, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Why would you even consider 4Chan to be a legitimate source for anything, let alone a science/medicine-based topic? That, in of itself, is a major issue. ] (]) 11:57, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Just looking at the three ] edits mentioned by DanielRigal, makes a medical claim without citing any sources at all and cites reddit and 4chan for medical claims. Finally, cites a paper in the Journal of Neurosurgery for the claim that {{tq|some methods of conversion therapy were working}}. The paper in question in fact says that {{tq|while Heath claimed that the patient had a full recovery and engaged exclusively in heterosexual activities, other sources argued that the patient continued to have homosexual relationships}}. Any of these diffs on their own would be totally unacceptable. {{pb}}Additionally, a glance at ] shows that KirillMarasin not only added these claims once, but reinstated them after their removal was adequately explained. e.g. they add the "some methods of conversion therapy were working" claim, the addition is reverted with the edit summary explaining that the source does not support the addition, KirillMarasin reinserts the text with the edit summary {{tq|It doesn't need deleting, I'll try to edit it to better reflect the article.}} When somebody reverts an edit because it contradicts the cited source, you need to fix that error {{em|before}} reinstating it. ] (]) 10:56, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Would a ] on ] prevent further inappropriate editing? Note this is a ''question'', I'm not familiar with ] and it may very well not have any bearing or may be the wrong approach here. --] (]) 11:45, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:I think there's a CIR issue as well. The slipping of sources from 4chan into a contentious topic seems either like overt trolling or a serious lack of understanding of sources.] (]) 11:55, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::I tested the treatments on myself before writing. ] (]) 15:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Anecdotal evidence does not belong in an encyclopedia. Only scientific evidence qualifies as a reliable source that can be quoted. ] (]) 15:23, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::I'd still like to ], even though I'm beginning to have my doubts. I think this is a CIR issue first and foremost, with a mixture of POV-pushing and lack of understanding of ], ] and ]. Since they are here, and reading this page, and haven't edited since they started following this conversation, I think {{re|KirillMarasin}} should read those policies first, before they attempt to edit again. If they continue with their current editing pattern, though, a ] would be entirely appropriate. — ] (]) 12:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::The editor ] to ] in the past, before the most recent spate of unsourced or promotionally-sourced edits, so it does not seem to have had any positive effect. -- ] (]) 15:43, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:Not all of the problem edits have been ]; the ones listed by the OP aa diffs 5 through 8 are on sexual health matters not under that GENSEX guideline. A more general medical topic ban, widely construed, may be more appropriate. -- ] (]) 14:18, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :], ]. I can assume good faith, as this editor presumably grew up in a culture where widespread homophobia is normalized (referring, of course, to 4chan), but these edits are repulsive. I would expect that an editor of 15 years would be aware of policies like ], let alone ]. Editors who like to tweak numbers and facts without citations can wreak a lot more disruption than just inserting insane nonsense on controversial articles, which is easily spotted and reversed. –] (] • ]) 15:15, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| For a start, the previously articles were literally one line, specifically: | |||
| ::I tested the treatments on myself before writing. And why do you use strong language on my edits instead of trying to stay neutral? ] (]) 15:21, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{user|KirillMarasin}} has been here for more than a decade. It's hard to believe that suddenly, he doesn't know that 4Chan isn't a usable source - and in a topic like this, too. Signs are pointing to NOTHERE. ] (]) 14:13, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| <blockquote>'''Pornotube''' is a video search engine which plays ] videos similar to ].</blockquote> | |||
| :I'm sorry for posting low-quality content here. I will adhere to the rules in the future. ] (]) 15:12, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == History of disruptive COI editing == | |||
| Admins can view that . Apart from being literally ten times the size of that version, Kane's article stated, and was referenced; | |||
| I didn't wanted to go through this, but I'm done being patient. There appears to be a long history of disruptive COI editing by {{u|Armandogoa}} on his father's article ]. He usually edits this page after every few months or so, and seems to add unreferenced content as per his latest edit done on the page here . I had many of his edits reverted myself. | |||
| <blockquote>Little more than two months after its creation, PornoTube is already one of the most visited adult sites in the world .</blockquote> | |||
| I also did place a COI warning on his talk page over a year ago . But he seems to not understand it this way. His father is an active politician, and considering our ] policies, I think this editor should be blocked to prevent any other controversial or peacock material added in the future. ]<sup>2003</sup>(]) 07:54, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Admins can view the article , nonadmins I have recreated it in my userspace for your reference ]. As I stated on Zoe's talk page: | |||
| == Disruptive ] == | |||
| :"Sorry Zoe but I kindly request you revert your deletion of this; I dont believe in wheel warring but if you do not Im afraid I will. A 4 second search on the site found and an Alexa rank of 205. You may not believe this to be notable, but regardless '''it is DEFINITELY not speediable'''. Also does not qualify as reposted material as it is a completely different version to that which was last deleted. Again, please restore immediately and take to AFD if you so desire" | |||
| A google news search found on its popularity, as well as . Can I have some feedback please.''']''' 16:28, December 16, 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ] has , to stop changing content without a reliable source but continues to do so ignoring and being non-responsive to warnings. Sumeshmeo got 3 same warnings in 2023. I do not think that Sumeshmeo is here to improve Misplaced Pages pages. ] (]) 10:55, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :In addition, I think ] explains his position quite well: | |||
| * In future, it helps if you provide diffs when making a report so people are better able to assess it. Having looked at Sumesheo's contribs, is a recent egregious example where not only do they change the text of the article, they also change the title of the source cited so it appears to support that claim (and break the url in the process). In fact as far as I can tell, every single edit they have made so far this month is to increase the claimed gross takings of a film, without ever providing a source or explanation, in most cases explicitly contradicting the existing cited source. ] (]) 11:49, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::''Excuse me, but what are you doing? You just re-speedied a PERFECTLY good, well-cited, not-even-conceivably-without-a-claim-to-notability non-"spam" (as you claimed in your edit summary) Misplaced Pages article. It was not recreation of deleted material, as I rewrote the entire thing myself -- and even if it had been, WP:CSD prohibits your speedying it under that pretense as all prior deletions were speedies and prods, which per G4 don't count towards the recreation speedy.'' | |||
| :Look forward to your feedback ''']''' 16:34, December 16, 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :A7 doesn't require a source for the assertion of notability anyway. Plus, any controversial assertion should go to AfD automatically. This is a chronic problem. --] <small>]</small> 17:04, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I dunno, at the risk of sounding like a process wonk, take it to DRV... you'll have my "vote" to undelete. It shouldn't have been speedy deleted. But there isn't such a pressing need for an article on this topic that I'm going to reverse Zoe's deletion. --] 17:54, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Well, if we were ''really'' a process wonk, then it would be clear to see that this was an out-of-process deletion that should be reversed (pending community consensus) :) I personally just think Zoe was a little quick on the trigger. I'll wait until she has responded before I take any action though. —] <font color="#C46100" size="1">]</font> 19:40, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I just want to clarify something: I only created one version, the most recently deleted one. I first got involved when I ran across the PornoTube article created by someone else, made an edit or two, went away and came back to find it gone. I checked the log and didn't think that "''nn website''" qualified for deletion, so I my concerns at Zoe's talk. Zoe responded with , which I didn't feel justified a delete, as I indicated when I again, expressing my intent to recreate the article. At that point, I wanted to create an article that was without a shadow of a doubt a notable and verifiable article -- and I backed up a copy of it, pre-deletion, ]. So, anyway, I just wanted to clarify that I only created one new article, but was involved in the dispute over two deletions. ] 18:11, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Uncivil behavior == | |||
| The cited 'source' for the sites notability is just saying it has an alexa rank of 300. Other than that it makes no other claims.. and mostly just sounds like a paid advertisement, it's also in a section of the site which appears to have many such paid advertisements. Alexa data is worse than useless.. anyone can easily fake out the publicly available alexa data and they don't make much of an effort to stop it. If the site is as notable as it's being claimed to be, we'd have more indicators than alexa.--] 20:17, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| : --] 20:24, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| {{ping|Jasper_Deng}} has been continually bludgeoning a conversation about a page rename, casting unsupported aspersions, acting uncivilly, and newcomers (me). | |||
| A subject not being notable is not a reason for speedy deletion. You can only speedy delete if the article doesn't assert notability. This one clearly did, so it should be undeleted. Any discussion about the actual notability of this site should be done over at AfD. --] 20:39, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| '''Teahouse''' | |||
| This article should not have been speedied. There are a good selection of notable sources which discuss the site such as those mentioned on the article before it was deleted and ones such as , (It is a blog, but a very notable one - see their about page), etc... I would suggest that the page be unsalted and undeleted. If the admin in question still feels it should be deleted, they should take it to ]. This shouldn't need to go through ] as process was not followed to delete it.-]<sup>]</sup> 21:22, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| During a lively discussion about a , it occurred to me that I might be able to improve this encyclopedia by starting a conversations that could '''POTENTIALLY''' lead to future guidance or policy regarding how to name natural disaster articles. | |||
| :I will undelete the article and put it up for AfD. We don't need to have it go through DRV to decide whether the deletion was improper, then an AfD. Let's just get this issue over with on AfD so we can move on. ]]] 22:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| They followed me to the teahouse and: | |||
| :]. Enjoy. ]]] 22:50, 16 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *Bludgeoned me | |||
| It's been deleted by four admins. But I'm the one who gets the heat? Thanks for the discussion before the wheel war. ]|] 05:22, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *casted aspersions {{tq| it is frowned upon to post about an ongoing decision making discussion elsewhere (unless it is to raise serious misconduct concerns) as it could be considered WP:CANVASSING, particularly when the incipient consensus is leaning against your position}} You'll note that my post in the teahouse was asking how to start a conversation about potential future policy improvements, not at all about the ongoing conversation. And even if it were, the practice is quite common on noticeboards, why would it be any different in the teahouse such that it would be WP:CANVASSING? | |||
| :Well, one of the criteria for ] is that the content must be largely the same (and in fact, the administrator is instructed to "ensure that the material is substantially identical and not merely a new article on the same subject"). The previous speedy deletions were okay because those versions did not assert notability. The version you deleted did, and was a completely different article from the previous deletions. Not criticizing, I've certainly made similar mistakes where I didn't look close enough, just explaining why you're "getting heat". —] <font color="#C46100" size="1">]</font> 05:38, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Don't sweat the heat, Zoe. We appreciate the work you do here. I'm sure Grandmasterka was acting with the best of intentions in undeleting the article for AfD, and that the reversal of your action was only after contemplation of the thread here -- ] 07:08, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::: Yeah - one minute we're told to go empty ], in the next we're catching shit for doing it. No pleasing some people :-) <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 18:05, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Heh... The first time I've ever undone another admin action on Misplaced Pages, ''ever'', I do it to the user who specifically talks about ] on their user page. I suppose I should have waited for Zoe to at least read this and discuss it (I don't think you had read this, had you?) But I had to go somewhere else fairly soon after I read this and the consensus on this page seemed clear. Lame, I know. ]]] 23:41, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| In the process they said {{tq|Don't overthink this}} to me. | |||
| I just closed the afd. There was a clear consensus that was unlikely to change by having it hanging around. If anyone objects, I would be happy to re-open it. ]] 04:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| To which I replied {{tq|Please do not patronize me by suggesting I am overthinking this, and please don't WP:BLUDGEON me by responding to every comment I've made to someone else regarding this.}} | |||
| == Leaving WIkipedia == | |||
| *They then me by again saying in part {{tq|I'm afraid you are overthinking it}} | |||
| Somebody please delete my user, talk page and archives. I understand that they can still be accessed by admins if need arises, and I do not want to leave them public. —] 00:24, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| * and made continued, unsupported, exaggerated claims of misconduct against me {{tq|Don't cast the WP:ASPERSION of "willful disrespect".}} | |||
| '''Talk page''' | |||
| : This user has been involved in a long ongoing dispute which has been submitted for arbitration . Please do not act on this request until the outcome of this arbitration has been finished, as many of this user's edits are material to the complaint. - ] 00:36, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::If it is the users actions that are under complaint and they are leaving, I fail to see why you would need to keep the arbitration case open (having not read it yet). I also setrongly hope that right to vanish is not being overridden by an ongoing dispute. ]] 00:41, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Disagree. A wider case may have had discussion on the user's talk page. Deleting it now may compromise evidence to be presented in the case. I wouldn't support deleting his talk page. And, also note that the main problem with deleting talk pages is that the main contributors to them aren't the user himself, but rather other users, whose contribs you're deleting. – ]] 00:44, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Once again, why should an ongoing dispute override ]? ]] 00:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I haven't seen the case itself, only that it's been brought before AC as a request. If this user is not directly involved as one side of the dispute ''alone'' (note emphasis), it's not far to the case to remove evidence. – ]] 00:50, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :(edit conflict)I have done everything except the User talk page. On ] it says ''Delete your user and user talk subpages''. That wording is a little obscure, not entirely sure wether that means the user talk page may be deleted or not. ]] 00:39, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Back on the talk page, they: | |||
| ::I went ahead and deleted the user talk pages - it will at least stop the harassment that the user is experiencing. If the edits are necessary for arbcom, they have the ability to look at the deleted edits anyway. Should the user continue to edit, his pages will, of course, be undeleted. <font color="DarkGreen">]</font><sup>]</sup> 00:43, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| * by replying to my vote | |||
| :::See above. It's right now not a full case yet. Evidence may need to be presented that was on the user's talk page. Can't support a talk deletion while the case is still being presented. – ]] 00:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| * | |||
| ::::Is there still a case if they have left? ]] 00:50, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *Bludgeoned another editor as well | |||
| :::::Leaving does not necessarily end a case. The history should be undeleted. If there is vandalism, you can protect the page. ] 00:52, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *Collapsed their bludgeoning with a close note that they agree (with themself?) that their comments were {{tq|more than necessary after taking a second look}} | |||
| :::::It appears so. Is their involvement in the dispute important now they have left? ]] 00:53, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I haven't seen the case myself, but it is possible that the case was not solely against this user. However, if there has been evidence which could be of use, in the history of the talk pages, then you're compromising the case. – ]] 00:58, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Having read the case as it is so far, the user appears to be a small part of an ongoing dispute for which the arbitration was called. However, the request for arbitration has not even been accepted yet, and there is no guarantee that it will be. ]] 01:01, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::And there may be diffs from the user's talk page that are needed to present a case for such a case in the first place. With the talk page deleted the whole case is compromised. – ]] 01:03, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Just recently I noticed they | |||
| A comment from an uninvolved user. This is a tough one. Chacor has made some good points here, and so has Cowman109. If I was an admin involved in a situation similar to this, I would probably have tried to get consensus here first for deleting a user talk page before doing it. --]<sup>]</sup> 00:54, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :When someone leaves in the middle of a dispute you have to be careful that they may not have really left. Socks or a resumption on this account may occur. I doesn't hurt to wait a few days to see what will happen, even if there is no active Arb case. A user talk page is a community shared page much more so than a user page or subpages. Right to Vanish can be abused. ] 01:04, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Yes, I think a certain four-capital-lettered user asked for his pages to be deleted a while back, but is still actively editing... – ]] 01:06, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| '''So I warned them to stop bludgeoning on their talk page''' | |||
| ::::The nature of the user request and the reference above to harassment suggest there may be aspects of this matter that should not be discussed on-wiki. Cowman109 is an Arbitration Committee Clerk and I am sure that he will be sensitive to any issues raised by the pendency of a proposed ArbCom case. ] 01:07, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Right to Vanish is not really an Arbitration issue. Please check ] for the current list of clerks (though Cowman has been doing a good job of helping out). ] 01:22, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| In the edit note, they: | |||
| Nice consensus. I am requesting that the talk pages and archives be restored and locked. This was an attempt to pre-empt arbitration and it looks like it worked. ] status on wikipedia is not material. If he/she wants to leave that is his/her choice. However, this user has been involved in a protracted dispute that has involved numerous other editors, and the content of the user's talk page is pertinent to the discussion. After the arbitration - if it is even accepted - I think the page should only then be blanked. - ] 01:11, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *Again tried to intimidate me because of their status as an experienced editor {{tq|As someone who is still rather inexperienced you should not be attempting to warn experienced editors like me.}} | |||
| :I'd second an undelete/blank/protect for the sake of arbcom evidence. Someone can add a request that arbcom deletes the page when the case is complete. ---] <sup>(]/])</sup> 01:27, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I encourage anyone to undelete the page if they'd like - I won't mind, but personally I see nothing that makes me think his talk page is necessary for the arbitration request (and you're not really supposed to be giving that much evidence on the request page anyway, but merely supposed to be showing there exists a dispute). The user has plenty of edits in other areas, and it would seem that the focus of the dispute lies in the article of the arbitration case anyway so I don't see how his talk page is relevant. <small> Oh, and I'm not an arbcom clerk, in response to Newyorkbrad, but just one of many volunteers who try to help out.</small> <font color="DarkGreen">]</font><sup>]</sup> 02:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *Cast aspersions and threatened me with a block {{tq|Your comment here is grossly uncivil and if you ever comment like this again you will be the one considered for a block.}} | |||
| :::Hi, I am the editor who removed the "speedy" tags from the user's talk page, so perhaps a comment from me will be useful. First, I don't think that there is a ''significant'' amount of evidence that would be unavailable to parties to the arbitration. There are two principle editors on one side of the arbitration. The user who has left Misplaced Pages, and a user who is associated with numerous links. Although the users collaborated, I think the issues in arbitration are quite different between them. Long and short, I did not remove the "speedy" tags because I feared deletion of evidence. (Of course, I did not file the arbcom case, so I do not pretend to be speaking for anyone else -- others may disagree). | |||
| : | |||
| :::Having explained that I was not worried about loss of evidence, I feel a need to explain my motivations. At the time that I removed the "speedy" tags, I was unaware that the user was intending to leave Misplaced Pages. I was sensitized to seeing the speedy tag on his talk page from a previous interaction. On a previous occassion, the user had a puppetmaster tag on his user page. My understanding is that before a user or talk page is speedied, the deleting admin should check to see if a) the page has been editted by other users, and b) whether there are warnings on the page that ought to be preserved. For better or worse, it appeared to me that the admin who deleted his page on that occasion did not notice that this user had first deleted his warning tag, and then added the speedy tag. I understand that in such situations, users may "lose their cool". Further, the user made a declaration that he would not use sockpuppets. At that point I thought it appropriate to let the matter drop. However, I ''was'' sensitized, and worried that we were seeing a repeat. When I learned that the user planned to leave Misplaced Pages, I had no interest in preventing his pages from being deleted. | |||
| *Casting aspersions and threatening me with a block again {{tq| | |||
| :::I hope that someone may find these comments useful. Sincerely, --] <font color = "blue"><sup>]</sup></font> 03:10, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Posting that WP:SHOUTING on my talk page is grossly uncivil and unwarranted and will get you blocked the next time you do that.}} | |||
| *And again attempted to intimidate me because of their status as an experienced editor {{tq|But you are in absolutely no position to attempt to enjoin me from further participation in that process. You do not understand the policies and guidelines you're trying to warn me about; don't pretend that you do (especially with respect to WP:OWN).}} | |||
| *And again, cast more unsupported aspersions in an uncivil manner {{tq|Coming to my talk page unprompted and without the other user's involvement is crossing the line to you harassing me. Cut it out.}} | |||
| This has been an upsetting experience for me. Perhaps I am too sensitive to edit on wikipedia.] (]) 12:19, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| You're probably right. As long as someone can resurrect the talk pages if it becomes an issue later, I don't foresee it being necessary unless it gets really protracted. Probably should establish some sort of protocol for such instances though.- ] 02:56, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :After leaving making this post, I noticed @] also left a comment ''about'' me, casting even more aspersions in a thread I started on @]'s talk page that had absolutely nothing to do with @]: | |||
| We frequently get these people claiming that they are leaving for good in the middle of an RfA, who, lo and behold, after the RfA has been closed because they are gone, come back and start the same behavior all over again. PLEASE do not close the RfA. ]|] 05:47, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :{{tq|This user needs mentorship as they are flying too close to the sun. The comment I just removed from my talk page and the one I left them at User talk:Delectopierre#Stop suggests that I am not the most effective one to convey that to them. My participation in the RM isn't that unusual and I consider their comments highly condescending and, now, aggressive to the point that I will want to see them blocked if they do it again.}} ] (]) 12:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Indeed. I believe all the arbs are sysops as well, so deleting the pages should not significantly hinder that process. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 09:33, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Both users are right: Jasper Deng when they say, "I am not the most effective one to convey that to them", and Delectopierre when saying, "Perhaps I am too sensitive". ] (]) 14:01, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :My impression, based on this brouhaha: you are easily offended, but at the same time keen to tell off others. Bad combination. While Jasper Deng dislikes being harrangued on his talk page, but at the same time tacks unrelated complaints about you onto conversations not involving him. Bad combination. From the unassailable heights of my own moral perfection, I suggest you both simmer down and get back to editing. --<span style="font-family:Courier">]</span> <small>(] · ])</small> 14:07, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Review of an article deletion == | |||
| ====Proposal==== | |||
| {{archive top|result=The correct venue for this is ]. ] 14:27, 11 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| I have a proposal that I believe addresses ] and the need for evidence for the RfArb. I suggest that the talk page and archives be undeleted and then moved to an appropriate sub page(s), eliminating all redirects created in the process. (no suggestion as to where they should be moved to - but if the RfArb case was taken on then a sub page of the case page would be appropriate). When the RfArb is finished or if it is rejected then the pages get moved back to their original position and redeleted. The purpose of the move is to ] and honour the right to vanish. The username would no longer be associated with the content of the pages, any more than any other comments he has made on other talk pages would be. The purpose of re-moving the pages to their original position and then re-deleting them would be to have them availiable for revival in the right spot in the event that the retirement was not permanent. All these actions could be performed by any of the sysopped RfArb clerks, or if that idea is rejected, I would be happy to take them on myself as long as someone notifies me of the outcome of the case. I would have his talk page and user page on watch, looking for signs of editing (ie other users questioning edits) and a note in the RfArb case to be notified of the close or rejection of the case. Thoughts? ]] 10:10, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Hello, I will like to request a review on the deletion of the article on Prisca Abah ] (]) 14:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{ab}} | |||
| :I suggest leaving the situation at status quo for now (i.e. deleted). Evidence of Hanuman's bad behavior toward others (if such evidence exists) will be mainly on their talk pages, the mediation pages associated with the case, and the articles themselves. Assuming Hanuman's talk page contains evidence of other editors' bad behavior toward him, it can be restored or examined by the arbitrators if the case is accepted. ] 12:11, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Hanuman may be only tangentally involved in this case. My concern is that we are accepting all this at face value when in the past there have been users who have used Right to Vanish to game their situation. We also don't want to start expecting Arbitrators to be the gatherers of facts in a case. We need to let involved parties find their evidence to present where ever they can find it, and not tie their hands in building their case. ] 13:20, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Question - if someone invokes the right to vanish (sounds like a magical spell), insisting that their talk pages and user pages get deleted, is their account also blocked? ]<i>::</i><small>]</small> 17:02, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::No. User talk pages are not deleted. ] ] 17:13, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Actually, user talk pages are quite frequently deleted. The argument that a user's warnings and history of problems needs to remain visible only applies if they don't stay vanished. (I used to be more hard line on this, but I have come to really dislike the ] mentality that some folks have.) In this particular case the talk pages will probably be undeleted if the case is accepted. I'm not convinced they are needed in order to make a case ''for'' acceptance. ] 17:29, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I think we have to distinguish between a vandal's talk page full of nothing but warnings and unproductive messages (which we can delete without a second thought), and that of a long time user who has had much discussion about articles and other productive Misplaced Pages issues over many months (which is the case here). The history of the page has value to the project (and since he used page move archiving, so do his talk page archives). It's about having the history, the top page can be blanked and protected (this is not about the removing warnings issue or anything like that) ] 17:40, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ====Question and comments==== | |||
| Please pardon my ignorance, but doesn't ] being a meta-directive, trump en.wikipedia concerns? I've read through the meta page and the meatball page linked from it, and IMO you are treading on very treacherous ground here. The ability to vanish is listed as a "right", not a privilege. In my opinion, it should not be conditional in any way. Perhaps mediawiki foundation needs to clarify the talk page issue on ], but with it being ambiguous, and with talk page deletion having been done for other users recently (e.g. ]), it would seem to me that if you are going to undelete H.D.'s talk page, you'd need to undelete every other vanished user's talk page for consistency. | |||
| In any case, as someone also involved in the issue, I don't think H.D.'s talk pages are significant in any way to the arbitration request. He was occasionally quite rude - on other people's talk pages. His edit history is still available, and I beleive the contention is that he kept restoring links after other editor's deleted them. I also believe that both sides believed that they were in the right, i.e. it was not a case of intentional vandalism. Anything that was said to him on his talk page about the situation is most likely also brought up on one of the meditation pages. And ] has been keeping "files" on her user subpages about all of her percieved "enemies", so she should be able to answer precisely what information might be needed from H.D.'s talk page. (Interestingly enough, ] keeps "files" on his "enemies" in the very same way as ] does). It seems like perhaps some people want to go on a fishing expedition on a user who decided that his involvement in Mattisse's manipulations was a waste of his time. That doesn't seem right to me. | |||
| Finally, please do kick this up to the MetaWiki level. I would like to know definitively what exactly ''I'' could expect if in the future I should want to avail myself of the Right to vanish. Currently, based on observation, I believe that I could expect to have all my user space pages deleted, including talk pages and archives. If this is not the case, I think Mediawiki Foundation should be clear and explicit about it on ]. ] (]) 18:23, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Right to vanish is not an official policy but a general internet principle which we apply in a way that we try to balance the competing interests of this project. Just because an essay is written on Meta instead of enwiki does not confer to it more authority. See ] to see what is our official policy (which leaves tremendous leeway to each project on the Right to Vanish issue). ] 18:47, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :If the concern is harrassment of HD after he leaves, then '''blank and protect''' his talk page. Nobody can leave messages, but the history is still available if people need to review discussions or other information (whether to provide diffs for an arbitration, or for other constructive purposes). If HD believes that there is information in the history which compromises his privacy, then by all means he should ask an admin to delete the appropriate revisions of the page. ](]) 18:51, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| The page :] describes removal of personal information (real name, address, political views etc.) that are pretty far short of deleting an entire set of user and talk pages on request, that are of interest in an ongoing dispute and that don't all contain personal information. It also explicitly says info is deleted "provided it is not needed for administrative reasons (which are generally limited to dealing with site misuse issues)" (IMO that would include an arb case, if there's a legitimate need for the material). | |||
| I have some knowledge of the former contents of HD's talk page and don't remember any personal material on it but (from what I saw) it also wasn't obvious there was important evidence on it. I don't see a compelling reason to undelete the page at the moment, though that may change if the arb case progresses. I think Matisse should work this out with the Arb clerks, as Thatcher131 suggested . | |||
| They can undelete it or grant private and/or redacted access to Matisse as appropriate. To Matisse: try leaving Thatcher131 a talk message or sending an email (you can send email through the "email this user" link at ]). | |||
| IMO, HD is not the most important participant in that dispute. ] 10:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ===Other people's contributions=== | |||
| The whole thing about deleting user talk pages (and talk pages in general) is that they also consist of ''other'' people's contributions. If I have a long and involved and productive discussion with someone on their talk page, I don't want that discussion to vanish with that person. I want my contributions, which might contain important material on my thoughts on certain issues, to be preserved somewhere. Should I really have to keep a list of all the user talk pages I've edited and then 'rescue' my edits if the page gets deleted? ] 11:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :There are (at least) two valid issues here. On the one hand the possible usefulness of previous comments by the user and/or others and on the other hand the possibly embarrassing comments of the user and/or others. Historically on user talk pages the balance of those two possibilities has always tipped in favor of the individual user. For instance, users are allowed to blank messages left for them... archiving is favored, but not required. That, of course, makes it more difficult to locate past conversations... requiring a search of the history instead of just browsing the page/subpage. We have a speedy deletion criteria allowing 'user subpages' to be deleted upon request... which is described as including things like 'User talk:Username/Archive 1'. The 'right to vanish' deletion is just another aspect of this. All of these things make it more difficult to access past comments when there are legitimate reasons to do so... but I think that's preferable to keeping things users don't want in their user-space. If a user has done something they are embarrassed about we allow them to delete it... we can still get it back if we have to, but there should be no reason for it to be publicly available (even if just in the history). Ditto nasty or embarrassing things said ''to'' the user... people shouldn't be able to drag those up to harass them elsewhere. If we want to retain comments made to user talk pages then that needs a systematic change to a number of Misplaced Pages policies, but I think it is better to just proceed with the understanding that comments on user talk pages are potentially more ephemeral than anything else on Misplaced Pages. If it is really of long term importance move it to an article or project space talk page. --] 14:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Deleting a page is nothing like archiving or blanking. With archiving or blanking, the contribs are still found in the commenter's own contribs and in the page history, and do not need an admin request. With deletion, the contribs simply disappear unless the user keeps a separate list of users they have talked to (a list which would otherwise be in the contribs) and then if the user is experienced enough to know they can be restored at all they can ask an admin. Also, if Right to vanish allowed someone to simply request deletion of the user talk page, that would not simply be "ephemeral", that would be instantaneous. This case is a somewhat good example, where there is apparently an active Arbcom case that could be related to comments on the talk page. If you want to delete the talk page of a ''banned'' or ''permanently vanished'' user after a year, that may be okay, but that's not what your interpretation of a right to vanish would mean. —]→] • 22:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Also, what do you mean we should just accept that user talk page comments would be more ephemeral? With everything else on Misplaced Pages, comments are permanent except for deleted articles where the comments are not relevant to creating or having a legitimate article. Should I simply not talk on other user's talk pages? Or should I duplicate every comment I leave on a separate page of my own, thus defeating the purpose of deleting those comments in the first place and demonstrating even more clearly that those comments are not his to delete? If the vanishing user has a comment he wants to get rid of, that comment could possibly be arranged to be removed. If someone ''else'' leaves a somehow embarassing comment, the vanishing user has no right over it; if appropriate it can be deleted under a no personal attacks policy, which applies anywhere. —]→] • 22:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::What's more, it would even be legal to simply copy his talk page entirely and save it somewhere else; his comments are under the GFDL. If user talk pages were to be ephemeral, one could and should simply keep a separate record of all conversations—but that's the purpose of the original talk page in the first place! —]→] • 22:25, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I agree entirely with Centrx's points. I also have to admit that it took me over a year to realise that my contribs to deleted pages were not appearing in my contributions list. I was partially misled by the availability (now withdrawn) of a tool to list a user's edits to deleted pages. Now, instead, I watchlist every page I edit, make regular updates to an off-line copy of my contributions list, look for redlinks in a list of pages on my watchlist, and compare my current contributions list to my offline list to find what contributions have disappeared. If the edit summary indicated a long essay or comment, I might try and retrieve it through an admin, but trying to explain all this would be rather tedious to say the least. This is also why I avoid trying to improve articles at AfD, or contributing to the talk pages of said articles, until the AfD is over. Writing on something attached to something that then gets deleted feels rather inefficient. ] 00:35, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Um... ok. When a comment I've made gets deleted, if I even notice, I shrug and go on with what I was doing. In the extreme hypothetical that I absolutely had to get it back for some reason I know it can always be undeleted so... seems less than crucial to me. In short, I don't see alot of value in having every past comment easily and immediately available... just doesn't seem important. That balanced against, 'annoy people by making stuff they want to get rid of readily available to everyone'... seems like a clear case for allowing deletion. You two apparently place ALOT more value on 'easily available records', but... can you point to a case where it has been more than hypothetically important? When have we ''ever'' 'needed' some edit and it has just been terribly difficult to get it back? --] 12:23, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::It's just the general prinicple of the thing. I don't normally delete things that I have written, and I like to keep track of what I have said and done. It would seem courteous to allow people to keep copies of what they have written, or at least to make it much clearer that their contribs list is not complete. I would have no problems with such pages being deleted if I could in general, at any time, see a list of my deleted contribs (the reason it is not done at the moment, I think, is because the way it was set up, anyone could see anyone's deleted contribs - that would not be a problem if viewing was restricted to the user only - similar to how only the user can see their watchlist). My contribs are what I wrote, so what is the problem in letting me access them, even if only to make a copy before they are re-deleted? I realise that this system can be abused by those wanting to paste back in deleted content that should be kept off Misplaced Pages, but most POV-pushers do this anyway, and are stopped by the normal means. ] 12:38, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::And a more specific point. Edits to the blurbs of category pages (the bits at the top) are deleted when categories are renamed, as categories are not moved like article pages are, but are deleted and a new page made. These are not 'ephemeral' talk page edits, but are integral parts of the encyclopedia where contribution history is, if not completely lost, made far more difficult to track down (and nearly impossible if the deleting admin does not mention the CfD page or date), though using "what links here" for the deleted category or the newly created category usually works in tracking down the debate and the deleted page where the contributions history is "kept". ] 12:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == User:Canuckster == | |||
| {{User3|Canuckster}} seems to be harassing ]. See ] for the latest in a long line of incidents. ] will give you some background. I am rather concerned that this will be a waste of everybody's time and energy, and be unnecessarily demoralising for Sarah, who I think is one of our better admins. Canuckster's case seems to be that Sarah ought to apologise to him for saying he was anti-American, when even a very casual trawl of his contributions revealed . It seems to me Sarah was quite correct in what she has done and does not deserve to be treated like this. In the spirit of , I thought I would raise the matter here, as my intervention on the user's talk page has seemingly failed to produce any real response. | |||
| If my suspicions about this account being a sockpuppet of Ottawaman turn out to be unfounded, I will be the first to apologise. Meantime, I propose a community ban of Canuckster, and as speedy as possible a resolution of the sockpuppet question. --] 08:17, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Agree on all counts, my attempts to support Sarah have not worked either, it seems, as he persists... – ]] 08:20, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I endorse the suggestion of a community ban, as this is blatant trolling. '''] <sup>] · ] ]</sup>''' 08:28, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Support, this is harrassment, and it's pretty obvious he's a sock. ]|] 08:33, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Some of his discourse has been bordering on legal threats. (Throwing around the words "libel" & "slander".) An indef block might be in order. ---] <sup>(]/])</sup> 08:41, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Just for informational purposes, a checkuser has been run; a conclusion of sockpuppetry is probable based on the technical evidence. <span style="font-family: Verdana">] ]</span> 09:01, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :OK, I've indef. blocked him. ]|] 09:07, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Honestly, I think a block would be in order even if he is not a sock. This is just obvious harassment. -- ] <small>(])</small> 09:19, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::I still think it'd be good to establish concensus for a community-based block/ban, as a failsafe just in case. Hence, I urge people to keep giving input as to the merits of a community ban or block. '''] <sup>] · ] ]</sup>''' 09:21, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Support the block per harrasment reasons. ]] 09:23, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Support indef block, clear trolling -- ] 09:38, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I think this person's behavior shows a resemblence to Hollow Wilerding/Eternal Equinox/Velten: he has some kind of obsession with ] - he probably thinks that he can somehow "own" that article by edit warring, attacks, etc. Furthermore, Ottawaman claimed to "quit" , but since this has now been disproven above, I think it is highly likely that he will (at least attempt to) come back under a new identity and begin this whole cycle over again. | |||
| On the other hand, however, I'm not exactly sure if a community ban is necessarily needed at this point. Since I noticed that the vast majority of this person's edits are to ], I'd suggest the following: (1) restriction to only one registered account; (2) ban from editing ] and related articles, and (3) prohibition from interacting with Sarah Ewart & other users he harasses. ]<font color="green">]</font>] 09:45, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :i could support that, but then there would be no ''raison d'etre'' for this person. ]|] 09:54, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Support community ban. <font face="Verdana">]<sup>'']]''</sup></font> 14:18, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| FWIW, I would prefer a community ban over restricted editing. Eternal Equinox at least tried to improve articles. Ottawaman, on the other hand, has shown a singular focus on smearing Michael Ignatieff. Some of his accounts have even been used for vandalism (eg ). I don't believe his contributions this far justify allowing him to edit at all and I don't think that he will honor any restrictions anyway. ''']''' 22:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :: I am not an admin, but have contributed to the Ignatieff article for the past while and watched the article closely even longer (I have an interest in human rights and humanitarian law). For the longest time these sockpuppets (Ottawaman / Neutralizer / 64.229.*.* / 67.71.*.* / 70.48.*.* / Etc) often "contributed" badly written POV edits on the article and bullied other editors with accusations of "sanitization" or being "PAID PRO-IGGY ORGANIZERS" when balance was attempted in content. The sockpuppets were easily identified by their editing style: pov plus multiple reverts with capitalized accusations such as "REVERTING PRO-IGGY EDITS!!". Some edits contributed by these puppets were, as Sarah points out, clearly smears, such as the instance where some ridiculous content about "Ignatieff" popping up in the "Yahoo searches" for "pornography" was added; this was not mere vandalism, each of the above sock puppets contributed to the discussion attempting to feign consensus to have the content added. On another occasion, a story was fabricated on Wikinews and used as a source to add content about Ignatieff's private life, including his divorce and children. Outrageously, one editor (Joel Bastedo) who attempted to stop the smear was accused of working on the Ignatieff campaign! This sort of thing continued for months until Sarah had the courage to do something about the abuse and she has apparently suffered accordingly. I commend her for that. This sort of conduct really undermines the credibility and useability of wikipedia; it must be dealt with effectively. I can't see how a simple edit restriction would do the trick. - ] 16:45, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::The above comments do not address the edits actually made by Canuckster at the Ignatieff article; Perhaps the discussion could address these edits which are not disputed as to origin. | |||
| http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Michael_Ignatieff&action=history | |||
| (cur) (last) 15:15, 16 December 2006 Canuckster (Talk | contribs) (→Accusations of Condoning Torture) | |||
| (cur) (last) 15:01, 16 December 2006 Canuckster (Talk | contribs) (→Accusations of Condoning Torture) | |||
| (cur) (last) 14:59, 16 December 2006 Canuckster (Talk | contribs) (→Accusations of Condoning Torture) | |||
| (cur) (last) 14:46, 16 December 2006 Canuckster (Talk | contribs) (→Accusations of Condoning Torture) | |||
| (cur) (last) 14:46, 16 December 2006 Canuckster (Talk | contribs) m (added another citation) | |||
| (cur) (last) 14:35, 16 December 2006 Canuckster (Talk | contribs) (→Accusations of Condoning Torture) | |||
| (cur) (last) 14:34, 16 December 2006 Canuckster (Talk | contribs) (→Accusations of Condoning Torture) | |||
| (cur) (last) 14:19, 16 December 2006 Canuckster (Talk | contribs) m (→The lesser evil approach) | |||
| (cur) (last) 14:18, 16 December 2006 Canuckster (Talk | contribs) (→The lesser evil approach) | |||
| I personally think they are very well cited additions to the article. ] 19:41, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :. – ]] 19:48, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::and I smell ] deflection by a biased party. ] 20:52, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == ] (Again) == | |||
| Before anyone goes anywhere Please see the ] where I explained how a user has been repeatedly stalking on my edits and opening up disputes that are most silly at times (]). Well yesterday was no different and it looks like that the previous comments by the admin had no effect on him. The only thing that did change was that ] is now not the only policy that KPbIC is violating. Now he is using his open vigilantism (even though he is not an admin) to challenge the ] policies for the English name of ], and combining the two into one: , . | |||
| Like I said before, this user has his own understanding of what wikipedia is and with a silly alibi (it does make one chuckle reading his explanations on the archived topic, the refrences to the big and evil "russifiers") he is openly stalking and harassing me and other users and completely disregarding wikipedia guidelines. Like I said before, I do not wish to commence the suggested time-consuming ], hence why I once again ask that someone talk some sense into this disruptive user.--] 14:29, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::One again, ], I'm asking you to leave your Russification spirit out of Misplaced Pages, and start to do something constructive. Dispite ] and ], you continue to devote yourself to the useless activity of substituting each and every instance of ] to ], as you did yesterday (, and ). Not challenging ], which prescribes to use the most common English name for a title of the article, I'd like to remind you that ] is also a (1) well-established, (2) official Ukrainian, and (3) self-identifying name of the city, which redirects to ]. There is no need to substitute each and every instance of Kyiv to Kiev, unless you want to be involved in trolling, harassment, disrespect of other contributors, or being uncivil. (The same applies to ]/]). --] 23:18, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Well I'll just link to my response on the Russification charge (which has no basis) in the archive. However what you self-interpret as right and the vigilante stance you take is hardly acceptable to wikipedia. Once again I am telling you to back off, write articles and leave other users alone. Kiev is an '''ENGLISH''' spelling of the city that was decided upon by a lengthy consensus on the talk page, and hence, by wikipolicies that you have never read, it applies to the whole of en-wiki! So drop off the stalking, the harrassment and the vigilantism, as you are no admin to make such decisions, before I go through the ]. So far not a single admin told me that what I am doing is '''wrong!''', and I do not need an alibi such as insulted national pride to base my edits on. --] 23:50, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::And here is today's ] activity: , --] 23:36, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Found undoubtedly by stalking on my edits... however at the same time forgetting that this activity included de-stubbing two articles, one that is ironically set in Ukraine...--] 23:50, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Found by ''checking'' your edits... Please familiarize yourself with ] on what substitutes ''stacking'' before making groundless accusations. On the contrary, your edits like or do violate ], and bring disruption to the project. Over the last year, you have been repeatedly asked by many contributors to abandon such activity. --] 00:24, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::This above is a classic example of his disregard for wikipedia, sigh, here we go ] is a '''guideline''', whilst ] is a '''policy'''. Now quoting from ]: | |||
| * <small>A ''']''' is any page that is: (1) actionable and (2) authorized by consensus. Guidelines are not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception. Amendments to a guideline should be discussed on its talk page, not on a new page — although it's generally acceptable to edit a guideline to improve it. People are sometimes tempted to call a vote on a guideline, but this is a bad idea because it polarizes the issue (see ] for details). Instead, a guideline is made by listening to objections and resolving them. | |||
| ** <small>A ''']''' or ''']''' is a specific kind of guideline, related to proper naming, or the way articles should be written. | |||
| * <small>A ''']''' is similar to a guideline, only more official and less likely to have exceptions. As with guidelines, amendments should generally be discussed on their talk pages, but are sometimes forked out if large in scope. One should not generally edit policy without seeking consensus first. | |||
| :::::Conclusion: In a policy vs guideline debate, the latter is defeated, particulary for naming convnentions, otherwise my argument on the viewpoint of Eastern Ukrainians would fully justify a crusade of changing Ukrainian names into Russian...however I, contrary to your misleading belief did come here to do something constructive, (which explains my barnstar count vs yours) and such details are not my priority. However, off the record, I do like to make a positive contribution to wikipedia by giving the correct name, by following the naming conventions '''policy''';)--] 00:38, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == NLP == | |||
| I invite t'committee to scrutinise the following: | |||
| * {{article|Neuro-linguistic programming}} | |||
| * {{user|AlanBarnett}} | |||
| * {{user|Fainites}} | |||
| Also | |||
| * ] (see enforcement log) | |||
| * {{user|Comaze}} | |||
| * {{user|HeadleyDown}} | |||
| I am wondering if we have some socks here, but in any case it looks like the mediators have either left or been sidelined. I don't know what, if anything, to do about this. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 19:31, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Committee? ]|] 20:28, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :: It's faux-] t' is an abbreviation for the; hence "t'committee has decided". Ah'm English, tha knows :-) <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 21:13, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::T'in't int' tin. ]<i>::</i><small>]</small> 10:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Department Store Article Vandal == | |||
| A user who keeps switching between the two IPs ] (]) and ] (]) has been committing persistent sneaky vandalism on the ] article and to a lesser extent against other department store articles. From their edit histories, the two IPs appear to be static ones since the same edits keep coming from them. They've both gotten up to level 4 vandalism warnings in the past few days. The substance of the vandalism is difficult to detect if you, as I, are not familiar with the subject. If, however, you compare the citations that he/she has falsified to the actual citations in the article, you'll see that the information he/she is posting is incorrect. This person has never complained about our constant reverting of him/her either in edit summaries or the talk page, so I have no idea what his/her agenda might be. I've asked for semi-protection of the article and was denied. I posted ] on Misplaced Pages:Administrator intervention against vandalism and was again denied. So here I am, asking for help. Thank you very much.--] <sup>(]|])</sup> 20:00, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Stand by, looking into it... ] 20:22, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Looking at the history of {{la|Lord & Taylor}}, it's really quite clear-cut: two IPs regularly vandalising this article even after final warnings. I'd give the more recent IP a short block and temporarily semiprotect the article, but as some other admins have apparently declined to ... what do you others think? ] 20:28, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I don't think it would be a good idea to semi-protect if there are only two IPs vandalising, I would just block the IPs for a day if they continue. ] <sup>]</sup> 20:40, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::I'd also block both IPs, starting with a 24 hour block. <font color="#0000FF">]</font> 20:51, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Ok, I'm blocking the recently active {{IPVandal|72.82.212.127}} for 24h, just message me if the vandalism continues. ] 21:13, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Thank you, I will.--] <sup>(]|])</sup> 05:51, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == User talk pages used for password swapping?? == | |||
| I just deleted the talk page of {{User5|LilSWIMMY lol}} (see ]), which only consisted of notes like "My friend just got on her username is Cindy1234 and her password is 123456abc". The user has no other contributions. This is obviously not what talk pages are for, but is there anything else we can or need to do here other than delete this page? ] ] 22:38, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Well, assuming you haven't already, you could block all of the accounts listed under the "Public accounts" section of the ]. —] <font color="#C46100" size="1">]</font> 23:26, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Good idea. I could only log in to one of the claimed accounts and have blocked it. ] ] 09:56, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::You logged into someone else's account? I know you did it to test whether the password was real, but still, that feels wrong somehow... ] 00:39, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Offensive username == | |||
| * {{vandal|DevilsSin666X}}, per ] policy. ]'']'' (]) 23:55, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| : just for future reference - what's offensive about it? --] 00:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::It's probably unnecessarily inflammatory towards religious folk who really have nothing better to do than get offended by certain numbers. --] 00:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::I tend to agree... I'm not religious, but I just blocked a "jesus", "DevilsSin666" is little better. Blocked. ] <small>]</small> 00:31, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :FYI, Jesus is a common hispanic name. ] 16:26, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::"Baby jesus" isn't, Trollderella. ] <small>]</small> 21:54, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Cyde has the right explanation, but I'm not impressed by his personal attack: "... who really have nothing better to do than get offended ...". Misplaced Pages should have a ], right? As of 00:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC), Devils' block log doesn't show that he's been blocked yet. Thank you. ]'']'' (]) 00:43, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::He has been, I fixed the block log. NPOV applies to articles, though ] and ] could be relevant. ] <small>]</small> 00:38, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: Good. BTW, I was referring to the username as being not-], not the user's behavior, which was under ]. And please, I'm getting a little sick of coming here, reporting a username which is POV, and having to answer 3 questions before it is finally blocked. Thanks for blocking it, anyway. ]'']'' (]) 00:43, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::You don't think a little oversight and discussion is a good idea? We ''are'' talking about indefinitely blocking an account, after all. That shouldn't just be automatic; you should expect discussion. --] 03:00, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Just to be clear, I wasn't personally attacking anyone (my comments certainly weren't addressed to anyone in this thread). I'm just pissed off at hyper-religious folk in general who go insane over a simple number. --] 02:58, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Personbally, I wouldn't have blocked that user name indefinitely. Unless it is flagrantly offensive (such as ] or ]), or an obvious sneaky impersenation of an existing user, ] suggests maybe trying to talk to the person first and suggesting the change their username. That is clearly not happening enough. There are too many admins blocking for usernames when they should try actually communicating. ]<i>::</i><small>]</small> 10:56, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Yes, the tendancy to issue indefinate blocks as a first resort, even when policy advises against it, is disturbing. ] 16:29, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Indef Block == | |||
| I just blocked {{vandal|70.48.205.239}} for making legal threats on quite a few user pages, see ]. Posting this notice for review. --<font color="#06C">]</font> 00:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :This IP posted on the talkpages of almost all of the active ArbCom members, and I suspect it might be Canuckster himself (or at best, a meatpuppet). Any thoughts? --<sup>]</sup>''']''' ('']'') 00:42, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::IPs should not be blocked indefinitely, unless they're open proxies. I suggest Trödel shortens the block to a week, or something similarly effective but temporary - otherwise somebody else probably will. --]<sup>]</sup> 00:43, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::This is pretty basic—a different person is going to have this IP tomorrow. Where can we put this information in big, glowing letters for the several admins who appear to have little understanding of Internet technology or Misplaced Pages blocking policy? —]→] • 00:47, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::: I wasn't sure about the policy re IP's figured I could always reduce it - and will - just want to get some more feedback first. I know my IP is leased for 6 months, so a 1-3 mo block does not seem to be out of line, IMHO. --<font color="#06C">]</font> 00:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Well Id say a 1 m block would be more than enough to seee if this user is a serios conributor to WP or not--] 00:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::That would seem to be a waste of effort on your part and liable to failure. It would make more sense to just block it right the first time. Use ]; most IPs on Misplaced Pages are dynamic. —]→] • 01:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Ummm, actually, it's pretty basic that a significant number of IPs are statically assigned, or only semi-dynamically (that is, they stay the same for months on end). I've had the same IP address now for months, so if I was anonymously posting all sorts of threats and harassment and you only blocked me for a week, I could easily continue it again the next week. --] 02:55, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::It is Ottawaman/Canuckster/etc. However, he uses dynamic Bell Sympatico IPs and comes straight back with a new IP soon after being blocked. For this reason, I've always tried to use short blocks. I think even a week long block will have collateral damage. ''']''' 00:56, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::He can just disconnect his modem and get a new IP, possibly right away. You would need to block 70.48.204.0/22 to be effective. —]→] • 01:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Well, he just used a completely different IP address, so we may have a problem here, or he may be utilizing open proxies now.—] (]) 01:17, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Looks to me more like false accusations and uncivil behavior by Ewart followed by abusive cover-up activities by her supporters. Why were her false accusations archived and protected? Even she herself could not provide evidence to support them? ] 19:13, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Sorry,here's the personal attack comments that were archived. | |||
| "I must say that I agree with Guinnog that the downside completely outweighs any minor positive contributions Ottawaman might make. If he was going to become a productive editor, I think he would have done so by now. He has shown here and on Wikinews that he has no interest in following policies and simply has an anti-American, anti-Ignatieff agenda to push. An interesting block log and edits from the same ISP . Sarah Ewart 01:09, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| - | |||
| - I'd like to note that the vicious attack above was entirely unprovoked. Sarah said she would gladly unprotect my user space. She did not. She said above "And I'm warning him now that this is his last chance"; now she says she does not want to give another chance; she accuses me of having an "anti-american agenda" which is a blatant lie and she makes all kinds of other crazy accusations. The anti-american slur is particularly libelous and, these days, a potentially harmful accusation to make. I did say that Ignatieff's allegiance to the US should have been in his article but at most I am anti-Bush foreign policy. Perhaps Sarah thinks Cindy Sheehan is also anti-american. It is shameful that here on Misplaced Pages I am having to defend my political opinions in this way. I came to this noticeboard to ask for help with the userspace protection issue. That has been settled by an admin. who unprotected the space. I then tried to remove this incident report that I placed here but was told I could not. If Sarah (or anyone else) wishes to be making ongoing and false accusations I am willing to engage in dispute resolution but I do not think this is the place. In the meantime I hope her supporters here will encourage her not to continue with the libelous namecalling. Canuckster 02:46, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| - I didn't unprotect your pages because you didn't actually ask me until after I had gone offline and when I came back and received your message, it had already been done. I never said I would "gladly unprotect user space". What I said was I would have if you'd bothered to ask me. Please stop twisting my words. As for whether you get a second chance, I'm leaving that in the hands of the community. As for you being anti-American, the evidence is in your edits. Sarah Ewart 03:25, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| - Please show us my "anti-american" edits. I'll call that bluff. Canuckster 03:29, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| - I've no interest whatsoever in what you want and I'm not going to be trawling through the contribs of your various accounts for diffs. You've wasted more than enough time over the last six months and I'm not wasting anymore on you. The edits made by your various sock puppets have indicated a deliberate intent to smear Michael Ignatieff and a decided anti-American slant, something which contributed to you being community banned from Wikinews. Sarah Ewart 03:42, 17 December 2006 (UTC)" ] 19:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Apart from putting "new user" on his userpage and talkpage, these are User:TomBlackstonez's first edits. ] 19:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yea, pointed that out above. Bloody socks. – ]] 19:49, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::] deflections aren't helpful to the discussion guys. ] 21:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| =={{Vandal|Roman Dog Bird}}== | |||
| Based on the recent edits from this account, ] qualifies for blocking as a vandalism-only account. Despite the extensive vandalism from this account, and despite the fact that ] is now fully protected primarily to prevent further vandalism by this particular account, ] the report regarding this account from ] with the summary "rm Roman Dog Bird, inactive". However, since vandalism by this account isn't reported in a timely manner, it will never be blocked unless it is blocked when it is inactive. Furthermore, it seems far preferable to block the accounts responsible for vandalism than to fully protect articles, such as ], due to vandalism. ] 01:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :It is not a vandal-only account, there are some valid contributions despite all the vandalism. Warnings are fair enough, and in fact the user hasn't vandalized since the last warning. --<strong><font style="color: #082567">]</font>]<font style="color: #082567">]</font></strong> 02:11, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Of course ] hasn't vandalized since his last warning -- but only because he keeps receiving more and more warnings instead of being blocked. He received a test2 on the 15th , a bv on the 15th , at test3 on the on the 16 , and yet another test3 on the 17th . Whatever constructive edits ] has made, they are far outweighed by his extensive vandalism. Since his account is older than 4 days, ] can vandalize semi-protected pages. It would be advisable to block ], to prevent him from engaging in even more vandalism. ] 02:25, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :(Edit conflict, sorry) I would agree with a block in this case. His edits are too far apart for any short term block to affect him in any way. Edits like , , , , , and far outweigh contributions like .—] (]) 02:44, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::The user is clearly causing more damage than benefit, I agree. But still, he abid by the last warning, that makes a block rather unfair and unnecessary atm. I think it's preferable to closely monitor him and block immediately if he vandalizes again.--<strong><font style="color: #082567">]</font>]<font style="color: #082567">]</font></strong> 02:51, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :] might not be blocked immediately after his next act of vandalism. If an editor gives ] yet another test3 after his next act of vandalism, and I request that ] be blocked, say, sixteen hours later, we're going to be back here debating whether ] should actually be blocked, because, after all, he did stop after his last warning, and the account is presently inactive. This sort of nonsense could continue for weeks, unless ] is actually blocked, irrespective whether he presently appears to be active, and whether he has vandalized after his "last" warning. ] 03:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::If this user's misdemeanors are not detected in 16 hours then he probably isn't causing damage enough to have someone on ] notice him. Once again, I reiterate that the user is respecting a last warning that was given to him and therefore a block is unnecessary at this time. Just keep an eye on him, watchlist his talk page and report swiftly further actions. --<strong><font style="color: #082567">]</font>]<font style="color: #082567">]</font></strong> 03:25, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::]'s edits are being noticed and reverted, long before 16 hours. The problem is that editors are simply issuing additional warnings each time he vandalizes, instead of immediately reporting him on ]. ] has been slipping through the cracks for far too long, and should really be blocked indefinitely. ] 03:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Actually, I have put him on the RC channel's blacklist, just so we can see if he continues to edit maliciously. Any first sign, I will contact someone to block him indefinitely for persistant vandalism (if it is necessary).—] (]) 03:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Agreed.--<strong><font style="color: #082567">]</font>]<font style="color: #082567">]</font></strong> 03:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==Indefinite block?== | |||
| One anon user {{IPvandal|24.5.111.44}} dropped on another (apparently moderately useful) anon, {{IPvandal|172.150.25.18}} as its second edit. Now it is just possible that this is an admin who forgot to log in (or block). But if not, it should be dealt with. ] <small>]</small> 01:48, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :My guess would be no, not an admin. 1st edit vandalism and 3rd edit a modification of the resulting vandalism warning .--<strong><font style="color: #082567">]</font>]<font style="color: #082567">]</font></strong> 02:47, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| <div id="Husnock just unblocked himself" /> | |||
| <div id="Block of Husnock" /> | |||
| ==Husnock== | |||
| <small>I have kept these linked sections under separate headings to preserve direct links. --] (]) 05:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC)</small> | |||
| After Thebainer blocked Husnock for a month, Husnock unblocked himself six minutes later, and clained that Thebainer was abusing his admin powers. I don't know who's right or wrong here, since I'm not involved, but I definitely think this needs to be reviewed. ]<font color="green">]</font>] 05:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :A month? For what? Regardless, Husnock should not have unblocked himself. -- ''']''' 05:11, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| {{userlinks|Husnock}} — {{userlinks|Thebainer}} for those who are interested. I'm doing more investigation. --] 05:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I see I've been a little slow in drafting my message - see the section immediately below this one. --] (]) 05:16, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :<small>{{admin|Husnock}}</small> | |||
| A short time ago I ] for a period of one month for ]. The block arises out of made last week by Husnock, that was by ] as threatening. A lengthy discussion ensued on the ]. Several editors and administrators, including myself, made an effort to reach an amicable end to a situation which clearly began with a string of misunderstandings and had snowballed from there. Husnock was resistant to efforts to peacefully resolve the dispute, but ultimately a resolution was reached and the community moved on, regarding the dispute as closed. | |||
| Recently Husnock has been further pursuing the matter by posting an message on his userpage in which he continued to maintain that the situation was something else than a misunderstanding, which is what the community had recognised the incident as. Even allowing Husnock some latitude to post a reasonable message stating his reasons for taking a wikibreak, signalled to me an intention to pursue the dispute and retreat from the peaceful conclusion reached several days ago. After warning Husnock several times that I and several other members of the community consider this pursuit of the issue to constitute ] within the meaning of the blocking policy, Husnock and then replaced the message. As a result, I blocked Husnock as outlined above. | |||
| Husnock has now . I seek the advice of the community on this matter. --] (]) 05:14, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I think an emergency desysopping is in order. Husnock has already left Misplaced Pages "under a cloud" (as they say), and I see no possible good, and great harm, if he is left with the bit. --] 05:18, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Also, Hunsock apparently uploaded dozens, possibly hundreds, of copyvio images, giving them fake "public domain" tags. --] 05:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :What are these images you speak of? -- ''']''' 05:29, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::The image list was made by ], I am one of the mediators trying to figure out what is going on. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 05:31, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::There's a lot of military insignia from a number of different countries marked {{tl|PD-USGov}} that need re-tagging, and a handful of imaginary {{tl|NoRightsReserved}} claims that need cleanup. ] 05:33, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Ah... I suppose it has something to do with ] (redirected from ]). -- ''']''' 05:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :: Although I'm not about to take Husnock's side on unblocking himself, I would like to ask a couple of questions to clarify. | |||
| # If User A claims that User B made a death threat against them when they didn't, and the only response User B gets is that he should apologize (for something he did not do), do admins see it disruptive that someone takes a vast amount of offense at this? | |||
| # The block on Husnock was for disruption. "Blocks for disruption should only be placed when a user is in some way making it difficult for others to contribute to Misplaced Pages." Can someone tell me what exactly he did to make it difficult to contribute to Misplaced Pages with a message on his user page? | |||
| # If several people ''consider'' something to be disruptive, yet others do not, is the fact that ''someone'' finds it disruptive enough to block them for a ''month''? --<font face="Verdana">]]]<small><sup>]|]</sup></small></font> 05:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::I don't quite get question #1. Could you please clarify? --<sup>]</sup>''']''' ('']'') 05:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::: I'm asking what the parameter is for a death threat accusation. If someone accuses me of making a death threat when I didn't, I see that as disruptive. I see that as basically a very vicious form of attack and rules-gaming. If I get upset over this, and people are telling me '''I'm''' in the wrong for getting upset, I want to know if the act of being upset is disruptive, because this is what this is all about. Husnock didn't feel he had made a death threat and was vastly aggravated that no one appeared to care about his side of the story. His being upset lead to the message on his userpage that people appearantly feel is disruptive. --<font face="Verdana">]]]<small><sup>]|]</sup></small></font> | |||
| :I'm kinda new to this husnock stuff, only running into him after nearly deciding not to upload a number of ] images, before I realized the copyrights on the images we had was questionable... he's uploaded huge numbers of images with vague PD tags and from reading the history he's responded with a mixture of evasion, hostility, and implausibility to every question about the origins of the images. The images I asked him about have been available from a collectors website since the mid 90s.. After reviewing the recent history, I'm shocked that he hasn't been permbanned over the copyright issues alone, much less the other problems with hostile behavior. Regardless, self unblocking except in the case of obvious error or testing should simply not be performed. --] 05:42, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :: By all means, desysop him. Unblocking yourself in a dispute is basically slaying your own bit. I'm just wanting a clarification on WHY he was blocked in the first place, because the reasoning above basically reads "I blocked him because I didn't like the message on his userpage".--<font face="Verdana">]]]<small><sup>]|]</sup></small></font> 05:46, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I do not know if the block was warranted, but unblocking oneself is no good. He should have posted on the unblock mailing list or e-mail another admin if the block was not valid. ]<small> <sup>(Need help? ])</sup></small> 05:47, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thats my thought.. the more incorrect a block the easier to get it undone. So there is simply no reason to self-unblock... as a result a self-unblock is disturbing evidence of a lack of self-control which we shouldn't accept from any admin. --] 05:52, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :: Great, but is anyone going to answer my questions on the block or this ''disruption''? --<font face="Verdana">]]]<small><sup>]|]</sup></small></font> 05:55, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::I will - the 'disruption' was for a threat allegedly made by Husnock, which stated "''I would be very careful telling a serving member of the military they cannot edit articles''". Husnock didn't mean it, I believe, in the manner of "''I have access to guns and could kill you if you stop me editing''", he meant it along the line of "''I am serving my country in real life and should get special dispensation''". Neither sentiment is particularly admirable when expressed by an admin. Morwen took the first meaning to be the one Husnock meant. This was unfortunate, and Husnock was asked to clear this up and apologise for any percieved threat, which would have resolved the whole unfortunate mess. | |||
| :::Husnock, instead, threw a hissy fit on this board, trying to get Morwen censured for feeling intimidated (utterly unacceptable). Husnock then refused to apologise until he was asked to by about thirty different people - even if he truly meant it in the second way, an apology would have calmed things down. He then made one of the most evasive apologies I've seen outside of Japanese Prime Ministers, but Morwen accepted the apology, and all was right with the world. Until Husnock decided not just to let things lie, and decided to insist he was right all along (). This was disruptive, and once again not good conduct. I think a month's block for this, however, was very excessive. But Husnock then decided to unblock himself, which is wheel-warring, and, unfortunately, I can only see this ending up at ]. ]<i>::</i><small>]</small> 10:50, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I agree with ] for what it is worth. It's sad this whole situation got to this point over what was a simple misunderstanding that could have been diffused early on with a simple apology. It's even sadder that this is still being discussed when the last AN/I thread was left at a place where everyone could have just chalked it up to a misunderstanding and moved on. I will also say the Dan Rappaport message/Husnock login is a rather curious postscript to this whole thing and unfortunate because it didn't have to get to this point.--] 14:38, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ===Response from Husnock=== | |||
| Gang, what just happened on my user page is absolutely outrageous. Three to four days ago I left editing Misplaced Pages articles due to some serious issues with the site. I have stayed around only to answer talk page messages and participated in an AfD by invite. The issues which caused me to leave the site were a real world Wiki-staking incident where someone sent e-mails out into the real world trying to find out who I was and then sent a semi-threatening e-mal to my wife. The second incident involved a user stating I had threatened her and that she was in fear of her life. That was resolved but still disturbed me greatly. So, I departed editing Misplaced Pages articles and posting a statement as to the reasons. Bainer then arrives and removes these statements from my user page, in effect censoring what I ahd to say. I explained to him these were not personal attacks, but simply my stating why I had left. I also was confused why he removed the Wiki-stalking statement since that didn’t even reference an actual user, just an event that had taken place in the real world. I restore my user page, Bainer removes the material again and then proceeds to block me for an entire month. At this point, not only has he removed material from someone else’s user page but he has blocked another user which he was currently involved in a dispute with, clearly something no one should ever do. My user page is not making personal attacks, it is stating why I am leaving this site. For a user to remove this material and then block me when I had a problem with that is against everything we stand for here. And, P.S.- what is this business about uploading “fake” images? I’ve done no such thing and that is a baseless accusation. Someone who states such a thing without evidence should be doing an investigation as it won’t be impartial. P.s.- to Gaxwell, I answered your query as to where the images came from and gave you a name and phone number to verify this Whats the problem? -] 05:51, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :But why did you unblock yourself? ]<small> <sup>(Need help? ])</sup></small> 05:52, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I know not under what circumstances, atrocious or no, you were blocked, but this I do know: ''you are not to unblock yourself under any circumstances''. It's not that hard to grasp. --<sup>]</sup>''']''' ('']'') 05:54, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Here is the link to the GMaxwell answer . I have no idea why he would say such a mean thing, I answered his question with all civility. Yes, I probably shouldnt have unblocked myself but bainer should not have blocked me in the irst place as he was the other party in a dispute. The proper thing would have been to post here and let others deciede. I apolgize to the Misplaced Pages community for unblocking myself, I saw it as a self defense measure against someone who abused thier powers. -] 05:57, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :With respect to the assertion that I was involved in a dispute with Husnock, people should be aware that I first encountered this matter on ] and attempted, as a neutral intervening party, to achieve a peaceful resolution to the issue. Please see my extensive attempts to mediate the issue last week both ] and ]. --] (]) 06:02, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Forgive my rudeness, but if your noble (no sarcasm intended) attempts at mediation have failed, then we must bring this issue back to the community (aka this board) to discuss alternate solutions. --<sup>]</sup>''']''' ('']'') 06:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Once thebainer engaged in revert warring on Husnock's user page, it was time to bring the issue to the community, because however noble his intent, he no longer had the veneer of a completely neutral third party. ] 07:09, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Largely irrelevant. If Husnock had reaosnable grounds to dispute the block, there are several ways of challenging it or requestign unblocking. Self-unblocking is not a good response. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 09:54, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I assume your comment here was mislocated. This part of the thread was about whether one should have support of the community or not before blocking. It was not about Husnock's reaction or his trend of bad behavior, which I think we all agree was improper. ] 12:33, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Good grief ... blocks aside, looking through his uploads, there are a lot that are obviously tagged wrong or just out and out copyvios ... it's the "if it's on the internet, it must be free" thing. ], ], ] --] 06:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::One of those examples is from 2005, before I even knew what I was doing and that is outside the issue we are discussing. if my image uploads are wrong, please fix them. Durin and I have alread buried the hatchet. -] 06:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| If administrators really weren't to unblock themselves under any circumstances whatsoever, the MediaWiki software would be configured to prevent them from doing so. A blocked administrator could unblock an IP address to remove an autoblock, but he/she would not be permitted to unblock his/her own username. That being said, it would seem that self-unblocking would be properly limited to truly extreme circumstances -- i.e. if one administrator uses a bot to frivolously block a large number of administrators, preventing unblocked administrators from responding to the situation, the blocked administrators may unblock themselves. Such a justification for self-unblocking does not seem to be present here. ] 06:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :In the interest of good faith, let's not harp upon Husnock's unblocking of himself. He has already apologized. While I do not condone such a move, the unblocking is peripheral compared to other concerns. --<sup>]</sup>''']''' ('']'') 06:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I reviewed the policy and, yes, everyone is right. I should not have unblocked myself. I formally apologize for this, I should have posted "unblock" to my page. If someone wants to reblock me, I will follow this course. However, in the policy it also syas that when you are in a dispute with someone you shouldnt block them to keep them quiet or to stablize your own version of a pge, etc. Prior to my reviewing the policy, I thought my self-unblock was justified as a response to an unfair block in the first place Apologies all around. Lets get back to the issue. Am I allowed to have my departure statement on the talk page? And, if not, why? -] 06:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Not if it disrupts the community and the building of the encyclopaedia, fails to assume good faith, or doesn't meet any other Misplaced Pages policy. No comment whether that is the case in this instance... '''] <sup>] · ] ]</sup>''' 06:14, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Self-unblock is a nice trap door to detect people who are for whatever reason insufficiently qualified to continue holding adminship. As far as the good-by message.. there is a reason it's called a "right to vanish" and not a "right to salt the earth". --] 06:17, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Husnock, Your hostility with respect to copyright wasn't towards me, but rather it was towards Durin who asked you questions about the same images and you treated him with large amounts of hostility. I've looked into your claims more, but I'm simply having a hard to believing you: you somehow managed to upload the images in the same order/groupings that is used today on the website which claims to hold the copyright, while the archive.org history of the site makes it clear that the images were added over time and that the grouping evolved. Your claim that even if they images are the work of Mr. Ploessl that he has no copyright in them is incorrect (he can hold the copyright on the sketch of the images even if the underlying artwork is the PD work of the US Government). Furthermore, the number you provided me with is simply a generic number to a HR department. They don't know anything about CDs of images of emblems, nor are they authorized to give me any useful contact information for the name you mentioned. | |||
| :::I hadn't responded to you any further because you'd told me your version of events, so I had nothing more to say to you... and after reading the history of your interactions with Durin, I must say that I was afraid to say anything else. I'd like to assume good faith but a view of your recent history and your decision to unblock yourself (even after 'leaving') is making that rather difficult. --] 06:17, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Durin and I have made peace (I think), and the core of my upsetness was that during that dispute there was some real, very scary, wiki-stalking going on where my wife was getting strange e-mails threatening her. Its been resolved, but it would upset anyone. As far as these images to which you refer, I've already said I got them from our image database at ] which has links to IOH and Randolph AFB among dozens of others. The CD I spoke of I got from Pat Ratzel. 314-801-0800 isn’t a Human resource number, its a customer service number. Did you call it and actually speak to someone? Depending on who it was, they should to at least have been able to tell you images of military medals and badges are free to use by anyone, and they should have been able to give you the number for either Randolph or the Air Force Liaison Office. If I was there, I could investigate what you were told and by who but am deployed. And, yes, I should just leave this site but this is all a bit unsettling. It seems the original problem with a block by another user in a dispute who censored my talk page has now mutated into discussions about being truthful about where these images came from. I can only state what I know. -] 06:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I'm glad to see that things are indeed more calm than recent history had caused me to believe. I don't want to think you are dishonest, and as you said.. you can only tell me what you know. It's also the case that most of the Federal Government does a terrible job with respect to keeping track of copyrights internally. So it's not super helpful that when the guy at the website complained that you just reverted him :) . It's possible that someone grabbed all those images off the fellows website and stuck them on a CD. I'll get to the bottom of it, and indeed I did call the number and confused them completely. I'll try again during the week and see if I have better luck. --] 06:50, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :As Greg says, self-unblock is a nice trap door to snare admins who don't know better than to not unblock themselves. I'm sure a surprising number of admins would fall for it. It would have been better to bring the discussion about days old disruption here first, allowing Husnock and anyone else to discuss it before the block was made. Husnock has acted poorly for weeks, and thebainer did the community no favor by blocking first, talking later. ] 06:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::He did talk first, which has caused Husnock to claim that he shouldn't have blocked as a 'party to a dispute'. Which way should it be? --] 06:50, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::As stated above, I mean talk it out with the community, there was no cause for bainer to take the community's burden upon himself when there was no immediate urgency. They already engaged each other in a revert war on Husnock's user page. It was time for bainer to pass it on to others to avoid the appearance of a one on one dispute. Blocking an admin for a month without any open community discussion should raise a red flag almost every time. ] 07:09, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :You wouldn't want some insane person or admin-bot to block everyone, requiring developer intervention with madness in the meantime; automation means that the one becomes as strong as the many. You also do want a person who accidentally blocks himself to be able to undo it. —]→] • 06:45, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Look, if self-unblocking was really totally unacceptable, change Mediawiki to make it impossible. If it isn't, then don't start complaining about the principle, look into the circumstances. Personally I have tried several times to make an absolute declaration that WP:IAR does not apply to self-unblocking for blocks placed by other users, and it gets reverted. That means that the community believes it '''can''' be acceptable, in certain circumstances. ]. “] ] ]”. 11:50, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Pray enlighten me as to what ''was'' really special about this occasion? The community trusts few of the users as administrators for a reason; that is they ''are expected to exercise good discretion'' and ''show understanding of the policies and the process''. There is a very good reason why the policies and the guidelines exist. Husnock has demonstrated in a very exemplery way how admin accounts can be abused. This warrants an immediate de-sysop; unfortunately many of the stewards are either offline or idle. — ]<span class="plainlinks"> </span> 12:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Dunno about this particular occasion. Just commenting on the principle of self unblocking. The password sharing is another issue and it's pretty much unique in my experience for an admin account to have a password released. ]. “] ] ]”. 12:12, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :: The thing that gets me about all those conversation is that Husnock is claiming his right to leave a message explaining why he - thing is - he ''never'' and it seems to be using that position as a bit of a shield for leaving his message up. --] 10:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::If you read his talk page, although he has 'left Misplaced Pages', he reserves the right to 'continue to answer questions on the talk page, vote in certain high profile AfDs, and revert vandalism against articles'. ]<i>::</i><small>]</small> 10:35, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :: Which was added after I challenged him about the message but his responses are still coached in "I left because" which frames the debate in an entirely different manner to "and that's why I'm just semi-active". --] 10:40, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ===Dear Misplaced Pages=== | |||
| Dear Misplaced Pages- | |||
| My name is Dan Rappaport, I’m a Lieutenant Colonel attached to CENTCOM currently serving in the Middle East. In real life, I know who Husnock is and he is a pretty great guy. I’ve been on Misplaced Pages off and on over three years and I saw this conversation after hearing about it from Husnock. I had at first sent a strong worded letter to “Morwen” who started this thing by saying Husnock wanted to kill her. It was pretty sad that this was removed from your website as an “attack” when my point was to show to Morwen how ridiculous it was to state that a United States Naval officer, stationed in the Middle East, would want to kill her. Also, it was a slap against Husnock. The man is married and has a kid on the way. Why the fuck would he go to England to hurt some girl because she posted some crap about Star Trek? Right after all this, Husnock decides to leave this site but gets beat up even for that. His webpage is messed with, blocked from the site, and it seems the same people are showing up over and over again to run him down and say he’s wrong. Now, lets take a look at what’s happened in the last few weeks. My understanding is limited to what I can find, but here goes: 1) Husnock gets told by a guy named Durin that he’s been uploading bad images for months and he will be investigated and then he is asked to hand over addresses and phone numbers of everyone he’s talked too, including his dead grandmother or something like that. That same day, he learns that someone’s sending e-mails trying to find out who he is and then a week later his pregnant wife gets threatened when’s he overseas. Yeah, that would piss me off, too. 2) Okay, so the Durin affair ends and then he gets drawn into these articles about Star Trek. I took a look and it seems he came around about those. I don’t know your policies that well, but the whole point with that nonsense appeared to be references being called false and then, yeah, people got pretty mean with Husnock. I saw a couple of edits where he’s called names and one where he’s called crap. So, point 2, yeah that might piss me off too. 3)Now, here we are with this whole death threat bullshit. Husnock threatened no one. He told a punk kid in the UK that she had no right telling a United States armed forces member that he couldn’t edit this site. Good for him. The girl then posts for anyone to see that Husnock threatened her life and she now fears him. News flash since folks don’t know, that drew real world attention and Husnock was talked to by some authorities, including NCIS. After all, a citizen of the United Kingdom posted on a public website that a U.S. Naval Officer had threatened to kill her. Maybe you all don’t see how serious that is but I do and, you bet, that would ROYALLY piss me if it happened to me. 4) Last we come to Husnock leaving. He says he’s leaving, he tries, but again gets beat up since he came back to vote on one of your pages and then someone screws with his webpage. He tries to stop them, gets blocked, and then here we are all, beating him about it, going back to the death threat issue, and saying things about those stupid images, half of which I think Husnock deleted from your site. So, where do we stand? I think you guys have treated this fine man like total shit. But, hey this is a website, not real life, and I talked to Husnock at lunchtime he was cool with everything. He knows this is not real, do most of you? He is gone now, he really is not coming back. I just wanted to stop in and share my thoughts. I hope everyone is proud of themselves because you really have run him off for good. That’s my two cents. God Bless the USA. -Dan | |||
| P.S.: Husnock gave me his account password so I could post this letter since half the ip addresses in Dubai are blocked by this site. You guys should really do something about that. No one can log on or create a new account. -Dan | |||
| :I haven't followed Husnock issue but something should be done re Dubai IPs. I don't know about Dubai ranges so if there are people who know about that, please take some action. -- '']'' - <small>]</small> 11:51, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :If the above is true, this is outrageous. Husnock, you and only you were given access to admin privileges, because it was believed that ] could be trusted with the privileges. You were sysopped, your friends were not. You should know that as an admin, you should be very careful with giving others access to your account. Even if you believe they can be trusted, you are still giving them access to an ''admin'' account. ]] <sup>] to electro-pop ] from 1984.</sup> 11:56, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :For the record, the above is true. The account isnt compromised since I can change the password and I am leaving anyway. Please consider this as part of the conversation on the issue. It isn't vandalism and it isnt trolling. Its just someone wanting to post; I was kind of shocked to see the letter reverted in less than a minute. Also, the Dubai ip thing really needs to be looked at. Noone can create an account from an American computer system right now as there are so many ip blocksthat it makes it impossible. Thank you everyone. -] 11:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::It doesn't matter if you can change the password. You have given another person access to your sysop-privileged account. That is very serious. You are constantly doing something wrong and then covering up with some lamehearted excuse. You apologized for Morwen's feelings about your statement, but you only begrudgingly expressed something of an apology for the statement itself. You unblocked yourself, which is a grave abuse of admin privilege, and again gave something of an apology for what you shouldn't have done in the first place, and which you should have known not to do. Now this. What's next? ]] <sup>] to electro-pop ] from 1984.</sup> 12:00, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :For the record, I complained about the intimidating tone of ]'s statement, on ] at 10:30. He complained about me feeling threatened by his intimidating statement to ] at 10:45. NCIS must be really efficient, or perhaps you are distorting the order of events as well as leaving personal abuse against me? | |||
| :By the way, yes, we have a serious issue here if an the password to a (supposedly) inactive admin account is known by another person. ] - ] 11:57, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Giving away your password to a supposedly inactive admin account, which for an account that left a week ago, has made a heck of a lot of edits and blanking of the warnings on the account's talk page, is the final straw. This account needs to be desysopped immediately. ]<i>::</i><small>]</small> 12:00, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::: The account is compromised at the ''user'' level (leaving aside, the story as presented makes makes no sense at all. Why has Husnock given his friend the password as he seems to be either sitting beside him or is in direct contact with him and could have posted the material himself) and should be desyopped straight away. We wouldn't want any "accidents". --] 12:00, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I'm already asking on IRC. No active stewards though, it seems... – ]] 12:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I've blocked him on the grounds that his account is compromised. HTH HAND —] | ] 12:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Still useless right now because he could easily do what he did to get in trouble the first time. – ]] 12:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::I have left a note on ] asking if a bureaucrat can step in. ]<i>::</i><small>]</small> 12:06, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Doesn't look like the kind of way most Lt. Colonels I have met ever talked...something just seems a tad bit off here, folks.--] 12:09, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :All I have ever met is an Australian Naval Captain and an Australian Naval Commander, but I would have to agree with you. ]] 12:12, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Husnock has requested unblocking. As I am involved, I won't handle the request, so could an uninvolved admin please do so? I think it is Very Bad Faith Indeed to insinuate any remote possibility that this Lt Col is an imaginary character Husnock has made up to say what he likes with yet another excuse - 'he' didn't say these things. ]<i>::</i><small>]</small> 12:14, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::There's ample precedent for blocking a compromised sysop account (see, for example, HolyRomanEmperor). It is because there could be two people using the account that it has been blocked. ] ] 12:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::HRE was not a sysop. ] 13:16, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Gah, you're right. My point stands though--we've blocked compromised accounts before. ] ] 13:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Well, quite. Also, it is interesting that ] said about this chap on December 13, that "I have never heard of this person but I do know there are CENTCOM offices in Dubai", and now they are good friends? ] - ] 12:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :There's an easy way to find this out: a check of the IP Husnock edits from. He claims to be editing from Dubai, so his IP should be consistent with that. If they resolve to e.g. New Zealand or Greece (to name two examples), something is fishy. ]] <sup>] to electro-pop ] from 1984.</sup> 12:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Except that a checkuser won't out his IP address. If the Arbitration Committee or a steward needs the information it can be supplied to them (of course, most arbs have checkuser themselves). ] ] 12:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Well, we definitely did have some abuse left on my talk page by a ] address, so I don't know what that is supposed to demonstrate. ] - ] 12:26, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::: Well bent to me. --] 12:30, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::You fear sockpuppetry? ]] <sup>] to electro-pop ] from 1984.</sup> 13:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: Not sure if Sockpupperty is the right word but even with AGF hanging over my head - I find the constant changes in story ("never seen this IP before" to "we have no idea who that IP could be" to "actually it's my good friend Dan") , the swift changes between Husnock, "dan" and then back to Husnock and all the other bits of the story odd to say the least. Would it be straining AGF too much to say that I would not find it a surprising turn of events to find out that "Dan" does not and has ever existed? --] 13:14, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::The IP address that left the message on Morwen's talk page is a very active one, as most of the traffic from Americans in Dubai routes through that IP address (nb, I just undid my block a few days early), and so probably most Americans editing in Dubai would resolve to that address, as it is a shared IP address. That won't, unfortunately, prove anything. ]<i>::</i><small>]</small> 13:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| This issue has been brought to us on the #wikimedia-stewards channel. We won't desysop anyone unless the admin permissions will be abused. I don't know the previous accidents with the user Husnock, and my personal feelings on this are that nothing bad happened, since his admin powers haven't been abused. Since Dubai is blocked, this was (not the only one, but it was) a way to overcome the ban. In any case - please move this request to your local Arbitration Committee. Once again - if Husnock or his friend will abuse their admin privilages, please contact us - we'll desysop him for precaution right away. ] 12:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Should we begin a formal ArbCom request now? That may be best. – ]] 12:25, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::We don't have to wait. -- '']'' - <small>]</small> 12:32, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yes, there have been a series of issues and lack of successful dispute resolution to justify a case starting whenever someone wants to start one. ] 12:36, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| : As usual, the procedures that the Stewards follow here are correct and appropriate. There is no immediate emergency that calls for bypassing ArbCom. ArbCom can act fast if they needed to (with an injunction if necessary). ] 12:47, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Did anyone even read my letter? Does this website have any kind of understanding? Yes, I am a real person and yes Husnock gave me his password so I could post my letter. If anyone wants my e-mail address Ill try and find some way of getting it you so you can see I'm flesh and blood. I was trying to help Husnock. He is now kicked off your webpage forever? What kind of a website is this. -D. Rappaport, CENTCOM {{unsigned|213.42.2.22}} | |||
| :Note that the above IP, which resolves to the UAE, was also used by . ]] <sup>] to electro-pop ] from 1984.</sup> 13:16, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::The above IP is used by just about every American in the UAE, so that proves nothing, I'm afriad. ]<i>::</i><small>]</small> 13:30, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Well, it proves that they apparently have ] at CENTCOM ;) ]] <sup>] to electro-pop ] from 1984.</sup> 13:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| * Guys, this is low Wikidrama and needs to be curtailed before it gets any more absurd. Husnock's made it pretty clear he doesn't want to be a sysop any more, so he should just make the usual statement on his Talk so we can get the sysop bit disabled, it's then up to him whether he leaves or stays around. It's be a shame ot lose him but clearly RL is too much right now so a Wikivacation looks like a great idea; he can reapply on return to normality (whatever that is). I don't feel we're doing Husnock or ourselves any favours right now. I don't think we should burn his boats for him, he's obviously been a good contributor in the past, let's just quetly walk away shall we? <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 13:32, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *:I would agree, but where did Husnock say this? I haven't seen him volunteering to give up his sysop status. Also, he already went on a Wiki-vacation five days ago when you last suggested it. This is Husnock on his vacation. ]<i>::</i><small>]</small> 13:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::There certainly seems to have been a lack of proportion/judgement from a number of those involved in these events, particularly given the self-identification of one as a senior company grade and one as a field grade officer. A holiday and/or a new start seems like a good idea to clear the air. ] 13:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *::Much of this reads like a comedy of errors, but there is also consistently a deeper issue. I can see Husnock being offended at the idea that he meant to harm someone... but consider his failure to understand how his threat (and it WAS a threat, of ''something'') could be taken that way short-sighted. I can see Husnock's desire to 'clear his name'... but think that continuing to grouse about it on his user page, after ''everyone'' had agreed he didn't intend a death threat, was petty and vindictive. I can see Husnock feeling that edit warring on his user page and a one month block were inappropriate (indeed, I agree)... but can only see it as a failure of good sense to then unblock himself. I can imagine that Husnock claimed to 'not know' Dan Rappaport to avoid accusations of meat-puppetry... but giving out his password even to this 'close RL friend' was incomprehensibly unwise. I understand Husnock not knowing all the intricacies of copyright... but not his failure to drop everything and review/resolve any potential violations when the first were pointed out. I can come up with reasonable / non-malicious motivations for all these things... but a solid and trustworthy admin this is not. --] 14:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ---- | |||
| So, what is going on now? These is talk of taking it to ], and ]'s unblock request has been declined on the basis the question will be answered there. ] - ] 14:06, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I think if someone thinks Husnock needs to be desysopped, they will start an ArbCom case request. Otherwise, once any account compromise issues are resolved, Husnock will be unblocked and be free to proceed as normal. ] 14:16, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Giving out your admins password is really bad judgement, it does not matter if you trust the person, the community decides who is trusted with admin powers. Out of line. ]<small> <sup>(Need help? ])</sup></small> 15:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::The community decides who is trusted with admin powers, but the community (including admins) cannot desysop. That has to be done by stewards, who generally only act in an emergency or on instruction from a wikipedia's ArbCom. Sadly, it looks like this whole case will now have to go to ArbCom, even if Husnock voluntarily gives up his admin bit. There are several important issues here that I, for one, would like to see ArbCom rule on. Also, I think that Husnock, even if he doesn't seem to be listening to the concerns of the community, might react better if ArbCom ended up saying that he was wrong to do many of the things that he did. So the only question now is whether anyone is going to file an ArbCom case? Can uninvolved, third-party observers file an ArbCom case because they want the issues resolved at that level, or does it have to be the partioes involved that file the case? ] 15:33, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Generally it would be one of the people involved. I'm pondering raising it myself, although that I wasn't directly involved in any of this recent actual blocking/unblocking drama/wheel-warring drama. Should I do this or should I leave it to one of the users who tried to talk to him? It really is a shame it got to this stage. ] - ] 16:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The best solution would probably be for Husnock to request de-sysoping, be unblocked, leave as he intended, and then come back when/if he wishes to. Failing that an ArbCom case seems the only option and thus I have been drafting one - even though I am a largely uninvolved party. --] 16:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Do you want to finish that off and then pass to me and we can submit it jointly, perhaps? I find your characterizations of the sitatuion above, and on Wednesday, close enough to the situation as I see it that this seems sensible. ] - ] 16:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Anyone can file a case. If someone else doesn't do it, I probably will. (edit conflcit, CBD is working on one) The shear number of disruptive discussions he has been involved with recently, over image deletions, Star Trek articles and his attacks on Durin for "outing" his personal info (when Durin merely pointed out that his name tag was legible on his self-portrait) have convinced me he does not have the temperment to be an admin. Giving out his password (or sockpuppetry, whichever is the case) is just the last straw. ] 16:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| 16:27, 18 December 2006 Jon Harald Søby (Talk | contribs) changed group membership for User:Husnock@enwiki from sysop to (none) | |||
| Desysopping performed. — ''']''' '']'' 16:31, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Given that Husnock has been de-sysoped I am going to unblock so that he may take part in the arbitration case... though that actually may not be needed unless he wishes to contest the de-sysoping. --] 16:41, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::He does not need to be unblocked to participate in arbitration. A blocked user may email statements, etc. to the arbitration committee's mailing list, to any arbitrator, or to any arbitration clerk, and they will be added to the case history. Unblocking him should be decided upon based on an estimation of his likelihood to cause further disruption, and not to defend any purported right he has to participate in arbitration (as he has none: nobody has a guaranteed right to participate in an arbitration case). ] (]) 16:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::A valid argument but... already did it. Further, I was not invoking some 'right' or rule in citing 'so he can participate in the ArbCom case', but rather noting my own motivation. The 'rule' for unblocking is simply the fact that the preventative purpose of the block no longer exists... Husnock's admin abilities are gone and therefor the danger of them being used by someone who has not been authorized to have them is now nil. He was earlier blocked for 'disruption', but that was IMO a questionable case and notably not restored by any admin even though Husnock had removed the block himself. As to hypothetical future disruption... I go with 'assume good faith' and deal with it IF it happens. --] 17:02, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Whether this Colonel is a real person or not, the entire issue boils down to the fact that an admin account's password has been compromised. That account must be indefinitely blocked and the admin bit removed immediately. ]|] 16:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| === CamelCommodore === | |||
| {{User|CamelCommodore}} | |||
| Anyone like to look into the possibility that ] is a sockpuppet of ]; see: --] 13:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| : I wouldn't say so. <small>Judging by that edit, that is. Perhaps a checkuser? Or is that really required now?</small>. — ]<span class="plainlinks"> </span> 13:50, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| : It would be hard/impossible to prove conclusively just read the above discussions most of the US personnel in the region have access through a common IP address ] 15:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :: Well, if he is a "retired US air force officer", then he won't be coming from .ae. is a rather odd third edit, though. ] - ] 15:42, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :It does not seem to be the same type of personallity. ]<small> <sup>(Need help? ])</sup></small> 15:50, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I offer this dif for consideration , the user does seem to be hinting at some improper covert purpose. - ] <sup><small>]</small></sup> 16:21, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :True, but there are alot of people with hidden agenda's, different personalities from my perspective. ]<small> <sup>(Need help? ])</sup></small> 16:58, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::It could easily be someone who is trying to get someone else in trouble, mind. ] - ] 17:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Whoever this guy is, he just posted a talk page message on my talk page after I made my Arb Com statement. I dont know who this is and I told him to stay the hell out of this. -] 19:56, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| he must have just been hanging around all day. I've excluded most of the points - most occur in a certain time period - guess when that is... --] 20:35, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I recommend CheckUser. ] <sup> ]</sup> 20:40, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I have indef blocked CamelCommodore as a trolling-only account. After doing so, I saw checkuser report from Dmcdevit. ] 21:52, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::''(edit conflict)'' I was going to indef block CC, but Thatcher131 beat me to it. if taken as 'truthful' would make the account a disruptive sockpuppet of Husnock... and if taken as falsehood would make the account a disruptive impersonator of Husnock. This situation has gotten so bizarre that I won't even try to guess and just leave determination of which to any checkuser... but either way someone needing to be blocked. --] 21:54, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==] Case== | |||
| Recently a ] was indef blocked due to a ] with his name. I feel that it was completely uncalled for and a violation of ]. Quite clearly the user had no clue what a talk page was all about, he only ] made an attempt to use one, nor did he know what the edit summary was; but was a ] contributor in a specialised topic. The actual allegations that his username is offencive should be reexamined as it was clearly the fruit of over cautiousness. Please unblock and find some way to apologise so he knows about it. Thanks ] 06:30, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :This user's ] was 2 Dec, and many editors talked to him/her about changing the username before the block occurred. Email is not enabled, and there hasn't been a message on the talk page in over two weeks. In all probability, the editor moved on to a new account. It's unfortunate that a great contributor was blocked, but I don't see anything to indictate the editor was bitten.--] ] 07:18, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :For anyone who cares, the above editor has persuaded me to on ]'s talk page, conditioned, of course, on him going to ] with me to get this all settled.--] ] 09:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::May I ask why this username is deemed offensive though? It simply denotes that the user is jewish...? ]] 09:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Don't know. I mentioned ANI thread to the blocking admin. I have no opinion and no problem w/ anyone unblocking User:Jewish, though please look further down this tread, first.--] ] 19:02, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::] prohibits usernames dealing with "religious figures such as "God", "Jehovah", "Buddha", or "Allah", which may offend other people's beliefs". I would assume that it was blocked under this section. -]<sup>]</sup> 20:12, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::That prohibition is because wearing such a username might be taken as claiming to '''be''' "God", "Jehovah", "Buddha", or "Allah", which would be blasphemous to their believers. Claiming to '''be''' "Jewish", "Muslim", "Christian", or "Buddhist" does not commit such an offense, and should not be prohibited for that reason. <small>– ] <sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> ''02:54, 19 Dec 2006 (UTC).''</small> | |||
| ::::::Please note that some other usernames beginning with "Jewish" — ], ], ] — have been used and remain unblocked. have existed, some offensive (due to the rest of the name), some not. Why is the single unattached word "Jewish" now so controversial? Are all these blocked, or all these , or all these ? There's no username block on or or . So what's wrong with being ? <small>– ] <sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> ''20:27, 19 Dec 2006 (UTC).''</small> | |||
| :This brings up an issue which I believe needs addressing. Blocking users with usernames that could be deemed offensive (excluding trolls) happens very frequently and at the judgement of of the blocking administrator only. I believe (and I have been guilty of this myself) that far too often, a potentially useful user with a username that is deemed mildy offensive is blocked without warning within seconds or miutes of registering. Indeed, with some of the obscurely offensive usernames that get reported to ] sometimes, it seems like some of those trawling the user creation log are playing a giant game of whac-a-mole. I propose that except in the case of usernames that are deemed wildly offensive (including but not limited to swearing etc), the user with the offending name has a politely worded template added to their talk page with a request to change their username (or just get a new account) and newbie friendly directions on how to do so. This template should also have a category in it or some way for a bot to organise them so any usernames that have not been changed after a set period (say a week) get dumped to another page where they can be blocked by admins and the {{tl|usernameblock}} template be added. If this proposal gains some momentum/support, I ask that someone with skills mock up an appropriate template to fit the above. It would also be good to approach one or more of the bot owners with bots that currently complete tasks similar to that which I have outlined and ask them if they would be willing to add this task to their bot. (once again - none come to mind, but I am sure someone will think of some) | |||
| :To expand on the "whats deemed offensive" issue. We need to establish some sort of consensus as to how far we take the potentially offensive boundaries. ], so it could be argued that outside of the troll accounts like {{user:Christians are fags}}, no good faith account that doesnt violate the other ] rules like non-commercial or non-latin characters (for example) should be blocked for having an offensive username, even if they are encouraged to change it and don't. However as current policy precludes ''"Inflammatory usernames"'' we need to work out some sort of system to determine what exactly is inflamatroy and what is being over-sensitive or rigidly enforcing the rules for no good purpose. ]] 08:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I second this. The indef-blocks with no prior warning have a bite-like effect and are unnecessary in most cases. I'd also extend that to other criteria such as the non-Latin characters one (that rule will need to be reviewed soon anyway, once we have wikimedia-wide single usernames). ] ] 09:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :: Any figures on the "very frequently"? Last time I did any looking into this the number of blocks based on username over a 24 hour period was less then 1% of all accounts created. I didn't look further to exclude the very obviously offensive, but I would guess that the borderline cases were a small fraction of that. --] 10:45, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I agree on the BITE issue; ] already says but should be emphasized: ''Co-operative contributors should normally just be made aware of our policy via a post on their talk page. Voluntary changes (via ]) are preferred: users from other countries and/or age groups may make mistakes about choosing names -- immediate blocking or listing on RfC could scare off new users acting in good faith.'' <span class="user-sig user-Quarl"><i>—] <sup>(])</sup> <small>2006-12-18 10:11Z</small></i></span> | |||
| :: Not sure I entirely agree, without reference to this precise case: Immediately reverting a new users edits may scare someone off, a bite like effect, if that edit is unsourced rumour in a ] situation it is exactly the right thing to do, similarly a truly inappropriate (offensive, confusing etc. etc.) is still inappropriate no matter who owns it or how long it has been created gor. As with ], ] isn't a call to look the other way. To my mind immedidate (i.e. point of creation) blocking in many cases is preferable to blocking after an edit or two, provided the situation is explained and creation of a new username simple, then it isn't the rather emotive "Biting", but good housekeeping. --] 10:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::I don't think immediate blocking to be in order, because I think it quite probable that a user so encumbered upon his initial attempt to contribute (under an account) to the project will not readily appreciate why his account has been blocked and will be unlikely to return. Except in such cases as a username is plainly inflammatory and disruptive (e.g., ], as against ]), it is, I imagine, as Viridae and Quarl seem to suggest, appropriate that we instead welcome the user and suggest concomitantly that his editing might go more smoothy were he to change his username. If an editor whose username is troublesome is indeed here to disrupt or in any event to contribute other-than-constructively, such tendency will be borne out in his reply to such a suggestion or in his editing, and we ought not to risk the loss a prospectively good contributor because we apprehend some nebulous tendency to disrupt in his name and (as sometimes seems to happen) impute to him malign motive. If an editor contributes constructively but is particularly unwilling to change his username and if such username has seemed to be disruptive or inflammatory, surely an ] should be in order, and surely a constructive editor will straightaway change his username upon the community's expressing a preference for such change. ] 19:48, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :There actually is a ], which doesn't seem to have caused any controversy. (Of course, in that case "Christian" actually does seem to be the guy's real first name.) If "Christian" is acceptable as a username, why not "Jewish"? I don't really like the whole "offensive usernames" business where admins take it on themselves to decide the inherently subjective issue of which usernames might possibly offend somebody. ] 12:18, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::The difference between Jewish and Christian is that Christian is a first name, and that this user Christian probably had no religious connotations with his name. What I wonder though is what will happen to a User:Osama, which is a common Arab name. ]] <sup>] to electro-pop ] from 1984.</sup> 13:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::While I'm all for blocking users based on usernames that are offensive (e.g., ], even though it might be a self-identified black, ], or even ]), perhaps we ought to give a rehash on whether we want to block any user with a religious part of their username unless the editor is patently editing against that perceived bias. For example, I believe ] was around to push anti-Muslim propaganda. But if ] is indeed Jewish, then he/she should not be blocked. ]<sup>]|]</sup> 15:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Agree w/ Pat here. -- '']'' - <small>]</small> 18:11, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::For the record: I did not comment on this particular block of this particular account, but merely on the semantical perspective of a point raised by Dtobias. I have no opinion on this particular issue. ]] <sup>] to electro-pop ] from 1984.</sup> 21:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| In case anyone is interested, I did a brief survey once and found some interesting history behind some well-known names: ]. ] 00:24, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I think what we need to do is place the "Your username must not contain" section of above the form for entering username/password and add a message saying that accounts with inappropriate usernames will be blocked indefinitely without warning. (Looks like that's one for the devs). As it stands, it barely shows up on the 1024 * 768 screen without scrolling. ] 10:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == ] sockpuppetry and edit warring == | |||
| Two things here. CheckUser shows that {{user|KarlXII}} is the same as {{user|Osli73}}, who is already on Probation and revert parole from ]. This means he has been in violation of the revert parole multiple times, aside from and 3RR evasion or tag teaming with the sock. I'd like some admins to figure out the enforcement on this. Also, can we please get some eyes on the incessant edit warring at ]? It looks like both sides are out of hand, so some admin attention would be useful. ]·] 09:24, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Already blocked by admin ]. — ]<span class="plainlinks"> </span> 09:50, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :: I have indefinitely blocked the sockpuppet and blocked Osli73 for a week for direct violation of the arbcom ruling. I think a month's ban from editing the ] would also be in order. Would like to hear what others think about that. --] 09:56, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::A week's ban, at least, for Osli is appropriate. Given the crapstorm going on at ] at the moment, I would suggest someone being prepared to protect it if they can't calm down, and come to some kind of consensus before unprotecting. ]<i>::</i><small>]</small> 10:12, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Sockpuppets indef blocked == | |||
| Following and i've blocked indef the 2 socks ] and ]. Those accounts were created to be used at Ireland/Northern Ireland/England topics. I've also given a 24h block for main account of the puppeteer ]. Please extend if you feel it is the right action. Please note that apart from sockpuppeting, ]'s userpage contained against a few nationalities which i had removed earlier after . -- '']'' - <small>]</small> 11:16, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == User:Starblindy == | |||
| I was a user with a history of great edits that I thought were helping and constructing wikipedia. A short message to starblind saying I thought a block of a previous user might of been a bit harsh and he decides block me without reason. I then post a message on his talk page and he refuses to respond. I want my good history and credibility back. I won't ever edit wikipedia again unless I get my user back. I can't have whenever I make progress being blocked as a sockpuppet. It just is counter productive. If I didn't know better I would think starblind is trying to stop anyone with apposing views gain a reputation to become administrator. ]. Please respond with your comments.--] 13:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Note that you only have twenty edits. Your block was in accordance with our username policy. ]] <sup>] to electro-pop ] from 1984.</sup> 13:21, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Note 2 of those were creating articles. I hold to the point that no one has ever confused we with anyone else. Am I expected to go through every user and try and come up with an original username. Also he sights me being a sockpuppet of Enknowed or something. Is asking him for an explanation of why he blocked a user all of a sudden proof of being a sockpuppet with no other evidence.--] 13:25, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::I will repeat that you were quite rightly blocked. Your username is way too similar to that of ]. Could you please explain your relation to {{user5|Enknowed}}? He is mentioned in your block log. ]] <sup>] to electro-pop ] from 1984.</sup> 13:29, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::All i see is that the block was unjust. There is no proof of sockpuppeting and no prior notice at ] re his username. Has anyone informed this user about all that? It is the blocking admin ] who should answer those questions. -- '']'' - <small>]</small> 13:36, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::A notice on Starblindy's talk page about the username might indeed have been appropriate, but that does not make the block unjust. ]] <sup>] to electro-pop ] from 1984.</sup> 14:06, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::A new user with a name confusingly similar to an admin shows up out of the blue at the admin's talk page to complain about the block of a sock puppeteer. I may be missing something here, but why is that an unjust block? Starblindy, if you are reading this and honestly want to contribute in a positive way, just make a new name and get on with life. ] 14:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Assuming good faith and having a look at nothing tells us that he hasn't been contributing in a positive way. Again, nobody told him anything about his username. So how come the blocking admin got to the conclusion that this user is a sock of ] (compare those w/ )? -- '']'' - <small>]</small> 14:16, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::So if ] or ], who has 20 contributions posts on your page a complaint about the block of a known sockpuppet, you wouldn't block him? ] 14:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Although ... on further review, the Enknowed socks from ] were all from Australia IPs. ] is from Massachusetts. So I don't know ... politely informing the user along with the block that he should choose a new name would have probably been a good idea ... but it's distinctly possible given the different contributions and locations, he is not a sock. ] 14:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I'm not a position to tell, but I assume that might have something to do with the block. ]] <sup>] to electro-pop ] from 1984.</sup> 14:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I see guys. This edit is the only one that tells alot. I didn't see it actually. Sorry for the inconvenience. -- '']'' - <small>]</small> 14:26, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Look I just wanted to say that it is painfully obvious to all that have looked into it that I am not a sockpuppet of Enknowed. It isn't fair to damage my reputation by making random claims. I asked a question (I'm sorry I didn't make this clear above) about a certain user and I was fairly pleased with starblind's response. However that in no way should make me a sockpuppet that get's no explanation. A nice a message somewhere saying that it was because my username and had nothing to do with my edits, would of been nice and much well recieved. It seems to me that my reputation has been damaged. Is this what administrators do?? You ask a question about one of their blocks give a nice answer then block you almost immediatly as a sockpuppet of the user you were asking about?? It points out my comment to starblind in the first place, he blocked Enknowed for being a sockpuppet too. It seems if you don't love a user it is easy enough to claim he is a sockpuppet. I remember reading about the case, and starblind or another user saying that though the edits were close together after Silentbob got blocked and thus his ip that he could of run down to the library and started vandelising wikipedia around 30 mins after his block (this dosn't seem probable too me). It just seems to me that it has become way too easy for admins to say someone is a sockpuppet of another user without any evidence, except weak links. This was my complaint in the first place. Block a user for reasons not for weak sockpuppet links!!! Instead of starblind getting this point, instead he blocks me for (in part) being a sockpuppet. Well I am sorry for trying to make a constructive point about wikipedia. BTW look at his response to my comment he then gives a nice response without any indication of the impending block on me. It just dosn't seem fair, and those 20 edits were fairly big (including 2 article creations) and I don't really feel like wasting more of my time creating a reputation. This may be the end of the line for this user.--] 23:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Ok I have calmed down a bit though I still believe I was wrongly done by, but I have a new humorus username TheWikipedianFormallyKnownAsStarblindy I hope this doesn't upset anyone and I will recieve no more problems from administrators. If I am blocked again for being a sockpuppet of Enknowed as I will be making very obvious that I am the same user as starblindy, who according to starblind is the same user as Enknowed, well lets just saying stuff will happen. If there is a problem with this username POST A COMMENT WHILE BLOCKING OR BEFORE SAYING WHY!!!--] 23:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::Blocked for the User name. Choose one which doesn't include another User's ID. ]|] 00:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==Need an outside opinion on ]== | |||
| After that have continually been removed per consensus and , ] posted this on his talk page. Beyond the fact that this appears to be a thinly veiled ] against everyone who has reverted or argued against him (he thinks we are all "industry spin doctors"), it also appears the continually escallating blocks he's accrued for disruption and personal attacks have had no effect. per ] I've been giving him the benefit of the doubt, but at this point it appears he is pretty committed to continuting to be disruptive and attempt to insert his own ] into articles. So my question is, does this merit an Arbcom or is there another avenue that should be pursued? Based on his attitude I'm not sure a User RfC would have any effect at all.--] 14:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| * You are absolutely right, Miracleimpulse is trolling, I removed the comment as being utterly unhelpful to anyone (least of all Miracleimpulse). <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 14:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :*Thanks, I'll wait and see if your comment has any effect on him at all. If this continues I'm going to open an Arbcom.--] 14:40, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::* And I will be right there with you. Enough is enough. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 14:41, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I have ocassionally seen the arbitrators decline to review "righteous community bans" (I think "righteous" is Fred's terminology.) Do we really need to bother them about this? (Or maybe we want to toss a softball so the newbies can get some batting practice.) ] 15:31, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Those interested may also look at ] and ] for issues involving this user, as well as several prior threads on this board. ] 16:11, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::My impression from the ] was that Miracleimpulse already had an ArbCom case that was being re-opened. --] (]) 16:29, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::: No, that was a ] I had originally requested on the ] article (after a couple failed RfCs) that was going to be reopened by the mediator, but was closed when ] was blocked for the IfD disruption. The original mediation ended in what appeared to be a consensus; just not a consensus that ] agreed with. Re-opening the MfD at this point wouldn't be helpful because this has gone well beyond a content dispute.--] 16:43, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Support an indef block. This Single Purpose Account has been nothing but disruptive. ]|] 17:09, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I've been watching this article for some time with interest. I want to point out some things I've noticed. | |||
| 1. I've noticed multiple "NPOV" disputes on this article. I need someone to explain to me how factual information, photographs, and related newspaper articles going as far back as 1921 can have a "point of view" attached to them. If the facts about a specific issue are condemning, then they are condemning. It IS NOT a point of view issue just because someone pointed it out. Point of view as it relates to photos and newspaper articles from eighty years ago is not relative, as the photographers and journalists responsible for the photos and articles are not currently editing Misplaced Pages. | |||
| 2. There were multiple complaints about the quality of some of the uploaded images. I noticed that the images were replaced with higher resolution scans as requested by multiple users, and subsequently deleted without a trace or a debate. Can someone explain? | |||
| 3. Certain users on here have entirely too much time on their hands. Edits get reverted sometimes within MINUTES of their occurance. It does, in fact, makes someone wonder if there are people on wikipedia who do this for a living. Who exactly sits in front of their computer and mashes f5 while looking at an article about such a seemingly insignificant holiday? People with stake in said holiday, thats who. | |||
| 4. User: Miracleimpulse's information seems completely factual. I don't understand why factual and highly relevant information would be removed from the supported topic in an encyclopedia article. Is it really possible to have "too much" information about something? He seems to be the only supporter of facts editing this article. I haven't yet witnessed a single person disputing his content, only his format. I see multiple users supporting the removal of content, and only one supporting the addition of content. Why? There is absolutely no reason to delete the content unless you have something to suppress. Suppression of information is not permitted on Misplaced Pages. A small group of editors is talking about arbcom-ing someone for posting facts. It's not right, and its not the spirit of free information upon which Misplaced Pages is based. Stop focusing on the syntax and format and start focusing on the information in question. | |||
| What '''is''' going on here? | |||
| ] 16:23, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :FWIW, this exact same message was posted to ] by {{user|Meisterchef}} . This was Meister's only edit. The IP who posted here only has one other edit from in September , which was to correct a spelling error by {{user|Eyetomhas}}, who's only edit was also in support of Miracleimpulse. Not sure if these are socks, but Miracleimpulse does have a known history of using multiple account on other online forums (see unanswered concern expressed at ]. ] 02:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == James Stacy == | |||
| Anonymous users keep deleting well sourced information and link I have posted. I have posted a talk page but the anonymous user/users ignore it. I request that new/anonymous users be barred from editing this page. ] 14:16, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Regardless of whether you are right or wrong, please do not capslockedly accuse others of censorship. The edits on the article do not rise to the level to warrant semi-protection. ]] <sup>] to electro-pop ] from 1984.</sup> 14:25, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I posted on ] -> | |||
| :Firstly, you are adding here, is actually a mirror of Misplaced Pages, so is useless as a source. The usenet post is also not a very good source. It may nor may not have reproduced the ''People'' magazine accurately, we have no way of knowing this. I think, if this is being challenged, then it would be better to leave it out, until such time as someone can track down that issue of ''People'', or find this in some other reliable source. | |||
| :This is especially so as he is a living person and our policy about ] applies. | |||
| :] - ] 14:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == An established User keep vandalizing == | |||
| ] is keep vandalizing the ] article. He has done that mutliple times today. I think he might also have violated ] too but that punishment might be too less for him. For example look at following edits. | |||
| # A sufi poet ] as holiest site | |||
| # That castle in Germany ] as Islam holiest spot | |||
| # Many funny like comments ''"Jewish soldiers at the Buraq Wall, the third holiest Islamic site in Jerusalem, itself the third holiest city in Islam, being on the '''third planet''' in the solar system"'' | |||
| #Another edit says "''Less than 100 meters from the holiest site in Islam, opposite the Grand Mosque in Mecca, is a surprising culinary offering: a '''Kentucky Fried Chicken''' fast-food restaurant''" | |||
| # Another edit says "Hindi couplets"/poetry as holiest site in Islam . It also say a poet ] as holiest site in Islam. | |||
| # ] as Islam holiest site | |||
| And above are not all but he keeping going on and on. He had multiple non-sense edit today (see the history of the article ). | |||
| I do not think that he need to be warned being a new user but we have already warned him . | |||
| Please stop him. Thanks --- ] 14:36, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Note that the paragraph about KFC was copied word-for-word from the CNN article it cites, so regardless of whether this constitutes vandalism, someone needs to have a word with this person about copyright. ] - ] 14:38, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I've just left a last warning notice at . -- '']'' - <small>]</small> 14:42, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Thanks. --- ] 14:44, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| KFC is back again . I am now looking to report him on ] too. --- ] 15:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Pagania discussion board is constantly being deleted == | |||
| The Pagania discussion board is constatntly being deleted by users who don't like the content.<br />] 14:43, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| * Try rephrasing your comments in a less confrontational way, and do read the archives as it is clear that merely repeatig previously advanced arguments does not help to resolve the long-running disputes on that article. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 16:26, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| Would somebody mind asking ] to stop following me around, please? With no previous comments on ] () it is beyond the bounds of coincidence that he popped up there shortly after I made a comment to MONGO. It's getting a bit tiresome. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 14:58, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Seeing the controversy around him, it's not entirely impossible. I have his talk page on my watchlist for some reason. -] <small><sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></small> 15:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::MONGO has never, as far as I can see, interacted with ATren, anywhere. As far as I can see this passes the ] :-) <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 15:06, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::You did allude to your dispute with ATren, and he responded about it. I don't see where the stalking comes in there. Frankly, Guy, you've really no grounds of complaint. ] is about systematic targeting of someone's edits to revert or undermine them. It doesn't ban someone using 'User contributions' and responding to an analysis they disagree with. ]. “] ] ]”. 15:21, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Not that you have any beef with me here, of course... Perhaps I should just make a new thread and ask that all my little friends post their trolls in a separate section, that might be simpler all round. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 15:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Well, there you go again - if you want people to go away and shut up and leave you in peace, the best way is to apologise for your mistake, not to repeatedly call them trolls. Have you read anything on the social psychology of ]s? PS: I note you didn't actually contradict me that this is not a case of Wikistalking. ]. “] ] ]”. 15:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: Since numerous admins pointed out independently that the mistake was ''yours'', I await your apology with baited breath. Oh, wait, I forgot - Fys is ''never'' wrong, even when in a minority of one. How foolish of me to forget. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 16:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| When he alludes that I am a "POV pushing troll" on another admin's talk page (even though he didn't reference me by name, anyone who saw his vote page knew who he was talking about) '''I am going to defend myself.''' Is that stalking? JzG continues to go around complaining to other admins about this "POV pushing troll" who is "stalking him", but he's the one who continues to tell blatant lies about our long-standing dispute. Why is he bringing me up in a completely unrelated discussion? | |||
| See, it's like this: if I '''don't''' defend myself against JzG's accusations, then it looks like I'm guilty. Then, fast forward a month when JzG asks MONGO or some other admin for help with the dispute: of course, that admin might remember JzG's unchallenged version of events, and (s)he comes on the scene with a ''preconceived notion'' that I'm still "POV pushing" or "stalking JzG". The fact that a respected admin (and friend) has called me a POV pushing troll (and now a stalker) will inevitably color their interactions with me from the start. | |||
| For a casual editor like myself, ''I have no choice but to defend my reputation'' in the face of groundless accusations from a respected admin. | |||
| Now, I've ''tirelessly'' documented my reasoning in voting against JzG - I've provided at least a dozen diffs to support my case. JzG has not only repeatedly insisted on his version of events ''which is entirely contradicted by my evidence'', but he has also not provided ''one single diff'' to prove his assertions about me. Am I to keep my mouth shut and allow him to spread lies about me (yes, lies - look at my evidence) to all his admin friends? ] 15:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| * I think my point is proven, thanks. Oh - over there is a small spot which I think might be a blood spatter from the horse, you might go and beat that just in case. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 16:02, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::What point? That I watch your edits to make sure you don't spread lies about me? Guilty as charged! ] 16:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Guy, you did refer to ATren (unnecessarily) on Mongo's talk page before ATren showed up there. But ATren could have stayed out of it, and is taking his attempts to contact/irritate/influence you to fairly drastic levels (I note that over half of his last 200 edits are about you in some way). However, Guy, it might be better not to provide any further temptation, and just ignore his provocation, if you view it as that. If he is a troll, don't feed him. If he is not a troll, then ignore it or file an RFC. ]<i>::</i><small>]</small> 16:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Proto, I am defending my reputation. He continues to insinuate that I am a POV pushing troll, and I have to defend myself against that ''completely groundless accusation''. What do I do here? Do I ignore it and watch my reputation get tarnished in the admin community, or address it and risk being called a stalker? I choose the latter, but for a casual user like myself trying to defend himself against an admin spreading lies, it's "damned if you do, damned if you don't". You will note that most of my so-called "trolling" and "stalking" is me defending myself when JzG misrepresented the dispute on AN/I or elsewhere. ] 16:36, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :: Ah, serves me right for conducting a breaching experiment :-) Still and all, there is no doubt but that he is following me around, and it's somewhat trying. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 16:22, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Are you implying that you were trying to bait me? If you want me to stop "following you around", then stop spreading lies about me. ] 16:38, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::: My mistake, I forgot that ''you'' are allowed to "lie" about ''me'' (i.e. present your version of events, which I dispute and have told you so numerous times) but not vice-versa. I'll try to remember that. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 19:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Nope, "my version" happens to be the truth, ''backed by diffs''. For example, you continue to , despite the fact that you yourself at the time. This is a blatant, provable lie by you, and it implies that I am lying, '''which I am not''' as the diff clearly shows. This is the type of thing I am fighting against - casual remarks by a respected admin that ''completely misrepresent the dispute'' and serve to taint my reputation by implying that ''I'm'' a POV-pushing, lying troll. | |||
| :::::And now, we find out that you've apparently been in an attempt to get a stalking charge against me. So not only have you lied to others about this dispute, not only have you called me a POV pusher without a shred of evidence, not only have you accused me of lying when I tried set the record straight, you are now (apparently) intentionally starting threads like this one solely for the purpose of ] that I am a troll or stalker. Now, given all that, I find it very ironic that you are now requesting that '''I''' leave '''you''' alone. ] 19:46, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::How about you both try and leave each other alone? Do it for me, and for Christmas, and, darn it, for the children. Just give it a try, go and do something constructive. Guy, you particularly should know better than to get drawn in. ]<i>::</i><small>]</small> 22:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::: Love to - just ask him to stop following me around, will you? ;-) <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 23:12, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::... and yet, his very next edit is this - I guess he's still conducting his "breaching experiment"? ] 00:03, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Please, will both of you just stop pointing fingers at each other? This dispute is both ridiculous and childish. Continue on, and you guys won't be "protecting your reputation." You will have none left to protect. --<sup>]</sup>''']''' ('']'') 00:34, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :As I have indicated, I have no choice. As long as JzG continues to call me a POV pushing troll to all his admin friends, I'm forced to defend myself. What can I do? What would you do? This is not a random, nobody editor spouting off on his talk page; this is a well-known and well-liked admin broadcasting "ATren is a POV pushing troll" on AN/I and other admins' talk pages. I can't just ignore it. ] 03:11, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Your attempts to protect your honor are only serving to lose it. If I were you, I would just shut up (really). Believe me, I've been spat on enough to know what you are talking about. If you aren't a POV-pushing troll as JzG alleges (and I don't condone said accusations unless they are true), then your record will speak for itself. Your continuous attempts to protect yourself using more and more hysterical (pardon the word) means are only embarrassing yourself. --<sup>]</sup>''']''' ('']'') 03:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::And yet, if I don't answer the charges, others will just take JzG's word for it. See, I'm in a no-win situation: if I ignore his charges, others take his word at face value and I'm labelled a POV pushing troll; if I don't ignore it, I'm a stalker. Damned if I do, damned if I don't, so I might as well go down defending myself. ] 03:59, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::What you two seem to be doing now is engaging into a fight to have the last word, a game you two should have stopped playing in kindergarten. Please, for the sake of God and sanity, STOP. I don't care who called whom names, this "yeah, I did it, but he started it first" farcical exchange stops here. ATren, I don't care whether JzG called you a "POV-pushing troll" or not. Misplaced Pages editors are smart enough not to buy accusations unless they are proven. --<sup>]</sup>''']''' ('']'') 04:08, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::By the way, may I suggest an ] or other means of ]? This isn't something that administrators have to deal with, since it is so minor (if not fallacious already). --<sup>]</sup>''']''' ('']'') 04:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Canuckster issue == | |||
| === Big problem here === | |||
| I had the following pasted on my talk page. If we believe this user or not is up to you guys; perhaps we want to be more cautious, or, instead outright block the user if the sockpuppetry is dead obvious. -]<sup>]|]</sup> 14:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Sarah Ewart has blocked 4 or more people who work or live at this hospital calling us all sokpuppets? So some of us can't use our user names anymore. Please look at the topics I just tried to contribute to; it looks like my associate, Canuckster, has been railroaded. ] 14:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Pat: ]. Quite simple imo, let's just ignore them. – ]] 15:00, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I wasn't privvy to the previous discussion. Like I said, if it's obvious, ]. -]<sup>]|]</sup> 15:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == YouTube link deletion == | |||
| ] has been removing all links to YouTube (and Google Video) from a large number of sites, despite the utter lack of consensus on ] regarding the validity of YouTube links. In at least the case on ], the link he has removed is claimed, with no contrary evidence, to be on YouTube with the copyright holder's permission. | |||
| There needs to be significantly more clarity in the policy, or this sort of thing will continue to happen ad nauseam. As it is, I am tempted to obtain a copy of AWB so I can go reverting all the unjustified deletions. ''']''' <small>]</small> 16:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I would resist that temptation. Just my opinion but the gross copyright violations on Youtube render all such links invalid. As I understand it, that policy does have consensus support. ]. “] ] ]”. 16:40, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Reading i understand that YouTube is to be avoided and that Sir Nicholas was being bold in removing it: | |||
| :*''Direct links to documents that require external applications (such as Flash or Java) to view the relevant content'' | |||
| :*''Links to social networking sites (such as MySpace), discussion forums or USENET.'' -- '']'' - <small>]</small> 16:44, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Having read the multiple screensful of argument on ], I see no consensus that YouTube links are automatically invalid. I won't rehash the particulars of the arguments here, but suffice it to say that there is enough legal content on YouTube that anything other than case-by-case examination of each video for copyright and relevancy is an action which does not have support of a community consensus. | |||
| ::YouTube links are not ''Direct links to documents that require external applications (such as Flash or Java) to view the relevant content''. The guildeline states: ''It is always preferred to link to a page rendered in normal HTML that contains embedded links to the rich media.'' That is exactly what one gets with a YouTube link. ''']''' <small>]</small> 16:56, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::(edit conflict) The "Direct link" point is not relevant here. We still have the much more relevant copyright problem, of course. --]|] 16:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Which, in the case of the Barrington Hall video, ], is not relevant, either. We have an assertion from the copyright holder that the YouTube link is not in violation of copyright, and no '''evidence''' from anyone else that the statement is not true. As the content is not hosted on any Wikimedia project, we don't need the ironclad proof we would need for content hosted here, merely enough to create the presumption that we are not contributing to copyright infringement by linking to the YouTube page. | |||
| ::::However, there is still a larger policy problem, because there is quite a lot of content on YouTube released by independent filmmakers who would rather have the exposure than the royalties, and we have deletionists and wikilawyers like Sir Nicholas who continue to remove content without checking the links for copyright issues or relevancy. ''']''' <small>]</small> 17:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| The following has been copied from my talk page. This user has not only ] with me by putting a vandalism warning on my talk page; and then goes on to ] about ], when it is ]. It is obvious that he does not understand the policies and guidelines provided on Misplaced Pages. | |||
| Relevant links – | |||
| *] | |||
| *] | |||
| <blockquote> | |||
| ===]=== | |||
| Please do not delete sections of text or valid links from Misplaced Pages articles{{{{{subst|}}}#if:Barrington Hall|, as you did to ]}}. It is considered ]. If you would like to experiment, use the ]. Thank you. <!-- Template:Test2del (second level warning) --> See the discussion on the ] page - you are incorrectly interpreting ]. ''']''' <small>]</small> 15:54, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Kindly review ] and revert yourself. Also your warning, to a edit made in good faith came as unwarranted. — ]<span class="plainlinks"> </span> 16:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Also, the YouTube links are not ] as any person with an internet connection can upload any kind of file over their website. Many of the vidoes uploaded are copyrighted by their respective owners and links to those should not be used on Misplaced Pages. — ]<span class="plainlinks"> </span> 16:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Read the discussion on ] and ]. There is no consensus that it is against policy to link to YouTube videos which are not clearly infringing copyright. That particular video clip is claimed to be allowed to be posted on YouTube, and nobody has offered any evidence that the clip exists on YouTube in violation of copyright. Deletion of a link which does not knowingly violate copyright, which has been discussed at grat length on the talk page, is not a good-faith edit. Neither is wholesale removal of links to YouTube throughout Misplaced Pages. ''']''' <small>]</small> 16:24, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::What exactly are you talking about? We do not need consensus on ] for deciding if we need to keep YouTube video links on this website. Speaking of ], the guideline ] – | |||
| ::::*''Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research. See ].'' | |||
| ::::*''Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority.'' – YouTube is not an authority, there is not reliability as anyone can upload new videos, including copyrighted ones. Facilitation of copyright violations is not a choice with Misplaced Pages. Either link it to the website retaining the copyrights over the video or remove the link to YouTube. | |||
| ::::Kindly get yourself familiar with Misplaced Pages's guidelines of ] and ] and revert yourself. Regards, — ]<span class="plainlinks"> </span> 16:32, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Have you even looked at the videos you delink? In the Barrington Hall case, the video is not some talking head talking about Barrington Hall, it's a video of the actual building; it is by its very nature, a reliable source. The restriction on personal websites, besides being controversial (see the WP:EL talk) is also a '''guideline''' to the potential reliability of a link. The guideline is titled "Links '''normally''' to be avoided". It does not read "Links '''always''' to be avoided". The guideline assumes (not entirely justifiably) that in the "normal" case, most personal web pages are not reliable sources, but it does not ban such links. | |||
| :::::If you were removing video links after having examined them, and tagging them as copyright violations or irrelevant to the article, or such, you'd be doing useful work. But if you're just going through articles and automatically removing all YouTube links without checking them, you're vandalising Misplaced Pages. Please stop. ''']''' <small>]</small> 16:47, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| </blockquote> | |||
| :I have to agree with Fys above (and didn't want to miss the chance to say so). I think virtually all of these links should be removed. Any that are to be kept should have their inclusion justified individually. ] <sup>]</sup> 17:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::The particular link in the ] webpage has been repeatedly justified on ], but because of ]'s misguided YouTube deletion project, users like Sir Nicholas will continue to blithely delete every single YouTube link, irregardless of whether it has been justified previously or not. As I stated at the top, the issue is larger than the specific case - having looked at Dmcdevit's page, I think his project ought to be stopped until he can put in some protection against deleting previously justified YouTube links. As it is, he provides the information necessary to allow AWB users to find and delete YouTube links without any protection against removing valid content. ''']''' <small>]</small> 17:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::MOST links on wikipedia to YouTube should be removed. (Yeah, not all... but most). It is not ok to copy a music video, upload it to YouTube and add a link to it from an article. That’s copyright infringement and that’s basically what 9 out of 10 YouTube links on wikipedia are. I haven't seen the Barrington Hall video yet but, I will when I get home so I can respond about that link directly... however, reverting all YouTube link-removals would be disruptive and against numerous policies. ---] <sup>(]/])</sup> 17:12, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::As an uninvolved party, I took a look and don't see the problem with the link. I commented on the talk page of the article; shouldn't we be discussing this there? --] 17:14, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Just as reverting all YouTube link removals would be disruptive and against policy, so is mechanically removing all YouTube links without examining the articles or talk pages to check if the link has been justified. ''']''' <small>]</small> 17:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ] has stated on his talk page {{cquote|Unless the video's copyrights are exclusively owned by YouTube, no – you cannot link to the site.}} Anyone with such a blatant misunderstanding of ], ], and the DCMA should not be mechanically removing links from Misplaced Pages. ''']''' <small>]</small> 17:31, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::''Addendum'': Or if the user has uploaded it as free-licensed. — ]<span class="plainlinks"> </span> 13:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Neither do we entertain unreliable and unverified sources on Misplaced Pages nor copyrighted videos uploaded by general users of the internet on to that website; which is clearly facilitating copyright violations. — ]<span class="plainlinks"> </span> 17:40, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::WP:RS does not apply to WP:EL. --]<s>]</s> 17:43, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::We have two problems, first we cannot be sure that whoever uploaded the video is actually the person who shot the video, making it so we cannot confirm copyright status. The goal is more then just not being liable, but on building an encyclopedia with content that anyone can use freely. The other problem is blanket rules being applied blindly. Considering some publishers and people have put work on YouTube, to state that everything on it is copyright and can be removed is also false and quite disruptive. Those who decide to take up the task to remove an item need to research it and find out who made it as best they can and if it was put on YouTube as an advertisement etc. If the person is not willing to do this correctly then they should not do it at all. --]<s>]</s> 17:43, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::] does not appy to ]? Is that so, dear sir? I request you to ]. Every guideline and policy is inter-related in one way or other. We are here to build an encyclopedia, which is free-for-all and has free-content. However, linking to copyright violations and unverified research sites like YouTube – damages the reputation of the encyclopedia and makes liable for a legal action by the real holder of the copyright. Neither do we violate copyrights on this website nor do we facilitate blatant copyright violations. Period. — ]<span class="plainlinks"> </span> 18:00, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Correct it does not apply, saying everything is inter connected is like saying anything I post on my talk page has to be cited per WP:CITE. Most external links are not WP:RS if they were they would most likely be sources, wouldnt they? I mean think of all the home pages on BLP articles, fan sites on movie/artist sites etc. So perhaps you need to go read WP:EL, it does not say sites need to be WP:RS. --]<s>]</s> 18:44, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Egad. At least conduct a little research before commenting here. From ] – | |||
| ::''2. Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research. See ].'' — ]<span class="plainlinks"> </span> 10:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::I can see a huge problem with the video - it contains a copyrighted music track with no evidence of permission to use it. Also, there is no verifiable information to show that the uploading user is in fact the copyright holder of the footage. This is about as clear cut as you can get - it is a more than probale copyright infringing clip on a site that is reknowned for its availability of such copyright violating clips.-]<sup>]</sup> 17:48, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I can't speak for anyone else involved in the YouTube cleanup project, but I review the link in the context of the article. If it looks obvious (like, 10 min clip from The A-Team) then I nuke it(WP:C). If it's redundant to other links, I nuke it(WP:EL). If it's irrelevant to the article(WP:NOT), I nuke it. If it doesn’t provide any new information for the article I nuke it(WP:NOT). If it's being inappropriately relied on as a source, I nuke it(WP:V). If it's not obviously inappropriate, I look closer. I've found very few that are truly legit. The best I can usually get is "likely legit." So I leave... 1/50 usually... and I'm the most liberal of the 4 of us. | |||
| :::: Remember: this website is NOT a linkfarm. Our guiding philosophy is to make an encyclopedia. It is our job to make the articles great and include as much relevant information in the article as possible. Adding tons of semi-relevant links to questionable material does not advance our goal and it puts us in bad position legally. ---] <sup>(]/])</sup> 18:11, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::You have repeated this in three places, <s>and are wrong</s><small>my mistake - one of the two links has music, and the other does not; I changed the one with to the one without</small>; there is no music or sound at all in the video. Let's take this discussion to the talk page so I don't have to debunk you in multiple places. --] 18:17, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I have responded on the talk page. Please can someone else comment on the fact that there is music? I have checked this on several computers now, so it does have apparantly copyright infringing music.-]<sup>]</sup> 18:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I believe further discussions are to be continued at ]. -- '']'' - <small>]</small> 18:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Good point. "''This is not the Misplaced Pages complaints department''" ---] <sup>(]/])</sup> 19:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I left a talk message for ] who supposedly made the Barrington video, suggesting s/he GFDL the video and upload it to Commons, but that user hasn't logged in for a while so might not see it soon. I think the video is of interest for the article. It documents the subject and it provides a unique resource beyond what the article would contain once it becomes a featured article (]). There isn't a serious WP:RS concern since as someone explained, it's a video of the building itself, like a photo of the White House. I didn't notice anyone questioning anything about its content, just that it's hosted in a "ghetto". | |||
| I'm not a YT fan but I don't believe there should be any type of project to remove every YT link from Misplaced Pages blindly, since that's what the spam blacklist is for. There are occasional situations where they're appropriate and the deletion frenzy seems to be a bit much. We import suitably licensed pictures from Flickr etc. all the time without going berserk about verifying the licenses unless we have some reason to think something is amiss. We similarly allow totally anonymous contributors to insert potentially-copyvio text directly into the wiki. We should not link to known copyvios but we are also not in the business of finding every way we can to protect the interests of the MPAA. See: ]. ] 03:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :'''This''' non-music version seems fine. I do remember this one... I looked at it weeks ago. The argument at the time was copy-vio.... and it was. The music in it was a problem. However, this one seems to satisfy all my main conserns. I'll let others argue for/against relevence... thats not realy my main issue. ---] <sup>(]/])</sup> 03:23, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| There is no project to remove YouTube links blindly. A bot could be made to do that, but AWB is not a bot, it is a program designed for user oversight. Any editor removing links for it is responsible for what they remove. Having said that, the video in question ''still'' has no licensing information, so, while I'm not interested in arguing about it, and while I'm not going to make any reverts myself, I don't mind it being delinked. I'm not going to waste much time on this single link, though. The bigger problem is blatant copyvio like music, TV, and movie clips, of which there are probably still thousands on Misplaced Pages. Attacking the project to help that is counterproductive, especially for one borderline case. Giving vandalism warnings for it is offensive and uncivil, and will probably get you blocked if you continue. Part of the problem I've noticed is people who respond with an argument like "no one's going to sue us or we're not legally responsible for linking to copyright infringements"; no matter how true this is, it is absolutely opposed to the Wikimedia vision, to create reusable and ''free'' (as in speech, not beer) content. ]·] 07:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I believe you are being willfully obtuse if you believe that "(t)here is no project to remove YouTube links blindly." Editors like Sir Nicholas and others are taking the information you've posted, and removing every link to a YouTube page '''without checking''' either the talk pages of the affected articles or the videos being removed. | |||
| :People like ] and ] are correct when they say that '''most''' YouTube links should be removed. But most is not '''all''', and your project is encouraging people to remove '''all''' YouTube links, without any checking. Tom Harrison suggests that each YouTube link requires individual justification, but how is someone running AWB with the regexes you supply supposed to know that there's a talk page with 30k of discussion on why that particular YouTube link has been repeatedly justified? | |||
| :Ok - I've just my own question. Will you, and the people who are part of your YouTube deletion project, honor notices like the one I've placed on ]? I've placed it in a way that it's nearly impossible for an editor to miss. Note that I don't agree with Tom Harrison - I think the burden of checking should be on the deleter - but if people in the YouTube Deletion Project are willing to actually stop and notice that there is a history or justification behind a particular YouTube link, I'm willing to accept that it's up to the person linking to YouTube to justify and restore (once!) the link. ''']''' <small>]</small> 22:04, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Urgent -- Check Today's FA ] == | |||
| Someone has posted an obscence photo on today's ] and its talk page, as mentioned before on other FA. ] 16:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :If includeonly didn't remove the template from image links, it would be a lot easier to find and fix these. Someone care to file a bug report? I'll vote it up. --] 16:52, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Sigh. Still no technical way of preventing this except to protect all templates linked on FAs yet, then? – ]] 16:52, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yes, there is - run a checkuser on the account and block the sockpuppets (which I have done). Image uploads don't work for newly registered accounts, so the best way to combat this is to get the accounts before they vandalize. ] 17:06, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::One, that's not a technical solution, and two, that does nothing to stop sleeper socks. The template vandalism to the FA the other day was done by sleeper sock accounts old enough to upload images. So the answer Chacor, is no, not yet. ] | ] 17:41, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Is this the infamous penis vandal that keeps continuing to add his obscenities around the wiki?? - and I assume, on rotating IPs. | |||
| He must be hard to block if he keeps finding new IP ranges to use. Perhaps people could comment out his image with: | |||
| <nowiki>]<!---]--></nowiki> so they don't appear in the template. That way, we can at least stop him for now. --]<sup>]</sup> 20:40, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: Is there any reason not to just fully protect all relevant templates for the duration of the featured article's presence on the main page? Does anyone have any data about how much legitimate template editing actually occurs then? ] 20:41, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::: Per discussion I don't think anyone would mind... the question is finding an admin with the initiative to do all the protection/unprotection this would entail. --] 20:48, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I might oppose certain articles being on the main page if I knew I wouldn't be able to improve any of the templates they use while they are there. --] 21:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::The featured articles review page has a listing of what article is going to be on the main page each day a couple of weeks in advance. If this is an area of interest for you, you can improve the templates for FA's a couple of days ''before'' they will be on the main page, which would not only be consistent with stopping the vandalism, but would make sure the most people saw them with the improvements you introduced. :) ] 22:44, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| If I was an admin, I would probably temporarily protect the templates as ''<nowiki>]</nowiki>'' for the duration of the FA, and then unprotect them after it was off the main page. Seems a good enough solution, and would probably stem this 'user' from doing his obscene vandalism. --]<sup>]</sup> 20:57, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::If a category was created and these templates placed into it, and the community agreed, I would work on it a bit in the mornings. ]<small> <sup>(Need help? ])</sup></small> 22:47, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::I apologize if I come across as a little rude about this, but this has been going on for, I think, over a month, and is happening almost daily, and I've seen it must be 7 long drawn out discussions on WP:AN. This is reminding me of the group from ] where their friend is in a fight to the death, and they decide to set up a committee to investigate. Would someone just protect the lousy templates and run a check user? Most of the templates are the same for every article (e.g., transcludes on transclusions). -]<sup>]|]</sup> 23:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Your right, this requires immediate discussion, table a motion! (kidding) ]<small> <sup>(Need help? ])</sup></small> 23:44, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::What was there today was beyond the average penis of the last few weeks. Hoping some kind admin will protect all the templates makes no sense: something has to be done. ] (]) 01:42, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *I still don't 'get' what the problem is. Sometimes it sounds like people are complaining about offensive images getting onto the main page itself through an overlooked template... which would seem like it should be easy to prevent by just going through the templates listed when you click 'edit' and protecting each / unprotecting the next day. There can't be too many templates used in those little 'article of the day' blurbs. Other times it sounds like the offensive images are on the featured article itself... which just sounds like normal vandalism that we have always had and handled by reverting, blocking, and protecting the page for short periods if needed. Presumably there has to be more to it, but I've read three of these 'something must be done' threads now and still haven't seen anyone spell out '''exactly''' what the problem is. Like... citing the template that was vandalized? The username that did it? Also, why aren't people just reverting this stuff? If a vandal has access to DO it then every user on Misplaced Pages has access to UNdo it. Each time it seems like multiple people complain about seeing the image... why didn't the first person get rid of it so that the others wouldn't? In short... I don't 'get' it. --] 11:43, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| **CBD, in the amount of time you spent writing this post you could have done the research yourself and found out exactly what is going wrong. But since you didn't do it, I'll do it for you. For two weeks now we've had some image vandalism on our featured articles. They place images inside of noincludes in templates used on the articles. This takes awhile to figure out and remove from the article. In the meanwhile, hundreds of people are seeing disgusting and vile images and turning off a good proportion of them from Misplaced Pages. This is a ''huge'' problem, and it isn't nearly your "run-of-the-mill" vandalism. --] 11:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::. – ]] 11:51, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Heh, I guess I must type alot faster than you do Cyde... because I'd already spent considerably longer than it took to write that searching for details... as I'd have thought was clear in my original message. Thanks for the info and Chacor for the link. --] 12:27, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Interesting: on today's vandalism (thread below), I mentioned specific templates and users. I guess you didn't read the entire page. Why didn't I do something about it? I did. I notified administrators that vandalism had broken through, and a template had been missed. ] (]) 13:31, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *After some searching I found edit (see, a ''specific'' example) which apparently created the vandalism complained about above. This would not have appeared on the Main page and thus must be different than other complaints about vandalism there in another section below. The vandalism to this template was reverted, restored by another username, and reverted again within minutes before the template was protected. Seems like normal 'article of the day' vandal fighting to me except that we actually protected the template and left it that way... which we normally wouldn't do if the vandalism were on the page directly. This page used seven templates, five of which have been protected for a long time, one of which was vandalized, and one of which was (and still is) only semi-protected... but the vandal apparently overlooked. It took me all of a minute to check the protection status of those templates. If people really don't understand how to track vandalism in templates (which doesn't seem the case here as it WAS reverted quickly) then we could easily have protected the handful of templates used on this page. However, there is nothing preventing the same images being placed directly on the page and restored by multiple accounts in the same way. The only 'twist' to this seems to be that it may be a little more difficult to locate the vandalism for people who aren't very familiar with how templates work. If the problem is really as bad as people say (though in this case the offensive image was present for a grand total of 12 minutes and 11 seconds) then temporary protection as 'SOP' seems like an easy enough solution. --] 13:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :From what I've seen of this, it is vandalism of templates within templates, and sometimes something involving vandalism involving redirects pointing at templates (I won't go into details in case copycat vandals are reading this thread). Tracking down templates within templates is a bit more time-consuming, and as for the length of time: 12 minutes and 11 seconds is ''far'' too long. Huge numbers of people will view the page in that time. I would like to see all vandalism of main page articles reverted within a minute or less. As for specific examples, I have one involving templates on the talk page of the main page: , , (note the deceptive edit summaries), which is discussed ]. Previous discussions on the main page vandalism (there are lots of these discussion) include ] and ]. ] 17:08, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :13 minutes? That's hundreds of pageviews, hundreds of people who's first exposure to Misplaced Pages might have been an extremely offensive page. I kind of like to think we should project a better image to newcomers. The mainpage FA is vandalized on average for 2+ hours of its time on the main page, not even counting template vandalism, which does take a lot longer to fix. --] 18:40, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Please vote for to make it easier to revert this vandalism. --] 14:17, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Geeze, "The username that did it? Also, why aren't people just reverting this stuff?" Like I wouldn't if I could have figured it out? It should be pretty obvious now that with vandal patrols and the like, the reason people aren't just reverting it, like most simply vandalism to the FA, which often gets RV in the same minute it is created, is that it's not simple vandalism. Over the course of this vandal, Misplaced Pages has probably exposed thousands of potential users to offensive pornography, and these users will warn their friends not to use Misplaced Pages, to keep their children off of Misplaced Pages, yet it's been going on for weeks. '''''Misplaced Pages also needs to apologize on its Main Page for not taking this seriously from day one.''''' ] 18:07, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==]== | |||
| I believe the page ] has been speedily deleted, perhaps by accident. I had in fact nominated this page for deletion several times, but the latest article involved a different Kendrick Scott, a jazz drummer, who seemed to have at least some claim to notability. It looks like someone tried to AFD the article (see edits to ]), and perhaps someone then speedied it without realizing that the article had changed. --] 17:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Did you talk to {{user|JzG}}? He's quite reasonable, and would probably be glad to help if there was a mistake made. If he upholds it, you can also try ]. --] <small>]</small> 17:11, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==User:ALM scientist== | |||
| ] keeps vandalizing the ] article. This user deletes sourced material without any good reason time AND TIME AGAIN! Please help!!!! | |||
| 16 Dec: | |||
| 18 Dec: | |||
| 18 Dec: ] 17:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Have you tried talking to the user about it yet? I see no such attempt on either of your talk pages or the article talk pages, please look at ]. ]<small> <sup>(Need help? ])</sup></small> 17:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| # A sufi poet ] as holiest site | |||
| # That castle in Germany ] as Islam holiest spot | |||
| # Many funny like comments ''"Jewish soldiers at the Buraq Wall, the third holiest Islamic site in Jerusalem, itself the third holiest city in Islam, being on the '''third planet''' in the solar system"'' | |||
| #Another edit says "''Less than 100 meters from the holiest site in Islam, opposite the Grand Mosque in Mecca, is a surprising culinary offering: a '''Kentucky Fried Chicken''' fast-food restaurant''" | |||
| # Another edit says "Hindi couplets"/poetry as holiest site in Islam . It also say a poet ] as holiest site in Islam. | |||
| # ] as Islam holiest site | |||
| :All of the above were your additions and i left you the last warning on your talkpage and now you are here trolling and lying? -- '']'' - <small>]</small> 17:18, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I'm sorry, but all the sites listed above, except one, are legitimate. I added this material and ALM just deletes what he doesn't like. He also led the campaign for the pages deletion, totally unacceptable! I will take ]'s advice, and if he offends another time I will ask that he be blocked. ] 17:36, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Please follow HighInBC's advice and stop this edit warring. Also, please refrain from adding nonsense next time as you are an established editor. -- '']'' - <small>]</small> 17:41, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::It was my response the ALM's "trolling". At least ] found it humorous. ] 18:02, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Ummm! Do you understand what we mean by ]? ALM was reverting your above trolling in fact. So please stop that and be carefull of what you are editing next time. -- '']'' - <small>]</small> 18:06, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::He's got a 48 hour break now. I would gladly have made it longer but it's a first offense. <font face="Verdana">]<sup>'']]''</sup></font> 16:06, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Thanks Durova. -- '']'' - <small>]</small> 16:14, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| =={{User|IPutAwayaTener}}== | |||
| Can an admin please look at this new account and its contributions. Thanks, ] (]) 17:11, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Indef blocked. Too much trolling. -- '']'' - <small>]</small> 17:30, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thanks - I think everything that needs to be reverted and speedied has been now. ] (]) 17:33, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Troll or sockpuppet? == | |||
| Could someone please review the short contribution history of {{user|I Am Muslim}}? It seems most or all of what s/he's done here is vandalize, attack, and make bogus accusations. Thanks. ] 17:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I've left him a note at his talkpage. -- '']'' - <small>]</small> 17:25, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :: Thank you. ] 17:31, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==Kings 32 blocked== | |||
| I've blocked {{userlinks|Kings 32}} for some pretty nasty person attacks and . I'm not involved with the articles in dispute, and I've had no interaction with this user prior to my warning him for the first case. I've blocked him for 24 hours. Can I ask other uninvolved admins to review his edits and alter his block length as y'all see fit. Thanks. -- ] | ] 17:51, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Endorse. Although, I really don't see a need to post such blatant violations of ] on the ] to get a block reviewed. Cheers. — ]<span class="plainlinks"> </span> 18:06, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Endorse, but he still needs a block notice on his talk page, yes? ] 18:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == 75.1.19.112 == | |||
| Repeatedly vandalizing ]. ] 18:24, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Blocked by ]. Please refer to ] for vandalism issues next time. Cheers -- '']'' - <small>]</small> 18:26, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == LSLM - Evading Block == | |||
| ] was blocked for personal attacks . Then ] makes similar arguments and claims to be ] while LSLM was blocked. I reported it . An admin warned 70.156.143.221 . Later, LSLM was blocked for violation of 3rr rule . And ] has made similar arguments to LSLM while LSLM's block hasnt expired. . Then, after the block has expired, LSLM has returned and signed 65.11.163.243 's comments. . I also whois'ed 70.156.143.221 and 65.11.163.243. They got same locations...] 15:21, 17 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Note: ] which has same location with ] and ] has made this obvious vandalism. LSLM did vandalize before and was warned and reported . I should have added this to vandalism board but I think an admin should look to this user. He was blocked already two times before. And I reported him for personal attacks again ] 18:51, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Note 2: Also note his RFI report . Other suspected puppet ip addresses are listed there. ] 19:06, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Pay attention to this guy. He is always making false accusations. Just follow him a little bit in the white people's page. I and others are tired of his conduct. Follow also the quantity of problems he has already had with many users. He should be banned from this site. ] 20:51, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::No admin looking into this? ] 23:24, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Roitr block enforcement requested == | |||
| *{{vandal|Cariso}} | |||
| *{{vandal|Dfenu}} | |||
| *{{vandal|Kotvar}} | |||
| All sockpuppets of {{user|Roitr}} and all adding false information to articles related to Russian military ranks — see ]. For proof, compare by Cariso to from an IP in the same range as Roitr's ISP. ] 19:21, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I say 99.5% chance of sockpuppetry, especially given comments like . ]<sup>]|]</sup> 21:57, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == news from the front == | |||
| A edit war with sockpuppets and anons over ] it's on AFD now, parties creating templates to insert information back (see also {{tl|weffriddles}} history) and users trying to find new ways to sneak in. Sprotected for now, may want to look there once in a while. That's the incident I?m reporting. Coming back to you fred. -- <small> ]</small> 19:36, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == 75.41.208.17 - Admin intervention against spam == | |||
| {{IPvandal|75.41.208.17}} is pretty spamtacular, we're having trouble keeping up. Can we get a short block? ] 19:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I would point you to ], but as an anon editor, you can't report there. All the more reason to ]... | |||
| :Even though the editor wasn't ''properly'' warned, they're obviously only interested in adding links. 31 hour block. ] <span style="color: #999;">// ] // ] //</span> 20:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Actually, everyone is able to leave a message at ], not just registered users. So in the future, you can leave your message there for a faster response. ] <sup>]</sup> 20:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Oops, sure enough; the protection is just on page moves. I saw the "unprotect" tab and jumped to a confusion. ] <span style="color: #999;">// ] // ] //</span> 20:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Indef blocked a troll account == | |||
| I recently indefinite blocked {{user|Aughein}} for being a single purpose account used only for trolling. Note his edit to MONGO's user talk page and the pointless comment in an AFD about Misplaced Pages not keeping 'good stuff' like Brian Peppers. There were a few edits in the past many months ago that made me hesitate, but I think it's clear that no good will come out of this account. Just thought I'd leave a note here, though. <font color="DarkGreen">]</font><sup>]</sup> 20:22, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I'm not sure why his opinion about what the 'good stuff' is is relevant to this. ] 21:06, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I rejected his unblock request and another admin also agreed on his userpage. Looks like a simple sleeper troll. ]<small> <sup>(Need help? ])</sup></small> 21:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::If you had any question if that user was really a troll... I have protected that users page. ]<small> <sup>(Need help? ])</sup></small> 21:29, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Bunch of vandals == | |||
| Here are some repeat vandals. could someone please block them? thank you. | |||
| ] | |||
| ] | |||
| ] | |||
| ] | |||
| ] 21:43, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :None of those vandalized after being given a final warning. Please report to ] in the future (also, for reference, please sign your comments, so that it's easier to see when they last got a warning). -]<sup>]|]</sup> 21:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :You want ]. ]<small> <sup>(Need help? ])</sup></small> 21:50, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==Vandalism== | |||
| I simply could not find somewhere to report vandalism to an arcticle. I am not a user myself so I am not sure exactly what to do. | |||
| The article "Genetic Fingerprinting" http://en.wikipedia.org/DNA_testing | |||
| One line reads "The excess DNA probe is then washed off your dick. An X-ray film placed next to your mother detects the radioactive pattern" | |||
| I am pretty sure that is wrong | |||
| cheers -L | |||
| ] 22:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I'm going to go fix that. In the future, you can remove incorrect information yourself, just by editing the page. -] <small><sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></small> 22:55, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Already got it :) ]<sup>]|]</sup> 22:57, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Vandalism by ] == | |||
| {{User|Nehpetskenawi }} has been vandalising numerous . - ] <sup><em>]/]</em></sup> 23:06, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Try ] in the future. -]<sup>]|]</sup> 23:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == External links on ] == | |||
| On the ] article, ] believes I've treated them unfairly by twice removing an external link that they added, and the user went so far as to telephone me at home just now. Could another administrator or three please take a look and offer their opinion(s)? | |||
| ] 23:55, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Non-admin opinion here, but a lot of those links should be trimmed as per ]. Personally, I would only keep "Official Site of the City of Burlington", the WikiVermont (though it is not loading), and the "Maps and aerial photos". -- ] <sup>] | ]</sup> 00:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :How did they get your phone number? ]|] 00:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I do not edit Misplaced Pages anonymously, and my user page has more than enough information to make it possible for anyone to quickly be in direct contact with me. But in the interest of openness of the decision-making process, discussions about Misplaced Pages content should be conducted right here '''on''' Misplaced Pages, in full view of everyone, '''especially''' if they are regarding (or verging on) those things I'm doing in my capacity as an administrator. | |||
| ::] 00:35, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::User Atlant has been informed that this link is NOT chatspam and is includable under WP:EL Section 4., "Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article, such as reviews and interviews." | |||
| :::He has pointed out Section 10., "Links to social networking sites (such as MySpace), discussion forums or USENET." under "Links to Avoid". Since the link is none of these things, the rule does not apply. Since Atlant is aware of this, and has threatened me with a violation of for critizing his arbitrary decision, I have no other choice than to refer to this action as abuse and vandalism. | |||
| :::"Content disputes are never vandalism, and I'd suggest you not label them as such unless you want to risk running afoul of WP:NPA" -- Atlant | |||
| :::] 00:14, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :What was the purpose of calling him at home, other than harrassment and confrontation? ]|] 00:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| * Blocked for harassment. That kind of shit we do not need. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 00:20, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I hate to butt in here where I don't belong, but this calling someone at home is so inappropriate, I would think a 6 month block would be the best course of action, seeing as it's a direct allocation non-static IP. That's my opinion, and sorry if I'm wrong. -]<sup>]|]</sup> 00:40, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::sorry gang, but I've got a whole range of IP's to play with. If user Atlant does not wish to be called, he should not list his number. This started as an attempt to sincerely improve the wiki. Since Jzg (aka Guy) told me "fuck process" on his talk page, then we'll play that way. So, Mr. 6 month block, go for it, we'll play this game all week. Or, we can go back to being gentlemen. Your Choice. It's a shame wiki Admins ruin it for everyone by playing God, removing and blocking without discussion or concencus.—] 00:49, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::The decision to call him was yours and only yours, and the responsibility for it falls squarely on you. Whether he has listed it is immaterial. You grabbed an opportunity you should never have grabbed. ]] <sup>] to electro-pop ] from 1984.</sup> 00:53, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::You might want to look at ]. There would unquestionably be consensus for blocking in these circumstances. You're only making it worse for yourself.... ] 01:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Yes, the decision to call was mine and mine alone, I was civil, he was nasty and Zoe, what I wanted to to by calling him, was avoid this whole discussion. There was no harrassment, he was called once.] 01:04, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::That one time was one time too many. This qualifies as wikistalking, no matter how civil your intentions were. ]] <sup>] to electro-pop ] from 1984.</sup> 01:14, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::How is it harassment if the person in question makes their contact information available? --] (]) 01:14, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Because it takes someone else to search for that information and use it. It takes someone else to make the phone call. ]] <sup>] to electro-pop ] from 1984.</sup> 01:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::It is harassment if an editor, especially one that is having a dispute with the receiving end of the call, actually calls the number. -<sup>]</sup>''']''' ('']'') 01:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC)- | |||
| ::::::::... a number which is not listed on the user page (i.e., took an in depth search to find). -]<sup>]|]</sup> 01:21, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Copy that. Thanks for the explainer. --] (]) 01:35, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::So, it's ok to block my IP for disputing an admin, and ok for another admin to tell me he "is a rouge and fuck process" (that's a quote) but not okay for me to call a publically listed telephone and submit a concern privately and civilly? Nah. We aren't even dicussing the merits of the inclusion of the link anymore. Now, this is about the egos of the Admins. I think you'll find me to be most tenacious.] 01:54, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::You may be interested in our fine article on ]. ] 02:42, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::: shouldn't the link be put on the spam blacklist? save us a lot of legwork. --] 12:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::: Thanks, but I'm not sure this incident rises to meet the criterion "widespread spamming by multiple users". Regardless, if folks think this is the right thing to do, I'll gladly propose that link for addition to the blacklist. -- ] 20:35, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ---- | |||
| IP addresses used by this user so far: | |||
| * ] (Original) | |||
| * ] (Evading block) | |||
| * ] (Evading block) | |||
| * ] (Evading block) | |||
| * ] (Evading block) | |||
| * ] (Evading block) | |||
| * ] (Evading block) | |||
| ] 12:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == ] - Stephen Harper - Copyright conflict -- revert war == | |||
| This is a photograph of the Prime Minister of Canada. It has been listed since December 13, 2006 and no admin has addressed it. During the time that it has been listed, I have had to engage in several page reverts to keep the image excluded until the copyright can be resolved. Please expedite this review or protect the image page so these conflicting editors cannot continue to remove the copyright notice. ] 23:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| : The copyright has been established already. It is currently in the realm of crown copyright, and therefore rightfully ours to use. Permission was given from the copyright holder already. :: <em>]</em> (]) {{#if: Canada | | |||
| {{country_flagicon|Canada|Canada|size={{{size|}}}}} | |||
| }} 23:18, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Permission is not enough, it needs to be licensed freely per ]. This man is living and a free image could be reasonably created (FUC #1). ] 23:33, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::See ], and my comment about this particular image. ] 23:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The House of the Commons is a government organization with permissions held by the public. The problem is that ] has been perpetrating this edit war over an outdated page because of the basis Herman is supposedly the only copyright holder although I can't find my way to that page from the Parliament's site. | |||
| ::::This how I got to Stephen Harper's biography where it clearly states "© House of Commons" | |||
| ::::1. Go to http://www.parl.gc.ca/ | |||
| ::::2. Click your appropriate language | |||
| ::::3. Click "Members of Parliament (Current)" | |||
| ::::4. Click "Harper, Stephen (Right Hon.)" | |||
| ::::OR | |||
| ::::1. Go to http://www.parl.gc.ca/ | |||
| ::::2. Click your appropriate language | |||
| ::::3. Click "The Canadian Ministry (Current)" | |||
| ::::4. Click "Harper, Stephen (Right Hon.)" | |||
| ::::Also there is an email from Stephen Harper's contact email approving of this distribution as well. But ] is going ahead with no confirmation that this is not acceptable when other people have confirmed that this is acceptable. ] 00:07, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I agree that it couldn't be ]. However, the PMO wrote that the image is their's and that it is freely-licensed, so it should still be usable unless someone has evidence that the Prime Minister of Canada is lying to us. --] 00:11, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| If this email is forwarded to the permissions list, it should clear any problems. – ]] 01:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :As an aside, it should be pointed out for any that are unaware that the Canadian brand of Crown Copyright is ''not'' valid to release images under that copyright for use on Misplaced Pages. See ]. ]<i>::</i><small>]</small> 10:20, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==Main page vandal out of control== | |||
| Come on, this is just over the top - we NEED a new policy. Is someone working on it? ] (]) 01:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Excuse my ignorance, but what are you referring to? ] 01:25, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Same thing as ] higher up refers to, I'm guessing. – ]] 01:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yup. We don't actually need a policy here, just some admins willing to do template protection. It seems most everyone agrees it is needed. ] | ] 01:36, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::(after 2 edit conflicts) Where have you been for the last two weeks :-) The vandal attacking the templates and images associated with the main page featured article. The one that is there today is beyond description. Has no one yet found the source? All of the main page article templates are not protected. Is this the source of the problem? If so, it hasn't been protected yet. {{t1|Harvard citation}} It was up for several minutes. Even I don't want to keep coming to the main page if I'm going to see that, and I'm not a newbie. This is going too far. I've seen what the main page template vandal has done for two weeks, this is going too far, no one should have to see that, and there should be a practice in place now of protecting EVERY template and image on the main page FA. ] (]) 01:37, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Well, I'm not going to click on and read the main page FA any more after this morning's encounter. When I first read about it, I started avoiding the articles, then I assumed it had been cleaned up. At this point, I must assume the vandal is doing exactly what he/she hopes to accomplish: turning users off of Misplaced Pages by the hundreds. I would have never come back if that was my first encounter. ] 01:42, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Today's image was far beyond anything I'd seen up 'til now - I won't be working to help revert vandalism on the main page anymore, because a global policy needs to be put in place. ] (]) 01:43, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I know; it was just disgusting and I have deleted it. Just disgusting. Anyway, we just need to be more certain that we protect templates on articles linked from the Main Page. However, there ''are'' other articles besides Today's Featured Article linked from the Main Page, and so this could get quite difficult (not that ''difficult'' is a barrier to doing what's necessary).-- ''']''' 01:48, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::<s>What was it? o__O</s> --] 02:06, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| For admins doing the necessary protections, note {{t1|mprotected2}} and ]. -- ''']''' 01:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Thanks, Tariqabjotu - the kind, tireless protector of templates, but something more global needs to be done. I hope that was the one. -] (]) 01:46, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Would it be easier to ] all templates on FAs before they get on the main page, and then re-transclude them after that? – ]] 01:49, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Can someone add these images to the image blacklist? ] | ] 01:50, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I might point out that this has also been discussed ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and, finally, ]. Just wanna point out that we need to do something and not just talk about it. Although I think I might have missed some. -]<sup>]|]</sup> 01:51, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I believe it's been discussed just about every day since Dec 5 main page, ]. And yet, today, the most disgusting yet was up for at least several minutes that I saw. ] (]) 01:54, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Actually, from the template history, it looks like it was up for seven minutes. ] (]) 01:56, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Pat, and others, please... give us some credit here. Everyone has been trying their best to prevent this stuff from happening. No one notices when we prevent a vandal from introducing this type of vandalism to a page, but when it begins to happen, suddenly it's ''why aren't you all doing anything?'' Things ''have'' been done, but no one's perfect; things sometimes get overlooked. Note how several templates were protected by {{user|Pilotguy}} just prior to the 00:00 (UTC) switch. I double-checked later on to ensure all templates were protected. However, the common ones such as the ones vandalized today were overlooked by both me and him. But, no... that's not ''doing something''; we're just sitting around letting people add shock images to pages because we find it funny. Seriously, discussing (and implementing) new ideas for trying to prevent this is in fact a worthwhile exercise. However, the ''stop talking and start doing something'' attitude with no indication as to what that ''do something'' is contributes nothing to the discussion and serves only as a slap in the face for all the people who are doing their best (which comes down to just about all of us). -- ''']''' 09:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Stupid question - why are new/unregistered users allowed to edit templates at all? I understand why they're allowed to edit articles, but templates? | ] <small>]</small> 01:59, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::: They're not always new/unregistered users. ]]<sup>(])</sup> 02:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Indeed. Many have been sleeper socks with accounts old enough to skirt restrictions. ] | ] 02:07, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Ditto what Sandy said above. I practically choked on my tea when I loaded up the FA this morning. This issue needs to be resolved before it escalates into even more ... unpleasant things like goatse or tubgirl. --] (]) 02:02, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I've posted to the mailing list about this, asking for suggestions. Maybe some of those who read the list but don't use ANI will throw in helpful comments. – ]] 01:58, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| There isn't really a whole lot we can do beyond being more careful. If we need to put all the articles associated with the Main Page on lockdown completely, ]. -- ''']''' 02:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::(many edit conflicts) Is there a list out there of the next FAs to be on the main page, in sequence? ]]] 02:03, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::]. – ]] 02:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Only TOFAs up to December 24 have been chosen? Is Raul on vacation? -- ''']''' 02:06, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::No, he's around - he usually runs that tight. ] (]) 02:07, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::: I would also suggest a new policy- any sufficiently drastic mainpage vandalism should result in automatic checkusering of whoever does it and notes should be sent to the ISPs. Let's make this cost the vandals some time and effort. ] 02:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I think protecting rather than substituting is the way to go here because {{t1|mprotected2}} adds a category which lists all the affected templates and is helpful when its time to unprotect. Subst'ing doesn't create any central log and is more likely to get forgotten. While its nice to ask the mailing list for info, I think this is a serious enough problem that we need to start hashing out a solution now. ] | ] 02:06, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :can anyone protect ] and ]? There's also some others I'm not sure about: ] lists a bunch of templates transcluded onto it, but has almost no code (I'm very confused). And yes, PLEASE contact said ISP's. ]<sup>]|]</sup> 02:09, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| See {{t1|For}} - has {{User|THASF}} been taken care of? ] (]) 02:14, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :21:46, December 18, 2006 Pschemp (Talk | contribs) blocked "THASF (contribs)" with an expiry time of indefinite (vandalism only) - Pschemp got him. :) ] <sub><small>( <font color="Red">]</font> <font color="Green">]</font> <font color="Blue">]</font> )</small></sub> 02:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Here's the image list to blacklist: <small>Images '''not''' work-safe; explicit. -- ''']''' 02:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC)</small> ] (]) 02:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :After an admin has taken note of these images to blacklist, please delete my post above. ] (]) 02:48, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| All this talk brings up two good points: templates should be more strictly semi-protected, and semi-protection should be '''edit-based''' not '''time-based'''. No one with less than 50 edits should be able to edit semi-protected articles. After all, even our semi-protection policy is fairly strict, so I don't see one negative to making it edit-based (or both). -- ] (]) 02:55, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I won't mention how due to ], but it should be simple enough for vandals to get around a 50 edit semi-protection restriction. In fact, getting around it would probably be even faster than getting around the time-based semi-protection. Perhaps a protection mode could be made that would not only protect the article, but present a version of the article with templates included ''as they were at the time of protection'' to the reader. This way we wouldn't have to worry about forgetting one little template transcluded by another which is referred to be a redirect on an FA. --] <sup>]</sup> 07:13, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::"High risk" templates are fully protected. I think the requirements for a template being "high risk" need to be broadened. If it's used on the main page, it's high risk. If it's used on hundreds of pages, it's high risk. If it's been penis vandalised, or very similar in use and function to a template that has, it's high risk. ] is never that busy, and I'm sure a few more admins could watch it if the requests started to pile up. It's better than retroactively chasing this guy. ]<i>::</i><small>]</small> 10:12, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Go bug the WMF-paid devs. Where the hell are non-vandalized versions? That's the ''real'' solution to this problem. They were announced at Wikimania, but I really haven't seen any progress made on them since. --] 11:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Another developer thingy we should have to make vandalism of this type easier to spot and to revert is ]. Then we could quickly ] the vandal, checkuser and block his proxies, and hope he goes away. ] ] 12:12, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Coming in late to the conversation and there's a lot of it scattered around so forgive me if any of these have already been suggested: | |||
| #A bot that produced a list of the the templates transcluded into the main page, the templates transcluded into those templates, etc., etc. would be a good idea. It seems that most of the problem now comes from humans trying to track down a heirachy of transclusions, something a bot could do faster and better. I'm not talking about a bot with admin rights, just something to produce a list that some dedicated admins can go round and protect. | |||
| #Per Renesis - although it would be easy to evade a protection based on x number of edits, combining it with the time limit would increase the effort required to create a vandalism account. If as a vandal, I have to do 150 '''mainspace''' edits to get three vandal accounts for tomorrow, I'm at least going to have to spend some time thinking (and I might hit puberty in the meantime). | |||
| #Create a fully subst'ed version of the current main page as soon as it gos up (or before), save it and then revert it. That gives us a safe copy to revert to while we track down any vandalised templates, rather than leaving the main page in a state until we can find out which template of a template of a template we missed. ]] 12:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :You don't need a bot for the first item above. Go to the Main page. Click edit. Scroll down. A list of all transcluded pages is displayed. It doesn't break it into a tree structure, but it lists everything which goes into making the page. Cyde above claimed that the problem was on the featured articles, but you are now back to saying the Main page... if it is the latter then it would seem simplest to check the particular section the vandalism is in. If there is a penis in the 'picture of the day' you go to that page, click edit, and check the handful of transclusions which are listed. --] 12:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Unless you see something I don't, that only shows one level of transclusions, which means protecting sublevels involves clicking on the link of each template, hitting edit, clicking on the link of each template, hitting edit, clicking on ... until you reach the end of the tree. Repeat until all templates are protected and hope you haven't missed any (you can always check by repeating the process). Wait 24 hours, unprotect all the templates that don't feature on the new mainpage items...hmmm...probably best to get a list of all those on yesterday's list and then compare them one by one with today's, excluding those that were already protected beforehand. Doesn't look that simple to me, and the fact that templates have been missed every day would suggest it isn't. ]] 13:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Please cite an example of a 'sub template' which is carried up to the Main page, but not listed when you click 'edit' there. I cannot find any. My recollection is that the list goes down several levels (to the point that you will rarely encounter transclusion so deep as to not be displayed). So far as I know the 15 transclusions listed are the ONLY ones used... and of those only four change on a daily basis and thus might introduce new sub-templates. Nor have I been able to locate any actual examples of vandalism to templates appearing on the Main page. Most of the complaints have centered around the 'article of the day', but I checked that and for the past week it has introduced no new sub-templates. Thus I'm not sure if there really is a 'vandalism on the main page' problem. There IS an issue with vandalism on the article of the day itself... but not that I can see on the blurb for such which is displayed on the main page. HAS vandalism been appearing on the Main page? Specifically where and when? --] 13:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Sorry, I shall eat humble pie (although if the recursion of template listing is limited to x levels it is perhaps more of a hinderance than a help, as you still need to check through all the links to make sure there is nothing transcluded beyond x levels). I still think the minimum mainspace edits coupled with the time limit would be a good idea though - the time limit only deters the spur of the moment vandal,whereas a minimum mainspace edit count would at least involve more effort on their part. You'd have to be a very sad individual to run up 50 edits a day just so you could put a nasty image on an article for a few minutes. ]] 15:56, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Could do both... three days AND 50 edits. --] 16:30, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *Per a request above ] has been protected. Why? This is a box which displays a list of shortcuts to 'did you know' working pages. Obviously, that does not appear anywhere on the Main page. Presumably people are thinking that because this box appears on ] and THAT appears on the Main page that both must be protected... but that isn't the way it works. 'DYKbox' is displayed within 'noinclude' tags on DYK... which means that when DYK is displayed on the Main page the DYKbox is not 'sent along'. Ergo, ] needs to be protected to prevent it being used to vandalize the Main page, but ] does not. People need to understand how templates work, identify the '''actual''' problem (which I'm not even sure exists as nobody has cited a specific diff/example), and address that directly. --] 13:38, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| **Interesting again. I reported two specific templates involved in today's vandalism, and gave a site showing the images inserted. If this isn't helpful, I should probably stop trying to contribute - but since today's vandalism was up for seven minutes unnoticed (click the link above if you want to see how vile it was), it certainly seemed to be worth raising the issue where admins would take action. ] (]) 13:46, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ***I looked at the 'harvard citation' and 'for' links you cited and can see that they were vandalized... but not that they were transcluded onto the main page. What are we trying to do here? Keep offensive images off the Main page? If so then protecting 'DYKbox', 'harvard citation', and 'for' does ''nothing'' to accomplish that. Thus, I am getting the sense that there really isn't a problem with the main page itself and we should really be talking about vandalism to the 'article of the day'. Correct? If so, that is an age old problem that could only be completely prevented by protecting the article itself and all content transcluded onto it. Which is against the longstanding tradition of that article being editable to draw in new users. As some people have more trouble locating vandalism in templates and the new users we are trying to draw aren't going to know about/understand templates it might be reasonable to protect all templates used on the article... but that isn't going to prevent offensive images being added. They can always do it directly on the page... or on a completely different template which they then add to the page. We'd have to lock down everything related to that page for the day (either by protection or 'stable versions' when those are implemented) to completely prevent this. --] 16:30, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ****Yeah, I think you are right that we are talking about the article of the day, not the main page itself. It is an old problem, and yes, they can always add it directly to the page, but when done directly, it's likely that will be reverted in a matter of seconds. In the past few weeks, the template vandalism has often lasted 5 minutes or more, causes many more users to attempt to contact Misplaced Pages about it, and turns away from Misplaced Pages however many other users that we don't even know about. Vandalism that lasts a matter of 10 times (or more) longer than typical article-of-the-day vandalism is indeed a problem we need to fix ''now''. -- ] (]) 18:40, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ****Yes, what we are talking about is articles linked to from the main page, CBD, most often the main page FA. While it's easy to say "just revert it!", but it's obviously not that simple to anyone who actually works on the main page FAs. I know from experience it takes 4-10 minutes to actually find the vandalized template and revert the vandalism... since they do it in such a way that you have to look at each template's code. Discussion of protecting those templates in advance is ongoing. --] 18:48, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *****Some tips for tracking and reverting vandalism to templates more quickly: | |||
| #Get the smallest applicable list of transcluded pages you can. If the vandalism is in a particular section of the page then edit just that section... below the edit window there will be a list of items transcluded for ''that section only''. In most cases this will be only one or two. Note that you can also click on those links to go to the template... I use the popups script, popup the history from those links, get a preview of suspect edits in that history, and go from there... can usually find the problem in just a few seconds without ever leaving the original page (article of the day in this case). | |||
| #Familiarize yourself with the permanently protected 'high risk' templates. In most cases these cover all but a very few of the templates transcluded onto a page. If you exclude those it's alot easier. | |||
| #Look (or search) for '{{' to find the template which is located at the exact point in the text where the vandalism is appearing. That's the vandalized template. Sometimes difficult with infoboxes and the like if they are 'stacked' atop each other, but you can usually get in the ballpark. | |||
| #Don't look at the template code - look at its page history. If there are no edits to the template that day then you have the wrong one. If there ARE edits you can quickly get diffs and see what was added... if it is an image inside 'includeonly' tags then that's likely it. | |||
| **Obviously this would still take longer than just looking at the history and reverting back to a clean version, but it can still be done very quickly. --] 20:59, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Please vote for to make it easier to revert this vandalism. --] 14:17, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Why not create a static version of the main page every day(nothing transluced, all raw wikicode)? ]<small> <sup>(Need help? ])</sup></small> 16:53, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::I think CBD is right though. I haven't seen any vandalism on the main page itself, and I use that pretty much constantly throughout the day. The vandalism is occurring on the featured article. It is a static version of the featured article you are after, I suspect, but that would negate the "let anyone edit" thing. I think we just need more people watching the featured article and its templates. ] 17:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::I think HighInBC means a page that just uses no templates, i.e. everything is substituted in (subst:). It could be unprotected, and the templates could be too, but sneaky template vandalism would be impossible, unless someone added the template they vandalized, then it would be easilly reverted. Coincidentally I had just proposed something like this. --] 18:54, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Alternatively creating a static version, saving it and then reverting back to the dynamic version would allow anybody to edit but give a "safe" version to roll back to if any sneaky vandalism did occur. You could then hunt down the offending tranclusion without having it on the page while you did so. You wouldn't then need to reconvert the static page back to a dynamic page the next day (which you would have to do with a purely static version unless no useful edits were made during the day it was featured). ]] 19:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I guess, this just all seems like a tremendous ammount of work to add for admins just so we can get the 5-10 beneficial edits from IPs on the main page FA each day... which only ammount to 10-11% of edits by IP editors (the others are all vandalism). --] 19:03, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Agree with the sentiment, but again, it's not IP vandals - now it's sleeper accounts. ] (]) 19:09, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::: Hi Sandy (and anyone else who cares). I know you've contributed at ], but we need more respected people in one place to echo ''we need change''. There's no more "waiting for data" to be done (not to mention that various evidence that might help make decisions, such as server logs/user browsing patterns, will never be available); Misplaced Pages's reputation continues to be at stake, and too many people who love Misplaced Pages take dogmatic positions that actually hurt the project. I keep telling myself to leave the issue alone—"most people don't care"—but I can't. Something must change regarding TFA editability. It's not "giving into vandals". It's a business decision to address a fact of life for a high-traffic web site and article. (Does one not buy home insurance because it's "giving into fires"?) –] ] 01:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ===], Main page Dec 20=== | |||
| It doesn't look like all the templates and images are protected; am I missing something? ] (]) 23:17, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Which ones are not protected? -- ''']''' 23:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::About images... is there really an advantage to protecting images? Vandals could just as easily upload their own and add it to the article. -- ''']''' 00:13, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==={{t1|mprotected2}} update=== | |||
| For those admins tackling this issue, they may want to note that {{t1|mprotected2}} has been updated to allow the name of the article with which the template is associated to be added as a parameter (i.e. <tt>{{tlp|mprotected2|''name of associated article''}}</tt>). That would make it easier to find out the reason for the template's protection and when it is safe for the template to be unprotected. -- ''']''' 00:19, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Need answers == | |||
| OK. I just clicked random page, up came ]. At the top of the article was a large, practically full screen picture of a guy from the waist down, lying in a bath naked, doing something very unpleasant to look at. I refreshed, checked the code, the history but there has never been an image on the page. Clicking on the image showed a long list of pages the file apparently links to (including ], ] and ]) but none of them showed the picture. I went back to Dogfights, refreshed and it was gone. The Dogfights page hasn't been edited since the 17th, the day it was created, and isn't showing any deleted edits. I'm trying to track down the filename of the pic, it was a string of about 8 random characters. But seriously, WTF? It was there but it never existed. <b>]</b> <small>]</small> 01:50, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Aha. I read the above topic but it made no specific reference to what the problem was before I posted. Yikes. <b>]</b> <small>]</small> 01:52, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::The image was deleted while you were trying to track it down; hence, the magic trick. -- ''']''' 01:54, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Silly me - I just realized this means that image was on every page, for seven minutes, that uses the Harvard citation template, which should be quite a few articles. Truly over the top. ] (]) 01:58, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Holy crap. <b>]</b> <small>]</small> 02:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::The only templates on Dogfights are <nowiki>{{for|close-range aerial combat|Dogfight}}</nowiki> and <nowiki>{{US-tv-prog-stub}}</nowiki>. <b>]</b> <small>]</small> 02:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::: No, I think it was {{t1|For}}. ] (]) 02:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Indeed, diff . Google <b>]</b> <small>]</small> 02:14, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I didn't see 3QTFUN-5, I saw 3QTFUN-4 , which was a double whammy. ] (]) 02:20, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| When protecting high-risk templates, such as {{tl|Harvard citation}}, don't forget to protect redirects that are commonly used (like {{tl|harv}} for that one). -- ] (]) 03:31, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Please vote for to make it easier to revert this vandalism. --] 14:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Another Cplot-related issue == | |||
| Given the various circumstances known to readers of this board, struck me as a highly inappropriate way to raise the issue presented. The edit summary, though conceivably written in good faith, struck me as being taunting in nature and intent. Should an administrator respond and suggest that the issue be pursued, if at all, by other means? ] 02:53, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :It looks like Zoe, Tom Harrison and I have all left messages. ] 03:55, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Very good, thanks. ] 03:58, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Do we send this one to checkuser? ] 05:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *CyclePat is a member of ], so he is merely acting on behalf of Cplot.--] 05:51, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :* Pat certainly picks them! I might have a quiet word. He's definitely not a sock, though, I've known him for ages. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 08:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| I have blocked {{user|80.195.226.94}} for 24 hours for 3RR violation on ], but looking through his/her edits, it's clear that this account is on a rampage to make sure that no Jew could possibly be listed as English, as if there is some stigma with doing so. Very borderline anti-Semitic. After the 24 hours, this account bears watching. ]|] 02:49, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Actually, having looked further into this user's edits, the term "borderline" does not need to be applied to his anti-Semitism. ]|] 02:57, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :One look at ], and its a dungload of anti-semitism. I would have preferred a longer block. Good job. — ]<span class="plainlinks"> </span> 06:52, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Racist username? == | |||
| Hi, could someone please have a look at ]? Not only are his ], but I believe his name is as well, please see ] for further clarification on the name. <font color="green">]</font> 03:04, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Concur, will the first admin to see this please block immediately. Generally these reports go to WP:AIV but this one shouldn't wait. ] 03:07, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Handled. <b>]</b> <small>]</small> 03:08, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thanks for the speedy work, Deizio. <font color="green">]</font> 03:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == re: ] == | |||
| ], which already had an ArbCom remedy, appears to have reignited, this time between ] and ]. Discussion has spilled over trom the article discussion page onto ]. Accusation of ] abound. I'm hoping that someone with either some background knowledge in the ArbCom case, or a heck of a lot of time, can untangle the mess. Thanks, ]] 07:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Protected for now. I can investigate per the arbitration case tonight after work. There is also a pending complaint at ] if anyone else wants to wade in before I'm free. ] 12:51, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::The root cause of the pending complaint at ] was a request for clarification that I submitted months ago that was ignored by the arbcom. I re-submitted it. ] 17:53, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Chuck Norris vandals == | |||
| In the last two days, I've seen a number of vandals, mostly IP addresses, working on a '''Chuck Norris''' theme, e.g. Chuck Norris and the Kennedy assassination. | |||
| Here are a few I logged -- {{user|69.92.64.100}} -- {{user|67.42.163.59}} -- {{user|168.103.129.39}} -- {{user|Theamigo}} - the IP's don't seem to fit a pattern, so maybe it's just co-incidence and not a new trend. I slightly wondered if ] was up to something --] 08:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Whois on the ips says they're all from Idaho, so they do fit a pattern. It's probably some random kid who's a year and a half late on the Chuck Norris facts fad. I blocked the username as a vandal only account, not really much else to do here. - ] 12:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Titanicprincess e-mail == | |||
| I have received the following e-mail from {{user|Titanicprincess}}, a CheckUser confirmed sock of {{user5|Bobabobabo}}. I've removed the e-mail addresses for privacy reasons. | |||
| {{bquote|from Titanicprincess <''address removed''><br> | |||
| to Aecis <''address removed''> <br> | |||
| date Dec 18, 2006 11:29 PM <br> | |||
| subject Misplaced Pages e-mail <br> | |||
| mailed-by wikimedia.org <br> | |||
| <br> | |||
| May you please unblock my IP 72.177.68.38. It is a school IP and it is shared by multiple users. Its a home school. Me and my seven brothers and sisters are home schooled, the rchasemore@alumnidirector.com email is my uncle, he very smart with computers!!! We are supposed to use Misplaced Pages and the internet for educational purposes.<br> | |||
| <br> | |||
| <br> | |||
| We just want to start over and start a new leaf!! On the weekends we edit Misplaced Pages and surf the internet. That Bobabiba character is my older sister, I told my mom that she is causing trouble on the internet durning school time (8:30-5:00), my mom "banned" her from using the internet.<br> | |||
| <br> | |||
| <br> | |||
| <br> | |||
| May you please unblock my IP 72.177.68.38.<br> | |||
| <br> | |||
| Thank you,<br> | |||
| <br> | |||
| <br> | |||
| and happy Holidays,<br> | |||
| <br> | |||
| <br> | |||
| God Bless}} | |||
| Since I was not involved in the discussion about Bobabobabo, I'm deferring this to the Admins' Noticeboard. What should be done? ]] <sup>] to electro-pop ] from 1984.</sup> 12:07, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Nothing. Besides the sockpuppetry, is sufficient reason for a block. ] ] 12:23, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Keep the status-quo. -- '']'' - <small>]</small> 12:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| See the similar section on AN. Do not unblock. :) ] 12:34, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I suspect this is another hoax email that's going round. I'd ] usually, but there's something about this one... I can't quite put my finger on it! --]<sup>]</sup> 12:58, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::I find the image of the decent christian homeschooled girl in the above e-mail incompatible with . ]] <sup>] to electro-pop ] from 1984.</sup> 13:11, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Seems fair enough to me, unblock it if you feel so inclined and watch the user but it seems probable to me. I strongly suggest unblock. Last time I spoke out on an issue like this though I got blocked as a sockpuppet of the user I was supporting. So I will take the risk. Unblock I think and don't make links to attitudes and school people can act in different ways. -- ] Currently:--] 14:39, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::See ] for a gathering (]) of admins to whom Titanicprincess has emailed appeals. - ]] 14:55, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::An admonishment of admins? ;) ] 14:58, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I thought the term for a gathering of admins was 'cabal'. -- '''<font color="navy">]</font>''' 15:04, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I thought we were known as a ''scourge'' or a ''kaleidoscope''. ]] <sup>] to electro-pop ] from 1984.</sup> 15:04, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::: The term you are looking for is "bucket" as in "mop-and-�"]. HTH HAND --] | ] 15:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::: Ummm, I'm not an admin, but may I put my suggestion forward on how to deal with this user? I don't know if this would work or not, but it might be possible: | |||
| ::::::::::# Request a checkuser on our ... rather unconvincing ... friend, | |||
| ::::::::::# Do a WHOIS on her IP, | |||
| ::::::::::# Report her for network abuse. | |||
| :::::::::Any ideas? Cheers, ]'']'' (]) 19:38, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Looking at the history here, it looks like a Checkuser was already done and beyond that the request came from an IP, so I'm not sure what that would accomplish. The IP resolves to Roadrunner ISP and it's been my experience they are not exactly helpful when it comes to abuse investigations...--] 19:51, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::: Of course, if they're not going to be helpful, we can just ban that ISP from Misplaced Pages. ]'']'' (]) 20:37, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::The IP is already ...that is why this person is emailing admins.--] 20:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::: I know, but I mean the I''S''P (Roadrunner ISP) instead of IP. That is probably a rather drastic step, however. There's no harm in making an abuse report however, in the meantime (or is there)? ]'']'' (]) 20:59, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::Yes... that is a hugely drastic step. Roadrunner is a big, big, ISP and that would effect a whole lot of people not involved with this. If someone wants to make an abuse report on this particular IP they are welcome to... just don't expect much from Roadrunner...--] 21:21, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ===Content copied from ]=== | |||
| '''Block of {{IPvandal|72.177.68.38}}''' | |||
| Hello Schneelocke. I have received a few emails from a person who claims to be using this IP address. It has been blocked indefinitely and perhaps rightly so. However, the girl seems to be pleading not to block the IP indefinitely as she uses Misplaced Pages for school-projects and other assignments. In case you agree, can we unblock the IP for a temporary period, giving her time to register a username and then blocking it with an anon-access block preventing further account creation? That way, she can edit using the account, while her sister (who she claims has been trolling) cannot. Can we work this out, please? — ]<span class="plainlinks"> </span> 14:45, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I was about to leave a message about this myself. I'm not sure if you're aware, but we never block IP's indefinitely ''especially'' if they're dynamic, unless in exceptional circumstances. Thanks, -- ] (]) 14:59, 19 December 2006 | |||
| ::I do not think that this IP is dynamic. See the block log. However, the edits of ] were not disruptive. In case the administrator agrees, I can create an account for her and then send her the password. The IP can be blocked indefinitely with an anon-access block w/ preventing account creation. HTH — ]<span class="plainlinks"> </span> 15:04, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Although, this was disruptive – . Still, let us try giving her a uh... last chance ]. — ]<span class="plainlinks"> </span> 15:11, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| For the hopefully last time... | |||
| <large>DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS. DO NOT UNBLOCK THIS IP. JUST DON'T. ANYONE WHO THINKS TO UNBLOCK THE IP: JUST DON'T. IF YOU REALLY REALLY FEEL LIKE UNBLOCKING THE IP, CHECK WITH DMMCDEVIT AND THEN DON'T.</large> | |||
| ] 15:17, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Uh, okay. If you insist. But, I really don't see any problem in sending a password to a registered account, which can be blocked the very instant it is abused. They would not be able to use the IP again for registering new usernames or editing anonymously for that matter. — ]<span class="plainlinks"> </span> 15:35, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::The e-mail was obviously a shopping expedition. If the block weren't already permanent I would have extended it. <font face="Verdana">]<sup>'']]''</sup></font> 15:58, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::You don't need to edit to do school asignments, only read. ]<small> <sup>(Need help? ])</sup></small> 15:59, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::'''DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS'''. This one has been lying, conniving, and harassing our users and admins for months. '''DO NOT UNBLOCK'''. -]<sup>]|]</sup> 17:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::There are two separate threads on this at ]. Bobabobabo's use of sockpuppets is the reason for her ban. I asked that Raul654 run a checkuser on an IP that was known to be this user, and Titanicprincess was proven to be this user through a study of her contributions and uploads. I requested that he block her, and I went about tagging her creations per ]. The original blocks on the IP that she requests unblocking were blocks for disruption, and then when that IP was checked, upwards of 70 accounts of all the same edits were found. We have determined that this is Bobabobabo's home IP address, and every other address that she has been using afterwards are open proxies. For any information relating to Bobabobabo or this IP can be seen at ].—] (]) 22:35, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Bobabo has basically never done anything except create problems, and there's absolutely no reason to believe anything she says considering her past history. Ryulong could tell you more about it, but I just want to throw in my two cents and say her IP should not be unblocked, ever. It's not like it ], anyway. ] 23:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ===Additional persons who have received email from Titanicprincess=== | |||
| * Received 19 December (a yahoo email address) and have blocked the sender via my email client. --User:Ceyockey (<small>'']''</small>) 02:13, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == User:TheWikipedianFormallyKnownAsStarblindy == | |||
| OK I am really upset now after having my first account suspended for suspect reasons as discussed above under User:Starblindy I conceded that though the reasons were not all valid and my reputation had take a severe attack, I would change my name and continue. Now another admin Zoe feels the need to throw his weight around. Lets go through inappropriate usernames section of ]. | |||
| 1) Names that can be confused with other contributors - look if anyone thinks that a signiture TheWikipedianFormallyKnownAsStarblindy is the same as Andrew Lenahan Starblind has got problems, I see no way a below average user could get confused. | |||
| 2) Misplaced Pages Terms - There are none to my knowledge | |||
| 3) Well-known persons name - Know one to my knowledge has a real name "The Wikipedian Formally Known As Starblindy" If so I would like to meet them or at least read about them. | |||
| 4) Random Sequence of Numbers/Letters - This random sequence is called english | |||
| 5) Extreamly Lengthy Usernames - I stress extreamly while it is on the lengthy side I don't think it is extreamly lengthy, plus it is a weak reason and not the one given. | |||
| 6) Inflammatory Usernames - I don't think so | |||
| 7) Harassing Usernames - I don't think I have offended anyone | |||
| 8) With Non-Latin Charaters - No Problem there | |||
| 9) Closly resemble Vandels Usernames - No problem to my knowledge | |||
| 10) Usernames that promote a website or company - No problem to my knowledge | |||
| 11) Email Addresses - No problem | |||
| 12) Trademarked names - No problem to my knowledge | |||
| Be a hero unblock TheWikipedianFormallyKnownAsStarblind | |||
| PS: Don't say that my lack of edits shows I am a vandel as my past account that was blocked had 20 large useful edits. {{unsigned|User:151.204.56.2}} | |||
| :I at first when you were editing under ] username but i am inclined to inform you that ] is not an appropriate username as well (refer to ]). We already have another user/admin ]. So please create another username following the policy above and start editing. -- '']'' - <small>]</small> 14:49, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I apologize if I seem a bit angry but I have done this so many times. Now look here no one is getting confused between me and starblind I don't see any part of ] that indicates that this username is inappropriate. This is the last straw I swear I will take action otherwise. I am a constructive user and I shouldn't have to go through this. I have been victimised as if I am a vandel with the intent to bring down the entire wikipedia. If I don't get unblocked this time I will act the way I am treated. There is nothing wrong with that username and there is nothing wrong with me. I am sick and tired of trying to mend wikipedia into a useable resource while also being attacked by the so called "administrators" who were voted in from what I see to try and make sure that this project stays were it is now, a place for them to flex their muscle. I started off as a good user with strong belief that I would have a good reputation and that no harm would come to me. But I see that no matter how good a user you are you get abused and attacked continually in a relentless effort to stifle the popularity of wikipedia in order to maintain thier "club". The upsetting thing is that this wasn't the "dream" of wikipedia or any wiki project. But users have come in from other backgrounds and created a "boys club" were they can get off on their own "power". It all is sickening. Unblock me, for the good of wikipedia and those who read this, understand, it can happen to you. {{unsigned|User:151.204.56.2}} | |||
| :::You don't see anything wrong w/ your username but administrators see something wrong w/ it and it's been explained to you many times. Why can't you choose a brand new username among the trillions one can get? -- '']'' - <small>]</small> 15:11, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I agree with my colleagues. While a million monkeys at a million typewriters might someday type out 'starblind', there is no valid reason I can discern for permitting you to continue with any username that has any obvious mix of 'starblind'. I managed to register a username 1.5 years ago that is mostly random letters that miraculously has no similarity to 'starblind'. If you register a new username with the above consideration and make good edits I can guarantee that nobody will bother you. ] 15:11, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I was just going to say essentially what ] already said. Your new username at least has the appearance of trying to make a point; which probably isn't going to go over very well. If I could offer any advice it would be to create a new user with a completely different username and go back to editing articles. Like ] said, it is virtually guaranteed nobody will bother you if you do that.--] 15:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::: What you seem to be saying is "do what I say or I start trolling?" is that it? or whatever can you mean by ''I swear I will take action otherwise'' and "If I don't get unblocked this time I will act the way I am treated." ? --] 15:12, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Gee Charlesknight!! I thought I was been treated well. I mean getting blocked because of you username and loosing all your reputation, that's good, right? I meant that I would act like I have been treated. Considering how little trouble I have had, I guess that means that I would start writing long complicated useful articles again, right?? Here is one question did it fool any of you for a second my name?? Did anyone look at it and say that is Starblind well I better go off and give this guy another barnstar for being the greatest administrator that ever lived? Don't you think people are smarter than that? Give them some credit they have turned on their computer! My point is are as follow so there is no mistake. | |||
| :::: 1) There is nothing in the protocol that says I can't have anothers username in my username as long as it isn't something like thatstarblidisafuckingidiot, that would be inappropriate. As long as it dosn't confuse people and I am sure that it dosen't. | |||
| :::: 2) This has stopped me making various edits to wikipedia get this into your head. I am a constructive user you are not saving wikipedia by relentlessly nitpicking about my username. It dosen't disrupt wikipedia, stop wikipedia or upset other wikipedians. | |||
| :::: BTW if you don't like my attitude tough luck it was created in reaction to these events that everyone is guilty of as a result of letting them continue. I don't know which is worse, Nazi Germany or Misplaced Pages.{{unsigned|User:151.204.56.2}} | |||
| ::::::] wins again. ] 16:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Look my friend. We are here to help people and if you are not willing to cooperate than obviously we can do nothing. 'Till now you haven't agreed to change your username. You talk about reputation as if ''you'' were using ''your'' real name here and that would harm ''your'' electoral campaign! Just pick up any of the trillion usernames you can get and welcome. Further stubborness woudl not help this case. At the opposite, it would make it worse. -- '']'' - <small>]</small> 16:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Sorry, but if you're more interested in arguing with administrators than in actually improving the encyclopedia (which you can do as an anon), I don't think anyone will be particularly inclined to do what you want. Just register a new name that in absolutely no way, shape, or form resembles another existing editor's username, and be on your merry. Its not difficult at all. ] <span style="color: #999;">// ] // ] //</span> 15:58, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::You could always ] in order to help plead your case some more. --] - ] 20:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Actually, when I saw this user's new username, I thought of this essay, and several other WP-humour articles. Seems to me that TWAKFS was employing the same type of humour in selecting his new username. ] works both ways. Ah well. ] 20:55, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==] and ]== | |||
| These two users recently launched quite a big move campaign without any discussions or any provided reasons, please see contributions of ] (] <small>•</small> ]) and ] (] <small>•</small> ]). Please closely examine, these users names are not very differ from each other, second the newest "contributions" of 19d. of both users are targeting specific area, even more - these moves were made by rotation – when RobotF stopped his moving campaign at 11:34, RobotQ started his at 11:40. Please advice, do we need to proceed with check user procedures, because it is likely that these accounts are managed by one particular person. Really needing an advice from experienced contributors. Thanks. ] 14:39, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Can't they be immediately blocked under ]? -] <small><sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></small> 15:39, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| * Multiple undiscussed page moves and misleading usernames, very fishy behaviour indeed. Both blocked. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 15:53, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::: Thanks for quick response. But maybe we should also try to identify is it the same person. Because now he/she or they can create new account and misconduct again. So is it worth to place a query for check user? ] 16:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::No. Checkuser can't be used for stuff like this. The accounts are blocked now. If more pop up, we can block them. We don't need Checkuser. --]] 16:02, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Pretty obvious M.K. Similar usernames or robotnames (laughing). Similar articles being moved (Russia/Lithuania). What else? -- '']'' - <small>]</small> 16:12, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: And similar timing too ] 17:11, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Autoblock will take care of the person's IP, and that is all checkuser would do for us. ]<small> <sup>(Need help? ])</sup></small> 16:14, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::: I understand it was only block to an account. You suggesting that IP was blocked as well? ] 17:11, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Admins have the option '''Automatically block the last IP address used by this user, and any subsequent addresses they try to edit from''' when blocking an account. ]<small> <sup>(Need help? ])</sup></small> 17:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thanks, I like bolded text. ] 17:24, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| See ]. They have about 50+ images (of about 150 total edits), all which appear not to be used anywhere on Misplaced Pages, or possible to use on Misplaced Pages. They have 5 edits to article namespace (I'm not counting sandboxes). Worse, these images appear to be used as part of a website, as there is a 404 image and a "news" image and other such items. Lastly, this seems to clearly be a child/teenager so handling this with kid gloves should be mandatory. I don't really want to clog up IFD listing all these, nor spend the time listing 50 images, which is why I'm here. I'd like someone to leave a note saying this isn't appropriate for Misplaced Pages. They could also suggest taking a graphic design or computer graphics class. I say that not because of the poor quality, but because she (guessing) appears to have an interesting in computer art and it would be encouraging. I'm worried I cannot write a polite or neutral enough message. Lastly, I would want all of the images deleted per ] a free file host. If I do need to list all these I will. Thank you. --]≈<small>]</small> 14:42, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| * I'm on it. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 14:53, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| * OK, done. Anyone who's feeling warm and fluffy can go along and have a quiet chat with the user. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 15:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| This IP has been blocked before (it's from a school, apparently). I've just been reverting his/her vandalism on the ] page. Having been through a random selection of edits from this IP over the last month, they all appear to be vandalism. Could an admin deal? Thanks, ] 18:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :schoolblocked for 6 months. ] 18:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==Curious incident with a ghost block== | |||
| User:72.166.123.170 was apparently blocked, but the block is neither listed on the admin's contribution's page, nor seems to have stopped the user from editing. A block template is on the user's talk page ] but there is no record of it being placed there in the contributions page of the Admin who signed it. ] 18:34, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :The IP was blocked for one week on November 15th. Is there another, more recent block that you are talking about? -- ] <sup>] | ]</sup> 18:37, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::No, I'm just reading November and thinking December. Thank you for solving that "mystery" :) ] 18:39, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Random libel in vandalism == | |||
| probably ought to be deleted. --] 20:09, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :They're fictional characters. I'm not sure you can be libellous towards fictional characters. --]] 20:11, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :That's not really libel anyway, it's just vandalism. --] 20:12, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::The Canadian Prime Minister is a fictional character? What about the football player, the doctor, and the novelist? :P I'm inexperienced, so if you don't think it's libel, that's okay. There's definitely a real person in there, though. --] 20:17, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Looks like s/he was talking about the --] 20:21, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The comments aren't "libel" because they don't make a specific factual claim, but we certainly don't need them around. ] 20:27, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::'Kay. I guess that makes sense, doesn't it? If simple name-calling was illegal, the world would be a scarily different place. o_o --] 20:36, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == ] and friends == | |||
| I have run across several users who are clearly not here to contribute to and help Misplaced Pages, but only to leave each other messages. Some also have excessive user pages, with extensive ] violations. | |||
| * ] | |||
| * ] | |||
| * ] | |||
| * ] | |||
| * ] | |||
| * ] | |||
| These may be sockpuppets, a group of kids, or something. Per, ] and for disruption, I suggest these be blocked. But, would like if others agree with this, or if there is some other course of action we should take instead. --] <small>(])</small> 20:11, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :First of all, I think you might've missed one, ]. I removed all the fair use images I found, (although there may be some that I missed, especially on ]) and left them (him?) notes on their (his?) talk pages. Based on their contributions, I'd say most, if not all, are the same person. Seeing as at least two of the accounts have been used for vandalism, I think blocking all but one would be a good idea, with that one given a reminder about what the purpose of Misplaced Pages is. (Note: I'm not an admin.) Also, for the record, ] to be an admin yesterday. ] 22:08, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Rebecca Loos == | |||
| The bot, ], has made some bad edits to the article for ]. It has been removing the official site of Loos to put in the site for a portable toilet company. Could some admin please check on the bot and its edits? <tt>]</tt>|] 22:34, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :That's a very wrong edit (). Bot blocked and I'll tell its daddy. ]<i>::</i><small>]</small> 22:39, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ** Simple enough to explain. edit adds many external links, anti-vandalism bot reverts. Not too hard to see why. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 23:46, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == User Fourdee continous harassment == | |||
| See the ]'s article. User Fourdee is trying to own the article anbd deleting other people's contributions. I do not have anyting else to add about his extreme POV pushing along wiht some other users and the reiterate attempt to silence other contributions.. ] 23:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :<s>You are removing material that is apparently ]. Unless you know for sure that this ] doesn't ] this sentence, I don't see anything wrong with {{user|Fourdee}} reverting your edits without you leaving an edit summary as why the removal.</s> Followed the history of the page wrong. -- ] <sup>] | ]</sup> 23:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :It seems that you are adding information to a sentence that already has a citation. This could lead others to believe that this information can be found in that source ("Dealing with Diversity"). If this information does not come from that source, it should be in a seperate section. Based on that says "eiditng perfectly valid information shared my common knowlegde", though, common knowledge is not a reason for inclusion. ] states clearly that Misplaced Pages is about verifiability, not truth. That is especially true when adding possiblly controversial edits; it would be viewed as ]. Unless you can provide a ] for this statement, it shouldn't be included. It seems that Fourdee tried to convey this as well at ] in a very civil manner. -- ] <sup>] | ]</sup> 23:56, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Sarah Ewart == | |||
| She just slapped a suspected sock sign on Tom Blackstone who I happen to know has a completely different ISP from Canuckster. ] 23:41, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Is that because you use those different accounts from different locations? ---] <sup>(]/])</sup> 23:59, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :The tag says, it is "suspected that this user may be a ''sock puppet, meat puppet or impersonator'' of Ottawaman" which is exactly what that account is. I don't care if you're making the edits yourself or asking your friends to do it on your behalf, the tag is correct. Now stop playing games. ''']''' 00:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::We need a tag for suspicious and pathologically fixated contributors who smear others based on no evidence at all. ] 01:01, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Misplaced Pages does in fact have such a tag. it's on the users mentioned below. ] 01:03, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Should you be the first recipient of said tag? --<sup>]</sup>''']''' ('']'') 01:04, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Looks like another account just popped in and added a link to Sarah's page. ]'s only edit is to this page. ] 01:10, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ;Evidence... | |||
| * "]" | |||
| * "]" | |||
| * "]" | |||
| * "] | |||
| Compare the edits. It should be obvious to anyone. ---] <sup>(]/])</sup> 00:14, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| === Community Ban on Canuckster/Ottawaman? === | |||
| Do we have a community ban on Canuckster/Ottawaman yet? There seems to be a sort of consensus, but no true community ban has taken place. I '''strongly support''' said motion. --<sup>]</sup>''']''' ('']'') 01:06, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| * I think it's already been done, but if not, I '''support''' a community ban. ---] <sup>(]/])</sup> 01:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Whatever is going on presently, '''support''' strongly. '''] <sup>] · ] ]</sup>''' 01:12, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::'''Strong support'''; I lately see no focus in contributing to the encyclopedia constructively. Just attacking Sarah as much as he can.—] (]) 01:14, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::'''Strong support''' --] 01:20, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Is anyone storing these IP's to check for Open Proxies, etcetera? This seems like a concerted effort here. (especially since the IP is section blanking, etcetera) ] 01:40, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Please see ] for the ever-expanding list. --<sup>]</sup>''']''' ('']'') 01:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| '''Strong support''' with a view of contacting the user's ISP. Going too far. – ]] 02:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| === Rangeblocks in place=== | |||
| {{user|Essjay}} placed five rangeblocks, set for anon. only, account creation blocked, and expiring 02:00, December 27, 2006. There's a couple of accounts that were registered in the /16 prior to the blocks, and they are listed on the SSP page. '''] <sup>] · ] ]</sup>''' 02:07, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==Scooter036== | |||
| ] needs lots of help. Mentoring or blocking. He first came to my attention with his copyvio on ]. I checked his contributions and he seems to want to help but all his edits are poor and unsourced or copyvios. ] 00:22, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Potentially libellous comments on ] by ] == | |||
| Just making a report here that administrators may wish to moderate some of the comments made on the talk page for the article ] by Alfred Vella, a user who clearly has an axe to grind against his former employer. In the past he has made very POV edits to the article (eg. ), though he stopped that some time ago. However, the talk page continues to be filled with unsubstantiated rumours of "dishonest behaviour" by some of the university's staff; comments like, "The lives of many thousands of those who entrusted their education in the University have had their futures blighted," and risque remarks such as "Why do you not ask Ebdon what happened to the Head of technical services in 2000?" I would consider that some of these allegations could risk exposing Misplaced Pages to libel action. | |||
| I have warned the user that Misplaced Pages is an encyclopaedia and not his soapbox on numerous occasions, and tried to reason with him, but he seems unwilling to listen and I am now sufficiently exasperated with the debate to withdraw myself. ] 00:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| Yet another kid using Misplaced Pages as a free file host. 30 Images, and only images as user's contributions. See ] Is there another way I could take care of this, aside from nominating all the images under CSD (which there really isn't a criteria for) or IFD them all or bring it here or apply for admin and delete them myself (which seems the lengthy of the solutions)? Or is just posting this here probably the best method? Thank you. --]≈<small>]</small> 00:33, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I stand corrected. He's put them (all?) on ]. --]≈<small>]</small> 02:58, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Administrators ignore actions by ] again and again == | |||
| Administrator:InShanee accused me of simply "throwing accusations around," but frankly, I might as well not bother, because it is well established on Misplaced Pages that any time anyone accuses ] of something they are ignored by administrators. Here, for example, E104421 accuses Tajik of something, provides diffs and evidence, but another user who is a friend of Tajik's jumps in, just like they did against me, and accuses E104421 of stalking Tajik, with no diffs, no support, nothing, just throwing accusations around. Tajik simply throws around accusations of stalking, in fact, he is, like a classic stalker, using his accusations as an effective stalking weapon, and administrators ignore it. As I said, when I provided diffs, when I supported my accusations, just like E104421 is providing, I was ignored by administrators, in favor of baseless unsupported accusations against me, as is currently happening on WP:PAIN--accusations against Tajik are simply ignored by administrators, even after a proclamation of going rogue on Tajik, his incivility is completely ignored. Bias--pure and simply bias, Tajik's computer sophisticated and a longer term user, therefore he must be right and protected in everything. Again and again. I use Misplaced Pages dispute resolution techniques, and Tajik blasts me for them, and uses them against me, and administrators allow it, I support my accusations, Tajik throws around stalking charges with no supporting evidence, and administrators support him. It's nice to see that I'm not the only editor that administrator Tajik bias impacts so severely. ] 00:48, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Some of the examples on ] are clearly not examples of personal attacks. However, the third link, among others, could be construed as an attack, and, as ] had ''just'' come off a lengthy block for incivility/personal attacks, I cannot imagine what he was thinking. He appears to be a very good contributor, but enough is enough. I'm not sure how many people need to complain about the incivility/attacks before it becomes a serious issue, but I think three is enough, and have blocked for 48 hours. I'm also cross-posting this to ] where this is also being discussed. <font color="#0000FF">]</font> 01:37, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Someone please block KP Botany for comments like "in fact, he is, like a classic stalker, using his accusations as an effective stalking weapon". I've had enough of her nonsense. <tt class="plainlinks">]]</tt> 01:40, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Comments alone are not a reason to block someone. -] · ] · 01:49, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Isn't that why Tajik was blocked? <tt class="plainlinks">]]</tt> 01:50, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I agree a statement comparing a user to a "classic stalker" could be offensive. However, this user does not appear to have even received a warning, judging from the history of the user's talk page. I could be missing something. <font color="#0000FF">]</font> 01:54, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Possible, but I think he needs to be warned for that if nothing else, and someone new should keep an eye on him. He's hardly kept a cool head lately. --] 04:20, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Tajik accused me of stalking him a couple of times, and when he did, Khoikhoi ran to his defense, although I provided support for my accusations, Tajik never provided any support for his, and had evidence on his talk page of his incivility, that was available to Administrator Khoikhoi, that he was indeed being incivil not just to me, but to others, Khoikhoi ignored all evidence to trample me, or to "throw accusations around" to support Tajik. Tajik provided no evidence, because there was none, he was simply using it as a retaliatory threat, and has been stalking me ever since I did a copyedit on the Herat page, which he mistook for someone else's substantive edit--but I can post supporting evidence until I'm blue in the face, and it won't matter, and Khoikhoi can make accusations without support and it lends weight to Tajik's arguments because other administrators assume he is taking care of it, when he is simply biased against me, and against many other editors who don't approve of all the time and energy wasted at Misplaced Pages dealing with Tajik's incivility. Khoikhoi ignored my evidence in my accusation, provided none himself, and simply supported Tajik without evidence, while there was evidence to the contrary of Tajik's behaviour sitting on Tajik's talk page, in other words, Khoikhoi supported him blindly without investigating, or while ignoring evidence to the contrary, and without any supporting evidence--'''a baseless accusation without support made by an administrator,''' yet I get scolded for following this Administrator's example, Khoikhoi is abusing his status as an admininstrator, not only to push his POV on articles, to edit war with other editors, but to protect Tajik from the consequences of his own actions. | |||
| ::::::Other editors can't even bother to complain about Tajik, because they will get attacked, and then administrators just ignore the complaints, or Khoikhoi comes up and throws around accusations without support, and then administrator ignore the complaint, as if it has been taken care of. Again, Khoikhoi is strongly biased against me because I disagree with his tactic of edit warring without discussion on the talk page, and asked him politely to cut it out, and disagree with his accusations against editors without support, and disagree with his arguments without support, and reverting other edits without support, and Khoikhoi is currently bashing me for this. | |||
| ::::::Administrator Khoikhoi abused and continues to abuse administrative privileges to promote his personal POV on Misplaced Pages via edit wars--something that this administrator has been blocked for plenty of times, and never gave up, and now abuses his authority as an administrator to maintain and support his POV on articles, and his blind allegiences to certain editors, namely Tajik. | |||
| ::::::It is outrageous, but not surprising, given as much leeway as Khoikhoi has been given to continue edit wars under the quise of an administrator, and as much as he continues to provide Tajik with leeway to do as he wants, that anyone seeking to get others to look fairly at what is going on with Tajik, would be attacked by Khoikhoi. However, it is outrageous, and it is doing a lot of harm and wasting time at Misplaced Pages. | |||
| ::::::Why should I support my accusations, when Tajik doesn't support his, and even gets a boost, without support from an administrator, Khoikhoi, in retaliation for my reporting Tajik, for my copyediting an article (a copy edit that stood the test of time, by the way), for my not wholesale and immediately supporting Tajik in the lamest edit war ever going on right now in Afghanistan. What's the example here? An administrator who accused me of stalking Tajik without any supporting evidence? I stand by my accusation of a classic stalking technique, supported by an administrator. It's even been incorporated into dozens of American, Brittish and French television and movie plots--the stalker accuses the stalkee. And just like the TV plots, the authorities don't believe the person being stalked, no matter how much evidence, but do believe the stalker, without any evidence, especially when a self-appointed judge, who supports the stalker, comes in and points to the victim and says, "you're the stalker." Khoikhoi should admit his bias and stand back from issues concerning me, issues concerning Tajik, and issues concerning anyone he has displayed personal bias towards or against--it is simply not fair to editors to have to come up against administrators who abuse their administrative status to support someone they are biased towards--it creates a hostile atmosphere, not just for that particular victim, but potentially for all others who realize their complaints will be unheeded also, and they will just wind up being attacked now by an administrator (Khoikhoi), in addition to an editor. And other administrators should not allow him to continue to get away with the bias against anyone who is harrassed by Tajik, using his weight as an administrator without providing evidence or proof, and with reverting other editors without comment or discussion or arguments or evidence. | |||
| ::::::Khoikhoi supported Tajik's baseless accusation against me, Khoikhoi provided no supporting evidence, and ignored or didn't bother to look at readily available evidence to the contrary, Khoikhoi is biased and attacks editors whom he disagrees with, and supports Tajik no matter what he does, contributing to a hostile attitude towards other editors on Misplaced Pages. This has gone on a long time, will continue to go on, and will have to be stopped eventually, if it isn't stopped now. ] 04:25, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == More ]? == | |||
| I recently received this e-mail from a "LordPrincess," asking me to unblock an IP address. The sender states that his/her older sister is "that Bobabiba (sic) character" and that (s)he needs the IP unblocked as she and her siblings are "home schooled." What do I do with this, if I am to do anything with this? --<sup>]</sup>''']''' ('']'') 01:47, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :LordPrincess is a confirmed sockpuppet per contribs and checkuser. See ], ], and ]. Ignore any requests to unblock their IP. I did a good amount of work to make that blatantly obvious at the IP's user talk.--] (]) 01:50, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I see. Thanks. --<sup>]</sup>''']''' ('']'') 01:53, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::What about {{user|Magnetic767}}, who immediately after registering registered the accounts {{user|Yodawoman}} and {{user|Jediwarrior}}? ]] <sup>] to electro-pop ] from 1984.</sup> 01:57, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I just got an email too. I've copied and pasted it below. | |||
| <blockquote>I AM TELLING THE TRUTH...... I AM A CHRISTIAN........ I FOLLOW THE TEN COMMANDMENTS..... I AM 14 YEARS OLD. PLEASE UNBLOCK ME.. | |||
| Administrative note: This person has been sending e-mails to numerous people asking to be unblocked under various false pretenses. | |||
| Do not believe these e-mails. She is not editing from a school, and she could continue to try to be disruptive. | |||
| THESE ARE NOT TRUE!!!!!! PLEASE I'M SO UPSET....... I CRIED IN THE BATHROOM...... I NOT DISRUPTIVE. | |||
| tHANK YOU, | |||
| GOD BLESS, AND MERRY CHRISTMAS | |||
| PEOPLE ARE MAKING FUN OF ME, BEING RUDE, BEING UN FAIR, AND POSTING NOTICES THAT MAKE ME LOOK LIKE WHEELY ON WHEELS CHARACTER.. I AM A 14 YEAR OLD.. PLEASE GO EASY ON ME..... I DON'T LIKE THIS... MY PARENTS ARE DISAPPOINTED IN ME, THE ARE GROUNDING ME FOR TWO MONTHS, I GOT SPANKED WITH A BELT WHEN THEY GOT HOME TONIGHT. PLEASE ITS ALMOST CHRISTMAS!!!!!!!!!!!! MY SISTER; GRACE (BOBABOBABO) WANTS TO START OVER.. WHY CAN'T SHE, NO WHY CAN'T WE.... PLEASE May you please unblock my IP 72.177.68.38. It is a school IP and it is shared by multiple users. Its a home school. Me and my seven brothers and sisters are home schooled, the rchasemore@alumnidirector.com email is my uncle, he very smart with computers!!! We are supposed to use Misplaced Pages and the internet for educational purposes. | |||
| We just want to start over and start a new leaf!! On the weekends we edit Misplaced Pages and surf the internet. That Bobabiba character is my older sister, I told my mom that she is causing trouble on the internet durning school time (8:30-5:00), my mom "banned" her from using the internet. May you please unblock my IP 72.177.68.38. I noticed that user: JzG an admin wrote a rude and disrespectful message on my talk page. | |||
| See multiple threads on admin noticeboards and talk to Dmcdevit. Bobabobobo, what part of "fuck off" are you having trouble understanding? You are not welcome here. Not at all, not in the least, not even slightly. Go away, please. Guy ( Help!) 15:40, 19 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I also noticed that my IP has not vandalized. | |||
| <nowiki>==PRIVATE==</nowiki> | |||
| O.k. that Bobabobabab is my sister Grace, she was a "good" editor. She loves anime, Yu-Gi-OH and Pokemon. So she was trying to improve the Pokemon episode lists by uploading alot of fair use Pokemon images, she also was creating seperate episode pages, but the conflict started when A Man in Black opposed the images via discussion on the Pok¨¦mon Collaborative Project and change the template which included the images, so Grace created sock puppets to keep the images on the template, which User: Ryulong got involved. | |||
| Which Grace and Ryulong became enemies: | |||
| Subject | |||
| Re: Misplaced Pages e-mail | |||
| Sent Date | |||
| 11-15-2006 11:03:02 PM | |||
| From | |||
| Ryulong <ryulong67@gmail.com> add to black list add to white list add to Address Book | |||
| To | |||
| "Aywana Tokiwana" < aywanajp@lycos.com> | |||
| Listen. I don't care if you are 13, or whatever. Stop vandalizing my page at the Japanese Misplaced Pages. It's your own fucking fault for impersonating me TWICE and I got my user name changed to the one that I should have had in the first place. Go edit Bulbapedia. I couldn't care less what you do over there. If you want, bring up your ban to the ArbCom at the English Misplaced Pages, but then all you can edit is your case. Just LEAVE ME ALONE YOU GOD DAMN CHILD. | |||
| * 15:04, 3 October 2006 ( hist) ( diff) Image:ScreenshotPokemonEpi63.JPG (top) | |||
| * 13:18, 3 October 2006 ( hist) ( diff) List of Pok¨¦mon: Battle Frontier episodes | |||
| * 00:43, 2 October 2006 ( hist) ( diff) List of Pok¨¦mon: Battle Frontier episodes | |||
| * 00:38, 2 October 2006 ( hist) (diff) Fear Factor Phony | |||
| * 00:37, 2 October 2006 ( hist) ( diff) Battle Pyramid Again! VS Registeel! | |||
| * 00:37, 2 October 2006 ( hist) ( diff) List of Pok¨¦mon: Battle Frontier episodes | |||
| * 00:37, 2 October 2006 ( hist) ( diff) Misplaced Pages talk:Pok¨¦mon Collaborative Project/Archive 7 ( ¡úPok¨¦num template.) | |||
| * 00:36, 2 October 2006 ( hist) ( diff) User talk:A Man In Black ( ¡úEPISODE IMAGES fair use rationale ) | |||
| * 00:34, 2 October 2006 ( hist) (diff) Fear Factor Phony (RV every episode list has seperte pages for the episode look at the Simpsons, Prison Break, etc) | |||
| * 00:33, 2 October 2006 ( hist) ( diff) List of Pok¨¦mon: Battle Frontier episodes (RV every episode list has seperte pages for the episode look at the Simpsons, Prison Break, etc) | |||
| * 00:32, 2 October 2006 ( hist) ( diff) Battle Pyramid Again! VS Registeel! (RV every episode list has seperte pages for the episode look at the Simpsons, Prison Break, etc) | |||
| * 00:31, 2 October 2006 ( hist) ( diff) List of Pok¨¦mon: Battle Frontier episodes | |||
| * 00:30, 2 October 2006 ( hist) ( diff) List of Pok¨¦mon: Battle Frontier episodes | |||
| * 00:29, 2 October 2006 ( hist) ( diff) Battle Pyramid Again! VS Registeel! | |||
| * 00:28, 2 October 2006 ( hist) ( diff) List of Pok¨¦mon: Battle Frontier episodes | |||
| * 00:27, 2 October 2006 ( hist) ( diff) List of Pok¨¦mon: Battle Frontier episodes | |||
| * 00:26, 2 October 2006 ( hist) ( diff) List of Pok¨¦mon: Battle Frontier episodes | |||
| * 00:23, 2 October 2006 ( hist) ( diff) List of Pok¨¦mon: Battle Frontier episodes | |||
| * 00:23, 2 October 2006 ( hist) ( diff) Battle Pyramid Again! VS Registeel! | |||
| * 00:18, 2 October 2006 ( hist) ( diff) Battle Pyramid Again! VS Registeel! | |||
| * 00:12, 2 October 2006 ( hist) ( diff) Template:Yugiohepisode (RV) | |||
| * 00:11, 2 October 2006 ( hist) (diff ) User talk:A Man In Black ( ¡úEPISODE IMAGES fair use rationale) | |||
| * 12:10, 29 September 2006 ( hist) ( diff) List of Pok¨¦mon episodes (http://www.tv-tokyo.co.jp/anime/pokemon_bb/) | |||
| * 12:08, 29 September 2006 ( hist) ( diff) List of Pok¨¦mon Advanced Generation episodes (RV; back with images) | |||
| * 12:06, 29 September 2006 ( hist) ( diff) List of Pok¨¦mon: Diamond and Pearl episodes | |||
| * 11:53, 29 September 2006 ( hist) ( diff) List of Pok¨¦mon Original Series episodes (RV) | |||
| * 11:49, 29 September 2006 ( hist) ( diff) List of Pok¨¦mon: Battle Frontier episodes | |||
| * 03:12, 29 September 2006 ( hist) (diff) List of Pok¨¦mon: Diamond and Pearl episodes | |||
| I hope this will give a "Whats going on". | |||
| PLEASE UNBLOCK!!!!!!!!!!! THOSE ADMINS ARE BEING BUTTS! I AM A CHILD YOU ARE NOT GOING WITH THE "GO EASY ON KIDS" | |||
| JoJan <secret557@gmail.com> wrote: | |||
| Don't expect me to unblock this account. It has a very bad history. In Wikipedias in other languages this account would have been permanently blocked. | |||
| See also the discussion at : | |||
| http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:72.177.68.38 | |||
| JoJan | |||
| administrator | |||
| Misplaced Pages | |||
| 2006/12/18, Titanicprincess <jjohnson97@yahoo.com>: | |||
| May you please unblock my IP 72.177.68.38. It is a school IP and it is shared by multiple users | |||
| Its a home school. Me and my seven brothers and sisters are home schooled, the rchasemore@alumnidirector.com email is my uncle, he very smart with computers!!! We are supposed to use Misplaced Pages and the internet for educational purposes. | |||
| We just want to start over and start a new leaf!! On the weekends we edit Misplaced Pages and surf the internet.</blockquote> | |||
| Quite amusing, if you ask me. --] 02:13, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Strikes me as something I would write when I was 11, and had siblings getting into things. Nonetheless, this user doesn't need to ''edit'' the encyclopedia in order to ''use'' it. <font color="#0000FF">]</font> 02:26, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I got the same email. I will note that the jjohnson email address has been named titanicprincess, Jessica Johnson, and MrBungle79 in the emails I've received. It's absolutley ridiculous.--]•] 02:53, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Right, a Christian with a history of edits like and that has been given an enormous amount of second chances after lying before. ]<sup>]|]</sup> 03:00, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Home schooled, huh? Originally, it was their real school and Bobabobobo was editing Misplaced Pages all by herself while she waited for her mother to pick her up, and it was her teacher saying that she needed to be unblocked so that Misplaced Pages could serve as her babysitter. The Princess needs to get her stories straight. ]|] 03:06, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I could understand a second chance (or should I say, 5th chance, maybe), but the lying would have to stop. If someone can't be trusted to tell us the truth, can we trust them to edit Misplaced Pages?-]<sup>]|]</sup> 03:15, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Well, that's at least the actual text of my e-mail to her ^_^ as opposed to stuff like was linked to before.--] (]) 03:27, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::The e-mail I just got came from "Titanicprincess" and was pretty similar, except it contained "PLEASE UNBLOCK!!!!!!!!!!! THOSE ADMINS ARE BEING BUTTS! I AM A CHILD YOU ARE NOT GOING WITH THE "GO EASY ON KIDS"" <font color="#0000FF">]</font> 03:50, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::: His/her messages have some funny trollish tinge to them I can't quite place. Don't give in, and don't unblock. I have seen these kind of people before, and they're usually trolls. "Blocks are preventative, not punitive." In his/her current state, assuming it is true, unblocking would ''not'' be a good idea, whether he/she is a troll or not. ]'']'' (]) 04:20, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::OK, this has gotten to the point where we need to invoke ] and just move on. -]<sup>]|]</sup> 04:29, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == ] Backlog == | |||
| Currently over 250 candidates in the category. Nuke 'em~ ~]·]·] 01:53, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Impersonation of ] == | |||
| I would like to report {{user2|Lil Jon333}} for impersonating ] . This comment is a violation of ] and should be taken seriously. This guy almost gave me a heart attack when I read the comment!--''''']''''' <sup>]</sup> 02:10, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :An interesting seventh edit, I must say...a nice , as well...and ...and . '''] <sup>] · ] ]</sup>''' 02:14, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::And blocked indef. '''] <sup>] · ] ]</sup>''' 02:19, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thanks!--''''']''''' <sup>]</sup> 02:45, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == User left his password on another user's page == | |||
| I'm not sure what this mess is -- ], ] & ] are clearly troll(s) (Mr Misplaced Pages is the worst.) I believe new users ] & ] are the ''victims'' here (see talk pages), but its difficult to tell, since Ockenbock has clearly done some vandalizing. ] has posted his password . My instinct is an indef block for ''that'', but I wanted to check before I wade in and start taking names as it's my first 24 hours with the tools. Cheers. ] 02:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :That password is false. I think the warning you put on the page is sufficient. --] 03:03, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I've just been reading this junk for an half an hour. It's a bunch/couple of students, probably from the same IP (a school in Boulder Colorado) all screwing around. There's a ''lot'' of accounts, but so far they seem to mostly edit each other's userpages. (the "victims" I listed above seem far from innocent after a deeper dig into their contribs.) I'll keep an eye on it, thanks for checking the password. ] 03:07, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::See also the ] section above. I assumed that they were all sockpuppets, seeing as they (a), logged on and logged off within minutes of eachother, (b), edit eachothers userpages as if they were their own, (c), like the same videogames, (d), all edit from one small IP range. But schoolkids would also make sense. ] 03:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == User evading block == | |||
| Blocked user and sockpuppeter {{user|LorenzoPerosi1898}} seems to have returned as {{user|Don Porse76 Glen its me}} with edits at ]. The name is both derived from his former name and the admin that he has dealt with and been blocked by in the past, {{user|Glen S}}. I have been reverting edits by confirmed and suspected sock puppets due to ]-pushing such as . Also, there may be sock puppets of this user being used at ] in order for this person to strengthen their edits (such as the edit summary above suggests with "Read the talk page discussion!"). Case in point, {{user|UneJolieMelodieViennoise}} was created within minutes of {{user|InManusTuas}} and agrees with the first user and {{user|FriendOfCatholicMusic}}, who was also created just hours before. Would an admin please take a look at this and assess about the possibility of idenfite ban evasion going on here? Thanks! -- ] <sup>] | ]</sup> 02:29, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Another seems to have popped up; {{user|Glen wess}}. Reverts with summary "edits by a mad man." -- ] <sup>] | ]</sup> 02:32, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Agree with ], looks like an indefinite ban evasion going on. ] 02:36, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Some more: | |||
| *{{user|Gleneessw}} | |||
| *{{user|Glen dfeww}} | |||
| -- ] <sup>] | ]</sup> 02:52, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Moved from ] == | |||
| *{{vandal|Made of people}} This user is the banned ]. See ] as well as ] (I fully expect this addition to be reverted per this user's past behavior). {{User:Netscott/s1.js}} 01:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Also read ] before taking any action. ] 01:58, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::] to being sockpuppet of this banned user. {{User:Netscott/s1.js}} 02:20, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Does he recant his past actions? --<sup>]</sup>''']''' ('']'') 02:21, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::At this point this user has been independently permabanned under both the name ] as well as ]. This user is bad news and these previous bannings need enforcement. {{User:Netscott/s1.js}} 02:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I understand your concerns. However, it is my inclination to apply ] on this instance and see if he will edit constructively. Unless such a venture is impossible or carries the implication of opposition strong enough to dissuade me, I will do such. This course of action, of course, does not disallow me, you, or anyone to block this user if he falls back into his past actions. --<sup>]</sup>''']''' ('']'') 02:27, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::This user has been blocked by ], ], ], ], etc. etc. ] the time for AGFing is long since over. {{User:Netscott/s1.js}} 02:31, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Those blocks were all for being a sock puppet, and not for the original vandalizing offense. ] 02:35, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ] this user originally then ] this user for fair use violations then based upon ] ] blocked this user for an extended period of time and then when the sockpuppet nature of the user became apparent (when he again socked during her fair use block of him) she permabanned him. This user is bad news and User:Drini's original permaban should be enforced. {{User:Netscott/s1.js}} 02:44, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Sorry, this is an obvious sock of a banned user being used to evade a block. The original did a bit more than fair use violation. He inserted racial slurs and other unpleasantries. Blocked indef. ] | ] 02:44, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :If the user promises up and down to reform himself and crosses his heart in a pledge to not mess around anymore, I don't see the problem with unblocking. Kids grow up. The whole point of the multiple warning system we have is to give a user a second chance. -]<sup>]|]</sup> 03:11, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::No, this user has repeatedly ] in a very disruptive fashion. The time for second chances is long since over. {{User:Netscott/s1.js}} 03:25, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::I don't see why you are unwilling to let others give this user a second chance. No one is asking that you have to deal with him. I advocate an unblock of this user, with a concession: that this user be indefinitely blocked, if not banned, if he further engages in the disruptive acts that he has recanted. --<sup>]</sup>''']''' ('']'') 04:24, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == A sockpuppet/meatpuppeting case that does not seem to qualify as checkuser... == | |||
| Not sure how to handle this, but it seems to clearly be not right; http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Suspected_sock_puppets/BryanFromPalatine | |||
| In fact, in addition to what seem to be the addresses clustered in Bryan's home town of Palatine, we also have a large number of folks the recruited trying to prevent established wikipedia editors from achieving consensus on the ] articles. I wish somebody would at least look at this. --] 03:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Probable ] account == | |||
| With all of the nonsense going about with ], I found {{checkuser|Herman Chung}} (the name of the person possibly holding the copyright on the photo) making a personal attack against Alan.ca for his fervor in finding the true copyright holder. | |||
| I have reason to believe that Herman Chung is a sockpuppet of {{checkuser|ViriiK}}, the main person in the dispute right now who is not {{checkuser|Alan.ca}} and who is making a big deal about it (Arctic Gnome and Colin Keighter aren't doing much else about it). Since this doesn't really fit under ], I am requesting it done here.—] (]) 04:00, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Block to force the account to give a reasonable explanation regarding their concerns. There is no reason to introduce or prolong this sockpuppet ambiguity in the dispute. Just be professional; if the account is legitimate, it should be reciprocated. The explanation regarding that image should be transparent, and not long drawn. --] 04:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Obvious enough for ]. Immediately block. Hopefully, then, the autoblock will take effect long enough to hurt the sockpuppeteer. Or should can we do ]? -]<sup>]|]</sup> 04:21, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
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Cross-wiki harassment and transphobia from User:DarwIn
User:DarwIn, a known transphobic editor from pt.wiki, is harassing me here after his actions led me to leave that wiki permanently. He has also harassed me on Wikimedia Commons. I don't know what to do anymore. I just want to edit about transgender topics in peace. This is severely impacting my mental health. Skyshiftertalk 13:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You don't seem to have notified the other editor. This is mandatory and this section may be closed if you fail to do so. Use {{subst:ANI-notice}}~~~~ on that user's talk page. Additionally, you don't seem to have provided specific diffs demonstrating harassment. Please do so. --Yamla (talk) 13:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- On pt.wiki, DarwIn proposed the deletion of articles I created about transgender topics (Thamirys Nunes and Minha Criança Trans), using transphobic arguments, including misgendering and questioning the validity of transgender children. After translating these articles to en.wiki, he is targeting the DYK nomination, again focusing on his personal transphobic beliefs - as it shows, he doesn't even know how DYK works. He insisted multiple times trying to include his transphobic comment on that page and has just edited it again. On Commons, for extra context, DarwIn unilaterally deleted images related to these articles, despite being clearly involved in the dispute.
- Again, I just want to collaborate with trans topics in peace. Skyshiftertalk 13:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- We can't help you with pt.wikipedia.org or with commons, only with en.wikipedia.org. Please provide specific diffs for en.wikipedia.org. --Yamla (talk) 13:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Yes. However, context is important. This is harassment that began on pt.wiki, has spread to Commons, and is now here. The history has been provided, but, sure, I can provide the diffs instead. He has unilaterally edited the DYK page and put a "disagree", despite this being not how DYK works. This is because he really doesn't know, as he only sporadically edits here and only came back to harass me. His comment is explicitly transphobic and doesn't focus on the article itself at all. After his comment was reverted by me, he insisted saying that I shouldn't call it transphobia, despite it being transphobia. After being reverted again, he reincluded the comment. I asked him to stop harassing me, but he has edited the page again.
- I just don't want to be targeted by that editor here. I've left pt.wiki in great part for that reason. I just want to edit about transgender topics in peace here. Skyshiftertalk 13:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- We can't help you with pt.wikipedia.org or with commons, only with en.wikipedia.org. Please provide specific diffs for en.wikipedia.org. --Yamla (talk) 13:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Looks like yet another cross-wiki troll by this user. Already blocked at the Portuguese Wikipédia and Wikimedia Commons, the account is now promoting their POV here, including spreading lies, hideous slurs and baseless accusations against me like "known transphobic", after two of their creations were taken to community evaluation at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for lacking notability. The user is also a known sockpuppeter, with an open case for sockpuppetry at the Portuguese Wikipédia. In any case, I'm not interested in pursuing this case in yet another project apart from the strictly needed, so do as you please. Darwin 13:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I have been blocked on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for contesting that transphobia was called "valid criticism" on ANI and on Commons for literally nothing. Skyshiftertalk 13:28, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Questioning a women that declared her 4 year old son as trangender after he refused to play with cars and Marvel puppets and preferred what his mother calls "girl stuff" doesn't fit in any reasonable definition of transphobia, a word which you are well known for abusing whenever anyone criticizes you at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages and elsewhere. In any case, I don't think this is the place for this discussion, so this will be my last direct answer to you you'll see in this board. Darwin 13:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- And here's explicit transphobia. It's her daughter, no matter how much you hate the idea of trans children existing. The story you've told is also completely distorted. Skyshiftertalk 13:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Questioning a women that declared her 4 year old son as trangender after he refused to play with cars and Marvel puppets and preferred what his mother calls "girl stuff" doesn't fit in any reasonable definition of transphobia, a word which you are well known for abusing whenever anyone criticizes you at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages and elsewhere. In any case, I don't think this is the place for this discussion, so this will be my last direct answer to you you'll see in this board. Darwin 13:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I have been blocked on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for contesting that transphobia was called "valid criticism" on ANI and on Commons for literally nothing. Skyshiftertalk 13:28, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Comment I simply don't want this editor targeting me with transphobic stuff here after he target me on pt.wiki (and left it permanently in great part for that reason) and Commons. I am considering taking medication because of these events. Skyshiftertalk 13:45, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Comment I would suggest Darwin review MOS:GENDERID. If the child uses she/her pronouns we should not be referring to her with he/him pronouns. Simonm223 (talk) 15:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 I would suggest you to recall we ate talking about a 4 year child whose social gender was chosen by their mother after the child refused to play with what she calls "boy toys", such as toy cars and Marvel puppets. If that's not enough that this kind of gender prejudice was already abhorrent and condemned even in the generation of my babyboomer parents, one of the first things we teached as LGBT activists in the 1990s was that our parents don't own us nor our sexuality or our gender. So please let's refrain from doing that kind of suggestions when what is in question is the gender identity of a 4 year old attributed by their mother. Ok? Darwin 15:29, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn, the bottom line is that you don't get to question that. As a complete stranger to that child you have no right to do so, plus this is not the place to even enter into that discussion. How does complete strangers on the internet talking about a child's gender do them any good? This isn't the place anyway so please just follow guidelines, which have been put in place for a good reason. Blue Sonnet (talk) 15:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I questioned the mother, not the child. I've no idea why we are discussing this here, anyway. Darwin 15:42, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- We're here because this "questioning" appears to be bleeding into transphobic harassment. I would support an indef based on edits like this Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I questioned the mother, not the child. I've no idea why we are discussing this here, anyway. Darwin 15:42, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn, the bottom line is that you don't get to question that. As a complete stranger to that child you have no right to do so, plus this is not the place to even enter into that discussion. How does complete strangers on the internet talking about a child's gender do them any good? This isn't the place anyway so please just follow guidelines, which have been put in place for a good reason. Blue Sonnet (talk) 15:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- The story told above is completely distorted to fit the transphobic's narrative. Simon223, if you want to get the full story, read Thamirys Nunes' page or read its sources (with the help of a translator if needed). Skyshiftertalk 15:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would like to suggest we follow MOS regardless of people's personal opinion of early childhood gender expression. Simonm223 (talk) 15:38, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Rephrase that as mothers opinions on their 4 year old baby gender expression. Darwin 15:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Darwin - I suggest you drop whatever agenda you have, treat other editors with respect, and comply with our MOS (including MOS:GENDERID) - otherwise you will be blocked. GiantSnowman 15:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so. Darwin 16:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Just so everyone knows, the facts are being quite distorted here. It wasn't really an imposition — her daughter, did not want to play with "boy toys", even when being forced by her mom. That's why the mom said she plays with "girl toys" and everything else. The references on said articles weren't thoroughly read, apparently by everybody here.
- Adding to this too: DarwIn, in some edits to the article in the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, added "quotes" on the word trans and some other parts of the articly, as if was his duty to judge if the girl is trans or not. Anyways, I think what happened in ptwiki stays there.
- And I want to make clear that I'm only stating the things that happened so everyone knows. I do not support blocking him. Eduardo G. 16:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so. Darwin 16:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Four year olds are generally not considered babies. You really need to drop this - and probably to avoid editing in the WP:GENSEX area.Simonm223 (talk) 16:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would suggest a topic ban is imposed. GiantSnowman 16:09, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would support a topic ban from WP:GENSEX. Simonm223 (talk) 16:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Given that much of what they've been saying is about living people I think we would need to expand this to at least cover all other BLPs until such a time as they have demonstrated that they actually understand that the BLP policy applies to non-article spaces on wiki as well as articles. Overall this seems more like NOTHERE than something which a topic ban can remedy. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Topic ban from GENSEX and BLP, broadly construed, is fine for me. GiantSnowman 16:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I do understand this Misplaced Pages rules on BLP. Isn't that not enough for you? Darwin 16:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Given your comments here and at DYK, you clearly do not. GiantSnowman 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You seem to have missed the part when I very clearly stated there that I retired myself from that DYN debate. Darwin 16:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Given your comments here and at DYK, you clearly do not. GiantSnowman 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Given that much of what they've been saying is about living people I think we would need to expand this to at least cover all other BLPs until such a time as they have demonstrated that they actually understand that the BLP policy applies to non-article spaces on wiki as well as articles. Overall this seems more like NOTHERE than something which a topic ban can remedy. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @GiantSnowman nice try, but I don't edit on that topic, anyway. Let's calm down and enjoy the Christmas season. Darwin 16:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- This is the opposite of the attitude you need to adopt if you want to remain an editor in good standing. Remeber if you didn't edit on that topic we wouldn't be having this discussion, we're here because of edits you made in that topic area. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Then get your facts right, as I never edited any biography on that topic here, at least that I can recall. Darwin 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You fundementally misunderstand the scope of WP:BLP and the concept of topic area as well. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Look, I'm at a family gathering and I really have nor time nor patience for this kind of endless debates, specially on culture wars topics. I've already retired from DYN yesterday but you seem to insist on pursuing this kind of Salem witch hunting here, but really, I'll not be anymore part of that. Roger and over, happy new year. Darwin 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think you may be getting different editors confused, I was not a participant at DYN. I did not pursue you to here. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- it was a collective you. Darwin 16:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- The collective you did not pursue you here either. Only the OP appears to cross over. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- it was a collective you. Darwin 16:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think you may be getting different editors confused, I was not a participant at DYN. I did not pursue you to here. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Look, I'm at a family gathering and I really have nor time nor patience for this kind of endless debates, specially on culture wars topics. I've already retired from DYN yesterday but you seem to insist on pursuing this kind of Salem witch hunting here, but really, I'll not be anymore part of that. Roger and over, happy new year. Darwin 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You fundementally misunderstand the scope of WP:BLP and the concept of topic area as well. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Then get your facts right, as I never edited any biography on that topic here, at least that I can recall. Darwin 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- This is the opposite of the attitude you need to adopt if you want to remain an editor in good standing. Remeber if you didn't edit on that topic we wouldn't be having this discussion, we're here because of edits you made in that topic area. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would support a topic ban from WP:GENSEX. Simonm223 (talk) 16:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I noticed this yesterday but intentionally didn't mention it since I felt there had already been enough nonsense. But since DarwIn is still defending their offensive comments below, I'd note that the child was 4 years old in 2019. It's now 2024 and they've evidentally seen a medical professional. If at any time they express a desire for a different gender identity we will of course respect that whatever her mother says; but at this time BLP full supports respecting a 8-9 year old and not treating her as a baby. Nil Einne (talk) 22:49, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- None of this is relevant. We follow sources and MOS:GENDERID. There is obviously no Misplaced Pages position on when someone is or is not a "baby" and should have their self-identification reproduced in their biography. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 12:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would suggest a topic ban is imposed. GiantSnowman 16:09, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Darwin - I suggest you drop whatever agenda you have, treat other editors with respect, and comply with our MOS (including MOS:GENDERID) - otherwise you will be blocked. GiantSnowman 15:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Rephrase that as mothers opinions on their 4 year old baby gender expression. Darwin 15:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would like to suggest we follow MOS regardless of people's personal opinion of early childhood gender expression. Simonm223 (talk) 15:38, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 I would suggest you to recall we ate talking about a 4 year child whose social gender was chosen by their mother after the child refused to play with what she calls "boy toys", such as toy cars and Marvel puppets. If that's not enough that this kind of gender prejudice was already abhorrent and condemned even in the generation of my babyboomer parents, one of the first things we teached as LGBT activists in the 1990s was that our parents don't own us nor our sexuality or our gender. So please let's refrain from doing that kind of suggestions when what is in question is the gender identity of a 4 year old attributed by their mother. Ok? Darwin 15:29, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Comment I would suggest Darwin review MOS:GENDERID. If the child uses she/her pronouns we should not be referring to her with he/him pronouns. Simonm223 (talk) 15:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- They cannot be trusted. Above they said "I'm retiring myself from this topic" and yet has continued to post. GiantSnowman 16:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I've continued to post where? Darwin 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I've already walked away from it yesterday, why you're insisting on that lie? Darwin 16:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You are continuing to post here, ergo you have not "walked away" from it, have you? GiantSnowman 16:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn The issue here is not whether you are right or wrong. The issue here is that you are violating a community guideline. That's it. Either you stop or you will end up getting blocked. I have my own disagreements with that guideline, and as a consequence I simply stay far away from those articles or discussions. You should too. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- How can I get out of this endless cycle, if each time you ask me to stop and I say I already stopped yesterday, you came back chastising me for having answered again? That's not fair. Darwin 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Simply post a note at the bottom of the discussion stating that given your respectful disagreement with parts of MOS:GENDERID that you will voluntarily avoid any articles or discussions where that is, or may become, an issue. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Which discussion are you talking about? Now I'm confused. Can't you be more clear? Darwin 16:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn This one. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Ad Orientem I've already done it, but you keep writing below it, so it's not in the bottom anymore. Darwin 17:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn Easiest way to defuse this is to post a bolded and outdented statement at the very bottom of the this discussion stating you understand MOSGENDERID and will avoid pages or discussions where it may become an issue, and that you will avoid as far as possible, interacting with Skyshifter. If there are other issues here, I have no comment on those. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, here it goes again: "if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so" Darwin 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- That is not an appropriate statement, it has your bias/agenda throughout it. Very concerning. GiantSnowman 18:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, here it goes again: "if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so" Darwin 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn Easiest way to defuse this is to post a bolded and outdented statement at the very bottom of the this discussion stating you understand MOSGENDERID and will avoid pages or discussions where it may become an issue, and that you will avoid as far as possible, interacting with Skyshifter. If there are other issues here, I have no comment on those. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Ad Orientem I've already done it, but you keep writing below it, so it's not in the bottom anymore. Darwin 17:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn This one. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Which discussion are you talking about? Now I'm confused. Can't you be more clear? Darwin 16:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Simply post a note at the bottom of the discussion stating that given your respectful disagreement with parts of MOS:GENDERID that you will voluntarily avoid any articles or discussions where that is, or may become, an issue. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- How can I get out of this endless cycle, if each time you ask me to stop and I say I already stopped yesterday, you came back chastising me for having answered again? That's not fair. Darwin 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn The issue here is not whether you are right or wrong. The issue here is that you are violating a community guideline. That's it. Either you stop or you will end up getting blocked. I have my own disagreements with that guideline, and as a consequence I simply stay far away from those articles or discussions. You should too. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You are continuing to post here, ergo you have not "walked away" from it, have you? GiantSnowman 16:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Heres the main point I can see RE "Cross-wiki harassment." If DarwIn claims they do not regularly edit this topic space and had not previously participated in DYK discussions how did they come to find themselves there just in time to oppose the contribution of an editor they had extensive negative interactions with on another wiki? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- that's old stuff, I already posted a note there retiring from that space yesterday. I'm really puzzled on what all this fuss is about. Darwin 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- This isn't about the transphobia, this is about the harassment (they are seperate by apparently related claims). So how did you find yourself commenting on that DYK? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I expressed my disagreement with that note, justifying with my opinion, and there's not even any misgendering issue there, AFAIK. Not sure if expressing that opinion here is forbidden or not, but in any case I've posted a note retiring from it already yesterday, so I've no idea what more do you want. Darwin 16:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- And how did you become aware that there was something to disagree with? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- precisely because we are currently in the process of evaluating the notability of that bio and association she created at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, so it's just natural that related issues on other wikis get monitored too, that's part of the process. You don't agree with that evaluation, and that's perfectly OK. To each Misplaced Pages their own stuff 🤷 Darwin 16:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Please link the diff from portuguese wiki where the DYK for this wiki came up. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:59, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- it's the wikipedia articles created yesterday that we are evaluating, not any kind of DYK note. Darwin 17:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- How is this a related issue then? It sure looks like you followed this particular user around Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back no, I followed the articles, as they were also created here yesterday. Is that so hard to understand? Darwin 17:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Because of edits like this . Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- answering an accusation of being a dictator after flushing away the copyviios she uploaded. What's the problem? Darwin 17:19, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- No, that diff is the undo. Thats you edit warring apparent harassment onto someone's talk page on another wiki with a kissing face as the edit summary... In that context this does look like cross wiki harassment. Do you have a better explanation? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Just answered the troll there with another, as I was on the middle of something else. Yes, I know, not the nicest thing to do, but whatever. And why are we discussing Commons here now, anyway? Darwin 17:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- We're discussing cross wiki harassment, that makes edits on any wiki relevant to the discussion. You appear to have been harassing them on commons and then followed them here to continue the harassment because a temporary block there (which you appear to have had a hand in) prevented them from being active there. You absolutely can not do that. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I answered a troll, if there was any harassment was from that account towards me, not the opposite. Please don't invert the situation. Darwin 17:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Your edits on enwiki had nothing to do with trolling or other behavioral issues from that account, if your edits on enwiki were to address valid concerns informed by your experience on other wikis we would not be having this discussion. It was also you restoring your comment which they removed from their talk page, thats you trolling them and it makes their dictator claim look not like trolling but rather accurate. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I confess I've no idea why we are still having this discussion, as they were just that. But for the 50th time, these interactions have stopped long ago, and for a similar amount of time I've devotedly accepted and committed to all your rules. Darwin 18:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- In my opinion we're still having this discussion because you are stonewalling, perhaps its a language barrier but you don't come off as trustworthy or engaging in good faith. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I confess I've no idea why we are still having this discussion, as they were just that. But for the 50th time, these interactions have stopped long ago, and for a similar amount of time I've devotedly accepted and committed to all your rules. Darwin 18:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Your edits on enwiki had nothing to do with trolling or other behavioral issues from that account, if your edits on enwiki were to address valid concerns informed by your experience on other wikis we would not be having this discussion. It was also you restoring your comment which they removed from their talk page, thats you trolling them and it makes their dictator claim look not like trolling but rather accurate. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I answered a troll, if there was any harassment was from that account towards me, not the opposite. Please don't invert the situation. Darwin 17:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- We're discussing cross wiki harassment, that makes edits on any wiki relevant to the discussion. You appear to have been harassing them on commons and then followed them here to continue the harassment because a temporary block there (which you appear to have had a hand in) prevented them from being active there. You absolutely can not do that. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Just answered the troll there with another, as I was on the middle of something else. Yes, I know, not the nicest thing to do, but whatever. And why are we discussing Commons here now, anyway? Darwin 17:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- No, that diff is the undo. Thats you edit warring apparent harassment onto someone's talk page on another wiki with a kissing face as the edit summary... In that context this does look like cross wiki harassment. Do you have a better explanation? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- answering an accusation of being a dictator after flushing away the copyviios she uploaded. What's the problem? Darwin 17:19, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Because of edits like this . Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back no, I followed the articles, as they were also created here yesterday. Is that so hard to understand? Darwin 17:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- How is this a related issue then? It sure looks like you followed this particular user around Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- it's the wikipedia articles created yesterday that we are evaluating, not any kind of DYK note. Darwin 17:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Please link the diff from portuguese wiki where the DYK for this wiki came up. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:59, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- precisely because we are currently in the process of evaluating the notability of that bio and association she created at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, so it's just natural that related issues on other wikis get monitored too, that's part of the process. You don't agree with that evaluation, and that's perfectly OK. To each Misplaced Pages their own stuff 🤷 Darwin 16:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- And how did you become aware that there was something to disagree with? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I expressed my disagreement with that note, justifying with my opinion, and there's not even any misgendering issue there, AFAIK. Not sure if expressing that opinion here is forbidden or not, but in any case I've posted a note retiring from it already yesterday, so I've no idea what more do you want. Darwin 16:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- This isn't about the transphobia, this is about the harassment (they are seperate by apparently related claims). So how did you find yourself commenting on that DYK? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- that's old stuff, I already posted a note there retiring from that space yesterday. I'm really puzzled on what all this fuss is about. Darwin 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Honestly, this is an interesting idea but I think this needs to become an Arbitration Committee issue. The community is so heavily divided on this, it’s actually ridiculous. This whole situation just is bonkers. Like why is this at ANI anymore. Reader of Information (talk) 00:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- By an interesting idea I meant my idea of it becoming an arbitration committee issue is an interesting proposal. Reader of Information (talk) 00:23, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
I believe it may help too, if Darwin will promise to avoid interacting on main space with Skyshifter. GoodDay (talk) 17:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. Not that I ever interacted with her there AFAIK, anyway. Darwin 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think Darwin should avoid interacting with Skyshifter on all spaces on en.wikipedia.org. It's clear Darwin has made Skyshifter feel uncomfortable, and I don't appreciate it. Isaidnoway (talk) 17:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Isaidnoway I absolutely agree with that, I'm not doing any sort of interaction with that account anymore. I'm still answering here because you keep mentioning me. Darwin 17:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Since you "absolutely agree", then I will take your comment here as acknowledging a voluntary one-way interaction ban, broadly construed, as in effect. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Isaidnoway yes, that's correct. Darwin 18:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Since you "absolutely agree", then I will take your comment here as acknowledging a voluntary one-way interaction ban, broadly construed, as in effect. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Isaidnoway I absolutely agree with that, I'm not doing any sort of interaction with that account anymore. I'm still answering here because you keep mentioning me. Darwin 17:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think a one-way interaction ban between the editors would be for the best here. While I think there is some merit to a Gender and Sexuality tban, as some of Darwin's recent edits appear to be about righting great wrongs in the topic area, I believe the interaction ban would solve most of the issues raised here. Isabelle Belato 17:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- which "edits"? The 1 or 2 comments in the DYK section? Darwin 18:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- All your edits related to the subject, both here and on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages. Isabelle Belato 18:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Isabelle Belato You're evaluating my edits on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages to punish me in the English Misplaced Pages? Darwin 19:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- When there is cross-wiki harassment, then yes, your activity on other wikis is relevant. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @The Bushranger Can you explain how my general edit history in wiki.pt is relevant in any way to an accusation of cross-wiki harassment? Darwin 23:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- When there is cross-wiki harassment, then yes, your activity on other wikis is relevant. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Isabelle Belato You're evaluating my edits on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages to punish me in the English Misplaced Pages? Darwin 19:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- All your edits related to the subject, both here and on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages. Isabelle Belato 18:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- which "edits"? The 1 or 2 comments in the DYK section? Darwin 18:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
Would recommend that Darwin walk away from the general topic. This would avoid any need for topic bans. GoodDay (talk) 16:20, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Clarification
- Hello @Nil Einne - and others. Please recall that my opinion was specifically over the declaration of the child gender by her mother at or before her 4th birthday, by her mother own account based on classical gender stereotypes. It's specifically about that. I've no way to know what gender the child is or will eventually be in the future, and gladly accept whatever she chooses - as I would if she was my own child. I've eventually been harsher than needed in the DYK comment because that specific situation where a minor is extensively exposed with full name, photographs, etc. by her parents on social networks, newspapers and whatelse is generally condemned in my country, to the point of eventually configuring a crime here. Obviously Misplaced Pages has nothing to do with that when it comes to the spread of information, but in my view - obviously wrong, from the general reaction here - exposing the child in yet another place, let alone wiki.en main page, was a bit too much.
- As for misgendering, I am one of the founders and former board member of ILGA Portugal, which after 30 years still is the main LGBT association in Portugal, though not an active member for many years for moving away from Lisbon, where it's headquartered. For more than 30 years I've been on the fight against homophobia and transphobia, not specially in Misplaced Pages, but on the streets, where it was needed in the 1990s here in Portugal, when the whole LGBT thing was just starting and most people couldn't even tell the difference between a drag queen and a trangender woman. I was beaten up, lost my 2 front teeth on homo/transphobic street fights (the first one at 18 years old, for publicly defending from booers in the audience a trangender girl which was acting at a local bar )- and whatelse. I never had even the least impulse to misgender any of the many trangender people that always have been around me, and the few situations where that may have happened were online with people that I knew for years as being one gender, and took a while to sink they are another, because online there's not the ever helping visual clue. So it's kind of disheartening to be treated like this in a strange place by people I don't know just because I expressed an (harsh, agreed) opinion defending the age of consent for children, and condemning their parents interference on that.
- The TBan is not very relevant for me, as I seldom edit here and despite the activism of my past days LGBT is not my primary interest on Misplaced Pages, but I'm considerably saddened by the misunderstandings, bad faith assumptions, false accusations that have been told here about me, though eventually the flaw is not in the whole group that has their own rules and culture, but in the newcomer which don't understand it well in all its nuances, as was my case here.
- Finally, as the misunderstandings continue, I never came here after Skyshifter, which as is public and she knows, I've always considered a good editor and helped several times with articles and what else (which is also why I felt confident to answer with a 😘 when she called me a dictator in another project, though it was obviously not the most appropriate way to answer it, and for which I apologize to Skyshifter). In this last row I wasn't even directly involved in her indefinite block in wiki.pt, despite being mentioned there. I didn't even touched the articles she created here on Thamirys Nunes and Minha Criança Trans or addressed she here in any way. I came here because of the DYK note, which, as said above, I thought was an exaggerated exposition for that case here on the English Misplaced Pages. As you extensively demonstrated here, it is not, and I defer to your appreciation. Despite that, after this whole situation I've not the least interest on interacting in any possible way with Skyshifter, with or without IBan.
- And that's it. Hopefully you'll excuse my verbosity, specially in such a festive day, but I felt this last clarification was needed. I also present my apologies to all those who may have felt offended by an eventual appearance of cockiness or defiance which I inadvertently sometimes transmit in my speech. I'll return here if specifically asked to, otherwise I'll leave the debate for this community. Again, stay well, and have an happy new year. Darwin 17:58, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
Proposed Community Sanctions
I offered DarwIn an off ramp above and their response was to reiterate their views on a highly controversial subject and their responses to concerns about their interactions with Skyshifter have been entirely unsatisfactory. This looks a like a pretty clear case of IDHT revolving around their strong disagreement with one of our guidelines. Frankly, I came very close to just blocking them after their response to my suggestion. This discussion has already dragged on long enough. For purposes of clarity, nobody is required to agree with all of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. And yes, gender is a highly controversial subject. I have my own disagreements with parts of MOS:GENDERID. But as the old saying goes, themz the rules until they aint. Editors are free to disagree with community P&G, but are not free to ignore or flout them. It's time to settle this.
Proposed DarwIn is topic banned from all pages and discussions relating to WP:GENSEX broadly construed and is subject to a one way IBan with user Skyshifter, also broadly construed. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I note that Darwin has agreed above to the IBan. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose - He's already agreed to avoid that general topic area in future & Skyshifter. PS - If a t-ban is imposed? limit it to six-months. GoodDay (talk) 18:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Why should the community accept voluntary TBAN and IBAN which can easily be reneged on when we can impose it as a community sanction and ensure that any violation is actionable? TarnishedPath 01:08, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support topic ban and IBAN, both broadly construed - sorry GoodDay but I do not trust this user's words, and so we need a proper sanction. GiantSnowman 18:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support. Just read through the above and good grief. - The Bushranger One ping only 18:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I said above I would support this proposal if it was brought forward, and I do. Simonm223 (talk) 18:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Why it should be a one-way iban? Skyshifter started this topic with the characterization of their opponent as "a known transphobic editor". A normal editor would be blocked just for writing this. I am not sure a iban is needed, but if it is needed it must be mutual. Ymblanter (talk) 18:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- That's actually a fair point. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- It would be more compelling if DarwIn weren't so committed to misgendering a child out of some apparent WP:RGW impulse. Simonm223 (talk) 19:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 You have been misjudging me - It was quite the opposite, actually, if it's worth anything. Darwin 19:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- The child, according to the reliable sources I have seen, uses she/her pronouns. Your changing your comments from he/him to they/them does not bring even that one comment in line with our MOS. I am not interested in whether you, in your heart of hearts, are a transphobe. I am concerned that your editing in the WP:GENSEX area is disruptive in a way that will likely make trans editors less comfortable working in the en.wiki project. As a result I think you should avoid editing in that topic area. Furthermore I think you should leave Skyshifter alone as you have not provided a satisfactory explanation for your participation in the DYK thread. Simonm223 (talk) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 OK, I didn't knew the child used those pronouns when she was 4 years old, I commit to use them here if I would ever talk about that issue again (which I definitely will not, anyway). Darwin 20:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- The child, according to the reliable sources I have seen, uses she/her pronouns. Your changing your comments from he/him to they/them does not bring even that one comment in line with our MOS. I am not interested in whether you, in your heart of hearts, are a transphobe. I am concerned that your editing in the WP:GENSEX area is disruptive in a way that will likely make trans editors less comfortable working in the en.wiki project. As a result I think you should avoid editing in that topic area. Furthermore I think you should leave Skyshifter alone as you have not provided a satisfactory explanation for your participation in the DYK thread. Simonm223 (talk) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 You have been misjudging me - It was quite the opposite, actually, if it's worth anything. Darwin 19:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- It would be more compelling if DarwIn weren't so committed to misgendering a child out of some apparent WP:RGW impulse. Simonm223 (talk) 19:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- That's actually a fair point. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- If they weren't before they are now... Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Ok, to be clear, I oppose a one-way IB. I do not find this argument convincing. Ymblanter (talk) 19:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I agree. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 12:46, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support this seems like a reasonable set of restrictions, I hope they can stick to it Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back I never edited in that topic here, as far as I can remember, not is it a primary interest I have, so it certainly will not be difficult to hold, even if it comes out to me as incredibly unbased and unfair. Darwin 19:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Your edits to DYK were within that topic area. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back And those were the only ones, and I voluntarily stopped them yesterday immediately after being reverted. How does that configure the kind of systematic behaviour that would justify a topic ban? I really apologize, but in this moment the way I see this is a kind of Salem witch hunt, with people accusing me of all kind of slurs and abominations, even when they are in directly opposition to my stance here. You seem to be punishing me for my opinions and the way I (supposedly) think about a very particular issue (if 4 years old have self determination or not), which comes out to me as really unfair and unworthy of a project like this. Darwin 20:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- How is that in direct opposition to your stance there? Your edit summary says "forgot that English has the neutral pronoun, which is useful in these cases. fixed." which suggests that it is in line with that stance Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back I'm sorry, I seem to have missed your point. What is wrong with correcting the gender to a neutral pronoun in such a situation? Darwin 20:13, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- This edit might help you get the point. At this point your conduct on this page is becoming a serious behavioral issue... you can't lie, sealion, obfuscate, and misdirect endlessly without consequences. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back I can fix those too as I did yesterday, if you think it's important 🤷🏽♂️ Darwin 20:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You are not supposed to edit comments after they have been responded to in that way. But by fix do you mean change to "she" or do you mean change to "they"? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back Change to "she", following this wikipedia rules, certainly. So if I can't fix them, what do you propose instead to mend it? Darwin 20:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Given the sheer quantity of lies and obfuscations from you (the truth is apparently a last resort) the only fix I can see is a formal one, a topic ban and an interaction ban. Up above you so easily went from "I never edited in the topic area" to "those were the only ones" that I don't even think you understand that you were caught in a blatant lie. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back There was not any "lie", please stop assuming bad faith. I thought you were referring to the main space only, which I believe is a fairly assumption to do, if the used word is "editing". Darwin 20:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- At best you're saying that you lack the competence on enwiki to adhere to any voluntary restrictions. This will be my last comment unless pinged by an editor other than you, my apologies that this has been an unpleasant process for you. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Darwin has a long history of editing in WP:GENSEX albeit generally less controversially. an example. Simonm223 (talk) 20:35, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 That's documented with the sources and all, and the proposition there was that the tupinambá was gay, not a woman. It's not even gender related. So you desperatly want something to justify a TB, bring it on. I'm fed up with what seems to be a circular and nonsense discussion on this board, where whatever I say is a lie and with bad intentions. I don't even edit here in the gender topic, but if it makes you happy, bring it on. Darwin 20:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- DarwIn WP:GENSEX covers gender and sexuality. You have been saying you aren't interested in the topic area. It appears to be one of your main areas of interest on en.wiki. Simonm223 (talk) 20:43, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 Thanks for clarifying that. Fact is that I don't edit much here. I've occasionally added or fixed some LGBT related stuff in the past when it crossed my main interest, History, but it certainly is not a primary interest, despite being LGBT myself. Darwin 20:49, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- DarwIn WP:GENSEX covers gender and sexuality. You have been saying you aren't interested in the topic area. It appears to be one of your main areas of interest on en.wiki. Simonm223 (talk) 20:43, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 That's documented with the sources and all, and the proposition there was that the tupinambá was gay, not a woman. It's not even gender related. So you desperatly want something to justify a TB, bring it on. I'm fed up with what seems to be a circular and nonsense discussion on this board, where whatever I say is a lie and with bad intentions. I don't even edit here in the gender topic, but if it makes you happy, bring it on. Darwin 20:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back There was not any "lie", please stop assuming bad faith. I thought you were referring to the main space only, which I believe is a fairly assumption to do, if the used word is "editing". Darwin 20:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Given the sheer quantity of lies and obfuscations from you (the truth is apparently a last resort) the only fix I can see is a formal one, a topic ban and an interaction ban. Up above you so easily went from "I never edited in the topic area" to "those were the only ones" that I don't even think you understand that you were caught in a blatant lie. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back Change to "she", following this wikipedia rules, certainly. So if I can't fix them, what do you propose instead to mend it? Darwin 20:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You are not supposed to edit comments after they have been responded to in that way. But by fix do you mean change to "she" or do you mean change to "they"? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back I can fix those too as I did yesterday, if you think it's important 🤷🏽♂️ Darwin 20:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- This edit might help you get the point. At this point your conduct on this page is becoming a serious behavioral issue... you can't lie, sealion, obfuscate, and misdirect endlessly without consequences. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back I'm sorry, I seem to have missed your point. What is wrong with correcting the gender to a neutral pronoun in such a situation? Darwin 20:13, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- How is that in direct opposition to your stance there? Your edit summary says "forgot that English has the neutral pronoun, which is useful in these cases. fixed." which suggests that it is in line with that stance Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back And those were the only ones, and I voluntarily stopped them yesterday immediately after being reverted. How does that configure the kind of systematic behaviour that would justify a topic ban? I really apologize, but in this moment the way I see this is a kind of Salem witch hunt, with people accusing me of all kind of slurs and abominations, even when they are in directly opposition to my stance here. You seem to be punishing me for my opinions and the way I (supposedly) think about a very particular issue (if 4 years old have self determination or not), which comes out to me as really unfair and unworthy of a project like this. Darwin 20:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Your edits to DYK were within that topic area. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back I never edited in that topic here, as far as I can remember, not is it a primary interest I have, so it certainly will not be difficult to hold, even if it comes out to me as incredibly unbased and unfair. Darwin 19:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support per Bushranger. charlotte 20:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose. As GoodDay noted, the problem appears to already be addressed. If the problem persists then go for a sanction. Look we let people argue their point here and it does seem like most of the support is because editors feel Darwin isn't contrite enough, not that they expect the issue to continue. Note that I'm not weighing in on any interaction bans. Springee (talk) 20:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose per Springee. This entire issue could have been dropped days ago when DarwIn acknowledged he would walk away, and instead seems to have been needlessly escalated again and again and again. * Pppery * it has begun... 20:51, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Pppery: days ago? I think you might have misread the time stamps. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:57, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support the TBAN; personally I'd have indeffed several outdents sooner, but here we are. No opinion on the IBAN. ⇒SWATJester 23:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support Given what's happened, I think an enforceable topic ban is better than Darwin stepping away. IMO the BLP issues is far more concerning than gensex one so I'd support a BLP topic ban as well, but it seems likely a gensex one would be enough to stop Darwin feeling the continued need to express their opinions on a living person. Since Darwin is going to step away anyway and barely edits en, it should be a moot point and if it's not that's why it's enforceable. As for the iban, while I don't think Skyshifter should have described Darwin in that way when opening this thread, I think we can accept it as a one time mistake under the stress of apparently being followed and given questionable way Darwin ended up in a dispute here with someone they'd had problems with elsewhere I think a one-way iban is justified. Nil Einne (talk) 23:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Nil Einne What " continued need to express their opinions on a living person"? My single-1-single comment in the DYK? Darwin 23:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn: Demonstrating the problem. You claim you only did it once elsewhere but anyone reading this thread can see you did it here so many times #c-DarwIn-20241229133200-Skyshifter-20241229132800, #c-DarwIn-20241229152900-Simonm223-20241229150600, #c-DarwIn-20241229154200-Blue-Sonnet-20241229154000, #c-DarwIn-20241229154100-Simonm223-20241229153800, #c-DarwIn-20241229160700-GiantSnowman-20241229154400, #c-DarwIn-20241229172200-Ad_Orientem-20241229171800. I think it represents maybe 1/3 of your comments here (whether counting comments or text). There is absolutely no reason for you to go around expressing your opinions on two different living persons to say you're going to walk away. And if you need to express your opinion on living persons to defend your actions, you clearly have no defence. Nil Einne (talk) 00:22, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- So let's get this straight. You are proposing a topic ban on me because of the personal opinions on (the eventual lack of) selfdetermination of 4 year old children that I expressed here in this board, despite that my editions related to it were limited to a 1-single-1 comment on that issue on the DYK page? This is really looking like thought police. I tell you, my personal positions are my personal positions, and I'll not change them to please you, even if if costs me a Topic Ban for barely mentioned them on this project a single time before this topic was opened here. Darwin 00:28, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Holding an opinion ≠ expressing an opinion. Only one of these is causing an issue. Blue Sonnet (talk) 00:44, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- I expressed it only 1-one-1 time here almost 1 day before being recalled here to explain it, and after voluntarily saying in the same page that I would not express it again there. Now I'm being punished for explaining it here too, after being requested to do that? This is insufferable. Darwin 00:55, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- User:DarwIn, I think at this point, further comments from you will not be helping your case. If this is insufferable (and being summoned to ANI generally is), it might help to step back from this discussion and only respond if editors ask you specific questions. When discussions get this long, often the small benefit from continuing to comment does not outweigh the cost of continued misunderstanding among editors. Liz
- @Liz: Thank you for the wise advice, I'll be doing that. Darwin 03:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn: you can think whatever you like about living persons. I have a lot of views on living persons which I would never, ever express on wiki for various reasons including BLP. Also you defence is bullshit. No one ever asked you to make accusations around living persons to defend your actions. And yes it is fairly normal that editors may be sanctioned if they feel they need to do such things about living persons on ANI as part of some silly argument or defence. I recall an editor who was temporarily blocked after they felt the need to say two very very famous extremely public figure living persons (and some non living) were sex predators to prove some point at ANI. And I'm fairly sure a lot of people have said and feel those people are sex predators including some Wikipedians I'd even probably agree in at least one case, they just understand it's not something they should be expressing here. Nil Einne (talk) 23:02, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- For clarity, what I mean by my last sentence is that I'm sure quite a few people would agree with the statements. I'm sure such statements have been made elsewhere probably even in opinions printed in reliable sources (I think the editor did link to some such opinions). I'm sure even quite a few Wikipedians would agree that one or more of these people are sex predators, I think I'd even agree with it in at least one case. However most of us understand that our personal views of living persons, especially highly negatives views are generally not something to be expressed on wiki except when for some reason it's important enough to the discussion that it's reasonable to say it. When you keep saying something and in the same paragraph acknowledge the English wikipedia doesn't consider your opinion relevant, then it's clear there was no reason for you to say it. You're still free to believe it just as I'm still free to believe all those things about living persons that I would never express on wiki. Nil Einne (talk) 06:08, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- User:DarwIn, I think at this point, further comments from you will not be helping your case. If this is insufferable (and being summoned to ANI generally is), it might help to step back from this discussion and only respond if editors ask you specific questions. When discussions get this long, often the small benefit from continuing to comment does not outweigh the cost of continued misunderstanding among editors. Liz
- I expressed it only 1-one-1 time here almost 1 day before being recalled here to explain it, and after voluntarily saying in the same page that I would not express it again there. Now I'm being punished for explaining it here too, after being requested to do that? This is insufferable. Darwin 00:55, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Holding an opinion ≠ expressing an opinion. Only one of these is causing an issue. Blue Sonnet (talk) 00:44, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- So let's get this straight. You are proposing a topic ban on me because of the personal opinions on (the eventual lack of) selfdetermination of 4 year old children that I expressed here in this board, despite that my editions related to it were limited to a 1-single-1 comment on that issue on the DYK page? This is really looking like thought police. I tell you, my personal positions are my personal positions, and I'll not change them to please you, even if if costs me a Topic Ban for barely mentioned them on this project a single time before this topic was opened here. Darwin 00:28, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn: Demonstrating the problem. You claim you only did it once elsewhere but anyone reading this thread can see you did it here so many times #c-DarwIn-20241229133200-Skyshifter-20241229132800, #c-DarwIn-20241229152900-Simonm223-20241229150600, #c-DarwIn-20241229154200-Blue-Sonnet-20241229154000, #c-DarwIn-20241229154100-Simonm223-20241229153800, #c-DarwIn-20241229160700-GiantSnowman-20241229154400, #c-DarwIn-20241229172200-Ad_Orientem-20241229171800. I think it represents maybe 1/3 of your comments here (whether counting comments or text). There is absolutely no reason for you to go around expressing your opinions on two different living persons to say you're going to walk away. And if you need to express your opinion on living persons to defend your actions, you clearly have no defence. Nil Einne (talk) 00:22, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Nil Einne What " continued need to express their opinions on a living person"? My single-1-single comment in the DYK? Darwin 23:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support - Darwin's replies and conduct here indicates that he simply doesn't get it.
- MiasmaEternal☎ 02:52, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose - Per GoodDay and Springee. Ciridae (talk) 05:47, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support TBAN per Bushranger. Darwin has already agreed to the 1-way IBAN — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk) 10:56, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose Given the history at pt.wiki, I think this is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. There should be no interaction between the parties, which Darwin has agreed to.Boynamedsue (talk) 14:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose The agreed-upon IBAN takes care of the ongoing issue. While the edits related to the child were problematic, this doesn't appear to be case of significantly wider problems in this topic area, and the full scope of MOS:GENDERID may very well be surprising to editors who don't do much in that area. I don't think there's been near enough here to no longer WP:AGF. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 15:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
Support TBAN/IBANWeak support TBAN/Strong support IBAN - WP:NQP suggests that queerphobia is inherently disruptive. calling a queer activist a "troglodyte", the previous history of abuse on pt.wikipedia, and the current responses from Darwin indicate WP:NOTHERE behavior. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- This reasoning looks like a case of punishing somebody for political and cultural views rather than behaviour.Boynamedsue (talk) 16:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Followung editors from wiki to wiki because of transphobic beliefs is disruptive, and creepy. A boy named sue is a transphobic song by the way. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 17:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oh dear. Do you think I should have a siteban, or would a TBAN suffice?--Boynamedsue (talk) 18:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- If I was named after a joke about misgendering people, I'd avoid defending crosswiki culture warriors worried about misgendering people. You may just really be into Shel Silverstein. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 19:26, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- "A Boy Named Sue", made famous by Johnny Cash sixty years ago , is a transphobic "joke about misgendering people"??? Oh my god, some people need to get out in the real world more. EEng 23:58, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for your valuable input. As always, you have advanced the conversation in a helpful way EEng. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 00:05, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- No need to thank me. It's just part of the service. EEng 01:19, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- OK boomer. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 01:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- Well, you certainly put me in my place with that one. EEng 21:14, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- OK boomer. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 01:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- No need to thank me. It's just part of the service. EEng 01:19, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for your valuable input. As always, you have advanced the conversation in a helpful way EEng. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 00:05, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- "A Boy Named Sue", made famous by Johnny Cash sixty years ago , is a transphobic "joke about misgendering people"??? Oh my god, some people need to get out in the real world more. EEng 23:58, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- I understand. Speaking up for the witch is a sign I too might be a witch. I'll try to be more careful in future.Boynamedsue (talk) 20:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Misgendering BLPs is disruptive. A Johnny Cash related username is not. Suggest the IP WP:DROPTHESTICK - while we may disagree with Boynamedsue regarding their interpretation here they have done nothing wrong. Simonm223 (talk) 21:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- If I was named after a joke about misgendering people, I'd avoid defending crosswiki culture warriors worried about misgendering people. You may just really be into Shel Silverstein. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 19:26, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oh dear. Do you think I should have a siteban, or would a TBAN suffice?--Boynamedsue (talk) 18:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- No. It's stopping a disruptive editor from continuing to edit disruptively. Simonm223 (talk) 17:17, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Followung editors from wiki to wiki because of transphobic beliefs is disruptive, and creepy. A boy named sue is a transphobic song by the way. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 17:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) NQP is an essay. Essentially it's an op-ed piece. It does not carry any force in the realm of WP:PG, and the views expressed there are controversial. (See the essay's talk page.). IMO words with some variation on "phobe/phobic" &c. are being routinely weaponized by people on one side of hot button cultural/political debates as part of an effort to demonize those on the other side of these debates. As such, I am inclined to view the use of such terms as a specie of WP:NPA. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- fair enough, i'll remove my vote for TBAN.
- sidenote, I have no qualms with labeling a behavior as queerphobia. I don't think calling out discrimination or disruptive attitudes is inherently a vio of NPA. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:53, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- ... I am indecisive.. I'll add weak support for TBAN, I still think the topic area should not have folks who are disruptive like this. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 17:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Pervasively misgendering a child based on the belief that a child cannot express a desire to transition is a form of transphobic behavior. If it was a similar comment made about a BLP on the basis of religion or skin colour there would be no mention of WP:NPA. Misplaced Pages is generally good about handling racism. It is a perpetual stain upon the reputation of Misplaced Pages that it's culture continues to worry more about the feelings of people who take transphobic actions than of the victims of the same. Simonm223 (talk) 17:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose as unnecessary given the commitments already given. WaggersTALK 11:29, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- This reasoning looks like a case of punishing somebody for political and cultural views rather than behaviour.Boynamedsue (talk) 16:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
| Let's not. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC). Edited to include edit conflict comment. CNC (talk) 15:56, 3 January 2025 (UTC) |
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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| This is affairs of other wikis. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:10, 31 December 2024 (UTC) |
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
As a ptwiki user that know what's happening but talked to both sides of the discussion throughout it: This whole discussion started as a beef between Skyshifter and DarwIn. Skyshifter didn't accept some changes DarwIn made to an article "of her" (quotes because articles doesn't have owners. I respect her pronouns), and when discussing with DarwIn, called the whole Portuguese Misplaced Pages project a sewage (here)/in her UP, thus being banned and the ban being endorsed on the block discussion (in portuguese). The discussion was based on the references for the article, was solved in the ptwiki with an outburst from Sky, and that was it. This whole problem was brought here for a single reason only: Beef from Skyshifter with DarwIn. A single change or a single opinion on a DYK shouldn't be reason for a TB or IBAN anywhere in the world, especially considering that it was a difference interpreting the references. I know that my statement won't change anything, as there is an apparent "consensus" on TBanning and IBANning him, though I wanted to make things clear for everyone. I am totally open for questioning regarding any of my statements above, and I will supply you with any proof I have and you need. Just ping me here and if the inquiry/proofs are extremely important, please leave me a message on my portuguese talk page (direct url). It can be in English, just for me to see you need me here. Cheers. Eduardo G. 03:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC) JardelW is a user who was banned from the Portuguese Misplaced Pages due to his detestable behavior. This individual used the same Telegram group that he is now criticizing. The editor was banned from this group due to his behavior, in which he called respected users of the community "worms, scoundrels, trash and deniers". And DarwIn is one of the administrators of the group where he is banned, so you can already imagine why he is here. Now, once again he is trying to destabilize the community by defending an editor who called the entire project a sewer and made unproven accusations against an administrator. At this point, the account is practically banned and the article that caused the discord has its deletion or merge defended by several editors. By coming here, JardelW and Skyshifter are, in a way, stating that the entire community is prejudiced. Yet another offense enters the list as proof of Jardel's destabilizing behavior. Furthermore, this user already tried to carry out the same destabilization by contesting on meta the banning of IPs, a consensual decision among hundreds of editors. And when he was still blocked, went to Meta-Wiki in an attempt to intervene in the Misplaced Pages domain, where he is banned, simply because he did not agree with the deletion of an article. And this without presenting any evidence. It is clear that Jardel's objective here is to take revenge on the community, and he will be punished for it. InvictumAlways (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 04:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
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- InvictumAlways - this is your second edit ever, and your account was just created today - how did you get to this ANI post? jellyfish ✉ 05:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- I saw a discussion in the group and created the account to not appear as an IP. InvictumAlways (talk) 05:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Jardel The objective of the channel is to be a more relaxed place. And it's not official, as you said yourself previously. Angry moment? Are you sorry? After your block, you attacked editors on a social network, as attested by a CheckUser: . And there are no prejudiced comments. That's a lie. Where are the links? And how much time have you devoted to the project when all you do is attack others? Enough of this nonsense. I ask that an administrator evaluate the conduct of this account. InvictumAlways (talk) 05:16, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- I didn't realize the discussion was closed. Sorry. InvictumAlways (talk) 05:18, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- Supporting both IBAN and TBAN. Someone who actively believes in misgendering should not be allowed into this area when they have already demonstrably made another editor uncomfortable. The snarky reply to GiantSnowman does not convince me they would respond well if another editor brought up a similar concern in the future.--Jasper Deng (talk) 07:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- Can't we give this child and her mother some privacy? What is it about gender issues, as opposed to other medical or developmental issues, that seems to give everyone a right to comment? Let's just report what reliable sources say and leave it at that. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:38, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- If the mother had wanted privacy for her child, writing a book which makes it possible to identify her and know intimate details of her biology for the rest of her life, while documenting her transition step by step for hundreds of thousands of instagram followers, seem strange choices. I don't feel there are any privacy concerns here, that horse has long bolted, and we had nothing to do with opening the door.Boynamedsue (talk) 09:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
- BLP requires we take great care what we say about living persons regardless of the wisdom of their decisions. This is hardly the first time it's come up where both in articles and in discussions we've required editors obey BLP even if there is a lot of nonsense out there which arises in part from decisions subjects have made. Editors can do that stuff on Reddit or 4chan or wherever they want without such requirements. If editors cannot follow our BLP requirements, they need to stop editing either voluntarily or involuntarily. Nil Einne (talk) 10:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think BLP covers things that the subject puts into the public domain about themselves or, when we are talking about talkpages, personal opinions on the morality of things they reveal about themselves.Boynamedsue (talk) 13:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- talkpages def are covered by BLP as per the policy page.and the policy gives wide latitude about what the subject may have redacted if they object to info, even if they had previously or somehow otherwise placed that info in public domain.
- concerns about privacy have to weigh against dueness but arguing the book gives dueness to try to be internet sleuths and discover and identify a child is probs not gonna pass the smell test.Bluethricecreamman (talk) 13:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- The woman's book names the child, and photos of her are regularly published by the mother on instagram. There is an interview with the mother in Brazilian Marie Claire giving the child's full name and photos. I would suggest not much "internet sleuthing" is required here. Misplaced Pages, and I include Darwin in this, has (rightly) much more concern for her daughter's privacy than she does.Boynamedsue (talk) 15:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- The mother may have decided to publicise things, but the child certainly hasn't. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:42, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- Children cannot consent, their parents can. (CC) Tbhotch 21:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would totally agree, but that is irrelevant here, nothing Darwin did was related to revealing the child's identity. He criticised the mother in strong terms on talkpages and this is what the BLP argument comes down to.--Boynamedsue (talk) 23:08, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's incorrect. He's clearly disputing the child's identity. He might feel that's justified but Misplaced Pages isn't the place for that crap. Whatever the wisdom of whatever the mother did, there's zero reason to think the child is helped in any way by an editor denying their identity. As I've said before, if at any time the child says what the mother said was wrong or otherwise indicates they have a different identity from what's been presented then we'll change our article. But until that happens, we should treat things as they are and not allow editors to question the child's identity. I'd note that DarwIn also kept talking about the child's age in a very misleading way to the extent that I eventually felt complelled point out their bullshit. I did not want to talk about the child's age here on ANI, it shouldn't relate to anything. But what can we do when DarwIn keeps uttering nonsense about the child's age? Nil Einne (talk) 13:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't feel disputing the validity of the process by which the mother came to the conclusion the child was trans is covered by BLP. The description she made of the process is public knowledge, if a person wants to say "she shouldn't have done it like that" then they are not making any claims about the person at all, merely about whether, in their opinion, their actions are correct.--Boynamedsue (talk) 15:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ask yourself whether Misplaced Pages would even entertain this discourse if the identity was anything other than a trans one. The answer is a flat no. Darwin's interpretation of the mother's interpretation of her daughter's identity is inappropriate for the project, is disruptive and is openly antagonistic toward trans editors. I think nothing more can be gained from endlessly debating whether we should pretend there is a carve-out to BLP requirements for children within oppressed minorities. Simonm223 (talk) 17:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't feel disputing the validity of the process by which the mother came to the conclusion the child was trans is covered by BLP. The description she made of the process is public knowledge, if a person wants to say "she shouldn't have done it like that" then they are not making any claims about the person at all, merely about whether, in their opinion, their actions are correct.--Boynamedsue (talk) 15:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's incorrect. He's clearly disputing the child's identity. He might feel that's justified but Misplaced Pages isn't the place for that crap. Whatever the wisdom of whatever the mother did, there's zero reason to think the child is helped in any way by an editor denying their identity. As I've said before, if at any time the child says what the mother said was wrong or otherwise indicates they have a different identity from what's been presented then we'll change our article. But until that happens, we should treat things as they are and not allow editors to question the child's identity. I'd note that DarwIn also kept talking about the child's age in a very misleading way to the extent that I eventually felt complelled point out their bullshit. I did not want to talk about the child's age here on ANI, it shouldn't relate to anything. But what can we do when DarwIn keeps uttering nonsense about the child's age? Nil Einne (talk) 13:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- The mother may have decided to publicise things, but the child certainly hasn't. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:42, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- The woman's book names the child, and photos of her are regularly published by the mother on instagram. There is an interview with the mother in Brazilian Marie Claire giving the child's full name and photos. I would suggest not much "internet sleuthing" is required here. Misplaced Pages, and I include Darwin in this, has (rightly) much more concern for her daughter's privacy than she does.Boynamedsue (talk) 15:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think BLP covers things that the subject puts into the public domain about themselves or, when we are talking about talkpages, personal opinions on the morality of things they reveal about themselves.Boynamedsue (talk) 13:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- BLP requires we take great care what we say about living persons regardless of the wisdom of their decisions. This is hardly the first time it's come up where both in articles and in discussions we've required editors obey BLP even if there is a lot of nonsense out there which arises in part from decisions subjects have made. Editors can do that stuff on Reddit or 4chan or wherever they want without such requirements. If editors cannot follow our BLP requirements, they need to stop editing either voluntarily or involuntarily. Nil Einne (talk) 10:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- If the mother had wanted privacy for her child, writing a book which makes it possible to identify her and know intimate details of her biology for the rest of her life, while documenting her transition step by step for hundreds of thousands of instagram followers, seem strange choices. I don't feel there are any privacy concerns here, that horse has long bolted, and we had nothing to do with opening the door.Boynamedsue (talk) 09:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support TBAN, no comment on IBAN. This is blatant POV harassment. (CC) Tbhotch 21:55, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support. Editors in this topic area can and often do disagree on the underlying issues, which often helpfully ensures that all such material on Misplaced Pages follows our policies and guidelines. However, the responses to Ad Orientem's request and various replies above shows that the proposed remedies would be appropriate given the BLP issues in play here.-- Patar knight - /contributions 22:28, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose any sanctions I’m sorry if I’m interfering in something I’m not involved with, but I’ve been watching this discussion and I think it’s needlessly toxic. What I’m seeing is a misunderstanding of some inappropriate WP:OR on a hot-button issue sparking a dispute that turned into “DarwIn is a transphobic bully” which I don’t think is true. I think the two main parties should simply avoid each other voluntarily and the situation will quickly de-escalate. Dronebogus (talk) 05:09, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support TBAN, indifferent to IBAN. Having followed this topic for a few days, it's convinced me that a topic ban for both GENSEX and BLP is entirely appropriate in this instance. My initial scepticism passed after reading responses from the editor and realising that the understanding of BLP policy appears to be even more incomplete than I originally thought. The deceleration from the editor to avoid such topics voluntarily is irrelevant, as combined with the lack of understanding over the concept of broadly construed, commitments have already been made and broken within this discussion alone. So respectfully, I believe this WP:NOTHERE type editing, whether it is attempting to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS or simply WP:BLUDGEONING discussions, is nonetheless disruptive and uncivil at times. CNC (talk) 18:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose per Dronebogus. I'd say "we're better than this" if I believed it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose Skyshifter, if anything, is harassing Darwin in this instance. Darwin has agreed to an IBAN, never mind that he's expressed desires to deëscelate what has become the longest thread on AN or ANI as of writing. JayCubby 22:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support This is a pretty explicit case of POV harassment. Their replies to the topic likewise do not give me faith they will adhere to a self imposed limitation. Darwin claimed to have agreed to step away before the ANI was created, but the edit history shows that Darwin continued editing the page up until an hour before Skyshifter created the ANI. Thus, there should be an actionable sanction. I fail to understand how it is Skyshifter doing the harassment at all as Cubby suggests. Darwin even called skyshifter a troglydite (here) to boot. Relm (talk) 15:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oh my fucking god. This whole thread is nuts. I wish I could pardon my french but this is CRAZY.
- Never in a million years would’ve I expected myself to be responding to a thread like this but I mean here I am.
- Although Skywing’s concerns of harassment are valid especially if he’s being tracked across Misplaced Pages’s website, as far as I know, there are no guidelines that state someone can be punished for actions on another Misplaced Pages.
- I support the notion of Darwin being topic banned from gender related articles (especially trans ones), for the simple fact that his conflict of interest with transphobia has clearly caused a disruption to the Misplaced Pages community.
- I oppose with the IP-ban because if anything this SHOULD’VE ended a week ago when Darwin voluntarily said he would not edit those pages as well as avoid any interaction with Skywing.
Reader of Information (talk) 15:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)- No one has proposed an IP Ban. The Aforementioned 'IBan' is a one way interaction-ban. Relm (talk) 16:28, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I understand, I meant that. Apologies. I misunderstood what it stood for. I would prefer if the IBAN was two way instead of one-way. Seems hardly fair in my honest opinion when both I suppose are equally responsible and to share the blame. This is a messy situation so putting the blame on one when both are equally responsible seems hardly fair. But that's my two cents.
- NOTE: I don't condone homophobia or queerphobia or whatever the term is (I'm not really informed enough in this situation to know what Misplaced Pages calls it so I'm adding both just in case) so please don't take it as me defending either side as that is NOT my intent.
- Cheers,
Reader of Information (talk) 01:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC)- This reply reminded me of the essay WP:CLUE. CNC (talk) 01:15, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Lol. It is accurate. That literally is what it is I suppose lol. Reader of Information (talk) 01:19, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- This reply reminded me of the essay WP:CLUE. CNC (talk) 01:15, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- No one has proposed an IP Ban. The Aforementioned 'IBan' is a one way interaction-ban. Relm (talk) 16:28, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose any sanctions against Darwin per Dronebogus. I wish we were better than this, but like TBUA, I don't actually believe that we are. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 20:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support both TBAN and IBAN. Their behaviour at DYK might have been mitigated if they had taken responsibility here instead of doubling down. A TBAN and IBAN will reduce disruption. TarnishedPath 01:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- After I left my comment above and after providing Darwin with a CTOP notice they commented at Special:Diff/1267644460 accusing me of coming to their talk page to "
further troll me with this nonsense warning
". TarnishedPath 01:39, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- After I left my comment above and after providing Darwin with a CTOP notice they commented at Special:Diff/1267644460 accusing me of coming to their talk page to "
- Support both. I'm baffled that some people above are saying "well, they agreed to stop voluntarily" - did they not read the massive post Darwin made above? It amounts to an extended "I'm sorry that you were offended." Trusting that someone will avoid the same mistakes in the future on their own requires that they understand and admit to those mistakes, which is obviously not the case here; how can we trust that an editor will abide by a self-imposed restriction when they won't even meaningfully acknowledge the errors that made that restriction necessary? Therefore, sanctions are necessary. --Aquillion (talk) 03:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support both. To make sure I haven't lost my goddamn mind, I read this discussion twice. I personally believe Darwin is in the wrong here. His behavior on enwiki violates both GENSEX and BLP sanctions (), and he doubled down when he had the chance to defend himself (Special:Diff/1267644460 and comments above). Even if we play devil's advocate and assume Darwin's claims about Sky being a troll/vandal and sockmaster (which is a heavy accusation to make) on ptwiki are true, her work on enwiki has shown that she's changed for the better. This is coming from a person who has interacted with Sky a couple of times (Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Virtual Self (EP)/archive1, Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Virtual Self (EP)/archive2, Talk:Quannnic/GA1); she is an amazing editor on here. For the sake of everyone involved and to avoid another mess like this, the sanctions above should be enforced. 💽 LunaEclipse 💽 🌹 ⚧ 08:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support - the doubling (and tripling) down that this user engaged in above has convinced me that Misplaced Pages would be better off if he did not engage in the relevant topic areas. Hatman31 (he/him · talk · contribs) 17:31, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support both IBAN and TBAN. With all due respect to Dronebogus, there is no way this can be chalked up as just an OR misunderstanding when Darwin has gone out of his way to repeately misgender the individual in question while throwing personal attacks at Sky. Regardless of any issue at another wiki, the behavior here is unacceptable per our rules and guidelines. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:54, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support TBAN and IBAN: Really blatant transphobia. In case it gets lost in the weeds, Darwin's original comment sparking this whole thing was not just blatantly offensive but full of bullshit:
According to the sources in the article, after forcing the child she and her husband wanted to have as a boy to "behave like a boy" for 4 years, forcing him to play with cars, football and Marvel heros and even listen to heavy metal at 2-3 years old, and chasticizing him for liking "girl stuff" and throwing away all his "girl like" toys, until the poor child was proposing to die and reborn as a girl so he could play with that stuff, this openly conservative women finally gave up imposing such "boy stuff" on him and at 4 years old decided he was a girl instead, thrusting that identity on the child since then and eventually forming that NGO to "spread the word". I don't know this section very well, so maybe such troglodyte and incredibly prejudiced display of behaviour is something so bizarre it would be worth to have here, but I have to disagree.
- 1)
the poor child was proposing to die and reborn as a girl so could play with that stuff
- no source ever said this kid said that "so she could play with that stuff". The sources just say she persistently wished she'd been born a girl and said as much repeatedly. Darwin's offensive speculation as to why is not supported by any sources. Here's a quote from her mother about this nonsense:A boy who likes to play doll is not a trans girl. But a boy who besides liking to play doll, has desire to be the doll, be a girl, dress and have the look of the doll, then we are talking about a child who may have a gender issue.
- No source in the article says her mom "decided was a girl, thrusting that identity on the child since then" - On her 4th birthday, she told her
My love, from today you wear whatever clothes you want, play with whatever you want and can be whoever you want
- the mom said she'd stop pressuring her daughter to be a boy and that she could be who she wanted, and her daughter decided. - She is now 9 years old, almost 10, and happily trans. So, this is not even a case of insisting a 4-yr old can't tell they're trans, it's insisting that, after 5 years of being happily herself, it must have been forced on her.
- 1)
- The only
troglodyte and incredibly prejudiced display of behaviour
is expending this much energy attacking a fucking 9 year old and claiming her mother made her trans. I'm ashamed that PT wikipedia allowed him to do this there, and sanctioned Skyshifter for calling him on such blatant transphobia. We should have no tolerance for this bullshit whatsoever. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 22:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC)- Given that this involves cross-wiki behaviour, does anyone know if this is something which is actionable in the universal code of conduct? TarnishedPath 22:55, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support formal TBAN, indifferent to IBAN Snokalok (talk) 21:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support both TBAN and IBAN. WP:DROPTHESTICK. Ahri Boy (talk) 23:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see no evidence that any sanctions are necessary to stop disruption; indeed to the extent DarwIn was disruptive (and I am not convinced they were the problematic party), they have stopped, out of what appears to me to be a genuine understanding of how to avoid the locus of disruption. --JBL (talk) 23:22, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support. I read through this entire epic saga and left with the impression that they didn't really seem to get that the BLP and MOS issues aren't something they can just shrug their shoulders at. --Emm90 (talk) 12:58, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
Skyshifter taking matters from another Misplaced Pages to seek revenge.
| 100% affairs of other wikis. - The Bushranger One ping only 01:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC) |
|---|
| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
This entire subsection is about Eduardo Gottert casting aspersions on Skyshifter and providing no diffs or evidence of this "revenge" except for statements about what is going on on another language Misplaced Pages which have no bearing on what occurs here. I'm closing this now before this WP:BOOMERANGs on to Eduardo Gottert and editors start proposing a block for personal attacks. Baseless counter attacks are generally dismissed at the English Misplaced Pages ANI. Please do not reopen this section. Liz 09:00, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. On the 29th of December, User:Skyshifter started an AN/I based on a claim that User:DarwIn, a sysop at ptwiki, was cross-wiki harrassing her. To make up those claims, she used as a single proof, of him editing on a DYK nomination here. AFAIK, DYK nominations are open for debate. She accused him of transphobia, a very harsh word, over some 5 edits on the same page, and all the other arguments in her accusation were from the ptwiki with absolutely no relation to the English Misplaced Pages, and she tried to "force" that it was a cross-wiki harrassment, when it wasn't. The sole reason for that AN/I is a beef from Skyshifter with DarwIn. But all of this happened only, and just because of her banishment for the portuguese wiki. She is the cross-wiki harrasser in this situation, as she came to a project where DarwIn hasn't got nearly as many edits as his home-wiki and most of his edits are on discussions or category/commons related, to try blocking him and thus tarnish his block log. This is all for revenge of some articles that are being debated and will be either deleted or merged with other articles, and especially over her permanent block on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, after calling the whole platform a sewage (here and in her UP), casting aspersions over other users and using ducks and meatpuppets to revert back the articles (one of her meats is currently being blocked from ptwiki too, see it here, with all the proofs). The block discussion taking place at the moment has 10 administrator votes in favour of the block, and absolutely no contrary opinion whatsoever. Despite some not-so-good arguments from DarwIn in the AN/I above, it is more than clear that the reason for the opening of the said AN/I was personal and for revenge. I'm open to any questions regarding this topic, as there is plenty of evidence to sustain my claims. All of this that she's doing would clearly fall under pt:WP:NDD, here called WP:ASPERSIONS I think, and disruptive editing/WP:POINT, and in the AN/I above she's commiting WP:BLUDGEON, repeating the eye-catching word "transphobia" over and over, without sustaining her argument accordingly, seeking to block a sysop at other 3 projects and rollbacker here, with the sole objective of tarnishing his block log, just for revenge and self-fullfillment. Eduardo G. 05:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
|
Incivility and ABF in contentious topics
Hob Gadling's uncivil comments and assuming bad faith on multiple contentious talk pages is not necessarily egregious but I suppose it is problematic and chronic, consistent and ongoing. I would appreciate some assistance. Here are some diffs from the past few days:
Disparaging another editor's intellect and reasoning skills.
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Stephanie_Seneff&diff=prev&oldid=1266584883
WP:NPA
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Harald_Walach&diff=prev&oldid=1266713324
Profanity
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:James_Tour&diff=prev&oldid=1267046966
Assuming "malicious" intent; profanity; deprecating the editor
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory&diff=prev&oldid=1267154877
Unicivil
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Mick_West&diff=prev&oldid=1267158027
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267160441
Contact on user page attempted
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Hob_Gadling&diff=prev&oldid=1267160795
Assuming bad faith, accusing editor of being incompetent
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267163557Lardlegwarmers (talk) 03:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Think this calls for a fierce trout slapping and some direct words. I cannot really endorse a forced wikibreak according to WP:COOLDOWN, as this is just an angry user and frankly, I don't see direct personal attacks, I just see unfriendly behavior and prick-ish attitude, no outward disruption of the project either. Also, I have to ask for further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions, as
some diffs from the past few days
are not indicative of chronic issue. The holiday times, like Christmas, Hanukkah, and New Years' can be some of the most stressful times for people during the year. Not saying I like seeing this, but I can understand the feeling. BarntToust 04:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC)- Would I be the person to provide you with that
further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions
? I did think that it would be more than a WP:FISHSLAP, since that's forone-off instances of seemingly silly behavior
and this is more like a perpetual bad habit that needs something a bit stronger, like a stern warning. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 06:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Would I be the person to provide you with that
- @Lardlegwarmers: I don't see anything violating policy with regard to direct personal attacks or even profanity directed at a person, but rather directed to the topic in the discussion. Hob should know better, and as per BarntToust, Hob really deserves a trout to be a bit more civil and how to WP:AVOIDEDITWAR. But I would caution you about WP:BOOMERANG and the new attention to your activity and involvement this has drawn to your own edits. For example your inappropriate recently deleted user page, removing sections from other people's talk page, and it seems like you're having a problem handling a WP:DISPUTE and assuming bath faith of editors. You are not going to win a battle to get your material included by trying to report other editors in bad faith.
- Furthermore it does appear that you might be WP:FORUMSHOPPING because your attempts at WP:POVPUSH for your specific perspectives regarding Covid are meeting resistance at every turn. passively accusing editor behavior, directly accusing a specific editor bad behavior, claiming WP is political, RSN Report #1, RSN Report #2 to push for an article edit request, bringing the Covid discussion over to the teahouse, and now this ANI report. Without evaluating everything you've discussed in the past few weeks, at quick glance it appears that you're having problems understanding Misplaced Pages's policy and guidelines and are having contentious discussions with far more experienced editors. That isn't to say that we assume that they're correct and you're wrong, but when you're receiving pushback from multiple very experienced editors, I would encourage you to slow down a bit and try to fully understand the policy, and isntead of arguing to "win", you need to read about how you need to work towards WP:CONSENSUS. Because at the end of the day, without consensus, you will continue to have a lot of problems. TiggerJay (talk) 05:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I appreciate the feedback and will take it into consideration and try to refine my approach to disputes. My intention has been to address unique issues as they arise, versus shopping around the same old dispute. For example, the current ANI topic pertains specifically to some rude behavior that has been going on for quite some time and doesn't show any sign of stopping despite my attempts to resolve it directly. The editor in question actually seems pretty reasonable in their interpretation of the sources but I speculate that there might be a perception in the rank-and-file that it's OK to be pretty uncivil to editors who advocate for moving the NPOV because they're naturally afraid of putting their own head on the chopping block, so to speak. I suppose raising these issues in relevant venues is in line with guidelines. Both of those RSN discussions were related to distinct sourcing problems and resulted in useful resolutions that aligned with my concerns. The Teahouse posts about the Covid content disputes and a question regarding the politics of Misplaced Pages was in response to an administrator’s suggestion (]) that I drop by there for a discussion, and I found the feedback from experienced users there helpful. My talk page comments about user behavior were meant to discuss issues first on talk pages, per the ANI guidelines. (
All content and conduct issues should be discussed first at the talk page of the relevant article or user before requesting dispute resolution.
]) Thank you for your time and input. - Lardlegwarmers (talk) 07:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I hope the editors who read this will notice the ABF here:
trying to report other editors in bad faith
. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 21:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I appreciate the feedback and will take it into consideration and try to refine my approach to disputes. My intention has been to address unique issues as they arise, versus shopping around the same old dispute. For example, the current ANI topic pertains specifically to some rude behavior that has been going on for quite some time and doesn't show any sign of stopping despite my attempts to resolve it directly. The editor in question actually seems pretty reasonable in their interpretation of the sources but I speculate that there might be a perception in the rank-and-file that it's OK to be pretty uncivil to editors who advocate for moving the NPOV because they're naturally afraid of putting their own head on the chopping block, so to speak. I suppose raising these issues in relevant venues is in line with guidelines. Both of those RSN discussions were related to distinct sourcing problems and resulted in useful resolutions that aligned with my concerns. The Teahouse posts about the Covid content disputes and a question regarding the politics of Misplaced Pages was in response to an administrator’s suggestion (]) that I drop by there for a discussion, and I found the feedback from experienced users there helpful. My talk page comments about user behavior were meant to discuss issues first on talk pages, per the ANI guidelines. (
@Lardlegwarmers: Jay brought something to my attention with a recent version of your user page. It looks like there is large language model (ChatGPT) text about "COVID-19 Natural Immunity" copied and pasted on there. What in the cheeseballs?? What made you think hmm, let's prompt ShatGPT to churn out 700 words about this random out-of-pocket topic, and I'm gonna post this on my Misplaced Pages user page for no reason! I'm confused. This specific revision also assumes bad faith about IP editors, and here's the rich part: just as you copy-pasted text from ChatGPT about COVID to your user page, you go on to write a section that addresses use of AI. Quoting from an AI chat bot without attribution is plaigiarism.
I'm just confused with what you are doing here. So I'd like to ask you, since you are here at ANI now, what in the sam hill is going on here? If there is a reasonable explanation for this goofiness, I suggest you produce one, not from a prompt entered into ChatGPT, in your own words. BarntToust 16:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- It is an old version of their user page, and it is not plagiarism to quote from a chat bot even without attribution, so we must assume that you are attempt to detract from the OP's complaint. The issue at hand is an experienced editor who joins talk page discussions without understanding the topic at hand (which they admit in one instance ), and are frequently use derogatory language and tone towards other editors. This behavior does not seem like a new thing for them and they clearly know how to skirt the edge of what would be considered a personal attack by an admin, so this merits a formal warning. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- look, the other guy is acting pissy, and I agree with the formal warning. But @IntrepidContributor, you should familiarise yourself with WP:BOOMERANG. The long short of it if you didn't click on one of the several instances of it being linked above: If an editor attempts to bring someone else to ANI while having dirty laundry themselves, this editor will likely be found out for their dirty laundry. And that's what I'm doing right now. BarntToust 18:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I know what WP:BOOMERANG is and I telling you that you appears to be here only to detract from the complaint, and the way you are doing it by dragging up something from old user page and making claims of plagirism is highly suspect. If an admin scrolls through Hob's comments on the lab leak topic page, they will see that they are almost all designed to provoke and demean other editors. This highly inappropriate for such a difficult topic area where editors struggle to agree on NPOV. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- So far, there's agreement that this is unbecoming behaviour from Hob, and they need a WP:TROUT slap to wake them the heck up from the bad behaviour. I do not understand why the jester cannot be questioned for his goofy behaviour when he shows himself to be goofy as he tries to alert everyone of the fool's, uh, foolishness. No offence intended from this medieval analogy. BarntToust 18:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- BarntToust You're being bitey and you need to stop. WP:BOOMERANG is for when the reporter is the one causing the problems, not for airing "dirty laundry" as you yourself describe it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- well, I tend to get concerned when someone with LLM text pasted on their userpage comes up from the water. If that's considered bite-y to reiterate my concerns in intentional lighthearted analogy in order to seem less hard-headed, then I guess we're done here. @Thebiguglyalien, I invite you to weigh in on whether you think a formal warning or a trout slap is what needs to happen to Hob. BarntToust 19:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- BarntToust You're being bitey and you need to stop. WP:BOOMERANG is for when the reporter is the one causing the problems, not for airing "dirty laundry" as you yourself describe it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- So far, there's agreement that this is unbecoming behaviour from Hob, and they need a WP:TROUT slap to wake them the heck up from the bad behaviour. I do not understand why the jester cannot be questioned for his goofy behaviour when he shows himself to be goofy as he tries to alert everyone of the fool's, uh, foolishness. No offence intended from this medieval analogy. BarntToust 18:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I know what WP:BOOMERANG is and I telling you that you appears to be here only to detract from the complaint, and the way you are doing it by dragging up something from old user page and making claims of plagirism is highly suspect. If an admin scrolls through Hob's comments on the lab leak topic page, they will see that they are almost all designed to provoke and demean other editors. This highly inappropriate for such a difficult topic area where editors struggle to agree on NPOV. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- look, the other guy is acting pissy, and I agree with the formal warning. But @IntrepidContributor, you should familiarise yourself with WP:BOOMERANG. The long short of it if you didn't click on one of the several instances of it being linked above: If an editor attempts to bring someone else to ANI while having dirty laundry themselves, this editor will likely be found out for their dirty laundry. And that's what I'm doing right now. BarntToust 18:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- That content from ChatGPT was meant to go in my sandbox as experiment or for assisting with research into a future article. The LLM can generate wikitext with links to articles that already exist. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 18:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- When you get a bunch of text from a large language model, you get unsourced content. If you ask ChatGPT for info, you run the serious risk of getting false content. So, either way you take it: If you get text, then try to re-write it cohesively, and find sources for it, you are writing an article backwards and that is to be discouraged; if you are asking AI to gain an understanding on an unfamiliar topic, you are likely to run into false information. If you use AI for either of these purposes, @Lardlegwarmers, I suggest you be very judicious about how you go about "leveraging AI". There are more ways that can go wrong than I need to count on the ANI. BarntToust 18:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why are you on this administrator page making these spurious claims of plagiarism and giving this unsolicited advices? IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- @IntrepidContributor, I'm pointing out questionable content on someone else page. please look at this diff on Lardle's user page for context, in which they copied ChatGPT text without attribution, then said that using ChatGPT without attribution is plagiarism. That contradictory stuff is what I was questioning. please click on the diff for context. BarntToust 19:11, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I use it more like a (really good) search engine or a thesaurus. It can give a lot of suggestions for a human writer, but ultimately you use your own mind and RS to formulate the facts and how to present them. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 19:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- that's a good moderation mindset to use. I'm satisfied with your answer, it makes enough sense. Carry on! BarntToust 19:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks! *curtsy* Lardlegwarmers (talk) 00:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- that's a good moderation mindset to use. I'm satisfied with your answer, it makes enough sense. Carry on! BarntToust 19:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why are you on this administrator page making these spurious claims of plagiarism and giving this unsolicited advices? IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- When you get a bunch of text from a large language model, you get unsourced content. If you ask ChatGPT for info, you run the serious risk of getting false content. So, either way you take it: If you get text, then try to re-write it cohesively, and find sources for it, you are writing an article backwards and that is to be discouraged; if you are asking AI to gain an understanding on an unfamiliar topic, you are likely to run into false information. If you use AI for either of these purposes, @Lardlegwarmers, I suggest you be very judicious about how you go about "leveraging AI". There are more ways that can go wrong than I need to count on the ANI. BarntToust 18:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- The lack of civility in this contentious topic is significantly hindering editing efforts, especially since most issues concern neutrality and tone, which requires a careful and nuanced approach. IntrepidContributor (talk) 17:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I can't see anything in the original report that does anything other than show that Hob Gadling calls a thicko a thicko. What is wrong with that? Phil Bridger (talk) 18:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Phil Bridger As someone who was the recipient of one of those attacks in the example, I'm curious, what is a "thicko" and why do you believe that I am one? Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 19:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- ...according to the Cambridge English Dictionary, it means "a stupid person" - which would make it a personal attack. - The Bushranger One ping only 19:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, in British slang, "thick" = "stupid". GiantSnowman 19:54, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- ...according to the Cambridge English Dictionary, it means "a stupid person" - which would make it a personal attack. - The Bushranger One ping only 19:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Phil Bridger As someone who was the recipient of one of those attacks in the example, I'm curious, what is a "thicko" and why do you believe that I am one? Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 19:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
There is not enough context for the examples of impatience from Hob Gadling which the OP offers. For example, Lardlegwarmers, do you really expect a warm welcome for your 'attempted contact on user page' here? Or for your puritanical reproaches about HG's use of "profanity" (which normally turns out to mean using the word bullshit, which is by no means banned from Misplaced Pages, nor is its expressiveness easy to replace with something more flattering). Considering what they're replying to, this supposed "disparag of another editor's intellect and reasoning skills" seems pretty temperate. And so on. Bishonen | tålk 20:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC).
- I'm not suggesting we should wash anybody's mouth out with soap. The editor's consistent uncivil behavior is more than just the occasional salty diction here and there. I mean, look at this user page discussion where an editor is asking for a discussion on why Hob Gadling reverted his edit. It seems as if the person was trying to do it on the talk page and was ignored. Hob Gadling gruffly tells the other editor to get lost. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 01:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- My experience is that this kind of aggression is standard operating procedure for the defendant. I'd basically given up on them seeing any consequences for it - it's been going on for a long time, so I assumed this is one of the cases where editors with enough "social capital" get an exemption from CIVIL. I doubt a trout will have lasting effect. - Palpable (talk) 02:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- My experience with and attitude toward Hob is 100% the same as described here by Palpable. It goes back a while ... ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 22:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Hob Gadling failing to yield to WP:BLPRESTORE, apparently missing both the discussion and RSN link from the talk page. Asserting an unreliable source as reliable in order to describe the subject as having a ‘victim complex’. SmolBrane (talk) 23:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Note that Hob edited the talk page after re-adding this content; he should have self reverted if he missed this discussion prior. SmolBrane (talk) 00:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Propose serving of trout to both. Hob likely may have acted a hair too strongly to a source of exasperation; but not enough for any warning. Lardlegwarmers provides a large helping of such and I would suggest a boom if not for BITE. Albeit, Lardlegwarmers’ knowledge of WP is beyond the average for an editor with 5x the posts. I would suggest a non-logged warning to Lardlegwarmers on the concept of collaboration for their own good. Otherwise, we are likely to see them back here given their attitude at both this filing and at Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory. (Disclaimer, I have been involved.) O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- For context, O3000, Ret. is on the other "side" from me in a content dispute along with Hob Gadling (])Lardlegwarmers (talk) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am on the "side" of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines and am not arguing any content issues here. But I did state I was involved. O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Best not to imply that your opposition is not on the side of the rules. Given this comment and your involvement, I think you should recuse. SmolBrane (talk) 00:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Recuse
Appears that you have over 500 edits to Covid related article pages including their TPs. That's approaching 50% of your lifetime edits and 250 times the percentage of my edits in that area. Consider that in your short time here, you were blocked for egregious and repeated bad-faith assumptions. Probably should avoid that in future as this appears to be the same. Meanwhile, I stand by my post here and involved editors add value; so I will not suggest that you recuse. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- To be clear, I was suggesting recusing from proposals, not from discussion. Regards. SmolBrane (talk) 02:10, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Recuse
- Best not to imply that your opposition is not on the side of the rules. Given this comment and your involvement, I think you should recuse. SmolBrane (talk) 00:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am on the "side" of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines and am not arguing any content issues here. But I did state I was involved. O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- If you click through the diffs, you’ll notice that many other editors have received the rude comments, so this is more than a 1-on-1 scuffle with me and Hob Gadling. I stopped compiling examples after finding 9 examples of visible hostility out of their most recent dozen diffs, but like I mentioned to BarntToust above, I can go back further if you need me to, to illustrate the chronic pattern. And the handful of other editors who have spoken up here who have been aggrieved speak for themselves. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 03:31, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- For context, O3000, Ret. is on the other "side" from me in a content dispute along with Hob Gadling (])Lardlegwarmers (talk) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- As a note, Hob Gadling removed the ANI notice without comment and has not responded here. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hob Gadling is allowed to do whatever they want to their user talk page including removing notifications of discussions. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 00:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Never said they weren't. Just noting that they clearly received the notice and chose not to respond here, which is a response in and of itself. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hob Gadling is allowed to do whatever they want to their user talk page including removing notifications of discussions. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 00:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
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Wish Hob Gadling would not act like a profane teenager on talk page discussions and that they'd treat people without the smartass-y-ness and contempt. If they are so committed to being pissy towards other users while being shut-off in their own la-la-land, maybe they need a block until they're willing to face the music. BarntToust 01:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
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It should be noted that Lardlegwarmers, after only truly starting editing two months ago, has been actively pushing WP:FRINGE misinformation, particularly on Covid related pages. They have actively been making claims that the scientific community is trying to cover things up, such as here, and has been using poor quality sources to try and claim that major published scientific papers on the topic are false, such as here. This entire thread just sounds like an attempt to silence another editor who has been actively dealing with fringe POV-pushers across numerous articles, such as those linked by Lardlegwarmers above. Silverseren 02:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning. And it seems that's the case here. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 02:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I haven't seen any evidence presented that would put Hob Gadling in the wrong; after reviewing the diffs I'm scratching my head and can only conclude that some of the people above have been commenting without reading them. Most of them are not even mildly uncivil. Going over them, the majority are clearly criticizing someone's argument (or the specific reasoning they presented), which is not a personal attack; and others aren't violations at all. Misplaced Pages editors are not forbidden from using profanity; the fact that Lardlegwarmers' unconvincing throw-every-unconnected-thing-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks approach here extended to the fact that their target used the word (gasp!)
bullshit
to describe an argument that did, in fact, turn out to be bullshit shows how weak it is. What's more alarming is that that was what led Lardlewarmers to try and their target on their talk page, a hamhanded effort whose sheer inappropriateness they remain sufficiently tone-deaf to that they made the mistake of bragging about it here as part of their "report". This is a straightforward WP:BOOMERANG situation. --Aquillion (talk) 02:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC)- There's only so much we can handle when someone has had five years to fulfill their promise and "turn over a new leaf" in situations like this one. Misplaced Pages would be better off if people were more willing to tell people to stop before it's too late and stop treating aggressive or uncivil behavior as a "lesser" crime. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 03:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- The reason I cited numerous diffs was to substantiate, as I said in my post, that this is a chronic and ongoing habit of rude and uncivil behavior. I posted the diff of Hob Gadling's user page not to "brag" (and I don't understand how you inferred that), but rather to show that I followed ANI procedure to address conduct disputes first on the user page and that my attempt was dismissed without Hob Gadling addressing it except to blank the comment with the explantion that I wasn't welcome on his page.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I haven't seen any evidence presented that would put Hob Gadling in the wrong; after reviewing the diffs I'm scratching my head and can only conclude that some of the people above have been commenting without reading them. Most of them are not even mildly uncivil. Going over them, the majority are clearly criticizing someone's argument (or the specific reasoning they presented), which is not a personal attack; and others aren't violations at all. Misplaced Pages editors are not forbidden from using profanity; the fact that Lardlegwarmers' unconvincing throw-every-unconnected-thing-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks approach here extended to the fact that their target used the word (gasp!)
- I am not trying to silence anyone. See above, I recommend a stern warning about consistent uncivil comments and that’s it. If Hob Gadling has something substantive to say, they can say it without demeaning the editors as if this is a combat sport instead of a discussion about articles of text. I encourage y'all to check out the discussions linked to by Silverseren. I have been careful to use sources, present my suggestions in good faith, and stay neutral in personal interactions. I am genuinely trying to find consensus. I'll mention that Silverseren is also involved in the content dispute, providing sources that myself and several other editors believe do not verify an extraordinary claim in the article. (Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory#c-Silver_seren-20241231185800-Slatersteven-20241230182700) It's getting to the point where we should do a content moderation over that, since I am sure that the sources do not verify the claim but Silverseren apparently is sure that they do. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 03:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it was probably a poor choice for you to reference Silverseren's discussion as proof of one-sided UNCIVIL behavior. There is precious little in your first response to Hob in this specific LL section that makes your point that that you're trying to find consensus, but rather demonstrates a heavy handed I'm right because I can cite more WP policies in bolded type. As the Alien above said, you
Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning.
now WP:DROPTHESTICK. TiggerJay (talk) 18:57, 6 January 2025 (UTC)- No, TiggerJay, that is false. Except for one link to Misplaced Pages:Civility, the links you mentioned are all main-space articles to describe the fallacies contained in Hob Gadling's arguments, including the use of ad hominem, as part of my intention to focus on and steer the conversation towards a discussion of the content, not attacking the person (Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory#c-Lardlegwarmers-20250103194100-Hob Gadling-20250102085800). This is the second comment you have posted in this discussion that mischaracterizes my actions and falsely accuses me of bad faith.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 19:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- For the record I do agree with you that Hob's position was absolutely a fallacy; I might assume they might have even been bating you. I also agree that you also have references to main space article, beyond the single reference to policy. I even agree that there is an probably conflict of interest with those virologists you named, but unless their editing Misplaced Pages that is irrelevant unless you're performing WP:OR or WP:SYNTH, rather we depend on WP:RS and WP:UNDUE to help navigate such things. You claimed that you intented to
steer the conversation towards a discussion of the content, not attacking the person
. However, that is not what I read in that reply. Out of the gate you're calling Hob uncivil, their arguments are false, and then lobbing further accusations. You get the discussion wrapped up arguing over who said what, and what they meant by it, and why your positions are valid and theirs are not. As for bad faith, I'll invite to other editors to comment below if they agree that I'm the one presuming bad faith towards you. Cheers! TiggerJay (talk) 00:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- Your point about RS is well-taken. However, per WP:RS, concerns about the reliability of a particular source ought to be discussed on the article talk page (Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2#c-Lardlegwarmers-20250105151700-Credibility_of_major_scientific_journals_on_Covid) first when it is only germane to the particular topic and not the publication as a whole.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 00:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think I understand what you're referring to about RS. Yes, there are times when a source is otherwise considered reliable (or even un-reliable) but consensus can be found with regards to a specific narrow aspect of it that might warrant it's inclusion or exclusions, or some variation on how it is presented or the weight afforded to it in the article. And that comes through talk page consensus as you mentioned and does not necessarily need to be unanimous. TiggerJay (talk) 01:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Your point about RS is well-taken. However, per WP:RS, concerns about the reliability of a particular source ought to be discussed on the article talk page (Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2#c-Lardlegwarmers-20250105151700-Credibility_of_major_scientific_journals_on_Covid) first when it is only germane to the particular topic and not the publication as a whole.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 00:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- For the record I do agree with you that Hob's position was absolutely a fallacy; I might assume they might have even been bating you. I also agree that you also have references to main space article, beyond the single reference to policy. I even agree that there is an probably conflict of interest with those virologists you named, but unless their editing Misplaced Pages that is irrelevant unless you're performing WP:OR or WP:SYNTH, rather we depend on WP:RS and WP:UNDUE to help navigate such things. You claimed that you intented to
- No, TiggerJay, that is false. Except for one link to Misplaced Pages:Civility, the links you mentioned are all main-space articles to describe the fallacies contained in Hob Gadling's arguments, including the use of ad hominem, as part of my intention to focus on and steer the conversation towards a discussion of the content, not attacking the person (Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory#c-Lardlegwarmers-20250103194100-Hob Gadling-20250102085800). This is the second comment you have posted in this discussion that mischaracterizes my actions and falsely accuses me of bad faith.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 19:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it was probably a poor choice for you to reference Silverseren's discussion as proof of one-sided UNCIVIL behavior. There is precious little in your first response to Hob in this specific LL section that makes your point that that you're trying to find consensus, but rather demonstrates a heavy handed I'm right because I can cite more WP policies in bolded type. As the Alien above said, you
Being entirely blunt, if we have two visions of Misplaced Pages: one in which people are occasionally rude or incivil to people who tout pseudoscience concerning major diseases and one in which pseudoscience concerning major diseases makes its way into article space then I'll gladly sign up for the rude / incivil Misplaced Pages over the pseudoscience one. This is to say that being rude is most certainly a lesser offense
. Simonm223 (talk) 20:23, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please check out the article and discussion. The lab leak theory is not pseudoscience, but rather a scientific hypothesis which important scientists have suggested is worthy of serious investigation (]). Although the evidence strongly favors a zoonotic origin, the investigation is inconclusive. In any case, I would favor a Misplaced Pages where civil discussion leads to a balanced representation of what is published in reliable sources. If your position is supported by the sources, there is no need to resort to name calling. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 20:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's pseudoscience and a pseudoscientific hypotheses burdened with quite a few racist and conspiracist adherents who want to propose China intentionally spread a plague just to weaken the United States. Preventing the promulgation of this specific pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic. Simonm223 (talk) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- What you are describing is a different idea: the COVID-19 bioweapon conspiracy theory. The lab leak hypothesis would be that the pandemic started due to researchers being accidentally infected with the virus.
the World Health Organization is recommending in its strongest terms yet that a deeper probe is required into whether a lab accident may be to blame. ]
The fact that the virus is not human-made does not necessarily exclude the possibility that the virus escaped the lab by accident (Field 2020; Guterl et al. 2020). This remains an open question; without independent and transparent investigations, it may never be either proven or disproven. The leakage of dangerous pathogens had already occurred more than once in other labs.
(]) Lardlegwarmers (talk) 21:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC)- That's not what the article is about. It is about a "conspiracy theory". But this is entirely irrelevant to this noticeboard. This noticeboard is about behavior, not content. It can be extraordinarily frustrating to those who have been building this encyclopedia for ages (20 years in the case of Hob Gadling) to deal with large numbers of brandy new editors trying to push new conspiracy theories, often politically motivated. If you wish respect, try supplying some yourself. Believe me, it will aide you in your work here. I stand by my proposal of trouting you both and an unlogged warning to you that is for your own good if you wish to continue contributing. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Beyond what @Objective3000 said, for all parties, it doesn't matter who is "right" (when it comes to the article or talk pages), that is not sufficient to be uncivil WP:BRINE. TiggerJay (talk) 01:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Indeed. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- If Hob Gadling wants to "deal with" new editors who threaten Misplaced Pages, it should not be through aggression and insulting them openly, but through quality sources and discussion. Editors who sympathize with "fringe" ideas might be more cooperative if they didn't have to defend themselves against offensive comments in response to their suggestions. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 07:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Beyond what @Objective3000 said, for all parties, it doesn't matter who is "right" (when it comes to the article or talk pages), that is not sufficient to be uncivil WP:BRINE. TiggerJay (talk) 01:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's not what the article is about. It is about a "conspiracy theory". But this is entirely irrelevant to this noticeboard. This noticeboard is about behavior, not content. It can be extraordinarily frustrating to those who have been building this encyclopedia for ages (20 years in the case of Hob Gadling) to deal with large numbers of brandy new editors trying to push new conspiracy theories, often politically motivated. If you wish respect, try supplying some yourself. Believe me, it will aide you in your work here. I stand by my proposal of trouting you both and an unlogged warning to you that is for your own good if you wish to continue contributing. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- If this "old grievance" about the FTN exemption to CIVIL really has been thoroughly hashed out, could someone link the discussion from WP:FTNCIVIL or something? Being up front about it would save time here at ANI, plus it's always heartbreaking to watch as earnest new editors learn about this the hard way. - Palpable (talk) 01:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Palpable, were you canvassed to this conversation? You seem to be a very inactive editor. I've made more IP edits in a month than you have edits in two decades. I'm curious how such a new editor found this. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 01:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am in the diffs.
- I would still like a pointer to the discussion of why FTN regulars get an exemption from CIVIL, I honestly think that should be better understood. - Palpable (talk) 02:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- They don't have an exemption, and I challenge you to provide a diff proving they do. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 03:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think he was referring to the comment by Simonm223 above:
Preventing the promulgation of this specific pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic.
] Lardlegwarmers (talk) 07:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- That diff certainly doesn't prove anyone is exempt from policy. I think it's interesting Palpable said he was following diffs instead of saying he was involved in the content dispute underlying this complaint. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 21:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think he was referring to the comment by Simonm223 above:
- They don't have an exemption, and I challenge you to provide a diff proving they do. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 03:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, they're one of the pro-fringe editors in the linked discussion. 208.87.236.180 (talk) 21:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Palpable, were you canvassed to this conversation? You seem to be a very inactive editor. I've made more IP edits in a month than you have edits in two decades. I'm curious how such a new editor found this. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 01:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- What you are describing is a different idea: the COVID-19 bioweapon conspiracy theory. The lab leak hypothesis would be that the pandemic started due to researchers being accidentally infected with the virus.
- It's pseudoscience and a pseudoscientific hypotheses burdened with quite a few racist and conspiracist adherents who want to propose China intentionally spread a plague just to weaken the United States. Preventing the promulgation of this specific pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic. Simonm223 (talk) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
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- Nie JB. "In the Shadow of Biological Warfare: Conspiracy Theories on the Origins of COVID-19 and Enhancing Global Governance of Biosafety as a Matter of Urgency." Journal of Bioethical Inquiry. 2020 Dec;17 https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7445685/
- https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_327#c-GPinkerton-2021-01-18T14:40:00.000Z-ScrupulousScribe-2021-01-18T14:27:00.000Z
- https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory#c-Shibbolethink-20250104081900-IntrepidContributor-20250103151400
Send to AE?
Given how long this has gone on for, may I make a suggestion? Send this to WP:AE since ANI seems incapable of resolving this, and it falls solidly into the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories. 208.87.236.180 (talk) 21:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Another claim that civility complaints are treated differently in "the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories".
- That matches my experience and I'm grateful to the people willing to say it out loud, but surely it would save a lot of drama and forum shopping if someone just wrote it down? - Palpable (talk) 22:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- The IP made no such claim? - The Bushranger One ping only 23:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I thought that was implicit in the request to move the civility complaint to a forum about fringe theories, but you're the expert. - Palpable (talk) 23:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- FYI WP:AE is arbitration enforcement, not the Fringe Theories noticeboard. Simonm223 (talk) 16:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's what I had thought, but the not logged in guy seems to be saying that a civility complaint should be moved to AE because it's a better venue for "the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories".
- It's really striking to me that the main argument here is not over whether Hob is civil, it's whether he should have to be. - Palpable (talk) 20:49, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- FYI WP:AE is arbitration enforcement, not the Fringe Theories noticeboard. Simonm223 (talk) 16:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I thought that was implicit in the request to move the civility complaint to a forum about fringe theories, but you're the expert. - Palpable (talk) 23:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- The IP made no such claim? - The Bushranger One ping only 23:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- As others have noted, being brusque with pseudoscience-pushers is an insignificant offense when compared to agenda-driven editors who are only here to advocate for a fringe topic. Esp. when they have only been editing for a handful of months. Zaathras (talk) 23:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- While I do agree that from an objective and absolute POV (e.g., of an external user evaluating Misplaced Pages) it is better to have an uncivil but pseudoscience-free Misplaced Pages than a civil but pseudoscientific Misplaced Pages, from a subjective and relative POV (e.g., of editors making internal decisions together) it is impossible to systematically abandon a relatively less important principle on the basis of a relatively more important principle without completely annihilating the less important principle. That's why wp:Being right is not enough is policy.
- Moreover, as others have also noted, because WP:CIVIL is a principle that at some point does get acted upon, we would all be better off if no one, on any side of any given debate, would minimize it. User:Barkeep49/Friends don't let friends get sanctioned. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 10:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Too much presumption of intent here with regard to 'pseudoscience-pushers'. It is easy for us to diminish our opponents in this way. Civility and NPOV are equal pillars. SmolBrane (talk) 15:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I second to motion to bring this to WP:AE. BarntToust 04:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Topic ban for Lardlegwarmers
Lardlegwarmers (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
A cursory look through this account's contributions has me convinced that they ought not to be contributing to COVID-19 Lab Leak Theory pages, widely construed. More generally, it seems they are using Misplaced Pages as a soapbox to promote a lot of what I would deem "anti-establishment" claims which necessarily run right up against the WP:MAINSTREAM remit of our encyclopedia. In fact, they are close to being a single-purpose account in this regard. Topic ban from American Politics might help reorient their problematic proclivities.
jps (talk) 21:38, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
Edit warring to prevent an RFC
@Axad12 has removed an RFC tag from Talk:Breyers#Request for comment on propylene glycol now twice within an hour.
Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment#Reasons and ways to end RfCs provides a list of circumstances under which you can stop an RFC started by someone else, and disagreeing with the question or wishing that it contained additional information is not in the list.
We have to be pretty strict about this, because an RFC is one of the few ways to attract the broader community's attention when there's an Misplaced Pages:Ownership of content problem or a Misplaced Pages:Walled garden that needs outside attention. The fact that an editor doesn't welcome outside attention sometimes indicates that there is a problem. I'm not saying that these things are happening in this case, but the rules have to be the rules for all RFCs, not just for the ones we agree with, because these things do happen in some cases. We can't really have opponents of an RFC question/proposal, no matter how well intentioned or how justified they think it is in this one case, unilaterally deciding that the rest of the community doesn't get to find out about the dispute.
I wouldn't bother with this here, except that it's already past my bedtime, so I need someone else to handle this. The proper way forward is to run the RFC, and for the loyal opposition to take the advice about how to respond that they'll find in the first two questions of the Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for comment/FAQ. See you tomorrow. WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- As previously explained elsewhere, I removed the tag because my understanding is that the serious COI issues invalidate the RfC.
- I am perfectly happy to take instruction on that point if I am incorrect but the removals were undertaken in good faith.
- The idea that I should be reported to ANI for this just because it is past someone's bedtime (and they don't have time for talk page discussion) seems to me rather an over-reaction. Axad12 (talk) 08:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Indeed, I am perfectly happy to volunteer to replace the tag if an administrator indicates that that is the appropriate course of action. Axad12 (talk) 08:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Axad12, please do not tamper with the RFC. I have already commented there again based on my previous assessment five weeks ago, and I have absolutely no conflict of interest in this matter. In my opinion, you are taking too aggressive a stance on this issue. I happen to be an administrator but I am also involved with the dispute as an ordinary editor. Cullen328 (talk) 08:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Axad12, I'd strongly suggest you return the tag. WhatamIdoing, a {{trout}} for WP:GRENADEing. - The Bushranger One ping only 08:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for both of your advice. I will shortly replace the template.
- The COI issue does not relate to Cullen, it relates to another user entirely. I would be grateful for input on the underlying COI issue, which seems to me to have been an exceptionally serious abuse. Axad12 (talk) 09:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- What? A company quite reasonably does not want to be falsely accused of adulterating their edible product with antifreeze, based on what a fringe source wrote, and you consider that
exceptionally serious abuse
? Cullen328 (talk) 09:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- What? A company quite reasonably does not want to be falsely accused of adulterating their edible product with antifreeze, based on what a fringe source wrote, and you consider that
- Indeed, I am perfectly happy to volunteer to replace the tag if an administrator indicates that that is the appropriate course of action. Axad12 (talk) 08:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, I'm referring to the series of events outlined here where a paid COI editor has a COI edit request turned down and then starts cultivating a co-operative project member to implement non-contentious COI edit requests before reintroducing the contentious COI edit request and immediately tipping off their repeatedly canvassed project member to implement that contentious request.
- I feel that that is an exceptionally serious abuse - clearly it is an attempt to distort the COI editing process by attempting to make sure that a previously co-operative project member deals with a resubmitted request rather than waiting for a random volunteer working out of the relevant queue (one of whom had previously declined the request).
- As I said above, I am quite happy to take instruction on this point - but personally I feel that what happened there was highly inappropriate. Axad12 (talk) 09:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- In other words, you want highly misleading content to remain in the article, just to make a point? Cullen328 (talk) 09:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Cullen, my post directly above is clearly about a point of process rather than a point of content.
- Even if the original COI edit request was incorrectly declined that would not justify the paid COI editor attempting to game the system to get the request through at the second time of asking. Axad12 (talk) 09:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- "Asking a second time" is not WP:Gaming the system. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Agreed, but for a COI user to attempt to influence which user will deal with the second request does constitute gaming the system. Axad12 (talk) 22:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, it doesn't. Read the guideline instead of guessing about its contents from the WP:UPPERCASE. See, e.g., An editor gaming the system is seeking to use policy in bad faith, by finding within its wording some apparent justification for disruptive actions and stances that policy is clearly not at all intended to support. Asking an individual to help has nothing to do with finding wording in a policy to justifying disruptive actions or stances that are not intended in that policy.
- I also direct your attention to the item that says Gaming the system may include...Filibustering the consensus-building process. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was using the phrase 'gaming the system' in it's natural application (not specifically referring to WP:GAMINGTHESYSTEM, which I didn't know existed until you linked to it above). Clearly the COI user was attempting to distort the COI edit request process in some way - whether one refers to what they were doing as 'gaming the system' or some other similar phrase is neither here nor there. Axad12 (talk) 23:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Agreed, but for a COI user to attempt to influence which user will deal with the second request does constitute gaming the system. Axad12 (talk) 22:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- "Asking a second time" is not WP:Gaming the system. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also worth noting that ever since the original COI edit request back in August the clear talk page consensus has been that the material should remain within the article and is not
highly misleading
. - I've been part of that consensus position since approx October/November. Since that time the user who opened the RfC has repeatedly been opening new threads, continually trying to re-address a subject where they are repeatedly in the minority and presumably hoping that those who previously opposed them do not turn up to oppose them again. Axad12 (talk) 10:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- In other words, you want highly misleading content to remain in the article, just to make a point? Cullen328 (talk) 09:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe we should hold an RFC on whether the RFC tag should be there? Phil Bridger (talk) 09:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Right, I've had breakfast now so am in a position to make a more serious reply. This is a content issue (on which I hold, as yet, no opinion). On this page we often tell editors that the way to settle a content issue that hasn't been settled by more informal methods is by holding an RFC. Axad12, you should express your opinion as part of the RFC, not oppose holding it. By your behaviour you are turning people against you who might have supported you. Phil Bridger (talk) 10:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've already said that I'd be happy to replace the tag if instructed to do so, and upon being instructed to do so I immediately replaced it. As far as I can see that issue is now resolved.
- I've asked for comment on the underlying COI issue, which is not a content issue. Axad12 (talk) 11:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- RFCs can handle COI issues. In fact, when WP:COIN can't resolve a dispute, they sometimes host an RFC to settle it. The nice thing about an RFC in such situations is that if it closes with an outcome like "The consensus is stick it to these fully policy-compliant, completely disclosed paid editors by making sure that this article implies the company's product was adulterated with a poisonous industrial chemical, just because we found one fad diet book that used this language, because it's really unreasonable of them to not want sensationalist and derogatory information in our article about their product" then you can generally be sure that the result will stick for at least 6 months and usually longer.
- But you've got to get that consensus first, and I'm not sure you will. For one thing, it's been my not-inconsiderable experience that when someone objects to holding an RFC because the question is biased, that's a fairly reliable sign that they expect the RFC result to not match their preference. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- My concern (rightly or wrongly) was simply that there was a COI element to the request which had not been disclosed. I swiftly requested clarification on that point and upon receiving that clarification I immediately reverted myself.
- It isn't really relevant here but actually I didn't expect the RfC to develop contrary to my preference. That was because the previous 4 months had indicated a consistent consensus opposing what the instigator of the RfC was proposing. In fact, to be perfectly honest, I don't actually have a particularly strong preference one way or the other on the issue at stake - I've simply consistently observed during November and December that the consensus was against Zefr, which seemed to me to be a simple matter of fact based on the various talk page threads from August to December. Axad12 (talk) 23:38, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- On matters concerning the Breyers article, Axad12 has been an uncollaborative, disruptive, and hostile editor tag-teamed with Graywalls, who is the main proponent over months of using the slur, "antifreeze", to describe a minor GRAS ingredient that is the subject of the current RfC. Both users have ignored requests on the talk page to collaborate for a factual, well-sourced article. Both users refused collaboration on the Breyers article content at DRN.
Having never contributed a sentence or source to the Breyers article, Axad12 has blatantly reverted simple, sourced edits claiming a false consensus which has no good source to support the propylene glycol/"antifreeze" claim and no evidence of consensus input by other editors over the last many weeks. An evolving consensus on the RfC is to exclude mention of propylene glycol as undue.
Scientific and legal literature concerning propylene glycol (article link) placed on the talk page have been ignored by both users, without attempts to discuss or apply what any objective editor reading the sources would agree are authoritative.
Proposal: Because of Axad12's hostile attempt to revert a legitimate RfC, tag-team behavior with Graywalls on the Breyers article edits, canvassing each other on its talk page, and here, as another example, Axad12 and Graywalls should be A-banned from the Breyers article and its talk page.
Support. Zefr (talk) 21:43, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Strike as withdrawn for Axad12 ABAN to concur with Cullen328 and the oppose decisions below.
- Graywalls is a separate case remaining undecided here. Over the 2024 article and talk page history at Breyers, this user was the main purveyor of disinformation, and has not acknowledged his talk page hostility and errors of judgment, despite abundant presentation of facts, sources, explanations, and challenges for information below. Graywalls should commit to abstain from editing the Breyers article for a given period, as Axad has done. Zefr (talk) 00:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Zefr:, your domineering and territoriality to that article is a big part of escalation and if anyone, it should be you who should refrain from it. Blatantly disregarding consensus and going so far as saying
Statements of facts supported by reliable sources do not need talk page consensus.
as done in here which goes to show you feel you're above consensus. You weren't persuaded until you were corrected by two administrors Aoidh and Philknight on the matter on the belief you're entitled to insert certain things against consensus. You also were blocked for the fifth time for edit warring in that article, with previous ones being at different articles with dispute with other editors, which shows your lack of respect for community decision making. Graywalls (talk) 17:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC)- Well, your concept of what was a false consensus has been dismissed by the RfC result, so you should move on from this bitterness and distortion of truth. In reply to Aoidh and Philknight at the Breyers talk page, I stated in my next comment, "Yes, a key word unintentionally omitted in my response concerning statements and sources was "verifiable". As there are few watchers/editors of the Breyers article (62 as of today, probably many from Unilever who do not edit), I provided statements of facts verified by reliable sources, whereas this simple practice appears to not be in your editing toolkit.
- The obligation remaining with you in this discussion is to respond to Cullen's 2-paragraph summary of your behavior below in the section, The actual content that led to this dispute. Let's have your response to that, and your pledge to abstain from editing the Breyers article - you did say on the talk page on 29 Nov that you would "delegate the actual editing to someone else." I think your defiance to respond to challenges in this discussion section affirms my recommendation that you are ABANNED from the Breyers article and IBANNED from attacking me because you are unable to face the facts. Zefr (talk) 18:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- It was a no commitment suggestion that someone, meaning neither YOU or I. Not that Zefr continue editing and not I. Your controlling, WP:OWN approach was a significant portion of the problem. Additionally, you proposed administrative sanctions against me, but did not tell me about it as required. I only figured out after someone told me about it on my talk page. Why did you do that? Graywalls (talk) 19:36, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- You had already been notified of the problem you caused at the Breyers article in this talk edit on 5 Jan. Now, you are engaged in conspicuous deflection to avoid answering the Cullen328 paragraphs and the several requests for you to explain and own up to your disruptive behavior and non-collaboration. Regarding OWN, there are few editors at Breyers. I countered your attempts to slander the article with the "antifreeze" term and bogus diet book references by applying verifiable facts and sources.
- OWN:"Being the primary or sole editor of an article does not constitute ownership, provided that contributions and input from fellow editors are not ignored or immediately disregarded. Editors familiar with the topic and in possession of relevant reliable sources may have watchlisted such articles and may discuss or amend others' edits. This too does not equal ownership, provided it does not marginalise the valid opinions of others and is adequately justified." If you had offered valid content and sources, I would have collaborated.
- I'm sure editors have seen enough of your personal grievances expressed here. Please stop. I'm not returning unless an exception occurs. Zefr (talk) 20:41, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- It was a no commitment suggestion that someone, meaning neither YOU or I. Not that Zefr continue editing and not I. Your controlling, WP:OWN approach was a significant portion of the problem. Additionally, you proposed administrative sanctions against me, but did not tell me about it as required. I only figured out after someone told me about it on my talk page. Why did you do that? Graywalls (talk) 19:36, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- You need to notify Graywalls of this discussion. I have done so for you. In the future, remember to do so yourself. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose: I have reverted Zefr on 3 occasions on the Breyers article over the last few months. That was because the edits they had made were, at that time, contrary to talk page consensus. The fact that I had not contributed to the article is neither here nor there in that regard.
- I have not
ignored requests on the talk page to collaborate
, I have simply objected to Zefr's repeated attempts over a 3 month period to re-open a discussion where the consensus has always been against them. - Six different users have previously objected to the changes Zefr has been trying to make and that was clearly a majority of those who commented between August and December 2024.
- I accept that the current RfC is going Zefr's way, however that fact should not be used to reinterpret events over the last 4 months where Zefr has historically been in a small minority insufficient to claim a consensus in favour of the changes they wished to make.
- Also, the idea that I made a
hostile attempt to revert a legitimate RfC
is untrue. As I have pointed out above, my actions were in good faith and it can be seen that I immediately volunteered to revert my removal of the template if I received instruction from an admin to that effect. - I cannot see that I was ever canvassed to appear at the Breyers talk page, I arrived there entirely independently back in November having been aware of the ongoing situation re: the various COI edit requests because the COI edit request queue is the volunteer queue that I spend most of my time here working from. I've probably read pretty much every COI edit request that has been made on Misplaced Pages over the last 6 to 12 months and there are a small number of talk pages that I look at from time to time.
- Graywalls and I work on similar cases and sometimes we find ourselves working alongside each other, especially if material has been discussed at WP:COIN, but occasionally ending up in the same place and on the same side of an argument does not entail tagteaming. Axad12 (talk) 22:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Comment I was the one who suggested RfC in the first place. here, because I felt it was not a productive disagreement anymore. Leading up to the RfC, there was rough talk page consensus to include a mention pf propylene glycol, but if consensus in RfC determines that it should be left out, I have no intention of fighting it. Someone raised a concern there was only one source, so I added another source. Other than this, I've not really touched contentious parts of this article recently. I'm not sure why Axad12 removed the RfC and I can't speak for their actions, but the accusation of Tagteam is unwarranted. I've taken deferent steps to not continue to engage in back and forth edit warring and I'd like to believe that I'm approaching this the correct way. I do want to bring up concerns about Zefr's civility though. Please see User_talk:DMacks#Breyers_disruptive_editing for some concerns I raised. I also find leaving snarky comment about being a PhD student who disagreed on contents troubling Special:Diff/1261441062. @Aoidh: also felt Zefr was "weaponing" claims of edit warring to restore their "preferred version" earlier on in the dispute. Please see Special:Diff/1257252695 Graywalls (talk) 02:34, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Graywalls, I think you were correct to recommend an RFC. Hopefully the RFC will reach a consensus. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd just like to echo that sentiment. I'm all in favour of consensus.
- My position on this article hasn't been motivated by a partisan view on Propylene Glycol but has simply been in relation to serving the consensus position as it stood at the time. That is the approach I hope I adopt on all Misplaced Pages articles. If the consensus alters on this article (as seems likely) then I'll adopt the same approach in relation to serving the new consensus.
- My primary area of interest on this website is COI issues. I'm simply not interested in content disputes or in pushing any kind of POV on Misplaced Pages. I'm not the sort of user who flagrantly disregards a newly emerging consensus by editing contrary to the outcome of an RfC.
- I'd welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that going forwards (i.e. without an article ban). Axad12 (talk) 06:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- The mention by Graywalls for an RfC on 27 Dec had no influence on the one existing. As an uncomplicated process, an editor truly sincere in having community input would have posed a simple objective question. Graywalls, why didn't you take 5 minutes and create the RfC question you wanted? What would have been your RfC question?
- Specifically for propylene glycol (you are still defending its use in the article by adding another garbage source yesterday - see comments about this book in the RfC):
what do you believe propylene glycol does in a frozen dessert and what would you prefer the article to say about propylene glycol? I have asked for this clarification on the talk page many times and in the DRN, but you ignored the opportunity to collaborate and clarify.
- Have you read the sources in this talk page topic?
- Your reverts in article history and combative talk page behavior over months revealed a persistent intent to disparage the Breyers article, focus on the "antifreeze" slur (mainly promoting this source), and restore a skeletal version having no sources more recent than 2018 here, after tag-teaming with Axad12 to do your bidding on 17 Nov. That version also has misinformation under the section 'Ice cream', falsely stating that Breyers changed their ice cream ingredients by using other additives, which in fact, were used to evolve a new category of frozen desserts not intended to be ice cream. I believe you know this, but you and Axad12 persisted to favor misinformation for the article.
- The RfC I provided came from steps in the lead of WP:RFC: 1) generally poor talk page progress, where one editor seeking facts verified by current sources was opposed by Graywalls, Adax12, and NutmegCoffeeTea, all defending a version including "antifreeze"; 2) an RSN post here where Graywalls argued that a web link by the Seattle PI made the Motley Fool article an RS; 3) initiate DRN for which Graywalls, Axad12, and NutmegCoffeeTea abstained from collaboration to improve the article; 4) providing a science- and law-based talk page topic on 19 Dec, which appears to be willfully ignored by Axad12 and Graywalls, who responded only with hostility and defiance against the facts; 5) seeking third opinions from admins, first by BD2412 (talk page on 29-30 Nov) and by DMacks on 27 Dec, resulting in verbose trolling by these two users. Axad12's response on 27 Dec was to revert constructive edits and tag-team with Graywalls.
- Axad12 and Graywalls should be ABANNED from the Breyers article for exhibiting 1) hostility on the talk page to good faith proposals for making the article better, and 2) persistence to perpetuate misinformation on propylene glycol. Simply, what history shows that either editor has tried to improve the Breyers article? Both users meet most of the definitions of WP:NOTHERE for the article, its talk page, and the RfC. Zefr (talk) 18:17, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Zefr, I've already indicated on several occasions that I welcome and support the developing new consensus. Graywalls has made a similar comment below. That being the case, I don't really see what purpose an article ban would be intended to serve.
- Admittedly there has been some quite heated disagreement over recent months, but it seems that we all now have the robust talkpage consensus that we were hoping for in one way or another and that all three of us are happy to move forward in support of that consensus.
- You were clearly in the minority for quite a long time and I can appreciate that you found that experience frustrating. However, to continue to make allegations above of bad faith, trolling, tagteaming, etc. about those who constituted the valid majority for several months is just an attempt to perpetuate strife on an issue which is now, as far as I can see, satisfactorily resolved. Axad12 (talk) 19:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Graywalls, I think you were correct to recommend an RFC. Hopefully the RFC will reach a consensus. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Filed under: sometimes you hurt articles by treating COI editors as the enemy. The problem here is two users who should really know better edit-warring over the course of months to reinstate TikTok diet influencer silliness into a Misplaced Pages article, repeatedly reinstating WP:PROFRINGE content (implicitly, if not explicitly). We currently treat a little "avoid antifreeze" bubble in a diet book (which includes Breyers in a list of brands) and a book published by one of RFK Jr's antivax publishers as WP:DUE for including the insinuation that an FDA-approved and much-conspiratorialized additive is harmful. They've been repeatedly removed, but two editors keep putting them back, whether because of a misunderstanding of WP:MEDRS/WP:FRINGE or in pursuit of COI purification. — Rhododendrites \\ 13:24, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I take your point but I think you're misjudging the situation somewhat. Prior to the opening of the current RfC it was approximately 6 or 7 users in favour of inclusion vs 3 or 4 favouring exclusion. I only reverted the attempts at exclusion because those attempts were contrary to the talk page consensus.
- I'm perfectly open to the suggestion that that consensus position was wrong but the simple fact of the matter was that there was at that time no consensus in favour of exclusion.
- It has only been in the last couple of days that the requesting editor has been able to demonstrate a consensus in favour of exclusion. And that's great, I have no problem with that at all. In fact I welcome it.
- My understanding is that editors wishing to make changes to article text should not do so if there is a consensus against what they are trying to do, and that under such circumstances an edit can be (indeed should be) reverted. If I'm mistaken on that score then I'm perfectly happy to take instruction. However, I really want to stress that my actions were based primarily upon that reasoning and were made in good faith. Axad12 (talk) 14:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Axad12, you should not revert something because other editors want it to be reverted. You should only make content changes that you personally support. This is necessary for BRD to work. See WP:BRDREVERT for an explanation of why. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:25, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rhododendrites:, the antifreeze matter is WP:DEADHORSE since I believe everyone's pretty much agreed it doesn't need to be in there. Zefr has taken issues with me, Axad12, NutMegCoffee and possibly some others. They've tried to get the article "set in place" to their preferred version, but that was declined admin Daniel Case who determined it to be content dispute Special:Diff/1260192461. Zefr inferring alleging I was
"uncooperative"not collaborating/cooperating in the way that he was hoping in DR, but I don't believe that to be so. There was nothing intentional on my part to not cooperate. I'll see if @Robert McClenon: would like to share their observation on that since they closed the dispute. - https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Breyers/Archive_2#c-Rusalkii-20240814014600-Inkian_Jason-20240801145900 here's another uninvolved editoring erring on the side of inclusion. A one sentence mention of propylene glycol isn't something that is out of line and as others have mentioned, it falls under contents dispute and thus the choice to leave in/out rests on consensus. Reading through the current plus the archived discussions, up until the RfC, the general consensus is in support of having PG mention and Zefr's preferred version shouldn't trump consensus. As I mentioned, if consensus changes with the RfC, I'm not opposed to going with that. Graywalls (talk) 17:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC) (adjusted Graywalls (talk) 13:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC))
- For the record, I never stated the word "uncooperative" at DRN or the Breyers talk page, but rather "non-collaborative", as discussed in the thread with Robert McClenon below.
- "Set in place to their preferred version" and "Zefr's preferred version shouldn't trump consensus" should be translated to using "facts verified by reliable sources", which is the simple goal for the Breyers article that Graywalls has obstructed over months.
- It's incredible that Graywalls says even today above, knowing the comments on the RfC and months of being presented with facts and sources about why propylene glycol is safely used in thousands of manufactured foods: "A one sentence mention of propylene glycol isn't something that is out of line and as others have mentioned, it falls under contents dispute and thus the choice to leave in/out rests on consensus."
- Here's your chance to tell everyone:
- Why do you feel propylene glycol was used in Breyers frozen desserts (in 2013, not since)? What concern do you have about it, and what government or scientific source says it's unsafe in the amounts regulated by federal laws? Give a sentence here that you think meets consensus and uses a reliable source. Zefr (talk) 01:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You're right, you did not use that specific word. I've corrected my response due to wording. Graywalls (talk) 13:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
A Non-Mediator's Statement
I am not entirely sure why User:Graywalls has pinged me about this dispute, saying that I "closed this dispute". The accuracy of the statement that I "closed this dispute" depends on what is meant by "this dispute".
I closed the DRN thread, Misplaced Pages:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_252#Breyers, on 12 December. I obviously didn't resolve a dispute that has been continuing for another three weeks, and the claim that I closed the dispute looks to me like an attempt to confuse the jury. User:Zefr had opened the DRN thread on 3 December, complaining about the insertion of the word antifreeze and of the mention of propylene glycol. I was not entirely sure beyond the mention of antifreeze what the issues were. There were questions about what the procedure was for handling a one-against-many dispute; I think that Zefr was said to be the one. There was a long question that may have been about whether DRN is voluntary; DRN is voluntary. Then Zefr said that the case could be withdrawn because no one else was commenting. The disputants other than Zefr never did say exactly what the article content issues were, perhaps because they didn't want to discuss article content, and were not required to discuss article content. If anyone is implying that I resolved or settled anything, I have no idea what it was.
I see that the dispute either was continuing in other forums for three weeks, or has reopened. I see that User:Axad12 edit-warred to prevent an RFC from running, making vague but noisy statements about conflict of interest. I don't know who is said to be working for Unilever or for anyone else. It is clear that this dispute is longer on antagonism than on clarity. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Robert McClenon:, I pinged you, because I felt you'd be a good commentator to evaluate whether you also felt I was "not cooperative" in the process as Zefr says. I tried to participate, but it got closed shortly after I posted a comment in it. Graywalls (talk) 22:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Was that purposely mis-stated to be provocative and mislead the discussion here?
- I said you were non-collaborative, which describes your behavior throughout your editing history on the Breyers article, its talk page, and the DRN. You refused collaboration at DRN, which is the whole point of the process. DRN FAQ: "refusing participation can be perceived as a refusal to collaborate, and is not conducive to consensus-building."
- You were notified about the DRN on your talk page on 3 Dec, and you posted a general notice about it on the Breyers talk page on 6 Dec, so you were aware of the process, but ignored it. Meanwhile, your editing history over 6-12 Dec shows dozens of edits, including many on the Breyers talk page.
- You made no attempt to collaborate at DRN, posting only one off-topic comment on 12 Dec.
- I requested closure of the DRN on 12 Dec due to non-participation by you and the others. On 13 Dec, I notified the Breyers talk page of the DRN closure. cc: Robert McClenon. Zefr (talk) 00:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Zefr:, As been said to you by others, participation is not mandatory. Other editors are not required to and you shouldn't reasonably expect them to prioritize their real life schedule or their Misplaced Pages time on dispute that you runs on your own schedule to your DRN you started around your own schedule on your own terms. I have initially waited to give others time to comment as their time allows. I'm also not particularly fond of your berating, incivil, bad faith assuming comments directed at myself, as well as a few other editors and it's exhausting discussing with you, so I'm not feeling particularly compelled to give your matters priority in my Misplaced Pages time. Graywalls (talk) 06:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
A Possibly Requested Detail
Okay. If the question is specifically whether User:Graywalls was uncooperative at DRN, then I can state that they were not uncooperative and did not obstruct or disrupt DRN. Graywalls took very little part in the DRN proceeding before I closed it. They were not required to take part, although they say that they would have made a statement if the case had stayed open a little longer. The antagonism that I saw was between User:Zefr and User:Axad12, and I collapsed an exchange between them. I did not read what I am told were long previous discussions, because I expect the disputants at DRN to begin by telling me concisely what each of them wants to change in the article (or what they want to leave the same that another editor wants to change). Graywalls was not uncooperative at DRN. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay. User:Zefr is making a slightly different statement, that User:Graywalls did not collaborate at DRN. That is correct. And I noted above that their mention that I had closed the dispute depended on what was meant by the "dispute". and looked like an attempt to confuse the jury. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Robert McClenon Zefr did not use the word uncooperative although did say uncollaborative and I used the two interchangeably in my ping. I did participate in it Special:Diff/1262763079. I haven't participated in DRN until that point, so I wasn't really sure how it worked. Graywalls (talk) 13:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
The actual content that led to this dispute
Two month ago, Breyers included this shockingly bad content: As of 2014, some flavors of Breyer's ice cream contains propylene glycol as an additive. Propylene glycol is a chemical commonly used in a car antifreeze and it is clear fluid made by "treating propylene with chlorinated water to form the chlorohydrin, which is then converted to the glycol, an alcohol, by treating it with a sodium carbonate solution." Propylene glycol is formulated into Breyer's fat-free and Carb Smart ice cream to make it easier to scoop.
The notion that an article about an ice cream company should include a detailed description of how a Generally recognized as safe food additive is manufactured is bizarre enough, as is the cherrypicked and glaringly misleading assertion about "antifreeze", but the reference used to support the Breyers claim was a book called Eat It to Beat It!: Banish Belly Fat-and Take Back Your Health-While Eating the Brand-Name Foods You Love! written by a quack/crank diet profiteer named David Zinczenko. I invite any editor to take a search engine look at Zinczenko's body of work, and come away with the conclusion that his writings are anything other than fringe and unreliable. Despite the glaringly obviously non-neutral and tendentious problems with this shockingly bad content, editors including most prominently Graywalls and Axad12 dug in their heels, fighting a reargard action for nearly two months, determined to make this mundane routine ice cream company look as bad as possible. Their self-justification seems to be that big bad corporations have no right whatsover to try to remove atrociously bad content about their products from Misplaced Pages, and that any editor who tries to assist the evil corporation is also evil by association. I am not an advocate for corporations per se, but I am an advocate for corporations being treated neutrally like all other topics, rather with disdain and contempt, which was the case here, as I see it. I do not know what the best outcome is here, but I certainly encourage these two editors to refrain from any other unjustified and poorly referenced anti-corporate diatribes that go on for months on end. Cullen328 (talk) 07:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- A striking and shocking aspect of this sordid situation is that two editors, Graywalls and Axad12 were able to concoct a false "consensus" supporting various versions of this garbage content. And then when another editor tried to start a RFC about the appallingly bad content, Axad12 tried over and over and over again to stop the RFC and defend the atrocious content rather than correcting it, aided and abetted by Graywalls. When the RFC actually went live, it soon became clear that many editors agreed that the content these two editors advocated for was utterly inappropriate. Cullen328 (talk) 08:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Cullen,
- As per my comments above, my motivation was simply in reflecting the consensus on the talk page at the time. I did not
concoct
that consensus, at least 5 users other than me were against excluding the material. - I have never had any particularly strong opinion one way or the other on the content issue and I try as best as I can not to get involved in content disputes. I have not
dug in heels
or attempted to promote any kind of fringe opinion and nor have I engaged inanti-corporate diatribes that go on for months on end
. - Similarly I do not hold the view that
any editor who tries to assist the evil corporation is also evil by association
, or any opinion even vaguely resembling that view. On the contrary, I have often implemented COI edit requests on behalf of corporations or have pointed out to corporate employees how such requests would need to be amended to conform with sourcing or other requirements. Repeatedly engaging in that activity would presumably make me veryevil
indeed, in my own eyes, if I held the view that you attribute to me. - I reverted the Breyer edits in good faith because there was no consensus in favour of them. If I was incorrect on a point of policy in that regard then fair enough, however please do not attempt to attribute to me sentiments which I do not harbour.
- Also, I did not attempt to stop the RfC
over and over and over again
. I removed the tag twice, then requested guidance from administrators and immediately replaced the tag when requested to do so. The tag was removed, in all, for a matter of minutes and had no meaningful impact on the progress of the RfC. I have accepted elsewhere that I now appreciate that the basis on which I removed the tag was inappropriate. I have also stated thatFrom my standpoint wasn't a process that I was familiar with - but I can see from the many excellent contributions here that this is the best way of resolving content disputes
. I have also stated that I welcome and support the new consensus. Axad12 (talk) 08:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- Try as you will to justify your participation in this debacle , Axad12, but any uninvolved editor can review the edit histories and see that you fought very hard, over and over again for months, to keep garbage content in the encyclopedia just to stick it to a corporation that you obviously dislike because they tried to correct egregious errors about their products. Cullen328 (talk) 08:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Can you provide a diff there to indicate that I
obviously dislike
Breyers or (their parent company) Unilever, or indeed that I consider either to beevil
? - To the best of my recollection, I've only ever made 3 mainspace edits to the Breyers article - each time on the stated basis in the edit summary that the edit I was reverting was contrary to consensus.
- I've re-read the extensive talk page discussions in recent days and I can only see that I ever commented on the COI angle and the nature of the consensus. Those comments were based on my understanding of policy at the time. I do not see
anti-corporate diatribes
or evidence that Iobviously dislike
Breyers or Unilever. - Indeed, I do not hold any particularly strong views on Breyers, Unilever or any other corporations. Axad12 (talk) 09:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- As I said, Axad12, all any uninvolved editor needs to do is review your 37 edits to Talk: Breyers to see how determined you have been over the last two months to maintain various versions of this biased non-neutral content, and how enthusiastic you have been in denouncing the various editors who have been calling for neutrality. Your consistent theme has been that a corporation does not deserve neutrality, because a bogus consensus has been conjured up. Cullen328 (talk) 09:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- My activity on that talk page has solely been in relation to pointing out what I felt (rightly or wrongly) was a valid COI concern and observing that from Aug to Dec there has never been a consensus in favour of exclusion.
- Anything beyond that is simply you attributing motives that do not exist.
- I have never stated or implied that
a corporation does not deserve neutrality
and nor do I hold such a view. - I happily admit that I'm quite animated and enthusiastic about COI issues and reverting edits which appear to be contrary to consensus. With the benefit of hindsight probably I should have let go of those issues at an earlier stage and vacated the field for those who actually had an appetite to argue on content grounds.
- I'd also point out that for a significant part of the last 2 months I had actually unsubscribed from the relevant talkpage threads and only ended up getting involved again due to being summoned to the Dispute Resolution thread. If I had been
determined over the last two months to maintain various versions of biased non-neutral content
then hopefully it stands to reason that I would not have unsubscribed in that way - thus resulting in a situation where I was actually completely unaware of much of the talkpage and mainspace activity over the period that you refer to. Axad12 (talk) 10:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- I find the defense of your actions very weak. You've said several times that your
motivation was simply in reflecting the consensus on the talk page at the time
. You are also obligated to actually look at the disputed content and the sources supporting it. Why didn't you do that? Why were you unable to see what multiple editors in the RfC are commenting about? You shouldn't just blindly revert content like that, without taking a look for yourself to see if the complaint about the disputed content has any merit, like it being reliably sourced and due for inclusion. Isaidnoway (talk) 10:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- That's a very fair question.
- The answer is that I was inclined to believe the opinions of editors much more experienced than myself who were against exclusion, particularly the editor who turned down the original COI edit request (whose work on COI edit requests I have the greatest of respect for).
- User Whatamidoing has already pointed out above that my error lay in accepting those users' opinions. I agree with Whatamidoing's observation there.
- I can only say that what I did was done in good faith based on my understanding of policy at the time. I now know where I erred (in several different ways) and I am glad to have received instruction in that regard.
- However, I really cannot accept the repeated suggestion that I vindictively masterminded a long anti-corporate campaign to keep bad material in an article. That suggestion is fundamentally not true. Axad12 (talk) 10:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Policy at the time, and the policy now, as it always has been, when you make an edit, you are responsible for that edit. So by reverting the content back into the article, you were then responsible for that edit, and also partly to blame for this garbage content being kept in the article when it clearly shouldn't have been. Isaidnoway (talk) 11:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, I entirely accept that.
- For clarity, when I said
my understanding of policy at the time
I meant my understanding of policy at the time - I wasn't trying to suggest that the policy has changed since I made those edits. - What I am saying is that those edits were not made with malice, they were made because I accepted the opinions of other users more experienced than myself, opinions which I now know that I ought to have questioned. Axad12 (talk) 11:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You demonstrated poor judgement. Will you stay away from that article? — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 11:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- As I said earlier in this thread, I am 100% supportive of the new consensus in favour of excluding the previously disputed material.
- Virtually all of my time on Misplaced Pages is spent at COIN and dealing with COI edit requests. I'm not the sort of user who spends their time edit warring over POV fringe material and generally being disruptive.
- So, the last thing I would ever do is attempt to reinstall material where a very robust consensus at RfC has indicated that it should be excluded.
- I would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that I can be trusted in that regard. Axad12 (talk) 12:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Judgement isn't about following consensus, it’s about making considered decisions. — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 14:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, quite so. I have acknowledged my error in that regard in my first response to Isaidnoway, above, re: the very useful input I received from Whatamidoing. Axad12 (talk) 17:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Axad, if I read what you wrote correctly, and please correct me if I misunderstand: I will stay away from that article because I support the current consensus. My concern is what if consensus was to shift on that article? TiggerJay (talk) 17:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Apologies if my earlier response was unclear. My point was that I have absolutely no intention of edit warring over the previously disputed material (or any other material) so I don't see what purpose it would serve to ban me from the article.
- I have only ever made (to the best of my knowledge) 3 previous edits to the article (1 in November and 2 in December?). These were all on the basis of a misunderstanding on a point of policy which has been pointed out to me above and which I have happily acknowledged and accepted. The issue at stake was not that I harbour any partisan view in relation to the content dispute, it was that I edited to reflect the views of other editors whose opinions I respected on the matter in question.
- I do not see any reason for the community to anticipate that I would made a similar misunderstanding of policy going forwards.
- Hopefully this clarifies... Axad12 (talk) 17:39, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Judgement isn't about following consensus, it’s about making considered decisions. — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 14:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You demonstrated poor judgement. Will you stay away from that article? — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 11:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Policy at the time, and the policy now, as it always has been, when you make an edit, you are responsible for that edit. So by reverting the content back into the article, you were then responsible for that edit, and also partly to blame for this garbage content being kept in the article when it clearly shouldn't have been. Isaidnoway (talk) 11:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I find the defense of your actions very weak. You've said several times that your
- As I said, Axad12, all any uninvolved editor needs to do is review your 37 edits to Talk: Breyers to see how determined you have been over the last two months to maintain various versions of this biased non-neutral content, and how enthusiastic you have been in denouncing the various editors who have been calling for neutrality. Your consistent theme has been that a corporation does not deserve neutrality, because a bogus consensus has been conjured up. Cullen328 (talk) 09:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Can you provide a diff there to indicate that I
- Try as you will to justify your participation in this debacle , Axad12, but any uninvolved editor can review the edit histories and see that you fought very hard, over and over again for months, to keep garbage content in the encyclopedia just to stick it to a corporation that you obviously dislike because they tried to correct egregious errors about their products. Cullen328 (talk) 08:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've been expecting something to happen around User:Axad12, whom I ran into several months ago during a dispute at COIN. What I noticed back in October was that Axad12 seemed to be clerking the noticeboard, making prosecutorial noises, and sometimes unsupported accusations (ex:
...the existence of COI seems quite clear...
1,...in relation to your undeclared conflict of interest...
2,As I said, the fact that there was a significant undeclared conflict of interest in relation to editing on Paralympic Australia-related articles was demonstrated some years ago.
3) towards what they thought of as COI editors (this was about whether User:Hawkeye7 had failed to adequately announce their conflict with Paralympic Australia, where they've been openly helping as a volunteer on our community's behalf for many years, and after they had just made an almost invisible contribution on the Signpost). I often find such clerking of noticeboards by relatively unseasoned users to be troublesome; Axad12 has 490 edits at COIN, about 12% of their total 3801 edits (but about a third of the roughly 1500 edits total on COIN since September). If you use a hammer all day, you might begin to think that all objects are potentially nails. BusterD (talk) 12:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- Rereading the discussion this morning 90 days later, it reads worse than I made it sound above. An uninvolved admin tried to close the thread and chastised Axad12 in that close. The OP asked the thread closure be reversed, so the close comments were moved down to the end of the thread. BusterD (talk) 14:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it would be a good idea for Axad12 to take a break from WP:COIN and associated matters and concentrate on other areas of Misplaced Pages for a few months. I was going to use a cliché here, but I see BusterD's already used it in the last sentence of the post before last, so won't. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Only so many ways to screw in a lightbulb. BusterD (talk) 15:06, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- In fairness, the overwhelming majority of my posts at COIN over the last year or so have been simple helpful contributions. The two matters discussed above were atypical and in both cases I've taken on board the advice I was given.
- If (per the figures above) I've been making about a third of all the contributions at COIN over that period then my behaviour would have been reported here long ago if I was either disruptive or incompetent.
- That said, I won't deny that I've been seriously considering retiring from Misplaced Pages over the last two months. The only reason I've not done so is because other users have specifically encouraged me to carry on because they value my work at COIN and on COI issues generally.
- All I can say is that what I have done, I have done in good faith and when I have occasionally erred I have learned lessons. I have acknowledged above that I've made mistakes and I'm grateful to those who have given me advice. Axad12 (talk) 15:34, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You've been reported here now. Over stuff that's current, and applicable. In that matter, you seemed to believe your expertise in COI matters allows you to decide what constitutes a valid RFC. That seems like a problem to me. I'm providing evidence on related behavioral matters. Having made one third of all recent edits on a noticeboard is not the high achievement you might think it is. Stay or retire, but learn to better assume good faith here, even when dealing with COI contributors. Most accounts are fine. You've been working in a narrow area where you deal with many bad faith users. I can understand why that might wear on any editor. The proof will be if you can incorporate these valid complaints into your future action. BusterD (talk) 16:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Buster, I know that we've had crossed words in the past so I'm grateful for your understanding and your measured response above. Yes, I deal with many bad faith users and yes it does wear on me sometimes.
- I don't claim any great expertise in COI matters but I do have the time to dedicate to the project and I've picked up a decent awareness of the methods that can be used to detect and prevent UPE/PROMO etc activity.
- I believe that in the past when I've been given advice on points of policy I've taken that advice on board and would hope to continue to do so in the future. Axad12 (talk) 17:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- This comment is not about you, but you might be interested in it: I've been thinking for years that a rotating duty system might be helpful. Of course we're all WP:VOLUNTEERS, but we might be less stressed, and get more representative results, if we each spent a week at ANI and a month at RSN and a week at CCI each year than if one editor spends all year at ANI and another spends all year at RSN (and nobody is at CCI – anyone who is looking for an opportunity to deal with really serious problems should please consider spending some time at Misplaced Pages:Contributor copyright investigations. The few regulars there will be so grateful, and who knows? You might find that you like it). WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You've been reported here now. Over stuff that's current, and applicable. In that matter, you seemed to believe your expertise in COI matters allows you to decide what constitutes a valid RFC. That seems like a problem to me. I'm providing evidence on related behavioral matters. Having made one third of all recent edits on a noticeboard is not the high achievement you might think it is. Stay or retire, but learn to better assume good faith here, even when dealing with COI contributors. Most accounts are fine. You've been working in a narrow area where you deal with many bad faith users. I can understand why that might wear on any editor. The proof will be if you can incorporate these valid complaints into your future action. BusterD (talk) 16:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Only so many ways to screw in a lightbulb. BusterD (talk) 15:06, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it would be a good idea for Axad12 to take a break from WP:COIN and associated matters and concentrate on other areas of Misplaced Pages for a few months. I was going to use a cliché here, but I see BusterD's already used it in the last sentence of the post before last, so won't. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Rereading the discussion this morning 90 days later, it reads worse than I made it sound above. An uninvolved admin tried to close the thread and chastised Axad12 in that close. The OP asked the thread closure be reversed, so the close comments were moved down to the end of the thread. BusterD (talk) 14:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I do think that it's worth zooming out and looking at the article as a whole. Comparing the version from before the current rewrites started to the current version makes it obvious that the tone of the article has become vastly more promotional, with much more focus on glowy feel-good aspects that are only mentioned in lower-quality sources (the story about the original creator hand-churning it?) And the context of the additive section has changed from emphasizing that it was cost-cutting (well-supported in the sources) to the weird
In 2013, Breyers introduced frozen desserts made with food additives (section above) that were intended to create smooth, low-calorie products. However, the new desserts evoked complaints by some consumers who were accustomed to the traditional "all-natural" Breyers ice cream.
, which 100% reads like marketing-speak (downplaying the reaction by making it sound like it's just that people loved the old version so much. In fact, the current version doesn't mention Breyer's cost-cutting measures at all, even though it's a massive aspect of coverage.) That doesn't necessarily justify the version above, but it's important to remember that this was originally a one-word mention in a larger list -Following similar practices by several of their competitors, Breyers' list of ingredients has expanded to include thickeners, low-cost sweeteners, food coloring and low-cost additives — including natural additives such as tara gum and carob bean gum; artificial additives such as maltodextrin and propylene glycol; and common artificially separated and extracted ingredients such as corn syrup, whey, and others
, the longstanding wording, is not unreasonable and doesn't really imply that there's anything particularly dangerous about propylene glycol, just that it's an additive. I think the context of that larger shift to a much more promotional tone to the article is significant (and looking over talk, most of the actual dispute has focused on that.) --Aquillion (talk) 17:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- I agree that the longstanding wording doesn't really imply there's anything particularly dangerous about propylene glycol. But the source being used doesn't even mention "maltodextrin and propylene glycol", that I can find, so those two particular additives were not even verifiable at the time. And then propylene glycol was removed, and when it was added back here as "a chemical commonly used in a car antifreeze", was really when this dispute seem to take a turn for the worse to keep this content in the article. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Aquillion, about this And the context of the additive section has changed from emphasizing that it was cost-cutting (well-supported in the sources) – I don't know what other sources say, but the cited sources don't say that at all. The cited sources are both from Canadian dairy farmers' marketing associations, saying that their product is good and costs more than imported oils, but doesn't actually WP:Directly support a claim that Breyers uses imported oils, or that Breyers has done anything to cut their costs. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- (As this is strictly a question of content, please consider replying at Talk:Breyers instead of here.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Aquillion, WhatamIdoing, and Isaidnoway: would you all mind if I copy over the thread, starting at Aquillion's "I do think that...." over to Breyer's talk? Graywalls (talk) 02:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't mind, but my contribution to this thread is relatively minor. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Aquillion, WhatamIdoing, and Isaidnoway: would you all mind if I copy over the thread, starting at Aquillion's "I do think that...." over to Breyer's talk? Graywalls (talk) 02:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- (As this is strictly a question of content, please consider replying at Talk:Breyers instead of here.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Aquillion, about this And the context of the additive section has changed from emphasizing that it was cost-cutting (well-supported in the sources) – I don't know what other sources say, but the cited sources don't say that at all. The cited sources are both from Canadian dairy farmers' marketing associations, saying that their product is good and costs more than imported oils, but doesn't actually WP:Directly support a claim that Breyers uses imported oils, or that Breyers has done anything to cut their costs. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree that the longstanding wording doesn't really imply there's anything particularly dangerous about propylene glycol. But the source being used doesn't even mention "maltodextrin and propylene glycol", that I can find, so those two particular additives were not even verifiable at the time. And then propylene glycol was removed, and when it was added back here as "a chemical commonly used in a car antifreeze", was really when this dispute seem to take a turn for the worse to keep this content in the article. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
Thanks, and a Diddly Question
I would like to thank User:Cullen328 for providing the background and content information. I also have a possibly minor question for User:Axad12. They edit-warred to try to stop the RFC on the content, and said that there was an exceptionally serious abuse
of the conflict of interest process. I may not have done enough background research, but I don't see where they have identified who has been the paid editor or undisclosed paid editor, or what the conflict of interest content is. If there has been paid editing, who has done it, and have they been dealt with? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Robert, probably the best single overview of the COI issue is given in this post .
- My impression at the time of the events, and subsequently, was that the activity was designed to distort the COI edit request process. I still feel that what happened re: the COI edit requests was irregular but I note that no other user seems to have supported me in that regard so I've not taken the matter any further. Similarly, while I felt that those events had a bearing on the RfC I now accept that the RfC relates solely to the content matter specifically under discussion. Axad12 (talk) 18:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I find your characterization of events inaccurate. You stated "we have the resubmission of the request to remove the disputed material in a COI edit request thread here "
- But this was not a resubmission. The original COI request was to remove a list of ingredients (including propylene glycol) which was sourced to a blog and which the COI editor says is outdated and doesn't reflect current ingredients. Meanwhile, the link you give as an example of "resubmission" was the COI editor requesting the removal of "the recent content addition related to propylene glycol". Both requests involve propylene glycol, but they are clearly separate requests concerning separate content.
- We want COI editors to propose changes to talk pages. The fact that this COI editor, apparently frustrated by a lack of responses to their requests went to the Food and Drink Wikiproject to request someone look at their edits, and then went to an active participant of said Wikiproject and requested they look at their requests, is not suspicious or abnormal. And I think it's highly inappropriate how Axad12 argued at length on the talk page that User:Zefr was "cultivated" by the COI editor "to do their bidding". I support other editors in recommending Axad12 take a break from COI issues. Photos of Japan (talk) 00:12, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd just like to stress here that I only linked to my post above because Robert McClenon asked for the background to the COI element. I was not trying to re-open that issue or to request that any action be taken on that issue. I have already accepted that there is absolutely no support for the position I adopted there. Axad12 (talk) 04:00, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- This doesn't answer my question. The link is to a conversation between User:Axad12, User:Graywalls, and administrator User:DMacks. The links from that conversation show that there is antagonism between Axad12 and Graywalls on the one hand and User:Zefr on the other hand. They show that there is discussion of conflict of interest, but they show no direct evidence of conflict of interest editing by any editor. They don't answer who is said to be a paid editor making edit requests, aside from the fact that paid editors are supposed to make edit requests rather than editing directly, so I am still not sure what the issue is. I haven't seen any evidence of abuse, let alone of
exceptionally serious abuse
that warranted edit-warring to prevent an RFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC)- The paid editor is User:Inkian Jason who is open and transparent about their COI. The edit request which began this episode was when Inkian Jason began this discussion where they pinged User:Zefr about having uploaded a photo of the company's logo and asking if they would be willing to add it to the article. Secondary to that they also asked about the appropriateness of the recently added propylene glycol content. The COI issues centered around whether Inkian Jason "cultivated" Zefr by pinging him to remove the added propylene glycol text after they had previously requested the deletion of a sentence about the various ingredients used in the ice cream (which included propylene glycol). Photos of Japan (talk) 05:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Proposal 2: Article Ban of Axad12 from Breyers
NOT IMPLEMENTED Axax12 has voluntarily agreed to avoid editing Breyers. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:20, 11 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
(Proposal 1 has been lost up in the early postings.) I propose that User:Axad12 be article-banned from Breyers and Talk:Breyers for six months. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support as proposer. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Robert, I believe I have acknowledged and accepted my various errors in some detail above. I would be grateful for the opportunity to take on board and apply the very valuable input I have received from various more experienced users over the course of this thread. I'd therefore suggest a counter-proposal, that I will voluntary undertake not to edit the Breyers article or make any contribution at the talk page, not just for the next 6 months but forever. I will also refrain from any interaction with Zefr and refrain from making any future comment on the matters under discussion in this thread (once this thread is complete). In addition, if I go back on any of those voluntary undertakings I would be happy for it to be upon pain of an indefinite site ban. Axad12 (talk) 04:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Axad12, I wonder what your intent is with your counterproposal. Robert McClenon has proposed an article ban for 6 months. Your counterproposal is, in effect, an indefinite article ban, an I-ban with Zefr, and a topic ban on the topic of propylene glycol in Byers, all without the usual escalating blocks for violations, instead jumping straight to an indef. While this would solve the issue, it's much more draconian. What's your reasoning for requesting harsher restrictions? EducatedRedneck (talk) 04:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- The purpose of the counter proposal was simply to indicate that I have only good intentions going forwards and I am happy to demonstrate those intentions upon pain of the strongest possible sanction. Evidently I wouldn't have made the counter proposal if I wasn't serious about the undertaking, as I'm aware that eyes will understandably be upon me going forwards.
- As I've said before, I'm a good faith user and I'm amenable to taking instruction when I have erred. I would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that without being subject to a formal ban. Axad12 (talk) 05:02, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I fail to see a distinction between what you proposed and a formal ban. Your proposal is on
pain of an indefinite site ban
. "A rose by any other name" comes to mind here. Your voluntary adherence to the terms of the proposal would be indistinguishable from being compelled into adherence by threat of an indef. If you still want this course of action, fair enough, I just don't think it'll do what you're envisioning. EducatedRedneck (talk) 05:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I fail to see a distinction between what you proposed and a formal ban. Your proposal is on
- I really don't recommend that, Axad. Sure, take a break from that article if you want to. But it's really easy to forget about a dispute years later, or even for a company to change names and suddenly you're on that article without knowing it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:53, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- For clarification, I would be happy to undertake voluntarily any measures that the community may suggest and upon pain of any sanction that the community may suggest. I believe that there is value to undertaking such measures voluntarily because it allows one to demonstrate that one can be trusted.
- Also just a brief note to say that in about an hour and a quarter's time I will have no internet access for the next 12-14 hours. Any lack of response during that period will simply be for that reason and not due to a wilful refusal to communicate. Hopefully I have indicated above that I have been happy to respond to all questions.
- No doubt matters will progress in my absence and I will find out my fate upon my return. Axad12 (talk) 05:18, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Axad12, I wonder what your intent is with your counterproposal. Robert McClenon has proposed an article ban for 6 months. Your counterproposal is, in effect, an indefinite article ban, an I-ban with Zefr, and a topic ban on the topic of propylene glycol in Byers, all without the usual escalating blocks for violations, instead jumping straight to an indef. While this would solve the issue, it's much more draconian. What's your reasoning for requesting harsher restrictions? EducatedRedneck (talk) 04:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Robert, I believe I have acknowledged and accepted my various errors in some detail above. I would be grateful for the opportunity to take on board and apply the very valuable input I have received from various more experienced users over the course of this thread. I'd therefore suggest a counter-proposal, that I will voluntary undertake not to edit the Breyers article or make any contribution at the talk page, not just for the next 6 months but forever. I will also refrain from any interaction with Zefr and refrain from making any future comment on the matters under discussion in this thread (once this thread is complete). In addition, if I go back on any of those voluntary undertakings I would be happy for it to be upon pain of an indefinite site ban. Axad12 (talk) 04:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support as less stringent than what Axad has proposed above within this section, but still prevents further disruption. EducatedRedneck (talk) 06:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose because Axad12 seems to have taken on board the criticism (much of which came from me) and we don't need to be vindictive. Cullen328 (talk) 08:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose. This episode has largely been a series of poor judgements by Axad12 perhaps coloured by their enthusiasm for COI matters but feedback has been given and acknowledged. I also oppose Axad12's counter proposal. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 10:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose Given Cullen328's comment. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:25, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose per above. I just don't see a need for such strict measures. Photos of Japan (talk) 16:22, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose the formal sanction, but I do support Axad12s voluntary sanction =
I will voluntary undertake not to edit the Breyers article or make any contribution at the talk page, not just for the next 6 months but forever. I will also refrain from any interaction with Zefr ... I wouldn't have made the counter proposal if I wasn't serious about the undertaking
. Isaidnoway (talk) 22:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
Proposal 3: Article Ban of Axad12 from COIN
NOT IMPLEMENTED Axad12 seems to have agreed to step back from COIN, and there isn't consensus for this. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:19, 11 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Clerking at COIN seems to have given User:Axad12 the idea that everyone whom they don't know is probably a paid editor, and something has given them the idea that they can identify "exceptionally serious abuse" without providing direct evidence. I propose that User:Axad12 be article-banned from WP:COIN for two months. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support as proposer. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Robert, just a brief note to say that I do not believe that
everyone whom don't know is probably a paid editor
. The overwhelming majority of my contributions at COIN are simple constructive contributions and the matter described above is highly atypical. Axad12 (talk) 04:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Robert, just a brief note to say that I do not believe that
- Oppose because Axad12 seems to have taken on board the criticism (much of which came from me) and we don't need to be vindictive. Cullen328 (talk) 08:44, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose. This episode has largely been a series of poor judgements by Axad12 perhaps coloured by their enthusiasm for COI matters but feedback has been given and acknowledged. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 10:12, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose Given Cullen328's comment. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:25, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would prefer it if Axad12's voluntary commitment was to stay away from WP:COIN rather than the company article in particular. It is very unhealthy, both for Misplaced Pages and for the particular user, for anything like a third of the edits on any noticeboard to be from any one user. Phil Bridger (talk) 15:18, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support this is a good idea, and not vindictive. It will do Axad12 some good to get away from the COIN for awhile, and get out there and roam around Misplaced Pages and see where else they can contribute constructively. Isaidnoway (talk) 16:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think a formal ban is unnecessary. Axad has done a remarkably good job of articulating a positive response to this incident, and it's to his credit that he has reacted so constructively under such pressure.
- I also think it's good for everyone to try something different on occasion. I think it's easier to walk away for a bit if you're sure that others will step up to fill your place. So with such proposals (not just this one), I'd love to see people saying not only that they support giving someone a break, but also that they'll try to step up to help out in that page/process/noticeboard for the length of a ban. It could be as little as checking in once a week or answering the easy questions. Who is willing to actually be supportive in practice? WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- People will fill the space. WP:COIN managed before Axad12 showed up, and will manage if they stop editing there. Nobody is indispensible. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's only for two months, it's a good thing to get away and get a breath of fresh air, and yes, his response has been positive, but even he admits in the Breyer debacle, he was relying on other editor's opinions in evaluating the disputed content, so getting away from the COIN desk for a couple of months, and getting some experience in other areas of the encyclopedia will be beneficial, if and when, he returns to COIN. Isaidnoway (talk) 22:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don’t want to derail the voting process here, but a couple of points in relation to COIN…
- (Apologies for the length of this post but I feel the contents are relevant.)
- 1) It has been observed elsewhere that “COIN has no teeth” (forgive me for the absence of a diff but I think it's a commonly acknowledged idea). I've discussed that issue at some length with Star Mississippi and they've acknowledged that there is (in their opinion) insufficient admin oversight at COIN and that too many threads have historically gone unresolved without action being taken against promo-only accounts (etc).
- Star Mississippi has encouraged me to refer such cases to admins directly to ask them to intervene. I’ve been doing so over recent months and this has significantly improved positive resolutions on COIN threads.
- If I’m not active at COIN then that won’t be happening and very little action will be being taken against the promo only accounts reported there. Thus, while I acknowledge Whatamidoing’s earlier point about cross-training etc, and the points made by other users, there is an underlying unresolved issue re: admin oversight at COIN, which might also be resolved via some kind of rota or by a greater number of admins looking in from time to time.
- I’ve not consciously been clerking, and I certainly don’t aspire to be “the co-ordinator of COIN”, but there is something of a vacuum there. Consequently I’ve often posted along the lines of “Maybe refer this to RPPI?”, “Is there a notability issue here?”, etc. etc. in response to threads that have been opened.
- I absolutely accept 100% that, in terms of experience, I’m probably not the best person to be doing that – but I have the time to do it and I have the inclination, and in the absence of anybody else serving that role I’ve been happy to do it. But, as I say, really this is an underlying unresolved issue of others not having the time or inclination rather than an issue of me going out of my way to dominate. What I'd really like is if there were others sharing that task.
- 2) Also I'm not really sure that the extent to which I perform that sort of role has any real link to me making assumptions about whether COI users have good or bad faith motivations. On the latter distinction I think it's fair to say that I'm usually (but admittedly not always) correct. There have also been occasions when others have been asking for action to be taken and I've been the voice who said "no, I think this is a good faith user who just needs some guidance on policy". I hope that I'm normally speaking fair in that regard.
- Most of the accounts who are taken to COIN are recent accounts who wrongly believe that Misplaced Pages is an extension of their social media. Most accounts who fall into that category are advised along those lines and they comply with policy or, sometimes, they just go away. Then there are the repeat customers who are often clearly operating in bad faith and where firmer action needs to be taken. I'm conscious of that distinction, which seems to me to be the single most important point when dealing with COIN cases. I've not been adopting some kind of hardline one-size-fits-all approach or characterising all COI activity as bad per se. However, more admin oversight at COIN would certainly be appreciated, if only so that there were a wider range of voices.
- Thus, in an ideal world I think I would continue to be allowed to operate at COIN, but as one of several regular contributors.
- Apologies for the length of this post but hopefully this is a useful and relevant contribution. Please feel free to hat this post if it is considered wildly off-topic. Axad12 (talk) 03:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- This comment just reinforces my support position that a two-month break is a good idea. Isaidnoway (talk) 04:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Isaidnoway, all I can say is that if Misplaced Pages is looking for people with the time and motivation to dedicate to the project, and who are amenable to taking instruction, then here I am.
- If I’ve been felt to be overly keen to contribute in a particular area then fair enough. I’m just not sure that a formal ban is the way to go about resolving that. Axad12 (talk) 05:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Good grief, it's only two months, not a lifetime, I've taken breaks form the project longer than that, and guess what, the place didn't fall apart, and neither will COIN if you take a small break, formally or voluntarily. You claim -
If I’m not active at COIN then that won’t be happening and very little action will be being taken against the promo only accounts reported there.
I just don't believe that to be true, because as Phil Bridger points out - WP:COIN managed before Axad12 showed up, and will manage if they stop editing there. Nobody is indispensable. Isaidnoway (talk) 06:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC)- I really don't wish to argue, you've expressed your view and that's fine. However, the point of my long post above wasn't that "I am critical to COIN". The post was simply intended to highlight the fact that there are very few regular contributors at COIN and to express a hope that a wider range of contributors might get involved (following on from earlier related comments by Whatamidoing). That would be healthy all round, regardless of my situation.
- Also, when I've seen similar situations arise in the past, good faith (but over-active) users seem to usually be given the opportunity to voluntarily take steps to allay any community concerns, rather than being handed a formal ban. I'd just be grateful for a similar opportunity. Axad12 (talk) 06:43, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Good grief, it's only two months, not a lifetime, I've taken breaks form the project longer than that, and guess what, the place didn't fall apart, and neither will COIN if you take a small break, formally or voluntarily. You claim -
- Apologies for the delay. I cannot provide a diff either as I can't recall where we had the conversation but acknowledging that what @Axad12 attributed to me is correct. There are simple blocks that are sometimes needed, but there aren't as many eyes on COIN to action them. I believe I've found merit to any Axad reported directly to me and if there were any I didn't take action, it was due to bandwidth as my on wiki time has been somewhat limited over the last six months. As for the merit of this report, I am not able to read through it to assess the issue so it would not be fair of me to weigh in on any element thereof. Star Mississippi 14:48, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- This comment just reinforces my support position that a two-month break is a good idea. Isaidnoway (talk) 04:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Comment I have read through this long, entire discussion. I'd just like to point out to Axad12 that, to me, it's kind of like you are saying what you think we want to hear so it's hard to know how reflective this incident has caused you to be. I think it would be a mistake for you to think you only made mistakes regarding this one article and instead reconsider your approach to the entire COI area. Sometimes "the consensus" is not correct and can violate higher principles like NPOV and V.
- I'll just mention that the COI area has caused us to lose some invaluable editors, just superb and masterful editors who were on their way to becoming administrators. They devoted incredible amounts of time to this project. But their interest in rooting out COI and pursuing UPE caused them to completely lose perspective and think that they were a one-man/woman army and they took irresponsible shortcuts that led them to either leave the project voluntarily or be indefinitely blocked. It's like they fell down a rabbit hole where they began to think that the rules didn't apply to them because they had a "higher calling" of getting rid of COI. This lack of perspective caused us to lose some amazing editors, unfortunately, but ultimately they were damaging the project.
- You seem like an enthusiastic editor and I'd rather not see the same thing happen to you so I recommend you cut back on your time "clerking" COIN and just make this task one of a variety of areas you edit in instead of your primary activity. Liz 08:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Liz, thank you for your comments. I welcome your perspective and I'm not unaware of the dangers that you highlight.
- I think this is now day 5 of what has been a rather gruelling examination where I’ve co-operated to the very best of my ability. Most of the material under discussion has related to a series of regrettable misunderstandings where I’ve openly acknowledged my errors and would now like to move on.
- Therefore I’d be grateful if, following a period of reflection, I be given the latitude to continue my activities as I think best, taking on board all the very helpful advice that I’ve received from multiple users. At this moment in time I'm not sure exactly what that will look like going forwards, but it will involve a very significant (perhaps complete) reduction in my concentration on COI issues and much more time spent on improving articles in non-COI areas where I've previously contributed productively (e.g. detailed articles on specific chess openings).
- If I subsequently fall short of community expectations then by all means bring me back here with a view to imposing extreme sanctions. I do not think that that will end up being necessary.
- I have only the best of intentions but I must admit that I'm finding this prolonged process psychologically wearing. I therefore wondered if we might bring matters to a swift conclusion.
- I am genuinely very grateful for the thoughts of all who have contributed above.
- Kind regards, Axad12 (talk) 08:27, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hey, all: This thread's over 100 comments now. Can we please stop now? WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:59, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Seconding. Axad seems to have agreed to step back from COI-related editing for a while, all discussions are trending strongly towards no formal sanctions - could this be closed? Rusalkii (talk) 06:50, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hey, all: This thread's over 100 comments now. Can we please stop now? WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:59, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose. Sanctions are intended to be preventive, not punitive. At times Axad12 can get too aggressive, and removing the RfC template was one of that. Other issues were also raised but unless these issues continues, formal sanctions are unlikely necessary. Graywalls (talk) 17:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose I haven't gone through the entire saga on the Breyers page, but for a while I was active in COI edit requests at the same time Axad12 was, and noticed their conistently very combatitive/aggressive approach towards any editor with a declared or suspected COI. I mentioned this to them and they said they had already stepped back from answering COI edit requests because of this, which I though at the time (and still do) showed a genuinely impressive amount of self-awareness. I rather burned out on the edit requests and came back a few months later to see the queue vastly decreased thanks in part ot Axad12's efforts, but also what seemed to me like very little improvement, if any, to the way they approach COI editors. I would regret to see Axad12 banned from this topic area, but I would like to see them approach it with somewhat more kindness. I would (regretfully) support sanctions if this kind of behaviour continued, but there's no need to jump to that now. Rusalkii (talk) 03:33, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just a note to acknowledge the essential truth of Rusalkii's description above of my activities. There have, however, also been examples where I've shown considerable kindness and patience to COI editors and assisted them in re-formulating requests in a way that conforms with the relevant policies.
- I've always seen activities at WP:COIN and activities dealing with COI edit requests as two rather different things (with the former involving primarily undeclared COI, and the latter involving declared COI). With the benefit of hindsight I accept that my exposure to the former probably coloured my approach to the latter in an unhelpful way and that being heavily active in both spheres simultaneously was not a good idea.
- I would happily undertake never to deal with a COI edit request ever again and I have no particular desire to continue my activities at COIN either. The extent to which it was unhealthy to be operating in both areas is thus now effectively a moot point but I acknowledge that it was a factor in the matters under discussion here. Axad12 (talk) 05:54, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
MAB Teahouse talk
I didn't want to, but I one-hour protected the talk page of the Teahouse due to MAB going there. The Teahouse itself is already protected. Obviously they're going there precisely to make things as difficult on us as possible, but I don't know what else to do. 331dot (talk) 09:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Would it be possible to create a link (or button) that creates a new section on one's own talk page with {{Help me}} preloaded? We could then add this to the page's editnotice. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 09:53, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I protected Misplaced Pages talk:Help desk for an hour and found that there is a notice that pops up giving advice on how to get assistance on the user's talk page. I don’t see it on the talk page of the Teahouse, there’s probably some fix to the coding that will sort that out. — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 12:22, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- OK, I've fixed that. — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 12:35, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I protected Misplaced Pages talk:Help desk for an hour and found that there is a notice that pops up giving advice on how to get assistance on the user's talk page. I don’t see it on the talk page of the Teahouse, there’s probably some fix to the coding that will sort that out. — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 12:22, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
Looks like today they're hitting every help page they can find. 331dot (talk) 09:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- In relation to "MAB" issues, is it just me, or is anyone else reminded of when the notoriously difficult Queen Mab speech was pretty much hit out of park in 1997's Romeo + Juliet? Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 12:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it's just you. Liz 06:21, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- In relation to "MAB" issues, is it just me, or is anyone else reminded of when the notoriously difficult Queen Mab speech was pretty much hit out of park in 1997's Romeo + Juliet? Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 12:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Kosem Sultan - warring edit
Hello, I am terribly sorry if I write this in wrong place, but I really don't know what place would be best to report this.
I was editing page of Kösem Sultan and I noticed this user: 109.228.104.136 changed phrase in infobox "spouse: Ahmed I" into "consort of: Ahmed I", claiming 'they were never married'. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=K%C3%B6sem_Sultan&oldid=1263148667
Because of this, I added information they were married and sourced this with book. However, this person keep revert to their preffered version of infobox. I asked them on Talk page about providing source. When I pointed that their source not disputes or even misinnterprets mine, they deleted my talk. They did this twice and even claimed I 'vandalized' Kosem's page.
As inexperienced user I was few times into edit warring, as I did not know how exactly rules are there.I try to be careful now to not make disruptions and while there is instruction to undo undsourced informations, I am not sure if I am allowed to undo their - unsourced - edition, as I already did this few times. I would not label changing 'spouse' for 'consort of' as vandalism per say, but I want to protect my edition and I wish this person provided source so we could each consensus. You can see our - now deleted by them - discussion here: 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:109.228.104.136&diff=prev&oldid=1267744138#Kosem_Sultan_was_wife_of_Ahmed_I. 2) https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:109.228.104.136&diff=prev&oldid=1267749540#Kosem_was_wife_of_Ahmed (I do not know if I linked this correctly, but both shound be find in history of talk page of user with today date)
I hope it can be seen I was willing to discuss things and I even proposed to merge ours versions, if only this person provide scholar source - which they didn't, as Tik Tok video they linked contardicts statement from my book (see details in discussions). I also want to add that blocked user called Cecac https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:K%C3%B6sem_Sultan#Marriage used exactly the same argument, as historian in Tik Tok provided by 109.228.104.136. I do not know if 109.228.104.136 and Cecac are the same person, but I think it should be checked. Finally, I do not know how much video made on Tik Tok should be considered as reliable source, so I am not sure how to act in this situation.
Again I apologize if I leave this message in wrong board - there were multiple issues so I decided to list them all. Please notify me if I am allowed edit Kosem's page and brought back informations, as I really want avoid going back-and-forth and do not want to be blocked myself. --Sobek2000 (talk) 14:45, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I want to add that I informed user 109.228.104.136 about this reprt, however they delete this from their Talk page. Sobek2000 (talk) 23:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I will point out that consort is generally considered synonymous with the word spouse. Elizabeth I's mother, for example was officially the "queen consort" of the united kingdom. Insanityclown1 (talk) 19:32, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, indeed, but in this person's inention was to make Kosem be perceived as not wife, but concubine. While I do agree that all wife of monarch is also his consort, this person meant 'concubine' and I was afraid they gonna delete also other parts, when I was reffering to Kosem as sultan's wife, hence I inetrvened. English for some reason reffer to all sulatns partners as 'consorts' regardless if they are married or not, that's why it's important to highlight when consort was actually wife, like in Kosem's case. Sobek2000 (talk) 15:29, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I will point out that consort is generally considered synonymous with the word spouse. Elizabeth I's mother, for example was officially the "queen consort" of the united kingdom. Insanityclown1 (talk) 19:32, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
Sockpuppetry in Philippine articles
Page protected. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:15, 11 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Request an immediate and extended range block for 49.145.5.109 (talk · contribs), a certified sock of LTA Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Yaysmay15 from editing 2025 in the Philippines and other related pages pending a result of a protection request, the second to have been filed for that page after the first instance of sockpuppetry by the same account was deemed not serious enough. See also Misplaced Pages:Long-term abuse/Yaysmay15. Borgenland (talk) 07:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- It seems like this should be reported at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Yaysmay15, not at ANI. That's where the checkusers are at although they are generally reluctant to connect an IP account with a blocked sockpuppet. Liz 04:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is already confirmed in the SPI. However, as it is an IP account that can't be indeffed, I'd had to check my calendar too often to see when their existing block expires. 15:48, 8 January 2025 (UTC) Borgenland (talk) 15:48, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Given that 2025 in the Philippines has been protected for the rest of the year, this probably isn't necessary. Also, worth noting that as p-blocks are limited to ten pages, we'd need to remove one from the block to add the 2025 page. Elli (talk | contribs) 00:16, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Wigglebuy579579
- Wigglebuy579579 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) keeps engaging in disruptive editing behaviour:
- they created dozens of articles by copy-pasting AI-generated text;
- they ignored all warnings onto their talk page;
- they duplicated draftified articles by simply recreating them.
Miminity and I have been cleaning the mess for hours, warned him several times, but he just ignores everything and starts again. – Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 17:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would support indefinitely blocking this user. Their output is entirely low quality AI-generated slop, and they are contributing nothing of value to the encyclopedia while placing considerable burden on others. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Est. 2021, can you provide some examples so we don't have to search through their contributions? Thank you. Liz 19:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Some pertinent examples Draft:Toda_Religion/2 (moved to mainspace by Wiggle and then back to draftspace) and Draft:Indigenous religions of India (exactly the same scenario as previous). These are all obviously AI generated based on their formatting. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:09, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Liz: Examples include:
- among others. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 19:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Liz: This editor left a message on my talkpage and again it is clearly written by AI. Here's the link Warm Regards, Miminity (Talk?) (me contribs) 00:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Some pertinent examples Draft:Toda_Religion/2 (moved to mainspace by Wiggle and then back to draftspace) and Draft:Indigenous religions of India (exactly the same scenario as previous). These are all obviously AI generated based on their formatting. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:09, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Are any of the references in Draft:Pfütsana Religion/2 real or are they all hallucinations? I'm having trouble finding them on web searches. They're also suspiciously old even though there is more recent relevant literature. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 01:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- The Misplaced Pages:Large language models essay recommends G3 for articles for which text-source integrity is completely lacking. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 01:22, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rsjaffe: Using BookFinder.com, Citation #1, #3 (might be a dupref of 1) does exist but has different author, Citation #2 does exist and is correct. #4 is dupref of #2. A quoted google search and a google scholar search about #5, 8, 9, 11 (The journals does not seem to even exist) yields no result. No result for 6, 7, 9, 10 (Nagaland State Press does not seems to even exist) 12 Warm Regards, Miminity (Talk?) (me contribs) 02:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would like to hear from @Wigglebuy579579, but, if the results of the reference searches on the other drafts are like this, then all those drafts should be deleted as unverifiable. LLM output can look very correct while hiding significant falsehoods, and it will be impossible to sort fact from fiction in those articles if they haven't been validated word-for-word with real sources. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 03:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Click all the link on the Draft:Toda Religion/2, all of them are {{failed verification}}. Either the page does not exist or the website itself does not exist. The JSTOR sources leads to a completely unrelated article. I think by the looks of it, this draft is safe to delete
- @Wigglebuy579579: care to explain? Warm Regards, Miminity (Talk?) (me contribs) 03:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would like to hear from @Wigglebuy579579, but, if the results of the reference searches on the other drafts are like this, then all those drafts should be deleted as unverifiable. LLM output can look very correct while hiding significant falsehoods, and it will be impossible to sort fact from fiction in those articles if they haven't been validated word-for-word with real sources. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 03:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rsjaffe: more ref-checking at Draft:Pfütsana: as Miminity observes, The Angami Nagas: With Some Notes on Neighbouring Tribes exists (although with the BrE spelling of the title) and I accessed it at archive.org. It does not mention pfütsana anywhere in its 570 pages. The closest we get is pfuchatsuma, which is a clan mentioned in a list of sub-clans of the Anagmi. The draft says
The term Pfütsana is derived from the Angami language, where "Pfü" translates to "life" or "spirit,"
which is contrary to what The Angami Nagas says – pfü is a suffix functioning sort of similarly to a pronoun (and I think I know how the LLM hallucinated the meaning "spirit" but this is getting too long already). I looked at a couple of the sources for Draft:Indigenous religions of India as well, and I haven't been able to find a single instance where the source verifies the claims in the draft. --bonadea contributions talk 16:48, 9 January 2025 (UTC)- Thanks for checking. Those are now deleted. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 16:52, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Est. 2021 and Miminity, thanks for supplying examples that can be reviewed. Liz 04:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have deleted Draft:Pfütsana Religion/2 and Draft:Toda Religion/2 as they have falsified references. Checking the others would be appreciated. Also, editor has been warned on their page about inserting unsubstantiated demographic data in articles. User talk:Wigglebuy579579#January 2025. I think we’re running out of WP:ROPE here. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 16:19, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rsjaffe: Draft:Sekrenyi Festival: J.H. Hutton's The Angami Nagas (1921) doesn't mention any such festival, but talks about a sekrengi ritual which includes the "purification" elements described in the draft. But that's as close as it gets. The rest of the ritual described in the draft is very different from the festival described in the book (let's just say that it is not something that would attract tourists like the draft claims), and the etymology is sheer nonsense. So again I believe it is an LLM that, like the proverbial blind chicken, has found a seed and then, like the same chicken but without a head, is running in confused circles around it.
- It also amuses me a bit that a book from 1922 is used to support a statement about how the festival is a popular symbol of the culture today. (FTR, publications from the era of the British Raj should never be used to support claims about ethnic/tribal/caste related topics, though that is a bit tangential to the issue here.) --bonadea contributions talk 18:21, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have deleted Draft:Pfütsana Religion/2 and Draft:Toda Religion/2 as they have falsified references. Checking the others would be appreciated. Also, editor has been warned on their page about inserting unsubstantiated demographic data in articles. User talk:Wigglebuy579579#January 2025. I think we’re running out of WP:ROPE here. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 16:19, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's a pity that the editor has not engaged with this discussion. The areas they're editing in could use more work, and I get the impression that they are here to improve the encyclopedia. However, the way in which they're going about it needs reform, and if they don't explicitly commit to reform, I am inclined to block this editor for the overreliance on LLMs and the careless inclusion of incorrect and false references. What do others think? — rsjaffe 🗣️ 22:36, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I suggest a topic ban on creating article as the editor seems to have okay-ish mainspace edits. Warm Regards, Miminity (Talk?) (me contribs) 01:26, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- I came across their edits several days ago, when a link they provided (with an archive link) didn't exist, even when I substituted ".in" for the correct website domain of ".com", so I've got no idea where they got those links from in the first place?
- They've responded to my talk page warning, but after going back to edit the exact same article they haven't fixed/reinstated the source so I'm now a little concerned that it came from AI & the user didn't find it themselves. They've done a lot of work on this article so I'm hoping it's just a one-off, but thought I'd best mention it.
- Their previous edit had the summary "Fixed errors" and removed almost a dozen sources/links. Blue Sonnet (talk) 02:16, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- That is very concerning. And the user is still editing and not responding to this discussion. Blocked from article space and draft space and reinvited to come here to discuss. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 05:06, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
User:BittersweetParadox - Overlinking
Not a problem; request rejectedThe following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- BittersweetParadox (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This user is persistently MOS:OVERLINKing throughout most of their edits that aren't dealing with categories or redirects, see for example:
I have also recently warned the user on their talk page regarding this, but they have seemingly chosen to ignore that warning, as they are still continuing with the same behavior:
This is also not the first time the issue has been brought up to the user, as they were previously warned in July 2024, where even after claiming to understand the issue/say they won't do it again, continued the same behavior. With their ignoring of warnings regarding overlinking, it unfortunately appears that an ANI discussion may be the only way to solve this ongoing issue, apart from a block. Magitroopa (talk) 17:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Overlinking still continuing on despite this ANI (for example), and even with an administrator suggesting they not ignore this ANI, continues on with their edits/ignoring this ANI. The user is not appearing to want to WP:COMMUNICATE whatsoever, and some of their communication over issues in the past does not bode well as well ().
- They are adding many uses of Template:Baseball year, despite the usage instructions saying that the template should not be used in prose text. I really am not sure what more there is to do here, as any attempts at communicating with the user does virtually nothing. Magitroopa (talk) 20:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- @BittersweetParadox: It's rather insulting to state you'll comment here and then continue to overlink . Please stop editing like this until you can address the above concerns. Rgrds. --BX (talk) 07:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Liz: Apologies for the ping, but could there please be some assistance here?... As BX stated above, despite their only communication thus far since this ANI (being a simple, "ok"), they have still continued overlinking- now overlinking even more since BX's comment above: . I'm really not sure what more there is that can be done here apart from a block, as it appears this is just going to continue on, no matter what anyone says here or on their talk page. Magitroopa (talk) 16:55, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
Several of the diffs you give are positive changes, and your inappropriate reverts have caused articles to be underlinked. Leave BittersweetParadox alone. If you insist that he be sanctioned for the negative edits, you'll get some as well. Nyttend (talk) 03:47, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.Automatic editing, abusive behaviour, and disruptive(ish) wikihounding from User:KMaster888
(non-admin closure) While KMaster888's editing history (the original discussion) wasn't inherently bad in itself, their conduct after being questioned about it was bad, violating WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL, WP:SUMMARYNO, and WP:NPA See , , , , , , , , , and their comments on this thread. Indeffed by Cullen328, and TPA revoked after , another personal attack. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 02:18, 9 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:KMaster888 appears to be making lightning speed edits that are well beyond the capacity of any human to review, in addition to article content that's coming across potentially LLM-like in nature. Since December they've made over 11,000 edits, many across multiple articles within a sixty second window.
I attempted to ask about the policies around this at User_talk:Novem_Linguae and was met with a tirade of obscenities and abuse (which I want to give them a slight benefit of the doubt on, I'd be upset at being accused of being a bot if I wasn't):
As far as I can tell this peaked with a total of 89 edits in a four minute window between 08:27 to 08:31 on December 28, 2024. Most are innocuous, but there are content edits thrown in the mix and recent articles were written in a way that indicates it may be an LLM (diff not definitive, though if you are familiar with LLM output this may ring some alarm bells, but false alarms abound).
Following the quite hot thread at User:Novem Linguae's page, it's quite clear that whoever is operating that bot threw my entire edit history into the mix, because the bot systematically edited every single article that I had edited, in reverse order (over 100 so far since this came up about an couple of hours ago), going back a reasonable amount of time.
The problem is that it's clear that a bot was instructed to just make an edit, without concern for what those edits are, so you end up with questionable, misrepresented, or edits for the sake of editing at a rate far faster than any editor could address.
This one is easily one of the strangest situations I've ever encountered on Misplaced Pages. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 20:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm flattered that you've looked into my activity on Misplaced Pages so closely. But if you'd be arsed, you'd understand that it is very simple to do an insource search using a regular expression to find a lot of stylistic errors, like no space after a sentence. If you love being on my back so much, good on you, but I'd wish if you got off. KMaster888 (talk) 20:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- 1) That doesn't explain how consistently abusive you have been
- 2) While I'm aware that an overwhelming percentage of the errors you're editing out are ones that can simply be addressed by regex, I'm very clearly raising the content edits as opposed to formatting ones. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 20:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- How about we take this off of ANI, of all places? KMaster888 (talk) 21:00, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, this feels quite appropriate considering your abusiveness and that your retaliation involved damaging some articles. I said there I was asking a policy question and was happy to let it go, you've edited over 100 articles from my edit history in direct sequence in response to that question, which is just strange behaviour for an editor. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 21:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Obviously, if there's someone who's making bad decisions on Misplaced Pages (You), I want to check if he has messed up articles. Please tell me what articles you think I have damaged. KMaster888 (talk) 21:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also, I'd appreciate if you would stop casting aspersions about me being an LLM. KMaster888 (talk) 21:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- As I said then, and as I'll say again: If there's not an LLM involved in this situation, then I'm sincerely sorry. It was a combination of clearly assisted editing and the verbiage used that looked concerning. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 21:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- There was no assisted editing. Stop spreading that blatant falsehood. This is why I say to take this off of ANI. It is stuff that is made up in your head that has no basis in reality. KMaster888 (talk) 21:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
Unless you're doing regex with your eyes, clearly you're using assistance. And the fact you're (still!) doing something that fixes the same type of typo almost as fast as I can click "Random Article" indicates you're doing more than just regex. You're finding these articles somehow.closhund/talk/ 22:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- I am doing an "insource" search using regex. KMaster888 (talk) 22:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I learned about insource searches recently and was able to find spam by the boatload immediately. It is a great tool. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 22:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ah . I wasn't aware one could do that. I retract. closhund/talk/ 22:36, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I learned about insource searches recently and was able to find spam by the boatload immediately. It is a great tool. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 22:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am doing an "insource" search using regex. KMaster888 (talk) 22:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- There was no assisted editing. Stop spreading that blatant falsehood. This is why I say to take this off of ANI. It is stuff that is made up in your head that has no basis in reality. KMaster888 (talk) 21:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- As I said then, and as I'll say again: If there's not an LLM involved in this situation, then I'm sincerely sorry. It was a combination of clearly assisted editing and the verbiage used that looked concerning. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 21:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- And, I would appreciate if you would stop calling my edits strange and odd. KMaster888 (talk) 21:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You had over 100 edits in a row directily in chronological sequence, from newest to oldest, of my exact edit history excluding wikiprojects and talk pages. I'm allowed to find that a little strange. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 21:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why shouldn't someone call strange and odd edits strange and odd? Phil Bridger (talk) 21:32, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, this feels quite appropriate considering your abusiveness and that your retaliation involved damaging some articles. I said there I was asking a policy question and was happy to let it go, you've edited over 100 articles from my edit history in direct sequence in response to that question, which is just strange behaviour for an editor. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 21:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @KMaster888 I suggest you stop with the personal attacks before you get blocked. Tarlby 21:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe I'm a little less forgiving than Tarlby, so I would suggest that KMaster888 should be blocked/banned already. Knowing how to write regular expressions doesn't give anyone the right to ignore policy about such issues as civility and hounding. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have not ignored policy on either civility or hounding. The fact is, there are no automation tools that I have used, and this has been constructed as a theory entirely as a falsehood. It is annoying that one Misplaced Pages user constantly spouts falsehoods about me. KMaster888 (talk) 21:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'll just ask you straight up.Do you feel any remorse for this statement?
remove asshole
Could you explain why you felt it was best to choose those two words when blanking your talk page? Tarlby 21:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- And again:
@The Corvette ZR1 @Tarlby stop clogging up ANI with your comments.
The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 22:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- And again:
- I'll just ask you straight up.Do you feel any remorse for this statement?
- I have not ignored policy on either civility or hounding. The fact is, there are no automation tools that I have used, and this has been constructed as a theory entirely as a falsehood. It is annoying that one Misplaced Pages user constantly spouts falsehoods about me. KMaster888 (talk) 21:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- , , , , , Tarlby 21:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- And this: improve asinine comment and this: I wipe my ass with comments like yours. Cheers! MrOllie (talk) 21:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- That was because Misplaced Pages's servers literally went down, which didn't allow the PHP form to be processed correctly. I would say the same to you as I said to the other editor: get off my back. KMaster888 (talk) 21:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You have to abide by the rules like the rest of us. And cool it with the hostile edit summaries. MiasmaEternal☎ 21:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Great answer. Tarlby 21:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You are clearly WP:NOTHERE. Attacking other editors instead of backing off, inappropriate edit summaries, what next? The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 21:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- There ought to be a gossip noticeboard that doesn't clog up ANI. KMaster888 (talk) 21:45, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I will dispute what you said. I AM HERE to build an encyclopedia. Why do you think I would have given 10,000 edits worth of my time if I didn't care? KMaster888 (talk) 21:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would say that you are here to build an encyclopedia. Unfortunately, WP:CIVIL and WP:SUMMARYNO tell me the contrary. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 21:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Regardless of their editing or otherwise, KMaster888's comments in edit summaries and here indicate they're WP:OBNOXIOUS in a way that indicates an inability to participate in a collaborative encyclopedia. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:07, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- The product of Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, which is a body of written and visual work. It is first and foremost about the product, not the community. In this sense, it is indeed a collaborative encyclopedia, but it should not be considered an encyclopedic collaboation. KMaster888 (talk) 23:13, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Wikilawyering over what "collaboration" is doesn't help when you're in blatant violation of the fourth of the five pillars. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not Wikilawyering. I would also encourage you to come to a discussion on my talk page over small potatoes instead of at ANI. KMaster888 (talk) 23:19, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is wikilawyering. And this is at ANI, so the discussion is taking place at ANI. Answering the concerns about your conduct that were raised here on here is how you resolve the issue, not "don't talk about it on ANI", as the latter gives the impression of trying to sweep them under the rug - especially since your edit summaries MrOllie linked above make it clear this is very much not "small potatoes". - The Bushranger One ping only 23:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not Wikilawyering. I would also encourage you to come to a discussion on my talk page over small potatoes instead of at ANI. KMaster888 (talk) 23:19, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Wikilawyering over what "collaboration" is doesn't help when you're in blatant violation of the fourth of the five pillars. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- The product of Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, which is a body of written and visual work. It is first and foremost about the product, not the community. In this sense, it is indeed a collaborative encyclopedia, but it should not be considered an encyclopedic collaboation. KMaster888 (talk) 23:13, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Regardless of their editing or otherwise, KMaster888's comments in edit summaries and here indicate they're WP:OBNOXIOUS in a way that indicates an inability to participate in a collaborative encyclopedia. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:07, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would say that you are here to build an encyclopedia. Unfortunately, WP:CIVIL and WP:SUMMARYNO tell me the contrary. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 21:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- That was because Misplaced Pages's servers literally went down, which didn't allow the PHP form to be processed correctly. I would say the same to you as I said to the other editor: get off my back. KMaster888 (talk) 21:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- And this: improve asinine comment and this: I wipe my ass with comments like yours. Cheers! MrOllie (talk) 21:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe I'm a little less forgiving than Tarlby, so I would suggest that KMaster888 should be blocked/banned already. Knowing how to write regular expressions doesn't give anyone the right to ignore policy about such issues as civility and hounding. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Here's some more diffs of KMaster888 being uncivil. From my user talk page. . I think these are forgivable if in isolation since KMaster888 may be frustrated by false accusations of being a bot, but if it's a pattern, it may need addressing.
- The WP:BLUDGEONING and WP:BADGERING of my user talk page and of this ANI is also a behavioral problem that, if a pattern, may also need addressing. It is disrespectful to interlocutor's time and brainpower to dominate discussions by replying to everything. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:36, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Unless there are specific discussion rules, I should not be penalized for responding to comments that involve me. KMaster888 (talk) 23:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- The problem isn't you responding to those comments. It's about HOW you responded to those comments. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 23:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- There are, in fact,
specific discussion rules
- WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. - The Bushranger One ping only 06:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Unless there are specific discussion rules, I should not be penalized for responding to comments that involve me. KMaster888 (talk) 23:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
Propose indefinite block
Blocked and TPA revoked. - The Bushranger One ping only 06:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- KMaster888 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- You're saying "they" like it's more than one person. I am one editor. KMaster888 (talk) 23:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Not in that sense. We use they/them pronouns as to not assume an editor's gender. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 23:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support per above reasoning. MiasmaEternal☎ 23:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Looks like Cullen328 beat us to that indef. MiasmaEternal☎ 23:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support per WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior. Their blank talkpage, on which they encourage discussion, has a nonexistent archive. Miniapolis 23:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- That is not true. The archive page is at the subpage of the talk page, /archive. KMaster888 (talk) 23:45, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support - While I wouldn’t have had the same suspicions about their editing as Warren, their extremely uncivil reactions to it and further questions here, along with the further attention they’ve drawn on to prior recent behaviour has effectively demonstrated an unwillingness to engage in meaningful interaction with any other editor who disagrees with them. Rambling Rambler (talk) 23:52, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe revoke TPA too? This is beyond the pale. closhund/talk/ 23:57, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- After their latest personal attack, I have revoked their talk page access. Cullen328 (talk) 23:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support. This personal attack against blocking admin Cullen328 is beyond the pale. This is clearly a person that lets rage get the best of them, and is not responsive to feedback. Not sure if we should close this, or let it play out and turn into a CBAN. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:17, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Good block and I'd have done same if you hadn't been here first. Regardless of whether the edits were improvements, no one has the right to treat other editors as KM888 did. Star Mississippi 01:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Good block It'd take a hand-written miracle from God for them to change their ways anytime soon.
Investigating the hounding claim
Above, there is a claim that KMaster888 is WP:HOUNDING Warrenmck by editing 100 pages that Warrenmck has edited. The editor interaction analyzer suggests that there's only an overlap of 45 pages (42 if you subtract out my user talk, KMaster888's user talk, and ANI). Warrenmck, can you please be very specific about exactly which pages overlap? Maybe give a link to KMaster888's contribs and timestamps of where this range of hounding edits begins and ends? This is a serious claim and probably actionable if enough evidence is provided. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Note that there are >100 edits across the pages, since they tended to edit in a spree. The number of pages you found seems accurate, even accounting for the possibility of a few outside of this exchange. I’m not sure what exactly I can do to show the relationship to my edit history beyond I guess go pull said histories and compare them? But I wouldn’t be surprised if the vast majority of the interactions you see were from that narrow window after your talk page.
- Sorry for the drama, by the way. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 01:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ah that makes sense. I didn't think of the multiple edits to a page thing. No worries about the drama. –Novem Linguae (talk) 02:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please don't apologise for this. Nobody should have to put up with such behaviour. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:47, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Bgsu98 mass-nominating articles for deletion and violating WP:BEFORE
- Bgsu98 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Hello! Sorry if this isn't the right place to post this.
I noticed an editor named Bgsu98 who had been mass-nominating figure skater articles for deletion. It is too obvious to me that he doesn't do even a minimum search required by WP:BEFORE before nominating. (I must note that most of the skaters he nominates for AfD aren't English, so a foreign language search is required. Sometimes you need to search on a foreign search engine. For example, Google seems to ignore many Russian websites recently.)
I have counted 45 articles nominated by him at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Skating. And it is worrying that people seem to rely on the nominator's competence and vote "delete" without much thought.
I should note that Bgsu98 doesn't seem to stop even when an article he nominated has been kept. He nominated Kamil Białas (a national medalist) two times with the same rationale (Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Kamil Białas (2nd nomination)). One can really wonder why he does this.
P.S. More information is here: Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Figure Skating#Notability guidelines. What happened is that the notability guidelines for some sportspeople were changed a few years ago. And a large chunk of figure skater articles (most of them, honestly) are now outside of WP:NSKATE. It seems that no one acted on this change until Bgsu98 came.
P.P.S. As I stated on the WikiProject Figure Skating talk page I linked above, I think it was very unfair to change the rules. Especially since web sources tend to die out after some time.
P.P.P.S. I would also like to note that I am polite, while Bgsu98 has already accused me of "bad-faith accusations and outright lies" (source). --Moscow Connection (talk) 01:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- as the closer of several skating AfDs, I have no issue with a DRV if @Moscow Connection or any other editor believes I closed it in error. However MC, you seem to acknowledge these skaters don't meet the rules and have an issue with the rules. That isn't grounds for a DRV nor a report against @Bgsu98 who is nominating based on community consensus. Star Mississippi 02:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree with Star Mississippi. But just to give some scope, this cleaning house, mostly of ice skating junior champions, is not recent, it's been going on for at least 6-9 months now, it was originally done through the use of PROD'd articles. But while there have been some objections raised over the past year, Bgsu98's efforts have mostly received support from editors who believe Misplaced Pages is bloated with biographies of marginally notable athletes. Over the past two weeks, through the use of AFD, we have seen dozens and dozens (hundreds?) of annual national skating championship articles either deleted or redirected. But I just want to note that these AFDs wouldn't have closed as "Delete all" or "Redirect all" without the support of other AFD participants. Very few editors are arguing to Keep them all. Liz 02:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- "However MC, you seem to acknowledge these skaters don't meet the rules and have an issue with the rules."
— They don't meet WP:NSKATE, but most (if not all) are famous people and should meet WP:GNG. Therefore, caution should be exercised when deleting. I don't think a national silver medalist can be unknown, it is just that reliable sources are hard or even impossible to find now. It appears that some years ago the rules didn't require WP:GNG, so skater articles were created with simply "He advanced to the free skate at the 2010 World Championships" or "He is a national senior silver medalist", which was enough for an article to not be "picked at". The editors who created skater articles back then probably didn't want to do more than a bare minimum and didn't care to add reliable sources beyond the ISU website profile. One who decides to delete a skater article must keep in mind that reliable sources probably existed at the time the article was created. Cause, as I've said, these skaters arn't unknown. They represented their countries at the highest possible level of competition.
(I've recently noticed that Google News don't go as far back as before. Some web sites deleted their older content. Some have even completely disappeared. Like, I mostly edit music articles, and I've noticed that if didn't create some articles 10 years ago, I wouldn't be able to create them now.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC)- Even if being a junior national medallist was enough in and of itself, WP:V has always been a thing. You can't just state some fact that would meet a specific notability guideline like WP:NSKATE without providing verification of the claim without the possibility that the article will be nominated at AFD or redirected. TarnishedPath 02:35, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Star Mississippi and Liz: A WP:DRV, a deletion review? Is it maybe possible to undelete "Lilia Biktagirova" (Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lilia Biktagirova)? Cause I was searching for sources for Alexandra Ievleva and found something like a short biography of hers, two paragraphs long.
Here: "Тренер Трусовой, почти партнерша Жубера, резонансная Иевлева: кто соревновался с Туктамышевой на ее 1-м ЧР (2008)".
And again, it was Bgsu98 who nominated the article back in May. And he was told, I'm quoting User:Hydronium Hydroxide: "There are a whole bunch of similarly deficient nominations. Really, such blanket nominations without evidence of WP:BEFORE and consideration of WP:ATD should be all procedurally kept as WP:SKCRIT#3 given lack of a valid deletion rationale." --Moscow Connection (talk) 23:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC) - After looking at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lilia Biktagirova, I think no one will say that I was incorrect about how people vote at AfD. There's even a comment like this: "WP:NSKATE lists some very clear criteria for inclusion, which this article does not meet." And then a more experienced user noted that you should actually search for coverage that may satisfy WP:GNG, but no one actually searched and the article was deleted. --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have also found an interview with Lilia Biktagirova: . Yes, it is an interview, but there an editorial paragraph about her (an introductiion). There also a short paragraph here → . Not much, but considering she competed almost 20 years ago... --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:34, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes @Moscow Connection you're welcome to file a deletion review or request that @Liz provide you the draft to improve with the sourcing you identified. Neither of us can unilaterally overturn the community discussion. Star Mississippi 14:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes @Moscow Connection you're welcome to file a deletion review or request that @Liz provide you the draft to improve with the sourcing you identified. Neither of us can unilaterally overturn the community discussion. Star Mississippi 14:36, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay. --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is a content dispute and not an ANI-worthy issue. * Pppery * it has begun... 03:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think this is a content dispute. I think the user violates WP:BEFORE, otherwise it would be impossible to create tons of nominations. And please look at the AfD page, all his nominations simply say: "Non-notable figure skater", "Non-notable figure skater, PROD removed", "Non-notable figure skater; no senior-level medal placements" or "Non-notable figure skater; highest medal placement was silver at the German nationals". It is obvious that there's no WP:BEFORE research and as little consideration as "humanly possible".
Okay, since Bgsu98 pinged someone in his support, I'll ping BeanieFan11 and Doczilla. (Sorry for disturbing you, BeanieFan11 and Doczilla.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)- When closing one AfD, I made some observations about that day's many AfDs and noted in that one close regarding Bgsu98: "The nominator's burst of dozens of nominations within half an hour failed to stimulate any discussion about many of them." In my meager opinion, the massive number of rapid deletion nominations rather strongly might suggest, at the very least, a lack of due diligence regarding each and a likely violation of WP:BEFORE. Doczilla Ohhhhhh, no! 07:02, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think this is a content dispute. I think the user violates WP:BEFORE, otherwise it would be impossible to create tons of nominations. And please look at the AfD page, all his nominations simply say: "Non-notable figure skater", "Non-notable figure skater, PROD removed", "Non-notable figure skater; no senior-level medal placements" or "Non-notable figure skater; highest medal placement was silver at the German nationals". It is obvious that there's no WP:BEFORE research and as little consideration as "humanly possible".
- Moscow Connection claims to be polite, yet wrote the following: "random people at AfD don't care about actually checking the notability and just vote "delete per nom". Pinging Shrug02 who also found that comment objectionable. I have made an effort to thank editors who have participated in my AFD's, regardless of whether they have always agreed with my findings, because AFD's that end in "no consensus" do nothing but waste everyone's time.
- He has been adversarial and confrontational in every communication to me. From Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Hanna Harrell: "By the way, I don't understand your agenda here on AfD... Like, you nomitated Kamil Białas 2 (two) times with exactly the same rationale... Are you planning to nominate it 100 times?"
- I always appreciate constructive feedback when it's delivered in a courteous and professional manner. Moscow Connection seems incapable of courtesy or professionalism. Bgsu98 (Talk) 04:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- C'mon, User:Bgsu98, civility goes both ways. We can discuss the value of these articles and the AFD process without attacking each other. Flinging mud doesn't give anyone the moral high ground. Liz 04:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I apologize, Liz; I am just at my wit's end with this editor. Bgsu98 (Talk) 04:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Here's my take, User:Bgsu98. You have been taking extremely BOLD actions now for most of 2024, proposing the removal of certain articles that are now being judged to be of non-notable article subjects. I think we have even had other discussions about these mass deletions on ANI before when they were still being done in the PROD world. When you take on a project like cleaning house of hundreds of articles that other editors spent time creating and improving, you can expect pushback even if you have policy on your side. Any action that seems "mass" can cause alarm in regular editors who don't believe sufficient care is being taken before tagging these articles for deletion. While I might agree with the overall goal of your project, I think it's important to have empathy for editors who have contributed to these articles over the years that are now being regularly deleted. Most of my work involves the deletion of pages and I still feel some pangs of guilt over removing articles that editors have poured hours into, even if i know they don't meet Misplaced Pages's current standards. It's a job that must be done but I know that it's disappointing to many of our content creators. Liz 05:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- As I have been pinged on this discussion I thought I would 1 confirm I did find @Moscow Connection to be somewhat rude and condescending in their repeated assertions that those who vote on these skating AFDs do not do any research and are basically sheep just voting delete and 2 most of these nominated bios are a few sentences or just a table of stats copy and pasted so @Liz I doubt anyone spent hours putting them together. Finally I feel @Moscow Connection is now looking to use any procedure they can to try and besmirch @Bgsu98 and derail their valid efforts to remove some of the seemingly thousands of sports bios that do not meet current Misplaced Pages guidelines and are of interest to few, if any, general reader. If anyone is in need of reprimand or sanction over this matter (which has been blown out of all proportion), it is @Moscow Connection Shrug02 (talk) 09:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why should I be "reprimanded"? My comments about "people at AfD' were non-specific, while Bgsu98 directly accused me of lying. (In the Russian Misplaced Pages, he would be blocked for this "automatically".)
Also, a note to admins: Can it be that Bgsu98 finds fun in annoying other editors? I can't really explain the content of his user page differently. Yes, surely, different people can have different motivation for editing Misplaced Pages, but I don't think it is a "normal situation" when you look at someone's user page and see how the person likes to be "evil".
And, btw, please note that Bgsu98 summoned Shrug02 here for the purpose of supporting him. I haven't summoned anybody. (Maybe some people would notice, but Bgsu98 deleted my ANI notice from his talk page immediately.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:35, 8 January 2025 (UTC)- @Moscow Connection I am going to be generous and presume English is not your first language so your choice of wording might be a little off. However, I was not "summoned" or asked to support anyone. @Bgsu98 pinged me and I gave my view. I did not say you SHOULD be reprimanded, I said IF anyone was to be sanctioned over this matter then it would be you. My reasoning for this is your attacking @Bgsu98, making broad statements questioning the intelligence of people at AFD discussions and using this forum incorrectly. As for what happens on Russian Misplaced Pages, that is their busines. I hope you have read @HyperAccelerated's comment as I think it sums this situation up nicely. Shrug02 (talk) 15:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I haven't questioned anybody's intelligence. It is just my experience that many people trust the nominator and vote "delete" without much thinking. They maybe quickly visit the article in discussion, look at the "References" section, that's enough for them. And they typically don't speak Russian or Hebrew or whatever. So, when they see "Selepen", they hardly go to yandex.ru and search for "Шелепень". --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:09, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay, "summon" is not the right word. Sorry. "He asked you to come". But that "I am going to be generous" sentence doesn't look polite. --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- According to this, "summon" and "ask to" are the same thing. --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Moscow Connection
- Cambridge Dictionary definition of summon (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/summon) is "to order someone to come to or be present at a particular place, or to officially arrange a meeting of people."
- No-one ORDERED me to take part in this discussion.
- If there is so much significant coverage for these skaters then the simple solution is for you to add it to the articles in question with suitable references and then AFDs will end as keep.
- I am now finished with this discussion and I hope the admins step in and end it soon.
- All the best to everyone involved. Shrug02 (talk) 16:42, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Moscow Connection wrote the following in his original complaint: ”…decided to mass-delete articles that don't comply with WP:NSKATE… I am sure most articles he deleted had the right to stay per WP:GNG.” I don’t have the ability to “mass-delete” anything, and if most of those articles met WP:GNG, the users at AFD would have voted to keep them. Just two examples of MC’s falsehoods. Bgsu98 (Talk) 16:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- OK. But you have also mass-prodded articles, that's the same as "deleting". (Like a "delayed deletion".) --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:36, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Moscow Connection I am going to be generous and presume English is not your first language so your choice of wording might be a little off. However, I was not "summoned" or asked to support anyone. @Bgsu98 pinged me and I gave my view. I did not say you SHOULD be reprimanded, I said IF anyone was to be sanctioned over this matter then it would be you. My reasoning for this is your attacking @Bgsu98, making broad statements questioning the intelligence of people at AFD discussions and using this forum incorrectly. As for what happens on Russian Misplaced Pages, that is their busines. I hope you have read @HyperAccelerated's comment as I think it sums this situation up nicely. Shrug02 (talk) 15:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why should I be "reprimanded"? My comments about "people at AfD' were non-specific, while Bgsu98 directly accused me of lying. (In the Russian Misplaced Pages, he would be blocked for this "automatically".)
- As I have been pinged on this discussion I thought I would 1 confirm I did find @Moscow Connection to be somewhat rude and condescending in their repeated assertions that those who vote on these skating AFDs do not do any research and are basically sheep just voting delete and 2 most of these nominated bios are a few sentences or just a table of stats copy and pasted so @Liz I doubt anyone spent hours putting them together. Finally I feel @Moscow Connection is now looking to use any procedure they can to try and besmirch @Bgsu98 and derail their valid efforts to remove some of the seemingly thousands of sports bios that do not meet current Misplaced Pages guidelines and are of interest to few, if any, general reader. If anyone is in need of reprimand or sanction over this matter (which has been blown out of all proportion), it is @Moscow Connection Shrug02 (talk) 09:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Here's my take, User:Bgsu98. You have been taking extremely BOLD actions now for most of 2024, proposing the removal of certain articles that are now being judged to be of non-notable article subjects. I think we have even had other discussions about these mass deletions on ANI before when they were still being done in the PROD world. When you take on a project like cleaning house of hundreds of articles that other editors spent time creating and improving, you can expect pushback even if you have policy on your side. Any action that seems "mass" can cause alarm in regular editors who don't believe sufficient care is being taken before tagging these articles for deletion. While I might agree with the overall goal of your project, I think it's important to have empathy for editors who have contributed to these articles over the years that are now being regularly deleted. Most of my work involves the deletion of pages and I still feel some pangs of guilt over removing articles that editors have poured hours into, even if i know they don't meet Misplaced Pages's current standards. It's a job that must be done but I know that it's disappointing to many of our content creators. Liz 05:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- C'mon, User:Bgsu98, civility goes both ways. We can discuss the value of these articles and the AFD process without attacking each other. Flinging mud doesn't give anyone the moral high ground. Liz 04:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Let me help you out here, Moscow Connection. As it happens, Bgsu98 is a veteran editor with both tens of thousands of edits and a long history of editing skating articles. He is not, as you imply, some bomb thrower hellbent in laying waste to skating articles. Moving right along ...
(2) Your curious assertion that he was the first person to AfD no-longer-qualifying skating articles is inaccurate; I did so myself, right after the NSPORTS changes, and I recall several editors also doing so.
(3) The Bialas AfDs did not close as Keep, as you wrongly assert. They closed as "no consensus", with almost no participation and multiple relistings; that's exactly the kind of situation where renomination to seek an actual consensus is appropriate.
(4) Rules change on Misplaced Pages, by the bucketload. I have a hard time seeing what is "very unfair" about this, unless "very unfair" is a secret code for "I don't like it, so it's unfair." And ... seriously? You've been on Misplaced Pages for fifteen years, have over sixty thousand edits, have participated in nearly a hundred AfDs? I'd expect this level of confusion from a first-week newbie, not from an editor of your experience. Ravenswing 06:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- He only joined in 2021. I've looked at his "Pages Created" count, what he has been doing is creating pages for small figure skating events (for their yearly editions) since late 2023. That's hardly "a long history". --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- “Small figure skating events” like the National Championships of the U.S., Canada, France, Germany, and Italy; the Grand Prix series, including the Grand Prix Final; and the Challenger Series events? 1) Article Creation isn’t the only metric by which Misplaced Pages contributions can be measured, and 2) Referring to any of those events as “small” is ridiculous and insulting to all parties involved. I should have never even responded yesterday when three different administrators asserted that the original complaint was groundless. I’m done responding to this complainant. Bgsu98 (Talk) 17:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- He only joined in 2021. I've looked at his "Pages Created" count, what he has been doing is creating pages for small figure skating events (for their yearly editions) since late 2023. That's hardly "a long history". --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Given it is acknowledged that large numbers of articles on figure skaters do not meet Misplaced Pages's inclusion criteria (
What happened is that the notability guidelines for some sportspeople were changed a few years ago. And a large chunk of figure skater articles (most of them, honestly) are now outside of WP:NSKATE.
), I’m not really seeing anything unexpected here. — - Malcolmxl5 (talk) 12:26, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- As someone uninvolved in all of this, I’m reading that OP gets into a dispute about AfDs and then goes to ANI to make their grievances more visible to admins. Does OP not realize that admins are primarily responsible for moderating, closing, and relisting AfD discussions? Also, as someone else pointed above, this is a content dispute: it does not meet the standard for being urgent, chronic, or intractable. OP’s choice to insult another user by calling their behavior “crazy” multiple times is inappropriate and makes me believe that they might have just thrown a WP: BOOMERANG. HyperAccelerated (talk) 14:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- the bar for notability for skaters went up, someone came along and started nominating based on the new guidelines, and OP is upset. that seems to be the gist. i was not involved but didn't that happen in the porno biography area a few years ago? some change raised the bar so a lot of stuff was deleted. ValarianB (talk) 16:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I do heavily advise slowing down on the nominations. There is not enough editors in the figure skating topic area to give the appropriate amount of time to search for sources for these articles. To be honest, I'm sure that a good number of ones that were closed as "delete" were actually notable but no one did any in-depth BEFORE search (many would not have coverage in English and the coverage would be in foreign newspaper archives). I asked the user yesterday about the extent of the BEFORE searches and only got "Yes, but not as much as some people like" – and then I asked what search was done for the most recent example, from a few hours prior, and they said they had no recollection (which is concerning IMO, to have no idea what searches you did for an article you nominated a few hours prior). Note that the AFD rationales are often really poor; many are simply
Non-notable figure skater
, which doesn't say much of anything. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC)- I will slow down on nominations and focus on improving other aspects of the the FS articles, such as updating the infoboxes and tables to conform with our MOS. Bgsu98 (Talk) 17:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- And @Moscow Connection, you can help by, when the nomination involves a person whose native language is written in non-Latin characters (e.g., Cyrillic or Hebrew), replying in the AfD with a link to the native language web search for that person to help establish the presence or absence of notability support. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 17:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- But there are 45 (!) articles nominated for deletion. I looked at the AfD page and understood that it was physically impossible to do anything. So I decided to bring this situation to the attention of the Misplaced Pages community. It is easy to create 1000 AfD nominations with the same rationale ("Non-notable figure skater"), but even these mere 45 AfD nominations utterly scared me and discouraged me from even looking at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Skating. (I really can't do anything. I have some other articles, the ones I created, that need attention. And I have long "to do" lists that wait for years to be taken care of.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- The answer being, "So?" If neither the article creators nor anyone else has sought to provide proper sourcing for these articles -- the Ievleva article, for example, was created seventeen years ago -- then that just suggests no one's given enough of a damn to bother, and Misplaced Pages will survive these stubs' loss. It is not, nor ever has been, "physically impossible" to do anything about mass deletions; that's ridiculous. An AfD discussion is open for seven days, and it's easy to find adequate sources for an article ... certainly, in the cases of these Russian skaters, for a native speaker of Russian such as yourself. If you can't, the answer isn't that there's some flaw in the process or that Bgsu98 is pulling a fast one on us all. The answer is that the subjects are non-notable, and don't merit Misplaced Pages articles. Ravenswing 07:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- The nominator has agreed to slow down, so the point is kind of moot, but I still wanted to make clear: Ravenswing, 45 AFDs rapidly is ridiculous, especially when next-to-no-BEFORE is done and there previously was no indication of stopping – remember that there's only a few editors in the topic area – and many of these, which are notable, require more than simple Google searches to find the coverage that demonstrates notability (i.e., for many, the coverage would be in places such as difficult-to-find offline newspapers in foreign languages) – making so many nominations rapidly without appropriate searches will inevitably result in some truly notable ones being deleted due to the lack of effort. While you may not care about the stubs, others do, and simply because the two editors who drive-by to the nom and say "Delete per above" didn't find coverage absolutely does not equate to the subject being confirmed non-notable. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- The answer being, "So?" If neither the article creators nor anyone else has sought to provide proper sourcing for these articles -- the Ievleva article, for example, was created seventeen years ago -- then that just suggests no one's given enough of a damn to bother, and Misplaced Pages will survive these stubs' loss. It is not, nor ever has been, "physically impossible" to do anything about mass deletions; that's ridiculous. An AfD discussion is open for seven days, and it's easy to find adequate sources for an article ... certainly, in the cases of these Russian skaters, for a native speaker of Russian such as yourself. If you can't, the answer isn't that there's some flaw in the process or that Bgsu98 is pulling a fast one on us all. The answer is that the subjects are non-notable, and don't merit Misplaced Pages articles. Ravenswing 07:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Actually, I have attempted to do something yesterday. I voted and commented on two nominations. ("Alexandra Ievleva" and "Viktoria Vasilieva".) Cause these two are Russian figure skaters, and I know they are famous enough. Immediately a user came and wholesale dismissed all the sources I found. I don't really want to play that game, it's too tiresome. I have found another source for Alexandra Ievleva just now. Let's see what the outcome will be.
But really, I can't do it anymore. Maybe if these were articles I created, I would invest into searching for sources. Now, I just tried a little bit and saw that some people really want to delete these articles for whatever reason. There are a few people actually searching for sources at some nominations, but mostly it's just that old "you go and provide third-party reliable sources independent of the subject, so I can look at them and dismiss them" game.
Okay, people will say I am the bad person here, but I have actually tried to save a couple of articles. I don't understand why people so eagerly want to delete articles than can actually be kept. (Okay, there are mostly interviews and short news about the figure skaters placing here and there or missing some events, but those sources are reliable enough. And one can actually take the sources into account and leave the articles be.)
By the way, I have tried searching on what was once Yandex News, but the news search doesn't work anymore. (Here's an example.) There's nothing prior to 2024 when Yandex sold its assets including the news engine. And I can remember when the list of news articles there went back to 2003 or so... --Moscow Connection (talk) 23:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)- What I’m reading is that you don’t like how AfD works, and there hasn’t been any departure from normal processes. ANI is not the appropriate venue to discuss these issues. HyperAccelerated (talk) 10:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm sorry if this looks like a ramble. These were initially two or three separate replies. --Moscow Connection (talk) 23:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- But there are 45 (!) articles nominated for deletion. I looked at the AfD page and understood that it was physically impossible to do anything. So I decided to bring this situation to the attention of the Misplaced Pages community. It is easy to create 1000 AfD nominations with the same rationale ("Non-notable figure skater"), but even these mere 45 AfD nominations utterly scared me and discouraged me from even looking at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Skating. (I really can't do anything. I have some other articles, the ones I created, that need attention. And I have long "to do" lists that wait for years to be taken care of.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- And @Moscow Connection, you can help by, when the nomination involves a person whose native language is written in non-Latin characters (e.g., Cyrillic or Hebrew), replying in the AfD with a link to the native language web search for that person to help establish the presence or absence of notability support. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 17:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I will slow down on nominations and focus on improving other aspects of the the FS articles, such as updating the infoboxes and tables to conform with our MOS. Bgsu98 (Talk) 17:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Arbitrary break
...editors who believe Misplaced Pages is bloated with biographies of marginally notable athletes
. Just curious if you or anyone else honestly believes that the opinions of these editors takes priority over the view held in the real world that six million articles falls substantially short of "the sum of all human knowledge". One such view published almost five years ago contained the following statement: "According to one estimate, the sum of human knowledge would require 104 million articles". I know some of you are in serious denial and will try to suppress this as a result, but I'm gonna keep saying it anyway. We don't have the sum of all human knowledge, nor are we trying to achieve it. At best, we're the sum of what Google and legacy media has spoon-fed you today within the past X number of years. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions (posted 00:37, January 9, 2025 UTC)
- RadioKAOS, I'm not going to argue about whose "view takes priority" in the area of the sum of human knowledge but in an AFD discussion, decisions are made by determining the consensus of the editors who bothered to show up and present compelling policy-based arguments. That is typically editors who are active on Misplaced Pages and have an opinion about an article, not any scholar coming up with estimates on the necessary number of articles we should have. How many AFDs do you participate in on a regular basis? And there is no one here that who will attempt to "suppress" your argument. As long as you are not personally attacking any editors, I think you are free to have whatever opinions you do have about this project. No penalty. Liz 03:52, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Liz: The problem is that these editors who "bother to show up" don't equally represent the community. Maybe I'm wrong, but there are some people who are mainly active on AfD and who act as "gatekeepers".
A normal editor can easily not notice when a page is nominated for deletion, but the AfD regulars will come and vote "delete".
Also, I wonder how it happened that the NSKATE guidelines were changed so drastically. I think I have found a discussion about that but I am not sure. A user who was tired of people voting "keep per WP:NSPORT", proposed to get rid of the "Misplaced Pages:Notability (sports)" completely. And then there was a discussion with around 70 people attending. But for some reason at least some sports got spared the worst fate (or got out intact), while figure skating was "destroyed". Moreover, the Misplaced Pages:Notability (sports) revision history shows signs of edit warring. So it is just possible that the "deletionists" were the most active/agressive and they won. Some sports wikiprojects defended their sports, and some like WikiProject Figure skating weren't active at the time and didn't do anything. --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:50, 9 January 2025 (UTC)- Moscow Connection, I guess you can choose to call them "gatekeepers" but I consider them dedicated volunteers. The number of editors who participate in AFDs has declined for at least the past two years, so if you can think of a way to get more editors involved, or if you want to help out by spending, let's say, 10 hours a week evaluating articles and sources in AFD deletion discussions, your help would be welcomed. But don't criticize the editors who actually show up and help. Without them, we would only have the opinions of editors who nominate articles for deletion and I'm sure you wouldn't like it if all of those nominated articles were simpy deleted without any feedback at all from other editors. Liz 06:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am not an AfD regular, and what happens there scares me. When I commented, people just bombarded me with "This is not a third-party reliable source independent of the subject", and it didn't look to me like they even knew what "third-party" was. (I could swear my source was third-party and reliable and independent, but they said it was not and bombarded me with some random links to the WP space.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:50, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I had a look at the AfDs you participated in and I think I can explain why there. In this AfD all the links you provided were to sports.ru - these are not independent because sports.ru is the website for the Russian sporting body of whom the subject is a member. They thus don't demonstrate the subject has any independent coverage of their athletic career. I hope this helps. Simonm223 (talk) 14:02, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- You act like some people on AfD who dismiss sources "for the sake of dismissing". Why did even think it was a website for some "Russian sporting body of whom the subject is a member"? It is just a sports news website (a sports portal) like any other. --Moscow Connection (talk) 20:56, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- ru:Sports (сайт). Really, that's quite similar to what happens on AfD. I can go deep into Google Search, spend lots of time, but some people will just say "not third-party" or smth like this. Where do they see that and how do they come to their conclusions? It's a mystery to me. --Moscow Connection (talk) 21:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I had a look at the AfDs you participated in and I think I can explain why there. In this AfD all the links you provided were to sports.ru - these are not independent because sports.ru is the website for the Russian sporting body of whom the subject is a member. They thus don't demonstrate the subject has any independent coverage of their athletic career. I hope this helps. Simonm223 (talk) 14:02, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Liz: The problem is that these editors who "bother to show up" don't equally represent the community. Maybe I'm wrong, but there are some people who are mainly active on AfD and who act as "gatekeepers".
- (nods) Heck, "some authority" came up with canards such as that we all ought to take 10,000 steps a day, drink eight glasses of water a day, and that our basal body temps are all 98.6. I likewise decline to bow before the suspect, threadbare wisdom of "one estimate" that we need 104,000,000 articles ... speaking of serious denial. (grins) Ravenswing 07:15, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Ravenswing:, why are you trying to "repulse" my attemps to save a couple of articles at AfD? First, you came here to defend Bgsu98. And then, you came to the two nominations where I commented, only to wholesale dismiss all the sources I found.
And when I found another source, you said that there were "3 sentences" while there were actually 7.
I've looked at your contributions, you don't look like someone who can read Russian or has any interest in figure skating. So why are you doing this? (Okay, you can have the articles, you won.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:49, 9 January 2025 (UTC)- Please be careful with the WP:ASPERSIONS, Moscow Connection. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay. --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- My 2 cents. In my experience, Bgsu clearly does not conduct BEFORE searches (and seems proud of it), ignores actual coverage of the subjects (even when present in the articles), mass nominates batches of articles (50 in 30 minutes is a hilarious example), consistently fails to adhere to AGF, quickly re-nominates articles when the result is not to their liking, inaccurately summarizes examples of SIGCOV when they are provided in discussions, and tops it off by clearing their XfD logs. JTtheOG (talk) 21:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's a significant number of evidence-free aspersions you're casting, would you like to evidence them? Incidentally, mass-nominating articles isn't necessarily an issue; I have done it in the past but I still examined each article before nominating them in one batch. Black Kite (talk) 21:33, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I do not wish to dig through hundreds of AfDs, no. Just providing what I've gathered in my experience. And I disagree that 50 AfDs in half an hour is not an issue.
- Here is one example of the types of responses you can expect to get when you provide SIGCOV in one of his discussions:
Nobody is going to add anything to this article. The same people pop up on these AFD's, squawk about how someone having their picture taken for their local newspaper qualifies as "significant coverage", and then the article is left in the same crappy condition it was when we started.
JTtheOG (talk) 21:40, 9 January 2025 (UTC)- And here is an example of the nom wholly ignoring GNG and insisting on using deprecated NSPORTS guidelines after SIGCOV was added to the article. Dozens and dozens of more examples. JTtheOG (talk) 21:46, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Another example of ignoring SIGCOV already present in the article. JTtheOG (talk) 21:53, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- @GiantSnowman: @Black Kite: 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 and 7 and 8 and 9 and 10 more examples, all within a week of eachother and many with SIGCOV already present in the article. JTtheOG (talk) 21:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Here is an example from two days ago where they nominated a skater who finished top 4 at the World Championships because they assumed the sources in the article were the only sources available on the subject. JTtheOG (talk) 22:00, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- OK this AFD, coupled with the historical ones, is very concerning. I understand that not every editor is going to be able to find every source, but it appears that Bgsu98 does not even bother looking. I would support a topic ban from AFDs. GiantSnowman 22:03, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Here and here is an example of four users expressing their concerns about BEFORE searches and their misunderstanding of notability policies. More recently, concerns were raised here and here, although bgsu deleted the latter from their talk page with the message
Stay off my talk page. You have some nerve using the term “good will” considering your appalling behavior.
JTtheOG (talk) 22:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC)- And here are More and more and more and more and more and more and more examples of nom ignoring the concept of GNG and/or entirely disregarding SIGCOV already present in the article. As Liz notes here, close to 100 articles were deleted through PROD before I was able to contest them. Many of these that I contested and were later kept in AfDs with clear GNG passes are present among the examples I've given. JTtheOG (talk) 22:19, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks - anything more recent than May 2024? GiantSnowman 22:02, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Here is an example from two days ago where they nominated a skater who finished top 4 at the World Championships because they assumed the sources in the article were the only sources available on the subject. JTtheOG (talk) 22:00, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- @GiantSnowman: @Black Kite: 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 and 7 and 8 and 9 and 10 more examples, all within a week of eachother and many with SIGCOV already present in the article. JTtheOG (talk) 21:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- It would be helpful if you could provide some examples of a) a number of nominations in a short period of time and b) several AFDs where the rationale is deeply flawed. GiantSnowman 21:53, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- If you go to 10 May 2024 here, you get exactly 50 nominations in 30 minutes. A good number of those were kept per AFDstats. BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:03, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Great, thanks - see above, I think we need an AFD topic ban. GiantSnowman 22:04, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- If you go to 10 May 2024 here, you get exactly 50 nominations in 30 minutes. A good number of those were kept per AFDstats. BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:03, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Another example of ignoring SIGCOV already present in the article. JTtheOG (talk) 21:53, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- And here is an example of the nom wholly ignoring GNG and insisting on using deprecated NSPORTS guidelines after SIGCOV was added to the article. Dozens and dozens of more examples. JTtheOG (talk) 21:46, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's a significant number of evidence-free aspersions you're casting, would you like to evidence them? Incidentally, mass-nominating articles isn't necessarily an issue; I have done it in the past but I still examined each article before nominating them in one batch. Black Kite (talk) 21:33, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- My 2 cents. In my experience, Bgsu clearly does not conduct BEFORE searches (and seems proud of it), ignores actual coverage of the subjects (even when present in the articles), mass nominates batches of articles (50 in 30 minutes is a hilarious example), consistently fails to adhere to AGF, quickly re-nominates articles when the result is not to their liking, inaccurately summarizes examples of SIGCOV when they are provided in discussions, and tops it off by clearing their XfD logs. JTtheOG (talk) 21:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay. --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Well, let's start with that I'm a frequent participant at ANI, and I no more "came here to defend" anyone than any other editor who's chimed in here. I dismissed those sources wholesale because I burned some time to look over each and every one of them (as did more than one editor), and found that not a single one of them provided the "significant coverage" in detail to the subjects that the GNG requires. As it happens, I have edited skating articles in the past -- you're not claiming to have truly gone through my whole twenty-year contribution history, are you?
So why am I doing this? Perhaps it's strange to you that anyone could act out of a dispassionate wish to uphold Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, instead of out of partisan motives, but you'll find that most ANI regulars do just that. Ravenswing 21:18, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please be careful with the WP:ASPERSIONS, Moscow Connection. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Ravenswing:, why are you trying to "repulse" my attemps to save a couple of articles at AfD? First, you came here to defend Bgsu98. And then, you came to the two nominations where I commented, only to wholesale dismiss all the sources I found.
- I've participated in a lot of these AfDs, I believe mostly !voting delete, and I've gotta say I am not happy to see it implied that AfD participants were blindly going along with Bgsu. I guarantee that I perform thorough searches on every single AfD I !vote it, especially these mass-noms with essentially no rationale. Bgsu's noms are, for better or worse, fairly accurate and generally result in the deletion of articles that should be deleted. However, I have seen several examples of incivility and assuming bad faith from this user (although I have experienced neither myself) and I agree that the sheer quantity of nominations does not promote a healthy level of community input. The individual noms are generally okay, but mass noms like this one I found today, tried participating in, and gave up on can be a little overwhelming. I doubt this merits any sanctions, but maybe a ratelimit on AfD noms (20 per day?) is called for. Toadspike 22:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I did say a few days ago I wasn't going to engage in this discussion any further but since I keep getting notifications about it I figured I'd weigh in as the conversation seems to have gone in a totally different direction. As @Toadspike and others have pointed out I too am not happy that it is being implied that people who voted in these AFDs are blindly following @Bgsu98 without doing any independent research. I refuted this on the figure skating talk page when this all started and on this page. Also, as has been previously pointed out by other editors, this particular discussion began with @Moscow Connection basically not liking the rules on significant coverage and then coming to this forum to seek retribution against @Bgsu98. Now it seems that their improper use of this forum, ref bombing of articles and general complaining that they don't like something and how unfair it is in their opinion, may actually lead to them getting what they want. This sets a very poor precedent that if you don't like something on Misplaced Pages and you jump up and down and wail about it enough you can get your way. Yes @Bgsu98 probably nominates too many similar articles at one time but they have agreed to slow down now, and yes they have nominated articles for AFD that have then been kept because significant coverage was found, but they have also nominated a lot of articles which have not been found to have significant coverage and have subsequently been deleted following the due, consensus based procedure and closed as such by an admin. @Moscow Connection is already seeking to have articles which have been deleted following AFDs unilaterally reopened. If you now sanction @Bgsu98 we may as well just give Jimmy Wales a call and ask him to hand over Misplaced Pages to the whims and wants of @Moscow Connection Shrug02 (talk) 23:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I haven't asked anybody to give Misplaced Pages over to me. What do you mean by "unilaterally reopened"? If you are refering to me asking Star Mississippi to undelete the "Lilia Biktagirova" article, what's wrong with it? It was deleted without a proper Google search, and I have found some sources for her. Just look at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lilia Biktagirova. At the very end, a user that goes by the name of Kvng, noticed:
No one in this discussion (including myself) has mentioned anything about searching for coverage that may satisfy WP:GNG
, but that was all, no one did anything. You and another user seem to have claimed here that you do a proper search on every Bgsu98's nomination, but I don't see you on that AfD page.
You really sound like you think I'm doing something awful in my attempt to rescue an article. Come on, she's not someone terrible who wants to promote herself on Misplaced Pages or something. She's just a fairly famous figure skater. You don't need to defend Misplaced Pages from her. --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC) - I've decided to save "Alexandra Ievleva" (Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Alexandra Ievleva) and I've already found a couple of dozen articles talking about her. Yes, maybe the others will say those are mostly interviews and the Women's Sport website is not good enough, but I have found lots and lots about her! I don't think you or Bgsu98 would be able to do that cause you don't read Russian and don't know how to search (I tried to add different additional key words, and every time I found something new). --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- 1 you don't know if I read Russian, Chinese, Martian or what, 2 now you say I "don't know how to search" which is yet another unfounded suggestion that I don't make any effort before giving opinions on AFDs, 3 you don't know what searches were done on Lilia Biktagirova and neither do I, 4 I wasn't involved in that discussion and I try to focus more on adding to articles then deleting them, 5 my point was, and is, you don't like the rules so you have launched a campaign of complaining to try to get your way instead of going through the proper channels and seeking to get consensus to alter said rules. Frankly I'm tired of this and of you belittling everyone else as if you are the only person who knows what is right and are somehow able to read the minds and intentions of everyone else. Go ahead and, as you put it, "save" your Russian skaters. I genuinely hope you do and that the articles are filled with interesting and well-sourced information. That's the aim of Misplaced Pages to inform the population about things worth knowing. Shrug02 (talk) 00:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- "
You don't know if I read Russian, Chinese, Martian or what
"
— What I do is called abductive reasoning. What you just did by claiming you can read Martian, I honestly don't know.
I've started this discussion because I saw the user's 45 nominations at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Skating and that scared me a lot. --Moscow Connection (talk) 01:00, 10 January 2025 (UTC)- It's called ironic humour and, with everything going on in the world right now, if a Misplaced Pages AFD scared you a lot then you are obviously in the very fortunate position to have so few worries. Anyway I'm moving on to spend my time more productively. I sincerely wish you the best in your endeavours. Shrug02 (talk) 01:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- "
- 1 you don't know if I read Russian, Chinese, Martian or what, 2 now you say I "don't know how to search" which is yet another unfounded suggestion that I don't make any effort before giving opinions on AFDs, 3 you don't know what searches were done on Lilia Biktagirova and neither do I, 4 I wasn't involved in that discussion and I try to focus more on adding to articles then deleting them, 5 my point was, and is, you don't like the rules so you have launched a campaign of complaining to try to get your way instead of going through the proper channels and seeking to get consensus to alter said rules. Frankly I'm tired of this and of you belittling everyone else as if you are the only person who knows what is right and are somehow able to read the minds and intentions of everyone else. Go ahead and, as you put it, "save" your Russian skaters. I genuinely hope you do and that the articles are filled with interesting and well-sourced information. That's the aim of Misplaced Pages to inform the population about things worth knowing. Shrug02 (talk) 00:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I haven't asked anybody to give Misplaced Pages over to me. What do you mean by "unilaterally reopened"? If you are refering to me asking Star Mississippi to undelete the "Lilia Biktagirova" article, what's wrong with it? It was deleted without a proper Google search, and I have found some sources for her. Just look at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lilia Biktagirova. At the very end, a user that goes by the name of Kvng, noticed:
- I appreciate your input and insight. As I told BeanieFan11 earlier, I promised to slow down on nominations, and in fact, I had decided that I wouldn't even entertain the idea of additional nominations until the ones already in the system work their way through.
I can also promise to strive to be more thorough in researching these potential nominations and provide more detailed rationales in the future. I am also fine with any limitations that the community requests in terms of numbers of nominations. Twenty per day seems awfully high; I was thinking more like two! Bgsu98 (Talk) 23:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)- Sorry, Bgsu, I completely missed that you had committed to slowing down. I think that's a great idea that resolves the issue here. Just remember, when you get frustrated by other editors, do your best to stay polite – if you can't, simply step away from the keyboard for a moment. I don't want to see you get in trouble for one too many snarky comments. Toadspike 09:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- 20 nominations per day is 7300 per year. The limit should be more like 0. (And if it is decided to be 1 or something like that, Bgsu98 will have to demonstrate that he has searched for sources every time. I prefer 0, naturally.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:16, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- A limit of 0 is asinine, and I highly suggest you strike this comment. — The Hand That Feeds You: 18:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah, agreed - really not helping move away from the comments above the MC is here because they don't like AFD. GiantSnowman 18:57, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- A limit of 0 is asinine, and I highly suggest you strike this comment. — The Hand That Feeds You: 18:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- While I do not know whether @Bgsu98 should be restricted from AfD as I haven't been able to go into the weeds on this, I disagree with
I doubt this merits any sanctions, but maybe a ratelimit on AfD noms (20 per day?) is called for.
@Toadspike. No editor should be nominating 20 articles per day. That's unsustainable for AfD participants, clerks or closers. We do not have the editor volume to assess that many nominations from one nominator. Star Mississippi 00:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)- 20 per day is a lot, but given the numbers thrown around above (50 in 30 minutes) I figured it would be a massive improvement. But since Bgsu has committed to nominating far fewer articles with
Twenty per day seems awfully high; I was thinking more like two!
I suppose the whole discussion is moot. Toadspike 11:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)- I don't think it's that easy. The question is who will check all the hundreds or thousands of his previous nominations. Definitely not me. (I've looked through several active ones, found some sources, commented here and there, and got very tired.)
As I have commented below, when problems were found with Sander.v.Ginkel's articles, he was told to go through all his articles and check them. (Actually, there was a user who volunteered to help, but that user was revealed to be Sander.v.Ginkel himself, cause no one in their right mind would have volunteered to check 40000 articles. I, personally, don't want to be a slave and don't want to check Bgsu98's past nominations, especially knowing how little effort he put into creating them and that I would have to spend years looking for sources.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 11:29, 10 January 2025 (UTC)- It's a volunteer project. Someone may choose to, as you did initially, or no one will. But unless they're salted, there's nothing prohibiting restoration to drafts if WP:SIRS can be found. We can fix going forward but can't always fix what happened before even when there's a collaborative effort. Star Mississippi 13:40, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think it's that easy. The question is who will check all the hundreds or thousands of his previous nominations. Definitely not me. (I've looked through several active ones, found some sources, commented here and there, and got very tired.)
- 20 per day is a lot, but given the numbers thrown around above (50 in 30 minutes) I figured it would be a massive improvement. But since Bgsu has committed to nominating far fewer articles with
- I did say a few days ago I wasn't going to engage in this discussion any further but since I keep getting notifications about it I figured I'd weigh in as the conversation seems to have gone in a totally different direction. As @Toadspike and others have pointed out I too am not happy that it is being implied that people who voted in these AFDs are blindly following @Bgsu98 without doing any independent research. I refuted this on the figure skating talk page when this all started and on this page. Also, as has been previously pointed out by other editors, this particular discussion began with @Moscow Connection basically not liking the rules on significant coverage and then coming to this forum to seek retribution against @Bgsu98. Now it seems that their improper use of this forum, ref bombing of articles and general complaining that they don't like something and how unfair it is in their opinion, may actually lead to them getting what they want. This sets a very poor precedent that if you don't like something on Misplaced Pages and you jump up and down and wail about it enough you can get your way. Yes @Bgsu98 probably nominates too many similar articles at one time but they have agreed to slow down now, and yes they have nominated articles for AFD that have then been kept because significant coverage was found, but they have also nominated a lot of articles which have not been found to have significant coverage and have subsequently been deleted following the due, consensus based procedure and closed as such by an admin. @Moscow Connection is already seeking to have articles which have been deleted following AFDs unilaterally reopened. If you now sanction @Bgsu98 we may as well just give Jimmy Wales a call and ask him to hand over Misplaced Pages to the whims and wants of @Moscow Connection Shrug02 (talk) 23:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Of note. User JTtheOG is canvassing apparent like-minded editors to this discussion, here and here. Zaathras (talk) 23:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- They are not like-minded actually. In fact, both had previously expressed they disagreed with my initial assertions, which I had not yet provided evidence for. I was notifying them of examples being provided here of previously unsubstantiated aspersions. JTtheOG (talk) 23:44, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- "As per previous discussions..." I love hearing that JTtheOG is having discussions about me with other users, but has never once attempted to communicate directly to me. (Snide comments in AFD's don't count as broaching conversation.) Bgsu98 (Talk) 00:11, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- If even that's true, no none came. (No one of the whole two.) And Bgsu98 did the same by pinging his like-minded AfD colleague. (He pinged him immediately.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:21, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- They are not like-minded actually. In fact, both had previously expressed they disagreed with my initial assertions, which I had not yet provided evidence for. I was notifying them of examples being provided here of previously unsubstantiated aspersions. JTtheOG (talk) 23:44, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- As a fellow WP:FIGURE participant, and without having gone over the particular cases, I am normally a rather deletion-oriented editor but am an inclusionist for skating specifically as sources are not as online on this topic as usual, and often in foreign languages, so I am not usually in favor of deleting a skater's article unless we really do exhaust all possible sources of notability. I do request that @Bgsu98: convene a broader discussion over notability as I also do disagree with the current guidelines, but even without that a discussion is warranted. Even if a mass deletion is warranted, it should be handled in one mass AfD, not a gazillion separate ones.--Jasper Deng (talk) 01:11, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I came across this randomly in my watchlist.. can I recommend everyone take a step back and focus on the issue at hand? Currently, WP:BEFORE states the following:
Search for additional sources, if the main concern is notability: The minimum search expected is a normal Google search, a Google Books search, a Google News search, and a Google News archive search; Google Scholar is suggested for academic subjects.
So, I'd ask @Moscow Connection: to please consider whether their views on BEFORE are in line with what it actually says. I appreciate that MC states many of these nominated articles are for non-English speaking and in some cases non-Western world skaters, and so it may not be possible to find many of the potential sources in an English language Google search.But MC, can you identify any deletion nominations for which there were sources that could be found in any of the following: a normal Google search, or a Google Books search, or a Google News search, or a Google News archive search? If you can identify such, please provide the deletion discussion, and a link or other method of showing us how you came across the sources on one of those searches. If you can't, then it sounds like your argument is more for expanding WP:BEFORE to require non-English language searches for non-English subjects. I take no strong view on whether it would be a good idea - I think that BEFORE should certainly recommend more far reaching searches for subjects who may not be satisfied by a Google search.. but required? Not everyone knows how to use other search engines, and they may not even know what terms to use (or be able to type them easily). And that doesn't even begin to touch the big problem with Google - Google results (if you're logged in, at least), are significantly based on your search history, and if you use Google Chrome browser (on mobile or PC), or the Android OS, they are also based on your usage of those platforms (such as websites visited, apps used, etc). So it's entirely possible that MC searching Google may see a result on the first page or two that someone else searching Google would not have seen on the first couple pages at all.Regardless, that's an argument/discussion to be had on another page (likely WP:VPP). Since this all seems to be a misconstruing of BEFORE by MC, and assuming everyone involved tones down the rhetoric, I'd recommend this move towards a reminder to MC that BEFORE, as it stands now, does not require anything beyond a Google (and Google News and Google Books) to be searched, and until that changes, the mere fact sources exist on other search engines does not constitute a violation of BEFORE unless there is evidence they would've been found through those search means. And I recommend that MC (or anyone, really) starts a discussion at the appropriate place if they think changes to BEFORE are necessary. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 01:20, 10 January 2025 (UTC)- I read this and tried to search some names from AfD on Google Books. A search for Nicole Nönnig's name definitely returns something non-trivial: ("Nicole Nönnig kehrte allerdings nach kurzer Pause zurück . Mit Matthias Bleyer bildete sie ein Paar , das 2003 sogar internationale Wettbewerbe bestritt . Die Schlittschuhe haben Nicole und Matthias inzwischen jedoch an den Nagel ..."). --Moscow Connection (talk) 01:36, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'll leave this to others to discuss, but this is the type of "evidence" you would be expected to produce to show that the user did not comply with BEFORE. That said, one instance of mention in a book does not meet WP:GNG, so unless you can show that there are multiple instances of significant coverage in reliable sources that would've been found on a BEFORE, then it still doesn't mean that the user did not do a valid BEFORE. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 01:41, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Here's a link to the book: . (I've tried and tried, but I don't know how to add "bks" to the Google Books search URL.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 01:45, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- A search for "李宣潼" on Google News returned this article: and a couple more. The one I linked looks very solid, it is a full-fledged biography. (The AfD discussion is here: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Li Xuantong. As usual, the rationale is:
Non-notable figure skater; no senior-level medal placements.
) --Moscow Connection (talk) 02:13, 10 January 2025 (UTC) - And one more article → about Li Xuantong and her partner Wang Xinkang (also nominated for deletion by Bgsu98). It's like a print magazine article + interview, looks "massive". --Moscow Connection (talk) 02:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Another example: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Kim Yu-jae.
A simple Google News search for "김유재 2009" returns a lot. I didn't look too far, but I found two lengthy articles about her and her twin sister on the first page (, ) and voted "keep".
(I would also note that there are already some AfD regulars present in that discussion. But no one has googled her name.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 03:59, 10 January 2025 (UTC) - OMG, Bgsu98 nominated her sister for deletion, too: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Kim Yu-seong. He nominated her on January 1, and no one has commented since. (Okay, I'll vote now and save her.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 04:03, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- You do realize there’s a difference between an article about a person and the person themselves? You’re not saving anyone here. You are a volunteer Misplaced Pages editor, not a volunteer firefighter. HyperAccelerated (talk) 06:21, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- @HyperAccelerated: Did it sound strange or silly? Sure, I understand the difference. But people do say "article's notability" when it's actually "the notability of an article's subject". I thought that an article and its subject are interchangeable in colloquial wikispeech. --Moscow Connection (talk) 06:29, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- You do realize there’s a difference between an article about a person and the person themselves? You’re not saving anyone here. You are a volunteer Misplaced Pages editor, not a volunteer firefighter. HyperAccelerated (talk) 06:21, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'll leave this to others to discuss, but this is the type of "evidence" you would be expected to produce to show that the user did not comply with BEFORE. That said, one instance of mention in a book does not meet WP:GNG, so unless you can show that there are multiple instances of significant coverage in reliable sources that would've been found on a BEFORE, then it still doesn't mean that the user did not do a valid BEFORE. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 01:41, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I read this and tried to search some names from AfD on Google Books. A search for Nicole Nönnig's name definitely returns something non-trivial: ("Nicole Nönnig kehrte allerdings nach kurzer Pause zurück . Mit Matthias Bleyer bildete sie ein Paar , das 2003 sogar internationale Wettbewerbe bestritt . Die Schlittschuhe haben Nicole und Matthias inzwischen jedoch an den Nagel ..."). --Moscow Connection (talk) 01:36, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I know the entire thing is a bit of a long read, but I would like to note that Bgsu98's tendency to make XFDs without any regard for GNG/BASIC - even for those where GNG/BASIC is met (1, 2, 3) - dates back to May 2022. In fact, last year I issued a warning on their talk page (which they then deleted) that this issue was creating more work for editors, but this is still continuing as of late. There seems to be an IDHT issue with WP:NOTBURO. ミラP@Miraclepine 02:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Alright, trying to defuse the situation more. @Bgsu98: It appears that MC has been able to provide at least two examples for which there are multiple examples of potentially significant coverage in reliable sources independent of the subject. And another user has identified at least 3 other AfDs in which sources were quickly found by other users. Yes, some of them (such as MC's examples) were found by Google searching the non-Latin alphabet version of the subject's name, but nothing in BEFORE suggests that searching only the subject's Latin name is appropriate. And it appears that these sources are all found with a quick Google search of the subject's name in the non-Latin script. Can you explain why you did not find these sources, or why, if you did find these sources, you did not identify them at the AfD discussion and/or did not consider them sufficient for GNG? -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 04:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- What do you think of the limitations on nominating articles that User:Bgsu98 already stated they were willing to adopt? It's higher up in this discussion. Liz 05:17, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I spent a good 30-45 minutes reading this discussion before I made my first comment attempting to defuse this. I do not think that a voluntary restriction is going to be a good thing here, unless it is given the enforceability that a consensus here can give. I initially was concerned that EC was making this report with a poor understanding of BEFORE. But given that EC (and another editor) has/have now provided multiple examples of Google searches that show, at least at first glance, one or more sources that meet GNG for their related articles, I think there is ample evidence that Bgsu98 is violating BEFORE. I don't particularly care why they're violating BEFORE, but I would support waiting for their explanation regardless.If Bgsu98 is unable to provide any legitimate explanation for the at least 3 cases that have been identified now as having clear sources in the searches required by BEFORE, I would support a restriction on nominating articles for deletion in any way (PROD or AfD, or otherwise) since they cannot be trusted to follow BEFORE before they do so.All of that said, I think this should be moved to a subsection - starting with EC and Miraclepine's reports of specific cases. I stepped in as what you may call an inclusionist, thinking I'd be in support of sanctions immediately, but this is a complicated situation, and to be blunt, everything above my comment seems to have led nowhere. At the same time, I support giving Bgsu98 a chance to respond explaining why their BEFORE search was sufficient, before any sanctions are issued. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 05:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've provided some 20 examples as well. JTtheOG (talk) 05:36, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would say: "Not before Bgsu98 goes through all his previous nominations and his PRODs and searches for sources for them." He probably deleted (okay, "nominated") hundreds of pages, he did enough damage and now should work on fixing it. --Moscow Connection (talk) 05:43, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's not too helpful right now, man. No one can be forced to do anything. JTtheOG (talk) 07:38, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't propose to force anyone. But I have just came across a Sander.v.Ginkel unblock request and remembered how he was told to go through all the articles he had created and check/fix them before creating more. We have a similar situation here, I think. --Moscow Connection (talk) 07:45, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Articles that should not have been deleted have been kept by consensus at AfD. This is how AfD works. They are in the exact same state that they were before they were nominated, perhaps even better by WP: HEY. No “damage” has occurred. Additionally, if you think an article has been deleted when it shouldn’t, it is your responsibility to bring your concerns to DRV. This does not change just because you made a thread at ANI. You do not get to pick and choose which policies apply to whom. HyperAccelerated (talk) 18:12, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Bgsu has already agreed to limit their nominations to a couple a day. This is a far stricter constraint than what could have probably been reached by consensus. What more do you want? For reasons I don’t understand, your response to this is “the limit should be more like 0” without any grounding in policy. As I see it, Bgsu is plainly negotiating in good faith, while your behavior is bordering on bullying. HyperAccelerated (talk) 18:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- @HyperAccelerated has hit the nail on the head. This discussion should have been tossed immediately or at least closed down well before now. The early responses were that this was a content dispute not appropriate for ANI then the OP kept going with rapid fire posts and a few editors who appear to have a pre-existing axe to grind with @Bgsu98 revved it up into what it has become. As a side note it will be very interesting to see how the outstanding AFDs are adjudicated and by whom. Shrug02 (talk) 18:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't propose to force anyone. But I have just came across a Sander.v.Ginkel unblock request and remembered how he was told to go through all the articles he had created and check/fix them before creating more. We have a similar situation here, I think. --Moscow Connection (talk) 07:45, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's not too helpful right now, man. No one can be forced to do anything. JTtheOG (talk) 07:38, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I spent a good 30-45 minutes reading this discussion before I made my first comment attempting to defuse this. I do not think that a voluntary restriction is going to be a good thing here, unless it is given the enforceability that a consensus here can give. I initially was concerned that EC was making this report with a poor understanding of BEFORE. But given that EC (and another editor) has/have now provided multiple examples of Google searches that show, at least at first glance, one or more sources that meet GNG for their related articles, I think there is ample evidence that Bgsu98 is violating BEFORE. I don't particularly care why they're violating BEFORE, but I would support waiting for their explanation regardless.If Bgsu98 is unable to provide any legitimate explanation for the at least 3 cases that have been identified now as having clear sources in the searches required by BEFORE, I would support a restriction on nominating articles for deletion in any way (PROD or AfD, or otherwise) since they cannot be trusted to follow BEFORE before they do so.All of that said, I think this should be moved to a subsection - starting with EC and Miraclepine's reports of specific cases. I stepped in as what you may call an inclusionist, thinking I'd be in support of sanctions immediately, but this is a complicated situation, and to be blunt, everything above my comment seems to have led nowhere. At the same time, I support giving Bgsu98 a chance to respond explaining why their BEFORE search was sufficient, before any sanctions are issued. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 05:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- What do you think of the limitations on nominating articles that User:Bgsu98 already stated they were willing to adopt? It's higher up in this discussion. Liz 05:17, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose any sanctions to Bgsu98. I did a spot-check of some of the more contentious AfDs and, honestly, the keep !votes did not provide a compelling argument to keep in any of those cases. As I mentioned to Moscow Connection above, for example, they provided six links to one of the subjects - and every single link was in the sports.ru domain which is not independent and does not establish notability for a Russian athlete. It's very unfortunate that so many editors here have expressed either distain for or fear of the AfD process, which is integral to the quality of this project and which I would heartily encourage more editors to participate in. And I can assure those people with misconceptions that many AfDs conclude with an article being kept or with no consensus - which is a de-facto keep. The sum of all human knowledge is a lofty goal. But one philosophical point I would ask extreme inclusionists to consider is that there is a difference between knowledge and data. AfD is a process whereby we distinguish between knowledge and data according to criteria - imperfect criteria surely but criteria - which we agreed to as participants in this project. We shouldn't be punishing a person for efficiently doing a hard job just because it's one that has a side-effect of upsetting people. Simonm223 (talk) 19:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- In case it was not already clear I too Oppose sanctions against @Bgsu98. They should be given the chance to prove they will stick to their pledge to slow down on AFD nominations. Also sanctioning them will set a precedent for others who are unhappy with AFD proceeses and outcomes to seek similar sanctions against other nominators and could well have the effect of putting many people off participating in the process for fear of retribution when in fact it would be better if more people took part. Shrug02 (talk) 20:12, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Whereas I support some kind of restriction on the number of AFDs they can start per day. GiantSnowman 20:16, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I offered up self-imposed restrictions above, including the caveat that there would be no further skating nominations until the ones currently in the system work their way through. According to my log, my last nomination was January 7th. As more contentious AFD's can sometimes take up to a month to process, that should allow for sufficient time. Bgsu98 (Talk) 20:33, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- To be fair, your log is regularly cleared, including your most recent nomination. JTtheOG (talk) 20:58, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Once an AFD is settled, I remove it. What's the problem? The log shows active AFD's only. Bgsu98 (Talk) 21:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- To be fair, your log is regularly cleared, including your most recent nomination. JTtheOG (talk) 20:58, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I offered up self-imposed restrictions above, including the caveat that there would be no further skating nominations until the ones currently in the system work their way through. According to my log, my last nomination was January 7th. As more contentious AFD's can sometimes take up to a month to process, that should allow for sufficient time. Bgsu98 (Talk) 20:33, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Whereas I support some kind of restriction on the number of AFDs they can start per day. GiantSnowman 20:16, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- In case it was not already clear I too Oppose sanctions against @Bgsu98. They should be given the chance to prove they will stick to their pledge to slow down on AFD nominations. Also sanctioning them will set a precedent for others who are unhappy with AFD proceeses and outcomes to seek similar sanctions against other nominators and could well have the effect of putting many people off participating in the process for fear of retribution when in fact it would be better if more people took part. Shrug02 (talk) 20:12, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- How about Bgsu98 just agrees to not nominate more than, I don't know, two articles per day (based on their comment
I am also fine with any limitations that the community requests in terms of numbers of nominations. Twenty per day seems awfully high; I was thinking more like two!
) and we end the discussion? BeanieFan11 (talk) 21:02, 10 January 2025 (UTC)- @BeanieFan11 I second this proposal. Shrug02 (talk) 21:20, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- We should definitely end it. I'm not an admin but that seems more than fair. JTtheOG (talk) 21:46, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Two a day is fine by me. GiantSnowman 22:15, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- We should definitely end it. I'm not an admin but that seems more than fair. JTtheOG (talk) 21:46, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think there should be a requirement for him to show some sources he has found. (In every nomination. If there aren't any, then a link to a Google search query can suffice.)
Cause I've seen him lately on some figure skater articles in my watchlist, and I don't see him adding any references ever. It looks like his edits are purely technical. (As well as his nominations.) He doesn't really add to the encyclopedic content, just updates scores and changes the table formatting. (And nominates for deletion.)
Does he ever search the net? That's the question. Has it happened even once that he wanted to delete an article and then found a source for it, added the source and went away? --Moscow Connection (talk) 21:29, 10 January 2025 (UTC)- Wow. Mister "I would also like to note that I am polite" is again denigrating others' work, as if adding scores and formatting tables to meet Misplaced Pages's MOS is unimportant. "He doesn't really add to the encyclopedic content." Yep, very polite. Bgsu98 (Talk) 22:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- And, as I've said, one should also search in the skater's native language. And for Russian figure skaters, Google doesn't work, you need Yandex. (And Yandex is not good as a search engine, some effort is needed to find anything. The major sports websites have profiles for everyone, you need to find the needed profile and go from there. It sounds too complicated, but that's how it is.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 21:30, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also, he doesn't appear to know how to use the Internet Archive. The Matthias Bleyer article had a good reference, I found it in the archive. His nomination (Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Matthias Bleyer) doesn't mention the reference, like if it doesn't exist. Maybe he didn't even look at the references section. --Moscow Connection (talk) 22:10, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- What I mean is that he should be required to show some sources he has found and to explain why these sources do not suffice. (After all, if he nominates an article, then obviously he doesn't find the coverage sufficient.)
There's always something. (Almost always.) But since he nominates mostly skaters who have finished their careers, the number of potential sources (news articles) found on the internet shouldn't be big. There are usually just a few. --Moscow Connection (talk) 22:10, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- @BeanieFan11 I second this proposal. Shrug02 (talk) 21:20, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Smm380 and logged out editing
- Smm380 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- 195.238.112.0/20 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · block user · block log)
I have warned this editor twice about logged out editing because they are evidently editing the article history of Ukraine both logged in and as an IP. This makes tracking their edits more difficult since they have made hundreds altogether in recent months (and they are only focused on this specific article). The IP edits seem to come from 195.238.112.0/20 (at least most of them) and they are often made shortly before/after Smm380 decides to log back in. See for example this edit by Smm380 and this edit by the IP a few minutes later regarding the same section. This is now especially a problem because they are deciding to make reverts as an IP.
In general, they have not listened to prior warnings. I have given them multiple warnings about adding unsourced text, but they are still continuing to add unsourced text without including citations first. But they have not responded to any of my warnings or explained why they are still doing this. Mellk (talk) 09:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I noticed the concerns raised regarding edits made both from my account and an IP address, and I’d like to clarify that this was neither intentional nor malicious. I simply forgot to log into my account while making those edits.
- I apologize if this caused any confusion. My sole intention was to improve content related to Ukrainian history, a topic I am deeply passionate about.
- Regarding the delayed response to your messages, I sincerely apologize. I hadn’t noticed the notifications until recently, as I was unfamiliar with how Misplaced Pages’s messaging system works. Now that I understand it better, I’ll ensure to respond more promptly in the future.
- I truly appreciate the valuable work you do to maintain the quality and reliability of Misplaced Pages. I will make sure to contribute responsibly and stay logged in during my future edits. Smm380 (talk) 16:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Another not here IP
Blocked. - The Bushranger One ping only 03:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
2601:18C:8183:D410:1D8C:39C9:DCEE:1166 (talk · contribs) is altering another users posts to insert political commentary ] as well as making PA's, with a clear statement they do not intend to stop ], and edit warring over it as well. Slatersteven (talk) 14:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Now past 3rr reinsertion of their alteration of another users post. So its now vandalism. Slatersteven (talk) 14:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
As well as this tit for tat report ]. Slatersteven (talk) 14:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- IP blocked for edit warring. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Heritage Foundation planning to doxx editors
Closing to prevent a split discussion. The most central discussion about this is currently held at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Heritage Foundation intending to "identify and target" editors. —Alalch E. 22:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
See current discussion on Heritage Foundation talkpage. Various sources are beginning to report on this, see , . It seems they plan to “identify and target Misplaced Pages editors abusing their position by analyzing text patterns, usernames, and technical data through data breach analysis, fingerprinting, HUMINT, and technical targeting,” and “engage curated sock puppet accounts to reveal patterns and provoke reactions, information disclosure,” and “push specific topics to expose more identity-related details.” An IP user on the discussion page says "they intend to add malicious links (sources) that will set cookies, grab your IP, and get tracking going for your device. This has likely already started. Be careful, there are lots of ways to hide where a link goes." Photos of Japan (talk) 17:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think there's a far more productive discussion going on at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Heritage Foundation intending to "identify and target" editors. BusterD (talk) 17:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- A friendly reminder: It's always a good time to review the strength and age of account passwords, plus consider two-factor verification. The world is constantly changing... BusterD (talk) 17:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Isn't doxing a federal/punishable offense in ten states (more or less), including DC? If they grab the information of or out a minor, that can easily be taken on as a form of harassment and won't end well. EF 17:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- No doubt the Trump adminstration will make pursuing such cases a high priority. EEng 22:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm unsure why this isn't a WMF issue, due to potential legal and safeguarding issues. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- The WMF has been made aware. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 19:56, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Truffle457
Editor blocked indefinitely. Liz 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Truffle457 (talk · contribs)
"Murad I the ruler of the Ottoman Turks seems to have been a blasphemous person"
I don't even know what to call this. This user has few edits but most are like this. Beshogur (talk) 22:15, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is a new user with only a single level I notice on their page. I've issued a level II caution for using talk pages as a forum and added a welcome template. If this persists, stronger measures may be needed. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Beshogur, I'd advise talking with an editor, through words, not templates, before filing a complaint at ANI. That's a general recommendation unless there is active vandalism going on. Liz 22:53, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- His comments are disturbing tbh. Beshogur (talk) 22:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- The user's response to Ad Orientem's warning demonstrates that they have no insight into their misconduct and are WP:NOTHERE.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Indeffed per WP:CIR. -Ad Orientem (talk) 23:48, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Well, by having a conversation, you discerned that CIR applied. Some communication, I think, is better than silence at least when you are trying to make sense of an unclear situation. Liz 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
YZ357980, second complaint
I have again reverted YZ357980's insertion of an image of dubious copyright; change of Somali Armed Forces native-name to an incorrect format; and violation of MOS:INFOBOXFLAG at Somali Armed Forces - see ] which had another editor fix the incorrect file format. I believe this editor is WP:NOTHERE and not willing to communicate and I would request administrator attention to this matter. Kind regards Buckshot06 (talk) 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- For the record, that image has been on Commons since 2015 and was made by a different user. That said, YZ357980 continues to make these borderline disruptive edits and has never posted on an article talk page or a user talk page. I've pblocked them from articlespace until communication improves, as it is not optional. - The Bushranger One ping only 07:51, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- 1. Thankyou!! Much appreciated!!
- 2. Yes I was aware of the status of those images, but I repeatedly told YZ357980 that it was of borderline copyright and WP had to follow US copyright law. I have managed to get the equivalent Iraqi ones deleted; I will go after the Somali ones to try to get them deleted.
- 3. Someone (an anon IP) posted on his talkapage as if replying, see . Please feel free to reconsider your actions should you wish, but I continue to believe YZ357980 is NOTHERE. Buckshot06 (talk) 18:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Given this which is clearly YZ not logged in, the block has been changed to full indef. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:01, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
My reverted edit at List of Famicom Disk System games
At worst, this deserves a {{minnow}}. This is, at heart, a content dispute, and Talk:List of Famicom Disk System games is the place to discuss it. - The Bushranger One ping only 07:44, 9 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hi
I added {{clear}} to the top of table of List of Famicom Disk System games to make the table use the whole horizontal space. I did it according to other list of video games articles and reception section of some video games articles to help the table list look better or not reception table to conflict with references (double column references more specifically).
However @NakhlaMan: reverted my edit and with a rude language called it "UGLIER" and calls it waste of too much space.
With my edit, it adds just a small space to the top of list heading but the table could be read easier and uses the whole available space. Shkuru Afshar (talk) 04:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think this is the right place for this. Yes, the user could have been much nicer on their opinion, but this is too much of an escalation, too fast. I would advise commenting on their talk page, or on the page talk page. Cheers, Heart 04:18, 9 January 2025 (UTC) (Non-administrator comment)
- Yes, their edit summary was mildly rude, but this is not actionable, please open a discussion on the article's talk page. Isaidnoway (talk) 04:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
Edit War in Korean clans of foreign origin
Ger2024 blocked as a sock.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User: Ger2024
Ger2024 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Ger2024 has been Misplaced Pages:Edit warring and violated WP:3RR (they have as of now made five reverts) and possibly WP:NPOV despite my direct requests asking them to not engage in an edit war and to instead discuss with me and @CountHacker on the Talk Page. While they did respond to my efforts to try to talk to them on the Talk Page, they immediately then reverted my edits after they made their comments. The initial edits started when another Misplaced Pages user was verifying and deleting some info on the page (likely for factual accuracy) when the reverts began.
In regards to WP:NPOV, there is a POV push, despite the multiple corrections both I and @CountHacker have issued. We notified the user that the same source they are using from is generally considered historically unreliable because it is a collection of folklore and legends (the source, while a valuable insight into Korean folklore, claims that the founder of the Korean kingdom of Silla was born from a literal Golden Egg, so cannot be taken to be factual because humans cannot be born from Golden Eggs).
Despite trying to talk to them, they are just ignoring my and CountHackers actual points, and we even had more discussion but they just made their fifth revert.
- This report belongs at WP:ANEW. Heart 05:39, 9 January 2025 (UTC) (Non-administrator comment)
- Who posted this complaint, they didn't leave a signature which, to me, shows a lack of experience. They also didn't leave any diffs so it's impossible to judge if there were indeed reverts. And as HeartGlow states, this is more suitable for ANEW which focuses on edit-warring. Liz 08:05, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Unclear if genuine question or rhetorical, but in case it's the former, it seems to be User:Sunnyediting99. (They have over 1000 edits and have been editing since 2022, but it appears they may be used to using the Reply tool, which might explain why they didn't think to ~~~~ since replying in that manner does that automatically? I think? ...Not trying to excuse it so much as I'm trying to understand it.) - Purplewowies (talk) 08:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry about that, I was a bit sleep deprived when I made, I'll go to WP:ANEW.
- And yea im way too used to the reply tool, i think i make these posts like once perhaps every few months so i got a bit rusty on this. Thanks! Sunnyediting99 (talk) 13:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Unclear if genuine question or rhetorical, but in case it's the former, it seems to be User:Sunnyediting99. (They have over 1000 edits and have been editing since 2022, but it appears they may be used to using the Reply tool, which might explain why they didn't think to ~~~~ since replying in that manner does that automatically? I think? ...Not trying to excuse it so much as I'm trying to understand it.) - Purplewowies (talk) 08:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
Subtle vandalism by 8.40.247.4
Excellent report results in a two-year block. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:57, 9 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- 8.40.247.4 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Since early 2020, User:8.40.247.4 has consistently and subtly made edits that:
- minimize achievements and contributions of black people in American society
- obscure or soften wording about right-wing and far-right leanings of conservative figures
- promote fringe, racist, or pseudo-scientific theories
The IP generally attempts to disguise the edits by lying about changes made in the edit summary. Here is a list of problem edits in chronological order:
| Date | Page | Issue |
|---|---|---|
| Mar 4, 2020 | McComb, Mississippi (diff) |
|
| May 31, 2020 | John Derbyshire (diff) |
|
| Jul 21, 2020 | Richard Hayne (diff) |
|
| Jul 28, 2020 | Louie Gohmert (diff) |
|
| Sep 24, 2020 | Back-to-Africa movement (diff) |
|
| Jan 14, 2021 | Virginia Dare (diff) |
|
| Apr 28, 2021 | Bret Stephens (diff) |
|
| June 25, 2021 | John Gabriel Stedman (diff) |
|
| Oct 7, 2021 | Appalachian music (diff) |
|
| Nov 27, 2021 | Steve Sailer (diff) |
|
| Jan 26, 2022 | Mongoloid (diff) |
|
| Jul 6, 2022 | Indian Mills, New Jersey (diff) |
|
| Feb 20, 2023 | Myth of meritocracy (diff) |
|
| Mar 26, 2023 | Millford Plantation (diff) |
|
| Jun 17, 2023 | John Birch Society (diff) |
|
| Jan 9, 2025 | Robert Gould Shaw (diff) |
|
| Jan 9, 2025 | Virginia Dare (diff) |
|
The IP doesn't make enough edits at a time for vandalism warnings to rise to level 4, and thus has never been blocked (which is why I'm reporting this here and not at WP:AIV). These groups of edits are also spaced out over months, so a different user warns the IP each time (eight times so far!). The user, unfamiliar with the IP's editing history, treats the old warnings as "expired" and simply issues another level 1 or 2 warning.
I believe this IP should be banned for a while. Unfortunately, there are probably many more like this one that haven't been caught yet. --Iiii I I I (talk) 09:29, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I spot checked these and yeah this is bad. Using false and misleading edit summaries to remove in most cases sourced descriptions to slant articles. spryde | talk 12:42, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Jesus Christ. Blocked for two years, since it looks like the IP is stable. charlotte 15:35, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you! Iiii I I I (talk) 19:08, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think this discussion is a good example of providing all the infomation needed to the admins to make the decision. If only everyone who complained here did the same. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:16, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you! Iiii I I I (talk) 19:08, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Jesus Christ. Blocked for two years, since it looks like the IP is stable. charlotte 15:35, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
Egl7, anti-Armenian behaviour
Egl7 indef'd for being here to argue instead of building an encyclopedia. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Egl7 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Egl7 clearly has bone to pick with Armenia, including dancing on the fine line of Armenian genocide denial, not to mention severe WP:CIR issues. As a Russian admin admit perfectly put it when they indeffed Egl7; "Since the participant clearly came to Misplaced Pages to fight, I have blocked him indefinitely, because with such edits one cannot expect constructiveness from him."
- Egl7 never tries to take responsibility for their actions, instead being upset and obsessing over that I didn't revert a random IP that added "Armenian" under "common languages" in an infobox almost two years ago , mentioning that 7 (!) times
- According to Egl7, having three things (out of 25) about Armenia on my userpage - being part of the WikiProject Armenia, being interested in the history of Greater Armenia, and opposing the denial of the Armenian genocide, means I support "Armenia's actions" , whatever that means. They never explained it despite being asked to, which leads me to the next thing.
- Here is this incredibly bizarre rant by Egl7 for me having stuff about Armenia on my userpage and not Azerbaijan, accusing me of anti-Azerbaijani sentiment and whatnot;
- Egl7 does not understand when someone is not interested in engaging in WP:FORUM whataboutism, instead resorting to WP:HARASS, first on my talk page , then an article talk page , then their own talk page . This random question about the Khojaly massacre appeared after I asked them if they denied the Armenian Genocide since they considered me having a userpage about it part of "supporting Armenia's actions". According to this well sourced Wiki section , the term "genocide" is a "fabrication" for the Khojaly massacre, which is "used to counter the narrative of the Armenian genocide."
- Dancing on the fine line of Armenian genocide denial, if not denying it
- Despite being blocked on the Russian Misplaced Pages for it, their first action here was trying the very same thing they were indeffed for ; changing "Nakhichevan" (Armenian spelling) to "Nakhichivan" (Azerbaijani spelling)
- I truly tried to have WP:GF despite their disruptive conduct and previous block, but this user is simply WP:NOTHERE. There also seems to be severe WP:CIR at hand, as they struggle understanding a lot of what I say, including even reading WP:RS, which I had to ask them to read 5 (!) times before I gave up. As seen in our long discussion , they also to struggle understand basic sentences/words, such as the difference between "official" and "common".
I'm not going to respond to Egl7 here unless an admin wants me to. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:31, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
HistoryofIran, anti-Azerbaijani behaviour
WP:BOOMERANG. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
@HistoryofIran clearly has bone to pick with Azerbaijan, including reverting my good-faith work which includes correction of arrangement of the "Today is part of" infobox following the country, in which, at present, the largest part of the territory of the Nakhchivan Khanate is located. @HistoryofIran is reverting back changes, saying that my https://en.m.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Nakhichevan_Khanate&diff=prev&oldid=1268162595 edit is not an improvement without any real reason and without offering any argument. Also they are stating that there is a restriction according to Misplaced Pages:GS/AA, while ignoring edits of other users. I asked them many times to open a discussion so both sides could offer different proposals which in turn would lead to a consensus. In response all my requests were ignored. Also they have been accusing me of having conflicts with other users and countries while I have never noted or mentioned any and they have been impolite to me all the time, while i have never been impolite or rude to them. I want to say that I am blocked on ru.wikipedia, again, because of no real reason(They are vandalizing and projecting their actions onto me) and now i'm even worried that en.wikipedia will do the same to me.
They are also dancing on the fine line of denying Khojaly massacre, if not denying it.
Thank You. Egl7 (talk) 15:03, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Boomerang this is a clearly retaliatory filing. I think Egl7 is WP:NOTHERE. Simonm223 (talk) 15:05, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Boomerang obvious retaliatory filling. Lavalizard101 (talk) 15:07, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- As a non-EC editor, you should not be discussing Armenia/Azerbaijan issues at all except for making specific, constructive edit requests on the relevant talk pages. Once you received notice about the restriction, none of your related edits were in good faith, and all may be reverted without being considered edit warring. And quite frankly, the diffs that HistoryofIran has presented about your behavior don't look great. Your behavior on Russian Misplaced Pages doesn't affect your rights on English Misplaced Pages, but since you brought it up, I have to agree that you were there and now here more to fight than to edit a collaborative encyclopedia. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 15:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- @CoffeeCrumbs tell me, please, if there is a restriction why are everybody's edits are ignored except mine? You are not doing justice. Egl7 (talk) 15:39, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Because the restriction is specific to people who do not have extended confirmed status. Simonm223 (talk) 15:41, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- i know that i'm being picky and can sound like a snitch, don't get me wrong, but, at least, i'm editing from an account while other users are editing from random IPs. How is it possible for a random IP to have an extended confirmed status? Egl7 (talk) 15:48, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- The person you created this obviously retaliatory report against is not an IP and does have EC status. The correct thing to do, the thing you should do if you want to enjoy any opportunity to continue participating in this project, is to immediately withdraw this complaint and commit to adherence with WP rules going forward. Simonm223 (talk) 15:57, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not taking about @HistoryofIran here. Look up the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Nakhichevan_Khanate&action=history. You can see that there are IPs, edits of which were ignored even if those edits have been done after the restriction had been set. This is what makes it unfair. By this logic my edits should've been ignored too. Egl7 (talk) 16:05, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- No IP has edited the page in question in nearly a year. You are complaining about a non-issue. signed, Rosguill 16:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- The restriction has been set much earlier than a year. Egl7 (talk) 16:13, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Right, but at ANI we deal with
urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.
The IP edits here are old news. Further, having now reviewed the page's last 5 years of history...out of 7 IP edits made, 5 were reverted almost immediately, 1 is arguably not covered by GS/AA (Special:Diff/1203058517), leaving exactly 1 edit that probably should have been reverted but wasn't (Special:Diff/1177447457, which added "Armenian language"). You'll notice upon minimal investigation, however, that HistoryofIran's most embattled edits to this page were to remove "Armenian language" from the article in July of 2023; it's rather disingenuous to accuse them of all people of turning a blind eye here. signed, Rosguill 16:15, 9 January 2025 (UTC)- This does not refute what I said above. Egl7 (talk) 16:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- There are actually 2 or more of them. I guess it's his duty to support both sides and remove or add information which is or is not necessary. Egl7 (talk) 16:29, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you're trying to say here at this point, but it also doesn't matter. HoI raised multiple valid concerns regarding the quality of your editing in an area that per our community guidelines, you should be intentionally avoiding. In response, you filed a retaliatory report and are now arguing technicalities that are tangential to the substance of HoI's initial report. The fact that you are arguing such trivial, irrelevant points is evidence against you in these proceedings. Your best course of action is to follow Simonm223's advice above. Failure to take that advice at this point is almost certain to end with you blocked. signed, Rosguill 16:43, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Right, but at ANI we deal with
- The restriction has been set much earlier than a year. Egl7 (talk) 16:13, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- No IP has edited the page in question in nearly a year. You are complaining about a non-issue. signed, Rosguill 16:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Is there a rule, that a non-EC editor can't report an incident? Egl7 (talk) 16:33, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not taking about @HistoryofIran here. Look up the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Nakhichevan_Khanate&action=history. You can see that there are IPs, edits of which were ignored even if those edits have been done after the restriction had been set. This is what makes it unfair. By this logic my edits should've been ignored too. Egl7 (talk) 16:05, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's not. However, someone making an inappropriate edit without being caught does not make your inappropriate edits into appropriate ones. There have been many successful bank robberies in history, but that doesn't mean I'm allowed to rob the bank next to my grocery store. You need to start focusing on how you conduct yourself, not on how others do, because right now, you appear to be headed towards a block. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 16:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I understand you. But i want to note that no matter how successful are the robberies, a lengthy criminal investigation will be launched. In addition, i want to say that i wasn't aware of those edits before I did mine. Egl7 (talk) 16:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- You did receive a warning on your talk page. Your conduct issues are not limited to violating ECP. You would be wise to heed the advice given in this thread from Simonm223 and Rosguill. The community does not have much patience for nationalist editing. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 16:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Is there a rule, that a non-EC editor can't report an incident? Egl7 (talk) 16:31, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:GS/AA,
The restriction applies to all edits and pages related to the topic area, broadly construed
. That includes complaints about other editors. Which you should know already, as you have been repeatedly warned about GS/AA and should have read that page carefully. signed, Rosguill 16:39, 9 January 2025 (UTC)- So Is there a rule, that a non-EC editor can't report an incident, which in my case is "HistoryofIran, anti-Azerbaijani behaviour"? I am asking this because you said that "The correct thing to do, the thing you should do if you want to enjoy any opportunity to continue participating in this project, is to immediately withdraw this complaint and commit to adherence with WP rules going forward". And still, what you said in this comment does not refute what I said above. Egl7 (talk) 16:50, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:GS/AA,
- Is there a rule, that a non-EC editor can't report an incident? Egl7 (talk) 16:31, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- You did receive a warning on your talk page. Your conduct issues are not limited to violating ECP. You would be wise to heed the advice given in this thread from Simonm223 and Rosguill. The community does not have much patience for nationalist editing. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 16:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I understand you. But i want to note that no matter how successful are the robberies, a lengthy criminal investigation will be launched. In addition, i want to say that i wasn't aware of those edits before I did mine. Egl7 (talk) 16:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- The person you created this obviously retaliatory report against is not an IP and does have EC status. The correct thing to do, the thing you should do if you want to enjoy any opportunity to continue participating in this project, is to immediately withdraw this complaint and commit to adherence with WP rules going forward. Simonm223 (talk) 15:57, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- i know that i'm being picky and can sound like a snitch, don't get me wrong, but, at least, i'm editing from an account while other users are editing from random IPs. How is it possible for a random IP to have an extended confirmed status? Egl7 (talk) 15:48, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Lists of everyone that has been sanctioned for GS/AA violations, or CT/AA violations more broadly, can be found at Misplaced Pages:General_sanctions/Armenia_and_Azerbaijan#Individual_sanctions and further at WP:AELOG under each year's Armenia-Azerbaijan (CT/A-A) section. Note that this only lists people who repeatedly ignored warnings and got blocked for it, simple reverts are not logged. I would encourage you to avoid getting your own username added to that list. signed, Rosguill 15:44, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Because the restriction is specific to people who do not have extended confirmed status. Simonm223 (talk) 15:41, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- @CoffeeCrumbs tell me, please, if there is a restriction why are everybody's edits are ignored except mine? You are not doing justice. Egl7 (talk) 15:39, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- All I see is Egl7 doubling down. I have already tried to tell them that there was nothing wrong with the IP edit they are fixiated on, and that it doesn’t excuse their unconstructice edits regardless. The fact that they were caught red handed in genocide denial and anti-Armenian conduct and then fruitlessly attempts to make me appear as the same with Azerbaijanis by copy-pasting part of my report and replace “Armenian” with “Azerbaijani” says a lot about this user. HistoryofIran (talk) 16:33, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- @HistoryofIran "There was nothing wrong"
- As @Rosguill said 1 is arguably not covered by GS/AA (Special:Diff/1203058517), leaving exactly 1 edit that probably should have been reverted but wasn't (Special:Diff/1177447457, which added "Armenian language").
- As I understand you were aware or now are aware of those edits done by those IPs what tells me that you admit that you ignored or are ignoring the edits that have been done after the restriction has been set and now you are still stating that there was or is nothing wrong with those IPs' edits. Egl7 (talk) 16:45, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- And we're done here. If you can read my comments here close enough to try to use them to make tendentious arguments at HoI, you should be able to understand that I already told you this is not even slightly appropriate. signed, Rosguill 16:55, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I endorse this block. Cullen328 (talk) 20:52, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- And we're done here. If you can read my comments here close enough to try to use them to make tendentious arguments at HoI, you should be able to understand that I already told you this is not even slightly appropriate. signed, Rosguill 16:55, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Yemen meh's unreferenced edits
I'm reporting @Yemen meh: for unreferenced edits. They've been told many times in the past to post references, and looking at their contributions page, they have done so many unreferenced edits in the last few days. Hotwiki (talk) 09:47, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also, just few days ago - this happened. Hotwiki (talk) 10:18, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
IP hopper repeatedly adding unsourced and incorrect information to UK Rail articles
Discussion moved from WP:AIV to avoid cluttering up that noticeboard with discussion.
There is a user at the 27.55.xxx.xxx range that is repeatedly adding unsourced and invalid information to UK rail articles. The primary problem is the addition of a Maximum Speed to steam locomotives - steam locomotives in the UK did not really have a formal maximum speed, so this parameter is not used in these circumstances. As the user is hopping between IPs, it's proving nearly impossible to leave adequate warnings on talk pages, and as noted at AIV a rangeblock would affect a large number of innocent good faith users. Is there a way forward here, or is it a case of whack-a-mole?
Diffs:
- 27.55.93.62 (talk · contribs) -
- 27.55.83.83 (talk · contribs) - &
- 27.55.79.100 (talk · contribs) -
- 27.55.70.101 (talk · contribs) - , &
- 27.55.68.32 (talk · contribs) - .
Cheers, Danners430 (talk) 10:30, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Seems the only answer is to continue playing w-a-m until our Thai friend gets bored. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 11:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've created an edit filter, Special:AbuseFilter/1335, to detect IPs in that range editing articles that contain {{infobox locomotive}}. I've set it just to log for the moment; let's see what it catches. — The Anome (talk) 12:31, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
Persistent addition of unsourced content by 78.135.166.12
78.135.166.12 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - Keeps adding unsourced content to articles, continued after final warning & hasn't responded to warnings. Examples of addition of unsourced content: 1, 2, 3, 4 (addition of content not in pre-existing source, Pixar not mentioned), 5. Waxworker (talk) 16:30, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
Persistent violation of established consensus on McLaren Driver Development Programme
OP has flounced. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:03, 11 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
McLaren Driver Development Programme is one of many motorsport-related articles that includes sections listing which racing championships drivers have won. Historically, these sections have only included season-long racing series championships, not simply the winners of notable races. However, Thfeeder, MSport1005, and Road Atlanta Turn 5 have persistently tried to list winning the Macau Grand Prix as a "title." I have addressed this and explained the consensus multiple times, and repeatedly asked for them to return to the page to the consensus and start a discussion about changing that consensus, but all have refused and have insisted persisted with continually reverting the page. MSport1005 specifically has engaged in edit warring and personal attacks as well. All I am asking is that the page be reverted to consensus, without the one single race included as if it is a season-long championship, and then we can discuss why or why not to add it. All have refused. I don't think this ever needed to be escalated to the admins but literally everyone else involved has refused to have a simple discussion about this. I really don't understand their behavior. Personally I believe this change would significantly impact dozens of articles and would require larger discussions at the WikiProject level, but again, it does not seem like others are willing to have this discussion. Lazer-kitty (talk) 17:36, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Comment: the relevant talk page discussion can be found here. No "personal attacks" were exchanged. Instead, Road Atlanta Turn 5 and I have tried to urge the user above to seek consensus peacefully instead of making threats and imposing their views. The user cites an "informal consensus" but has been unable to prove its existence.
- MSport1005 (talk) 17:59, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Lazer-kitty, this looks like a content dispute. The steps for resolving such disputes are listed at WP:DR. I think you would find it very difficult to pursue this dispute here, but first you would need diffs showing bad conduct by others, and your conduct would also be looked at. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:59, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Phil Bridger I mean, scroll up. The guy literally just attacked me and accused me of making threats and trying to impose my views, both of which are false. It was absolutely just a content dispute until they started behaving that way. Lazer-kitty (talk) 18:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Lazer-kitty, your second comment at Talk:McLaren Driver Development Programme#Macau was
First off, apologize immediately for your insults above. These are completely uncalled for.
There were no insults and such a rapid escalation of aggression is inexplicable. Forced apologies are worthless. Then, you described this routine and mundane content dispute as "vandalism" even though you presented no evidence of deliberate intent toobstruct or defeat the project's purpose
, which is required for a valid accusation of vandalism. It looks to me like you are being far too aggressive here, and so I recommend that you adopt a more collaborative attitude. Cullen328 (talk) 18:06, 10 January 2025 (UTC)- Yes, that comment was in response to
I kindly urge you to cut down your condescending tone and edit warring, or external measures could be taken.
You don't consider that insulting? I do. I was not being condescending, I sincerely tried my best to be polite, nor was I edit warring. Literally all I want to do is be collaborative and they all refuse. I have asked for collaboration numerous times! Lazer-kitty (talk) 18:08, 10 January 2025 (UTC)- No, that's not an insult. You're talking down to other editors, which can feel condescending to them. I strongly urge you to dial it back and engage in creating a new, solid consensus around this topic. — The Hand That Feeds You: 18:37, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, that comment was in response to
- Lazer-kitty, your second comment at Talk:McLaren Driver Development Programme#Macau was
- Phil Bridger I mean, scroll up. The guy literally just attacked me and accused me of making threats and trying to impose my views, both of which are false. It was absolutely just a content dispute until they started behaving that way. Lazer-kitty (talk) 18:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Reading through the talk page is pretty bizarre - Lazer-kitty is insisting their opinion is consenus against 3 editors who disagree with them. I know nothing about motorsport but to me this is evidence that consensus is against LK, not with them as they claim. I think this earns a trout for opening this filing, the misunderstanding of the concept of consensus, and for battleground behaviour - but there's nothing here that needs admin attention. BugGhost 🦗👻 18:30, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
Thanks to everyone involved for bullying off me this platform. Never in my life did I expect that 20 years of editing would end with being gaslit by multiple admins and editors. Really appreciate your efforts in killing this encyclopedia. My only hope is that one day someone forks Misplaced Pages into a new encyclopedia with competent oversight, i.e. people who can see through obvious trolling and bad faith actions, and who don't rely on aggressive tone policing to make their judgements. Lazer-kitty (talk) 19:22, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) The filer appears to have vanished and retired. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 19:57, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- As multiple people have pointed out, you are seriously overreacting. Your behaviour is completely disproportionate to the content dispute you are involved in. You only have yourself to look at there. If this is how you react to people disagreeing with you, you are the one with a serious problem. Tvx1 20:18, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
Engage01: ad hominem personal attacks and one against many
Engage01 (talk · contribs) has been arguing to include an incredibly lengthy quote in Palisades Fire (2025). Upon my removal of the quote and suggestion to bring it to the talk page, they've begun a large-scale argument that me and most other editors that disagree with the addition of the quote as lacking competence, not understanding quality, or one-word "wrong" replies. Consensus is clearly against them but instead of coming up with actual policy-based reasons for every other editor !voting in the poll they set up (all in favor of not having the quote) they've chose to accuse us of not understanding policy or not seeing that the individual in question is important in the matter enough to deserve a long quote. They haven't been around for long, and have gotten multiple warnings for personal attack-type language in the conversation. I've been asked by them to "remove myself from the conversation" and they suggested I was "learning while you edit" while not understanding WP:DUE. I don't have time to add any diffs (all the comments are still live) except for Special:Diff/1268631697, them blanking their talk page, and here a few minutes later, where they keep their argument at "I can't understand how editors can misapply "undue weight."". This could be a severe case of WP:IDONTHEARYOU with the blanking. I'm hoping whoever sees this can at least get them to cut out their personal attacks. Cheers. Departure– (talk) 19:16, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I thought I removed the quote first, but it was removed again by Departure. Nevertheless this user has made personal attacks on my User talk page as well. I posted two warnings here and here on their talk page but Engage01 just blanked them very quickly. I wish to WP:DROPTHESTICK but this user started a new section on my talk page (linked above) to argue about "undue weight" which is something I don't recall mentioning at all in this situation.
- I remember now. I moved the quote from the body of the article to inside the citation but I had a feeling that it was only a gradual stage before it would be fully removed by WP:CONSENSUS. Thank you for bringing this to the ANI. Kire1975 (talk) 19:26, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've pblocked them for one week from the article and its talk page for disruptive editing, personal attacks, incivility, and bludgeoning. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:40, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- The method of engagement at that talk page is really poor. I've closed the section now that the editor has been p-blocked, no need to continue to sink time into it. Daniel (talk) 20:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I know they're partially blocked from that page, but I went through their edit history and I found (1), (2), (3), (4), (5), (6), (7), (8) different diffs of them adding the quote in question into the article (at least 7 of which were after it had been removed), and I think that constitutes edit warring. They never got notice for violating 3RR but they very clearly did. Maybe the block from the Palisades Fire should be extended or expanded? I've seen worse sanctions for less disruption. Departure– (talk) 20:26, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- The method of engagement at that talk page is really poor. I've closed the section now that the editor has been p-blocked, no need to continue to sink time into it. Daniel (talk) 20:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
Problems with Pipera
Pipera blocked. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:55, 10 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Pipera (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I've listed some illustrative diffs below along with explanations where needed. I've tried to be concise but it's difficult at times to explain the issues. There are more problems I've got documented, but I tried to not overwhelm this filing.
I'm concerned that Pipera does not understand what wikipedia is for and what we do - their continual references to the fact that they are a descendant of the article subjects and that they know through their own research that historians or scholars are wrong, is a big problem and they have not taken explanations of what we do here (as opposed to a genealogical research site) on board. Their continual sourcing problems - removing sources, adding unsourced information, arguing that sites like WikiTree are reliable, arguing that they know better than the reliable sources, and, worst, the changing of sourced information to say something different than what the source actually says - all these are big red-flag issues. Explanations of how they have issues have been met with either no-engagement with the points raised or walls of text. I also have WP:CIR concerns as they seem unable to edit without formatting, grammar, and other issues.
As for a solution, I'm open to suggestions. A topic ban from medieval biographies would probably solve the current problem, but I'm not sure that will not just move the problem elsewhere. If someone would volunteer to mentor Pipera, that might work, but I've exhausted my good faith already in the last month, and it would need to be someone with a lot of patience, and I'm not sure the CIR issues won't just show up somewhere else.
- In a series of edits from 24 to 26 Dec 2024 at Ralph Basset Pipera changes sourced information to have it say something that the source does not quite say, adds information that is unrelated to the subject of the article, along with grammar issues. I pointed out the problems with these edits on the talk page here which got a series of replies that repeated parts of the article and frankly, I'm not sure what they meant to convey with it.
- In a series of edits on 31 Dec 2024 at Henry I of England, Pipera removes sources from sourced information, adds unsourced information, and generally mucks up the text and formatting. After being reverted by an editor and re-adding their edits, they post a long digression on the talk page. I documented the problems with their edits on the talk page, but they were never addressed.
- 2 Jan 2025 At William the Conqueror, Pipera adds a citation needed tag to an already cited sentence, one cited to the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography.
- On 4 Jan 2025 at Enguerrand II, Count of Ponthieu, Pipera changes Enguerrand's offspring from a daughter to a daughter and son, removing the sourced statement that Enguerrand had no male offspring, and changing his brother and successor Guy into a son instead. This is done while keeping the three sources that previously supported Guy as a brother, not a son. One of the attached sources is Musset p. 104, which can be accessed at the Internet Archive it says "Guy I of Ponthieu is a well-known figure who inherited the county after the death in battle of his brother, Enguerrand II, in 1053" See talk page where a discussion about another source that supports Enguerrand as having no male offspring is dismissed as "There are a number of updated versions the work" but without substantiating such a claim.
- In a series of edits on 6 Jan 2025 at Sibyl of Falaise Pipera copies an earlier section of the article into a new place without removing it at the older location so that now the article repeats the section starting "Katherine Keats-Rohan argues instead...". This series of edits also adds unsourced information and removes sourced information. I reverted the edits with the statement "remove repetition and restore sources to information" but was re-reverted with the edit summary "Undid revision 1267745167 by Ealdgyth (talk) sorry this is my family tree and I know what was placed here is correct". There are further edits to this article here and then a discussion on the talk page about what they said was a "will" of William de Falaise actually turns out to be a charter. I pointed this out on the talk page, and that got a flurry of replies on the talk page just don't make any sense to me. Maybe they are upset that some historians might think Sibyl was illegitimate? They keep saying things like "They state Sybil of Falaise might have been yet another b######d." which took me a bit to realize that they were censoring "bastard". Note that the article still in places calls this charter a "will" and says that "In the charter of William de Falaise, he bequeaths everything to his wife Geva." However, Pipera at Talk:Sibyl of Falaise#Marriage and Issue claims to translate the charter and their translation says nothing about William bequeathing everything to his wife - it's a standard gift-charter giving some property to a church, with his wife mentioned as also giving the property along with William. This raises serious issues about Pipera's ability to read and understand sources and use them appropriately.
- In a series of edits ending on 6 Jan 2025 Pipera adds unsourced information as well as a long series of genealogical descents to an article about a 12th-century nobleman, much of the information is not really related to the subject of the article.
- On 7 Jan 2025 at Richard de Courcy Pipera changes sourced information without updating the source, removing the "probably" from "probably was the son", and making it a categorical statement that Richard was the son of Robert de Courcy.
- 7 Jan 2025 at William de Courcy (died c. 1114) Pipera removes sources from information and adds unsourced information. I reverted with an edit summary of "Restore sources to information, no need for this heading, and we do not need a list here" but was re-reverted with the edit summary "with all due respect we have this everywhere in Misplaced Pages, further it adds clarity to the entry. In my opinion. Further, added the name of Williams wife Avice to the entry BTW she is the daughter of the Earl of Skipton her mother is Cecily de Rumily they are my 23rd Great Grandparents". I then attempted to discuss at the talk page here but this has been ignored.
- 9/10 Jan 2025 at Talk:Sibyl of Falaise - I reply here to a comment of theirs. Pipera reverts it with an edit summary of "Do not delete my tak page responses", but I did not delete any of their responses, I merely replied. Two edits later, they delete a whole section they had started, including the replies that I had made to them, pointing out problems, violating WP:REDACT.
- I've tried to avoid bringing this here, but I've reached the point where I cannot keep dealing with Pipera (talk · contribs). They continue to add unsourced and unrelated information to articles, refuse to take on formatting advice, continue to assert that they know better than the reliable sources in articles, and continue to post walls of text on talk pages that do not help with collaborative editing.
- I've listed some illustrative diffs below along with explanations where needed. I've tried to be concise but it's difficult at times to explain the issues. There are more problems I've got documented, but I tried to not overwhelm this filing.
- I'm concerned that Pipera does not understand what wikipedia is for and what we do - their continual references to the fact that they are a descendant of the article subjects and that they know through their own research that historians or scholars are wrong, is a big problem and they have not taken explanations of what we do here (as opposed to a genealogical research site) on board. Their continual sourcing problems - removing sources, adding unsourced information, arguing that sites like WikiTree are reliable, arguing that they know better than the reliable sources, and, worst, the changing of sourced information to say something different than what the source actually says - all these are big red-flag issues. Explanations of how they have issues have been met with either no-engagement with the points raised or walls of text. I also have WP:CIR concerns as they seem unable to edit without formatting, grammar, and other issues.
- As for a solution, I'm open to suggestions. A topic ban from medieval biographies would probably solve the current problem, but I'm not sure that will not just move the problem elsewhere. If someone would volunteer to mentor Pipera, that might work, but I've exhausted my good faith already in the last month, and it would need to be someone with a lot of patience, and I'm not sure the CIR issues won't just show up somewhere else.
- In a series of edits from 24 to 26 Dec 2024 at Ralph Basset Pipera changes sourced information to have it say something that the source does not quite say, adds information that is unrelated to the subject of the article, along with grammar issues. I pointed out the problems with these edits on the talk page here which got a series of replies that repeated parts of the article and frankly, I'm not sure what they meant to convey with it.
- That ha been reolved,
- In a series of edits on 31 Dec 2024 at Henry I of England, Pipera removes sources from sourced information, adds unsourced information, and generally mucks up the text and formatting. After being reverted by an editor and re-adding their edits, they post a long digression on the talk page. I documented the problems with their edits on the talk page, but they were never addressed.
- The page dealing with his children has yet to be resolved.
- 2 Jan 2025 At William the Conqueror, Pipera adds a citation needed tag to an already cited sentence, one cited to the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography.
- That has been resolved.
- On 4 Jan 2025 at Enguerrand II, Count of Ponthieu, Pipera changes Enguerrand's offspring from a daughter to a daughter and son, removing the sourced statement that Enguerrand had no male offspring, and changing his brother and successor Guy into a son instead. This is done while keeping the three sources that previously supported Guy as a brother, not a son. One of the attached sources is Musset p. 104, which can be accessed at the Internet Archive it says "Guy I of Ponthieu is a well-known figure who inherited the county after the death in battle of his brother, Enguerrand II, in 1053" See talk page where a discussion about another source that supports Enguerrand as having no male offspring is dismissed as "There are a number of updated versions the work" but without substantiating such a claim.
- In regard to this matter see: https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Adelaide_of_Normandy#Comtes_de_Montreuil which no one has replied to.,
- In a series of edits on 6 Jan 2025 at Sibyl of Falaise Pipera copies an earlier section of the article into a new place without removing it at the older location so that now the article repeats the section starting "Katherine Keats-Rohan argues instead...". This series of edits also adds unsourced information and removes sourced information. I reverted the edits with the statement "remove repetition and restore sources to information" but was re-reverted with the edit summary "Undid revision 1267745167 by Ealdgyth (talk) sorry this is my family tree and I know what was placed here is correct". There are further edits to this article here and then a discussion on the talk page about what they said was a "will" of William de Falaise actually turns out to be a charter. I pointed this out on the talk page, and that got a flurry of replies on the talk page just don't make any sense to me. Maybe they are upset that some historians might think Sibyl was illegitimate? They keep saying things like "They state Sybil of Falaise might have been yet another b######d." which took me a bit to realize that they were censoring "bastard". Note that the article still in places calls this charter a "will" and says that "In the charter of William de Falaise, he bequeaths everything to his wife Geva." However, Pipera at Talk:Sibyl of Falaise#Marriage and Issue claims to translate the charter and their translation says nothing about William bequeathing everything to his wife - it's a standard gift-charter giving some property to a church, with his wife mentioned as also giving the property along with William. This raises serious issues about Pipera's ability to read and understand sources and use them appropriately.
- See: https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Sibyl_of_Falaise#Vague_history_of_Sybil_being_the_Niece_of_Henry_I_of_England. And https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Sibyl_of_Falaise#Article_Concerns!
- In a series of edits ending on 6 Jan 2025 Pipera adds unsourced information as well as a long series of genealogical descents to an article about a 12th-century nobleman, much of the information is not really related to the subject of the article.
- On 7 Jan 2025 at Richard de Courcy Pipera changes sourced information without updating the source, removing the "probably" from "probably was the son", and making it a categorical statement that Richard was the son of Robert de Courcy.
- Richard was the son of Robert de Courcy, and his mother was named Herleva de Bernieres. His father was Balderic 'the Teuton' and an unnamed granddaughter of Geoffrey, Count of Eu . He was one of nine children bound by this relationship.
- He actually is his son.
- 7 Jan 2025 at William de Courcy (died c. 1114) Pipera removes sources from information and adds unsourced information. I reverted with an edit summary of "Restore sources to information, no need for this heading, and we do not need a list here" but was re-reverted with the edit summary "with all due respect we have this everywhere in Misplaced Pages, further it adds clarity to the entry. In my opinion. Further, added the name of Williams wife Avice to the entry BTW she is the daughter of the Earl of Skipton her mother is Cecily de Rumily they are my 23rd Great Grandparents". I then attempted to discuss at the talk page here but this has been ignored.
- 21:25, 7 January 2025 Pipera talk contribs 5,529 bytes +76 Undid revision 1268026529 by Ealdgyth (talk) with all due respect we have this everywhere in Misplaced Pages, further it adds clarity to the entry. In my opinion. Further, added the name of Williams wife Avice to the entry BTW she is the daughter of the Earl of Skipton her mother is Cecily de Rumily they are my 23rd Great Grandparents. undo Tag: Undo
- 9/10 Jan 2025 at Talk:Sibyl of Falaise - I reply here to a comment of theirs. Pipera reverts it with an edit summary of "Do not delete my tak page responses", but I did not delete any of their responses, I merely replied. Two edits later, they delete a whole section they had started, including the replies that I had made to them, pointing out problems, violating WP:REDACT.
- Proceedings by Somersetshire Archaeological and Natural History Society Publication date 1919
- https://archive.org/details/proceedings65some/page/8/mode/1up?q=Sibyl+
- * Eyton, in his Domesday Studies, styles this " an old legend (we can call it no more) of the Welsh Marches We cannot imagine how Henry I. could have such a niece as this Sibil ; nor can we say how Sibil de Falaise was related to William de Falaise, or why she or her descendants should have succeeded to any of his estates." Pipera (talk) 21:00, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support block
topic banpossibly per nom. I've been watching the complete palaver that is William Martin, 1st Baron Martin—"his daughter Joan of which I am a descendant"!—with askance. Their talk page comments are near incomprehensible, and malformed and they seem to delight in... misunderstanding. Repeatedly. If as Ealdgyth suggests, the TB proves insufficient, the this can be revisited, but in the meantime, it's worth a shot.I had an edit-confliuct posting this, due to Pipera posting above. And incidentally proving the actual point. The reply is bizarre; they seem to have duplicated wholesale Ealdgyth's original post. They are completely incapable of communicating in a manner that is not disruptive. SerialNumber54129 21:10, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Changing my suggestion to a full block; their replies demonstrate they either don't understand what Misplaced Pages is for, and are unwilling to learn, or simply don't care. Either way, NOTHERE applies in spades. SerialNumber54129 21:53, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Talk:Henry I of England - Misplaced Pages https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Henry_I_of_England Henry I of England
- In regard to this matter, I was restoring an earlier version of the article. listing the children legitimate, illegitimate and mistress to the children section of the article. it was not my work it was the work of others that came here circa 2006 -7 that placed this here, and it was removed.
- I added:
- Baldwin, Stewart (2002). The Henry Project: The Ancestors of King Henry II of England. The American Society of Genealogists.
- I was told that this was an unreliable source when the work is on the American Society of Genealogists website, Baldwin is a writer of historic books. He is a valid source of information, further his work in the reference section shows some of the sources that are in the Misplaced Pages articles.
- I was told that WikiTree is a user generate source, Misplaced Pages is also a user generated source.
- Additionally, I was told that Alison Weir was not acceptable in the article.
- == Using these within a Misplaced Pages Article ==
- Broken up into:
- There is no rule here stating that these cannot be used within any part of a Misplaced Pages entry.
- You also removed Alison Weir as a reference, explain to me why she was removed? Pipera (talk) 18:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Regards Pipera (talk) 21:17, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Finally, other genealogical sites like WikiTree have attempted to place the children of Henry I in the right place and manner, in other incidents globally people are now adding Henry I as the father of Sybil de Falaise based on the article here at Misplaced Pages. She is not the niece of Henry I whichever way this is stated, in relation to William Martin https://en.wikipedia.org/William_Martin,_1st_Baron_Martin#References this has been resolved, and yet on my talk page I went into great detail about the usage of the tag in two other Misplaced Pages articles.
- Also, I am academically qualified to read source materials like:
- Robert of Torigni or Torigny (French: Robert de Torigni; c. 1110–1186), also known as Robert of the Mont (Latin: Robertus de Monte; French: Robert de Monte; also Robertus de Monte Sancti Michaelis, in reference to the abbey of Mont Saint-Michel), was a Norman monk, prior, and abbot. He is most remembered for his chronicles detailing English history of his era.
- https://entities.oclc.org/worldcat/entity/E39PBJxhgfHcDqQdqcGCG7gh73.html and Normannorum Ducum, Orderic Vitalis and William of Jumièges read their works and apply them to any historic context as I have in other genealogical sites as well as read Parish Registers in the 1500's and apply this to research.
- Pipera (talk) 21:31, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please block this person now, any admin who sees this. I have lost count of the number of Misplaced Pages policies which they are intent on ignoring, and if swift action isn't taken this discission will be longer than the rest of this page put together. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:39, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:46, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree. --Kansas Bear 21:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Because I came to Misplaced Pages to extend articles, add new information, rolled back and not one academic response. I have been given personal opinions of which I have taken on board. I have not gone into iny article with the intent to add incorrect information to the articles. I have been adding here since 2001, and decided to come into these articles to expand them. That is my intention to do so. In the case of Henry I of England I was adding to the Family and children section and added additional links I have not entered any other part of the article.
- In the case of Sybil of Falaise there is no way she can be Henry I of England nice as the records of his brothers and sisters state so. I have raised these concerns in the talk page, see Talk:Sibyl of Falaise - Misplaced Pages https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Sibyl_of_Falaise as I see it. Pipera (talk) 21:56, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:46, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please block this person now, any admin who sees this. I have lost count of the number of Misplaced Pages policies which they are intent on ignoring, and if swift action isn't taken this discission will be longer than the rest of this page put together. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:39, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- They have been blocked. GiantSnowman 22:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry, I got here late. Thanks to Ealdgyth for bringing this issue here, and to all who participated. After an initial attempt at dealing with Pipera's disruptions and chaotic editing/communication pattern, I must admit I soon walked away. Thanks those with more patience than I for trying longer. Eric 22:48, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks to Ealdgyth for the thread. I participated sufficiently to see this was real problem, but didn't act decisively. BusterD (talk) 22:49, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
An IP who gave me a fake 4im warning
Issues addressed. Signature can be handled on their Talk. No longer a matter for ANI Star Mississippi 14:59, 11 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
There was a IP address (177.76.41.247) who
- Called me blind in an edit summary after i reverted his edit
- trouted me and gave me a 4im warning
I think this is the appropriate place to take this report.
Thanks, Tenebre_Rosso_Sangue, ULTRAKILLing Vandals! Call for Medic! My Stats! 22:37, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Well, a 4im warning was certainly an overreaction and the edit summary could have been nicer, but your revert was obviously wrong. The IP has since self-reverted the warning. No admin action is needed here, but you should read IP edits more carefully before reverting them, and consider changing your distasteful signature. Spicy (talk) 22:45, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Distasteful? What do you mean? it is simply a videogame refrence to Ultrakill.
- And i did admit fault for the bad edit (and for my unnecessarily silly first response).
- Thanks, Tenebre_Rosso_Sangue, ULTRAKILLing Vandals! Call for Medic! My Stats! 22:50, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- However, @Spicy I was gonna change it due to me changing my username soon. So, in the meantime, i will change it. Tenebre_Rosso_Sangue, ULTRAKILLing Vandals! Call for Medic! My Stats! 22:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- It would be great i you could remove all of the extraneous phrases and change it so that it is just your username and a link to your User talk page. Liz 00:05, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- I fail to see the need to jump all over Tenebre over their signature. There are a number of other editors and admins who have similarly goofy signatures and jumping down one editor's throat seems petty. Insanityclown1 (talk) 02:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- It would be great i you could remove all of the extraneous phrases and change it so that it is just your username and a link to your User talk page. Liz 00:05, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- However, @Spicy I was gonna change it due to me changing my username soon. So, in the meantime, i will change it. Tenebre_Rosso_Sangue, ULTRAKILLing Vandals! Call for Medic! My Stats! 22:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
Community block appeal by Drbogdan
DECLINE It is clear based on the input here and at their Talk before the discussion was carried over, that no consensus to unblock is going to emerge at this time. It is recommended that Drbogdan take on the feedback provided before future unblocks are requested Star Mississippi 15:05, 11 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Drbogdan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) This user has asked for a review of their community block enacted as a result of a discussion here six months ago. Just FYI for context the original title of the section on their talk pages was "Request to restore editing per WP:STANDARD OFFER as suggested" and several users involved in the previous discussion were pinged, and a block review began there before I shut that down and informed them it needed to be done here, so there's going to be some volume of comments right away, in addition to the lengthy text of the request itself. Beeblebrox 23:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
CLOSING ANI CONCLUSIONS - MY (overdue perhaps) REPLIES Somewhat new to all of this (been busy in other wiki-areas over the years - see below), but seems it's been over 6 months since the start of my indev block (start date = July 6, 2024) - perhaps WP:STANDARD OFFER may now apply I would think - and hopefully, WP:AGF and WP:NPA (direct and/or indirect) apply here as well of course. Thanks. ::::I closed this quickly a few minutes ago since the latest comments have been fairly plain personal attacks, rather than discussing the substance of the complaint and appropriate action. It took me a while to organize my thoughts and copyedit myself - there's a lot to unpack here.Thank you for your comments and conclusions. As before, I've been very busy recently with mostly real-world activities (but also with some earlier online activities - 1+2+3 and others) . Sorry for my delay in not responding earlier of course. Hopefully, my presentation here is appropriate and entirely ok (I'm really new to this wiki-area). ::
::Here we have a science expert mass-adding content based on low-quality popular science churnalism to our science articles, expecting that other editors will review it and determine whether to improve or remove it, and a complaint from the editors who have been cleaning up after them supposedly for many years. This discussion can be summed up with a quote from the competence is required essay: "A mess created in a sincere effort to help is still a mess that needs to be cleaned up." We excuse this behaviour from very new editors who don't yet understand that Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia with standards for inclusion and not a collection of links. The community expects an editor with 90,000 edits to understand what content should be in an article and what constitutes a reliable source, especially for an editor who is also a subject matter expert.Mostly untrue claims. Certainly none intentional. As before, claims have been exaggerated (also noted by others Here and elsewhere) and/or interpretable (with no or few supporting diffs) (along with selection bias - ie, selected 10 or so articles out of hundreds of edited articles?) (source). Such claims, perhaps to seem more credible than they really may be, seem to have been presented under cover of apparent WP:POLICIES of one sort or another. In addition, the importance of WP:IAR, in some relevant instances, have been downplayed and/or dismissed outright. For one example of possible related contention, the very long-time (many years) List of rocks on Mars article, originally a very enriched (helpful/useful) version (seemingly at least), and justified by WP:IAR, is Here, but is currently (without discussion or WP: CONSENSUS) changed to a less helpful/useful article instead. Seems like WP:MOS rules may overrule WP:IAR? Seems so at the moment in this instance. At least until there's a better resolution of the issue through further discussion and WP:CONSENSUS I would think. In any case, lessons learned here of course. ::
::Drbogdan's replies to deserved criticism in this thread have been dismissive of the problem at best, if not signalling that they believe their academic credentials excuse them from needing to improve. The community has historically rejected this approach, and rejects it here. Since Drbogdan seems not to understand that they are making a mess and seems uninterested in learning how not to continue making messes, the community's consensus is that Drbogdan is blocked indefinitely.Not true. Never said or thought this. Ever. Not my way of thinking. I've always tried to be open to improvement. Seems the better road generally. After all, nobody's perfect. Everyone could benefit from improvement of one sort or another I would think. My academic (and related) credentials have been presented only to describe my qualifications to edit Misplaced Pages, which, I currently understand, may be ok. Please let me know if otherwise of course. Nonetheless, my current UserPage is Here. (My earlier UserPage, if interested, is Here). ::-- ::
::Separately from this close, I also *must say* that their habit - eccentric, maybe? - of hacking together *long run-on strings of comments* - interspersed - as they are - with *forced pause* breaks and sprinkled with self-aggrandizing - and off-topic, yes - links to their *achievements* makes it - as others have said here - quite frustrating to converse with them. All the worse that the vast majority of their comments of this sort do not substantively reply to the comments they are left in response to.Not ever true in my edits of mainspace articles. May be somewhat true on some talk-pages only. In any case, lessons learned here as well. Any specific rules broken in my editing have been entirely unintentional. As far as I currently know, all edits that may have been of some issue earlier have been completely corrected some time ago. I currently know of no real rules broken that may not be a matter of unsettled opinion. If otherwise, please specify rules that may have been an issue (and related diffs of course), and suggested ways that I may further improve my related edits going forward. I expect to adjust accordingly (and appropriately) as needed at the first opportunity of course. Thanks. ::::I'm also going to leave links here to Misplaced Pages:Expert editors, Misplaced Pages:Relationships with academic editors, and Misplaced Pages:Expert retention. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 8:18 am, 6 July 2024, Saturday (6 months, 6 days ago) (UTC−8) Thanks again for all your comments and conclusions. I should note that I have numerous Wiki-contributions/edits, including Misplaced Pages (98,481 edits+306 articles+70 tiemplates+30 userboxes+2,494 images+and more); as well as many Wiki-contributions/edits to WikiCommons; WikiData; WikiQuotes; WikiSimple; WikiSpecies; Wiktionary; other Wikis and other related Wiki programs. ADD: Drbogdan (talk) 10:10, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
Thanks for reviewing my request. May have been a bit bold (WP:BEBOLD) on some of my earlier edits and presentations. I sincerely apologize in these instances if overdone of course. Nonetheless, some complaints seem interpretable to me (a "mess" to some may not be one to others for example; "quality" of editing may be another example). The standards on Misplaced Pages are not set in stone so-to-speak, but keep evolving - hence, "WP:BEBOLD" and "WP:IAR", and similar phrasing and notions, seem to be an essential part of the DNA of Misplaced Pages, and helpful, I would think, to the better development of Misplaced Pages as a world-class source of quality knowledge and information. This may be even more important these days given the apparent recent removal of "fact-checking" on some online websites. Re any apparent copyvio: none ever intentional, and all completely solved long ago afaik. Hope this helps in some way. Incidentally, I entirely agree that my earlier user page needs a version trimmed down to the very basics, and without any material whatsoover that may possibly be understood as promotional. I have no problem doing that of course. Seems I may have been too WP:BEBOLD with that (and related presentations, including those involving references and the like). In any case, thank you for reviewing my request here. I hope my replies (noted above) help in some way to restore my en-Misplaced Pages editing. Stay Safe and Healthy !! - Drbogdan (talk) 12:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Prior talk page discussion
| prior discussion copied from User talk:Drbogdan. Beeblebrox 23:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC) |
|---|
|
Strong oppose: DrBogdan has never acknowledged their destructive editing tendencies or willingness to be overly promotional in weighting their contributions to wikipedia, a trait was has continued well into their CBAN with promotional-ish replies here (diff) and his edits to his userspace largely being to maintain promotional links. He continues above in lionizing the volume of his edit history without regard for quality and linking, inexplicably, his facebook, livejournal, and wordpress pages. I and other editors have spent a lot of time since their ban cleaning up the daily updates and image galleries added persistently to articles. Since his ban, I did more cleaning at Commons and this resulted in the deletion of 78 promotional images and selfies not contributing to the project. In this process I learned that Drbogdan has had a history of uploading images with copyright issues, as well. The meat of it, though, has been how he absolutely ruined entire science articles that have required complete rewrites to bring up to standard. I have maintained a list of this process since it’s very time consuming. So far I’ve had to rewrite (with help from others in places) Curiosity (Rover),List of rocks on Mars, Ingenuity (helicopter), Jezero (crater), Animal track, Bright spots on Ceres, and Aromatum Chaos, in addition to the cleanup done before his CBAN. All of these were victims of indiscriminate image galleries added to articles and daily updates on mission status. If we look at one I still haven’t gotten to, like Mount Sharp, it’s still an absolute mess of images smeared all over it. The intent of this list isn't to be any kind of gravedancing, but rather Drbogdan's major contributions have been so consistently low-quality that it's necessary to manually review every single article he's been heavily involved in to remove indiscriminate galleries. Drbogdan’s defence here and in the past has been a mix of the Shaggy defense and blaming my “persistence” at the ANI, despite my initial arguments at ANI being opposed to a ban. I think it’s pretty clear at this point that Drbogdan is motivated to edit, but unwilling to acknowledge any of the shortcomings in their editing process and I don’t actually see a planet in which their presence here is a positive given the timbre of this unban request. Especially considering it was so obviously going to be posted bang-on the six month mark. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 12:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Thanks for reviewing my request. May have been a bit bold (WP:BEBOLD) on some of my earlier edits and presentations. I sincerely apologize in these instances if overdone of course. Nonetheless, some complaints seem interpretable to me (a "mess" to some may not be one to others for example; "quality" of editing may be another example). The standards on Misplaced Pages are not set in stone so-to-speak, but keep evolving - hence, "WP:BEBOLD" and "WP:IAR", and similar phrasing and notions, seem to be an essential part of the DNA of Misplaced Pages, and helpful, I would think, to the better development of Misplaced Pages as a world-class source of quality knowledge and information. This may be even more important these days given the apparent recent removal of "fact-checking" on some online websites. Re any apparent copyvio: none ever intentional, and all completely solved long ago afaik. Hope this helps in some way. Drbogdan (talk) 15:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
|
- Shouldn't this be on WP:AN, not WP:ANI? also, this is weird. This section, and this section only, has a pause between typing the "]]" at the end of links when I hit it fast. Not other sections on the page, and not the edit summary box either... - The Bushranger One ping only 23:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Tech issue appears to start after the "Separately from this close" quote above. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:00, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- I put the discussion here because this is where the block was decided. Seems like it should go back to the same place?
- I've had a really long couple of days but if there are still technical problems here tomorrow I'll look into it. Beeblebrox 03:53, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think unblock requests usually go on AN, but that's fair. And as a further note, the "delay" between the "]]" typing gets longer the further I go down the page when editing that section. Editing just this subsection, it's just fine, so there's something in that quote or just below it that is making Firefox go pear-shaped. It's very weird. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:12, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Tech issue appears to start after the "Separately from this close" quote above. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:00, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
Further Discussion of Community block appeal by Drbogdan
Any replies from Drbogdan to further comments here may be copied over. Beeblebrox 23:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose I'm not sure what that stream of consciousness is trying to say but it goes nowhere near addressing the issues resulting in the ban. DeCausa (talk) 23:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose I'm not seeing anything in the Wall of text that shows the editor understands why they were banned and how their behaviour needs to change. Lavalizard101 (talk) 23:54, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose I see nothing here that suggests Drbogdan understands the problem and is willing to take positive steps to avoid it. Rather the opposite. XOR'easter (talk) 00:20, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose unblock request does not address the reason for their ban. And the content of the request just goes to show why the ban should be continued and why they are not of benefit to the community and are just wasting other editor's time. Canterbury Tail talk 01:06, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose fails to address the reason the ban was given, nor give any adequate assurances that the behavior that resulted in the ban will not be an issue going forward.Insanityclown1 (talk) 02:14, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose: The standard offer requires that banned users promise to avoid engaging in the behaviors that led to their ban. I do not see any such promise in this unblock request, so this appeal should be struck down. HyperAccelerated (talk) 06:12, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose. The unblock request provides neither adequate specifics to convince me that the previous ban was improperly applied, nor any apology nor promise to do better regarding the behavior that led to the ban. —David Eppstein (talk) 07:53, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose - The unblock request largely shows the same issues they were blocked for - self promo (links to facebook, wordpress and livejournal), not taking on community advice (all responses are "nuh-uh, not true"), and difficulties communicating (formatting is a mess and responses are only tangentially related to what they are quoting). Their defense is mainly "I never did anything that bad", not the required acknowledgement of the problem and indication of improval. In the unblock request they specificly use this version of the List of rocks on Mars article as an example of a good contribution - which has
The name Jazzy, for example, was taken from a girl named Jazzy who grew up in Grand Junction, Colorado, USA. Her father worked for NASA and contributed to the findings and naming of the rocks.
unsourced in the second paragraph. BugGhost 🦗👻 09:55, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
Unconstructive editing by Wolverine X-eye
I am posting this here because, among other concerns of continued disruptive editing, I believe that this user's actions are impacting the quality and integrity of the GAN process. I’ve looked at this for long enough and tried to aid where possible, but it seems that @Wolverine XI is unwilling to change their behaviour on this website, hence why I saw fit to bring this here.
They have passed several articles through GAN over the past few months that exhibit many edits in a short period (numbering into the hundreds), often paired with unexplained removal of information. These absurdly high edit counts clog up page histories and are not exclusive to their GAN targets either, as can be seen in this three-month-old discussion on the user’s talk page from back when I first noticed this ‘unusual editing style’. Some examples from around this time follow below, although I should add that this editing pattern has not changed:
Wolverine has been asked multiple times to try and reduce their edit counts so that page histories remain useable, and despite saying they will, have refused to take any actual action in this regard. One can see this pattern repeated over and over on their contributions page.
Sadly, high edit counts with minimal change are the least of the issues present here. Most recently, Wolverine passed Fennec Fox, but after closing and reopening the GAN himself in the middle of an active (and not strictly positive) review by another user. A new review was started by another user within a few days, and while they did acknowledge the existence of the second review, nothing was done about its improper closing and only a few sentences were added to the article between the two reviews (which can be found here and here respectively)
In many places where editors don’t immediately agree with Wolverine, he turns to insults, personal attacks and otherwise inappropriate comments. A non-exhaustive list of examples follows below:
- Under ‘Your talk page’, accusing another editor of inappropriately handling a discussion with a minor (the other user was, in fact, not a minor). Example 1
- Fennec fox GAN Example 1, Example 2
- List of pholidotans merge proposal Example 1, Example 2
- Narwhal talk page Example 1
- Own talk page Example 1
The user has also shown an unwillingness to put effort into article improvement when requested in the review processes, and an unwillingness to put effort into finishing reviews they start. Again, a non-exhaustive list of examples can be found below.
- Own talk page, starting and then not finishing two GA reviews (https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Wolverine_X-eye/Archive_2#Inactivity_during_reviews) and drive-by nomination of the World War I article, a bit of a while back when compared to other examples in this case (6 months). https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Wolverine_X-eye/Archive_2#Drive-by_nomination
- After being advised to do a thorough check on all the citations in the narwhal page (see the closing comments on review four, Wolverine opened a peer review for the article four days later stating that they ‘need to know where the article's source-to-text integrity is at’, indicating a fundamental lack of knowledge about the state of the article that he had, at this point, attempted to promote to FA four times in five months. In this same review, he also tried to get others to do a source review for him or make a peer review spot-check count in place of a spot-check at the next FAC.
I hope that a satisfactory conclusion can be reached, and thank you for your time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Morrison Man (talk • contribs) 00:29, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't plan on getting involved in this, except to say that my October comment that you linked to is a follow up. The original is from June and can be found higher up on that archive page at User talk:Wolverine X-eye/Archive 2#GA nomination of Charles De Geer. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 00:48, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hi, The Morrison Man, let me address this promptly. So your first paragraph talks about the high number of edits I make to GAN pages. Well, I don't necessarily see that as a problem because you're the only editor who has made complaints about this, and if I may, I'm by no means the only editor who exhibits such behavior, so it's not at all clear to me why you're targeting me on this. Now regarding the 3 articles you listed, those were the articles that you brought to my attention in that discussion, and since then I've not repeated the behavior. The Fennec Fox incident is not an issue IMO. The editor in the first GAN clearly stated that they think the article was not up to GA-standards and that I should re-nominate it. Seeing that they were new to GAN and that they happened to be inactive at the time, I decided to help them close the nomination as that was their intention, but they didn't seem to know how to follow through with that. In Example 1, I read the whole discussion and it was pretty clear the editor was a minor. Sure, the talk page owner happened to talk to two people, one a minor, the other not, but they clearly spent more time with the minor talking about irrelevant stuff that aren't wiki-related. The editor even admits that they were in fact talking to a minor. The Fennec fox GAN examples are not personal attacks. They're just criticism. There's a difference. About Pholidota: I got a bit heated after Elmidae insulted and made hostile comments towards me. Yeah, that was a pretty contentious discussion overall. The Narwhal talk page link is not a personal attack or a insult, rather it's simply telling the IP to leave me alone as they were annoying me with those pings. I wanted to be as blunt as possible. The last link is just me explaining to a new editor why I reverted their edit. I said I didn't want to have the conversation again because if you look through the archives, you'll see that we had that exact discussion, but with a different article, before. I didn't think it was gonna happen again, and I sure didn't want it to happen for a third time, so I let the user know. Your last part talks about me not putting effort in my nominations and reviews. Well, I'm not the only editor who struggles to finish reviews, and I'll admit that sometimes I bite off a little more than I can chew. I did finish one of those reviews though. I would also state that I've made over 30 reviews, and out of those 30, I failed to complete maybe six of them. World War I was a drive-by nom, I'll admit, didn't realize that at the time, but that's the only case where I've unwittingly made a drive-by nom, so...We reach the end of your comment, and regarding your remarks about the FAC situation, well all I can say is that I needed insurance before I made another nomination, as the last two noms failed for sourcing issues. I was not confident about my scanning of the article's sourcing, so I needed a source review to see if the sourcing issues were still evident. I did scan a large portion of the article's sourcing but I just needed that extra insurance. Yep, that should be it. Wolverine X-eye (talk) 07:10, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- The fennec fox edits are absolutey casting aspersions.
Is this all about the message I left on your friend's talk page? You don't do much reviewing and judging by this review you also don't seem to be an experienced reviewer. This review has been unfair and your judgment on multiple aspects are off by a long shot
is WP:ASPERSIONS. AlsoI decided to help them close the nomination as that was their intention, but they didn't seem to know how to follow through with that.
- you do not close your own GANs. If you start it, you do not close it. Full stop.The Narwhal talk page link is not a personal attack or a insult
- no, sorry, it is indeed a personal attack. WP:CIVIL is one of the Five Pillars, it is not optional and you seem to spend a lot of time tap-dancing on or over the line of it. I suggest you reconsider your approach in many areas to maintain a civil, collaborative environment. - The Bushranger One ping only 08:10, 11 January 2025 (UTC)- @The Bushranger: I made that comment based on a comment they made here. I also took into consideration the fact that they reviewed my GAN as their very first review less than 24 hours (if I'm not mistaken) after nomination. And so I'd say that's my evidence for the comment. I apologize if this is not enough. Regarding the Narwhal bit, I didn't intend to make the comment a personal aattack. I intended to make it clear to the IP that I didn't want them to annoy me with those pings. I could have handled the situation better, I agree. But what I found annoying was that they attacked me on the basis of a YouTube video that discusses how I wrongfully reverted the creator's edit, only to later realize my mistake, rectifying it accordingly. Nevertheless, I will definitely take your words above into consideration. Wolverine X-eye (talk) 09:01, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- The fennec fox edits are absolutey casting aspersions.
- Hi, The Morrison Man, let me address this promptly. So your first paragraph talks about the high number of edits I make to GAN pages. Well, I don't necessarily see that as a problem because you're the only editor who has made complaints about this, and if I may, I'm by no means the only editor who exhibits such behavior, so it's not at all clear to me why you're targeting me on this. Now regarding the 3 articles you listed, those were the articles that you brought to my attention in that discussion, and since then I've not repeated the behavior. The Fennec Fox incident is not an issue IMO. The editor in the first GAN clearly stated that they think the article was not up to GA-standards and that I should re-nominate it. Seeing that they were new to GAN and that they happened to be inactive at the time, I decided to help them close the nomination as that was their intention, but they didn't seem to know how to follow through with that. In Example 1, I read the whole discussion and it was pretty clear the editor was a minor. Sure, the talk page owner happened to talk to two people, one a minor, the other not, but they clearly spent more time with the minor talking about irrelevant stuff that aren't wiki-related. The editor even admits that they were in fact talking to a minor. The Fennec fox GAN examples are not personal attacks. They're just criticism. There's a difference. About Pholidota: I got a bit heated after Elmidae insulted and made hostile comments towards me. Yeah, that was a pretty contentious discussion overall. The Narwhal talk page link is not a personal attack or a insult, rather it's simply telling the IP to leave me alone as they were annoying me with those pings. I wanted to be as blunt as possible. The last link is just me explaining to a new editor why I reverted their edit. I said I didn't want to have the conversation again because if you look through the archives, you'll see that we had that exact discussion, but with a different article, before. I didn't think it was gonna happen again, and I sure didn't want it to happen for a third time, so I let the user know. Your last part talks about me not putting effort in my nominations and reviews. Well, I'm not the only editor who struggles to finish reviews, and I'll admit that sometimes I bite off a little more than I can chew. I did finish one of those reviews though. I would also state that I've made over 30 reviews, and out of those 30, I failed to complete maybe six of them. World War I was a drive-by nom, I'll admit, didn't realize that at the time, but that's the only case where I've unwittingly made a drive-by nom, so...We reach the end of your comment, and regarding your remarks about the FAC situation, well all I can say is that I needed insurance before I made another nomination, as the last two noms failed for sourcing issues. I was not confident about my scanning of the article's sourcing, so I needed a source review to see if the sourcing issues were still evident. I did scan a large portion of the article's sourcing but I just needed that extra insurance. Yep, that should be it. Wolverine X-eye (talk) 07:10, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would prefer not to get involved in an ANI discussion, but here we are. I will add my statement of also having noticed Wolverine XI's less than mature behavior at the List of pholidotans merge, and the time they- without making significant improvements- nominated Fishing cat for Good Article three times in a row before it passed (and without really addressing the comments of the two reviewers who failed it).
- Unfortunately, I feel it necessary to point out that Wolverine's frequent username changes make looking into their past activity difficult. But since his first(?) time here at AN () his fast editing and unwillingness to learn has been a problem, and unfortunately Wolverine is currently on his last chance. It's been a year since he was unblocked and he still hasn't learned, and I no longer have much hope that he will. SilverTiger12 (talk) 15:11, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
KirillMarasin promoting medical treatments and "conversion therapy"
KirillMarasin (talk · contribs)
I think we have two related problems with KirillMarasin. First up, he promotes and seeks to legitimise the pseudo-medical practice of "conversion therapy" (diff1, diff2, diff3 Yes, that really is a medical claim being sourced to Reddit!) and secondly he adds medical claims to other articles which are either unreferenced or which are improperly referenced to sites selling supplements (diff5, diff6, diff7 and diff8). Attempts by multiple editors to warn him have been unavailing and I read this as both a personal attack and a highly offensive suggestion that I practice "conversion therapy" on myself. Beyond that, this is a clear and sustained case of WP:POV and WP:IDHT. --DanielRigal (talk) 02:51, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think I promoted anything though. I didn't say it was good or bad, I was trying to be neutral. KirillMarasin (talk) 15:28, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Even if my edits are not high-quality, the article on conversion therapy has a lot of gaslighting, saying time and time again there are no treatments, when the opposite is true. KirillMarasin (talk) 09:54, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Not according to science baaed RS which is all that matters from Misplaced Pages's PoV Nil Einne (talk) 10:02, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- What is RS? KirillMarasin (talk) 12:47, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Good question! You were supposed to know that in order to edit Misplaced Pages. tgeorgescu (talk) 12:57, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's short for "Reliable Sources". You can learn about it at WP:RS @KirillMarasin. Nakonana (talk) 15:19, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you, I've already read it. KirillMarasin (talk) 15:24, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- What is RS? KirillMarasin (talk) 12:47, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Not only are your edits not of high-quality, at least two of your sources are garbage, and you're edit warring at that article as well. You need to step away from that article. Isaidnoway (talk) 10:30, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why would you even consider 4Chan to be a legitimate source for anything, let alone a science/medicine-based topic? That, in of itself, is a major issue. King Lobclaw (talk) 11:57, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Not according to science baaed RS which is all that matters from Misplaced Pages's PoV Nil Einne (talk) 10:02, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just looking at the three conversion therapy edits mentioned by DanielRigal, this one makes a medical claim without citing any sources at all and this one cites reddit and 4chan for medical claims. Finally, this one cites a paper in the Journal of Neurosurgery for the claim that
some methods of conversion therapy were working
. The paper in question in fact says thatwhile Heath claimed that the patient had a full recovery and engaged exclusively in heterosexual activities, other sources argued that the patient continued to have homosexual relationships
. Any of these diffs on their own would be totally unacceptable. Additionally, a glance at Special:History/Conversion therapy shows that KirillMarasin not only added these claims once, but reinstated them after their removal was adequately explained. e.g. here they add the "some methods of conversion therapy were working" claim, here the addition is reverted with the edit summary explaining that the source does not support the addition, here KirillMarasin reinserts the text with the edit summaryIt doesn't need deleting, I'll try to edit it to better reflect the article.
When somebody reverts an edit because it contradicts the cited source, you need to fix that error before reinstating it. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 10:56, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Would a WP:TOPICBAN on WP:GENSEX prevent further inappropriate editing? Note this is a question, I'm not familiar with WP:GENSEX and it may very well not have any bearing or may be the wrong approach here. --Yamla (talk) 11:45, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think there's a CIR issue as well. The slipping of sources from 4chan into a contentious topic seems either like overt trolling or a serious lack of understanding of sources.King Lobclaw (talk) 11:55, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- I tested the treatments on myself before writing. KirillMarasin (talk) 15:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Anecdotal evidence does not belong in an encyclopedia. Only scientific evidence qualifies as a reliable source that can be quoted. Nakonana (talk) 15:23, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd still like to WP:AGF, even though I'm beginning to have my doubts. I think this is a CIR issue first and foremost, with a mixture of POV-pushing and lack of understanding of WP:NPOV, WP:RS and WP:MEDRS. Since they are here, and reading this page, and haven't edited since they started following this conversation, I think @KirillMarasin: should read those policies first, before they attempt to edit again. If they continue with their current editing pattern, though, a WP:TOPICBAN would be entirely appropriate. — The Anome (talk) 12:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- The editor has been directed to WP:MEDRS in the past, before the most recent spate of unsourced or promotionally-sourced edits, so it does not seem to have had any positive effect. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 15:43, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- I tested the treatments on myself before writing. KirillMarasin (talk) 15:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Not all of the problem edits have been WP:GENSEX; the ones listed by the OP aa diffs 5 through 8 are on sexual health matters not under that GENSEX guideline. A more general medical topic ban, widely construed, may be more appropriate. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 14:18, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think there's a CIR issue as well. The slipping of sources from 4chan into a contentious topic seems either like overt trolling or a serious lack of understanding of sources.King Lobclaw (talk) 11:55, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:NQP, WP:CIR. I can assume good faith, as this editor presumably grew up in a culture where widespread homophobia is normalized (referring, of course, to 4chan), but these edits are repulsive. I would expect that an editor of 15 years would be aware of policies like WP:RS, let alone WP:FRINGE. Editors who like to tweak numbers and facts without citations can wreak a lot more disruption than just inserting insane nonsense on controversial articles, which is easily spotted and reversed. –RoxySaunders 🏳️⚧️ (talk • stalk) 15:15, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- I tested the treatments on myself before writing. And why do you use strong language on my edits instead of trying to stay neutral? KirillMarasin (talk) 15:21, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
KirillMarasin (talk · contribs) has been here for more than a decade. It's hard to believe that suddenly, he doesn't know that 4Chan isn't a usable source - and in a topic like this, too. Signs are pointing to NOTHERE. King Lobclaw (talk) 14:13, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm sorry for posting low-quality content here. I will adhere to the rules in the future. KirillMarasin (talk) 15:12, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
History of disruptive COI editing
I didn't wanted to go through this, but I'm done being patient. There appears to be a long history of disruptive COI editing by Armandogoa on his father's article Carlos Alvares Ferreira. He usually edits this page after every few months or so, and seems to add unreferenced content as per his latest edit done on the page here . I had many of his edits reverted myself.
I also did place a COI warning on his talk page over a year ago . But he seems to not understand it this way. His father is an active politician, and considering our WP:BLP policies, I think this editor should be blocked to prevent any other controversial or peacock material added in the future. Rejoy(talk) 07:54, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
Disruptive Sumeshmeo
Sumeshmeo has got 5 warnings together from December 2024 till now, to stop changing content without a reliable source but continues to do so ignoring and being non-responsive to warnings. Sumeshmeo got 3 same warnings in 2023. I do not think that Sumeshmeo is here to improve Misplaced Pages pages. RangersRus (talk) 10:55, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- In future, it helps if you provide diffs when making a report so people are better able to assess it. Having looked at Sumesheo's contribs, here is a recent egregious example where not only do they change the text of the article, they also change the title of the source cited so it appears to support that claim (and break the url in the process). In fact as far as I can tell, every single edit they have made so far this month is to increase the claimed gross takings of a film, without ever providing a source or explanation, in most cases explicitly contradicting the existing cited source. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 11:49, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
Uncivil behavior
@Jasper Deng: has been continually bludgeoning a conversation about a page rename, casting unsupported aspersions, acting uncivilly, and biting newcomers (me).
Teahouse
During a lively discussion about a page rename, it occurred to me that I might be able to improve this encyclopedia by starting a conversations that could POTENTIALLY lead to future guidance or policy regarding how to name natural disaster articles. So I went to the teahouse to ask how I can start a conversation about that.
They followed me to the teahouse and:
- Bludgeoned me
- casted aspersions
it is frowned upon to post about an ongoing decision making discussion elsewhere (unless it is to raise serious misconduct concerns) as it could be considered WP:CANVASSING, particularly when the incipient consensus is leaning against your position
You'll note that my post in the teahouse was asking how to start a conversation about potential future policy improvements, not at all about the ongoing conversation. And even if it were, the practice is quite common on noticeboards, why would it be any different in the teahouse such that it would be WP:CANVASSING?
In the process they said Don't overthink this
to me.
To which I replied Please do not patronize me by suggesting I am overthinking this, and please don't WP:BLUDGEON me by responding to every comment I've made to someone else regarding this.
- They then willfully disrespected me by again saying in part
I'm afraid you are overthinking it
- tried to intimidate me because of their number of edits and made continued, unsupported, exaggerated claims of misconduct against me
Don't cast the WP:ASPERSION of "willful disrespect".
Talk page
Back on the talk page, they:
- Once again bludgeoned the process by replying to my vote
- Accused me of moving the goalposts
- Bludgeoned another editor as well
- Collapsed their bludgeoning with a close note that they agree (with themself?) that their comments were
more than necessary after taking a second look
Just recently I noticed they continued to reply to others' votes that went against their POV
So I warned them to stop bludgeoning on their talk page
Rather than replying, they deleted it from their talk page. In the edit note, they:
- Again tried to intimidate me because of their status as an experienced editor
As someone who is still rather inexperienced you should not be attempting to warn experienced editors like me.
- Cast aspersions and threatened me with a block
Your comment here is grossly uncivil and if you ever comment like this again you will be the one considered for a block.
They then left a message on my talk page:
- Casting aspersions and threatening me with a block again
Posting that WP:SHOUTING on my talk page is grossly uncivil and unwarranted and will get you blocked the next time you do that.
- And again attempted to intimidate me because of their status as an experienced editor
But you are in absolutely no position to attempt to enjoin me from further participation in that process. You do not understand the policies and guidelines you're trying to warn me about; don't pretend that you do (especially with respect to WP:OWN).
- And again, cast more unsupported aspersions in an uncivil manner
Coming to my talk page unprompted and without the other user's involvement is crossing the line to you harassing me. Cut it out.
This has been an upsetting experience for me. Perhaps I am too sensitive to edit on wikipedia.Delectopierre (talk) 12:19, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- After leaving making this post, I noticed @Jasper Deng also left a comment about me, casting even more aspersions in a thread I started on @Cullen328's talk page that had absolutely nothing to do with @Jasper Deng:
This user needs mentorship as they are flying too close to the sun. The comment I just removed from my talk page and the one I left them at User talk:Delectopierre#Stop suggests that I am not the most effective one to convey that to them. My participation in the RM isn't that unusual and I consider their comments highly condescending and, now, aggressive to the point that I will want to see them blocked if they do it again.
Delectopierre (talk) 12:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC)- Both users are right: Jasper Deng when they say, "I am not the most effective one to convey that to them", and Delectopierre when saying, "Perhaps I am too sensitive". Phil Bridger (talk) 14:01, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- My impression, based on this brouhaha: you are easily offended, but at the same time keen to tell off others. Bad combination. While Jasper Deng dislikes being harrangued on his talk page, but at the same time tacks unrelated complaints about you onto conversations not involving him. Bad combination. From the unassailable heights of my own moral perfection, I suggest you both simmer down and get back to editing. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 14:07, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
Review of an article deletion
The correct venue for this is WP:DRV. Black Kite (talk) 14:27, 11 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hello, I will like to request a review on the deletion of the article on Prisca Abah Theirson (talk) 14:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Category: